View Full Version : Pantheon, Founder and Follower Beliefs


The_J
Apr 08, 2012, 06:48 PM
This here is just meant as a cut-out from the Sunday's PAX thread, and I want to see some speculations :):

Thanks heaps, Optional!

I fixed a few typos and put in some icons for readability.

Ancestor Worship - +1 :c5culture: Culture from Shrines
Dance of the Aurora - +1 Faith from Tundra tiles without Forest
Desert Folklore - +1 Faith from Desert tiles
Faith Healers - +30 HP healed per turn if adjacent to a friendly city
Fertility Rites - 10% faster :c5food: Growth Rate
God of Craftsmen - +1 :c5production: Production from cities with population of 5+
God of the Open Sky - +1 :c5culture: Culture from Pastures
God of the Sea - +1 :c5production: Production from fishing boats
God of War - Gain Faith if you win a battle within 4 tiles of your city
Goddess of Festivals - +1 :c5culture: Culture & +1 Faith for each Wine and Incense
Goddess of Love - +1 :c5happy: Happiness from cities with population of 6+
Goddess of Protection - +50% increase in city :c5rangedstrength: Ranged Combat Strength
Goddess of the Hunt - +1 :c5food: Food from camps
Messenger of the Gods - +2 :c5science: Science in cities with a :c5trade: Trade Route
Monument to the Gods - +15% :c5production: Production of Ancient / Classical Wonders
One with Nature - +4 Faith from Natural Wonders
Oral Tradition - +1 :c5culture: Culture from Plantations
Religious Settlements - +15% Faster Border Growth
Sacred Path - +1 :c5culture: Culture from Jungle tiles
Sacred Waters - +1 :c5happy: Happiness from cities on rivers
Stone Circles - +2 Faith from Quarries

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318495&d=1333908006


Here are the founder beliefs

Church Property: +2 Gold for each city following this Religion
Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each city first converts to this Religion
Interfaith Dialougue: Gain Science when a missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
Papal Primacy + 15 to Influence making (?) points with City States following this religion
Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this Religion in non-enemy cities
Pilgrmage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this Religion
Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this Religion
World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this Religion in other civilizations

Confident in everything but Papal Primacy (which is definitely wrong)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318497&d=1333908267

You left out the Follower Beliefs.

Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +5 Culture in city
Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Swords into Plowshares: 15?% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/follower_beliefs.jpg



Opinions :)?

seasnake
Apr 08, 2012, 06:55 PM
Some of them seem stronger than others, but possibly that's because certain ones appeal to how I play the game more than others.

ehecatzin
Apr 08, 2012, 07:00 PM
I think that the pantheon beliefs that benefit from terrain are great, perhaps now spawning in the middle of the desert, tundra or jungle wont be so bad.

Im hoping the Mayans get some sort of jungle bonus or UI, that, along with sacred path seems like fun.

Pouakai
Apr 08, 2012, 07:01 PM
Messenger of the Gods would be huge with Arabia if they're unchanged

FeiLing
Apr 08, 2012, 07:05 PM
Goddess of Protection -
+50% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength
This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

awesome
Apr 08, 2012, 07:07 PM
kind of unrelated, but it is speculation. the faith healers or whatever made me think about how jaguars are going to need more than 2 hp healed. maybe they'll change it to 20. anything on this?

GenjiKhan
Apr 08, 2012, 07:08 PM
This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

To balance this it's quite simple . Just don't allow stacking this bonus and Oligarchy bonus . If still's overpowered,just limit to few cities .

Optional
Apr 08, 2012, 07:16 PM
Also don't forget if you adopt a belief it blocks it for all others.

I'm not too afraid 100% increased ranged strength +50% with this belief for cities will make them impenetrable fortresses. Your units will have 100 HP now, so that should more than balance this out... in theory.

Glassmage
Apr 08, 2012, 07:21 PM
That could be possible. They don't allow japan UA and Autocracy's Populism bonus to stack.

ehecatzin
Apr 08, 2012, 07:23 PM
Going against a heavily stacked Ethiopia with Goddess of Protection or Faith healers will be really challenging.

Im really liking the possibilities the beliefs will bring to the table for stacking UA bonuses, balancing out or just taking advantage of the terrain.

Like for example, Spain with One with nature, Egypt with Monuments to the Gods, etc.

PhilBowles
Apr 08, 2012, 07:30 PM
Some of them seem stronger than others, but possibly that's because certain ones appeal to how I play the game more than others.

No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources. At least they've balanced the plantation bonus against the fact that you're more likely to have lots of plantations than anything else, since the largest number of luxury resources can be generated from those.

On the other hand, faith may be more valuable than it seems at first - getting a Mausoleum of Helicarnassus bonus whenever you spread sufficient faith to another city is not to be sniffed at.

awesome
Apr 08, 2012, 07:36 PM
religious settlements would work great with russia's krepost

Optional
Apr 08, 2012, 07:53 PM
No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources.I see a few here as well that will be favourites all the time, certainly Fertility Rites being among them, but at least there's a bunch, and you won't be completely free to pick. Probably on an average difficulty level you'll be able to pick the first ones, and then after that you get what's left.
Maybe, if you're late, you have to adopt a religion that another civ has already picked before you can gain access to certain beliefs. We're not sure yet how this exactly will work out.

It won't be as unbalanced as the current Social Policies, where players pick the same policies over and over again.

MadDjinn
Apr 08, 2012, 08:22 PM
To balance this it's quite simple . Just don't allow stacking this bonus and Oligarchy bonus . If still's overpowered,just limit to few cities .

This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

Also don't forget if you adopt a belief it blocks it for all others.

I'm not too afraid 100% increased ranged strength +50% with this belief for cities will make them impenetrable fortresses. Your units will have 100 HP now, so that should more than balance this out... in theory.

Hmm, even in vanilla there's these things called 'promotions', and they happen to include things like 'cover' - which gives better defence vs. ranged attacks. Maybe someone might want you to use those more often (rather than ignoring them - which we all basically do).

No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources. At least they've balanced the plantation bonus against the fact that you're more likely to have lots of plantations than anything else, since the largest number of luxury resources can be generated from those.

On the other hand, faith may be more valuable than it seems at first - getting a Mausoleum of Helicarnassus bonus whenever you spread sufficient faith to another city is not to be sniffed at.

keep in mind this is a demo, and not final product. Plus, hey, what would Civ be without balance issues when something is released? :mischief:

The point of the terrain bonuses seems to be that you are far more likely to worship some 'natural' thing near you, rather than something that's not - Ie, actually historical.

oh, and +2 beakers/trade route is pretty minimal across a medium sized empire, compared to, say, a library in one tall city.


edit:

Random other aside:

Does anyone remember if the demo civ happened to be the 'first' to found a religion? If not, then there may be other beliefs missing - since only one religion can have a belief at a time.

Louis XXIV
Apr 08, 2012, 08:39 PM
Austria had a religion.

PhilBowles
Apr 08, 2012, 08:52 PM
Hmm, even in vanilla there's these things called 'promotions', and they happen to include things like 'cover' - which gives better defence vs. ranged attacks. Maybe someone might want you to use those more often (rather than ignoring them - which we all basically do).



keep in mind this is a demo, and not final product. Plus, hey, what would Civ be without balance issues when something is released? :mischief:

It's due for release in two months. The Goddess of the Hunt ability has remained the same since the expansion was first previewed, and that looks to be one of the more problematic.

The point of the terrain bonuses seems to be that you are far more likely to worship some 'natural' thing near you, rather than something that's not - Ie, actually historical.

Historically, it didn't make any practical difference to a civilisation's development whether they worshipped the hill next door or the forest two valleys over. The G&K development I'm least enthusiastic about is the bonuses granted for religion - it was strange enough that the Temple of Artemis gives bonuses based on that goddess's specialties rather than conceptually related to the building itself, without having a whole pantheon (literally) of gods taking an active role in their civilizations' affairs. Combined with the deliberate "not everyone can found a religion" mechanic, it seems designed to exacerbate the core problem with religion in Civ IV - the exclusivity problem which gives the civs that happen upon it first the edge. And as mentioned it adds a whole new area to balance the game around when it arguably still needs balancing around its existing policy trees.

oh, and +2 beakers/trade route is pretty minimal across a medium sized empire, compared to, say, a library in one tall city.

A library in a tall city has a maintenance cost. Even a single jungle tile that you keep around for the same 2 science bonus needs to be worked and prevents you from developing it into something more productive. I think that would be less a go-to pantheon member if there was a significant trade-off with anything else, but you can have I think five pantheon members? There's not enough in this list to make the choices that difficult or varied.

Glassmage
Apr 08, 2012, 09:11 PM
huh? I'm pretty sure everyone can pick the same Pantheon beliefs. Only the Founder and Follower Beliefs are limited.

MadDjinn
Apr 08, 2012, 09:39 PM
A library in a tall city has a maintenance cost. Even a single jungle tile that you keep around for the same 2 science bonus needs to be worked and prevents you from developing it into something more productive. I think that would be less a go-to pantheon member if there was a significant trade-off with anything else, but you can have I think five pantheon members? There's not enough in this list to make the choices that difficult or varied.

there is nothing more productive than a TP in a jungle tile (for a jungle type tile).

anyone can get a pantheon, but only a few get religions.

AriochIV
Apr 09, 2012, 02:03 AM
You left out the Follower Beliefs.

Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +5 Culture in city
Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Swords into Plowshares: 15?% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/follower_beliefs.jpg

albie_123
Apr 09, 2012, 02:07 AM
Huh. Odd that they made the mosque / cathedral split.

Inhalaattori
Apr 09, 2012, 02:30 AM
Goddess of Protection -
+50% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength

I think its +30%

theadder
Apr 09, 2012, 03:59 AM
Huh. Odd that they made the mosque / cathedral split.

Yes. I thought that was a bit strange; but then much of the structure of religion in the game is driven by a desire not to favour one religion over another. Picking cathedrals suggests a focus on Christianity over other religions and so it makes sense to include other prominent types of religious structures.

It also allows for a bit more variety in terms of the bonuses that can be applied to the buildings, since they can be differentiated.

anandus
Apr 09, 2012, 04:08 AM
I must say I really like the diversity of different beliefs.
I think it gives for very nice gameplay :)

apocalypse105
Apr 09, 2012, 05:43 AM
Monument to the Gods -

+15% Production of Ancient / Classical Wonders

I can bet this one is going to be nerved just like they nerved tradition

Optional
Apr 09, 2012, 05:57 AM
huh? I'm pretty sure everyone can pick the same Pantheon beliefs. Only the Founder and Follower Beliefs are limited.I'm just going by the Computer Bild Spiele interview with Deniis Shirk: CBS: What's this faith for?
DS: With that at some point in the game the player receives a great prophet, who calls out a religion. This grants access to two more beliefs, which will become very strong.
The 30 pantheon beliefs are quite good, but the 20 world religion beliefs are in comparison stronger. Those 5 that the player develops, are obtained by him alone. Every belief can be picked only once and that blocks it for all others.Something can of course have gotten mixed up. Have you got a source that says different?

elprofesor
Apr 09, 2012, 06:29 AM
Desert Folklore and Dance of the Aurora are either nice or very bad, depending on whether you need to work those tiles to get the extra faith...

anandus
Apr 09, 2012, 06:30 AM
Desert Folklore and Dance of the Aurora are either nice or very bad, depending on whether you need to work those tiles to get the extra faith...Interesting question.
I suppose the tile needs to be worked?

Optional
Apr 09, 2012, 06:34 AM
I'm pretty certain the tile needs to be worked...

I have a question; did anyone pick up any more info about these 'shrines'? Is this a culture (well, not culture, but faith instead) building like the monument, that you can build from the start of the game?

theadder
Apr 09, 2012, 06:35 AM
Interesting question.
I suppose the tile needs to be worked?

I had wondered about that; my first thought is that it must need to be worked. But then I can't see how that is ever going to work.

Perhaps a larger general yield for those tiles now? That seems unlikely also.

On that basis it seems pretty worthless.

Optional
Apr 09, 2012, 06:39 AM
It can be okay with tiles like a desert hill on a river, or a desert hill with sheep, a tundra tile with deer... Not bland desert or bland tundra tiles, you're right.

theadder
Apr 09, 2012, 06:43 AM
It can be okay with tiles like a desert hill on a river, or a desert hill with sheep, a tundra tile with deer... Not bland desert or bland tundra tiles, you're right.

It occurred to me after I posted that flood plains are also marked desert and so it applies there also. Flood plains may be even better tiles now.

That probably makes the desert option better than the tundra one, given the choice of starting location at least.

Optional
Apr 09, 2012, 06:46 AM
Tundra is a much better place to start than most players think anyway. The deer add to your production, that is what you don't have in the desert.
I rather have deer than oasis.

anandus
Apr 09, 2012, 06:57 AM
I have a question; did anyone pick up any more info about these 'shrines'? Is this a culture (well, not culture, but faith instead) building like the monument, that you can build from the start of the game?I believe so. I haven't seen shrines being mentioned in the lists of beliefs, so I reckon it's a buildable building akin to monuments.

Also monasteries are out as buildable buildings as it's a follower's belief building.

Louis XXIV
Apr 09, 2012, 07:48 AM
There has to be more than 8 founder beliefs. There are 11 religions and Byzantium gets one for itself. My guess is that there should be 12 beliefs.

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 08:10 AM
Louis, you can't found more religions than half the number of full fledged civs in the game so 8 founders beliefs is self sufficient on huge maps with 12 civs.

Montov
Apr 09, 2012, 08:57 AM
But with 22 civs (the maximum allowed in 1 game), you need 11 religions.

Louis XXIV
Apr 09, 2012, 09:07 AM
Yeah, but do they take away beliefs and just remove those from the game? If so, that adds even more randomness (not just other civs beating you to it).

DutchJob
Apr 09, 2012, 09:17 AM
I'll go for Fertility Rites and Oral Tradition.

Very important IMHO.

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 09:31 AM
But with 22 civs (the maximum allowed in 1 game), you need 11 religions.

Not necessarily. You can stick being a follower of 1 out of the 9 rels, you'll only miss the founder benefit !

Camikaze
Apr 09, 2012, 09:42 AM
Not all of the beliefs would've been in the screenshots, because it looked like Christianity had already been taken (and so a set of beliefs with it). Revealed later to have been taken by Ethiopia.

[...]

Awesome. Added them to the OP. :)

Arkangelus
Apr 09, 2012, 09:47 AM
So... if an AI civ has Papal Primacy as its founding belief, then there is no downside at all to adopting it in all your cities - you get all the follower beliefs, without giving said AI any bonus for it.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 09, 2012, 10:04 AM
I notice that Liturgical Drama has Amphitheatres providing Faith. Is this a new building?

SammyKhalifa
Apr 09, 2012, 10:08 AM
I like that a lot of them are terrain-dependent. This is a good step towards having civs that develop organically instead of with pre-set UAs and UBs

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 10:09 AM
@ EP : yes, it seems so !

Pazyryk
Apr 09, 2012, 10:31 AM
I may have missed it, but has there been any confirmation or refutation that there is a Holy City for each religion? It would make sense as a place to apply many of the founder effects (but if so, what to do if the city changes ownership? Make new owner the founder?). However, there are other ways to do this and they just might (for the purpose of being different than Civ4) forgo Holy Cities entirely.

The_J
Apr 09, 2012, 10:35 AM
In one of the interviews Dennis Shirk definitely mentioned Holy Cities.

You left out the Follower Beliefs.


:blush: shame on me, the confusion.
And thank you :).

(and thanks to Cam for already fixing it :)).

MadDjinn
Apr 09, 2012, 10:43 AM
I notice that Liturgical Drama has Amphitheatres providing Faith. Is this a new building?

yes.

It looks like Shrines and Temples are the faith buildings and the Monument + Amphitheatre are the culture buildings, with Monastaries being purchasable only if you take that belief (along with the other new building beliefs).

at least for the early game buildings anyways.

MadDjinn
Apr 09, 2012, 10:47 AM
Louis, you can't found more religions than half the number of full fledged civs in the game so 8 founders beliefs is self sufficient on huge maps with 12 civs.

There has to be more than 8 founder beliefs. There are 11 religions and Byzantium gets one for itself. My guess is that there should be 12 beliefs.

But with 22 civs (the maximum allowed in 1 game), you need 11 religions.

the evidence for 11 founder beliefs (and the required amount of 22 follower beliefs/11 enhancer beliefs) is that there is the max of 22 civs in a game plus, rather self-evidently, there are 11 possible religious symbols.

Yes, unless you're playing with 22 civs, you won't see that many religions, but developers aren't building the game for low possibilities, they have to build it for maximal possibilities.

The_J
Apr 09, 2012, 10:50 AM
I'd just say that we have not yet seen all. Quite possible, isn't it?

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 10:52 AM
Since cities will be able to practice multiple religions, Islamic-Christian cities will be able to "construct" both Cathedral and Mosque respectively or not. Also, religion allegiance seems to be counted on a citizen basis which, then, indicates that missionaries will convert only two citizens each.

Louis XXIV
Apr 09, 2012, 10:57 AM
I don't think cities can have more than one religion. That's why you need Inquisitors so you can keep "heathen" religions out.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 09, 2012, 11:02 AM
It appears that a city breaks down into "followers" where multiple religions can have followers in a city. I would guess that the religion with the most followers in the city is the city's dominant religion.

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 11:03 AM
@Louis : They (the developers) said the contrary at PAX.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 09, 2012, 11:04 AM
hmm. Then what do the follower beliefs mean when they refer to numbers of followers?

Camikaze
Apr 09, 2012, 11:04 AM
They (the developers) said the contrary at PAX.

I don't recall this. What did they say exactly?

Edit: Ah, thought you were replying to Eagle Pursuit.

seasnake
Apr 09, 2012, 11:05 AM
It apppears a number of your citizens will follow the different religions, and inquisitors are used to reduce the number of people following a rival religion while missionaries increase the number of people. The more followers you have the better your bonuses.

Deggial
Apr 09, 2012, 11:09 AM
There seems to be some "hidden fight" between religions to convince enough citizen as "believers" (or is it "followers"?).

