View Full Version : Great Admirals' Special Ability?


Minifish
Mar 01, 2012, 12:40 PM
So far in Civ V, every great person has had some sort of special ability - Great Artists can build landmarks, Great Engineers can build manufactories, Great Generals can build citadels etc.

As well as presumably providing a positive combat modifier for nearby ships, what do you think the Great Admiral's ability will be?

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 12:45 PM
Someone suggested a Seafort last week. That seems like a fine plan to me, but it would have to be on land adjacent to the sea.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 12:46 PM
So far in Civ V, every great person has had some sort of special ability - Great Artists can build landmarks, Great Engineers can build manufactories, Great Generals can build citadels etc.

As well as presumably providing a positive combat modifier for nearby ships, what do you think the Great Admiral's ability will be?

Build Coastal Fortress. ?Can be built in neutral territory, allows ships inside it to heal as if in friendly territory? damages enemy ships within distance 2. (can't be entered by enemy land units if a ship is present). Ships get a bonus to defense.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 01:04 PM
I'd also say Coastal Fort. Built on land tile adjacent to sea inside your territory. Harms naval units. Basically, it would work exactly like a Citadel, but against ships.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 01:06 PM
I'd also say Coastal Fort. Built on land tile adjacent to sea inside your territory. Harms naval units. Basically, it would work exactly like a Citadel, but against ships.

As a bonus... it could be able to act like a Canal. (allow ships to enter land tile without building city)

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 01:26 PM
Well, historic coastal forts were not ports. I wouldn't mix functions like that.

Montov
Mar 01, 2012, 02:25 PM
I'd also say Coastal Fort. Built on land tile adjacent to sea inside your territory. Harms naval units. Basically, it would work exactly like a Citadel, but against ships.

Does a citadel next to coast tiles no damage to enemy ships?

I think an Admiral would provide additional Food to coast tiles, because the other Great People already provide Gold, Culture, Production & Science. I'm just not sure what to call such an improvement. :p

But I'm really hoping it can construct a canal on land, allowing ships to pass trough.

CYZ
Mar 01, 2012, 02:49 PM
I think canals as a Great Admiral improvement would be really great. It would limit the amount of canals you can build and make them expensive in a way. So for the canal that would be a great mechanism.

However, for the Great Admiral it seems like a misfit ability to have. A canal is an engineering project, not a millitary one. It doesn't match at all. I think the coastal fort is much beter suited for them.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 02:52 PM
I like the idea of canals, but Admirals and canals don't necessarily go together.

CYZ
Mar 01, 2012, 02:55 PM
I like the idea of canals, but Admirals and canals don't necessarily go together.

They don't go together at all if you ask me. Although it is a pity, a canal would be a great GP improvement there just isn't a GP that suits it.

blac
Mar 01, 2012, 03:03 PM
My guess would be that it could be expended in a city which builds a naval academy and all naval units built there have a 15-20% attack bonus, or speed bonus. I don't think a costal fort really makes much sense because that would still be a land based fort, so the GG should be building it.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 03:06 PM
I think Great Canal should be a World Wonder. When you complete it, you select its route. No more than 2 tiles long and no mountains.

A GAd could build a Sea Fortress that extends its ZoC out 2-3 tiles, preventing enemy ships from passing quickly.

CYZ
Mar 01, 2012, 03:07 PM
My guess would be that it could be expended in a city which builds a naval academy and all naval units built there have a 15-20% attack bonus, or speed bonus. I don't think a costal fort really makes much sense because that would still be a land based fort, so the GG should be building it.

I'm not so sure, in the end, naval combat still always resolves around land. Very little naval combat is actually performed in the middle of an empty ocean. It often revolves around cities, coasts or islands. A coastal fort makes alot of sense in this respect.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 03:10 PM
Plus that would make it an oddball compared to every other Great Person.

Morningcalm
Mar 01, 2012, 03:18 PM
A coastal fort hardly sets the Admiral apart from the General. I'd suggest that the Admiral can boost the XP of one naval unit massively as his "one-off" ability (basically making a flagship) while normally increasing the speed and attack of naval units near him (including defensively embarked units).

Or maybe the Great Admiral could be a military combat unit (flagship that can attack and defend) which also boosts the attack of units around him. :D

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 03:23 PM
Why should it be set apart from the Great General? The parallel is pretty obvious and straight forward.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 01, 2012, 03:53 PM
I like the idea of canals, but Admirals and canals don't necessarily go together.

Well, having a costal fort constructed by a Great Admiral that a ship can't enter seems really strange... and if a ship can enter it... then a ship can move through it.

I really like the Flagship idea though

Gucumatz
Mar 01, 2012, 04:04 PM
Does a citadel next to coast tiles no damage to enemy ships?

I think an Admiral would provide additional Food to coast tiles, because the other Great People already provide Gold, Culture, Production & Science. I'm just not sure what to call such an improvement. :p

But I'm really hoping it can construct a canal on land, allowing ships to pass trough.

Yea Citadels next to the coast do damage to ships already... I am not exactly sure if I am happy with a Seafort.

Players in multiplayer have used one/two citadels near their cap when I rush them with Ships of the line to damage them if they have a narrow pasageway to defend.

Its harder to raze a coastal Citadel than it would be to raze a Seafort. Ships are already so fast moving that it would become too easy to raze. I suggest a wider influence for a Seafort:

Defense Bonus:, 2 or 3 damage per turn within 3 tiles of the fort, tiles up to 3 spaces away cost 3 movement points to enter (that way Seaports become easier to protect).

Monthar
Mar 01, 2012, 04:12 PM
We don't have much for sea tiles in most cities, so here's what I think would work.

Floating Drydock
It's a cross between Manufactory and Citadel, built on the water.
2 hammers (3 with harbor, 4 with harbor and seaport)
+50% defense
Deals 10 damage to enemy naval units (same as only 1 damage if hitpoints were still 10)

With Freedom Finisher (if it doesn't change).
4 hammers (5 with harbor, 6 with harbor and seaport)
+100% defense
Deals 20 damage to enemy naval units (same as only 2 damage if hitpoints were still 10)

Morningcalm
Mar 01, 2012, 04:20 PM
Why should it be set apart from the Great General? The parallel is pretty obvious and straight forward.
Because variety is the spice of life, and having 2 great people do almost exactly the same thing is dull. The reason why different Great People types exist is usually because they all do something different. That's traditionally how it's been in the Civ series.

Gucumatz
Mar 01, 2012, 04:23 PM
Because variety is the spice of life, and having 2 great people do almost exactly the same thing is dull. The reason why different Great People types exist is usually because they all do something different. That's traditionally how it's been in the Civ series.

Very true, plus a Seafort would just be to weak. Its easy to defend a Citadel with units, but Navies move far too fast and can take out a unit on a Seafort quick and then easily raze it. Would just be a bad idea gameplay wise and especially on speed based Multiplayer.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 04:26 PM
I think to differentiate a Sea Fortress from a Citidel, the Sea Fortress should exert a Zone of Control across 2 to 3 ocean tiles from its location. That way enemy ships have to move slowly through the area. You could control straits, estuaries, and your own coastline. It's a strategic defensive improvement. Either the enemy has to penetrate the Zone or go around.

AriochIV
Mar 01, 2012, 04:39 PM
The biggest problem with this idea is that there is no example in history of a "sea fort."

I'm also curious what they plan to do with a Great Admiral, instead of just allowing a Great General to apply his bonus while embarked.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 04:53 PM
Fort Sumter was designed to defend Charleston Harbor. Fort Michilimackinac on Mackinac Island exerted control over part of the Great Lakes. Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas. Perhaps even the defenses on the Coast of Normandy would count. I think Havana Cuba was a fortified harbor at one point.

AriochIV
Mar 01, 2012, 05:40 PM
Those were forts on land that can be perfectly well represented by the existing fort, and were not floating structures on sea.

nokmirt
Mar 01, 2012, 05:49 PM
So far in Civ V, every great person has had some sort of special ability - Great Artists can build landmarks, Great Engineers can build manufactories, Great Generals can build citadels etc.

As well as presumably providing a positive combat modifier for nearby ships, what do you think the Great Admiral's ability will be?

To be able to build an Admirals flagship. Or build an admiralty building, or coastal fortress.

Louis XXIV
Mar 01, 2012, 07:11 PM
Well, having a costal fort constructed by a Great Admiral that a ship can't enter seems really strange... and if a ship can enter it... then a ship can move through it.

Well, coastal forts were never designed to let in ships. In fact, that's a bit counter-productive.

Those were forts on land that can be perfectly well represented by the existing fort, and were not floating structures on sea.

That's what I meant when I said coastal fort. I'm certainly not talking about something at sea, but something on land.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 01, 2012, 07:54 PM
Those were forts on land that can be perfectly well represented by the existing fort, and were not floating structures on sea.

Absolutely. A sea fortress is one built on the coast or an island for the purpose of exerting military control over an area of sea or for protecting a harbor from seaborne assault.

That is what we have in mind.

nokmirt
Mar 01, 2012, 08:11 PM
Well, coastal forts were never designed to let in ships. In fact, that's a bit counter-productive.



That's what I meant when I said coastal fort. I'm certainly not talking about something at sea, but something on land.

Actually, coastal forts were there to allow ships into a harbor so they could be proteced by the forts guns. So certainly the purpose was to protect ships in port. The idea was to keep the fleet in port safe from enemy attack. This is where the idea for blockade came from. Blockading fleets would simply wait outside the enemy harbor, out of range of the fortress guns, and wait for them to come out and fight. Coastal forts were also placed at strategic points along coast lines, peninsulas, islands, channel passages, and rivers, to deter enemy ships from sailing past. If the ship did not know the coded flag signal and tried to pass the fort they would be summarily fired upon.

Of course how that would play out in CiV is the question. The concept of a coastal fortress has to fit into the game as a workable improvement or building.

Venger
Mar 01, 2012, 08:40 PM
They don't go together at all if you ask me. Although it is a pity, a canal would be a great GP improvement there just isn't a GP that suits it.

Great Engineer? Seems perfectly natural...

Of course, I think building a city to make a canal is an already suitable way to do it, but your question did have an easy answer...

Monthar
Mar 01, 2012, 09:45 PM
How about instead of some sort of fortress, the GAd builds a naval mine field? It'd cover the tile it's built on and the 6 water tiles around it. All 7 tiles would not only damage enemy naval units, they'd also exert zone of control on these tiles and those adjacent to them. Friendly ships could pass through the field without damage, but still be slowed to simulate avoiding the mines. The owner's ships wouldn't be slowed, because the mines have a built in IFF system. The mine field can't be pillaged.

nokmirt
Mar 01, 2012, 09:50 PM
How about instead of some sort of fortress, the GAd builds a naval mine field? It'd cover the tile it's built on and the 6 water tiles around it. All 7 tiles would not only damage enemy naval units, they'd also exert zone of control on these tiles and those adjacent to them. Friendly ships could pass through the field without damage, but still be slowed to simulate avoiding the mines. The owner's ships wouldn't be slowed, because the mines have a built in IFF system. The mine field can't be pillaged.

This would be something that it could be upgraded too. A minefield would be pretty much just an industrial era improvement. The other eras would need something that fits them for revelance as well.

chazzycat
Mar 01, 2012, 11:35 PM
I'm kinda 'meh' on the sea fort thing. I like the minefield idea, but it somehow doesn't seem grand enough.

Here's the best idea I could think of:

The power is called "ultimate sacrifice" or "going down with the ship", or something like that. Basically, symbolizing a great act of valor or personal sacrifice by the admiral, other naval units would be inspired to fight much harder for a brief period of time.

Naval units would all get a combat bonus equal to double whatever the usual admiral boost is, BUT it would only last a few turns. That way it could be enough to tip the balance of a critical sea battle, but you would lose the admiral. Hopefully, the expansion is going to make naval battles important, so it could be cool.

filli_noctus
Mar 02, 2012, 06:51 AM
A drydock could be a solution. It would only be buildable on land adjacent to a coastal tile, it would not have to be built inside your territory, only the owners vessels can enter, any vessel inside can heal - even if it is outside of friendly territory and they lack the supply promotion, vessels inside heal at double rate.
Of course, it can double as a canal which may or may not be considered to be no bad thing.

Deggial
Mar 02, 2012, 06:53 AM
This is very creative, chazzycat!

But just to go back to the seafortress:
What, if this fortress has (beside a larger ZoC on water tiles) a 2 or 3 range attack (maybe just over water tiles, too)? It would be different to the general's fort, but at the same time comparable. And it would be perfect to control narrow straits.

Even if it is not total historic, I would like to see the seafort as shelter for ships (and therefore usable as short channel, too). They could heal faster, if inside, just like in cities.

Unfortuantely, this would only work in the player's empire and not outside it's borders (just as the fort doesn't work outside your own borders).
*IF* we had a new rule allowing mining colonies outside the own borders, though, this rule could solve this problem, too.

filli_noctus
Mar 02, 2012, 07:01 AM
Unless things have changed since I last used a citadel, it does work outside your borders.

Deggial
Mar 02, 2012, 07:05 AM
Unless things have changed since I last used a citadel, it does work outside your borders.

Really, it does? But how is the ownership managed, without orders? Is it simply owned by the builder, until it falls into the borders of an other emire?

To be honest, I always built my citadels inside my own borders, because I thoght I have to!

Louis XXIV
Mar 02, 2012, 07:15 AM
You can build forts outside your border, but you can't build citadels. Now maybe it works if a city is destroyed after you built it, but you can't build it.

filli_noctus
Mar 02, 2012, 07:15 AM
Really, it does? But how is the ownership managed, without orders? Is it simply owned by the builder, until it falls into the borders of an other emire?

To be honest, I always built my citadels inside my own borders, because I thoght I have to!

I'm pretty sure that's the case, they certainly act differently to forts - which give a bonus to any unit that happens to be inside.

Deggial
Mar 02, 2012, 07:26 AM
Arrgh! My fault!

Of course I meant "citadels", as we where talking about GGs! I was unprecise and did write "forts", not being aware that this is the name for the "normal" tile improvement.

Yes, "forts" can be built outside the own borders and - as it has no "active" effect (as the enemy-damaging by citadels), everybody in this tile can use it's benefit.

OK, as I clarified this, the problems stands: No *citadels* outside your own borders (relating to Louis). So, no seafortress outside, too. :) (or better: :()

shaglio
Mar 02, 2012, 08:04 AM
This would be something that it could be upgraded too. A minefield would be pretty much just an industrial era improvement. The other eras would need something that fits them for revelance as well.

AFAIK, a Manufactory can be built as soon as you get your first GE, regardless of which Era you are in. So I don't see a problem with building a hypothetical Minefield improvement before the Industrial Era.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 02, 2012, 08:05 AM
This is very creative, chazzycat!

But just to go back to the seafortress:
What, if this fortress has (beside a larger ZoC on water tiles) a 2 or 3 range attack (maybe just over water tiles, too)? It would be different to the general's fort, but at the same time comparable. And it would be perfect to control narrow straits.


I don't think it should have an Aura of damage like the Citidel. That would be too powerful. A seige unit placed inside would have the capacity to damage any nearby enemy naval units. If you want to further capitalize on the Sea Fortress, you should keep your own naval units stationed close by.

I prefer a simple Zone of Control, as if it were a limited area, naval version of the Great Wall.

shaglio
Mar 02, 2012, 08:08 AM
But just to go back to the seafortress:
What, if this fortress has (beside a larger ZoC on water tiles) a 2 or 3 range attack (maybe just over water tiles, too)? It would be different to the general's fort, but at the same time comparable. And it would be perfect to control narrow straits.

So are you suggesting a manual ranged attack ability (similar to a city defense) rather than the automatic attack at the end of your turn that a citidel has? I like that idea as it will help you defend you coastline even when enemy ships are between city defense ranges.

Deggial
Mar 02, 2012, 08:12 AM
So are you suggesting a manual ranged attack ability (similar to a city defense) rather than the automatic attack at the end of your turn that a citidel has?

Exactly!

In addition to the large ZoC, this could be quite interresting.

Edit: And, as ships will be able to conquer cities in G&K, every additional possibility to protect your costal cities against enemy raids will be very usefull.

KrikkitTwo
Mar 02, 2012, 08:35 AM
So Sea Fortress
1. Ships can enter (and thus it acts like a canal)
2. enemy Land units can't enter when a ship is in there
3. It gives the Ship inside a Defensive bonus
4. and an Offensive(ranged) bonus to the ship Or a ranged attack of its own
5. It exerts a ZOC on naval vessel
6. IF it can be built outside your territory, ships inside heal as if they are in friendly territory. (or ships just heal faster in it.. possibly even if they attack)

I'd settle for 1-3, but any of 4-6 would be good as well.

Deggial
Mar 02, 2012, 08:52 AM
Krikkitone, if you refer to my posts (do you?), I would not call it a "ranged bonus", but a "ranged attack", as this would not be related to any other units, but an intrinsic capability.

A bonus for stationed units could be possible, too, of course.

janboruta
Mar 02, 2012, 09:12 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Boyard_(fortification)

Example that detached naval fortresses are possible. Would be quite awesome to place one on you sea tiles. :)

Catastrophe90
Mar 02, 2012, 10:17 AM
Or they could put something like these things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunsell_Forts) for the GAdmirals. Sure, they ended up being completely negligible, but hey, its still better than the GDR.

