After my Corporate Russia Domination (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11309852#post11309852) game, I have since been planning an American game where similarly I do not build Cottages or adopt Capitalism. The idea is closest to the visions of Thomas Jefferson, whom I greatly admire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Thomas_Jefferson_by_Rembrandt_Peale%2C_1800.jpg/858px-Thomas_Jefferson_by_Rembrandt_Peale%2C_1800.jpg

Specifically,

(1) America is to be an agrarian society. Therefore it will build no Cottages. Cottages in captured cities must be replaced with other improvements.

(2) America is to serve the interests of the common people, not Capitalistic elites. Therefore, America starts with Egalitarianism instead of Capitalism, and may not switch out of Egalitarianism.

(3) America represents Republican ideals. Therefore it starts with Republic, and cannot switch out of it.

(4) America respects individual liberty and private property. It will not adopt State Property, Totalitarianism, Autocracy, or Supreme Council.

(5) America supports religious freedom, and believes in the separation of church and state. It will stay in Secularism.

The choice of No Cottage Egalitarianism is not simply a deliberate handicap. This game is to prove a point, and the point is given the current (April 7th, 2012 SVN version) benefits of Cottages and Capitalism, Cottaging + Capitalism is NOT the best strategy for America. Specialist Economy + Egalitarianism is. There are multiple reasons for this:

(1) Capitalism hurrying is only worth it for a civ with an unbeatable mid/late game economy, such as Trading Company England. For America, you will not genuinely be able to hurry anything (Westminster Palace none withstanding) until after Refrigeration/Combustion, by which time you won't need to hurry anything anyway.

(2) Capitalism's bonus to Towns is irrelevant to America. American Cottages do not have sufficient time to grow into Towns before the 20th century, by which time you should have already finished all your game-winning moves. Republic helps in theory, but it becomes worthless with one Plague. And we all know, there WILL be Plagues.

(3) America's early tech race discourages Capitalism. As America, you need to be the first (or almost the first) to Assembly Line, Electricity, Radio, Mass Media, Refrigeration, Combustion, Industrialism, due to the synergy between these techs, Wonders, your UU, UB, and UHV. If you want to have a good time you also need to be among the first to Fascism, Flight, Plastics, and Biology. Biology Farm + Cereal Industry => Egalitarianism/Representation Scientists gives you much faster tech rate than measly Cottages which keep dying to Plagues. And you will really need those GSs for Academies in your numerous supercities.

(4) America's Wonder requirements demand a Production-based economy. If you want no Happiness/Culture problems as America, you pretty much need ALL the Electricity - Mass Media Wonders, in addition to your UHV Wonders. There is simply no way you are going to complete all those if you waste your best Plain tiles on Cottages. Watermill/Farm is the way to go. Which means you will have powerful Production, which means you will have Great Depressions on Capitalism. Seriously, Capitalism is counterproductive to America's goals. Switch out of it.

(5) America's numerous Rivers are wasted with Cottaging. Just ask yourself. Would you rather fast Tech Electricity (you start with Scientific Method for Celestia's sake), and Watermill all those delicious River tiles, or watch pitiful Cottages grow (which is slower than grass growing in the middle of a Russian winter)? Watermills are the best improvements in the game, State Property or not. If you don't use it to max you're gimping yourself.

Setting is Epic/Emperor as usual. 3000 BC since I hate mega-Spain and Phillip's stupid face.

Result is a 1930 UHV, score is 8342/Lech Walesa. I should note that I built every Wonder that exists after my spawn, since the combination of Tech/Production for this America is simply peerless. I am also able to tech past Genetics/Satellites before 1930, something which I have never been able to do as a Cottaging America.

Witness the No-Cottage economy:

Central Great Plains, the heart of American Productivity. Ironworks Denver built many wonders as usual, including TGD, and the Apollo/Manhattan Projects. I did not build the Internet because I have absolute Tech lead. Chicago is the National Park/CERN/Academy Great Scientist farm. I ran out of GS names for America by end game, not just GM names (which I always run out of).

http://i40.tinypic.com/noj2m9.jpg

East Coast, the origin of American glory. Washington is the usual decent Production city. It built most of the American Navy. New York is the usual Wall Street/Opera House Great Merchant farm with a party of Settled GMs. Boston is a decent Science city and the Espionage center, with a hurried Pentagon, Interpol, and Lubyanka.

http://i39.tinypic.com/r1gdbr.png

West Coast. This used to be a liability for America, as it was Food-poor. The opposite is true now with the new maps. San Francisco/San Diego both contributed GPs before end game.

http://i39.tinypic.com/35apxqr.png

Caribbean. Just to show that there is no need to hurry anything even in your canonically Production-poor cities. All you need is to run some Engineers with a few Workshops here and there.

http://i41.tinypic.com/dvr149.png

World Map.

http://i40.tinypic.com/e6da10.png

Corporations Screen, 1930 end game. I only have one Vassal (China) in this game until the very end so I'm very far from hogging all the resources on the map. Except the Oil, of course.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2epm59k.png

Did you switch to Environmentalism?

Did you switch to Environmentalism?
I tried. It actually hurts my economy, despite the large amounts of Forest Preserves/Windmills. And with fast Genetics I don't need the Health benefits.

I think a general rule of thumb is to stay in Free Market if most of your cities are Coastal, because the tremendous bonus it provides with Customs House.

But, if you're constantly at war with everyone then perhaps FM and Foreign Trade Routes are not so important. But again, America (and England/Netherlands/Portugal) should favor peace and Foreign Trade IMO because all its Foreign Trade Routes are cross-continental.

Very reasonable. I tried a India game (on Monarch of course) and also have the feeling that Capitalism is not so useful if you do not have a good enough tech lead since there's not enough economy to hurry production (even with Westminster Palace).

Very reasonable. I tried a India game (on Monarch of course) and also have the feeling that Capitalism is not so useful if you do not have a good enough tech lead since there's not enough economy to hurry production (even with Westminster Palace).
But you'd think with a UB that gives +20% :gold:, Cottages might be worth it for America?

No.

Also, Malls give +3 Happiness if you build all the Electricity - Mass Media Wonders. So it actually helps a Specialist Economy too. In fact, its combination of Happiness and +%:gold: bonus is best for a Specialist - FM Trade - Corporations economy. The one I just demonstrated.

By contrast, Royal Exchange is available MUCH earlier, and only provides +% :gold: bonus. So England is the ultimate Capitalism - Free Market civ. That said, London and other cities on the British Isles should still Farm and run Specialists.

Say, what's your opinion on Windmills?

I know in vanilla BtS, there's this huge discourse on the value of Mines vs. Windmills.

Say, what's your opinion on Windmills?

I know in vanilla BtS, there's this huge discourse on the value of Mines vs. Windmills.
For every civ except America (and perhaps Prussia now) you should Mine everywhere, because:

(1) You don't have fast access to Replaceable Parts, let alone Electricity. So Windmills will have pathetic yield.

(2) Your early game should be plagued by Happiness problems, so the + :food: bonus from Windmills is a bane, not a boon.

(3) There is a very decent probability of discovering metals/gems with Mine if you run them for a reasonable amount of time. All metals/gems are Corporate resources, and each one of them is very valuable.

Then post Replaceable parts you begin to convert some of the Mines to Windmills (in your GP farms and food poor cities, e.g. South Africa & Australia). And post-Electricity you convert all the Mines which haven't discovered any metals/gems into Windmills. Unless you have major Happiness problems. You can Windmill prior to Replaceable Parts to save some Worker time too.

For America, if you're going SE (like I do) without Capitalism then either is OK, since you have fast Electricity AND fast Railroad. I like Electricity way better than Railroad (in this game China researched Steel/Railroad for me while I went Radio/Biology), so I go Windmills.

If you're going CE/Capitalist America (whose suckage is the main point of this thread) then definitely Windmills. Mines will push you further towards Great Depressions.

I don't think +%:gold: bonus applies to commerce very well, since you'll use most of your commerce on research. So cottages won't benefit much from it. England can benefit quite a lot from Trading company, but its UB is not such an important factor. After all, 15% is only 7.5 percent of 200%.

For every civ except America (and perhaps Prussia now) you should Mine everywhere, because:

(1) You don't have fast access to Replaceable Parts, let alone Electricity. So Windmills will have pathetic yield.

(2) Your early game should be plagued by Happiness problems, so the + :food: bonus from Windmills is a bane, not a boon.

(3) There is a very decent probability of discovering metals/gems with Mine if you run them for a reasonable amount of time. All metals/gems are Corporate resources, and each one of them is very valuable.

For America, if you're going SE (like I do) without Capitalism then either is OK, since you have fast Electricity AND fast Railroad. I like Electricity way better than Railroad (in this game China researched Steel/Railroad for me while I went Radio/Biology), so I go Windmills.

If you're going CE/Capitalist America (whose suckage is the main point of this thread) then definitely Windmills. Mines will push you further towards Great Depressions.

I'd say switch from mines to windmills (at least for grassland hills) after you have Replaceable Parts and when your city does not have health/happiness issues. Stick to mines if you really need that production.

I don't think +%:gold: bonus applies to commerce very well, since you'll use most of your commerce on research. So cottages won't benefit much from it. England can benefit quite a lot from Trading company, but its UB is not such an important factor. After all, 15% is only 7.5 percent of 200%.
200%? Are you counting +100% from Wall Street? For every other city it's +100%, and an extra 15% or 20% can make a lot of difference.

This once again shows that Research Institute is the best UB, because +% :science: bonus ALWAYS applies, and SE pwns.

I'd say switch from mines to windmills (at least for grassland hills) after you have Replaceable Parts and when your city does not have health/happiness issues. Stick to mines if you really need that production.
Yeah, forgot to mention that. Updated my post just as you posted this.

There are some really good city spots on the map which are really poor in food. Mostly Plains and/or Hills, such as Lower Volga, Australia, South Africa, the Brazilian Highlands, or even the Deccan. These spots can be Windmilled asap.

200%? Are you counting +100% from Wall Street? For every other city it's +100%, and an extra 15% or 20% can make a lot of difference.

This once again shows that Research Institute is the best UB, because +% :science: bonus ALWAYS applies, and SE pwns.


You do count the original 100% don't you? :D

And Research Institute is enabled by Electricity not Computers, which is another huge factor.

Point well proven :goodjob:

Question is, how to solve it? I think CE and Capitalism should be more in encouraged especially for America, considering its both the origin of suburbs and a stronghold for Capitalism in the 20th century. Plus, all modern cottage graphics are clearly modeled after America ;)

Instant ideas:
- connect the American UP to cottages, or at least cottage growth. It needs to be fixed and become more powerful anyway. The immigration event could bump nearby cottages a level, for example.
- connect the American UB to cottages. Instead of happiness bonuses that favor SE (and require you to build wonders to make full use of), it could have a commerce bonus for cottages.

I strong believe that it has little to do with America (which is just one example). The American UP is useful, if a bit too simple, and the American UB's foremost selling point is its versatility. America also needs the Happiness no matter what type of economy it runs, due to its unique lack of Luxuries, Religion, or Vassals for a very log time combined with its UP and food rich cities.

The issue is SE vs. CE in general.

(1) SE is universally acknowledged to be more powerful than CE in Civ IV, from Vanilla to BTS, especially on higher difficulties. DoC's Emperor is somewhat like BTS Immortal in terms of difficulty and skill IMO. It inherits the original bias of SE > CE in BTS.

(2) SE should be more powerful than CE in the most capable hands, because:
(2A) Production is always more powerful than Commerce because it is far more flexible;
(2B) Specialists are always more powerful than Cottages, again because it is far more flexible and versatile.
The intuition is from optimization theory. If you have more parameters to run optimization with, you will have a better optimum. SE has more parameters. The best SE player should always play better than the best CE player.

(3) In BTS there is a common (and oft abused) Trait, Financial. It promotes CE. In DoC there are no traits, and Financial becomes exclusive to Mali instead (in a sense). Even in BTS, Philosophical is comparable or even more powerful than Financial. In DoC Philosophical is replicable for every civ with Republic + Scholasticism.

What we need are ways to make CE - Capitalism more useful and effective in general, not just for America. We should encourage diverse playstyles. Ideally, Russia should be reasonably effective with Capitalism CE too, just as how America should be effective with Egalitarian SE.

Very obvious, and yet very effective fixes for Capitalism:

(1) Instead of +2 :commerce: to Towns, it should provide +1 :commerce: to Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages. This will make Cottages worth it. Towns are still better than Villages with Parliamentarism.

(2) When I hurry buy something, that thing should appear INSTANTLY like with Drafting, not "1 turn after". This will make Capitalism much more effective, when
(2A) Hurrying an army to deal with DOWs. This will allow a Capitalistic civ to truly focus on economy in times of peace.
(2B) Hurrying mass Cultural buildings in conquered cities. This will help Capitalistic civs conquer better. It will not be effective as Egalitarian Artists, but it's a start.
Seriously, the "1 turn after" thing SUCKS GIANT BALLS OF FIRE. I play on Epic and it still annoys me to no end. On Normal it's just intolerable.

(3) Hurry cost should be lower for civs with less than monstrous economy (i.e. Trading Company England). I suggest a simple fix of giving a universal -25% Hurry Cost to all civs whose GDP is not world No.1. This will help weaker Capitalistic civs (early America, Netherlands) catch up faster. Additionally, remove or lessen the inherent +100% Hurry Cost for Wonders. Seriously, +50% is bad enough. +100% means I'll just Farm and switch to Engineers.

Nevermind, you edited your post.

Other things that need to be fixed are Plague and Great Depression mechanics.

(1) As it is Plague vastly favors SE over CE, because your Cottages take eons longer to recover than the population of a (Farmed and Food-rich) city. This can be changed by allowing Plagues to degrade Cottages only by 1 Level. Currently, a single Plague can reduce a Town back to a Cottage. This is a major reason why CE is useless before Medicine.

(2) Great Depression needs a complete overhaul. The player should face interesting challenges and choices against a Great Depression, not a flat Stability penalty with no means to combat. As it stands now GDs are simply to be avoided like Plague (pun intended) as there is no way to deal with it.

New GD Mechanics (to replace the stupid flat Stability hit):

(A) Unemployment: -3 Happiness in all cities. 1 Angry Citizen in your 6 Largest cities (counters Parliamentarism).

(B) Policy Disruption: Player's Economic Civic is auto-switched to Self-Sufficiency.

(C) Rampant Inflation: +100% Inflation cost during Great Depression.

(D) Bankruptcies: All your cities loose a random non-Wonder building, similar to the Powerful Hurricane Event. The priority ones are Markets, Banks, Factories, and Industrial Parks. If none of these 4 are present in a city then a random building is lost.

The Rationale is, if your economy is really unbeatable with a gigantic Treasury, you should be able to recover from GD relatively fast:

(A) By turning up the Culture Slider.
(B) Well, no way around this one really.
(C) By using up your Treasury. This is also assuaged by the Federal Reserve Event (have I told you it's my favorite Event?).
(D) By hurry-buying all the buildings you lost.

The overall effect is that your Tech is slowed down for a few turns and your Treasury is emptied. It should only be a real problem if you do nothing or if your economy was poor to begin with.

American UP:

The Power of Suburbia

[-insert Cottage effect-]

Also, I think Great Depression mechanics are fine how they are.
I'd rather take the stability hit over some of that other stuff that's been suggested.

American UP:

The Power of Suburbia

[-insert Cottage effect-]

So CE/Capitalism is to be something exclusive to America?

I am of the opinion that Capitalism was invented in Renaissance Italy, and got really developed and reached its ultimate form in Protestant Europe. America is a late-comer to the party, and not even the best at it IMO.

America IRL also runs a large number of Specialists (Artists, like you; Scientists, like me; Merchants, like Steve Jobs. Seriously we are all Specialists in large cities - we would not exist in this form if America is pure CE) and produced a huge number of GPs. It should be just as effective with Egalitarianism SE.


Also, I think Great Depression mechanics are fine how they are.
I'd rather take the stability hit over some of that other stuff that's been suggested.
The current GD means only one thing: AVOID IT. Because the Stability hit is actually sizable and permanent, for the same reason that Golden Ages permanently hurt your Stability.

It is also, IMHO, unforgivably boring.

Another thing that requires rebalancing is Rivers.

There are many more River tiles in RFC/DoC than in BTS. In BTS Watermills rule, too, but they are limited because River tiles are precious and few. In any case, if you Cottage a River tile instead of Watermill it, it's a waste.

What I suggest is a rebalance of River tile yields that doesn't overwhelmingly favor Watermills.

(1) Windmills start with 1 more :commerce:. No change to initial Yields of Watermill.

(2) No changes to Replaceable Parts bonus to Windmills and Watermills.

(3) Electricity gives +1 :commerce: bonus to Windmills and Watermills instead of +2.

(4) New Building: Wharf. Available with Optics. Cost between Harbor and Levee. Requires Coast OR River (like the Dutch Dike).
Effect: +1 :commerce: from River tiles in this city.

Hopefully this will make Cottaging a River tile worth it.

So CE/Capitalism is to be something exclusive to America?

I am of the opinion that Capitalism was invented in Renaissance Italy, and got really developed and reached its ultimate form in Protestant Europe. America is a late-comer to the party, and not even the best at it IMO.

America IRL also runs a large number of Specialists (Artists, like you; Scientists, like me; Merchants, like Steve Jobs. Seriously we are all Specialists in large cities - we would not exist in this form if America is pure CE) and produced a huge number of GPs. It should be just as effective with Egalitarianism SE.


The current GD means only one thing: AVOID IT. Because the Stability hit is actually sizable and permanent, for the same reason that Golden Ages permanently hurt your Stability.

It is also, IMHO, unforgivably boring.

Religion was only incidental to capitalism, if Mary made it 10 years longer England would have remained firmly Catholic and still would have wound up with industrialisation and industrial capitalism

I'm neither reading or understanding what he said as a "it'd only work in where people were protestant, because they were protestant" ... thats somewhat like saying that Communism only worked (given that it did at all) in Russia since there was orthodox people there ...

It was merely a statement that the states in northen europe, who happened to be protestant, was those embracing it

I'm neither reading or understanding what he said as a "it'd only work in where people were protestant, because they were protestant" ... thats somewhat like saying that Communism only worked (given that it did at all) in Russia since there was orthodox people there ...

It was merely a statement that the states in northen europe, who happened to be protestant, was those embracing it

He could have just said Northern Europe like most people...

What we need are ways to make CE - Capitalism more useful and effective in general, not just for America. We should encourage diverse playstyles. Ideally, Russia should be reasonably effective with Capitalism CE too, just as how America should be effective with Egalitarian SE.
That's true.

Very obvious, and yet very effective fixes for Capitalism:

(1) Instead of +2 :commerce: to Towns, it should provide +1 :commerce: to Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages. This will make Cottages worth it. Towns are still better than Villages with Parliamentarism.
Sounds reasonable.

(2) When I hurry buy something, that thing should appear INSTANTLY like with Drafting, not "1 turn after". This will make Capitalism much more effective, when
(2A) Hurrying an army to deal with DOWs. This will allow a Capitalistic civ to truly focus on economy in times of peace.
(2B) Hurrying mass Cultural buildings in conquered cities. This will help Capitalistic civs conquer better. It will not be effective as Egalitarian Artists, but it's a start.
Seriously, the "1 turn after" thing SUCKS GIANT BALLS OF FIRE. I play on Epic and it still annoys me to no end. On Normal it's just intolerable.
Don't know if that's possible, but I'll see.

(3) Hurry cost should be lower for civs with less than monstrous economy (i.e. Trading Company England). I suggest a simple fix of giving a universal -25% Hurry Cost to all civs whose GDP is not world No.1. This will help weaker Capitalistic civs (early America, Netherlands) catch up faster. Additionally, remove or lessen the inherent +100% Hurry Cost for Wonders. Seriously, +50% is bad enough. +100% means I'll just Farm and switch to Engineers.
Good idea.

Other things that need to be fixed are Plague and Great Depression mechanics.

(1) As it is Plague vastly favors SE over CE, because your Cottages take eons longer to recover than the population of a (Farmed and Food-rich) city. This can be changed by allowing Plagues to degrade Cottages only by 1 Level. Currently, a single Plague can reduce a Town back to a Cottage. This is a major reason why CE is useless before Medicine.
I think I can do that by applying the cottage hit only when a city is infected by the plague.

(2) Great Depression needs a complete overhaul. The player should face interesting challenges and choices against a Great Depression, not a flat Stability penalty with no means to combat. As it stands now GDs are simply to be avoided like Plague (pun intended) as there is no way to deal with it.

New GD Mechanics (to replace the stupid flat Stability hit):

(A) Unemployment: -3 Happiness in all cities. 1 Angry Citizen in your 6 Largest cities (counters Parliamentarism).

(B) Policy Disruption: Player's Economic Civic is auto-switched to Self-Sufficiency.

(C) Rampant Inflation: +100% Inflation cost during Great Depression.

(D) Bankruptcies: All your cities loose a random non-Wonder building, similar to the Powerful Hurricane Event. The priority ones are Markets, Banks, Factories, and Industrial Parks. If none of these 4 are present in a city then a random building is lost.

The Rationale is, if your economy is really unbeatable with a gigantic Treasury, you should be able to recover from GD relatively fast:

(A) By turning up the Culture Slider.
(B) Well, no way around this one really.
(C) By using up your Treasury. This is also assuaged by the Federal Reserve Event (have I told you it's my favorite Event?).
(D) By hurry-buying all the buildings you lost.

The overall effect is that your Tech is slowed down for a few turns and your Treasury is emptied. It should only be a real problem if you do nothing or if your economy was poor to begin with.
Interesting choices are always a good idea, and no civ was actually collapsed by Great Depressions so the stability aspect never really made sense to me, but my actual problem with it is how unpredictable and counterintuitive it often is. I often get hit by it even if my economy appears to be in decent shape and balance. Plus, another weakness for Capitalism while Egalitarianism has no equivalent just skews the balance even more (I'm seriously considering to move it to Free Market again, which appears to be the optimal choice in its category at least). I'll keep your suggestions in mind in any case, though.

So CE/Capitalism is to be something exclusive to America?

I am of the opinion that Capitalism was invented in Renaissance Italy, and got really developed and reached its ultimate form in Protestant Europe. America is a late-comer to the party, and not even the best at it IMO.

America IRL also runs a large number of Specialists (Artists, like you; Scientists, like me; Merchants, like Steve Jobs. Seriously we are all Specialists in large cities - we would not exist in this form if America is pure CE) and produced a huge number of GPs. It should be just as effective with Egalitarianism SE.
Sure, RFC has enough food that you'll be running some specialists regardless of CE. And canonically America has at least one specialist from the SoL. But the Middle West notwithstanding, American wealth relies not on farming the countryside, but urban sprawl. And success or not, no country is more associated with capitalism than the US, both in their view on themselves and in their presentation to the outside world.

That doesn't mean I want to shoehorn America into Capitalism, but playing for historical flavor should at least not put them at a noticeable disadvantage.

The current GD means only one thing: AVOID IT. Because the Stability hit is actually sizable and permanent, for the same reason that Golden Ages permanently hurt your Stability.

It is also, IMHO, unforgivably boring.
Can you actually consciously avoid a GD? I've never managed to do that.

So CE/Capitalism is to be something exclusive to America?

I am of the opinion that Capitalism was invented in Renaissance Italy, and got really developed and reached its ultimate form in Protestant Europe. America is a late-comer to the party, and not even the best at it IMO.

America IRL also runs a large number of Specialists (Artists, like you; Scientists, like me; Merchants, like Steve Jobs. Seriously we are all Specialists in large cities - we would not exist in this form if America is pure CE) and produced a huge number of GPs. It should be just as effective with Egalitarianism SE.


The current GD means only one thing: AVOID IT. Because the Stability hit is actually sizable and permanent, for the same reason that Golden Ages permanently hurt your Stability.

It is also, IMHO, unforgivably boring.
If you look at California on the map you can see that even with cottaging it still has more than enough food for running specialists. New York which also produced a lot of GPs has three seafoods so it has spare people (and even if you cottage everything still plenty of food especially with corps).


You appear to have violated
(1) America is to be an agrarian society. Therefore it will build no Cottages. Cottages in captured cities must be replaced with other improvements.
I see a cottage 1SW of NYC, 2S Miami, 1SE1S Yax Mutal
*snip*
Can you actually consciously avoid a GD? I've never managed to do that.

It's really easy actually, don't switch to a civic that can get it.

He could have just said Northern Europe like most people...
I did not invent this. Max Weber did. In fact, I disagree with him and agree with you, in that religions played little role in the development of Capitalism. But the term "Protestant Europe" is still used as such by economists.


That's true.

Interesting choices are always a good idea, and no civ was actually collapsed by Great Depressions so the stability aspect never really made sense to me, but my actual problem with it is how unpredictable and counterintuitive it often is. I often get hit by it even if my economy appears to be in decent shape and balance. Plus, another weakness for Capitalism while Egalitarianism has no equivalent just skews the balance even more (I'm seriously considering to move it to Free Market again, which appears to be the optimal choice in its category at least). I'll keep your suggestions in mind in any case, though.

Definitely move it to FM. FM as a civic boosts your GDP far more than Capitalism.


That doesn't mean I want to shoehorn America into Capitalism, but playing for historical flavor should at least not put them at a noticeable disadvantage.

Good to hear.


Can you actually consciously avoid a GD? I've never managed to do that.

GD is triggered when your Production is large compared to your Commerce/GDP.

You can keep track of it in the Demographics screen, by comparing your Production/Commerce with other civs (rival average, rival best).

To avoid it, you need to do some stupid things, e.g.

(1) Do NOT build Factories in your Production-weak cities. Instead, rely on hurrying for infrastructure there. This will slow down your Tech.

(2) Run pure Merchants. This will slow down your Tech compared to Scientists, but America in particular needs to run pure Merchants with Capitalism.

(3) Switch to FM asap. No other econ Civic can provide enough Commerce.

(4) Build Market-Grocer-Bank instead of Library-University-Observatory in all your cities. This will further slow down your Tech.

(5) Build Wealth, instead of Research, in your best Production cities. This slows down your Tech even further.

If you do all that you can run Capitalism with State Property and/or Assembly Plants and a reasonable number of Watermills, without ever triggering GD (check out my State Capitalist China Cultural Victory). The price, as I have noted, is that you get slower Tech in every conceivable way.

If you do that with America, you run the risk of loosing Pentagon to others, and cannot even hope to build the Radio Wonders. Or you could disregard that, go Production, and go through GDs.

If you look at California on the map you can see that even with cottaging it still has more than enough food for running specialists. New York which also produced a lot of GPs has three seafoods so it has spare people (and even if you cottage everything still plenty of food especially with corps).

I thought everyone knows that. But thanks.


You appear to have violated
(1) America is to be an agrarian society. Therefore it will build no Cottages. Cottages in captured cities must be replaced with other improvements.
I see a cottage 1SW of NYC, 2S Miami, 1SE1S Yax Mutal

Those were never Cottages. They were Hamlets/Villages when I captured those cities. Also, you know very well that replacing them would have made zero difference anyway. But thanks again for being astute.

I thought everyone knows that. But thanks.


Those were never Cottages. They were Hamlets/Villages when I captured those cities. Also, you know very well that replacing them would have made zero difference anyway. But thanks again for being astute.

In RL the US did/is running a cottage economy, but there is enough food to run specialists so that's how we managed to get GP anyway.

Ah, okay, you said "must", but whatever.

GD is triggered when your Production is large compared to your Commerce/GDP.

You can keep track of it in the Demographics screen, by comparing your Production/Commerce with other civs (rival average, rival best).

To avoid it, you need to do some stupid things, e.g.

(1) Do NOT build Factories in your Production-weak cities. Instead, rely on hurrying for infrastructure there. This will slow down your Tech.

(2) Run pure Merchants. This will slow down your Tech compared to Scientists, but America in particular needs to run pure Merchants with Capitalism.

(3) Switch to FM asap. No other econ Civic can provide enough Commerce.

(4) Build Market-Grocer-Bank instead of Library-University-Observatory in all your cities. This will further slow down your Tech.

(5) Build Wealth, instead of Research, in your best Production cities. This slows down your Tech even further.

(6) Skip all the above and run cottage-economy.

I personally have never suffered from Great Depression (directly) and I usually run more cottage orientated economy.

Can you actually consciously avoid a GD? I've never managed to do that.
Like IOnlySignIn said, having a high GNP/Production ratio would help. I don't know if Crop Yield plays a factor, it should be in the code somewhere right?

(6) Skip all the above and run cottage-economy.

Did I mention not to build any Cottages in the above? Do I have to mention that you Cottage with Capitalism? Maybe I should also mention that you build buildings in your cities?

Also, good luck with all the Wonders requirements if you Cottage every plain tile.

And I'm sure the prodigious +1 :commerce: per tile of those Cottages will really help you tech race towards Assembly Line.

I suggest you play a CE America game and find out yourself. See if you'll be able to build all the Wonders and tech past Genetics/Satellites before 1930.

Most of us play on Monarch + Normal though.

Remember that it's still the baseline under which most factors are to be judged.

It's really easy actually, don't switch to a civic that can get it.
Haha, yes, I was aware of that :D

Definitely move it to FM. FM as a civic boosts your GDP far more than Capitalism.
Done in my working copy. By the way, I'm sorry that updates are so rare at the moment, but I'm still in the process of moving stability to the DLL which is a beast due to the complexity of the code. I only want to release it if DLL stability aligns completely with Python stability, and that's still not the case currently (I'm also working on a nice improved stability display).


GD is triggered when your Production is large compared to your Commerce/GDP.

You can keep track of it in the Demographics screen, by comparing your Production/Commerce with other civs (rival average, rival best).

To avoid it, you need to do some stupid things, e.g.

(1) Do NOT build Factories in your Production-weak cities. Instead, rely on hurrying for infrastructure there. This will slow down your Tech.

(2) Run pure Merchants. This will slow down your Tech compared to Scientists, but America in particular needs to run pure Merchants with Capitalism.

(3) Switch to FM asap. No other econ Civic can provide enough Commerce.

(4) Build Market-Grocer-Bank instead of Library-University-Observatory in all your cities. This will further slow down your Tech.

(5) Build Wealth, instead of Research, in your best Production cities. This slows down your Tech even further.

If you do all that you can run Capitalism with State Property and/or Assembly Plants and a reasonable number of Watermills, without ever triggering GD (check out my State Capitalist China Cultural Victory). The price, as I have noted, is that you get slower Tech in every conceivable way.

If you do that with America, you run the risk of loosing Pentagon to others, and cannot even hope to build the Radio Wonders. Or you could disregard that, go Production, and go through GDs.
Yeah, I think it's my tendency to focus science that drives me into depressions then.

Most of us play on Monarch + Normal though.

Remember that it's still the baseline under which most factors are to be judged.

I don't think Cottages grow slower on Emperor than on Monarch. Do they? It's just that Techs/Buildings are more expensive on Emperor. And Plague effects should be consistent across difficulties too. So the issues in this thread should be relevant across all difficulties and speeds.

In fact, on Monarch SE has even more benefits, since you receive an inherent Health/Happiness bonus in your cities compared to Emperor.

I don't think Cottages grow slower on Emperor than on Monarch. Do they? It's just that Techs/Buildings are more expensive on Emperor. And Plague effects should be consistent across difficulties too. So the issues in this thread should be relevant across all difficulties and speeds.

In fact, on Monarch SE has even more benefits, since you receive an inherent Health/Happiness bonus in your cities compared to Emperor.

They grow slower on Epic.

Okay, I've also looked into the plague module (also for the first time in ages) and apparently cottage degradation only applies when the plague enters a city anyway, but affects them even if they're worked by another city, which means they get easily targeted more than once in tightly settled Europe.

That's hard to prevent, so I decided to scrap cottage degradation altogether (except for towns). Instead, the plague only resets the upgrade counter, which imo hurts enough for villages, while it's not that bad for lower levels.

Did I mention not to build any Cottages in the above? Do I have to mention that you Cottage with Capitalism? Maybe I should also mention that you build buildings in your cities?

Also, good luck with all the Wonders requirements if you Cottage every plain tile.

And I'm sure the prodigious +1 :commerce: per tile of those Cottages will really help you tech race towards Assembly Line.

I suggest you play a CE America game and find out yourself. See if you'll be able to build all the Wonders and tech past Genetics/Satellites before 1930.

Quite the aggressor aren't you..?

My point was that with cottage economy you don't have to worry about GDs. So the best way to avoid GDs is to run a cottage economy. I didn't mention anywhere that this is the best way to play as America on Emperor, Epic, DoC 1.8xxx. :lol:

I might just take some time prove you wrong/right just for the fun of it.:D

Never mind.

Haha, yes, I was aware of that :D


Done in my working copy. By the way, I'm sorry that updates are so rare at the moment, but I'm still in the process of moving stability to the DLL which is a beast due to the complexity of the code. I only want to release it if DLL stability aligns completely with Python stability, and that's still not the case currently (I'm also working on a nice improved stability display).


:mischief:


Cool, will this mean a substantial speed boost? (and then of course there is K-mod speed ups...)

The relative speed increase is 1000x, but the algorithm only took 10-20 milliseconds on my laptop per player, so it saves half a second per turn. I think it'll probably only be noticeable during autoplay.

I have a feeling there are some Towns next to Washington and Chicago...