View Full Version : The Medieval Scenario


Haig
Feb 29, 2012, 01:24 PM
Medieval: Grow your medieval kingdom into one of the great nations of Renaissance Europe, fending off outside invasions from Mongols and Ottoman Turks and fighting the religious wars of the Crusades and Reformation!

My history knowledge about medieval era isn't that great, but I'm interested in this scenario and how it gives some clues from new Civs etc.
So I'd like to know:

About which century this scenario might take place? Isn't medieval era somewhere in 1000 - 1500 AD, I might be a bit wrong too! :D

I know that Ottomans were stopped to the gates of Vienna, could it give hint of an Austrian Civ? What other Civs might be included that would fit the bill ?
(of course there's always "scenario only" Civs)

guczy
Feb 29, 2012, 01:33 PM
The medieval era is 476-1492, renaissance is ca. 1200-1500. I think Hungary will probably be in the scenario as it was the stopgap between the turks and the rest of Europe, although most of the fighting took place in the XVI. century.

AbsintheRed
Feb 29, 2012, 01:41 PM
Yep, Austria isn't that fitting, but Hungary seems perfect for the scenario
Not just because of the long struggle with the Ottomans, the Mongol invasions (unfortunately :/) and a couple of the Crusades are also very much connected to Hungary

Art Grin
Feb 29, 2012, 01:41 PM
If it features the Crusades and the Reformation, then it should be from 1000-1600 A.D. maybe even 1650 if they want to squeeze in the 30 years war.

I believe that Austria would make some sense as a civ in this scenario. They were important during the Turkish Wars and they were a fierse enemy of the Reformation. Apart from that we have a Vistorian-era scenario and Austria was one of the Great Powers of the 19th century. The chances of them being included in the Expansion pack are high.:king:

AbsintheRed
Feb 29, 2012, 01:54 PM
If it features the Crusades and the Reformation, then it should be from 1000-1600 A.D. maybe even 1650 if they want to squeeze in the 30 years war.

Yeah, I would also put the scenario between 1000-1600

I believe that Austria would make some sense as a civ in this scenario. They were important during the Turkish Wars and they were a fierse enemy of the Reformation. Apart from that we have a Vistorian-era scenario and Austria was one of the Great Powers of the 19th century. The chances of them being included in the Expansion pack are high.:king:

They weren't that important in the medieval period, and they were "only" important against the Ottomans in the late 17th century
So I stand to my point, they doesn't really deserve a place in this Medieval scenario

On the other hand, I most certainly agree, they would be great for the Victorian-era scenario!

Louis XXIV
Feb 29, 2012, 02:03 PM
The timeframe for Middle Ages and Renaissance vary greatly depending on the perspective. There also certainly wasn't a clear cut between the two. I would suggest either the fall of Constantinople or the end of the Hundred Year's War as the end of the scenario.

As for the beginning, I personally would not use the fall of Rome. The political boundaries were shifting way too much. I've seen Charlemagne, but the same problem presents itself.

Somewhere after 1000 AD is good. Starting with the rule of William in England is easy (so 1066).

mitsho
Feb 29, 2012, 02:22 PM
Judging from the description I guess one should not take it quite so historically. The Description above says 1) Crusades 2) "Invasion" Mongols 2) "Invasion" Ottomans 3) Reformation (Wars). This of course is a huge timeframe, extremely diverse territories and involved civs and the focus shifts constantly. The Ottomans f.e. only fight Byzantium and it's really a stretch to call that Middle Ages. The Reformation "Wars", which I guess either refers to the 30 years war (far far away from Middle Ages) or to the inner tumults experienced in various nations (France f.e.). (btw. I always heard the definition of Early MA 600-900, High Middle Ages 900-1250, Late Middle Ages 1250-1500).

So it's a huge mess to make one consistent scenario. Therefore I'd rather guess that they made it oversimplified. Three of the above can be summaried with Religion and thus I guess that the scenario will focus, explain and show the Religion feature (, just as the Steampunk scenario will have an espionage focus). Gameplay > Realism.

As we don't know how religion works, it's really difficult to predict the scenario.

Haig
Feb 29, 2012, 02:42 PM
I've been thinking about them adding Sweden as a new Scandinavian Civ to the game, wouldn't they fit that sort of late-medieval setting too?

AbsinteRed and others, just out of interest, if Hungary would be released as a proper Civ, what could be a possible unique unit or famous leader? I've enjoyed paprikas food and spas of Budabest but don't know their history that well.. ;)

Louis XXIV
Feb 29, 2012, 02:43 PM
It would fit it as of 30 Years War, yeah. However, what makes you think the civs in scenarios will be the same ones in game? Do people think they're adding Victorian Sci-fi Civs?