I do prefer the Flagship thing though.

dexters
Mar 02, 2012, 01:04 PM
There's more water than land and ships don't need roads or rails to move at full speed over water.
If the admiral ability is a coastal fort it should project out more than one tile to force ships to move around it.

Lord Olleus
Mar 02, 2012, 01:13 PM
I really hope there are no sea based forts. Seems like a waste. I think the flagship idea (aka, Civ4 Warlords) is likelier. Or maybe they just have a passive bonus of +25% to friendly ships within a 3 tile range and + 1 movement.

Tantor
Mar 05, 2012, 03:08 AM
I would like the Admiral to build a fleet base, naval yard or naval academy.

A fleet base could act as a fortified port. Build it on a hex and you get a port with zoc an defensive bonuses. All great navies have a protected homebase, like Scapa Flow, Norfolk, Cartagena etc.....

Naval Yard - gives a production bonus

Naval academy - gives a xp bonus

nokmirt
Mar 05, 2012, 05:04 AM
AFAIK, a Manufactory can be built as soon as you get your first GE, regardless of which Era you are in. So I don't see a problem with building a hypothetical Minefield improvement before the Industrial Era.

In earlier eras it would not fit the times. A manufactory is not what I would compare a minefield too. What are you going to have in ancient and classical times, a port loaded with casks of Greek fire bobbing up in down in the water like so many buoys? It is an interesting idea, but truly was not on the tactics and strategy defense list of the times, if you know what I mean, as far as protecting ports. Granted the fact this is a game.
A minefield would fit just fine with the Great Firewall. UGH!!! :rolleyes::lol:

If there is going to be an improvement made for the GA, let it be something that fits all eras not just one. Come on that is not too much to ask.

headcase
Mar 05, 2012, 05:54 AM
Whatever the improvement is I think it should also give good visibility around the improvement, perhaps 3 or 4 hexes all around. Keeping tabs on ocean activity is always pretty tricky unless you have a lot of naval units.

ShahJahanII
Mar 05, 2012, 06:05 AM
Whatever the improvement is I think it should also give good visibility around the improvement, perhaps 3 or 4 hexes all around. Keeping tabs on ocean activity is always pretty tricky unless you have a lot of naval units.

Excellent idea.
Although shouldn't the lighthouse do that?

headcase
Mar 05, 2012, 06:08 AM
Excellent idea.
Although shouldn't the lighthouse do that?

Yeah, lighthouses should do that as well (and the GL even more); this is more for the deep ocean. I'd also like to see the admiral improvements buildable outside of friendly territory for this reason.

Toadman2
Mar 05, 2012, 07:54 PM
If you think great admirals in history. many were great for different reasons. Some strategic, some tactical, some logictically awesome. However, how do you turn that into a game function?

I actually a citadel is a purely defensive option for generals. Ovbiously the +25% bonus is for tactical, and the citidel is more of a defensive grand strategic decision.

So obviously the great admiral would have the same +25% bonus when used as is but inthe aspect of a grand ocean they would be very hard to defend unless you surrounded them completely. UHG, I dread the movement of ships in mass with this new one tile system. I think they should give them the same statistics of the most powerful ship you have at the time and treat them as a naval unit.

As for it's built structure I would have to look at what the great naval facilities throughout time did for the countries. Many were key points to the national defense in many ways.

1) Logistics and Detection: Since there is no suppy in this game this is kind of mute unless you allow naval ships to possibly repair at see within a certain range much like land units heal though not as fast as when in a city. Speed up repairs while in the port facility. Give the City a +# Visibility bonus.
2) Great Drydock/Repair and Research facilities: Maybe give -25% upgrade cost and/or a Construction bonus
3) Training and Tactical Naval College Facility: xp bonus to ships built there.
4) The facility would be a structure within an existing city so it could be affected by the new espionage system. Naval facilities were always guarded heavily due to sabotage threats.
5) Fortifications: City receives +25% bunus vs. Naval Bombardment and Air Attacks.

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

fat_tonle
Mar 08, 2012, 12:04 PM
So now that we know GA's have no UI.... what happens if he spawns in a giant lake?

Wasted Golden Age there...

bonafide11
Mar 08, 2012, 12:16 PM
So now that we know GA's have no UI.... what happens if he spawns in a giant lake?

Wasted Golden Age there...

How do we know that?

I assume he will still spawn outside of a city, and I assume he will be able to build a UI on land, just not in the water.

AriochIV
Mar 08, 2012, 12:20 PM
Lighthouses don't add visibility to a port... they're not giant flashlights. They're beacons for ships to follow into port.

fat_tonle
Mar 08, 2012, 12:37 PM
How do we know that?

I assume he will still spawn outside of a city, and I assume he will be able to build a UI on land, just not in the water.

Did you see the screen shot? It is basically a destroyer... I doubt it was on an embark or anything. If it were, and could travel on land, then it would be no different than a GG, only without a UI.

I'd like to see an off territory dry dock or whatever.... something that could bombard 2+ range. But the improvement would be built immediately wherever you disembark, giving you the option so you don't accidentally miss click. Probably won't be an option though, but seems simple enough for an ability.

And faster healing/better combat bonuses makes sense. I don't know if you would give it 1+ or 2+ boundaries though. Obviously sea terrain would only be pertinent in this instance, although perhaps land units can get the bonus as well. And the improvement could be captured by enemies if conquered.

Which also gives me another idea. Maybe for another expansion, we get a Great Explorer. These guys would have unbelievable movement and could establish colonies outside your territory. Just a thought.

bonafide11
Mar 08, 2012, 12:41 PM
Did you see the screen shot? It is basically a destroyer... I doubt it was on an embark or anything. If it were, and could travel on land, then it would be no different than a GG, only without a UI.

I'd like to see an off territory dry dock or whatever.... something that could bombard 2+ range. But the improvement would be built immediately wherever you disembark, giving you the option so you don't accidentally miss click. Probably won't be an option though, but seems simple enough for an ability.

And healing makes sense. I don't know if you would give it 1+ or 2+ boundaries though. Obviously sea terrain would only be pertinent in this instance, although perhaps land units can get the bonus as well. And the improvement could be captured by enemies if conquered.

Which also gives me another idea. Maybe for another expansion, we get a Great Explorer. These guys would have unbelievable movement and could establish colonies outside your territory. Just a thought.

As others have said, it's a destroyer just like the Great General is in a jeep. It doesn't mean it actually is a destroyer, it's just the icon representing it. I assume the Great Admiral can travel on land, but it doesn't give any bonus to land units. It can travel on water like any unit can, and it embarks and becomes a naval icon based on the era then. There is no reason to assume that the Great Admiral can't travel on land yet.

filli_noctus
Mar 08, 2012, 01:51 PM
As others have said, it's a destroyer just like the Great General is in a jeep. It doesn't mean it actually is a destroyer, it's just the icon representing it. I assume the Great Admiral can travel on land, but it doesn't give any bonus to land units. It can travel on water like any unit can, and it embarks and becomes a naval icon based on the era then. There is no reason to assume that the Great Admiral can't travel on land yet.

I concur, if you check the screenshot carefully you will notice two promotion triangles. I suspect they will be embarkation and may enter ocean tiles. I'm uncertain as to whether or not it can create a UI as I generally don't pay much attention to the improvement interface on great people when they're embarked so I don't know if it appears or not.

Eagle Pursuit
Mar 08, 2012, 02:03 PM
One promo should be open ocean, the other would be the bonus to adjacent units, right?

I don't think it can go on land. Don't embarked units usually have a command button to disembark when they are next to a land tile?

apocalypse105
Mar 08, 2012, 02:53 PM
Just thinxing out loud Isn't it just a great general but in a ship form? ANd give a great bonus at nearby ships

Monthar
Mar 08, 2012, 03:40 PM
I concur, if you check the screenshot carefully you will notice two promotion triangles. I suspect they will be embarkation and may enter ocean tiles. I'm uncertain as to whether or not it can create a UI as I generally don't pay much attention to the improvement interface on great people when they're embarked so I don't know if it appears or not.

The Embarkation icon isn't a triangle, it look like baseball's home plate. So that's not what the 2nd one is.

Just because that screenshot only shows golden ages doesn't mean it won't be able to build something on the sea when G&K launches. After all the expansion surely isn't finished yet. So there is a chance they'll add a UI to it. Since it's depicted as a ship, the should mean it can't ever enter a land tile. Therefore any UI it gets will have to be something built on the water.

Louis XXIV
Mar 08, 2012, 04:08 PM
Did you see the screen shot? It is basically a destroyer... I doubt it was on an embark or anything. If it were, and could travel on land, then it would be no different than a GG, only without a UI.

I think, crucial to your analysis, is that it can't embark on land. If it can embark on land, it won't be a destroyer on land. Moreover, if it builds a land UI, this won't appear while it's at sea. So we don't know if it has the option to build a UI yet.

However, given the lack of embark promotions, you might very well be right.

fat_tonle
Mar 08, 2012, 08:11 PM
Usually the UI icon would be there but wouldn't be highlighted if unable to construct at sea. Anyhow.... maybe a sea fort would be too OP, but it is something. Obtaining GAd's should not be an easy thing. It should require multiple sea battles and wins. Not something easy to do especially if it is a non naval game. Admirals should get a nice ability not just adjacent bonuses and a golden age dump.

nokmirt
Mar 08, 2012, 08:18 PM
How come the Great Admiral can start a golden age, but there is no option below that on the interface? Underneath the golden age diamond, the Great General has the option to build a citadel. Strange I wish they would not leave so much in the dark about these things. Its getting old.

Monthar
Mar 08, 2012, 09:05 PM
Maybe they haven't added it, nor told us what it'll be because they haven't made a final decision on what UI to have the GAd build.

Buccaneer
Mar 08, 2012, 09:54 PM
Given ocean travel pre-Astronomy makes sense but at Optics, not at Sailing. I would still make it embark from friendly territory though. Keep the Polynesian work boat that can travel the world but I would give an Admiral the same capability that early.

CivilizedPlayer
Mar 09, 2012, 07:23 PM
Well the Great Engineer gets an ability when in a city (speed production). Is it possible that the Great Admiral (which certainly can go in cities, regardless of whether it can enter land tiles) get's a special ability when in a city, like building some naval fort to protect it from sea attacks? Or speed naval unit production, or something.

Tantor
Mar 12, 2012, 02:01 AM
With the new emphasis on coastal raiding, i think a coastal fortress could be a good special ability for the GAD, but it cannot be a copy of the citadel. It must have other abilities such as movement restriction (ZOC), increased LOS etc wich would be useful to fend off raiders.....

theis81
Mar 12, 2012, 02:57 AM
With the new emphasis on coastal raiding, i think a coastal fortress could be a good special ability for the GAD, but it cannot be a copy of the citadel. It must have other abilities such as movement restriction (ZOC), increased LOS etc wich would be useful to fend off raiders.....

I agree on the coastal fortress. I don't like the ZoC idea, since you have to be able to move to have a ZoC.

Give the fortress a ranged attack (age dependant range/strength, can't targit land tiles), increased LoS and ranged units inside the fortress gets an attack bonus + increased range vs naval. This would make it an interesting UI.

Tantor
Mar 12, 2012, 03:11 AM
I agree on the coastal fortress. I don't like the ZoC idea, since you have to be able to move to have a ZoC.

I don`t understand what you mean..?
In my opininon a zoc and deterrent is just what the coastal fortresses were designed for.
To deny enemy naval units freedom of operation within range of the fortress. This was more important than actual fighting damage vs enemy vessels.

In game terms it would mean that an enemy fleet is slowed down by a nearby fortress, allowing you to prepare a proper defense.

theis81
Mar 12, 2012, 03:27 AM
I don`t understand what you mean..?
In my opininon a zoc and deterrent is just what the coastal fortresses were designed for.
To deny enemy naval units freedom of operation within range of the fortress. This was more important than actual fighting damage vs enemy vessels.

In game terms it would mean that an enemy fleet is slowed down by a nearby fortress, allowing you to prepare a proper defense.

I think ranged attack is the "zone of control" the fortress should have.

When approaching a melee unit defending a ranged, zoc is used to fix the problem with this being a turn based game. If we didn't have zoc, units could walk right past the melee and for and attack the ranged unit hiding behind. In reality thats not realisitic since the melee unit would be able to intercept that unit.

theadder
Mar 12, 2012, 04:10 AM
I rather enjoyed the proposal that I saw around for some sort of dock to allow production of vessels inland for a civilisation that doesn't have direct coastal access with a city.

I don't expect that they shall do it, but it would be nice all the same.

Pargali
Mar 12, 2012, 04:15 AM
sea fart ability: poison the costal of the enemy city and decrease city population for x turns.

Uberfrog
Mar 12, 2012, 04:29 AM
I rather enjoyed the proposal that I saw around for some sort of dock to allow production of vessels inland for a civilisation that doesn't have direct coastal access with a city.

I don't expect that they shall do it, but it would be nice all the same.

The problem there is how exactly a civ without a coastal city is supposed to accrue enough naval XP (or whatever you need) to earn a Great Admiral.

theadder
Mar 12, 2012, 04:34 AM
The problem there is how exactly a civ without a coastal city is supposed to accrue enough naval XP (or whatever you need) to earn a Great Admiral.

I suppose at the absolute extreme a Liberty derived Great Admiral [assuming that this is possible] will provide this.

But yes, that is difficult. Even if those mechanisms in the game are the sole route for gaining access to the dock, then that might be a desirable thing for people to go for.

Uberfrog
Mar 12, 2012, 04:50 AM
I suppose at the absolute extreme a Liberty derived Great Admiral [assuming that this is possible] will provide this.

But yes, that is difficult. Even if those mechanisms in the game are the sole route for gaining access to the dock, then that might be a desirable thing for people to go for.

The problem is that the ability will be effectively wasted for the very players who are going to be getting the most Great Admirals. The GA should reward players who have had naval success rather than providing a crutch for civs who can't even build a navy.

I think it would be a bit of a break from the current model for admirals not to be able to construct some sort of building or improvement, but I'm not quite excited by the naval fort, as it seems too similar to a citadel built on the coast. That said I almost always use GGs in the field or for golden ages, so I can see myself doing the same with admirals.

A little off-topic, but do people suppose the Great Prophet will have a shrine-building ability as in Civ IV?

CYZ
Mar 12, 2012, 04:56 AM
I rather enjoyed the proposal that I saw around for some sort of dock to allow production of vessels inland for a civilisation that doesn't have direct coastal access with a city.

I don't expect that they shall do it, but it would be nice all the same.

That would be great really. Then again, those civs who would need such a thing the most will probably not get it, they can't build a navy thus no naval fighting thus no Great Admiral. Also, naval civs, who most likely have most cities on the coast, would have no use for it.

Unless Great Admirals are not gotten from naval experience it would not work so well.

theadder
Mar 12, 2012, 05:02 AM
The problem is that the ability will be effectively wasted for the very players who are going to be getting the most Great Admirals. The GA should reward players who have had naval success rather than providing a crutch for civs who can't even build a navy.

I think it would be a bit of a break from the current model for admirals not to be able to construct some sort of building or improvement, but I'm not quite excited by the naval fort, as it seems too similar to a citadel built on the coast. That said I almost always use GGs in the field or for golden ages, so I can see myself doing the same with admirals

None of the options seem particularly exciting. If the dock option was opted for, there's no particular reason why it has to be to the exclusion of another option as well. Or the dock might be founded in a different way. An engineer, for example. Either way, I don't expect its inclusion; it is simply a nice idea.

The Great Admiral will probably have some sort of building, yes. It also probably won't be very exciting; the main reason for this discussion, after all, is that it is more difficult to have a static defence for sea units, otherwise we should all expect a citadel-type structure.

A little off-topic, but do people suppose the Great Prophet will have a shrine-building ability as in Civ IV?

It seems very likely; I wonder whether they will have the Shrine produce the same sort of bonuses that the Civ IV shrine did; gold and so on. It could be solely faith, but that seems unlikely.

Rex_Mundi
Mar 12, 2012, 05:09 AM
There is a big problem with tile improvements on the water, when they are pillaged they disappear completely, on the land they change state, but can be repaired.

I would hate to loose a great person improvement completely to some random enemy ship.

SammyKhalifa
Mar 12, 2012, 07:06 AM
Hmm, the most obvious choice would seem to be a Naval Academy. They're on land/coast "tiles."

nokmirt
Mar 12, 2012, 07:08 AM
There is a big problem with tile improvements on the water, when they are pillaged they disappear completely, on the land they change state, but can be repaired.

I would hate to loose a great person improvement completely to some random enemy ship.

Well I think the Great Admirals' improvement would most likely not be destroyable. I would imagine it would have to be captured, same as a citadel. I do not know if a coastal type sea citadel is needed though. Although, something like that would of course be highly defensible. The thing is how often is it really going to be used in the game? It would have to have some truly revelant importance. I just don't see that the way things are. There is so much we don't know, so many questions yet to be answered.

Improvements on the sea are removed, because the fishing boats are sunk. You have to build new ones which makes sense.

Alk3Crimson
Mar 12, 2012, 07:54 AM
I personally don't see the need for a Great Admiral to have a buildable improvement. I think their greatest use would be to sail with a fleet and boost their effectiveness. This is the same reason I never really waste a Great General on building a citadel. I'd rather have him with my army boosting their strength, unless I have excess GGs to burn.

It would be cool if you could "attach" the GA to a ship to create a Flag Ship. That ship would then grant a combat bonus to nearby ships and would have increased combat strength and movement points.