Religion Mod :jesus: vs :satan:

In this mod, I have basicly changed the original civs into religions..
I did have a problem with the leaders. I tought that someone might disagree with the leader choise, but I have made God the leader of most civs, that should fix that problem... :D

Here is the 0.2 version.
Im sorry for the delay, but here it is.. :D

Download link to Religion mod v0.2 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Religionmodv0.2.zip)

Ive included a readme in the zipfile, but I have also put some of it out here so that you can see what changes has been done..


Changes in v0.1

Terrain:Jungle - Holy Jungle
Resources: Religious Artifacts
Civs:
Barbarians - Ateists
Christianity
Jewism
Islam
Hinduism
Buddhism
Egyptian Mytology
Norrön Mytology
African Mytology
Greek Mythology
Chatolics
Protestants
Baptists
Mormonism
Methodists
Jehovas witnesses

Goverments:
Anarchy - Ateism
other Govs:
Ateism
Monotheism
Polytheism
No God
(Democracy is still there but you cant get it before after youve researched
Intergrated defence. This is supposed to show that they use a long time to turn
against Religion.)

Other then that there are no changes worth mentoning.

Changes in v0.2

Goverments:
Removed Democracy

Resources:
Added "Belief" as a new resource

Units:
Added a Mystic in the ancient era.
Added a Munk in the middle ages.
Added a Missionary in the Industrial Ages.
Added a Doomsday Prophet in the Modern ages.

Improvements and Wonders:
Changed Palace into tempel

General settings:
City Size level names changed to: Shrine, Sancturay and Tempel

Terrain:
Holy Jungle changed back to Jungle.
Belief can be found on all terrains exept coast, sea and ocean.
Plains Changed to Holy Ground. Religious Artifacts can be found on the Holy Ground.

Other then that there are no changes worth mentoning.


Upcoming Plans about v0.3:

What to do Certanity that it will be done
----------- ------------------------------
Add more units. 90%
Make resource graphics. 95%
Add Civilopedia text 40%
Add Pediaicons 15%
Leaderheads 20%
More resorces 60%
Redo some of the tech tree 25%


There may be some more as well, but I havent got anything more planned, so there I
need ideas from you guys!!

Do you considder Democracy to be a Religion?

No, If you saw the readme, you would see that I ment democracy to be the governemnt where you could release yourself from "the grasps of religion".

Very interesting i've had a look at it in the editor and hope to find time to playtest

Are you sure this is a mod? Not a scenario?

its a mod baecause there is no scenario to play out its up to the player how the game goes where as if it was a scenario for eg about WW1 the player has to go along with the war or its rather pointless downloading

Originally posted by Sir John
No, If you saw the readme, you would see that I ment democracy to be the governemnt where you could release yourself from "the grasps of religion".
Hmm... This sounds like an insult against religion.

Originally posted by anonymous4401

Hmm... This sounds like an insult against religion.

not realy. Im religious myself, but I dont think Religion and Government should be to mixed up in each other...

That was what I meant...;)

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess I was on OT too long. :crazyeyes: By the way, it's spelled "Atheist" not "Ateist", "Catholic" not "Chatolics", "Mythology" not "Mytology", "Norse" not "Norron", and there's no such thing as "Jewism". It's Judaism.

i dnt see why democracy is there : surely Atheism is "free from the grasp of religion"

Yeah. It's quite possible to have democracy and religion. Early America is a prime example. Now that the anti-religious folks have settled in, trying to remove God from every facet of American life, it is no longer so. :(

Well, just remember that not all Americans are Judeo-Christians, or Muslims.


Though, this probably isn't the thread for such a discussion or debate.

Democracy though is not a religion, and shouldn't be a religion "civ" in this mod, in my opinion.

While Atheism isn't technically a religion either, it is someone who doesn't believe in it, and should be included, instead of Democracy.

Currently I am on Vacation and I cant reach the files, but when I get home (about next monday) I will fix the errors..

Currently I am on Vacation and I cant reach the files, but when I get home (about next monday) I will fix the errors.. I will remove democracy

oops, the server isnt quite good at the moment...

No ofense, but you should have polished this up before releasing it, you have A LOT of errors and stuff.

Originally posted by Procifica
While Atheism isn't technically a religion either, it is someone who doesn't believe in it, and should be included, instead of Democracy.

an atheist isn't someone who doesn't believe in god or religion, an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in this reality. they don't even believe they exist

I will polish it up when I get back, ther reason I didnt do it before I released it was that I wasnt sure if people would actually like the idea for a mod and Im not very happy about making a mod wich noone likes...

err.. sorry double post

Originally posted by Sa~Craig


an atheist isn't someone who doesn't believe in god or religion, an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in this reality. they don't even believe they exist

Huh? Since when? Now I know the Civ3 forums are not the best place for this but where did you get that idea from?

Webster's New World Dictionary has it defined as:

atheism: the belief that there is no God

Where you got you're idea from, I have no clue. :confused:

Ill release v0.2 today... I think Ill add units as well...

Srry, I didnt do it, Ill probably do it today then..

My internet is back up and the new version is coming today, promise...

It have 4 new units and 1 new tech. It also has some other minor changes wich I will put up a list on when I release the mod later today.

Here is the new version...

you might offend a few people (not me) by having holy wars, people fighting against muslims might not be the best mod at the moment......

Well, Civlization is built up so that you dont have to fight...
If you dont want to fight the muslims then dont choose them in the game.. :D

Originally posted by Sa~Craig


an atheist isn't someone who doesn't believe in god or religion, an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in this reality. they don't even believe they exist

You described "nihilists". All nihilists are surely atheists, but they are a very small portion. Atheists believe that there isn't any spiritual thing. Most of them are materialists.

Atheists are divide into two groups. You have atheists who dont belive in anything and you hav atheists who belive that there ar esome force there, just not God...

BTW: Can somone please give som feedback on the new version??

BTW: Kindred72 is making a monk that looks like a monk :D and I will add it as soon as its finished..

Nihilists would make good barb's. Materialists, or Secularists as they prefer to call themselves (I call 'em Apathists), may make a good late game replacement to Democracy. All religions fall to that pathetic excuse of an existence sooner or later. The process is called apostacy, and the West reeks of it. Almost makes me want to convert to Islam. At least it's obvious they believe in something other than their own feeble selves.

Speaking of materialism, statism (yet another form of atheism), the belief that the government is (or should be) omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, may make a good civ. You may want to divide it into it's main denominations: fascism and socialism (sorry, socies, but you are a religion unto yourself). Along those lines, how about dividing Islam into Sunnism and Shi'ism. And what do you mean by 'Christianity'? All sects of Yeshuah worshippers welcome?

By christianity I mean those that are lutheranians. We have them in our country as Statskirka (statechurch) I england they are the anglican and so on... Good idea with materialists...

A couple of minor points:

Atheists, for the record, do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. Since this is a *religious* mod, I can see us as barbarians, easily (but only in the context that this is a religious mod, mind you. 'Atheist' does not, and never has meant 'amoral').

Equating Christianity *solely* with Lutheranism is quite insulting to other Christians, not to mention extremely inaccurate. Best to keep it as representing Christianity in general, which, even though it has a multitude of differences, does have core beliefs in common.


Marc

One more point:

You're right. There are no atheists on a sinking ship. Being practical minded, we managed to get on the life boats first, while all the theists were praying for their god(s) to rescue them. :0)


Marc

You might want to change "Jewism" to Judaism or Semitism and "Islam" to Islamicism. Just a thought. Also Mormons, Methodists, Baptists and Jehova's Witnesses are American derivatives of European Protestants. And it would be cool to include Confuscianism in the bunch, as it enjoyed wide popularity during the Middle Ages in the East. Looks like it could potentially be a very interesting MOD.

This MOD has a quite decent (maybe even great) idea as a foundation, but I feel the implementaion leaves much to be desired.

May I suggest a new setup for the reliious groups? It might help you in the long run.

So, I guess keeping Atheists as barbarians makes sence.

Then, you could go by the cultural groups thingy, and implement those as following:

christianity cultural group:

- Catholics
- Orthodox
- Protestants

Middle east of sorts cultural group

- Jews
- Shia Islam
- Sunni Islam

Eastern cultural group

- Hindu
- Buddhists
- Confucians
- Sikh

Pagan cultural group

- Egyptian pagans
- Norse pagans
- Greek pagans
- African pagans

Lutheranista, anglikans, mormons, jehowa witnesses, methodist, episcopians etc. etc. are just branches of the Protestant christians, not religions per se. So, you shouldn't include them.

If you include lutheranists, anglikans, mormons etc. you should also include Koptes, Deists, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention the enormous number of branches for the eastern religions.

For todays major religious groups throughout the world, you might want to check out This little site (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

Originally posted by tmarcl
One more point:

You're right. There are no atheists on a sinking ship. Being practical minded, we managed to get on the life boats first, while all the theists were praying for their god(s) to rescue them. :0)


Marc

To rescue us? I'd be praying that you'd be forgiven for beating me up to get my lifeboat!

confusion is not a religion !! it's a way of life ;), it's not a religion if only a sect ! Since when do Philosophers come up with new religions?

I'm atheist ... um and don't think I'm Barbaric or even close!?!

Scientology that be an interesting civ !!! :)

I have been away for a little while now, but I will work on the mod today and yiu all have great ideas for religions to add in. I will definitivly use the cultural groups. I will include alot of branches and I will go away from the names as christians and and things like that and concentrate more on the real names of the different branches and stuff.

I like that you are giving me ideas for civs as the first set of names was just temporary... Waht I would like now is ideas and responses to the other changes I've done.. What do you think of the resources and terrains? Should anything be changed added??
Im glad some of you like the mod... Soem new unit graphics will sonn be finished as soon as the graphics is done.

I have tought about adding UU's to the mod, but for most of the civs, I dont have a clue. So please help me on this. I will put up a newer version with corected and changed civnames soon...

BTW: To say that mormonism is a branch of protestantism is wrong. According to the mormon belife, The church that the mormons have is the same as jesus ahad on his time with apostles, prophets and so on. So actually they have much more in common with jewism then "protestantism". The mormons is not a branch of any realigion since the founder never joined any other church.

BTW angain: Should I include Satanists in the mod?? They are a religion, but Im not sure if they would be appriciated... I have tought about using them for barbs but atheists fits better...

I'd definetly that be good for a change !! I'd play them but you should give that civ a good touch of evil ;) satanists

Just let me get one thing straight before I start deleting old files to make room for this MOD... the civilizations are the same as they are normally in game, or are they like Heavenly Civ's, and Hellbound Races? :confused: Just curious, and oh yeah you left out Orthodox religions, Confucionsim (is that spelled right), Daoism, and others just to mention a few. :D As well as the little known Scientology! (Maybe you could even add religions yet to come! Such as Chrislam!!!)

dude it is not a religion look at my post earlier, Confucius was a philosopher and taught a way of life, which wasn't and isn't a religion!!!! but hey if you life fiction ...
Daoism is a good one to add

I will add Orthodox religions as well.. I just forgot it the first versions...

@xghost: You dont need to delete any files. The mod doesnt replace anything. It just adds...

Oops, double post..

Just to make it perfectly clear what ateism is:
BTW: This is fact, not my opinion.

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: This is a highly disparate group and not a single religion. Although atheists are a small subset of this grouping, this category is not synonymous with atheism. Atheists actually make up less than one-tenth of one percent of the population in many countries where large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (7.5% nonreligious) and Australia (15% nonreligious).

One portion of this broad grouping includes those who are best described as "nonreligious," i.e., those who are essentially passive with regards to religion, generally affirming neither belief nor disbelief. They may be neither contemplative about philosophy and spirituality nor involved in a religious/faith/philosophical community. Although a certain percentage of people in many countries classify themselves as nonreligious in surveys, there are few data indicating how many of these fit the passive "nonreligious" criteria described above, versus those who actually do contemplate such matters, but simply have their own personal philosophy and no stated affiliation with an organized religion.

For the purposes of this list, this grouping also includes more proactive or well-defined philosophies such as secular humanism, atheism, agnosticism, deism, pantheism, freethought, etc., most of which can be classified as religions in the sociological sense, albeit secular religions.

The "Secular/Nonreligious/etc." category is probably the most speculative estimate in this list, as this segment of society is difficult to count. The vast majority in this grouping are not aligned with any kind of membership organization. Most figures come from census and survey data, which most countries conduct only infrequently.

The highest figure we have for "Nonreligious" is 20% of the world population, or about 1.2 billion: "Over 20 percent of the world's population does not claim any allegiance to a religion. Most are agnostics. Others are atheists, who deny the existence of God." (O'Brien, Joanne & Martin Palmer. The State of Religion Atlas. Simon & Schuster: New York (1993). Pg 41.) But such a high figure is difficult to support with current country-by-country statistics, and perhaps reflects Communist-era official government statistics. Most current estimates of the world number of secular/nonreligious/agnostic/atheist/etc. are between 800 and 1 billion.

Estimates for atheism alone range from 200 to 240 million. But these come primarily from China and former Soviet Union nations (especially Russia). Prior to Communist takeovers of these regions and government attempts to eradicate religion, both places had very high levels of affiliation with organized religions (especially Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism), as well as high levels of participation in and belief in traditional local traditions such as shamanism, ancestor ceremonies, spiritism, etc. Since the fall of Communism in former Soviet nations and the relaxation of anti-religious policies in China, observed religious affiliation and activity has increased dramatically, especially in Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam.

China probably does have the largest number of actual atheists of any country in the world and many Russians clearly remain atheists. But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as atheists or nonreligious during Communist-era USSR and by the current Chinese government are actually atheists according to their personal beliefs, and how many are unregistered religious adherents or participants in less-organized traditional systems that are oriented around ancestors, animism, shamanism, etc. Many people are unaware, for instance, that China has one of the largest, most active Christian communities in the world, and that in many former Soviet nations religions such as shamanism, Islam and Russian Orthodoxy remained even while official government reports announced the elimination of religion in these regions.

In the Western world, Europe is by far the place with the most self-avowed nonreligious, atheists and agnostics, with the nonreligious proportion of the population particularly high in Scandinavia. The Encyclopedia Britannica reports approximately 41 million atheists in Europe. The self-described nonreligious segment of society in Australia and New Zealand is also high, at around 15%. In Australia less than a tenth of one percent described themselves as atheists in the latest national census (1996). In the U.S. about 7.5% of the population describe themselves as nonreligious, 0.7% describe themselves as agnostic, and a smaller number describe themselves as atheist (Kosmin, National Survey of Religious Identification, 1990).

All those who profess religious belief are not necessarily registered members of a church or denomination, but in the U.S. the majority of professed Christians and adherents of other religions are also officially affiliated with an organization. The majority of agnostics, atheists and of course nonreligious are not members of an organization associated with their position.

It may also be noted that the estimated figures presented in this particular "Major Religions" summary list are based on self-identification. Among all groups there exists a proportion (sometimes significant and sometimes small) which are only nominal adherents. This segment may identify themselves as members of a certain religion and accept the religion as their primary philosophical system, yet not actively practice the religion in the normative sense. This segment may be thought of as being functionally nonreligious or "secularized," but this segment is not what is meant by the "nonreligious" category on this Major Religious list. Accurate estimates of the size of this group are difficult to obtain because national government censuses only ask about preferred affiliation, not about religious practice. There are data available from non-census sampling surveys that ask about practice and belief, but these are usually limited in scope to narrow questions such as church attendance, and do not entirely reveal the proportion of society which is non-attending, but nevertheless privately practicing and/or believing. In many countries (Germany is a good example) there is also segment of the population which is counted as adherents of a religion, but which do not personally profess belief in that religion. (Adherents.com has some such data in its main list under "attendance" and under "poll".) See also: Top 10 Countries with Most Atheists.

The use of the term "nonreligious" or "secular" here refers to belief or participation in systems which are not traditionally labeled "religions." Of course, in the absence of traditional religions, society exhibits the same behavioral, social and psychological phenomena associated with religious cultures, but in association with secular, political, ethnic, commercial or other systems. Marxism and Maoism, for instance, had their scriptures, authority, symbolism, liturgy, clergy, prophets, proselyting, etc. Sports, art, patriotism, music, drugs, mass media and social causes have all been observed to fulfill roles similar to religion in the lives of individuals -- capturing the imagination and serving as a source of values, beliefs and social interaction. In a broader sense, sociologists point out that there are no truly "secular societies," and that the word "nonreligious" is a misnomer. Sociologically speaking, "nonreligious" people are simply those who derive their worldview and value system primarily from alternative, secular, cultural or otherwise nonrevealed systems ("religions") rather than traditional religious systems. Like traditional religions, secular systems (such as Communism, Platonism, Freudian psychology, Nazism, pantheism, atheism, nationalism, etc.) typically have favored spokespeople and typically claim to present a universally valid and applicable Truth. Like traditional religions, secular systems are subject to both rapid and gradual changes in popularity, modification, and extinction.

Originally posted by Sir John
I will add Orthodox religions as well.. I just forgot it the first versions...

@xghost: You dont need to delete any files. The mod doesnt replace anything. It just adds...

No, I mean I had to make room for it on my hard drive dude! I'm almost out of space, but luckily I just bought about eight more gigs, so I should be set for about another thousand or so mods. :D And this MOD just has the old normal civs, right?

Originally posted by anonymous4401


To rescue us? I'd be praying that you'd be forgiven for beating me up to get my lifeboat!

I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on this with you. Just one thing, though-Atheist doesn't mean Amoral.

To the person who thought Atheists weren't barbarians-in the real world, I agree with you 100%. In this context, though, it does make sense. I do object in that it implies that Atheists are anti-theist, as opposed to being just people who don't believe in the supernatural, however that's offset (in this case only!) by the fact that if all the cultures are religious, the only thing that would work for barbarian is a non-religious belief.

Satanism was also suggested, but again, that's not accurate. I think you (the person who suggested Satanism, not Anonymous4401) are making a couple of mistaken assumptions:

1) That Satanism (at least the Official Church of Satan) is the exact opposite of Christianity-it's not. In fact Satanists don't even believe in the Christian god. They believe that 'Satan' refers to an older meaning, and that Christians co-opted it.

2) That Christianity 'right' and therefore, if something is opposed (see point 1) it must be 'wrong' or, in the context of the mod, barbaric.

Marc

@xghost: It doesnt have the old civs. The civs are replaced with religions.... Thats kind of the point with the mod.

@tmarcl: AFAIK satanists belive in both god and satan but they choose to be on satans side.

It seems to me that you are converting the default civs into their kind of religion.. well somewhat. You're missing out on several large religions which are practiced throughout the world.

Western:
Celtic Druidism (Brittish Isles/North America)
Orthodix (Europe/Russia/Middle East)

Middle Eastern:
Janaism (Middle Eastern/Central Asia)
Coptic Christianity (Egypt/Libya/Syria)

Eastern:
Baha'i'sm (Central Asia)
Mandarin (Ancient China)
Sikhism (India/Central Asia)
Shintoism (Japan)

Native American:
Aztec Paganism (Central America)
Incan Paganism (South America)

It is also quite strang how you arranged the Christian religion. All affiliations would work as Christianity, but if divided the main sects of Christianity would be:

Catholicism
Coptic
Mormonism
Orthodox
Protestant

Baptists and Methodists are Protestant sects. There isn't enough Jahova's Witnesses to make a dominant sect.

Oh and for how you have the governments different types of religions you should have put:

Atheism (No God) - Anarchy
Monotheism (One God) - Monarchy
Polytheism (Many gods) - Democracy
Animalistic Polytheism (Many animal-like gods) - Democracy2
Patronistic Polytheism (Many gods yet one patron god) - Republic
Mandatism (Leader is main god) - Communism/Despotism

This post didn't mean to be mean. It's basically just comments and what would be more sensible to me and perhaps other civ'ers. I like your main idea though. I hope this helps a little.

:goodjob:

Very good ideas there mobilize, escpesially the governments.. I will look into the civs, but Im not going t include religions that hardly doesent exist or that doesnt exist at all anymore.. But I will se into it. Orthodox id ofcourse coming up and sp is baha'i'sm... Its nice that you replie to the civs but I would like some replies to the other aspects of the mod as well...

as it seems that people will begin to list all the religions the world can handle it may be an idea to separate them into ages like have an ancient religions mod a medevil religions mod and a modern religions mod. this is just an idea and will be time consuming

hmm.. That gave me an idea for a possible change... to use the governemnts as religions and let the normal civs be normal... This would include a lot of governments, but it would enable me to make the different religions come intoo different ages...

Thx for the idea Craig.. :D

What do you thing guys? should I do that?

religous conversions ey? i like it

Originally posted by Sir John

@tmarcl: AFAIK satanists belive in both god and satan but they choose to be on satans side. [/B]

I apologize for the time between posts. I don't check here all that often.

In fiction, yes, Satanists worship the Christian devil, and acknowledge the existence of the Christian god. In reality, however, Satanists don't acknowledge the validity of any portion of Christianity.

It's confusing, and I think Anton LeVay was just trying to get people upset, but it's the truth. Satanists view 'Satan' as an ancient force that has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. In fact, I'm not certain they consider 'Satan' to even be sentient, but don't quote me on that.

Marc

Originally posted by Mobilize


Baptists and Methodists are Protestant sects. There aren't enough Jehova's Witnesses to make a dominant sect.




I'd be curious to know how many you'd consider necessary for them to be dominant. They're certainly well known enough to be considered, IMO.



Oh and for how you have the governments different types of religions you should have put:

Atheism (No God) - Anarchy
Monotheism (One God) - Monarchy
Polytheism (Many gods) - Democracy
Animalistic Polytheism (Many animal-like gods) - Democracy2
Patronistic Polytheism (Many gods yet one patron god) - Republic
Mandatism (Leader is main god) - Communism/Despotism



The only disagreement I have with these is that I think you're assuming 'many gods' is the same as having one person one vote (democracy). Early polytheism was very feudal. The lesser gods were responsible to the higher gods, much in the same way that nobles are responsible to kings, and so would probably be better candidates for Monarchy. In Monotheism, you begin to see religious laws being written down, and everyone, including the ruler, is subject to them, so would probably be a better candidate for Democracy.

Marc

-=:Tmarcl, You are right, but I meant those governments to be leader-based.

-Atheism, there's no God/gods.. thus no leader.
-Monotheism, one God.. one leader.
-Polytheism, many gods.. the fact that it's the people who chose for themselves, and not representatives like a Republic.
-Patronistic Polytheism, one main God for certain groups of people yet the exhistence of other gods, thus the patron God is the representative.
-Mandatism, your main God for now is the leader, he has absolute control.

I see what your saying but this is how I layed out the governments the way which makes most sense to me. Thanks for your argument though.

Oh, and about the Javova's Witnesses, etc. There aren't as many JW's as much as other Christian Sects.

-=:Sir John, all of those religions are still practiced to this day. Paganists are everywhere and have a religion which is directly related to an ancient religion, or a compilation of ancient religions. Now those were some suggestions and some excess religions.

However, Shintoism, Bahai'sm, and Copticism are still largely practiced. And lately, the practice of Celtic Druidism has increased drastically in North America along with other Paganist religions such as Wicca and Norse Paganism..

A new vesrion will come soon. I havent had a lot of time for it lately...

It will include a ton of changes but please keep the sugestions coming...

As a student of religions, I think this MOD is a great idea. I'll just wait until it gets a little more polished, then I'll download it. Sounds good:goodjob: .

One footnote: For a scenario where civs are religions, having atheists as barbs are a good idea. If we, atheists, were a hair color, we'd be bald. So in the same we, we don't fit, except for as barbs. However, this, in no way, makes us immoral or bad people. Also, the shinking ship thing is slightly offensive. It's really akin to the term "no Atheists in foxholes" which assumes that atheists really believe in god and are secretly afraid of hell. A couple of things to think about: 1) i know a couple of atheists who fought in the gulf war, one who was severely injured (and coincidentally tells us that he never once thought about god). 2) I would have reservations about a religion that needs to use fear to convert people (i.e. a sinking ship) :p

:lol:

It was never my attempt to scare people but its actually quite true tough. You may say that thats just bull right now but you havent been in such as situatuion. (im not saying I have)

Actually, I have been in some seriously desparate situations, and did not suddenly start worshipping a god... I'm with Isaac_Newton; I'm kinda offended by your signature as well. I'm not dissing theists in mine!

FYI Sir John

I am very knowledable about mormonism so if you need any help in that area I'd be more then happy to help. I can help with city names, UU, leader etc....

Originally posted by Sir John
:lol:

It was never my attempt to scare people but its actually quite true tough. You may say that thats just bull right now but you havent been in such as situatuion. (im not saying I have)

Considering how many World War 1 veterans professed to have lost all faith in God as a result of experiencing the horrors of war, I would say that the truth could be quite the reverse.


Even so, I very much like the idea for this mod (although Jehovah's Witnesses deserve no major part in it) but I feel inclined to ask:

Christian or Muslim; which in your mod are the more aggressive? You could successfully argue for either depending on what region of history you look at. ;)

A famous German navyman once had something to say about atheists. He did not believe there were any, because give a Communist one go in a U-boat with American destroyers overhead and he'll be praying to his God right quick.

Im back now after a long summer vacation and I think I will try to make some time to work on this mod altough I have a LOT of RL thing going on right now...

And andrew.. I am a mormon myself so Im pretty knowledagble there as well, but since I dont have loads of time right now I would appriciate any help.. :D

About the christian-muslim thingy I think they both is agressive but it depends on wich part of the history ur looking at.. nowadys its the muslims but in the erlier days it was the muslims... with C3C coming out soon, Perhaps this can be arranged :D

Democracy is a religion? wow you are smart to come up with that . Not many american would catch on that our government has used Democracy as a religion . the first i remember preaching Democracy can save the world was Jimmy Carter . Because our Government trying to convert the world to Democracy is the reason why some have desided to strike back at the USA. i not siding with the terrorist who attack us but you got to admit that the terrorist believe very strongly their faith to be able to give their live for it. even science is some people religion who gave their all to science. a very famous scientist gave up his children and wife for science (i would name him but E=MC^2 should give u an idea) . Religion is what people believe in and put their faith and their lives into. so religion can be good or evil and yes even atheism is some people religion and a atheist form of government is Communism. USA government was based on the Bible some but not on the church itself .
if you think Democracy isnt a religion then listen careful in the news have some PREACH the democracy message especially in our government . i strongly believe that Democracy isnt for everybody ; it was design especially for USA not for the whole world .

Sir John, have you checked the American Conquest thread? There are a few shaman animations that you could use here, and soon there should also be the priest.

Smidlee:
- About E= mc²... His religion was not science. Once he was asked how a scientist can believe in God. He answered something like "I don't study sciences to question God, but to know if he had another choice when creating the world".
- Just a small reminder. The USA are not the only democracy in the world. As democracy is ethimologicaly speaking governement by the people, we can even wonder if technically it is indeed a democracy and not a republic.

thx for the animation tips there steph... I havent had much time to work on the mod but i hope I will have time to make a new version soon...

There are no atheists in foxholes, however this is an argument against foxholes, not atheists.
-Unknown

I like the quote, even though the original one was incorrect in itself.

Originally posted by Smidlee
Democracy is a religion? wow you are smart to come up with that . Not many american would catch on that our government has used Democracy as a religion . the first i remember preaching Democracy can save the world was Jimmy Carter . Because our Government trying to convert the world to Democracy is the reason why some have desided to strike back at the USA. i not siding with the terrorist who attack us but you got to admit that the terrorist believe very strongly their faith to be able to give their live for it. even science is some people religion who gave their all to science. a very famous scientist gave up his children and wife for science (i would name him but E=MC^2 should give u an idea) . Religion is what people believe in and put their faith and their lives into. so religion can be good or evil and yes even atheism is some people religion and a atheist form of government is Communism. USA government was based on the Bible some but not on the church itself .
if you think Democracy isnt a religion then listen careful in the news have some PREACH the democracy message especially in our government . i strongly believe that Democracy isnt for everybody ; it was design especially for USA not for the whole world .

I simply couldn't agree more.

I think mr. Sa~Craig mistook nihilism as atheism.
Not every atheist agrees with nietszch's The Anti-Christ, just to let it clear. Altough I am no atheist my-self, I'm rather nihilist. For nihilism does not requires you not to believe in god. "god is Dead' assumes that god exists (or existed) after all.

Important to remember that there are religions based on ideas close to "nothing exists", like buddhism. They are beatiful filosofies, although I am no follower myself.

It's good to see americans thinking like you, Androrc and Smidlee. I've lived in the U.S. myself, so I know there are many americans thinking in many ways, but from outsides, well, some times you get scared with the news.
Although I'd not agree that democracy is not for everyone, for I believe it is, I must say your president should let nations decide when their democracy should rise, otherwise, democracy becomes hipocrisy. As current situation in Haiti shows, it's hard to simple become a democracy and we go thru mistakes before it happen. Allow the processes to be natural, that's what I say.

Originally posted by victorhadin

Even so, I very much like the idea for this mod (although Jehovah's Witnesses deserve no major part in it)

Having some relatives that are Jehovah's Witnesses, I agree with this view, since the aggression level would be practically zero. History bears out that they willingly went to prison or concentration camps rather than fight.

If you put scientology in make tampa florida their capitol it has over like 10000 ther
:king: :egypt: :D

This looks like it will be a very interesting mod, but it definitely needs work. Hate to be the one to add yet another suggestion for civ names, but here goes:

We have five "cultural groups" to work with, so we need five (or less) categories of religions. I would suggest:

Eastern religions
Pagan religions
Christian religions
Middle Eastern religions
Modern religions

Under each category, I would place the following religions:

Eastern:
- Hinduism
- Buddhism
- Taoism
- Jainism
- Confucianism*

Pagan:
- Norse/Germanic myth
- Greek/Roman myth
- Druidism
- Shinto
- Animism
- Mesoamerican myth
- Egyptian myth

Christian:
- Catholicism
- Lutheranism**
- Calvinism**
- Eastern Orthodox
- Mormonism*!

Middle Eastern:
- Judaism*@
- Sunni Islam
- Shia Islam
- Sufism
- Zoroastrianism

Modern:
- Wicca*#
- Scientology
- Raelism

The following can be the barbarian tribes:
- Atheists
- Nihilists
- Secular Humanists
- Existentialists
- Satanists
- Agnostics
- Infidels
- Communists

* Confucianism is not technically a religion, but since it dominated the Chinese way of life in a religious way, I would include it.

** Lutheranism and Calvinism represent the two main branches of Protestantism.

*! "Mormonism" is much shorter as a Civ name than "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". :p

*@ Judaism has branches, but they are not different enough in my opinion that they would have different traits in Civ; thus, they are lumped together under one heading.

*# Wiccans might object and say Wicca should be included under Paganism; but the Paganism category is being used for ancient, "extinct" religions, whereas Wicca is a modern eclectic construction loosely based on what little information we actually have about the "old religions".

As for the Barbarian tribes, they are all non-theists of one stripe or another. I think this puts a humorous twist on the game, as you'll get messages like "We have disturbed an angry Existentialist Warrior". Except for Communists, of course, which are not necessarily nonreligious, but after the McCarthy era assuming so makes them hilarious. :p

I myself happen to be atheist, and a game structured in this way would provide hours on end of side-splitting laughter. :)

Now, one also would have to research these religions a bit to decide what their traits and unique units ought to be. I'm sure everyone would like to claim that their own religion is Religious and not Militaristic or Expansionist, but we must look to history here and be honest. If possible, the Religious civ trait ought to be changed to Zealous, and then given only to those religions where it applies.

Also, we'll be in need of new governments. Here are some names I've come up with thus far:

- Discipleship
- Hermitage
- Caliphate
- Papacy
- Monasticism
- Priestly Council
- Universal Ministry
- Democracy

Not sure what the stats should be for all of these but here is a brief description of their "character":

Discipleship: A single "prophet" figure has amassed a small following, and exercises reasonable control over them due to their zeal over the "new religion" he preaches. Should be an early gov't.

Hermitage: For those sages/saints living alone in the woods. Should encourage cities to be small in size, like Feudalism.

Caliphate: Single Caliph exercises absolute control over both state and religion.

Papacy: High priest and heirarchy of lower clergy exercise reasonable control over populace; secular governors may exist to meet nonreligious needs.

Monasticism: The religious convene in monasteries to learn and practice their faith. Abbots/masters have decent control over them, but there is more emphasis on learning rather than submission.

Priestly Council: A religious oligarchy where power rests with a council of priests rather than just one. People have more freedom as a result.

Universal Ministry: Every member of the Church is equally qualified to speak to God, to preach, and to evangelize. Extended civil liberties result in something not unlike the Republic in terms of stats.

Democracy: As it is currently.

It would be cool if each government had a government-specific small wonder associated with it. Governments are listed in the approximate order I think they ought to appear in the tech tree. Democracy should not be pushed to the very end, though; it should be somewhere towards the beginning of the Modern era (not at the beginning of the Modern era, but in the first third).

Any other governments/civs that anybody can come up with?

Sir John, jeg er enig med deg i ideen din at sivilisasjonene kunne være de vanlige og at religionene ble "governments" istedet. Hvis det er mulig, ville de med f.eks kristen "government" være vennligsinnede mot de andre som har kristen "government" og dårlig innstilte mot de som har f.eks muslimsk "government". Så kunne du konvert landet ditt (fra f.eks kristen til muslim) for å få bedre forhold og skape allianser med en annen Civ, men det burde være slik at det tok dobbelt så lang tid som vanlig å konvertere slik at ikke Civ'ene konverterte fram og tilbake hele tiden. Jeg tror det allerede er slik at hvilken type regjering du har spiller en rolle for hvor vennligstilte Civ'ene er mot deg, men du kunne kraftig forsterket denne effekten for å simulere brorskapet de religiøse føler mot andre av samme tro, f.eks muslimsk brorskap, de holder sammen nesten uansett.

CLOUDYWORTEX
All religions fall to that pathetic excuse of an existence sooner or later. The process is called apostacy, and the West reeks of it. Almost makes me want to convert to Islam. At least it's obvious they believe in something other than their own feeble selves.

HOMIE
Couldn't agree more.

VICTORHADIN
Christian or Muslim; which in your mod are the more aggressive? You could successfully argue for either depending on what region of history you look at.

HOMIE
Yes, you are correct. You could set it up like this:
Christianity and Islam agression in the Ages:
Ancient: Equal
Medieavel:Equal
Industrial:Equal
Modern: Christianity has no aggression, Islam is as aggressive as ever, just taken a new form :D

I would say that if you changed agression per age, christianity would be more agressive in the medieval age.

Originally posted by Esuh
I would say that if you changed agression per age, christianity would be more agressive in the medieval age.
Not more aggressive, just more successful in the battlefield.

Not more successfull, more warlike. Take a look at the invasion of Spain and the religous situation before the invasion after. Also take a look at the situation after the liberation. Also take a look at the crusades, and not only the first three or four, but all of them.

I could answear your questions, but I have decided to end all my current debates and not get myself into a new one, so you won't get a reply from me on this topic.

Also, I take blame for encouraging an Off-Topic debate in the Completed Modpacks sub-forum.

Now, let's get back on topic: What did you think of my suggestions Sir John?

To get back on topic, I think these are good suggestions, with the exception of agression per age, which is just about impossible with the editor now (without "cheating"), at least as far as I can tell. Some suggestions to the goverment types:

Discipleship: First goverment, corruption very high outside capital (Dependent on a single strong figure), if you place the corruption outside the capital high, you could also have very high production (with the corruption very high, most cities will produce little total). Small support.

Hermitage: I don't think this really works as a goverment.

Caliphate: Somwhat like monarchy?

Papacy: I believe this should be an in-between.

Priestly Council: Somewhat like democracy.

Democracy: As it is not a form for religous control, I don't think this should be included.

Originally posted by Guildenstern

Universal Ministry: Every member of the Church is equally qualified to speak to God, to preach, and to evangelize. Extended civil liberties result in something not unlike the Republic in terms of stats.


Got no idea otherwise.

Excuse me? Where is Greek Orthodox? The first Christian religion! PUT IT IN! NOW!

--ImpressEmpress

(Theodora is my HERO!)

Guildenstern's ideas seem the most sensible here for a while. However, I would dispute his division of Christianity. Mormonism is ridiculously minor to include if you're missing out Ethiopian Orthodox and the Church of the East. Remember, there are three great branches of Christianity - Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern - including those Eastern churches that are technically not Orthodox (Coptic, Ethiopian, Nestorian). Mormonism is also a lot less important than Anglicanism, if you're going to have different representatives for all the Protestants. I would also suggest Jewish Christianity, since this, not Greek Orthodoxy, was actually the first version of Christianity. And also the AICs, which in some ways may be the future of Christianity. I would also vote to add the Kakure Kiri****an, not because they're important but because I like them!

I might add to ImpressEmpress that Theodora wasn't "orthodox" at all, but a Monophysite, and Justinian was of course an Aphthartodocetist, at least at the end of his life... time to add the Copts!

Incidentally, atheism does not mean disbelieving in the supernatural. It means not believing in God. You could, in theory, believe in supernatural things, but not God. An example would be the philosophy of John McTaggart in the early twentieth century. Moreover, it is wrong to oppose atheism to "religion". Atheism is opposed to theism, and religion need not be theistic. For example, Theravada Buddhism is generally accepted as a religion, but it does not involve belief in God or gods. Westerners always get hung up on this. The theism/atheism dichotomy is a feature of Western thought, and Asian belief systems do not fit into it - for example, Hinduism is certainly not atheistic, but it's hardly theistic in the usual sense of the word. Westerners tend, erroneously, to suppose that religion is always about God, and if you believe in God you are religious - whereas in fact belief in God is simply one aspect of some religions.

So I think it's wrong to have atheists as the barbarians in this mod, because atheists are not necessarily irreligious, and religious people are not necessarily theists. You should have barbarians as simply secularists, or unbelievers.

Looks like the forum automatically edited out part of the name of the Japanese "Hidden Christians" there, mistaking it for a naughty word... well, hopefully you'll know what I meant!

It sounds like the making of a very interesting mod. :) I had to chuckle at the thought of Atheists being barbarians in the game., as they're not viewed as a religion.

Are you aware that religion actually means a system of worship surrounding a person, thing, idea or God? With this in mind, I'd certainly call Atheism a religion as this is how some appear to practice it. BTW, I don't consider all atheists to be amoral.

I definitely like to recommend the grouping of religions by cultural groups as someone mentioned earlier. I believe it went like this:

Middle Eastern Culture:
Jews
****e Muslims
Sunni Muslims
Coptic Christians

Western (European) Culture
Catholic
Protestants
Orthodox (Russians)
Orthodox (Greeks)

American Culture:
American Catholics
American Protestant

Asian Culture:
Buddhists
Hindu

Please note that American version of Christianity seems to be different than those of its European counterparts.

dood...you made a Mormon Civ? Rock on!
I too can help with UUs (may I suggest the pioneer, a settler that can attack and defend?), city names, leaders, etc.
DId you just rename the civs, or actually give them traits and such?

If I could add to the spam I would say that It should be divided into

Mediterranean Culture
Greek Orthodox
Catholicism
Coptic
Protestantism


American Culture (aka the pagans)
Norse mythology
Roman/Greek mythology
Egyptian Mythology
Shamanism
Zoroastriianism (cause it is more or less extinct... cept in Mumbai I suppose)
Druidism


European Culture
Agnostism
Atheism
Satanism
Materialism(Believer of the Sciences solely)


Middle Eastern Culture
Judaism
Sunni Islam
12er Shi' Islam
7er Shi' Islam
(perhaps even 5er Shi' Islam, with alamut as it's capital... hehe, assassins)
Hinduism (cause i considder the city look of the Middle east to fit india more that the Far eastern look)

Far Eastern Culture
Taoism
Shintoism (perhaps that's the same as taoism, my knowledge of Eastern Asia is sadly limited)
Buddhism
Janaism


pehaps something of this order

jonte

the download link does not work :(

Anybody ever play Europa Universalis? It has a state religion for each nation. It's my understanding that religion will be a part of Civ 4.

Yeah. It's quite possible to have democracy and religion. Early America is a prime example. Now that the anti-religious folks have settled in, trying to remove God from every facet of American life, it is no longer so. :(



Ha ha ha. Of course, "In God We Trust" isnt on money, almost all of our presidents have been Protestants, and there are bible-burnings on every street corner. Oh please.

Anybody ever play Europa Universalis? It has a state religion for each nation. It's my understanding that religion will be a part of Civ 4.
EU1 is no good, but Ive played EU2. I hope that CIV4 will have something like that.

I hate to bug you but I am a Jehovah's Witness and I know tons I think that they should be included in this mod. And I'm no expert on religions but I do think that the Atheists should be the Barbarians it just fits this mod. But it's just my opinion.

It won't work when I try to download it....... :(

First off I think this is a great idea for a mod and will be watching for updates.

I think some people automatically think that if someonw believes in God, they are religious. This is most certainly not the case.
I am a Christian, but I have no religion. My belief is a relationship, NOT a religion. I believe that God created the earth, and that he sent his son Jesus to save us from destruction and to have a presonal relationship with us.
My faith and belief is all about the relationship with God and serving him all my life.
Religion is a set of beliefs and traditions with many rules and regulation set out in stone. Those familiar with biblical themes around thetime Jesus had his ministry will know about the Pharisses, Saducess, etc. They were waiting for the Messiah, Jesus, but were so wrapped up in their own traditions that they didn't recognise the one they were waiting for. Their religion set out exactly what and who the messiah was supposed to be.

I don't mean to preach or anything if that's how it appears, I just want to dispel the myth that a believer is religious.

BTW my take on Satanism is that there are different types. Some, as was mentioned before, don't refer to the christian concept of Satan as the Devil.
There are those, however, who do worship Satan the Devil. I don't know what to call these different groups, however. But what is interesting is that the names of Satan listed in the Satanists Bible are all taken out of the Bible.

Atheism is a religion, I would have the agnostics be the barbarians. :)

I know this is clearly bumping an old thread. But I am surprised this mod stoped developement and I would like to see it continue

And Duke, I beleive that an agnostic is someone who believes there is a god or some all powerful forces. But believes there can be no proof that one actually exists. Now according to this mod that would make them more "Civilized" than the atheists who don't beleive there is a god.

And as for the barbarians since this is a religious mod. Should be named after something that means no religion because

religion:
Noun
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

so there can really be no barbarians because the beleif there is no god is still a beleif and there for does not qualify it to be a barbarian.

The mod stopped deveolopement because the person who made it stopped coming to this site. :p

O well that is a shame.

is the link still up?

if so, Funky2882, why dont you download it, and get modding etc yourself?

I'm lazy, and even if I wasn't so lazy. I don't have the time anyway.

Funky, an "agnostic" is someone who doesn't know whether there is a God or not. The word comes from the Greek for "not knowing". Of course, technically *no-one* really *knows* whether there is a God or not, so the word normally refers to those who are not sure, that is, they believe there may be a God or there may not. Most people who believe in God (these days) think that God's existence cannot be proved. In fact this is generally accepted today as a given, even though this view is a relatively recent development and is condemned by the First Vatican Council, so a good Roman Catholic should tell you that not only does God exist but this fact can be proved.

Similarly, I fear the dictionary where you found the definition of "religion" is quite mistaken. It was evidently written by somone who only knows about modern Western religion. It would not include Buddhism; neither would it include the monotheism of Aristotled (who believed that the world was eternal and therefore not created). Scholars of religion spend much time today arguing about how religion should best be defined, but they all agree that it cannot be summed up in such a simplistic way.

Also Mormons, Methodists, Baptists and Jehova's Witnesses are American derivatives of European Protestants.

Actually, Mormonism is not a branch of Protestantism. Protestantism is an offshoot from Catholicism, saying that the Catholics had gone wrong somewhere between 34 AD and 1500 AD and needed to be reformed.

Mormons believe that priesthood authority was lost with the deaths of the apostles, and that Christianity was in a state of general apostasy, having lost the priesthood authority in the first centuries A.D.

Mormonism claims to be a restoration church, rather than a Protestant or reformation church. Here is a link to the Mormon's website, stating their relationship to the Protestant Reformation:

http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-57-16,00.html

It includes links explaining their position on apostacy and restoration as well.

EDIT: Plotinus illustrates unwittingly the need for a restoration. Much of Christianity has lost sight of the basic truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, such as the divinity of Jesus, the need for a savior, and the reality of his resurrection. His statements about whether God's existence can be known illustrates the need for modern-day prophets and apostles who have direct communication with God. The biblical accounts of people experiencing God directly illustrate this pattern: God does not show himself to the masses of humanity or provide widespread proof of his existence. Rather, he reserves this experience for chosen servants who are then given the charge to share his message with the rest of the world. Biblically, these people are known as prophets and apostles. The Mormon church teaches that God continues to call prophets and apostles today.

the idea is unique i'll check it out

XD at the athiests being barbarians. Now I'm athiest myself, but can see where thats coming from; very witty.

Funky, an "agnostic" is someone who doesn't know whether there is a God or not. The word comes from the Greek for "not knowing". Of course, technically *no-one* really *knows* whether there is a God or not, so the word normally refers to those who are not sure, that is, they believe there may be a God or there may not. Most people who believe in God (these days) think that God's existence cannot be proved. In fact this is generally accepted today as a given, even though this view is a relatively recent development and is condemned by the First Vatican Council, so a good Roman Catholic should tell you that not only does God exist but this fact can be proved.

Similarly, I fear the dictionary where you found the definition of "religion" is quite mistaken. It was evidently written by somone who only knows about modern Western religion. It would not include Buddhism; neither would it include the monotheism of Aristotled (who believed that the world was eternal and therefore not created). Scholars of religion spend much time today arguing about how religion should best be defined, but they all agree that it cannot be summed up in such a simplistic way.

Actually, his dictionary is correct. Which is why Buddhism is often mistakenly referred to as a religion, when it is in fact just a belief system, a life guide. However, modern Buddhism has practicly made Buddha into a God, so modern Buddhism with this Buddha-god could rightly be called a religion.

Well, you may say that, but the vast majority of scholars of religion would disagree with you, because they recognise that religion cannot be reduced to any one element (such a theism). If a movement offers moral precepts, has metaphysical teachings and beliefs, has rituals and services, has monks and monasteries, and has a hierarchy of teachers and authorities, then most people would call that a religion, irrespective of the precise content of its metaphysical teachings, which are only one element of the whole thing. Any definition of "religion" which excludes Buddhism is not a very helpful definition, since most people would agree that it obviously is one. I don't understand the insistence of some people that there is a single "essence" of religion that all religions worthy of the name must possess. It's a very alluring dream, but a patently fruitless one. Religions are just too complex for that.

But things needn't be so complicated. Words are meant for communication, and the simple fact is that Buddhism doesn't fit the definition of the word "Religion". I think we agree on what Buddhism actually is, all we are doing is talking semantics.

Well, equally, the simple fact is that most people do think of Buddhism as a "religion". As you say, words are meant for communication. This means that people call something a "religion" if it makes sense and if it is useful to do so. And Buddhism clearly fits these criteria. Surely it's less complicated to say that religions have many different elements, some of which are present and some of which are not in most of them, rather than to insist upon a single element, present in only some, as the defining characteristic. Declaring that any religion that doesn't involve God is not really a religion is like Platonists in late antiquity who declared that anyone who didn't believe in an immaterial, ideal world was not really a philosopher. Obviously it is possible to be a philosopher and yet deny this particular philosophical position. Those Platonists were simply making themselves the standard by which they judged everyone - anyone who agreed with them was a philosopher, and anyone who didn't was not. Similarly, many Westerners today judge religions by the standards of those with which they are most familiar, and assume that something is a religion inasmuch as it resembles Christianity, the most prominent feature of which is that it involves God. Even theologians who deliberately try to avoid this mistake, such as John Hick, still commit it (Hick just renames God "Reality" and assesses religions according to how much they talk about "Reality"). In fact, of course, you have to take a more objective viewpoint. Buddhists certainly think they are following a religion - do you really know better? What if they said that any "religion" that does not involve the concept of Nirvana is not really a religion?

Plotinus
Well, equally, the simple fact is that most people do think of Buddhism as a "religion". As you say, words are meant for communication
Correct. I just get annoyed when people out of ignorance use a word wrongly. And when enough people do it, that word then takes on the new "wrong" meaning. Why does this annoy me? For one, it makes translating ancient documents hard, because a word that was used "back then" and now might mean something different, which makes everything confusing.

BTW, your scenario looks interesting/fun. I have just downloaded it.

Correct. I just get annoyed when people out of ignorance use a word wrongly.

Oh believe me, I'm exactly the same way. But trust me, that is not what is happening here - it is not wrong to call Buddhism a religion, because it simply is not part of the "definition" of religion to include belief in God. It just isn't, and it would be very bizarre, not to mention utterly arbitrary, if it were: the assumption that it does is pure Western bias. Honestly, I've spent an awful lot of time studying this kind of thing!

BTW, your scenario looks interesting/fun. I have just downloaded it.

Thanks! Do post any comments on its thread - I'm hoping to do an updated version at some point fairly soon so it's good to get feedback.

Being a Jehovah's Witness, it was quite...interesting that you pust us in.

I must question some stuff...Did you just rename the different civs? Cause it seem that Jehovah's Witnesses are exactly like English, except for the third trait. I haven't played it, and probably won't(to busy working on my own stuff), but I'm thinking you might want to change the civilopedia, especially the bios. But hey.

Very....interesting. Yes, that's the term fro it. interesting.


EDIT: There' an h at the end of Jehovah