Haig
Feb 29, 2012, 02:54 PM
It would fit it as of 30 Years War, yeah. However, what makes you think the civs in scenarios will be the same ones in game? Do people think they're adding Victorian Sci-fi Civs?

Yeah I true there will be scenario-only Civs too, but I also think that the scenarios, at least Medieval and Rome, are for introducing new Civs.

I think maybe couple of yet unannounced Civs appear on Medieval scenario.

Louis XXIV
Feb 29, 2012, 03:00 PM
Well, if there were a strong correlation between civs and scenarios, a Rise of Rome scenario would make more sense than a Fall of Rome scenario so as to include Carthage.

mitsho
Feb 29, 2012, 03:35 PM
Sweden is really not a medieval civ though. Their time to shine is around the 30 years wars and afterwards, hundred years and more later than every single time definition found in this thread. But yes, they could fit in.

But as my guess is that we will get a really simplified scenario (see the explorer scenario of the Spain/Inca DLC), they will not really be part...

blackcatatonic
Mar 01, 2012, 05:36 AM
The mention of the Crusades makes me curious about the possibility of a third Middle-Eastern/Islamic Civ (the Ayyubids led by Saladin? although that was a dynasty rather than a civilisation), but that's probably erring on the side of hopeful rather than likely.

Also, I know the idea of the Holy Roman Empire has been argued against convincingly elsewhere, but a pan-European medieval scenario is crying out for Charlemagne. And we did have the HRE in CIV...

guczy
Mar 01, 2012, 09:41 AM
I've been thinking about them adding Sweden as a new Scandinavian Civ to the game, wouldn't they fit that sort of late-medieval setting too?

AbsinteRed and others, just out of interest, if Hungary would be released as a proper Civ, what could be a possible unique unit or famous leader? I've enjoyed paprikas food and spas of Budabest but don't know their history that well.. ;)

Well the most obvious UU for Hungary would be a Hussar, although i have no idea which unit it would replace, as there are already a lot of knight replacements, and Hungary wasnt exactly using them instead of them, and the second choice, the cuirasser, is coming too late. The UB (or possibly an UI) could be the Végvár, a castle (or if UI a fort) replacement which produces gold.

For leader Hungary could have I. Szent István (Holy Stephen I.) with some kind of religious UA (name could be "Land of the Virgin Mary"), or Matthias Corvinus with either a cultural or a militaristic UA, representing the Black Army. For the cultural UA i have no idea, there are already a lot of them in the game, but for the militaristic UA i could imagine something connected to militaristic CS-s (the Black Army was a mercenary army, one of the finest of its time), for example:"Hungary gets units more often from mil. CS-s than others, and the unit received will always be an UU of another nation"

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 09:49 AM
For scenario purposes, I suspect they can use the Arabs for the Abbasids (or Fatamids or Ayyubids) and Songhai for the Almoravids/Moors (alternatively, the Almohads). The Moors are not going to be in the main game. However, they did add their capital, Merrekech, as a City-State.

In short, I think the Moors had the best chance of being added to the game, but they're going to be a City-State not a full civ. I hope there is a fourth Islamic civ (Ottomans, Arabs, Songhai currently), but I think the best chance is Indonesia/Majapahit.

MaximusK
Mar 01, 2012, 09:59 AM
A latter Middle Ages/Renaissance contest that involves western/eastern Europe and the Levant.

large map (includes all of Europe and Mediterranean basin)
-plenty of room for land wars and naval battles (think Lepanto)
-contest over control of Italy/Balkans/Anatolia.
-great city-states (Venice/Naples/Malta, etc)

Russians as Ivan!

The scenario has to have plenty of room for religion, new city-states, etc.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 10:11 AM
I strongly suspect the scenario will split eastern and western churches, at a minimum. I could see a City-State to represent Armenia. Either the Rus/Russia as a Civ or a Kiev City-State. I forget when Hungary converted, but there's a nice history of fighting between Eastern and Western churches over influence.

AbsintheRed
Mar 01, 2012, 11:09 AM
I strongly suspect the scenario will split eastern and western churches, at a minimum. I could see a City-State to represent Armenia. Either the Rus/Russia as a Civ or a Kiev City-State. I forget when Hungary converted, but there's a nice history of fighting between Eastern and Western churches over influence.

Sources vary, but Hungary converted to Christianity in 1000 or 1001 AD

AbsintheRed
Mar 01, 2012, 11:16 AM
I've been thinking about them adding Sweden as a new Scandinavian Civ to the game, wouldn't they fit that sort of late-medieval setting too?

AbsinteRed and others, just out of interest, if Hungary would be released as a proper Civ, what could be a possible unique unit or famous leader? I've enjoyed paprikas food and spas of Budabest but don't know their history that well.. ;)

Well the most obvious UU for Hungary would be a Hussar, although i have no idea which unit it would replace, as there are already a lot of knight replacements, and Hungary wasnt exactly using them instead of them, and the second choice, the cuirasser, is coming too late. The UB (or possibly an UI) could be the Végvár, a castle (or if UI a fort) replacement which produces gold.

For leader Hungary could have I. Szent István (Holy Stephen I.) with some kind of religious UA (name could be "Land of the Virgin Mary"), or Matthias Corvinus with either a cultural or a militaristic UA, representing the Black Army. For the cultural UA i have no idea, there are already a lot of them in the game, but for the militaristic UA i could imagine something connected to militaristic CS-s (the Black Army was a mercenary army, one of the finest of its time), for example:"Hungary gets units more often from mil. CS-s than others, and the unit received will always be an UU of another nation"

I agree with the UU and the UB/UI, the best choices are Huszar and Vegvar
IIRC I also suggested the same in one of the other threads previously

I also agree with your leader suggestions, I. Istvan (997-1038) and Hunyadi Matyas (1458-1490) are our most wellknown kings.
a couple other good suggestions: III. Bela (1172-1196) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bela_III), Nagy Lajos (1342-1382) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajos_I_of_Hungary), and IV. Bela (1235-1270)
(Here is the kingdom of I. Lajos with all the vassal/subject states and personal unions:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Louis_role.jpg)
My personal favourite is Hunyadi Matyas (1458-1490) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunyadi_Matyas) (Matthias Corvinus), and probably the most widely known Hungarian King overally, so I would go with him

Bela III is much less known - even in Hungary - but actually was one of the greatest hungarian rulers of the Arpad-house
A few highlights:
"Béla was one of the most powerful rulers of Hungary and he was also one of the most wealthy monarchs of Europe of his age. Béla disposed of the equivalent of 23 tonnes of pure silver per year. This exceeded the income of the French king (estimated at 17 tonnes) and was double the receipts of the English Crown. He was a powerful ruler, and his court was counted among the most brilliant in Europe."
"His remains were confidently identified by archeologists during late 19th century excavations at the ruined cathedral of Székesfehérvár where the Árpád monarchs had been crowned and buried. Béla's exceptional height, as documented by contemporary sources, rendered the identification certain. Based on the examination of his skeleton, he must have been over two metres tall, a really outstanding height at that time."
"Through his mother, Béla descended from Harold II of England (whose descendants had been dispossessed as a result of the Norman Conquest). Through his son, Andrew II, Béla was an ancestor of King Edward III of England. As a result, all subsequent English and British monarchs could claim descent from Harold II."

Pouakai
Mar 01, 2012, 11:20 AM
I strongly suspect the scenario will split eastern and western churches, at a minimum. I could see a City-State to represent Armenia. Either the Rus/Russia as a Civ or a Kiev City-State. I forget when Hungary converted, but there's a nice history of fighting between Eastern and Western churches over influence.

This brings up an interesting point, will there be scenario-specific religions?

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 11:55 AM
This brings up an interesting point, will there be scenario-specific religions?

I wouldn't be surprised, just a matter of changing the symbol and the name
... Now if they had scenario specific Beliefs that would be a bit more complex.

So I would think
Catholicism
Orthodox
Protestant*
Islam (possibly Sunni/Shiite split*)
possibly Judaism

*These are unless there is a default mechanism in the religion model for that to happen (ie through enhancements.. and possibly different enhancements)

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 11:58 AM
This brings up an interesting point, will there be scenario-specific religions?

I don't see why not.

Although I suspect they won't bother with the Fall of Rome to have Arian Christians, Germanic pantheon, Roman Christian, Sassanians, etc., but they might. It would be a good attention to detail and actually was vitally important to this point in history (Theodoric persecuted Christians not because he was a pagan, but because he followed a different sect of Christianity).

Sources vary, but Hungary converted to Christianity in 1000 or 1001 AD

OK, if my theory is right and we'll start in 1066, that'll be a bit too early.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 12:05 PM
I don't see why not.

Although I suspect they won't bother with the Fall of Rome to have Arian Christians, Germanic pantheon, Roman Christian, Sassanians, etc., but they might. It would be a good attention to detail and actually was vitally important to this point in history (Theodoric persecuted Christians not because he was a pagan, but because he followed a different sect of Christianity).



OK, if my theory is right and we'll start in 1066, that'll be a bit too early.

Well it doesn't need to be exact. you can start at 1000 AD (for nice numbers) and assume that England is already Norman, and Hungary is not converted yet (but there are missionaries ready to go)
(depending on what you want to model)

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 12:14 PM
Yeah, they could fudge the timeline at the beginning. Gloss over the fighting between the Danes, Normans, and Saxons over England and just assume that's been resolved (rather than have a separate Norman civ, which would be very awkward).

MadDjinn
Mar 01, 2012, 12:19 PM
Yeah, they could fudge the timeline at the beginning. Gloss over the fighting between the Danes, Normans, and Saxons over England and just assume that's been resolved (rather than have a separate Norman civ, which would be very awkward).

Given that there's already a scenario for that time period, I doubt they'd double it up.

Anyone look at the actual time periods for when some of the listed things happened? Real events, not broad time 'eras'. Might give a clue as to 'when' the scenario starts.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 12:36 PM
First Crusade was end of the 11th Century. I think 30 years after the Norman Conquest of England.

The reason I like the late 11th Century is the Kingdoms that existed for the rest of the Middle Ages are more or less established at this time. it's not entirely true (Spain is tricky), but it's better than earlier, when Italy had Lombards and a bunch of other Kingdoms. Northern Europe would be Visigoths, Arabs, Byzantines, etc. France and Germany would be three Kingdoms not two, with Burgundy in the middle. England was either Danish, Saxon, or Norman.

By 1070, things have cleared up significantly. You lose the early Middle Ages, but the famous parts of the Middle Ages are yet to come.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 12:38 PM
Yay Wikipedia

Crusades
1074 at earliest, 1095-1099 for First Crusade

Ottoman invasion
1265 cities began falling (although the Seljuks started conquering in 1067)

Mongol Invasion
1237 (start attacking Rus)

Reformation Wars
1517 (95 Theses)-1648 (Treaty of Westphalia)

chazzycat
Mar 01, 2012, 12:40 PM
please please please let the 30 years war be included!!

such an interesting conflict. "underrated" I guess you could say, if that's appropriate when discussing wars.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 12:50 PM
I don't think most people consider the 30 Years War to be the Middle Ages. However, if the Reformation is included from beginning to end, it will include the entire 30 Years War (up to Westphalia).

mitsho
Mar 01, 2012, 01:39 PM
I would love to have a 30 years war scenario. But in combination with a Sweden DLC-civ or something else, but separate. I don't think it can really be represented on a whole-European map where Germany is one player and where the scenario spans 600 years.

chazzycat
Mar 01, 2012, 01:41 PM
probably true, good points. Maybe separate would be better.

nokmirt
Mar 01, 2012, 11:11 PM
I would put it from 1000-1643. This would mark the end of the tercio formation (which by this point evolved moreso under Gustavus Adolphus, than it did under the Spaniards. Simply because he made the formations smaller and more mobile.), which were replaced by musket regiments after the battle of Rocroi in 1643. From a military standpoint this could be used as the dividng line between Renaisscance and the the Age of Enlightenment. Even better may be using 1066-1643. Beginning the campaign with the battle of Hastings and ending with Rocroi. 1066 is usually used as the dividing line between the end of the dark ages and early medieval era.

Morningcalm
Mar 02, 2012, 12:59 PM
It would be nice if there was unique medieval era music for this, or some kind of playlist edit so that we don't hear Beethoven while fighting the Mongols. Will Firaxis do this? Who knows? I'm hoping these 3 scenarios are more substantial and complex than the previously released scenarios.

Ian7
Mar 03, 2012, 08:22 PM
I'm just hoping for us to be able to play a Poland/Austria/Hungary/Somewhere in that general area Civ.

Yes I know I haven't posted in months.

Rob (R8XFT)
Mar 04, 2012, 12:14 AM
This brings up an interesting point, will there be scenario-specific religions?

I reckon there will be. Looking at the various incarnations of Civ, the "official" scenarios are often a lesson in what's possible modding-wise and how to do it. Therefore, we'll be shown how to mod religion via at least one of the scenarios.

Louis XXIV
Mar 04, 2012, 07:32 AM
The Medieval scenario is almost certain to have religion. Everyone knows religion played an important role.

I'm curious if the Fall of Rome scenario will have it. I'm going by the Civ3 scenario, but there's quite some variety. You have the Eastern and Western Empires that are Roman Christian (I wouldn't quite split them into Catholic and Orthodox). You have the Celts who were also Christian. You have the Sassanian Persians who are Zoroastrian. You have the Huns that are, whatever the Huns were. You have the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, and Vandals (I believe) who were Arian. You have the Anglo-Saxons, which had a Germanic/Nordic religion. Then, if you have the Franks, who would be either Arians or Roman Christian (they went back and forth before settling on Roman Christian).

aluelkdf
Mar 05, 2012, 09:21 PM
The medieval scenario is going to have lots of religion. It's probably the time in history when people where the most religious. And you also have the crusades going on. I hope religion is somewhat customizable the way the policies are. I don't want it to become to dominant in the game either. I don't mind knowing religion is there, and being aware of it while playing. But I don't want to spend all my time micromanaging religion, and wasting hammers on building missionaries and churches when I need to be building armies and industry.