As I see it:
- Cities with adopted religion cast their religious influence 10 hexes afar.
- If there are cities with "unconvinced" population, these pagans are convinced slowly over time.
- If there is a certain threshold taken, the whole city will adopt the religion of the mayority of their citizen.
- There can be only one adopted religion per city, but different believers in every city.
- Misionarys can change the ammount of belivers towards their religion.
- Inquisitors might "clear" a cities adopted religion or just lower the number of "wrong" believers in a city.
- *Maybe* (!) a city can "flip" their adopted religion, if religious pressure is high and new inhabitants are convinced to the "wrong" religion.

--

Edit: And I was *way* to slow...

Huaojozu
Apr 09, 2012, 11:35 AM
Awesome, the only thing I wanted out of this religion system will be a possibility.

Egypt with
Pantheon - Monument of the Gods
Founder - Pilgrimage
Follower - Divine Inspiration
Follower 2 - Holy Warriors

Focus on wonders, buy army if (when) things get dicey.

Louis XXIV
Apr 09, 2012, 11:42 AM
Do you get one follower belief or two?

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 11:53 AM
The second come with a subsequent prophet but they are in the same pool !

AriochIV
Apr 09, 2012, 12:03 PM
According to Sunday's video, a religion converts a city one population point at a time, so I can easily see that a city might have more than one religion affecting it. If so, I would assume that whichever religion has the most followers in a city gets the icon on the city bar and eligibility for certain bonuses.

There has to be more than 8 founder beliefs. There are 11 religions and Byzantium gets one for itself. My guess is that there should be 12 beliefs.
There are 13 that I know of. The lists seen in the video don't appear to be exhaustive lists of Beliefs, as they don't include a number of beliefs already mentioned in previews or seen in the first screenshots. It's possible that these earlier beliefs may have been since removed, but it seems more likely that some just weren't available (perhaps they had already been chosen by other religions), or perhaps the demo didn't include everything.

This is my current total list of all the beliefs that have been mentioned:

Known Pantheon Beliefs:
Ancestor Worship: +1 Culture for every Shrine in your civilization
Dance of the Aurora: +1 Faith from Tundra tiles without Forest
Desert Folklore: +1 Faith from Desert tiles
Faith Healers: +33 HP healed per turn if adjacent to a friendly city
Fertility Rites: 10% faster Growth Rate
God of Craftsmen: +1 Production in cities with population of (3 or 5?)+
God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture from Pastures
God of the Sea: +1 Production from Fishing Boats
God of War: Gain Faith if you win a battle within 4 tiles if your city
Goddess of Festivals: +1 Culture and +1 Faith for each Wine and Incense
Goddess of Love: +1 Happiness from cities with population of 6+
Goddess of Protection: +(30 or 50?)% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength
Goddess of the Hunt: +1 Food from Hunting Camps
Messenger of the Gods: +2 Science in cities with a Trade Route
Monument to the Gods: +15% Production of Ancient/Classical Wonders
One with Nature: +2 Faith from Natural Wonders
Oral Tradition: +1 Culture from Plantations
Religious Idols: +1 Culture and +1 Faith for each Gold and Silver
Religious Settlements: +15% faster border growth
Sacred Path: +1 Culture from Jungle tiles
Sacred Waters: +1 Happiness from cities on rivers
Stone Circles: +2 Faith from Quarries

Known Founder Beliefs:
Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
Defender of the Faith: +20% Combat near friendly Cities that follow this Religion
Flourishing of the Arts: +10% Culture if not at war
Holy Order: Allows the purchase of Missionaries to help spread your Religion
Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
Just War: +20% Combat near enemy Cities that follow this Religion
Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence ???ing point with City-States following this religion
Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5? followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

Known Follower Beliefs:
Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +5 Culture in city
Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Swords into Plowshares: 15% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

Deggial
Apr 09, 2012, 12:12 PM
...whichever religion has the most followers in a city gets the icon on the city bar and eligibility for certain bonuses.

It's a little bit nitpicking, but I don't think it is just "the most".

If this would be true, a - say - 10 population city with 2 followers of religion A and 1 follower of religion B would instantly concert to religion A.
That's why I proposed a threshold (maybe >= 50% of citizen) that must be taken to convert a city from pagan believe to a full religion's believe.

chazzycat
Apr 09, 2012, 12:31 PM
I wonder if there will be any buildings that boost faith by a percentage multiplier. There seem to be a lot of ways to get small +1 bonuses...but no reason to consolidate them into one city (i.e. have a specialized faith city.)

Another thought...I'm somewhat underwhelmed by cathedrals. Was hoping for more of an impact to culture and/or happiness, to be honest. The specialist slot is nice though.

MadDjinn
Apr 09, 2012, 01:06 PM
Another thought...I'm somewhat underwhelmed by cathedrals. Was hoping for more of an impact to culture and/or happiness, to be honest. The specialist slot is nice though.

It seems to be a balance thing. The Cathedral has far more culture than the Mosque, but the Mosque has more faith.

chazzycat
Apr 09, 2012, 01:22 PM
that makes sense...I guess I'm underwhelmed by mosques as well. Compared to how powerful the combined building was in Civ 4 with the huge culture multipliers...I was expecting more than 2 or 3 points. It's also weird that they provide faith while also costing faith to build.

spicytimothy
Apr 09, 2012, 02:04 PM
I LOVE the variety. I was worried that they might withhold and add them as a DLC later :-p

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 02:09 PM
Pagoda & Synagogue will come as DLC, you can be reassured about that !

Babri
Apr 09, 2012, 02:49 PM
that makes sense...I guess I'm underwhelmed by mosques as well. Compared to how powerful the combined building was in Civ 4 with the huge culture multipliers...I was expecting more than 2 or 3 points. It's also weird that they provide faith while also costing faith to build.
Thats just like building a factory, u spend production to enhance future production.

chazzycat
Apr 09, 2012, 02:53 PM
Carthage + god of the seas + commerce tree = insane production in seafood cities

Louis XXIV
Apr 09, 2012, 03:02 PM
Yeah, I would probably pick those policies in that case.

anandus
Apr 09, 2012, 03:16 PM
Yeah, it's synergy a-go-go with all these beliefs! :)

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 03:50 PM
I bet the commerce finisher is a GM with faith on top of the actual effect.

theis81
Apr 09, 2012, 04:18 PM
Known Founder Beliefs:
Holy Order: Allows the purchase of Missionaries to help spread your Religion
Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions


I don't get how a founder belief (holy order) is allowing to buy missionaries. It doesn't make sence that only one religion can spread with missionaries. Even more weird is it that another founder belief (Interfaith Dialogue) gives a bonus when spending a missionary if you need to pick holy order to buy them.

Are we sure that you need to get holy order to buy missionaries?

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 09, 2012, 04:20 PM
I think that means buy with Faith. I think you can still buy/build them with gold without Holy Order.

theis81
Apr 09, 2012, 04:22 PM
I think that means buy with Faith. I think you can still buy/build them with gold without Holy Order.

Okay that makes sense.

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 09, 2012, 04:55 PM
No, it says purchase which means using gold. missionaries are always available with faith (requires at least 1 follower).

elprofesor
Apr 09, 2012, 05:10 PM
Tundra is a much better place to start than most players think anyway. The deer add to your production, that is what you don't have in the desert.
I rather have deer than oasis.

But from the point of view of this belief, deers don't benefit from extra faith, since they are always on forest. The only decent tundra tile is a hill tundra tile, while oasis and flood plains are good desert tiles too...

So maybe desert foklore is good enough, but the aurora one still isn't.

Optional
Apr 09, 2012, 05:16 PM
But from the point of view of this belief, deers don't benefit from extra faith, since they are always on forest.They're not always on forest. Outside of tundra they are on forest only, but you see them a lot on open tundra tiles.
Of course a river-desert is better than a river-tundra, so in a way it's still a nice boost for desert. I'm almost hoping they'll get rid of those silly desert-wheats now, who form a real insult to my common sense, but that'll probably not happen.
EDIT: Since one of our starts in a Succession Game was on tundra, I can provide you a pic:http://s408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/Hynsterider/Siam5.jpg

elprofesor
Apr 09, 2012, 05:48 PM
I stand corrected then. So it seems that the extra faith comes from working the hexes, since that gives a bonus comparable to the other beliefs, given a sufficiently friendly start on desert/tundra.

D712
Apr 09, 2012, 09:12 PM
Does anyone know how many are the max beliefs a civ can have if they have founded a religion?

Camikaze
Apr 09, 2012, 09:20 PM
5, or 6 if you're the Byzantines.

D712
Apr 09, 2012, 09:33 PM
5, or 6 if you're the Byzantines.

How many of each?

GenjiKhan
Apr 09, 2012, 09:49 PM
How many of each?

2 Founder beliefs,2 Followers beliefs and 1 enhancer belief . If Byzantine,it's allowed to get a bonus belief .

Glassmage
Apr 09, 2012, 09:57 PM
I think you mean 1 Pantheon belief, 1 Founder, 2 Followers, and 1 Enhancer.

Liex
Apr 09, 2012, 11:26 PM
Guys, sorry if the answer is right out there, but I'm not dealing well with such amount of info and have some questions:

-The Founder Belief is chosen by the Religion's founder, and it only benefits him. Now about the Followers Beliefs, are they individual for each Civ that follows (including the founder) a certain religion or every Civ that follows that religion shares the same followers beliefs that one/two of them eventually chosen? And what about the Enhancer Belief, is it shared among every Civ that follows that religion?

-Religions spread within 10 tiles. Let's say I settled a new city, equidistant of an Islamic and a Christian cities, and within their area of religious influence. What religion will my city adopt?

-Let's say you're playing in a multiplayer map where players are pretty much isolated from each other. You manage to found a Religion, some of the other civs didn't (naturally). Wouldn't you fell tempted to let the other civs in their paganism so they don't get any follower's bonus and other religions benefits or the Founder Belief's bonus always offsets this temptation?

AriochIV
Apr 09, 2012, 11:50 PM
The first thing to grasp is that population units within a city convert individually to a religion. So you might have a city of size 10, but only 3 may follow a particular religion. Also, all of a religion's Beliefs are chosen by the founder, even if they may affect followers of the religion.

The Founder Belief is chosen by the Religion's founder, and it only benefits him. Now about the Followers Beliefs, are they individual for each Civ that follows (including the founder) a certain religion or every Civ that follows that religion shares the same followers beliefs that one/two of them eventually chosen? And what about the Enhancer Belief, is it shared among every Civ that follows that religion?
Each of the Follower Beliefs are very specific about whether they will affect your city. For example, Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers. That means any city with 3 population units that have converted to that religion will get +1 Happiness for a Shrine.

Religions spread within 10 tiles. Let's say I settled a new city, equidistant of an Islamic and a Christian cities, and within their area of religious influence. What religion will my city adopt?
It's not clear exactly how this works, but it seems that cities with 10 tiles will gradually convert population of nearby cities to their religion, 1 pop at a time. I think someone said over the PAX weekend that invidudal cities can have more than one religion (different population points follow different religions), and if this is true, then a new city might be 50/50 split between two different religions from nearby cities.

Let's say you're playing in a multiplayer map where players are pretty much isolated from each other. You manage to found a Religion, some of the other civs didn't (naturally). Wouldn't you fell tempted to let the other civs in their paganism so they don't get any follower's bonus and other religions benefits or the Founder Belief's bonus always offsets this temptation?
Kind of hard to answer this without knowing more of the details about how thing work, but I don't think you have the option to prevent your religion from spreading if you're within 10 hexes of a foreign city.

wobuffet
Apr 09, 2012, 11:57 PM
-The Founder Belief is chosen by the Religion's founder, and it only benefits him. Now about the Followers Beliefs, are they individual for each Civ that follows (including the founder) a certain religion or every Civ that follows that religion shares the same followers beliefs that one/two of them eventually chosen? And what about the Enhancer Belief, is it shared among every Civ that follows that religion?
All of a religion's beliefs are chosen by the religion's founder. The Pantheon belief is the only one that each Civ gets to pick for itself.

-Religions spread within 10 tiles. Let's say I settled a new city, equidistant of an Islamic and a Christian cities, and within their area of religious influence. What religion will my city adopt?
Presumably both will gain traction in that City, but the one generating more Faith will convert more. Things like missionaries will also affect this balance.

Let's say you're playing in a multiplayer map where players are pretty much isolated from each other. You manage to found a Religion, some of the other civs didn't (naturally). Wouldn't you fell tempted to let the other civs in their paganism so they don't get any follower's bonus and other religions benefits or the Founder Belief's bonus always offsets this temptation?
With any luck, the right choice to this question changes from game to game, depending on circumstances and what you're pursuing that game. I would suspect that spreading to gain your Founder Belief's benefits is typically better though.


Each of the Follower Beliefs are very specific about whether they will affect your city. For example, Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers. That means any city with 3 population units that have converted to that religion will get +1 Happiness for a Shrine.
Most of them aren't so specific, though. The default requirement to gain Follower Belief benefits may well be 50% / a majority. I don't see any Cities benefiting from more than one Follower Belief.

...I don't think you have the option to prevent your religion from spreading if you're within 10 hexes of a foreign city.
This is probably right.

bhavv
Apr 10, 2012, 12:52 AM
I really like the sound of all this stuff, I can't wait for the expansion.

The hunt one seems really crap though, camp resources arent very common as opposed to the +1 production per sea resource which is going to be awesome for Elizabeth.

Deggial
Apr 10, 2012, 01:00 AM
The hunt one seems really crap though, camp resources aren't very common as opposed to the +1 production per sea resource which is going to be awesome for Elizabeth.

Probably for this reason, they introduced new bonus resources: the boars (if they are not tamed pigs, but I don't think so) need a camp, too.

bhavv
Apr 10, 2012, 01:07 AM
Ah, so hopefully boars / pigs will spawn on grassland tiles?

Currently we have deer, furs and ivory, which are tundra / plains only. They also aren't as common as cattle and horses.

Liex
Apr 10, 2012, 01:18 AM
I got it, thank you for the responses!

All of a religion's beliefs are chosen by the religion's founder. The Pantheon belief is the only one that each Civ gets to pick for itself.

This is particularly interesting. At first it sounded strange (if you don't have choices and have little to no control over the mechanism, where is the fun?), but this also means that you do not have to focus on Religion every game, you just need to be a smart follower and make the most out of what you got. It's a nice challenge, to say the least.

AriochIV
Apr 10, 2012, 01:34 AM
I think every civ gets to create a Pantheon, but only half will get to create Religion... but if you end up following someone else's religion, I don't think you get to keep your original Pantheon belief. The Pantheon beliefs get rolled into the Religion, so it seems to me if you switch religions, you're switching everything.

anandus
Apr 10, 2012, 01:34 AM
It's not clear exactly how this works, but it seems that cities with 10 tiles will gradually convert population of nearby cities to their religion, 1 pop at a time. I think someone said over the PAX weekend that invidudal cities can have more than one religion (different population points follow different religions), and if this is true, then a new city might be 50/50 split between two different religions from nearby cities.Yeah, you can have multiple religions.

Also, concerning conversion, a city has a certain amount of religious 'pressure', so I reckon if there are two cities with different religions within the 10-tile radius, the one with the highest religious pressure will convert the population faster.
Also it doesn't matter if a city is 3 tiles or 9 tiles away, the pressure is the same amount.

Edit:
Pic of mouse-over where you can see the different religions in a city, the amount of followers each and the pressure (+25)
http://tweakers.net/ext/f/qoOf3luIPhlPBXYBhTFNlb6W/full.jpg

AriochIV
Apr 10, 2012, 01:50 AM
It will be intesting to find out how "Pressure" is calculated. And it might be true that Pressure doesn't diminish with distance, but I'm not sure we know enough right now to say that for certain.

anandus
Apr 10, 2012, 01:56 AM
It will be intesting to find out how "Pressure" is calculated. And it might be true that Pressure doesn't diminish with distance, but I'm not sure we know enough right now to say that for certain.I'm fairly certain I read or heard thatthe distance doesn't matter and the conversion is calculated equally along all the tiles in the 10-tile radius.

GenjiKhan
Apr 10, 2012, 06:13 AM
So,anyone wants to guess what would the civs which won't be allowed to found religions? I guess two of them are Babylon and Korea,because of their crazy science bonus .

Glassmage
Apr 10, 2012, 03:42 PM
Uh no every civ have the potential to create a religion.

Lord Olleus
Apr 10, 2012, 03:59 PM
1 Pantheon (each civ gets this) + 2 founder (if you found a religion) + 2 follower (if you have pop/city following a certain religion - domestic or foreign) + 1 if you are Byzantium

theis81
Apr 10, 2012, 04:32 PM
1 Pantheon (each civ gets this) + 2 founder (if you found a religion) + 2 follower (if you have pop/city following a certain religion - domestic or foreign) + 1 if you are Byzantium

Thats wrong it is:

After 6 faith: 1 Pantheon

First GP: 1 founder (bonus to the founder only) + 1 follower (bonus to everyone following the religion)

Second GP: 1 extra follower + 1 enhancer (I don't know who gets the bonus and what kind of bonus it is, anyone?) + 1 if you are Byzantium

chazzycat
Apr 10, 2012, 05:30 PM
re: goddes of the hunt, elephants tend to cluster together, it could be useful in one of those ivory starts. otherwise they don't have enough food to work them until you get farms up...you'd get the gold much earlier with 2F on that tile.

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 10, 2012, 07:16 PM
Can you read the word forest ? elephants don't appear on forest

chazzycat
Apr 10, 2012, 07:23 PM
I thought it was just +1 food in camps. Was it later updated to only forest camps?

chazzycat
Apr 10, 2012, 08:02 PM
anyways there look to be some kind of obvious synergies, some i've noticed so far:

Dance of the Aurora (faith from deserts) - curious whether this includes flood plains. If it does, it could be quite useful. Especially for the Arabs or other desert start bias civs.

Fertility Rights (faster growth) - perfect for India, would also be nice for Aztecs to get some crazy growth.

God of Open Sky (culture from pastures) Great for huns and Russia. Perfect for the huns actually, they should get pastures up SUPER fast with their UA.

God of the sea (more production from fishing boats)- seems kinda OP actually. Anyone with decent amount of coastal cities will want this, but Carthage has the best synergy with free harbors. Other civs like England and the Dutch who are incentivized to take commerce policies would want it too.

Messenger of the Gods (+2 science in trade route cities) - good for expansive civs. Inca comes to mind especially because they get trade routes up fastest.

One with Nature (faith from natural wonders) - Spain. Duh.

Monument to the Gods (faster wonders) another duh...Egypt

The founder/follower beliefs seem more universal and would depend on your strategy more than your civ. The only one that leaps out at me is Papal Primacy - Siam would definitely want that.

Aussie_Lurker
Apr 12, 2012, 08:44 AM
Just a quick thought. If you have a Cathedral & Mosque Building Follower Belief, then I wonder if there will also be, say, a Synagogue, Pagoda & maybe Torii building belief?

vcutag
Apr 12, 2012, 09:19 AM
Another completely random thought: All of the talk about religions having influence over a 10-tile radius got me wondering if there's going to be an option in the "tactical" map to have an overlay for religion, much like there was in Civ IV. I can see where that would be handy.

Me,myself,and,I
Apr 12, 2012, 09:46 AM
Is it just me, or do monasteries seem underpowered when compared to mosques/cathedrals?

MadDjinn
Apr 12, 2012, 09:50 AM
Is it just me, or do monasteries seem underpowered when compared to mosques/cathedrals?

maybe, but that's not really a problem.

they give a flat bonus and then a bonus for wine/incense when worked. Top that off with the pantheon belief that also gives a bonus for wine/incense and it's looking pretty good if there's lots of it around.

I'd just consider monasteries one of the 'special case' beliefs, not to be taken unless you can get a lot out of it by having plenty of wine/incense around.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 12, 2012, 09:51 AM
Agreed. It's situational for sure.

Montov
Apr 12, 2012, 11:48 AM
I'm wondering if it would be a good strategy to choose a crappy follower belief, so other civs don't get good bonuses...

CYZ
Apr 12, 2012, 11:54 AM
I'm wondering if it would be a good strategy to choose a crappy follower belief, so other civs don't get good bonuses...

Well, if the AI understands what's good and what's bad or them then you won't be able to do that. You can ofcourse pick a belief a belief that is only usefull for you, so if the AI gets your religion it won't do them any good. However, that does mean your religion is unlikely to spread and that might have negative effects for you as well.

GenjiKhan
Apr 12, 2012, 12:00 PM
I'm wondering if it would be a good strategy to choose a crappy follower belief, so other civs don't get good bonuses...

If you choose bad follower's beliefs,others civilizations will surely reject your religion and the bonus that the Founder's Belief gives are limited to your cities and nearby city-states . And while you try to avoid spreading your religion,other's civilizations which choose the follower's belief of their religions wisely will have more advantage than you .

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 12, 2012, 12:11 PM
I'm pretty sure you can spread your religion (via missionaries) to the cities of an AI who has picked a different religion as long as you have open borders. A city's dominant religion is determined by raw numbers not the choice of an AI (IIRC).

So having bad follower beliefs doesn't hinder the spread of your religion so much as it would effect the adoption of your religion as the state religion of the AIs and thus diplomacy.

Louis XXIV
Apr 12, 2012, 12:41 PM
Unless they build Inquisitors.

Although why you wouldn't want your cities to get follower beliefs is beyond me.

Pazyryk
Apr 12, 2012, 12:59 PM
Has there been any confirmation that a civ can choose a "state religion"? Follower beliefs depend on city religion. There is some kind of "state" effect used in diplomacy, but that does not necessarily mean that you have a choice. It could be that "state religion" = "majority religion", or it could be that the diplomatic effects are prorated.

(Unless someone has heard otherwise.)

CYZ
Apr 12, 2012, 01:26 PM
Has there been any confirmation that a civ can choose a "state religion"? Follower beliefs depend on city religion. There is some kind of "state" effect used in diplomacy, but that does not necessarily mean that you have a choice. It could be that "state religion" = "majority religion", or it could be that the diplomatic effects are prorated.

(Unless someone has heard otherwise.)

TBH, I guess there is no state religion. Diplomatic effects will be based on the amount of cities with a dominant religion (''you have at least 1 city with our dominant religion'' or ''you have the same dominant religion'').

My guess is that it is very possible to have a different religion in every city and thus you have no dominant religion. I wonder if it will be based on amount of citizens belonging to a religion or on amount of cities though.

AriochIV
Apr 12, 2012, 10:30 PM
Since other civilizations will have positive or negative diplomatic modifiers towards you based on what "your religion is," there's got to be some mechanism where you choose one (because you may not necessarily be able to found one yourself). Otherwise there's no point to such a modifier, if you have no choice in the matter.

CYZ
Apr 13, 2012, 12:32 AM
Since other civilizations will have positive or negative diplomatic modifiers towards you based on what "your religion is," there's got to be some mechanism where you choose one (because you may not necessarily be able to found one yourself). Otherwise there's no point to such a modifier, if you have no choice in the matter.

You have a choice. You can attempt to spread a religion faster by using missionaries, you can also try to get rid of a religion through inquisitors.

It doesn't seem like there will be a ''switch state religion to X'' button. You'll have to work for it.

X-Worf
Apr 13, 2012, 12:34 AM
No, it says purchase which means using gold. missionaries are always available with faith (requires at least 1 follower).

From which source did you get this?

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 01:24 AM
You have a choice. You can attempt to spread a religion faster by using missionaries, you can also try to get rid of a religion through inquisitors.

It doesn't seem like there will be a ''switch state religion to X'' button. You'll have to work for it.
Well, whether there's a button or not, there has to be a state religion for the other civilizations to recognize. Making you play a numbers game to get the state religion you want is possible, but it seems unnecessary... and it smacks too much of micromanagement for the sort of "streamlined" play that Firaxis prefers these days.

xaka
Apr 13, 2012, 04:22 AM
I think the papacy says "influence rating points" as in points towards your influence rating with said civilization.

Golden Skull
Apr 13, 2012, 07:22 AM
It could also be influence "ranking" points.

Cyon
Apr 13, 2012, 07:46 AM
Another religion related topic, how will Rationalism and Piety affect the amount of faith you recive?

It would be interesting if choosing Rationalism would give you a negative modifier to the amount of faith you get but at the same time boost other things.

Sent from my GT-I8150 using Tapatalk

snipperrabbit!!
Apr 13, 2012, 07:48 AM
I'm pretty confident it's 'earning' !

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 09:11 PM
I'm pretty confident it's 'earning' !
That one at least might fit, but I'm not sure it makes any sense. :D

ghenry27
Apr 13, 2012, 11:48 PM
its +15 to Influence starting point, of course. Silly noodles

Pazyryk
Apr 14, 2012, 02:22 PM
Well, whether there's a button or not, there has to be a state religion for the other civilizations to recognize. Making you play a numbers game to get the state religion you want is possible, but it seems unnecessary... and it smacks too much of micromanagement for the sort of "streamlined" play that Firaxis prefers these days.

I kind of disagree. I think the trend has been "to let your actions speak for you," rather than "press a button" to get an instant effect. For example, the ratio of research:gold used to be under instant player control (via slider). But now you have to control it indirectly and over the long-term by how you play (i.e., what you build). I have no clue which way they will implement State Religion.

theis81
Apr 15, 2012, 05:51 AM
I kind of disagree. I think the trend has been "to let your actions speak for you," rather than "press a button" to get an instant effect. For example, the ratio of research:gold used to be under instant player control (via slider). But now you have to control it indirectly and over the long-term by how you play (i.e., what you build). I have no clue which way they will implement State Religion.

In European history Kings have converted for diplomatic or other reasons where they could gain from it. For example Harald Bluetooth converted to Christianity for political reasons after a loss to King Otto (German) in the 970s. At the time most of the Danes where still believers of the old gods.

However when Harald Bluetooth converted Denmark the spread of Christian influence increased.

I assume (hope) religion mechanism work somehow similar. You choose a state religion which works for diplomacy and at the same time pressure from that religion gets a boost.

Stefanskantine
Apr 15, 2012, 08:29 PM
However when Harald Bluetooth converted Denmark the spread of Christian influence increased.



But did it increase because Bluetooth converted, or because Bluetooth built churches and so on after he converted.

chazzycat
Apr 15, 2012, 09:43 PM
does anyone know where the benefit goes, for founder beliefs such as tithe and church property?

Does it go to the holy city, or is it a separate revenue stream like trade route income?

(i.e. will these bonuses will be subject to city percentage modifiers or not?)

bite
Apr 15, 2012, 10:46 PM
Another religion related topic, how will Rationalism and Piety affect the amount of faith you recive?

It would be interesting if choosing Rationalism would give you a negative modifier to the amount of faith you get but at the same time boost other things.



This is a really interesting idea, I wounder if it is implemented that way, it would make sense given the current setup of the policy tree's. And then is there a reverse that picking the Piety tree effects your science. Now before someone says anything I know this is not realistic as science as positively effected religion and religion has positively effected science, but as a game play mechanic it could work.

Glassmage
Apr 16, 2012, 12:22 AM
The mutual exclusive option is enough for Piety and Rationalism. No need for more modifiers.Technically you could choose Rationalism and call your Religion "Technocracy". Choosing "Messenger of the Gods" and "Interfaith Dialogue" improve science.

Carl5872
Apr 17, 2012, 11:26 AM
I think Sacred path has the best potential. If you plop a city in a bunch of jungle think how fast you'll tear through the early social policies. Mad Monty loves this!

Carl5872
Apr 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
To balance this it's quite simple . Just don't allow stacking this bonus and Oligarchy bonus . If still's overpowered,just limit to few cities .

It's also limited indirectly by opportunity costs. For example you miss out on the potential gold/culture/science from the other choices. So your competitors will be more advanced than you in those areas.

Another drawback to this bonus is that you have to be on the defensive for it to benefit you, which may mean the battles are all taking place on your turf. This means youre not invading or conquering and potentially your getting pillaged.

Not that I'm saying its bad, I feel it's one of the stronger ones, especially for a turtling culture/science win. Just wanted to point out the downsides too.

Pouakai
Apr 17, 2012, 11:54 PM
A guy at 2K forums noticed this:

Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers

Amphitheaters. Are collosseums being renamed for a Collosseum wonder? Or are we getting a new building?

Montov
Apr 18, 2012, 04:12 AM
Most likely a new building.

Louis XXIV
Apr 18, 2012, 07:34 AM
Yeah, my guess is removing the culture from Temples so as to need a new building.

CYZ
Apr 18, 2012, 07:37 AM
So how do people feel that culture and faith are strongly connected?

It seems to me you can't really go for one without going for the other. Not sure if I like this.

Seek
Apr 18, 2012, 10:06 AM
So how do people feel that culture and faith are strongly connected?

It seems to me you can't really go for one without going for the other. Not sure if I like this.

I don't see a strong connection: there are plenty of choices that don't involve culture at all, and faith seems like it will be easier to accrue with a wider empire while policies become more difficult to get if going wide. Faith looks pretty independent to me.

AriochIV
Apr 18, 2012, 11:17 AM
I preferred in Civ IV that buildings could have multiple outputs -- Libraries produced both culture and science. I don't think the way Civ V tried to make each building completely specialized was a good idea, so I wouldn't mind seeing things diversify a bit.

Pazyryk
Apr 18, 2012, 01:59 PM
I preferred in Civ IV that buildings could have multiple outputs -- Libraries produced both culture and science. I don't think the way Civ V tried to make each building completely specialized was a good idea, so I wouldn't mind seeing things diversify a bit.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's absolutely absurd that so many wonders provide +1 culture. It's like they have this ridged inviolable design rule that each item can do only exactly one thing. Unfortunately, that means there are only really 4 or 5 kinds of buildings in the game (just repeated with different yield and cost numbers). You have a much greater diversity of building flavors with combinatorial yields. E.g., a university with +science/culture, and then a laboratory with +science only.

Lord Olleus
Apr 18, 2012, 03:54 PM
The thing is that having libraries giving cultures made sense in Civ4, where culture was very much secondary to pure commerce or science. You just needed a bit of culture to pop the borders to the fat cross and that was about it.

In Civ5, culture is actually useful to produce lots of - it's almost comparable to science or production or food or gold. As such, having a building that produces two of the above is a little bit silly, you should have to chose what to invest in - not get everything.

Was there a building in Civ4 which gave both a science and a production boost? Or a food and a commerce bonus?

elijahfire
Apr 18, 2013, 04:22 PM
This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

Done!

Seek
Apr 18, 2013, 04:26 PM
Well necro'd! I almost didn't miss it because it's been exactly a year (+28 minutes) since the last post in this thread.:lol::crazyeye: