Alright, I'm back with a vengence. This is another warmonger themed SG, as my last one, CG4, will be dead soon, and if it doesn't, we're going to be a crappy Civ.

Civ - Ottomans. Love that Siphai!

Map - Pangea (warmongering, baby! :p), Large, rest of stats regular. Made ingame, as I seem to be having problems with the editor.

Victory Conditions - All on, but only Conquest will be accepted.

Level - Emperor. Despite the fact that we're losing on Monarch, I think that has less to do with the level than with bad decisions. I haven't won yet on Emperor, but I've gotten awfully close (in my last game, I had conquered two nations already in early Middle Ages, far ahead).

Version - PTW, 1.14f, although that should be obvious. ;)

Variant Rules - Because the last game was a pretty large failure, not too many variants here. All the usual exploits disallowed. (I think there is a list on the RBCiv site.) The ONLY variant rule that will be enforced is that when we attack another civ, we cannot make peace until they are destroyed. So if we attack a civ, we cannot make peace, only destroy them. If another civ attacks us, we can make peace at any time.

Roster - Me
Cromagnon
Jack Merchant
Swiftsure
(Open)

All these spots are open, although I invite the crew (cromagnon, Sultan, swiftsure and aggie) from CG4 back to whoop some AIs! However, I'm not sure all will accept, as they seemed to say that they had trouble with Monarch.

I'll post the save and starting pic later today. :)

I've never won on Emperor, and given the fact that I only win 66% on Monarch (OK, CG 4 knocks that down a bit), I'm not sure if I should try this.
we cannot make peace until they are destroyed.
Don't you mean "until we or they are destroyed?" ;)
No, seriously, this is a major constraint, even tougher than the last one. It's effectively an "always war" situation.

Originally posted by cromagnon
IIt's effectively an "always war" situation.

Not if we play our diplomacy cards right. ;) Although I'm not sure thats possible with our record. ;) How about this: The 'long haul' rule only applies to wars we start?

Hey: Emperor isn't that much harder. 66% on Monarch is a good record...are you sure? I don't want to push you...

One final note: The truth is, I've found variants much more fun, win or lose (that is, lose closely, not like CG4). I've also found that they get much higher participation than a regular conquest.

OK, I'm a sucker. You got me.
Just keep in mind that I leave on 3/11, and I won't have CivIII privileges (unless I break down and buy the Mac versions of both). :hmm:

Originally posted by cromagnon
OK, I'm a sucker. You got me.
Just keep in mind that I leave on 3/11, and I won't have CivIII privilages (unless I break down and buy the Mac versions of both). :hmm:

You can't play Civ3 forever, or just for a while?

Good to have you on. Now that I have atleast one person, I'll make the game. :)

You know what, Cromagnon, I think I will change the rule.

New Rule: The ONLY variant rule that will be enforced is that when we attack another civ, we cannot make peace until they are destroyed. So if we attack a civ, we cannot make peace, only destroy them. If another civ attacks us, we can make peace at any time.

I'd like to volunteer for this if you have an open spot. I can win fairly reliably on monarch, and have just started to move up to emperor. Plus the Ottoman's industrious nature should make things easier.
I have not played in an SG before, but have been an avid lurker in this forum.

And so with heavy heart do i pick up my sword again. where will it end these wars within wars....... oh bugger it lets kick some butt

Sure, jackmerchant. There is lots of room - two spots left after you.

I'm off to make the map now. :) I'l play the first 40 too.

CGannon, see if you can do the alternating US/Europe thing again. I think it worked pretty well to speed the game along.

New rule accepted. Of course, this means we only declare war when we're damn sure we're going to wipe someone out... :D

Plus, if the last game is any indication, I'm not sure we'll even get to declare war... ;)

I lose my CivIII privilages for about a month, when I'm out of town. But I'll lurk and cheer from the sidelines, maybe some back-seat playing...

Good to have Swiftsure and JackMerchant on board. Welcome :wavey:

Edit: just a friendly reminder: Note to teammates: Do NOT leave units on auto-move, and do NOT automate workers!

Looking forward to this ! I'm in the CET timezone for planning purposes (meaning I must go zzzz soon :) ). E-mail in profile.
Our enemies will be trampled under the hooves of our Sipahi !

Alright, here are the first 40. I'm not totally satisfied, as we had some barb and growth trouble, but the terrain is enough to compensate. :D

(1) Here we go, the start a new empire. We are up to our knees in forest and jungle. Istanbul founded on starting spot, on the river. (Note: it doesn't look like its on the river, but a quick Terrain check reveals that it is.) Ends up that we are a few tiles of a coastline.

(2) First tech is Pottery, as is my style. Science upped to 100%, 27 turns. Worker starts mining. Man, I LOVE industrious! :D

(3-5) Zip.

(6) Warrior built. Goes to explore.

(7) Goody hut popped. Barbs! Argh.

(8) The Barbs kill our warrior. Damn it. Our worker runs. Our city will be ransacked. The RNG strikes again...;)

(9) The Barb takes gold, but there is still two more on the way.

(10) The first barb kills our work on the Warrior, and the second barb does the same, which is essientially nothing. I guess the RNG is happy again. ;)

(11) Nothing.

(12) Second warrior is built. Spear on the way, and then settler.

(13-15) Istanbul riots. My bad.

(16) Exploration reveals favorable terrain, lots of grassland.

(17) Goody hut reveals nothing. Hey, its better than Barbs, right?

(18) We meet Japan! I trade Masonry for Warrior Code and 10g, witholding Broze Working from him.

(19-20) Nothing. Istanbul is undefended (Spear in 3) but the Japanese warrior approaches. I trust him...

(21) He backs off. Thank the Lord. :)

(22) Nothing.

(23) Spear is built. Istanbul will grow to size 3 in 10 turns (sorry it had to be stagnant for a few turns, either that or riots) and Settler will be done in 8. So I build a second Spear, due in 5, and then a settler. Slow expansion...grr.

(24-27) Nothing. Damn, we have some nice terrain to the south. I'll post a dotmap for it, its just wonderful. Much better than CG4.

(28-30) Another Spear built in Istanbul, settler in 8. This is slow expansion (damn barbs) but we have such great terrain to the South I can't complain.

(31) Nothing.

(32) Pottery discovered at max sci. (Maybe I should have done min...whatever.) Iron Working pushed back to min sci, 40 turns, 4gpt. Dyes hooked up. Crap, I should have done this earlier, would have prevented the riots. Argh.

(33-35) Greece, of all people, met in the North, as a Hoplite comes into our view. We give him Masonry for Cermional and 13g. Japan has the Wheel, Greece has Alphabet. Not bad, not bad.

(36) Man, this feels wrong not going to have a city by the end of my term. We're going max growth in the next bunch people, as we want to fill out our land before Japan does.

(37-40) And that's it for me. Proposed build order: after the settler, a warrior snuck in (we have two Spears) so we can explore the North. I propose to you guys a strategy question: should we build two spears in our cities before a settler, to prevent the lack of defenders? I usually do this, but it can hinder growth. It really depends on the situation, as you can sometimes fit in 2 spears and a settler without trouble, but sometimes that second spear pushes the settler too far back, which hurts growth. Oh, and no dotmap, I have stuff to do. :p

Here is a pic of the start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5start.jpg


And the save:


CG5 Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-2630BC.sav)

Um, where's the roster? :confused:

Japanese warrior approaches. I trust him...:eek: I thought it was almost time for CG6!

OK, my bad. I forgot to sacrifice a virgin to the RNG god again. Hate when that happens.

Nothing I could do anyway. I don't think I could've rushed the Spear, because I think I was at size one.

You're up, cromagnon! Sorry, the roster is in the bottom of the first post:

Cromagnon -> Up Now
Jack Merchant -> On Deck
Swiftsure
(Open)
Me

Good Luck, cromagnon! :D

Got it

You playing tonight, cromagnon?

CroSultan looks upon his lone city. It will soon grow to an empire, he thinks. Everything seems to be in order, with a settler due in 2 cycles.
[1] 2590BC: Worker builds road, warrior explores SW

[2] 2550BC: Istanbul builds settler -> Spear for now, may change it. Settler/spear move south.

[3] 2510BC: nothing

[4] 2470BC: Edrine founded, build warrior. Worker starts mining.

[5] 2430BC: nothing

[6] 2390BC: more mining

[7] 2350BC: nothing

[8] 2310BC: Erdrine warrior -> spear. Warrior explores west.

[9] 2270BC: Istanbul spear -> warrior (doesn't grow fast enough for settler; we need granary here). Spear explores a bit east. Alexander and Tokugawa want too much for Wheel. Alex has monopoly on mysticism & alphabet. Worker starts roading south.

[10] 2230BC: nothing

[11] 2190BC: nothing

[12] 2150BC: Istanbul warrior -> settler. Warrior explores north. Woohoo! Cattle and wheat to the east!

[13] 2110BC: They still want all our gold plus 2 gpt for wheel or mysticism, and Alex won't let alphabet go. Istanbul to grow and produce settler in 7. I wonder if it would riot before it got built if SultanGannon hadn't hooked up dyes...:hmm:
IBT: An Aztec Jaguar warrior shows up to the west.

[14] 2070BC: Greece and Aztecs have Alphabet, mysticism, and wheel. Japan lacks Alphabet. I trade Greece Contact with Japan and 52 gold for Contact with Korea and Alphabet. Korea only hase 17 gold and lacks Masonry. Bummer. Greece has monopoly on Writing (I've never seen the AI beeline for Literature!). I give Japan Alphabet for wheel straight up. They all want gpt for Mysticism, so I hold off.

[15] 2030BC: Edrine builds spear -> wealth for 1 turn, then settler in 8 (to allow growth). Spear goes to protect worker, as Aztecs are nearby.

[16] 1990BC: nothing
IBT: Korean spear spotted to the north.

[17] 1950BC: Spear approaches goody hut to the east.

[18] 1910BC: Sure enough, Bactran warrior emerge from the hut. Korea has writing. I get this for Wheel, Japanese Contact, and 53 gold. I sell writing to Japan for Mysticism and 65 gold. This brings everyone to parity, and we have 122 in the bank.
IBT: Our spear is attacked by 2 warriors, and promotes, taking a scratch. Japan settles to the south, by the wheat (but we can still get the cattle).

[19] 1870BC: Our warrior to the north attacks a barb camp but loses. :( Our spear starts heading back to pick up the settler which is to emerge from Istanbul.
IBT: Lonely barbarian warrior attacks our spear, making him elite. :saiyan:

[20] 1830BC: Istanbul settler -> granary. Settler moves east. I finally spot some horses waaay to the NW.

We have 153+8gpt, tech parity, and our neighbors are dirt poor. IW due in 16.

CroSultan looks at his worthy successor, Sultan Jack, and suggests the following:
The settler should probably settle the nearby wheat/cattle spot.
Settler in Edrine due in 4, should head south to claim the cattle and wheat.

He hands the sceptre of power over: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1830.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS1.jpg
Priority should be given to Red and Blue, then Hot Pink.
We'll se what we can get after that.
I'm not particularly attached to the others,
although orange will give us gems.

Istanbul has problems growing, not with shields,
which is why I set it to granary.

And yes, as we may box Japan in, we'd better beef upon defense.

Nice work cromagnon. From the minimap, it looks like, with a little work, we can corner Japan in. You know what that means...;) :mischief:

Jack -> Up Now
Swiftsure -> On Deck
(Open)
Me
Cromagnon

sign up tiem baby! i am sure i will do fine. Unliek the last gmae lets NOT quiit it.

btw soudns kind fo noobish. Whats RNG how do i check my version hwo do i uopload a .sav. how di attach a pic?

Got it and playing.
Are we still on 20 turns or should I go for 10 ?

Well, I went ahead and played 20 anyway. It's early enough in the game, I hope.
My notes:

preturn - everything looks good and I press enter

1790 settler moves south, worker sent back to Istanbul to clear and irrigate the game forest. The exploring spear sent back to meet up with the settler.

interturn the Japanese demand and get 27 gold -we're in no shape to wage war yet

1750 nothing much

1725 the Aztecs have iron working. Nobody else does, as yet. Settler completes in Edrine, barracks ordered up ( I considered a temple, but want vet troops before we become everybody's whipping boys)

1700 Buy a Greek worker for 120 gp.

1675 Found Bursa one square SE of the dot. Istanbul's border will expand to give it the wheat in 8 turns anyway. Warrior ordered up for exploration.

1650 Found Iznik on the slopes of the gold mountain. This is a large map so I don't think our cities should be packed too tightly. Buy a korean worker for 40 gp and 4gpt (I've been checking every turn). Workers improving Istanbul

1625 Nothing much
1600 Nothing much Greece and Japan have IW too. We can't trade for it though.
1575 Worker finishes clearing game forest. Once irrigated, it will yield 4 food.
1550 Nothing much - Greeks want 20 gold, and lacking any intelligence on where they are, I cave
1525 Nothing much
1550-1475 Istanbul MM'd to get the granary the turn before the city grows, I accidentally cross into Aztec territory (couldn't see the border through the jungle). They're still polite.

1450 Iznik produces a worker. Production set to spear for now. Barb shows up north of Istanbul. Japs and Aztecs now have horseback riding.

1425 Bursa produces worker. Normally I'd use it to irrigate the cattle but I think I'll mine it instead as otherwise it will never have any shields. Production set to spear but a temple might be a better idea.

1400 Istanbul produces granary. Spear ordered up to accompany forthcoming settlers. We get IW. There's one iron in reach west of Iznik and one in the northernn hills. Research set to literature at min science. Everyone now has mapmaking. I buy the Korean wm for wm+67gp+1gpt and then resell it to the others for 78gp total.

1375 Edrine produces barracks, set to spear. Istanbul changed to settler. Both due in 5. We cannot yet trade for mapmaking.

1350 The Greeks establish an embassy with us. Frag a barb camp. Another iron discovered to the east, though the greeks may get there before us. All the others already have iron in their cultural borders.

Thoughts: Istanbul will riot when it grows to size 4; I suggest using the luxury tax to keep it happy instead of entertainers. Iznik could maybe use a temple as the Japs already founded a town in range to pressure it culturally. They have no horses as far as I can see so we should probably acquire iron and take it to them.
Also, this doesn't seem to be a true pangaea. But with mapmaking around, I suppose the other contacts should come in soon.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1350.SAV)

Great work, JM. Not letting your pride get in the way is something I have to learn the hard way.
:blush: I forgot about the game by Istanbul.

We need horses in the near future, for knights and then Sipahi. Too bad Japan doesn't have it.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Great work, JM. Not letting your pride get in the way is something I have to learn the hard way.


Don't worry - I learned it the hard way, too :D

Sorry guys, I'm not going to join this. I think emperor is hard enough without any variant rules. And a rule to destroy a civ after declaring war sounds too difficult for me. Cetainly after my part in our last game...

You did just fine in CG4. As I said, I ran that scenario a couple of times; we were the underdogs (due to low production), in the center of the world, and always under the dogpile.

You're a better player than I am, and I'm sure you'd do fine. Just join and have fun, win or lose! If you have other commitments, then no problem, hope to see you in the next one. :goodjob:

So am i in?

Widdowmaker, please see my reply to you in CG4 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=803215#post803215). Ultimately, it's up to CGannon.

Swifsure, it's your game.

EDIT: Jack Merchant, we're playing 20 turns per player, although we may trim that to 10 if it bogs down in the later years (you know, where it takes 1 hour to play 2-3 turns). The starting player goes for 40 turns, as it can be boring otherwise.

Also, it's a strict 24 hours to claim "got it," and 48 hours to play.

Wow, so much happens when I am at school. ;) First of all, let me get this out of the way:

Swiftsure -> Up Now
(Open...you sure Aggie?)
Me
Cromagnon
Jack

Second of all: No offense, widdowmaker, but I think you should get some experience under your belt. We all had trouble on a Monarch game, for goodness sakes, and this is an Emperor with variant rules. This is going to be trouble enough for me, and I've done well on Emperor. Seeing as you have only played 3 games, I think you should get a few more games on higher levels under your belt before you do an Emperor SG. Although feel free to start one yourself. :)

Now, about the game: Don't worry about Horses just yet. We (seem, hard to tell from reports) have Iron within our grasp. I'm assuming all of you agree we should go at Japan pretty quickly, so (hopefully) by the time Knights roll around we'll have acquired horses.

I think top priority now should be getting Iron and just turning that great terrain into a nice production base. Then, after that, expansion from shield-weak cities and swords churning out from shield-high cities.

Go swiftusre! :goodjob:

Taking into account some of the lessons learned from CG4, I'm rethinking my dotmap. Sulla, Sirp, and Arathorn noted a lot of "wasted land at the core," and suggested a slightly denser build. Furthermore, we ought to grab some of the jungle to the N and NW as well, especially since we have industrious workers on our side.

It now sounds like Istanbul is a decent settler factory, and the other cities should concentrate on defense and infrastructure.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Furthermore, we ought to grab some of the jungle to the N and NW as well, especially since we have industrious workers on our side.

Not before we take that great land to the South though, right? ;)

Hi guys,

The GREAT advise from the experienced players convinced me to ask if I could join this game!

When I'm in, I want to start by saying that we should follow Sirp's and Sulla's advice to build our cities tighter together. Corruption is even worse than losing a few tiles. And you also build cities faster when there's closer together. Note that my first day from the office will be Friday. I can play then...

Good to see you back, Aggie. The NEW lineup:

Swiftsure -> Up Now
Aggie
Me
Cromagnon
Jack

YES!! [dance]

Soory bout sayin sultna screwed up. I just liek being blunt. I hate it when ppl sugar coat the truth to malke is sound better than it is. All i was tryin to say is IF he let the war die then chanceds are you wouldve won.

Also i did cheiftan jsut to learn the controls. I am ahead by about 15 techs and have well over 75 working running self susfficent metros in WLTKD along wiht HUGE miltary and i am owning half the world. I think if cheiftan is that easy and form what i have been reading in games on deity i belive i coudl handle empporor.(spl)

I apologize for the remark on sultans turn and how i belive he "Screwd up". It shall nto happen again.

p.s. I woudl like to occupy the open slot.

Originally posted by widdowmaker
I just liek being blunt. I hate it when ppl sugar coat the truth to malke is sound better than it is.

I like to be blunt as well. Your way of posting and your admitting that you play chieftain with no game finished ever, is just not enough comfort for us to have you join. I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe the others agree. We like to play a serious game with people that are at least experienced enough to play monarch level and win a couple of games there.

Why not follow cgcannon64's great advice and open your own SG on yuor own conditions? Our join a chieftain/warlord training SG. Those are great as well...

Originally posted by cgannon64

Now, about the game: Don't worry about Horses just yet. We (seem, hard to tell from reports) have Iron within our grasp. I'm assuming all of you agree we should go at Japan pretty quickly, so (hopefully) by the time Knights roll around we'll have acquired horses.

Go swiftusre! :goodjob: [/B]

Sorry about that; I should have been clearer in the report. The iron is, as you can see, in settler reach, not close to being connected. If we manage to grab it, we can do the mass-produce warriors-upgrade to swordsmen trick, but it'll take another 30 turns before we're there.

Our empire:

Hmm, we'll have to grab that Iron quick, Jack, before the Japanese do. Plus it will be tough to connect, although the warrior->sword does sound promising.

So, what do you guys think? Do we put science at minimum to build up a load of cash for a warrior->sword, or do we do it the old fashioned way?

Even with industrious workers, the connecting road will take a while to build, and will be a tenuous one, easily cut by the Japanese. Plus, we'll have to put our city just NW of the iron, on the hill. Not the best spot, but with some expansion, should grow.

I wonder why Nagoya was placed there? It doesn't seem like a particularly good spot, unless some oil springs up in the future...:hmm:

I say keep cranking out settlers in Istanbul (thanks for irrigating), use Edrine for spears, and get a temple in Iznik so it can expand onto the wheat and cattle. Bursa may be able to eke out a settler as well.

Will get it tonight, on emporer money is definately the way to go. you cant keep up with the ai on tech research so u have to by the techs off them.

You guys seem to be doing a little better this time around, so far at least.

swiftsure: You definitely can keep up with the AIs in research on emperor level, and since the Ottomans are Scientific, that's precisely what you should try to do! Even on Deity you can do it these days, well, sort of :)

If you go for libraries, you can research the technologies the AI delays, then trade them with them, and hopefully make some good cash out of it too.

Also uhmm...is that a worker I see mining the cattle near Bursa? That's a bonus food tile, with a city on fresh water! You want the city to grow, and grow fast! Build a granary in that city and it'll be a super-city in no time, able to produce settlers, workers, or just grow damn big and start churning out units.

Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time :)

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time :)

-Sirp.

Apology accepted. And please keep doing it :) Thanks :goodjob:

Yes i know that. But i did the cheiftian games for 2 resons.
1) To learn the controls.
2)To have a sim game ot buidl in when i dont got nothing better to do. And to see a nuke go off for the first time.

Also i never finished one because they were so hoplessley easy. I bumped it up to warlord yeterday and thats easy. Next is regent then monarch. I am pretty sure i can handle this. All i ask is a chance. If you dotn want me on then drop me but you wont know if i am good enough to have unless i get at least one turn for you to see. That and the fact there is almsot no one who does anythign under emporor for me to try to join.

@ Sirp:

It's great to have your input here, and I hope you'll continue to provide us with advice. I sent the worker at Bursa to mine the cattle as it's a food-rich but shield-poor city and was concerned it wouldn't start producing anything anytime soon. Also, I don't really like the whip, which would probably be the best way to get its granary going. My teammates are free to veto, of course :)
Having followed all those RBD and RBE games, my very first instinct is normally to irrigate cattle, too.

Widdowmaker,

I beg of you, I implore you, to please play a game on emperor before you ask to play one in a succession game. I'm sure you are a good player, or will become one, but no one has any way of knowing that at the moment. There simply is not enough evidence to make any judgement on your playing skills.

Once you have played a few games on your own, then ask to join a SG, or start one yourself, at the difficulty level of your choosing. While you may feel confident in your skills, it should be pretty obvious that others on the forum are not convinced of them.

I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

That's exactly what I did yesterday.... :(

Cgannon, I really think you need to work on your opening turns a bit more. After 40 turns, your capital was size 3 and had produced very little -- 3 units?

Compare to RBP5, where, in a very similar starting situation, after 40 turns, we had a second city, 2 warriors exploring, and our capital was size 7, ready to produce a second settler the next turn.

The difference in power between these two openings is immense. RBP5 was more than twice as powerful after 40 turns than CG5. That kind of deficit takes a lot of work to recover from.

<soapbox>
I think far too many people blow through the early turns, because there's little to do, so they don't pay proper attention. This gets them into bigger holes than they should be in, so their games are inordinately difficult.

Yes, I stop micromanaging at some point. I think almost everyone does (unless it's an OCC or a 5CC or something). At a certain point (which varies for everyone), the time invested to do that doesn't become worth it -- at least not for every city. MMing a wonder-building city or your best city or two often continues....

But, at the bery beginning, when you only have one city? It *is* an OCC at that point, and you should watch it like a hawk.... It's not that hard to keep track of one city and I simply do not understand how/why people have such trouble with it.

</soapbox>

The soapbox was a general rant, not aimed directly at you, cgannon, but in your general direction, along with a lot of other people. Improving your opening 40 turns could literally move you up an entire difficulty level. It's that important.

Arathorn

PS I like your stance as regards widowmaker.....

Arathorn: I was about to interject that "well, we had Barbarian trouble at the beginning," but I now noticed that you did in RBP5 as well. So I stand corrected.

I agree with you that micromanaging your one or two cities is very important, and I have begun to make a concious effort to do so. Before ending any turn, I do a quick check in every city to make sure it's getting the most food, shields, and commerce it can, but more importantly, to watch for civil disorder.

My problem is that I believe that you guys make micromanaging decisions on a level much higher than mine - making sure the granary is built at the right time in the food cycle, for example. Or how to make the settler factor oscillate between size 6 and 4. I have a foggy notion of how to do this correctly, but it's not nearly concrete enough for me.

Thanks for your input, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

The early game is when I get the most fanatical on mm. Late game I get to the point that in my totally corrupt cities I will tell the governor to emphasis food / happy people.

I got a top ten in the qsc for GOTM#16. Why did I get that high? I researched pottery and built a granary quickly. Several exploring warriors for quick contact, and the big item was clearing the game for city growth. When I read a lot of the post I was in the minority who cleared the game square to get faster food. I had Moscow to the point of settler in 5, and worker in 2 (with city growing in 2). I had constantly changed the luxury tax, but it clearly paid on base on where I scored.

Thanks for the comments on the opening guys. The problem is that that part of the game is just hard to learn. Its very hard to see what people do from SGs, and also hard to see what they do from saves.

I think my opening has two main problems - happiness. Being my first game on Emperor level, I've forgetten about how important it is to use the slider early. My second mistake was not hooking up the dyes fast enough.

Do you guys know where I could work on my opening? Do they give detailed reports in the QSC, or just the save, because I think a report from some of the top winners would really help me...

Anyway, you're up swiftsure. :)

BTW, Its really amazing how fast a high-profile loss will point out the faults in your game. At first my pride was kind of hurt, especially when all the tips started coming in, but know its really helpful...:D

EDIT: Would any of you guys be interested in running an Emperor training game? I know a training game that high up sounds a little absurd, but I think that there are a bunch of SGers here who CAN win on that level, but don't win enough because of faults in their game like you guys pointed out.

I think what would really help would be a "Batter's Cage" type game where anyone who wants plays a set of turns, and then the good player reviews our turns. It would be time consuming, but I think it would really help me game. :)

Quick look pre turn and everything seems in order, only thing i change are the spears to warriors in iznik and bursa. i assume that they are there as second mp and warriors will do for that as well as being upgradable.

1325bc- scouting and working
1300bc-lux to 10% to stop istanbul rioting,iznik builds warrior which is sent to istanbul as second mp and starts another. bursa builds warrior and starts worker
1275bc- trade 113gp and w/m to korea for horseback riding and t/m
1250bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another,lux back to 0%. edrine builds spear and starts another.
1225bc- iznik builds warrior. at this point i decide to try for some quick territory expansion so it starts a settler
1200bc-scouting and working
1175bc-bursa builds warrior and starts settler. kyoto completes the oracle.
1150bc-edrine completes spear and starts granary,uskadur founded and starts warrior.
1125bc-scouting and working
1100bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another. trade 80gp and 7gpt to greece for maths and then trade maths to korea for philosophy,world map and 2gp
1075bc-scouting and working
1050bc-iznik builds settler and starts spear
1025bc-usukadur builds warrior and starts worker
1000bc-scouting and working
975bc- barb camp dispersed
950bc-bursa builds settler starts spear,istanbul builds settler starts spear
925bc-
900bc-edrine builds granary starts settler,usukadur builds worker starts temple,izmit built starts spear,adyin built starts spear.
875bc- antayla built starts spear
850bc- iznik builds spear starts temple,bursa builds warrior starts settler. trondheim builds collosus.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-850BC.SAV

Took a few chances by sending out some escorted settlers but we seem ok at the moment.

we have 8 cities compared to japan 9,korea 8, greece 7 and aztecs 5.

we are behind in tech to everyone by map making and code of laws but we can buy either of them but they are expensive.

we have a settler ready to settle where i would normally settle but it might be worthwhile heading north to the horsies.

VERY nice work there swiftsure. You really pumped out those settlers, lets just hope that our little psedo-farmer's gambit works well. I think once we get a few more settlers out, it should be lots of warrior production and preparing funds for the upgrade.

Just wondering what you guys think...do you think 10-15 swords would be enough to take over Japan? Or would that be too little?

Aggie -> Up Now
Me -> On Deck
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure

I'd be surprised if 15 swords can take out Japan's 9+ cities. I'm pretty sure they haven't been neglecting their military (the AI rarely does). However, the AI knows when we are, and will probably start demanding tribute, especially if we have a lot of gold lying around. I know it's not proven or even generally accepted, and maybe some of the more experienced players can give some input, but I think they tend to knock you around more if you have money. Whether or not they act on your refusal depends on how strong your military is.

4 new cities, woohoo :goodjob: ! I'd send the current settler to claim the horse up north and fill in the space between later. By the time we're ready to take it to the Aztecs and the Greeks, there will be too many knights or cav around to not have our own supply of horses. But it's all up to Aggie, of course :)
We probably need at least 15 swords for Japan, but we must definitely strike before pikes or, God forbid, Samurai (who don't require horses).

Edit: I was going to say we don't need to take all of Japan in one go, but under the variant rules, we of course do :p The alternative is simply to lie low, build up our empire and wait for sipahi.

One of the biggest this that will cause the AI to make demands - EMPTY CITIES. The latest LK world map game proved it again. A bunch of our cities were empty. Alliances and trade embargoes against us were coming like crazy. Since all our cities got defenders again - almost nothing has happened to us.

In GOTM#16 my problems with AI declaring war, and other issues all started late game. What happened then? I stripped defenders from my cities to keep the war effort going.

It won't stop the demands, but it will slow them down.

Fine. i will go join a low dif SG. OH! WAIT! There are none. Guess i am royaly screwed as i cant JOIN a low level SG to prove my skills an dhte high level ones wont take me cause i havent proven yet. Isint the point of a game ot be fun win or lose?ALL i aksed for was a CHANCE... Oh well there will be other games other than civ 3. (the AI really sucks in several areas. liek why do they kepe the military OUTSIDE their cities?)

cgannon64: Happiness at the start of a game is really no big deal at all. It's simple. As soon as people get unhappy and are about to go into civil disorder (but not after they've already done it!), just increase the luxury slider. That's all there is to it. What could be simpler?

Not hooking up luxuries early is *not* a mistake. The AI actually has it right this time. You know how it values luxuries by how many cities you have? Well that's actually a pretty good idea. When you have one city, luxuries aren't worth very much! Only 1 gold per turn or so. Sure, you want to hook them up at some point, but it's not a high priority task. Hooking them up is about as valuable as having a road on a tile that a citizen is working on.

jack merchant: if a city is food rich and shield poor it will umm...grow very big fast, and then it will be food rich and shield rich. Getting it to produce 1 more spt right now is a fairly short-term approach, and is probably costing you about 5 spt in 30 turns. Growth is far far more important than shields early on. Don't trade away your inheritance for a couple of shields.

-Sirp.

Widdowmaker, just because there isn't a lower level SG now, doesn't mean there won't be one soon. All the more true if you start one on your own. I'm very sure people will join. Just look at how quickly Sirp's Monarch level Trainer filled up!

BTW, many SG's ask you to prove your ability to play Emperor or Diety. Most (including us) do not. You don't need a SG to prove how well you play. And yes, the point is to have fun - I certainly did in CG4, even though the outcome wasn't great. However, some people would like to have players of approximately equal ability on their team.

Again, you don't have to prove anything to anyone, unless they specifically ask for it. You were honest about your experience, in your first post. You could have lied and said "I've beat Diety." but we all appreciate your honesty. I'm sure higher level players would be happy to have you in their future games if you come back and tell us "I've beaten Monarch, and I feel ready to try Emperor."

Again, if you don't like what you see on the menu, make your own dish!

Originally posted by Sirp
cgannon64: Happiness at the start of a game is really no big deal at all. It's simple. As soon as people get unhappy and are about to go into civil disorder (but not after they've already done it!), just increase the luxury slider. That's all there is to it. What could be simpler?


:goodjob: Yep. I just did a quick 20 minute QSC-type game, where I just did until about 0 AD. I had no luxeries, a few cities. All it took was stopping at the end of every turn and seeing how the lux slider will keep the peace. Sure, turns are 15 seconds longer, but its priceless, really. :)

Originally posted by widdowmaker
Fine. i will go join a low dif SG. OH! WAIT! There are none. Guess i am royaly screwed as i cant JOIN a low level SG to prove my skills an dhte high level ones wont take me cause i havent proven yet. Isint the point of a game ot be fun win or lose?ALL i aksed for was a CHANCE... Oh well there will be other games other than civ 3. (the AI really sucks in several areas. liek why do they kepe the military OUTSIDE their cities?)

Calm down man, don't quit Civ3 because of this. I'd be VERY willing to let you into a Monarch/Emperor SG if you just had some practice in the area. I'm sure other people will too. Think of it from our prospective: We just came off a tough loss. Obviously we don't want to lose this one, as it would really kill moral. We've all beaten Monarch and do OK on Emperor. Then you come in, having beaten Chieftain. Not to demean your skills, but if you came in saying you've beaten Monarch, we'd be alot more willing to let you in. I'm sure you are a fine Civ player, its just that, in a game like this, when we really want to win, we are a little less lenient when it comes to beaten levels.

Oh, and you don't need SGs to practice: try a Regent game against the AI. If you beat that, then try a Monarch. If you beat that then you should be ready for SGs. :)

Widdowmaker,

Another option you might want to consider (because it seems like you also want to have some sense of interaction with other players...) is playing a few of the Realms Beyond games (the completed ones will probably help you out the most) . After playing the game, you can compare your results and what you did with what other players did (by reading other people's reports on that particular game). This will give you experience playing at higher levels and instruction about how you could do better in future games.

The Realms Beyond site is at: http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/

Feel free to check it out (as well as their Tactics list...).

JMB

Or the GOTM. In fact, there is a Regent level game out on March 1 that should be right up your alley. PTW too.

Before I started, I switched Aydin to temple. Close to the border of Japan, we have to prevent flips.

IT: Washington builds the Pyramids

Turn 1 - 825 BC Istanbul finishes spear and starts settler. Konya founded.

Turn 2 - 800 BC Edrine builds settler and starts another.

IT: What are all those Japanese warriors doing crossing our terrain?

Turn 3 - 775BC Zzzzzz

Turn 4 - 750BC Zzzzzz

IT: Korea want 50 gold and w/m for w/m. I accept.

Turn 5 - 730BC Zzzzzz

Turn 6 - 710BC Istanbul finishes settler, starts spear. Antalya builds spear, starts temple.

Turn 7 - 690BC Zzzzzz

Turn 8 - 670BC Izmit builds warrior, starts worker. Bursa finishes settler, starts spear. Edrine finishes settler, starts spear.

Turn 9 - 650BC Adana founded, starts warrior

IT: Guess there's where they were going: Japan declares war to Greece.

Turn 10 - 630BC Instanbul finished spear, start settler. Sinop founded, starts worker.

IT: Korea declares war to the Greeks.

Turn 11 - 610BC We dispersed a barb camp: 25 gold.

IT: Greece and Aztecs get MA against Korea. WW1 and we're not involved yet!

Turn 12 - 590 BC Embassy with Aztecs (41 gold), Korea (42 gold) and apan (52 gold). Good for AI attitude against us and MA's...

IT: The Japs destroy Mycenae, north of Antalya :eek: Gives us more room to expand. Keep an eye on this location. It might have coal or rubber in future times. The AI tends to settle near these spots although the tech is not available to know for humans...

Turn 13 - 570BC We suddenly know the Celts, Spanish, Russians, Romans, Chinese, American, Scandinavian!! We are 10th (of 12) on the histograph. America, Japan, China, Scandinavia clearly lead. Japan, our neighbour, leads in culture: culture flip danger! I make a deal with Rome: Map Making, Code of Laws and Polytheism for 5 gpt, w/m and 240 gold. We get Literature, 33 gold and T/m for w/m from Scandinavia. I also make little w/m - t/m deals with China and Russia.

Turn 14 - 550BC Bursa and Edrine build spear, start TGL (please feel free to switch to settler/temple) and temple.

IT: Osaka, Japan, build the Great Lighthouse. Great to have on Pangea :crazyeye:

Turn 15 - 530BC Iznik finishes temple and starts settler.

Turn 16 - 510BC Istanbul finishes settler, starts spear. Uskadar finishes temple, starts settler. Izmit finishes worker, starts temple. Barb camp dispersed. Kafa founded near iron :) , starts temple.

IT: Aztecs and Greece get MA against Japan. Japanese soldiers turn to Azetc country. I let them go...they have no interest in Ottomania.

Turn 17 - 490BC Zzzzzzz. Hey, I quiet turn!

IT: The Celts and Japan sign a MA against the Aztecs. The Aztecs want our help against Japan. Too early for that. I decline and give world map: good for relations and our w/m is useless...

Turn 18 - 470BC Zzzzzzzz

Turn 19 - 450BC Adana finishes warrior, starts worker. Ankara founded near horses :) Starts with a worker.

IT: Spain and Celts have MA against Korea. The Great Wall built by...the Chinese of course ;)

Turn 20 - 430BC Switched Bursa to temple: I give us no chance on TGL..... Other are building it as well and they have a benefit (Emperor level).


The world is at war and we are Switzerland. I like it! Here are my suggestions:

- Keep the peace as much as possible.
- Keep on expanding until all jungle is ours. We are industrious, so jungle is gone in no-time.
- Build temples near the borders, especially near Japan! EDIT: please switch all temples to libraries (if it doesn't cost any shields). Thanks cromagnon for this hint.
- You might want to check if you can trade things. We know a lot of other civs, so tech may be cheaper now. It gets cheaper with every civ we know that has it...
- The Great Library was a dream, but I think not a realistic one...
- I think our military is decent. For defence, but certainly not for attack.
- Please, do give in to demands from the AI.
- You might want to have Instanbul build another settler.

430 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-430_BC.SAV)

Great work, Aggie. The wars will almost certainly help us, except for the potential for GL's completing Wonders for the AI.

I agree with all your points. We can leave it for now, unless we know for sure (from embassies) that the bad guys are close to getting it. Who knows, maybe it can become a Sistine. And we ought to establish as many embassies as possible, because it's cheaper earlier.

My only suggestion is that perhaps we ought to build libraries instead of temples if we want to prevent culture flips. More culture, and cheaper for a scientific civ. Plus, more science!

I can't look at the save until tomorrow-is Japan TOO powerful? Should we try to get on them sooner rather than later? Did we get the gems to the north, by any chance? A screenshot! My kingdom for a screenshot!! :)

CGannon is up.

Originally posted by cromagnon
My only suggestion is that perhaps we ought to build libraries instead of temples if we want to prevent culture flips. More culture, and cheaper for a scientific civ. Plus, more science!


Yes! You're right about that! Sorry, I forgot that the Ottomans are scientific...

I feel that trying to get TGL could end in a waste of shields. At least 6 other civs are researching it and will cascade to Hanging Gardens, etc.... We probably won't be able to profit from such a cascade...

If we have enough cities, we can always switch it to palace as a pre-build for an early Middle Ages wonder, possibly even Sun Tzu's.

We are not the only peaceful civ. America and China are not displayed here. But the rest is involved in WW1...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SG5ww1.JPG

Our recent growth. I didn't want to place Kafa on top of the Iron. That's why it's displaced...

The Japanese have been using our territory to get to the Greeks and now to the Aztecs... I thought it was OK, didn't want to make them mad. Not a very frightening army IMHO. I planned the settler one tile right of the brabarian camp. It's joined by a spear. Please check if one of these is automated!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5430BC.JPG

Nice land grab. Looks like we're going to need a ton of workers to a) hook up resources & lux, b) clear the jungle, and c) improve tiles. A couple of settlers ought to go toward Greece.

Here's a silly question. Will patching to 1.21 (which just came out) screw up the game?

Er, yeah... for me at least, since the new patch is only for the US version.

Looks like we can eventually build the FP in our current territory if we ever get some of that jungle cleared.. I'm very happy we now have horses in our territory, even if it'll take a while to get them online. Small nitpick: Adana might imho have been better off one tile east on the river. But, on the whole, great going :goodjob:

edit: is the worker next to Uskudar clearing jungle ? Might it not be better to improve those bonus grassland tiles to the south first ?

Alright guys, we'll need a vote on this 1.21f problem. Should we wait until there is a version? I think that would be best, so there is no discrepency.

I know I'm up, but I'm not sure what to do about the patch issue. I downloaded it, but haven't installed yet. I'm not sure about the patch issue; like, I'm not sure if one is on 1.21 and one is on 1.14, if that will mess it up. I need senior advice here.

About the actual game: I think now we should play peaceful for a while. With the world at war, we do NOT want to get involved. Declaring war on Japan could bring everyone against us. I say we play peaceful and build up the landgrab and out army. Then, when the dust settles, take those weak civs! :yeah:

I got the save. I think I'm going to play tomorrow, when this patch issue is resolved. Sorry for arriving late, I was working on a movie with my friend. :ack:

Well, I'm 'senior' in one way :D but my advice is to hold off on installing the patch, especially as Sirp has been having all sorts of problems with it. Play the game with 1.14 tomorrow, and I'll do the same. Our European teammates, particularly the Dutch, may not be able to upgrade to 1.21, because it's "for the US version." The only unbalancing effect that the patch may have is the Tech we get when we advance (how cool would it be to start with Feudalism?). This in itself ought to be a reason not to mess with the patch until all of us can patch up.

I'm with you on the peace, brother. The question is, how long can we stay un-involved? The other problem is if Japan grows TOO big, they'll be very hard to deal with, especially when they have Samurai.

I can't install he patch yet:

- I'm from Europe
- When I can use the patch, GOTM17 won't sypport it...

Originally posted by jack merchant
Looks like we can eventually build the FP in our current territory if we ever get some of that jungle cleared.. I'm very happy we now have horses in our territory, even if it'll take a while to get them online. Small nitpick: Adana might imho have been better off one tile east on the river. But, on the whole, great going :goodjob:

edit: is the worker next to Uskudar clearing jungle ? Might it not be better to improve those bonus grassland tiles to the south first ?

Thanks for your comment.

We can get the jungle cleared guite quickly, no worries! And I already have settler groups clearing the jungle, but you are right about the shielded grassland.

I see that I displaced Kafa and Ankara (I do not agree about Adana). Ankara must have been the urge to get there before the AI...

EDIT: cgannon64: I know that you tried to comfort us in CG4, when you said that it's normal to be behind at monarch. We're doing a lot better now ;)

Originally posted by Aggie

- When I can use the patch, GOTM17 won't sypport it...

Same thing here. Because that makes two of us (me and Aggie) in the GOTM, DON'T INSTALL THE PATCH. I can't install it until I finish the GOTM, and that will obviously not be today! So we're going to play this in 1.14 until Aggie and I, and whoever else in this game is playing the GOTM finish that game. OK?

BTW, I'm downloading the save now, I'll play today. Damn, this is alot on the table: SG and GOTM...:D Lots of Civving today! :yeah:

Alright, here we are. My 10 turns. Only 10 from now on people, because they are getting kind of long.

(1) Game loaded up, I have to get my bearings. This is one of the problems with SGs - unless you load up each save that each player posts, even when its not your turn, its really easy to be confused. Alright. Priority during my reign will be worker production. We have to connect those cities and clear that jungle. Also it will be settlers and infrastructure. I'm ready to dive in. Contstruction is still pretty high priced, about 10gpt and some other minor stuff. We could research it in 14 turns, but I don't want the waste. I'll wait a little while longer to get Construction. Alright, I end my turn, making minor build changes here and there.

(2) I've never had a Diety ROP (copyright Sirian ;)) before. Anyway, lots of builds everywhere. Bursa riots, I put lux up to 10%, only 4 less gpt. We seem to have a Spear exploring??? Whatever. I think our jungle cities that can't grow over size 2 are going to have to pump out some workers so they can clear that mess. Hmm, I notice that Iznik is working on the GrLib at 100 turns. I'm afraid that's a pipe dream, I switch to a worker. Man, we really need workers. Everything seems to be in a long infra build though...its alright. No one expects jungle to be instant producers anyway. :)

(3) Russia declares war on the Eggies. Oh well...:D Grr, there is an Aztec archer standign right where I want to build a city. I guess I'll wait. Pretty much movement this turn, as we have about 3 or 4 settlers in the field.

(4) Korea's getting the dogpile now, as Rome joins in the fray. Familiar? ;) Four workers working on clearing jungle around Sinop. Damn it! That Aztec archer fortified on the city spot! Argh. Well, I guess I'll just found it somewhere else. I tell you, these AIs CAN be very smart. Now that the price has significantly dropped, I trade Construction for our WM, 2gpt and 290g with Lincoln. He's so far away we probably won't feel the effects. We start on Monarchy at min sci.

(5) Temple->Worker in Edrine. Nothing really but movement and clearing of jungle.

(6) To be honest, I'm feeling this game, I really am. With all this jungle cleared, and with the landgrab done. Long term thinking here, but I think that we won't be going to war until Knights at the earliest. Part of me wants to delay it until Cavs (or Ansai, that's the name, right?) but we ARE going for Conqeust here, and starting in the late Middle Ages is bad. Very bad.

(7) That evil Aztec archer moves. Yes! The Spanish finish the GLib! ARGH!!! Oh well, we didn't really have a chance anyway. We have tech parity with most of the civs, and only down Republic with a few.

(8) Nothing but movement.

(9) Rome/Aztecs MA on Celts. We actually expand our palace! :crazyeye: There is massive barb uprising that I can't see by Sinop.

(10) Final turn. We should only play 10 from now on, as they are getting pretty long. Salonika and Mugla built. I think we should go with a dense build for the jungle. Please build a city on the spot north of Antalya, on the spot where the settler is already standing. I think we should stress workers and settlers from now on. We have two definete jungle clearing teams, but we need more. Good luck! :)

Here is a screenshot of the current empire. In yellow is our most important area of expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5endancient.jpg

And finally, the save!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-250BC.sav

Cromagnon -> Up Now
Jack -> On Deck
Swiftsure
Aggie
Me

Originally posted by cgannon64

Part of me wants to delay it until Cavs (or Ansai, that's the name, right?) but we ARE going for Conqeust here, and starting in the late Middle Ages is bad. Very bad.



Uh, please take a look at LK38 - The Germany *DEITY* Panzer conquest game. We did not START until TANKS and had no problem. You have Siphai - you should rip the AI to shreds and win easily with the killer unit.

Originally posted by LKendter

Uh, please take a look at LK38 - The Germany *DEITY* Panzer conquest game. We did not START until TANKS and had no problem. You have Siphai - you should rip the AI to shreds and win easily with the killer unit.

Thanks for the input LK. It really all depends on the situation. We'll have to see if they AIs are still churnign out military by Knights (Japan has about 20 swords roaming in our territory) or if they are weakened. If we start with Knights, it may be rushed anyway. After all, we have no offensive military to speak of and we aren't even done expanding into that jungle yet.

Got it. I think it's time to slow down on the settlers (two more on the way I see), and build workers. I'm going to switch temples to libraries, as they are cheaper and produce more culture.

10 turns it is.

And we'll all keep the patch at 1.14f.

Inherited turn: Despotism, 144g, +27gpt. Lux 10%, Science 10%, Monarchy due in 34.
Konya, Kafa, Aydin & Izmit switched from temples to libraries. Virtually everyone has Monarchy, but we can't afford it. Currency is 144+14gpt, but I can't sell it to anyone else because they are dirt poor. America has monopoly on Republic. Barbarians near Sinop noted. Our new cities will be near there too.
IBT: Greece demands (and gets) 25 gold and TM. Japs and Greeks stream through our territory.

[1] 230BC: Workers machete. Denizli founded N of Antalya, start spear. I slow down Istanbul's growth a tiny bit, because it will go into disorder soon, and I want library built. I give Celts Construction for their WM. Why does Spain always start out next to at least 4 spices? As we're not going to war with Japan or Greece any time soon, I sign RoP's with them and net 12 gold. I get Currency from China for 141+9gpt, which advances us an age and gets us Monotheism. America still won't give up Republic, so I give him Mono for Monarchy + 10gpt. Republic due in 40. I trade Currency to those who don't have it, getting most of our gold back, plus a Japanese worker. Note that I sell Currency to the Scientific civs only after selling Monotheism, so as to not degrade the value of that tech, which I've sold to anyone with money. We're now 498+40gpt (a lot of gpt deals made - let's hope they don't reneg).
IBT: Aztecs and Celts sign peace. Barbs approach our new city.

[2] 210BC: Brusa builds settler -> Spear. Settler & warrior go north. Edrine worker ->worker.
IBT: Barb horseman kills our vet spear fortified in our city, and takes 33 gold.

[3] 190BC: I abandon Denizli, as two more horses are about to attack, and no defenders nearby. Istanbul library-> worker. Uskudar spear -> spear, which moves west. Horses hooked up to the north, but no road to capital.

[4] 170BC: Edrine worker -> spear.
IBT: Battles rage across our lands

[5] 150BC: Antalya settler -> spear. It goes with a warrior north. Istanbul worker -> spear. China and Greece now have Republic, but 'tis pricey. I'll wait one more turn .
IBT: Greeks settle to our north :mad:

[6] 130BC: Iznik library -> spear. Bursa spear -> worker. It will riot next turn, so I make an entertainer for one turn. China still has the best price on Republic, so I take it for 589+14gpt. Unfortunately, no one else has more than 20 gold, so I can't sell it for anything useful. Feudalism in 40 (no the slider doesn't help).
IBT: Korea and Russia sign peace. Lots of dead bodies piling up.

[7] 110BC: Sinop Galley -> Library. Edrine spear -> spear. Bolu founded to the NE, start spear. Workers machete.
IBT: more dead bodies.

[8] 90BC: Istanbul spear -> worker. Uskudar spear -> Barracks. Bursa worker -> worker. Spears shuffle around to outlying cities.

[9] 70BC: Izmit library -> barracks. Aydin library -> worker. Urfa founded north of Istanbul, start spear. Bingol founded far north, start spear.
IBT: Korea offers RoP and alliance vs Greeks, I drop the Greek part, and get 6 gold and WM out of him. Spain moves a warrior near our workers.

[10] 50 BC: Iznik spear -> barracks. Edrine spear -> warrior. Istanbul worker -> worker (it's not very happy, so I might as well crank out workers here). Bursa worker -> barracks. I make RoP with Spain, getting 30 gold (don't want to risk our workers).

We're par with everyone for tech, even a bit ahead, but no one can buy Republic for more than 20 gold. Iron at Aydin will be hooked up in 2-3 turns, hence the switch from spears to warriors, which will become swords. Getting our horses and gems hooked up will take a long while through the jungle. My plan was to send spears to the outlying cities, and recall the warriors there to be upgraded. We have one warrior in korea, 5 moves away from a goody hut (we have RoP). Who knows? I haven't tried building Hanging Gardens, as everyone else is already. It looks like our westernmost city (Kafa) might be best for FP, but I didn't start it yet. I don't think there's a role for any more settlers, BTW.

The Japanese have good offense (swords, no horses), while the Greeks have good defense (hoplites, horses, no iron). Hopefully, they will beat on each other until one of them runs out of gas, and we can swoop in like vultures. We have 11 more turns of RoP with each, as I figured it would improve relations a bit, and we weren't about to ask them to leave. If our military is strong, we may not want to renew.

Good luck, Jack Merchant!
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-50BC.sav

and the screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS2.jpg

IIRC, I'm up - and, I got it ! :)

edit: heh, you edited your post while I was busy replying :)

After the unfortunate demise of the caveman Sultan Cro-magnon, the Ottoman Grand Vizier goes looking for a suitable replacement and ends up with the mysteriously named Sultan Jack. Persuaded by the vizier that it is really not good for the state of the empire to spend all of his days in the seraglio, Sultan Jack takes charge.
Ppreturn: Make some changes, notably Iznik and Edrine to workers and Istanbul to temple. Our domestic advisor is happy, saying hail to the Sultan baby ! Must be glad I got her out of the harem... I also veto the 'bring back the warriors'-scheme as Sultan Jack does not care for regular swordsmen

30 bc : (1) Establish embassy with China, building the HG, due in 15, and researching at 90% rate. Also with Scandinavia, who have HG due in 4 and are researching at 60%. I get a ROP with the vikings for their world map annd sell our new and improved world map all around for 107 gp total. Some worker movement.

Interturn Wang Kon and Isabella kiss and make up

10 bc (2) Edrine worker-> library, Iznik worker -> market Antalya spear -> library
At the end of the turn though, I decide to revolt to monarchy. I do not think we can support a republic just yet due to all around lack of happiness infrastructure. Monarchy at least has reduced corruption and 3 mp's so our cities can grow a bit once irrigation is in place. We draw 5 turns of anarchy. All cities are rearranged to prevent disorder.

10 AD (3) A quiet round. Greek archers continue to fight Jap swords, losing most of the time. Let's hope they keep at it.

30 AD (4) Good news, I think, as China declares war on the Americans
Istanbul riots. I keep forgetting that cities do grow under anarchy. At least no production was lost. Kafa starves to 1.

50 AD (5) Aztecs and Koreans sign a peace treaty. Rome finishes the Hanging Gardens, America starts the Sistine Chapel (crap. I love that wonder, and we'll need either a miracle or a GL to get it now). A brave Greek archer near Salonika who survived a sword attack with 1 hp left last turn kills another sword. The Korean goody hut gives us..... barbs.

70 AD (6) Spain joins the race for Sistine's. Americans also start Sun Tzu. Greece and Japan sign a peace treaty. Rome and Korea sign a peace treat, ending their utterly phony war. Pity about Greece and Japan though. At least Japan is still fighting the Aztecs, and Greece the Koreans.

90 AD (7) We emerge in Monarchy. Slider set to 8.1.1, netting us 21 gpt. I buy a new Japanese WM for 30 gp and then sell it on for a net profit of 78 gp. Workers continue to emphasise irrigation

110 AD (8) Nothing much. China has engineering and America and Spain feudalism/theology, but we can't buy either of them.

130 (9) Entertainer hired to prevent Istanbul rioting. Bursa spear->library, Peace and quiet reigns throughout the land. I decide to hurry the temple in Istanbul for 128 gp. Our capital needs to grow.

150 (10) Greece (and several others) now has feudalism and theology. It is still out of our price range though. They have also gotten around to hooking up their iron. I try to sell our world map around but it's not very valuable merchandise at the moment.

This was a quiet turn overall. I would have preferred to go to republic but I suspect it simply wouldn't have been viable as the unit support costs and the loss of MP would have meant trouble for our income and for our jungle cities. I did hook up the iron; maybe I should have waited until we had some warriors but we only had (and have) one town with a barracks anyway. Not the recipe for wholesale military buildup. I think the following players will have to continue working on infrastructure. With a dedicated effort we can get the horses and gems online fairly quickly if you build a road straight north from Uskudar. We also need a harbor to buy some luxes; maybe one of the coastal towns can be changed over. Our ROP deals with Japan and Greece expire next turn, I suggest we extend them to maintain friendly relations for now with our future subjects :D
the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-150AD.SAV) Good luck, swiftsure !

Nice trading guys. My only qualm was that you didn't revolt straight away, cromagnon, but I see Jack did, so its alright. Good to see we had tech parity, and that we are only down a tech or two now.

I think top priority now should be infra building, worker production, jungle clearing, and hooking up those horses. With the horses hooked up, we can build some nice knights to go to war, and if we don't want to go to war just yet, we can build up a stockpile of knights to upgrade to Siphais. :)

Go swiftsure!

I can't see how I forgot. I was telling myself to do it, but must've had a brain fart.

I think we could've done well in Republic. With the slider up one or two more notches, we probably would have gotten more than enough income (most of our cities are on rivers) to support our measly army and more to come.

I don't know cromagnon. After all, Monarchy is the ultimate war government, and there will be alot of war in our future. :p A switch from Republic to Monarchy for war might be worse then Monarchy all the way.

Swiftsure is SKIPPED, its been about 26 hours now.

Aggie -> Up Now
Me
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure (Benched until he posts again in this thread)

'got it'

If all goes well, I'm going to play tonight

Guys, I can assure you, you want to go into Republic. Basically, there are three good government types in Civilization III :

Despotism - good because you can be in it without having to discover it! If it wasn't for this, there'd be no civilization at all!
Anarchy - good because when you're in it you're on your way to....
Republic - what everyone wants to be in! It's good for war, it's good for peace, it's good for everything.

If you're playing an Always War game, then you might want to be in monarchy. Almost anything less than this and you want to be in a republic. See GM1, we're playing on Deity, and we're at constant war (as in literally constant, it's a game rule), with at least one civilization, and we're doing great in republic.

Ok ok, if you're religious or if you're sure about constant peace, you *might* want to go into democracy.

-Sirp.

@Sirp

I am a republic fan, too. However, we have ~8 jungle towns with no trade and no temples which will starve at size 2 until we get some jungle cleared. Some of our bigger towns don't have temples yet. We have one lux and no markets. We don't have any trade routes yet either. Under these circumstances, I just didn't see how a republic could be viable yet. Or would it have been better to stay in despotism until we could afford to change ?

jack: You do have lots of jungle villages, but you also have some towns on good productive tiles: Istanbul, Bursa, Antalya, Edrine, Uskudar and so forth. You should move over to republic, but also make it a priority to construct infrastructure buildings: Marketplaces and Libraries in these towns.

At any rate, I would advise against going to Monarchy. You'd definitely want to switch to Republic, I'd say now, but even if you say in a little while, you do not want the double-anarchy dose.

-Sirp.

Sorry guys, mother was rushed into hospital saturday.

No problem swiftsure. My best wishes for your mother, I hope she recovers soon.

Originally posted by Sirp
At any rate, I would advise against going to Monarchy. You'd definitely want to switch to Republic, I'd say now, but even if you say in a little while, you do not want the double-anarchy dose.

-Sirp.

Reading jack merchant's 10 turn summary, I conclude that we alredy are in Monarchy. So that would mean a double-anarchy to go to republic...

That's correct. It may have been :smoke:, but once we are in a position to take advantage of republic (say with both luxes and all our cities hooked up) it may be better to take the double anarchy anyway. Can we get a consensus here ?

Having tried both Monarchy and Republic in several games, I'd say that the benefits of Republic outweigh the negatives. The increased income (from commerce and reduced corruption) in Republic would allow us not only to pay for the troops, but we could also use the lux slider to keep people happy until we get our gems hooked up and marketplaces built.

I'd take the hit on the double anarchy, and probably sooner rather than later.

jack merchant, I was merely reacting on Sirp's remark, not judging your moves. Maybe I would have done the same, I can't tell. I was trying to get an answer to the following: should we switch to republic on short notice or not. I would say NO and that's the way I'm going to play the next 10 turns.

EDIT: As this is a major decision point in the game, I will wait untill AT LEAST 10 pm CET (4 pm in New York...). If I do not have enough reactions by then, I will wait another day...

I didn't think you were judging me (also reacting to Sirp's remark) - though I wouldn't have had a problem with it if you did :) For now, the reasons not to move to republic yet still apply, and it's not like we are going to lose a wonder race over the double anarchy. Either way is fine with me though - I have full confidence in you :p I'd also say go ahead and play today if you have time, it's nice to keep things moving.

P.S. I got my first emperor win over the weekend, but that was quite a different kettle of fish. Having 3 luxes in reach without even the need to fight over them made things noticeably easier.

We don't have Republic yet, correct? If we have it, then I think we should revolt straight-away. But if we don't, we are going to have to spend the rest of our time in Monarchy until we get it.

I like Republic and Monarchy, it doesn't really matter to me. The benefits of it have already been pointed out.

I think we should get that jungle cleared fast though, so those potential productive cities can back up our economy, and fast. :)

Oh, and sorry if I seemed rude by skipping you swiftsure, I had no idea...

Go Aggie! :)

We do have republic. Cromagnon bought it during his turn.

I obtained Republic from China in my 6th turn. For some reason (and I can't think of any now) I didn't revolt. It's not like I was going for a wonder or anything like that :rolleyes:. Like I said, pure brain fart. Or maybe I was enjoying the view of green and red soldiers battling it out...

Again, my tendency would be to go for Republic now, since going for it later may mean forfeiting a wonder.

Alright, we should revolt. That double anarchy will be tough though. How many turns did we pull on the first one?

If they add up to less then 8, we got damn lucky! :ack:

Tough decision, but I'm going into anarchy. :( After our discussion I think it's better to get to republic asap. If there's a time we can afford anarchy, it's now...

Turn 1, 2, 3 170BC - 210BC The Celts and Japan made peace. America demands t/m and 37 gold. They get it.

Turn 4 - 230BC We get in republic. Only 4 turns of anarchy. Lucky, I guess. Lux to 20%, science to 0%, lone scientist in Iznik, preventing city from rioting...

Turn 5 - 250BC :sleep:

Turn 6 - 260BC :sleep:

Turn 7 - 270BC Edrine builds library, start marketplace. Lux to 30%. Lone scientist in Bingol

IT: Washington finished Sistine chapel...

Turn 8 - 280BC :sleep:

Turn 9 - 290BC :sleep:

Turn 10 - 300BC :sleep:

All in all a quiet turn. I decided to have groups of settler cut down the jungle. People, let's have the luxuries connected to our empire asap. It generates money (lux slider can get to a lower rate - saving us money!). I suspect that we are WAY behind now. Let's see how we can catch up :) If we can :(

300 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-300AD.SAV)

Originally posted by jack merchant
'....P.S. I got my first emperor win over the weekend.....'

Congratulations :goodjob: I beat you by three weeks. My 2nd emperor win was GOTM 16...

@'Deity' lurkers: we very much apreciate your input. Thanks for all the tips so far and I'm very keen to hear what you think of our situation now and how to get out of it (although I think we do a 100% better job than CG4 :) ).

Good work Aggie. Sorry that you got stuck with a boring set. ;)

Me ->Up now, got it
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure (Reinstated)
Aggie

I'll play after I finish my homework, one last thing. :)

God damn Americans :mad:. Oh, wait, I AM American :blush: :)
We'll catch up, don't worry. What's our gpt now? Can we research anything on our own?

I think we'll need at least 20 turns to build up infrastructure and units.

Edit: By the way, I hope you didn't feel pressured to go to Republic. I firmly believe that each successive ruler is ultimately responsible for any and all decisions during his/her reign. While you can solicit advice, it shouldn't be so much of a democracy. We're a team, and we'll back you up on any decision made.

Originally posted by cromagnon
God damn Americans :mad:. Oh, wait, I AM American :blush: :)
We'll catch up, don't worry. What's our gpt now? Can we research anything on our own?

I think we'll need at least 20 turns to build up infrastructure and units.

Of course. We should have high gpt, I'll have to check. And the infra build is a must, as well as a jungle clearing build.

Trust me, a war with Knights has much less of a chance then a war with Siphais. :p

Off to play LITERALLY this second. ;)

Here are my 10. Lots of trading!

(Inheriited) We apparently can't go below 30% lux, which is very bad. We are currently at 0% Science, with 24gpt a turn and Fuedalism due in 24 turns. Tech prices on Feudalism are still very high, despite the common knowledge. We unfortuantely have only DYES has the currently attainable luxury. War is definetely going to be necessary. After this long set of light jazz...erm, this long set of infra builds, we're going to have to go with lots of military. But, unfortunately, we have to get Feudalism to get Chivalry! :mad: (Sorry, my mom's been playing too much Light Rock stations in the car...:crazyeye: )

(1) The question is posed: Do you break the bank (at least half our gpt) to get Feudalism? I think so. With Marketplaces being built round the nation, we could afford it. Feudalism bought from the Vikings for WM, 254g, and 14gpt. A tough trade, but we need it. Problem number two: We have almost NO barracks! This is bad, especially with war in our future. I tell you, we don't look like a warmongering nation. Good, apparently no one has Chivarly, or at least no one I contacted.

(2) Note: My current policy now is that every city builds either a Barracks, at least that is the usual case. We need a Veteran army. I could be building an army of MedInf, but I figure its best to get this Infra out of the way and then build Knights.

(3) Here is the main reason I didn't want to go into a Republic: NO MPs!!! A 30% lux tax is killing us...but I guess it was worth it for the better economy, right? YES!!! Gems are hooked up. Time to MM and see if we can drop the lux rate a bar. Sorry, never mind. They are hooked up, but not to our capital. The two lonely workers battle to cross the jungle now...

(4) Nothing but worker movement.

(5) Wow, I'm really starting to remember how good Republic is. Simple roading and clearing of jungle has bumped our GPT to 21! Several civs have Chivalry, but aren't willing to deal. Oh well, just let the price drop I guess.

(6) Battles rage across the Aztec Mountains. GPT up to 30 now. I can't wait until the Gems are hooked up and we can drop lux, we'll have a killer economy.

(7) GPT up to 33. :D Chivalry is still not on the trading block.

(8) Nothing. I think the main reason Chivalry won't be traded is that we don't have enough gold in our bank to give them...they love pure gold.

(9) Nothing.

(10) Isabella demands a petty sum, something like WM and 30g, we give it to her. Chivalry is up for trade! Again, I break the bank to get it, I give the Vikings WM, 180g, and 29gpt for it. Yikes. Sounds rough, but our economy should recover for two reasons: Our past 20gpt deal should be expiring in the next 10 turns or so, and we should hook up gems very soon. When gems get hooked up, we should be able to lower lux by 10%, which nets alot of gold (16gpt last time I checked). We currently can't build knights, but they'll come online simultaneously with our Gems.

Notes: As soon as the jungle one tile North of Konya is cleared BUILD A ROAD ASAP!!! That road gives us Horses and Gems! Also, I suggest Barracks and Knights be built around our nation, mostly by the big industry cities, of course. All military units should be gathered in Iznik or Aydin, just for simplicities sake. Japan is our first target, no? ;) Besides that, just keep on scouring the trade market. Good luck.

And the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5_400AD.sav

You're up cromagnon!

I got 5 turns of anarchy, which means 9 total. Not too bad. Our income in monarchy was 22 gpt at 8.1.1, so the improvement is not great yet but will no doubt get better.
Americans finishing Sistine's: yikes ! they only started it halfway during my turn, meaning they built it in ~12 turns or they got a GL. We'll probably need a palace prebuild to get any kind of wonder soon.
ANyone fancy taking on Japan with chivalry around ? :D

Originally posted by jack merchant

ANyone fancy taking on Japan with chivalry around ? :D

Of course! From what I can tell based on their troop movements, their army is large, but its still swords, mostly. If we can flank them with Knights, it should be no problem.

Um, they have a 20% discount on the Samurai cost, meaning they only take 56 shields to build. Plus the first time they win a fight will be a golden age. We'll need to hit them fast and hard, something I don't see us doing yet. On the bright side, they have no horses that they could upgrade.

Smooth... Jazz.... CD101.9.... Is that what your mom listens to? :D

I got it, and will try to play tonight (may need to go back to work later).

If the Japs are still fighting the Aztecs, they will be a relatively easy target. It's unfortunate that we can't extort them for tech, though. :p Silly variant rule.

Originally posted by jack merchant
Um, they have a 20% discount on the Samurai cost, meaning they only take 56 shields to build. Plus the first time they win a fight will be a golden age. We'll need to hit them fast and hard, something I don't see us doing yet. On the bright side, they have no horses that they could upgrade.

:eek: Totally forgot about those Samurai. That might change our plans.

What's the consensus here, do we go for Japan, Greece, Aztecs, or Germany? Japan is the only one that shares a full border with us, but they also have Samurai.

@ cromagnon: Yup. But I'm trying to convert her to KROCK and Q104! :D

Inherited turn: We're a Republic, lux @ 30%, one lone scientist giving us Engineering in 40 turns. We have 0 gold in the treasury, +4 gpt, because we're giving 43 gpt to the Vikings. Bursa is rioting, but now has a taxman. I change Istanbul to cathedral, almost everywhere else has barracks or libraries set. I renew our RoP treaties with everyone (including Japan - we're not strong enough, nor will we be in 20 turns), and squeeze 28+2gpt out of them. I give Aztecs Chivalry for Theology + 2 gpt and some change and RoP. We still lack embassies with several smaller civs, who might give us some gold for RoP.

[1] 410AD: Bolu Library -> Barracks. Sinop would have rioted next turn, except we hooked up our gems :). I micromanage a few tiles that were unworked, and we now get 9gpt.
IBT: Vikings are building Leo's, in addition to the Spanish.

[2] 420AD: Workers hack & slash. I switch MI in Bursa to knight.

[3] 430AD: Iznik marketplace -> barracks. Antalya barracks -> marketplace. I decline to trade Greek ivory for our dyes, as Alex wants all our gold and gpt for it (bastard). Still, one more lux (total 3) would be greatly benificial, especially with so many marketplaces coming online.
IBT: Celts declare war on China (I wouldn't have done that, Brennus). Greeks have knights in the field now.

[4] 440AD: Uskudar Barracks -> knight. Drop lux to 20%, getting 31 gpt. However, I have to make a taxman in Sinop, and I switch barracks to temple.
IBT: Spain & America join against China.

[5] 450AD: Edrine aqueduct -> knight. I give Brennus Currency for 83 gold. I get Engineering from Russia for 87 gold & WM. Printing Press in 40. Now we're behind Education & Invention from half our enemies, and they won't give it up. I try again to trade dyes for ivory with Greece, and get it down to 75+2

[6] 460AD: Salonica library -> temple (may want to make this barracks). I take the ivory deal with Alex, as Istanbul is about to riot next turn when it grows. Odd, the unhappy faces there have not changed. *scratches head* I shuffle some tiles back and forth, and now there's an extra happy face :confused:. Dropping lux would still require some entertainers/taxmen, so I keep it at 20%, but our income is now 41gpt.
IBT: Greece gets the Aztecs in on the Korea-pounding action.

[7] 470AD: I disband two regular warriors in non-bordering towns, to cut down on costs. Like Jack, I'm not a huge fan of non-veteran troops.

[8] 480AD: Hack & Slash

[9] 490AD: Iznik barracks -> aqueduct. Embassies in Entremont (crappy city) & Rome (size 12, 6 defenders, Sun Tzu's in 7). I take Brennus' WM & 9 gold for RoP. Ceasar is scraping pennies. I decide that Uskudar needs an aqueduct more than a knight at this point (esp since it has so many unworked tiles), but it's greyed out. I can think of no reason this is so - the box is full, growth in 9999...:confused:
IBT: America and China sign peace, Korea and Greece sign peace. Toledo builds Sun Tzu's (I was hoping Japan would, so we'd get it sooner). Then the kicker:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5Threat.jpg
:mad:
Of course, I comply, but it took me a long time to admit that it wasn't worth the fight. We have neither the troops, nor the money to get people to fight for us.

[10] 500AD: Edrine knight -> knight. Mugla library -> worker.

Here's the tech summary: Greece, Spain, China, America, and Scandinavia are the leaders, up by Invention, Education, and Printing Press (doh!). Rome has Invention and PP, but I can't get Education from anyone. Everyone else (including Japan) is equal to us.

We have a 14 gpt deal ending with Scandinavia next turn. RoP can be signed with Ceasar when he has any money. We have 69+45 gpt, PP due in 36. If we break even on research, we get PP in 19. Russia and America are the only civs we don't have embassies with.

As far as war with Japan goes, we have a RoP expiring in 10, but he also forced the dyes from us (20 more turns). The good news is, I haven't seen a single samurai. We're weak compared to everyone except Russia and Celts. We're still woefully underpowered.

Good luck Jack Merchant! Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-500AD.sav)

And the screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS3.jpg

I understand that we had to give in to the demands of Japan and give away dyes. But now we can't attack for 20 turns, or else or rep is gone. Very bad thing in our position, because buying with gold per turn will be almost impossible. On the bright side: a lot of AI civs broke so many deals, that gpt trading between them also suffered. Can't be a bad thing.

We also could have declared war and tried to bribe a couple of neighbours to join the war. In order to have the attention of the Japanese spread. But I agree with cromagnon's decision :)

EDIT: once we attack a civ (preferably Japan, being small), we must protect our resources/luxuries against pilaging and pilage the resources of the enemy. This will keep them form building a samurai-army!!

We're doing quite well, I must add.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Edit: By the way, I hope you didn't feel pressured to go to Republic. I firmly believe that each successive ruler is ultimately responsible for any and all decisions during his/her reign. While you can solicit advice, it shouldn't be so much of a democracy. We're a team, and we'll back you up on any decision made.

Don't worry, I made the desicion myself ;) After constructive comment of all of you and Sirp.

Got it and playing.

Edit :I just checked Uskudar and the aqueduct somehow got caught up in the build queue. It's changed now. A further reason not to go to war with Japan is that the trade route to Greece runs through them.

Good to see I'm not the only one on the forum at a crazy hour. :crazyeye:

Good job Cromagnon, that was some nice trading. I don't think tech parity is really possible right now, because those AIs on the other island are all trading freely. BUT, I think if we keep tech parity with the civs on our island, like we're doing now, we'll be fine.

How many knights do you guys think we need to attack Japan? I think 15 or 20 should do the job, because they do have Samurai.

Good luck Jack.

Preturn: Bursa changed from knight to market, Uskudar to aqueduct as mentioned above. Ankara switched to library from temple. Russia joins the war against Spain on the Chinese side and comes calling for a tm swap. Sure Cathy. The Japanese and the Greeks join the race for Leo's.

510 AD (1) Istanbul completes cathedral, growth in 1, worker in 1 so I decide to peel off a worker and then go to knight production. Ankara and Urfa finish library, start temple. Sinop finishes temple, starts market. It's going to need some worker help as it only has 3 shields. Japan now has invention, printing press and education. I buy education from the Russians for 45 gpt and 100 gp and then sell it to Rome for printing press & wm. PP then goes to Russia for 10 gpt and 100 gp. Nobody has anything beyond education yet. We can now start building our halfprice universities. Also sell the wm around for 21 gold total. Research is set to Music Theory for now.

520 AD (2) Chinese sign Aztecs in against the Celts, Aztecs sign Russia in against the Koreans. Istanbul completes worker, starts university. MMOW. Bergen, Scandinavia, completes Leo's. It seems all wonders are completed on the other continent.

530 AD (3) Zzzz

540 AD (4) Establish an embassy with Russia and sell them a ROP for wm+17 gold. Cathy is now polite.

550 AAD (5) Edrine builds knight, starts university. Chinese buy in Spain in war against Celts. This should help us buy tech at lower prices if they handle it at all competently.

560 AD (6) America comes calling for tm and 23 gp. Sure Abe. Rome wants to trade world maps, why not ? Buy an embassy in Washington, producing 19 spt, market due in 2. They have the Pyramids and Sistine. In other words, they must die :p. They're bigger than us so no ROP is signed. Uskudar finishes aqueduct, starts university. Mugla finishes worker, starts temple.
Sell the Celts Mono for wm, 3gpt and 20gp.

570 AD (7) The Chinese must really hate the Celts, as they buy in the Greeks against them too. The Greeks then buy in the Russians. Korea wants to ally with us against the Russians but is sent back empty-handed. We hook up the iron near Kafa but no-one is buying. We could trade it to Korea but they have nothing to offer. Bursa finishes market, starts cathedral.

580 AD (8) Rome joins the fight against the Celts. Can you say "dogpile"?

590 AD (9) Istanbul finishes university, starts knight. Aydin finishes temple, starts courthouse. Bingol completes library, starts spear. MM tiles in the Bursa-Sinop-Antalya triangle to give all these use of improved tiles.

600 AD (10) Koreans and Aztecs sign a peace treaty. Antalya complets market, starts cathedral. This may be changed to a university if so desired. Workers are mining the plains peninsula south of Bursa to give Bursa & Sinop more production. America, Greece and China now have music theory. So much, once more, for our 40-turn research.

We now have 160 gp and are earning 75 gpt. We are still only behind by invention and music theory, although someone might have gunpowder too which we would then not be able to see.
I suggest rushing the aqueduct at Iznik as it has enough food to grow very quickly. I used our worker force in the south mostly to improve the grasslands and plains as this is, imho, far more efficient than leaving them unimproved while hacking away at the jungle. Other than that, we're making slow but steady progress.
I have not spotted any samurai so far.

I leave the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-600_AD.SAV) for the capable hands of Sultan Swiftsure to peruse.

P.S. Cgannon, this might be a crazy hour for you, but here in the Netherlands, my 'got it' was posted at a fairly sane 12:30 pm :)

Two or three world wars already in this warmonger game and we didn't get into ONE fight :cool:

Great turnout jack merchant :goodjob:

I understand that we had to give in to the demands of Japan and give away dyes. But now we can't attack for 20 turns, or else or rep is gone. Very bad thing in our position, because buying with gold per turn will be almost impossible. On the bright side: a lot of AI civs broke so many deals, that gpt trading between them also suffered. Can't be a bad thing.

We also could have declared war and tried to bribe a couple of neighbours to join the war. In order to have the attention of the Japanese spread. But I agree with cromagnon's decision
Believe me, it was with a heavy heart and hand that I signed the dyes over to that smug bastard. There was a time not too long ago (maybe even last week) where I would have said NFW! But with one knight and one midaeval infantry, 45 gold, and a horde of japanese swords at our doorstep, I decided not to risk it.

Great trading, Jack. I was disappointed that my PP gambit failed so miserably, but you made the best of it. I've almost always seen the AI go the middle or lower route in the middle ages, not go for Democracy.

It sounds like the Celts' days are numbered. Spain was strong compared to us, and Celts were weak, and they share a tiny continent. Too bad they don't have anything we can trade for. At least it's good to see the wars have started up again. I was afraid the world would be at peace, and we'd fall way behind.

I understand your desire to go after the American wonders, but this should be tempered by the fact that they're on the other continent, and won't affect ours. Which reminds me how useless Sun Tzu's is now, in Toledo on that tiny island. :p

We might be able to take on the Japanese with 15-20 knights, but we'd need to start cranking them out like mad. Part of me feels like we should beeline for Mil Tradition, to get the most use out of our Sipahis, before anyone gets to Repl Parts. This is especially true with the fast pace of AI research in the non-traditional branches.

Anyone have an idea why I couldn't build an aqueduct in Uskudar?

I was only joking about America, their time will come :) I think you couldn't build an aqueduct in Uskudar because it was somehow entered into the build queue. When I removed it from the queue, I could change to the aqueduct right away.
I agree we should beeline to military tradition. It's probably more cost-effective to go after Japan with Sipahi so we should just stock up on the knights and then mass-upgrade. Greece should be next in line. I think Korea and Aztecs are far enough behind that we can afford to leave them until last.
By the end of swiftsure's turn the dyes will be available for trade again. We should trade them away, preferably to someone else, before Japan can extort them from us again. I totally agree it was necessary to give in to Toku's demand.

Edit: Rep parts is not a gamekiller for Sipahi - it just means you need guns and lots of them.

:wallbash:
My bad. The game gave me the pop-up "Uskudar is not growing - (and I picked the option) Finish Knight, then build aqueduct." I've turned that option off in my regular games, so I haven't seen it in more than 2 months, and I must have breezed by it.

I totally agree with your strategy.

Will pick it up tonight.... regarding AI research i,ve always found that the AI will only go as far as chemistry on the lower half and then change to head for Democracy and Economics. after Chem i always now try to research Physics as a good trading tech.

We can trade for invention but it would cost us a lot so i'll wait a few turns.

610ad rop with scandanavia, japan and spain cancelled by them i renegotiate the one with spain us getting 1gpt. the others want money which i dont want to give them.

izmet builds marketplace starts knight

620ad edrine builds university starts knight. iznik builds aquaduct starts knight

630ad istanbul builds knight starts another

640ad kafa builds spear starts temple

trade w/m, 21gpt and 420gp to china for invention

650ad america declares war on scandanavia, celts destroyed by china. adana builds library starts barracks,salonika builds temple starts courthouse

trade w/m, 48gpt and 140gp to greece for gunpowder. we have 2 sources of saltpeter to hook up.

660ad aztecs and russia sign alliance against spain. greece demands t/m and 6gp and we cave in... our time will come. uskadur builds university starts knight,urfa builds temple starts barracks.

trade gunpowder for music theory with korea. start research on chem

670ad greece cancels ivory-dyes agreement but we need ivory as its our third lux. have to give greece dyes,7gpt and 10gp... personal note: greece, second up against the wall when the revolution comes.

istanbul and edrine both build knights and start them again

680ad korea and russia sign peace treaty, bolu builds temple starts marketplace.

690ad iznik builds knight starts another.saltpeter connected

trade dyes to rome for 4gpt and 15gp

700ad- zzzzzzz

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-700AD.SAV

Yay, we have saltpeter ! [dance] [party] :tank: :die:

Nice job guys, two turns while was at school, woohoo! ;) Anyway, its got that we have Saltpeter, that lifts a weight off our shoulders.

I'm guessing common consensus is to war with Japan with Siphai? I think thats as far back as we can push it. How many knights do we have, I'd like to get an actual number on that.

Aggie -> Up Now
Me
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure

Wow, I played last night and now I'm up again! Got it.

EDIT: We've got 6 knights now...

Good pace on the game. Nice job trading, Swiftsure. I thought the techs would be out of our price range.

Any news on the japanese forces? I should have sent a scout inthe their territory while I had RoP with them to get an idea. If they don't have saltpeter, they're as good as dead, although we do have to watch for the samurai counterattack.

Don't worry about Greece yet; we'll get our ivory from Japan :mwaha:

At some point, we should really start our FP in Kafa, even if it takes us forever to build it.

Pre-turn, a little investigation.

- Japan and the Aztecs don't have horses :lol:
This could mean that these civs might want to declare war to claim those resources. We MUST be ready for that.

I agree with the rest, so...

IT: China and Spain get a MA against the Aztecs.

Turn 1 - 710 AD Istanbul and Izmit finished Knights, build start Knights. Our income is 58 gpt now. No-one wants to sell Chemistry.

IT: Spain drags Korea into the war against the Aztecs...

Turn 2 - 720 AD Konya builds temple, start Knight. Edrine and Uskadar finish Knights and start new ones... We are able to trade Chemistry for 60 gpt. Too much imho.

IT: Greece-America and Russia-Greece against the Vikings. The Aztecs and the Spanish make peace. That stupid AI! First Spain drags Korea and China into the war and now they get a rep hit by making peace.... :rolleyes:

Turn 3 - 730 AD More jungles cleared

IT: The Vikings want a MA against America and a ROP. I agree with the ROP, but decline the MA. They get polite with us.

Turn 4 - 740 AD Adana finishes barracks, starts temple. We get Chemistry from China for 275 g and 45 gpt. Start researching banking at lone scientist speed. No-one has metallurgy

IT: Spain want a MA against Russia, I decline and give her w/m

Turn 5 - 750 AD Urfa finishes barracks and starts knight. Instanbul builds knight and start another... Metallurgy is still unknown in the world.

Turn 6 - 760 AD Ankara finishes temple and starts courthouse. Iznik finishes another Knight, but we still don't have enough of them...

China and Spain get a MA against Russia

Turn 7 - 770 AD Sinop builds marketplace and starts temple. New knight in Edrine -> Knight. America, Vikings, Spain, Greeks and Japanese know Metallurgy now. Edrine grew and is prevented from rioting next turn with a taxman.

IT: China and Vikings get MA against Aztecs. Poor Aztecs... :(

Turn 8 - 780 AD Bursa finishes Catherdral and starts......Knight! Uskudar: Knight -> Knight.

IT: Greece doesn't want to extend the ROP deal... Greece captures Alesund from the Vikings near our borders.

Turn 9 - 790 AD Bingol finishes spearman and start temple. Istanbul: Knight -> Knight.

IT: The Americans start with Newton.

Turn 10 - 800 AD Aydin finishes courthouse and starts Knights. We are not able to trade at the moment, because our income is only 12 gpt. But within 5 turn we will have it increased to 100 gpt (couple of deals expire). We may be able to get metallurgy then.

I ended my turn with 15 knights and 9 in the build queues. Scandinavia is losing terrain and we are catching up in the histograph. 4th with one point less than the Vikings and close to China. The Aztecs seem like an obvious choice for us to destroy, along with the Japanese. Our army is weak compared to the Japs (and Spain Russia, America), but average compared to the Aztecs, Greece and strong compared to the Koreans.

We might want to go to war now against the Aztecs. They are weak and we can join the others in destroying them. Korea can follow. Only drawback: no real new luxuries and resources on their territory.

The Japanese should be easy targets with our UU.

On the economic side, we should build banks to generate more income, which is needed in the industrial age.

800 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-800AD1.SAV)

I've going to have to agree with Aggie on jumping on the "Kill the Aztecs/Korea" bandwagon. With 15 knights the war should be easily, and the Koreans/Aztecs have been fighting for a long time. It'll just be a matter of maneurvering forces.

I got it, I'm playing right now. Be back soon. :)

Looks like we got a corrupt file, Aggie. "Not a valid save file." Can you zip it and try again?

We might want to join the war against the Aztecs, but I suggest mainly to use it to buy a tech. Perhaps someone can give us a discount if we offer a military alliance against the Aztecs. I don't think we should actively prosecute a war against them just yet. Imagine Japan declaring on us if our southern border is undefended - they're agressive enough to do so.

Jack, the Warmongering Rule is that once we declare war on a civ, we may not make peace until they are destroyed. Therefore, we can't carry out a 'phony war' just for tech.

If we took on the Aztecs, we'd probably get a monopoly on gems (not that that means so much). Lack of horses in the Aztec empire means their best unit will be muskets/med inf., which would be easily do-able even with knights. On the other hand, our empire would stretch quite far, and those cities would be quite corrupt.

I agree with Jack, that Japan is eyeing our territory too much. We're his obvious target. Lack of horses in Japan (assuming they don't get it from elsewhere) means that their best unit will be Samurai/muskets. Also, taking on Japan means we might get ivory, which would help us a lot more than the gems. I think the Japanese cities would be more lucrative than the Aztec ones as far as corruption goes.

For these reasons, I'd consider Japan a more worthy target.

Regardless of whom we attack, we should make sure to obtain a MA with the Greeks, as they may see us as a target. Because of the variant rule, we don't have to worry about breaking the MA prematurely.

BTW, I've never noticed much impact from the AI breaking treaties with other AI's.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Lack of horses in the Aztec empire means their best unit will be muskets/med inf

.............

BTW, I've never noticed much impact from the AI breaking treaties with other AI's.

Last time I checked, the Aztecs didn't have gunpowder!

....

I'm sure that similar reputation rules apply to the AI as to us. One thing I like from CIV3 is that the human player isn't a target which the AI civs gang up on... Therefore every rep hit taken by the AI is good for our trading position. The advanced civs must get money, so they best turn to us!

We can also wait and prepare an attack on Japan and taking the Aztecs and Koreans around that time. Should be easy with our UU. And the MA with Greece is a super idea jack merchant :goodjob:. Not only to take away the Greek threat, but also as a buffer: other civs have to travel through Greece to get to us.

@cgannon64: I'm very sorry about that corrupt file. I should have checked it before I went to sleep. :wallbash: I'm at my work now so I can only send a new version at 17.30 h CET.....

Originally posted by jack merchant
Imagine Japan declaring on us if our southern border is undefended - they're agressive enough to do so.

You have a point there: Japan is our main goal... Patience could be a virtue... We lost CG4 because of impatience...

EDIT: but joining the war doesn't mean: kill them at once. We could do that slowly. Only assisting the other civs. Kill a spear or two with a couple of knights get them promoted to elite or get a GL. Capture a city or two. I know that declaring war means that we have to kill the Aztecs, but there's no timeline there and they are useless regarding trade, so why not declare war now. I'm not very afraid that we can't coop a war at two fronts, because the Aztecs and Koreans are so weak.

Other positive thing about war against the Aztecs: by getting MA's with everyone currently at war with them (as MUST according to me), we will get more popular. And should one or two AI civs want to break that deal, it's also great: another rep hit for them. I know, I know. I'm an attitude/reputation addict ;)

My advice in short: get MA's with all civs at war with the Aztecs (we might even get something from them if we join!). Help with the war, but only send a couple of knights. Let the other civs do the real fighting for us initially. Our main focus should be war against Japan. With a little luck we have 30+ Sipahi then :lol:

I corrected the corrupt file. I was able to download and execute this .sav myself...

Meanwhile I checked what we could get for a MA against the Aztecs. Korea wanted to give banking for 6gpt and MA. Others wanted to give w/m and gold. Great deal, isn't it :)

Yes, I've found that the AI will sign a MA for very little, especially if they don't like the other guy. Halfway through the Modern Age, I was able to sign Germany on against the larger Aztecs for 175 gold in my personal game. :D

The only problem with a long slow war, Aggie, is War Weariness. We should be able to handle it (I hope).

Originally posted by cromagnon
The only problem with a long slow war, Aggie, is War Weariness. We should be able to handle it (I hope).

That is true, but as long as we manage to get the Aztecs out of our land and the loses to a minimum, we will have almost no WW.

EDIT: When we decide to go to war, remember to get alliances with as many civs as possible, excluding the Japs... But Korea as first choice, because of the deal we can make.

If they can give us banking for 6 gpt, I'd say go for it ! 3-4 knights should be sufficient to keep them out of our lands. In my current game I got a ~20gpt discount on astronomy under similar circumstances, and the next turn the country I'd bought it from turned around and declared peace ! End of alliance, end of my payments :D

I got the new save, I'll play later today. BTW, if war comes in my turn, it will be against Japan. :)

Here are my 10 turns. What started out as another set of war preparations turned into a bloodbath by turn 7 or 8. We weren't underprepared when the Japanese Swords came rushing into our territory (and quickly repulsed, BTW) but I would have liked to postpone war on my turn so we could discuss. All those plans changed when the Japanese tried to sneak attack us with a few Swords. Don't worry, we didn't lose any cities - only they did. Here is the report:

[Inherited Turn] Shuffle a few fortifed Knights around. The buildup on the Japanese border comes out to 8 Knights in Iznik, the eastern city, and 3 Knights in Aydin, the Western city. All looks good, so I begin.

[810 AD - Turn 1] Some Knight production, worker movement. Buildup totals 8 in West, 8 in the East. I think 3 or 4 Knights would be good to take out Japan's northern cities, which are bigger then you would expect, and in good terrain. When the totals get over 10 on each side, I think the war will begin...:mwaha:

[820 AD - Turn 2] Wow! Three wonders taken out in ONE cascade, over the course of ONE turn! This is amazing, I've never seen that many AIs competing in all wonder races. Sorry, I couldn't get the wonders down. Hey did anyone else notice the "details" section of the Foreign Policy section of the Menus? Its really cool! I think its new to PTW...anyway, it tells you about all the deals you have out, the details of them, and the turns remaining. Very useful. :thumbsup:

[830 AD - Turn 3] I trade Russia Banking for Chemistry, decline on their offer to MA against Spain. The MA wouldn't have sweetened the deal, so it was pointless. Buildup totals reach 9 in the East, 8 in the West, and 1 in the North. Only a few more Knights (ideal numbers are about 10, 10, and 5) and we can go to war! :yeah:

[840 AD - Turn 4] Nothing but production. I switch a few builds around to Knight, nothing major. A deal ends, our gpt shoots up to 37. I begin to look for deals again. ;)

[850 AD - Turn 5] Woah! GPT shoots up again to 87! This still isn't our maximum potential though - we still have a 45gpt deal with China. In light of this info, we give Rome 196g and 61gpt (we're high rolling here! :eek: ) for Metallurgy and his WM. One step closer to Siphais baby...!

[860 AD - Turn 6] Hoho! Japan demands our TM! Haha I find this almost funny. You kno what, I'm tired of laying down. We're only 2 knights short of my prepared numbers, so we tell him to get out. He gives a lame excuse, and war is avoided. So you live another day, you live another day. :p

[870 AD - Turn 7] Four Knights built. I'm afraid war may have to come under the next administration. Oh well, if it goes wrong, we can blame you! ;) :lol:

[880 AD - Turn 8] Japanese troops move into our territory. Do they want to try something? There are a total of 7 Swords in our territory, near two cities with two Spears each. I naturally ask them to leave. They declare war! Well, its on now baby. Knights move out from their bases. A stack of 10 Knights get near Nara. The attack begins. Nara falls! We had one Knight casualty, one wounded, while the Japanese lost three Muskets. Grr, a slip of the finger moves two knights out of the city, ugh. A stack of Knights is ready to attack Nagoya by next turn, left on a hill. Yokohama falls in the North, with no casualties!

[890 AD - Turn 9] Japanese counterattack by Nara, kill the two Knights that I accidentally left out in the open. My first Samurai sighting also. The Japanese Swords that started the whole thing aboutface in the mountains, ready to attack Yokohama. Hopefully our Knights can pick them off before they get there. Several Swords killed by Yokohama by our Knights. The Knight attack on Nagoya begins. The Battle for Nagoya is bloody. We lost about 3 Knights to take out two Muskets, and we have most of our Knights redlined. It was 4 attack vs 4 defense in a size 12 city, what can you expect? We also capture a worker who was wandering nearby. All hostiles around Nara are killed by our Knights, totaling a MedInf, a Samurari, a Spear, and several Swords. We suffered no losses. Its almost comical to do some jungle cutting while we fight on the front lines! :lol:

[900 AD - Turn 10] The Japanese counter-attack is fierce, but we suffered no losses. One of our Knights heroically defeated a full strength Samurai when it had one HP! One MedInf will be able to strike next turn, while a mix of Swords and MedInf will be able to strike in two turns. (NOTE: All that was in Nara, BTW.) We suffer some more losses trying to clear up the Swords around Yokohama; I'm afraid we may lose it next turn. In Nagoya, the troops just try to keep the peace and get back to full strength. Notes: Just keep on building Knights and healing the current ones. When you are ready, head deep into the second row of Japanese cities. I think current reinforcements due next turn should head to Yokohama to retake it or help keep it longer. Good luck in the war!

And the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5_900AD.sav

Good luck Cromagnon! :thumbsup:

I'll get it tonight, and see what damage I can do. Any military alliances? We should make sure the Japanese don't get the Greeks or Aztecs to bang us.

I wonder why they didn't build more Samurai? Quite unlike them. I'll take a look and see if there's any chance of getting a couple of knights to their iron deposit for a little 'snip' action.

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'll get it tonight, and see what damage I can do. Any military alliances? We should make sure the Japanese don't get the Greeks or Aztecs to bang us.

Sorry, an oversight. They haven't yet though, although I think you should. Just make sure that the Greeks or Aztecs steal some of our treasure down there. ;)


I wonder why they didn't build more Samurai? Quite unlike them. I'll take a look and see if there's any chance of getting a couple of knights to their iron deposit for a little 'snip' action.

I don't know either. They have a pretty sizable army of Sworsds/Macemen, but they are easy to take out. The trick is to hit and run, taking some out and then retreating to where they can't get you, with their puny 1 tile movement. :p

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'll get it tonight, and see what damage I can do. Any military alliances? We should make sure the Japanese don't get the Greeks or Aztecs to bang us.


MA's -with the Greeks and maybe others as well- are absolutelly crucial. But the Aztecs are puny and we can handle them.

Please consider MA's with others against the Aztecs as a bolsters against MA's of Japan. Be reminded that Japan has techs to bribe others into a MA.

Superjob CG :goodjob:

EDIT: We could use cannons as addition to our knight and sipahi...

Inherited turn: I starve the crap out of our new conquests, Nara, Nagoya, and Yokohama. The last one has two elite swordsmen outside, so it's going to fall to the Japanese next turn. There's also a stack of six MI/Swords outside Nara, but only our MI will suffer.

Hmm, I didn't realize we were at war with the Aztecs as well; I should have read more closely. Unfortunately, an Aztec Pike is sitting on one of our Saltpeters. I sign the Greeks on to fight them for Dyes, WM, 97+4gpt. The Koreans pay us WM and 14 gold for an alliance! I then trade Wang Metallurgy for Astronomy, and get started on Military Tradition. Korea has Navigation, and only requires Iron for it. The only problem with this is that we could potentially lose one (or more) of our irons as they are near the fronts. I put a spear on our northern iron, and make the trade. We now need only physics and ToG to get Nationalism free, but no one is dealing. Most of the other continent is in the Industrial Age.

Switch Bursa and Urfa to Knights (from muskets). I also move some spears/pikes/muskets from the interior to the front. Finally, I micro a few tiles to increase production and up our gpt by 4 to 45.

(Deep breath, IBT): Aztec pike snips our saltpeter. China joins Japan in an embargo against us. Hmm, this is odd: we still have 3 turns of a 45 gpt deal with China - I was hoping the embargo would nullify that. Jap elite sword attacks Yokahama and LOSES! The city holds! Another sword takes our knight. Near Nara, our MI fends off one sword, but dies to a MI.

[1] 910AD: Salonica Barracks -> Musket. Istanbul knight -> same. Upgrade a spear I moved to Yokohama to musket. The only knight there attacks a sword on our remaining saltpeter, but retreats. At Nara, elite knight attacks swordsman, killing it w/o a scratch. At Nagoya, knight kills a musket heading for our iron. I get 9 gold from Russia for RoP (btw she has 2300 gold!), everyone else has zero. I keep starving our conquests, and send a knight to the Aztec front.
IBT: China wants a MA vs Romans and RoP. I tell Mao to stuff it (embargo me, will you?). Japanese Samurai kills one of our knights at Nagoya; our musket fends off a sword at Yokahama. Amazingly, the damaged sword (instead of snipping our last saltpeter) heads for home.

[2] 920AD: Aydin knight -> worker (has no barracks). Edrine knight -> knight. I give the Greeks RoP so they can get to the Aztecs sooner (I should have done this one turn before). Three knights at Nagoya kill sword, samurai and musket, one promotes. Reinforcement knight kills the fleeing spear near Yokohama & promotes. I put a spear on our horses, as the Aztec head for that next. Upgrade pike in Nagoya to musket. I sign RoP with Rome for 13+3gpt (he had zero the last two turns).
IBT: Lincoln demands and gets 20 gold & TM, and they sign MPP with Russia. Greeks try to kill an Aztec pike, but only promote it. Japanese sword impales himself on Yokohama's bullets. Japan moves two stacks of five near Nagoya.

[3] 930AD: Our knights in Nagoya decimate the stacks, losing one knight, promoting one. Japan now has only 3 swords/MI, and we're now 'average' to them.
IBT: Scandinavia ends their war with the Aztecs. Greek reinforcements have arrived. Aztec pikes shuffle. At Nagoya, Samurai attacks, but retreats to our bullets. The remaining stack dies to our knights, promoting one to elite. The Koreans are not doing so well against the Aztecs, having lost 3 cities.

[4] 940AD: Kafa temple -> market. Aydin worker -> cannon; worker will hook up saltpeter. Elite Knights at Nagoya take out the samurai and a musket. As Japan has been concentrating on Nagoya, I drum up the troops in Nara, and send them (6 knights) to Satsuma, where they see Riflemen. :eek: I decide to hold off - even though we might take the city, I don't think we could hold it. I take two knights and a musket from Yokohama toward Shimonoseki, their western city.
IBT: Greek forces stream toward Aztecs, but are slowed by lack of roads. I underestimated Japan - Samurai kill two of our knights near Nara. Russia has taken 4 outer ring cities from Scandinavia. Their Cossacks must be steamrolling.

[5] 950AD: Istanbul knight -> knight, Uskudar the same. Those defeats cost us some WW, so I kick up lux to 30%. I send troops to the southern front. I trade our non-excess saltpeter to Korea for WM, 28+20gpt, as our worker will hook up saltpeter in 2 turns (which is when we next need to build muskets). I could get Physics for all 60gpt we earn, but I decline. Military Tradition is beyond us. I sign RoP with China for 27 gold and WM. I renegotiate peace with Scandinavia, getting 3 gold and WM.
IBT: America and Scandinavia sign peace. Aztecs want peace, but don't have anything to offer. Japanese Archer near Shimonoseki redlines, then promotes our musket. Greeks dislodge an Aztec pike on a mountain.

[6] 960AD: Urfa knight -> aqueduct, Bursa knight, continue same. Izmit Aqueduct -> knight.

[7] 970AD: Konya musket -> knight. Edrine knight -> knight. The Nagoya stack moves out, killing longbow and musket, but redline an elite knight. At Shimonoseki, we kill one spear, but our vet knight retreats. No one will give up Military Tradition.
IBT: We trade Korea TM and get 3gold. America declares war on Vikings (they're toast). Greeks are streaming into Aztec lands.

[8] 980AD: Antalya knight -> knight. I lose two knights against Nagasaki before calling it quits. I send a stack of knights toward Satsuma. Our elite knight takes Shimonoseki without a scratch, capturing 4 workers.
IBT: Aztecs move a MI next to our conquest.

[9] 990AD: Istanbul and Iznik knight -> knight. I make a deal with Spain: RoP, 225+56gpt & WM for Military Tradition. I trade China this for Physics, WM, 2 gold. I've now blown most of our budget, but in 6 turns, a deal with Rome ending will give us 61gpt more. Upgrading each knight to Sipahi costs 60 gold, :eek: so it will be a while. I set Economics as the next goal (no one has it). I move some knights to the front.
IBT: FWIW, Spain joins the Scandinavia dogpile, and America and Korea make peace. :rolleyes: Japanese longbows kill our musket and 2 knights near Satsuma.

[10] 1000AD: Salonika musket -> marketplace. I retreat the Satsuma stack - I finally learned my lesson. I change Mugla's barracks to market (it's starting to grow). Upgrade a sipahi in Nara.

We have 10 knights in Nara, 7 in Nagoya. 9 Sipahi are being commissioned. I didn't want to attack Riflemen with Knights, so I think we'll have to wait for the Sipahi. The major problem with Japan is his far-flung cities. We can't make peace until each one is taken. :p

I would seriously consider sending a crapload of knights to Aztec, as the Greeks are having a party there. Monty hasn't lost any cities yet, but his capital (where all the gems are) is only one city away from the border. I think our knights should be able to handle his muskets.

I didn't sign any more MA's besides Greece, but we seem to be doing OK. Scandinavia is in serious trouble, and Korea may cave soon.

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1000AD.sav

And the screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS4.jpg

From the rules:

If another civ attacks us, we can make peace at any time.

Given that Japan declared war on us, shouldn't making peace be an option ? Not saying that I would make peace, but I'd like to know. Got it, btw. Will play today, if I can get some clarification.
Pity we can't use the nationalism slingshot. I think that's how Russia got so rich.

jack merchant, I believe you're right. If you decide to make peace, beware that the situation should remain that way for 20 turns: reputation issue.

Ooh, you're right! I forgot that detail. So we are under no obligation to continue the war with them. What about the Aztecs? How did they get into a war with us?

Good luck, Jack. Sorry for handing over the empire to you poor, but I gave you one Sipahi, with which you can trigger the GA at the time of your choosing. :goodjob:

And just to clarify, we have no MA vs Japan, so making peace with them wouldn't cause a rep hit. Making peace with the Aztecs would.

We don't have the obligation to remain at war, but why have peace now and re-declare war a couple of turns later? That would damage us even more, because the other nations will turn against us, making trading and alliances more difficult. And trading is was kept us alive (and kicking)...

Aarg -lost the writeup of the first two turns when my computer crashed. Also lost the second turn. By and large, what happened:

1010 AD (1)
-Luxes at 30% and WW upon us. We need peace and fast.
- A round of wm trading in my first turn earned us ~85 gold and an improved wm which was then traded around again for 104 gp and 1 gpt. Dyes to Rome for 4 gpt cancelled and instead sent to America for 3gpt and 180 gp. All the proceeds spent on Sipahi upgrades.
- The Japanese are trying to bombard our saltpeter supply near Aydin and dropped off a longbow near Izmit, which is only guarded by a warrior. One Sam died and one retreated trying to retake Nagoya.
- Lose an elite musket in Shimonoseki to an Aztec MedInf. Argh. Kill the MedInf with an elite knight, no leader.
- Iznik switched to courthouse in favour of Sipahi.

1020 AD (2) Kill a sam near Nagoya with a Sipahi. Golden Age ! Our income jumps to 113 gpt. Buy Roman silks for 22gpt+wm+8gp. Looking over our empire, I think we are in desperate need of infrastructure all over the place. The GA is a good time to get it if we do not want to fall further behind. I'm going to see if I can squeeze something out of Japan in exchange for peace soon.

1030 AD (3) Greeks show up with cavalry. Japs land a sword and an MI south of Yokohama. One killed by knight. Elite Sipahi kills vet rifle next to Nagoya but goes down to 1hp in the process. Send some Sipahi from Nara over to Nagoya as the Japs are concentrated there and we can maybe take Nagasaki and Kagoshima, then prepare to take Tokyo from behind. I fancy our FP in Edo, but we might have to make peace first and then prepare for death of Japan, round 2.
Bolu switched to courthouse from Sipahi, Edrine builds Sipahi starts bank, Uskudar builds Sipahi starts bank. Konya switched from Sipahi to market, due in 4.

1040 AD (4) Japanese build Magellan's Voyage in Tokyo. Bolu builds courthouse, starts bank. Kill 3 rifles, 5 longbows and a Sam near Nagoya. We get the GL Orhan, he builds an Army which is filled with 2 Sipahi (I'll add in a third later (edit: still not fully filled)). The army gets its first victory in the fighting, so we can now build the Epic. Istanbul builds Sipahi, starts bank. I may change my mind and build the HE instead. Aydin builds cannon, starts another. Our regular knight near Izmit kills the MInf there and promotes. Izmit builds musket, starrts courthouse.

1050 AD (5) Rome and Greece sign peace with the Vikings, also sign an MPP with each other. Spain declares war on China. Urfa market -> aqueduct. Workers hook up our third saltpeter just in case. Switch Uskudar to HE, due in 8. Our army rests and recuperates in Nagoya.

1060 AD (6) Iznik finishes courthouse, starts cathedral. Bursa finishes Sipahi, starts courthouse.We take Nagasaki at the cost of one Sipahi, 7 resisters. I sign peace with the Japanese. They give us ToG and Magnetism for 60gpt and 200 gold as part of the deal, less than half the price of what it would cost to buy both of these from anyone else. Sell Nationalism to china for democracy, 26gpt and 40 gold (all they have) before anyone else does. Also sell it to Scandinavia for 35gpt and 70 gold, although we may not collect all the money (they're down to 2 cities). Luxuries dialed down to 20%, our income is now 240 gpt. Japan, America, Russia and Greece have steam power, but it would cost at leats 170gpt to get it. I hold off for now. Hurry the library in Nagoya for 96 gold. Uskudar changed back to bank from HE as we now have 20 turns of peace. I don't think they will have Rep parts before those are over. Besides, looking at the territory they have they're unlikely to have rubber.

1070 AD (7) China and Aztecs sign an embargo against us. Pity, as China lacks saltpeter. Konya builds market, starts granary. Ankara builds courthouse, starts aqueduct. Antalya builds Sipahi, starts bank. I hurry a settler out of Nagasaki (the resistance has already ended) to get the pop down faster. We may want to raze and replace some Jap cities in the future. Steam power price drops to 153 gpt, still too much for my liking as there is no-one to sell it on to.

1080 AD (8) Aztecs and Vikings sign trade embargo against us. Sinop aqueduct -> cathedral. Bingol temple -> courthouse. Nagasaki settler - library. Culture expansion there will allow us to hit Kagoshima on the first turn of the next war. Hurry library in Shimonoseki for 109 gold.

1090 AD (9) The Vikings are destroyed by the Russians. Salonika builds market, starts bank.
A Jap Samurai appears next to Nagasaki, wonder what he's up to. Price on Steam power drops to 123 gpt +500 gold. I'm tempted but wait.

1100 AD (10) Japanese move another sam into our territory. Move some Sipahi to shadow them. Istanbul builds bank, starts Epic. Edrine builds bank, starts cathedral. Nagoya borders expand. Adana builds courthouse, starts market. Hurry library in Nagasaki, which is now down to size 3. Move 2 knights and a Sipahi near Shimonoseki into Greek territory to go after the Aztecs. We may want to do some fighting against them just for honour's cause.

Summary: We may try to buy Steam power off the Japs and then order their troops out. If we're lucky, they'll go back to war and save us quite a bit of money. However, war weariness takes 20 turns to wear off, so in that case luxes should be turned up again. Our income is currently 265 gpt. Our army is concentrated in Nara and Nagasaki.
I focused on improving our infrastructure, which is still somewhat lacking. We definitely need more cathedrals all over the place. The reason WW hits us so hard is that many cities lack them. This also forces us to maintain 20% luxes in peacetime. The next player may want to build more Sipahi as improvements complete. We could also do with some more cannon. Nobody has started suffrage yet, so we are only behind by one tech.
Our city defenses are also in need of improvement, most of our cities are still only defended by spearmen. This means that for the moment, we need to keep the Greeks on our side as otherwise, we'll be in big trouble. Our alliance with them against the Aztecs has just expired; make sure to renegotiate.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1100AD.SAV) Good luck, swiftsure !

Doesn't look bad, but imho we should use the Sipahi now!!! If we wait too long, they're useless. It might not be Japan, but then another should be our target! War weariness only counts for our war with Japan, not for a war with the Aztecs or a new victim.

Hmm. I need to learn more about WM trading.

Woohoo! Magellan's in Kyoto! [dance] They only have useless wonders besides that.

Good call on building HE. It'll come in handy for our conquests.

Too bad about Chinese embargos. They always gave the best price on tech, for some reason. Good trading, Jack Merchant.

I agree that we should try to take the Aztec capital, thus giving us a load of gems with which to deal. Only Greece has gems other than us and Aztecs (I think), and our reputation is pretty good, so it can only help us. Are we allowed to make peace with Aztecs? I don't know if we declared on them, or they on us.

Speaking of reputation, do we take a hit for having a deal with Scandinavia when they died?

Also, any thoughts on upping research to get ToE and the Hoover?

We shouldn't take a hit from Scandinavia dying, as we sold them something for which they paid us. If it had been the other way around, our rep would be shot. Trade embargos apply only to luxes and resources, we should still be able to buy tech from the Chinese.
I think we declared on the Aztecs. Maybe cgannon can confirm ? This was done to get a discount on banking. We would need more troops in the area to make some headway against the Aztecs. The logistics of getting troops there are awful until we get rails going. The Greeks are kicking Aztec butt atm, so we are at least safe from retaliation.
I do think Japan is up to something. They moved two samurai into our territory on my last two turns. I suspect war will come again before the 20 turns are up, hence my suggestion of buying steam power from them :evil grin:
Our research time still stinks. We need more universities, but I focused on banks instead as for now we are still forced to buy tech. We could do research once we get an FP somewhere. It's probably easier to go to war again and save up a leader for TOE.

Edit: made one mistake in the report. The Japs built Magellan's in Tokyo, not Kyoto. The wm trading was bottom-of-the-barrel scraping. The procedure is to get an improved wm by selling your own around as soon as there is something new about it. Then at the end of the round you have a map with all the latest changes which is then valuable for trading again.

Wow, we got lucky with Japan declaring war on us! :) I don't think we should care about the rep hit when we redeclare war early - we are going for conquest, after all, and that isn't very rep friendly. ;) :lol:

I think we should go after Japan again when we get enough Siphais on the border. How many Siphais do we have now?

Good luck swiftsure!

Originally posted by cgannon64
Wow, we got lucky with Japan declaring war on us! :) I don't think we should care about the rep hit when we redeclare war early - we are going for conquest, after all, and that isn't very rep friendly. ;) :lol:


This may be true, but we fully rely on other civs' research and buy the techs we need. A rep hit could severely hinder this (prices go up...). My strategy would be to lure the Japanese into a war (let them declare it) and get allies. I understand the urgency to take out the Japanese, that's why I suggested to keep on fighting...

I believe that we should avoid reputaton problems as long as possible. We did great so far, it should be possible to continue like this, until we are so strong that no rep hit can hurt us anymore. I believe this is not that moment yet... We have the strongest attacking unit on the planet, but this is temporary...

I agree with Aggie. Your argument about the conquest nature of the game makes sense toward the end, when there are only 2-3 civs left and we have a large tech lead and money (if that's to be the case, knock on wood).

CGannon, could you clarify how we got into a war with the Aztecs? I didn't see it in your writeup, and on the inherited turn we were already at war. Did we declare or did they?

And don't worry about the Japanese; they will play into our hands. :mwaha: Tokugawa is too bloodthirsty to let this go.

I strongly suggest (edit: agree) we deal honorably with Japan, i.e. needle them into declaring. We need to be able to buy tech with gpt at least until we have conquered Japan and have an FP. After that, we can go out and get a tech lead. I signed peace because we needed to buy a lux and maintain 30% luxes to stay at war, costing us effectively about 85 gpt in our golden age. Though we had the troops to go to war, we did and do not have the infrastructure to support it. I estimate we need about 10 more Sipahi in addition to our current forces to take out Japan proper. Apart from that, they have a city to the far west of the continent that will take 5-6 turns to reach through Aztec territory.
Remember that the AI sucks at inf/artillery/cav warfare, whereas for us humans it's not all that difficult, just a little slow.

Originally posted by cromagnon

CGannon, could you clarify how we got into a war with the Aztecs? I didn't see it in your writeup, and on the inherited turn we were already at war. Did we declare or did they?


To be honest, I have NO CLUE. I don't remember a declaration of war, signing an MPP/MA, or anything like that. I don't even remember any combat!

Good point about the rep Aggie, I forgot about our reliance on trading.

Originally posted by jack merchant
Though we had the troops to go to war, we did and do not have the infrastructure to support it. I estimate we need about 10 more Sipahi in addition to our current forces to take out Japan proper.

I see your point, we are a bit light in Sipahi (16). And we must use our workers to builds railroad asap. You are also correct that the war weariness won't be over within 11 or 12 turns...

Tough decision... Let's just see what Swiftsure decides ;)

PS. I must say that you made an interesting decision to concentrate on economics in the Golden Age...

I didn't focus on economics, that was a min science run started by cromagnon. I played a little with the slider but our research times are still horrible (10 turns or so) even at the highest non-deficit science rate. That is why I decided to keep the min sci going.
Corruption is killing us.

At this point in my monarch games I'm usually in Democracy and stay there, so corruption in a civ our size usually was not a problem. We also lack a FP, which certainly doesn't help (although I agree with the HE choice). BTW, Jack, the only qualm I have about Edo as a FP site is that there's not a whole lot beyond it, so we'd be losing some of its benefit. I was thinking more along the lines of placing it west, maybe in Kafa. On the other hand, Japan's lands look much more lucrative (in terms of production and commerce) than Aztecs. Tough call.

I went for Economics because no one else had it, and Smith's is a powerful wonder to have.

I'm sure Japan will make the choice for us. As far as Aztecs go, we'll have to decide what rule to follow. It doesn't appear that Japan dragged them into a war (I don't remember checking for a MA), but if CGannon didn't declare war and neither did I, I'd say we could still make peace and not break the rule.

I certainly wouldn't mind getting Smith's unchallenged... also, I certainly didn't mean to criticize you.
If we build the FP in the North, Salonika might be a better choice as it's much bigger and has more potential for growth. It's also more centrally located. If we build it in Kafa, the distance to the Aztec lands is still big enough so as to cause sizable distance corruption. One problem with Edo is that we'll have to starve the Japanese cities to eliminate flip chances, and the cities they have east of the mountain range to the south have no access to irrigation until electricity.

got it and will play and post tonight

No worries, Jack merchant; I didn't even take it as criticism. I fully welcome any criticism of my playing; after all, I'm here to learn. That's why my writeups are so wordy and I put my thoughts in there - so you guys (or any lurkers) can say "you could have done this better," or "we ought to have gone after..."

So please, don't hold back!

The problem I see with Salonika as a FP site is that it's only 7 squares away from Istanbul. I was under the impression that 10 squares on a standard map was ideal (my memory is foggy though).

This is a criticism to all of us ;) We should have built the FP a long time ago...

And we could have built it next to Istanbul (Uskadar). This would have given us much benefit. A leader could then build our palace at another place, so that we have two centres. Now, at this late stage, I would suggest to look at the Japanese land to build our FP with a leader. Although Istanbul isn't idealy placed for a palace...

Originally posted by jack merchant
I didn't focus on economics, that was a min science run started by cromagnon. I played a little with the slider but our research times are still horrible (10 turns or so) even at the highest non-deficit science rate. That is why I decided to keep the min sci going.
Corruption is killing us.

I meant your build-choices. Instead of troops you decided to build mostly marketplaces, aquaducts, libraries, etc... All good for income sooner or later. That's a decision fine with me. Only thing is that we can't really aford war with Japan at this moment, because it will be bloody. For both.

Oh, alright. Must have read too many of the LK series ;) However, we can certainly use the extra income though. Industrial Era techs are hugely expensive, and while we're now at 265 gpt and paying out a net of 80-90 gpt indeals, our income will halve at the end of the GA. At that point, our economy must be in better shape if we're to be able to buy more than 1-2 techs every 20 turns.
Nice idea to build it the FP in Uskudar. Konya would also do, I think. We should have thought of that before :)
Can't wait to see what swiftsure does !

played it but upload feature seems to be having problems, i'll try it later

Originally posted by swiftsure
played it but upload feature seems to be having problems, i'll try it later

Yes, I had the same problems in another SG..... But don't you have the storyline to tell us what happened?

quick look around and decide to buy steam from greece for w/m,122gpt and 350gp.checking round finds that both russia and america have no coal. trade coal to russia for furs,130gp and w/m,coal to america for wines andw/m. we are able to reduce lux to 10%.both america and russia have electricity but it is very expensive.

i dont think its worth attacking aztecs yet so will build up a large force of sipahi on the border with japan ready for war.

1110ad- nara;library-temple,uskudur;bank-sipahi,nagasaki;library-temple,yokohama;library-temple,mugla;marketplace-barracks,aydin;cannon-cannon

construction of the trans-ottoman rail system starts.

1120ad- bursa;courthouse-sipahi,izmit;courthouse-sipahi,konya;granary-sipahi,urfa;aquaduct-sipahi.

1130ad-zzzzzz

1140ad- iznik;cathedral-sipahi

1150ad- mugla;barracks-sipahi

1160ad- uskudur;sipahi-sipahi,bolu;bank-sipahi

1170ad- we complete the heroic epic in istanbul starts sipahi,edrine;cathedral-sipahi,adana marketplace-sipahi,urfa;sipahi-sipahi,aydan cannon-cannon

1180ad- antayla;bank-sipahi,konya;sipahi-sipahi

1190ad- russia and america go to war, hopefully it will slow there tech down abit.

izmit;sipahi-sipahi,iznik;sipahi-sipahi,bursa;sipahi-sipahi

1200ad- ankara;aquaduct-marketplace,salonika;bank-sipahi

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1200AD.SAV

Both electricity and economics are available for trade from most of the other nations. We have 2 turns of GA left and 8 turns of peace with japan. we can either wait the 8 turns and declare war normally or perhaps try to steal electricity from japan and get him to declare war on us.

i'm for the FP in edo and move the palace later perhaps to konya.

good luck

Nice going swiftsure ! Interesting to see the AI's went to electricity first. Maybe they're afraid enough of our Sipahi that they're beelining to replacable parts ? That would be a bummer...

Edit: I looked over the save and saw a deal where we are paying Spain 56 gpt in exchange for a rop. I think this is the remainder of a tech deal. Next player should probably cancel it right away :)

Originally posted by jack merchant
Edit: I looked over the save and saw a deal where we are paying Spain 56 gpt in exchange for a rop. I think this is the remainder of a tech deal. Next player should probably cancel it right away :)


Aaaaaargh :mad: I overlooked it. Sorry. I've played my ten turns already (we are still alive) and you tell me now I just threw away 560 gold. :cry:

Looking at the situation before I start my turn, I can only conclude that you all did an excellent job. Bummer that Japan managed to build two cities on remote islands to the east. Long way to travel to kill them...

Swiftsure's hint regarding stealing Electricity from the Japanese is an interesting one. It's also the cheapest option to obtain the technology. It decide to go for it for 2187 gold (carefully). More gold is too big a price to pay for early early war. Well this is what happened:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/techstealworked1.JPG

After obtaining Electricity I go for a pre-build of TEO in Istanbul with the Military Academy. Still a great wonder if we don't manage to get Darwin.

Still no war though. So I urge the Japanese to get their troops out of our territory. They comply. The Japanese know their weakness...

After this entertaining start, I press <end turn>.

Turn 1 - 1210 AD Edrine Sipahi-> Sipahi. I upgrade our 7 knights to Sipahi for 420 gold. We now have 32 Sipahi and another 10 are built. A couple of civs have replaceable parts and mother Russia has Medicine. But the prices are still too high. Replaceble Parts is very important (infantry / artillery) and the Japanese don't have it yet. Again I urge Japan to leave our land. Again he does it.

Turn 2 - 1220 AD Urfa, Adana, Bolu finished training Sipahi start start new Sipahi units. One comment to Swiftsure: it's great to build railroads, but I don't like the automated workers........ Japan again retreats from our land.

IT: Rome doesn't want to extend the silk deal, but accepts Electricity for Economics, w/m, Silks, 53 gold and 8 gpt. The Aztec empire is crumbeling and the Greeks do most of the damage.

Turn 3 - 1230 AD Simop finishes the cathedral and starts a courthouse. Our next Sipahi comes from Mugla -> Sipahi. Our income dropped to 147 gpt after our Golden Age ended. Again the Japanese give in and retreat. The peace treaty lasts for another 3 turns.

Turn 4 - 1240 AD Iznik and Konya: Sipahi->Sipahi. We sell electricity to Spain for spices, 59gpt, w/m and 73 gold. Luxury drops to 0%. Our income goes from 204 gpt to 265 gpt. We buy Medicine from Russia for 1250 gold, 81 gpt and w/m. Greece 'gives' us replaceable parts for Medicine, 44 gpt 262 gold and w/m. No-one has scientific method yet. We are more advanced than America :lol: We've got rubber! :D 7 cities switched to artillery.

IT: Spain and China sign a peace treaty. Our old friend Japan want a MPP and wants US to pay. :nono: Russia starts TEO.

Turn 5 - 1250 AD Kafa builds marketplace and starts courthouse. Edrine finshed our first artillery unit and starts another. Uskudar and Antalya: Sipahi->artillery. Scientific Method from Russia is too expensive at the moment.

IT: America and we swap w/m. Korea and Spain make peace.

Turn 6 - 1255 AD Bingol: courthouse-> aquaduct. Salonika: artillery-> artillery. Izmit: Sipahi-> artillery.

The Japanese haven't got replaceable parts yet, so no artillery and infantry. Time to cancel the peace deal and attack! Our income goes from 115 gpt to 175 gpt-> we paid for the peace deal, you know...

Time to make a few friends.We pay 7gpt, 275 gold to Greece for a MA against Japan (bargain). Korea: MA vs Japan, Medicine, we get 18 gpt, w/m, 70 gold.

First strike summary :hammer:
- Edo falls under the pressure of our army and 5 Sipahi. One Sipahi is killed.
- Satsuma falls. We lose three Sipahi in the process.
- Kagoshima falls. Three sipahi died.
- Izumo falls: 3 sipahi will be remembered.

IT: We lose two sipahi in the Japanese counter-attack. They get a leader. The Aztecs and China end the trade embargo against us. China declares war against the Japanese. :)

Turn 7 - 1260 AD Two explores built. One of them destroys improvement on the iron tile near Tokyo. We kill a Japanese longbow and their leader in the process.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/kyotofalls1.JPG

- Koyto falls: three Sipahi died. Our army barely survives...
- Ise is a bit tough. One Sipahi died.

I changed a couple of artillery back to Sipahi. Japan appears to be beat already...

IT: China gets W/m for w/m 4pgt and 17 gold. Japan captures two workers. That's all they appear to be able to do.

Turn 8 - 1265 AD Yokohama: Temple-> courthouse. Urfa: artillery->Sipahi. Continue starving the former Japanese cities... Let a couple of wounded Sipahi heal... Scientific Method is still too expensive.

- The battle of Tokyo gives us:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/leaderforTEO1.JPG

- Ise falls
- Tokyo falls. No losses.

IT: Japan does nothing.

Turn 9 - 1270 AD Iznik: artillery->Sipahi. Russia has 4 techs we don't have :eek:

- Osaka falls: no losses. Japan is now entirely wiped away from their original starting position. They still have a city west of our continent and two other cities on remote islands. It's seems that we have some war weariness, I raise lux to 10%.

IT: Japanese ships bombard our improvements and lands a unit near Istanbul.

Turn 10 - 1275 AD Anakara riots and gets an entertainer. Iznik: artillery-> Sipahi. The Japanese unit is killed.


Recap: I made a lot of decisions in my 10 turns. The Japanese are crippled, but the war causes war weariness.

We have a leader now with which we can do the following:

- Build a FP in Edo (after the city ends the resistance)
- Buy industrialization and rush the Universal Suffrage outside Istanbul. Reduces War Weariness in a warmonger game.
- Buy Scientific method and rush TEO outside Istanbul. Expensive, but one turn later we can make big bucks with our nerw free techs Atomic Theory and Electronics. Plus we can use the Hoover Dam.

I would go for the 2nd option... We can always buy the techs we need... The FP is also needed though.

I kept troops outside our new cities to recapture cities that flip back to Japan. Leaving the troops in the cities would mean their loss.

I also suggest to join the fighting and turn our attention to the Aztecs. They are ready to fall and their gems look great. A gem-monopoly is very intersting for us. And we need other leaders
;)

We don't need that many extra units to get the Aztecs. I suggest that we build factories and other improvements on short notice.

1275 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1275AD1.SAV)

A leader, woohoo ! I'm split between options #2 and #3... Suffrage will be incredibly helpful in maintaining the republic while we conquer the world, but the techs we get from TOE should guarantee us Hoover and might be used to buy 3-4 other techs and a good amount of gpt. The FP should probably wait until Edo is starved into submission.
Great going, Aggie ! I agree we should do some more leader-fishing in Aztec lands.

PS The gold we gave Japan for the peace deal included ToG and magnetism coming our way for an ~80 gpt discount.

Edit: It might be better to rush TOE before Suffrage. Assuming the AI's have started suffrage first, they might otherwise cascade to TOE if we complete it before we get another leader to rush that too.

Originally posted by jack merchant
....PS The gold we gave Japan for the peace deal included ToG and magnetism coming our way for an ~80 gpt discount.

Edit: It might be better to rush TOE before Suffrage. Assuming the AI's have started suffrage first, they might otherwise cascade to TOE if we complete it before we get another leader to rush that too.

That could be true. But we have to pay big bucks to the Russians to get the tech first. Shouldn't be a problem: we get that money back with newly obtained techs.

And I know that we didn't have to pay Japan for peace ;)

Alright, I'm up, I've got the save, I'll play after I wake up a little bit more. ;) I want Suffrage, because that would be good for the war weariness (and we'll have alot). The one thing I'm confused about is you people talking about rushing the ToE so they don't cascade to it...we only have one leader, so if we rush teh ToE, can't we not rush Suffrage, and build it from scratch defeating the purpose? Or do you get Suffrage with one of ToE's free techs? Sorry, remember this is my first time into the Industrial age in several months, I'm not familiar with the tech tree...

Wow, we've come a long way! :goodjob:

I can't believe they beelined to RP so quickly :mad:. I told you something was screwey - the Greeks headed straight for literature.

Having 2 extra coal to give the other rich civs was a huge bonus. Finally, all those warriors we sacrificed to the RNG are coming into use! ;)

As for the crucial decision, I've always been a big fan of ToE and Hoover over Univ Suff. The major concern I have is that if Hoover is built on another continent, it's useless to us even if we capture it. However, if we capture Univ Suff, we reap the benefits no matter where it is. And I agree with Jack Merchant - we'll definitely lose ToE if we take US. Who knows, maybe we'll get another leader (yeah right!) and be able to rush US as well.

Lastly, we've got to build some Galleons and get out to the Japanese islands ASAP. I would recommend an all sipahi (maybe one Rifle) force; I doubt those corrupt little cities will have offer much resistance.

The one thing I'm confused about is you people talking about rushing the ToE so they don't cascade to it...we only have one leader, so if we rush teh ToE, can't we not rush Suffrage, and build it from scratch defeating the purpose? Or do you get Suffrage with one of ToE's free techs?
They've been working on Univ Suffrage for a while (I think). If we rush Univ Suff, they will switch to ToE with a huge prebuild, and take it for sure. If we buy Scientific Method, it will probably break the bank, although we'd probably recoup the losses selling the techs we get from ToE which should be Atomic Theory and Electronics (remember to queue them up, if you decide that is the best route). We could use those techs to buy Industrialization cheap, and start building Univ Suff, although if we wouldn't have much of a chance of getting it if the AI has already started.

Jack merchant, get this: no-one is building Universal Suffrage at the moment! So no cascade from US to TEO. Only cascade possible is from Smith' to US and TEO!!! We will lose one of them. Which one is crucial for us???

I suggest a 2nd leader for TEO and a 3rd for the FP :p :cool: ;) :cool: :p ;)

cromagnon: you're right: the Japanese must go: our war weariness must end. :)

EDIT: and the Aztecs and Koreans must follow. Beware that we have a gpt deal with Korea...

they're crazy ! :smoke: I still prefer ToE though, as that will catch us up on tech for sure. We can then hurry a factory somewhere and nab Hoover as long as we hold on to Electronics.
Apart from the leaders you mentioned, I suggest we generate a 4th to nab Smith's as well :D After all, statistically speaking we only need ~48 elite victories for that to happen ;)
A final thought: Can we maybe buy one of the nations closest to the Jap islands into an alliance ? That may save valuable time..

I think I'll go with ToE, and hope that we get another leader fast. Priorities for my game: Get those last Japanese cities, get the ToE, and shift all our Siphai to the Aztec border (we have to nab the rest of their cities before Greece does).

BTW, now I'm actually going to play. ;)

Originally posted by jack merchant
I still prefer ToE though, as that will catch us up on tech for sure. We can then hurry a factory somewhere and nab Hoover as long as we hold on to Electronics.

In any other game I would prefer TeO. Why would this be different. War weariness?

Alliances with civs close to the Japanese may be expensive...


EDIT: cgannon64: your strategy sounds very sound. Ehm, was this English?

Originally posted by Aggie
LTurn 10 - 1275 AD

We have a leader now with which we can do the following:

- Build a FP in Edo (after the city ends the resistance)
- Buy industrialization and rush the Universal Suffrage outside Istanbul. Reduces War Weariness in a warmonger game.
- Buy Scientific method and rush TEO outside Istanbul. Expensive, but one turn later we can make big bucks with our nerw free techs Atomic Theory and Electronics. Plus we can use the Hoover Dam.

I would go for the 2nd option... We can always buy the techs we need... The FP is also needed though.






1275 AD and no FP on-line?

It took me a long time to realize it, but this is the most important building to get on-line early. I try to get it FINISHED by 500 AD. You have lost a fortune to corruption by ignoring this building. Even if you have to build it 2 cities from the capital - get in going. Having the second list of cities for corruption determination is major.

Yes, LKendter. Major :smoke: I really don't understand why I didn't build it in my last turn :crazyeye:

I should've built the FP in my turn, but I couldn't help but jump at the oppurtunity to get TWO wonders in 10 turns and screw all the AIs by making them cascade into Wealth!

[Inherited Turn] Lotsa damage done since I played, I must say, a great job. Those two Japanese cities will be a pain to reach, but we have to. Japanese settler builds filler city of Riza. I pay Lincoln WM, 23gpt, and 883g for Sanitation. Good deal, except for the hard cash part - but we'll gain that back in a few turns. ;)

[1280 AD - Turn 1] We lose our wines, lots of cities riot. My bad; I didn't think to try to get them again. I raise lux a notch. Our stacks teleport to the Aztec border, ready to roll now. I'm sorry guys, but I'm going to have to automate these workers, its too much to handle. I'll put them on "No Altering". Our super-stack (about 35+ units) could start moving towards Azteca now, but some of them need to heal, so they'll go next turn. Apparently no one has Sci Method, this is annoying. Our naval attack on Japan will be 2 Galleons and 2 Frigates for defense. Knowing this, I divert 6 Siphais off the front.

[1285 AD - Turn 2] Riots end around the nation. I put on some Zeppelin while I go MM'ing to fix some stagnant cities. The super-stack moves out, maybe 20 Siphai and 15 Artillery. I divert some of our workers to the front; a railroad link from our territory to the Aztec territory will be crucial. I find the one nation (apparently) that has Sci Method - Spain. We give the little friendly island nation our WM, 287g and 121gpt for it. Its a stiff price, but we'll make it up in the free techs.

[1290 AD - Turn 3] Military Acadamy built in Istanbul. I switch to ToE and rush it. Siphai/Artillery stack move towards Azteca. Damn they are slow on forest.

[1295 AD - Turn 4] ToE built in Istabul. We get Industrializatoin and The Corporation, not bad. Different then I usually get though. Lots of Japanese cities riot, I got on another MM spree. They're all on starvation mode now.

[1300 AD - Turn 5] Japanese riots end, cities starve. Troops are about 2 turns away from Azteca. The Frigate that will guard our galleons is almost done.

[1305 AD - Turn 6] Russians build Smith's. The Aztecs and Chinese sign an embargo against us. I'll be a little more careful around the Chinese. :hmm: I meet up with two Longbows in the hills by Tenochitlan. I use two Elites to take the Longbows out. First gives nothing, second gives a GREAT LEADER! [dance] I tell you, that RNG is making up for CG4. The Victorious Cromagnon (Hey I'll continue the trend) and the GL' head back towards the homeland. Considering all the options, I'll try to rush Suffrage in the nearest city, hoping they AIs don't nab it first. Guerillas look cool! :p I built one for MP duty, they are awesome looking. We should strike the Aztecs for the first time next turn.

[1310 AD - Turn 7] We capture Tzintzuntzen before the Greeks do. They had a massive stack of Infantry on its doorstep. In your face! :p I keep it, but refuse to keep anythign for then one Siphai in there, because its right on the capital's doorstep. The army leads off the attack of Tenochitlan. We take Tenchitlan with only moderate casualties, about 5 Siphai dead and several wounded. The Aztecs are gassed now. That was their last city over size 10. They only have 4 cities left. We should be able to rush Suffrage next turn, lets cross our fingers...

[1315 AD - Turn 8] You know, the Japanese are really stupid. They only bombard our corrupt, starving Japanese cities, rather then our core. :lol: Our GL ended his move on the railroad, so next turn he can be whisked off to wherever we choose and rush Suffrage. Tlaxcala falls in the North. I'm hoping to blitz the small northern cities using roads, lets see if it works. Nope. We can only get Siphai's up to the doorstep of a northern city, and that's it. Oh well. :) I've just discovered that we can attack the last big Aztec city, Teotihucan from here. I'll do it! The army leads off, and takes it! WOW! The last big Aztec city, their capital, had one unit in it. This is sad. By next turn or at the latest 2 from now, the Aztecs will be dead. Unfortunately we still have about 10 turns left on our gpt deal with Korea.

[1320 AD - Turn 9] I rush Suffrage in Edrine. I don't want to put EVERY wonder in Istanbul, after all. ;) Unfortuantely our big stack AGAIN ends on the doorstep of a city. Damn this is annoying. So now the fall of the Aztecs is pushed back to next turn, a maybe evn the next ADMINISTRATION!! We seem to have tech parity/tech lead with every Civ except Spain, who has Communism and we don't.

[1325 AD - Turn 10] Suffrage built! Oh yeah! :yeah: The Spanish cascade to Shakespeare's. Galleon/Frigate stack head out towards Japan's islands. We capture Tamuin and Calixtuahaca. The trade embargo between China and the Aztecs end. :lol: We destroyed the "Solid" Aztecs. I'd agree they were solid - they were everybody's whipping boy, and endured a whole lotta war. My final job in office is to *finally* complete an unbroken rail link between the homeland and our beachead near Korea. I shift our stack around so we are in our city closest to Korea. Only a few more turns, and Korea and Japan will go. Notes: Just keep on building Siphai and wait for the deal with Korea to end, unless you want to bait them into war somehow. I think a good idea would be to place a second stack in Ise, so we have a pincer movement.

Good luck cromagnon! The save:



EDIT: Having some trouble with Opera and the Upload folder, let me try again in IE.

Upload not working in Opera, IE, Netscape. Let me try zipping and attaching...

Nope, still too big. Should I email it to you, cromagnon?

Great turn of events cgannon :goodjob:

One remark though: It would have been best to choose the research branch to Electronics before hurrying TeO. That way we would have gotten the two expensive techs Atomic Theory and Electronics. However, you are correct that most civs are now in communism or monarchy, meaning: no money, no research, no real benefit from the techs for us, besides the opportunity to build Hoover Dam....

This is going to be fun. Oh wait, it's fun already :lol:

EDIT: wait wait wait :eek: We still have some gpt-deals with Korea. We should wait a couple of turns (I believe 6 to 8)..... Oh, I see you made a remark about it already cg ;)

EDIT2: cgannon64, I sent a PM :)

EDIT3: cgannon64, not that it mathers anymore, but Russia already had SciMethods when I played...

EDIT4: I believe we should switch on the 'always renogiate deal' option. I lost money without the warning and I believe we have more ongoing deals that we don't like that much anymore...

Great job, guys. I really don't know what's up with the ToE: you're supposed to be able to choose what tech to research next, and I remember doing so before. But since someone in GD posted a problem with it (ie it automatically gives you random techs), I've been queueing up Atomic -> Electronics out of habit, so the computer doesn't get any wierd ideas. It looks like we have a bit of time on Hoovers, although Russia is a research giant. We'll just have to 'relieve' Russia of Smith's :evil:

@LKendter: I was waiting for someone to tell us about the FP; we keep talking about it, but no one (including myself) does it. I'll see what I can do this time.

@CGannon, feel free to e-mail it to me: ansarip@hotmail.com if it's less than 1 Mb.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Great job, guys. I really don't know what's up with the ToE: you're supposed to be able to choose what tech to research next, and I remember doing so before. But since someone in GD posted a problem with it (ie it automatically gives you random techs), I've been queueing up Atomic -> Electronics out of habit, so the computer doesn't get any wierd ideas.

There's nothing 'up' with it. You don't get random techs. The first tech you get is the one you are researching at that time and the other one is your own choice as well.

Don't believe everything you read in GD ;)

Originally posted by Aggie


There's nothing 'up' with it. You don't get random techs. The first tech you get is the one you are researching at that time and the other one is your own choice as well.

Don't believe everything you read in GD ;)

Must have misclicked then. Damn it! :wallbash:

Emailed to Aggie and Cromagnon!

Got it.

Let's see if I can continue our streak of good luck. We're a Republic 981+151gpt, Refining in 34 at one scientist. The slider bar doesn't help much. We need universities (not that I built any)

Inherited turn: I turned on Always Renegotiate Deals, Wonder Initiation is already on. I try to deactivate as many automated workers as possible. Sorry, CGannon, but I just don't trust them.
A bunch of the Japanese cities are in disorder. "No soup for you!" Kagoshima has no defender - I send a musket there from Edo. I shuffle defenders to border cities to free up the Sipahi, and send 4 toward Matsuyama. We have 4 regular warriors that are just sucking up funds for no reason. They cost 160 to upgrade to guerillas each, so I disband them in the Japanese cities. Nara granary switched to marketplace. Osaka sipahi switched temple. Our ivory is not yet hooked up, and we need Kyoto to expand onto it. Guerillas look cool, but Infantry have 4 more defense for no extra shields, so I switch all of these where rubber is hooked up. I switch Sipahi in Izmit, and Urfa to infantry. Edrine and Uskudar switched to factories.
I sign RoP with America, so I can get to the Japanese city faster. I also renegotiate our dyes deal with him, and get 18 gpt (as opposed to 3) and 120 gold/WM. We are giving Korea his Saltpeter for 20 gpt. I cancel this so he can't make any more cavalry, and I move our explorers to his border so they might pillage his remaining horses or iron. So far, he lacks RP, so infantry shouldn't be a problem. To make up for the lost gpt, I sell dyes to Russia for 176+16gpt, and Free Artistry. I must have accidentally hit something, because we go to...
IBT: I get rid of our RoP with Korea, re-sign with everyone else including Greece, but not Russia (nothing to offer). Damn, the Russians have a huge navy...

[1] 1330AD: Istanbul Stock exchange -> factory. Ankara Barracks -> Bank. Shimonoseki temple -> marketplace. Izmit Infantry -> Factory. Urfa Infantry -> Factory. Konya Sipahi -> Factory. Rush temple in Kyoto. Move Sipahi from Teotihucan toward the Korean border (deal expires in 5). Our ships will take 8 turns to get to the nearest Japanese island. The Spanish will declare war against Japan for 38+17gpt and WM (I sign them on). Caesar has no military, so he'll probably do nothing against Japan.
IBT: Russia renews coal for furs, but I extort Cathy for an additional 15 gpt (she won't even discount Refining). I also sign RoP for 7 gold.

[2] 1335AD: Kyoto temple -> library. Iznik sipahi -> factory. We lose silks from Rome; instead of giving him tech, I get it from China for Iron (which he doesn't have hooked up yet - sucker!) and 13 gpt. I switch Tenochtilan to library so we can get more gems.

[3] 1340AD: Adana sipahi -> factory. Keep moving to the front.
IBT: America declares war on Russia!! Russia ropes Greece into a MPP. Greece declares war on America (it wasn't MPP, as America had already moved). Spices deal with Spain ends.

[4] 1345AD: Salonika sipahi -> factory. I trade coal for wines and WM with America. Gems get hooked up, I sell to Cathy for 110+18gpt.
IBT: Russia asks for (demands) 100gold + TM. As they just signed MPP with Greece, I pay them. Your time will come, Cathy...

[5] 1350AD: Aydin sipahi -> marketplace. Riza riots. Rush library in Tenochtilan for 100 after some forestry. Our troops inch toward Japan.

[6] 1355AD: Tenochtitlan library -> temple. Antalya and Bolu Sipahi -> factory. Bursa Sipahi -> worker. Edo riots despite 6 luxuries. At Matsuyama, we kill 3 Rifles, lose no sipahi, but the city holds. Looks like the Koreans will take it next round. Oure Alliance with Greece and Korea are up. I cancel Greece, but keep Korea as they are giving us 17 gold. Spain will give us Refining for 1510+146gpt. Steep, but we really need to get cracking on Atomic Theory, so I take it. I sell it to Greece for 17+69gpt. I give America Corporation for Incense and worker. No one else has anything worthwhile. Good news! We have 3 oils hooked up, and two more yet to be. Unfortunately, everyone else has it too.
IBT: A Spanish Ironclad (redlined) is retreating from Japan's islands. :hmm: At least they took one of the Japanese cities. Korea doesn't want to continue the alliance vs Japan. Certainly, Wang. I understand. :mwaha: He couldn't take Matsuyama.

[7] 1360AD: Mugla siphahi -> bank. Our Sipahi take Matsuyama, no losses (gotta love retreat!). Japan is down to one city. We have 7 luxuries, and I drop the lux rate to 10%.

[8] 1365AD: Nagoya infantry -> temple. I rest the troops in Matsuyama before going after Korea.
IBT: Spain wants a MPP. Haha! Rome is losing to China. America and Russia are more or less even.

[9] 1370AD: Istanbul factory -> Infantry. Kafa courthouse -> worker. Our marine corps finally reach the last bastion of Japanese resistane, Sapporo. I've been doing more and more forestry in the Aztec lands to get some culture in there (mainly to prevent settlement). Rush library in Calixtahuala (whatever!) for 44.
IBT: Greece and Japan sign peace, as does Spain.

[10] 1375AD: Calixtahuala library -> temple. Yokohama courthouse -> aqueduct. Our Sipahi capture Sapporo; Japan is no more. I didn't raze, just in case we need a forward base.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5jap.jpg
But there's no rest for the weary. I declare war on Korea respectfully. I sign Greece on for 405 gold. I rush temple in Edo so we get another ivory to trade. Gems get hooked up, and I sell to America for 56+26gpt.
The Battle ensues: Pillage Korean Iron. Against Ulsan, we lose one sipahi. At Wonsan, we retreat. Pusan is bombarded, killing one population and the barracks. The defenders there are 2 rifles and a pike, maybe another unit. Our navy (with some sipahi) head for Korea.

Some notes: We have two explorers within striking distance of Korea's horses. I didn't raze any cities, partly because of reputation/attitude, and partly because I don't want others to settle. We may have to disband later. Korea will fall to Sipahis. Greece (our next target) will not - they have way too many infantry, and we only have 9 artillery. We have 7 luxuries, and I've MM'ed the far off cities to be in WLTKD, for what it's worth. I think we should build FP in Iznik, with plans to place our palace a bit further north. Finally, once we start getting factories online in our core, we should crank out some infantry. Greece and Spain will sell steel for something like 130gpt, but I'll leave that decision up to Jack.

Good luck, Sultan Jack Merchant! http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1375AD.sav

And the screenshot of our core
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS5.jpg
PS. This is probably the last time I play, as I'll be
out of town for one month. I'll still follow and
occasionally chime in, but you'll have to bench me
for the time being.

Great job cromagnon. See what happened when you turned on 'always renegotiate deals'? We immedialtely got more from America for the dyes.

I absolutely agree with your decision not to raze any cities at this time. We should disband them, if we want to, once we have more of our own citizens in the cities than citizens of the former 'owner'. Reputation issue indeed.

I don't mind when cgannon64 chooses to automate, as long as he says it in his report, so that we - the ones that like to micro-manage- aren't surprised by it. I agree with Cromagnon: automated workers do a bad job.

But why didn't you build the FP yet? It would have taken no more than 9 turns in a core city.

Does Aggie ever sleep? No :p

PS. Thanks for a great job cromagnon. Hope to meet you next month in another SG. Because this one wil be over by then :)

EDIT: we also need more artillery. Our Sipahi are still strong and can match infantry, but artillery is a must here. I would say about 30 of them... Cromagnon placed the artillery perfectly north of Pusan. That's the way to do it: bombard the crap out the city with the artillery and then a final blow with the offensive troops :goodjob:

EDIT2: My suggestion for next victims after Korea: 1st Rome, 2nd China, 3rd Spain. They should all be easy targets. A war against Greece, America or Russia will be very bloody and should be postponed imho until we have about 50+ tanks and 50+ artillery.

EDIT3: Cgannon64, I know it's early for this question, but I want to know. You say that conquest is the only 'honorable' win. What about domination? I would say that's also OK. If not, then we have to think about how to avoid a UN win (by us, we are the most popular nation) or a space race win by the AI. Or a cultural win (America).

EDIT4 :eek: Beware :eek: The FP is in the build queue of Iznik. If that's the place you want to have it built, OK, but if not: that's the reason why you can't choose it as a build option! You should have pointed that out Cromagnon ;) :( :p :)

I didn't build the FP because I was waiting for factories and for a nicely-placed city to finish its current build. I know, it was kinda :smoke:

Yep. Pusan won't survive the next barrage. There are also some reinforcements headed toward Seoul by sea.

Rome will probably be taken out by China. Spain makes an attractive target because they have all those spices we don't. I'm hoping Greece and Russia will beat down America (the first two are a few techs ahead). And yes, Greece has way too many troops. Granted, some of them are knights and hoplites, but still...

As far as victory conditions go, Conquest was the only acceptable one for the Warmongers. We'll have to abandon a bunch of cities to avoid Domination, and we'll build the UN to make sure the vote doesn't go through. I'm hoping we can strike at their capitals by the time the space race nears a close. And again, America is fighting a two-front war; I think we have enough culture (although I didn't check) to prevent them from winning.

And yes, Cromagnon doesn't sleep either. ;)

Originally posted by cromagnon
There are also some reinforcements headed toward Seoul by sea.

Seoul is too big at the moment to attack with Sipahi. Their forces get a defence bonus, so artillery is need first.

Got it.
It has been a pleasure playing with you, cromagnon.

Nice to see you guys doing LOTS better after your monarch loss. I must admit I was a little dubious at you taking on Emperor after losing on Monarch.

I must echo LK's comments about the FP though. An early FP in a 'poor' location is far far more powerful and effective than a late FP in an optimal one. The earlier you build the FP, the more powerful you'll be. In my TDG as an example, we're planning where to build it in 500BC.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Nice to see you guys doing LOTS better after your monarch loss. I must admit I was a little dubious at you taking on Emperor after losing on Monarch.



:lol: :D Hehehehe....

Nice work Cromagnon. Good to see Japan taken out and some nice trading. About the automation: I hate it too, but at this point, when you put it on "Don't Alter" they pretty much build railroads. I like MMing too, but 40 workers is a little much for me...:crazyewye:

Good luck jack!

About the automation: I hate it too, but at this point, when you put it on "Don't Alter" they pretty much build railroads.


One thing you can do at least, which still probably isn't acceptable in most SGs is to put 'railroad to' and get them to railroad between major cities.

Also, 'building railroads' isn't enough; they actually have to build them in the right places :)

-Sirp.

Executive summary: We have an FP andKorea is dead

Preturn: Wake up some Sipahi in the former Aztec lands and send them towards Korea. Shuffle some troops around in the homeland - some cities are completely undefended ! Do we want to be sneak-attacked ? Give China Industrialization and electricity in exchange for communism; we will want to build some police stations as they combat WW as well as corruption. Salonika changed to infantry. Bursa switched from factory to university - it's never going to be a shield-producer until offshore platforms.
Not used to 'always renegotiate' I accidentally extend the ROP with Spain when it comes up :smoke:

1380 AD (1) Pollution near Antalya. Looking over the workers, I discover another automated one. I hate that. I also try to bring some back from Azteca but the Greeks are clogging up the railroad. Two workers are clearing jungle near Tzintzuntzen :smoke: These are the evils of automation: we aren't done improving our core yet ! Switch Kagoshima to worker. Apart from a military railroad, we should not be improving our hopelessly corrupt colonial holdings when our core cities can be made more productive.
Take Pusan after artillery bombardment. Lose one Sipahi to a pike, kill that pike, a rifle a cav and a knight in the city. Move our troops near Pyongyang onto the mountain.

IT Greeks take Pyongsong. Korean counterattack triggers the Greek MPP with the Russians.
Rifle dies to Sipahi near Pyongyand, another Sipahi is forced to retreat by longbow.

1385 AD (2) Edrine builds factory, starts infantry. Uskudar builds factory, starts artillery. Bingol finishes aqueduct, starts worker (it's not growing anyway). Istanbul builds infantry, starts hospital. Salonika builds infantry, starts factory.
Resistance ends at Ulsan and Pusan. Lose one Sipahi but Pyongyang is ours now. It has 6 resisters. Taking it was easier as it never (!) had a border expansion. We now have 5 extra dyes for trade. Locate some more workers near Ise to be sent back to the core.
The Americans lack iron ! Iron and 60 gpt buys Steel. Spain and Russia have combustion, nobody else does.

IT Rome and China sign a peace treaty. Russia and Spain ally versus America. 2 Korean rifles die to the Sipahi that landed near Seoul.

1390 AD (3) Nagoya completes temple, starts worker. All these workers can eventually be merged back into the cities, but for now, we need more of them. The people love us and expand the palace.
The Inf/artillery stack moves into position near Seoul. The Americans have lost their source of saltpeter too, so I sell it to them for wm, 7gpt and 430 gold, all they to have spare.
I try to sell Greece dyes but they have no income to spare. Combustion costs approximately 4600 gp at the moment, I think I'm going to wait until we have enough money to steal.

1395 AD (4) Kyoto builds temple, starts worker. Nagoya builds worker, starts factory. An elite Sipahi polishes off a Korean longbow and we get a GL, Selim ! The victorious unit is named for Swiftsure in the good tradition started by Sultan cromagnon. Unfortunately, a Russian worker is blocking the railroad back home so I'll have to wait a turn to build the FP. Seoul is bombed back to size 12 but I'll wait until the defenders have taken some damage before storming the city. Hurry libraries in Pyongyang, Pusan, Tokyo, Edo and Matsuyama. For us scientific Ottomans hurrying libraries is cheaper than temples for culture purposes.
I move a Sipahi stack in position next to Wonsan. I suspect the reason it didn't fall before is that the earlier attacks on it were across a river.

IT Greeks and America sign peace. The Greeks kindly soften op Wonsan for us. Thanks, Alex !

1400 AD (5) Tokyo builds library, starts factory. Edo builds library, starts FP. Iznik, Urfa and Izmit build factory, start infantry. Bingol worker -> market. Uskudar arty-arty. Edrine inf- harbor.
Crap. Now a Greek infantry is blocking the railroad. The FP will have to wait another turn.
We take Wonsan with no casualties, 2 Sipahi become elite. Arty bombardment destroys bank and university in Seoul. I wait another turn to attack.
Should have done this earlier - we can afford to turn off the luxury rate.

1405 AD (6) Istanbul builds hospital, starts infantry. Tenoch temple - courthouse. Konya factory -> bank. Selim arrives in Edo and completes the FP. Kyoto builds worker, starts factory. It will need some worker help to become truly productive though. WLTKD days end in several towns due to loss of luxuries. However, it's still a profitable move.
Seoul still gets to live another day. Capitals are highly defended, and it is built on a hill.

1410 AD (7) Edo finishes FP. Our income jumps by 225 gpt ! It starts a market. Bursa builds university, starts bank. Nagasaki temple -> granary. Kagoshima worker -> library. Move the scientist to Ise and set the one in Iznik back to work.
Storm and take Seoul. Storm Nampo'o and take that too. Then, feeling lucky, I attack the southern town and autoraze it. Still having some Sipahi left over, I attack Paegam and capture it. We have now destroyed the Fragile Koreans.
Possible weed: I sell the Greeks dyes for WM+ gold, thus restricting us to peace for the next 20 turns. This is because
(a) our city defenses still consist of cardboard cutouts near their borders, and of Sipahi in Azteca and Korea
(b) we have a big shortage of guns to fight their infantry
(c) they have a sizable army in our newly conquered territory which could wreck havoc if they decide to attack us

1415 AD (8) The Americans invite us to ally against the Spanish. No thanks.
Edrine builds harbor, starts infantry. Nara market - university. Aydin market - harbor. Hurry a settler out of Seoul to claim an oil near Paegam. Iznik inf-bank. Uskudar inf - hospital. Urfa inf-bank. Reshuffle the army in Korea. Sipahi now concentrated in Pyongyang, Seoul and Wonsan. Upgrade a couple of vet spears to infantry.

1420 AD (9) A Chinese frigate shows up near the former Japanese island city of Sapporo. What are they doing there ? Just in case, I send the Sipahi Army to Bolu near Kaifeng (there are some Chinese cavs there). Adana builds factory, starts infantry, Ankara bank -> university. Riza temple -> library. Izmit inf-bank.

1425 AD (10) Chinese frigate disappears. Izumo temple -> library. Pollution near Antalya. Zonguldak founded to the SE of Seoul, starts library for culture. ZZZZ.... worker action only.

I'll reiterate this: we do NOT want to automate workers ! There remained quite a bit to be done to improve food and production in our core, some cities can still benefit from jungle-clearing, mountains need to be mined and railroaded and our new FP core in Japan can use some work. Imagine losing the race for Hoover (not yet available btw) because of an inadequately improved city !
I suggest building some hospitals quick, not just because of growth, but also to get battlefield med as a possible prebuild. I am nost sure we want to move our palace now; Istanbul is positioned such that the cities to its east and north profit from it, that effect would be lost if we moved it.
Barring some unexpected sneakattack, the next player should have some peace and infrastructure building to do. We need stock exchanges for Wall Street too.
I have not yet bought combustion; we can easily afford it though. It's just that I don't want to give the tech leaders (Spain and Russia) an additional cash boost to jump further ahead. Stealing it might be a better idea, we have enough money to do so. I didn't feel lucky enough to try.
If you happen to go to war with Greece somehow, remember that the Greeks have +/- 15 infantry and some cavs in their Korean acquisitions. There's one arty in Istanbul; I thought it would make a good staging area but only ever got around to building one.
Istanbul and Uskudar are our most productive cities; we should get a prebuild for Hoover going in either of these as soon as atomic theory shows up on the diplo screen. We'll need BatMed to do it in Istanbul; you may also add a coal plant in either to speed up production.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1425_AD.SAV)

Jack Merchant, sound like a great turn.

I agree with most of what you're suggesting. But we also may want to upgrade our military (shift-U). That way we have a decent defense in our cities, namely infantry.

true. It will cost 1540 gold for 11 regular spears though. Not that we really need vet inf in our core.

We're the save Jack Merchant? :)

:confused: What do you mean ? The save at the bottom of my post ?

Originally posted by jack merchant
:confused: What do you mean ? The save at the bottom of my post ?

I may not be looking straight, and if so I apologise. But I don't see a save attached to your 10-turn report...

that's weird; I just downloaded it to check and it is most certainly there. I could email it to you if you wish.

Originally posted by jack merchant


I'll reiterate this: we do NOT want to automate workers ! There remained quite a bit to be done to improve food and production in our core, some cities can still benefit from jungle-clearing, mountains need to be mined and railroaded and our new FP core in Japan can use some work. Imagine losing the race for Hoover (not yet available btw) because of an inadequately improved city !




I am glad to see one of the game players supporting the correct view. I automated a few doing test and watch them road jungle before clearing, rush to improve 1/1 cities, improve mountains that will never be used by a city, etc.

Not to mention they can't pull of stunts like the below:
Southern area has NO rivers while the northern area has plenty. My solution:
Clear a couple forest and build a 10+ chain of irrigation heading south. I could the southern cities large and productive while automation NEVER would done so.


My SGs prohibit any automation except for Shift-P for pollution cleanup late in the game. Even that isn't always, as automated workers love to clean terrain next to AI borders that you are at war with.




As for 40 workers - don't look at my games. I would be added workers big time if I had just 40.

Originally posted by jack merchant
that's weird; I just downloaded it to check and it is most certainly there. I could email it to you if you wish.

Thanks. My e-mail is ageling@xs4all.nl

I apologize for the workers in former Aztecia. I was trying to get a military railnet going there, because the damn Greeks kept clogging up our existing one. That's why the workers were clearing jungle there; I think I did one :smoke: thing, which was not to stack enough workers, but that was more of a mis-click thing.

I also considered upgrading our spears, but like Jack Merchant, I hate regular troops. I think our core cities can build infantry every 3 turns with their factories, so it shouldn't take long to reinforce.

Don't worry about Greece - like Aggie said, I think Spain may make a more attractive target at this point. It's really too bad we can' t extort them for tech. :p But they would make a nice steal target, unless they're communist (which I doubt).

Say, isn't Swiftsure up? :confused:

Yeah, but that doesn't stop people from wanting to take a look at the game :) I do so all the time..

the railnet turned out to be very useful, thanks. However, if you're going to use the jungle only for transportation purposes and don't need to work it, there's no need to clear it first imho.

If we're going to go after Spain, we should buy combustion first and build up a whole lot more arty. Also, I extended the ROP by accident, but I think we can declare war without a reputation hit as long as we have no troops in their territory when we declare.

Originally posted by jack merchant
....Also, I extended the ROP by accident, but I think we can declare war without a reputation hit as long as we have no troops in their territory when we declare.

I'm not so certain about that. Imho we DO get a rep hit if we attack with a ROP deal. We just should wait ten more turns.

EDIT: By the way cromagnon and jack merchant, I suggested to go after Rome and China. Spain is on a useless island. Rome and China are on a great spot to prepare the war against Russia and America. Naturally we can only go to war against these giants once we have:

- airports
- lots and lots of artillery
- lots and lots of tanks/Sipahi

And we may be getting to the point were we start researching ourselves... although I like the concept of stealing tech ;)

got it but doubt i'll be able to play and post until tomorrow night.

OK, so automation is bad, I know. I'm just lazy and sometimes, when its later game like this, the little Satan on my shoulder starts telling me that it won't matter...:crazyeye:

Nice work. I'd have to agree with war with Rome - they are weak and they would make a very nice beachead. I think we should save Greece for tanks, because they have a LOAD of infantry.

Good luck swiftsure.

Rome it is then, hurry factory in sinop and MM to produce transports , hurry hospital in uskadur and change istanbul to coal plant. We need combustion for transports so we steal it off russia.

1430ad-trade rop to abe for rop and 2gpt,rop to mao for rop,dyes to russia foe 21gpt,rop to greece for rop.

nagasaki,granary-factory. sinop,factory-transport.

troops return to sinop from korean provinces.

1435ad- dyes to abe for w/m and 460gp,rop to russia for rop,coal,w/m,53gpt and 1395gp to russia for mass production.

istanbul,coal plant-sipahi. satsuma,temple-marketplace. antayla,factory-infantry. konya, hospital-coal plant. bolu,factory-sipahi. mugla,bank-factory.

1440ad- trade iron and 13gpt to mao for silks.

iznik,bank-hospital. kagoshima,library-factory. uskudur,hospital-cathedral. shimonoseki,courthouse-markrtplace.

1445ad- istanbul,sipahi-battlefied medicine. osaka,temple-courthouse. edrine,hospital-transport. izumo,library-courthouse. sinop,transport-transport.urfa,bank-sipahi. riza,library-aquaduct.

1450ad- trade coal and combustion to abe for wines,w/m,47gpt and 500gp. trade gems to russia forw/m and 340gp.

kafa,infantry-factory. transport hurried in sinop.

1455ad- izmit,bank-sipahi.aydin,harbor-granary. sinop transport-transport. bolu,sipahi-sipahi.

Our mighty invasion fleet of 2 transports sets out from sinop.

1460ad- nagoya,factory-sipahi. yokohama,aquaduct-marketplace.

i have to raise our lux to 10% to stop 7 or 8 cities revolting.

1465ad- iznik,hospital-infantry. nara,university-factory.
uskudur,cathedral-infantry. konya,coal plant-palace. salonika,factory-sipahi. ise,library-temple.

our invasion force lands in unclaimed territory north of pompeii.

1470ad- adana,hospital-sipahi. ankara,university-factory.

We declare war on rome and move adjacent to pompeii.

1475ad- kyoto,factory-sipahi. sinop,transport-sipahi.tamuin,library-harbour.

attacks by sipahi capture both pompeii and antium.8 sipahi are in reach of rome on the next turn excluding the transport which will land at pompeii (if you want it to go elsewhere please feel free to change its landing point.) one more transport is en route.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1475AD.SAV

Konya is building the palace as a prebuild for hoovers.

Russia and Spain both have flight but we have enough money to steal it. i'll leave that up to the next person.

Still looks great :)

Got it! I'll play tomorrow. More urgent mathers tonight than CG5. Don't worry, it's still CIV3 ;)

EDIT: I don't feel happy about that ROP with Greece. I think we better cancel it next time we can.

EDIT2: I still have to download the file, my modem is busy with other things at the moment. :p

Great going, swiftsure ! Why pay the AI for tech when you can just take what you want ? :D
Interesting to see the AI's go to flight and ignore atomic theory :crazyeye:

Nice work swiftsure. Lets hope Ottoman victim number 4 comes up soon. ;) :D I like the idea of stealing techs - we just have to make sure that it is from someone we are willing to war with (e.g. NO GREECE! :lol: ).

Good luck Aggie, lets finish up our Roman beachhead. :)

Aggie. definately cancel rop with greece, i'm tempted to make them the next victims of our reeducation program.

JM. they didnt even go for tanks?

Any ideas on our prefered victory method?

Nice work guys.

Keep in mind that Greece and Russia signed a MPP during my reign, so that may cause some problems, unless we sign one in a MA vs the other.

@Swiftsure: According the the rules, Conquest is the only acceptable victory method.

Originally posted by cromagnon
@Swiftsure: According the the rules, Conquest is the only acceptable victory method.

That means that we have to raze cities at some point (domination...). I suggest to take out the Romans, Chinese and Spanish with help of the big three. After that we go after Greece with help of Russia and America... I'm tempted to declare to China now and get America, Russia and Greece as allies... That way the armies of the others get casualties as well.

They didn't go for tanks, because atomic theory and electronics are required techs for motorized transportation - if we have to let the others do the research for us, it'll be some time until tanks.
This is a good thing, imho, since our Sipahi give us an advantage in inf/artillery warfare.

I have no preference re the Greek ROP. I know that Alex can't really be trusted; he just sneakattacked me with a ROP in place in my current game (but that may just have been Deity SOP).

I'm off for my sabbatical (from the game). Good luck, gentlemen, and I'll be watching with anticipation. :thumbsup:

Yes, Jack Merchant. I think Alex is always a sniveling backstabber. :D

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'm off for my sabbatical (from the game). Good luck, gentlemen, and I'll be watching with anticipation. :thumbsup:

Yes, Jack Merchant. I think Alex is always a sniveling backstabber. :D

Thanks again. We'll do our best :goodjob:
I noticed that our defence is very weak on our little home continent. One of our most important cities is defended with a spear. I will upgrade and also try to get friendly with Greece. We have a ROP and still he's cautious with us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-Greek-war2.JPG

To be continued.

PS. I will ignore your comments, as I'm playing right now. This happened in turn one by the way ...

Originally posted by cromagnon
I think Alex is always a sniveling backstabber. :D

Speaking of the devil :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pre-turn: Switch a large number of cities to infantry. Upgrade the out-dated units (for 1700 gold). Military is key having this strong neighbour. Decide not to steal tech. Why do we have gpt deal with China :mad: Now we have to wait for 12 turns before we can atack! I cancel ROP with Spain.

IT1: We renew our gems deal with America and get 29 gpt now (+3).
IT2: Guys, this game is turning ugly. Greece declares war. :eek: Adana barely survives the initial attack. We lose 8 workers in the first blow. Greece gets 16 infantry next to Pusan. We can consider the city as lost. :(

Turn 1 - 1480 AD 6 cities in civil unrest because of the cancelled lux deal with Greece. We have to get help from others. Russia gets w/m and 525 gold. America gets 570 gold. Spain gets 450 gold. China is left out, because we want to conquer them... We want more luxuries to get rid of war weariness: Mass Production to America for furs and Incense.

Our war at home: One of our Sipahi transports to Rome heads back home. Rome must be conquered with the troops already there. We beat three infantry and one Cavalry without a scrath. We lose two vs Cavalry however.... Decided to abandon Pusan. :cry: It can't be saved and it's corrupt. Only problem: do we get a rep hit? It's a size 6 city and 3 citizens were still Korean.
Our war in Rome: It takes 5 Sipahi to conquer Rome and Copernicus.

IT: We lose 2 Sipahi in the 2nd attack wave of the Greek.

Turn 2 - 1485 AD A lot of cities go into 'we love the ... day'. Some are in unrest though. Our army is average compared to Russia and America. Greece is still stronger.

Our war at home: Lose lose 3 Sipahi and 1 infantry to take out 2 Cavalry and 8 infantry. The secret is artillery.
Our war in Rome: Two Sipahi attacks are needed for the final blow vs Rome. The second gives us a leader :jump: I made a little mistake. Rome still has a city on an island, Pisae. A transport goes to meet our future fellow countrymen.

IT: We lose another former Korean city: Ulsan. Two Sipahi died in Greek attacks. The 3rd Greek attack wave is not very impressive.

Turn 3 - 1490 AD Battlefield Medicine built in Istanbul. Lots of military built and started. Russia gives us flight for 230 gpt and Ivory.

IT: Abe asks us 'How are things going in Ottomans?' and wants to extend the saltpeter deal for 7gpt. No way Abe. During re-negotiation he wants to give us 635 gold instead and I accept. One Sipahi was killed by Greek cavalry.

Turn 4 - 1495 AD Military built. I decide not to buy Atomic Theory until I see that America is building Hoover. We can use the money.

Our war at home: Our artillery bombards Rhodes. Some citizens die and Rhodes appears to have at least 4 infantry.
Our war in Rome: Two cavalry approach former Pompeii. Decide to create a Sipahi-army with our remote leader. No wonders to be built, so what was I to do? The army kills both cavalry.

IT: We lose one infantry.

Turn 5 - 1500 AD More military built. Our military advisor says: 'Compared to the, we have an average army' :cool: . Again artillery attack on Rhodes. Minor fighting.

IT: Greek troop movement

Turn 6 - 1505 AD Military built

Our war at home: Our Sipahi kill 7 infantry, with help of artillery. One Sipahi and one infantry dies.
Our war in Rome: Our troops land west of Pisae. The Russians are already there!

IT: Greek cavalry kills Sipahi

Turn 7 - 1510 AD Military built. The Russians have Amphibious war. No thank you... Airport rushed in Pompeii. For later...

Our war in Rome: Rome survives our initial attack. The have one conscript rifleman left.

IT: Spain and Russia sign MA against America. Didn't you know they were evil... Rusia takes out the last Roman rifleman. Rome is gone and we don't have a corrupt city. :) Greece also had troops on the island and managed to kill a Sipahi. They also killed 1 infantry in our homeland.

Turn 8 - 1515 AD Military built. Greece wants to pay us for peace. No way, we still have MA's going with Russia and America. We are allowed to make peace, but why would we at this point?

IT: Russia wants MPP. I refuse and give World Map.

Turn 9 - 1520 AD Military built. Greece tries to capture the 'Russian' city Pisae... The forces that threatened the former Korean cities 9 turns ago now appear near core empire. But they are slow moving units...

IT: China and Greece sign a MA against America. World war 4 or 5 or was it 6?

Turn 10 - 1525 AD Military built. We take out 7 infantry and one cavalry without a loss. Have to love that artillery :hammer:

1525 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1525AD1.SAV)

Notes for the next player:

- Have fun! This is a great game and for the first time I really think we are going to win :D
- Why? Well, Greece is our strongest opponent and still is no threat. Their attacking force is ridiculous at best.
- We can sit back and wait for them to enter our land. We then bombard the ... out of them and finish it off with Sipahi. The Sipahi is starting to be my favorite UU :love:
- Beware: I left our cities in the centre of the empire undefended. I figured that we needed the forces near the Greek border. Note that they have cavalry: movement of three.
- Get tanks ASAP. With that you are going to conquer Greece in no-time.
- Watch out for China. They may sneak attack us in former Rome
- Defend our resources, like I did with the rubber near the Greek border ;)

IIRC, when abandoning one of your cities, the only civ you get an attitude (not rep) hit with is the original owner. In this case, the original owner is dead :)
Could we have sent the Roman leader back to the mainland and saved him for Hoover ? I don't know what kind of fleet the Greeks had to prevent that.
In either case, we might get another one in the war against the Greeks. And I feel mighty chuffed at building an army with our original leader :D

edit: where's the save ?
edit II: Great going, Aggie ! I'm also impressed with the AI's cleverness in attacking us while we were busy attacking Rome.

@Jack Merchant: I added the save.

I decided NOT to go to our main land with the leader, because Greece appears to have quite a navy. And it wasn't worth the risk. Also we have a pre-build for hoover with which we get it for sure. And we will get more leaders. I'm sure.

It was clever from the AI to attack us while we were busy, but we made a few mistakes:

- A ROP with Greece :rolleyes:
- Almost no defence :nono:
- A gpt deal with our next victim, China :confused:

But we managed to pull through. I am sure that we will have glorious times ahead of us :goodjob:

Looks like I'm inheriting a great turn! Not much homework today, this will be the first thing I do once I'm done. My priorities will be getting a nice sized force ready outisde of China and to eliminnate the Greeks in the West. If we can solidify the West under our iron fist, we've just stranded most of their military and left it to one front. Then we can get tanks and move in on the homeland.

I think we should keep Graecian cities and raze the rest. Sound good? :)

Originally posted by cgannon64
I think we should keep Graecian cities and raze the rest. Sound good? :)

I'm afraid of the culture flip factor regarding the Greeks. We could also raze a couple of their cities... Better to settle with our own people on the place were once was a Greek town :) ... As long as we keep MA's with the rest, there will not be any real rep hits. After the Greeks are gone, who cares about reputation :lol:

The western part of the Greek empire is unimportant imho. I would concentrate on the core empire of Greece.

@Aggie: ah, now it's my turn to overlook the save !:) I take your point about the leader - plus the AI always know where your units are so it might very well have carried out a 'search and destroy'on it.

@CGannon: we might want to rush some settlers out of our western cities and replace the Greek cities with those. I think they have quite a bit of culture.

Originally posted by Aggie

The western part of the Greek empire is unimportant imho. I would concentrate on the core empire of Greece.

Do they have a large military there though? That's what I'm worried about. :)

Originally posted by cgannon64


Do they have a large military there though? That's what I'm worried about. :)

During the ten turns that I played they were only threatening in the first and second turn. After that they obviously moved all their military from these cities. I wouldn't worry too much about the former Korean cities. They are corrupt and can be retaken quite easily.

Thanks for the info Aggie. I'm off to play right now. :)

Alright, here is the report. Not a bad set of turns, a gradual increase in our position. But DAMN was it long! Almost two hours to do 10 turns!

[Inherited Turn] Nice empire we got here. :D From the looks of it, we won't be getting Tanks until the next administration, so I can pretty much do very little fighting. We trade Isabella our WM, Coal, Iron, and 750g for Amphibious Warfare. Marines have two extra attack. :) EDIT: In retrospect, this was a BAD TRADE! Siphai have 8 attack anyway! D'oh! :wallbash:

(IBT) Our deal with Lincoln ends. Mao offers us an RoP - as if! :lol: Russia offers us a gpt deal for dyes, as if we need MORE gpt. ;)

[1530 AD - Turn 1] A few fringe cities riot. A Siphai takes out a Greaecian "attack". Our stack of Arty's are ready to take out a minor Greece city next turn. Arty's and Siphais take out the rest of the Graecian "attack". I realize that the Graecian city I plan to attack is over a river, so our battle plans are delayed another turn as the stack will have to move again. A few armies shift around. A few workers put on Pollution Patrol

(IBT) Russia and America sign peace. Russia offers us an RoP, whcih we decline. Greece kills a few Siphai. LOTS Of cities riot...wonder what the cause was?

[1535 AD - Turn 2] I found the riot culprit - I accidentally lowed lux, stupid me. We seige Rhodes - I count LOTS of Infantry. We kill LOTS of infantry in Rhodes, with minimal losses and lots of redlined Siphai. After a few new Siphai come in, Rhodes falls! Wow, that was ALOT of defenders for a little city. Luckily we had very few losses. The city of Troy falls in the West, I'm unsure if we can hold it. I automate a bunch of workers - its harmless now.

(IBT) Ha! Mao demands Iron and 13gpt! I refuse, naturally. He makes an excuse, and war is avoided (for now). Greece moves troops towards Ankara. I hope to cut them off.

[1540 AD - Turn 3] I clean up the leftover Greacian troops around Rhodes, killing maybe 4 or 5 and only losing one of our Infantry. I move a very large stack of Arty's near Knossos. I plan to bomb the hell out of it before moving in the Siphai (who are currently healing in Rhodes) to take it. A few turns of Arty fire are necessary because it is at the dreaded size 6. War Weariness takes its toll on our fringe cities - I raise lux another notch, to 30%. That eats about 200 gpt of our 600 gpt budget, but we really don't need it anyway, and its better then starving cities.

(IBT) Troy withstands the Graecian assault, thanks to its size (6) and its Arty's. A few Cavs dart out from Greece, capture a worker and kill a stray Inf or two.

[1545 AD - Turn 4] Stray Graecian cavs are swiftly dealt with. Our first Arty attack knocks Knossos down to size 5, not bad. By the end of the shelling, Knossos is down to size 1, most of its improvements are gone, and I count about 5 or 6 Infantry, not bad. I decide to go onward with the attack. The Battle for Knossos was a breeze up until the final Infantry - he managed to kil about 5 of our Siphai singlehandly, not bad. Knossos finally falls, and we suffered moderate casualties, about 5 or 6 Siphai. We also captured an Arty.

(IBT) Our wine deal with Lincoln ends. The Chinese invade one of Greece's western holdings with a transport full of Infantry. My endless struggles with happiness continue as alot of cities riot.

[1550 AD - Turn 5] I call up Lincoln and Wines and Atomic Theory for our WM, Coal, Dyes, and 5550g. Atomic THeory was only another 3000g, so I couldn't pass it up. We're now TWO techs away from tanks! Here I make a crucial decision - we shall invade Greece. Even if invading just means sitting on a mountain and shelling the hell out of a city until its size 1 before we attack, I'll do it! I decide the best angle of attack is the slower route through the mountains, so I shift our Arty's and Siphai and Infantry. I just noticed - the Greeks are ready to attack Rhodes with a HOPLITE! :lol: Even worse, one of our Infantry is redlined to kill him! :ack: We lose two Siphai taking out two stray Infantry. We drop off a mix of units in Rome, continued preperations for the Chinese invasion. Most of our healty Siphai move into Greece.

(IBT) Spanish take over Cheju and bring in reinforcements. Dang, they serious!

[1555 AD - Turn 6] :hmm: Apparently our deal with America only made MORE riots...anyway I do a streak of MMing. I'm faced with a dillemma in Troy - make it stop rioting by starvation, letting it drop below size 6, or let it riot? I decide to starve it. Wow, we must have hit a new PLANE of War Weariness - the ENTIRE city of Tenochitlan, that's 12 citizens, went from WLTKD to full riot. Ouch. More cleaning up. Troy is pretty much secure, as the last two Graecian Infantry moved to the jungle. The super-stack moves one tile more into Greece.

(IBT) Riots end around the nation. A few Graecian Infantry kill themselves on out stack, killing one Siphai.

[1560 AD - Turn 7] I send most of our new Siphais to the Western front. We have TOO many units to the East, and I want to get more of Greece's cities then China. Stacks in place for the two big attacks next turn: the attack on Atzcapolco and the grand seige of Delphi.

(IBT) A very bad IBT. A MAJOR slipup by myself and a Graecian Guerrilla captures about 5 of our workers..CURSES! Also, Istanbul riots. Damn this WW is bad.

[1565 AD - Turn 8] Atzcapulco is captured, but with HEAVY casualties. About half of our Siphais (out of maybe 10) are killed, the rest redlined. The Seige of Delphi is moderately successful. 2 citizens killed, every unit wounded (I counted about 8) and just about every improvement destroyed. I refuse to attack until its at size 5. Annual clearing of Knossos is successsful.

(IBT) Did you know that we have ONE source of horses? It was taken out by a Graecian Destroyer, now I have to rehook it up...argh!

[1570 AD - Turn 9] Damn, it is a CHORE to fire all those Artys. Delphi down to size 7. Every improvement is detstroyed, or at least that's what I can guess - I destroyed alot the first turn, and none the second so...:p

(IBT) Lots of Marines built, because we lost the damn horses.

[1575 AD - Turn 10] Horses hooked up. All Marines switched to Siphai. Have you ever heard a Marine get promoted? Hey says "Yeah!" in a very funny voice...most have been a programmer voice acting! Delphi dropped to size 2. I begin the ground attack. Eek! Our army dies, after I push the limit and attack three times in a row with him. Oh well, we can make them at three turns a pop. Delphi falls quite easily. I decide against razing it - its very far away from another big city, and its very small. Plus I want the railroads to be ours and ours alone! Hmm, I wonder if a garrison of 48 troops will keep the peace?

Notes: I suggest sending gradual reinforcements to the West, and continue taking cities there. For the East, I suggest continuign this seige-until-below-6 strategy, but raze from now on. Good luck!

And the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5_1575AD.sav

Got it & will play tomorrow (need to go zzz).
One question: our alliances against the Greeks run out next turn and WW is off the charts. Would anyone mind if I made peace then and started preparing for a Chinese war ?

PS LOVE the name you gave your leader, Aggie ! Now, to make it true... :)

Originally posted by jack merchant
Got it & will play tomorrow (need to go zzz).
One question: our alliances against the Greeks run out next turn and WW is off the charts. Would anyone mind if I made peace then and started preparing for a Chinese war ?

PS LOVE the name you gave your leader, Aggie ! Now, to make it true... :)

No, IIRC, they declared war on us, so we can make peace. Just try to get something good for it. ;)

Originally posted by jack merchant
Got it & will play tomorrow (need to go zzz).
One question: our alliances against the Greeks run out next turn and WW is off the charts. Would anyone mind if I made peace then and started preparing for a Chinese war ?

PS LOVE the name you gave your leader, Aggie ! Now, to make it true... :)

I went to bed at 2 AM. Guess I'm not the only CFC-addict. About the leaders: I like to be a bit creative...

@cgannon: You did what I didn't dare to do: capture the Greek cities.

I'm sure that all other civs went to monarchy or communism because of the ongoing wars. We're still in republic, so let's raise that lux bar and take out the Greeks :D I say this without having a look at the save. I'm at work you know ;)

i dont know! one night away from comp and you lot start a blood bath.

BTW as were only one tech from electronics have we got a hoover pre-build going or are we hoping for a leader.

@ Aggie: The lux tax is currently set at 30% but quite a few of our core cities will go in disorder next turn. Plus a number of cities is undefended, so I'm going to draft some people here and there.

@swiftsure: We have a prebuild- palace due in 3! Unfortunately, that means electronics must come in before then. It might have been better not to complete Battlefiel medicine; that way, we could have switched to that and started the palace again, leaving the prebuild in place.

Originally posted by swiftsure
i dont know! one night away from comp and you lot start a blood bath.

Don't blame me, blame the Greeks :mischief:

Originally posted by jack merchant
@swiftsure: We have a prebuild- palace due in 3! Unfortunately, that means electronics must come in before then. It might have been better not to complete Battlefiel medicine; that way, we could have switched to that and started the palace again, leaving the prebuild in place.
:aargh: I should have reported that. I thought of it, but there was soooo much going on in that game :( Can't you slow down the production of that palace.

Futhermore: can we buy/get more luxuries? What are the governement types for the AI civs? Do we have gold and gpt to have the lux slider go up?

Jack Merchant, you surely took your decisions already, but as long as you keep on fighting, you may make peace with Greece as far as I'm concerned. Just keep the momentum! But be sure to take out the Chinese within 20 turns, maybe with help from Spain, Russia, Greece, America. I used that tactic and no-one backstabbed us ;)

And next victim: roll a dice :lol:

Executive summary: Did we keep the momentum going? Oh yes !
And we have Hoover - our prebuild was perfectly timed :D

Preturn: Draft in Tenoch and Teotihuacan and send the conscipts to the two Aztec cities to the north, freeing up 2 Sipahi. Wake up 3 arty somewhere and kill the Greek infantry near Ise. Wake up 2 Sipahi in Wonsan and capture Ulsan from 2 badly wounded infantry.
Draft in any city that can take it without going unhappy or is at size 12 with a full foodbox. Our drafts fill the empty cities. Rush a bunch of infantry/rifles in Korea (they're cut off from rubber). With move-5 transports around, I donn't want empty coastal cities - we'd never see them coming ! Discover three surplus infantry in Bingol and send them to other empty cities. All cities are now defended -we don't want anyone else to 'get ideas' before we get ideas !
Wake up some workers in Shimonoseki and send them to build a road over the mountains to Eretria with the intent of taking it next turn.. However, I misclick and send them to the wrong square. Rush 3 workers and 2 settlers in formerly Aztec cities. I'm going to mine over some irrigation near our biggest cities. We don't want size-21 cities as they're far too difficult to keep happy.
Sell the Russians gems for wm+450 gp. Hire entertainers in some of the bigger cities to prevent disorder. Rush a library in Rhodes to push back the Greek border.
Diplo check further reveals China and Spain are still in democracy, Greece is in monarchy and Russia and America are in communism.

IT American gems deal expires - they have nothing to offer for it anymore - we lose 29 gpt. Good news as Greece and China sign an MA against the Russians. We lose our furs and incense.
2 Greek cavs die to defending Sipahi attacking Delphi.

1580 AD (1) Russians start Hoover Dam. I buy Electronics and furs from them for dyes, coal, silks and 3200gp and then sell it to the Spanish for spices, 42 gpt and wm (all they had to offer). The price is somewhat low but we need those spices. Konya is switched to Hoover Dam, due next turn ! A bunch of cities are switched to infrastructure around our FP. Scratch that, cities switched to infra all over the place. We're one tech away from tanks and 2 from the modern age. I want to be able to jump to modern armour by ourselves when the time comes and we have enough Sipahi to tide us over until tanks. We capture Alesund and send some troops to Tlatelolco. The Artillery SOD moves in range to bombard Pharsalos on the Greek north coast. Automated workers do all sorts of crazy things. One moves next to the Greek border to be captured next turn. Others start a railroad to nowhere through thick jungle.

IT Americans cancel our alliance with the Greeks. We can honorably make peace now but I think we can sustain the war a little longer.

1585 AD (2) We capture Tlatelolco and Pharsalos at the cost of 3 Sipahi. 2 Sipahi retreat and one dies but we take Texcoco. Scuttle a Greek battleship in Pharsalos. Some infra completes, start more. We had formerly Japanese cities building Sipahi without a barracks. Not good.

IT Greece signs peace with America and with the Russians. Greece and China sign a trade embargo against us. Greece also has a ROP with China, apparently, as they insist on attacking us through Kaifeng. Also fierce counterattack against Pharsalos and Rhodes; both hold. A Chinese spear and longbow march through our territory, what are they up to ?

1590 AD (3) Capture Manpo'o without any losses. Kill some stray Greeks in our territory. Bombard the crap out of Eretria and raze it. Settler moved into position to found there next turn. Some colonial cities riot; entertainers hired there. Diplo check reveals espionage is around; the Greeks are willing to give it to us for peace. Not yet, you sniveling backstabber you :)

IT Chinese move more troops in our territory near Kaifeng.

1595 AD (4) Chinese ordered out. Bomb Herakleia (N of Eretria and take it. Bring some Sipahi over to Hyangsan with a view to capturing it next turn.

IT Americans ask for an embargo vs Chinese. I don't want to tie our hands here. Greek counterattack is weak, they lose a cav near Herakleia and a guerilla near Hyangsan.

1600 AD (5) Whoops, missed the riot in Osaka for the second turn. Mob destroys barracks.
Border expansion at Delphi allows us to train our guns on Sparta; Raze and replace the city losing 1 Sipahi. Surplus artillery then bombards Halicarnassus and we take that too. Spare Sipahi in the west take Pyongsong.
I notice the Americans are making some headway versus the Chinese. The Chinese look whipped :) Oh wait, they're still in democracy.

1605 AD (6) We now have enough stock exchanges for Wall Street, Istanbul starts it, due in 3 with an unintentional police station prebuild.
I've had enough of all those Chinese incursion into our land and honorably declare war. We take Kaifeng, Neapolis and Veii. I get a little overenthusiastic and try to take Anyang too, but 3 Sipahi retreat to two rifles (it was size 1).

IT Spain and America sign peace. No Chinese counterattack emerges.

1610 AD (7) Arty SOD moves in range of Corinth. Sipahi sent up to reinforce. Entertainers hired in Iznik, WW there is now 51%. But still the bloodthirsty Ottoman sultan decides to press on further. For want of artillery in the area, our troops in the west blockade Hyangsan to get it down to size 6.

IT Crap, the Russians get to Anyang before us. I was hoping to get its incense. The Chinese are now down to 3 cities.

1615 AD (8) Corinth falls and we get another GL ! I was hoping that this would take away the Greeks'only oil, but they have another one. The city is razed and replaced with a properly Ottoman city. Looking over our empire I discover a stack of Sipahi in Knossos that I'd forgotten about and take it to capture Argos, north of Corinth - giving us a near monopoly on ivory. The Greeks are now out of rubber too, unless they trade for it. All quiet on the Chinese front.

1620 AD (9) Wall street completes in Istanbul, it can crank an infantry every turn. The people expand the palace. Attack Hyangsan but it holds. We lose 2 Sipahi and 3 retreat.

1625 AD (10) Our troops spot fireworks going off in the sky above Athens. Being the good sports that they are, they decide to pitch in some fireworks of their own before charging in to join the party. At the end of the day, there is nothing much left of the city. What a shame. The city of Iskenderun is ordered built upon the ruins. In the North, Sipahi charging across the plains surprise and overcome the defenders of Pergamon, losing one Sipahi in the process.

Whew, that took a long time to play ! Despite all the military action, the focus of my turn was building infrastructure. I want to be able to research something in less than 15 turns. Also our gpt is much improved.

Thoughts, tips: There's an unused leader in Istanbul, we can save him up for the UN or build an Army. The tech pace is slow enough that we may not even get to the UN, the only tech that appeared was espionage, which is not required for advancement to the next age.
We are still at war with the Greeks and the Chinese. We didn't profit quite as much from the Chinese war as we might have due to lack of troops in the area, but on the bright side, they're almost dead anyway. I've been airlifting some infantry to China.
The Greeks are on the run, I've seen no counterattacks from them during the last three turns.
Once we get to the next continent, I'm afraid we'll just have to raze everything in sight to avoid domination. Watch out for Spain, they're the only ones who haven't been hurt by the war.

Managing our empire is a bit of a jumble at the moment; I used the big Aztec cities to rush settlers from - didn't want to waste time quelling resistance. Several of our core cities still need hospitals, some cathedrals. Most police stations. However, we can do away with the lux once we make peace. The next continent will have to be taken by tanks. I didn't build all that many troops, but we have enough to finish off Greece. Not sure when WW will increase again though.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1625.sav)

I tried to get a screenshot but it's too big. I may post one later.

Screenshot (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-Greece.jpg)

Edit: I must say that I am hugely enjoying playing this. Never thought we'd get to this point when I handed over my second turn with us in monarchy :p

Super turn Jack :D

My advise on the leader: use it!Build a palace in former China or former Greece. We have to have two booming centres in our empire. Now we only have one.

Again, I say this without a look at the save.

EDIT: I saw the map. I'm Amazed!! Definitely build a palace with the leader in former Greece :)

EDIT2: Jack, your monarchy move wasn't too bad if we would be at war all the time. This is a different game. You proved without a doubt how well you can perform at emperor level ;)