View Full Version : City-State Discussion


Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 01:53 PM
With the addition of new types of city-states, the removal of a few old ones, and the fact that they're moving some around, what do you think they're going to do.

Obviously, militaristic has been stripped badly. There were originally 8 and now they're down to 5. I also think 50 would be a lot of City-States. We know Tyre is moving to Mercantile. I could see a couple others doing something like that.

So what do people think? How would you organize them and how many new ones would you add (on top of Marrekech, Prague, Lisbon, Antwerp, Jerusalem, Vatican City, and Zanzibar).

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 01:58 PM
I would imagine they have added new names for all the city states. They will have them balanced quite evenly I am sure.

blackcatatonic
Apr 07, 2012, 02:00 PM
You forgot Vatican City.

Personally I'm looking forward to the changes and having more choice when it comes to types of City-States, but possibly being more restricted: if there are usually a good handful of, say, Militaristic CSs per game, the number will be reduced, which means there will be more competition for influence. I think it will tie in very nicely with some of the changes to CS diplomacy that have been mentioned (multiple quests, elections, different ways of gaining influence and so on)

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 02:03 PM
Thanks, I added the Vatican. I think too many City-States can lead to adverse effects since I don't think they'll add more to the game. That's why I don't think they'll have 50. I wonder if they'll add more to a map or if we're keeping about the game number.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 02:05 PM
There are a whole world of city names out there they have not used yet. Yes and Vatican City is one of those. I am sure they will have plenty to go around to fill in the added city states. I don't think that they'll have more of one type than another, but who knows. Hopefully they will give us more heads up about mercantile city staes tomorrow. The should balance the different types of city states rather evenly. There should not be many more of one type than another. Als, they should be able to have a list to fill 50 names, fairly easily. The devs are not stupid they have the city states taken care of pretty neatly I'm sure.

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 02:05 PM
Less militaristic CS's also devalues United Front. It needs to be either buffed or moved out of the Order Tree into Patronage. Personally I think all CS SP's should be Patronage, period.

GenjiKhan
Apr 07, 2012, 02:06 PM
I think they should buff the units given by city-states somehow,to make them worthwhile . One of the ways to do it is to give Promotions that would only be avaliable when they got much xp(like March,Blitz,Woodsman,for example) without affecting the promotion rank(it would work like the Samurai and the Minuteman free promotions) .

For city-states,there are plenty of them in America . For example,Buenos Aires can be a Maritime city-state,Panama city and Havana can be a Mercantile city-state and either Caracas or Bogota may become an Militaristic city-state .

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 02:08 PM
Also with the new CS types it should be possible for the Educated Elite SP to always yield the same kind of GP depending on the CS type. Militaristic gives Khan (a.k.a. GG with 5 move). Religious gives GP. Cultural gives GA. Mercantile gives GM. Maritime gives GS. Adds a new strategy element, letting you prioritize further which CS to ally with.

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 02:15 PM
I think they should buff the units given by city-states somehow,to make them worthwhile

True. I'd like to see UU's that are not yours. Now that would make militaristic CS's really cool. And I'd like to see them gift some air units, so you can immediately rebase them. And I'd like to see them build some ships--it's possible you would otherwise have no coastal cities.

Liex
Apr 07, 2012, 02:16 PM
At least it's easy to add new ones. For instance, we got only 2 American CS (Quebec City and Rio). They could (and should) add Vancouver, Mexico City, So Paulo, Buenos Aires and so many others as Maritime, Mercantile or Cultural CS.

Personally I think it's hard to think of Militaristic examples, though, unless we look for historical cities like Troy and Ceuta. But it's hard to tag a modern city of "militaristic".

CYZ
Apr 07, 2012, 02:31 PM
I hope there won't be more CS. So if you have a game with for example 15 CS now, you can expect about 5 maritieme, 5 cultural and 5 millitaristic. In the expansion you'll still have 15 CS but you can expect 3 maritieme, 3 cultural, 3 militaristic, 3 religious and 3 mercantile CS.

Thus not more quantity but more variety I hope. This will be more fun, and create more choices for the player but also more competition.

As for names and such I don't really care much.

