Making peace with Azteca is definitely the course of action I'd have taken, I just wanted to see what everyone else was going to do :)

We want to happily enjoy our Golden Age in peace, and I really didn't build enough military to expect us to conquer the Aztecs completely, especially since they have some pikes and MDI.

My only regret is that Renata doesn't have the expectation and pressure of having to take out 6 cities with 6 knights :(

Once our golden age is over, we'll hopefully have most major cities full of improvements and ready to churn out units in the time of cavalry. With cavalry, we should be able to take out the entire continent, especially if our rivals don't have saltpeter.

@Matt: I was half-joking about it being a training day for warmongers, but I guess we could do that. Main problem is that it's easy to teach people how to be warmongers when we have knights and they have spearmen :)

Still, we'll invade some other civilizations on another continent, which will be a good lesson in setting up beachheads.

I think it's good to be fairly conservative when attacking. Checking out the enemy city beforehand is definitely worth it. Did you notice how conservative I was? They had a regular pike and a regular spear, and I took along five veteran knights. However yes, it is possible to be too conservative, although imo that's not easy :)

I've always imagined Colorado as a huge desert, with lots of cactus and canyons. Then again, I know that it snows alot in Denver. Your pictures come up as broken images though :(

-Sirp.

Main problem is that it's easy to teach people how to be warmongers when we have knights and they have spearmen :)
Agreed.

Still, we'll invade some other civilizations on another continent, which will be a good lesson in setting up beachheads.
Sounds good.

I've always imagined Colorado as a huge desert, with lots of cactus and canyons. Then again, I know that it snows alot in Denver. Your pictures come up as broken images though
:(
The images have been off and on all day. The fileserver is being real bi**hy today. As far as Colorado is concerned, lots of canyons but no real desert or cactus like you're thinking. This state is the heart of the Rocky Mountains. There are 54 mountains here that are 14,000 ft.+ above sea level. (14,000 ft. = 4267 meters)
We have a little of everything here. The eastern third of the state is the beginning of the Great Plains and the breadbasket of America. It is kinda desolate but it's not desert. Lots of sagebrush.
Then of course the Rockies take up most of the remaining 2/3 of the state. We have some of the best hunting, fishing, and snow skiing in North America here, not to mention white water rafting etc. I love this place. The only place I have ever been that I would rather be is in Alaska. Now that's God's country!
Ok, enough off topic rambling. :o

It's time for another quiz: making people content.

(1) what are the improvements that make unhappy people content? How many people do each of them affect? When do they become available? How much do they cost to build and to maintain?
(2) Which of these improvements should we build? Comment generally on which 'contentness' improvements it's best to build, when, and why.

-Sirp.

General Overview (not suggestions for this game in particular)

Temple - Cerremonial Burrial - Costs 60 shields, or 30 for religious civs - Maintenence 1 gold. Makes 1 unhappy citizen content. Often over rated in my opinion. Build these lots and early if you are a religious civ because they are so cheap and boost culture and expands boarders. For religious civs, they are often worth whiping up for those last 19 shields at shield poor sites as they are their own answer to the whip unhappyness. Build them rarely at all early on if you are a scientific civ because libraries are so cheap and the prefered route to culture and boarder expansion. For scientific civs, the only reason to build these in most cases is to bring a critical, can't wait resource or other needed tile within your boarders before the discovery of Literature, or to fight a cultural battle for control of a tile with a neighbor. Later on you may want it so you can build a cathedral. Build it asap if you are going for a culture win.

If your civ has neither of these traits, your priority in building them depends on which route you choose to pursue for happyness (luxuries/markets or Temple/Cathedral), and on many other factors, such as if you are doing your own research (and therefore need libraries) or buying (need markets/banks), or if you are in a cultural battle.

Colosseum - Construction - Costs 120 sheilds and 2g maintenence - Makes 2 unhappy people content. Build these almost never unless going for a culture win, especially with a religious civ. They cost almost as much to build for a non religious civ as a cathedral, and MORE to build than a cathedral for a religious civ. Bad shield cost for the culture and happyness generated most of the time.

Cathedral - Monotheisim (and requires a temple) - Costs 160 shields, or 80 for a religious civ and 2g maintenence - Makes 3 unhappy citizens content. Great buy for a religious civ, or any civ that is going to get, or has Sistine, because that wonder doubles the effect of cathedrals. Also good for civs with limited access to luxuries.

Marketplace - Currency - Costs 100 Shields and 1g maintenece - makes a variable # of people content. Often overlooked by new players, this is the absolute BEST way to generate happyness if you have access to lots of luxuries because it kills 2 birds with one stone. It generates extra commerce AND makes extra people happy at the same time if you have 3 or more luxuries.
3 lux = 1 extra happy face
4 lux = 2 extra happy face
5 lux = 4 extra happy face
6 lux = 6 extra happy face
7 lux = 9 extra happy face
8 lux = 12 extra happy face

Also, lux happyness, like entertainer and tax slider happyness, doesnt just make people content, but can make them happy.

Police Station - Communisim - Costs 160 shields and 2g maintenence - Makes ??# of people stay content in a representative government (Republic and Democracy) durring wartime based on war wearyness. They don't do annything for happyness when at peace, but fight war wearyness via a formula that as far as i know no one has made an exact crack of. Build these when expecting to fight long wars, or wars with high attrition rates from a representative government. They also lower corruption, so can be good builds for your marginally productive cities to increase their output, especially when combined with a courthouse and/or WLTKD.

Wonders - Mostly NOT available on the higher difficulties. Rarely at all on Dieity except with a leader (though we did self build FOUR pre industrial wonders in my current Dieity SG, that is EXTREMELY rare, possibly unprecidented to get that many from scratch.)

The Oracle - Mysticisim - Costs 300 shields - Expires at Theology -Doubles the effect of temples. Build this almost never. It comes available very early when you really have way more pressing needs like settlers or military or actually useful wonders, and expires not long after it is built. The only exception would be when going for a 20k culture win.

The Hanging Gardens - Monarchy - Costs 300 shields - Makes 3 people in its city content, and one citizen in all other cities - Expires at Steam Power. I presonally really like this wonder, and on emperor will sometimes build it as my first wonder if the cascade cooperates. It is often very useful to have in your best producing city so that you can keep everyone working and may therefore help you get some later wonders.

The Sistine Chappel - Theology - 600 shields - Doubles the effect of all Cathedrals - Never Expires. This is the mother of all happyness wonders and a personal favorite of mine. Unless you are swimming in happyness from 6-7 homegrown lux, build this whenever you can get away with it, especially if you are religious (comobs with the cheap cathedrals). And if you are swimming in happyness, build it anyway if you can for denial to the AI (though sometimes other wonders like Sun Tsu's or Leonardos are more valuable to deny the AI its true).

JS Bach's Cathedral - Music Theory - 600 shields - Never Expires - Makes 2 citizens in each city on its continent content. This is the sister of the mother of all happyness wonders on a large continent or pangea map. Build this whenever practical or possible, taking other needs into consideration.

Shakespears Theater - Free Artistry - 400 Shields - Never Expires -Makes 8 citizens in its city content . Build this when going for a culture win only in most cases. There are other uses for it, like so you can draft a jillion extra defenders w/o the city rioting, but most stratagies that involve its use are really exploitive of loopholes in the game.

Cure for Cancer - Genetics - Costs 1000 shields - Never Expires - Makes one extra citizen content in each city. Build this??? I've never even researched genetics in any game :p

Universal Sufferage - Industialization - Costs 800 shields - Never expires. Decreases war wearyness. See Police Station above.

And finally, getting technical, any building that increases commerce in its city when comboed with the use of the luxury slider can increase the ammount of happyness in its city becuse more coins are available and could be spent on lux taxes. Even building a road on a tile being worked could possibly have that effect.

I'll avoid getting technical about the whole MP for ceartian governments thing I think since those aren't city improvements. :)

Edit: typo in original post where i said Sufferage was 600 shields.

Temple - cost 60 shields (halved if religious)/upkeep of 1 gpt. Available with ceremonial burial, and makes one unhappy person content. Effect is doubled if you get the Oracle (mysticism). I can never remember the shield cost of wonders.

Cathedral - costs 160/80 or 180/90 - I can never remember - , makes 2 unhappy citizens content, upkeep 2 gpt. Available with monotheism. Effect is doubled if you get the Sistine Chapel (theology).

I love Sistine, so tend to build a lot of both temples and cathedrals. Maybe too many for best cash-flow efficiency, but I can't resist those smiling faces. :)

Colosseums I'm not sure - do they make 2 unhappy citizens content or 2 content citizens happy? In any case I rarely need to build them. Upkeep 2gpt but I'm not sure what they cost (120 sounds about in the ballpark). Available with construction.

Bach's (Music Theory) will make 2 unhappy citizens content in each city on its own continent, essentially a free cathedral. I haven't built this lately because I've been playing a lot of archipelagos and fast-research games, but it's a nice wonder.

Ummm, what else ... Hanging Gardens (Monarchy) - 3 content in own city and 1 content in all the rest. I kinda like this one. It's saved my bacon in a couple of recent games where I had a critical lux shortage early. Usually I don't need it, though.

Marketplaces are content->happy improvements, not unhappy->content, so I think they're outside the scope of this quiz. If not, they cost 80 (1 gpt upkeep) and are available with currency. I build as many of these as I can get, as fast as I can get 'em.

One question regarding improvements and happiness. In which order does the game calculate? Say for instance, you have a size 12 city with marketplace only, 4 luxuries, no temple or cathedral, and you're in a republic so MPs are irrelevant. (Regent/monarch level) Will the city riot? Without the marketplace the city would have 2 content and 10 unhappy citizens. (I'm ignoring any commerce effects here - I dont' really understand those either! :p) Will the marketplace give all six of its potential happy faces, or will it only affect the two citizens that are already content? Or is it somewhere in between, like, it takes two marketplace happy faces to make an unhappy citizen happy, for example.) And if, or instance, the city had temple plus marketplace instead of just a marketplace, how does that affect things?

Renata, who could really work these things out herself one of these days using the F1 screen but who keeps forgetting to do so

PS forgot a question. Which ones should we build? I'd like to get one of Sistines or Bach's. We shouldn't need both, especially with our lux situation looking good. How long till our furs are hooked up, or are they already and I just forgot? I'd go marketplace first for happiness, then temple/cathedral as necessary in whichever cities need the help.

Originally posted by Renata
One question regarding improvements and happiness. In which order does the game calculate? Say for instance, you have a size 12 city with marketplace only, 4 luxuries, no temple or cathedral, and you're in a republic so MPs are irrelevant. (Regent/monarch level) Will the city riot? Without the marketplace the city would have 2 content and 10 unhappy citizens. (I'm ignoring any commerce effects here - I dont' really understand those either! :p) Will the marketplace give all six of its potential happy faces, or will it only affect the two citizens that are already content? Or is it somewhere in between, like, it takes two marketplace happy faces to make an unhappy citizen happy, for example.) And if, or instance, the city had temple plus marketplace instead of just a marketplace, how does that affect things?

In your scenario above this is what will happen.
Market= 6 happy faces

The first 2 luxes will makes your 2 content citizens happy.
The third lux (2 happy faces) will make 1 citizen happy. (One face will make him content then the second will make him happy.)
Same for the fourth lux, it will make 1 unhappy citizen happy.

