Version: Philip 01-15-2013.
Version: Acularius 02-02-2013

First off, and should be rather obvious, I have in no way created the base map.
I'm just trying to keep it up to date with the new terrains, resources, and civilizations that C2C has to offer.
If you want to help, play the map, give tips and suggestions, back it up with reasons. I don't need many to institute something.

Philipschall has taken over, I'll try to keep the first page up to date.
I also can't keep calling it "Acularius' GEM map", so I've changed the title of the post to reflect it.

Instructions, extract the .rar file into the 'privatemaps' folder of the C2C mod, load up C2C and play.
For best use out of it, pick the custom scenario, and customise to your playing pleasure.

@Acularius, can you put a link to philipscall's spawninfo file in the first post. You should include the instructions to replace the existing Assetts/XML/Units/CIV4SpawnInfos.XML with it. They should probably compress the standard one first as a back up, copying may not work as it may result in both sets being active in game.
In order to get more accurate spawning of animals, follow these instructions.
The file is included in both downloads. Enjoy.

Resources: I'm trying to keep it relatively in line with the Real Earth, but I'm also trying to keep the resource spread in line with the Pre-Columbian scenario so there will be no potatoes in Europe.


There are 3 variants of the map,
No preset civs map (Essentially a open map, random play)
5 preset Civs (China [Xian start], Egypt, India, Maya and Sumeria [Lagash start])
Pre Columbian Civ start (Any civilization before the ~1500's essentially)

Note on Pre Columbian Civ start. We're at 50 civilizations now.

This are is just to keep it all centralized, find bugs and try to find balance.



~Thoughts and ideas, please discuss.

Changelog 02-02-2013

Fixed the bad flags afflicting Germany and England. [Aesthetic more than anything but it bothered me. XD]
Japan: Remove the dormant volcano on the second half of Shikoku, and replace it with silk, while changing the silk south of the Kyoto starting location into beef. Also tacked in some Coal on Kyushu and a mountain in Hokkaido, furthermore placed some Obsidian south of what would be Fujiyama (Dormant Volcano)
Carthage: Generally re-arrangement of terrain tiles, to better allow Carthage to form its cultural wonder. Generally buff to the area essentially with an addition of copper south of the Carthage starting spot. This should make them more competitive around the Mediterranean.
Scotland was 'Pimped' out, I didn't add anything in terms of food resources, but Scotland now boasts a source of Stone and Obsidian (Together combined they form FLINT!) as well as some Prime Timber.
I sprinkled some Obsidian around the Old World, in regards to this I also changed around the Aegean and the west coast of Anatolia a bit to allow Greece to hook up with the island source of Obsidian. Rhodes, was brought closer to Anatolia... to represent that they are islands, I placed rivers to 'cordon' them off... to represent Rhodes strategic importance, it is a hill tile.
Removed both Korea (cramped and on a peninsula) and Arabia (Constant under performer, and suited for the chopping block).


[I]Remember that in no ways are these changes permanent. Any civilization removed can also be put back.
Latest version: [Acularius 02-02-2013]
Comes with the Pre-Columbian exchange, and the no pre-set map.

Not necessarily map issues per se, but touch on points that may be be relevant:

With v22 I started a new GEM 38 (latest one, modified by DRJ I think, that is included in v22) game on eternity as England (start as minors off). I knew that being on a small island would make life hard in terms of growth, but I expected the absence of initial military pressure might compensate. These are my observations so far:

1) England really only has room for 2 cities. I'll probably cram in a 3rd for early prioduction, but it will mean massive overlap, and long-term very sub-optimal placement (the two would essentially be London and Liverpool/Glasgow - between them in real life)

2) I was very disappointed to find no deer once I researched scavenging. Historically England had deer, and the hunting of them was restricted on large tracts of land to the monarch (and those he allowed). I think one of the forest tiles in the south should really have deer. The horses that are present on the Welsh borders are welcome enough but relatively inaccurate I think.

3) I'm kinda glad to be out of the military pressure of mainland Europe! I just researched tracking, and already the Celts are cutting a swathe across europe and have eliminated Spain, Rome, France, and Germany. As a result the Celts now have 3 cities and no other visible civ has more than one (and its a thousand turns or so before tribalism)! I suspect this will likely make the Celts unstoppable in this part of the world (though apparently they are only ranked 3rd in power currently globally!). This probably isn't a map issue, so much as an AI defense issue, but I'm not sure what caused the Celts to be so successful.

4) Due to my lack of land I plan to adopt a totally different tech strategy than I normally do (I essentially beeline shamanism usually), and beeline to canoes in the hope of garrisoning Ireland first, which would give me an optimal third city.

5) Another non-map issue, but on eternity I had many (more than half) of my turns with nothing to do apart from press 'enter', often with long runs of 10+ turns like this waiting for the next build to complete, or animal to turn up. Playing on my laptop the turn times are about 10-15 seconds currently, so having to interact each turn is slightly annoying (I was playing while cooking!) Made me realise how valuable (in the early game) a player option to auto-ENTER at the ends of decision-free turns would be (as discussed in another thread), so I plan to implement this soon.

With v22 I started a new GEM 38 (latest one, modified by DRJ I think, that is included in v22) game on eternity as England (start as minors off). I knew that being on a small island would make life hard in terms of growth, but I expected the absence of initial military pressure might compensate. These are my observations so far:
1) England really only has room for 2 cities. I'll probably cram in a 3rd for early prioduction, but it will mean massive overlap, and long-term very sub-optimal placement (the two would essentially be London and Liverpool/Glasgow - between them in real life)

I cramped 4 cities in but I also could hav had 5... (London, York, Glasgow and Plymouth) I decided to found the fifth on the hebrides later, as I had to fight off barbs in Ireland first (they had a city there and 30 units wandering around), but most of the time the hebride city didn't develop but rather cost me a little fortune.


2) I was very disappointed to find no deer once I researched scavenging. Historically England had deer, and the hunting of them was restricted on large tracts of land to the monarch (and those he allowed). I think one of the forest tiles in the south should really have deer. The horses that are present on the Welsh borders are welcome enough but relatively inaccurate I think.

I was lucky to catch a Moose that was coming from scotish tundra once, to get deer in my GEM/england game... but I felt like you before lol


3) I'm kinda glad to be out of the military pressure of mainland Europe! I just researched tracking, and already the Celts are cutting a swathe across europe and have eliminated Spain, Rome, France, and Germany. As a result the Celts now have 3 cities and no other visible civ has more than one (and its a thousand turns or so before tribalism)!
I suspect this will likely make the Celts unstoppable in this part of the world (though apparently they are only ranked 3rd in power currently globally!). This probably isn't a map issue, so much as an AI defense issue, but I'm not sure what caused the Celts to be so successful.

I suppose you didn't start with the AI having 2 settlers each? In this case celts often get no secound city. so they would mass produce units eventually getting one or two less defended 2cnd cities from of other AI? just guessing, though


4) Due to my lack of land I plan to adopt a totally different tech strategy than I normally do (I essentially beeline shamanism usually), and beeline to canoes in the hope of garrisoning Ireland first, which would give me an optimal third city.

Hehe doing same as japan atm, just got boats, god, turn 2000ish! the game can begin now lol^^ and now I perhaps found the reason why I will probably lose the game (see balance thread)


5) Another non-map issue, but on eternity I had many (more than half) of my turns with nothing to do apart from press 'enter', often with long runs of 10+ turns like this waiting for the next build to complete, or animal to turn up. Playing on my laptop the turn times are about 10-15 seconds currently, so having to interact each turn is slightly annoying (I was playing while cooking!) Made me realise how valuable (in the early game) a player option to auto-ENTER at the ends of decision-free turns would be (as discussed in another thread), so I plan to implement this soon.

man, you got it. one day, I was holding my book with one hand, reading while pressing end turn with my foot on external keyboard and my laptop was plugged in tv via hdmi... now i won't tell you about the type of glass in my other hand, to help me overcome this endless, repetitive action, felt like the guy in "lost" who had to press the button everyday lol

I cramped 4 cities in but I also could hav had 5... (London, York, Glasgow and Plymouth) I decided to found the fifth on the hebrides later, as I had to fight off barbs in Ireland first (they had a city there and 30 units wandering around), but most of the time the hebride city didn't develop but rather cost me a little fortune.

Yeh, you can physically fit them, but boy will they suck later on.
I suppose you didn't start with the AI having 2 settlers each? In this case celts often get no secound city. so they would mass produce units eventually getting one or two less defended 2cnd cities from of other AI? just guessing, though
Nope. Just one settler each. I started the scenario on emporer with increasing difficulty as an option

Not necessarily map issues per se, but touch on points that may be be relevant:


England should have deer in the New Forrest at a minimum. Cornish tin, Welsh Coal are also absent iirc.

Pretty sure Cornish tin is not absent, it should actually be around the area on the hill I believe since I replaced what use to be silver there. I will load up and do a quick check to be sure.
As for resources such as coal and deer, I haven't touched the initial layout set down in the original GEM with the resources. As for the horses, they have been there since the original GEM, and for balance reasons I can agree with it since i doubt the English ai would trade for horses, since it doesn't have a huge resource surplus to trade with other civilizations.
I thought there was deer in the forest north of England, on the borders of Scotland I think.


It also comes down to the problem that Wales is essentially 2 tiles big and it comes down to a problem I have when placing resources in the Middle East, its getting crowded over there. [I'm in no rush to give Wales coal, as it is already present in Northern England. Unfortunately the Welsh coal fields are also located where geologist found the Stone used for stonehenge, hence the stone resource located in Southern Wales as well.]
There is coal in the area of, I believe, the GEM equivalent of Yorkshire. If this map isn't off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British.coalfields.19th.century.jpg


Notes in my English gameplay: (Oddly enough that's who I've choosen to play as well.)
-The Portuguese cut a huge swath into Europe, extending as far as all of France, but then Brazil broke off with the French cities.

-The Huns cut a swath through the Mesopotamic cities, and then they broke away leaving a Canadian dominance in the area until it also splintered apart.

-Egypt relocated to Lagash and were kicked out of Egypt itself by barbarians. I'm going to have to look again but the Byzantines did not settle in Constantinople but have appeared to more their cty further down the coast in Asia Minor.

-I'm thinking of giving Egypt more initial production resources in order to survive the barbarian onslaught. [Opinions?]

-Furthermore, North America seems to not fair well against raging barbarians. I know they are suppose to be raging and rampant, but I tend to think the settings might be altogether too high. Is there possibly a middle option? I do enjoy the additional barbarians, but I would rather it not be this extreme. [Is this as a scenario option creation possible?]

-On the topic, I had no problem hunting down little creatures in England, since they hail from Scotland, I just set up 'hunter' units on a forrested hill and it keeps a trickle of animals in.

Personally though, I will take a look at the area, I'm not however the most keen on making sure resources appear in the exact same spot as they did in real life simply because it would be impossible to do that for everywhere. I will try my best to do so in accordance with the limitations presented on the map.

EDIT: Looking in England, there is indeed tin, however there is no deer as pointed out which I thought there was. Now, the location of New Forrest roughly in GEM is where I have placed the apple resource, would anyone see a problem if I moved the apple to the forest north of the London start? Next to the Wheat on the river? In theory this should allow the construction of the English culture still for England. [Since the English culture requires, coast, apple and forest.] Thoughts on this change?

Edit 2: Loading up the 5 civ preset showed a similar problem to the initial release of my 'Pre Columbian' map, that is, the location starts seem to have been erased. I've fixed the version I have on my computer and when unless you want it right away I'l probably hold onto until the release of the next map pack.

nvm wrong area, needs to be in drjs.

EDIT: Looking in England, there is indeed tin, however there is no deer as pointed out which I thought there was. Now, the location of New Forrest roughly in GEM is where I have placed the apple resource, would anyone see a problem if I moved the apple to the forest north of the London start? Next to the Wheat on the river? In theory this should allow the construction of the English culture still for England. [Since the English culture requires, coast, apple and forest.] Thoughts on this change?

Kent is known as the Garden county of England, so the apples would fit better in Kent.

Edit 2: Loading up the 5 civ preset showed a similar problem to the initial release of my 'Pre Columbian' map, that is, the location starts seem to have been erased. I've fixed the version I have on my computer and when unless you want it right away I'l probably hold onto until the release of the next map pack.

I would like to see it pushed to SVN to as GEM 42 Civs, it adds nicely up to the GEM 38 Civs, the more the better I say.
Btw what about we help each other editing the GEM 42 tropical/arctic in?

We could split to segments like
- artic america/ arctic russia,
- tropical africa/ tropical india/ tropical indonesia/ tropical pacific/ tropical caribean
- artic antarctica 1/ artic antartica 2

so each time someone made something he posts the save and the next one can add the next region. Would make a lot of work easier to handle.

Last step would be the discussion about placement of cold and hot currents --- btw would be nice to have the water currents fluctuations play a central role in the new sooner or later to come active weather system... (like El Nino)

I would like to see it pushed to SVN to as GEM 42 Civs, it adds nicely up to the GEM 38 Civs, the more the better I say.
Btw what about we help each other editing the GEM 42 tropical/arctic in?

We could split to segments like
- artic america/ arctic russia,
- tropical africa/ tropical india/ tropical indonesia/ tropical pacific/ tropical caribean
- artic antarctica 1/ artic antartica 2

so each time someone made something he posts the save and the next one can add the next region. Would make a lot of work easier to handle.

Last step would be the discussion about placement of cold and hot currents --- btw would be nice to have the water currents fluctuations play a central role in the new sooner or later to come active weather system... (like El Nino)

Pretty sure I got the arctic bits down actually, I got the tropical ocean down but I don't think I've actually place the 'tropical coasts' yet.

I just used the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, as well as the Arctic Circle. I would have used the Antarctic circle but the GEM is shifted north and does not have anough of the 'south' for it to be feasible.

As for putting the apples in Kent, I think I'll leave the wheat there and keep with the plan to put in the northern spot. I suspect it has roughly the same climate as my local area and we have apple orchards, so I suspect it is possible.
I would rather not touch that wheat essentially. Pretty sure there is wheat, where Kent is, I'll be sure to check though.

Kent is known as the Garden county of England, so the apples would fit better in Kent.

I thought that was Hampshire?

I liked "your" new GEM map, but BOY oh BOY, i cant take the turn times, i am waaaaay to impatient, heck it takes over 20 seconds or so and i am just four techs in:whew::faint:

I was thinking about that earlier, Hydro was posting about spreading resources via trade through the Greatfarmer method, which means most maps need a lot of reworking, wheat is not native to England ( and it was Romans who opened up eats anglia for crop use, and climate change that made East Anglia a net exporter of cerialcrops from Roman Britain to supply the Rhine armies), nor where apples, ducks ( more Romans, who repalced the westy country major inter continetal trade port in the West country by establishing a the new port at Londoninium to break Brittany West country sea commerce) rabbits ( came with Normans, who put vinyards as far north as York) etc.

If you have a copy of the Oxford English history of Roman Britain, or a net search for Butser farms project, they will be of use.

I thought that was Hampshire?


http://www.visitheartofkent.com/site/the-heart-of-kent-the-true-garden-of-england

I was thinking about that earlier, Hydro was posting about spreading resources via trade through the Greatfarmer method, which means most maps need a lot of reworking, wheat is not native to England ( and it was Romans who opened up eats anglia for crop use, and climate change that made East Anglia a net exporter of cerialcrops from Roman Britain to supply the Rhine armies), nor where apples, ducks ( more Romans, who repalced the westy country major inter continetal trade port in the West country by establishing a the new port at Londoninium to break Brittany West country sea commerce) rabbits ( came with Normans, who put vinyards as far north as York) etc.

If you have a copy of the Oxford English history of Roman Britain, or a net search for Butser farms project, they will be of use.

I'm quite aware that a LOT of the resources present in England weren't there until they were brought along, however I don't think its feasible to not include them for the English player. One of which is the illusive apple resource which I believe is native to the area around Anatolia, which I doubt the English player will see for a LONG time. Even then you would still need the apple resource for the English culture.

I liked "your" new GEM map, but BOY oh BOY, i cant take the turn times, i am waaaaay to impatient, heck it takes over 20 seconds or so and i am just four techs in:whew::faint:

Maybe I should make a 'lighter' civilization map?
Granted it won't solve the problem that it will have mid to late game as the units pile up and the civilizations become bigger.

I'm quite aware that a LOT of the resources present in England weren't there until they were brought along, however I don't think its feasible to not include them for the English player. One of which is the illusive apple resource which I believe is native to the area around Anatolia, which I doubt the English player will see for a LONG time. Even then you would still need the apple resource for the English culture.

Well thats because English culture is taken from a time period incompatable with 12000 bce start, one that has apples in England and an English identity, which is why i wrote, maps will need reworking.

Well thats because English culture is taken from a time period incompatable with 12000 bce start, one that has apples in England and an English identity, which is why i wrote, maps will need reworking.

Right now I'm trying my best to make the resource spread 'Pre Columbian', which should allow the apples to be in England as they are currently. Really, I'm not much on balancng England, I think they should be fine. (I was mor einterested if anyone has a problem with me moving the apple to another place, since it is already there and adding in the deer.)

I'm more concerned about areas such as North America, how the Middle East and Europe now fair as well as Asia and Africa. England should be able to build up quite the solid infrastructure, and it is quite tempting to place a barbarian city in Scotland and Hokkaido in order to put early pressure on the English and Japanese.

Maybe I should make a 'lighter' civilization map?
Granted it won't solve the problem that it will have mid to late game as the units pile up and the civilizations become bigger.

Nah, thats not the problem, its really the "size" of the map, its jut WAY to BIG. I can run 49 civs no problem, on a smaller map, so it isnt the civs.

Each barb city ( when set at start) is a seperate civ and GEM is already unplayable due to the number of civs/map size,in play so adding more start barbs is only hurting game performence, you may just as well put in 2 more civs to start with and be done with it.

Deer placement, has a large number of animals + Neanderthals spawn from it, ive placed it often times for civ, so the first culture expanding fails to spread to it, so it spawns units, untill second round of expansion before comming into culture capture, something to consider if your only palcing one deer in England.

Each barb city ( when set at start) is a seperate civ and GEM is already unplayable due to the number of civs/map size,in play so adding more start barbs is only hurting game performence, you may just as well put in 2 more civs to start with and be done with it.

Deer placement, has a large number of animals + Neanderthals spawn from it, ive placed it often times for civ, so the first culture expanding fails to spread to it, so it spawns units, untill second round of expansion before comming into culture capture, something to consider if your only palcing one deer in England.

If I recall the deer placement would put it squarely within the founding sphere of London, if not the next round up.

I can't do much about the 'size' of the map, as much as it hurts to say that, but it is the GEM for a reason. :(

Yes i recall that the deer starts inside, which helps in one way and hinders in another.

The latest Gem does not open for me in V22, but ill look at England in V21 over the weekend, what i *think* would work better is a start in the west country for the English, that allows London as second city, coupled with the Parisi tribe not being the start of Frances civilization. ( looked it up Henry VIII established vast Pippen orchards in Kent to replace depleted Norman stocks of apples that had come via scily in the crusade era, so the apple orchard buidling could repalce the apple resource)

You have the oposite issue, i want Rome to expand to Etruscany, and it refuses for hundreds of turns to even consider attacking it, unless i put an Etruscian AI city there, give AI free kills against barbs, and Rome takes it quick as you like.

Hi Acularius, somehow the v22 download that I got, is missing the start location data of many civs.

Only teams 0, 1, 6, 13, 17, 18 and 38 do have them.

So at least one of the links in this subforum is pointing to a corrupted file. Btw. it's not the link in your OP in this thread.

Hi Acularius, somehow the v22 download that I got, is missing the start location data of many civs.

Only teams 0, 1, 6, 13, 17, 18 and 38 do have them.

So at least one of the links in this subforum is pointing to a corrupted file. Btw. it's not the link in your OP in this thread.

Yeah, the link in that one fourm is an older version. I've posted a version on the OP section of this topic, but a similar problem happened with my 5 civ start.

I haven't updated in a while since I tend to enjoy massive updates over several tiny ones.

The biggest problem at the moment is the location of the fabled apple in England.:D

As far as I can tell the reason for the early game conquest sprees is that the AI considers rock throwers to be ample defense and sends its clubmen to explore, yet clubmen beat rockthrowers even with their city defense bonus, on the Earth 18 map as Rome I wiped out France and Germany (Celtia?) very early through this method.

EDIT: I also think Australia (I'm Aussie) should be removed and replaced with Maori's or a Pacific Islander tribe, its only fair considering the Dutch and Americans arn't in the pre-columbian scenario either.

middle east and europe are way too crowded. Can you put in malasia, brasil & maybe another african civ and delete some others like celts, portugal, jewish one, babylon and maybe even holy rome

also is it possible to give a random option, as in randomly pick your civ?

Also how about ancient era start?

middle east and europe are way too crowded. Can you put in malasia, brasil & maybe another african civ and delete some others like celts, portugal, jewish one, babylon and maybe even holy rome

also is it possible to give a random option, as in randomly pick your civ?

Also how about ancient era start?

After exam crunch time I'll do some more map modding. Right now I can say a definite 'no' to Brazil by virtue that it was a Post Columbian civilization.

As for Malaysia, I'll have to take a look at them.
I haven't updated C2C in a while, so I can't comment on Malaysia, but that one is a possibility.

As for an extra civ in Africa, would love to do that. Take a away a civ in Europe. Possibly the Holy Roman Empire.

As for the ancient era start? I think that option is availiable if you go through 'Custom Scenarios' and choose that option.

@Minigrinch: At the time when I put Australia in, it was more to counter the rampant barbarism in the area, and the Aboriginal tribe was put to counter balance the Australians so they don't become a world super power being alone on a continent.

I will consider the Maori, again I haven't looked at the newest C2C yet, but it will largely depend on the AI's ability to cope with being a island civilization in an area that is pretty tough to build a civlization on, aside from simple colonialism.

As for the African civ thing, if there is a new one, it will probably be thrown in, DEFINITELY if it starts around the Niger-Congo area. It might take pressure off the Egyptians from the barbarian hordes.

The Celts, Pheonicians, and Portuguese are definitely staying though. These were busy areas and they DEFINITELY deserve to stay. If you are going to play in Europe and the Middle East, expect a lot of militaristic opportunities.

Perhaps a good alternative would be an Indonesian or Papua New Guinean tribe, both lands are quite managable even by the AI, and it would allow a second Oceanian pre-columbian civ that would have a high chance of expanding into Australia. That would mean you could also move the Aborigines to a more optimal starting location, there current one isn't exactly as good as what most other nation get.

it defaults to prehistoric and you can't change it. I spent some time and deleted a few civs and put on in new zealand, one in malasia, one in south africa and moved a couple around like put hunnia way east and russia more east too, i don't really care about historical accuracy or any of that, just want to give civs more fairness in terms of space. What happens is all of europe and middle east become retarded and stay on 1 city forever while others like china and mongols and russia and zulus get 20 cities.

I moved or deleted greece, celts, 3 from middle east, portugal oh and i put siam in malasia eithere khmer or siam ends up dead or stuck on 1 city forever.

it defaults to prehistoric and you can't change it. I spent some time and deleted a few civs and put on in new zealand, one in malasia, one in south africa and moved a couple around like put hunnia way east and russia more east too, i don't really care about historical accuracy or any of that, just want to give civs more fairness in terms of space. What happens is all of europe and middle east become retarded and stay on 1 city forever while others like china and mongols and russia and zulus get 20 cities.

I moved or deleted greece, celts, 3 from middle east, portugal oh and i put siam in malasia eithere khmer or siam ends up dead or stuck on 1 city forever.

In Indochina, one is suppose to conquer the other, and that's my view with a lot of the civs with 'minor civs' and 'no city razing' you are suppose to go out into the world and try some early land grabs.

I've seen Portugal, for example conquer Iberia, and then the area of France before promptly collapsing, leaving a fairly unified 'French' (Brazil) nation in France.

The Middle East is pretty good that way, until they start conquering one another and then you will notice a super power coming out of the Middle East.

As for China, if they don't survive the initial barbarian onslaught, they are doomed for some slow expansion.

Maybe my preference is for a more militaristic game. I'll have to ponder this.

Think im going to have to restart again, the problem is the AI does not expand!! Its pissing me off :lol: Im on over 10 cities and over 50% of the AI is on 1 city. I've never had this problem before, im not sure if its just this map or something recent but for some reason the AI is just refusing to expand.

I even went in and manually gifted all the civs with 1 city 3 free settlers but they just put the settlers inside there city and went back to sleep building research.

Also i think in terms of war the AI is opportunistic they don't often willingly try to wear the opponent down who has a similar power value. They rather get stuck in a sort of cold war arms buildup, both massing units inside there city until they have a clear advantage, the problem is this never happens since both are on 1 city!!

Think im going to have to restart again, the problem is the AI does not expand!! Its pissing me off :lol: Im on over 10 cities and over 50% of the AI is on 1 city. I've never had this problem before, im not sure if its just this map or something recent but for some reason the AI is just refusing to expand.

I even went in and manually gifted all the civs with 1 city 3 free settlers but they just put the settlers inside there city and went back to sleep building research.

Also i think in terms of war the AI is opportunistic they don't often willingly try to wear the opponent down who has a similar power value. They rather get stuck in a sort of cold war arms buildup, both massing units inside there city until they have a clear advantage, the problem is this never happens since both are on 1 city!!

See other posts. Theer is clearly a bug. I just need a save with some description pointing me at some AI not using its settler(s)

Hmm, the AI not using its settlers, I don't have any saves on hand, but Sgtclick, can you send Koshling a copy of that save?

I can't do anything about the AI, I only know how to work with the map and can only 'coax' the AI into a general expansion by making decent city sites for it to expand into. Past that I have no control over its, tactics, diplomacy or defensive measures. :(

I can only try to convince it that this is a 'good idea'.

Hmm, the AI not using its settlers, I don't have any saves on hand, but Sgtclick, can you send Koshling a copy of that save?

I can't do anything about the AI, I only know how to work with the map and can only 'coax' the AI into a general expansion by making decent city sites for it to expand into. Past that I have no control over its, tactics, diplomacy or defensive measures. :(

I can only try to convince it that this is a 'good idea'.

It's fixed.

Going over the new SVN now, going to see the new Civ, already liking the addition of the CONGOLESE! Needed someone in that area.

I'll probably post my ideas in the opening topic shortly, but I'll post my ideas on the new things I discover here as well.

Edit: I'll probably go about removing the HRE and Australia, the former to free up room in Europe and the latter because I have a new sleuth of civs to throw into Oceania.
I don't think I see any new placeable resources, but I did notice a fair bit of new 'culture' resources like the welsh, and I don't think I have any clam resource plots near Wales so I'll have to take this into consideration. I haven't looked at the others, but that one stuck out at me.

As for the new civilizatios, from what I can tell...
-Add the Ainu (Hokkaido, Northern Japan)
Reason, to spice up Japan and to give an early place for expansion.

-Add Cherokee (Area to be decided)
Reason: Another nation to play in North America, might allow for more surviving nations against barbarian hordes.

- Add Congolese (Congo area, of course. :D)
Reason: I want a civ in this area, for the longest time I have dreamed it so.

-Add Philipines (Philipine islands)
Reason: Fill up the islands

-Add Maori (Papua New guinea?)
Another island nation against the Philipines and Aboriginals...

-Add Tibetans (Tibet)
Reason: Need someone to put pressure on China other than the Mongols and Koreans, and this time it comes from the South West.
Collarary: Might need to tweak the terrain in Tibet and make it plains, I don't think it was quite as inhospitable as it is portrayed, the land did produce a challenge to conquer and caused havoc to its surroundings from wha tI recall.

-Changes, Native Americans to Sioux, keep the same location (?)

- Possibles, Add the Navajo and the Inuit (was thinking around British Columbia or Alaska) I'm leaning towards adding the Inuit over the Navajo, might go with both.

Removals, As discussed.
HRE: Germany and the HRE tend to occupy the same area, however I'm opting to remove the HRE since Germany tends to represent the 'Germanic' peoples in the area, from its beginnings to modernity.
Australia: Never fit the criteria for Pre Columbian, so it was a matter of time until its removal. With more Oceanic civilizations in the area, I'm confident of doing it now.





Done my edit, these were just my initial thoughts after looking through the list, if someone spots something wrong or knows of a new placeable resource that I may have overlooked, do tell me.

Going over the new SVN now, going to see the new Civ, already liking the addition of the CONGOLESE! Needed someone in that area.

I'll probably post my ideas in the opening topic shortly, but I'll post my ideas on the new things I discover here as well.

Edit: I'll probably go about removing the HRE and Australia, the former to free up room in Europe and the latter because I have a new sleuth of civs to throw into Oceania.
I don't think I see any new placeable resources, but I did notice a fair bit of new 'culture' resources like the welsh, and I don't think I have any clam resource plots near Wales so I'll have to take this into consideration. I haven't looked at the others, but that one stuck out at me.

As for the new civilizatios, from what I can tell...
-Add the Ainu (Hokkaido, Northern Japan)
Reason, to spice up Japan and to give an early place for expansion.

-Add Cherokee (Area to be decided)
Reason: Another nation to play in North America, might allow for more surviving nations against barbarian hordes.

- Add Congolese (Congo area, of course. :D)
Reason: I want a civ in this area, for the longest time I have dreamed it so.

-Add Philipines (Philipine islands)
Reason: Fill up the islands

-Add Maori (Papua New guinea?)
Another island nation against the Philipines and Aboriginals...

-Add Tibetans (Tibet)
Reason: Need someone to put pressure on China other than the Mongols and Koreans, and this time it comes from the South West.
Collarary: Might need to tweak the terrain in Tibet and make it plains, I don't think it was quite as inhospitable as it is portrayed, the land did produce a challenge to conquer and caused havoc to its surroundings from wha tI recall.

-Changes, Native Americans to Sioux, keep the same location (?)

- Possibles, Add the Navajo and the Inuit (was thinking around British Columbia or Alaska) I'm leaning towards adding the Inuit over the Navajo, might go with both.

Removals, As discussed.
HRE: Germany and the HRE tend to occupy the same area, however I'm opting to remove the HRE since Germany tends to represent the 'Germanic' peoples in the area, from its beginnings to modernity.
Australia: Never fit the criteria for Pre Columbian, so it was a matter of time until its removal. With more Oceanic civilizations in the area, I'm confident of doing it now.





Done my edit, these were just my initial thoughts after looking through the list, if someone spots something wrong or knows of a new placeable resource that I may have overlooked, do tell me.

Is the latest version posted yet (or uploaded on the SVN)? File dates in the RAR in the head post are several weeks ago...

Is the latest version posted yet (or uploaded on the SVN)? File dates in the RAR in the head post are several weeks ago...

It was the latest thing my laptop updated to, out of the repository.

So unless something radical happened to that, I just assume it is the 'latest' version.

If I'm wrong, please forgive me. XD

Edit: Rev 2311 from what I can tell.

It was the latest thing my laptop updated to, out of the repository.

So unless something radical happened to that, I just assume it is the 'latest' version.

If I'm wrong, please forgive me. XD

Edit: Rev 2311 from what I can tell.

No, I mean latest GEM, not latest C2C...? Or is it still only on your machine while you finish editing/testing?

No, I mean latest GEM, not latest C2C...? Or is it still only on your machine while you finish editing/testing?

AH! I haven't updated it yet, probably won't until after exams.
I'm also noticing an increase in game speed (smaller wait in between turns) with the new option, just fired up a new game to test.

I just wanted opinions on the new changes I will be doing, or might no do. I tend to enjoy discussing them. XD

I haven't started editing or testing, I prefer big updates, and although we are close to my 'big update' threshhold, I will probably wait until after exam season.

I do have the fixed version of the 5 civ start, but I haven't uploaded it mainly because I think people prefer the 'no preset' and 'Pre Columbian' starts.

What do you think of making Tibet more habitable? Same with the Mexican plateau?

Edit: I also finally update my SVN folder today, so these were just my initial thoughts and ideas after seeing all the changes. (I haven't really looked since last time.)

AH! I haven't updated it yet, probably won't until after exams.
I'm also noticing an increase in game speed (smaller wait in between turns) with the new option, just fired up a new game to test.

I just wanted opinions on the new changes I will be doing, or might no do. I tend to enjoy discussing them. XD

I haven't started editing or testing, I prefer big updates, and although we are close to my 'big update' threshhold, I will probably wait until after exam season.

I do have the fixed version of the 5 civ start, but I haven't uploaded it mainly because I think people prefer the 'no preset' and 'Pre Columbian' starts.

What do you think of making Tibet more habitable? Same with the Mexican plateau?

Edit: I also finally update my SVN folder today, so these were just my initial thoughts and ideas after seeing all the changes. (I haven't really looked since last time.)

Ok no problem. Just wanted to make sure I'm using the latest available for my own play testing. Glad you like the new option - it really helps on big maps, especially in the early part of the game :)

Ok no problem. Just wanted to make sure I'm using the latest available for my own play testing. Glad you like the new option - it really helps on big maps, especially in the early part of the game :)

I really do like that option, so far the early game has had some noticeable improvements in game speed. By about 2 seconds... now that may sound silly, but early gameplay between turns was around 5 seconds about 10-20 turns in and the game started 'going'.

I'm hoping it improves mid to late game play as well.

As for the latest version, what I post in the OP of this thread is the most up to date version at ALL times, aside from the minor descrepancy that the 5 civ map has some starting location bugs. XD Whereas I have the fixed version of it unhosted.

Can you add ( replace all the gem resources on the map with diamond/sapphire/ruby etc) to your to do list please) :)

Can you add ( replace all the gem resources on the map with diamond/sapphire/ruby etc) to your to do list please) :)

Why do I always forget about those silly gems. XD
I'll get right on it.

Edit: Also, thoughts and opinions on the other changes?

Proposed changes sound good. I still think you definately need to remove Sumeria or Babylon or Phoenicians, imma delete at least one of them whenever i use the map anyway. The whole of the middle east is still stuck in prehistoric while others are in classical because its too cramped.

Also I hope your not planning on putting that japanese guy on the same island as japan? Japan already is a no hoper coz he's trapped with no room, they will need some more land tiles and lots more resources if you do. Also the Ottomans get way too much space and i think Attila should go to the right of them in between mongols and ottoman for the sake of game balance. I think removing HRE is a good move but would still like you to remove another one, either celts spain or port needs to go. Up to you.. I will delete one when i play either way. Oh and im playing mongols this game and im lucky china died to locusts early coz my land is really bad in terms of north and west.. Even east is pretty bad, maybe 2-3 good spots. I have defeated korea so im lucky this game but the pressure is definately on to take out either korea or china so you can actually get some decent land. However, my people have been rioting so much because of the distance from my cap..

Proposed changes sound good. I still think you definately need to remove Sumeria or Babylon or Phoenicians, imma delete at least one of them whenever i use the map anyway. The whole of the middle east is still stuck in prehistoric while others are in classical because its too cramped.

Also I hope your not planning on putting that japanese guy on the same island as japan? Japan already is a no hoper coz he's trapped with no room, they will need some more land tiles and lots more resources if you do. Also the Ottomans get way too much space and i think Attila should go to the right of them in between mongols and ottoman for the sake of game balance. I think removing HRE is a good move but would still like you to remove another one, either celts spain or port needs to go. Up to you.. I will delete one when i play either way. Oh and im playing mongols this game and im lucky china died to locusts early coz my land is really bad in terms of north and west.. Even east is pretty bad, maybe 2-3 good spots. I have defeated korea so im lucky this game but the pressure is definately on to take out either korea or china so you can actually get some decent land. However, my people have been rioting so much because of the distance from my cap..


I have 'minor civs' on, so I tend to think that Japan needs an area of early expansion to go to, and the Ainu are a perfect bunch to throw into Northern Japan.

On that same note, I tend to make notes and balances in relations to have 'minor civs' on, so the Celts, and Portuguese make sense as an early source of expansion, similar to the 'barb city' start option.

As for the Middle East, I rather like it, it makes a whole lot of sense to me, its suppose to be a rather militarily active area...
As for the Ottomons, they tend to be eaten alive by the barbarians, or at least they were in my latest game.

As for the Celts, I would probably keep them before removing France, since the Celts pre date the French. Although again, I'll probably kep them seeing as they provide early sources of expansion if you play you cards right. I usually see Portugal crush Spain fairly often. I wonder what would happen in Madrid started on a hill, would that solve the issue.

Also, what settings do you play with and at what difficulty?

I need to know. So I can judge properly.

I agree to everything you said, Acu. And regarding Celts, Portugese and Middle East: it's always a possibility that one of the close antions actually wins against its close neighbour, after a while so many small make one strong after a while.
Slick I think your suggestions are motivated in clearing out the "minor civs~" and "stacks not attack bugs" in previous SVN versions. But with the better AI now in place for new games everything will be fine. Btw try to have the AI start with 2 settlers (deity) its the most fun, especially like europe tries to build 2cnd cities^^ It's actually easier for you to play deity cause AI doesn't defend secound cities so well. Really, lot of opportunities on this level.

Looking forward for the Ainu!!! I like to play with Japs (or Ainu then)^^ Reminds me of the game Total War Shogun 2 and Fall of the Samurai, where you have campaigns on japanese map.

I restarted a game with the same settings as before (so start as minors on) as England starting at emporer, with increasing difficulty. I did this. Ages days ago just after I fixed the major ai issues.

This time I am have a MUCH harder time than I did before. The AI civs are quite active, and both the French and celts were wiped out in the first few hundred turns (I was quite glad to be on the other side of the channel then!). By the time I could get to raft building (which I pretty much beelined, apart from cultural identity to get elder council) Ireland was occupied by a barbarian city and about 15 units! Fortunately I was able to get a toe hold in what would have been France. My beachhead city got attacked fairly heavily, but I was able to survive, and got my first great command in the process, which is starting to ease the situation. I just managed to get my first hunter past the wall of civilizations to the east and into relatively empty territory, so I'm hoping the subdues will now start to flow ( zero herds so far).

The one thing that made this game tenable (though an intestine fight to get started) was that the AI razed paris (and Bibract, and Madrid) rather than occupy them.

I'll be tweaking the AIs decision logic for when to raze in response to this game, since it was clearly a bad decision, espeically when they had no means to found cities except through conquest at the time (at least assuming they were not all still size one when it happened which I guess is possible).

I restarted a game with the same settings as before (so start as minors on) as England starting at emporer, with increasing difficulty. I did this. Ages days ago just after I fixed the major ai issues.

This time I am have a MUCH harder time than I did before. The AI civs are quite active, and both the French and celts were wiped out in the first few hundred turns (I was quite glad to be on the other side of the channel then!). By the time I could get to raft building (which I pretty much beelined, apart from cultural identity to get elder council) Ireland was occupied by a barbarian city and about 15 units! Fortunately I was able to get a toe hold in what would have been France. My beachhead city got attacked fairly heavily, but I was able to survive, and got my first great command in the process, which is starting to ease the situation. I just managed to get my first hunter past the wall of civilizations to the east and into relatively empty territory, so I'm hoping the subdues will now start to flow ( zero herds so far).

The one thing that made this game tenable (though an intestine fight to get started) was that the AI razed paris (and Bibract, and Madrid) rather than occupy them.

I'll be tweaking the AIs decision logic for when to raze in response to this game, since it was clearly a bad decision, espeically when they had no means to found cities except through conquest at the time (at least assuming they were not all still size one when it happened which I guess is possible).

The default option is to 'razing cities' off, which should make Europe rather fluid early game until they get to the high enough tech to hold that much land.

It is good that the map is working better.

I've had a China game... and my first Great General is essentially Master of the field... and his 3 stone axemen (which I beelined like a baws) with great generals attached.
That was a new game though after the one you fixed.

I managed to take a barbarian city that was accurately named, Uighur by coincidence of the area I took. Eventually I started working my 2 tier tiles because the locust are rather OP, and wrecked havoc anywhere my Great general could not reach... eventually I settled 2 additional cities and realized a penalty on the 4th. Which is easy to fix.

Uber Barbarian death stacks though, were insane... I'll have to play with 'raging barbarians off' they are just TOO raging. XD

The default option is to 'razing cities' off, which should make Europe rather fluid early game until they get to the high enough tech to hold that much land.It is good that the map is working better.

I saw you made it default but on GEM I need to raze cities in later eras, so I turned it off.

@Koshling is there a possibility to have 'razing cities off' as BUG option? Could be nice to turn 'razing cities' on once ancient begins and real cities evolve.

In the new nomad start there wouldn't be early cities to be razed anyway, just women to be stolen from some tents ---> a pillaged and razed enemy camp might not only give tech but also population (women) and some % of food the camp had in store...


Uber Barbarian death stacks though, were insane... I'll have to play with 'raging barbarians off' they are just TOO raging. XD

yeah had like 75 units in one. I think they should trigger at 25 and in later eras at 50 to go on a rampage.

My settings are immortal, no start as minor, city razing is allowed, raging off, tech brokering off, no barb civs.
In terms of starting as minor, I see that it will cause more wars (obviously) but the whole of the middle east and europe is in war anyway, and actually they tend to gang up when start as minor is off which is better for creating the '1 power' kinda thing. I just don't like start as minor, writing is just too far away, its taken me like 1100 turns to get to writing this game, i can't imagine waiting that long for peace- would be a nightmare.
Hey koshling i realised another exploit; friendly razing definately needs to be off, i have it off but this game i managed to sell furs to mali for 3 nice techs coz he has 17 cities while still on despotism. (no city limits) Barbs then came over and were headed for my furs so i let them raze it since I had a revolution at this time and 3 of my cities became Canadian :) I felt like taking advantage of the AI :lol:
Anyways, they pillaged the furs, i rebuilt it and got another 2 techs off mali the desperado.
Obviously being able to pillage resources like this is pretty exploitative. Pillaging seed farms to make farms etc is obviously a bit of a cheat. Also was thinking if the trade is broken because of pillaging even if its because of barbs maybe there should b a diplomacy penalty?

My settings are immortal, no start as minor, city razing is allowed, raging off, tech brokering off, no barb civs.
In terms of starting as minor, I see that it will cause more wars (obviously) but the whole of the middle east and europe is in war anyway, and actually they tend to gang up when start as minor is off which is better for creating the '1 power' kinda thing. I just don't like start as minor, writing is just too far away, its taken me like 1100 turns to get to writing this game, i can't imagine waiting that long for peace- would be a nightmare.
Hey koshling i realised another exploit; friendly razing definately needs to be off, i have it off but this game i managed to sell furs to mali for 3 nice techs coz he has 17 cities while still on despotism. (no city limits) Barbs then came over and were headed for my furs so i let them raze it since I had a revolution at this time and 3 of my cities became Canadian :) I felt like taking advantage of the AI :lol:
Anyways, they pillaged the furs, i rebuilt it and got another 2 techs off mali the desperado.
Obviously being able to pillage resources like this is pretty exploitative. Pillaging seed farms to make farms etc is obviously a bit of a cheat. Also was thinking if the trade is broken because of pillaging even if its because of barbs maybe there should b a diplomacy penalty?

I don't see how its a cheat that barbs pillaged and then you were able to re-tarde really. That's just bad luck for your trading partner. If you'd pillaged yourself though then I agree that would be an exploit (to be clear - you are saying you didn't do this, but posted to raise concern that you COULD have??)

Regarding pillaging seed farms to make farms - it's cheesy! However, to me it's entirely wrong that you cannot use a worker to upgrade a seed farm to a farm explicitly, rather than waiting for it to naturally upgrade. I think we should fix THAT, at which point the pillage option will be irrelevent.

I don't see how its a cheat that barbs pillaged and then you were able to re-tarde really. That's just bad luck for your trading partner. If you'd pillaged yourself though then I agree that would be an exploit (to be clear - you are saying you didn't do this, but posted to raise concern that you COULD have??)

Koshling, if you have a pig and you sign a deal to sell the meat for a certain date,
then a thief steals your pig or barbarically eats it down to its bones, the partner you promised the pig to will show you the deal and want compensation. With no insurance you'd to pay. Bad luck for you. Which brings me to the idea: upon discovering Insurance, you could have a little option in the negotiation window: 'insure deal'.

Deals would become 5-15% more expansive (random chance) but when a tradroute is broken because of war, cutting off goods you exported or if you manage to lose exported res due to natural disasters/pillaging, you would not have to pay compensation.

Regarding pillaging seed farms to make farms - it's cheesy! However, to me it's entirely wrong that you cannot use a worker to upgrade a seed farm to a farm explicitly, rather than waiting for it to naturally upgrade. I think we should fix THAT, at which point the pillage option will be irrelevent.

Nice, can't the workers 'upgrade turns' be the difference between old and new improvement?
A worker would need X turns for Seed Camp, Y turns for Farm, so upgrade turns=Y-X

Btw Koshling, sry for repeating it: in my last post in this thread I asked you if
'razing cities off' would be able to become a bug option, that can be activated and deactivated in game? I think I would deactivate it from ancient on but not earlier, as I don't want the capitals to be razed early.

Btw Koshling, sry for repeating it: in my last post in this thread I asked you if
'razing cities off' would be able to become a bug option, that can be activated and deactivated in game? I think I would deactivate it from ancient on but not earlier, as I don't want the capitals to be razed early.

Can't see why not.

I don't see how its a cheat that barbs pillaged and then you were able to re-tarde really. That's just bad luck for your trading partner. If you'd pillaged yourself though then I agree that would be an exploit (to be clear - you are saying you didn't do this, but posted to raise concern that you COULD have??)

Regarding pillaging seed farms to make farms - it's cheesy! However, to me it's entirely wrong that you cannot use a worker to upgrade a seed farm to a farm explicitly, rather than waiting for it to naturally upgrade. I think we should fix THAT, at which point the pillage option will be irrelevent.

Nevermind. Just thought when trade is broken there should be a penalty, its not impossible to allow barbs to pillage certain improves.. (please follow me mr. barbarian right over here.. look some lovely furs- don't they look nice :lol: )
Which is essentially what i did this game.

Nevermind. Just thought when trade is broken there should be a penalty, its not impossible to allow barbs to pillage certain improves.. (please follow me mr. barbarian right over here.. look some lovely furs- don't they look nice :lol: )
Which is essentially what i did this game.

Well, yes, but it's a second-order cheat, so less significant than the direct self-pillage. However, I take your point.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm here's a map for diamond, gold & silver Acularius. So looks like north & south america has diamond gold & silver only. Nothing in europe then gold in ottoman land and nothing in middle east. Hope this helps.

Sapphire: Sapphires are mined mainly from alluvial deposits. Sri Lanka, Madagascar, Thailand and Myanmar are the countries that mine Sapphires. The leading producer of Sapphire is Australia. Other countries that produce Sapphire are India, Tanzania, Pakistan and New South Wales etc. Actually this is wrong, **Prior to the opening of the Ilakaka mines, Australia was the largest producer of sapphires (such as in 1987).[21] Madagascar is the world leader in sapphire production (as of 2007) specifically its deposits in and around the town of Ilakakascar.

Ruby: Rubies are primarily mined in Africa, Asia, Australia, Greenland, Madagascar and North Carolina. Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Kenya are the other countries where Rubies can be found. The fascinating red color of the Burmese Rubies are compared and described as “pigeon’s blood” and are commonly known as “Mogok” Rubies.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm here's a map for diamond, gold & silver Acularius. So looks like north & south america has diamond gold & silver only. Nothing in europe then gold in ottoman land and nothing in middle east. Hope this helps.

Sapphire: Sapphires are mined mainly from alluvial deposits. Sri Lanka, Madagascar, Thailand and Myanmar are the countries that mine Sapphires. The leading producer of Sapphire is Australia. Other countries that produce Sapphire are India, Tanzania, Pakistan and New South Wales etc. Actually this is wrong, **Prior to the opening of the Ilakaka mines, Australia was the largest producer of sapphires (such as in 1987).[21] Madagascar is the world leader in sapphire production (as of 2007) specifically its deposits in and around the town of Ilakakascar.

Ruby: Rubies are primarily mined in Africa, Asia, Australia, Greenland, Madagascar and North Carolina. Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Kenya are the other countries where Rubies can be found. The fascinating red color of the Burmese Rubies are compared and described as “pigeon’s blood” and are commonly known as “Mogok” Rubies.

Judging by those sources, I did the sapphires and rubies right. Roughly, some might be off a spot, like Madagascar because the same spot also had something else.

Also, after some research, Tibet was actually rather fertile in its southern portion. *The River District* So there will be hope for the Tibetan player. I'm hoping to get a new map out tomorrow.
It will be SVN only unfortunately though until the next version of C2C is released.

I really think this mod could use some of the balance changes that GEM has, such as the 1 base hammer on coast, and an extra base movement point. The extra food from merchants probably isn't necessary with the strength or farms and some of the food buildings in C2C though, but the extra hammers especially would help colonise the islands and make some of the productionless coastal areas a bit more AI friendly.

Also that mineral map of the world is modern, don't forget many precious materials were mined in Europe in earlier times, let alone places like SE Australia, west coast America and the like.

map done yet?? :)

map done yet?? :)

Exams, so I've been rather too optimistic in my projections. That and the map is never truly done, just updated. Which is the best I can promise at any given time. XD

I apologize in advance. XD
It will be done though.

Hopefully between my last exam (tomorrow, April 23rd) and my birthday (Friday April 27th) which doesn't mean much past 19 but it still good to celebrate among family and friends.

no worries, its just you got my juices flowing when you said tomorrow, you shouldn't get me excited like that :)

I'm creating a REALLY big map... If anyone is interested.
It's in the works at the moment only though.

how much bigger than gigantic? %wise would you say, will it work ok?

I'm creating a REALLY big map... If anyone is interested.
It's in the works at the moment only though.

FYI - internal game assumptions constrain max linear dimension (x or y) to be no more than 255.

FYI - internal game assumptions constrain max linear dimension (x or y) to be no more than 255.

I've recently learnt this, which is a shame because I had Europe looking pretty nice or at least the outline, as well as strching out to Alaska.

Any way I can expand that, or is it a limitation of the Civilization 4 engine?

I've recently learnt this, which is a shame because I had Europe looking pretty nice or at least the outline, as well as strching out to Alaska.

Any way I can expand that, or is it a limitation of the Civilization 4 engine?

Provided the total number of plots doesn't go above 65535 we should be able to expand a linear dimension. More than 65535 plots would be rather difficult though.

Having said that however, the game engine is pretty crappy at scale anyway in terms of its memory usage. Because we're limitted (again by the Civ4 engine) to a 32 bit process we're pushing the limits really even at GEM size, once the game gets developed.

Going much over GEM in size without a shifting of C2C onto some other platform than the Civ4 engine is likely to break things, in terms of memory and perofmrmancd if nothing else. We might squeeze a little more out of it, but the headroom is gettign very limitted.

Provided the total number of plots doesn't go above 65535 we should be able to expand a linear dimension. More than 65535 plots would be rather difficult though.

Having said that however, the game engine is pretty crappy at scale anyway in terms of its memory usage. Because we're limitted (again by the Civ4 engine) to a 32 bit process we're pushing the limits really even at GEM size, once the game gets developed.

Going much over GEM in size without a shifting of C2C onto some other platform than the Civ4 engine is likely to break things, in terms of memory and perofmrmancd if nothing else. We might squeeze a little more out of it, but the headroom is gettign very limitted.

That's rather depressing. I was hoping to make a bigger map.

Might as well keep tweaking GEM then.

yes plz! :)

That's rather depressing. I was hoping to make a bigger map.

Might as well keep tweaking GEM then.

Just wanted to say that you're doing an awesome job with GEM :) It's easily the most enjoyable map especially because it works so well together with the mod.
I really love the resource richness and possibility to "access everything", which is something I find very lacking on random maps.

Just wanted to say that you're doing an awesome job with GEM :) It's easily the most enjoyable map especially because it works so well together with the mod.
I really love the resource richness and possibility to "access everything", which is something I find very lacking on random maps.

Main motivation, I love dealing with the map to be honest, and I do like 'random' game, but I enjoy the richness of GEM.

Its the driving factor.

I have a question, for the "+1 happiness on this continent" buildings, does europe+asia+africa count as 1 continent because they're all connected by land and is the british island considered its own continent for that matter?

I have a question, for the "+1 happiness on this continent" buildings, does europe+asia+africa count as 1 continent because they're all connected by land and is the british island considered its own continent for that matter?

Yes. It's just connected landmass

I have a question, for the "+1 happiness on this continent" buildings, does europe+asia+africa count as 1 continent because they're all connected by land and is the british island considered its own continent for that matter?

It is rather powerful given that situation, and I've been mighty tempted to create a land bridge between England and France.

Granted, is there a good place where I can learn to get mapscripts so I can beef up Japan's and England's starting area?

It is rather powerful given that situation, and I've been mighty tempted to create a land bridge between England and France.

Granted, is there a good place where I can learn to get mapscripts so I can beef up Japan's and England's starting area?

Whether Japan and England need beefed up starting areas is another matter (may well do), but IMO the not-being-the-same-landmass issues for +1 type bonuses is not relevant. If Japan or Engalnd manage to scale their empires they should just move their capitals onto the mainland anyway. If someone else conquers them then they are small off-shoots anyway and not having the extra bonuses there is not a big deal.

Regardless, I strongly urge you NOT to land-bridge them. Having an island start option adds variety

Whether Japan and England need beefed up starting areas is another matter (may well do), but IMO the not-being-the-same-landmass issues for +1 type bonuses is not relevant. If Japan or Engalnd manage to scale their empires they should just move their capitals onto the mainland anyway. If someone else conquers them then they are small off-shoots anyway and not having the extra bonuses there is not a big deal.

Regardless, I strongly urge you NOT to land-bridge them. Having an island start option adds variety

I just toyed with the idea is all. XD
If I was serious about it, I would probably post that in the opening post where I discuss upcoming changes or possibilities.

Another thing on my list of things to do is fix latitude to appear properly in the game.
Can't believe it was sitting right in front of me in the map file. *face enters the palm here*

Edit: Is there a place that can tell me what I need to do to increase, 'hammers' and 'commerce' in tiles surrounding London and Kyoto?
If I figure that out, I might be able to give them a fighting chance.
Even just pointing out a relative tutorial would be nice.

Maybe create a land bridge to Ireland and make island bigger + make isle of man.

For japan expand it to the north like another 8 tiles or something and also give them a bit of an easier route south towards new zealand. Also you could change the tundra in england and maybe get rid of a few mountains in japan in exchange for grassland hills etc

Also you could change the tundra in england

Highland cattle?

I strongly disagree with all these land bridges, for example Ceylon is an absolutely brilliant city spot, it shouldn't be accessable so early, and one of Englands most unique things is that they are in Europe but not in Europe (if that makes sense). England to Ireland could make sense I guess to give them a bit more early expansion.

Maybe create a land bridge to Ireland and make island bigger + make isle of man.


This part is fine with me. Atm England has spots for 4 cities with Ireland 5-6.


For japan expand it to the north like another 8 tiles or something and also give them a bit of an easier route south towards new zealand. Also you could change the tundra in england and maybe get rid of a few mountains in japan in exchange for grassland hills etc

I strongly disagree here. Leave Japan as it is, tile size. Japan has 5 sweet spots and with northern islands, taiwan and phili some more. Ok maybe 1, 2 mountains in the middle might be changed, true.

About the highland cattle: yes, sure^^

Remember he's adding 2 island civs aswell i think.

Remember he's adding 2 island civs aswell i think.

Everything I'm thinking of doing I post in the first post of this thread, keeping it centralized.

Edit: Does anyone know when the next version of C2C is released, I might jut hold off on releasing until that comes out.

no don't do that ;( i want it now :)
I think its like 2 weeks away.

Acu, I really don't understand why you want big releases. When you were afk for a few weeks I did the DRJ_revisited version of your old GEM, I only added a few res and changed mexican plateau and stuff, but at least some people could play the map better in the meantime.
So what I want to say is that even if you changed just a little stuff, it's worth to change the first attachment, I think.
The time of the big releases is really over, it's like with the SVN vs main download mirror: you can playtest and feedback the new things much better if you update regularly, imho.

The big updates worked while I had university and I could set aside an hour to do huge updates, now that I'm in my 'lull' period, between done exams and summer job, I can do some short burst improvements again.

I'll start up a system of weekly updates, starting with some time today. (I want to game a bit. :P )

Regarding the land bridge for the "+1 on this continent". I just had an idea...would it be possible that there was a terrain tile that is treated as land by the "continent detection" routine, but as a coastal tile by the rest of the game?
I mean it's not something really important and probably overkill just for that use but I was just wondering if it was technological possible :)

Regarding the land bridge for the "+1 on this continent". I just had an idea...would it be possible that there was a terrain tile that is treated as land by the "continent detection" routine, but as a coastal tile by the rest of the game?
I mean it's not something really important and probably overkill just for that use but I was just wondering if it was technological possible :)

Not easily. The concept of 'same landmass' is used in many roles, and if you just changed it for one the other uses would get confused (AI would try to march land units across it and stuff, and get confused when it couldn't)

Note however, that we already have building tags for 'same trade region' which means any trade-connected cities. Some of the buildings that still use same-landmass might be better converted to those.

starting with some time today

your such a tease :mischief:

The big updates worked while I had university and I could set aside an hour to do huge updates, now that I'm in my 'lull' period, between done exams and summer job, I can do some short burst improvements again.

I'll start up a system of weekly updates, starting with some time today. (I want to game a bit. :P )


Did this happen?

Did this happen?

It has, a matter of cleaning things up and making them work. Will be up in a couple of hours, had a set back with the SVN version a while back.

Also, is my SVN bugged or are mushrooms a pink blob.
Think of tacking these around for the happiness bonus it will give, also I'm laying some 'lush' terrain around, notably in China, Southern England, Japan...

Reason for China, seems to be underperforming, or at least in my games it hasn't exactly got very far.

I'll probably turn off Raging Barbarians as well.

Edit: Like Mushrooms, I think 'Natural Gas (I think) is suffering from the pink blob disease.

It has, a matter of cleaning things up and making them work. Will be up in a couple of hours, had a set back with the SVN version a while back.

Also, is my SVN bugged or are mushrooms a pink blob.
Think of tacking these around for the happiness bonus it will give, also I'm laying some 'lush' terrain around, notably in China, Southern England, Japan...

Reason for China, seems to be underperforming, or at least in my games it hasn't exactly got very far.

I'll probably turn off Raging Barbarians as well.

Edit: Like Mushrooms, I think 'Natural Gas (I think) is suffering from the pink blob disease.

Yeh, I think the XML for them is SNAFU atm. Hopefully someone that knows about them will fix it soon.

It has, a matter of cleaning things up and making them work. Will be up in a couple of hours, had a set back with the SVN version a while back.

Also, is my SVN bugged or are mushrooms a pink blob.
Think of tacking these around for the happiness bonus it will give, also I'm laying some 'lush' terrain around, notably in China, Southern England, Japan...

Reason for China, seems to be underperforming, or at least in my games it hasn't exactly got very far.

I'll probably turn off Raging Barbarians as well.

Edit: Like Mushrooms, I think 'Natural Gas (I think) is suffering from the pink blob disease.

The two techleaders in GEM generally are Turks and Malinese.

In my current game I managed to get out of the AI 2 city me 1 city start later than last games due to more techs which means Turks skyrocketed even more so. There must be something done about those two, maybe less good terrain less gold for Mali etc.

Regarding China: yes, they underperform, mostly due to barbs from Tibet and southern China. But threads from Mongols and Koreans as well^^

The two techleaders in GEM generally are Turks and Malinese.

In my current game I managed to get out of the AI 2 city me 1 city start later than last games due to more techs which means Turks skyrocketed even more so. There must be something done about those two, maybe less good terrain less gold for Mali etc.

Regarding China: yes, they underperform, mostly due to barbs from Tibet and southern China. But threads from Mongols and Koreans as well^^
Well, no 2 games are alike, India dominated in the East in my game, from the borders of Persia up to Southern China.

I'm thinking the introduction of the Tibetans should stem the barbarians.
I'm also tuning off the 'raging barbarians as default. Tends to wreck people.

Putting the Cherokee in the areas of the Carolinas for a starting position.

Mushrooms have been placed around, should make for some

In theory everything should work.

Removed the HRE as well as Australia
Moved Aztecs back to original spot.

Added, Ainu (Hokkaido), Cherokee (Carolinas), Congo (Congo), Maori (Papua New Guinea), Philipines (Philipines), Tibet (Tibet)

Terrain changes.
Scotland: Removed mountains, made into plain hills, placed cow there.
England: South East portion made 'lush'.
China Along the Yellow river and the delta, made lush.
Tibet - River district made grassland, and rather fertile. Lake District was made to plains... still tundra floating around.
Mexico Plateau: Made all into plains, might see a force from the Aztecs now, things can change.

Resources:
Mushrooms thrown about... they are pink blobs atm, but they give happiness, RESPECT THE HAPPINESS! :D
Gems all changed, if I missed some, give me a heads up so I may fix it.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

EDIT: I also changed the latitude settings, It looked to me that GEM works with 75 N for the top, and ~60 S for the bottom, so the latitude restrictive buildings SHOULD in theory appear in the right area now.
Originally it was set to 90 both ways.

Maori (Papua New Guinea)

Um why? They live in New Zealand not New Guinea.

Um why? They live in New Zealand not New Guinea.

Might change it to New Zealand, but I figure that New Guinea would be a better start. [Or just remove and live with Super Australia]

I'm essentially treating them as the Oceanic tribe on the other side of the divide and maybe provide challenge against the Aborigines...

Pretty sure the can cross the ocean tiles with the culture, so they have fair claim to the rest of the islands if their tech gets high enough.

In theory everything should work.

Removed the HRE as well as Australia
Moved Aztecs back to original spot.

Added, Ainu (Hokkaido), Cherokee (Carolinas), Congo (Congo), Maori (Papua New Guinea), Philipines (Philipines), Tibet (Tibet)

Terrain changes.
Scotland: Removed mountains, made into plain hills, placed cow there.
England: South East portion made 'lush'.
China Along the Yellow river and the delta, made lush.
Tibet - River district made grassland, and rather fertile. Lake District was made to plains... still tundra floating around.
Mexico Plateau: Made all into plains, might see a force from the Aztecs now, things can change.

Resources:
Mushrooms thrown about... they are pink blobs atm, but they give happiness, RESPECT THE HAPPINESS! :D
Gems all changed, if I missed some, give me a heads up so I may fix it.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

EDIT: I also changed the latitude settings, It looked to me that GEM works with 75 N for the top, and ~60 S for the bottom, so the latitude restrictive buildings SHOULD in theory appear in the right area now.
Originally it was set to 90 both ways.

Boo! No more igloos in Newcastle! ;)

Yeah, no more igloos in Newcastle. :P

I'm hoping that the little tweak produces some results in China, making them 'baws', which would be awesome.

I'm hoping the new Tibet civ cuts down on barbarian hordes from Tibet while putting an additional pressure on India, and China by a smaller degree.

In theory everything should work.

Removed the HRE as well as Australia
Moved Aztecs back to original spot.

Added, Ainu (Hokkaido), Cherokee (Carolinas), Congo (Congo), Maori (Papua New Guinea), Philipines (Philipines), Tibet (Tibet)

Terrain changes.
Scotland: Removed mountains, made into plain hills, placed cow there.
England: South East portion made 'lush'.
China Along the Yellow river and the delta, made lush.
Tibet - River district made grassland, and rather fertile. Lake District was made to plains... still tundra floating around.
Mexico Plateau: Made all into plains, might see a force from the Aztecs now, things can change.

Resources:
Mushrooms thrown about... they are pink blobs atm, but they give happiness, RESPECT THE HAPPINESS! :D
Gems all changed, if I missed some, give me a heads up so I may fix it.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

EDIT: I also changed the latitude settings, It looked to me that GEM works with 75 N for the top, and ~60 S for the bottom, so the latitude restrictive buildings SHOULD in theory appear in the right area now.
Originally it was set to 90 both ways.

Is this version on the SVN? I don't see an update theer since 20th April...?

Opening post, it worked for the SVN as posted.

Version: 3-22-12 works with C2C v22.1
Version: 05-02-12 works with C2C SVN 2467, last I checked.
First 2 lines of the post.

The 5 preset and no preset most likely will work with 22.1, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
However, I know that the SVN has released the new civs over time so the 'Pre-Columbian' scenario will probably not.

Is there a problem that I'm not seeing?

EDIT: Derp!
No, the version is not on the SVN, mainly because I only know how to update my files through the SVN. XD
I'm not well versed enough on how to send in my files.

So the opening post holds the maps in .zip form.
I guess I'll try uploading them into the SVN.

AHOY~! LEARN SOMETHING TIME~!

Edit 2: So, I hit add of the 3 map files, then commit, then it asks for a password. This is where I stop.
I think I had the process correct though.
However I go no further. :P

Edit 4: Also, Huzzah! Mushrooms are all better know thanks to DH (if I read the SVN correctly)

need someone east of russia, north of otto's west of mongols in my opinion, like poland or cech. considering how dense other parts of the map are, seems silly.

Opening post, it worked for the SVN as posted.


First 2 lines of the post.

The 5 preset and no preset most likely will work with 22.1, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
However, I know that the SVN has released the new civs over time so the 'Pre-Columbian' scenario will probably not.

Is there a problem that I'm not seeing?

EDIT: Derp!
No, the version is not on the SVN, mainly because I only know how to update my files through the SVN. XD
I'm not well versed enough on how to send in my files.

So the opening post holds the maps in .zip form.
I guess I'll try uploading them into the SVN.

AHOY~! LEARN SOMETHING TIME~!

Edit 2: So, I hit add of the 3 map files, then commit, then it asks for a password. This is where I stop.
I think I had the process correct though.
However I go no further. :P

Edit 4: Also, Huzzah! Mushrooms are all better know thanks to DH (if I read the SVN correctly)

No. I thought you meant you'd updated it TO the SVN, rather than just uploaded here to work WITH the SVN. My bad. I'll transfer it to the SVN.

Ah, for the love of biscuits...

I missed a single gem resource in Saudi Arabia (might be others).
The resource, after some looking around seems to really coincide with a platinum deposit in the area of Wadi Kamal, along the coast of the Red Sea.

If you want to edit that into you new games with the May 2nd version, that is the only thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb atm.

I apologize for the inconvenience and will update the map on Friday.

Also, discussion on the placement of Resin and Geothermal Sea vents would be appreciative.
Furthermore, please talk about any resources I might have missed. I'll get around to adding them.


Edit 2: Also a gem resource in Northern Ontario, probably to represent the Amethyst deposits in the area, near the Iron.
That would require Sapphires in the area as well. So that is what I'll do.
'North Ontario as well, since it should represent the Amethyst deposits in the area (visited them), I placed a Sapphire which should open up the 'Amethyst mine' building with the iron in the vicinity as well. '

With the GEM map that Koshling put in the current SVN, dont you think that there are enough Horses above the Iroquois civ??

With the GEM map that Koshling put in the current SVN, dont you think that there are enough Horses above the Iroquois civ??

I'm pretty sure those spawned there, as far as I know... the north American continent is void of all horses.
The event that deals with a random herd of 'animal'.
I've had potatoes spawn near Berlin in my older game.

Edit: I'm going to take a look, but that is a LOT of horse spawns in the 129 turns you've played.

Edit 2: Looked at my new game, 19 turns in, and the NA continent does not contain a horse on it, so that is definitely event spawn.
Not much I can do about unfortunately, as those tiles were 'free' for that even to place something there.

Yeah, the event spawns need to be scaled down severely. I've seen civs whose land is pretty much flooded by horses, deer, and buffalo by around turn 500. As far as a neighbor for turkey is concerned, nearby you can place a duplicate turkey civ, name them "sarmatians", or a duplicate mongol civ, and call them "Xiongnu".

I think delete summeria or babylon or assyria and put huns or attila to east of russia. Thats just what i feel. Also just wanted to give a big ♥ Acularis!

Map is coming along nicely, would love a random civ option + a start in ancient era option. I can't bare snail + prehistoric on this map unfortunately, it simply drags on too long at the start. If we had ancient start I could play snail which would be great.

SeaVents Here is a map, perhaps just put in the red dots (active vents) http://www.peteraldhous.com/vents.html

Oh and I think you should put maori in new zealand but give them some more land and some more island north east of new zealand & towards south america. Filipino dudes & Maori are too close as is.

Thought about adding the madagascar team? Just make the island alot bigger with more resources, it doesn't matter about how accurate the map is. Balance and diversity = win. Perhaps even another north american team.

I think delete summeria or babylon or assyria and put huns or attila to east of russia. Thats just what i feel. Also just wanted to give a big ♥ Acularis!

Map is coming along nicely, would love a random civ option + a start in ancient era option. I can't bare snail + prehistoric on this map unfortunately, it simply drags on too long at the start. If we had ancient start I could play snail which would be great.

SeaVents Here is a map, perhaps just put in the red dots (active vents) http://www.peteraldhous.com/vents.html

Oh and I think you should put maori in new zealand but give them some more land and some more island north east of new zealand & towards south america. Filipino dudes & Maori are too close as is.

Thought about adding the madagascar team? Just make the island alot bigger with more resources, it doesn't matter about how accurate the map is. Balance and diversity = win. Perhaps even another north american team.

Was considering the Apache, but not Madagascar.
I have, however, been considering a duplicate Mongol (Ural mountain area, put pressure on the Turks) and China civ (South China, pressure on IndoChina, as well as Tibet and North China - Was thinking Guangzhou area).

I stand by leaving the Middle East as it is, current game I have has the Byzantines who had cut a swathe through the Hittites (now located in Babylon) and Assyria.

Probably a stroke of luck, but 2 barbarian civs spawned near China on the Yellow River Delta, and were quickly conquered.:goodjob:

Aztecs dominating Central America.
No clear winner anywhere else so far as I can tell.

What do you mean by random civ? The no preset map is pretty good.

As for the starting time, I'll see what I can do, I think I experimented with it before, but I'll try putting in 'none' next time and see if that allows for more flexible starts.
Also, hopefully this did not make it in the release but apparently while editing the map, I have some deer swimming in the North Sea off the coast of Scotland. XD

Random civ, like instead of choosing a civ to play you choose random and it picks one for you. I haven't played with barbarian civs allowed, maybe ill give that a go in my next game to help plug the gaps.
I just use a random number generator and generate a number between 1-46(number of civs from memory).

How do you feel about Maori change like i suggested? Maybe give them some lush land & lots of sheep :) lol dirty sheep fckers. Also I really don't think you need another china, Tibet is essentially a 2nd china anyway, the problem is north of Otto's in my opinion. In my game as mongols Otto's had like 30+ cities while most had 3-11 cities. Mali and me also had around 20.
Russia tends to get stuck in a war with Attila in all the games i've played on the map and never gets more than 2-3 cities. Move Atilla inbetween russia and mongols or replace russia with attila and put russia to the east. Then we'll be Rockin'

Oh and If you gift all prehistoric techs to the civs and save it as an ancient start scenario this should work yeah?? Maybe just change the year too.

Started a new game as Persia yesterday. It's still early, but it's very clear that it's WAY easier to keep up score wise than it was playing England (or France, Portugal, or Spain). The reason for this is access to massive amount of hunting terrain. As England, even after I could get units onto the continent I couldn't really get them past the wall of near-eastern civilizations (Germany et al) and the difference that makes is literally an animal every 10 turns (England) to 4 or 5 animals a turn (Persia). This means my science rate, growth rate, production rate are all at least double what they were in the previous game at the same point.

This is not entirely a map issue (or at least not one that is addressable within the constraints of it being an Earth map), but it's worth bearing in mind when you choose who to play. The difference in difficulty is huge.

Random civ, like instead of choosing a civ to play you choose random and it picks one for you. I haven't played with barbarian civs allowed, maybe ill give that a go in my next game to help plug the gaps.
I just use a random number generator and generate a number between 1-46(number of civs from memory).

How do you feel about Maori change like i suggested? Maybe give them some lush land & lots of sheep :). Also I really don't think you need another china, Tibet is essentially a 2nd china anyway, the problem is north of Otto's in my opinion. In my game as mongols Otto's had like 30+ cities while most had 3-11 cities. Mali and me also had around 20.

Actually I've heard New Zealand lovingly referred to as a Mooacracy. (More cows than people. :P )
As for the sheep and cows, pretty sure they aren't native to New Zealand.
I do think another China is neccessary, mainly because the area took a WHILE to unify, and then it was pretty solid, until then, war was common to the region and even after unification there were Civil Wars and 'barbarian' invasions.

Started a new game as Persia yesterday. It's still early, but it's very clear that it's WAY easier to keep up score wise than it was playing England (or France, Portugal, or Spain). The reason for this is access to massive amount of hunting terrain. As England, even after I could get units onto the continent I couldn't really get them past the wall of near-eastern civilizations (Germany et al) and the difference that makes is literally an animal every 10 turns (England) to 4 or 5 animals a turn (Persia). This means my science rate, growth rate, production rate are all at least double what they were in the previous game at the same point.

This is not entirely a map issue (or at least not one that is addressable within the constraints of it being an Earth map), but it's worth bearing in mind when you choose who to play. The difference in difficulty is huge.

I gave South East England 'lush' land, in a vague hope that the early population explosion resultant will give England a good tech head start to keep apace with the rest of the world until she can properly expand off the Isles.
Also, I was debating playing a Persia game, but I wanted to check how difficult it was to actually play in IndoChina since the AI never seemed keen enough to unify it.
All I had to do was fight defensively and Cambodia lost her troops againt my jungled hill, and I proceeded to siege and capture Cambodia.
Now I'm making my way to Tribalism and the rest of the world is doing quite well.

I can't however make the assumption that the AI will perform this well all the time. However I think China shall preform better overall now.

Edited the Opening Post with updated information on the changes I am thinking about.

I agree Koshling 100%. I had to butcher animals every turn as mongols coz i had so many automated hunters out early just going to town on the animals. I also had my great general out pretty early and by mid ancient he had like 400 experience with so many upgrades it was ridiculous. Every city I had had deer herds and zebras etc lol Whereas when I played as Australia the previous game I never had a master hunter until I got into indonesia well into ancient. Im pretty sure I had sea hunter one b4 land. Being able to build hunters is pretty huge. This is another reason why I feel ancient start would be fairer on this map. It will help the europeans alot I feel.

I started a game as otto's and I have already killed persia and have 8 cities while everyone has 1-3 and I feel the game is already kinda over and its only just reached ancient for me (immortal diff.)

I was looking at your 1st post and if i read it correctly, you need some civs in certain areas, all you have to do it let me know which civ(s) you want and i can make them, Hydro has requested over 15 already, just for his culture civs. I have over 100 civs i can make so far, hopefully one of these i have you need, if not i can make them, no biggy, just give the info of the name of the civ and which leader you want. Hows that?:)


Just PM me, thats it!!

Thanks strategyonly :)

Had another thought Acularius, Constantinople should be on a tile joining western europe to middle east. Only 1 tile. There should be no other way through except going inside the city or going east around towards Eurasia. Also I was thinking that the scenario should begin with the cities already established, so on turn 2 essentially. This way you can't move your tribe, for historical accuracy + fun.

Just took over, what i think is a Madagascar Civ, but it right above the Aztecs and below the Native American Civ in the USA:crazyeye::confused:

btw, is anyone else's CFC posts and CFC in general taking alot of time lately, or is it just my internet??

Just took over, what i think is a Madagascar Civ, but it right above the Aztecs and below the Native American Civ in the USA:crazyeye::confused:


My guess is this is the result of a revolution.

My guess is this is the result of a revolution.

Just took over, what i think is a Madagascar Civ, but it right above the Aztecs and below the Native American Civ in the USA:crazyeye::confused:

btw, is anyone else's CFC posts and CFC in general taking alot of time lately, or is it just my internet??

It is the result of a revolution. I saw the Inuit and, I believe the Apache, spawn right next to China in my current game before they were subsumed into it.

That's why I'm thinking of putting a civ in that area.

I can probably turn off 'barbarian civs' from the Pre Columbian map in hindsight since it is rather filled up already and they will essentially act like barbarian civs until the advent of writing anyhow.

Also, after looking up the Xiongnu, even the the character 'Chanyu' would be epic to add, they tend to occupy the same space as the Mongols.
So, I'm going to look around a bit. As for China, I don't think you need to add a separate civ for that, just more leaders and a duplicate civ should be feasible.

It is the result of a revolution. I saw the Inuit and, I believe the Apache, spawn right next to China in my current game before they were subsumed into it.

That's why I'm thinking of putting a civ in that area.

I can probably turn off 'barbarian civs' from the Pre Columbian map in hindsight since it is rather filled up already and they will essentially act like barbarian civs until the advent of writing anyhow.

Also, after looking up the Xiongnu, even the the character 'Chanyu' would be epic to add, they tend to occupy the same space as the Mongols.
So, I'm going to look around a bit. As for China, I don't think you need to add a separate civ for that, just more leaders and a duplicate civ should be feasible.

If we could tag civs with a 'grouping id' we could modify the civ spawnign code to use a civ from a group that matrches nearby extant civs. (if any are available)

If we could tag civs with a 'grouping id' we could modify the civ spawnign code to use a civ from a group that matrches nearby extant civs. (if any are available)

That would be awesome, I don't know anything about code, but you could probably tie it to the closest city on the continent with the 'Native culture' building. So, if someone spawns on the Eurasian continent near say, China, an 'Asian' culture could spawn.

On to GEM, I will probably remove Cambodia. Maybe that will create an interesting nation from Indochina. With the most possible addition of a South China civ, should be feasible.

Aboriginals doing fine in Australia, but I'm not convinced the Maori should stay. :/
(Even if I put them on New Zealand, the situation will be the same, a stagnant civ.)

Edit: Opening post updated.

Kazan would be a likely civ I would recommend for creation.
Occupied the area I'm looking at dropping them in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olug_Moxammat

As for interesting Chinese leaders to add, you have a sleuth of them to look at (and for reasons unknown, Canada has 5 leaders... this astonished me XD )
Cao Cao would be interesting. (easy to look up) I do seriously recommend
this chap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Y%C3%BCan-chang (Founder of the Ming Dynasty, brought down the Mongolian Yuan dynasty)

I keep finding walrus roaming the Russian forests! I guess they must be lost.

I keep finding walrus roaming the Russian forests! I guess they must be lost.

I find vipers and cobras inthe Siberia, I'm surprised they are still alive. :P

Might have to do with the spawn points in the tundra/permafrost/ice of Russia. So much Russia. :D

I keep finding walrus roaming the Russian forests! I guess they must be lost.

We need a tag for animal unit movement that keeps them on the coast, I keep having penguins far inland on random maps.

I keep having penguins far inland on random maps.

Have you seen March of the Penguins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_the_Penguins)? Emperor Penguins go very far inland.

Have you seen March of the Penguins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_the_Penguins)? Emperor Penguins go very far inland.

Hmmm, well I still think reptiles should not be able to go up to the tundra, permafrost and ice regions...

Hmmm, well I still think reptiles should not be able to go up to the tundra, permafrost and ice regions...

They shouldn't, nor should Rockhopper penguins be able to enter rocky plots not next to the ocean.

I'll look at the reptile ranges.

man o man does this map need ancient start, prehistoric is jaw droppingly boring, especially if you start as minor, you have to go through 500+ turns before you can really do anything and even then you are nowhere near writing.. its just frustrating, not fun at all.

man o man does this map need ancient start, prehistoric is jaw droppingly boring, especially if you start as minor, you have to go through 500+ turns before you can really do anything and even then you are nowhere near writing.. its just frustrating, not fun at all.

If you *really* want to just get past prehistoric, you can do an rather easy work around. Just go to the world builder. There is an option "Add tech by era" where you just pick prehistoric for everyone (it's a bit annoying especially because you have to go through so many nations, but after you're done you can make a save to go back to later).
Now everyone starts in ancient era. I'm not sure if there are any negative side effects in the long run, but I don't think there should.

Also, if you play as a middle eastern nation, minor start is REALLY fun :D

Yeah ive done this b4, the only problem is if you save it to use later, the one civ you picked is on immortal difficulty (my one) whereas all others are noble, so you have to use same civ. Also it takes a long time going through 46 civs adding all prehistoric techs, but yeah point taken.

Guess i could just play as noble then edit and save and then when i play use flexible difficulty :)

If you *really* want to just get past prehistoric, you can do an rather easy work around. Just go to the world builder. There is an option "Add tech by era" where you just pick prehistoric for everyone (it's a bit annoying especially because you have to go through so many nations, but after you're done you can make a save to go back to later).
Now everyone starts in ancient era. I'm not sure if there are any negative side effects in the long run, but I don't think there should.

Also, if you play as a middle eastern nation, minor start is REALLY fun :D

I'm playing Persia in my current game, and I also thought prehistoric went by (well I'm still in it, but really the bit up to tribalism - it's ok after that IMO) a bit slow. It's not necessarily that there are too many turns, it's just that the tech tree is a little sparse in terms of the impact new techs have (partly this is due to a lot of it being there to support nomadic starts which isn't fully enable yet, so it may be a transitory condiiton, though certainly a concern for V23).

A bigger problem (at least IMO) is that it just seems too easy. On Imortal with increasing difficulty (so diety fairly fast) I have the lead in all demographics and the tech lead (though that's close) well before sedentary lifestyle (I'm still some way from that). I can see at least 3 factors that are causing this:


AI isn't hunting actively enough, and is devoting too much energy to pointless squabbling when there is so much unclaimed land
Related to the above, the AI is over-aggressive, but ineffectually so. I get AI attack stacks that are not ridiculously weak, but just aren't quite enough to get past my defenses, every 50 or so turns. The net effect is to waste the attacking AI's resources and promote my great generals
Again related to the above, the AI really really sucks at handling great commanders
I have been able to (easily) support 5 cities in Anarchism, even though that causes me 6 extra unghappy people in every city, and I'm on diety base happyness. That's down to a ton of happyness produsing buildings and resources (my capital has +9 from buildings, +7 from resources and I'm noweheer near sedentrary yet, so this is all very early stuff)


So, I think work is needed in the following areas:

Make the AI (when at war only through minor-civedness) less aggressive, and increase its resources devoted to hunting instead.
For those AI that do decide to be aggressive (we want some variation after all) increase the threshold at which it decides it has adequate force. It also needs to take a hard look at what units it has in it attack stacks (too many trained dogs still)
Improve Great Commander AI
Make some balance changes so that happyness isn't so ridiculously easy to manage. Happyness directly from resources needs curtailing somehow, and so does the amount of happyness available on buildings early on. We might need percentage happyness mods or fractional ones. I'm not sure on the best way to address this.


Obviously the AI work falls to me. Hopefully the team at large can come up with somethign on the last point (balancing happyness better)...

yeah i don't use great commanders for this reason, u can abuse them way too easy, i also feel start as minor stuffs AI up. A good strategy is never to go to war unless you have no room to expand or a neighbour is easy picking, but AI seem to think its a good idea to goto war with civs of similar power and thereby stagnate there progress.

I started a game as otto's immortal diff and game was basically over shortly into ancient in my opinion, i had already killed persians had like 10+ cities and was way ahead in techs and had nearly every wonder etc. So im playing as england now but my god is it boring lol

Those governor pets buildings that can be built by literally any animal (i think) which give +1 happy each could be changed I feel, they give culture and less likely to revolt i think, this is enough.

yeah i don't use great commanders for this reason, u can abuse them way too easy, i also feel start as minor stuffs AI up. A good strategy is never to go to war unless you have no room to expand or a neighbour is easy picking, but AI seem to think its a good idea to goto war with civs of similar power and thereby stagnate there progress.

I started a game as otto's immortal diff and game was basically over shortly into ancient in my opinion, i had already killed persians had like 10+ cities and was way ahead in techs and had nearly every wonder etc. So im playing as england now but my god is it boring lol

Those governor pets buildings that can be built by literally any animal (i think) which give +1 happy each could be changed I feel, they give culture and less likely to revolt i think, this is enough.

If you are playing as England I strongly recommend you switch the auto-end-turn option on. I actually added that option while playing England in a GEM game myself!

yeah i got that on :)
Im way behind tho which is a nice change though.

Once I got to ancient as Siam, I was literally just looking down on every other nation. I essentially taught the Chinese 'monarchy' and they finally stabilized
Would the ai be just as effective if I turned off the aggressive options?
I do enjoy minor civs as it gives a pretty good feel, although with the new tech tree I think writing is too far away now... you could probably push it a little earlier now.

Granted I stopped that game accidently by saving over it, but the only difficulty I had was securing Iron and copper, but managed to get them early on.

Actually I think the AI doesn't understand the expansion limits placed on it by the civics, I've seen way too many AI overexpand and suffer unhappiness to the extreme due to the mismanagement of their expansion. They should be able to realize that -3 happiness across all their cities is a bad thing.
Actually China was doing great with 3 of her 'core' cities in the Yangtze Delta being at incredibly high populations, and she proved to actually be a technological competition until civil war destroyed the population centre of the one. Then she fell apart until I stabilized her with despotism and later monarchy. [Due to overexpansion and mismanagement of her happiness. :/ ] (Seems to me a common problem that the AI can not handle.)

So better happiness management for the AI should help them out a bit.

Once I got to ancient as Siam, I was literally just looking down on every other nation. I essentially taught the Chinese 'monarchy' and they finally stabilized
Would the ai be just as effective if I turned off the aggressive options?
I do enjoy minor civs as it gives a pretty good feel, although with the new tech tree I think writing is too far away now... you could probably push it a little earlier now.

Granted I stopped that game accidently by saving over it, but the only difficulty I had was securing Iron and copper, but managed to get them early on.

Actually I think the AI doesn't understand the expansion limits placed on it by the civics, I've seen way too many AI overexpand and suffer unhappiness to the extreme due to the mismanagement of their expansion. They should be able to realize that -3 happiness across all their cities is a bad thing.
Actually China was doing great with 3 of her 'core' cities in the Yangtze Delta being at incredibly high populations, and she proved to actually be a technological competition until civil war destroyed the population centre of the one. Then she fell apart until I stabilized her with despotism and later monarchy. [Due to overexpansion and mismanagement of her happiness. :/ ] (Seems to me a common problem that the AI can not handle.)

So better happiness management for the AI should help them out a bit.

I have aggrssive AI turned off in my game. They are still too (strategically) aggressive.

The AI does understand the city limits, and should never spam itself into unhappyness. If you see an AI do that then you need to post a save game. Also I strongly recommend you run with AI logging turned on (it's a BUG option now, which I added a few weeks ago) so that we can get some clues as to what is happening, even without save games, in cases like that.

A bigger problem (at least IMO) is that it just seems too easy. On Imortal with increasing difficulty (so diety fairly fast) I have the lead in all demographics and the tech lead (though that's close) well before sedentary lifestyle (I'm still some way from that). I can see at least 3 factors that are causing this:


AI isn't hunting actively enough, and is devoting too much energy to pointless squabbling when there is so much unclaimed land
Related to the above, the AI is over-aggressive, but ineffectually so. I get AI attack stacks that are not ridiculously weak, but just aren't quite enough to get past my defenses, every 50 or so turns. The net effect is to waste the attacking AI's resources and promote my great generals
Again related to the above, the AI really really sucks at handling great commanders
I have been able to (easily) support 5 cities in Anarchism, even though that causes me 6 extra unhappy people in every city, and I'm on deity base happiness. That's down to a ton of happiness producing buildings and resources (my capital has +9 from buildings, +7 from resources and I'm nowhere near sedentary yet, so this is all very early stuff)


So, I think work is needed in the following areas:

Make the AI (when at war only through minor-civedness) less aggressive, and increase its resources devoted to hunting instead.
For those AI that do decide to be aggressive (we want some variation after all) increase the threshold at which it decides it has adequate force. It also needs to take a hard look at what units it has in it attack stacks (too many trained dogs still)
Improve Great Commander AI
Make some balance changes so that happiness isn't so ridiculously easy to manage. Haplessness directly from resources needs curtailing somehow, and so does the amount of happiness available on buildings early on. We might need percentage happiness mods or fractional ones. I'm not sure on the best way to address this.


Obviously the AI work falls to me. Hopefully the team at large can come up with something on the last point (balancing happiness better)...


@Hydro/DH, i believe this issue really falls in you'll purview areas. Mainly Hydro in the PreH Era. What do you think of this?? Might want to re-look how Johny Smith had his era set up?

@KL: On the Great Commander stuff do you think maybe take them out completely and just move the Nobles etc closer and with the GC promotions available to them, or do you think you can address the AI to better resolve the GC issues?

@Hydro/DH, i believe this issue really falls in you'll purview areas. Mainly Hydro in the PreH Era. What do you think of this?? Might want to re-look how Johny Smith had his era set up?

@KL: On the Great Commander stuff do you think maybe take them out completely and just move the Nobles etc closer and with the GC promotions available to them, or do you think you can address the AI to better resolve the GC issues?

Personally I love the GC mechanic, and it's already a game option so I see no reason to remove it. I'm sure I can improve the AI's use of it when I get time (probably not until v25though, since I expect I'll be working on mutli-maps and massive m,ap scalability issues during the next cycle)

*deleted

Here is a revised edition of Acularius' latest GEM map with Ancient Era start.
Some civs were deleted, like portugal, assyrian i think and also the land above around to the north of Otto's has alot more ice + barren.
I also tried to balance starting locations alot more, i payed no heed to realism or accuracy i just made alot more islands in the indonesia region for aniuts/somoan/philipino civs and changed alot of there land.
Also linked england with ireland and added some more islands north of england and changed alot of terrain generally around the map to help civs that are struggling.

Russia's middle area, aside from the mountainous region is actually pretty temperate, and I was chalk it up to have temperatures that I've witnessed in Nothern Ontario in the Thunder Bay region, however less rocky and with more readily arable ground (and its the steppes, so more pasture land). So that's why that area looked right to me and I never did anything to it when I went around making the Mexican area and Tibetan area spruced up a bit. [Pretty sure the area is 'plains', which matches up with some information I can find of the area. http://www.rusnature.info/reg/13_3.htm ]

As for the Ainu and the Japanese, I was sincerely hoping that one might conquer the other (for an early city gain), BUT, I've only played one game with them... so I can't base everything on the one game I had going.

I just can't bring myself to delete the civilizations in the Middle East area, as it proves VERY interesting, last game the Byzantines conquered it all, but it could very much have gone another way. HOWEVER, the Arabians need some loving as I've never seen them go far at all, and I'm tempted to just remove them.

I do have terrain damage on, so maybe the AI is less willing to deal with that than myself the player.

As for Spain and Portugal, I might get rid of Portugal, however, I don't really want to do this as it tends to gears the AI towards expanding off the Iberian penninsula VERY early whereas with Portugal around, they usually fight one another until the death and THEN proceed to make forays into Europe.

As for the Ottomans in my last game. They didn't do much. The Chinese actually set a city right on their borders essentially and I instantly thought that the Silk Trade route was built, for the Chinese, in actual form.

I'm going to get another game going, and then work on the map again.

EDIT: I also heard that SO was shortening the Prehistoric Era so, good news all around. I enjoy it, but it does seem to drag on at points. (Essentially I get to a point where I'm essentially 'waiting' for Tribalism and Chiefdom)

EDIT 2: To be fair, the most fun I have is usually playing the Middle East, but recently I tried a game in Siam until I accidently overwrote my save. :(
So now I'm going to give the Japanese a shot, or the Ainu, I really do dislike the amount of choice for the Japanese leaders given. Korea could have some more choices as well. :P
[Not much on Aggressive/Deceiver, I much prefer philisophical or something.]

EDIT 3: My stance though from Paradox Interactive forums has never changed though, I much prefer Historical 'Plausibility' (what ifs are easier to deal with in Civ 4) than Historical 'Accuracy' (Train track this is holy writ and thus must be. Does not take into account of player intervention and can lead to wierd situations and scripted events.0

The changes i made are not necessarily recommended. Just an alternative to your map for someone who can't be bothered doing it themselves who wants a fair chance for all civs and also provides an ancient start.

I agree that russian lands aren't all ice :) its just that its this big area that otto's can go to on a city building spree with. Games i've played otto's get 30 cities while most need to war to get beyond like 10 or 12.

The changes i made are not necessarily recommended. Just an alternative to your map for someone who can't be bothered doing it themselves who wants a fair chance for all civs and also provides an ancient start.

I agree that russian lands aren't all ice :) its just that its this big area that otto's can go to on a city building spree with. Games i've played otto's get 30 cities while most need to war to get beyond like 10 or 12.

That's a legit reason, I just don't seem to have games where the ottos dominate like yours do.

Not saying they don't as all games are different, but the Ottos seem to do it regularily for you. :P (Whereas they have never done it for me, I say this and now the game I started will see an Ottoman Empire :P )

attila and catherine usually squabble for ages and don't really exploit all the open land, mongols usually fight with korea and goes north east and south, while otto's lick there lips. Who has taken this land in your games?

attila and catherine usually squabble for ages and don't really exploit all the open land, mongols usually fight with korea and goes north east and south, while otto's lick there lips. Who has taken this land in your games?

Russia and the Huns usually do squabble up until one gains an upper hand in gaining a barbarian civ.

The Mongols and Koreans usually fight over a barbarian city that spawns in the area of Port Arthur, essentially on the border of Korea and Manchuria... China, as I remarked earlier did remarkably well, and faced some problems from the Koreans and Mongols harassing their Northern borders, and the Chinese actually expanded over that desert and set a city next to the Ottomons. I think the Mongolians were actually expanding in the Ural direction, but didn't quite make it that far.

I think this game the Ottos were sufficiently kept under control, but I'm not 100% here.

Granted it could have ben me but the Tibetans just stayed in Tibet until they were eventually conquered by the Indians. China and I aggressively expanded north and south respectively and India grabbed the barb city that spawned in the Bengal area early on thus cutting off Tibet from any possible southern expansion routes.

Now I'm beginning my Japanese game and its fairly early to make any judgements at the moment. I am noticing a severe lack of hunting that made my other games more successful.

yeah i quit my game as england and am playing ragnar instead, much more fun being able to hunt and explore and stuff, not to mention much less of a handicap.

what difficulty you playing? I found i was too far behind with immortal as england.

yeah i quit my game as england and am playing ragnar instead, much more fun being able to hunt and explore and stuff, not to mention much less of a handicap.

what difficulty you playing? I found i was too far behind with immortal as england.

I tend to find Monarchy is okay for me, and it keeps things relatively balanced, but when I want a tougher game I go higher. However for testing, I go with Monarchy because it keeps me on 'par' with the AI, not entirely sure, feels about right.

yeah i quit my game as england and am playing ragnar instead, much more fun being able to hunt and explore and stuff, not to mention much less of a handicap.

what difficulty you playing? I found i was too far behind with immortal as england.

Immortal with increasing difficulty. As England I beelined raft building and founded a city on the French coast as soon as I could. Since France had been destroyed earlier on that made things easier, though I needed quite a lot of beachhead units to hold the new city, because it got mobbed at first. However, this was the game before my current one, and before all the extra prehistoric techs got added for nomads, so raft building was a little clos

I think for those who are finding it too easy, start on deity. Giving the AI two cities enables them to compete a lot better. In my current game, I'm behind still in the ancient era and I haven't even built a single wonder. It's shaping up to be a challenging game, although I am catching up fast.

I certainly agree that happiness, and health too, come far too easy, too many buildings give them to the point where they are not a concern. There is also too much gold, the science slider is redundant in my game. I think we need somethings to balance all the buildings that have been added to prehistoric recently.

I think for those who are finding it too easy, start on deity. Giving the AI two cities enables them to compete a lot better. In my current game, I'm behind still in the ancient era and I haven't even built a single wonder. It's shaping up to be a challenging game, although I am catching up fast.

I certainly agree that happiness, and health too, come far too easy, too many buildings give them to the point where they are not a concern. There is also too much gold, the science slider is redundant in my game. I think we need somethings to balance all the buildings that have been added to prehistoric recently.

Yeh, I know I can do this, but I really want it to not be necessary (which is why I prefer to keep working on the AI, and treating games as play tests until such time as it becoems challenging without resorting to such extreme measures).

if some improvements such as mines gave fractional negative health (which could perhaps be scaled higher on monarchy/imm/deity) this could b good. I really think the governor pets and menagerie are easy candidates to remove the +1 happy. Also the dog trainer having +1 happy +1 health seems excessive. I feel that resources shouldn't be changed as they are a good tool for game play and strategy.

Someone should go through all the buildings and slash all the +gold and +happy and to a lesser extent health.

As far as health is concerned having negative health in a city isn't actually a big deal since with +9food farms a few unhealthy citizens is really no biggie. So on second thought maybe slash +health too :)

Come to think of it, a good idea would be that excessive health problems or excessive happiness problems have a mutually negative effect on each other. If your people are unhappy (above certain amount, maybe -5 for example, this would cause -2 health and vice versa. This seems intuitive too since its realistic.)

*while your at it increase all the wonder costs too :lol:

if some improvements such as mines gave fractional negative health (which could perhaps be scaled higher on monarchy/imm/deity) this could b good. I really think the governor pets and menagerie are easy candidates to remove the +1 happy. Also the dog trainer having +1 happy +1 health seems excessive. I feel that resources shouldn't be changed as they are a good tool for game play and strategy.

Someone should go through all the buildings and slash all the +gold and +happy and to a lesser extent health.

As far as health is concerned having negative health in a city isn't actually a big deal since with +9food farms a few unhealthy citizens is really no biggie. So on second thought maybe slash +health too :)

Come to think of it, a good idea would be that excessive health problems or excessive happiness problems have a mutually negative effect on each other. If your people are unhappy (above certain amount, maybe -5 for example, this would cause -2 health and vice versa. This seems intuitive too since its realistic.)

*while your at it increase all the wonder costs too :lol:

The resources don't scale. It was fine when there were half a dozen, but now there are 20+ all giving +1. The best solution may well be to add some mechanic to give them decreasing returns.

A cheap option would be to implement an analogue of food wastage to apply to resource happyness and/or resource health. The idea is that you can only get so happy from more and more luxuries before it becomes a case of 'meh, another luxury item - put it in the cupboard over there'. The wastage mechanic (or something very like it) actually fits the bill pretty well here I think...

Think my scenario that i posted is screwed, i started as minor but then turned it off and saved the scenario (the one i posted in this thread) but having now played and reached writing, im still stuck as a minor. Won't change. Anyway to get around this?

The resources don't scale. It was fine when there were half a dozen, but now there are 20+ all giving +1. The best solution may well be to add some mechanic to give them decreasing returns.

A cheap option would be to implement an analogue of food wastage to apply to resource happyness and/or resource health. The idea is that you can only get so happy from more and more luxuries before it becomes a case of 'meh, another luxury item - put it in the cupboard over there'. The wastage mechanic (or something very like it) actually fits the bill pretty well here I think... Sounds ok, so having a maximum positive effect from resources. Capped at like +10 or something your saying? Sounds reasonable. Just need to make sure AI realise that purchasing that extra happy resource actually won't have an impact and therefore be uninterested in doing such trades.

I had that problem you are experiencing when I first started out with making a scenario and it has something to do with the way you have the civs started up. I'd imagine in every 'player' portion for the civs, there would be reference 'minor civ = 1" (or You are a minor civ = yes) which should be minor civ = 0, and then the settings that you do with custom set up should override that until writing. Granted if you want perpetual war, this is the way to go. :P

I recommend the utility 'wbcleaner', forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=270443a , which should allow you to get right on in there and clean everything up... although it will probably get rid of the tech you added in SO, I do recommend getting in the muck with notepad (notepad ++ works wonders) and copying the section that should essentially be the same for all the players.

Although easiest solution would be just to change all the minor civ = 1 and switching the ones to 0's.

If you are still encountering problems, copy the tech portion of the 'player' infos, (and the x y coord) and start mucking away.
Maybe I'm doing it the hard way, but so far it works for me unless someone proposes an easier method of doing all of this.

Do you guys play with realistic culture spread on? (I have it off by default, but I'm curious if the gameplay is consistant when it is on)

I turned off 'aggressive ai', barbarian civs (we are already at 40 +ish, so I would rather save it for revolutionary civs), and turned on realistic culture spread. I've noticed some considerable changes in how the ai does things, and I consider Japan relatively closed off from the system so I don't think I've influeneced the mainland in any way. I have sent a hunter off onto Eurasia recently to pick up the animals that I've severely lacked and to do some exploring and see where I stand. This was also the first time that I was beaten to Sedentary Lifestyle, although I did beeline Sailing so this was the trade off I suppose in that decision.
Siam actually managed to found a city north of the still free Cambodia, and if they hold it, should eventually overpower them in time.

That stone tool maker, has essentially given me a fighting chance and it is quite amazing, since I know Japan lacks copper I'll probably hold off in getting bronze working for a while.

I must say I'm rather impressed by the changes in the latest SVN, the AI is doing far better than I'd imagine or maybe the numbers are working in favor for them this game.
Also, it was bloody difficult to take down the Ainu,The only viable spot to attack them is the grassland off to the side and you have to attack over a river. It is hard to encircle because the kelp slows down ships and the other land surrounding them is tundra (which I'll have a look at - I know that the Siberia wind blows over Hokkaido, but I don't think it is quite THAT cold)

Hell, even Greece settled a couple of cities, I'm thinking that the original border expansion settings play merry hell with how the AI prioritizes where to settle cities. I can't believe I have never used this setting before, I think I might turn it on default for the future releases.

I think the tech speeds were sped up a bit as well. PH seemed to go by faster, if I'm not crazy, or maybe I had the Ainu preoccupy my mind enough.

I'm going to keep a look at hw the game develops with these changes.

Koshling improved natural culture recently, like he has done many things, its not bad. It just means more micro management for me tho, having to pay attention to when i can access certain resources and frankly i cbf doing that. I'd prefer to smash down the enter key bam bam bam ;)

Koshling improved natural culture recently, like he has done many things, its not bad. It just means more micro management for me tho, having to pay attention to when i can access certain resources and frankly i cbf doing that. I'd prefer to smash down the enter key bam bam bam ;)

You can still use units to 'claim land' and if it would naturally be within your sphere influence around a city without the option, you don't hav to keep units stationed there.

Do you guys play with realistic culture spread on? (I have it off by default, but I'm curious if the gameplay is consistant when it is on)

I have been playing with realistic culture spread on, aggressive AI off the last few games, so yes, these are my standard settings.

I have been playing with realistic culture spread on, aggressive AI off the last few games, so yes, these are my standard settings.

I agree, i never infact play with AGG AI on, never with Nukes (game is horrible to me with them, the way they are set now), I just found out you cant play Corporation and Guilds at the same time??, never ever play with a time limit (i absolutely hate that option) never use UN, Barbs always raze, religion decay, personalized map, ruthless AI, High to low, final five, unlimited wonders, and and anything above Barb World.

I agree, i never infact play with AGG AI on, never with Nukes (game is horrible to me with them, the way they are set now), I just found out you cant play Corporation and Guilds at the same time??, never ever play with a time limit (i absolutely hate that option) never use UN, Barbs always raze, religion decay, personalized map, ruthless AI, High to low, final five, unlimited wonders, and and anything above Barb World.

I play with UN, Barbs always raze and religion decay. Personalized map I have gone back and forth with. If on an Earth map then definitely off. High to low I have done before but not not recently. Never Unlimited Wonders and Ruthless AI and Barb World is just not my style. Final Five I never have enough civs to make that useful.

I think it would be amazing if you could still choose all the various options yourself even when playing a custom scenario, not only speed/difficulty but also all the tweaks like you mentioned. Everyone has different preferences and especially for GEM that would be an awesome feature in this mod.

I think it would be amazing if you could still choose all the various options yourself even when playing a custom scenario, not only speed/difficulty but also all the tweaks like you mentioned. Everyone has different preferences and especially for GEM that would be an awesome feature in this mod.


The speed and setting is something I don't know how to choose, but all the other little bits are customizable in custom scenario... I just have them on so I don't click fest all the time and I really do recommend the settings.

The speed and setting is something I don't know how to choose, but all the other little bits are customizable in custom scenario... I just have them on so I don't click fest all the time and I really do recommend the settings.
What I meant is, that you could choose barb civs, un, no religion decay and all these options as you wish before you start the game, just as you now choose speed and difficulty. That way everyone should be happy. I know you can just manually edit the map file to meet your needs but that gets destroyed with every update and it would just be nicer to do it ingame ;)

@Samin
You can change every option, I don't get it.
The only thing you can't change is the starting era and of course map dynamics such as size and number of civs ( although u can just play the random location one and this allows you to choose the number of civs). So I think your wrong, you can change/choose everything. Or am i missing something?

Custom scenario, pick, then everything is listed as per normal?? Then you can access BUG in game as normal. :confused:

You can change every option, I don't get it.
The only thing you can't change is the starting era and of course map dynamics such as size and number of civs ( although u can just play the random location one and this allows you to choose the number of civs). So I think your wrong, you can change/choose everything. Or am i missing something?

Custom scenario, pick, then everything is listed as per normal?? Then you can access BUG in game as normal. :confused:

What I wrote, sounded great in my head. Apparetly did not read the same way the next time I looked at it. XD

Resources have been placed, Apache has been given a lovely spot, and I'll probably just remove only the Maori in tweaking this map.

Last of the gems removed. Like a boss.
Kelp of Manchuria fixed. Like a boss.
Deer of the North Sea removed. Like a boss.
Geothermal sea vents were placed because I didn't have to data mine. Like a boss.
...
and I'm done, now to deal with the files and 'copy and pasta'.
Give me an hour tops, and I'll have the new versions up.

EDIT: NEW MAP VERSION UPLOADED! OP updated with the new map files, happy hunting. (Find all my mistakes! :D )
Technical stuff, should be compatible with SVN versions 2524+ and the upcoming release of C2C v23! :goodjob:


P.S Keep up the good work C2C team!

if you ever get a chance and are so inclined can you do an ancient era start for me <3
and also maybe in your first post you should tell people where to put the map and to use custom scenario etc.

Resources have been placed, Apache has been given a lovely spot, and I'll probably just remove only the Maori in tweaking this map.

Last of the gems removed. Like a boss.
Kelp of Manchuria fixed. Like a boss.
Deer of the North Sea removed. Like a boss.
Geothermal sea vents were placed because I didn't have to data mine. Like a boss.
...
and I'm done, now to deal with the files and 'copy and pasta'.
Give me an hour tops, and I'll have the new versions up.

EDIT: NEW MAP VERSION UPLOADED! OP updated with the new map files, happy hunting. (Find all my mistakes! :D )
Technical stuff, should be compatible with SVN versions 2524+ and the upcoming release of C2C v23! :goodjob:


P.S Keep up the good work C2C team!

I have uploaded them into the SVN provate maps area for release with v23

if you ever get a chance and are so inclined can you do an ancient era start for me <3
and also maybe in your first post you should tell people where to put the map and to use custom scenario etc.
Excellent idea.

Ancient start, I'll get to working on it after the release of V23, this release was moreso to fix silly mistakes and since sea vents were shown to me, I added them in.

and since sea vents were shown to me, I added them in.
happy to help :lol:

Not sure if this was intentional. New game with updated map starts at 4000 BC. Right now in this game its 500 AD and i havent left pre-historic era.

Not sure if this was intentional. New game with updated map starts at 4000 BC. Right now in this game its 500 AD and i havent left pre-historic era.
Welp, I know the cause of that.
It will have something to do with the game start date, I was trying to free up te 'era selection' but nothing seemed to work with me.
Easy fix, just need to tack in gamestart = -12000 and I believe the minimum turn line.
To be honest, almost thought it was something worse.

Np =p. Its kinda funny that i'm in 4000 AD when i finally got out of Pre-historic era!

Np =p. Its kinda funny that i'm in 4000 AD when i finally got out of Pre-historic era!

Well, it is actually, still that's a "My bad" on my end. :P

Granted it shouldn't have anything to do with gameplay as long as the years progress in the same scale that they should. (For the culture buildings that 'double' there culture values after a 1000 years, like the Tumulus.)

Its np. I'll go back to lurking o.o. Keep up the good work.

Is this only happening to me for some reason? I just installed the latest version of your map, but it is unplayable. Every time I pick a civ and load up the map, I instantly get a "you have been defeated" screen before it even loads up the map or anything. :confused:

Is this only happening to me for some reason? I just installed the latest version of your map, but it is unplayable. Every time I pick a civ and load up the map, I instantly get a "you have been defeated" screen before it even loads up the map or anything. :confused:

Which map scenario?
There are 3.
[I'm exhausted right now, but I'll get to it tomorrow evening after the visitations to the family grave is done.]
Also, where did you download it from? The OP of this topic or another location?

So if you post all the problems, the civ you choose. What version of C2C you were using, then I can pinpoint where the problem is and fix it.

Edit: Loaded up as the Celts, they seemed to have loaded fine. Passed a turn, and from what I can tell, every AI civ managed to found a city.

Which map scenario?
There are 3.
[I'm exhausted right now, but I'll get to it tomorrow evening after the visitations to the family grave is done.]
Also, where did you download it from? The OP of this topic or another location?

So if you post all the problems, the civ you choose. What version of C2C you were using, then I can pinpoint where the problem is and fix it.

Edit: Loaded up as the Celts, they seemed to have loaded fine. Passed a turn, and from what I can tell, every AI civ managed to found a city.

Earth pre-colombian civs, downloaded from the OP. I have attempted to play multiple civs, off the top of my head Germany, Sumeria, Babylon, Arabia, Iroquious, Celts...and others

Earth pre-colombian civs, downloaded from the OP. I have attempted to play multiple civs, off the top of my head Germany, Sumeria, Babylon, Arabia, Iroquious, Celts...and others

What changes did you make to the original pre-set options did you make? Maybe one of those doesn't work correctly, because i tried all those civs you stated and they work for me??

Aww, I just noticed there is no barren tile in the peru area for "proper" placement of the nacza lines wonder :( Actually I think there is no barren on this map at all.

Yeah i just cheated and gave myself a barren last time i was inca :)

You forgot to change the gems to platinum for arabs bro.

There's also a random herd of deer in the middle of the North Sea near Scotland...I ended up WB it to the forested tundra two(?) tiles to the west.

There's also a random herd of deer in the middle of the North Sea near Scotland...I ended up WB it to the forested tundra two(?) tiles to the west.
Okay back in action. [Rough day yesterday]

Now on to your question, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you are using the May 2nd version, check the description of the map for a timestamp that I place on all maps when I go dicker about in the text files.

I fixed that North Sea deer and some other things I noticed in the May 10th version.

All posted in the opening post of this topic. Cheers.

As for the barren tile, I'll see what I can do and spinkle the map with them.
I think I totally forgot about them though.

Anything else people are noticing?

Also, note, I updated the May 10th version to have the proper start date in 12000 BCE.


Note: I'll try to update once a weekend if there are things that need changing as I'm starting up my summer job that will consume the majority of my weekdays.
I will however hover around the forums, answer any questions you might have and take any suggestions in improving this great map further.
Thank you for your patience all! :D

You forgot to change the gems to platinum for arabs bro.

I just downloaded the updated version of the map, and attempted to run the default pre colombian civs scenario (no settings where changed). I am still running into the problem of being "defeated" before the game can start. I am running the latest version of Caveman 2 Cosmos.

Edit: I did get this working on the 9 preset civs and no preset civs. I do have a quick question, though. Why is it all of these earth maps have Louisiana, Bangladesh, and the Netherlands as a desert? These areas should be a mixture of lush, swamp, and muddy tiles, not desert floodplains.

Hot, when loading up the game with the full civs, click custom game, and then review the civ list. If there is a "closed" listed as a civ that's not at the end of the list, then more than likely that's your issue. Check the civs with the ones listed in the notepad version of the file to find which ones have an error/are missing.

Edit: I did get this working on the 9 preset civs and no preset civs. I do have a quick question, though. Why is it all of these earth maps have Louisiana, Bangladesh, and the Netherlands as a desert? These areas should be a mixture of lush, swamp, and muddy tiles, not desert floodplains.

I haven't gotten around to them yet.
To be fair though, these are present in the GEM scenario base and I haven't gotten around to converting these areas as I tend to prioritize the starting areas of civs or areas that didn't look quite right to me (such as Tibet and Mexico).

I have an idea of what to do with the Netherlands, but I'm going to do some looking up into that area before I implement it. I'll do the same with the other areas you mentioned in time.
So, I'm slowly converting GEM to use the new terrains that are present in C2C that aren't present in vanilla Civ 4.
Took a while to change the oceans to their respective 'tropical' and tiny 'polar' area.. Should fially get those tropical coasts done though as I'm pretty sure I have the arctic ones done.

I have an idea of what to do with the Netherlands, but I'm going to do some looking up into that area before I implement it. I'll do the same with the other areas you mentioned in time.
So, I'm slowly converting GEM to use the new terrains that are present in C2C that aren't present in vanilla Civ 4.
Took a while to change the oceans to their respective 'tropical' and tiny 'polar' area.. Should fially get those tropical coasts done though as I'm pretty sure I have the arctic ones done.

I can't even explain how grateful I am for the work you put into this map. It's now the only map I play anymore and it doesn't get old because the games can run totally different courses based upon some early rounds battle luck (constant additions to C2C probably help keeping it fresh too ^^).

You're awesome and thanks for your work :)

I can't even explain how grateful I am for the work you put into this map. It's now the only map I play anymore and it doesn't get old because the games can run totally different courses based upon some early rounds battle luck (constant additions to C2C probably help keeping it fresh too ^^).

You're awesome and thanks for your work :)

I will do my best and bring about an update for this weekend. However I will say in advance there will be no update next weekend as I will be preoccupied with 'Anime North', a convention that warms my inner geek to glorious awesome temperatures. (Granted the oncoming 'warm' early summer in May may have something to do with it as well) :P

My friends have convinced to do the entire 3 day thing, whereas I usually go for the one day. I'm only young-ish enough once in my life so I figured I would take up the offer.

Are these the GEM maps that are bundled with C2C? If I'm playing the latest version of C2C, do I have the latest version of the scenarios?

Are these the GEM maps that are bundled with C2C? If I'm playing the latest version of C2C, do I have the latest version of the scenarios?

Yes those are the same maps and they are usually kept up-to-date with the SVN version, at least recently

Then I would like to complain that many cultures cannot be founded in their real geographic locations because of the lack of required resources and sometimes even terrain. Here's the list of what I've found

Ainu: No Furs on Ezochi/Hokkaido. I would suggest one of 3 solutions:
1) Add another tundra tile to the island and give it Furs resources.
2) Replace Seals with Furs.
3) Bug the mod creator(s) to change required resource for Ainu culture.

American: No Cows, but maybe those can be transported from Europe later? Haven't reached that far yet.

Aztec: No Obsidian in southern Mexico. There's a couple of unused hills south of Aztec starting location.

Benin: No Wheat in West Africa. There's one coastal grasslands or lush tile that could give Wheat.

Brazilian: No Coffee, but maybe it can spread from Ethiopia later?

Byzantine: No Iron anywhere near. The closest hill on the Balkans is a good spot..

Carib: No Coconut Plant terrain feature on Caribbean islands.

Cherokee: No Pumpkins, but Apache do have some close to their city.

Goth: Rubies? What were they thinking? What do Goths have to do with rubies? Maybe some legendary ornamental weapon decorations? Still, there were no sources of rubies in Europe. I added some just to have Germans with Goth culture in my game, but this should really be changed in the mod.

Greek: No Marble in Greece? All tiles are taken up , but one can be added north of Athens without connecting to any islands or other landmasses. Alternately, you could just replace on of the two Stone resources with Marble.

Hausa: No Dye in West Africa.

Hittite: Closest Cows are more likely to be taken by other civs. There is an unused grassland just NW of their starting location.

Holy Roman: Incense? Not a very logical requirement, but the resource itself is very strange as well. Anyway, doesn't make much sense as a culture. Should be more like a wonder that requires German culture or something like that.

Indonesian: No Pearls close to main Indonesian islands.

Israeli: No Salt nearby.

Kanem-Bornu: No Diamonds.

Kongolese: No Prime Timber. You can add some in the closest forests to the north and to the south of their starting location, so they get the culture whichever way they decide to spread.

Maori: No Prime Timber on New Zealand, but a lot of space for it.

Mapuche: No Wheat in South America, but a lot of space for it.

Minoan: No Cows on Crete. The only solutions are to either place it under the goody hut or expand the island one tile westwards.

Moroccan: No Spices in Morocco and I wouldn't want them so close to Europe anyway.

Mutapa: No Gold in Zimbabwe. There really should be some. That was a mother of mother lodes.

Polynesian: Same as Carib, no Coconut Plants on the islands, and very little Fish.

Roman: No Olives close to Rome. The closest are on Sicily, but they are more likely to be claimed by Carthaginians. I suggest putting some in Northern Italy as surroundings of Rome are all full.

Somali: Don't see any Hemp in East Africa. A lot of space on the Horn.

Swahili: No Fish along the coast of southern East Africa. Absolutely no sea resources there at all.

Tupi: No Squash in Brazil.

Vietnamese: No Grapes in Indochina.

Welsh: No Clam off the coast of Wales.

Zapotec: No Gold in central Mexico, but there should really be some. Same as Zimbabwe.

Then I would like to suggest that many cultures cannot be founded in their real geographic locations because of the lack of required resources and sometimes even terrain. Here's the list of what I've found.

Nice list, wish more people would say things, good or bad.:)

Then I would like to complain that many cultures cannot be founded in their real geographic locations because of the lack of required resources and sometimes even terrain. Here's the list of what I've found
I was about to create a list like that. Well that saves work :D But let me add a few things.


Ainu: No Furs on Ezochi/Hokkaido. I would suggest one of 3 solutions:
1) Add another tundra tile to the island and give it Furs resources.
2) Replace Seals with Furs.
3) Bug the mod creator(s) to change required resource for Ainu culture.

As Seals are just as good of a source for pelts, I guess that actually should be a change to the culture (if it's possible an OR-Condition). But I'm not familiar with japanese ecology so I'm not sure if the seals there are "correct" or just there to have some resource up there (in which case it could just be switched to fur)


American: No Cows, but maybe those can be transported from Europe later? Haven't reached that far yet.
Yes that's the intention. You need european + american native culture for the (US)American culture anyway


Brazilian: No Coffee, but maybe it can spread from Ethiopia later?

Another mixed culture, needs Native American and Portugese, but I'm actually not sure if Great Farmers can plant coffee, so maybe it should still be there natively.

Also the Jade for Maya is 3 tiles away so unless you have large cities without building requirement active it takes pretty long to actually reach it. Maybe the copper and jade should be switched around.

Also the Jade for Maya is 3 tiles away so unless you have large cities without building requirement active it takes pretty long to actually reach it. Maybe the copper and jade should be switched around.

There are a few of those who have required resources some distance away but I didn't list them because they aren't in immediate threat of being beaten to the resources by other civs. For example, there's only a single Prime Timber in Scandinavia, quite some way away from the starting location, but there's really no one else around to take it.

I really appreciate your comments actually, right now I'm in a hotel in Toronto as my friends I'm rooming with delve into Magic packs... which is not my thing. So I'll look at what you have, and I REALLY appreciate the feedback.

Then I would like to complain that many cultures cannot be founded in their real geographic locations because of the lack of required resources and sometimes even terrain. Here's the list of what I've found

Ainu: No Furs on Ezochi/Hokkaido. I would suggest one of 3 solutions:
1) Add another tundra tile to the island and give it Furs resources.
2) Replace Seals with Furs.
3) Bug the mod creator(s) to change required resource for Ainu culture.

Will take a look into this area, might change it to furs, thought you could get furs from pelts, but I'll see if I change move some things around.

American: No Cows, but maybe those can be transported from Europe later? Haven't reached that far yet.
Pretty sure the Great Farmer can do something about this, cows were domesticated in the Old World, Egypt I believe was the first place, but don't quote me, most of the domestication of plants and animals happened in the 4 great river areas.
Mesopotamia, Nile, Ganges rivers, and the Yellow River.

Aztec: No Obsidian in southern Mexico. There's a couple of unused hills south of Aztec starting location.
Okay, I need to sprinkle some obsidian deposits in Central America.

Benin: No Wheat in West Africa. There's one coastal grasslands or lush tile that could give Wheat.
This I can easily change.


Brazilian: No Coffee, but maybe it can spread from Ethiopia later?

Pretty sure it can spread... Great Farmer I believe.

Byzantine: No Iron anywhere near. The closest hill on the Balkans is a good spot..
There is iron in Anatolia, near the Hittite start. So spread into the Carpathian basin, and conquer...

Carib: No Coconut Plant terrain feature on Caribbean islands.
Can do. (I think they are changing some terrain features to actually resources in the SVN though... I think)


Cherokee: No Pumpkins, but Apache do have some close to their city.

I'll take a look at the region.


Goth: Rubies? What were they thinking? What do Goths have to do with rubies? Maybe some legendary ornamental weapon decorations? Still, there were no sources of rubies in Europe. I added some just to have Germans with Goth culture in my game, but this should really be changed in the mod.

I'll be honest, I never understood this, mainly because rubies are literally from certain areas in the world... and I didn't bother stretching the truth just for the sake of the Goths. I did some good research on the gem replacements when I looked through it.

Greek: No Marble in Greece? All tiles are taken up , but one can be added north of Athens without connecting to any islands or other landmasses. Alternately, you could just replace on of the two Stone resources with Marble.
I might as well do this... I haven't touched any of the basic resources that have been there from the original GEM.

Hausa: No Dye in West Africa.
Can you cite me some sources that shows that West Africa was a source of dyes?


Hittite: Closest Cows are more likely to be taken by other civs. There is an unused grassland just NW of their starting location.
Go do the Hittite thing and conquer those silly civs. :P
I'll take a look though, and I'll probably put a cow in the region... possibly.
I think Apples should be for the Hittites though. Or horses.

Holy Roman: Incense? Not a very logical requirement, but the resource itself is very strange as well. Anyway, doesn't make much sense as a culture. Should be more like a wonder that requires German culture or something like that.
Should require the German culture of some sort, or Roman... but I don't know why Incense which hails from the Middle East.

Indonesian: No Pearls close to main Indonesian islands.
Thought I put some in the Indonesian area. Around one of the Indonesian islands... pretty sure. If I'm wrong I'll tack in some pearls for the region.

Israeli: No Salt nearby.
None in the desert nearby?

Kanem-Bornu: No Diamonds.
Is this an African culture or Oceanic, my brain is not functioning at the moment due to so MUCH awesome...
If Africa: Lots of diamond in Africa. XD
Oceania: Cite me a source that puts some diamonds in its respective area.

Kongolese: No Prime Timber. You can add some in the closest forests to the north and to the south of their starting location, so they get the culture whichever way they decide to spread.
Kongo has many jungles, I'm sure I can tack some 'Prime Timber' into the area.

Maori: No Prime Timber on New Zealand, but a lot of space for it.
Will do


Mapuche: No Wheat in South America, but a lot of space for it.
I'm pretty sure there is no wheat anywhere in the Americas, so this is a resource you need to bring over from the Old World...
Old World has Wheat, Barley, and Rice... New World has Potatoes and Corn.


Minoan: No Cows on Crete. The only solutions are to either place it under the goody hut or expand the island one tile westwards.
I think I decided not to do this in the end as I came across the same problem earlier.

Moroccan: No Spices in Morocco and I wouldn't want them so close to Europe anyway.
Maybe... one tiny spot of spice... but I really don't want to give too much to the European theatre... I can easily steamroll an Empire when you start bringing it under one rule.

Mutapa: No Gold in Zimbabwe. There really should be some. That was a mother of mother lodes.
Cite source, but I tend to agree, and it shall be done.

Polynesian: Same as Carib, no Coconut Plants on the islands, and very little Fish.
Guess I have to look up where the coconut dervied from, but even so I should sprinkle them in the carib and polynesian islands anyhow.

Roman: No Olives close to Rome. The closest are on Sicily, but they are more likely to be claimed by Carthaginians. I suggest putting some in Northern Italy as surroundings of Rome are all full.
I think I forgot to do this actually, as I wanted to do it before I believe.

Somali: Don't see any Hemp in East Africa. A lot of space on the Horn.
Will take a look.

Swahili: No Fish along the coast of southern East Africa. Absolutely no sea resources there at all.

You are probably, and most indoubly right and I should probably sprinkle some along the coast.

Tupi: No Squash in Brazil.
Hmmm, will take a look into this.

Vietnamese: No Grapes in Indochina.

Probably not going to happen unless you bring in a Great Farm... that and Vietnam is bloody rich as hell. XD

Welsh: No Clam off the coast of Wales.
I think the Welsh need a diffferent requirement... like Celt, hills, coast and a hill. (Grassland though)

Zapotec: No Gold in central Mexico, but there should really be some. Same as Zimbabwe.
You know... you're right... I also need to check if there is Silver in Peru while we are talking about precious metals.

Can you cite me some sources that shows that West Africa was a source of dyes?

www.google.rs/search?q=hausa+dye

Seems to be about native dyeing techniques, though. Don't know if it can be considered the same as dyes coveted by the colonizing nations.


Thought I put some in the Indonesian area. Around one of the Indonesian islands... pretty sure. If I'm wrong I'll tack in some pearls for the region.


Depends on what you consider Indonesian Islands. If you consider the whole Malay Archipelago, then it's not all covered by Indonesian culture. I'd mostly consider Sumatra and Java for historical locations for Indonesian culture.


None in the desert nearby?

The closest desert is 3 tiles east of Phoenicean starting city and it doesn't have salt. There is some much farther to east or southeast, don't really remember the exact direction.


Is this an African culture or Oceanic, my brain is not functioning at the moment due to so MUCH awesome...
If Africa: Lots of diamond in Africa. XD
Oceania: Cite me a source that puts some diamonds in its respective area.


It's Africa, but the location should be some way inland to the northeast from southern coast of West Africa, like north-northeast from Kongo. Didn't see any diamonds there.


Cite source, but I tend to agree, and it shall be done.

A source? Magna Mundi, of course! JK, here's a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutapa


Probably not going to happen unless you bring in a Great Farm... that and Vietnam is bloody rich as hell. XD

Quite plausible, really. Vietnamise culture did differentiate form Chinese quite late in the history.



I think the Welsh need a diffferent requirement... like Celt, hills, coast and a hill. (Grassland though)

Speaking of Celts, it's too broad a term, but this would be a suggestion for the main mod. Celtic civ is fine, but the culture should be separated into Gaul, Celtiberian, Briton and Irish at the very least, maybe also the eastern Scordisci and Galatians and some I've never heard of or forgot.

Speaking of Celts, it's too broad a term, but this would be a suggestion for the main mod. Celtic civ is fine, but the culture should be separated into Gaul, Celtiberian, Briton and Irish at the very least, maybe also the eastern Scordisci and Galatians and some I've never heard of or forgot.

Whenever i get around to finishing it the next 20 cultures will have Franks, Saxons and Scottish. And then the set of 20 after that will have Irish. Beyond that I have not chosen.

*snip*


A source? Magna Mundi, of course! JK, here's a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutapa

*snip*

You win for mentioninng Magna Mudi. XD
I'm looking forward to the standalone version of the mod.

Either way, I'll see what I can do when I get home tonight if I'm not too tired. (From the drive home and the dropping of people off.)

Is it possible to select the civs in the game with this map? When I go to Custom Scenario, I can only choose options, but all the civs are greyed out.

edit: Forgot to mention that I want the historical starting locations version.

Is it possible to select the civs in the game with this map? When I go to Custom Scenario, I can only choose options, but all the civs are greyed out.

edit: Forgot to mention that I want the historical starting locations version.

I don't think so, you can either have correctly placed civilizations or you have to use the random placement the game provides but can choose freely what to play.

world editor at the start.

Well, I was hoping to update this week, well today on Sunday, but my Great Uncle passed away during the last week and whereas I can't really go to his funeral tomorrow (due to a summer work contract) I am going to be helping around the church today so I won't be by my laptop... [Moreso around a stable internet connection and power outlet to work on the map in world builder mode.]

I'll try to do some piecemeal work over this coming week and get a release out on, or before this coming Saturday (I haven't played C2C for about 3 weeks. :/ )

[Also, Anime North was an awesome event, and I've enjoyed enough of my haul to start working on the map again. Huzzah!]

Edit:
P.S
I apologize for my sporadic work habits with the GEM scenario.
Don't really have an excuse for it.

Work schedule in the warehouse chews up a lot of my time, definitely with overtime on... :(

Sorry to hear that Acularius, my condolences.

I owe you one for shepherding GEM, I wish I had time to edit like you do. I love it. I hope other people get involved in make it even better.
I would be glad to help you if you wish it.

I addressed most of Nameless one's complaints by moving around resources for various civ wonders. I also added Chocolate and Coconut to the map, as well as Barrel Cactus and Peyote. I removed sheep from the americas, as well as wine.

I added Song, Chola, Goth, Swahili, and Israeli Civs, and removed the Phoenician civ.

Included are two versions, one with noble as default difficulty for all civs, and another that has varying difficulties for different civs to address the issue of certain civs becoming ridiculously powerful.

cool, thanks!

@philipschall

There were grapes in the Americas, especially in the Pacific Northwest.

I know, but European settlers found the grapes unsuitable for wine. The distinction is minor, sure, but it's the difference between 1 :) and 1 :food:. I might put them back in later, but for now they're gone (unless I find new info)

JFYI, the maps need to be changed around alot, in the resources and features area, according to the NEW SVN, DH did alot of changes in that area, again JFYI

I'll take care of what needs to be done if I'm given a list.

(side note: how close is everything to v24?)

I don't know if this is a problem with philipschall's maps or just an svn change I missed, but in both versions when I start on Deity, the AI don't begin with any extra units. This is annoying, because I wanted to try out deity starts as a means of preventing certain civs (i.e. Babylon, Celts, Spain) from dying early on when I choose start as minor civs; the deity start gives the AI civs an extra band of h.s., and generally allows them to fight each other off more effectively.

I'll take care of what needs to be done if I'm given a list.

(side note: how close is everything to v24?)

The main changes are that coconuts, date palms and prickly pear are now resources not features. Some resources have been added Peyote, Cocoa and Coco. Barrel cactus is no longer a feature.

I already added coconuts, prickly pear, peyote, and cocoa in the map above. I still need to do date palms, but I cannot find coco anywhere in my svn build. I will re-update tonight after I alter the map to make sure I didn't miss it.

I don't know if this is a problem with philipschall's maps or just an svn change I missed, but in both versions when I start on Deity, the AI don't begin with any extra units. This is annoying, because I wanted to try out deity starts as a means of preventing certain civs (i.e. Babylon, Celts, Spain) from dying early on when I choose start as minor civs; the deity start gives the AI civs an extra band of h.s., and generally allows them to fight each other off more effectively.

That's part of the map. Those civs are in the crowded european and middle eastern start, not everyone is supposed to survive there - that's the reason why minor start is active in the first place.

I already added coconuts, prickly pear, peyote, and cocoa in the map above. I still need to do date palms, but I cannot find coco anywhere in my svn build. I will re-update tonight after I alter the map to make sure I didn't miss it.
There is also no natural gas and no fossils. Pomegranate is also a new resource.

I already added coconuts, prickly pear, peyote, and cocoa in the map above. I still need to do date palms, but I cannot find coco anywhere in my svn build. I will re-update tonight after I alter the map to make sure I didn't miss it.

It is coca. Seep sea thermal vents were also added but they don't look right.

Thermal vents are already in

I don't know if this is a problem with philipschall's maps or just an svn change I missed, but in both versions when I start on Deity, the AI don't begin with any extra units. This is annoying, because I wanted to try out deity starts as a means of preventing certain civs (i.e. Babylon, Celts, Spain) from dying early on when I choose start as minor civs; the deity start gives the AI civs an extra band of h.s., and generally allows them to fight each other off more effectively.

Strictly speaking, GEM is a scenario not a map, and scenarios include the entier starting position (including units), so bonuses from difficulty don't apply (essentially because it starts the program after that phase of map initialisation)

Strictly speaking, GEM is a scenario not a map, and scenarios include the entier starting position (including units), so bonuses from difficulty don't apply (essentially because it starts the program after that phase of map initialisation)

Er, well, I haven't played Acularius' version in some time but I know for a fact that the difficulty bonuses applied for it, so I guess it really is just a problem with philpschall's version then.

Just to have it posted here too, because I think it would be helpful: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11564712&postcount=13 is a small tool that will tell you if your scenario misses any resources. It is always up-to-date with whatever C2C version you have currently installed (it should technically work for any mod) and is pretty easy to use.

@Acularius

Posted on Behalf of StrategyOnly
To start the modding process, I will take a test drive helping Acularius (if he is open to idea) to spruce up the GEM C2C map and it's sub-forum, helping with resource placement, and fine-tuning. I will also port over the Accurate Earth Map on my own (if you know someone available to offer advice), since I am probably qualified to edit it to work by myself , since I made a port of early GEM myself for ROM and then AND, and then C2C, I should have floated it earlier. (It might be nice to have someone champion the standard map thread as well.)

I guess the warriors everyone starts with should be changed to Brutes now?

After being stuck in a hot warehouse for a couple of days (still in the process of being stuck there) I have come to see a few changes being done.

I'll probably agree to the proposal that was floated in my mail.
Generally my openng plans for this map was to keep it fairly up to date (which is hard to do atm with overtime on and I'm contracted to do a fair bit... and I want the extra hours since tuition does not pay for itself.)

I haven't even touched C2C in at least a month and a half by now, or from when I last updated (was the last time I was able to work with the map).

Sounds like a solid plan. I'm going to be busy up until AT LEAST July, and even ater then it is up in the air if I will have time to contribute. I don't mind doing research though and from the SVN notes I was glad to see the introduction of the Cholas (nominally a kingdom for South India) and the Song Dynasty, which is based in South China, not by choice though. :P )

I'd give it the green light, I can at least give input for the next while, if only sporadically.

Added Natural Gas, Pomegranates, Date Palms. Changed terrain of western Persia. One version has altered difficulties, the other has everyone at noble.

Edit: Fixed a thing.

Hello,

The GEM maps need change the start year. Actually starts at 12000 BC but this is wrong because at turn 500 in eternity gamespeed we are in 6000 AD. If start around 40000 BC i think will work well.

My map has that change already included.

My map has that change already included.

The map is still lacking:
Pistachio (probably fits best between Carthage and India + one resource somewhere in SW northern america)
Donkey
Resin (add in forest area where other resources are lacking, siberia might be an idea)

Hello,

The GEM maps need change the start year. Actually starts at 12000 BC but this is wrong because at turn 500 in eternity gamespeed we are in 6000 AD. If start around 40000 BC i think will work well.

Depends what the pace of the latter eras are, but, I haven't played lately and I SHOULD be able to take a look after work this morning when I come back in the afternoon.

I can't remember the specifics but I think the time was rebalanced lately so 12000BC roughly worked, but may have been put obselete, I don't know. *shrug*

That and different variable will affect tech research, such as the propensity of the AI to go to war (agressive AI). I believe.

Either way, time to write a PM and get my butt off to work.

I agree with pushing the date back for a prehistoric start. It would be nice to start with ~ 14,000 bc, since that was the date of the last mini-ice age. I think we might consider that.

I will probably want to help with a modern, near future scenario at some point. for those who want to start talking about ideas.

An historic one. If "modern" is a must, then WW1 or WW2. If sooner, better. An idea. :)

An historic one. If "modern" is a must, then WW1 or WW2. If sooner, better. An idea. :)

I like the idea of WWII scenario. It is prob the most popular next to Rome.

a Near Future ( most plausible speculative) would be interesting to me (techs, world war scenarios, units of the next 10-30 years) - Later Digital Age for C2C as it stands now.

WW II sounds very good :)
As for the near future scenario, you could probably use the "next war" scenario from the correspondent mod

Updates
- Aborigine culture linked to Fine Clay and Australian linked to Gold.

Map should probably be updated accordingly, especially to allow Yagan to build his own culture wonder (i.e. fine clay near aborigine spawn)

Also @philipschall: I like your new placement of civs in the middle eastern area (playing as egypt) the new starts for egypt, byzant, israel and arabia are really nice (haven't explored much beyond the "purple mesopotamian wall" yet) even though the tiles north of thebes (nile delta) will probably never be worked by a city unless you don't care about overlapping city working radiuses.

Also my first try without "start as minor" because I felt it was made useless by the new tribal defenders (they're great!). It's actually quite fun. When you have actual contact with other civs early you can get some nice headstart reputation with them by helping them in wars even though you can't do any real trade or diplomacy yet. Though it limits my exploration by the previously mentioned mesopotamian wall of culture borders, but that's fine. Jerusalem already fell for blocking me off the arabian peninsula and either babylon or assyria will follow for keeping me out of mainland europe/asia.

Thanks samin. I try to make the placement historically accurate. I know I need to update resource placement (though I'm kinda confused about the Resin resource... Wikipedia says it refers to Frankincense and Myrrh, but those would be covered under incense IMO. Kinda confusing.)

I'm bringing out an update today, with many of your recent changes philipchall, as for resin, I'm treating it as both the resin for seals on wooden ships (saw a reference to it on the 'shipwright' I believe) and as incense, but generally I'm sprinkling them throughout the heavily wooded areas of the world and keeping them close to the Prime Timber resource.

Been working on updating the map for the last hour and a half, and for some reason I had a version before my thermal vents (noticed after the fact), and re added them in.

Time for a big update in the Pre Columbian map!
Probably the last time I'll post this scenario as just a creation of myself as I'm looking to working together with rightfuture, GreatLordofPie and if philischall is up for it for a team... most likely dealing with all da maps.

AND WE ARE LOOKING FOR A CHAMPION FOR THE GLORIOUS STANDARD SIZE MAP!

Now, onto what you really want.

Changlog 06-24-2012

RESOURCES:

-Cocoa : Replaced coffee in the Americas, sprinkled a bit more throughout the Americas.

-Coconut: philipschall initially, and then I sprinkled a bit more, the heaviest concentration world wide is in Northern India.

-Date Palm: philipschall's fixes

-Deep Sea Vents: Due to an older version of map I was working on, re added them in.

-Donkey: Highest Concentration in Africa, sprinkled throughout the Old World.

-Natural Gas: philipschall's fixes

-Peyote and Prickly Pear: philipschall's fixes

-Pistachio: Sprinkled throughout the Middle East

-Pomegranate: philipschall's fixes

-Resin: Sprinkled throughout the world.



CULTURE RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS: (I'll make sure to mark them if philischall did them, granted I did a lot of changes. XD)

-Ainu: Changes Seals to furs (philipschall's fixes)

-Aztec: Sprinled Obsidian throughout the Americas, generally near currently active volcanoes.

-Benin: Wheat added

-Byzantine: Iron added around Constantinople.

-Greek: Changed Bauxite ore to marble ((philipschall's fixes), moved Bauxite ore north a bit (myself)

-Hausa: Did some digging around and there is mention of the dye process and I think native growth of indigo, Pre Columbian, so I tacked some Dye resources in the Hausa area.

-Indonesian: Some pearls originally near S.E Borneo, but I tacked some more around the Indonesian area.

-Kongo: Prime Timber added to the African Jungle regions, and I sprinkled a bit more around the heavily wooded areas of the world.

-Minoan: Placed some cows on Crete, probably won't solve the problem of being able to build the Minoan culture in Athens.

-Mutapa: Found some sources that referenced gold mining near the ancient city of Grand Zimbabwe, and I tacked some gold in the ZImbabwe area as requested.

-Romans: Olives in North Italy

-Somali: Added Hemp (philipschall's fixes)

-Swahili: Sprinkled some fish along the coast of East Africa.

-Tupi: Let there be squash in Brazil.

-Zapotec: Gold in Mexico. (philipschall's fixes)


CIVILIZATIONS:

ADDED:
- Chola (philipschall's fixes)

- Swahili (philipschall's fixes)

- Xiongnu

- Yue and Yangshao, described below.

MOVED/REPLACED/CHANGED:

-Replaced the Turks with the Uzbeks

-Replaced China with Yangshao

-Moved China to Guangzhou area, renamed Yue tribe, and lead by Taizu ((philipschall's fixes for the name)

-Moved Egypt further up the Nile (philipschall's fixes)

-Moved Sumeria (philipschall's fixes)

-Moved Persia (philipschall's fixes)

-Pheonicians replaced with Israel and moved south (philipschall's fixes)

-Byzantine original start position (philipschall's fixes)

REMOVED:

Philipines: Met the chopping block to fit in something else, I shall miss it. We're at 50 civs total now after removing it.


Enjoy all!

P.S WE ARE AT 50 CIVS NOW! WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

To the FIRST POST!

I'll update the SVN (if nobody else beats me to it). I'm thinking I should REMOVE the other variants that are not updated as they will just cause confusion right?

I'll update the SVN (if nobody else beats me to it). I'm thinking I should REMOVE the other variants that are not updated as they will just cause confusion right?
Don't update yet, I have to fix the Ainu, when going around the text files I seem to removed their 'ENDPLAYER" bit.
EDIT: FIXED AND REUPLOADED THE FILE

What other variants?
The other versions? I just have them up just in case people want to use them for a specific version.

Don't update yet, I have to fix the Ainu, when going around the text files I seem to removed their 'ENDPLAYER" bit.
EDIT: FIXED AND REUPLOADED THE FILE

What other variants?
The other versions? I just have them up just in case people want to use them for a specific version.

Just tell me which one(s) are current and should be in the SVN and I'll make sure it/they are. Thanks.

Just tell me which one(s) are current and should be in the SVN and I'll make sure it/they are. Thanks.

Always the latest to date essentially, June 24th, 2012. It is located in the first post in the attachments.

Most importantly, have fun.

Once you have unrared the file you then take the 3 maps and place them in the Public Maps folder, correct? I just can't leave the Acularius folder in there and expect it to work right?

JosEPh

Once you have unrared the file you then take the 3 maps and place them in the Public Maps folder, correct? I just can't leave the Acularius folder in there and expect it to work right?

JosEPh

So all 3 maps in the RAR are now fully up to date?

It is looks like invalid Files. I cant download now, the old one i can.

Once you have unrared the file you then take the 3 maps and place them in the Public Maps folder, correct? I just can't leave the Acularius folder in there and expect it to work right?

JosEPh
I just tack on numbers on the end so it doesn't get picked on by the SVN update, a simple 06242012 should suffice. (Month/Day/Year)
I just don't know if it will bypass the folder and read the maps, never tried that.

So all 3 maps in the RAR are now fully up to date?

THey should be now, aside from the Apache leader named 'Acularius' which I feel like keeping for now. :P

I also should have fixed the Pre Columbian start in terms of its starting year, apparently it missed out the fix.

Any chance we can get a Europe cut-out of your awesome map Acularius? ;)

I would love to try out the updated map but I don't have SVN version so it's not going to work for me.

Also, I am willing to continue to work on the Standard map! I just got frustrated with civs being in contact with other civs for no reason! Lastly, any idea when Nomad start might be a full functioning feature?

It is strange, i have SVN. When i copy the new maps inside, then after start it is fall out from game.
When i look the maps with SVN then they have "?". What i can do?

Any chance we can get a Europe cut-out of your awesome map Acularius? ;)

I would love to try out the updated map but I don't have SVN version so it's not going to work for me.

Also, I am willing to continue to work on the Standard map! I just got frustrated with civs being in contact with other civs for no reason! Lastly, any idea when Nomad start might be a full functioning feature?
I recommend this program in the attachment.
I use it as a clean sweep, then I proceed to add civs through the text editor.

As for the Nomad start, that is not my area of expertise at all, I just play around with the Giant Earth Map.

As for a Europe cut out, that would be a LOT of work. I don't see myself having any time for that soon. Personally I wouldn't mind an Eurasia map getting ze touch ups.
Maybe someone will champion the Europe cutout map.

It is strange, i have SVN. When i copy the new maps inside, then after start it is fall out from game.
When i look the maps with SVN then they have "?". What i can do?

Can you be a little more specific, I don't really understand the nature of the question other than a possible CTD.
First I would check 'properties' of the C2C SVN folder and make sure it is at LEAST 2959, or the last update that added in the Uzbek and Xiongnu civs.

As far as I understand, you have a CTD on trying to load the map, and the SVN reads it as a different file.
I would recommend extracting the files outside of the folder, tacking on a random number (like 06242012) and then cut and paste them into your 'privatemap' folder of the C2C SVN folder.
[You could also rename them entirely as 'JOEBOB 50 CIVS' or so on and so forth]

The above directions should solve your problems, if you continue to have further problems. Drop by with more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.
Also, what civilization are you choosing?

I recommend this program in the attachment.
I use it as a clean sweep, then I proceed to add civs through the text editor.

As for the Nomad start, that is not my area of expertise at all, I just play around with the Giant Earth Map.

As for a Europe cut out, that would be a LOT of work. I don't see myself having any time for that soon. Personally I wouldn't mind an Eurasia map getting ze touch ups.
Maybe someone will champion the Europe cutout map.

Thank you that will probably make me a lot less frustrated when working on that map! There is no easy way to just cut-out the appropriate section of the GEM map? Sorry, I thought it was possible I just don't understand how it is done.

About nomad, I was just very interested in that. Hopefully some one will have some information for me. I just think it would really help the issue of the Standard map not having enough space for each civ to start.

Thank you that will probably make me a lot less frustrated when working on that map! There is no easy way to just cut-out the appropriate section of the GEM map? Sorry, I thought it was possible I just don't understand how it is done.

About nomad, I was just very interested in that. Hopefully some one will have some information for me. I just think it would really help the issue of the Standard map not having enough space for each civ to start.


As far as I know, they are working on 'Multimaps' and then they will move on to Nomad, or they are working on both and I'm a confused man. :P

Edit: I can't figure out why the Yue Civ does not work. I see it settled, I just don't know how I can get to play it. XD

Thanks acu for including all my changes. Once supply limits and nomad start are integrated, this will truly be the best map of CIV4.

I shall (not because philip manged to post before me) spam, but I swear in my GEM game I have going I have volcanoes just spawning and destroying resources at will...

Playing Rome, but I've had my iron destroyed (replaced by obsidian), some other resource (replaced by rocky terrain and obsidian, and my coastal fish spot... was... you guessed it, replaced by a volcano.)

Well... Rome is no longer a coastal city now.


Is there a way to have volcanoes optional like storms? This is getting silly.

@Philip
The work was already done, so I figure I would just put them in. I tried to keep tabs on which were what you originally placed.

Quick question, where about did you place the Goth civilization and the Maori?

Quick question, where about did you place the Goth civilization and the Maori?

Goths are not in it as far I as I can recall and I believe I put the Maori on New Guinea (Felt they would fare better there than on New Zealand, greater chance of expanding into the spice islands at least.

Okay cool thank you. Would you have any opinions on where the Goths would go?

Okay cool thank you. Would you have any opinions on where the Goths would go?
Well, they came through Europe as a Migratory people, so you could theoretically place them anywhere along their expansion path although http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth would help you out... generally anywhere from Poland to Hungary from what I can tell.