Alright, I'm back with a vengence. This is another warmonger themed SG, as my last one, CG4, will be dead soon, and if it doesn't, we're going to be a crappy Civ.

Civ - Ottomans. Love that Siphai!

Map - Pangea (warmongering, baby! :p), Large, rest of stats regular. Made ingame, as I seem to be having problems with the editor.

Victory Conditions - All on, but only Conquest will be accepted.

Level - Emperor. Despite the fact that we're losing on Monarch, I think that has less to do with the level than with bad decisions. I haven't won yet on Emperor, but I've gotten awfully close (in my last game, I had conquered two nations already in early Middle Ages, far ahead).

Version - PTW, 1.14f, although that should be obvious. ;)

Variant Rules - Because the last game was a pretty large failure, not too many variants here. All the usual exploits disallowed. (I think there is a list on the RBCiv site.) The ONLY variant rule that will be enforced is that when we attack another civ, we cannot make peace until they are destroyed. So if we attack a civ, we cannot make peace, only destroy them. If another civ attacks us, we can make peace at any time.

Roster - Me
Cromagnon
Jack Merchant
Swiftsure
(Open)

All these spots are open, although I invite the crew (cromagnon, Sultan, swiftsure and aggie) from CG4 back to whoop some AIs! However, I'm not sure all will accept, as they seemed to say that they had trouble with Monarch.

I'll post the save and starting pic later today. :)

I've never won on Emperor, and given the fact that I only win 66% on Monarch (OK, CG 4 knocks that down a bit), I'm not sure if I should try this.
we cannot make peace until they are destroyed.
Don't you mean "until we or they are destroyed?" ;)
No, seriously, this is a major constraint, even tougher than the last one. It's effectively an "always war" situation.

Originally posted by cromagnon
IIt's effectively an "always war" situation.

Not if we play our diplomacy cards right. ;) Although I'm not sure thats possible with our record. ;) How about this: The 'long haul' rule only applies to wars we start?

Hey: Emperor isn't that much harder. 66% on Monarch is a good record...are you sure? I don't want to push you...

One final note: The truth is, I've found variants much more fun, win or lose (that is, lose closely, not like CG4). I've also found that they get much higher participation than a regular conquest.

OK, I'm a sucker. You got me.
Just keep in mind that I leave on 3/11, and I won't have CivIII privileges (unless I break down and buy the Mac versions of both). :hmm:

Originally posted by cromagnon
OK, I'm a sucker. You got me.
Just keep in mind that I leave on 3/11, and I won't have CivIII privilages (unless I break down and buy the Mac versions of both). :hmm:

You can't play Civ3 forever, or just for a while?

Good to have you on. Now that I have atleast one person, I'll make the game. :)

You know what, Cromagnon, I think I will change the rule.

New Rule: The ONLY variant rule that will be enforced is that when we attack another civ, we cannot make peace until they are destroyed. So if we attack a civ, we cannot make peace, only destroy them. If another civ attacks us, we can make peace at any time.

I'd like to volunteer for this if you have an open spot. I can win fairly reliably on monarch, and have just started to move up to emperor. Plus the Ottoman's industrious nature should make things easier.
I have not played in an SG before, but have been an avid lurker in this forum.

And so with heavy heart do i pick up my sword again. where will it end these wars within wars....... oh bugger it lets kick some butt

Sure, jackmerchant. There is lots of room - two spots left after you.

I'm off to make the map now. :) I'l play the first 40 too.

CGannon, see if you can do the alternating US/Europe thing again. I think it worked pretty well to speed the game along.

New rule accepted. Of course, this means we only declare war when we're damn sure we're going to wipe someone out... :D

Plus, if the last game is any indication, I'm not sure we'll even get to declare war... ;)

I lose my CivIII privilages for about a month, when I'm out of town. But I'll lurk and cheer from the sidelines, maybe some back-seat playing...

Good to have Swiftsure and JackMerchant on board. Welcome :wavey:

Edit: just a friendly reminder: Note to teammates: Do NOT leave units on auto-move, and do NOT automate workers!

Looking forward to this ! I'm in the CET timezone for planning purposes (meaning I must go zzzz soon :) ). E-mail in profile.
Our enemies will be trampled under the hooves of our Sipahi !

Alright, here are the first 40. I'm not totally satisfied, as we had some barb and growth trouble, but the terrain is enough to compensate. :D

(1) Here we go, the start a new empire. We are up to our knees in forest and jungle. Istanbul founded on starting spot, on the river. (Note: it doesn't look like its on the river, but a quick Terrain check reveals that it is.) Ends up that we are a few tiles of a coastline.

(2) First tech is Pottery, as is my style. Science upped to 100%, 27 turns. Worker starts mining. Man, I LOVE industrious! :D

(3-5) Zip.

(6) Warrior built. Goes to explore.

(7) Goody hut popped. Barbs! Argh.

(8) The Barbs kill our warrior. Damn it. Our worker runs. Our city will be ransacked. The RNG strikes again...;)

(9) The Barb takes gold, but there is still two more on the way.

(10) The first barb kills our work on the Warrior, and the second barb does the same, which is essientially nothing. I guess the RNG is happy again. ;)

(11) Nothing.

(12) Second warrior is built. Spear on the way, and then settler.

(13-15) Istanbul riots. My bad.

(16) Exploration reveals favorable terrain, lots of grassland.

(17) Goody hut reveals nothing. Hey, its better than Barbs, right?

(18) We meet Japan! I trade Masonry for Warrior Code and 10g, witholding Broze Working from him.

(19-20) Nothing. Istanbul is undefended (Spear in 3) but the Japanese warrior approaches. I trust him...

(21) He backs off. Thank the Lord. :)

(22) Nothing.

(23) Spear is built. Istanbul will grow to size 3 in 10 turns (sorry it had to be stagnant for a few turns, either that or riots) and Settler will be done in 8. So I build a second Spear, due in 5, and then a settler. Slow expansion...grr.

(24-27) Nothing. Damn, we have some nice terrain to the south. I'll post a dotmap for it, its just wonderful. Much better than CG4.

(28-30) Another Spear built in Istanbul, settler in 8. This is slow expansion (damn barbs) but we have such great terrain to the South I can't complain.

(31) Nothing.

(32) Pottery discovered at max sci. (Maybe I should have done min...whatever.) Iron Working pushed back to min sci, 40 turns, 4gpt. Dyes hooked up. Crap, I should have done this earlier, would have prevented the riots. Argh.

(33-35) Greece, of all people, met in the North, as a Hoplite comes into our view. We give him Masonry for Cermional and 13g. Japan has the Wheel, Greece has Alphabet. Not bad, not bad.

(36) Man, this feels wrong not going to have a city by the end of my term. We're going max growth in the next bunch people, as we want to fill out our land before Japan does.

(37-40) And that's it for me. Proposed build order: after the settler, a warrior snuck in (we have two Spears) so we can explore the North. I propose to you guys a strategy question: should we build two spears in our cities before a settler, to prevent the lack of defenders? I usually do this, but it can hinder growth. It really depends on the situation, as you can sometimes fit in 2 spears and a settler without trouble, but sometimes that second spear pushes the settler too far back, which hurts growth. Oh, and no dotmap, I have stuff to do. :p

Here is a pic of the start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5start.jpg


And the save:


CG5 Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-2630BC.sav)

Um, where's the roster? :confused:

Japanese warrior approaches. I trust him...:eek: I thought it was almost time for CG6!

OK, my bad. I forgot to sacrifice a virgin to the RNG god again. Hate when that happens.

Nothing I could do anyway. I don't think I could've rushed the Spear, because I think I was at size one.

You're up, cromagnon! Sorry, the roster is in the bottom of the first post:

Cromagnon -> Up Now
Jack Merchant -> On Deck
Swiftsure
(Open)
Me

Good Luck, cromagnon! :D

Got it

You playing tonight, cromagnon?

CroSultan looks upon his lone city. It will soon grow to an empire, he thinks. Everything seems to be in order, with a settler due in 2 cycles.
[1] 2590BC: Worker builds road, warrior explores SW

[2] 2550BC: Istanbul builds settler -> Spear for now, may change it. Settler/spear move south.

[3] 2510BC: nothing

[4] 2470BC: Edrine founded, build warrior. Worker starts mining.

[5] 2430BC: nothing

[6] 2390BC: more mining

[7] 2350BC: nothing

[8] 2310BC: Erdrine warrior -> spear. Warrior explores west.

[9] 2270BC: Istanbul spear -> warrior (doesn't grow fast enough for settler; we need granary here). Spear explores a bit east. Alexander and Tokugawa want too much for Wheel. Alex has monopoly on mysticism & alphabet. Worker starts roading south.

[10] 2230BC: nothing

[11] 2190BC: nothing

[12] 2150BC: Istanbul warrior -> settler. Warrior explores north. Woohoo! Cattle and wheat to the east!

[13] 2110BC: They still want all our gold plus 2 gpt for wheel or mysticism, and Alex won't let alphabet go. Istanbul to grow and produce settler in 7. I wonder if it would riot before it got built if SultanGannon hadn't hooked up dyes...:hmm:
IBT: An Aztec Jaguar warrior shows up to the west.

[14] 2070BC: Greece and Aztecs have Alphabet, mysticism, and wheel. Japan lacks Alphabet. I trade Greece Contact with Japan and 52 gold for Contact with Korea and Alphabet. Korea only hase 17 gold and lacks Masonry. Bummer. Greece has monopoly on Writing (I've never seen the AI beeline for Literature!). I give Japan Alphabet for wheel straight up. They all want gpt for Mysticism, so I hold off.

[15] 2030BC: Edrine builds spear -> wealth for 1 turn, then settler in 8 (to allow growth). Spear goes to protect worker, as Aztecs are nearby.

[16] 1990BC: nothing
IBT: Korean spear spotted to the north.

[17] 1950BC: Spear approaches goody hut to the east.

[18] 1910BC: Sure enough, Bactran warrior emerge from the hut. Korea has writing. I get this for Wheel, Japanese Contact, and 53 gold. I sell writing to Japan for Mysticism and 65 gold. This brings everyone to parity, and we have 122 in the bank.
IBT: Our spear is attacked by 2 warriors, and promotes, taking a scratch. Japan settles to the south, by the wheat (but we can still get the cattle).

[19] 1870BC: Our warrior to the north attacks a barb camp but loses. :( Our spear starts heading back to pick up the settler which is to emerge from Istanbul.
IBT: Lonely barbarian warrior attacks our spear, making him elite. :saiyan:

[20] 1830BC: Istanbul settler -> granary. Settler moves east. I finally spot some horses waaay to the NW.

We have 153+8gpt, tech parity, and our neighbors are dirt poor. IW due in 16.

CroSultan looks at his worthy successor, Sultan Jack, and suggests the following:
The settler should probably settle the nearby wheat/cattle spot.
Settler in Edrine due in 4, should head south to claim the cattle and wheat.

He hands the sceptre of power over: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1830.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS1.jpg
Priority should be given to Red and Blue, then Hot Pink.
We'll se what we can get after that.
I'm not particularly attached to the others,
although orange will give us gems.

Istanbul has problems growing, not with shields,
which is why I set it to granary.

And yes, as we may box Japan in, we'd better beef upon defense.

Nice work cromagnon. From the minimap, it looks like, with a little work, we can corner Japan in. You know what that means...;) :mischief:

Jack -> Up Now
Swiftsure -> On Deck
(Open)
Me
Cromagnon

sign up tiem baby! i am sure i will do fine. Unliek the last gmae lets NOT quiit it.

btw soudns kind fo noobish. Whats RNG how do i check my version hwo do i uopload a .sav. how di attach a pic?

Got it and playing.
Are we still on 20 turns or should I go for 10 ?

Well, I went ahead and played 20 anyway. It's early enough in the game, I hope.
My notes:

preturn - everything looks good and I press enter

1790 settler moves south, worker sent back to Istanbul to clear and irrigate the game forest. The exploring spear sent back to meet up with the settler.

interturn the Japanese demand and get 27 gold -we're in no shape to wage war yet

1750 nothing much

1725 the Aztecs have iron working. Nobody else does, as yet. Settler completes in Edrine, barracks ordered up ( I considered a temple, but want vet troops before we become everybody's whipping boys)

1700 Buy a Greek worker for 120 gp.

1675 Found Bursa one square SE of the dot. Istanbul's border will expand to give it the wheat in 8 turns anyway. Warrior ordered up for exploration.

1650 Found Iznik on the slopes of the gold mountain. This is a large map so I don't think our cities should be packed too tightly. Buy a korean worker for 40 gp and 4gpt (I've been checking every turn). Workers improving Istanbul

1625 Nothing much
1600 Nothing much Greece and Japan have IW too. We can't trade for it though.
1575 Worker finishes clearing game forest. Once irrigated, it will yield 4 food.
1550 Nothing much - Greeks want 20 gold, and lacking any intelligence on where they are, I cave
1525 Nothing much
1550-1475 Istanbul MM'd to get the granary the turn before the city grows, I accidentally cross into Aztec territory (couldn't see the border through the jungle). They're still polite.

1450 Iznik produces a worker. Production set to spear for now. Barb shows up north of Istanbul. Japs and Aztecs now have horseback riding.

1425 Bursa produces worker. Normally I'd use it to irrigate the cattle but I think I'll mine it instead as otherwise it will never have any shields. Production set to spear but a temple might be a better idea.

1400 Istanbul produces granary. Spear ordered up to accompany forthcoming settlers. We get IW. There's one iron in reach west of Iznik and one in the northernn hills. Research set to literature at min science. Everyone now has mapmaking. I buy the Korean wm for wm+67gp+1gpt and then resell it to the others for 78gp total.

1375 Edrine produces barracks, set to spear. Istanbul changed to settler. Both due in 5. We cannot yet trade for mapmaking.

1350 The Greeks establish an embassy with us. Frag a barb camp. Another iron discovered to the east, though the greeks may get there before us. All the others already have iron in their cultural borders.

Thoughts: Istanbul will riot when it grows to size 4; I suggest using the luxury tax to keep it happy instead of entertainers. Iznik could maybe use a temple as the Japs already founded a town in range to pressure it culturally. They have no horses as far as I can see so we should probably acquire iron and take it to them.
Also, this doesn't seem to be a true pangaea. But with mapmaking around, I suppose the other contacts should come in soon.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-1350.SAV)

Great work, JM. Not letting your pride get in the way is something I have to learn the hard way.
:blush: I forgot about the game by Istanbul.

We need horses in the near future, for knights and then Sipahi. Too bad Japan doesn't have it.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Great work, JM. Not letting your pride get in the way is something I have to learn the hard way.


Don't worry - I learned it the hard way, too :D

Sorry guys, I'm not going to join this. I think emperor is hard enough without any variant rules. And a rule to destroy a civ after declaring war sounds too difficult for me. Cetainly after my part in our last game...

You did just fine in CG4. As I said, I ran that scenario a couple of times; we were the underdogs (due to low production), in the center of the world, and always under the dogpile.

You're a better player than I am, and I'm sure you'd do fine. Just join and have fun, win or lose! If you have other commitments, then no problem, hope to see you in the next one. :goodjob:

So am i in?

Widdowmaker, please see my reply to you in CG4 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=803215#post803215). Ultimately, it's up to CGannon.

Swifsure, it's your game.

EDIT: Jack Merchant, we're playing 20 turns per player, although we may trim that to 10 if it bogs down in the later years (you know, where it takes 1 hour to play 2-3 turns). The starting player goes for 40 turns, as it can be boring otherwise.

Also, it's a strict 24 hours to claim "got it," and 48 hours to play.

Wow, so much happens when I am at school. ;) First of all, let me get this out of the way:

Swiftsure -> Up Now
(Open...you sure Aggie?)
Me
Cromagnon
Jack

Second of all: No offense, widdowmaker, but I think you should get some experience under your belt. We all had trouble on a Monarch game, for goodness sakes, and this is an Emperor with variant rules. This is going to be trouble enough for me, and I've done well on Emperor. Seeing as you have only played 3 games, I think you should get a few more games on higher levels under your belt before you do an Emperor SG. Although feel free to start one yourself. :)

Now, about the game: Don't worry about Horses just yet. We (seem, hard to tell from reports) have Iron within our grasp. I'm assuming all of you agree we should go at Japan pretty quickly, so (hopefully) by the time Knights roll around we'll have acquired horses.

I think top priority now should be getting Iron and just turning that great terrain into a nice production base. Then, after that, expansion from shield-weak cities and swords churning out from shield-high cities.

Go swiftusre! :goodjob:

Taking into account some of the lessons learned from CG4, I'm rethinking my dotmap. Sulla, Sirp, and Arathorn noted a lot of "wasted land at the core," and suggested a slightly denser build. Furthermore, we ought to grab some of the jungle to the N and NW as well, especially since we have industrious workers on our side.

It now sounds like Istanbul is a decent settler factory, and the other cities should concentrate on defense and infrastructure.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Furthermore, we ought to grab some of the jungle to the N and NW as well, especially since we have industrious workers on our side.

Not before we take that great land to the South though, right? ;)

Hi guys,

The GREAT advise from the experienced players convinced me to ask if I could join this game!

When I'm in, I want to start by saying that we should follow Sirp's and Sulla's advice to build our cities tighter together. Corruption is even worse than losing a few tiles. And you also build cities faster when there's closer together. Note that my first day from the office will be Friday. I can play then...

Good to see you back, Aggie. The NEW lineup:

Swiftsure -> Up Now
Aggie
Me
Cromagnon
Jack

YES!! [dance]

Soory bout sayin sultna screwed up. I just liek being blunt. I hate it when ppl sugar coat the truth to malke is sound better than it is. All i was tryin to say is IF he let the war die then chanceds are you wouldve won.

Also i did cheiftan jsut to learn the controls. I am ahead by about 15 techs and have well over 75 working running self susfficent metros in WLTKD along wiht HUGE miltary and i am owning half the world. I think if cheiftan is that easy and form what i have been reading in games on deity i belive i coudl handle empporor.(spl)

I apologize for the remark on sultans turn and how i belive he "Screwd up". It shall nto happen again.

p.s. I woudl like to occupy the open slot.

Originally posted by widdowmaker
I just liek being blunt. I hate it when ppl sugar coat the truth to malke is sound better than it is.

I like to be blunt as well. Your way of posting and your admitting that you play chieftain with no game finished ever, is just not enough comfort for us to have you join. I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe the others agree. We like to play a serious game with people that are at least experienced enough to play monarch level and win a couple of games there.

Why not follow cgcannon64's great advice and open your own SG on yuor own conditions? Our join a chieftain/warlord training SG. Those are great as well...

Originally posted by cgannon64

Now, about the game: Don't worry about Horses just yet. We (seem, hard to tell from reports) have Iron within our grasp. I'm assuming all of you agree we should go at Japan pretty quickly, so (hopefully) by the time Knights roll around we'll have acquired horses.

Go swiftusre! :goodjob: [/B]

Sorry about that; I should have been clearer in the report. The iron is, as you can see, in settler reach, not close to being connected. If we manage to grab it, we can do the mass-produce warriors-upgrade to swordsmen trick, but it'll take another 30 turns before we're there.

Our empire:

Hmm, we'll have to grab that Iron quick, Jack, before the Japanese do. Plus it will be tough to connect, although the warrior->sword does sound promising.

So, what do you guys think? Do we put science at minimum to build up a load of cash for a warrior->sword, or do we do it the old fashioned way?

Even with industrious workers, the connecting road will take a while to build, and will be a tenuous one, easily cut by the Japanese. Plus, we'll have to put our city just NW of the iron, on the hill. Not the best spot, but with some expansion, should grow.

I wonder why Nagoya was placed there? It doesn't seem like a particularly good spot, unless some oil springs up in the future...:hmm:

I say keep cranking out settlers in Istanbul (thanks for irrigating), use Edrine for spears, and get a temple in Iznik so it can expand onto the wheat and cattle. Bursa may be able to eke out a settler as well.

Will get it tonight, on emporer money is definately the way to go. you cant keep up with the ai on tech research so u have to by the techs off them.

You guys seem to be doing a little better this time around, so far at least.

swiftsure: You definitely can keep up with the AIs in research on emperor level, and since the Ottomans are Scientific, that's precisely what you should try to do! Even on Deity you can do it these days, well, sort of :)

If you go for libraries, you can research the technologies the AI delays, then trade them with them, and hopefully make some good cash out of it too.

Also uhmm...is that a worker I see mining the cattle near Bursa? That's a bonus food tile, with a city on fresh water! You want the city to grow, and grow fast! Build a granary in that city and it'll be a super-city in no time, able to produce settlers, workers, or just grow damn big and start churning out units.

Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time :)

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time :)

-Sirp.

Apology accepted. And please keep doing it :) Thanks :goodjob:

Yes i know that. But i did the cheiftian games for 2 resons.
1) To learn the controls.
2)To have a sim game ot buidl in when i dont got nothing better to do. And to see a nuke go off for the first time.

Also i never finished one because they were so hoplessley easy. I bumped it up to warlord yeterday and thats easy. Next is regent then monarch. I am pretty sure i can handle this. All i ask is a chance. If you dotn want me on then drop me but you wont know if i am good enough to have unless i get at least one turn for you to see. That and the fact there is almsot no one who does anythign under emporor for me to try to join.

@ Sirp:

It's great to have your input here, and I hope you'll continue to provide us with advice. I sent the worker at Bursa to mine the cattle as it's a food-rich but shield-poor city and was concerned it wouldn't start producing anything anytime soon. Also, I don't really like the whip, which would probably be the best way to get its granary going. My teammates are free to veto, of course :)
Having followed all those RBD and RBE games, my very first instinct is normally to irrigate cattle, too.

Widdowmaker,

I beg of you, I implore you, to please play a game on emperor before you ask to play one in a succession game. I'm sure you are a good player, or will become one, but no one has any way of knowing that at the moment. There simply is not enough evidence to make any judgement on your playing skills.

Once you have played a few games on your own, then ask to join a SG, or start one yourself, at the difficulty level of your choosing. While you may feel confident in your skills, it should be pretty obvious that others on the forum are not convinced of them.

I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

That's exactly what I did yesterday.... :(

Cgannon, I really think you need to work on your opening turns a bit more. After 40 turns, your capital was size 3 and had produced very little -- 3 units?

Compare to RBP5, where, in a very similar starting situation, after 40 turns, we had a second city, 2 warriors exploring, and our capital was size 7, ready to produce a second settler the next turn.

The difference in power between these two openings is immense. RBP5 was more than twice as powerful after 40 turns than CG5. That kind of deficit takes a lot of work to recover from.

<soapbox>
I think far too many people blow through the early turns, because there's little to do, so they don't pay proper attention. This gets them into bigger holes than they should be in, so their games are inordinately difficult.

Yes, I stop micromanaging at some point. I think almost everyone does (unless it's an OCC or a 5CC or something). At a certain point (which varies for everyone), the time invested to do that doesn't become worth it -- at least not for every city. MMing a wonder-building city or your best city or two often continues....

But, at the bery beginning, when you only have one city? It *is* an OCC at that point, and you should watch it like a hawk.... It's not that hard to keep track of one city and I simply do not understand how/why people have such trouble with it.

</soapbox>

The soapbox was a general rant, not aimed directly at you, cgannon, but in your general direction, along with a lot of other people. Improving your opening 40 turns could literally move you up an entire difficulty level. It's that important.

Arathorn

PS I like your stance as regards widowmaker.....

Arathorn: I was about to interject that "well, we had Barbarian trouble at the beginning," but I now noticed that you did in RBP5 as well. So I stand corrected.

I agree with you that micromanaging your one or two cities is very important, and I have begun to make a concious effort to do so. Before ending any turn, I do a quick check in every city to make sure it's getting the most food, shields, and commerce it can, but more importantly, to watch for civil disorder.

My problem is that I believe that you guys make micromanaging decisions on a level much higher than mine - making sure the granary is built at the right time in the food cycle, for example. Or how to make the settler factor oscillate between size 6 and 4. I have a foggy notion of how to do this correctly, but it's not nearly concrete enough for me.

Thanks for your input, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

The early game is when I get the most fanatical on mm. Late game I get to the point that in my totally corrupt cities I will tell the governor to emphasis food / happy people.

I got a top ten in the qsc for GOTM#16. Why did I get that high? I researched pottery and built a granary quickly. Several exploring warriors for quick contact, and the big item was clearing the game for city growth. When I read a lot of the post I was in the minority who cleared the game square to get faster food. I had Moscow to the point of settler in 5, and worker in 2 (with city growing in 2). I had constantly changed the luxury tax, but it clearly paid on base on where I scored.

Thanks for the comments on the opening guys. The problem is that that part of the game is just hard to learn. Its very hard to see what people do from SGs, and also hard to see what they do from saves.

I think my opening has two main problems - happiness. Being my first game on Emperor level, I've forgetten about how important it is to use the slider early. My second mistake was not hooking up the dyes fast enough.

Do you guys know where I could work on my opening? Do they give detailed reports in the QSC, or just the save, because I think a report from some of the top winners would really help me...

Anyway, you're up swiftsure. :)

BTW, Its really amazing how fast a high-profile loss will point out the faults in your game. At first my pride was kind of hurt, especially when all the tips started coming in, but know its really helpful...:D

EDIT: Would any of you guys be interested in running an Emperor training game? I know a training game that high up sounds a little absurd, but I think that there are a bunch of SGers here who CAN win on that level, but don't win enough because of faults in their game like you guys pointed out.

I think what would really help would be a "Batter's Cage" type game where anyone who wants plays a set of turns, and then the good player reviews our turns. It would be time consuming, but I think it would really help me game. :)

Quick look pre turn and everything seems in order, only thing i change are the spears to warriors in iznik and bursa. i assume that they are there as second mp and warriors will do for that as well as being upgradable.

1325bc- scouting and working
1300bc-lux to 10% to stop istanbul rioting,iznik builds warrior which is sent to istanbul as second mp and starts another. bursa builds warrior and starts worker
1275bc- trade 113gp and w/m to korea for horseback riding and t/m
1250bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another,lux back to 0%. edrine builds spear and starts another.
1225bc- iznik builds warrior. at this point i decide to try for some quick territory expansion so it starts a settler
1200bc-scouting and working
1175bc-bursa builds warrior and starts settler. kyoto completes the oracle.
1150bc-edrine completes spear and starts granary,uskadur founded and starts warrior.
1125bc-scouting and working
1100bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another. trade 80gp and 7gpt to greece for maths and then trade maths to korea for philosophy,world map and 2gp
1075bc-scouting and working
1050bc-iznik builds settler and starts spear
1025bc-usukadur builds warrior and starts worker
1000bc-scouting and working
975bc- barb camp dispersed
950bc-bursa builds settler starts spear,istanbul builds settler starts spear
925bc-
900bc-edrine builds granary starts settler,usukadur builds worker starts temple,izmit built starts spear,adyin built starts spear.
875bc- antayla built starts spear
850bc- iznik builds spear starts temple,bursa builds warrior starts settler. trondheim builds collosus.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-850BC.SAV

Took a few chances by sending out some escorted settlers but we seem ok at the moment.

we have 8 cities compared to japan 9,korea 8, greece 7 and aztecs 5.

we are behind in tech to everyone by map making and code of laws but we can buy either of them but they are expensive.

we have a settler ready to settle where i would normally settle but it might be worthwhile heading north to the horsies.

VERY nice work there swiftsure. You really pumped out those settlers, lets just hope that our little psedo-farmer's gambit works well. I think once we get a few more settlers out, it should be lots of warrior production and preparing funds for the upgrade.

Just wondering what you guys think...do you think 10-15 swords would be enough to take over Japan? Or would that be too little?

Aggie -> Up Now
Me -> On Deck
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure

I'd be surprised if 15 swords can take out Japan's 9+ cities. I'm pretty sure they haven't been neglecting their military (the AI rarely does). However, the AI knows when we are, and will probably start demanding tribute, especially if we have a lot of gold lying around. I know it's not proven or even generally accepted, and maybe some of the more experienced players can give some input, but I think they tend to knock you around more if you have money. Whether or not they act on your refusal depends on how strong your military is.

4 new cities, woohoo :goodjob: ! I'd send the current settler to claim the horse up north and fill in the space between later. By the time we're ready to take it to the Aztecs and the Greeks, there will be too many knights or cav around to not have our own supply of horses. But it's all up to Aggie, of course :)
We probably need at least 15 swords for Japan, but we must definitely strike before pikes or, God forbid, Samurai (who don't require horses).

Edit: I was going to say we don't need to take all of Japan in one go, but under the variant rules, we of course do :p The alternative is simply to lie low, build up our empire and wait for sipahi.

One of the biggest this that will cause the AI to make demands - EMPTY CITIES. The latest LK world map game proved it again. A bunch of our cities were empty. Alliances and trade embargoes against us were coming like crazy. Since all our cities got defenders again - almost nothing has happened to us.

In GOTM#16 my problems with AI declaring war, and other issues all started late game. What happened then? I stripped defenders from my cities to keep the war effort going.

It won't stop the demands, but it will slow them down.

Fine. i will go join a low dif SG. OH! WAIT! There are none. Guess i am royaly screwed as i cant JOIN a low level SG to prove my skills an dhte high level ones wont take me cause i havent proven yet. Isint the point of a game ot be fun win or lose?ALL i aksed for was a CHANCE... Oh well there will be other games other than civ 3. (the AI really sucks in several areas. liek why do they kepe the military OUTSIDE their cities?)

cgannon64: Happiness at the start of a game is really no big deal at all. It's simple. As soon as people get unhappy and are about to go into civil disorder (but not after they've already done it!), just increase the luxury slider. That's all there is to it. What could be simpler?

Not hooking up luxuries early is *not* a mistake. The AI actually has it right this time. You know how it values luxuries by how many cities you have? Well that's actually a pretty good idea. When you have one city, luxuries aren't worth very much! Only 1 gold per turn or so. Sure, you want to hook them up at some point, but it's not a high priority task. Hooking them up is about as valuable as having a road on a tile that a citizen is working on.

jack merchant: if a city is food rich and shield poor it will umm...grow very big fast, and then it will be food rich and shield rich. Getting it to produce 1 more spt right now is a fairly short-term approach, and is probably costing you about 5 spt in 30 turns. Growth is far far more important than shields early on. Don't trade away your inheritance for a couple of shields.

-Sirp.

Widdowmaker, just because there isn't a lower level SG now, doesn't mean there won't be one soon. All the more true if you start one on your own. I'm very sure people will join. Just look at how quickly Sirp's Monarch level Trainer filled up!

BTW, many SG's ask you to prove your ability to play Emperor or Diety. Most (including us) do not. You don't need a SG to prove how well you play. And yes, the point is to have fun - I certainly did in CG4, even though the outcome wasn't great. However, some people would like to have players of approximately equal ability on their team.

Again, you don't have to prove anything to anyone, unless they specifically ask for it. You were honest about your experience, in your first post. You could have lied and said "I've beat Diety." but we all appreciate your honesty. I'm sure higher level players would be happy to have you in their future games if you come back and tell us "I've beaten Monarch, and I feel ready to try Emperor."

Again, if you don't like what you see on the menu, make your own dish!

Originally posted by Sirp
cgannon64: Happiness at the start of a game is really no big deal at all. It's simple. As soon as people get unhappy and are about to go into civil disorder (but not after they've already done it!), just increase the luxury slider. That's all there is to it. What could be simpler?


:goodjob: Yep. I just did a quick 20 minute QSC-type game, where I just did until about 0 AD. I had no luxeries, a few cities. All it took was stopping at the end of every turn and seeing how the lux slider will keep the peace. Sure, turns are 15 seconds longer, but its priceless, really. :)

Originally posted by widdowmaker
Fine. i will go join a low dif SG. OH! WAIT! There are none. Guess i am royaly screwed as i cant JOIN a low level SG to prove my skills an dhte high level ones wont take me cause i havent proven yet. Isint the point of a game ot be fun win or lose?ALL i aksed for was a CHANCE... Oh well there will be other games other than civ 3. (the AI really sucks in several areas. liek why do they kepe the military OUTSIDE their cities?)

Calm down man, don't quit Civ3 because of this. I'd be VERY willing to let you into a Monarch/Emperor SG if you just had some practice in the area. I'm sure other people will too. Think of it from our prospective: We just came off a tough loss. Obviously we don't want to lose this one, as it would really kill moral. We've all beaten Monarch and do OK on Emperor. Then you come in, having beaten Chieftain. Not to demean your skills, but if you came in saying you've beaten Monarch, we'd be alot more willing to let you in. I'm sure you are a fine Civ player, its just that, in a game like this, when we really want to win, we are a little less lenient when it comes to beaten levels.

Oh, and you don't need SGs to practice: try a Regent game against the AI. If you beat that, then try a Monarch. If you beat that then you should be ready for SGs. :)

Widdowmaker,

Another option you might want to consider (because it seems like you also want to have some sense of interaction with other players...) is playing a few of the Realms Beyond games (the completed ones will probably help you out the most) . After playing the game, you can compare your results and what you did with what other players did (by reading other people's reports on that particular game). This will give you experience playing at higher levels and instruction about how you could do better in future games.

The Realms Beyond site is at: http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/

Feel free to check it out (as well as their Tactics list...).

JMB

Or the GOTM. In fact, there is a Regent level game out on March 1 that should be right up your alley. PTW too.

Before I started, I switched Aydin to temple. Close to the border of Japan, we have to prevent flips.

IT: Washington builds the Pyramids

Turn 1 - 825 BC Istanbul finishes spear and starts settler. Konya founded.

Turn 2 - 800 BC Edrine builds settler and starts another.

IT: What are all those Japanese warriors doing crossing our terrain?

Turn 3 - 775BC Zzzzzz

Turn 4 - 750BC Zzzzzz

IT: Korea want 50 gold and w/m for w/m. I accept.

Turn 5 - 730BC Zzzzzz

Turn 6 - 710BC Istanbul finishes settler, starts spear. Antalya builds spear, starts temple.

Turn 7 - 690BC Zzzzzz

Turn 8 - 670BC Izmit builds warrior, starts worker. Bursa finishes settler, starts spear. Edrine finishes settler, starts spear.

Turn 9 - 650BC Adana founded, starts warrior

IT: Guess there's where they were going: Japan declares war to Greece.

Turn 10 - 630BC Instanbul finished spear, start settler. Sinop founded, starts worker.

IT: Korea declares war to the Greeks.

Turn 11 - 610BC We dispersed a barb camp: 25 gold.

IT: Greece and Aztecs get MA against Korea. WW1 and we're not involved yet!

Turn 12 - 590 BC Embassy with Aztecs (41 gold), Korea (42 gold) and apan (52 gold). Good for AI attitude against us and MA's...

IT: The Japs destroy Mycenae, north of Antalya :eek: Gives us more room to expand. Keep an eye on this location. It might have coal or rubber in future times. The AI tends to settle near these spots although the tech is not available to know for humans...

Turn 13 - 570BC We suddenly know the Celts, Spanish, Russians, Romans, Chinese, American, Scandinavian!! We are 10th (of 12) on the histograph. America, Japan, China, Scandinavia clearly lead. Japan, our neighbour, leads in culture: culture flip danger! I make a deal with Rome: Map Making, Code of Laws and Polytheism for 5 gpt, w/m and 240 gold. We get Literature, 33 gold and T/m for w/m from Scandinavia. I also make little w/m - t/m deals with China and Russia.

Turn 14 - 550BC Bursa and Edrine build spear, start TGL (please feel free to switch to settler/temple) and temple.

IT: Osaka, Japan, build the Great Lighthouse. Great to have on Pangea :crazyeye:

Turn 15 - 530BC Iznik finishes temple and starts settler.

Turn 16 - 510BC Istanbul finishes settler, starts spear. Uskadar finishes temple, starts settler. Izmit finishes worker, starts temple. Barb camp dispersed. Kafa founded near iron :) , starts temple.

IT: Aztecs and Greece get MA against Japan. Japanese soldiers turn to Azetc country. I let them go...they have no interest in Ottomania.

Turn 17 - 490BC Zzzzzzz. Hey, I quiet turn!

IT: The Celts and Japan sign a MA against the Aztecs. The Aztecs want our help against Japan. Too early for that. I decline and give world map: good for relations and our w/m is useless...

Turn 18 - 470BC Zzzzzzzz

Turn 19 - 450BC Adana finishes warrior, starts worker. Ankara founded near horses :) Starts with a worker.

IT: Spain and Celts have MA against Korea. The Great Wall built by...the Chinese of course ;)

Turn 20 - 430BC Switched Bursa to temple: I give us no chance on TGL..... Other are building it as well and they have a benefit (Emperor level).


The world is at war and we are Switzerland. I like it! Here are my suggestions:

- Keep the peace as much as possible.
- Keep on expanding until all jungle is ours. We are industrious, so jungle is gone in no-time.
- Build temples near the borders, especially near Japan! EDIT: please switch all temples to libraries (if it doesn't cost any shields). Thanks cromagnon for this hint.
- You might want to check if you can trade things. We know a lot of other civs, so tech may be cheaper now. It gets cheaper with every civ we know that has it...
- The Great Library was a dream, but I think not a realistic one...
- I think our military is decent. For defence, but certainly not for attack.
- Please, do give in to demands from the AI.
- You might want to have Instanbul build another settler.

430 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-430_BC.SAV)

Great work, Aggie. The wars will almost certainly help us, except for the potential for GL's completing Wonders for the AI.

I agree with all your points. We can leave it for now, unless we know for sure (from embassies) that the bad guys are close to getting it. Who knows, maybe it can become a Sistine. And we ought to establish as many embassies as possible, because it's cheaper earlier.

My only suggestion is that perhaps we ought to build libraries instead of temples if we want to prevent culture flips. More culture, and cheaper for a scientific civ. Plus, more science!

I can't look at the save until tomorrow-is Japan TOO powerful? Should we try to get on them sooner rather than later? Did we get the gems to the north, by any chance? A screenshot! My kingdom for a screenshot!! :)

CGannon is up.

Originally posted by cromagnon
My only suggestion is that perhaps we ought to build libraries instead of temples if we want to prevent culture flips. More culture, and cheaper for a scientific civ. Plus, more science!


Yes! You're right about that! Sorry, I forgot that the Ottomans are scientific...

I feel that trying to get TGL could end in a waste of shields. At least 6 other civs are researching it and will cascade to Hanging Gardens, etc.... We probably won't be able to profit from such a cascade...

If we have enough cities, we can always switch it to palace as a pre-build for an early Middle Ages wonder, possibly even Sun Tzu's.

We are not the only peaceful civ. America and China are not displayed here. But the rest is involved in WW1...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SG5ww1.JPG

Our recent growth. I didn't want to place Kafa on top of the Iron. That's why it's displaced...

The Japanese have been using our territory to get to the Greeks and now to the Aztecs... I thought it was OK, didn't want to make them mad. Not a very frightening army IMHO. I planned the settler one tile right of the brabarian camp. It's joined by a spear. Please check if one of these is automated!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5430BC.JPG

Nice land grab. Looks like we're going to need a ton of workers to a) hook up resources & lux, b) clear the jungle, and c) improve tiles. A couple of settlers ought to go toward Greece.

Here's a silly question. Will patching to 1.21 (which just came out) screw up the game?

Er, yeah... for me at least, since the new patch is only for the US version.

Looks like we can eventually build the FP in our current territory if we ever get some of that jungle cleared.. I'm very happy we now have horses in our territory, even if it'll take a while to get them online. Small nitpick: Adana might imho have been better off one tile east on the river. But, on the whole, great going :goodjob:

edit: is the worker next to Uskudar clearing jungle ? Might it not be better to improve those bonus grassland tiles to the south first ?

Alright guys, we'll need a vote on this 1.21f problem. Should we wait until there is a version? I think that would be best, so there is no discrepency.

I know I'm up, but I'm not sure what to do about the patch issue. I downloaded it, but haven't installed yet. I'm not sure about the patch issue; like, I'm not sure if one is on 1.21 and one is on 1.14, if that will mess it up. I need senior advice here.

About the actual game: I think now we should play peaceful for a while. With the world at war, we do NOT want to get involved. Declaring war on Japan could bring everyone against us. I say we play peaceful and build up the landgrab and out army. Then, when the dust settles, take those weak civs! :yeah:

I got the save. I think I'm going to play tomorrow, when this patch issue is resolved. Sorry for arriving late, I was working on a movie with my friend. :ack:

Well, I'm 'senior' in one way :D but my advice is to hold off on installing the patch, especially as Sirp has been having all sorts of problems with it. Play the game with 1.14 tomorrow, and I'll do the same. Our European teammates, particularly the Dutch, may not be able to upgrade to 1.21, because it's "for the US version." The only unbalancing effect that the patch may have is the Tech we get when we advance (how cool would it be to start with Feudalism?). This in itself ought to be a reason not to mess with the patch until all of us can patch up.

I'm with you on the peace, brother. The question is, how long can we stay un-involved? The other problem is if Japan grows TOO big, they'll be very hard to deal with, especially when they have Samurai.

I can't install he patch yet:

- I'm from Europe
- When I can use the patch, GOTM17 won't sypport it...

Originally posted by jack merchant
Looks like we can eventually build the FP in our current territory if we ever get some of that jungle cleared.. I'm very happy we now have horses in our territory, even if it'll take a while to get them online. Small nitpick: Adana might imho have been better off one tile east on the river. But, on the whole, great going :goodjob:

edit: is the worker next to Uskudar clearing jungle ? Might it not be better to improve those bonus grassland tiles to the south first ?

Thanks for your comment.

We can get the jungle cleared guite quickly, no worries! And I already have settler groups clearing the jungle, but you are right about the shielded grassland.

I see that I displaced Kafa and Ankara (I do not agree about Adana). Ankara must have been the urge to get there before the AI...

EDIT: cgannon64: I know that you tried to comfort us in CG4, when you said that it's normal to be behind at monarch. We're doing a lot better now ;)

Originally posted by Aggie

- When I can use the patch, GOTM17 won't sypport it...

Same thing here. Because that makes two of us (me and Aggie) in the GOTM, DON'T INSTALL THE PATCH. I can't install it until I finish the GOTM, and that will obviously not be today! So we're going to play this in 1.14 until Aggie and I, and whoever else in this game is playing the GOTM finish that game. OK?

BTW, I'm downloading the save now, I'll play today. Damn, this is alot on the table: SG and GOTM...:D Lots of Civving today! :yeah:

Alright, here we are. My 10 turns. Only 10 from now on people, because they are getting kind of long.

(1) Game loaded up, I have to get my bearings. This is one of the problems with SGs - unless you load up each save that each player posts, even when its not your turn, its really easy to be confused. Alright. Priority during my reign will be worker production. We have to connect those cities and clear that jungle. Also it will be settlers and infrastructure. I'm ready to dive in. Contstruction is still pretty high priced, about 10gpt and some other minor stuff. We could research it in 14 turns, but I don't want the waste. I'll wait a little while longer to get Construction. Alright, I end my turn, making minor build changes here and there.

(2) I've never had a Diety ROP (copyright Sirian ;)) before. Anyway, lots of builds everywhere. Bursa riots, I put lux up to 10%, only 4 less gpt. We seem to have a Spear exploring??? Whatever. I think our jungle cities that can't grow over size 2 are going to have to pump out some workers so they can clear that mess. Hmm, I notice that Iznik is working on the GrLib at 100 turns. I'm afraid that's a pipe dream, I switch to a worker. Man, we really need workers. Everything seems to be in a long infra build though...its alright. No one expects jungle to be instant producers anyway. :)

(3) Russia declares war on the Eggies. Oh well...:D Grr, there is an Aztec archer standign right where I want to build a city. I guess I'll wait. Pretty much movement this turn, as we have about 3 or 4 settlers in the field.

(4) Korea's getting the dogpile now, as Rome joins in the fray. Familiar? ;) Four workers working on clearing jungle around Sinop. Damn it! That Aztec archer fortified on the city spot! Argh. Well, I guess I'll just found it somewhere else. I tell you, these AIs CAN be very smart. Now that the price has significantly dropped, I trade Construction for our WM, 2gpt and 290g with Lincoln. He's so far away we probably won't feel the effects. We start on Monarchy at min sci.

(5) Temple->Worker in Edrine. Nothing really but movement and clearing of jungle.

(6) To be honest, I'm feeling this game, I really am. With all this jungle cleared, and with the landgrab done. Long term thinking here, but I think that we won't be going to war until Knights at the earliest. Part of me wants to delay it until Cavs (or Ansai, that's the name, right?) but we ARE going for Conqeust here, and starting in the late Middle Ages is bad. Very bad.

(7) That evil Aztec archer moves. Yes! The Spanish finish the GLib! ARGH!!! Oh well, we didn't really have a chance anyway. We have tech parity with most of the civs, and only down Republic with a few.

(8) Nothing but movement.

(9) Rome/Aztecs MA on Celts. We actually expand our palace! :crazyeye: There is massive barb uprising that I can't see by Sinop.

(10) Final turn. We should only play 10 from now on, as they are getting pretty long. Salonika and Mugla built. I think we should go with a dense build for the jungle. Please build a city on the spot north of Antalya, on the spot where the settler is already standing. I think we should stress workers and settlers from now on. We have two definete jungle clearing teams, but we need more. Good luck! :)

Here is a screenshot of the current empire. In yellow is our most important area of expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5endancient.jpg

And finally, the save!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-250BC.sav

Cromagnon -> Up Now
Jack -> On Deck
Swiftsure
Aggie
Me

Originally posted by cgannon64

Part of me wants to delay it until Cavs (or Ansai, that's the name, right?) but we ARE going for Conqeust here, and starting in the late Middle Ages is bad. Very bad.



Uh, please take a look at LK38 - The Germany *DEITY* Panzer conquest game. We did not START until TANKS and had no problem. You have Siphai - you should rip the AI to shreds and win easily with the killer unit.

Originally posted by LKendter

Uh, please take a look at LK38 - The Germany *DEITY* Panzer conquest game. We did not START until TANKS and had no problem. You have Siphai - you should rip the AI to shreds and win easily with the killer unit.

Thanks for the input LK. It really all depends on the situation. We'll have to see if they AIs are still churnign out military by Knights (Japan has about 20 swords roaming in our territory) or if they are weakened. If we start with Knights, it may be rushed anyway. After all, we have no offensive military to speak of and we aren't even done expanding into that jungle yet.

Got it. I think it's time to slow down on the settlers (two more on the way I see), and build workers. I'm going to switch temples to libraries, as they are cheaper and produce more culture.

10 turns it is.

And we'll all keep the patch at 1.14f.

Inherited turn: Despotism, 144g, +27gpt. Lux 10%, Science 10%, Monarchy due in 34.
Konya, Kafa, Aydin & Izmit switched from temples to libraries. Virtually everyone has Monarchy, but we can't afford it. Currency is 144+14gpt, but I can't sell it to anyone else because they are dirt poor. America has monopoly on Republic. Barbarians near Sinop noted. Our new cities will be near there too.
IBT: Greece demands (and gets) 25 gold and TM. Japs and Greeks stream through our territory.

[1] 230BC: Workers machete. Denizli founded N of Antalya, start spear. I slow down Istanbul's growth a tiny bit, because it will go into disorder soon, and I want library built. I give Celts Construction for their WM. Why does Spain always start out next to at least 4 spices? As we're not going to war with Japan or Greece any time soon, I sign RoP's with them and net 12 gold. I get Currency from China for 141+9gpt, which advances us an age and gets us Monotheism. America still won't give up Republic, so I give him Mono for Monarchy + 10gpt. Republic due in 40. I trade Currency to those who don't have it, getting most of our gold back, plus a Japanese worker. Note that I sell Currency to the Scientific civs only after selling Monotheism, so as to not degrade the value of that tech, which I've sold to anyone with money. We're now 498+40gpt (a lot of gpt deals made - let's hope they don't reneg).
IBT: Aztecs and Celts sign peace. Barbs approach our new city.

[2] 210BC: Brusa builds settler -> Spear. Settler & warrior go north. Edrine worker ->worker.
IBT: Barb horseman kills our vet spear fortified in our city, and takes 33 gold.

[3] 190BC: I abandon Denizli, as two more horses are about to attack, and no defenders nearby. Istanbul library-> worker. Uskudar spear -> spear, which moves west. Horses hooked up to the north, but no road to capital.

[4] 170BC: Edrine worker -> spear.
IBT: Battles rage across our lands

[5] 150BC: Antalya settler -> spear. It goes with a warrior north. Istanbul worker -> spear. China and Greece now have Republic, but 'tis pricey. I'll wait one more turn .
IBT: Greeks settle to our north :mad:

[6] 130BC: Iznik library -> spear. Bursa spear -> worker. It will riot next turn, so I make an entertainer for one turn. China still has the best price on Republic, so I take it for 589+14gpt. Unfortunately, no one else has more than 20 gold, so I can't sell it for anything useful. Feudalism in 40 (no the slider doesn't help).
IBT: Korea and Russia sign peace. Lots of dead bodies piling up.

[7] 110BC: Sinop Galley -> Library. Edrine spear -> spear. Bolu founded to the NE, start spear. Workers machete.
IBT: more dead bodies.

[8] 90BC: Istanbul spear -> worker. Uskudar spear -> Barracks. Bursa worker -> worker. Spears shuffle around to outlying cities.

[9] 70BC: Izmit library -> barracks. Aydin library -> worker. Urfa founded north of Istanbul, start spear. Bingol founded far north, start spear.
IBT: Korea offers RoP and alliance vs Greeks, I drop the Greek part, and get 6 gold and WM out of him. Spain moves a warrior near our workers.

[10] 50 BC: Iznik spear -> barracks. Edrine spear -> warrior. Istanbul worker -> worker (it's not very happy, so I might as well crank out workers here). Bursa worker -> barracks. I make RoP with Spain, getting 30 gold (don't want to risk our workers).

We're par with everyone for tech, even a bit ahead, but no one can buy Republic for more than 20 gold. Iron at Aydin will be hooked up in 2-3 turns, hence the switch from spears to warriors, which will become swords. Getting our horses and gems hooked up will take a long while through the jungle. My plan was to send spears to the outlying cities, and recall the warriors there to be upgraded. We have one warrior in korea, 5 moves away from a goody hut (we have RoP). Who knows? I haven't tried building Hanging Gardens, as everyone else is already. It looks like our westernmost city (Kafa) might be best for FP, but I didn't start it yet. I don't think there's a role for any more settlers, BTW.

The Japanese have good offense (swords, no horses), while the Greeks have good defense (hoplites, horses, no iron). Hopefully, they will beat on each other until one of them runs out of gas, and we can swoop in like vultures. We have 11 more turns of RoP with each, as I figured it would improve relations a bit, and we weren't about to ask them to leave. If our military is strong, we may not want to renew.

Good luck, Jack Merchant!
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-50BC.sav

and the screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS2.jpg

IIRC, I'm up - and, I got it ! :)

edit: heh, you edited your post while I was busy replying :)

After the unfortunate demise of the caveman Sultan Cro-magnon, the Ottoman Grand Vizier goes looking for a suitable replacement and ends up with the mysteriously named Sultan Jack. Persuaded by the vizier that it is really not good for the state of the empire to spend all of his days in the seraglio, Sultan Jack takes charge.
Ppreturn: Make some changes, notably Iznik and Edrine to workers and Istanbul to temple. Our domestic advisor is happy, saying hail to the Sultan baby ! Must be glad I got her out of the harem... I also veto the 'bring back the warriors'-scheme as Sultan Jack does not care for regular swordsmen

30 bc : (1) Establish embassy with China, building the HG, due in 15, and researching at 90% rate. Also with Scandinavia, who have HG due in 4 and are researching at 60%. I get a ROP with the vikings for their world map annd sell our new and improved world map all around for 107 gp total. Some worker movement.

Interturn Wang Kon and Isabella kiss and make up

10 bc (2) Edrine worker-> library, Iznik worker -> market Antalya spear -> library
At the end of the turn though, I decide to revolt to monarchy. I do not think we can support a republic just yet due to all around lack of happiness infrastructure. Monarchy at least has reduced corruption and 3 mp's so our cities can grow a bit once irrigation is in place. We draw 5 turns of anarchy. All cities are rearranged to prevent disorder.

10 AD (3) A quiet round. Greek archers continue to fight Jap swords, losing most of the time. Let's hope they keep at it.

30 AD (4) Good news, I think, as China declares war on the Americans
Istanbul riots. I keep forgetting that cities do grow under anarchy. At least no production was lost. Kafa starves to 1.

50 AD (5) Aztecs and Koreans sign a peace treaty. Rome finishes the Hanging Gardens, America starts the Sistine Chapel (crap. I love that wonder, and we'll need either a miracle or a GL to get it now). A brave Greek archer near Salonika who survived a sword attack with 1 hp left last turn kills another sword. The Korean goody hut gives us..... barbs.

70 AD (6) Spain joins the race for Sistine's. Americans also start Sun Tzu. Greece and Japan sign a peace treaty. Rome and Korea sign a peace treat, ending their utterly phony war. Pity about Greece and Japan though. At least Japan is still fighting the Aztecs, and Greece the Koreans.

90 AD (7) We emerge in Monarchy. Slider set to 8.1.1, netting us 21 gpt. I buy a new Japanese WM for 30 gp and then sell it on for a net profit of 78 gp. Workers continue to emphasise irrigation

110 AD (8) Nothing much. China has engineering and America and Spain feudalism/theology, but we can't buy either of them.

130 (9) Entertainer hired to prevent Istanbul rioting. Bursa spear->library, Peace and quiet reigns throughout the land. I decide to hurry the temple in Istanbul for 128 gp. Our capital needs to grow.

150 (10) Greece (and several others) now has feudalism and theology. It is still out of our price range though. They have also gotten around to hooking up their iron. I try to sell our world map around but it's not very valuable merchandise at the moment.

This was a quiet turn overall. I would have preferred to go to republic but I suspect it simply wouldn't have been viable as the unit support costs and the loss of MP would have meant trouble for our income and for our jungle cities. I did hook up the iron; maybe I should have waited until we had some warriors but we only had (and have) one town with a barracks anyway. Not the recipe for wholesale military buildup. I think the following players will have to continue working on infrastructure. With a dedicated effort we can get the horses and gems online fairly quickly if you build a road straight north from Uskudar. We also need a harbor to buy some luxes; maybe one of the coastal towns can be changed over. Our ROP deals with Japan and Greece expire next turn, I suggest we extend them to maintain friendly relations for now with our future subjects :D
the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-150AD.SAV) Good luck, swiftsure !

Nice trading guys. My only qualm was that you didn't revolt straight away, cromagnon, but I see Jack did, so its alright. Good to see we had tech parity, and that we are only down a tech or two now.

I think top priority now should be infra building, worker production, jungle clearing, and hooking up those horses. With the horses hooked up, we can build some nice knights to go to war, and if we don't want to go to war just yet, we can build up a stockpile of knights to upgrade to Siphais. :)

Go swiftsure!

I can't see how I forgot. I was telling myself to do it, but must've had a brain fart.

I think we could've done well in Republic. With the slider up one or two more notches, we probably would have gotten more than enough income (most of our cities are on rivers) to support our measly army and more to come.

I don't know cromagnon. After all, Monarchy is the ultimate war government, and there will be alot of war in our future. :p A switch from Republic to Monarchy for war might be worse then Monarchy all the way.

Swiftsure is SKIPPED, its been about 26 hours now.

Aggie -> Up Now
Me
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure (Benched until he posts again in this thread)

'got it'

If all goes well, I'm going to play tonight

Guys, I can assure you, you want to go into Republic. Basically, there are three good government types in Civilization III :

Despotism - good because you can be in it without having to discover it! If it wasn't for this, there'd be no civilization at all!
Anarchy - good because when you're in it you're on your way to....
Republic - what everyone wants to be in! It's good for war, it's good for peace, it's good for everything.

If you're playing an Always War game, then you might want to be in monarchy. Almost anything less than this and you want to be in a republic. See GM1, we're playing on Deity, and we're at constant war (as in literally constant, it's a game rule), with at least one civilization, and we're doing great in republic.

Ok ok, if you're religious or if you're sure about constant peace, you *might* want to go into democracy.

-Sirp.

@Sirp

I am a republic fan, too. However, we have ~8 jungle towns with no trade and no temples which will starve at size 2 until we get some jungle cleared. Some of our bigger towns don't have temples yet. We have one lux and no markets. We don't have any trade routes yet either. Under these circumstances, I just didn't see how a republic could be viable yet. Or would it have been better to stay in despotism until we could afford to change ?

jack: You do have lots of jungle villages, but you also have some towns on good productive tiles: Istanbul, Bursa, Antalya, Edrine, Uskudar and so forth. You should move over to republic, but also make it a priority to construct infrastructure buildings: Marketplaces and Libraries in these towns.

At any rate, I would advise against going to Monarchy. You'd definitely want to switch to Republic, I'd say now, but even if you say in a little while, you do not want the double-anarchy dose.

-Sirp.

Sorry guys, mother was rushed into hospital saturday.

No problem swiftsure. My best wishes for your mother, I hope she recovers soon.

Originally posted by Sirp
At any rate, I would advise against going to Monarchy. You'd definitely want to switch to Republic, I'd say now, but even if you say in a little while, you do not want the double-anarchy dose.

-Sirp.

Reading jack merchant's 10 turn summary, I conclude that we alredy are in Monarchy. So that would mean a double-anarchy to go to republic...

That's correct. It may have been :smoke:, but once we are in a position to take advantage of republic (say with both luxes and all our cities hooked up) it may be better to take the double anarchy anyway. Can we get a consensus here ?

Having tried both Monarchy and Republic in several games, I'd say that the benefits of Republic outweigh the negatives. The increased income (from commerce and reduced corruption) in Republic would allow us not only to pay for the troops, but we could also use the lux slider to keep people happy until we get our gems hooked up and marketplaces built.

I'd take the hit on the double anarchy, and probably sooner rather than later.

jack merchant, I was merely reacting on Sirp's remark, not judging your moves. Maybe I would have done the same, I can't tell. I was trying to get an answer to the following: should we switch to republic on short notice or not. I would say NO and that's the way I'm going to play the next 10 turns.

EDIT: As this is a major decision point in the game, I will wait untill AT LEAST 10 pm CET (4 pm in New York...). If I do not have enough reactions by then, I will wait another day...

I didn't think you were judging me (also reacting to Sirp's remark) - though I wouldn't have had a problem with it if you did :) For now, the reasons not to move to republic yet still apply, and it's not like we are going to lose a wonder race over the double anarchy. Either way is fine with me though - I have full confidence in you :p I'd also say go ahead and play today if you have time, it's nice to keep things moving.

P.S. I got my first emperor win over the weekend, but that was quite a different kettle of fish. Having 3 luxes in reach without even the need to fight over them made things noticeably easier.

We don't have Republic yet, correct? If we have it, then I think we should revolt straight-away. But if we don't, we are going to have to spend the rest of our time in Monarchy until we get it.

I like Republic and Monarchy, it doesn't really matter to me. The benefits of it have already been pointed out.

I think we should get that jungle cleared fast though, so those potential productive cities can back up our economy, and fast. :)

Oh, and sorry if I seemed rude by skipping you swiftsure, I had no idea...

Go Aggie! :)

We do have republic. Cromagnon bought it during his turn.

I obtained Republic from China in my 6th turn. For some reason (and I can't think of any now) I didn't revolt. It's not like I was going for a wonder or anything like that :rolleyes:. Like I said, pure brain fart. Or maybe I was enjoying the view of green and red soldiers battling it out...

Again, my tendency would be to go for Republic now, since going for it later may mean forfeiting a wonder.

Alright, we should revolt. That double anarchy will be tough though. How many turns did we pull on the first one?

If they add up to less then 8, we got damn lucky! :ack:

Tough decision, but I'm going into anarchy. :( After our discussion I think it's better to get to republic asap. If there's a time we can afford anarchy, it's now...

Turn 1, 2, 3 170BC - 210BC The Celts and Japan made peace. America demands t/m and 37 gold. They get it.

Turn 4 - 230BC We get in republic. Only 4 turns of anarchy. Lucky, I guess. Lux to 20%, science to 0%, lone scientist in Iznik, preventing city from rioting...

Turn 5 - 250BC :sleep:

Turn 6 - 260BC :sleep:

Turn 7 - 270BC Edrine builds library, start marketplace. Lux to 30%. Lone scientist in Bingol

IT: Washington finished Sistine chapel...

Turn 8 - 280BC :sleep:

Turn 9 - 290BC :sleep:

Turn 10 - 300BC :sleep:

All in all a quiet turn. I decided to have groups of settler cut down the jungle. People, let's have the luxuries connected to our empire asap. It generates money (lux slider can get to a lower rate - saving us money!). I suspect that we are WAY behind now. Let's see how we can catch up :) If we can :(

300 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-300AD.SAV)

Originally posted by jack merchant
'....P.S. I got my first emperor win over the weekend.....'

Congratulations :goodjob: I beat you by three weeks. My 2nd emperor win was GOTM 16...

@'Deity' lurkers: we very much apreciate your input. Thanks for all the tips so far and I'm very keen to hear what you think of our situation now and how to get out of it (although I think we do a 100% better job than CG4 :) ).

Good work Aggie. Sorry that you got stuck with a boring set. ;)

Me ->Up now, got it
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure (Reinstated)
Aggie

I'll play after I finish my homework, one last thing. :)

God damn Americans :mad:. Oh, wait, I AM American :blush: :)
We'll catch up, don't worry. What's our gpt now? Can we research anything on our own?

I think we'll need at least 20 turns to build up infrastructure and units.

Edit: By the way, I hope you didn't feel pressured to go to Republic. I firmly believe that each successive ruler is ultimately responsible for any and all decisions during his/her reign. While you can solicit advice, it shouldn't be so much of a democracy. We're a team, and we'll back you up on any decision made.

Originally posted by cromagnon
God damn Americans :mad:. Oh, wait, I AM American :blush: :)
We'll catch up, don't worry. What's our gpt now? Can we research anything on our own?

I think we'll need at least 20 turns to build up infrastructure and units.

Of course. We should have high gpt, I'll have to check. And the infra build is a must, as well as a jungle clearing build.

Trust me, a war with Knights has much less of a chance then a war with Siphais. :p

Off to play LITERALLY this second. ;)

Here are my 10. Lots of trading!

(Inheriited) We apparently can't go below 30% lux, which is very bad. We are currently at 0% Science, with 24gpt a turn and Fuedalism due in 24 turns. Tech prices on Feudalism are still very high, despite the common knowledge. We unfortuantely have only DYES has the currently attainable luxury. War is definetely going to be necessary. After this long set of light jazz...erm, this long set of infra builds, we're going to have to go with lots of military. But, unfortunately, we have to get Feudalism to get Chivalry! :mad: (Sorry, my mom's been playing too much Light Rock stations in the car...:crazyeye: )

(1) The question is posed: Do you break the bank (at least half our gpt) to get Feudalism? I think so. With Marketplaces being built round the nation, we could afford it. Feudalism bought from the Vikings for WM, 254g, and 14gpt. A tough trade, but we need it. Problem number two: We have almost NO barracks! This is bad, especially with war in our future. I tell you, we don't look like a warmongering nation. Good, apparently no one has Chivarly, or at least no one I contacted.

(2) Note: My current policy now is that every city builds either a Barracks, at least that is the usual case. We need a Veteran army. I could be building an army of MedInf, but I figure its best to get this Infra out of the way and then build Knights.

(3) Here is the main reason I didn't want to go into a Republic: NO MPs!!! A 30% lux tax is killing us...but I guess it was worth it for the better economy, right? YES!!! Gems are hooked up. Time to MM and see if we can drop the lux rate a bar. Sorry, never mind. They are hooked up, but not to our capital. The two lonely workers battle to cross the jungle now...

(4) Nothing but worker movement.

(5) Wow, I'm really starting to remember how good Republic is. Simple roading and clearing of jungle has bumped our GPT to 21! Several civs have Chivalry, but aren't willing to deal. Oh well, just let the price drop I guess.

(6) Battles rage across the Aztec Mountains. GPT up to 30 now. I can't wait until the Gems are hooked up and we can drop lux, we'll have a killer economy.

(7) GPT up to 33. :D Chivalry is still not on the trading block.

(8) Nothing. I think the main reason Chivalry won't be traded is that we don't have enough gold in our bank to give them...they love pure gold.

(9) Nothing.

(10) Isabella demands a petty sum, something like WM and 30g, we give it to her. Chivalry is up for trade! Again, I break the bank to get it, I give the Vikings WM, 180g, and 29gpt for it. Yikes. Sounds rough, but our economy should recover for two reasons: Our past 20gpt deal should be expiring in the next 10 turns or so, and we should hook up gems very soon. When gems get hooked up, we should be able to lower lux by 10%, which nets alot of gold (16gpt last time I checked). We currently can't build knights, but they'll come online simultaneously with our Gems.

Notes: As soon as the jungle one tile North of Konya is cleared BUILD A ROAD ASAP!!! That road gives us Horses and Gems! Also, I suggest Barracks and Knights be built around our nation, mostly by the big industry cities, of course. All military units should be gathered in Iznik or Aydin, just for simplicities sake. Japan is our first target, no? ;) Besides that, just keep on scouring the trade market. Good luck.

And the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5_400AD.sav

You're up cromagnon!

I got 5 turns of anarchy, which means 9 total. Not too bad. Our income in monarchy was 22 gpt at 8.1.1, so the improvement is not great yet but will no doubt get better.
Americans finishing Sistine's: yikes ! they only started it halfway during my turn, meaning they built it in ~12 turns or they got a GL. We'll probably need a palace prebuild to get any kind of wonder soon.
ANyone fancy taking on Japan with chivalry around ? :D

Originally posted by jack merchant

ANyone fancy taking on Japan with chivalry around ? :D

Of course! From what I can tell based on their troop movements, their army is large, but its still swords, mostly. If we can flank them with Knights, it should be no problem.

Um, they have a 20% discount on the Samurai cost, meaning they only take 56 shields to build. Plus the first time they win a fight will be a golden age. We'll need to hit them fast and hard, something I don't see us doing yet. On the bright side, they have no horses that they could upgrade.

Smooth... Jazz.... CD101.9.... Is that what your mom listens to? :D

I got it, and will try to play tonight (may need to go back to work later).

If the Japs are still fighting the Aztecs, they will be a relatively easy target. It's unfortunate that we can't extort them for tech, though. :p Silly variant rule.

Originally posted by jack merchant
Um, they have a 20% discount on the Samurai cost, meaning they only take 56 shields to build. Plus the first time they win a fight will be a golden age. We'll need to hit them fast and hard, something I don't see us doing yet. On the bright side, they have no horses that they could upgrade.

:eek: Totally forgot about those Samurai. That might change our plans.

What's the consensus here, do we go for Japan, Greece, Aztecs, or Germany? Japan is the only one that shares a full border with us, but they also have Samurai.

@ cromagnon: Yup. But I'm trying to convert her to KROCK and Q104! :D

Inherited turn: We're a Republic, lux @ 30%, one lone scientist giving us Engineering in 40 turns. We have 0 gold in the treasury, +4 gpt, because we're giving 43 gpt to the Vikings. Bursa is rioting, but now has a taxman. I change Istanbul to cathedral, almost everywhere else has barracks or libraries set. I renew our RoP treaties with everyone (including Japan - we're not strong enough, nor will we be in 20 turns), and squeeze 28+2gpt out of them. I give Aztecs Chivalry for Theology + 2 gpt and some change and RoP. We still lack embassies with several smaller civs, who might give us some gold for RoP.

[1] 410AD: Bolu Library -> Barracks. Sinop would have rioted next turn, except we hooked up our gems :). I micromanage a few tiles that were unworked, and we now get 9gpt.
IBT: Vikings are building Leo's, in addition to the Spanish.

[2] 420AD: Workers hack & slash. I switch MI in Bursa to knight.

[3] 430AD: Iznik marketplace -> barracks. Antalya barracks -> marketplace. I decline to trade Greek ivory for our dyes, as Alex wants all our gold and gpt for it (bastard). Still, one more lux (total 3) would be greatly benificial, especially with so many marketplaces coming online.
IBT: Celts declare war on China (I wouldn't have done that, Brennus). Greeks have knights in the field now.

[4] 440AD: Uskudar Barracks -> knight. Drop lux to 20%, getting 31 gpt. However, I have to make a taxman in Sinop, and I switch barracks to temple.
IBT: Spain & America join against China.

[5] 450AD: Edrine aqueduct -> knight. I give Brennus Currency for 83 gold. I get Engineering from Russia for 87 gold & WM. Printing Press in 40. Now we're behind Education & Invention from half our enemies, and they won't give it up. I try again to trade dyes for ivory with Greece, and get it down to 75+2

[6] 460AD: Salonica library -> temple (may want to make this barracks). I take the ivory deal with Alex, as Istanbul is about to riot next turn when it grows. Odd, the unhappy faces there have not changed. *scratches head* I shuffle some tiles back and forth, and now there's an extra happy face :confused:. Dropping lux would still require some entertainers/taxmen, so I keep it at 20%, but our income is now 41gpt.
IBT: Greece gets the Aztecs in on the Korea-pounding action.

[7] 470AD: I disband two regular warriors in non-bordering towns, to cut down on costs. Like Jack, I'm not a huge fan of non-veteran troops.

[8] 480AD: Hack & Slash

[9] 490AD: Iznik barracks -> aqueduct. Embassies in Entremont (crappy city) & Rome (size 12, 6 defenders, Sun Tzu's in 7). I take Brennus' WM & 9 gold for RoP. Ceasar is scraping pennies. I decide that Uskudar needs an aqueduct more than a knight at this point (esp since it has so many unworked tiles), but it's greyed out. I can think of no reason this is so - the box is full, growth in 9999...:confused:
IBT: America and China sign peace, Korea and Greece sign peace. Toledo builds Sun Tzu's (I was hoping Japan would, so we'd get it sooner). Then the kicker:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5Threat.jpg
:mad:
Of course, I comply, but it took me a long time to admit that it wasn't worth the fight. We have neither the troops, nor the money to get people to fight for us.

[10] 500AD: Edrine knight -> knight. Mugla library -> worker.

Here's the tech summary: Greece, Spain, China, America, and Scandinavia are the leaders, up by Invention, Education, and Printing Press (doh!). Rome has Invention and PP, but I can't get Education from anyone. Everyone else (including Japan) is equal to us.

We have a 14 gpt deal ending with Scandinavia next turn. RoP can be signed with Ceasar when he has any money. We have 69+45 gpt, PP due in 36. If we break even on research, we get PP in 19. Russia and America are the only civs we don't have embassies with.

As far as war with Japan goes, we have a RoP expiring in 10, but he also forced the dyes from us (20 more turns). The good news is, I haven't seen a single samurai. We're weak compared to everyone except Russia and Celts. We're still woefully underpowered.

Good luck Jack Merchant! Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-500AD.sav)

And the screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5SS3.jpg

I understand that we had to give in to the demands of Japan and give away dyes. But now we can't attack for 20 turns, or else or rep is gone. Very bad thing in our position, because buying with gold per turn will be almost impossible. On the bright side: a lot of AI civs broke so many deals, that gpt trading between them also suffered. Can't be a bad thing.

We also could have declared war and tried to bribe a couple of neighbours to join the war. In order to have the attention of the Japanese spread. But I agree with cromagnon's decision :)

EDIT: once we attack a civ (preferably Japan, being small), we must protect our resources/luxuries against pilaging and pilage the resources of the enemy. This will keep them form building a samurai-army!!

We're doing quite well, I must add.

Originally posted by cromagnon
Edit: By the way, I hope you didn't feel pressured to go to Republic. I firmly believe that each successive ruler is ultimately responsible for any and all decisions during his/her reign. While you can solicit advice, it shouldn't be so much of a democracy. We're a team, and we'll back you up on any decision made.

Don't worry, I made the desicion myself ;) After constructive comment of all of you and Sirp.

Got it and playing.

Edit :I just checked Uskudar and the aqueduct somehow got caught up in the build queue. It's changed now. A further reason not to go to war with Japan is that the trade route to Greece runs through them.

Good to see I'm not the only one on the forum at a crazy hour. :crazyeye:

Good job Cromagnon, that was some nice trading. I don't think tech parity is really possible right now, because those AIs on the other island are all trading freely. BUT, I think if we keep tech parity with the civs on our island, like we're doing now, we'll be fine.

How many knights do you guys think we need to attack Japan? I think 15 or 20 should do the job, because they do have Samurai.

Good luck Jack.

Preturn: Bursa changed from knight to market, Uskudar to aqueduct as mentioned above. Ankara switched to library from temple. Russia joins the war against Spain on the Chinese side and comes calling for a tm swap. Sure Cathy. The Japanese and the Greeks join the race for Leo's.

510 AD (1) Istanbul completes cathedral, growth in 1, worker in 1 so I decide to peel off a worker and then go to knight production. Ankara and Urfa finish library, start temple. Sinop finishes temple, starts market. It's going to need some worker help as it only has 3 shields. Japan now has invention, printing press and education. I buy education from the Russians for 45 gpt and 100 gp and then sell it to Rome for printing press & wm. PP then goes to Russia for 10 gpt and 100 gp. Nobody has anything beyond education yet. We can now start building our halfprice universities. Also sell the wm around for 21 gold total. Research is set to Music Theory for now.

520 AD (2) Chinese sign Aztecs in against the Celts, Aztecs sign Russia in against the Koreans. Istanbul completes worker, starts university. MMOW. Bergen, Scandinavia, completes Leo's. It seems all wonders are completed on the other continent.

530 AD (3) Zzzz

540 AD (4) Establish an embassy with Russia and sell them a ROP for wm+17 gold. Cathy is now polite.

550 AAD (5) Edrine builds knight, starts university. Chinese buy in Spain in war against Celts. This should help us buy tech at lower prices if they handle it at all competently.

560 AD (6) America comes calling for tm and 23 gp. Sure Abe. Rome wants to trade world maps, why not ? Buy an embassy in Washington, producing 19 spt, market due in 2. They have the Pyramids and Sistine. In other words, they must die :p. They're bigger than us so no ROP is signed. Uskudar finishes aqueduct, starts university. Mugla finishes worker, starts temple.
Sell the Celts Mono for wm, 3gpt and 20gp.

570 AD (7) The Chinese must really hate the Celts, as they buy in the Greeks against them too. The Greeks then buy in the Russians. Korea wants to ally with us against the Russians but is sent back empty-handed. We hook up the iron near Kafa but no-one is buying. We could trade it to Korea but they have nothing to offer. Bursa finishes market, starts cathedral.

580 AD (8) Rome joins the fight against the Celts. Can you say "dogpile"?

590 AD (9) Istanbul finishes university, starts knight. Aydin finishes temple, starts courthouse. Bingol completes library, starts spear. MM tiles in the Bursa-Sinop-Antalya triangle to give all these use of improved tiles.

600 AD (10) Koreans and Aztecs sign a peace treaty. Antalya complets market, starts cathedral. This may be changed to a university if so desired. Workers are mining the plains peninsula south of Bursa to give Bursa & Sinop more production. America, Greece and China now have music theory. So much, once more, for our 40-turn research.

We now have 160 gp and are earning 75 gpt. We are still only behind by invention and music theory, although someone might have gunpowder too which we would then not be able to see.
I suggest rushing the aqueduct at Iznik as it has enough food to grow very quickly. I used our worker force in the south mostly to improve the grasslands and plains as this is, imho, far more efficient than leaving them unimproved while hacking away at the jungle. Other than that, we're making slow but steady progress.
I have not spotted any samurai so far.

I leave the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-600_AD.SAV) for the capable hands of Sultan Swiftsure to peruse.

P.S. Cgannon, this might be a crazy hour for you, but here in the Netherlands, my 'got it' was posted at a fairly sane 12:30 pm :)

Two or three world wars already in this warmonger game and we didn't get into ONE fight :cool:

Great turnout jack merchant :goodjob:

I understand that we had to give in to the demands of Japan and give away dyes. But now we can't attack for 20 turns, or else or rep is gone. Very bad thing in our position, because buying with gold per turn will be almost impossible. On the bright side: a lot of AI civs broke so many deals, that gpt trading between them also suffered. Can't be a bad thing.

We also could have declared war and tried to bribe a couple of neighbours to join the war. In order to have the attention of the Japanese spread. But I agree with cromagnon's decision
Believe me, it was with a heavy heart and hand that I signed the dyes over to that smug bastard. There was a time not too long ago (maybe even last week) where I would have said NFW! But with one knight and one midaeval infantry, 45 gold, and a horde of japanese swords at our doorstep, I decided not to risk it.

Great trading, Jack. I was disappointed that my PP gambit failed so miserably, but you made the best of it. I've almost always seen the AI go the middle or lower route in the middle ages, not go for Democracy.

It sounds like the Celts' days are numbered. Spain was strong compared to us, and Celts were weak, and they share a tiny continent. Too bad they don't have anything we can trade for. At least it's good to see the wars have started up again. I was afraid the world would be at peace, and we'd fall way behind.

I understand your desire to go after the American wonders, but this should be tempered by the fact that they're on the other continent, and won't affect ours. Which reminds me how useless Sun Tzu's is now, in Toledo on that tiny island. :p

We might be able to take on the Japanese with 15-20 knights, but we'd need to start cranking them out like mad. Part of me feels like we should beeline for Mil Tradition, to get the most use out of our Sipahis, before anyone gets to Repl Parts. This is especially true with the fast pace of AI research in the non-traditional branches.

Anyone have an idea why I couldn't build an aqueduct in Uskudar?

I was only joking about America, their time will come :) I think you couldn't build an aqueduct in Uskudar because it was somehow entered into the build queue. When I removed it from the queue, I could change to the aqueduct right away.
I agree we should beeline to military tradition. It's probably more cost-effective to go after Japan with Sipahi so we should just stock up on the knights and then mass-upgrade. Greece should be next in line. I think Korea and Aztecs are far enough behind that we can afford to leave them until last.
By the end of swiftsure's turn the dyes will be available for trade again. We should trade them away, preferably to someone else, before Japan can extort them from us again. I totally agree it was necessary to give in to Toku's demand.

Edit: Rep parts is not a gamekiller for Sipahi - it just means you need guns and lots of them.

:wallbash:
My bad. The game gave me the pop-up "Uskudar is not growing - (and I picked the option) Finish Knight, then build aqueduct." I've turned that option off in my regular games, so I haven't seen it in more than 2 months, and I must have breezed by it.

I totally agree with your strategy.

Will pick it up tonight.... regarding AI research i,ve always found that the AI will only go as far as chemistry on the lower half and then change to head for Democracy and Economics. after Chem i always now try to research Physics as a good trading tech.

We can trade for invention but it would cost us a lot so i'll wait a few turns.

610ad rop with scandanavia, japan and spain cancelled by them i renegotiate the one with spain us getting 1gpt. the others want money which i dont want to give them.

izmet builds marketplace starts knight

620ad edrine builds university starts knight. iznik builds aquaduct starts knight

630ad istanbul builds knight starts another

640ad kafa builds spear starts temple

trade w/m, 21gpt and 420gp to china for invention

650ad america declares war on scandanavia, celts destroyed by china. adana builds library starts barracks,salonika builds temple starts courthouse

trade w/m, 48gpt and 140gp to greece for gunpowder. we have 2 sources of saltpeter to hook up.

660ad aztecs and russia sign alliance against spain. greece demands t/m and 6gp and we cave in... our time will come. uskadur builds university starts knight,urfa builds temple starts barracks.

trade gunpowder for music theory with korea. start research on chem

670ad greece cancels ivory-dyes agreement but we need ivory as its our third lux. have to give greece dyes,7gpt and 10gp... personal note: greece, second up against the wall when the revolution comes.

istanbul and edrine both build knights and start them again

680ad korea and russia sign peace treaty, bolu builds temple starts marketplace.

690ad iznik builds knight starts another.saltpeter connected

trade dyes to rome for 4gpt and 15gp

700ad- zzzzzzz

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-700AD.SAV

Yay, we have saltpeter ! [dance] [party] :tank: :die:

Nice job guys, two turns while was at school, woohoo! ;) Anyway, its got that we have Saltpeter, that lifts a weight off our shoulders.

I'm guessing common consensus is to war with Japan with Siphai? I think thats as far back as we can push it. How many knights do we have, I'd like to get an actual number on that.

Aggie -> Up Now
Me
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure

Wow, I played last night and now I'm up again! Got it.

EDIT: We've got 6 knights now...

Good pace on the game. Nice job trading, Swiftsure. I thought the techs would be out of our price range.

Any news on the japanese forces? I should have sent a scout inthe their territory while I had RoP with them to get an idea. If they don't have saltpeter, they're as good as dead, although we do have to watch for the samurai counterattack.

Don't worry about Greece yet; we'll get our ivory from Japan :mwaha:

At some point, we should really start our FP in Kafa, even if it takes us forever to build it.

Pre-turn, a little investigation.

- Japan and the Aztecs don't have horses :lol:
This could mean that these civs might want to declare war to claim those resources. We MUST be ready for that.

I agree with the rest, so...

IT: China and Spain get a MA against the Aztecs.

Turn 1 - 710 AD Istanbul and Izmit finished Knights, build start Knights. Our income is 58 gpt now. No-one wants to sell Chemistry.

IT: Spain drags Korea into the war against the Aztecs...

Turn 2 - 720 AD Konya builds temple, start Knight. Edrine and Uskadar finish Knights and start new ones... We are able to trade Chemistry for 60 gpt. Too much imho.

IT: Greece-America and Russia-Greece against the Vikings. The Aztecs and the Spanish make peace. That stupid AI! First Spain drags Korea and China into the war and now they get a rep hit by making peace.... :rolleyes:

Turn 3 - 730 AD More jungles cleared

IT: The Vikings want a MA against America and a ROP. I agree with the ROP, but decline the MA. They get polite with us.

Turn 4 - 740 AD Adana finishes barracks, starts temple. We get Chemistry from China for 275 g and 45 gpt. Start researching banking at lone scientist speed. No-one has metallurgy

IT: Spain want a MA against Russia, I decline and give her w/m

Turn 5 - 750 AD Urfa finishes barracks and starts knight. Instanbul builds knight and start another... Metallurgy is still unknown in the world.

Turn 6 - 760 AD Ankara finishes temple and starts courthouse. Iznik finishes another Knight, but we still don't have enough of them...

China and Spain get a MA against Russia

Turn 7 - 770 AD Sinop builds marketplace and starts temple. New knight in Edrine -> Knight. America, Vikings, Spain, Greeks and Japanese know Metallurgy now. Edrine grew and is prevented from rioting next turn with a taxman.

IT: China and Vikings get MA against Aztecs. Poor Aztecs... :(

Turn 8 - 780 AD Bursa finishes Catherdral and starts......Knight! Uskudar: Knight -> Knight.

IT: Greece doesn't want to extend the ROP deal... Greece captures Alesund from the Vikings near our borders.

Turn 9 - 790 AD Bingol finishes spearman and start temple. Istanbul: Knight -> Knight.

IT: The Americans start with Newton.

Turn 10 - 800 AD Aydin finishes courthouse and starts Knights. We are not able to trade at the moment, because our income is only 12 gpt. But within 5 turn we will have it increased to 100 gpt (couple of deals expire). We may be able to get metallurgy then.

I ended my turn with 15 knights and 9 in the build queues. Scandinavia is losing terrain and we are catching up in the histograph. 4th with one point less than the Vikings and close to China. The Aztecs seem like an obvious choice for us to destroy, along with the Japanese. Our army is weak compared to the Japs (and Spain Russia, America), but average compared to the Aztecs, Greece and strong compared to the Koreans.

We might want to go to war now against the Aztecs. They are weak and we can join the others in destroying them. Korea can follow. Only drawback: no real new luxuries and resources on their territory.

The Japanese should be easy targets with our UU.

On the economic side, we should build banks to generate more income, which is needed in the industrial age.

800 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-800AD1.SAV)

I've going to have to agree with Aggie on jumping on the "Kill the Aztecs/Korea" bandwagon. With 15 knights the war should be easily, and the Koreans/Aztecs have been fighting for a long time. It'll just be a matter of maneurvering forces.

I got it, I'm playing right now. Be back soon. :)

Looks like we got a corrupt file, Aggie. "Not a valid save file." Can you zip it and try again?