So yes, it will riot because you will have 4 happy and 8 unhappy.

If you had 5 luxes you would have 5 happy, 1 content and 7 unhappy, since the fifth and sixth give 3 happy faces. (Add a temple and I believe you would have 5 happy, 2 content and 7 unhappy. I don't think temples can raise people from content to happy. Just from unhappy to content.
6 luxes> 7 happy and 5 unhappy.

Luxury number 7 and 8 would add 2 more happy each, so even with all 8 you couldn't get the city into WLTKD without lux tax or a entertainer. (You would have 11 happy and 1 unhappy with all 8 luxes, and if you had that temple the unhappy one would be content and the city would be in WLTKD.)

Thanks, Matt. :) So if a city has no lux tax, four luxuries, temple plus cathedral plus marketplace (no wonders) on monarch level it's good for ...

(counts on fingers, needs to use a few toes too)

.. still only good for size 11 w/o rioting? (Five content citizens made happy and one unhappy made content.)

Renata

@ Renata

Monarch = 2 content
Temple = 1 content
Cathedral = 3 content

Content base = 6

Market with 4 lux = 6 happyness making smileys so all 6 content citzens become happy leaving you 6 happy and 6 unhappy citizens, so you are good to go.

On Emperor/Dieity, you would riot with this setup unless you made the 12th citizen a specialist.

Originally posted by Renata
Thanks, Matt. :) So if a city has no lux tax, four luxuries, temple plus cathedral plus marketplace (no wonders) on monarch level it's good for ...

(counts on fingers, needs to use a few toes too)

.. still only good for size 11 w/o rioting? (Five content citizens made happy and one unhappy made content.)

Renata

Actually in the scenario above it would be good at size 12 and riot at 13.

2 content natively + 4 lux with market = 4 happy
temple and cathedral = 4 content (3 for cathedral and 1 for the temple),
and of course you would have 4 unhappy.

HTH :)
Matt

Ah, that goes to the other (implied) half of my original question - in what order are these happiness/contentness effects applied?

Yours works if you do the marketplace effect first; mine works if you do temples/cathedrals first. (2 natively content, goes to five with temple/cathedral; marketplace's six-happy-face contribution makes all of those five happy plus one unhappy citizen content; thus still leaving six unhappy in a size-12 city)

Renata, confused :p

Monarch = 2 content
Temple = 1 content
Cathedral = 3 content

Content base = 6

I think you are having a bad math day :lol: how did you come up with 5?

It applies content first.

If it did the lux first it would end up making the 2 monarch level content citizens happy, then making 2 unhappy citizens happy for a total of 4, then the temple/cathedral would make 4 more unhappy citizens content, leaving 4 unhappy, which would work out to the same thing for riot purposes, though it would affect your score and we all know getting a high score is why we play right (sarcasm) :rolleyes:

I am pretty sure the way I am doing it is correct, but I'm not positive.
You have me real curious now. :lol:
When I get home in about 3 hours I will fire up an old save and do some testing. Sell off a cathedral or market and see what happens. I will post my results about 8 or 9 your time.

Edit: I see that Todd was posting at the same time. Now I am really, really curious!

Cathedral's three content citizens? I thought it was two. So a case of misinformation, not the wrong number of fingers and toes, apparently.

Renata <-- always plays for high score. Really. Really really.

*cough*

Actuallly, Matt might be right..... *goes to check*. Note that for riot purposes it doenst matter. What matters is that you have at least one happy face for each citizen, counting the # you have for the level your playing on. It would affect score however.

Ack! All these calculations so early in the morning is making my head spin, added in with the confusion of Matt_g and ToddMarshall having the same avatar. Anyhow yeah, what Todd said is right.....I think :)

Anyhow, I was only talking about improvements really, not Wonders, so the three we have to play with are temple, cathedral, and colosseum.

The main reason I wanted to bring this up, is to write a treatise on cathedrals. Most players realize that colosseums should only be built if *really* needed. They don't have a good cost/benefit ratio, and are expensive to maintain. Meanwhile, most players feel that building cathedrals is inevitable.

Cathedrals are almost always better to build than colosseums, but don't think they are a must-build for a moment. If I want to go to war in the middle ages, the best way of financing it is to try avoiding building cathedrals, and spend the shields on knights instead. Cathedrals can be delayed until the time of hospitals, or perhaps even never built. For each cathedral you don't build, you can get more than 2 knights. That's going to be 15+ knights for your entire core, and that's *alot*.

It depends heavily on how many luxuries you can get. On a pangea you'd be less likely to get cathedrals, since you can probably trade for more luxuries earlier.

In this game, we've been building cathedrals, but now we have contact with the Ottomans, we might be able to stop. Ocean-travel is just around the corner. If we can get 5+ luxuries online, we can probably avoid it. That would save us many shields, and would allow us to build more wonders, or gear up for a war against one of our rivals.

And ack! I have to go to work now :-/ I might write more on this later (like from work :) )

-Sirp.

OK, matt raised enough doubits in my mind, I went back to an old monarch level game I had played as the Aztecs. I had a "lovely" start. The "island" civ on a large pangea map. In fact I started on the only land on the planet that wasn't part of the pangea except for one 4 tile island one square off my coast. :rolleyes:.

Being religious, and with no access to luxuries, I of course built temples and cathedrals everywhere. (Not to mention Sistine and Bachs in the capital).

Anyway, I loaded up a late save and went to one city I had to squeeze in that was still size 12 as it wasn't worth a hospital.

Noted I had 5 lux including one gems i had managed to secure off the mainland. I found somone to give that away to so I only had 4 lux, then raized the capital to do away with Sistine and Bachs influence. After moving the slider up and back to get the game to recalc happyness, I got the following result

Looks like I was right, though Matt really had me wondering. In the end, all that matters is that you count up the # of happy faces, add 1/2/3/4 for difficulty level, and make sure that comes up to at least the # of citizens in the city. If it does, you are good to go.

Thanks Todd.
I just got home and had myself wondering to, so I loaded an old regent game. Had a fairly early save and found that you were right and I was wrong. :o

Looked at my capital which had a cathedral, temple, and market with 3 lux at pop 9.
4 happy, 2 content and 3 unhappy. The way I was figuring it, if I had been correct, it should of had 3 happy, 4 content and 2 unhappy.
Whew! I'm glad we got that straightened out ;)

To continue what I was saying, cathedrals are a must-have for a religious civilization, because they get them so cheaply, and the culture alone is very nice. But if you're not religious, don't assume a cathedral in each city is something you need.

Sistine's vs Bach is a tradeoff that depends heavily on whether you're religious, and the size of your continent. If I can get Bach with a non-religious civ, I love getting it and then *not* building cathedrals in my cities as long as I can, if ever. I will usually build them after I get factories, when they are really needed, and when they take 4 turns to build instead of 14 turns. It depends on the number of luxuries you can get though.

Essentially my message is this: Don't assume that cathedrals are a 'must build'. Marketplaces *are* a must-build in all core cities, and libraries are too if you're doing self-researching, as are universities. But cathedrals aren't. Don't consider it inevitable that you have to build them, you'll save yourself alot of shields if you don't, and during the shield-starved middle ages too. Oh btw, how's the turn coming Renata? :)

-Sirp.

I'm done. :) Need to do my uploads, be another few minutes. Apologies in advance for any weediness -- I was, and am, extremely sleepy, but I wanted to play my turn soooo bad. At least I'd have to work really hard to mess things up critically at this point. :) Here's a brief summary:

- we have contact with everybody, and we're so far ahead in tech it ain't funny
- we're pulling in so much money I didn't know what to do with it all
- there was a little 'surprise' at the end of the turn, just in time for Matt to enjoy it ;)


Renata

surprise? My guess: hammurabi up and declared war on us. :)

-Sirp.

Preturn: We have contact with Japan, Russia, Iroquois! Missed that in the turn reports! F8's kinda nice - we're 160 pts ahead of our nearest competition (Japan) on the histograph. Nice work, everyone! :) As long as I'm here, I put several new additions on the palace.

Time for some diplomacy. So to speak. Peace to the Aztecs in return for Engineering, contact with the Ottomans and 60g. We say hi to Japan. They're broke, and lack *cough* currency. They have monarchy, which I suppose is nice for them. Osman's even more pathetic, also broke, and lacking currency, republic and construction. Russia is, you guessed it, broke, but a bit better off scientifically, having feudalism and monotheism. Iroquois are even with Russia, and also broke. I buy embassies everywhere.

Kyoto is size 7, set to worker build, in anarchy. They have four luxes -- all the ones we don't have. Istanbul is size 4, has the oracle, but is only now building a temple. Think I should ruin their lives by gifting them theology now? :p Man, are they backwards. They do have an excess iron to sell once anybody gets the necessary techs for trade. 2 luxes. Moscow is size 6 and in anarchy. Really bad worker development, I must say. Just one lux, NO strategic resources. Finally, Salamanca is a more-respectable size 10, building a settler. They have four lux.

I offer Osman 55g for his WM, which clears up most of the black. The other civs are very compartmentalized by natural boundaries. Japan is on its own (riverless) island. Osman's stuck on a dry peninsula - poor Osman. Explains all those mines I saw around Istanbul. Russia's on another peninsula. Iroquois are in the middle, with a lot of jungle. We should be able to do some lux trading when we get navigation next turn.

Quick survey of the cities looks ok; only thing I do is a switch of Athens' and Delphi's defense. (Got burned in a recent game with a coastal city defended only by a warrior, lol. Was in a bad spot and I couldn't get defense there first turn after the treacherous Zulus landed.) Finally, I hit 'enter'.

610 AD. Navigation comes in. Going to Music Theory next, due in 4 at +141. :D No idea what I'm gonna do with all this cash. Delphi cathedral - bank. Argos cathedral - bank. Rush library in Tlacopan. Malinalco is under a little cultural pressure, switch to library. Switch Tlaxcala to library, too. We do need hoplites, but I'll build them from our productive cities. Each civ on the other landmasses has at least one harbor - kind of them. I ask Japan what they'd like for their fine ivory. Engineering? We can do that. Now go research invention for us, ok? Now Osman - he gets nice new robes and wines for his dyes. We get to turn off our lux tax, now making +203. I'm not going to trade with Hiawatha - he has by far the most potential of any of the civs over there and I'd rather not help him out too much. Wouldn't be enough for WLTKD anyway. I send one of our knights up to Tzintzuntzen just to get a unit there. Our galley heads out into the great blue.

620 AD. Thermo bank - Sistine as prebuild for Bach. Pharsalos builds cathedral - bank. Meant to change that over last turn now that we don't need cathedrals and forgot. Tlacopan builds library - market. Tlaxcala riots, the ungrateful wretches. Working on getting a road over there. Corinth's cathedral switched to bank.

IT. Rome wants to trade monarchy even-up for chivalry. Get me invention and we can talk, Caesar.

630 AD. Sparta bank - hoplite. Rhodes courthouse - aqueduct. I buy libraries in Tzintuntzen and Malinalco. Up to 232 gpt. :D

640 AD. Sparta hoplite x2. Ephesus university - bank. The libraries finish, both cities set to marketplace.

650 AD. Music Theory - Economics, due in 4 at +159. We're up to 892 gold. Did I mention I don't know what to do with it all? Thought I did. Sparta hoplite - knight. Rush library in Tlaxcala. Diplo check: nothing new.

660 AD. Athens Copernicus - bank. Tlaxcala library-market.

670 AD. Herakleia bank - knight. Thessalonica courthouse - worker. We lose our supply of dyes? Wow. I check - Izmit no longer has a harbor! I didn't know AIs did that sort of thing. Ottomans and Russia are at war with Japan - could Japan have actually landed an offensive catapult? Can't be. At any rate, we're fine to size 11 with just a marketplace and 12 with a temple as well, so I'm not going to do any more trading right now. Next player can consider trade w/ Iroquois; I'm too sleepy. Poor Corinth keeps getting its shields taken away from it, so I rush the last 3 turns of its bank. Likewise Argos.

680 AD. Sparta knight-knight. Corinth bank-hoplite. Argos bank-hoplite. Marathon courthouse-marketplace. Note to next player - marathon will go to size 8 and riot four turns from now (it lacks temple also); the marketplace should be rushed before then. Thessalonica worker - worker. I finally notice that optimized-for-food Knossos was working a hill. I fix that, and also switch it to aqueduct. Urgh, noticed a hill near Sparta that wasn't mined yet. Get to rectifying that.

690 AD. Economics in, set to printing press, due in 4 at a whopping 336 gpt. The AI're gonna get invention eventually right? Right??? Argos hoplite - hoplite. I'm going to send this hoplite and the next toward Tzintzuntzen and its poor lonely knight. Not that I really think the babs are gonna attack.

IT :eek: Several Roman offensive units (two horses and a warrior, with a 4-unit mini-SOD backing them up) enter our territory near Ephesus! Hey, Matt, wanna do some fighting? ;)

700 AD. Mycenae temple - courthouse (eminently veto-able, esp with Rome acting up). Argos hoplite-hoplite (ditto). Thessalonica worker-aqueduct.

We have decent defense in Sparta and Ephesus (3 hoplites and 2 knights total), and some backup next door in Tlaxcala, including a knight that can reach Ephesus & attack first turn. So you can decide what you want to do about the situation. I'll leave all military units and a vulnerable worker unmoved.

I think I might've made mistakes with the worker movement. (Since I'm barely keeping my eyes open, we'll just blame it on that, ok?) Except for the four cities that were size 12 at the start of my turn, I've tried to maximize food everywhere. In retrospect (actually about 2/3 of the way through 'spect), I think this was a bad plan. Sure we grow faster, but I've basically wasted the GA production bonus from these cities. Thoughts?

Athens builds bank next turn; my thought was to switch to Smiths after that, as Athens is our best shield producer by a significant margin. I filled up the food box there while building Copernicus and the bank (didn't cost any turns), so next turn the citizen on the regular grass can move to the hill if it helps the turns. We have tons of gold; rush-build as you wish. Markets would probably be best, I'm thinking (to the extent I'm thinking at all right now). Nothing's critical except the market in Marathon.

Have fun with the Romans ....

Renata



the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-700AD.zip)

Originally posted by Sirp
Essentially my message is this: Don't assume that cathedrals are a 'must build'. Marketplaces *are* a must-build in all core cities, and libraries are too if you're doing self-researching, as are universities. But cathedrals aren't. Don't consider it inevitable that you have to build them, you'll save yourself alot of shields if you don't, and during the shield-starved middle ages too.-Sirp.

One more thing I have learned in this game. :goodjob:
I realize now there are times when I should not have been building them but did anyways. This is one I won't forget.
Thanks!

there was a little 'surprise' at the end of the turn, just in time for Matt to enjoy it ;)
Renata....you :flamedevi :D

Matt
Now eagerly awaiting Renata's turn report.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-700AD.JPG


Nice guess, Sirp, but wrong. :)

Renata

Caesar, Caesar, you look like you are about to make a very....poor.....choice!

I saw that and was all ready to post a got it and say I would have it done by this time tomorrow. I was thinking of how I was going to :hammer: the piss out of him and then I realized......it's not my turn!:cry:
CivGeneral is up. Lucky dog. ;)

Ok :) No need for a quiz from Sirp tonight! I have a few questions... hopefully they will get me to a better understanding =o)

1. Renata keeps making reference to the AI learning Invention. Is this because we are more concerned with other techs right now or because we are expecting them to get it soon and it will be quicker/easier to trade for it, orrrr somethin else :)

2. I know that hoplites are good at defending and that, afaik, we don't have an impending war (necessarily) but should we get some offensive going? Isn't it the boyscout motto to always be prepared =o)

3. Is there a reason that we don't want to have the extra cash? Doesn't it come in handy when we do go to war and war weariness hits? When we get the stock exchange don't we start earning 5% interest?

4. I don't understand where Renata said Corinth keeps losing shields :) Losing shields to what?

5. I know that rushing costs gold and hapiness ... how much happiness?

Thanks for your help =o)

Shaesha

Oh, Civ is up! That's right I was at the end of the rotation so he came in after me. Oops.

Well ---- enjoy, Civ!

@ Shaesha

1. This is my guess, that at least some of the civs will go for the next tech on the bottom part of the tech tree (invention) rather than following us down the upper part of the tree, where we were already several techs ahead. We would then be able to trade for invention. (Whereas if we research invention ourselves there won't be anything to trade for.) But we're already into printing press (which we don't even need, hence me making the comment at that point), and no sign of invention - we may just be too far ahead. If I'd been thinking straight, I'd have gifted engineering to anyone who didn't have it just to help out.

2. Yep I agree. One of the cities I now have building military units is perfect for hoplites (21 spt i think), but the other 2 or three I'd have switched to knights in next couple of turns even without the Romans getting frisky.

3. You could well be right. I'm not used to making such large sums with nothing *urgent* to spend it on and I keep feeling like I should be spending it on somethng. I don't know whether I should or not, really. Stock exchanges are too far away, though (corporation), to be too concerned that factor right now. I don't think we're going to have trouble with war weariness; even once our GA is over we'll have a good enough cash flow to absorb a few notches worth of lux tax, and none of the other civs is strong enough or advanced enough to put too much of a hurt on us that we'd need it.

4. My workers! I wanted Corinth to grow fast, and used all those piles of workers you guys left me to re-irrigate everything in sight around that city and all the other ones that weren't max size yet. I think I overdid it, though. :(

5. Rushing only costs happiness if you're doing it in despotism or communism, where it costs population points instead of cash. In monarchy/republic/democracy there's no happiness penalty.

Renata

Yes, CivGeneral is up now, although he hasn't been around, so I'm not sure if he's awol. So Matt_g, if you'd like, you are welcome to play a shadow, and if CG doesn't show up it can count as the real thing. If he does show up, then I'll still comment on your turn as a shadow.

We really have left the other civilizations in the dust! Good work all round. Hopefully we'll be able to finish this one quick, ripping through our enemies speedily. In some ways, I'm a little disappointed that I won't get to teach some valuable concepts about trading and brokering, because there's barely anyone worth trading and brokering between! I probably won't make too many comments about minor things like precise city management and worker jobs - unless they're done very badly - from here on out, since such micromanagement really isn't that necessary anymore.

Renata, you make it so much less fun to get the :whipped: out on you with this "I'm tired" excuse :-p You did a good job trading for luxuries and making peace with the Aztecs. However, you did make one major mistake: researching Printing Press? Why oh why? Printing Press has ZERO use to us. Zilch, nada, none. Why on earth would you pour cash into researching it exactly? So the other civilizations could research Engineering for us? Well since we've taken out the whole of the rest of the top half of the tree without them doing it, it doesn't seem very likely. Even so, you would cut science to 0% and wait for them to do it if anything, not pour cash into a useless technology. However, since we can research engineering in 4 turns, we should just go straight for it. It is true that good players do sometimes give away technologies to the AI to allow them to move the research rate along, however this is generally done in games where the player is going for a high score, and thus the game is not a zero-sum one.

Here we're playing for a win, and that's it. So it *is* a zero-sum game. We want to defeat our rivals, and so we want to be ahead of them as many technologies as possible. We would love to get engineering before they do, and would prefer to keep them from gunpowder for as long as possible. The next player should definitely cancel Printing Press (even if it were due next turn), and go straight for engineering. There is but one word that should be on the minds of our scientists right now: 'cavalry'. -Sirp.

Oh, and I'd imagine you did fine maximizing food Renata, it'll just mean the city has higher population for later in the golden age. It's rare that you don't want to maximize food in a city with growth potential. I hope you see what I meant about Sparta being underdeveloped for production :)

What to do with cash? If we're in surplus, then store it. It can be used later to buy luxuries, to bribe other civs into war, and when we hit the Industrial Age, tech prices shoot up, and our gold reserves will fund deficit research. (and note that if we weren't nice people we could stick several workers and a hoplite on our iron and road-pillage every turn, getting lots and lots of real cheap knights :-p ) Your other responses to Shaesha were great :goodjob:

Oh and it was a real toss-up between choosing the Hammer or Julius. Hammurabi has always impressed me as being a bit uhh...let's say unbalanced? Julius seems a little more civilized. In fact, I don't think I've been sneak-attacked by Julius before. We'll have fun taking him out :)

-Sirp.

Other reasons you might gift technology would be to pull somone who is scientific but hopelessly small and behind up to get them to draw a free tech at a new age either to trade for it cheaper from somone else, or to trade for it yourself. This may find a tad more use with the newest patch making the free tech pull really random.

It can also be useful sometimes on the higer levels to do to help you win a close space race by stimulating them to reseach somthing for you down a particular path (or again, the free tech thing).

Annother obsure reason would be to trade military techs, particularly nationalisim, replacable parts, and computers to a war ally who you don't want to collapse for whatever reason.

Trading Communisim to an AI that has been at war to try to drag them into that may be useful on rare occasions.

There may be other reasons to do it, but none I can immediately think of.

But Sirip is very right in that you don't want to speed up the tech pace in a game where you are planing on doing a lot of waring any time soon. The slower you can make the AI's get new techs, particularly techs that give them new units (yeah, even longbows, which the AI has no clue what to do with mostly) the better off you are, especially if you have the tech lead and allready have those better units.

Remember also, the Hammer's UU is the bowman, which upgrades to Longbows, so he is one of the civs you would like to delay getting this tech as long as possible because he will likely have a mass of bowmen to upgrade.

Note when I say trading here, I mean taking whatever they'll give, even if it is nothing.

Yes, in a zero-sum game, the only time you want to give an advantage to a rival is if the advantage given to the rival will inflict more damage on a third rival. An example of where you might give away a technology is if you're behind in techs already, but you want to pull other civilizations that are even further behind up to your level with the hope that they'll research and help you catch up to the front runners.

But indeed, the times you would do it are rare indeed for cases where you're not going for the fastest-finished-that-needs-tech

-Sirp.

edited: ack, if you saw what I wrote before, ignore it. Misunderstood what was meant by 'zero-sum' and explained giving away engineering wouldn't have been. But the explanation was irrelevant.

Good points, Todd and Sirp - thanks, I hadn't thought about it quite that way before.

(and now I return you to my original post)

You're absolutely right about printing press; I knew it was silly when I chose it. Happily we'll only lose one turn of research by switching now.

Oh, and don't spare the whip, I just like to whine.

Renata <-- now suffering from insomnia (See? whine whine whine)

Don't spare the whip? I didn't think that I did :)

Oh and yeah, if anyone doesn't know what 'zero-sum' means, I'd be happy to explain.

-Sirp.

ok, some more comments now I've looked at the save:

- Pharsalos is stuck at size 10 for lack of food. Mycenae is taking up its tiles. Marathon's work pattern could be moved westward, allowing Mycenae to also move westward with its citizens, and giving Pharsalos some fertile tiles to work on. Athens could also have its citizens optimized for more shields, and to allow Pharsalos to get access to an extra hill.

- We have two knights in Tlacopan - on our west coast - that I suggest diverting east immediately to counter the Roman threat. We could also move the knight from Tlaxcala over. Note that we can get the advantage of first strike by giving Caesar an ultimatum to leave. Whatever way you do it, make sure *he* declares war on us. Also note that it is possible he is actually going for Babylon.

- Now that we have seen how puny our opponents are, and we're enjoying our golden age, I suggest we aim to get *every* middle age wonder, except Shakespeare's, and perhaps not Leonardo's. I suggest cancelling the bank which is almost complete in Athens in favor of Sun Tzu's Art of War, which is very useful in a warlike game, like we probably aim to play from here on out. If you think that a bank would be really nice to have in Athens, well, look at our current cash flow and you'll see that it's not the most pressing of needs. We might be able to wrest Sun Tzu's from our rivals!

Other than these and previous comments, we're doing great :goodjob:

-Sirp.

*Ahem* I did mention that Athens was not yet optimized for shields in my turn report. That was deliberate - the whole ten turns I was in a situation where optimized/not optimized made no difference to the due date on what I was building, so I figured I might as well fill up the food box. I'm not sure if Athens can go to its max shield potential and still have a hill free for Pharsalos or not; I remember looking at that but can't remember which way it went.

I *did* miss that Pharsalos was in growth limbo.

So you want to go warmongering? Sounds good to me - there will be more to learn doing that, even against cruddy opponents, than just sitting back and cruising to a space launch.

Regarding Sun Tzu's: all the other civs have started it already, and the Aztecs were first to start by a fairly large margin. (I see to remember Rome was building something, too, in addition to Sun Tzu's and started before then - only thing it could possibly be is the Great Wall, though, and I don't remember that showing up in the build queue. Might be worth investigating a few cities too see what sort of timing we're dealing with. Also, at least one civ has Theology already that I noticed. That number will certainly increase by the time Sun Tzu's is built, even if we can beat the Aztecs to it.

Renata

Originally posted by Sirp
Yes, CivGeneral is up now, although he hasn't been around, so I'm not sure if he's awol. So Matt_g, if you'd like, you are welcome to play a shadow, and if CG doesn't show up it can count as the real thing. If he does show up, then I'll still comment on your turn as a shadow.

-Sirp.

Sounds good. I will do this tonight, after work.

And so the peace loving nation of Greece was forced into war to free the people of the world from the tyranny that oppressed them. Or maybe we are trying to free them from their worldly possessions? Either way works for me. :mwaha:

Stormrider

Renata: Yes you did mention that about Athens, although my comments were kinda half-a-critique and half-suggestions-to-next-player. Since I suggested nixing the bank in Athens in favor of a Wonder, maximizing shields would definitely be the best thing to do. But yes, your moves were fine in that regard.

I saw that Pharsalos was in growth limbo immediately upon looking at it, since it came up in yellow. Being able to see these things immediately is always a good skill to acquire.

Once Athens does fill up its food box, we could consider skimming a worker off it. It'd then spend just one turn at size 11. Notice how even though we have around 40 workers, it's *still* not really enough? You can almost never have too many workers.

If the Aztecs get Sun Tzu's, that'd be even better than us getting it. Our peace deal with them only has 10 turns left on it. :)

Yes we may want to switch Themopylae over to Sistine's. It can have it due in 13 turns, and Athens can likewise have Sun Tzu's due in 13 turns. We can possibly snap the cascade that way. But yeah, certainly check out the Aztecs. If they have it due in not so long, let them get it, but don't let them enjoy it for long :)

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp

...researching Printing Press? Why oh why? Printing Press has ZERO use to us. Zilch, nada, none.

Does that mean there is no value to getting to democracy asap??
I understand that it is very important to get to Republic quickly and also assumed the same was true for democracy.
I almost always go for Printing Press --> Democracy in my games. But then again, I do not win on monarch (yet).

Also Sirp, I would like to take up your offer to explain "Zero sum" game. That has me puzzled.

BTW, great game so far.
Actually, you guys ( and girls) are almost too good. Monarch looks easy now. I had expected some more nailbiting situations and some insights on how to deal with an overpowering AI.

Shevek

Edited typing error

Shevek, Democracy in Civilization III holds little value. It's not that much better than Republic, and you get crippled by war weariness if you go to war in it. For a non-religious civilization like us, we will lose about 5 turns in anarchy, and this will not be worth the mild bonuses that Democracy gives us. It's generally best to limit yourself to one period of anarchy per game.

You could *maybe* go for Democracy if you're a religious civilization, and you're planning to play peacefully. I never even consider it otherwise.

Remember, there are only three good governments in Civilization III:

- Despotism, because it doesn't require any technologies to be in, and you need to start in something!
- Anarchy, because if you're in it you must be on your way to...
- Republic, which is the all-round best government type!

A 'zero-sum' game is a game in which any move advantaging one player will disadvantage other players by an equivalent amount. In the real world, which is not zero-sum, everyone can win. All our civilizations could become great and powerful and prosperous and happy and live in peace. Everyone would be better off and happy than when we started.

Not so in Civilization III (at least how we're playing it). Our aim is to win. So if another civilization is happy, that is *bad* for us, because we don't want them happy. We want to defeat them.

In such a game, we don't mind if the technological pace goes slower, just as long as we have the advantage. Us having more tech than our opponents is more important than the actual overall tech pace.

People who play for highest score aren't always playing a zero-sum game against their rivals. Certain moves can benefit them *and* benefit their rivals. We are playing a zero-sum game, and we don't care if we win happily and peacefully, or if we crush all our opponents, or if we end up with half our cities nuked, just as long as we win.

And yes, a good starting position combined with good play from the team has led us to make Monarch look a complete cakewalk :goodjob:

-Sirp.

Sirp,
Thanks for the explanations. I feel enlightened.
I have to ponder the "Democracy in Civilization III holds little value" for a little bit. That is just a new concept for me since I always try to get to democracy. But war weariness is definetely a point that makes it difficult and in some cases right undesireable.

Shevek

well, for me nothing but democracy will do. of course, i am a peaceful space ship launcer who usually has nothing but a few defensive units in my cities. that is why im excited about this warmongering talk. it is something i need to learn how to do effectively.

bewareofgnomes: even if you're a peaceful player, democracy usually isn't worth it because of the extra techs you have to research, the anarchy time, and because it makes you vulnerable: if anyone decides to attack you, you are going to have war weariness problems.

-Sirp.

well, who am i to argue with u (im not being sarcastic) but, the gpt is just too much of an incentive. plus, i only really play on monarch, so i cant really talk on emporer or deity.

ok, we haven't heard from CivGeneral in 24 hours since Renata's turn, so he's skipped. Matt_g, you're up now.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
ok, we haven't heard from CivGeneral in 24 hours since Renata's turn, so he's skipped. Matt_g, you're up now.

-Sirp.

Cool! I was just coming here to look up your e-mail and send you my shadow, but since it's now officially my turn, I will post the report etc. Give a few minutes and it'll be here. ;)

Preturn: MM Marathon, Mycenae and Pharso to get Pharso growing again. Research switched to Invention in 4 at +284 gpt.
Investigate Teno for 102 gold. Monty is only getting 10 spt and growing very slowly at +1 fpt. Won’t get to size 10 for 24 turns. Sun Tzu’s due in 37. The moron is running 2 entertainers, and even if he could put them to work has no improved tiles to put them on. :rolleyes: He has 4 pikes as garrison, 3 regulars and 1 vet. There is a barracks in that city. He also has iron, but doesn’t have horses. Quite sad actually. That city should rock, but it’s not happening.
Hmmm who else is building Sun’s and where. Babs in a size 4 city. Not worth investigating.
Ditto with the Russians, only it’s size 3.
Romans in Veii which is size 7. I investigate because he finished the GW here in 330 AD. I don’t know when he started building Sun’s, but he could have been building for over 30 turns. Probably more like twenty something.
Well that was a waste of 96 gold. Sun’s due in 63. He’s only getting 7spt and the city is in a minus food situation with 2 entertainers right now. Has 3 spears as garrison and no barracks.
Edo is size 8 but I won’t investigate it seeing how Toku didn’t even have currency at the beginning of Renata’s turn.
Change Athens to Sun Tzu’s, and switch Thermo to Sistine’s. Due in 12 and 13 respectively.
Move our 2 knights from Tlacopan east, at Sirp’s suggestion. I dial up Julius and tell him to get out and he does this
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-Romewar.jpg
Knight from Sparta kills horseman losing 1 hp.
Knight from Tlaxcala takes out the second horse without suffering any damage.
Our MDI out of Ephesus takes out the warrior losing a hp.
Shuffle some troops around and cover our exposed worker.

IT: No counterattack. Romans move some more troops in.

Turn 1-710 AD: Sparta, knight>knight. Corinth, hoplite>hoplite. Need to get some workers over here. Way to much food (+11 fpt) and not enough shields. Needs a courthouse as well. Argos, hoplite>knight. Herakleia, knight>knight.
Our 2 knights out of Tlaco are able to join the fray and attack this turn. They kill a horse each with 1 of ours losing 2 hp and the other losing none. Vet knight attacks spear/archer on plains and not a cross a river and kills the spear losing 3 hp, whew! Knight just finished in Sparta takes out the archer that spear was guarding without taking any damage.

IT: Caesar moving troops into position to be killed.

Turn 2-720 AD: Drop science 10%, Invention still in 2 at +362gpt. OK, Caesar moved up a stack of 4 troops onto this side of the river. 1 spear, 1 horse and 2 archers, all regulars. Let’s see how we do.
Vet knight kills spear 2>3
Vet knight kills horse 1>3
Vet knight kills archer 2>3
Vet MDI kills last archer 0>3
Another Vet MDI takes out a regular warrior 3>3. Shouldn’t have done this. It was across a river and he was on a hill to boot. Got away with it though. Man I wish I had about 20 knights!

IT: Monty wants to talk. Tells us how nice he is to offer his WM for Chivalry. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
I lose my first unit. Lost a vet MDI to a elite archer 4>4. I will get that redlined sob.

Turn 3-730 AD: Corinth, hoplite>Knight. Pharsa, Bank>Knight. Leader fish against that redlined archer with a elite MDI but no luck with a leader. The sob is dead though and my MDI is still at full health. Moving troops and letting some of them heal. There is a horse south of Ephesus that will attack next turn but I have 2 hoplites there so I am not worried about. I didn’t attack him because everything that could reach him is hurt and he is on a mountain.

IT: Japan and Russia make peace. Caesar moves a spear and 2 warriors in to be butchered.

Turn 4-740 AD: OK, I miscalculated. That horse attacked a wounded Knight but our Knight won without taking anymore damage. Then another one attacked him and he killed that one to and promoted to elite while losing 1 hp. Invention comes in and research is set to Gunpowder. Due in 4 at +298gpt.
Sparta Knight>Knight. The Babs are building Sistine. Man alive I hate overlap! Have to check 3 cities to see which one is using a tile in the Pharso, Mycenae, Herak area. Butcher previously mentioned spear and 2 warriors getting 1 knight promoted to elite. I have a stack consisting of 2 hoplites, 1 sword, 1 MDI, and 2 knights ready to attack Antium next turn. Other knights are only a turn behind them but they are also hurt. Wish we had a barracks in Ephesus. The bank will be done there next turn, but I hope to rush one in Antium.

To be continued......

IT: Caesar doesn’t learn……..

Turn 5 750 AD: Delphi, Uni>Magellan’s. The extra movement when we go overseas to spread greek culture will be very handy.
Argos, Knight>Knight. Herak, Knight>Knight.Ephesus, bank>Knight after the next turn of events.
Halicarnassus, Library>worker. This is vetoable. I almost set it to a courthouse, but I think it’s beyond redemption losing 18 of 19 gold to corruption.
Attack on Antium:
Vet knight vs. reg. spear; win 1>3
Vet knight vs. reg. spear win 0>3
Elite MDI vs. reg. spear, win 2>3 and Antium falls taking 2 gold from Caesars vaults. More importantly he just lost 1 of his 2 luxes. :) There are 4 resistors and it is set to a starvation diet. Set to a barracks. We also got 1 slave.
Attack a straggling horse with a 4hp elite and
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-Pyrrhus.jpg
get Pyrrhus! [dance] :band: He is on his way to Athens to rush Sun Tzu. Athens can then start another wonder. (Smith’s?) Yeah that sounds good.
Clean up another horse and spear that were out in the open. Moving on Lugdunum. Switch Athens to it’s long awaited bank wasting a bunch of shields but what the hey, it will build Sun’s next turn anyways. :lol: Rushed a couple of Knights. Changed Antium to a Library. Will rush after the resistance is quelled.

IT: Monty moves some troops up to the border by Argos. I think he’s feeling frisky.

Turn 6-760 AD: Athens Bank>Sun’s. Sparta Knight>Knight. Resistance quelled in Antium.
Corinth, Knight>Knight. Rhodes Aqueduct>market. Pergamon, Library>harbor. Iroquois start Sun Tzu. I don’t think they will make it. :rotfl:
Pyrrhus rushes Sun Tzu in Athens. I am letting some troops heal and am getting consolidated. I did pillage rome’s horses this turn though, south of Antium. Also killed a archer next to Antium.

IT: nada

Turn 7-770 AD: Athens, Sun’s>worker.[party]
Pharso, Knight>Knight. Are you seeing a trend here? :)
Monty is lucky there is time left on the treaty. Herak, Knight>Knight. Rome must have got Invention. Get the popup saying they are building Leo’s.
Aztec’s are building it as well. Iro’s start Sistine. Rush Library in Antium. Since it’s right next to rome, I want some culture in it. Gunpowder next turn at +416gpt. Moving troops.

IT: nada

Turn 8-780 AD: Archer attacks stack of Knights out side of Lugdunum.
Gunpowder comes in. Set research to Chemistry, due in 4 at +241 gpt.
We have Saltpeter. 2 of them and one is already hooked north of Corinth. We will have three after taking Pisae. Caesar will have none. Monty has 1 SW of Texcoco.
Athens, worker>Smith’s. Due in 18.
Antium library>courthouse. It still has it’s aqueduct. :)
Argos, Knight>musket.
Damn Tzint riots. Forgot it wasn’t on the trade network and rioted at size 3. Road is done this turn so no action needed. Cleanup a horse next to Antuim. Units are healed up and in position to attack Lugdunum and Pisae next turn. Upgrade a Hoplite in Antium to a musket. In fact I upgrade a hopi in each border town to a musket.

IT: Damn, left our lone sword exposed and he got pasted. :o
Our GA ends this turn as well. Lost 120 gpt. Still making 63 with Chemistry in 3.

Turn 9-790 AD: Marathon, market>temple. Vetoable.
Move workers.
The attack on Lugdunum:
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, win 1>3
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, win 1>3
Vet Knight vs. reg. 2hp archer, win 0>2 and Lugdunum is ours! It has 3 resistors, and we got 4 slaves.
The attack on Pisae, which is on a hill BTW:
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, lose 4>1 and he promotes.
Vet MDI vs. reg. spear, wins 2>3
Vet Knight vs.3 hp vet spear, win 0>3 and Pisae falls. Got 2 gold and 1 slave. 2 resistors.
Attacked a horse by Antium and won losing 2 hp on a knight. Another knight tried to cleanup a longbow in forest and died 4 hp to zero. I was wondering when I would get some bad RNG luck.

IT: nada

Turn 10-800 AD: Sparta Knight>Knight. Vetoable. Resistance ends in Lugdunum and Pisae.
I moved a few workers and that’s it. I basically have not done anything this turn, because I didn’t want to tie the next person’s hands. So you have basically a unplayed turn here.
State of the Nation:
Treasury is at 2727, Chemistry due in 2 at +69gpt.
Sistine is due in 4, Smith’s due in 22.
Caesar will give Monarchy, (whoopee) his WM and 13gpt for peace. He will not give a city. I say screw him and let’s take Rome itself, at the least. Personally I think the diplo screen would look fine with his mug gone all together.

Edit: Lugnumdum is roiting because the resistance just ended and they went to work. I can't remember if I fixed it or not.
I am wondering if I should have made an army. I thought about it but I really wanted those instant barracks. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on this Sirp.

Edit #2: The more I think on it the more I realize I really screwed
up. I should have switched Athens to Bachs or Smiths and rushed Sun Tzu somewhere else. Wasn't thinking straight.
That's some bad :smoke: there. Sorry team. :o
Here's a pic.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-800ADScreen.jpg
Here's the game. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-800AD.zip)

:rotfl: there is still a goddy hut :rotfl:

I'm glad to see you pointed out your major piece of :smoke: before I could Matt. I was squirming in my seat, thinking "no no no!" as I read that.

The first rule of Great Leaders is you don't use them in any city which already has a substantial amount of shields! It would have been far better to have used it in another city, such as Sparta.

Other than that your turn was great. You took more cities than I did in my shadow (I took Antium and Pisae). I will have more comments later when I look at the save.

Matt_g <-- Just played
Stormrider <-- UP NOW
Shaesha <-- On deck
Sirp
Renata
CivGeneral (dropped?)

-Sirp.

EDIT: Deleted double post.

A very good turn overall, other than the :smoke: with the misused leader. You completely repelled the Roman attack, and then took the battle to them, capturing three of their cities, denying them of the horse and incense, and also the saltpeter.

Good work rushing the library in Antium. You should have done the same in Pisae, and you should have kept starving both cities. With cultural expansion and starved down to size 1, and garrissoned by a few troops, Antium will have *no* chance of flipping.

Good work also with the musket man upgrade in our border cities. However, I notice we're building a musket man in Argos. Why? I virtually never build musket men, and we especially shouldn't as Greece, since we have plenty of hoplites lying around. They cost almost as much as knights, and can do so little in comparison. Especially when it's doubtful we'll be on the defensive again, far better only to get musket men by upgrading and to build knights.

Herekleia has a tax man running. Why on earth is this?

I agree that the four lake cities are kinda frustrating to manage, but it's something that has to be done. Also, we're underdeveloped in some areas. Argos has citizens working on two unimproved hills. That's 4 shields per turn being wasted right there.

Now, do you notice how we're already down to a +69gpt surplus, with the ending of our golden age, and the increase in tech prices? It'd have been good if we could have saved a little more cash. We have 2727 in our coffers. Techs are going to get more expensive, and our surplus is going to become a deficit soon, probably before the Industrial Age, if we keep doing 4 turn research, which is precisely what we want to do.

It would be excellent if our coffers were large enough to guarantee 4 turn research from here on out, but they're not quite that full.

I'm really divided as to whether we should try to build every Wonder, or if we should go all-out for knights (and then cavalry) and hope to get them through Great Leaders. I'm leaning toward the latter approach. Tying up our cities with so many Wonders being built will greatly lessen our ability to build troops. We said we were going to do some warmongering, so let's warmonger! I suggest to Stormrider that Sistine's goes ahead, while Smith's is cancelled, and changed for knights. Lots of knights. I'm not sure about Delphi and Magellan's. We could keep building that since it is a good Wonder for us to have.

I'm also not sure how long we want to prosecute this war with Rome for. They look pretty gassed, so we might be able to finish them completely now. Certainly we should take Hispalis, and likely push on to Rome and Pompeii too. That mountain between Rome and Antium is a tactical point which you can camp on before attacking, Stormrider.

Getting Byzantium and Brundisium - the cities on the island - for peace would be a good option, but perhaps we'll just put Rome to rest now. See how things go.

Good luck Stormrider!

-Sirp.

Got it. Should post tonight...

Originally posted by Sirp
A very good turn overall, other than the :smoke: with the misused leader.
Thanks. :) On the leader, when I realized what a bonehead move I had pulled, I spent about 15 minutes :wallbash: then went and :vomit:
I virtually never build musket men, and we especially shouldn't as Greece, since we have plenty of hoplites lying around. They cost almost as much as knights, and can do so little in comparison.
So you go straight from pikes to rifles with the occassional upgrade to muskets eh? Good to know. I have always built muskets. One more thing I have learned. :D

Herekleia has a tax man running. Why on earth is this? Hmmm, I hadn't caught this. It must have grown and not had a free tile put the citizen on. I tend to neglect my city management when I am warring. Very bad habit, I know.

Now, do you notice how we're already down to a +69gpt surplus, with the ending of our golden age, and the increase in tech prices? It'd have been good if we could have saved a little more cash. We have 2727 in our coffers.
Yeah, I went a little overboard rushing partially completed military. We should have had at least 3400 to 3600 in the bank. To bad Wall Street is now in the Industrial era. That would really help, but I must admit, it is more realistic where it is now.
I'm really divided as to whether we should try to build every Wonder, or if we should go all-out for knights (and then cavalry) and hope to get them through Great Leaders. I'm leaning toward the latter approach.
JMO, but I agree. A domination victory should be fairly quick and easy to achieve.

Orignaly posted by Sirp
Yes, CivGeneral is up now, although he hasn't been around, so I'm not sure if he's awol. So Matt_g, if you'd like, you are welcome to play a shadow, and if CG doesn't show up it can count as the real thing. If he does show up, then I'll still comment on your turn as a shadow.

Wait, I am here :eek:. I have not droped. I am still here. Please
let me get to the game. Sorry about the Late Reply since I had to take care of a Situation in the MSDG (Dont ask, its personal)

ok, we haven't heard from CivGeneral in 24 hours since Renata's turn, so he's skipped. Matt_g, you're up now.

Nooooooo, Ive got the save, Ive Got the save. Sorry for the Late delay

Orignaly posted by Stormrider
Got it. Should post tonight...

:aargh: Nooooooooooooo :wallbash: :wallbash:. :sad: Well Ive learned my lesson, Always check this Thread, I just hope that I can get a Second chance and, if it is possible, someone switch positions with me so I can get to play.

Sirp:
Just saw your post in the 'To old to play" thread. You're only 22 eh? I would have guessed you were older than that. Of course that could be because it feels wierd to realize I am learning Civ from someone who is young enough to be my son. :D :rotfl:

Not a knock, not by any means. If I had been playing for 10 years like you have, I wouldn't need this TDG. I have had the game for about a year but only played 2 or 3 games at first. Then RL got to be a bear and I didn't touch it for almost 8 months. Just picked it up again a couple of months ago and this SG is probably my 8th game overall.
BTW I am 42.

Cheers,
Matt

Originally Posted by CivGeneral
Wait, I am here . I have not droped. I am still here. Please
let me get to the game. Sorry about the Late Reply since I had to take care of a Situation in the MSDG (Dont ask, its personal)


I'm sorry, but the rule is 24 hours to say "I got it", and then 48 hours to play. The idea of playing a succession game, and especially a training day game is that you're interested enough in the game to follow it closely. If you don't post within 24 hours of the previous turn, and especially if you haven't posted since your last turn, well you're going to be skipped, especially when there are other players who are ready to go.

If you know that you might not be around, let us know in advance and you'll get special consideration. Renata took longer than 48 hours (I think) to play her last turn, but it was fine because she let us know in advance that that was the situation.

-Sirp.

:sad: This Time I will Follow it Closely. Sorry :sad:. I guess I dont get Special Consideration :(.

Yeah I missed by a couple of hours. Would've been on time if my boss hadn't decided to make me do actual work on Thursday, but you know how these things go. :p

Speaking of missing turns and such - I may have to skip the next turn as well (should be the last time) if it comes up before Wednesday. As usual, will keep you all updated.

Renata

Originally posted by Matt_g
Just saw your post in the 'To old to play" thread. You're only 22 eh? I would have guessed you were older than that. Of course that could be because it feels wierd to realize I am learning Civ from someone who is young enough to be my son.


Well thanks; I find it gratifying to be recognized to be good at a game that is commonly played by people many years older than me. I haven't exactly been playing it for ten years straight btw, I barely even touched Civilization II at all, after being burnt out on Civilization I.


Originally posted by CivGeneral
This Time I will Follow it Closely. Sorry . I guess I dont get Special Consideration .


I'm afraid you don't. I always try to treat everyone playing the same.


Originally posted by Renata
Yeah I missed by a couple of hours. Would've been on time if my boss hadn't decided to make me do actual work on Thursday, but you know how these things go.


Yeah these bosses really get unreasonable sometimes don't they? You'd think they were paying us or something :)

Being a computer programmer with a non-technical boss is great. He never has a clue if I've done any work or not :)


Speaking of missing turns and such - I may have to skip the next turn as well (should be the last time) if it comes up before Wednesday. As usual, will keep you all updated.


Well I think you're just afraid of getting :whipped:

Let us know how it turns out :)

-Sirp.

Antisipates a Quiz or a Stragity lesson to take his mind of of the missing 10 turns

Sirp, Do you have any Stragity Lesson on say, How to reach and maintain a positive Gold per Turn income :).

CivGeneral: I suggest you read this thread to get advice on most things. However, I would suggest you're asking the wrong question, assuming that a positive gold per turn income was a good idea. If you read early on in the game, you will see that that's not always a goal.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Matt_g
So you go straight from pikes to rifles with the occassional upgrade to muskets eh? Good to know. I have always built muskets. One more thing I have learned.


Yep, I think musketmen are *way* overpriced for the benefit they provide. See this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=45662) for my opinion on them.

It goes even more for the Greeks. 20 shields for a unit with 3 defense, or 60 shields for one with 4 defense? Hmm....

-Sirp.

Before I post my turn.

Once you get gunpowder, hoplites are no longer available. Therefore do not whip or weed me for building muskets- I just did not have enough hoplites to garrison the entire Roman Empire.

Oh yeah, I opened a 2 liter bottle of whoop-@ss on Rome.

As you can tell from the title, I accidentally conquered the mainland Roman empire.


0) 800 AD

Starve Antium, Knight kill horse - no dmg, Caesars Bane (1 dmg) - kill longbow

Lugdunum - move 4 knights to mtn outside Hispalis

Argos - switch musket to knight
heraklia - no more taxman
Athens switch to knight

Mobilize from Pisae towards Rome
move workers towards argos hills

IT) We lost our supply of ivory?
Built lots of knights. Set for more knights and muskets to defend new holdings
Rome sorties longbow / horse into our empire

1) 810 AD

Take hispalis with knights - only one wounded (no resistance). starve Roman cities
Kill longbow with leftover knight from hispalis assault
Leaderfish (nothing) elite mi ->kills roman horse
move many knights towards rome
workers work
Left Corinth's new knight fortified outside of Corinth in case of Bab aggression (I have had many bad experiences with them in the past)

Rome will offer 17gpt and monarchy for peace - not yet my Latin friend

IT) Chemistry -> Metalurgy - if we are warmongers, let's research war (I usually would have gone for physics) both at 4

2) 820 AD

ROME falls - 3gp 3 resistors --> Ravenna new roman capital
1st Knight 3 dmg -> kills spear
2nd Knight 2 dmg -> kills spear
3rd Knight 2 dmg -> kills spear
4th Knight dies -> redlines last spear
5th Knight 0 dmg -> kills spear
Pompeii falls with last 2 knights from rome campaign. 1 Resistor
Caesars bane moves up to capture 2 roman workers outside of pompeii
Set rome/pompeii for libararies

IT) Build infrastructure - more infrastructure / knights

3) 830 AD

Leaderfish against roman horse - horse killed, no leader
Ready knights for assault on Neapolis.
Rome will still not give up more than one of the island cities.

IT Rome / Pompeii stop resistance - put on population diet. Everyone starts Leo's. We finish Sistine in Athens - set to Smith (can change)


4) 840 AD

Take Neapolis - 2 resistors
1st Knight 2 dmg, now elite -> kills spear
2nd Knight 0 dmg -> kills spear
3rd Knight 0 dmg -> kills Longbow

Rest of Knights sent to attack Ravenna next turn
Rome will still not give up more than one of the island cities

IT Roman Longbow from Ravenna redlines vet knight

5) 850 AD

Realized I got a little too caught up in warmongering. I rushed libararies in all newly

captureed roman cities

Take Ravenna - 3 resistors
1st E Knight 0 dmg, kills spear
2nd E Knight (3/5) goes down to 1/5 retreats
3rd Knight 0 dmg -> kills spear

Take Veii (and Great Wall)- 2 resistors
1st Knight 2 dmg -> kills spear
2nd Knight 1 dmg -> kills spear
3rd Knight 0 dmg -> kills spear

IT) Metallurgy -> Mil Tradition in 4 and making our new found Great Wall obsolete


6) 860 AD

Take Cumae - 2 resistors
1st Knight 3 dmg retreats (no damage to spear)
2nd Knight 2 dmg -> kills spear
3rd Knight Caesar's Bane -> kills spear

Switch Athens to Bach as we have close to 2 dozen knights
After libraries are built, I have switched roman territories to muskets for defense, except for a Caravel to take roman island cities
All Roman offense knights are resting

Rome is done for - we can have them off the map in 5-6 turns.

7) 870 AD

Move forces to prepare for taking of virconium
War weariness - up lux to 10%, science down by 10% - Mil Trad in 4
rush caravel and move 2 Knights / 1 MI to load next turn

IT Roman longbow redlines vet knight outside of Virc. Sparta musket -> Cannon

8) 880 AD

Still rushing libraries in newly pacified roman cities.
Virc taken / 2 workers captured
1st Knight 3 dmg retreats (no damage to spear)
2nd Knight killed
3rd Knight (3 dmg) -> Kills spear
4th Knight (1 dmg) -> kills spear

Assault on Lutitia fails (1 knight redlined and one spear killed)
Unload troops next to Byzantium from caravel

IT) Hispalis culture expands, pops hut on roman island and Barbs show up - ain't life funny that way?

9) 890 AD

Lutitia taken - Rome off mainland - worker taken. No one died (Greek that is)

Byzantium assault fails - Spear / Longbow killed for them, our MI dies, but both knights are now Elite.

IT) 2 Roman galleys off of our West coast!!

10) 900 AD

Took Byzantium
3 Knights ready to load caravel to get last roman city


Summary)

Rome. What else can I say? I originally was going to take a city or two. However, with knights vs. spears (no dreaded legions), Rome fell apart like a cheap suit. I hope no one minds, but I was left so many knights, I could not stop my self from the conquest of Rome. They lost 10 cities and 20-30 units, we lost 2 knights and a MI

It was a very disappointing war in terms of leaders (none). Plus only a few units went elite
3 Knights ready to load caravel to get last roman city. Rome will make peace for all of his gold, Monarchy, maps, etc..

I spent about a 1000 gp (should make some up this turn) to rush libraries in roman cities.

* 2 knights fortified outside corinth as Bab busters
* 2 Knights in range of west coast if romans in galleys land
* Workers on iron by sparta can mine next turn
* Northern jungle all but cleared.
* Irrigation brought up into the Choke province.

Need defense in Rome province and this will free up some knights to take out the Aztecs (or Babs)

Mil Trad next turn - DO NOT FORGET TO ADJUST SLIDER.

I probably did not need 10% lux, but I hate having to trade 2 lux to get 1.

Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SP4-900AD.zip)

Originally posted by Stormrider
Oh yeah, I opened a 2 liter bottle of whoop-@ss on Rome.

Awesome! Can't wait to read about it. :D

Originally posted by Stormrider
I hope no one minds, but I was left so many knights, I could not stop my self from the conquest of Rome.
I was hoping you would feel that way. :satan:
Sounds like an awesome turn StormRider! :goodjob:
Edit: When you get the save uploaded, I think I might play a shadow of Shaesha's turn and do some ummm..... *cough* ummm..... testing, yeah that's the word, on Monty. :mwaha:

I just attached the game file to my turn write-up

Stormrider

Stormrider, great work taking out Rome! :goodjob:

I noticed you didn't take Lutetia on your first turn of attacking it. You should always try to take a city on the first turn of attacking; doing otherwise is costly and indicates you didn't take enough troops along and/or were impatient (and maybe just unlucky).

The other thing you did wrong was having our luxuries at 10%. Considering our empire is twice as big as anyone else's, it's no wonder that they want alot to do a trade with us. Send them gpt, lots of luxuries, or even iron or horses! We'll probably want an ally on the other continent, so make one by making them a trading partner. The Iroquois could do with some iron, and the luxuries they'll give us in exchange will help us immensely. Then we can sign them to a military alliance against one of the other civs there and start a war fueled by our iron supplies.

It's costing us over 70gpt to have luxuries at 10%.

I'm really not sure about switching Athens over. When you're going for a Domination/Conquest victory, you really can't have too many knights :)

If we had 30+ cavalry, we could prosecute a war against both Babylon and Azteca simultaneously. But, the Wonder will help us alot too.

Good turn though; very well done :)

-Sirp.

Got it!

I will do it when I get home from work =o)

Thanks
Shaesha

I should Get ready for my next Turn :). THis Time I will not miss it :D

CivGeneral: Indeed you should, especially since I'm planning to swap your position with Renata's this round, since Renata has let me know that she will be unlikely to be able to play before Wednesday.

-Sirp.

900 AD - preturn - Military Tradition > Physics
Sparta Cannon > Cavalry
Argos Cavalry > Cavalry
Lutetia Library > Temple
Miletos Library > Temple

910AD
Upgraded all knights to cavalry

IT
Tlacopan Temple > Aqueduct
Byzantinium riots

920AD
Trade Japan Theology and Incense for Ivory
The Ottomans want Theology and gunpowder for dyes... I can't get them down...
I *politely* decline
I trade Russia Incense, Horses, Theology for Silks and Gems
Trade Iroquois Wines and Iron for Dyes
Move lux slider to zero and research to 70% -12gpt.
I can't believe I forgot to do all this on my first turn!
Got rid of al entertainers and the tax collector

IT
Hammurabi is demanding gunpowder - I don't think so...
Rhodes Marketplace > Temple

930AD
I attack the last Roman city and lose a knight.
Got rid of the 2 barbs by Brandisium (sp)


IT
Rome Riots <sighs>
Malinalco Marketplace > Courthouse


940AD - Brundisium is ours!


IT
Physics> Magnetism
Pharsalos University > Cavalry
Herakleia Cavalry > Cavalry

950AD
Mostly movin workers around

IT
We trade world maps with the Iroquois
Sparta Cavalry > Cavalry
Corinth Cathedral > Cavalry
Ephesus Cavalry > Cavalry

960AD
Blah

IT
Argos Cavalry > Cavalry

970AD
Blah

IT
Thessalonica Marketplace > Univercity


980AD
Still just having workers work on unimproved tiles

IT
Trade Territory maps with Russia
Magnetism > Theory ofo Gravity
Viroconium is rioting :(

990AD
More boring work :(

IT
Tlaxcala
Marketplace > Aqueduct

1000AD
Just more of the same!

I didn't start any wars :P But CivGeneral you are set up if that is what you
want... we have cavalry everywhere!

Good Luck!

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1000AD.zip)

I got it.

Good turn Shaesha, you're getting much much better :)

You didn't go to war yourself, but you prepared us for it nicely. I'm trying to think of some suggestions here, but other than the normal civil-disorder-yada-yada thing I can't think of anything :goodjob:

-Sirp.

Ohh, Cavalry units :D. Sirp, please let me know when it is time to declare war on an AI civ :).

I would imagine anyone may go to war whenever they feel the urge. :) Who's up now? Sirp?

Renata

(IT) 1000AD: ok time to go after these Babylonians. They have the Pyramids, they have gunpowder, and they have a source of saltpeter. I rush a galleon in Rhodes, so I can land cavalry on the saltpeter on the first turn of hostilities.

Oh, one bad move Shaesha, you moved the galleon that transported the knights across to Brundisium island half way across the world. The knights want to get off the island, and have no ships to take them!

Hmm...these Aztecs could also use some smacking about. I investigate Tenochtitlan. It's defended by four pikemen, and...is 4 turns from finishing Leonardo's Workshop. I make plans which should be obvious to all :)

Oh and yes, I switch Athens and Thermopylae JS Bach's <---> Smith's, since I want Smith's completed first, as we are about as happy as we could be already.

(1) 1010AD: I turn the "Always Build Previously Built Unit" option on. When you're prosecuting lots of war and you have a big empire, this is a must-have switch to turn on, since you generally want each city to churn out the same type of unit over and over.

I investigate the Babylonian defenses. If there's one thing you should do before attacking it's this. Having the intelligence gives you a *great* advantage.

Ur is size 5 with two spears, and is next to the only Babylonian sources of saltpeter and iron. It has a coastal mountain next to it. 'nuff said.

Nippur one pike, one spear, border city.

Babylon has 5 pikes defending it. We'll go for a mass assault there.

Troops keep massing, ready for the assault, oh yeah Shaesha that's another thing you could have done: moved the cavalry all back from Rome for me.

(2) 1020AD: next turn, it begins.

(3) 1030AD: we move into the Industrial Age. Now *this* is where we want lots of money in our coffers. Researching Steam Power at max requires us to lose almost 250gpt.

War declared on Babylon. Galleon sails in and 4 cavalry land next to Ur.

I start recalling workers to Athens in anticipation of rails.

(4) 1040AD: Oh, I just noticed: We didn't actually wipe the Romans out. They live on a boat now or something? Anyhow we give Julius a peace treaty in exchange for WM, Monarchy, and Printing Press. (They wasted beakers researching that??)

The Aztecs complete Leonardo's Workshop. We declare war immediately and gee it took seven of the eight cavalry I had massed to take Tenochtitlan, but we did take it. :hammer: that almost felt cruel. Almost.

We also capture Ur from the Babylonians, and guess what? They have knights! Not that they can build em anymore :)

(5) 1050AD: I massed a whole heap of cavalry on hills outside of Babylon, and the Babylonians decide to counter-attack with their knights. Three knights attack, one knight wins, and is immediately cleaned up next turn. The Aztecs also want to do the counter-attack thing, but their units are slower moving.

We capture Babylon and get the Pyramids :hammer:

(6) 1060AD: Steam Power -> Industrialization

We get Smith's *and* Magellan's this turn. Athens is set to build Newton's.

Gee, Ur is an insanely resource-rich city, having coal near it as well! It can build the iron works. But.....if Athens were one tile north-west it could build them. Drat!

Ok, I'm tired and I want to go to bed, but I want to finish my turn. :)

So, no more report, and the state of the game might be slightly sloppy. :)

However, a few words describe the rest of my turn:

Aztecs...Babylon...Knife through butter. :hammer:

-Sirp.

Renata is up now but she might want to switch turns with CivGeneral, which is fine by me. So basically what I'm going to say is first to say "I got it" between CivGeneral and Renata gets to play first. I hope that works out ok.

Oh and if you go first CivGeneral, make sure you get a few ships - not too many though - with some riflemen, a settler, and some cavalry on them. I've promised Renata some beachhead establishment :)

more random notes...we have a great leader. Industrialization in one turn. Use the leader to build the Universal Suffrage, and do NOT build it in Themopylae or Athens.

Oh yeah I was kinda going nuts with an attack-attack-attack mentality, even attacking with wounded cavalry where I thought I could win. My successor might like to withdraw to cities (all of which have barracks now with Sun Tzu's), for a turn to recuperate before going forward again. I'd tell you not to let the Babs win with a bowman and generate a Golden Age, but umm...I don't think that's going to matter much.

Good luck!

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SP4-1100AD.zip)

Actually, I didn't move the Galleon :P I moved the Caravel. I guess I didn't feel that we would want to leave the cities unprotected. And I sent the Caravel on it's ways because there were 2 or 3 barbarian galleons up by Rhodes.

Anyway, that was my thought process :)

Thanks!
Shaesha

Definitely CivGen should take it. I'm way too busy and won't be able to play until v late Wednesday at the earliest. Thursday is more realistic. So if CG's turns go fast you may want to skip me altogether. Up to you.

As to the beachhead thingie ... :eek: .

<-- stinks at beachheads, just ask Cracker and Creepster who got an up close and personal look at two of my less spectacularly successful attempts while trying to fix crash issues in my submission for this month's GOTM :) (but on the other hand at least it'll be cavs and riflemen instead of the threatened swords ... )

JMO, but I don't think we should skip Renata.
I don't think you would get another turn if we do Renata. I have 10 dollars here that says Sirp has played his last turn if there aren't any skips. :lol:
Take out 2 others Civs across the way and rush librarys and it's over. :hammer:

Edit:
BTW Sirp, did you get the e-mail I sent you? I just want to make sure I had the right address. :)

Hmmm .. well I've yet to check how much of Babylon and Aztec territory Sirp left for CG to play with. :)

But you may be right. Assuming he can knock out the last pitiful remnants *and* assemble a decent invasion force (I want multiple galleons, mind you, CG, none of this 'one galleon, one settler one rifleman and one cav garbage' :p ) on his turn (and I have every faith in you, CG), that'll leave us needing probably one oversea civ's territory plus part of another's to reach domination.

So which ones? Iroquois and Japanese are closest but Carthage is by far the weakest. Japanese being isolated is nice in one way (no chance of them bringing in anyone else to any decent effect) but bad in another (yet more shipping after the deed is done, no possibility of vulturing off allies' gains).

Renata

Well, how long this is going to go on for depends heavily on how well we balance navy/army. Getting to Replaceable Parts and the associated infantry/artillery along with transports would help us alot.

I'm not sure who we could go for. Having the Iroquois as an ally sounds kinda good to me, but they are the closest target.

Ok CivGeneral, you are UP NOW.

Matt_g: I got your email and replied to it; didn't you get my reply?

Good luck CivGeneral!

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Matt_g: I got your email and replied to it; didn't you get my reply?

Sure didn't. That's wierd. If your so inclined, just post a city name. ;)

Matt, my reply was actually a treatise on why I don't think that capital-moving is a good idea in most situations and especially not that late in the game.

I have never moved my capital, ever, in any version of Civilization. (hmmm...I might tell a lie there, maybe in Civ1 when I didn't know what building a palace did).

But, you are very well set to win that game. :goodjob:

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp

Ok CivGeneral, you are UP NOW.

Matt_g: I got your email and replied to it; didn't you get my reply?

Good luck CivGeneral!


Ok, This is my Ive Got it post :D

Go get em CivGeneral :hammer:

Originally posted by Sirp
Go get em CivGeneral :hammer:

THanks Sirp :D. I hope that My RNG is feeling Lucky Today :).

RNG? We're not asking you to launch a desperate attack with a hastily slapped together army of archers here! The time when the Greeks needed luck has long past.

Even if the RNG goes badly against you, I'm still expecting you to massacre them for us :)

-Sirp.

what exactly is a "RNG"

Originally posted by Sirp
However, a few words describe the rest of my turn:

Aztecs...Babylon...Knife through butter. :hammer:

-Sirp.

I just took a look at the save and it took me about 5 minutes to stop :rotfl:
Just in case you don't have time to look at the save Renata, Monty is down to 2 cities and the Hammer has 4.

Sirp, you are a warmonger extraordinaire. :worshp: :goodjob:

Originally posted by bewareofgnomes
what exactly is a "RNG"

Random Number Generator

Now that I've got a little more time, I might go into a little more detail as to the strategy I used on my turn. Investigating the enemy cities, I saw that they didn't have much in the way of defense, that they could be overrun without too much trouble. The attack against Rome had to be slightly measured, but this would be a rush. Seeing the Aztecs were just turns away from Leonardo's was just too good to be true. Taking Tenochtitlan the same turn it was built was just brutal.

If your enemy is on the coast, even if you're connected to them by land, eyeing coastal targets before a war is always a good idea. Attacking Ur denied them of their iron and saltpeter very quickly, and I didn't have to face a musket man for the entire war. Hammu's counter-punch came with his knights, but once they were dispatched, I suspected that he would be completely gassed: I started rushing cavalry at every city. Freshly taken cities would be left undefended, as the cavalry moved on to the next target. Every nearby cavalry would be mustered for attack after attack. Injured 3/5 elite cavalry would attack a spearman, 2/5 cavalry would attack a longbowman. Usually it's good to take a careful, measured approach to warfare, but on this occasion I had smelt blood, and was determined to inflict a rapid knock-out blow.

Usually at this stage of the game I don't leave every conquered city defended: riflemen and cavalry are too expensive to leave them doing garrison duty in each and every far-flung colony. For that reason much of former Rome is now unguarded, and the same with Azteca and Babylonia. Sure, someone could attack one of our unguarded cities. I just hope they think it was worth it when our cavalry rides into their capital in retaliation.

-Sirp.

CivGeneral's 10 Turns

Turn 0, 1100AD, Pre turn Annalysis

Moving a couple of units that has not already moved
CivGeneral wished we had railroads so he can apply a stragity that he just leadrned

Constructing the railroad

CivGeneral's Comment: Appetently our Railroad network is still in its infancy, I am building up our rail network to crush the Babs (Hmm sounds Familiar huh CT ;) )

Turn 1, 1110AD

The Ottomans Demand us to give him wines, I renegotiated and had him gave us his TM

Science: Republic -> The Corporation

Thessalonica: University -> Rifle
Rhodes: Temple -> Rifle
Troy: Court -> Settler

Rushbuilt the US (Universal Suffarage) in Uruk

Attacked Sippar and captured the city :D
Attacked Kish and Captured the city :D

Turn 2,1120AD

Antium: Temple -> Factory
Popeii: Market -> Court
Uruk: US -> Library

Ugh, Lagash Fliped to the Babs >_<, They will pay for that :mad:. Recaptured the city.

Captured Shuruppak

hehe, Apperently my RNG has gave my Cavalry units some Shotguns in there inventory

Turn 3, 1130AD

Thermopylae has built the JS Bach
Thermopylae: JS -> Factory

Lowered the Science rate to get a +gpt

Attacked Atzcapotzalco and captured it

Turn 4, 1140AD

CivGeneral realized he is becoming more of a Warmonger

Attacked Zariqum and Captured it. May the Civilization of the Babylonians Go to the History books :hammer: (hehe, Ive helped Destroy the Babs in the Civ3 DG :D)

Turn 5, 1150AD

Sci: The Corp -> Electricity (I want to get to Replaceable parts CivGeneral Salivates)

Checking trade deals

Turn 6, 1160AD

Tons of WLTKD (We Love the "King" Day)

Turn 7, 1170AD

Attacked Tula and Captured it. May the Civilization of the Aztecs.. Huh, what a munute, the Aztecs are hiding some where (Grr, I hope they did not sliped a Settler)

Reading up the Transports for a Beach head and taking care of Domestic Builds

Turn 8, 1180AD

Still building Rail Connections and Getting the Beachhead units ready

Turn 9, 1190AD

The Hunt for the Aztecs has begun (Searching all Unexplored Territories for them)

Turn 10, 1200AD

Athens: Neuton University -> Stock Exchange

Still Building rail Network and sending units to the boats.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp4-1200AD.zip)

Originally posted by CivGeneral
CivGeneral's 10 Turns

Turn 0, 1100AD, Pre turn Annalysis

Moving a couple of units that has not already moved
CivGeneral wished we had railroads so he can apply a stragity that he just leadrned

Constructing the railroad

CivGeneral's Comment: Appetently our Railroad network is still in its infancy, I am building up our rail network to crush the Babs (Hmm sounds Familiar huh CT ;) )

I left you with over 20 cavalry, with the Aztecs and Babylonians having a handful of cities between them, guarded primarily by spearmen, and you're worried about getting our rail network online in order to attack? Crush them now!

The Ottomans Demand us to give him wines, I renegotiated and had him gave us his TM
*blink* You gave them wines for their territory map? If anyone threatens us at this stage, we tell them where to stick it!
Science: Republic -> The Corporation
You should have gone straight for Replaceable Parts. We don't need the money from stock exchanges.
Thessalonica: University -> Rifle
Rhodes: Temple -> Rifle
Troy: Court -> Settler
hmm...why am I not seeing the mass switchover to factories that one would expect when we've just discovered Industrialization? The Settler in Troy is a good move, but the rest isn't.
Rushbuilt the US (Universal Suffarage) in Uruk
Good :)
Attacked Sippar and captured the city :D
Attacked Kish and Captured the city :D

Turn 2,1120AD

Antium: Temple -> Factory
Popeii: Market -> Court
Uruk: US -> Library

Ugh, Lagash Fliped to the Babs >_<, They will pay for that :mad:. Recaptured the city.

Captured Shuruppak

hehe, Apperently my RNG has gave my Cavalry units some Shotguns in there inventory

Turn 3, 1130AD

Thermopylae has built the JS Bach
Thermopylae: JS -> Factory
Well at least you're building one factory there! How about our other military-producing cities? Change them all to factories!
Lowered the Science rate to get a +gpt

Attacked Atzcapotzalco and captured it

Turn 4, 1140AD

CivGeneral realized he is becoming more of a Warmonger

Attacked Zariqum and Captured it. May the Civilization of the Babylonians Go to the History books :hammer: (hehe, Ive helped Destroy the Babs in the Civ3 DG :D)
Oh so we didn't need those rails after all? :)
Turn 5, 1150AD

Sci: The Corp -> Electricity (I want to get to Replaceable parts CivGeneral Salivates)
Good to go for RP, but this should have been done earlier. RP is a high priority tech in the IA, as it gives good military units, and doubling worker speeds is a huge advantage.
Checking trade deals

Turn 6, 1160AD

Tons of WLTKD (We Love the "King" Day)

Turn 7, 1170AD

Attacked Tula and Captured it. May the Civilization of the Aztecs.. Huh, what a munute, the Aztecs are hiding some where (Grr, I hope they did not sliped a Settler)
Who cares? Just make peace with them, and if they want they can live on boats forever. Same as the Romans.
Reading up the Transports for a Beach head and taking care of Domestic Builds
Good work.






The Hunt for the Aztecs has begun (Searching all Unexplored Territories for them)

Forget them! They're not worth any time or effort. Make peace and go after one of our *real* enemies.

Athens: Neuton University -> Stock Exchange
This should be a factory! Factories are the *first* priority in the industrial age. Once we have a factory and rails around the city, it'll be able to build a stock exchange in no time, and then pump out military units real fast.

-Sirp.
The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp4-1200AD.zip) [/QUOTE]

I may comment more on CivGeneral's turn when I've actually seen the save.

Renata, you're up. You have 24 hours to "I got it", and then 48 hours to play. If you can't make it within this timespan, then please post a skip and it'll be Matt_g's turn.

-Sirp.

Insomnia is such a lovely thing. :rolleyes:

'got it', but I won't be conscious enough to play until Thursday night, as previously planned. That's about 40 hours from now. :)

Renata

@Sirp - Can you give me some tips on how to be aware and aware of the suroundings in a civ3 Environment (This is for improving my DP Skills in the Demogame, Dont ask CT already harped on me about it and its quite personal :( )

Thanks,
CivGeneral

@Sirp - Can you give me some tips on how to be aware and aware of the suroundings in a civ3 Environment (This is for improving my DP Skills in the Demogame, Dont ask CT already harped on me about it and its quite personal )


I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to the "civ3 Environment"

-Sirp.

I deleted my turn summary --- oops.

Anyway, this should give you an idea what was accomplished.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp41275stregis.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp41275artesal.jpg

And the minimap -

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp41275adminimap.jpg

I'll write up a summary for the next post.

Renata

Well, well well. The first thing I thought when I saw the map was: where'd everybody go? :p Very nice job, everybody. The second thing I thought (when I noticed how many ships we had - 2 galleons, a galley and a caravel) and where they were (mostly a loooong way from where I needed them to be) was :cry: I'm gonna miss the wars again!

But I got to do a little butt-kicking on Hiawatha after all, so I'm happy. :)

Let's see, what do I remember.

- Lots and lots of worker movement. I built a bunch, too, and have yet more building. Our military railnet on the home continent is all-but complete, so the half-dozen or so cavs I have playing zone defense against a couple of curious Japanese and Iroquois galleys can now be recalled for offense if Matt wishes. (One note: the southern ex-Roman island still only has one military unit (a knight) on it, so that should be kept an eye on.) Workers were in the process of being recalled to our core cities to complete rails and mountain mining there. Lots still to do.

- Library-rushing on the home continent is complete, and the last border expansions there should happen in the next couple of turns.

- Research is *off*. I went for replaceable parts in five turns for the worker-rate bonus, but I can't think of anything else we could possibly need to get domination, so went to max cash after that.

- A few turns in I got trade embargoes vs the Iroquois from the Ottomans and the Russians (Japan wouldn't cooperate, and is probably selling horses). I declared war on turn 9. The Iroquois have no iron, and with the loss of St. Regis, no saltpeter either. Salamanca was defended by four muskets (lost 2 cav taking it), but the other two cities had a total of a pike and 3 spearmen and there shouldn't be many more muskets around. Their offense is limited to a few longbows and mounted warriors, I think; I saw two knights the first interturn but one suicided against Salamanca and the other against an Ottoman unit. (I bribed the Ottomans into an alliance with our furs.) I razed and replaced Tonawanda to give us a 100% sure port, but haven't bothered to build any more settlers to date - our culture is so far ahead of any of the other civs' that flips should be unlikely. (If I turn out to be wrong on this point and anyone loses several units to a flip, feel free to smack me. :D )

- I built factories in the core cities, about four of which are complete. I'm not sure whether or not this will turn out to be worthwhile in the long run. In any case, there are still nearly 20 cav on the home continent which can be shipped out as soon as the galleons get back (one is already in Akkad? on the west coast if anyone wants to ship units that way), and three or four cities are now set to build cav in 2-3 turns each with several more factories near completion (some can be rushed now that we have the cash flow).

- Russia is significantly weaker than Japan or the Ottomans and our lux deal with them runs out in five turns. They'd probably be the easiest next target once the Iroquois are gone.

- There are a few coastal cities in the west which still have no defense (I did ship internal defensive units to the coast to cover most of those cities.) and there was a Japanese galley sniffing around a few turns ago. Just something to keep in mind.

That's all I can think of - have fun, Matt. :) I very much doubt that this game will get back to me, so in the case that it doesn't, thanks everyone for sharing the game, it was great fun. :) And thanks Sirp for running this. You're going to have to work on my invasion skills another time, though; this time the AI are just too pitiful to worry about much more than pure offense.

Cheers, all!

Renata

the game - 1275 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SP4-1275AD.zip)

Great turn Renata :goodjob:

I didn't think you'd get to see much action either, but you did manage some :)

True, our opponents are dwarfed by our power, but the logistics of an invasion of another continent can always be difficult, yet you handled it well.

Very good decision in turning off research, you realized it's not going to benefit us anymore. Transports would be nice, and we'd go for them if they were one tech away, but three techs away is too far.

Instead we can use 700gpt to help finish the game off quick. It costs around 320 gold to rush a cavalry if there is already at least one shield in the box, so let's do lots o