Optional
Apr 07, 2012, 02:50 PM
And not only variety in that way. What already is known for a long time is that CS's can have 2 or 3 quests going on at the same time. A lot of new ideas for quests have been made, and new ways of gaining influence are being added. It's less about just adding money, the developers wanted to make it more interesting.

I personally don't think the amount of civs or CS's per map needs to change. Some new info will need to be put into the map scripts to cover for the new resources, that at least, but basic placement and quantity of CS's can remain similar.

I'm not sure less military CS's will make competition for those CS's heavier. Until now a lot of AI civs simply don't bother about CS's, and the ones that do seem mainly interested in the strategic resources - notice a CS with some horses or iron is usually allied quickly.

CYZ
Apr 07, 2012, 02:59 PM
And not only variety in that way. What already is known for a long time is that CS's can have 2 or 3 quests going on at the same time. A lot of new ideas for quests have been made, and new ways of gaining influence are being added. It's less about just adding money, the developers wanted to make it more interesting.

I personally don't think the amount of civs or CS's per map needs to change. Some new info will need to be put into the map scripts to cover for the new resources, that at least, but basic placement and quantity of CS's can remain similar.

I'm not sure less military CS's will make competition for those CS's heavier. Until now a lot of AI civs simply don't bother about CS's, and the ones that do seem mainly interested in the strategic resources - notice a CS with some horses or iron is usually allied quickly.

I agree, I don't think there will be a particular strong competition for one type of CS. It will be very game dependant. Nobody is going to care about millitary CS in a peacefull game. But if many civs are going for culture victory the competition for cultural CS will be heavy. This is good, more variety per game.

awesome
Apr 07, 2012, 03:35 PM
right now, you can have up to 28 city-states on a map, so i don't see why there should be any more than 30, which is 6 of each type.

j51
Apr 07, 2012, 03:56 PM
More than 28 - say 40 or 50 - would be good for variety's sake. I've said it elsewhere before, but it's weird when city states are repeated in random maps more often than civs. Also, this Vatican City things is hilariously misguided.

chaotoroboto
Apr 07, 2012, 04:05 PM
Personally I think it's hard to think of Militaristic examples, though, unless we look for historical cities like Troy and Ceuta. But it's hard to tag a modern city of "militaristic".

Tel Aviv, Beirut, Kabul, Islamabad, Grozny, Khartoum, Tehran, Bogota, Kampala, Mogadishu, Colombo.

All of these are the capitals of highly militarized states, none of which approach the hegemonic nature that would indicate being included as a civilization (at least not in their modern incarnations). They're all also notable for other things, such as Tel Aviv being a mercantile center, but a "Militaristic" designation would reasonably capture their impact on the current world stage.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 04:07 PM
right now, you can have up to 28 city-states on a map, so i don't see why there should be any more than 30, which is 6 of each type.

The problem is there are plenty that fit well where they are and don't fit for others, so they would have to more or less be removed from the game to go down to 6. I did manage to think of a way to make it 8 cultural, 8 maritime, 8 mercantile, 6 religious, and 6 militaristic (36 total). To be more accurate, I have 9 maritime and need to move one to mercantile and I need to think of one militaristic (easy enough) and three religious. I'll post my thoughts and see if anyone has any suggestions (maybe enough for 6 each). I'll put an asterix if it's my speculation:

Cultural
Brussels
Bucharest
Florence
Kathmandu
Kuala Lampur
Monaco
Warsaw
Prague

Maritime
Cape Town
Genoa
Helsinki
Quebec City
Ragusa
Rio de Janeiro
Stockholm
Sydney
Venice

Militaristic
Almaty
Belgrade
Budapest
Hanoi
Sidon

Mercantile
Lisbon * (although likely)
Marrekech * (same)
Antwerp
Zanzibar * (same)
Tyre
Geneva * (complete speculation)
Singapore * (same)

Religious
Jerusalem
Vatican City
Lhasa *

Cicero63
Apr 07, 2012, 04:26 PM
The cities of Milan, Siena, Pisa, and Valletta can always be used

anandus
Apr 07, 2012, 04:28 PM
Isn't Milan one of the Celtic cities? I believe it was a Celtic urban center before the Romans captured it, right?
(Although seeing that civ-Celts are often highly anglocentric I doubt it)

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 04:29 PM
Milan is an easy militaristic. Siena would be cultural, I'd think. Valletta would be cool as either religious or militaristic (Knights Hospitallers). You could also add Asisi as a religious one. Pisa was under the yoke of Florence for much of this period, so I think they might be in a second tier. You could also have Naples.

That being said, while I'd love to include more Italian City-States, it also wouldn't hurt to include more diverse areas.

PhilBowles
Apr 07, 2012, 04:37 PM
Thanks, I added the Vatican. I think too many City-States can lead to adverse effects since I don't think they'll add more to the game. That's why I don't think they'll have 50. I wonder if they'll add more to a map or if we're keeping about the game number.

There's a cap of 18 CSes in any individual game (EDIT: Read further in the thread and found that the number is 28 - fairly sure I've never had that many in my games) - extra ones are there for variety, and so that you don't always get exactly the same number of CSes of each type. I doubt they'll add many more - we already know at least one is getting its type changed rather than added, and I suspect the religious CSes and the remaining mercantile ones are mostly going to replace existing CSes rather than be added on top of them. 25-30 would be a good number.

I think they should buff the units given by city-states somehow,to make them worthwhile . One of the ways to do it is to give Promotions that would only be avaliable when they got much xp(like March,Blitz,Woodsman,for example) without affecting the promotion rank(it would work like the Samurai and the Minuteman free promotions) .


Hmm, someone suggested UUs for militaristic CSes - I wonder if each militaristic CS could favour a different promotion, to make them more distinct (much as mercantile ones will apparently have unique trade goods).

For city-states,there are plenty of them in America . For example,Buenos Aires can be a Maritime city-state,Panama city and Havana can be a Mercantile city-state and either Caracas or Bogota may become an Militaristic city-state .

Am I the only one who would prefer city-states to actually take their name from city-states? I'm glad Vatican and Zanzibar are to be added alongside the existing 'real' historical or modern city-states of Monaco, Singapore, Florence, Venice, Ragusa, Sidon and Genoa, and arguably Geneva (which enjoyed semi-autonomy within the Holy Roman Empire), but how about such places as Syracuse (militaristic), Crete (cultured), Gibraltar (mercantile), Hong Kong (mercantile) etc.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 04:53 PM
I'm a fan of unique units for militaristic city-states. I was waiting until the finalized list was confirmed before I devoted myself to that task.

I don't think mercantile city-states will each have a unique one, but they'll have new luxuries randomly assigned to them.

I too prefer actual city-states when possible, but minor civ capitals are good too because they keep people happy even if their civ isn't in the game.

Beefie
Apr 07, 2012, 05:12 PM
Maybe instead of unique units which will only be useful in the era they belong, how about a unique promotion for all units which they give to you?
something along the lines of-
Edinburgh: Highlander- +10% combat strength in hills
(Not a great example as Edinburgh is now part of the Celtic empire, but you get the picture)

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 05:20 PM
Yeah, that's the idea. I had a few other ideas, but I'll wait and see what the list is.

Cicero63
Apr 07, 2012, 05:33 PM
I came up with a few more Italian City-States- Turin, Bologna, Urbino, Forli, and Syracuse (if its not already a Greek or Roman City)

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 05:41 PM
Syracuse is actually likely both a Greek and Roman city :p

The nice thing about Italy is, at one point, there were a ton of city-states (we could say the same thing about Greece if it weren't for that stupid Greek civilization in game ;) ). If Syracuse isn't on a list, that would be ideal for a city-state from the Greek world. Ilion (Troy) could also work. I think Knossos is on the Greek list, but that's a third.

That being said, the ones that were dominant from the Italian world were Florence, Venice, and Milan. Genoa and Siena are in a second category. The rest I'd probably put third tier. This is leaving out the Papal States and the Kingdom of Two Sicilies (Naples).

Still, the game is pretty Eurocentric as is without adding every single Italian City-State. But Milan is a glaring omission.

Jalkaa
Apr 07, 2012, 05:48 PM
If 2k did what Thalassicus did with Denmark (Removing Norwegian Ski Infantry in favour of a UB) there are several citystates avable.
Bergen: A very obvious mercentile CS.
Trondheim: Religious. Pilgrimage city because of ST. Olav
Stavanger: Maritime. Allways depentent on fisheries. Nowadays the senter for the oil industry in Norway.
Oslo: A comeback. but this time as a cultural CS

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 05:57 PM
It would be nice if they focused on things that were both independent and religious for religious city-states. Avignon was a religious center, but it's also very much part of France. Even if they got rid of the Norway part of Denmark-Norway, I wouldn't quite think Trondheim counts.

BTW, I'll throw in Ur for a Religious city-state. However, does anyone think any others can be moved from their lists to religious? I threw in Lhasa because that seemed like an obvious choice, but there's got to be others.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 05:57 PM
True. I'd like to see UU's that are not yours. Now that would make militaristic CS's really cool. And I'd like to see them gift some air units, so you can immediately rebase them. And I'd like to see them build some ships--it's possible you would otherwise have no coastal cities.

This idea I really like.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:03 PM
If Sidon is maintained as a militaristic city-state, I'd give them a Bireme as a UU. Hanoi can get a Viet Cong. After that, things get tougher. Belgrade should be the medieval Slavic Kingdom, but I don't know much about the area. Almaty should have some kind of horse/knight uu since they were a steppe people, but I'm not able to pin it down. No idea about Budapest or what period was their height. Probably the Kingdom of Hungary.

Jalkaa
Apr 07, 2012, 06:05 PM
I can live without Trondheim.
Zanzibar on the other hand belongs in civ V as a mercentile CS

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I think that one's a no brainer. I think we know for certain five mercantile city-states: Lisbon, Marrakech, Antwerp, Zanzibar, and Tyre.

Although, unless someone knows if it's been confirmed otherwise, Marrakech might be militaristic.

Jalkaa
Apr 07, 2012, 06:08 PM
Having said that, Trondheim was pilgimage center. (Because of St Olav)

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 06:09 PM
Milan is an easy militaristic. Siena would be cultural, I'd think. Valletta would be cool as either religious or militaristic (Knights Hospitallers). You could also add Asisi as a religious one. Pisa was under the yoke of Florence for much of this period, so I think they might be in a second tier. You could also have Naples.

That being said, while I'd love to include more Italian City-States, it also wouldn't hurt to include more diverse areas.

I like your ideas, I just feel there should be perhaps a few more militaristic ones. Many times I play with civs who can't make knights, so it's nice to try to find a militaristic CS that has horses, that I can befriend. I do realize thats a poor excuse, but there it is. :)

In any case when I play, I usually don't play with a huge amount of CSs anyway so having a variety of anywhere from 6 to 9 different ones per type is fine by me. Six per type would be plenty of variety in my book. One or two religious CS choices would be nice. Bethlehem and Cork would be good choices here.

Mercantile CSs could have some sort of trade ship as a UU. It could act sort of like a sea going Great Merchant in a way, that could be gifted.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:09 PM
Having said that, Trondheim was pilgimage center. (Because of St Olav)

Yeah, but half of Europe was a pilgrimage site for some saint or another.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 06:17 PM
Agrigento would also be a good name for a religious CS, although it is from ancient times.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:20 PM
Was it actually a significant center of religious worship or is it just that the temples are better preserved there?

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 06:20 PM
I think it's a lot cheaper on the development if the CS' simply rotate the other civs' UU's. If you come up with UU's just for the CS' you have to come up with art, balance, and all that. However, the mod community here is quite significant. Just have 2K use what people here have already got.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I think this is better a subject of mod discussion.

For those who think each group should have 6 city-states, can anyone think of which ones to move? I assume people think Religious will have more than three.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 06:24 PM
Was it actually a significant center of religious worship or is it just that the temples are better preserved there?

I have a friend of mine who is an archeologist, he works there. I am just trying to come up with ideas. They called the place "The Valley of the Temples" so I would say religion of the time played an important role. It would of course be better portrayed in the early game.

On site there is the Temple of Hera, the Temple of Concordia, the Temple of Heracles, the Temple of Olympian Zeus, the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Temple of Hephaestos, the Temple of Demeter, and the Temple of Asclepius (the God of Medicine).

There is one question I had. Your idea is for each CS to have its own UU? If that is the case its brilliant. Of course that would be a lot of units, but they would not be used all game long. I believe that would go a long way to make the game interesting.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 06:30 PM
I think it's called that because the temples are better preserved. The best-preserved Greek ruins are in Sicily anyway. I think places like Delphi, Olympia, and Delos were more religious centers.

As for giving each a UU, I've been thinking about the idea, but it obviously needs to be done one step at a time because it could be too monumental otherwise.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 06:40 PM
I think it's called that because the temples are better preserved. The best-preserved Greek ruins are in Sicily anyway. I think places like Delphi, Olympia, and Delos were more religious centers.

As for giving each a UU, I've been thinking about the idea, but it obviously needs to be done one step at a time because it could be too monumental otherwise.

Yes, Agrigento is less well known typically, but I imagine it had its role to play religiously for the people that lived there back then. The Greeks needed places of worship, while in Sicily. The temples there are well preserved. In any case, it would be a nice backup for a religious CS name is all. They can be hard to come by.

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 06:59 PM
IMHO, giving CS their own UU's is too much work for too little spice. That's what I think. But if you do it, at least you can give CS UU's that were rejected before for being overpowered. I will give that much.

nokmirt
Apr 07, 2012, 07:03 PM
IMHO, giving CS their own UU's is too much work for too little spice. That's what I think. But if you do it, at least you can give CS UU's that were rejected before for being overpowered. I will give that much.

Unless you give one UU per type of CS. Then a chance to either recieve the CSs UU, rather than a regular spawned unit. That could work nicely.

Gucumatz
Apr 07, 2012, 07:42 PM
Tula/Tullan/Tollan for a Religious Mesoamerican City State. Supposedly the city of creation/spreading of the Maya peoples.

Monte Alban for a Mercantile City State, Teotihuacan reclassified as a city state (Militaristic/Religious), etc.

Tzintzuntzan as a militaristic City State. Some more I am missing for sure.

PhilBowles
Apr 07, 2012, 08:16 PM
Syracuse is actually likely both a Greek and Roman city :p

Well, it was in essence a Greek city in Roman territory - it was famously the Romans who invaded it and killed Archimedes. I think in older versions of Civ it was a Roman city, but they didn't have CSes then. Don't recall seeing it in the current version.

The nice thing about Italy is, at one point, there were a ton of city-states (we could say the same thing about Greece if it weren't for that stupid Greek civilization in game ;) ). If Syracuse isn't on a list, that would be ideal for a city-state from the Greek world. Ilion (Troy) could also work. I think Knossos is on the Greek list, but that's a third.

I did get a chuckle out of Troy turning up as a city-state in Wonders of the Ancient World, and yes I think it probably should be one of them.

Tula/Tulan/Tulum for a Religious Mesoamerican City State. Supposedly the city of creation/spreading of the Maya peoples.

And in actuality a major Mayan trading centre (hence mercantile would probably be more appropriate). All the major Mayan cities were in essence city-states, but as we're getting the Maya as a civilization, it seems very unlikely Tulum won't be on their city list, so that at least is unavailable.

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 08:23 PM
Actually, the ancient city Syracuse appears once, for Greece. I use "ancient city" modifier because the upstate New York city Syracuse is an Iroquois city.

After reflecting more on Troy, I think it would be problematic to make the militaristic. The city certainly fought in many wars, but we know this because of how many times it was burned to the ground. They were more likely to have been a juicy target than an instigator. Certainly, whatever historical truth there is in the Iliad, they were not the aggressor there. To me, Mercantile makes more sense.

Gucumatz
Apr 07, 2012, 08:27 PM
Well, it was in essence a Greek city in Roman territory - it was famously the Romans who invaded it and killed Archimedes. I think in older versions of Civ it was a Roman city, but they didn't have CSes then. Don't recall seeing it in the current version.



I did get a chuckle out of Troy turning up as a city-state in Wonders of the Ancient World, and yes I think it probably should be one of them.



And in actuality a major Mayan trading centre (hence mercantile would probably be more appropriate). All the major Mayan cities were in essence city-states, but as we're getting the Maya as a civilization, it seems very unlikely Tulum won't be on their city list, so that at least is unavailable.

Tulum has never been on a Maya City List before?

Why would it be now?

Edit: Misspellings and different versions of names always get me.

I apologize. Tulum in fact has never appeared. However an alternate name "Zama" has appeared. However, was not the city I wished to say which was Tula.

Gucumatz
Apr 07, 2012, 08:30 PM
Lets be clear Tulum was never a "Maya City". It was significantly important to the Maya, but wasn't a Maya City.

======


Edit 2: Nevermind big fail on my part. Looks like I found a way to misspell things.

I meant to only spell Tula/Tullan/Tollan rather than Tulum (which was indeed a Maya city). The city in fact I was trying to say was the Toltec city rather than the later named "Zama". Sorry about the confusion.

However yes it was city that came later into the fold of the Maya as well and wasnt originally Maya

PhilBowles
Apr 07, 2012, 08:51 PM
Actually, the ancient city Syracuse appears once, for Greece. I use "ancient city" modifier because the upstate New York city Syracuse is an Iroquois city.

Okay, well that's just weird. Whoever would have thought Hiwatha was so well-versed in Classical European history that he'd name settlements after places from the Hellenic world?

After reflecting more on Troy, I think it would be problematic to make the militaristic. The city certainly fought in many wars, but we know this because of how many times it was burned to the ground. They were more likely to have been a juicy target than an instigator. Certainly, whatever historical truth there is in the Iliad, they were not the aggressor there. To me, Mercantile makes more sense.[/QUOTE]

The trouble with the Civ V division intuitively is that, for almost any city you care to name, mercantile will make most sense, including (and perhaps especially) for maritime states. Most major cities are trading hubs, often built on rivers or coastlines. Those that have survived as self-sufficient city-states are almost through necessity major commercial centres or rely on income from particular trade goods. While some cities are known primarily for culture, and a small number for their religious significance, very few can be considered wholly militaristic. Troy is, nonetheless, best-known for its involvement in the eponymous war.

Lets be clear Tulum was never a "Maya City". It was significantly important to the Maya, but wasn't a Maya City.

Ah, that makes sense. I was somewhat confused as Tulum is actually a late-period Maya city, as well as the major trading port for Coba, and certainly when I was at the site last year I didn't recall any reference to Maya creation myths.

Pouakai
Apr 07, 2012, 08:54 PM
Venice should be merchantile, while Wellington could always be Maritime :mischief:

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 09:01 PM
The problem is, if you take away Venice as Maritime (which I think they might do) you're not really left with many maritime city-states that actually had an impressive navy. I don't think maritime was originally meant to mean "quiet fishing village" ;)

Keejus
Apr 07, 2012, 09:27 PM
I don't get why there should be so few City States. In my mind, they should try to keep the number twice as big as the number of civs, so default settings would give you the same variety overall.

Incidentally, civs not currently in the game are an untapped source of city states. Athens and Sparta would be good cultural/military states in games without Alexander, North America could have at least Oneida, Onondaga and Teotihuacan, you could bring back Seoul and Copenhagen, and it'd free up Mecca as a religious CS in non-Arabia games...

Louis XXIV
Apr 07, 2012, 09:32 PM
Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).

tetley
Apr 07, 2012, 09:36 PM
The problem is, if you take away Venice as Maritime (which I think they might do) you're not really left with many maritime city-states that actually had an impressive navy. I don't think maritime was originally meant to mean "quiet fishing village"

You know...why don't Maritime CS's have kick-butt navies? They should. Don't piss off Venice, or they'll blockade you.

wobuffet
Apr 08, 2012, 02:30 AM
Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).
I think that is random, actually: I've had games where almost half of CSs were Militaristic and practically maybe only 4 or so of the 16 were Cultural.

Optional
Apr 08, 2012, 04:28 AM
I don't see much in giving Unique Units to City States, not that I'm against it, but it wouldn't add much for me.

What I would find more interesting is giving unique flavours to the existing regular civs, affecting their interest in certain types of CS. What I mean is, Mongols could be made more interested in military CS, India in maritime CS, Netherlands in mercantile CS etc.
Currently an AI civ is either interested in all of them or in none of them. It would be more interesting for gameplay and a nice touch to diversify this.

Gedemon
Apr 08, 2012, 04:49 AM
Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).

You can have 41 CS in game, there's a CS mod in the YnAEMP's (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=397387) thread to reach that number (and I would also suggest mihaifx's City States Leaders mod, same thread).

Also a reminder about City States Unique Units, you can try this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9848934#post9848934), it's modifiable so you can add your own list of UU for CS...

Yeah, right, that's a bit of self promotion, but from the beginning I've found that CS lacked personality, thus the above mods...

Kimuyama
Apr 08, 2012, 04:53 AM
What if city states had the same unique units as their "nearest" (favourably culture-wise, but also geographically) real world civilization?

For example:
Sanzibar would have either Persian Immortals, Arabic Camel Archers or what ever Ethiopia has for unique unit.
Marrakech would have Camel Archers or Mandekalu.
Singapore would have Cho-Ko-Nu or Naresuan’s Elephants.
Kathmandu would have Indian War Elephants.
Sydney with English Longbowmen and SOTLs.
Quebec with either French Musketeers and Foreign Legions, American Minutemen and B17s or Iroquois Mohawks.
Stockholm and Helsinki with Berserkers and Norwegian Ski Infantry (hehe).
Rio with Spanish (I know it's technically Portuguese, but they aint' in the game) Tercios and Conquistadors.
Vatican City with Roman Legionaires and scorpions.
Jerusalem with either Ottoman, Arab, Roman or Byzantine units.

I suppose you get the idea.

Optional
Apr 08, 2012, 07:57 AM
Also a reminder about City States Unique Units, you can try this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9848934#post9848934), it's modifiable so you can add your own list of UU for CS...

Yeah, right, that's a bit of self promotion, but from the beginning I've found that CS lacked personality, thus the above mods...I'm glad you didn't refrain from mentioning this just because it's your own brainchild. Also we all know the developers are interested in seeing what mods guys like you come up with, so this is very relevant.
I have to admit I personally didn't know about your mod, I'm happy you linked to it.

D0MIN1C
Apr 08, 2012, 09:04 AM
How about Visby as a mercantile city-state? It wasn't technically a city-state but... Its island location gave it quite some independence...

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 09:11 AM
It seems independent enough, the concern is if it's significant enough. It apparently was part of the Hanseatic League before they revoked their membership due to piracy and often feuded with them, but I'm not sure what else there is to say.

The talk of piracy reminded me of a cool maritime city-state suggestion: Port Royal - essentially a Mos Eisley style hive of scum and villainy but also the capital of Caribbean piracy.

D0MIN1C
Apr 08, 2012, 09:17 AM
It seems independent enough, the concern is if it's significant enough. It apparently was part of the Hanseatic League before they revoked their membership due to piracy and often feuded with them, but I'm not sure what else there is to say.

The talk of piracy reminded me of a cool maritime city-state suggestion: Port Royal - essentially a Mos Eisley style hive of scum and villainy but also the capital of Caribbean piracy.

Visby WAS quite a player from the 12th to the 14th century (as much as I remember).

Port Royal? Militaristic city-state? Maritime? I don't know... xD

Also, Havana was an important drop off point for Spanish expeditions, kinda the capital of early New Spain, so I think it would make a sensible city-state.

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 09:20 AM
Havana divides it into two periods, one of which is problematic. The early period, it isn't an independent state (technically, Port Royal wasn't either, but it was a de facto independent state). Really, for Havana, the relevant period is post-1900. I'm not entirely sure it was or is significant enough.

albie_123
Apr 08, 2012, 09:25 AM
Well, it certainly was a booming centre of finance for US interests pre-1959, even if those interests weren't always by the books. ;) They were responsible for a huge amount of the sugar imported into the US, as well, and Tobacco, obviously.

I wouldn't be surprised if Habana is changed to Mercantile.

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 09:40 AM
I could see a mercantile Havana.

That being said, we've suggested ten or more Mercantile city-states so far and I think they're planning on moving some around. I don't think we need to worry about any more (although I'll probably take a look at this thread if I ever try to mod more).

I guess the biggest question is still religious city-states. Most of them fall within territories of other civs. Vatican City technically does too, but it's at least an independent state. Does anyone think if any of the cultural city-states might get moved? I suggest Lhasa, but I don't know enough about some of the Southeast Asian ones (Kuala Lampur, Kathmandu) to know if they have any religious significance. Warsaw might count, but they were more of a religious recipient than a religious influencer.

albie_123
Apr 08, 2012, 09:44 AM
I know it's now a part of Germany, but maybe Wittenburg, the origin of the Reformation?

Honestly, religious CS's will be a hard one to predict. There just aren't enough that aren't already part of another Civilization (Mecca, for example).

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 09:48 AM
That's another good one that falls in my list of hard to include. The origins of Buddhism and Hinduism are within India. The Holiest sites of Islam are part of Arabia. The religious sites of Christianity outside of Rome and Jerusalem are with France and Germany. I could see them going for ancient or native religions, though. Those are at least separate.

albie_123
Apr 08, 2012, 09:50 AM
It would also make a lot of sense for the religious city-states to be based on native religions, since the holy cities for the 'organised' religions will naturally be inside existing Civilizations in-game. (I actually found Jerusalem an odd inclusion for that reason - they'll never found Judaism or Christianity, due to them being a city-state!)

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 10:01 AM
While true, I think the important thing is whether they inspire faith in other civilizations. For example, would being an ally to Jerusalem be a benefit to you religiously. I think it certainly makes sense in that respect.

Kimuyama
Apr 08, 2012, 10:17 AM
How about Visby as a mercantile city-state? It wasn't technically a city-state but... Its island location gave it quite some independence...

If i remember correctly the entire island was independent during the viking-age, before it got conquered back and forth by Sweden and Denmark a couple of times, before stayinge in the Swedish realm, but yes, they are quite independent, and they'd be interesting as a merchantile city state.

Also, Old Uppsala (Gamla Uppsala) would fit neatly as a religious City State, as it was a center of Norse Paganism

nokmirt
Apr 08, 2012, 10:29 AM
I want to ask them how many religious city states there are? And will there be an even number of each type of city state?

albie_123
Apr 08, 2012, 10:47 AM
On the topic of Mercantile CS's, I'd like to see Tobacco as a new resource. It's certainly been influential in history - for better or worse.

Gucumatz
Apr 08, 2012, 10:51 AM
On the topic of Mercantile CS's, I'd like to see Tobacco as a new resource. It's certainly been influential in history - for better or worse.

Agree, plenty of other thing too to want. Glass, Salt, Tobacco, Coffee, etc.

tetley
Apr 08, 2012, 11:09 AM
What about coca and hemp?

GenjiKhan
Apr 08, 2012, 11:14 AM
What about coca and hemp?


It would be restricted to mods I guess,because they're too controversial .

Pangur Bn
Apr 08, 2012, 11:33 AM
Vilnius (Lithuanian pagans), Dublin (British Isles Norse) and Sarai (Golden Horde Turks) would be good military centres. Port Royal for pirates?

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 11:38 AM
BTW, Milan is a cultural city-state (I would've gone militaristic) and Colombo is mercantile. This leads me to believe that there are quite a few new additions and not just 6-8 each.

blackcatatonic
Apr 08, 2012, 01:35 PM
Agree, plenty of other thing too to want. Glass, Salt, Tobacco, Coffee, etc.

I think Coffee was spotted in the PAX demo. I hope there's tea as well.

Glass would be great as one of the unique Mercantile CS resources.

tetley
Apr 08, 2012, 01:38 PM
It would be restricted to mods I guess,because they're too controversial .

I guess I'll be doing a mod, then. I want my civilization trading drugs. :) LOLOLOL.

GenjiKhan
Apr 08, 2012, 01:52 PM
I guess I'll be doing a mod, then. I want my civilization trading drugs. :) LOLOLOL.

When you do it,just don't forget to warn us when it's over :mischief: