View Full Version : Mutiple maps download Beta:


Hanny
Apr 04, 2012, 01:13 PM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11388145

ls612
Apr 04, 2012, 01:16 PM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11388145

Yeah, I noticed that and posted about it on the Galactic Era thread. I'm quite excited for this, as it will be a revolution in CIV 4 modding.

Hanny
Apr 04, 2012, 01:53 PM
I thought we could thrash out ideas of best to use it here while keeping the authors thread for bugs etc, is there a concept in place for how to implement for C2C?.

ls612
Apr 04, 2012, 02:03 PM
I thought we could thrash out ideas of best to use it here while keeping the authors thread for bugs etc, is there a concept in place for how to implement for C2C?.

The last four or so pages in the Galactic Era thread are basically that, with the eventual conclusion that we needed to wait for this before going further. Any ideas you have will be welcome there.

Hanny
Apr 04, 2012, 02:23 PM
Ok, but i rarely get out of the Middle ages....do we need to wait till the space age to use multi maps?.

Since the number of civs and map size determine much of our experience of the game ( more and bigger means slower), would not moving from one map to another be a counter to that issue, say for instance from Eurasia map ( Old world) containing a fixed number of civs for that map, to new world which opens up new civs and new lands, and so on to the stars, its too good a thing to have to wait till the space age to use methinks. And could help solve lag due while playing.

Just thinking out loud mind you as ive yet to look at what it can do. Each map must be the same size, so does that create a problem with saves?, will the save file be eating up time when generated, even while the unused maps are unpopulated?, or rather the first map starts populated, and the next could be populated acording to diff level with animals first and then Ai civs

DRJ
Apr 04, 2012, 02:42 PM
I could also think of a Jules-Verne-like cavern-system quest map, available with alternative timelines game option. Entries on North Pole, South Pole and Himalaya^^

And what about some real mining? Imagine with multiple maps you can send your worker on a hill, press "mine hill and your worker gets teleported underground, having to search for the resources there. In this minigame there may be some risks involved for the worker, like bats or clouds of gasses he has to avoid. And the best: this pacman-esque minigame with pac being the worker and iron the cherry would get faster and harder with difficulty, so no human would ever win deity again, if not stealing iron mines from another AI^^

Ok, excuse my nonsense was just happy about all the progress that's waiting to break like a pregnant womens water. [pimp]

Hydromancerx
Apr 04, 2012, 02:48 PM
Ok, but i rarely get out of the Middle ages....do we need to wait till the space age to use multi maps?.

Since the number of civs and map size determine much of our experience of the game ( more and bigger means slower), would not moving from one map to another be a counter to that issue, say for instance from Eurasia map ( Old world) containing a fixed number of civs for that map, to new world which opens up new civs and new lands, and so on to the stars, its too good a thing to have to wait till the space age to use methinks. And could help solve lag due while playing.

Just thinking out loud mind you as ive yet to look at what it can do. Each map must be the same size, so does that create a problem with saves?, will the save file be eating up time when generated, even while the unused maps are unpopulated?, or rather the first map starts populated, and the next could be populated acording to diff level with animals first and then Ai civs

The first maps we will be using are Lunar, Mars and Galactic. Any other maps such as underwater/underground or your suggestions would be discussed later. The reason for this is the Galactic Era cannot be what it is without these multi-maps. Thus they have priority over any other kinds of muti-map applications.

Hanny
Apr 04, 2012, 03:01 PM
Hydro that makes sense.
Since a map must be the same size, did you consider putting Lunar and Earth on the same map?. Earth and the moon are i think combined still smaller than Mars.

DRJ
Apr 04, 2012, 03:05 PM
The first maps we will be using are Lunar, Mars and Galactic. Any other maps such as underwater/underground or your suggestions would be discussed later. The reason for this is the Galactic Era cannot be what it is without these multi-maps. Thus they have priority over any other kinds of muti-map applications.

Of course, but it might be interesting to have a beta map that isn't mars or moon but a simple duell map size underground map for testing purposes that the SVN users could have during the beautifying of the real maps, getting their final cut. That's why I suggested that mining-mini-game. Test-featuring may help getting more people involved to get work done even faster, maybe faster as if the investment to build a test-feature is not made ---speakign in c2c: building a nut cracking stone takes 5 turns. Before completing it, your city would grow in 179 turns. After completing it it grows in 161 turns. You get 18 turns of hammers from the new tile (if you would have used the hammers for not building the stoned crackers nut or whatever^^) which pays off the hammer investment for the the nut cracking stone as well as gives extra benefit for the next growth of the city etc. pp. So... a minimod test feature may be very well worth it, just sayin' :groucho:

Hydromancerx
Apr 04, 2012, 03:10 PM
Hydro that makes sense.
Since a map must be the same size, did you consider putting Lunar and Mars on the same map?. Mars and the moon are i think combined still smaller than the earth.

Maps can be made to be smaller using blank barrier tiles that no unit can move onto. Thus allowing for say a Lunar or even Mars map to have less tiles to use than the Earth map.

However the Galactic map will have to be the same size as the Earth map. However in theory we could add multiple galaxy maps. However that would be something to discuss later.

Of course, but it might be interesting to have a beta map that isn't mars or moon but a simple duell map size underground map for testing purposes that the SVN users could have during the beautifying of the real maps, getting their final cut. That's why I suggested that mining-mini-game. Test-featuring may help getting more people involved to get work done even faster, maybe faster as if the investment to build a test-feature is not made ---speakign in c2c: building a nut cracking stone takes 5 turns. Before completing it, your city would grow in 179 turns. After completing it it grows in 161 turns. You get 18 turns of hammers from the new tile (if you would have used the hammers for not building the stoned crackers nut or whatever^^) which pays off the hammer investment for the the nut cracking stone as well as gives extra benefit for the next growth of the city etc. pp. So... a minimod test feature may be very well worth it, just sayin' :groucho:

Well the first test maps will use C2C terrain to make sure it works. Even if its all grass. Its only when the multi-maps works that we can start adding the custom space terrains.

EDIT: On a side note if we are talking about the possibilities of multi-maps we could possibly have a "City View" map where you could build "buildings" on the map via improvements. Note this is WAY out there but its still a cool idea to think about.

God-Emperor
Apr 04, 2012, 04:09 PM
Earth and the moon are i think combined still smaller than Mars.

Ah, no.

Mars is much smaller than the Earth - barely over half the diameter. The Earth is the largest of the rocky (non gas giant) planets in the solar system (it also has the highest density - combining those two things gives it the highest surface gravity, too).

Surfaces areas (the relevant statistic for maps of them):
Earth = 510,072,000 square km
Mars = 144,798,500 square km (0.284 Earths)
Moon = 37,930,000 square km (0.074 Earths)

DRJ
Apr 04, 2012, 04:27 PM
if we are talking about the possibilities of multi-maps we could possibly have a "City View" map where you could build "buildings" on the map via improvements. Note this is WAY out there but its still a cool idea to think about.

Yay! You send your worker into the city and he has to gather wood and rocks there much like Anno or Settler style lol really cool idea, so much becomes possible,
I feel like today civ4 turned 42 and confessed to have become a born-again civian :crazyeye:

ls612
Apr 04, 2012, 04:54 PM
Maps can be made to be smaller using blank barrier tiles that no unit can move onto. Thus allowing for say a Lunar or even Mars map to have less tiles to use than the Earth map.

However the Galactic map will have to be the same size as the Earth map. However in theory we could add multiple galaxy maps. However that would be something to discuss later.



Well the first test maps will use C2C terrain to make sure it works. Even if its all grass. Its only when the multi-maps works that we can start adding the custom space terrains.

EDIT: On a side note if we are talking about the possibilities of multi-maps we could possibly have a "City View" map where you could build "buildings" on the map via improvements. Note this is WAY out there but its still a cool idea to think about.

I would be generally against adding extra maps when we have other ways of handling a mechanic, becuase although another map does not affect the graphics memory, it DOES increase the amount of normal memory used, and that is not generally a good thing.

Hanny
Apr 04, 2012, 04:55 PM
Ah, no.

Mars is much smaller than the Earth - barely over half the diameter. The Earth is the largest of the rocky (non gas giant) planets in the solar system (it also has the highest density - combining those two things gives it the highest surface gravity, too).

Surfaces areas (the relevant statistic for maps of them):
Earth = 510,072,000 square km
Mars = 144,798,500 square km (0.284 Earths)
Moon = 37,930,000 square km (0.074 Earths)

See the time stamp on the edit please. Hydro replied to a post in progress, so sorry for confusion.
Ps, ta for the sq kilo thats usefull, so Mars Moon could be a corridor shaped map moving past the Moon to Mars then, with empty tiles to either side. Seems a shame not to use those empty tiles tho.

Having watched John Carpenter recently, you just spoiled it for me with your gravity info.

JosEPh_II
Apr 04, 2012, 05:12 PM
The empty tiles could be asteroid fields and would be used much like islands and seas on Island and Archipelago maps for example.

JosEPh

ls612
Apr 04, 2012, 05:36 PM
The empty tiles could be asteroid fields and would be used much like islands and seas on Island and Archipelago maps for example.

JosEPh

That is a VERY good idea! On Mars, the empty area could house Phobos and Deimos, the two moons of Mars.

Hydromancerx
Apr 04, 2012, 06:39 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Moons_of_solar_system_v7.jpg/567px-Moons_of_solar_system_v7.jpg

Based on diameters ...

Earth = 12,713 km
Venus = 12,100 km
Mars = 6,792 km
Titan = 5,150 km
Moon = 3,474 km
Europa = 3,122 km
Phobos = 22.2 km
Deimos = 12.6 km

Thus in one map we could have not only Mars and the Moon but Mars' moons, and other moons. Venus would be the only one too big to fit and would need a map about as big as the Earth. And to make hings simple just say Earth and Venus are the same at a 12,000 km diameter.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318109&d=1333582643

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 04, 2012, 07:14 PM
As long as each one wraps east-west and the moons link to their planets in some way. ;)

code99
Apr 04, 2012, 08:27 PM
I would be generally against adding extra maps when we have other ways of handling a mechanic, becuase although another map does not affect the graphics memory, it DOES increase the amount of normal memory used, and that is not generally a good thing.

If this would mean more MAF errors and similar i would be against this ... sounds cool but not worth it if thats the case

ls612
Apr 04, 2012, 08:52 PM
If this would mean more MAF errors and similar i would be against this ... sounds cool but not worth it if thats the case

I'm not against the multiple maps at all, its the only way to do the Galactic Era, and a great advance in modding cIV. I am against frivolous uses of it, such as City view maps, which have little if any gameplay value.

The Underground map does sound good though.

JosEPh_II
Apr 04, 2012, 09:38 PM
Hydro,

On your Mars screenie some of the blank could be filled in with the Asteroid belt, helping to connect the different areas. And also making "space islands"/large asteriods that could be used very similarly to the Island map. Same idea, blank space is sea on island map but "space" on Mars map. But I bet you've already thought that out.

JosEPh

Hydromancerx
Apr 04, 2012, 11:52 PM
Hydro,

On your Mars screenie some of the blank could be filled in with the Asteroid belt, helping to connect the different areas. And also making "space islands"/large asteriods that could be used very similarly to the Island map. Same idea, blank space is sea on island map but "space" on Mars map. But I bet you've already thought that out.

JosEPh

That's the idea if we are going to relative scale. For instance if we are not replicating exact sizes we could split up one map into this ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318116&stc=1&d=1333601525

Thus you would only need 3 maps; Earth, Solar System and Galactic.

Each could have their own unique terrains and even have the moons be randomized so you don't always get the same type of terrain for the 2 gas giant moons.

Epona222
Apr 04, 2012, 11:54 PM
I'm so excited about this that I'm practically hyperventilating, then I wonder whether I'm going to need a massive hardware upgrade in order to run it :D

I am in two minds about filling in blank space with asteroids - in terms of realism there is an awful lot of space in our solar system with very little in it in terms of landmass, great distances between planets and even asteroids. On the other hand there is the gameplay element where I want stuff to explore, so would not be adverse to a less realistic interpretation of where asteroids are.

However much I value realism in games, gameplay wins every time and I'd rather see fictional asteroids (represented like islands on the Earth maps) or reduced scale than have blank spaces, I don't expect a recreation of an accurate scale model of the solar system because most of it would just have nothing in it whatsoever, and however realistic that might be I don't actually want large areas of nothing in a game. :)

Edit to add: Hydromancerx posted just before me so I didn't see it before typing this reply, and I agree with his post.

code99
Apr 05, 2012, 12:44 AM
I'm not against the multiple maps at all, its the only way to do the Galactic Era, and a great advance in modding cIV. I am against frivolous uses of it, such as City view maps, which have little if any gameplay value.

The Underground map does sound good though.

Well im not against it either, infact im as interested as everyone else. My only concern is that if this makes the game crash more due to MAFs and this sort of things, it might not be worth it.
Well, at least to my eyes anyway.

DRJ
Apr 05, 2012, 04:19 AM
Well im not against it either, infact im as interested as everyone else. My only concern is that if this makes the game crash more due to MAFs and this sort of things, it might not be worth it.
Well, at least to my eyes anyway.

That's why I said we should have a multimap test feature so the people playtesting this could report what happens on their machines so we would know what goes and what does not go for majority of players (what does a feature bring if it crashes with 90% of players?). Personally I like the galaxy map, not so much the solar system as pictured above. I dislike to have all of those planets close together...(what would that look like zooming out?) better moon or/and mars only and asteroids but that's only my taste.
Actually I do not think many blanks are bad, as the more blanks the less hardware requirements, right? It's not that I haven't got a good machine (finally I do) but as long as we are stuck with 3 GB...

Hydromancerx
Apr 05, 2012, 06:10 AM
@DRJ

It might not even work the way I said or even if it did be too much of a bother. If that is the case where its better just to have Earth, Moon, Mars and Galactic Maps all the same size then that's what we will have to do despite them not being the same size in real life.

My hope is eventually the multi-maps modders figure out to make them different sizes and we can then do them the right size but still separate. Basically planing for stuff that has not been invented yet (which is how most of C2C is planned).

ls612
Apr 05, 2012, 02:59 PM
@DRJ

It might not even work the way I said or even if it did be too much of a bother. If that is the case where its better just to have Earth, Moon, Mars and Galactic Maps all the same size then that's what we will have to do despite them not being the same size in real life.

My hope is eventually the multi-maps modders figure out to make them different sizes and we can then do them the right size but still separate. Basically planing for stuff that has not been invented yet (which is how most of C2C is planned).

I actually think that we should leave it for now like we originally intended, ie to have a seperate map for the moon and for Mars, and add an impassable terrain as a filler.

That impassable terrain could have very similar graphics to the graphic for unrevealed terrain, thus making it visually pretty, in addition to being a good gameplay mechanic.

rightfuture
Apr 05, 2012, 03:49 PM
Can't wait to see this. Awesome gentlemen :)

Hanny
Apr 07, 2012, 08:52 AM
Hydro

Do you intend that all maps will be in play at the same time, or that you move from one to another, so that for instance the first 5 civs to make it off planet bemoe the core civs for the new map, and the map they cam from is scrubbed of civs/units terrian etc, so as to again speed up play.

strategyonly
Apr 07, 2012, 09:13 AM
Basically planing for stuff that has not been invented yet (which is how most of C2C is planned).

:lol: true how true, but yeah, it works great.:p Because of the Great modders and help from the Community.

DRJ
Apr 07, 2012, 09:23 AM
:agree:

Yes, so true - and although - as Sartre philosophized - 'existence precedes essence', I am tempted to argue that in the case of C2C the anticipation of its essence of existence is preceding the existence itself... if you fade out the pre-existence of great modders and community, that is, of course. :think:

Hydromancerx
Apr 07, 2012, 01:32 PM
Hydro

Do you intend that all maps will be in play at the same time, or that you move from one to another, so that for instance the first 5 civs to make it off planet bemoe the core civs for the new map, and the map they cam from is scrubbed of civs/units terrian etc, so as to again speed up play.

All at the same time. You should be starting to explore the moon in modern era.

Koshling
Apr 07, 2012, 03:05 PM
Iapetus needs an alien statue!

DRJ
Apr 07, 2012, 03:50 PM
All at the same time. You should be starting to explore the moon in modern era.

Yeah but make sure that it would be very expansive to have units on the moon - so you could limit the early expansion by (maintenance/turn per moonunit=x% of overall commercial on income/turn of player), which to overcome would require to get more economy and better tech than 60's style techs to then expand with industries or steady colonies there (I guess I have to make my homework regarding that era as I actually don't know how many ideas have already been up for this!)

ls612
Apr 11, 2012, 05:38 PM
That would be nice...

I ran a test using task manager on how much more memory this mod uses, and came up with these results:


After initially allocating the map objects, the game's memory increased by less than 1K bytes for a map.
However, after allocating the plots (on a standard size map) for one map, it increased by 1048K.
The mod running 9 seperate standard size maps used 43,000K more memory than a vanilla BTS game with a standard size map.

Of course this was also at the beginning of the game, so as the game progresses and improvements are built, I would guess the memory difference would increase.

So it does appear to be a substantial increase in memory usage (~301,000K versus ~258,000K with 9 maps), but not an overly large one. I'm guessing most mods won't be running 9 maps at the same time, so there won't be quite this much of an increase.

This was just posted on the Parallel Maps modcomp thread. As you can see, adding 9 maps (!) increased memory usages by about 17%. According to my calculations, this means that if C2C uses 4 maps, with our start memory usage of about 800,000K that adding all these maps would make the startup memory usage about 860,000K. This seems like good news, although who knows what the numbers will look like in a developed game. Thoughts?

Hydromancerx
Apr 13, 2012, 09:48 PM
@Koshling and/or AIAndy

Have either of you tried it out to see if it works? If so how soon do you think a test map be included into C2C?

Koshling
Apr 14, 2012, 08:21 AM
@Koshling and/or AIAndy

Have either of you tried it out to see if it works? If so how soon do you think a test map be included into C2C?

I'm swamped with AI stuff. Not until at least v23 launch for me.

AIAndy
Apr 14, 2012, 08:42 AM
As you might have noticed, I have little time for modding at the moment (swamped in job work, writing papers and deliverables).
Once that lessens again, I'll get to this.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 02:05 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. And keep up the great work! :thumbsup:

Thunderbrd
Apr 14, 2012, 02:11 PM
wow... this is really awesome to see this eventually coming around into the game! Very exciting!

One thing I'm finding in playing C2C is that the enemy is lucky if they reach modern era before being destroyed (either that or the toughness balance is against ME and I'M lucky to reach the modern era myself!) Perhaps I need to play more with revolutions to allow for some greater political evolutions to counter this effect but nevertheless, my point remains:

At some point down the line, once we start breaking out of our solar system (or perhaps even during the attempt) shouldn't we start seeing alien cultures coming into play as our new adversaries? I doubt even real world Earth will fail to globalize before we start colonizing beyond our solar system at least - and surely we'll be meeting some new adversaries once we do! How could we plan to manage this?

BlueGenie
Apr 14, 2012, 02:32 PM
A few Galactic Barbarians should be the toughest, meanest, most dangerous barbarians ever, so much in fact that some we earthlings would need overwhelming amounts of units to stand a chance of keeping some colonies on the Galactic Map. Even with Great Generals it should be really tough.

Galactic Goody Huts on the other hand, sweetness on a planet where the natives are benevolent, unless it spawns those meany Galactic Barbs. Do you want to stir the hornets nest for the honey or leave it be to make sure you'll survive...

As for the memory footprint I'm certain they tested with same terrain on all maps. With C2C's varied and new terrain it'll probably kick up the memory footprint a notch or five. Remains to be tested.

Cheers

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 02:49 PM
Well the way I see it is that most "barbarians" will be what you call "Space Pirates". They are still human and originate form Earth just like you. However they are no longer associated with a specific nation.

The other and VERY rare barbarian type will be "aliens". These will most likely be one type of alien and have non-Earth type units. These will be very powerful and will show up most of the time in late game. Possibly from an event trigger.

BlueGenie
Apr 14, 2012, 04:22 PM
These will be very powerful and will show up most of the time in late game. Possibly from an event trigger.

Or a space Goody Hut, low probability.

Cheers

EDIT: Actually I was thinking of the rare Nation in outer space that was extremely hostile Aliens that will always be at war, never negotiate, and think themselves supreme enough not to have to surrender.

EditCheers

DRJ
Apr 14, 2012, 05:11 PM
Or a space Goody Hut, low probability.

Cheers

EDIT: Actually I was thinking of the rare Nation in outer space that was extremely hostile Aliens that will always be at war, never negotiate, and think themselves supreme enough not to have to surrender.

EditCheers

And they might have artefacts of technology you can't get otherwise - which is the reason you have to fight the big guys over there (deep in the galaxy), even if you are the big guy over here (on earth, moon), so cooperation is key then...

steampunk1880
Apr 20, 2012, 02:10 AM
Some questions about multiple maps: How would you possibly be able to have a trade route from a city on one map to a city on the other for purposes of resource sharing? Will learning satellites reveal all the world maps? Is that desirable, like maybe space telescopes and probes are implied? I mean I was kind of looking forward to exploring stuff on foot. And won't running multiple maps at once on anything other than duel size be completely impossible for people who don't have 8gb of ram on a 64 bit system like I do?

Hydromancerx
Apr 20, 2012, 05:10 AM
Some questions about multiple maps: How would you possibly be able to have a trade route from a city on one map to a city on the other for purposes of resource sharing? Will learning satellites reveal all the world maps? Is that desirable, like maybe space telescopes and probes are implied? I mean I was kind of looking forward to exploring stuff on foot. And won't running multiple maps at once on anything other than duel size be completely impossible for people who don't have 8gb of ram on a 64 bit system like I do?

I would imagine the Moon and Mars would be all revealed but the Galactic map would not (or at least limited).

Hydromancerx
Nov 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
Bumping since this topic of planet scale was brought up.

:bump: