This is a Training Day Game for players who can win on Warlord or Regent, but who start to find themselves struggling on levels above Regent. This game will be played on Monarch level, and hopefully by the end of it, participants will have developed the skills to win consistently on Monarch, and be ready to move up to Emperor.

I will aim to teach players good solid skills, but not to rely on any crutches, such as certain wonders, or civilization abilities. If you want to learn about ICS or RoP rapes, this isn't the place for you...

Anyone who has won on Warlord or Regent at least once, either solo or in a succession game, is ready for this game, and is welcome to join. Each player will play their round, giving a report of each turn, and then I will offer a critique on what they did and advice on how to do better. I will try not to be harsh, but obviously players will have to be willing to have their playing style hammered around a bit in order to play :)

This game will be played using Play the World.

The game stats are:

Monarch
Greeks
Continents
70% Water
Maximum rivals, random
EDIT: Barbarians will be restless.
All else random

We're being the Greeks because they are a solid civilization, but they don't have skills that I'm afraid will start becoming crutches. Hoplites are nice units, that'll help us out if we get attacked early on.

Variant rules: We may not build the Pyramids or the Great Library. We may capture them if we get the chance. What? Variant rules in a Training Day Game? Many players rely on one or both of these wonders, and so I want us to win without using either of them.

The first player will play 20 turns, and then 10 turns thereafter.

The game probably won't start for a few days, but signups are starting now. I will take up to five players, and Shaesha is going to play, so that leaves four slots.

Sirp
Shaehsa
Wetterlind
Matt_g
Stormrider
Renata

-Sirp.

I'm in and I hope someone joins us so I don't feel like the only moron on the planet

I'm NOT in, but good luck with this. How about running an Emperor training after this? ;)

I'm in, (insert Roger Rabbit sound) please!

- I haven’t received my copy of PtW yet.. Hopefully I get it sometime next week.

- Random barb activity? I believe that there should have some barb activity but not very much nor non at all...

What sized map is this played on?

Wetterlind: welcome aboard. As long as you do receive PTW sometime next week, you should be right to play. Although....if I get everyone who wants to play happy with playing under 1.29f, I'd be happy to play the game under that too.

Good point about the barbarians; they'll probably be Restless. Although really, with hoplites even raging barbarians shouldn't give us too much trouble on monarch.

Roadrunna: Normal sized map.

Harleqin: Thanks :) I may do an emperor level TDG after this, although imo there isn't *that* much difference between emperor and monarch, and by the end of this game, participants will hopefully already have a very good chance at emperor.

-Sirp.

I'd like to play. My copy of PTW is still in the cellophane, but I'll be breaking it out this weekend. 1.29f would be fine, too, if that's the way you want to go. I've won twice on Regent and have another game all-but-won (probably won't have time to finish), but have also lost a recent game on that level (rotten English sneak-attacked me early, and I couldn't recover).

My playing time may be limited for the first few weeks of this -- too much RL! -- but I'll do my best to make my turns :) and once April rolls around time won't be an issue.

If you'll take me with all that, I'm in.

Renata

Hi Sirp,
I would like to join this game if a slot is open.

Matt

As I fortold, if you make a Monarch or Regent SG, they will come to you. :goodjob:
I'll keep an eye on this one for on-the-side training.

I too would like to play if there is an open spot. I have been winning on Regent and am playing to stalemates (or losing)before getting frustrated on Monarch.

Gerry

Renata: Welcome aboard! I'll put you last on the roster, and if your turn comes around and you're busy, just post a 'skip me' message.

Matt_G and Stormrider, welcome. And uhh....we're full! That didn't take long, you were right Cromagnon :)

The game is still going to take a couple of days to start, so be patient please.

-Sirp.

Great! TY and no worries on patience from this end. :)

Renata

I am looking forward to this. :)

I'm planning for this game to go at a fairly lesiurely pace, with lots of time for suggestions and strategic discussion. I want all players to have some input on the overall course of the game, as well as playing their turns.

If I go too fast or too slow, please let me know. Remember, no question is too silly to be asked.

After we've done some initial expansion, I'm also going to ask each player to submit a dotmap proposal. A dotmap is a screenshot, where colored dots are placed on tiles where cities are intended to go. You can do this using Microsoft Paint for instance. The dots are generally ranked by priority to settle.

(I'm not going to discuss technical issues like what program to use to draw a dotmap, how to upload it to the server etc, unless someone asks. But by all means, if you don't know how to do it, ask and I'll be more than happy to help you.)

Once everyone has posted their dotmaps, I'll comment and post my own dotmap.

I'm also going to have a few 'quizzes' during the game. Each quiz will consist of a few basic questions, followed by some more open ended questions on how we can use the information to our strategic advantage. Players should try to answer the questions without referring to the manual, game itself, or any other reference material. The questions I'm going to ask aren't going to be trivia questions; they're going to be questions I know the answer to myself off the top of my head, and which I think that one really should know to be able to play on the upper levels.

Don't be intimidated though; the questions aren't going to be too hard. If they got very hard I probably couldn't answer them myself!

The first quiz is happening uhh...now. We're going to discuss the opening of the game, and various strategies.

(1) We are the Greeks. What traits do the Greeks have? What do these traits do?

(2) (Harder) Which technologies do the Greeks start with? Of all the starting technologies, which is the most valuable? (I.e. the hardest to research; the most valued by the AI)

(3) What is the Greek Unique Unit? What are its statistics? What does it replace?

and the more subjective questions,

(4) How will our traits and unique unit affect the opening turns? In what ways might our strategy be different than with other civilizations?

(5) Which technology do we want to research first? What technologies do we want to consider researching after that? Why?

Not all players have to answer these questions, just as long as you read them, read the discussions, and understand the answers to them. All players are welcome to offer an answer if they want though. After players have had the opportunity to answer, lurkers are also welcome to offer comments or ask questions etc.

-Sirp.

Hey Sirp. I know that I'm too late to join this one, but could I at least answer these "quizzes", follow along, and maybe make a comment here or there? Hope you won't mind...

Anyway, I'll at least answer the quiz, it can't hurt, right? ;)

1) Scientific and Commericial, IIRC. Scientific makes scientific improvements cheaper and gives you a free tech at every new age. Commericial gives an extra commerce on each squares or certain squares, IIRC.

2) Oh, crap. I have no idea. I'm going to guess Bronze Working and...Alphabet. :lol: I have no idea. And I think Alphabet is most favored by the AI.

3) Hoplite, 1 attack, 1 move, 3 defense. Replaces Spearmen, same price IIRC.

4) Because we have Bronze Working (IIRC) we can forget researching that early, leaving us with the more importent techs like Pottery and Iron Working to research early.

5) I'd say Pottery. Mostly because early granaries are VERY important, as CG4 and a little playtesting taught me.

Sorry if I'm intruding, tell me and I'll edit this post and leave again. ;)

If you provide this wonderful service again in the future, Sirp, please hit me up...

As it turns out, the snowstorm is keeping me from driving south for Spring Break and so I'd've made it to CG5 and/or this.

I'm subscribing to this thread so I can learn dot maps etc.

Great job Sirp.

Cool, my first SG. I am looking forward to this.
Hmmmm, I'll take a shot at these questions. :)

1. Commercial and Scientific. Extra commerce from cities and all scientific improvements are half cost, i.e. Library's, Uni's, etc. When does the commerce bonus kick in? I think it's at size 13 but I'm not sure.
2. Alphabet and BW. Alphabet is the costliest starting Tech.
3. Hoplite. 1.3.1, replaces spearman. Basically you get pikes right from the get go. ;)
4. The UU will be a big help with the Barb's. It would also make another Civ think twice about starting an early war with us. Starting with Alphabet will put us in a strong bargaining postion when making intial contact with other Civ's. Just don't 'give' it away!
5. With a low food start I would research pottery first for granarys. Then probably head for Lit. to build up culture with those cheap Librarys.

P.S. Does anyone know why the e-mail notification doesn't work most of the time?? :(

Matt G- it could depend on your email provider- if you have stuff sent to trash or junkmail without notification. Or it is a site problem, post your concern in Site Feedback so they know about it and keep your fingers crossed.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Matt G- it could depend on your email provider- if you have stuff sent to trash or junkmail without notification. Or it is a site problem, post your concern in Site Feedback so they know about it and keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks for the tip about the Site Feedback. I will post there as it is definitely a site problem. I am subscribed to a half dozen threads but only get e-mail on 1 of them, and have no filters running.

The only 'fact' of those above that I didn't know was Bronze Working. Do all commercial civs start with it? I'm just starting to pick these things up.

I agree with the others on researching pottery, only I tend to go for it even (maybe especially) with a good food start, as a granary can transform a nice steady expansion into an explosion of settlers. It's delayed, though, compared to going without, and I'm not sure which way is better in which situations.

I have no idea how to use the hoplite - I've only played Greece once, I think, and that was one of my first games. I've learned how to take advantage of early attacking UUs somewhat, but defensive ones not so much. On thinking about it, I suppose you could be a lot more aggressive in your settling, because there's really nothing the AI can throw at you early that would have a chance. (edit: Especially if you camp on their iron. :p)

What does a hoplite cost, by the way? 30?

Renata

cgannon64, I am happy for non-participants in the game such as yourself to enter into discussions, ask questions, and answer the quizzes etc. I would be delighted if not only the direct participants in the game learnt something from it, but others too. The more discussion over strategies etc, the better I feel.

However, with the quizzes and dotmaps, I would prefer if non-participants did give the team a small amount of time to answer the questions before replying themselves. You're welcome to try to answer the questions without reading any other responses though. It's just that I think the team members should have a chance to answer the questions for themselves, rather than having others already answer them before they get a chance to post. Once two team members have attempted the quiz, or about 24 hours passes, anyone is welcome to post their responses.

But don't worry about editing your post cgannon, it's fine. Non-participants in the game are also welcome to participate in strategy discussions etc.

Sultan, sorry you missed out on this one. If you'd like I can put you as a reserve in case someone drops out etc. You're welcome to follow the thread, and post questions, comments etc, or participate in the quizzes, under the above guidelines.

Matt_g and Renata, thanks for your answers, I'll post my answers and comment on yours once I've given a little more time for others to post theirs.

The site's email does seem a little inconsistent to me sometimes, but I've never been able to put my finger on a problem, so I might just be dreaming that up :)

-Sirp.

Thanks, yes, I will follow the thread and can step in if necessary.

When I answer these questions, I'm going to answer them off the top of my head. I'm not going to pretend to know things that I don't, and so I'm not going to give any textbook answers.

This isn't so much about being exactly technically correct, as trying to impart the amount of knowledge that is required to master the game. I don't want to leave anyone thinking that to be really good you have to know the cost of every technology off the top of your head, or anything silly like that. I know that there are a few players who are 'experts' in technology cost, but most good players just know the basics. Same with most things.

My answers are as follows:

1) The Greeks are scientific and commercial. Being scientific means that libraries, university, and research labs are half price. (research labs come so late in the game that they are of little consequence though). We also get a free technology at the start of every age. This technology is usually the top-left technology on the technology tree: monotheism in the middle ages, and nationalism in the industrial age, and I forget in the modern age.

Being commercial means that we have reduced corruption. The corruption formula is actually reasonably complicated, but we will find corruption reduced by a substantial amount. This corruption-reduction effect used to be almost unnoticable, but they doubled it a couple of patches ago, and now it is noticeable.

Additionally, the city center tile now produces more commerce than it would normally for cities above size 6. For cities size 7-12, I think it produces one extra commerce, and three extra for cities size 13+, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers.

Needless to say, being commercial means we will find ourselves with substantially more commerce than we would otherwise have.

2) The Greeks start with bronze working and the alphabet. When considering starting technologies, think about it logically: religious civilizations are going to start with ceremonial burial. Militaristic ones with warrior code. Expansionists want to expand, and granaries help with that, so hey have pottery. The Wheel and Masonry fits industrious civilizations. The alphabet matching up with commercial and bronze working with scientific isn't quite so intuitive in my mind, so you just have to learn it.

It is not uncommon for the alphabet to be traded for two other starting technologies.

3) The hoplite is the Greek unique unit. It's 1/3/1, replacing the 1/2/1 spearman. It requires bronze working to be built, and costs 20 shields, and doesn't require resources, the same as the spearman.

4) The first observation is that we are not expansionistic, so we don't get scouts. This means we will have to explore with slower units.

We do get hoplites from the very start, since we start with bronze working. This is a good advantage, but it also leaves us with difficult choices: Do we build warriors or hoplites to start with, and explore with? Certainly if we wanted the military for fighting, hoplites would be a better choice; but early military isn't just for fighting, it's largely for exploring and military police, and warriors do this just as well as hoplites at half the price.

An aggressive/expansionary approach would be to build 3 warriors first up, with two exploring, and one guarding the capital and acting as military police. Once settlers start getting built, hoplites could be produced to guard our cities at that stage.

A slightly more conservative approach would be to build 2 warriors and a hoplite, with the hoplite guarding the capital, and the warriors exploring.

These approaches will also depend on in-game factors though: How near other civilizations are, the presence of barbarians, the food/shield balance of our capital, and so forth.

Having hoplites means we should be relatively safe from attack in the early stages of the game.

Besides determining our starting technologies, our civilization traits don't do much for us early on. Being commercial won't kick in until later on, and we won't be able to build cheap libraries for a while.

5) We definitely want to discover pottery first. No matter what. It's a cheap technology, and it gives us access to the granary, which is far more powerful than any other improvement or unit this early in the game. The only possible reason you wouldn't go for pottery immediately if you didn't start with it is if you want to go for an early pyramids gambit, in which case you'd go for masonry. But that's prohibited in this game anyway.

After that, things are much much more up in the air as to what we should do. If we immediately went for iron working, we could probably get it before other civilizations, and thus trade it with them. It'd also help us to secure a source of iron early on.

We also want to try to get literature and republic fairly quickly, as changing from a despotism to a republic asap is almost always a great move, and getting literature will let us start building those cheap libraries and really get ahead in science. So, we could start going that route.

Really though, pottery is set in stone. Beyond that it's much more of a 'see as you go' mentality.

Some comments on other's answers
---

Matt_g: We'll go for pottery and a granary no matter what. This is almost always the best option.

Good points about the hoplites influencing our opening, as well as having the alphabet putting us in a good bargaining position. Trading it will require skill: we don't want to give it away, but we don't want to end up with them getting it from another civilization or researching it and us getting nothing. Ending up with two technologies for it would be ideal, getting a technology and some gold (20+) would be good too.

Note that commercial also gives reduced corruption, which is generally seen as the bigger advantage. The extra commerce in the city center starts kicking in at size 7.

Note that scientific also gives the free technology at the start of each age.

Renata: Hoplites cost 20, same as spearmen. A Unique Unit that costs more than the unit its replacing is always dubious, since unless it has substantially improved stats, it could well end up overpriced. Before Play the World, no unique unit cost more than the unit it replaced. In PTW, they ran out of unique units to make, so they started making 'super units', and then pricing them highly to make sure they weren't overpowered.

Carthage's Numidian Mercenary is 2/3/1 but costs 30 shields. In my view, the extra attack point is useless, and I'd prefer the 20 shield hoplite any day.

cgannon64: Good guesses on the technologies :)

Also you're completely right about the pottery/granary thing.

If there is one thing I want people to learn about this phase of the game, it's the power of granaries and maximized food.

-Sirp.

If my addendums get annoying just tell me...

Originally posted by Sirp
[B] This technology is usually the top-left technology on the technology tree: monotheism in the middle ages, and nationalism in the industrial age, and I forget in the modern age.
[b]

Computers if I'm not mistaken...


The Wheel and Masonry fits industrious civilizations.


AFAIK, only Japanese get the wheel, as a substitute ability for the usual militaristic tech of warrior code.


The alphabet matching up with commercial and bronze working with scientific isn't quite so intuitive in my mind, so you just have to learn it.


Commercial: I think it is because early Sumerian, Phoenician, and some other writing systems were developed to keep records of trade transactions.
Scientific: Think of the technical knowledge and expertise required to make an alloy.


An aggressive/expansionary approach would be to build 3 warriors first up, with two exploring, and one guarding the capital and acting as military police. Once settlers start getting built, hoplites could be produced to guard our cities at that stage.


What order does the city guard come out? I usually make it the third (or fourth) warrior.


5) We definitely want to discover pottery first. No matter what. It's a cheap technology, and it gives us access to the granary, which is far more powerful than any other improvement or unit this early in the game. The only possible reason you wouldn't go for pottery immediately if you didn't start with it is if you want to go for an early pyramids gambit, in which case you'd go for masonry. But that's prohibited in this game anyway.


This is a fascinating cornerstone of your thinking, one I've never considered before. Pottery is often the first pop out of a goody hut. I'm going to try this next game...

I just want to give you another :goodjob: on your commentaries, Sirp. In the monarch game you inspired me to start I am winning the histograph (considerably larger nation than the others- your settler first mentality really helped me secure land), even on technology (at education/gunpowder), and with a big enough army that when I tell them to leave or declare war, they leave. THANKS!!!

(I don't know if you ever encountered "The CivGuru" but you've got him beat!)

Sultan,

IIRC, the free advance most often received in the Modern age is Rocketry...

JMB

Sultan, thank you for your kind words :) I'm glad to hear your monarch game is going well!

I think everything you said is accurate, except for the computers thing which JMB is right about. I really do rarely get to play in the modern age. I've never discovered a future tech, never been nuked, never nuked anyone, and don't know what half the discoveries allow!

The order the city guard comes out is a bit of a 'play-it-by-ear' thing. You have to look for the presence of barbarians, and other civilizations, the directions which may be explored in and from which enemies may come, the time at which the capital needs MP (which varies according to the availability of food, and the difficulty level).

If you happen to get a conscript from a village it also changes things a little.

I try to avoid building more than three military units first up, because a fourth will give you five units altogether, including your worker, which means you'll be over the limit and have to start paying maintenance. It might still be worth doing, but by this stage I usually want to get my granary going.

If you're researching something, you can never get it out of a village. Pottery isn't a good thing to get out of a village anyhow: you'll research it quick yourself. Also, on the higher levels, you'll want to be a little more reserved about entering villages if you're not expansionist. The chances of getting something out of them are reduced, and the chances of there being barbarians in there are increased, and your bonus against barbarians is reduced. On monarch it's still a good idea in most circumstances, but on emperor and deity it starts becoming a much more dubious idea.

-Sirp.

Good start to what looks to be yet another informative game. Couple things, I don't think the last free tech is computers but rather Rocketry.

As far as relying on huts for free tech may not be the answer. Pottery is the cheapest available tech and if it pops will effectivly be less valuable to you. The best way to get a more expensive tech, from a hut, is to research the cheapest tech. What you are researching will never pop from a hut.

Also, popping huts too close to home without many units can be cause for concern. Barbs can cause a major setbacks if they come at the least opportune times. Not being expansionist opens your civ up to barbs.


Hotrod

Edit: Looks like Sirp was posting as I was writing :lol:

Ok guys, I've rearranged the ordering of the roster appropriately, and it now looks like this:

Matt_g
Stormrider
Sirp
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Renata - Let's hope he has enough time!

So Matt_g, you're going to be up first! If anyone has a problem with the ordering, please let me know now. Also, if anyone needs instructions on how to upload files to the server/how to use zip, etc etc, please let me know now.

The first player will play 20 turns; every player thereafter will play 10. Especially at the start, I expect detailed reports: I want to know every time a city goes into civil disorder, and specific builds of every city early on in the game, as well as how you made people happy.

Before the game starts, we're going to have our first strategy discussion. This is our starting location:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-start.jpeg

The very first phase of a game is a very short but important one: what you do before you've built your first city! This phase can last less than a turn, but it has ramifications that last the whole game.

Some questions:

(1) is this a strong/weak/indifferent starting location?
(2) list all the important features of our starting location.
(3) what do you think we should do? Found the city immediately, move the worker somewhere? Move the settler somewhere? Why? Compare to other types of possible start locations.

Let the strategic discussions begin!

-Sirp.

Sirp,

I agree with a lot of what you say and I too am a big fan of granaries. However, I do not think it is wise to state that pottery as the first research is "set in stone". Nothing is set in stone, in civ, it all depends on the circumstances. Consider these factors:

1) tech costs go up depending on map size and (for the human) difficulty level. I'm not sure what settings you're playing on here, but what you research depends on cost. For example, I often play on huge maps. On a huge map, in most circumstances whatever you research as the first tech takes 40 turns, even at 100% science. A similar situation is likely on large maps on emperor+ difficulty, and perhaps even on standard maps at deity. In these circumstances pottery is not what you want to research - if everything takes 40 turns, it is better to run the gambit on an expensive tech that you can use for trade. If this were the case in your game, if everything takes 40 turns to research at the start, writing would be a good tech for you to research, for its trade possibilities

2) also consider trade more carefully. Pottery is cheap to research but also cheap to buy (as long as you're not buying at second). It may befit you to consider techs that have high trade value in certain circumstances. This brings me onto:

3) neighbours and map type. If you are playing pangaea you are likely to make many contacts very quickly. In addition, expansionist neighbours (who start with pottery) are even more likely to make early contact as their scouts will cover more distance quickly, so the opportunity for early trade is even more apparent if you are playing on a map type where you wil have lots of contact.

There are also other variants to consider, for example, in always war, pottery may not be the best first tech, also, OCCs. In general, I do agree with you, Sirp, that pottery is a very sound first choice, but I do not think that setting it in stone is the best thing to do, as it is better to be flexible in civ than be guided by strict prototypes. Hope you don't mind the comments, I shall be following this with great interest

Nad: Sorry, when I said that it's "set in stone", I meant for the specific game we're playing: Greeks, normal world size, continents, with a prohibition on building the pyramids. Under those circumstances, I would say it is 'set in stone'.

I have played games where I didn't get it. For example, one of the Realms Beyond Epics (13 IIRC, the Iroquois mounted warriors rush one), we had 4 civilizations packed into one sardine can of an island - I made contact with India in the second turn of the game! If I had wasted time going for a granary, there would have been no free city spots left by the time it was done!

Of course, the research of pottery was a moot point in that situation, since the Iroquois are expansionistic and so I started with it.

In *that* case, the best thing to do was go straight for horseback riding, so I could take other cities by force.

However, generally, if you don't start with pottery, I can see very very few circumstances where you wouldn't start researching it. You simply don't know who you're going to run into, or what's going to happen in the game, and you do know you need it. If you don't go for pottery, what *are* you going to go for? Bronze Working (if you're not scientific)? Iron working? I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of its potential benefits.

As for OCCs, well, my analysis doesn't include variants. You could come up with any whacky variant you want that throws half the game's common idioms out the windows. I'm just trying to teach good, solid civilization play here, and in my view there are precious few cases where going straight for pottery isn't the best thing to do.

EDIT: I also want to add that I had a very painful experience with trying another strategy all the way back in Epic 4. See the full report on my homepage. It was a Deity game, and I thought I'd make contact quickly, so I didn't research pottery. Turns out I didn't make contact quickly, and combined with me missing out on planting my capital near to a bonus food tile, I was in serious trouble. It almost cost me the game.

The ability to produce granaries is something far too important to leave to chance.

-Sirp.

Just to add a bit to the discussion about which modern age tech is obtained:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


Basically, it's a result of the algorithm used to randomly select an available tech. It's unintentionally heavily weighted towards the available tech that appears first in the list of techs (in the editor). It is supposed to select, at random, one tech from the new era that is available to the player (i.e., it has no prerequisites).

As an example, with unmodded rules you have the following available techs in the modern era with these approximate chances of being received:
91% Rocketry
1% Fission
1% Computers
7% Ecology

As you can see, Rocketry is heavily favored (simply because of it's placement within the list). This is unintentional and all 4 techs should have an equal chance of being selected. I will look into improving this for the next PTW patch.
From a recent GOTM discussion, but I couldn't find the link.

Originally posted by Sirp
Some questions:

(1) is this a strong/weak/indifferent starting location?
(2) list all the important features of our starting location.
(3) what do you think we should do? Found the city immediately, move the worker somewhere? Move the settler somewhere? Why? Compare to other types of possible start locations.

-Sirp.

This'll have to be short-ish. I'm supposed to be working. :p

1. I'd call it fairly strong, certainly better than average, at least in my experience, primarily because of the cow and the river.

2. A) the cow. When irrigated, will allow fast growth for settler and/or worker production without sacrificing shields. B) the river. Fresh water allows you to dispense with an aqueduct, plus adds commerce to any tiles bordering it, which can help cash flow. Unfortunately, C) the jungle will hamper early use of some of those high-commerce tiles. D) Between the jungle and the mountains, it does not appear that Athens will be able to reach size 12 unless the jungle is chopped, if located where the settler is. D) A lux that close-by is always nice. E) Coastline just visible to the east is an early help with exploration directions. F) Unfortunate shortage of bonus grassland.

3. It looks like the tile the settler is standing on is regular grassland, and I think it's a river tile (I always double-check corners like that, because it seems sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.) If I'm right about both assumptions, I'd settle where we are; I don't see any great bonus in moving. The worker can go to the cow first turn, but that won't reveal any more land due to the mountains and hill so can be done before or after settling.

The schedule looks fine to me, and I'll be able to play unless I happen to come up in the wrong few days. And by the way, I'm a *she*. :)

Renata

Sorry I missed the first quiz. I will throw in my 2 cents on our first strategic discussion.

1. I would say this is a fairly good start. Cows, incense, hills, and a river are good for starting. Jungle is cleared with a little hard work. We also seem to be near a coast (maybe a lake). Coastal cities are good for commerce and can take on a strategic aspect in a non-Pangaea world where you have naval warfare, invasions, and the occasional water-based Wonder. Unless I am playing Archipelego, a coastal starting city is not a must. It also looks like there is decent terrain on the other side of the mountain range to our west.

2. There are some strong points to this location:
a) River eliminates need for aqueduct and obviously makes irrigation much easier
b) Cows are tasty and nutritious. Eating your cows every day will make your cities grow big and strong.
c) Incense smells nice and can make you friends (or cash via trading)
d) Hills = shields. Mountains do too, but they are limited until you get some serious food production going.
e) Bonus grassland is also a nice.

3. Where to start?, hmmmm....

The only exposing we could really do is to move the worker to the hill to our North. While that would display more map, the area exposed in all proabability not be good enough to justify the several turns we would lose moving our settler.

Where we are now is good and will keep 2 of the incense and their hills in our eventual 21 radius. The only other move that I can see would to settle in the jungle to our NW. That would save a square of jungle clearing, but would move our starting city out of radius range to those juicy incense hills. We could always found city number 2 to take those incense in, but that may lead to major overlap with city 1 based on the terrain and coastline we can not see.

After some deliberation, I would probably found in our starting position.

Stormrider

Just like Renata this will have to be short. I am supposed to be working also.
This seems to be a strong location to me also. Good combination of food and shields will make a very strong city. Is that jungle?
It kinda looks like forest to me but I'm sure the others are right. In any case I will find out when I download the save. If it's forest that will help with early builds by chopping forest once the best tiles are improved. (the cow irrigated/road and the bonus grass mined/road.) If it's jungle then there is a good chance this is on or close to the equator. That means we are going to need a ton of workers.
Having a lux in range of the capitol is always a good thing. 2 extra for trading purposes is even better.

My inclination is to found where we stand. This will give us 12 grass, (some of which might be bonus after clearing) 1BG, 3 mountains, and 4 hills in the city radius. I think that is a good mix.
I would move the worker to the cow and settle on the starting tile. Then set research to Pottery at best no deficit rate and start a Warrior for exploring purposes. Get the cow irrigated and roaded then mine and road the BG. Perhaps 3 Warriors to start (2 exploring and 1 for defense/MP) Then start a granary, or if Pottery isn't done, start a prebuild.

Got to get back to work.
Matt

Once again Sirp you challenge my old ways of thinking. I'm sure I know how you will answer this.

Until recently, my first move with a worker would be to build a mine (for faster shields) then a road. Now I go road first, then mine.

I should be irrigating right?

I'm also guilty of occasionally moving the citizen to the forest on the first turn to get a faster warrior build. Crazy right?

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Once again Sirp you challenge my old ways of thinking. I'm sure I know how you will answer this.

Until recently, my first move with a worker would be to build a mine (for faster shields) then a road. Now I go road first, then mine.

I should be irrigating right?

I'm also guilty of occasionally moving the citizen to the forest on the first turn to get a faster warrior build. Crazy right?

I'm not Sirp :D, but I'll put in my two cents. I will always irrigate a bonus food in the early going unless either of the following applies:

- There is tons of food at the city site. Example: 4-cow start, floodplains with 2 wheats and a cow besides.
- The food bonus is only +1 (wine or game), and it's on plains. In this case the despotism penalty kills it, so I might as well mine for the shields.

You need both food and shields to turn out settlers and workers, and you need settlers and workers to expand. Food tends to be harder to come by so in most cases is best to maximize.

As far as the forest chop for warriors, it's just too much waste. A forest chop gets you a maximum of ten shields, and warriors only cost ten. Given that the city itself is going to be producing at least one (and probably more) shield per turn, all this does is waste shields. Better to wait until you're building something bigger, so all ten forest shields go into your production box.

Renata

Not a chop- I mean that you move a citizen on the city screen off of the plains/grassland and onto a forest space where there is one food and two shields per turn. No I would never chop for a unit.

Ah, ok, gotcha. Good to know. :)

Renata

1 & 2) The starting location is a strong one. When you choose a starting location, these are the main considerations:

- Access to fresh water. This is the most important consideration.
- Access to bonus food tiles.
- Coastal access.
- The general strength of other tiles in the area
- Defensive positioning

Note that access to luxuries is not on the list. Having luxuries nearby is *not* an important consideration in my mind. If luxuries are near enough that you can see them before you found your first city, then you're going to get them anyway long before they become very important.

The first two considerations complement each other. Lots of bonus food starts to lose its appeal if there is no fresh water. Fresh water isn't quite as good if there's no bonus food to let it grow fast. If you have checks next to both of thse, then you already know you have a strong starting location.

That the bonus food tile is cattle is icing on the cake. This also means shields early on. If it was wheat instead of cattle though, it wouldn't make that much difference. One shield lost is insubstantial compared to one food lost at this stage. This starting location could obviously be better with more bonus food tiles, but at least one good one is what you want, more are icing on the cake.

It's good to see there's also a bonus grassland nearby. Hopefully there'll be more, but there's only one tile in the radius of our starting location that could possibly be more grassland.

Other features are: The coastline or lake to the east, which needs investigating early. The incense nearby is going to be a good bonus once we get our empire going a little. Then there's, ahh yes, the mountains and jungle. Jungle often hides good land underneath, but cutting it does take a long time. We may have to cut some early on to get good land going.

Mountains will be reasonably good in the long term, as it means that we'll have some strong shield tiles. However, at the moment they are useless for us, and make our land more difficult to defend.

3) It's often good to move the worker first to get some extra intelligence about the situation before deciding where to found the capital. However in this case, we are next to a river and a cow, and I can't see any nearby starting location that could possibly be better. The only places that *might* be better are one space north, *if* there is more bonus food up there, and two spaces south-west, if there is more bonus food to the south-west.

However, opening moves are about strategically choosing the best starting location for the capital; not throwing away moves based on wishful thinking. Also, moving the worker onto the tile you intend to improve before founding the city, just to 'look and see' if there's anything that could possibly make you change your mind, is often a good idea (but not always: Once you found the city, you can see further and might change your mind about where you want the worker to go), however in this case the worker can't see anything more by moving onto the cattle.

Sooooo in this case, we'd want to found the city where the settler stands, and move the worker onto the cattle ready to irrigate. The worker can move first, or the settler can found first; it doesn't matter.

---

Comments on what other said:

I was impressed by the responses.

Renata: Good observation of the features. Yes it's a regular grassland, and it's a river tile. I believe that the 'corners' of rivers are only not considered river tiles at the start of a river. However, if unsure it's always good to check. To those unaware, you can check if a tile is considered next to a river by right-clicking on it and seeing if it produces one more gold than an equivalent tile that's not next to a river.

You're also *right* on track with irrigation.

Stormrider: Great answers; right on track.

Matt_g: Also good stuff. Good observation on us going to need lots of workers. It's unfortunate we're not industrious.

Also good idea with the prebuild for a granary. (Although ermm....our best prebuild option may be a hoplite!)

Sultan: I think you answered your own question :) I sometimes do go for more shields early on. To build my granary faster so it can get more food faster :)

-Sirp.

Time to get this game rolling!

Matt_g has been appointed the first ruler of the Greek people. His advisors and strategists have discussed the path the Greek people should take towards establishing a powerful civilization.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-4000BC.zip)

Your reign will last 20 turns. Each player after this will have a 10 turn reign. (Yes these reigns are short for the start of a game, but in a training day game, I think it's important to focus alot on the start).

All files should be uploaded zipped up with the filename SP4-<year>.zip

where <year> is the year the game is in, xxxxBC or xxxxAD.

The roster:

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- on deck
Sirp
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Renata - Let's hope *she* has enough time!

Good luck!

-Sirp.

I just picked up PTW. Do I need to download the latest patch (sooo slooow), or can I play right out of the box?

Stormrider

You need the patch, for this and for any successful application of the game without bugs and errors.

Yup, everyone definitely needs the latest PTW patch, 1.14f. On this topic, there has been talk that Firaxis may release another patch sometimes soon. If they do, then players may NOT play the game with that patch.

You have to stick with 1.14f: moving a succession game over from one patch to another is just too hard. It is apparently possible to have two installs of the game, one with the old patch, one with the new. That's something that can be tried if anyone really wants to be able to use the new patch for other games.

-Sirp.

Got it.

Ack! I didn't realize that a new PTW patch, 1.21f has *just* been released. The details are at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=46040

Now since this game hasn't really started yet, I am tempted to restart it, using this current patch. If it was half way through the game we'd keep playing under the 1.14f patch of course, but we haven't even started yet!

There is only one concern: The patch only works with the US version of PTW (but I think most English versions are US version compatible), are any of the players unable to get the patch?

I'm going to look at regenerating a start and posting it soon. All players will have to get the 1.21f patch. If there are any concerns or problems with this, please let me know ASAP.

Really sorry about this guys, we'll get into the game soon, I promise :)

-Sirp.

OK, I am downloading the patch as I'm typing this. I will wait until a final decision has been made before installing though.
I am glad I checked back here before playing my turns! :crazyeye:

I hope everyone can get the patch. The one thing that will affect us for sure is "Improved random free tech selection for the Scientific civ trait."
I remember reading a post from MikeB (Firaxis) saying that in the modern age for example you had a 91% chance of pulling Rocketry. I believe the odds were heavily stacked for Monotheism in the Middle ages as well. If it's truely random now that will sure change the flavor of the game. :)
The old Nationlism slingshot may not be around anymore. :lol:

:( too slow, couldnt join. When u making another one, sirp?

Ok, when I install the patch it crashes my machine. I have tried installing and uninstalling several times, including trying uninstalling PTW and Civilization III and reinstalling from CD and trying to reinstall the patch, but still no go. I have posted a message in the thread introducing the patch asking about this.

However, this game has taken too long to start already and I don't think we should delay any further. It's unfortunate that we can't go with the latest patch, but hopefully they haven't changed *too* much.

If you want to use the latest patch for other purposes, I think it should be possible to either install two copies of Civilization III on one machine, or to apply the older patch over the newer one when you want to play. (i.e. keep the exes for both patches in a directory, when you want to play using 1.14f, run the 1.14f patch. When you want to play using 1.21f, run the 1.21f). However I can't test if this is so for obvious reasons.

If you do play with the 1.21f patch, make sure that when you play this game, you're using the 1.14f patch. You can check this by looking at the number in the bottom left of the title screen.

So, the original start stands. Everyone must have 1.14f. Matt_g, take it away.

Jason: Sorry you didn't get in on this. You're welcome to follow the game and ask questions though. *If* this turns out to be as enjoyable/successful as I hope, another one may start when it's done, but uhmm...that may not be for a while.

EDIT: oh also, if anyone really wants to play with the latest patch right now, and doesn't want to have to swap all the time, then I understand if you want to drop this game and go find other games which are run on the latest patch. Just let me know now so I can find other players to fill up the roster.

-Sirp.

OK Sirp. I got it and am using version 1.14f.
If I have time tomorrow, I will do that testing you were trying to do and let you know the results.

Here goes. Hopefully I will avoid any :smoke:
4000BC: Move worker to the cow. Found Athens on starting tile. Increased vision shows we will have 3 total BG in city radius before clearing any jungle. :) Research set to Pottery at break even rate. Due in 14. Production set to a Warrior. Made sure the citizen was working the cow tile.

3950BC: Worker starts irrigating.

3900BC: Zzzzzz
3850BC: Zzzzzz
3800BC: Zzzzzz

3750BC: Worker finishes irrigating and starts a road. Tile now pulls 4 food and is timed perfect because Athens needs 4 food to grow next turn. No waste. Warrior completes and another is ordered. I am sending him to the east to check out whether that is coast or a lake over there.

3700BC. Athens grows. Check city screen to make sure that second citizen is working the BG. Warrior 1 tile East. It’s coast, not a lake. Will send him south next turn.

3650BC: Warrior moves south.

3600BC: Worker finishes roading the cattle. Sent to the BG east of Athens. Move warrior south. Extra gold from road cut research time on Pottery. Now due in 4.

3550BC: Athens builds warrior, a third one ordered. Sent him west. Warrior #1 sent south again. Worker starts a mine on the BG. There are 2 cattle SE of Athens as well as a lake 1 tile from the coast.

3500BC: Athens expands. Looks like there is coast 2 tiles north of the city. Move warrior #2 1 tile west onto the mountain. Move warrior #1 another tile south. Glad I checked the city screen because the damn governor moved the citizen from the BG to the forest SE of Athens when the borders expanded. Moved him back to the BG.

3450BC: Athens grows to size 3. I am able to drop research on Pottery to 50% and still get it in 2 turns. No way to still get it next turn and keep Athens from rioting. 0.9.1 just doesn’t cut it. 1.8.1 would, but at 80% we lose the turn anyways. Raise lux to 10% to keep Athens from rioting next turn. After all this we are making +1 gpt with the sliders at 4.5.1. Move warrior #2 1 tile north. Move warrior #1 southeast.
Oh yeah, I set the third citizen to working a BG. The governors really have a hardon for forest tiles don’t they.

3400BC: Athens completes warrior, set to barracks with the intention of changing to a granary next turn when Pottery comes in. Hmmmm, fortify or send him on a quick 2 turn each way jaunt to the mountain south and a little west of Athens to bust the fog in the immediate area of the capitol. If I fortify him I can drop the lux back to zero. Let’s see what the other scouts tell me before I make a decision. I hit the W key and move the other scouts. Warrior #2 goes NE and spots a goody hut. I can pop this in 2 turns. Warrior #1 goes SE to the coast and finds more land wrapping around to the north and east. There is also a wheat tile and a river down here as well as another lux. Don’t know what that is yet. All I can see is the happy face under the fog.
Decision time. I drop research to 30% and still get pottery next turn. This nets us 1 gold. If I send the third warrior out for 4 turns round trip that will cost 4 gold. If I get barbs out of the goody hut in 2 turns they can’t get to Athens before the warrior gets back and since the last turn will be on a road he will be able to enter the city and fortify. I think it’s worth it so I move him to the mountain due south of the cattle. I”ll see if Sirp thinks this is :smoke: when he reviews my turn.

3350BC: Pottery is discovered. Athens switched to a granary, due in 14. Writing or IW next? Best rate at either is 40 turns without a deficit. If I didn’t have to run lux we could get IW in 32 at break even, Writing would still be 40 turns. I want to know where the iron is so we can better plan our expansion. #1 moves 1 tile south. #2 moves NE. #3 moves onto next mountain south and sees a lake or coast 6 tiles SW of Athens with a bunch of plains and a BG between the 2. sliders at 8.1.1 and we are making +3gpt.

3300BC: Warrior #3 heads back to Athens for MP duty. #1 moves SE onto a hill and sees that other lux is another incense. :(
I was hoping for a different lux. Oh well.
#2 pops the hut and gets barbs. Damn, I almost didn’t pop it just for this reason. Now I wish I hadn’t. The worker should be done with the mine before he has to retreat to the city if that becomes necessary.

3250BC: 1 of the barbs attacks and kills our warrior. :( The other 2 are headed towards Athens. Worker finishes the mine and starts a road but I doubt he will be able to finish it due to the barbs.
Warrior #3 1 tile from Athens. #1 moves east.

3200BC: Warrior back in Athens and fortified. Athens grew this turn also but I don’t need to adjust the lux due to the MP. Still at 10% lux. 1 of the barbs is on the hill north of the city. The other is swinging around to the west. Citizen #4 set to working a BG. With the mine done, the granary is now due in 7.

3150BC: Warrior #1 moves north onto a hill and spots red borders! They are expanded so that means whoevers capitol in only 11 tiles from ours! This is a bit crowded. I’m assuming it’s Rome but I am not sure. Damn barb that was north of the city doesn’t attack. Instead he goes to the open grass NE of the city and next to the worker. The other heads SW and is 2 tiles from the city.
Hmmm, risk attacking, or just leave the warrior fortified and pull the worker back to the city, losing the work on the road? If I win the worker doesn’t have to retreat, saving turns spent on that road, but if I lose, Athens will be sacked and the worker has to retreat anyways. Can he be killed in the city? I’m not sure on this, but I will assume he can be. I make what Sirp will probably call a :smoke: move and risk it. Our warrior attacks and wins without losing a single hp! Better to be lucky than good? :p
Remembered to up the lux due to MP not being in town just in time. Damn near hit the spacebar. Have to run 30% for 1 turn.

3100BC: Only having 1 scout sucks! Our scout moves east along the border. No contact made yet. The other warrior is sent back into Athens and the last barb moves next to the city. Worker finishes road and moves to the adjacent BG. Lux dropped back to 10%.

3050BC: Barb moves onto the cattle. If I don’t attack he will pillage it. Our warrior wins and promotes! Now I have to raise the lux again. :) Our scout moves east and we make contact with Caesar. He has WC, doesn’t have pottery. He already has BW, not that I would get him any closer to IW. No trades possible now. Pottery and all our gold isn’t enough for WC, and even if it was I wouldn’t do it.

3000BC: Scout moves back to the west. Our vet moves back into the city. He can be fortified next turn. Lux is back to 10%. Right now we are running 10% science with IW due in 33, and making +4 gpt. Going up to break even only shaves 2 turns off of the research.

Summary: I think 5 tiles SE of Athens would be an excellent place for our second city. It would have 2 cattle and 3 BG plus it would be on the coast. Yeah it would waste 2 hills right next to the capitol, but you can’t have everything. My exploring pattern leaves something to be desired, though it would have looked better if I hadn’t lost that other warrior to the barbs.

Here's a pic.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-3000BC.jpg

Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-3000BC.zip)

Matt's turn is done, and the game is afoot! We've almost got our granary ready to start cranking out settlers, we've survived an early barbarian scare intact, and we've made contact with one of our rivals: the Romans. So far so good!

3950BC: Worker starts irrigating.

A good move. Irrigate *before* the road. This is an age-old question: do you irrigate/mine first, or do you build the road first? Usually I build a road first, mainly so that other workers can come and help out with the irrigating/mining, because it gives more flexibility for the worker to flee if in danger once the road is finished, and it allows use of the road immediately.

However, in situations when the extra food or shields could really help, I will mine or irrigate first. At the start of the game is such a situation.

3400BC: ... I”ll see if Sirp thinks this is :smoke: when he reviews my turn.

Nope this was fine. You knew it would cost a couple of gold, and you judged it to be worthwhile. It was well thought-out and executed.

#2 pops the hut and gets barbs. Damn, I almost didn’t pop it just for this reason. Now I wish I hadn’t. The worker should be done with the mine before he has to retreat to the city if that becomes necessary.

This was a little :smoke: but also a little unlucky. You could have popped a settler, but you got these guys instead. What terrain was the hut on? If on a hill then not so bad, since you know the warrior will be better defended.

However, you chose to build a warrior as Athen's guard instead of a hoplite. This wasn't a bad choice in itself, however seeing that you built a warrior, popping villages near the capital is a bad idea. If you had built a hoplite, then you could much more confidently enter villages.

Note that as the difficulty level goes up, the likelihood of barbarians in villages does too, and your combat advantage against them falls. On Deity, you don't want to pop any villages early on unless you're expansionist. I'm an Epic 4 (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1027308667) survivor; anyone who played that game will live in fear of barbarians forever.

Although this is a Monarch training game, I want to impart skills that are useful all the way up to Deity. Although popping the village isn't so bad on Monarch, it would *definitely* be bad on Deity. See the upcoming quiz for ideas on how to deal with villages.

Hmmm, risk attacking, or just leave the warrior fortified and pull the worker back to the city, losing the work on the road? If I win the worker doesn’t have to retreat, saving turns spent on that road, but if I lose, Athens will be sacked and the worker has to retreat anyways. Can he be killed in the city? I’m not sure on this, but I will assume he can be. I make what Sirp will probably call a move and risk it. Our warrior attacks and wins without losing a single hp! Better to be lucky than good?

I would have probably done the same thing as you. A worker can be killed in a city, so you'd have had to retreat him back into the wilderness. Then the barbarian could move onto the improvements and you'd have to attack him anyway to stop him pillaging them. Or he could go chasing the worker. Barbarians are more annoying these days. It could have cost us big, but it didn't. We dodged a bullet there.

To be honest, I think you're afraid of the :smoke: here because uhmm..you're actually having to make decisions that haven't come up in the pre-game discussion! :) This game isn't designed to be filled with robots who follow a perfect gameplan. You will have to make real decisions, don't be afraid to go with what you think is the best move. I'd much rather you go with what you genuinely think is the best move rather than what you think is the best move to avoid criticism.

Only having 1 scout sucks!

It sure does!

Our warrior wins and promotes!

Ok, we dodged the bullet. It'd have been better not to have it fired in the first place though.

3350BC: Pottery is discovered. Athens switched to a granary, due in 14. Writing or IW next? Best rate at either is 40 turns without a deficit. If I didn’t have to run lux we could get IW in 32 at break even, Writing would still be 40 turns. I want to know where the iron is so we can better plan our expansion. #1 moves 1 tile south. #2 moves NE. #3 moves onto next mountain south and sees a lake or coast 6 tiles SW of Athens with a bunch of plains and a BG between the 2. sliders at 8.1.1 and we are making +3gpt.

Ok, so you decided to go for a min-science gambit. But, you went for the cheaper technology, iron working. If you want to go for a 40-turn gambit, you go for a combination of the most expensive technology/the technology you think the AI is the least likely to get.

I can appreciate you wanting to see all the iron, but we'll almost certainly get IW off the AI before the 40 turns is up. So what should you have done? Research IW at max science. But it would still take 40 turns? No it wouldn't. You already saw that if we didn't have to run luxuries we would get it in 32 turns, so you knew we are almost big enough to research it in under 40 turns. Our economy is going to grow substantially over the near future, you should have researched it at the maximum, and as we grew in size, it would have come well down. I'd say we could have had it in 25 turns or so, and probably be the first to get it.

Going for writing in 40 turns would be a not-too-unreasonable option, but missing out on seeing where the iron is for that long is a pretty big disadvantage.

The next player should almost certainly set the science to the maximum. Thankfully your mistake here isn't too bad, since we can just use the surplus you built up to run deficits for a while, and make up the research.

I played a shadow of your turns, before I read your report. I'll probably play a shadow of most people's turns, mainly so I can compare how they went with my shadow. That way there'll be a benchmark to judge against.

Others are welcome to play shadows a little later, but not yet. You're not allowed to play shadows yet because you would discover parts of the map that would give away game information and influence later turns. Once our continent has been discovered, I will rediscuss others playing shadows if they want.

Your internal development was *exactly* the same as mine. I built 2 scouting warriors, then a warrior for guarding. Your worker movement was exactly the same. Good work on that. Something that would have been :smoke: but a common mistake I think would have been to move the worker onto the incense to hook it up. Hooking up a luxury isn't worth very much this early, and since they're on hills, it'd have taken a long time. Anyone who had done that would have gotten :whipped:

Your citizen tile placement was very similiar. Good work on taking them off the forests (and yes, city govenors do like shields too much). However, when the granary was almost complete, I put the citizens back on the forests. I timed it so that the granary would complete one turn before the city would grow. That way, you get the benefits of the granary earlier, having the food box half full. This is a minor optimization that can net you a little extra food. It's worth it though. At the end of your turn, Athens was size 4, growing in 1 turn, with a granary due in 3. At the end of mine, it was size 4, growing in 3, but with the granary due in 2.

Your way, the city grows, and you actually end up completing the granary in 2 turns, due to the extra growth. By the end of the third turn, you'll be size 5 with 6 food in the box, and one turn into your next project.

My way you'll be size 5 with 10 food in the box, and one turn into your next project. You'll also end up with a bonus shield due to the earlier growth, I'll end up with an extra commerce, due to the reduced need for MPP.

Not a big difference, 4 food. Still, the small stuff matters at this stage.

That I'm discussing such a minor nit is a reflection on how great your city management was other than this. It really was very good other than this small thing.

I didn't see any villages in my shadow, let alone pop them, so needless to say I still have 2 scouts in tact, which is obviously better; although you were partly unlucky in this regard.

Overall, your turn gets a B+. Good solid play, definitely good enough play to win on Monarch level.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to comment on your suggested city placement. 5 tiles south-east of Athens. I thought *exactly* the same thing myself. That would be a great place for a city. We can't really get the hills next to the capital unless we have major overlap with the capital and/or sacrifice being on fresh water. The first would be silly, the second would be a huge :smoke:

-Sirp.

Stormrider, you're up! Take the game whenever you can. Matt_g's report was excellent as far as details go. If everyone can do reports that good, I'd be happy. If you don't have the time for *quite* as much detail, I understand, but remember, the less detailed you are, the less I have to critique.

My mistake on the second round being 10 turns, Stormrider take 15 turns.

The roster:

Matt_g <--- just played
Stormrider <--- UP NOW
Sirp <--- on deck
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Renata - Let's hope she has enough time!

Ok it's time for our next quiz! Matt_g did a very good job of introducing this quiz topic in his turn. The topic is Villages (Huts).

The questions are,

(1) What are the possible outcomes when one enters a village?
(2) Under what circumstances can you be sure that entering a village will not produce barbarians?

Subjectively,
(3) What is a good policy on when to enter villages and when not to?

-Sirp.

Matt_g - well done. I am afraid I also can not keep my hands out of the cookie jar (i.e. goody huts).

Sirp - I will play my 15 turns tonight (I am downloading the patch as we type)

Quiz:

1. Settler, conscript warrior, tech, barb, $cash, map, nothing (deserted)
2. I believe that expansionist trait prevents barbs
3. I try not to pop huts to close to unprotected cities/workers. Other than that, I have very little self-control in popping them. I suppose that will change when I get burned more frequently at the higher levels.

I will post my turns later.

Stormrider

Just popping in for a look-see before I go incommunicado for a couple of days.

Yay, Matt! No :whipped:. ;)

That SE city site needs a temple to get the cows, right? Hard to tell on my screen, too dark. (I could adjust the brightness, but that would take effort, and I just got out of bed. :p) At any rate, that means we'll need ceremonial burial before too much longer.

As to the quiz:

1) barbarians, maps, 25g (I've seen 50g in late-popped huts but don't know the criteria), tech, nothing, settler, conscript warrior. I guess in PTW you can get an advanced tribe (city), too? And someone somewhere mentioned getting an army, but that must be very rare.

2) If you're expansionist, you'll never get barbs. I think I remember reading you don't get barbs if you haven't built any military yet, i.e. you pop the first hut with your worker, but I'm not positive. (Never dared to try, lol.) And again I *think* that popping a hut by founding a city immediately adjacent to it will not give barbs.

3) I have no really good feel for this at this level - I was playing warlord level a handful of games ago and chieftain 5 or 10 games before that. I've never tried monarch. I suppose I'll have to start avoiding huts close to home until I have some extra military lying around. Huts on defensible terrain are obviously safer. Other than that, I'm not sure.

Renata <--- will check in again after the weekend

PS Sirp (or anyone) if you know how to prepare screenshots for upload using Paintshop Pro could you email me with directions? I know how to take screenshots and paste them in, but after that, that program just baffles me. Thanks.

Welllll I'm suppose to leave for work in 20 mins and I am sitting here in a towel, so this will be fairly short.

To anyone that doesn't know, I am sooo new to this game. I did a TDG with Sirp for Warlords. It was just him and I cuz noone else signed up! That's one of a couple of games I have played to the finish. I plan on staying in this game unless/until I start to slow things down too much then I will drop out and let the game continue =o) So, if I ask what seem to be basic questions, that is why!

As for the quiz.. I only knew about getting gold or a technology from a village. As far as getting (or not getting) barbs from a village... I only knew that you could get barbs from reading this thread so I don't know =o)

Lastly, reading Matt_g's report let me know how much I *don't* know! Leave it to me to miss some very basic concepts =o) I'm not sure how Matt_g figured out where to put the sliders. Now the slider has always given me trouble... I have dreams about it! Ask Sirp! At any rate, I never realized you could 'predict' what would happen on your next turn =o) If someone would please take the time out to explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

TIA for your patience!

If you're talking about rioting, what you need to do, basically, is when a city grows, check your F1 screen. (Conversely, you could check the city itself, but the lux slider is on the F1 screen, so it's easier that way.) You get one turn of leeway with an unhappy-citizen excess before your city riots. So if you see that, for instance, Athens now has one happy, one content and two unhappy citizens, you know it's about to riot. You then move the lux slider up as high as necessary to to get the happy citizens at least equal to the unhappy.

That's about it. It takes practice to keep on top of, but isn't hard once you've done it a few times.

Renata

Shaesha, Renanta pretty well covered it. Main thing to remember is that content citizens are neutral. Just pretend they aren't even there. If you have more happy than unhappy it will riot.

Sirp, about the timing on the granary build, I know better than this and spaced it out. :o
I hate it when that happens. :lol:
BTW the hut was on a jungle tile, N,N,NW of Athens.

Question for you. That spot 5 tiles SE. How do you know you will get the benefit of the fresh water in the city, i.e. not need an aquaduct? I have never been sure with lakes, and I believe I got burned by this once in one of my first games (1.21f) regular Civ3.

[/lurking]
Yeah, when you have more happy than unhappy people they'll riot and it's called carnaval... :lol:
[lurking]

Stormrider: Since you only just got PTW, it's not unlikely that your CD would already have 1.14f on it. Just remember (and sorry for repeating myself but I'm kinda paranoid about this!) you have to have 1.14f to play. NOT 1.21f.

Shaesha, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking and if Renata already covered it.

On Monarch, the first two citizens in a city will be content. Every citizen thereafter will be unhappy, unless you 'give them a reason' to be otherwise.

Content citizens indeed don't count. A happy citizen will counteract an unhappy citizen. So if you have 1 happy citizen, 1 content, and 1 unhappy, the city will be fine. If you have 8 content citizens, and 1 unhappy citizen, the city will riot, since it has more unhappy citizens (1) than happy (0).

Generally, you should start getting familiar with when a city will riot. I.e. when it grows, or when you remove soldiers from it in despotism. I know that some people check the city every turn at this stage in the game. Soon though, it should progress to being 'second nature' to you. "I get two content citizens for free, and there is a soldier in there, so when the city grows to size three, I'll be fine. I don't have to check on it until it's size four" you say to yourself. You don't do this later in the game though; it becomes too complex to work out. Then uhh.....you either (1) check every city every turn. (2) accept that some cities will riot sometimes, especially less important ones.

I must admit I'm lazy, and go for (2).

The Quiz:

1) You can get barbarians, gold (25 normally, 50 if you're expansionist), maps of the surrounding region, a settler, a conscript warrior, a conscript army, or nothing at all! I'm not sure if you can get a free city.

The chances of getting an army is very low. On the harder difficulties, the chance of getting a settler is also low. Additionally, if you have a settler active, or have more than the average number of cities for all civilizations, you can't get a settler. This does mean that on Deity it can actually be slightly more likely for you to get a settler, since you'll certainly be behind in cities.

2) You can't get barbarians if,

- You're expansionist
- You don't have *any* military units
- You open the village by founding a city next to it

3) If you're expansionist (which we're not), you obviously just go into all the huts all the time. The higher the level gets, the more of an advantage it is to be able to enter huts with impunity. On easier levels, no-one cares, because the barbarians are easy to deal with anyhow. Not anymore!

Otherwise, entering a hut when you are confident your scout, on the terrain the hut stands on, could take out the barbarians is a reasonable starting point.

This means that unless the hut happens to be on mountains, you probably *don't* want to open it with a regular warrior.

However, if the region has already been explored (i.e. it would take the scout a substantial amount of time to reach new territory to explore), then you may consider risking the hut anyway. If you do this however, be sure that nearby cities will be able to handle any barbarians that arise.

Also, popping villages by founding a city next to them is a *really* good idea! For any given village, there's a reasonable chance that you'd want to found a city on one of the tiles next to it anyhow. If this is so, then this is the best way to pop it.

I'm like anyone else, I love to pop villages too. But uhh...it's a pretty dangerous thing to do. Remember, Matt_g's village pop "only" resulted in us losing our scout. That was bad enough, setting our exploration back a substantial amount. Imagine if Athens had been pillaged by the barbarian! On the other hand, the most we could realistically have expected to have gotten from the village would be hmm...another scout, which would have been pretty good, or maybe 25 gold, which would have been ok, or maps, which would have been fairly useless. A settler is unlikely.

On Deity, I believe there is only about a 30% chance of getting anything good at all out of a hut, while 70% of the time it's empty or has barbarians. Not good odds.

Renata: Perfect marks on the quiz. Let us know when you get back, I'll look at emailing you instructions on how to use a painting program.

EDIT: Matt_g: A body of water is a fresh water lake if it consists only of coastal tiles. If it includes sea tiles, then it's an inland sea; not fresh water.

If you build a city that is next to the lake, i.e. so that if a land unit stands in the city, it can't move in one of the 8 directions because it'd run into the lake, then you get access to fresh water.

i.e. if you built a city on any of the 8 tiles surrounding the lake in our game, you'd get access to fresh water.

Renata: That city site *will* have one of the cattle in range. The cattle is two spaces away from it, however it's just outside the cultural reach of Athens. Athens has cultural control of the tile north-west of it. By building where Matt suggested, we'll have cultural control of the tile south-west of the cattle. It's a game rule that if you have cultural control of opposite sides of a tile, then you get control of that tile too.

We'll need a temple to get the other cattle that'd also be in range though.

-Sirp.

State of the Empire (aka Pre-turn): I max out science and IW drops from 33 to 31 turns. Should drop further with more roads... Slider is at 0.8.2 we are making no cash, but once we get better than 0 gpt, IW goes back to 33.

Will obviously review the slider frequently to maximize benefits.

My priorities: Settlers and another scout.

2950 BC: Athens at 5. Fortify Warrior in Athens. Leave new citizen on forest - Granery in 1. Move slider to 0.7.3 so we do not riot next turn. IW in 32, GPT -1. Move Scout-Warrior south.

IBT: Barb out of the fog N by NE 3 tiles from Athens.

2900 BC: Athens set to settler (in 4 turns). Leave workers where they are. Slider to 5.2.3 IW still in 31, but GPT +2. Warrior to SW

IBT: Barb 2 tiles N by NE from Athens.

2850 BC: MM Athens - Growth in 4 settler in 4. Warrior West onto hill to go onto mountain next turn to get a better view of what lies in the darkness...

IBT: Barb 2 tiles N of from Athens.

2800 BC: Looks like Mr. Barb is going after our worker. Worker is done mining in 1 - enough time to save him from Mr. Barb, but my MP Warrior may have to leave Athens to avoid plundering of the soon to be mined BG. I will MM Athens next turn if need be, but until the Barb commits, I won't either.

That being said, Warrior-scout moves onto Mountain and reveals several squares of forest.

IBT: Barb moves S. Is now immediately north of Athens and West of worker.

2750 BC: Would have been nice to start the road this turn, but move worker South for safety. Move scout W. MM Athens to +3 GPT.

IBT: Barb SW

2710 BC: Warrior from Athens takes out Barb, no damage. Barb was on grassland - small risk of our warrior dying. Have to increase lux to prevent rioting 4.2.4. Worker back to recently mined BG. Warrior-Scout west to Mountain - exposes river valley.

2670 BC: Settler heads for 5 SE of Athens for new city. Athens set to warrior. Warrior back to Athens. Worker road. Scout warrior to NW. Rome still at only 2 cities

2630 BC: Scout W. Settler SE. Slider 6.2.2 GPT+23 / IW in 25

2590 BC: Athens warrior, now set to Settler. New warrior (W2) goes off exploring. Settler SE. Old Scout (W1) moves W sees some more very tasty terrain (river/plains/grassland). Athens grows next trun. Slider 9.1.0.

Nothing I can do for the last several turns will make IW come any faster, so I try to make some $. GPT +3

2550 BC: :smoke: I could have sworn I had 4 content peeps in Athens, but they riot. Set slider to 8.1.1 My bad. Road done. Worker off to make road to our next city - move to grassland south of Athens. W1 finds game along river. W2 still in area already explored. Settler in position for city next turn.


2510 BC: Athens grows. Settler and growth in 3. Slider 5.2.3 GPT +2 / IW 22 - can only make IW faster by losing GPT.

Glorious Sparta founded 2510. Set to warrior. W2 heads NW. W1 still exploring river valley. Worker road.

IBT: W2 meets Barb coming south.

2470 BC: Keep exploring warriors. Did not attack Barb as he was on hill.

IBT: Barb moving S towards Athens - 3 tiles away. The Barbs I knew and loved in CIV3 would have jumped me, unless there was a worker to kill in range. PTW barbs are not as predictable :(

2430 BC: W2 climbs mountain and finds massive jungle with goody hut in the middle W1 finds goody hut. I am already twitching, dreaming of that cookie jar...

Have been periodically checking on Rome. Nothing new, but
the advisor tells me the Roman Army fears our warrior. So we have that going for us.... :D

IBT: Barb moves closer to Athens

2390 BC: Settler produced. Athens set to Hoplite in 3. W2 finds Barb camp and sees spice to the north. Worker finishes road and moves to BG South by SE of Athens. W1 found 25 in the cookie jar, err, I mean goody hut. Sees a cow.

Settler heads two tiles south. I am heading him towards the plains tile that is on the river 3 tiles South and 1 tile SW of Athens.

Reasoning: Small overlap with Sparta, none with Athens. On a river = no acqueduct. Also in a direction to prevent future Northern and far western Roman expansion (very small factor in my decision). I might have moved him to the West of Athens, but the barbarian scared me off.

Slider 8.1.1 GPT +6. Definitely no rioting next turn. IW still will not research faster.

IBT: Stupid Barb skirts away from Athens onto a mountain in the general direction of Settler.

2350 BC: I switch Athens to warrior (next turn). Move warrior from Athens two south to chase the Settler and provide some protection. Slider 7.1.2 to keep athens at 2 happy and two unhappy (learned my lesson...) GPT +5.

Only deficit spending (and with no MP, a rioting Athens), will IW move from 18 to 17 turns.

W2 disperses Barb camp (+25 GP). W1 moves onto cow and determines that large body of water to the north is fresh water (2 food). Settler to South. Worker road on BG.

Summary: I think I only made one obvious weedy move. Keep an eye on Athens as it is about to grow. Keep an eye on the Barb. Sparta to make warrior next turn. Settler not in final position. Change if you think it is necessary. Rome still only has 1 additional city. They have WC, we have Pottery. Although Sirp recommended next player (me) to max science, only running a deficit would have improved research by one turn. Instead,
I added some coins meager treasury. Still a goody hut in the middle of the jungle if my successor is feeling lucky.

I learned that PTW barbarians are not as predictable. I reconfirmed that only one scout sucks. Not sure what to make of a 2 city Roman Empire 35 turns into the game.

I am not used to playing for an audience, so instead of flying by the seat of my pants, I actually thought out some moves and even thought out in terms of 1 or 2 turns ahead of where I was. Big change in my playing style. Since it is early in the game, I hope any ill-advised decisions of mine will not hurt in the long run.

p.s. We need more workers. I kept on checking to see if Rome had any for sale, but alas, they did not. :( Maybe for Athens' next unit...

Trying to figure out how to post the screen shot. Will do so later, as my wife has declared that I have been playing "that stupid game' long enough. Love that woman...

Originally posted by Sirp
1) You can get barbarians, gold (25 normally, 50 if you're expansionist), maps of the surrounding region, a settler, a conscript warrior, a conscript army, or nothing at all! I'm not sure if you can get a free city.



I have gotten Free cities multiple times.
The requirements are you must be expansionist and the spot qualifies for a free city. I don't know what the qualification is, as I haven't tracked it that closely.

@ Sirp: Actually, I'm still here. Change of plans. So suggestions welcome at any time. Thanks. :)

edit @ Stormrider: I took a peek at the save. Plenty of good open land down south, very nice. And our first four or five cities should all be on freshwater, which is better than nice. The rivers should help our research a lot, which by the way, really isn't that bad - we could have ceremonial burial right now in 8 at 80%, for instance, and even masonry is only 16 turns.

Rome must be working on something expensive if they still don't have a new tech and are still at only 10 gold. Could it be .. iron working? ;)

Renata

I max out science and IW drops from 33 to 31 turns. Should drop further with more roads... Slider is at 0.8.2 we are making no cash, but once we get better than 0 gpt, IW goes back to 33.

Good work maxing out on science. Yes it should drop further with roads. I don't know why you're concerned with gpt though, we don't care alot about that at this stage, we care about getting IW asap.

Will obviously review the slider frequently to maximize benefits.

Ok, to be good at Civilization, one often needs to work smarter, not harder.

Do you know how researching technology works? We dedicate a certain amount of income to science. The amount we dedicate each turn goes into a box, much like the production or food box of a city. When the box fills up, we get the technology. The only difference with this box is that we can't see it in the game, and that there is a minimum of 4 turns for research, and a maximum of 40.

The only time you get inefficient waste of science effort is if on the last turn of research, you produce too much and it overruns the amount needed. For instance, if we need 8 beakers to get a technology, and we are producing 6 a turn, then we will get it in two turns, but at the current rate, we'll end up getting 12 beakers when we only need 8, and so waste 4. Suppose that we wait until the last turn, when we only need 2 beakers, to adjust the slider rate. If we can adjust it to an amount that will give exactly 2 beakers, then we will have no wastage at all. It is likely that we will still have a small amount of waste however, and so we might try to adjust it 2 or 3 turns out from discovering a technology, to try to eliminate that waste.

Even just adjusting it on the turn before the invention is discovered will eliminate 80% of science wastage. Don't even bother adjusting it for waste elimination more than 5 turns out

The turns reported to research a technology are if we keep researching at the current rate. Observe three simple facts:

- we know our commerce is going to rise in the near future, although we're not sure by exactly how much
- we want iron working ASAP. We don't care that much about money at this stage
- iron working is a long way off.

Obviously the amount of time displayed to get the technology on the slider is very rough at this stage. As such, what we want to do is put as much commerce as possible into iron working, even if it doesn't affect the quoted turn rate.

Only deficit spending (and with no MP, a rioting Athens), will IW move from 18 to 17 turns.

Excellent! We have lots of cash, start spending at a deficit. You didn't? Hmm...why not? Our cash isn't doing much sitting around in our coffers. Use it to get IW faster. Even if the quoted turn rate doesn't change, plug as much as possible into science!

By the end of your turn, IW was due in 18 turns. By the end of my shadow, it was due in 10. Sure, I had lots less cash on hand than you did, but uhh....that cash isn't going to be terribly useful. I guess we might be able to use it to buy WC off the Romans.

I also went to less effort with the slider than you did. I just set-and-forget it to max science, only occasionally keeping an eye on my treasury to make sure I didn't run out of cash.

IBT: Barb out of the fog N by NE 3 tiles from Athens.
2900 BC: Athens set to settler (in 4 turns).


Well I played more conservatively: When the barb appeared out of the fog, I set Athens to build a warrior. You took a smallish risk, in exchange for slightly faster expansion. Doing things my way allowed me to move Athen's guard onto the hill though, denying the barb from interfering with our worker.

I would have preferred a hoplite in Athens, but there wasn't time to build one before the barb arrived.

The Barbs I knew and loved in CIV3 would have jumped me, unless there was a worker to kill in range. PTW barbs are not as predictable

Yeah, I haven't had as much experience with PTW barbs as I'd like yet, but I do know they are smarter and much more annoying. I'm thinking of playing a Deity, Raging Hordes game with lots of open land, just to see exactly how bad they are :)

I could have sworn I had 4 content peeps in Athens, but they riot.

Ok, why would you have 4 contents? You just said that you set luxuries to 0, you have 2 content by default and you just have one warrior for MP. That'll make 3 content citizens and 1 unhappy. At this stage, if you have luxuries at 0%, you shouldn't have to look at a city to know if it's going to go into disorder, you should just know.

---

Your internal development was great. Your worker moves followed the exact same pattern as in my shadow, except that in my shadow I didn't have to retreat from the barbarian. Your settler rate was great. You built one city, and have set it up for the next player to build one almost immediately.

Notice that we have the same number of cities as Rome: 2. We will almost certainly beat Rome to a third. That's *with* an early granary!

I notice that you sent settlers out undefended. With confirmed barbarians around, this is a somewhat unadvisable move. Sure, it lets you expand faster. To be honest, I'd have to say it's a great move if you're planning to reload or restart if things turn sour, it's a bad move if you intend to win *this* game without cheating. (I am not implying that this is the way you do or have ever played. I know that many players do play this way. I am ashamed to admit that I once used to play this way). Losing a settler this early is just too damaging to not escort them. You have to protect your most valuable assets.

Since it is early in the game, I hope any ill-advised decisions of mine will not hurt in the long run.

Well, bad decisions will likely be game-lasting at this stage, however you did just fine. Your play was definitely good enough to win on this level.

The first two turns have been great, and we've had some detailed analysis. However, I said when I started this game that anyone who had beaten Warlord or above could play. That means we're going to get players who are barely Warlord capable, through to players who can sometimes beat Monarch. This is fine. I want to help each player at the level they're at. I'm also happy for you guys to try to help and advise each other.

So, don't be intimidated if these first two rounds have been over your head. Just do the best you can, and you'll be sure to get lots of valuable advice. Everyone was a crappy player once :)

p.s. We need more workers. I kept on checking to see if Rome had any for sale, but alas, they did not. Maybe for Athens' next unit...

Yes we do need more workers. Building one in Athens wouldn't be a bad move, although I'm thinking that I might get one out of Sparta: It's a high food city too!

Workers are not nearly as cheap to buy from the AI anymore. Buying workers used to be a great move. Umm...so good that it was borderline exploitive: it could cripple that AI. Checking with the AI every turn to see if they have workers is boring, repetitive, and involves no skill whatsoever. If I see a worker for sale, I'll consider buying it, but I don't check every turn.

Finally, umm....your biggest :weed: might have been the state you left the game in. A barbarian two tiles away from Athens which is undefended, although about to produce a regular warrior. Hmmm....

And you know what? That barbarian is probably going to move onto the cattle. That will deny our workers in Athens the use of the cattle for that turn, and the govenor will move them somewhere else. This will result in Athens getting less commerce for the turn, which might result in it rioting....which would mean the warrior won't get complete, which means the barb will pillage it! I tried this out, and confirmed that that's exactly what'd happen, so we have to raise our luxury rates.

SUMMARY:

Good - development, building a scout, exploring, building settlers; placement of Sparta, intended placement of next city.

Average - sending out settlers undefended

Poor - Not going max science, letting Athens riot, leaving Athens threatened by barbarians.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Renata
Rome must be working on something expensive if they still don't have a new tech and are still at only 10 gold. Could it be .. iron working? ;)

Renata

I would bet the farm on that. :lol:

Sirp was right. We could have had writing and probably got WC and IW for it.

Originally posted by LKendter



I have gotten Free cities multiple times.
The requirements are you must be expansionist and the spot qualifies for a free city. I don't know what the qualification is, as I haven't tracked it that closely.

I got one in a solo game I'm playing now as the Mongols. Luckily it was in a good spot.
FYI, according to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36596) You don't have to expansionist. It can happen for any Civ. Being Expansionist does increase the odds though. Personally, I would much rather have a settler. At least then I control where the city is placed. :crazyeye:

grrrrr I was in the middle of a long post and then it decided to refresh the page, losing everything I typed for some reason :mad:

It's dotmap time! Here is the current State of the Nation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-2350BC.jpeg

Unfortunately we don't have as much intelligence as we'd like, largely due to the early scout loss. Nevertheless, we're going to plan our empire.

I would like it if each player could submit a dotmap. Just download the above image, and place a colored dot on each tile that you think a city should go on, with a commentary on which order we should found our cities along with why that is a good city site.

It's not mandatory, but it will hopefully improve your city placement skills, which are an important part of the game.

Renata, I can't give you help with Paintshop, because I'm not familiar with it, but I can give instructions using Microsoft Paint, which is available on all Windows machines, and which is similiar to Paintshop anyhow. I'll give instructions here, since they might be of benefit to others too.

NOTE: I use Windows XP. IIRC some versions of Windows shipped with a version of Paint that doesn't support Jpegs; if your version of Paint doesn't support Jpegs you'll have to use another program like Paint.

To make a dotmap, download the above image (right-click and put save). Then open up Paint from Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. Open the image. There is a pallete of tools on the left side of the Paint window, and a pallete of colors at the bottom. Select the brush tool, and select a color from the bottom. You can draw a little dot on the tile you think a city should go on. You can use Control-Z to undo if you make a mistake.

When you're done, save the image, giving it the name SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg - so Renata would use SP4-dotmap-Renata.jpeg for instance.

Then come to the forum, put "Upload File" at the very bottom right of the page, and select your file.

Then post a message, describing your dotmap, and press the 'IMG' button above the message box. It will ask you for the image location, enter "http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg"

And you're done!

If anyone really has trouble with this, they're welcome to post a textual description of where they think cities should go instead. (insert Chinese cliche about pictures and words)

I'm up now, and then hmm...Shaesha and Wetterlind still don't have PTW as far as I know. Renata seems a little more ready to play than she previous indicated.

So, Renata, if you're ok to play after me, just post "I got it" after I do my turn, and you can play. Otherwise, whoever out of Shaesha and Wetterlind gets PTW first and can play can take the turn.

Matt_g
Stormrider <--- Just played
Sirp <--- UP NOW
Renata - On deck, if she can make it
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!

-Sirp.

I don't think I've ever gotten a city from a hut. Does it still display the "We have found an advanced tribe" message like in Civ1?

I think it's a good idea though; getting a settler from a hut is a bit too good. A city is more balanced, so they could make it happen more often.

Yes, it is likely that Rome is discovering Iron Working. If there are other civilizations on the continent, we want to discover them before Rome, so we get the trading opportunities.

If we get IW and Rome still doesn't have it, we can get a good idea of whether they're researching it by offering it to them and seeing how much they value it. If they won't even give us WC for it, we know they've almost discovered it themselves.

-Sirp.

Yep just ignore this one :)

Well... Here goes nothing!


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-2350BC-shaesha-dotmap.JPG


First I would start with the red dot. I would start here to keep the Romans from
expanding, because there is access to fresh water, and because of the 2 different
types of bonus food tiles.

Second, I would go to the yellow dot. There is a bonus food tile nearby, and
hopefully more goodies to the southwest.

Next, the black dot. Actually I am having trouble between the black and the blue.
From what I know about the two, the blue will have access to fresh water. Now,
where my question lies... is it possible that after clearing some of the jungle
that the river will continue in through there? If so, I'd definately go to the
black dot. Lots of opportunity there

The reason I'd like to use paintshop is for the ability to crop images. I actually can do it, but I'm never quite sure what size it will turn out after pasting.

At any rate, I can get by.

I can play Monday night, if that's ok. Dotmap sometime tomorrow.

Renata

2350BC (IT): Luxuries increased so that Athens will not go into civil disorder even if it is denied its cattle. Science taken to max.

2310BC (1): The barbarian moves onto the cattle. Athens produces its warrior. But now what do I do? If I defend the city, the barbarian may pillage the cattle. If I attack, we may lose and he may pillage Athens! If he pillages Athens we will lose a whole heap of gold, or a citizen. Pillaging the cattle would be almost as bad.

I choose to attack him. We win. A bullet dodged. Athens is set to build a hoplite. (Afterwards I reloaded the game, just to see if he'd attack, pillage, or go after the worker if I didn't attack. He pillaged. My observation is that this does make hoplites and other defensive units substantially weaker against barbarians).

I move our scout around that body of water, trying to confirm it is indeed fresh water (and wondering why he can't just taste it to see!)

Sparta finished its warrior, and is set to build a worker.

2270BC (2): We build Thermopylae, which is set to build a warrior.

Rome has a worker to trade. They want Pottery and 50 gold for it though. This is now a pretty fair trade; in the past they'd value them at about 40 gold. If I thought that Julius would build a granary in Rome if we give him pottery, I wouldn't give it to him. Since I don't think he's going to do that, I do the trade.

I confirm that the body of water is indeed fresh.

2230BC (3): Our scouting warrior spots blue borders in the north!

Rome has just managed to come up with The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...did they research one of them? Meet someone and trade? Find em in huts? Hopefully they researched at least one of them, meaning we'll definitely get IW before them, and be able to trade it most likely for all three.

Our worker moves on to build a road on the cattle, rather than mine the enriched grassland near Athens. A close choice there.

2190BC (4) Athens builds a hoplite and is set to build a settler.

2150BC (5) Our warrior in the south-west sights green borders! The Romans have Iron Working :(

We are now four technologies behind Rome. Don't worry, we'll catch up. To play on the harder levels, you have to learn to play from behind in technology.

IBT the Babylonians contact us (we're at their borders, so they can see us, although we can't see any of their units yet). They want to trade Pottery for Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...we'd rather trade Alphabet to them in exchange for all their technology (Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code, plus all their cash, 10). This is what is meant by Alphabet being so valuable :)

It's also of no *immediate* value to them, while pottery, the far less expensive technology, is!

2110BC (6) Athens grows to 6, luxury slider adjusted. Sparta builds a worker. We make contact with the Aztecs in the south-west. They are ahead of us by the Wheel. The Romans and Aztecs each have 2 cities, the Babylonians 3. We also have 3. The Babylonians have Mysticism, but are not interested in trading it.

I suspect that the Aztecs and Romans have contact, due to their similiar techs, and since the Aztecs having Jags would be likely to have made contact with them. However I doubt Babylon has contact with either. So, we do have brokering opportunities.

Athens will be a settler/worker farm, always maximizing food, trying to churn out as many settlers as possible. Sparta is high-food so it can also build some workers, but will concentrate more on improvements/military. Thermopylae is not high food, so we will make it produce military, as well as trying to build a granary in it at some point, so it can grow as quickly as possible.

2070BC (7) Thermopylae builds a warrior. It is sent exploring; set to build a barracks.

2030BC (8) Babylon now has Masonry. The only way they'd trade it with us is for gpt. IW is 5 turns off, hopefully when we get it we'll be able to start to make some good trades. Hopefully.

1990BC (9) Settler/hoplite pair almost at site for fourth city.

1950BC (10) Athens-Sparta connecting road complete. Irrigation near Sparta complete.

I wasn't terribly detailed in my report. If anyone doesn't understand why I did something, please ask.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1950BC.zip)

(Can someone please help me out here? Is it ok to attach files to posts? I knew at one time it wasn't, but I heard rumors that it's ok again. Is it ok or do you have to upload it to the server?)

Renata, I'll move you up in the roster, which means you're up now. Monday night will be fine.

Matt_g
Stormrider
Sirp <--- Just played
Renata <--- UP NOW
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!

Wetterlind, please update us on your PTW status and availability.

If we manage to get IW before the Aztecs and Babylonians do, Renata should have some great brokering opportunities. The game is certainly going to be interesting. Us between three civilizations, all of whom are known to be rather aggressive at times.

I went 10 turns and it's going to be 10 from here on out, unless it gets real slow in the IA, in which case we might drop to 5.

If people want, they can use the updated map info to do their dotmaps.

-Sirp.

Sirp

Thanks for the education on science research. I did not realize that it added beakers up like food. The reason I left gpt was that even if I went to deficit on $, my turns to discovery only decreased by one. I figured I might as well get some money if only one turn would be saved. Live and learn.

Question: If I change tech mid-stream, do my beakers start over from scratch? I am under this impression, although I have nothing to back it up. This is the reason why I left IW.

As I said, I tend to play a little risky, which is why I left Athens in the state I did. In fact, I usually pump out as many settlers as possible with as little defense as possible. Risky, I know. I recently became a forum lurker and now understand at leastm the value of a granery - something I did not bother with in the past. Live and learn.

Stormrider

Dot mapping is still one of my weaker skills.
However, I can give a hint to help.
I draw the borders that the cities will create.
This will often reveals problems when I do the maps.

Do you notice the weakness with the city radius on the map?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-2350BC-shaesha-lak.jpeg

Just to address a sub-discussion going on in this thread, you get a free city if (and only if) you have no settlers out there or under construction, and your number of cities is less than the number of cities in the game divided by the number of civs in the game... in other words, you are behind.

The map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1950BC.jpeg

I intend for that hoplite/settler pair to settle on the tile directly north of where they stand. There's lots of land to grab in all directions, before our rivals get to it. There's rich land near the Romans and Aztecs that we'd like, and there's a source of Spices near the Babylonians. Course we can just build fairly non-aggressively for a while to come.

-Sirp.

LKendter: Thanks alot! Your picture illustrated the point far better than my explanation would have :)

Stormrider: Yes if you switch research midstream, all your research to date is wasted. You should very rarely switch research midstream.

Shaesha: you might like to try a second attempt at a dotmap. Hopefully LKendter's explanation will have helped alot.

-Sirp.

LKendter -

Thanks for taking the time to do the map that way. I didn't have a good understanding before, that helped alot!

Just tossing in some comments.. :)

I move our scout around that body of water, trying to confirm it is indeed fresh water (and wondering why he can't just taste it to see!)

You can, of course, right-click on a water tile; if it shows 2 food it's fresh water.

(Can someone please help me out here? Is it ok to attach files to posts? I knew at one time it wasn't, but I heard rumors that it's ok again. Is it ok or do you have to upload it to the server?)

You can if you really need to or if the file server isn't working, although the practice is discouraged.

Question: If I change tech mid-stream, do my beakers start over from scratch? I am under this impression, although I have nothing to back it up. This is the reason why I left IW.

Yes, all your beaker accumulation is lost if you change research goals.

a conscript army, or nothing at all! I'm not sure if you can get a free city.

You can't get an army from a hut anymore; that was fixed in one of the patches. As for a free city, only Expansionist civs can get that, and only in PTW. Yes, it does give the "advanced tribe" message. (Note that a settler is actually better than an instant city, since then you get to choose the location to found, but an expansionist civ has an additive chance for both.)

You either (1) check every city every turn. (2) accept that some cities will riot sometimes, especially less important ones.

You might want to get the graphics mod that adds to the citizens in the city screen small mood icons indicating happy, content, or unhappy. With that, it takes about one second per city in the F1 window to find any that will riot. I do that every turn until sometime in the industrial age, then I do go with Sirp's #2 there. :)

I can't seem to find it in the graphics forum, so I uploaded it to the file server here. Put it in the Civilization III\Art\SmallHeads directory, and it will work for both Civ3 and PTW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/civ3moodbadge15x15simplesmiley.zip

BTW, Sirp - did you still want to try a different sound.dll for patching? If so, drop me a PM here with your email address.

You can, of course, right-click on a water tile; if it shows 2 food it's fresh water.

Yes you can. Why didn't I think of that before? I guess one of the good things about running this TDG, is that inevitably some lurkers who know more than I will come along and point out things I can learn.

Thanks T-Hawk.

-Sirp.

And then some fun...

-Still alive-

Well, I haven’t head a single sound from the Internet shop... no PtW yet. I suggest that I’ll skip this round and hopefully I can play the next time it’s my turn. If I haven’t received my copy by then my spot in the roster is open if any one else (i e a lurker) wants it.

Anyway, here is my dotmap. I used the best available screenshot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-Wetterlind-dotmap.jpg

Comments (not much, I’m on a tight deadline this week):

Red dot:
Placing a city here is important because we’ll need to claim that space before “they” get it. This place needs an early temple, thus Sparta can delay the building of a temple of its own and still get that second cow.

Pink dot:
Can possibly be placed N (the tiny pink dot).

Light grey:
Possibly useful dots, only the future can tell.

Overall:
All dots are placed on fresh-water sites, which is good. There isn’t much overlap (black circles) in the dotmap, and some overlap isn’t a big deal (at least not until some 20-80 turns after Medicine and Railroad).

There is much fertile land in S-SE.

Any comment is welcome...


Must get goin' again, RL sucks sometimes… Hopefully, next week will be more gentle on me.

W1 moves onto cow and determines that body of water to the north is fresh water (2 food).

Sirp - I did point out that the water was a freshwater lake. I indicated two food which I determined via right-click.

Stormrider

Here’s my dotmap. I loaded Sirp's save game to get the most recent info, and so I could check whether a tile had access to rivers etc.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-dotmap-mattg.jpg

This map is assuming the existing settler/hoplite found 1 tile north of where they stand now.

Yellow dot: High priority. Will help cut the Romans off and has access to the wheat and river. Will probably piss Caesar off, so we may want to have 2 hoplites there. Might also want to build a barracks ASAP.

Red dot: Another high priority. Grab those spices before Hammi does!! This will be a strong city once all the jungle is cleared. I would send 2 workers along with the settler and hoplite if possible. Will be a flip risk. May want to whip a temple when feasible. Also a possible source of future resources. (Coal and rubber)

Dark red dot: Third priority. Will seal our border with Monty.. I thought long and hard about this one. I hate wasting all those tiles NE (SW of Athens but the lake just doesn’t allow better placement. With a fish and plains cattle, this should be a strong starter.

Blue dot: Finishes the job of sealing in Caesar. Same caveats as Yellow dot.

Dark blue and Brown dot: Finishes our core. Brown dot makes use best use of the available land there, is on a river and the coast. Will be a good source of gold due to all the coast. Especially with a commercial dock later in the game. Dark blue, same reasons except won’t be quite as strong commercially.

Of the remaining 4 (Green dot, Powder blue, purple and orange) they all are on rivers with the exception of orange. Equally important in my eyes. Future events will dictate which needs to be founded first. I placed them where they are to make best use of the land with minimum overlap.

I also would think about placing a city 1 tile SW of where our northern warrior is now standing. It grabs a bunch of jungle for future resource possibilitys. Once we get that fog busted, some of these plans will probably change though! :lol:

Edit: I know this is a TDG, but I must say that Monty's capitol is an attractive target, don't you think? :satan:
Matt

Let's just see if this works, then comments will be in the next post. My dotmap:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/rendotmap.JPG

Cool, it worked. Here goes:

This is hard, because I keep changing my mind.

The easy part: Blue dot is where the settler is headed, according to Sirp. Fine with me.

The hard part: I'd like to put the next settler SW of Athens, on the yellow dot, to get the last fertile land in the first ring. But the land further south, at pink dot, is better. My current inclination is to go there first, but I keep changing my mind. I'm also tempted to put pink dot one tile closer to Thermopylae to get the cow before expansion, but that loses the fish. Decisions decisions. At any rate, red dot is next, as the lack of lux will start to hurt eventually. We'll just have to hope we can get it before Hammy does. AI doesn't seem to prioritize jungle sites very highly if there's fertile land around, so we should have a shot. I'd love to get green dot - gets Sparta its second cow without a temple (in Sparta) and gets a plains wheat of its own - but it's probably a pipe dream. Rome has gotta want that spot, and I'd prefer to get the first ring (the fertile parts of it, anyway) settled first.

The lavender and light blue dots to the south are both good river sites (and the lavender site is nicely defensible from the Aztecs if we occupy the western mountain), and I'd probably go there next.

Last but not least: the remaining yellow dot near Tenochtitlan has some lovely bonus tiles (and would give us a western port), but we'll never get it unless we go after the Aztecs militarily. The yellow dots in the north can be filled in when we have settlers to spare, and may be moved slightly depending on where exactly the coastlines are up there and whether there are any fish or whales. It'll take tons of workers to clear all that jungle, so despite their proximity to Athens they can't be all that high priority.

I think that's enough to start with. :)

Renata

PS. @ Sirp. Why is the Roman worker building a mine on a normal grass when there's an unmined BG one tile away? (Sorry, I couldn't resist; I'm sure you'll have plenty of comments for me in about 30 hours. :D)

Is there room for One more :). I am trying to learn as much as possible so that I can be an Expert Civ3 player.

ok, a couple of quick things first, then my dotmap:

Wetterlind: Sorry to hear you haven't gotten PTW yet. Let us know as soon as you get it. I accepted you on you saying you expected it this week, so I'll give you until the next time you come up, or until the end of the week, whichever is longer, before I replace you in the roster. (I'm probably optimistic about turn pace to think we'd do a whole round in a week though).

In other news, Shaesha tells me she has obtained PTW, so she's good to go after Renata.

CivGeneral: I'm sorry, but this game is already filled to overflowing. Six is what we've got at the moment, and it's the absolute maximum for a succession game. I think that Jason the King and Sultan Barghash would have both liked to play, but they couldn't because the roster filled up too fast. I may do another TDG after this, look out for it.

Renata: Good spot with the worker. However, there is a reason why he's mining the unenriched grassland. The turn I bought him, the road onto the enriched grassland was still being built. This left me with a choice: move the worker onto the enriched grassland, and start building the mine next turn, or get to start the mine this turn. I figured that since Athens was doing 4/6 population with its settler building, it'd be using the unenriched grassland over half the time, and so it would have benefit fairly close to that of having the mine on the enriched grassland. Since we're worker-short at the moment, saving a worker's turn seemed like an appealing option.

Now that I think about it, it probably wasn't worthwhile doing with a slave worker; possibly with a native worker, since then it'd have been a 1/6 mine saving instead of a 1/12 mine saving, but still it was a chosen tradeoff rather than a mistake.

It does raise something that's interesting to consider though, for players who haven't considered it before. Suppose you have two workers, and you want to mine and road two tiles. What is the most efficient way to do it? Lots of people will move both workers onto one tile, and improve it, then move to the other one, and improve it. This is less efficient, because it wastes four worker-turns in movement altogether. It should still be used though, if the first tile is much higher priority than the second.

The tactic I usually use in such cases is to move each worker onto a different tile, have them each build a road on their tile, then have one of the workers move onto the tile of the other, and both mine that tile, before both mining the first tile. This wastes the minimum 2 worker-turns to movement, and gets the higher-priority tile mined fairly quickly.

Likewise, lots of people use large worker teams, while these are good in some ways, you should know what it's costing you: a 12-worker-team can chop a jungle tile in just 2 turns, but it also costs them a turn to move onto the tile, meaning they have to spend 36 worker-turns in all to chop the jungle. A single worker takes just 25 worker-turns. Of course, you probably don't want to wait 24 turns for your jungle to be chopped, so it's best to use moderately sized teams, that aren't too inefficient, but don't take forever to get the job done either.

Whew, that's quite alot in this post, I'll put my dotmap in the next one.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-dotmap-Sirp.JPG

This dotmap was done using the 2350BC screenshot, without further world information. I've marked overlaps with white dashes, and wasted tiles with red dashes.

The first thing that struck me was that it was a difficult dotmap to do, because of the limited knowledge we had - largely due to the loss of our early scout. At the time, we only knew of the Romans, now there are two more civilizations we've contacted.

One dot I really wanted was the pink dot. That's one of our highest priority city sites in my mind. It's on fresh water, and once improved, should be a great city. The red dot is on fresh water, and snuggles in nicely with the borders of Athens and Sparta.

However, this left me with a dilemma: with the pink and red dots, there'd be a substantial amount of lost land near the capital between them. I figured that a city site on the lake with some overlap with the pink city would be fine, hence the green dot.

I am perfectly happy to have lots of overlap if it means having fresh water. Fresh water really is that important.

The blue dot is snuggled up against the coast, and will likely be one of our two important port-cities, along with Sparta. The grey and purple dots are good-looking locations, but ones that we really had to explore a bit more before deciding upon their suitability.

Oh umm...ack yeah, I did this dotmap directly from the screenshot, and forgot that the warrior has a cow under him. The grey dot would probably go one space north-west.

The yellow dot is fairly aggressive towards the Romans, and would be of high priority since they would no-doubt like to get it first. It'd allow Sparta to gain immediate use of the cattle, while it gained use of the wheat. It also doesn't have any current cultural overlap with any Roman cities, meaning they wouldn't be so angry with us.

I drew a question mark up near the spices, because although spices obviously would be nice to have, we didn't have enough intelligence on the region to make a judgement.

Note the importance of fresh water in my placements. Every one of my dots has fresh water access.

My priorities would be:

1 - red
2 - pink
3 - yellow
4 - green
5 - blue
6 - purple, grey.

Going for the yellow quickly before the Romans get there is an appealing option, but not a solid one. We would be trying to grab land in their core before we had built our own. Going for the spices too early I would have similiar reservations about. It'd be nice to have that extra luxury, but our core is in more urgent need of attention.

-Sirp.

I'm impressed by the overall qualities of the dotmaps. We all seemed to think that the tiles south-west of Athens being wasted were a concern.

Renata, I think you need to go with your instincts on putting a city on this side of the lake. We can always try to get one on the far side later if it's still available. Tiles near the capital are important.

We all seemed to like a push down towards Rome, but Renata and Wetterlind put the site one south-west of where Matt_g and I did. I put mine where I did because it gets the wheat immediately, and is in the arm of the river which gives better defense should Rome decide to get nasty. What was your reasoning guys? (Not saying it was wrong, just wondering)

Matt_g: Your orange dot in the south isn't on fresh water, but it would be if you moved it one tile in almost any direction. Umm...that's not what I'd call well-placed :) Other than that your map is pretty good, if very optimistic. (We're going to have to expand nice and fast to get all those cities down near Rome).

Renata, my only other real reservation about your map is placement north-east of Athens - you don't have a definite city site, although you have two shadow-dots. In my mind, the choice of a city there is obvious, either where I put it or where Matt_g put it. (My location clears jungle and has less overlap with Athens. Matt_g's is on the same side of the river as Athens, and has less potential overlap with future cities).

That kind of city is also fairly safe to settle. Just send a spare settle up there without the need for an escort, and a couple of turns later we'll have a core city.

Anyway, overall very good quality dotmaps.

Don't feel constrained by the dotmaps though guys, if you think a city spot is better for whatever reason why you're playing, go for it.

-Sirp.

Regarding the spot down near Rome, I moved it one tile further in mostly to avoid cultural conflict. (It also avoids the wasted tile.) I figured it would need early culture anyway to defend against flips and would get the wheat then. Your point about being in the bend of the river is well-taken, though.

The next settler out of Athens (not Rome! :lol: ) has no escort available; I thought I'd send him northeast and take a look-see for any ocean resources before deciding exactly where to settle, hence the hand-waving up there with the yellow dots.

This is an official 'got it', by the way. Will play tonight.

Renata, has jury duty today, her first time, whoopee:lol:

When you said "settler out of Rome..no escort" I thought you meant a Roman settler that you saw that you were thinking of killing or something! :)

The dot as I placed it is a nice distance from Rome: 4 tiles. So there is no overlap; no cultural conflict. Once we build a temple there and expand, it is guaranteed that they will get two tiles, and we will get two. What's more, there is no room for them to build a settlement between Rome and our city.

You've reminded me to write something on aggressive settlements. Dots near Rome do not have overlap with any Roman cities. This means that although the Romans might consider attacking us for lack of land, they will not consider our settlements 'aggressively placed'.

If you settle cities that do overlap with another civilization's settlements, it will make that civilization substantially more likely to attack you. The nearer the settlement, the more likely. If you settle three tiles away, it's only moderately bad. Two tiles away, and they don't take kindly to it. If you settle one tile away, you can almost count on war at some point.

In fact, if you notice the AI surprise-attacking you alot, you can almost be certain it's because you've been settling aggressively.

EDIT: Oh, and have fun with the jury duty, I got sent a letter recently saying I might be up for some of that soon. It'll be.....an experience, I'm sure :)

-Sirp.

I meant Athens of course. Will edit.

Serves me right for going online before coffee. :)

Renata

@Sirps dotmap: I totally agree with you on the blue and yellow dots.
The yellow dot is fairly aggressive towards the Romans, and would be of high priority since they would no-doubt like to get it first. It'd allow Sparta to gain immediate use of the cattle, while it gained use of the wheat. It also doesn't have any current cultural overlap with any Roman cities, meaning they wouldn't be so angry with us.
And another thing: hopefully we can deny the Romans the luxury that will be inslide our borders once the city expands. Then we can trade it to them (unless we decide to boot them of the planet). Unless they do an agressive settlement...

Originally posted by Sirp
Matt_g: Your orange dot in the south isn't on fresh water, but it would be if you moved it one tile in almost any direction. Umm...that's not what I'd call well-placed :) Other than that your map is pretty good, if very optimistic. (We're going to have to expand nice and fast to get all those cities down near Rome).
-Sirp.

I put orange dot there to minimize overlap. After considering your comments, I can see I need to attach more importance to fresh water. However I also have an aversion to overlap, which I'm sure hurts my play at times. Most of my other cities are on fresh water and I figured needing an aquaduct down there was an acceptable trade off to get less overlap.
On that same subject, I considered putting a city on the same tile as your green dot, but had a major problem with the overlap. :o

Yeah, my map is really optimistic! :lol:
I know we won't get all those, but threw them out so you could see what my 'big picture' would look like if I had no competition for the land.

Edit: One more thing. The driving factor in my placement of my brown dot city was the fact I wanted that grassland that Sirps placement doesn't get. I don't know which is better. :confused:

Matt

Matt_g: Oh yes, your brown dot does get one extra unenriched grassland that mine doesn't. I think either city placement is ok; the main thing that's important is for the player to understand and consider the tradeoffs.

Moving your orange dot one space east wouldn't make alot of difference wrt overlap. Aqueducts take ages to build, especially for a city that would be as corrupt as that one. Being able to avoid them is a huge advantage.

Renata: I forgot to mention before, do note that Sparta is soon to produce a hoplite. It would not be very risky to strip Sparta of its defenses to defend the new settler, and then have Sparta's defenses replaced when its hoplite arrives. Sparta is hooked up to Athens by road, and could have defenses arrive fast if it were threatened during the brief window that it was undefended.

Generally, early on, leaving a settler undefended is *more* risky than leaving a city undefended, because barbarians do worse things to settlers than they do to cities.

-Sirp.

Ah, good point about taking Sparta's warrior, that didn't occur to me. And Rome put a city in a really cruddy position that would make any city in their direction near the wheat quite agressive. There's still room there, but we should be prepared to have a pissed-off Caesar on our hands if we do go that way. In any case, the state of the empire in 1625 BC - turnlog to follow:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1625BC.JPG

Renata

Forgive me for my wordiness; I cut it down some, but I suffer from diarrhea of the keyboard. :)

Ok, here we go. Preturn, all looks good. I hit enter.

IT: The Romans settler near *our* wheat. Pissers. Oh well, I did expect that. What a cruddy city location, though.

(1) 1910 BC: Settler/hoplite pair to city location. No movement possible on science slider. Our extreme NW warrior walks into a barb ...

IT: ... and gets killed.

(2) 1870 BC: Iron-working learned. Athens produces settler. Lux back to 10% and science up a notch. On what, I don't know yet, will see what we can trade for first. Athens' settler, lacking escort, heads northeast to see what he can see. Corinth founded, set to warrior on high shields, as we need more map info. We have iron between Corinth and Athens, on one of the mountain tiles. There are three more in view, all to the south. Trades: oh this is not good. Rome and Aztecs have definitely met; they both have wheel plus mysticism now, and the Aztecs have aquired iron-working. Just a turn too slow! Babs have masonry plus mysticism. Actually I think all three may have contact; all three want the same amount, 65 g, for mysticism. Our only brokering oportunity is to buy masonry off the babs with ironworking (horribly inequitable, but they have no cash) and see what, if anything, the Aztecs or Romans would offer for it. Since our chance at selling IW for any price won't last any longer than the Babs scraping together some cash or another tech, I decide to make the deal. Next, masonry to the Aztecs for the Wheel and 41 g. (This brokerage opportunity wasn't going to last long - Caeser was only willing to offer 20g for masonry!) Finally masonry and 54g to Caeser for mysticism. Net: mysticism/ masonry/ the wheel for iron-working plus 13g. Could be worse. :) Research set on max to mathematics, currently due in 18. Oh, we have horses, too, just SW of Athens near the next city location.

(3) 1830 BC: We attack a barb and win in the south, no damage.

(4) 1790 BC: Athens grows, Sparta produces hoplite.

(5) 1750 BC: Lux to 20%, math now in 12. Still at -1 gpt. Barb warrior shows up outside Corinth - c'mon take on our hoplite, I dare ya! There's more land to the north - still unclear if it's connected to us or not. Looks like it, though. Delphi founded, will be gorgeous city with fish plus whale once it expands, but will be set to warrior first for defense. With the extra land up there I don't trust we won't get barb visitors. Check in with the neighbors: no new techs have shown up. Monty's broke; Rome has 100 g. Babylon's 2 techs behind us now, lacking pottery and the wheel and without the cash (they have 25 gold, must've gotten a barb camp) to pay for either. One more thing -- Aztecs have settled a city in a nice patch of furs down there --- tempting targets indeed. But first things first.

(6) 1725 BC: Mostly zzz, but we find a barb camp SW of Corinth. Athens will build settler next turn, still at size five, so will need warrior or two to catch up.

(7) 1700 BC: Athens settler-warrior. Lux slider to 0%, math in 9 temporarily. Corinth warrior-worker. Warrior kills the barb that was lurking around. Ur's borders have expanded by the way; good thing I found another spice to the west of the lake. Will still be hard to get to before the Aztecs. Barb camp attacked; we win with 1hp left, no promotion. Diplo check: status quo except babs have learned the wheel. Could sell babs pottery for all their gold (25), but decide not to. Oh good, one more spice only a tile away from Corinth's expanded borders. So we have our 'will be hurting if we have less' two luxes within reach.

(8) 1675 BC: Lux back to 10%, math still in 9.

(9) 1650 BC: Athens warrior-warrior. New warrior heads south. Could stay as MP, but Sparta will grow next turn anyway, so minimal benefit, and there are barbs to chase. Two barbs heading in direction Sparta/Thermopylae, two more in vicinity of Corinth.

IT: Barb attacks our warrior on mountain W of Corinth. We win w/o damage, no promotion. Another barb comes into view over there.

(10) 1625 BC: Sparta hoplite (heads for Athens)-worker. Delphi warrior (stays as MP/barb defense) - worker. Pharsalos founded on lake. Athens to build warrior next turn, but can be switched to settler if next player wants it two turns faster. If not, I intended it to stay around as MP. The warrior in Sparta still has 1/3 movement left if next player wants to move him southwest after the barbs instead of keeping him as MP. They're still at least 3-4 turns away - current worker jobs are not in danger. 7 turns left on math at the moment. Diplo check: status quo. Oh one more thing. We now have six cities to Babylon and Aztecs 4 each and Rome's 3. :D So nice set=ups, everybody.

Here's the save: 1625 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1625BC.zip)

Good luck, Shaesha!

Renata

Originally posted by Sirp
Moving your orange dot one space east wouldn't make alot of difference wrt overlap. Aqueducts take ages to build, especially for a city that would be as corrupt as that one. Being able to avoid them is a huge advantage.
-Sirp.

I didn't even consider the corrpution factor. :smoke:
I am used to playing on large or huge maps. Corruption wouldn't be a big problem at that distance. I had 'forgotten' this was a standard map. My next solo game will probably be a small map, just to get out of the rut I've put myself in.

Should we maybe change from Math to Writing? With writing we will get closer to the republic - it seems the depotism food penalty is hampering our growth.

Just a thought... :D

It would be a bad idea to do it right now; we'd lose all the beakers we've accumulated toward math.

Here's my reasoning for choosing it in the first place:

The 2nd level ancient era techs are math, writing, horseback riding, iron-working and mysticism (pretty sure those are right, off the top of my head, would have to check to be 100% positive). But at any rate, of those, the most neglected by the AI seems to be math. So that's our best chance for getting first and having to trade around later. If we do get it first, we can, I hope, wind up getting math *and* writing (and possibly horseback riding, too) in about the same time as it would take us to get just writing. I do want to get to republic, by the way, but we're not close to ready yet with no luxes hooked up, no happiness improvements and no marketplaces, so we have time.

Renata

Renata, firstly you got the url of the game wrong, it's here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1625BC.zip) - the url for the file server is www.civfanatics.net not www.civfanatics.com

Good stuff exploring the west coast; you found that there are more sources of spices over there, and we don't have to be aggressive towards Babylon to secure ourselves some. One thing that you could have done is pop that village now. We're alot safer these days: the nearest cities are Corinth and Pharsalos, which are both defended by hoplites, don't have any improvements to be pillaged or workers to be killed. Thus all we'd lose if we popped the village and it turned out to be barbarians is the warrior who popped it. (We could even send a hoplite over to pop it)

The Romans getting Antium was going to happen sooner or later, they'd have to have alot of attractive land that we can't see for them not to go for it. Still, a very weedy place to put it for them! Surrounded by fresh water and yet not on it. I don't care what unseen resources lie beneath, that is one badly placed city.

I think you could have done better with your management of Athens: You let it slip to size 3. The settler could have waited, keeping up the 6/4 thing.

Also, you built warriors in Athens. Athens can produce 7 spt at size 4; if you had kept it at that at a minimum, you could have had a hoplite in 3 turns. Even better though, a barracks or temple in Athens wouldn't hurt at all. Just as long as it doesn't reach size 7, waiting for it to get its population/food back up is a good move.

Now....Mathematics vs Writing...

Shaesha is right in that we want to go into Republic. We would go there *now* if we could. The food bonuses in Athens and Sparta alone would be a substantial advantage. We'd end up with less disposable income than we have now with unit maintenance and increased luxury rates, but we'd make it up much quicker with the faster growth and faster workers.

However, you are right in that Mathematics is the least prioritized second-teer technology by the AI. I do like your plan of trying to use it to trade for Horseback Riding, and Writing.

The main concern I have is that the AI might not get writing soon; they may concentrate on the bottom half of the technology tree, or simply research slow. If this game was a Deity game, or an Emperor game, your strategy would probably be the best, on this level - where we can outresearch them if we try hard enough, I'm not so sure.

Certainly, Mathematics, Construction, and even Currency have little use for us in the near future. I don't think we have use for catapults soon. (They are very good for fighting defensive wars, and sometimes offensive ones though). I also observe that none of our cities we have at the moment will ever be 'capable' of building an aqueduct.

Marketplaces are the one thing which we do want, but not yet; we don't have any luxuries hooked up, and aren't close to getting three. We also have lots of research, but are rarely using our cities to generate cash, so they have no use for us yet.

Thus in terms of direct benefits, Writing and its associated technologies are what we want: we want the Republic, and we also want Literature. A temple in Sparta would be nice, but a library would be cheaper and better!

Map Making is also something to aim for. Harbors are a good improvement, and never underestimate the power of the Great Lighthouse.

Overall, I think the Writing/Mathematics choice could go either way; certainly worthy of a good discussion :)

Our Civilization is doing well. Six cities over the first 55 turns. Congratulations to all involved!

-Sirp.

Ok, Shaesha is having trouble with PTW, so she'll have to be skipped and reinserted into the roster later. So, Matt_g is up!

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- on deck!
Sirp
Renata <--- good work!
Shaehsa (skipped til further notice)
Wetterlind (skipped til further notice)

Now I was going to write some advice, tips, strategic direction etc, buttttt, everyone seems to be doing pretty well, so I thought that I'd just throw Matt_g in the deep end and see how he goes :)

Good luck!

-Sirp.

A couple of things I forgot earlier:

Renata, in my shadow of your turn, the Aztecs gave me Mysticism *and* the Wheel for Masonry. Did you try and see if you could get that too?

Also, when you finish a technology, you'll often see that the AI has 'just' gotten it. That doesn't mean that you have missed out on selling it to them by one turn though.

The cost of a technology is reduced for each civilization that you have contact with that has it. Say that the Aztecs were researching IW and had 62 out of a needed 80 beakers toward it. Now suppose that you discovering it cuts their needed beakers to 60. They will get it *immediately*, cutting you off from the trading opportunity. It doesn't mean that they 'just' beat you to it.

(Note that there is a way to get around this, but I tend to consider it a 'bug' in Civilization's interface rather than an intended feature. It is listed as a Realms Beyond exploit and don't use it and won't go into it here).

Also, I'd like to give a plug for the latest Realms Beyond Epic. See the information page at http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic25.html

It's on Emperor level, so nice and tough, and posting a detailed report would be a great way to get expert players to give feedback and analysis. If I can get the latest patch working on my machine, I'll definitely be playing it.

-Sirp.

The cost of a technology is reduced for each civilization that you have contact with that has it. Say that the Aztecs were researching IW and had 62 out of a needed 80 beakers toward it. Now suppose that you discovering it cuts their needed beakers to 60. They will get it *immediately*, cutting you off from the trading opportunity. It doesn't mean that they 'just' beat you to it.

Ahh, well that explains a lot! I was always wondering how the AI managed to get my tech the same turn every time--always seemed a little fishy to me, but now it makes perfect sense. Does it ever work the other way, that the human player gets a tech when another Civ discovers it? Can't remember that ever happening to me.

Ok, I've decided that now players may start playing shadows of other people's turn. That is, if you have the time and compulsion, you can pick up the saved game even when it's not your turn, and play 10 turns. But don't post a report here, you can send a report with your saved game to me - email me at david8020000@yahoo.com

It would clog the thread up too much to have shadows posted here, and I really don't want to open another thread for them. I will send you back comments, and where appropriate make comparisons between your shadow and other people's games in this thread. Non-players are also welcome to play shadows and send them to me, and I'll comment. (In the unlikely event that I get more shadow submissions than I can handle, this service will be scaled back :) )

However, if you play a shadow, do NOT go exploring. Designate units that you would send exploring, and fortify them on the spot. At this stage, it is doubtful that you would use the intelligence provided by discovery for more than 10 turns, so this shouldn't really affect your shadows at all. I don't want the decisions of players being 'polluted' by knowing things they're not meant to go.

Speaker: Glad I could help with my explanation :)

The way it works the other way round, is your research will go to '1 turn'. Haven't you ever had your research at, say, '4 turns', and then next turn you suddenly find it at '1 turn'? If so then this is what has happened. You don't get the technology instantly because of the order in which human and AI techs are calculated.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
One thing that you could have done is pop that village now.

Didn't get the chance. The warrior just west of Corinth is on his way; the other one in the vicinity just came up from the south (he had to fortify a couple of turns to recover from sacking the barb camp). The warrior that was closest to the hut to begin with is the one that got killed early on in my turn.

I think you could have done better with your management of Athens: You let it slip to size 3. The settler could have waited, keeping up the 6/4 thing.

Ok. I wanted the settler first, *then* the fill-ins, but can see your point.

Also, you built warriors in Athens.

My reasoning: I wanted two units instead of one. Both Athens and Sparta could use an extra MP to keep the lux tax down when they're at size five or higher, and two warriors are better at that than one hoplite is. If I was playing this by myself, the *next* time Athens had shield over-run I would've built a barracks. The warriors were/are a pretty big waste of shields right now, though. I missed that at the time.

On Aztecs giving up mysticism plus wheel for masonry - I didn't think to check! I got their offer of wheel plus 40g (all their gold, essentially) and figured that was it (they were asking 65g minimum for mysticism alone). I do think my estimation of the worth of various techs is off a bit from playing lower levels; lower-level civs almost never can actually pay you full price, so you don't even look for it after awhile. So one 'monopoly' first-rung tech can be worth a first-rung *and* a second-rung *known by two civs or more* tech? Good to know.

Thanks for the comments. :)

And one more of my own, for the next player. In retrospect, I think I should have sent the warrior that's now in Sparta directly toward Thermopylae. With two barbs on the way, the lone warrior there is looking a tad vulnerable, and we do *not* want that barracks sabotaged. Perhaps he could head over there now?

Renata

Nice playing Renata!:goodjob:

-Now, on a sadder note-
I contacted the store and received the following reply:
[Swedish to English] We've had a database breakdown and your order has been lost. [/Swedish to English]

Alas, I will not receive any copy of PtW in the foreseeable future. :(:mad::cry: Thus I withdraw my spot in the roster. I’m truly sorry for any inconvenience that this might cause.

But know this: I will be watching you all closely. And probably learn a thing or two (or rather, lots and lots of things:lol: ).

Semi-lurker mode engaged.:scan:

Sirp,

are you sure that if you switch research halfway through you lose all the beakers? I have a suspicion this may not be the case, as I'm sure I've invested in research, broke it off (for various reasons) and then when I come back the amount of time required to research is much shorter than researching from start (a big clue, I was once researching fission, switched to computers, researched that and went back to fission, time required to research only 3 turns - must have been because of previous investment)

(sorry for interrupting the lesson)
Nad,
You defenitly waste the beakers. Turn amount for researching fission may have dropped for some reasons:
-You simply accumulate more beakers now; this very likely due to research labs that came with computers (and a larger population - citizens turning to scientists)
-other civs have researched fission by now, so it's *cheaper*

edit: sorry, didn't read about 3 turns left - ignore me then

Got it.

Ok. I wanted the settler first, *then* the fill-ins, but can see your point.

Well uhh...don't we all want settlers first at this stage? :)

If you needed a settler extra-fast for getting some spot that was in contention and beating an AI to it, then you'd get it fast. But now the next settler is going to have to be delayed, and Athens gets less shields and less commerce as a result.

My reasoning: I wanted two units instead of one.

That's fine - two hoplites in six turns instead of two warriors in four. A hoplite would also be a non-trivial defensive unit, while a warrior wouldn't. It's worth the couple of extra turns, and Athens needs to grow back up anyhow.

On Aztecs giving up mysticism plus wheel for masonry - I didn't think to check!

You should always check these kind of things - you'd be surprised what you can get sometimes. I didn't think they'd do it either to be honest, but I figured it was worth a try. Thankfully they did do it!

This also makes me think that the Aztecs may *not* have contact with the Babylonians, since that would reduce the price of Masonry substantially. AIs usually get contact when they both go hunting after barbarians and happen to run into each other. In RBE1 we played with no barbarians on a large pangea, and you'd think that all the AIs would have had contact with each other fairly early. Nope! Writing came around and we were selling contacts to civilizations that had borders almost touching!

Witterland, sorry to hear of your misfortune. I hope you'll still enjoy following the game.

This opens up a new roster spot for us. We're still early on in this one, so it'd be a good time to join. Anyone who'd like to join, please let me know, as well as telling us a little about your civilization experience to date.

EDIT: Sultan Bhargash, Jason the King, and CivGeneral have expressed interest in joining in the past; they will get priority over other players in that order. Otherwise it'll be first to post interest.

Nad, you waste the beakers. A simple test will show this. However, I guess it's possible it could work in a more complex way than I've thought of - I'd welcome a saved game that'd show what you're saying :)

Matt_g: Good luck!

-Sirp.

Open the game and have a look. We need workers bad. I see we have some in progress though. Good deal, God knows we need them.
Military Advisor says we are strong compared to the 3 Civs we know. Good. Between that and our Hoplites, I doubt I will see any tribute demands. :)

Preturn: Veto the warrior in Athens. Changed to a Hoplite. Warrior in Sparta is fortified. Since I changed Athens to a Hoplite, I am going to send the one between Sparta and Athens to Thermo. He can get there just as fast as the Warrior out of Sparta and will be better defense. I also won’t have to raise lux this turn. (Though I will have to next turn.)
I also touch all units to make sure they don’t have any movement left. Knew there wouldn’t be, but it doesn’t hurt to check. Renata did a Diplo check this turn so I don’t bother.

IT: Barb by Pharsalos moves to forest 1 tile north of city. Just as advertised, a barb comes out of the fog heading straight for Thermo.

Turn 1-1600 BC: Hoplite between Athens and Sparta is moved to the hill E of Thermo. Worker completes mine on tile that’s shared between Sparta and Thermo. Move him to BG NE of Thermo. Our warrior in the south made 25 gold cleaning up barb trash (lost 1 hp). Warrior W of Pharsa heading towards goody hut. Warrior in the N is heading towards that choke point N of Corinth to see what’s up. Athens grows to size 5 and lux is raised to 20%. New citizen set to working BG.
I don’t attack the barb N of Pharsa. I think he’s going to go to Athens. If so, I will attack him there with a warrior instead of attacking him now with a Hoplite on a forest tile. (25% defense bonus)

IT: That barb is heading towards Athens. The other turns and heads west. Guess he didn’t want to dance with our Hoplite. :lol:

Turn 2-1575 BC: Babs are building the Oracle. Thermo grows to size 3. Citizen has to work an unimproved normal grass. Athens-Hoplite>Barracks. I might change my mind here. Will reevaluate every turn depending on growth etc. Sparta-worker>temple. I want that cattle in range!! A library is a long way off yet. (relatively speaking) Send the new worker to help our slave with the mine. Worker at Thermo start roading the BG. Hoplite on hill moves into Thermo. Athens hoplite stays put. Lux dropped to 10%. Sliders at 0.9.1. Scouts move, including the hurt one in the south. I move him to a mountain and will let him heal there next turn. There is a Jag heading for that goody hut but I will beat him there by 1 turn thanks to the jungle.
Diplo check. Aztecs have 3 cities and that’s it. No gold or tech. Rome has 2 cities and 133 gold. No tech. Babs have 3 cities and 25 gold. Still don’t have Pottery. Could get all his gold for it but I like him without granarys.

IT: Barb between Athens and Pharsa turns and heads towards Corinth. Another comes out of the fog 2 tiles from our wounded warrior in the south. Barb S of Thermo disappears into the fog.

Turn 3-1550 BC: Worker at Sparta finishes mine, starts road. Worker at Thermo starts roading the BG. Decided to road before mine due to all the barbs and because of what Sirp said earlier about other workers coming to help out. Makes sense to me.
Cool!!! We got Horseback Riding out of that goody hut. [dance] Other scout moves closer to choke.

IT: Barb moves next to Corinth. There’s nothing threatened by him so I’ll let him make the next move. The one by Thermo comes back out of the fog. He just can’t make up his mind! :lol:

Turn 4-1525 BC: Athens grows to size 6. Hmmm. I have 19 shields in the box towards a rax. With the 6th peep working a forest we are getting 11spt. Swap rax to a settler, due next turn and will drop to size 4. Lux raised to 20%. Sliders at 0.8.2. Math due in 2. Dropping to 70% science adds a turn so I leave it. Will adjust next turn. Our worker and the slave finish the mine for Athens. Send them towards Pharsa. They will road the hill between Athens and Pharsa and then start improving tiles around that city. The road will be a big help if we need to send defenders over that way for any reason.
MM Corinth. Only needed 1 food to grow so I swap to a forest tile and shave a turn off the worker build and still grow next turn. Too bad we lose 1 of the 2 shields to waste or the worker would have finished next turn as it grew. Oh well.
Diplo check: Aztecs, have 25 gold now. Must have cleaned up some barb trash. We are up HBR on them but 25 ain’t enough Monty! Babs have 4 cities now and 27 gold. Still don’t have pottery and we are up HBR. Rome, No change except we are up HBR on them. He will give all his 133 gold for HBR. I am going to wait and check back every turn and see if any other techs (or a worker) become available or see if the price starts dropping. This is one area of the game I know I’m lousy at, trading. I honestly don’t know if I should have taken this or not.

IT: Barb impales himself on Corinth hoplite. The one hanging around Thermo moves onto the mountain next to the city and worker.

Turn 5-1500 BC: Athens, settler>hoplite. I’m moving the settler/hoplite pair to the dark blue dot on my dotmap. That is a ‘core city and I’m real paranoid about Hammi sticking a city up there. I also wanted to send him towards those spices but……..
Lux dropped to 10% and drop science to 40%. Will get math next turn and make 11 gold this turn.
MM Corinth back to a grass tile to keep up best growth rate. Scouts still busting fog. Sparta grew to size 4. Temple in 8. Boy, I not used to these size maps. Sparta is at 25% waste only 5 tiles from the capitol.
Move warrior out of Thermo to protect our worker. I will not attack that barb as long as he is on that mountain.
Diplo check: Aztecs, no change. Babs, are 1 gold richer. No change other than that. Rome will still give all his gold (133) for HBR. I keep hoping he will get something we don’t have, though I am beginning to think that’s a pipe dream.

IT: Barb impales himself on Thermo hoplite. Another comes out of the fog in the same area.

Turn 6-1475BC: Math comes in. Don’t even have to think about it. Research set to Writing at best rate. Due in 11.
Corinth, worker>barracks. It’s low food but could be decent shields if we ever get some pop there. Maybe it should be a granary? Plenty of time to veto this one folks. ;)
Worker finishes mine at Sparta and move to help out at Thermo. Warrior protecting worker at Thermo moves onto the mountain.
Move scouts. The one out on that strip of land walks right into a barb horse. I’ll bet he’s dead meat. We’ll see. Southern scout is in a bind with barbs as well. I was going to clean up a camp this turn but the camp grew a second barb this turn so I move him to a mountain for better defense. Of course there was a barb on the adjacent mountain. So now he has 2 on 1 side and 1 on the other. :rolleyes:
Diplo check: No change from previous turn, except we are up math on everyone. Caesar would give all his gold for that as well. The problem is Monty and Hammi don’t have diddly squat!

IT: That barb horse didn’t attack! I don’t believe it. Our southern warrior wasn’t attacked either, though that camp just spawned a horse heading our way. Aztecs found a city 2 tiles south of Sirp’s purple dot. I thought about going here with that settler as well. I’m glad I didn’t. He would have been standing on that mountain 1 tile N this turn. This is getting real crowded, real fast.

Turn 7-1450 BC: Thermo, barracks>hoplite. Athens grew to size 5. Lux to 20%.
MM Delphi to a forest tile. Still grow next turn and shave a turn off the worker build.
Warrior at Thermo kills barb that was irritating the hell out me. Warrior in the south dispersed the camp for 25 gold. Still have 2 barbs loose that way but Montys new city is a much better target for them. I move our warrior that was threatened by the horse in the north back 1 tile and will fortify him on the choke for now.
Diplo check: Rome finally got a third city. Will still give all his gold for HBR. Monty of course has another city but nothing else. Babs also have 4 cities now but nothing else to offer. We are up math and HB on everyone still and up pottery as well on Hammi.

IT: Barb horse attacks our warrior in the south. We win losing a single hp. Barb galley sails into view along western shore! Somebody has mapmaking.

Turn 8-1425 BC: Athens, hoplite>settler. Due in 4 and grows in 2 so will still be at size 4 after the settler. Ah Ha. Caesar just got writing! He established an embassy with us! That’s something I haven’t seen very often. Put Delphi's citizen back on the grass to get best growth rate. Worker due next turn. All other workers plugging away.
My settler is 1 tile from where I want him.
Diplo check: Hmmm, interesting. Caesar has writing but Monty and Hammi don’t. But Caesar only has 58 gold when he had 133 last turn. Yet he doesn’t have any communications to trade. Barbs??? A city getting pillaged is the only thing I can figure. Unless it would cost 75 gold to establish the embassy. I don’t think it would be that much but I am not sure on this size map. (Assuming this has anything to do with that.) Any clarification on this Sirp? Does map size affect the price of embassies?
OK, I get writing and 20 gold from Caesar for Math. I get all Hammi’s gold (56) for Math. He is just going to get it from Caesar anyways. Now he has nothing to offer Rome for writing though. I like the idea of keeping him from those cheap librarys as long as possible. Monty only has 25 gold but I give him math for it anyways.
Lux dropped to 10% and science to 90. Research set to Lit in 13.
I also moved the warrior I had on the choke. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

IT: Barbs moving around.

Turn 9-1400 BC: Delphi, worker>temple. My reasoning is it could really use that whale and fish.
Plenty of time to veto this as well.
Workers complete road on hill between Athens and Pharsa. Move to horse tile and will start irrigating next turn.
Warrior I had on the choke attacks a barb horse, he wins and promotes. Our other warrior up north attacks a barb horse, he wins as well but no promotion. Warrior in south heals up. Settler is where I want him.
MM Athens. Move 1 pop to a forest since it only needs 3 food to grow.

IT: nada

Turn 10-1375 BC: Pharsalos, worker>temple. Feel free to change this.
Move new worker from Pharsa NW, with the intention of roading and mining that grass.
Athens grew to size 6. Lux to 20%.
Knossos founded. Set to a temple.

Diplo check: Babs, I just noticed that Hammi does not know the Romans or Aztecs. He has 4 cities, 2 gold and we are up pottery, writing and HBR.
Rome, has 3 cities, 38 gold and we are up HBR.
Monty has 4 cities, 0 gold and we are up HBR. Monty and Caesar have a ROP.
Just remembered to found embassies!
Embassy with Monty for 32 gold. Teno is size 2 with the shield box full on a settler but the city won’t grow for 7 more turns. :rotfl:
Has 1 reg. spear for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.
Embassy with Hammi costs 34 gold. Babylon is size 3 and building the Oracle. Pulling 7spt and will be done in 32. :rolleyes: 2 reg. spears for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.

Notes to StormRider: Feel free to veto the temple in Knossos. I would have set it to a worker but that would be done in 10 but it won’t grow for 20. It needs workers like yesterday!! I have the citizen set on a coast tile because all tiles in range are 1 food only and working the hill we lose the shield to waste, so I went for the gold.
I also left 1 pop working a forest in Athens in order to get the settler next turn. I figure it’s worth it to get him 1 turn earlier at the cost of 1 food. It will still grow in 3 if MM properly, so we don’t really lose the food anyways.
Sparta’s temple is due in 2, though this could be changed to a granary. I leave all this in your capable hands Stormrider! I think we should let the temple complete but I’m no expert. If I was I wouldn’t be in this game. ;)

Edit: Now that I think on it a little, I believe we should change Sparta's temple to a granary. We can build a library shortly to get that cattle in range.

Good Luck Stormrider.

Here's a pic;
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1375BC.jpg

Here's the game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-1375BC.zip)

ok, I'm posting this from work, so I don't have access to the game at the moment....if necessary I'll edit the comments later once I've looked at the game.

We need workers bad

Yes we do. Good spot.

Sparta-worker>temple

I'd have possibly gotten one more worker out of Sparta before making the switch. I'd have also gone for a granary instead of a temple. I notice that you changed your mind about this in your addendum though. :)

A temple will let us get the cattle which will get us a food surplus of 6/turn instead of the current 4/turn, which will let us grow in 4 turns instead of the current 5. A granary will let us grow in 3 turns. Once we're size 7+, a temple would let us grow in 7 turns, vs a granary in 5 turns.

So, as far as growth goes, a granary is a better option. Of course, a temple does have side benefits, like more culture earlier, and happiness. I'd still say the granary is better, especially considering the upcoming cheaper libraries.

Cool!!! We got Horseback Riding out of that goody hut. Other scout moves closer to choke

Interesting, I got HBR out of the hut too in my shadow of Renata's turn. Definitely a good thing, free techs are nothing to be sneezed at!

He just can’t make up his mind!

That seems pretty characteristic of barbarians in PTW. It's always going to happen in systems where AI is done in a stateless way.

Athens-Hoplite>Barracks. I might change my mind here. Will reevaluate every turn depending on growth etc.

Hmm...it's not like growth in civilization depends on any kind of randomness. I can understand that you might be able to think a little clearer a little down the track, but really, it helps if you can predict where things are going ahead of time. In fact, like in chess, I think one of the things great civilization players can do is 'see' where a city is going some turns into the future.

Babs are building the Oracle

We're out-expanding them while they're happily sitting around building the Oracle. Not a wise move by Hammurabi; I'd much rather have our expansion advantage than some silly wonder...

He will give all his 133 gold for HBR. I am going to wait and check back every turn and see if any other techs (or a worker) become available or see if the price starts dropping.

I think you did well here; this is a marginal decision, but we know we don't want our rivals galloping around on horses right at the moment.

Hmmm. I have 19 shields in the box towards a rax. With the 6th peep working a forest we are getting 11spt. Swap rax to a settler, due next turn and will drop to size 4

Ok, there's nothing wrong with this move as such, but I am going to make a general comment. It seems to me that I told Renata she shouldn't have built the settler so soon, dropping Athens to size 4. Then you don't do that; instead you build the settler as soon as you can without dropping Athens to size 3. There's no reason to try to get settlers so quick, unless there is a specific site you want them to go to that you think might be gone soon. By getting settlers so quickly, you are making our capital less powerful, and making it take longer for future settlers.

My intention was to have Athens at 6/4, with settlers not generally being produced until it was almost size 7 (never ever let it get to size 7 though), this way it only stays at size 4 for a moment, before going back up to size 5. So it's size 5 and 6 almost all the time. This way it's a powerful city able to get lots of commerce and lots of shields. This is why I didn't think it was so bad to save a turn and get our slave worker to mine the unenriched grassland: at size 5 or higher we'd have to work on both the enriched and unenriched grassland anyhow, and so we wouldn't be losing anything most of the time.

We want to build settlers at a sustainable rate. To be precise, we want to get Athens to almost size 7, and then build a settler once every 6 turns.

Don’t even have to think about it. Research set to Writing at best rate

Oh, I wonder what was said to make you think to do this :)

But Caesar only has 58 gold when he had 133 last turn. Yet he doesn’t have any communications to trade. Barbs???

Yes, barbarians pillaging a city is all I can really think of as well. As well as the cost of the embassy of course. But that alone wouldn't do it. I believe embassy costs are related to the distance between capitals, and are proportional to map size. The size of the capital might have something to do with it, but I'm not sure about that.

EDIT: Other possibilities include him being extorted by one of the other civilizations, or him buying communications with the Babylonians from the Aztecs. (Maybe?) Maybe he established embassies with the other civilizations too; not just us? (Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?) Did you notice if the gold of the other civilizations changed this turn?

Good trades to get writing. It turns out that we could still debate which would have been the best course - writing or mathematics :)

Going for mathematics means we have that when we wouldn't otherwise, but so do our rivals. If we had gone for Writing, we'd have got it ahead of Rome, and then be onto Literature sooner.

Good choice to go for Literature; we do want those cheap Libraries.

The city of Tiaxcala really does make things complicated. I'm thinking we would like to deny Rome a source of iron, if possible. That would mean either founding a city in an aggressive position, or founding it not on fresh water.

But, we might be better to concentrate on our own expansion. That Aztec city is just smack bang in the middle of so much nice looking land, it makes our expansion awkard. Certainly, expansion to the furs down there would be a *very* aggressive move. I think we can safely say that the Aztecs will get that.

There's still plenty of land to the west. We would love to be able to claim the entire lake, with 2 more cities around its edges, also the river to the south-west of Thermopylae looks attractive.

Good exploring of that area past Knossos, Matt. We'll have to see what's up there - but that land probably wouldn't be a priority at this stage, since we're going to be in a bit of a race with the Aztecs.

StormRider: You're up and good luck!

-Sirp.

Time for another quiz! This one is entitled Ancient Wonders.

(1) Name the Great Wonders of the ancient world, and list their effects (bonus: list the cities they were built in), including when they become obsolete
(2) Rank the ancient Wonders from most useful to least useful, for the game settings we are playing with. Also compare with other game settings. Explain why you have ranked them so.

-Sirp.

OOh quizzes. What better way to waste time at work. :p

Ancient ages wonders:

1. Colossus (Rhodes). Available with Bronze Working, obsolete with Flight, I think. Adds a multiplier bonus to all commerce generated in that city. I'm not sure how much of a bonus, or whether or not it applies to raw or only uncorrupted commerce.

2. Pyramids (Giza). Available with Masonry, does not become obsolete. Puts a free granary in every one of your cities on the same continent.

3. Great Lighthouse (Alexandria). Available with Map-Making. Gives all of your ships one extra movement, and allows safe travel over (and trade over) sea squares prior to astronomy. Becomes obsolete with Magnetism.

4. Great Library (also Alexandria, I think). Available with Literature, obsolete with Education. Gives the owner every tech known by 2 other (known) civs.

5. Great Wall (China). Gives the city-size defense bonus/ city walls defense bonus (50%?) to defenders in all of your towns (not sure if they need to be on the same land-mass or not). Also doubles defense against barbarians. Available with Masonry? No idea when or if it becomes obsolete.

6. Hanging Gardens (Babylon). Available with Monarchy, obsolete with Steam Power. Gives one content citizen in all of your cities, three in city where it was built.

7. Oracle (somewhere in Greece - name's on the tip of my tongue). Available with Mysticism?, obsolete with Theology. Doubles the effect of temples (which means, I assume, they give 2 content citizens instead of 1).

Rating them all is a little difficult for some of them, since their usefulness depends on factors other than the map settings, so I'll give a rough approximation.

Best: Pyramids. The effect on growth is dramatic - wonderful to have on most continents or pangaea maps, almost useless on an archipelago or anywhere else you have a small continent to start on.

Second-tier (in no particular order): Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Library. I really haven't prioritized the GL in a long time - it's nice to have on Regent level if you want to go to cash economy for a while, but getting it still tends to slow down the tech rate. On monarch it's probably more useful in terms of just keeping up. Colossus is a nice wonder to have if you have an early coastal city with rivers or other bonus trade tiles - it's cheap, as wonders go, has a nice effect, and lasts a good long time. Hanging Gardens I'd rate a notch lower unless you're short luxuries, in which case it can be a godsend, as I just found out in a recent game. Having to detour to monarchy to get it can be a pain, though.

Worst (in no particular order, as they're all either all-but-useless or all-but-useless for these map settings): Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Great Wall. The lighthouse is very occasionally useful on a continents map - if you're going for conquest/domination, for example, your own continent is a pushover, and there's a sea passage to the other continent that's exactly four tiles long. In all other cases it's not worth it -- you can almost always find the other continent(s) by suiciding a galley or three, and often they are reachable safely by astronomy. If this were an archipelago map, I'd probably switch Lighthouse and Pyramids, though. The Oracle's effect is very nice for religious civs, especially with a lux shortage, but its duration is just too too short. And the Great Wall --- not much to say, but if you really need it, you've probably already lost. I'm not sure how many razed towns and lost defenders you'd have to replace to make the GW cost-effective by comparison, but it's more than a couple.

Renata

I think Sirp forgot one question in his quizz. ;)

3) What traits (commercial, militaristic, etc) are associated with each of those wonders? What are the implications?

Originally posted by Sirp
Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?


AI Civs always have RoP and MPP agreements, which you cannot have without established embassies.

Originally posted by Sirp
My intention was to have Athens at 6/4, with settlers not generally being produced until it was almost size 7 (never ever let it get to size 7 though), this way it only stays at size 4 for a moment, before going back up to size 5. So it's size 5 and 6 almost all the time. This way it's a powerful city able to get lots of commerce and lots of shields. This is why I didn't think it was so bad to save a turn and get our slave worker to mine the unenriched grassland: at size 5 or higher we'd have to work on both the enriched and unenriched grassland anyhow, and so we wouldn't be losing anything most of the time.

We want to build settlers at a sustainable rate. To be precise, we want to get Athens to almost size 7, and then build a settler once every 6 turns. -Sirp.

OK, I understand now. I didn't quite get this, though I should have. It makes perfect sense.


Originally posted by Sirp
EDIT: Other possibilities include him being extorted by one of the other civilizations, or him buying communications with the Babylonians from the Aztecs. (Maybe?) Maybe he established embassies with the other civilizations too; not just us? (Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?) Did you notice if the gold of the other civilizations changed this turn?
-Sirp.

I'll bet he bought an embassy with Monty. After seeing the prices for what I bought that would be about right. Caesar nor Monty know Hammi exists yet. We are Hammi's only contact, and it's killing him. There is a jag up that way though, and that situation should change real fast, so Stormrider may want to get what he can for communications ASAP. Like maybe in the next 2 turns.

As far as the quiz is concerned I am at work so I will just say 'ditto' to Renata's post and save myself the typing. I know she is right on all counts.
1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.

Hey Sirp, I've been meaning to ask, whereabouts in Australia are you? What time zone, GMT +10 or what??
Just curious. Myself, I'm in Mountain time which is GMT -7.

1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.


Metalurgy kills the great wall - it does expire.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt_G
and save myself the typing. I know she is right on all counts.
1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.

QUOTE]

No, no!

Walls have a defensive bonus of 50%. The Great Wall doubles this to 100%.

Cities have defence bonus of 50%, metropolises 100%, so the Great Wall is only redundant for size 13+ cities, which is a side issue anyway, as it will have expired before you get size 13+ settlements (at Mettalurgy)

Lee and Nad, Thanks for the correction. I didn't know about it expiring with Metallurgy.

Renata summed it up nicely.

This is my official 'got it'. Matt thanks for the several heads up you gave me - I will be sure to check those out.

I should be able to play tonight. If I can not play until tomorrow, I will give you a heads up.

I got my PTW to work successfully TWICE now! :) sooo add me back on the roster!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Nad


Walls have a defensive bonus of 50%. The Great Wall doubles this to 100%.

Cities have defence bonus of 50%, metropolises 100%, so the Great Wall is only redundant for size 13+ cities, which is a side issue anyway, as it will have expired before you get size 13+ settlements (at Mettalurgy)

And, apparently you need construction for it (I checked). Ahh, well actually that is a bit better, although it still doesn't really change my ranking. It confuses me, though - if towns with walls get total 100% defense bonus with Great Wall and cities (which have their walls, if they have any, rendered obsolete at size 7) only 50%, your defense actually gets *worse* when your city grows? That doesn't seem to make any sense. :(

But onward ---

originally posted by Arutha
I think Sirp forgot one question in his quizz.

3) What traits (commercial, militaristic, etc) are associated with each of those wonders? What are the implications?

Hah, you had to go and ask something I *didn't* know. :) I can't tell you how many times I've been caught with unexpected golden ages because of this. Definitely need to get this bit through my skull.

The bits I can guess or know:

Pyramids: industrious I do know - think there was a second but don't know it -- expansionist?
Oracle: religious?
Great Lighthouse: expansionist, commercial I think
Great Wall: militaristic?
Great Library: scientific?
Hanging Gardens: no idea.
Colossus: no idea

Wow that was pitiful. :)

Renata

Originally posted by Renata
The bits I can guess or know:

Pyramids: industrious I do know - think there was a second but don't know it -- expansionist?
Oracle: religious?
Great Lighthouse: expansionist, commercial I think
Great Wall: militaristic?
Great Library: scientific?
Hanging Gardens: no idea.
Colossus: no idea

Wow that was pitiful. :)

Renata

Pyramids is religious and industrious. Instant GA for Egypt.

Your right on the Great Lighthouse. Instant GA for England. Not sure if there is a new Civ in PTW that would get a GA from this.

Oracle is just religious I believe.

Great Wall: Militaristic and Industrious. Instant GA for China and perhaps 1 of the new Civs. Not sure on that.

Great Library: your right, just scientific.

HG: Scientific and Religious. Instant GA for Babylon.

Colossus: This the one that has nailed me before. The civilopedia says it's Expansionist and Industrious I believe. But if you go into the editor it's also marked as Commercial. So it has 3 traits, making it an instant GA for England, America, and the French. I probably missed 1 or 2 here with the new civs.

Edit: The more I think about it the more I'm not sure about the third trait on the Colossus. I don't think it's Industrious. Can someone verify what it is? This will drive me nuts until I get home and check. :lol:

Matt

Originally posted by Matt_G


Pyramids is religious and industrious. Instant GA for Egypt.

Your right on the Great Lighthouse. Instant GA for England. Not sure if there is a new Civ in PTW that would get a GA from this.

Oracle is just religious I believe.

Great Wall: Militaristic and Industrious. Instant GA for China and perhaps 1 of the new Civs. Not sure on that.

Great Library: your right, just scientific.

HG: Scientific and Religious. Instant GA for Babylon.

Colossus: This the one that has nailed me before. The civilopedia says it's Expansionist and Industrious I believe. But if you go into the editor it's also marked as Commercial. So it has 3 traits, making it an instant GA for England, America, and the French. I probably missed 1 or 2 here with the new civs.
Matt

OK. I checked this out when I got home and I was wrong on a couple of counts.

First the Hanging Gardens. I really screwed up here. :o
It's Industrious. That's it. So no instant GA for anyone.

The Colossus: It's Expansionist, Commercial and Religious. (not Industrious :o)
So the Colossus would be an instant GA for England, Iroquois, Indians, Arabs and the Spanish.

There aren't any new Civs in PTW that are Militaristic and Industrious so the GW is a instant GA for China only.

The aren't any new Civs that are Expansionist and Commercial either, so the Great Lighthouse is a instant GA for England alone.

Shaesha and perhaps others;
There is a data sheet in .pdf form you can download from here that makes a great reference to have when you play. Print it out and and keep it by the computer. It's very handy. You can download it here. (http://www.civfanatics.net/files/civ3/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=531)

Note that it's for PTW, not the original Civ3, though there is one for that as well. The only error I have seen in it is the traits for the Colossus. Commercial is not listed.
HTH
Matt

Speaker: I'm dubious as to whether the AI needs an embassy with another AI to do RoP or MPP deals. If the frequency with which the AI establishes embassies with the player is anything to go by, the AI would rarely establish embassies, and thus rarely be able to implement RoP or MPP deals. It does seem that the AI does establish embassies a little more in PTW.

Matt_g: I'm in Sydney, Australia; I'm not sure what time zone that is to be honest :)

---

I intentionally didn't include a question on what traits are associated with each Wonder, as I don't think that knowing that is necessary to win on higher levels. It's the kind of thing you just check on the spot when considering building a Wonder. I would not be confident as to how well I'd do on such a test...

The Colossus adds one commerce to each tile in the city which is producing at least one commerce. In most cases this will increase a city's commerce output by 50-100%

I understand that the Great Wall increases the defense of cities with walls. I am unsure as to the factor it increases defense by, and I understan that cities size 7+ do not count as having walls. You are right when you say this seems counter-intuitive and silly, Renata. The Great Wall does indeed expire at Metallurgy.

My ranking of the ancient wonders for these game settings is as follows:

Pyramids
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
------
Colossus
Hanging Gardens
Oracle
Great Wall

The wonders above the line have the potential to substantially alter the course of the game. The wonders below the line offer nice bonuses, but not game-altering effects.

I think everyone is aware of the power of the Pyramids. Lots of early expansion, but this wonder also helps right until the end of the game, since captured cities will always have granaries and expand faster, and all those granaries are free, so no maintenance! The Pyramids is always a powerful wonder - unless you're playing an OCC or 5CC or some other city-reduced game, or on a tiny map.

The Great Library is more valuable the higher the difficulty level is. On regent level, cutting off research will slow the tech pace down, but on higher levels it does much less so. The GL is more powerful than the Pyramids on some Deity games.

The Great Lighthouse is *usually* a powerful wonder in this kind of game. Remember Renata, if you're playing a Regent or Warlord level game, and going for a quick-as-possible win, then the main use of the Lighthouse is so you can attack overseas earlier. On higher levels, it has far more uses.

Finding other continents with a 'few suicide galleys' is *not* easy. Manytimes, to find anything, the galley would have to avoid sinking for several turns. I'm not sure, but I think that the chances of sinking are higher on higher levels. I have certainly had such dismal success in Emperor and Deity games with suicide galleys, that I have abandoned using them almost completely.

With the Lighthouse, contact is almost assured: you can move across sea tiles, and you can safely move 2 spaces into ocean tiles, moving 2 spaces back if you don't sight anything. This allows you to make *much* earlier contact, and to be the contact broker.

If you are the *only* civilization which has contact across two or more continents, and you know that no-one else will get contact until the arrival of astronomy (and you can be assured of this, since the AI never uses suicide galleys), you can use this to your immense advantage.

You will get more science discount opportunities from researching technologies already known to civilizations on either continent. You will be able to do science brokering, and map brokering. You may even be able to establish trade routes, and be the only one who is able to trade between the continents.

This advantage can be maintained for half an era, until the advent of astronomy. After that you can get your final payout by brokering contact.

If you're already ahead on science, and the AI has little money to give you, then the Lighthouse won't be that useful, but then if this is the case, you're probably playing on an easy level. If the AI is ahead of you, and has more cash than you, it can be of huge advantage. In Epic 4, my first Deity win, the English built the Lighthouse, and I was happy enough to be the first to see their galley. From that brokering opportunity - that lasted just one turn - I managed to get around half an era's worth of technology, catapulting me from the ancient era well into the middle ages, and going from being last in the world in technology to being just behind the leaders.

Being able to control contact is a *very* powerful thing.

The Colossus is a good wonder, a little underrated by many I feel; it'll get you lots of extra commerce for a long time, if you build it in a good city - but it isn't the game-changer that the top three can be.

The Hanging Gardens are good, they last an era, and are in similiar league to the Colossus.

The Oracle runs out far too early to be useful, otherwise it'd be a nice wonder, especially for religious civilizations.

Finally, the Great Wall is something you don't want your neighbour to have, but you don't care about that much either. I will say though, that many players don't build walls enough; walls are cheap, and do give a nice defensive bonus. Good for border cities that aren't going to grow very fast.

----

Something else I think I forgot to mention before about Republic: we want to try our very hardest to be in Republic when our Golden Age hits. This means trying to avoid war before we get Republic. We've already got a good advantage over our continental opponents. Having a golden age under Republic would catapult us far past them.

-Sirp.

I will play and post tonight

Preturn: Change Sparta to granary.

1) 1350 BC Athens Settler -> Hoplite. Move Settler and Hoplite from Athens towards the great lake. Worker NW of Pharsalos starts road. Warrior in the Land Beyond the Choke moves east and finds barb camp and Wine. Warrior in South and North explore - North finds wounded horse barb. Two workers by Thermopylae move to plains for road/irrigation.

IT Warrior in North fights horse barb and wins (no promo) Warrior in South sees barb a few tiles away

2) 1325 BC Sparta Granary -> Hoplite. Move Settler/Hopi westward. Two workers by Thermopylae road. Warrior of the Choke whacks barb camp ($25) and finds HUT. Warrior of North moves north and finds barb camp. Warrior of South finds barb camp.

IT Nada

3) 1300 BC Warrior of South kills camp ($25). Warrior of the Choke has a nice chat about life and the universe with the Sumarians and learns PHILOSOpHY. Workers road horse by Therm. Warrior of the North kills camp ($25) Settler/Hopi move south. Target: Forest 1s 1SE of cow (on river)

IT Nada

4) 1275 BC Athens Hopi -> Hopi -> Give Athens time to grow from 5 to 6. Next is settler. Warrior of Choke moves to hill. The land beyond the choke is fairly large and fertile. After settling the Great Lake region, I say we stake a claim up here. I am also going to block the choke again soon to prevent the Babs from getting up here (They should be a while before getting MM / galleys) Warrior of North moves N up to the Bab border. Workers by Therm finish road when I realize a weed. All along, the original grassland they were roading when I started was a BG. I did not mine it (Doh). Doing so now. Warrior of South moves N

IT See Bab settlement party (guarded by warrior) two tiles north of Warrior of north. I am going to try to run some interference with the warrior of the North. Horses connected to Athens.

5) 1250 BC Sparta Hopi -> Settler (growth from 5 to 6 next turn). Warrior of South moves N and sees a Barb. Two settlers by Phars move S to start road to soon to be new city. Settler / Hopi move South. Warrior of choke explores more and I see a barb

IT. Babs move South

6) 1225 BC Athen Hopi -> Settler (in 4, growth to size 7 in 4) Warrior of choke kills barb. Worker by Delphi finish irriagtion starts road. MM Sparta to prevent riots next turn. Sparta will grow to size 7 in 5, complete settler in 5) Will time new settler with growth to seven. Warrior of south still fencing with barb. Warrior of Choke kills barb, loses a point. Warrior of North will attempt to block the Babs.

IT Babs Move S.

7) 1200 BC Works by therm finsih mine, irrigate plain. Warrior of Choke explores. Build Argos. Set to Temple (culture to fight Aztecs). Should switch to Library upon Lit.

IT Russia builds Colussus. Jaguar slays barb. Babs move South. They will build a city here.

8) 1175 BC Move workers. Warrior of N moves S. Warrior of S moves N. Warrior of choke explores.

IT Babs move - I was worng

9) 1150 BC. Delphi worker moves to grass for mining. Warriors move around. Warrior of North moves S and finds barb camp. Warrior of Choke finds hut.

IT Babs build Akkad

10) 1125 BC. Athens Settler -> Temple. Move Settler to west. Delphi worker mines. Workers by Therm irrigate. Workers by Phars ove to next tile of plains to irrigate/mine, Warrior of North dies against barb camp. Warrior of choke fortify to get healthy before opening up goddy hut.

Parting notes: Settler should go for plains west of Iron mountainon south of Great Lake nestled by wheat, iron and fish (+ horsies near by) Athens set to temple - can veto. Lit next turn. Juicy land in the Choke. Sparta settler next turn

Rome - 4 cities, we are up HBR and Philo
Aztecs - 4 cities, we are up Philo
Babs - 5 Cities, we are up Philo, HBR, Pottery

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/1125bc map.jpg

Here's the pic.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/1125bc_map.jpg

Well... I gave it a go =o) There were a few slip-ups Sorry!

1100BC - We just got literature - went for Code of Laws so we can head for the
Republic next. Sparta finished their Settler - started them on a library.
Moving the settler and hoplite right along...

1075BC - I am moving one settler on one side of the lake and one on the other.
Popped a hut... We got a skilled warrior. Trying to get some workers to that
cattle next to Athens.

1050BS - Note:The Aztecs are building the Oracle. ACK! I messed this up :(
There was a barbarian approaching Argos so I went after it with our hoplite -
leaving the city unprotected :(

1025BC - Shock of all shocks - the barbarians took 25 gold! Thermopylae went into
civil disorder. Checked the city screen - everyone else looks good. Have a
building a road to the incense. Both settlers are almost in position. I have
another hoplite headed for Argos.

1000BC - Athens just went into civil disorder. I don't understand why :( They
were fine when I just checked them. Our hoplite is in Argos now and the workers
are ready to irrigate the cows. Now it looks like the Aztecs have settled on our
good spot.

975BC - Now Sparta has gone into civil disorder. I'm going to raise the slider.
We have settled Mycenae on the north side of the lake. Got a barbarian camp and
earned back those 25 gold. ahhh a little redemption =o) The 2 warriors we have
exploring - one took out a barbarian and they have a camp very near. Those 2
workers cant irrigate

950BC - Athens finished their temple - started them on a Library. I'm having
trouble finding a spot for that settler. The build city icon isn't coming up.
The 2 barbarians in the north - 1 of them attacked the barbarian camp and didn't
do too well. He's gonna get it now...

925BC - Corinth finished their Barracks. Started them on a Granary. Ottoman
finished the Oracle. I checked with the Babylonians, Romans, and Aztecs... none
of them had any techs we didn't already have. I settled Herakleia by some iron
and cattle wheat near by... but I'm not sure if it will be in our range.

900BC - Thermopylae has finished their granary - they are starting a library.
Sparta is in civil disorder. The Babylonians are working on the Pyramids.

875BC - We completed a road to incense. Order restored in Sparta. Sparta
finished their library - started them on barracks. We got another warrior by
popping a village in the north.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-875BC.zip)

Originally posted by Sirp
I think everyone is aware of the power of the Pyramids. Lots of early expansion, but this wonder also helps right until the end of the game, since captured cities will always have granaries and expand faster, and all those granaries are free, so no maintenance! The Pyramids is always a powerful wonder - unless you're playing an OCC or 5CC or some other city-reduced game, or on a tiny map.


Very interesting game! I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot...

@Sirp: Pryramids also aren't very useful (definately not worth the shields) on an archipelago type map, like GOTM17...

Darkness: The Pyramids are almost always useful. They are less useful on archipelagos, but still very useful. You can go and settle a city on any island, and it grows at double the rate it would otherwise; you also pay less upkeep all game long than you would otherwise.

In my Always War on Deity game (see the Stories & Tales forum)- small map, archipelago - the Mongols (no, not the Indians, or French, or any of those builder types, but the Mongols), built the Pyramids, and they soared past everyone else; they had faster growing cities on all land masses - I attribute their superiority largely to their Pyramids build.

That said, the place where the Pyramids are *really* game unbalancing is a Pangea on a large or hugemap.

-Sirp.

Ok Shaesha, some comments on your turn:

1100BC - We just got literature - went for Code of Laws so we can head for the Republic next. Sparta finished their Settler - started them on a library.

Good move here; we want the Republic ASAP! Good move to change Sparta to library. We want to get those cattle in range.

There was a barbarian approaching Argos so I went after it with our hoplite -

Hmm...hoplites are 3 at defense and 1 at attack. You should almost *never* attack with a hoplite. (I say 'almost' cause I have done it on occasion when I'm desperate! :) )

Athens just went into civil disorder. I don't understand why They were fine when I checked them

Ok, you're going to have to work on fundamentals a little. Any time this happens, try saving the game, and then trying to load the auto-save from the last turn, just to see what went wrong.

Athens finished their temple - started them on a Library

You should probably have vetoed the temple and gone for a library straight away, however good work to switch to a library here, although we do want to avoid Athens going to size 7, so another settler before the library might have been better.



Sparta is in civil disorder.

ok, you are *really* going to have to work on this aspect :)

Most of your turn you made good decisions, but you did let far too many cities go into disorder.

The other major mistake you made was founding Mycenae too near the Aztec city. Only very, very rarely should you build a city only one tile away from another city. This will surely make the Aztecs very angry with us. We'll have to be watchful of them.

You should have given up on the idea of the city being on the lake, and moved it north, to get the spices in range. We're going to have to get a library in the city to beat the Aztecs culturally, and perhaps fight a war with them over it.

One good thing you did was hook up our incense. I was just waiting, not saying anything about this. I suspected that after I said, at the start of the game, that hooking up luxuries was a lower priority, some players would be scared of getting :whipped: and so would avoid hooking them up until I gave the 'ok'. Well, I didn't give the ok, just to see exactly how long this would last.

We now have six cities hooked up to our trade network. It's definitely a good move now!

Also good work on the pre-emptive worker-move down to the cattle to get it ready for when Sparta's borders grow.

Happiness management, and perhaps city placement are your two biggest issues: you had entertainers running in a few cities. You have to get a strong grasp of happiness, and how to keep cities out of civil disorder. Hopefully by the end of this game you'll have a much stronger grasp on it :)

-Sirp.

I forgot to mention in my notes, but after the formation of Argos, I was informed by our advisors that the FP is now an option.

- Stormrider

p.s. Sirp. Any comments on my turn? Always looking for improvement in my playing style.

@ Sirp
Great game and great idea to have a trainings game like that.
Reading the thread I just realise HOW MUCH I do not know or where I should really pay more attention in my games.

Pity that I didn't stumble over this earlier, I would have loved to play.

I will certainly keep coming here.

One question (might be stupid)
Originally posted by Sirp
Hmm...hoplites are 3 at defense and 1 at attack. You should almost *never* attack with a hoplite. (I say 'almost' cause I have done it on occasion when I'm desperate! :) )
-Sirp.
Does it mean that the 3 defence do not count when attacking yourself?

Shevek

Originally posted by Sirp
Darkness: The Pyramids are almost always useful. They are less useful on archipelagos, but still very useful. You can go and settle a city on any island, and it grows at double the rate it would otherwise; you also pay less upkeep all game long than you would otherwise.


According to the manual, the civolopedia, and this site, the Pyramids are only effective on the continent on which they are built (like Sun Tzu and Bach's). It's been a few games since I've both built the pyramids and settled on a second land mass, but I am 99% certain that those second-continent or island cities did *not* get the pyramids effect.

So I don't get this comment. :(

Renata

Originally posted by Shevek

One question (might be stupid)

Does it mean that the 3 defence do not count when attacking yourself?

Shevek

That's correct. If you attack another unit, the results are based on your unit's attack value (modified in this case by the attack vs. barbs bonus - what is it on Monarch, anyway?) versus the defender's defense value (modified by terrain or whatever else might apply). Your own defense value only comes into play when someone else attacks you.

Renata

I have not looked at the save as I'm at work, so this comment is based on the fact that Sirp said that new city is 1 tile away from one of Monty's cities.

Perhaps we should build a settler out of it at size 2 with no food and abandon it. (I think that's how you do that. I have never done it.) With that aggressive a placement, we will probably burn our GA in Despotism. Monty will be on us ASAP. Maybe even build a worker at size 1 if that can be done like the settler trick.

Edit: Or we could lay some smack down on him and raze his city, if we think it can wait till we get Republic.

Just throwing that out for discussion. :)

Renata: you're right and I'm stupid :)

gee it's been a while since I've gotten the Pyramids. Nothing like running a Training Day Game to bring up some glaring omissions as to what you know about the game!

So, embarassing correction: The Pyramids start becoming good when you are planning to build at least six or so cities on your starting landmass, the more cities the better. If you are on a very small island, then indeed they are not terribly useful.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Renata: you're right and I'm stupid :)


I'm sorry, I just had to quote that. :lol:

Just kidding. Probably just so I don't get a swelled head, I also found out today that this comment of mine from page 2

The food bonus is only +1 (wine or game), and it's on plains. In this case the despotism penalty kills it, so I might as well mine for the shields.

is incorrect. Game is actually plus 2 (manual's wrong again), as several people pointed out in the GOTM16 strategy/discussion thread.

Live and learn,
Renata

stormrider: Yeah sorry for not commenting on your turn earlier. Here goes...

4) 1275 BC Athens Hopi -> Hopi -> Give Athens time to grow from 5 to 6.

We're building alot of military in Athens when it *still* doesn't have a barracks. It would be nice to be able to start getting veteran hoplites out.

In my opinion, it's a more common mistake of Regent/Monarch-level players to feel they have to build barracks too early, hating the 'inefficiency' of spending shields on regular troops. Here we're doing the mistake in reverse! We're not getting barracks for too long, and so churning out too many regular troops.

Regular hoplites aren't so bad, as they're probably still better than veteran spearmen, but veteran hoplites would be really nice.

Ditto with not hooking up the luxuries. We have six cities hooked up to our trade network by the end of your turn, but no work on hooking up the incense. Lots of players make hooking up luxuries a priority, but we're going the other way. Now that we have eight cities and seven workers, I think we can afford to spare the resources to do it.

Athens Settler -> Temple

Hmm...is this meant to be a prebuild for a library? :)

That's what it should be: a library is cheaper and will do more for us in Athens than a temple will. Remember we're scientific, libraries are going to be our bread-and-butter as far as cultural improvements go. We'll want temples too of course, but they're generally less beneficial and more expensive (for us) than libraries.

Rome - 4 cities, we are up HBR and Philo

If you mean that Rome has 4 cities, then you're wrong; they have 5 cities, you have to add in their capital.

---

Corinth building a barracks is questionable in my mind. The one thing it needs in my mind is workers, as it's not going to be productive enough to build many troops even after the barracks is done. This isn't a terribly bad move, but keep in mind that we want barracks in our core cities.

Other than these comments, you did very well. You explored well, and it paid off, with a bonus discovery from a hut (btw guys, the harder the level, the less and less discoveries you're going to get from huts. I very rarely get discoveries from huts in the games I play these days, unless I'm expansionistic).

Argos was founded in a good location. It should be a powerful city. We've kept our cities advantage over the AI, and are looking like we're really going to dominate our starting landmass.

The Roster:

Matt_g
Stormrider
Shaesha <--- Just played
Sirp <--- UP NOW
Renata <--- On Deck

I'm going to play right now.

-Sirp.

I'm sorry, I just had to quote that.

It's ok; I wouldn't like giving players the wrong idea, and if I want to run a TDG, and say things that are wrong, I can expect to be publically humiliated :)

Anyhow, one of the reasons I wanted to run the quizzes is to show how you don't have to know that much to be able to win on high levels. I can win on Deity, and uhh....we can all see that there are a few glaring gaps in my knowledge.

Oh yes, about quizzes, it's time for another one!

Corruption, Waste, and the Forbidden Palace
---
(1) What are Corruption and Waste? What do they do?
(2) What are the ways to fix Corruption and Waste? What is the Forbidden Palace and what does it do?
more subjectively,
(3) We can now build the Forbidden Palace in our game. Where should we think about building it?

-Sirp.

(IT) 875BC: Veto library in Athens for settler. We'll build a library. Luxuries cut to 10%. Delphi switched to a much cheaper library (2 turns) instead of a temple (12 turns) to get the whales and fish in range.

We do need *some* defense, so Thermopylae is switched to a horseman. It has a barracks, so it can build military for us.

Cattle just outside of Sparta's borders is *mined* - irrigating it would improve our food surplus from 5 to 6, and that wouldn't give any benefit at all.

(1) 850BC: Athens builds settler, set to build a library. We need to start pushing up past the choke. There's a heap of fertile land up there!

We discover Code of Laws, and start towards The Republic, of course!

Ok, we deal with Rome: Map Making (monopoly), World Map, 60 gold, for Literature, HBR, and Code of Laws (Monopoly), and our World Map. Expensive, yeah, but that's what buying a monopoly tech can cost you.

We then sell Code of Laws to Montezuma for 50 gold and his World Map.

We then sell our World Map to Hammurabi for his World Map and 50 gold. He *still* doesn't have communications with anyone else remember. Let's see how long this'll last for :)

Guess what? That land up past the choke point wraps round, and Babylon has access to it through another choke point on the northern end of the continent. Looks like the race is on, us vs Babylon to see who can colonize more of it!

(2) 825BC: Our warrior in the south beats a couple of Roman warriors to a barbarian encampment by one turn and gets 25 gold. I whip out the library in Knossos.

(3) 800BC: Pharsalos builds Library. Changed to Worker.

(4) 775BC: Sparta builds a settler and now has the second cattle in range. This means it can grow every 2 turns. This is the first time in our game that growth rates have outstripped shield production for getting settlers. However at the moment Sparta is building a galley, which will be followed by workers. It'll actually get to size 7, but we really want one galley, and it grows so fast that that's not going to matter much.

(5) 750BC: Thermopylae builds our first offensive military unit: a horseman. Set to build a library. Delphi's borders expand, instantly transforming it from a backwater to a powerful fishing town. Hmm...I decide to switch it from worker to galley, and Sparta from galley to worker.

Ok, our settler/hoplite pair is in position to found an aggressive city near the Romans, cutting them off from iron. We'll likely surrender the southern wedge of fertile land to them and the Aztecs, but we do want to contain any expansion toward us.

(6) 730BC: Athens builds library. It's set to building a settler, and Sparta builds a worker - it's set to building another. Ephesus is founded in the south, near Rome.

The Babylonians have *finally* researched a great invention...pottery! They still don't have contact with anyone else.

I start irrigating grassland now, as we have 12 turns to Republic, and it's going to be real useful real soon.

(7) 710BC: Barbarian warrior attacks our hoplite/settler pair. Our hoplite wins, after losing one, and now a barbarian horseman is in view. Oh boy, there are going to be lots of barbarians up in that area, we're going to be very thankful that we have hoplites I think. :)

Corinth builds a worker -> hoplite. It has a barracks, and we'd love to have a couple of veteran hoplites roaming around.

Pharsalos builds a worker -> temple; it's time to start rolling out the happiness improvements.

We start on the tedious business of starting to build a road up toward Knossos.

(8) 690BC: Uhh...some Aztec troops are at our borders. Are they wanting to attack us now? They have a jag outside Mycenae, and a jag and archer on the border with Argos. I move our horseman in position to counter any attack. Workers are moved back.

This reminds me, hooking up that iron at some point would be good. That way, we could upgrade warriors -> swordsmen for instant military power.

(9) 670BC: The jag near Mycenae heads north. Going for some barbarians maybe? I trade WM with him, since he'll know where the barbarian encampments are. But there don't seem to be any up there. Going to contact Babylon?

The jag near Argos withdraws, but the archer skirts along the border.

With the bonus from forest-cutting, Sparta is switched to building a barracks. It'll have to grow to size 7, but it can handle that. We do need cities which can produce troops fast if needed.

Thermopylae has grown to size 6 and would go into disorder, so I move our horseman back there, for MP.

(10) 650BC: I'm really not sure what the Aztecs are playing at exactly. Their jag continues to skirt our borders in the north. A barbarian approaches Corinth, which has a worker right next to it. I have to move Corinth's defense out onto the worker to defend him, while I move Pharsalos' defense into Corinth, leaving Pharsalos undefended, something which I'm not willing to do with a jag so near the border, so I move the horse from Thermopylae to Pharsalos, and have to set an entertainer in Thermopylae.

Warrior up north disperses a barbarian encampment, getting $25.

Sparta has happiness problems, but I adjust bonus grassland -> fresh water, to get it more luxuries and that keeps people happy.

----

We have 11 cities.
Rome has 8 cities, and is -philosophy, which we have a monopoly on.
Azteca has 9 cities, and is -philosophy, -map making.
Babylon has 6 cities, and is -philosophy, -literature, -map making, -horseback riding

Babylon *still* doesn't have contact with Azteca or Rome. We can't get a great deal out of selling contact either, so I say let it last as long as it lasts!

The hoplite/settler pair in the north is intended for the wines right next to the barb encampment. This way the encampment can be popped and we guarantee ourselves a source of wines.

We're really a little short on defense here guys. we now have 11 workers, which is starting to get to a reasonable number (we'll want 30+ eventually though).

We'll almost certainly want to revolt to Republic as soon as we can. Especially with the Aztecs looking like they might want war with us: we want our golden age to be in Republic, not despotism! Also, if Monty does attack, try to deny him any victories with a jag. This will deny him his Golden Age.

Oh yes, just a note: I noticed that some of you have been checking diplomacy with each of our rivals every single turn. While this isn't a bad move, it's not something I do to be honest. Why not? Well, it's tedious, especially at this stage in the game, where turns otherwise go fairly fast, and in most cases it doesn't gain alot. If you have a technology, and you want to trade it at the first opportunity before anyone else does, then yes it's a good idea. Otherwise, if they discover a technology, you'll learn about it soon enough, you don't have to check every single turn.

The other main reason to check every turn is to buy workers. This used to be incredibly effective as it'd only cost 40 gold for a worker, and if you did it early on, it'd give you a huge advantage, and cripple your opponent. I considered this so effective it was borderline exploitive, and though I'd often buy workers if I saw them available, I wouldn't go into diplomacy every turn to see if there were some available. These days, workers are more reasonably priced, so these concerns are lessened.

I'm not saying there's anything bad about checking out each rival each turn, but I am saying that it's not something you have to do to be a high level player if you don't want to do it. I like concentrating on aspects of the game that involve strategy and skill, rather than aspects (like this, imho), that involve little or no skill, but are simply mechanical.

I mention this mainly because when I was a fairly bad player, I would read articles, tips, and strategies of others, and concluded that to be a good player, you had to primarily concern yourself with perfecting a mechanical playing style, that I knew would drain (for me at least) all fun out of the game. It wasn't until later that I realized it was possible to win on Emperor/Deity and still have lots of fun. (although before one of the patches, Deity did have limited fun value. It was fun the one time I beat it back then, but I'm not sure if I would have liked to repeat that gruelling experience too many times. Kudos to Firaxis for making Deity both fun and very challenging, even if it took several patches to do so).

Renata, you're up! Matt_g is on deck.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-650BC.zip)

Sirp,

Thanks for the review. Here is what was or wasn't going on in my head:

I agree we would lie veteran units. However, by making that extra Hopi in Athens before the settler, I MM Athens to grow to seven and produce settler at same time. I then had an instant escort for the settler

I did intend that Athens switch to Library. As I qwas rushing through my writeup, I infered, but did not actually say that the temple was a place holder.

Duh, I forgot to add the capital. I thought the AI city count was too low.

I inhereted the barracks in Corinth from Matt who left it up to a future player to possibly switch to Granary. I did nothing with this city and left it 'as is'. I should have mentioned that it my parting notes

Originally posted by Sirp

Corruption, Waste, and the Forbidden Palace
---
(1) What are Corruption and Waste? What do they do?
(2) What are the ways to fix Corruption and Waste? What is the Forbidden Palace and what does it do?
more subjectively,
(3) We can now build the Forbidden Palace in our game. Where should we think about building it?
-Sirp.

1) Lost shields and lost commerce (other way around technically, I think, but I tend to use them interchangeably) due to distance from the capital and/or forbidden palace, and/or excessive number of cities.

2) Ways to fix: you get improvement if you
- are connected to the capital via road or harbor
- have a courthouse (and later, a police station)
- are in We Love the King Day
Sometimes, all of these together won't redeem a city; sometimes all of them together will bring a city from 1 spt up to an artillery or a cav in 10 turns.

The forbidden palace acts as a second capital with regards to corruption/waste, so can improve the output of more distant cities than if you were relying on just the palace.

3) Need to look at the save. Unless I get a leader from a very early war (in which case I will build it in a central location in the conquered territory), I generally like to build it fairly close to my capital (how close depends on map size - I want no less than 4 or 5 uncorrupted shields per turn). If I do build it close I try to put it in a town with good potential in a central location. That way the option is open to move the palace later if the right opportunity presents itself, and little will be lost to corruption in the original core.

I prefer to (but am not always able to) build the FP early, and usually manage somewhere in the range of 500 BC to 500 AD.

Renata

ps Got it (well technically not -- I'm not at home and can't download yet :p ), and plan to play late tonight or early tomorrow.

oh, one more thing that I think I forgot: We want to whip the library out of Mycenae as soon as the shields needed get down to 19. This will be pretty close to the time we discover the republic, so just stay in despotism long enough to whip out the library. This'll help us win the culture war with the Aztecs: even if they build a temple in there, we'll still get more culture, and a library would be expensive for them to build.

-Sirp.

The soon-to-be Greek Republic in 450 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-450BC.JPG

Preturn: Wow, the map sure has opened up since the last time I played. The north country's nice except for lack of water - will take eons to get irrigation up there with all that jungle in the way.

IT: The barb by Corinth impales himself on our hoplite.

(1) 630 BC: Athens produces settler (no escort available), set to barracks. If I'm calculating right, we can get the barracks plus the next settler by the time Athens grows to size 7 again at 10 shields/ 3 food per turn. After that Athens'll be able to build vet hoplites between settlers. Settler sent toward Knossos w/o escort - that warrior up in the north can be MP for a town up there once he gets back. Settler/hoplite pair continue toward wine, killing barb horsie on the way. The Corinth/Pharsalos/Thermopylae defender shuffle is partially reversed - the river south of Corinth slows us down. At least it's fast in the outward direction. Worker near Argos starts on forest chop - will need to remember to set Argos to something that can absorb the shields after the library finishes.

(2) 610 BC: Sparta goes to size 7, gets a taxman. Barracks built, worker next to shed some pop before temple build. Defender shuffle completed. Thermo's ok at size 6 for for now, so library --> hoplite. Think I can build worker next to keep pop under 7. Pharsalos switched to barracks from temple, due in 8 .. I may change my mind about this again, but the town's only size 3 and we don't really need a temple yet. Military we do need. Our hoplite up north kills a barb horse, which takes us one step out of the way to the city site. I really really really need to know the odds for attack vs. barbarian on this level to know how much of a risk that was. We win with 1 hp damage, though. Our reg warrior in Knossos attacks the other barb horse and wins with no damage, promoting in the process. More forestry begun near Corinth. One bit of silliness - hit 'mine' for worker near Athens when I meant to irrigate, so irrigation will be delayed one turn. Diplo check (because I wanna :p ) --- looks like Babylon's finally met the other two civs, although they're still backward..

(3) 590 BC: Delphi galley ---> galley. Knossos goes into unrest - I had forgotten about the whipping there since I read the the turn report lo these many hours ago. Warrior will be moved back, at any rate. Loss of one turn on hoplite. Settler pair arrives at wine, galley heads southeast. Various Aztec forces still lurking about our southern borders, but nothing overtly threatening. Our southeastern warrior is heading for a barb camp down there but looks like the Romans will beat us to it by half a turn. Unless they get killed first, of course.

(4) 570 BC: Sparta worker --> worker. Thessalonica founded on wine tile as requested, collecting 25 gold, starts worker.

(5) 550 BC: Athens completes barracks, starts hoplite. Working forest plus mined incense hill gets us hoplite/settler plus growth in five. So settler will be up next. Here's a thought for the short-term. Switch our settler factory from Athens to Sparta? True, it's further away from where we'll be settling than Athens is, but it's also the ideal +5 food (which Athens isn't), and has the shields to keep up. Thermopylae hoplite ---> worker, due in 2, same as growth. The hoplite will stay home as MP for the short-term. (Republic in 2.) Babylon builds the Pyramids - good for them! ;) Our hoplite at Thessalonica attacks barb warrior and wins w/o damage - with luck the empty town willl also draw that stray barb horse back away from Knossos - that warrior is just too vulnerable.

(6) 530 BC: Yep, barb horsie took the bait. Sparta worker --- temple (will be hurried some with forestry). With one turn left on republic, science down to 20%, netting us a whopping +21. Some plans for the revolution: libraries finish in Herakleia and Argos next turn. The ones in Mycenae and Ephesus will finish the turn after that (pop rushes, in Ephesus with help from forestry). I am working on the assumption that culture does not accumulate during revolutions, so would like to wait until the borders expand. ETA on that about five turns, unless I'm calculating wrong, which will leave the anarchy for the next player. If the Aztecs *are* inclined to attack, that's probably when they'll do it. At the moment there are no Aztec units in sight (other than Xochicalco's defense).

(7) 510 BC: Dead barb horsie. Republic in, research started on currency at max. Athens hoplite --> settler. Thermopylae worker - temple. Corinth hoplite - hoplite. Argos library - barracks. Herakleia library - temple. Mycenae library rushed. Ephesus --- arrgh -- I overlooked that it wasn't at size 2 yet. Needs 4 more turns. Nothing I could have done to speed growth, though. Next player can decide if it's worth waiting for. The town is under cultural pressure from both sides now, with Tlaxcala's borders expanded, but we're leading Aztecs and Rome in the culture department (Rome by a lot), so I don't think it's under heavy threat just yet. We *do* beat the Romans to the southern barb camp, but they spawned a horse, so Rome will probably get it after all. Aztecs have a jag/settler pair heading north from Xochicalco. Sparta's sixth citizen has to be put on the fresh water again to prevent revolt.

(8) 490 BC: Yep, the Romans get the barb camp. Mycenae library - barracks. Can be changed to anything worth at least 20 shields, as the forestry will finish in seven. Worker there should road the spice next. Sparta put on zero growth with high shields pending temple completion. Should finish in four with forestry. We trade our world map to everyone, collecting nothing much. Babylon's picked up another tech, possibly from Rome, because Rome now has money (130-something), and Babylon's broke. Worker near Herakleia moved onto iron mountain.

(9) 470 BC: Well, I miscalculated *again*. Temple in Sparta due in four, needing 25 shields, making 8 per turn. Can't see any way to improve the situation, short of increasing lux, and I don't want to lose 2 turns on currency for a one-turn-faster temple. Frustrating, though -- I assume I will figure out eventually where I'm miscalculating, but I *always* seem to be off by one shield when I try. Rhodes founded on choke north of Knossos, set to worker. The northern warrior will be there next turn as defense.

(10) 450 BC: Athens builds another settler; set to hoplite. Pharsalos barracks- hoplite. Border expansions at Herakleia and Argos - Mycenae will be next turn. We steal a tile from Xochicalco. :D Library can be rushed in Ephesus next turn. I've switched Corinth to horseman so as not to waste any shields - next player can still switch back and waste only two, though, if unit needed faster. Iron hook-up due in 8. We don't really have much in the way of warriors to upgrade (7, and 3 of those are regular), but I guess you can't have everything. We have a spare hoplite on the iron as well right now and our horseman is south of Argos spying on the Aztecs. One Aztec archer in view near Ephesus. City count: us 13, Aztecs 9, Romans 9, Babylon 7. Currency due in 4, now at -17 gpt; we still have 245 gold left. We're up Philo and Lit on the babs, just philo on the other two. Rome will offer WM plus all his gold (118) for philo; the other two are broke.

I've been thinking about an FP location. If we are planning at one point or another to take out the Aztecs (and with them having good open land and a lux we don't have, I'm tempted), then Argos, with bonus food, good production, and fresh water, would be a good spot for it to build by hand. That would, of course, leave most of the land north of the choke rather corrupt, but it's going to be a long long time to get that land halfway productive anyway due to the lack of fresh water up there. Babylonian territory is crippled by lack of rivers; Roman territory is decent but not as good as Azteca. They do have a smidge of desert, which may be important in the future (oil); there's not much desert or tundra on the map so far and we have none of what there is.

As far as wonders, I suspect it may be too late to start on any of the early ones and still expect to get them. Athens and Sparta are our best shield producers currently, at 10 and 8 spt respectively; both will go up once we're a republic.

Anyway, that's it for now. Good luck whoever's up next (Matt?) and vive la revolution!

450 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-450BC.zip)

Renata

I will comment on Renata's turn when I get the chance. Here is the current roster:

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- On deck
Shaesha
Sirp
Renata <--- Just played

The north country's nice except for lack of water - will take eons to get irrigation up there with all that jungle in the way.


It will indeed. The land up there is fertile enough, but it is a long way away from our capital, and I don't think it will ever be terribly productive for us. Not before the game is won or lost anyhow.


Athens produces settler (no escort available)


Because of the lack of an escort, I actually sent this settler west, and settled in the jungle in my shadow. Your move was fine though, a little more risky perhaps.


that warrior up in the north can be MP for a town up there once he gets back


That's good thinking, although in my shadow that warrior barely survived, with all those barbarian horsemen around!


Our hoplite up north kills a barb horse, which takes us one step out of the way to the city site.


Do you mean you attacked with the hoplite? Umm...really I don't think this was a good move. Far better to let them attack us! The odds are +50%, I think, but you'd have better odds with them attacking us. In my shadow I just went around them, and got to the city site fine.

If you had lost the hoplite, I hope you would have done the sensible thing and settled the settler where he stood.


One bit of silliness - hit 'mine' for worker near Athens when I meant to irrigate, so irrigation will be delayed one turn.


It is generally considered acceptable to reload the game in the case of a misclick. Of course, your last save might have been at the beginning of the turn, and you didn't want to go back that far.


(3) 590 BC: Delphi galley ---> galley


Good move, maximize the chance of us being the first to make contact with civilizations on foreign continents.


Knossos goes into unrest - I had forgotten about the whipping there


I must admit that the same thing happened in my shadow. It's normal to assume that a size 1 city just isn't going to go into civil disorder.


Switch our settler factory from Athens to Sparta? True, it's further away from where we'll be settling than Athens is, but it's also the ideal +5 food (which Athens isn't), and has the shields to keep up.
..... Republic in 2


Considering the Republic is coming so soon, don't you think Athens is about to become a +5 food city too? :)

They'll probably both churn out a few workers and settlers for a while. Athens will probably stop doing that first though, growing to a size 12 power-center, while Sparta keeps building workers and settlers. Remember, when we are in Republic, Sparta and Athens will be able to produce a worker a turn between them!

Babylon builds the Pyramids - good for them!

These are probably our preferred civilization to get the Pyramids. Their growth has been badly hampered by surrounding terrain, and I don't think the Pyramids will help them too much. Still, it might make them halfway competitive.


I am working on the assumption that culture does not accumulate during revolutions, so would like to wait until the borders expand. ETA on that about five turns,


Culture does not accumulate during anarchy. But uhh...were you :smoke: some of the incense near Athens when you made this decision? :)

I can't see how the border expansion of Herakleia, Mycenae, and Ephesus a little earlier could possibly justify delaying Republic by 4 turns or so. The expansion of Ephesus' borders would hmm...make Antium very marginally more likely to flip to us, and that's about it.

The expansion of Herakleia's borders would make Xochilaco marginally more likely to flip, as would the expansion of Mycenae's.

The only cultural influence we *really* wanted was the tiles right between Xochicalco and Mycenae, and all you need for that is for Mycenae to have more culture than Xochicalco. Since we can assume Xochicalco has no culture at all (if it does have a culture-building we will surely fall behind it in anarchy anyhow), all we need is 1 culture in Mycenae. The library will produce culture on the turn it's produced, so you should have immediately revolted after that.

I can also maybe, very maybe, see you waiting until a couple of other cities could pop-rush libraries, but it wouldn't be so criminal to just rush them with cash once we're in Republic.

Anyhow, Republic is *much* better than Despotism in almost all situations, we want to be there asap, and here you unnecessarily delayed us by five turns.


Ephesus --- arrgh -- I overlooked that it wasn't at size 2 yet. Needs 4 more turns. Nothing I could have done to speed growth, though. Next player can decide if it's worth waiting for.


Umm...we're already waiting long enough! We want Republic asap!


I assume I will figure out eventually where I'm miscalculating, but I *always* seem to be off by one shield when I try.


hmm....really? Wish I could help here, but I'm really not sure what'd be wrong with your calculations without knowing more :)


Rhodes founded on choke north of Knossos, set to worker. The northern warrior will be there next turn as defense.


Good work here. Rhodes can act as a canal-city into that inland sea. This could be very valuable strategically later on. Specifically, if we want to attack the Babylonians, we could sail ships into the inland sea, and strike at their core. Now what was it you were saying about the Babylonians having built the Pyramids? :) I said we couldn't build the Pyramids, I didn't say we couldn't capture them!

Other than the mistake with delaying revolution, your turn was very solid Renata. I will discuss your comments on the Forbidden Palace soon.

-Sirp.

Got it.

Sirp - I have heard over the #civfanatics that there may be still room. I still would like to sign up for this game to fill in a missing player.

BTW, if I do Join in, what Version of PTW are we using?.

Here is the list of TDG I have went trhough:


Civ3 Traning Certificates
Basic Training of Civ3 (Self-Tought Cheftan)
Pad 1 R SG (Teacher: Chieftess Regent)

on corruption...


1) Lost shields and lost commerce (other way around technically, I think, but I tend to use them interchangeably) due to distance from the capital and/or forbidden palace, and/or excessive number of cities.


Yeah, these terms are alot like 'resources' and 'luxuries', the term 'resources' can refer to them both collectively, just like 'corruption' is often used to refer to both.


2) Ways to fix: you get improvement if you
- are connected to the capital via road or harbor
- have a courthouse (and later, a police station)
- are in We Love the King Day
Sometimes, all of these together won't redeem a city; sometimes all of them together will bring a city from 1 spt up to an artillery or a cav in 10 turns.

The forbidden palace acts as a second capital with regards to corruption/waste, so can improve the output of more distant cities than if you were relying on just the palace.


Yes, this pretty much covers it. Except that you can also choose a Commercial civilization!

A city has a certain corruption percentage that is worked out. A courthouse might be able to cut corruption by 20%. However, corruption can go over 100%. It could be 160% in some distant colony for instance. Building a courthouse in such a city and cutting it down to 140% isn't going to do anything for you!

If a city is producing more than one shield, you know its corruption is below 100%, and a courthouse is potentially useful. Cities always produce at least one shield, even if they are hopelessly corrupt.


3) Need to look at the save. Unless I get a leader from a very early war (in which case I will build it in a central location in the conquered territory), I generally like to build it fairly close to my capital (how close depends on map size - I want no less than 4 or 5 uncorrupted shields per turn). If I do build it close I try to put it in a town with good potential in a central location. That way the option is open to move the palace later if the right opportunity presents itself, and little will be lost to corruption in the original core.

I prefer to (but am not always able to) build the FP early, and usually manage somewhere in the range of 500 BC to 500 AD.


Building the FP early is the only way to go. Getting your FP online is a BIG step to dramatically improving your economy and moving towards winning the game.

The middle of the Middle Ages is the latest you should have your FP built by.

Let's examine for a moment how corruption works:

There are two types of corruption...

(1) Corruption that effects cities based on which number city they are from the capital. The city closest to the capital suffers the least, the city second closest to the capital suffers a little more. The city third closest to the capital suffers a little more again. This corruption does not care about the actual distance from the capital, only about which 'place' it is.

Because of this corruption ,if you build a new city close to the capital, every city which is further away from the capital than that city will have slightly increased corruption. Because of this, it is not a good idea to build a 'half city' near the capital just to get a few extra tiles.

Note that in Civilization I and Civilization II building a city even on the outskirts of your empire could potentially increase corruption in inner cities. This is no longer the case in Civilization III. Building a new city only has the potential to increase corruption in cities that are further from the capital than it.

(2) Corruption based on distance from the capital. This works simply according to the number of tiles from the capital or the Forbidden Palace.

The effect the FP has on (2) is that it will be the minimum of the distance between the capital and the FP, I believe. I understand the the effect it has on (1) is to increase the 'optimal number of cities'. Essentially, even if you built your FP in your capital - if that were possible, it would help with (1) alot, thought it wouldn't help with (2) at all.

The implication of all this is that an FP built fairly near your capital can easily be 75-80% as effective as an FP built far away from it. Then factor in that nearer your capital is likely to come earlier, and be in a more developed area. It also doesn't rely on the chance of you getting a Great Leader (and even if you do get a GL, why not use him (are there any female GLs?) on an actual Wonder?)

I used to think that a Great Leader early was necessary to having a good game. Now I am always confident I can do well without one. I usually build my FP close to my capital, and only build it far away if I happen to get a Great Leader at a convenient time to. (but at such time, it's often tempting to use them to rush the Great Library or Pyramids).

Anyhow, Argos is a reasonable choice for the FP, especially if we want to take out some or all of Azteca. I had an even closer idea in mind: Thermopylae. It could build the FP in 20 turns or less, and get it running quick. It'd make us have a nice, powerful, solid core.

We'll see how many shields we can get Argos producing though. If we can get it churning out 5+, then that's a definite consideration.

Just one other thing, lots of people seem to like this idea of building the FP near your capital, and then moving your capital. Generally, if you're planning to move your capital, presumably you're moving it to somewhere that is currently fairly corrupt. In that case, you're abandoning your core to a degree (it'd still have the FP there, but there is no denying it will be substantially more corrupt without the palace), in favor of another location that simply doesn't have nearly as much infrastructure yet.

I have *never* been in a game where I have thought that moving the palace would give me more of a chance of winning the game. I can conceive of such a possibility if one had a truly dismal starting location.

So, I have never even tried this strategy, and except perhaps on a largish map, I don't think much of it in most cases. If I build the FP near the capital, there the FP and the capital will stay.

-Sirp.

CivGeneral: You are welcome to join; the game will be played with 1.14f. Let us know if you have that version, in which case you're in.

Cheers,

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
CivGeneral: You are welcome to join; the game will be played with 1.14f. Let us know if you have that version, in which case you're in.

Cheers,

-Sirp.

I have both 1.14 and 1.21 Instalation patches with me so that I can freely Downgrade to a 1.14

You would say That I am a Multi-Version user now ;)
Thanks to the Tip the EA and Cheftess gave me on downgrading from a 1.21 to a 1.14 :).

I am gona have to look back to catch up on the lessons.

CivGeneral: Very well; welcome to the game.

The roster:

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- On deck
Shaesha
Sirp
Renata <--- Just played
CivGeneral

Preturn: Check out builds looking for anything that could be whipped. Sparta has a taxman and is 17 shields from a temple. I :whipped: it. We revolt! Pull 6 turns :(
Scroll through and hire entertainers as needed.

IT: nothing

Turn 1-430 BC: worker tasks. Thermo riots. I knew it would but it was a calculated risk. If I had hired enough clowns it would have starved in 5. It should make it through the anarchy without starving now.

IT: Romans are building the Great Library.

Turn 2-410 BC: not much.

IT: Monty sure is moving a bunch of troops around. Makes me a little nervous.

Turn 3-390 BC: Move settler and that’s about it.

IT: Barb galley attacks and dies. Ours is untouched.

Turn 4-370 BC: Zzzzzz

IT: Our galley crew watches an elite Roman archer take out a barb camp.

Turn 5-350 BC: Move the settler and set some worker tasks. Herakleia grew this turn so I have to hire another clown. BTW, I had miscalculated with Thermo. I didn’t need to do that. It would not have starved. I had looked at the red symbols in the food box instead of the actual numbers. My :smoke:

IT: nada

Turn 6-330 BC: We are a Republic! Go through and fire all the clowns. Knossos changed from hoplite to harbor. It needs the food and doesn’t have a barracks. We should be making nothing but vets IMHO. It can get one from Athens. Boy do we need the happiness improvements! I have to run 20% lux to keep Sparta and Thermo from rioting. Slider is at 4.4.2 with Currency in 5 at
–10gpt. Diplo check: Hammi has squat. Down Philo and Lit.
Monty has Construction. He’s cautious and so is Hammi. To be expected with us switching gov’t.
Rome also has Construction. It would take Philo and 145 gold to get it from him. Monty wants even more. See what happens when Currency comes in.

IT:

Turn 7-310 BC: Not much. Everyone plugging away. Move settler, galley etc.

IT: Barb galley attacks and dies. Ours is a vet now.

Turn 8-290 BC: Athens hoplite>settler. Sparta riots. Damn! I had seen it was going to grow and just spaced it. :smoke: I don’t want to run 30% lux just for this 1 city so I hire a taxman. Change Sparta to a worker. Maybe :whipped: the temple there wasn’t such a good idea.
Babs are building the Great Library. A jag moves into our territory next to Ephesus. We have a elite warrior and a reg. hoplite in the city. I’m going to just wait and see what he does. If I had vet hoplites everywhere and about 10 or 15 horses I would smack him in a heartbeat. :hammer: (Honorably of course.) :)
Drop research to 30% and still get Currency in 3. That stops the bleeding. We are breaking even.

IT: nada

Turn 9-270 BC: Delphi galley>temple. Sparta worker>hoplite. That jag is up to no good. We need to prepare for war.

IT: nada

Turn 10-250 BC: Thessa worker>library.

Summary. There is a worker between Pharsalos and Mycenae. I was going to have him help the other one at Mycenae hook up those spices. We need them bad! Our worker roading towards Knossos also needs help. I left the galley due East of Athens so it can ferry the settler/hoplite pair up north. That will be much faster than walking. ;)
Re the settler/hoplite pair up north. I thought 1 tile due north of where they stand now would be good. Yeah it misses the cattle but the next one can grab that. This will be Stormriders decision in any case. Put them where you want!
That jag is south of Sparta. I have our elite warrior with a worker in his range. I also pulled a hoplite out of Thermo to guard 2 workers there. I don’t trust Monty as far as I can spit. He’s probably just looking around but you never know.
Our military is average against him and Rome. We are strong compared to Hammi.
Currency is due next turn. We need to get our wines and spices hooked and get markets going.
I think we should also consider laying some smack down on Monty in the near future. :hammer:

Edit: I seriously considered rushing the library in Ephesus, but thought we might want to upgrade some warriors to swords, so I didn't spend the cash.

Here's a pic.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-250BCmap.jpg
Here's the game. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-250BC.zip)

Sparta has a taxman and is 17 shields from a temple. I it. We revolt!


You saw that it was *already* having trouble keeping its people happy, and you whipped it? :eek: How long does Sparta take to produce 17 shields? Not very!

Whipping is useful on cities that have very low shield output. Sparta would have been able to make up those shields in about two turns.

I really don't understand why I suggested that Mycenae have its library whipped, and you and Renata decided to go and have one huge whipping-fest :)


Thermo riots. I knew it would but it was a calculated risk. If I had hired enough clowns it would have starved in 5. It should make it through the anarchy without starving now.


This is what you have to do with cities that are losing food in Anarchy. You make them riot every second turn - rioting consecutive turns risks them destroying improvements, so you don't allow that, but letting them riot every other turn stops them losing food on every alternate turn.

It's not like they lose anything out of rioting, you're in anarchy anyway!


IT: Monty sure is moving a bunch of troops around. Makes me a little nervous.


That's the same thing I thought on my turn :)


Boy do we need the happiness improvements! I have to run 20% lux to keep Sparta and Thermo from rioting.


Having to run 20% lux isn't so bad. It'd be less soon if you hadn't whipped Sparta.


Rome also has Construction. It would take Philo and 145 gold to get it from him. Monty wants even more. See what happens when Currency comes in.


Very good move not to buy it yet. Remember, for all the improvements Construction provides, we don't really need or want any of them. The biggest thing it adds is aqueducts, but we don't need any of them right now!

When playing at the higher levels, if you don't *need* a technology right now, then consider waiting for it. Very good to do so here.


I seriously considered rushing the library in Ephesus, but thought we might want to upgrade some warriors to swords, so I didn't spend the cash.


You should have rushed it. We want to outculture Tlaxclala, which almost certainly has just a temple. It'll take a while for a library to catch up and overtake a temple, and if we wait until Ephesus builds it, that 'while' will be about 50 turns, by which time the temple will be close to getting its doubling.

If we want cash for upgrades, not a problem, just cut research for a little while. Further, we should be able to get some cash off our rivals once Currency comes in.

Btw, it's good to see our rivals *still* don't have Philosophy. Try to keep it from them as long as possible. While we're in Republic and they're stuck in Despotism, we get a huge advantage. It'd be great if they ended up getting Monarchy before Republic and revolted into that!

(Note: I haven't actually been able to look at the saved game yet! More comments may follow once I look at it).

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
You saw that it was *already* having trouble keeping its people happy, and you whipped it? :eek: How long does Sparta take to produce 17 shields? Not very!-Sirp.

Yeah, that was really bad :smoke: there. Hopefully it was my only one.

Got it.

i just read all of this hread tonight and its great! i am playing monarchy right now and im having a little bit of trouble being the peaceful builder/researcher that i am. the only way im surviving is by having monoplies on techs such as demo and atomic theroy. man does TOE elp alot. sorry about the off-topic post. im just sad that 1) i couldnt get in, and 2) my civ3 disk is scratched and im civ3less :cry:

All,

I got through one whole turn last night. I will finish tonight.
My weakest point, I feel, is when it comes to tech trading with the AI. Am I giving away the farm, how do I do 2 for one deals, etc...

Here is my specific: Rome will offer 202g (out of his 207g) and Construction for Currency. My gut would be to do this, as it would double our $ and I could upgrade some of our warriors to swords for the eventual showdown with Monty.
Monty will give all his $ (27g), Constr. and WM for currency.

If I do the Rome trade, should I do the Monty trade as well, since Rome will probably trade it to Monty or do I just trade with Rome and hope the tech is valuable enough that Rome does not trade it to Monty for $27 and WM.

My gut would be to trade with Rome, but not Monty. Is my gut right?

You're asking me? ;)

Actually, my gut says not to trade with either. I'm kinda liking the slow tech pace on our continent, and we dont' really need the cash. We only have four vet warriors at the moment, which is only 160g to upgrade. Our cash flow difficulties will go away as soon as we have a marketplace or two. And the other continent can't be too far ahead (or at least no more than one of the unknown civs is too far ahead) since we haven't seen any barbarian hordes yet. We're still up Philo, right? What does Rome offer for that? Has it dropped any? If so, that's what he's researching. Harder to tell what Monty's up to, since he has so little cash on hand.

Anyway, I'd hold off. We can research poly next and still be able to trade for construction with that, even if Rome and/or the Aztecs go for currency.

Renata

PS If I *did* do the trade, I'd trade to both. Not sure if that's the best thing to do, but it's what I normally do unless the second civ is flat broke.

edited because I can't multiply

Originally posted by bewareofgnomes
2) my civ3 disk is scratched and im civ3less :cry:

Are you in the USA or have the USA version? If so, there is a no CD executable out there on the web. If you already have the game installed this would get you up and running.
PM or e-mail me and I will send you a link.

There's no way we'd trade with Monty, when he'd only give us 27 gold for it. Caesar would be very foolish to trade it with Monty under those terms.

I'm assuming that Renata wants so slow the tech pace so that we still have time to fit in an ancient-age war. This isn't an unreasonable strategy if that's what we want.

On the other hand, giving us Construction plus the money is also appealing. The attraction of the cash isn't so much the ability to upgrade warriors, as it is to be able to fund deficit research. Using the cash Caesar gives us, we'll be able to research Poly at a very high rate, sending us into the next age (at which time we'll get a free technology), and well ahead of our opponents.

I don't really want to say what I'd do though, I want you to make up your mind about it Stormrider, giving reasons to justify your decision. Think about the possibilities after we do the trade - the possible things we could research, and the possible things the other civilizations could research.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp

I'm assuming that Renata wants so slow the tech pace so that we still have time to fit in an ancient-age war. This isn't an unreasonable strategy if that's what we want.


Actually, no, you give me too much credit. It was as I said, a gut instinct, and my tendency in any jump to a level I haven't played at before: slow AI research = good thing. I then attempted to justify that instinct. :)

By the way, I am most likely going to have to skip my next turn (possibly my next two), unless my take-home midterm goes a lot faster than it looks like it will. I'll keep you updated.

Renata

The AI tech pace going along fast generally isn't so bad, as long as your tech pace is going along nicely too. (or you're confident you can catch up later, which is the way it works on harder levels).

If we were on Deity, we'd *definitely* want to accept Rome's offer. The higher the level, the harder it is to keep the AI back, and on Deity you have to learn to stop trying. You accept that they'll move along rapidly, and just hop on and join the crazy ride, making sure that you manage to get as much as you can out of it.

Sorry to hear that R/L has caught up with you Renata, it has a nasty habit of doing that sometimes. Keep us posted!

-Sirp.

I finished my turn last night. I will post my update and the save file later today. I have a couple of meetings I need to attend first. Too bad you can't make a living playing Civ...

Preturn: Empire looking good. I will probably spend most of my turn building infrastructure, unless one of the AI's gets sassy

1) 230BC Athens Settler -> Marketplace. After that Hopi to replace escort I am sending with Settler. Settler / Hopi to catch up with galley at delphi
Corinth Horse -> Library. Corinth's horse to Thermo and Aztec borderlands.
Settler/Hopi move N for city site.
Re-depoly extra warrior in Sparta towards Ephesus.
Workers to spice north of Mycanae. Need extra lux online ASAP. Long turn goal - get wine hooked up in Choke. Explore w/ southern galley.

2) 210 BC) Therm Temple -> Mktplace. Found Eritrea -> Library. There is a 1 space gap culturally from the rset of the choke cities. Move workers around for infrastructure. Load galley with Set/Hopi by Delphi for Choke area. Warrior moves to mountain next to Ephes.
Caesar gives me 202 gold (out of 207) and construction for currency. 4.4.2 Poly in 6 // -13gpt. Roading spice

Reasons for the tech trade: $ = deficit spending on research + until we get more lux and mktplaces, we need cash in the Republic. Since we can no longer whip, I also want some $ for emergencies. Plus Currency does not lead directly to any better governments.

3) 190BC Athens Hopi-> Mkt // SP Hopi-> Mkt Unload galley after its move as there is a barb galley next to it. Workers work Upgrade warrior in Sparta to sword

IT Pharsalos Horse -> Temple. Barb galley sinks us. Aztecs in our territory. - Jag middle / Archer next to Ephesus

4) 170BC Settler pair N to new city spot. As workers move, I move their military escort. I am escorting them due to the Jag wandering around in our territory. We are not ready to tangle with Monty yet, so I do not ask them to leave. I just keep adding incidents into my 'Reasons to exterminate the Aztecs' list.

IT Az start GW

5) 150 BC Troy in choke. Explore w/ galley.

6) 130 BC Move troops towards S border -> Near Ephesus Roman/Aztec build-up. workers to bring next incense on-line. Poly next turn. Working to road through choke. Did not chop down jungle first intentionally - want to connect ASAP

IT Poly and Mono -> Theology New era = Massive barb surge by Troy. Yikes. We got 330 gold. Still will deficit spend. Will probably buy some defense for Troy...

7) 110BC Spice online/ drop lux 4.5.1 Theo in 12, gpt-13. Move horse towards choke

IT) Xochicalco asks joins our party. I set it for library. Roman Set pair in our territory

8) 90BC Still no site of barbs. Not much = explore, move horse. Ask Rome to leave - he says ok.

9) 70BC Ephesus Lib -> Walls - Where rome and azteca meet greece - can veto. Ask rome to leave, not not forced out yet
Hurry Hoplite at Troy for Barbs

IT Barbs show up at Troy

10 50BC troy - hopi -walls set to whatever. Delphi Temple -> Mkt

Most of military not in cities is guarding work parties
Workers b/t Xo and Mycanea -> road
There are 4 babrs in attacking distance of Troy.
Deficit spending on research
Ephesus - I was in a rush and left the default build order - Please review
Romans and Aztecs have some troops in our territory. Not enough to concern me, but they bear watching.
Should we now bu

Here is the file: SP4-50BC.ZIP (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-50BC.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4 50bc.jpg

I give up!!!! How do you attach a stupid jpg image to a message

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4_50bc.jpg

Stromrider use the img tags and the url just like the save game.

@ Stormrider: whew! that you let off that settler pair before the galley got sunk. Good job - I sometimes forget to do things like that. And very cool about Xochicalco - I didn't *think* that town could manage to remain in the Aztec empire for very long, but nice to see it happen so fast.

Re: Xochicalco - any thoughts of abandoning the town via settler then resettling one tile west? It would give us a western port and reduce some of the excessive overlap with Mycenae. Or we could go NW to avoid cultural overlap with Tlacopan and still get the port.

Renata

Originally posted by Renata
Re: Xochicalco - any thoughts of abandoning the town via settler then resettling one tile west? It would give us a western port and reduce some of the excessive overlap with Mycenae. Or we could go NW to avoid cultural overlap with Tlacopan and still get the port.
Renata

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Stormrider, when you upload a zip of the save, please call the file inside the zip SP4-50BC.sav - not the default name which has spaces in it. Some zip programs have problems with archives containing files with spaces in their names.


I will probably spend most of my turn building infrastructure


A good sentiment, however you did neglect one of the most crucial types of infrastructure of all: workers. Sparta and Athens can both churn out workers very fast, but you instead committed them to each building a marketplace.

Marketplaces are good improvements, but we don't need them immediately. We can handle losing money while we research, and just selling off our techs to fund us. We showed that when we sold currency to the Romans.

While getting Athens to build a marketplace was probably a good idea, keeping Sparta on worker production for a while would have been better. You could have produced 5 workers over the course of your turn. They'd have increased our income fast with the infrastructure they'd have built.

In fact, a suggestion for the next player (Shaesha): keep Sparta producing workers and/or settlers, and let Athens grow big. Get workers to build infrastructure around Athens, and it will become a center of commerce and production. We can build a cathedral there, and we almost have three luxuries under our control. This will allow us to grow the city all the way to size 12.

After we have enough workers (around 30) for a while (we'll still want to slowly increase our number of workers from there).

Also, we still haven't started on our Forbidden Palace. Thermopylae is most of the way through a Marketplace, my suggestion to the next player is to switch it to an FP.

About the state the save was left in:

- Sparta has an entertainer, but setting the entertainer to work doesn't cause disorder.
- Athens is set to maximize production. Why? Set it to maximize growth! Production will come later.

And ack! I have to go to work now. More comments will follow later. Shaesha is up.

-Sirp.

Got it but I am at work for the first time since last Wednesday. (for the most part anyway)... I doubt that I will play tonight but I have tomorrow off and will play then =o)

Thanks!
Lisa

More comments on Stormrider's turn....good job on unloading the galley. This is always an important thing to remember when transporting units by ship. Always consider unloading them if the ship is about to be attacked. On the topic of transporting by ship, it wouldn't be bad to get a galley with a settler up to those furs in the extreme north. That'd give us a fourth luxury. We could rush a harbor up there, and have them online quick, or just build roads up there. The Aztecs also have a supply of furs, and we may decide to attack them. But having that supply of furs would give us a monopoly.

We still want to try to settle all that land in the north-east if we can. Deny babylon as much of it as possible, and stop any other civilization from getting colonies there. We need our settler/worker factory to remain just that for a while to come. I already mentioned it, but I'll reiterate: a marketplace is good for a city that is size 7+. While Sparta is a settler/worker factory, it will stay at sizes 4-6. It doesn't need any of that infrastructure until we're done churning out settlers and workers, and that's a while away yet. Your infrastructure-focus was good Stormrider, but you went a little overboard on it, we're still in expansion mode! Other than that your turn was pretty solid. A good trade with Rome, you cemented our technological advantage, and catapulted us into the Middle Ages - which we want to keep Babylon out of as long as possible btw, as they are scientific, and we don't want our monopoly on Monotheism broken.

Matt_g and Renata's suggestion of moving Xoch is a good one, however it'd be one space south-west, to be on the coast and on fresh water. If we couldn't move it and keep it on fresh water, there's no way we'd move it. Don't be worried too much about our deficit guys, we have some cash in the treasury, so we can afford to run deficits for a while. The increased growth rates of our cities now we're in Republic will let our cities grow to size 12, and generate much more commerce, and cover the deficits. Remember that we DO want to irrigate lots of grassland now. Also don't be afraid to use the luxury slider. Having to use it means that we're getting bigger cities, and bigger cities means more commerce. I have little doubt that building the Forbidden Palace real soon would cement us as the most powerful civilizaton on the earth. Shaesha: good luck!

-Sirp.

Do we want Sistine? We should start now, if we do. (Actually we should've started a while ago, but anyway. ;) ) With at least one other civ in the middle ages and numerous ancient age wonders still available (GW, HG, Lighthouse) we may not get it, but at least in the early middle ages we're not likely to lose the shields outright.

Any other wonder building suggestions? We have Sun Tzu's coming up in the near future, and Leo's, Copernicus, Bach's + Smith's available down the road a bit.

Renata

If we want a wonder, Athens should be in a fine state to get it. However, I don't think we even need to start building it now. Athens can afford to build a cathedral first, as it shoots up to size 12, and then build it. Unless AIs on other continents have gone after that line of research pretty aggressively and/or have some pretty big cities, I'm confident we'll get it.

-Sirp.

50BC - Those barbarians did a number on Troy and they are still coming. Athens
finished their Market place, started them on a Cathedral. Corinth finished their
library changed them to Swordsman. Changed Delphi from Marketplace to Galley.
Herakleia has finished their temple. Started them on Barracks. Thought they
could work on troops for the southwest of our little empire. Changed Thermopylae
from Marketplace to Forbidden palace. Changed Knossos to a temple. Changed
Thessalonica to worker so we can get some roads going in that area up north. Got
rid of the entertainer in Herakleia. Also took care of the entertainer in Athens.
Got Athens to a surplus of 5 food.

IT - Troy was attacked by the barbs again. Sparta finished Marketplace - changed
to Settler. Thessalonica finished it's worker. Leaving it set to churn out
another.

30BC - hmmm when i am reviewing here i don't see a 30bc... I think it must have
been finishing other stuff? I dunno...

IT - see above.

10BC - Moving horseman up north to help with the barbs and hopefully find their
little camp.

IT - Troy still being attacked. Sparta went into civil disorder.

10AD - Fixed the civil disorder issue. Hooking up wine in the north. Moving
horseman out to find that barb camp.

IT - Sparta is happy again. More barbs moving in on Troy.

30AD - See the barb camp - started irrigating grasslands in Athens.

IT - Delphi finished Galley. Started them on harbor. Rhodes finished Hoplite
started them on Worker. We held our own with the barbs. Aztecs have finished the
Great Library in Tenochititlan. Babylonians are building the Great Lighthouse.

50AD - Blah

IT - Our new Galley took on a barb galley and won! Now a veteran. Sparta finishes
a settler moved them to worker. Mycenae finished their barracks set them to
hoplite. Herakleia and corinth went into civil disorder. Romans are building
the Great Wall.

70AD - I just checked the domestic advisor screen. Everyone is even now. I
should not have any civil disorder. GRRRR! Got the barbarian camp and 25 gold!
Picked up the hoplite in Rhodes. Going for the settler now.

IT - Pharsalos has finished their Temple. Started them on a Colloseum.

90AD - Blah

IT - We got Theology going for education now. ARGHHHH Athens went into civil
disorder. Go Figure. Checked the domestic advisor again. Thermopyla would have
gone into civil disorder, got them an entertainer. Xochicalco had an entertainer
but I put him to work.

110AD - Have the settler and hoplite moving north.

IT - Argos finished their temple, started them on colosseum. Herakleia has
finished their barracks - started them on horseman. Ephesus finished Walls,
started them on Temple.

130AD - Blah

The game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-130AD.zip)

Edit: fixed URL case sensitive issue

Shaesha, firstly the saved game location is case sensitive, so the url is http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-130AD.zip

It's fairly obvious that your biggest problem is civil disorder and happiness. Most of your build decisions were good, and you did particularly well in choosing to build a galley in Delphi.

(I have sent Shaesha further advice on how to keep her citizens happy privately...).

Ok, I'm up now, Renata is after me.

Renata, did you want to be skipped or can you play this round? Let us know asap...

-Sirp.

130AD (IT): We still don't have those wines hooked up since we need our Rhodes-Knossos road completed, so I get some

workers doing that.

I reorganize our city-working. Considering we're now in Republic, many of our cities are growing far too slowly. We need

irrigation. Lots more irrigation in many of our cities. I change cities which have unimproved grasslands near them, like

Pharsalos and Mycenae, to produce workers. I'm not sure whether to keep Athens going for a cathedral, or get it to

change to Sistine's. If we get a cathedral, we should still be able to get Sistine's, *or* Bach's.

Science rate cut from 50% -> 30% since we can't keep on running deficit science for too much longer, and luxuries up 10%

-> 20%. They will go down when wines are hooked up. Education is due in 15. That's just fine, we're ahead in science.

Aztecs have a trade route with us, but we don't want to trade anything with them right now. Trading for furs is

tempting, since we probably won't get a source online in the very near future, but I decide to give it a miss; we don't

want to pour money into their science program.

I see that the Babylonians have not reached the middle ages, and are still two technologies away. It's best if we can

keep them out as long as possible, as they will (probably) get monotheism when they get into the middle ages, and we'll

lose our monopoly on it.

150AD (1): Sparta worker -> worker. Pharsalos worker -> marketplace. Thessalonica worker -> worker. Rhodes worker ->

worker.

We are apparently the happiest nation in the world!

The barbarian galley is approaching our galley so I sail just past it, and unload our hoplite/settler.

170AD (2): Barb galley attacks ours and we win, taking one damage. Another barbarian galley approaches, we will take

harbor in Troy until we're healed then sail on. I start sending the settler/hoplite pair on foot, and if the galley is

ready to go, it'll pick them up.

Our horseman destroys a barbarian encampment, but meets up with a barb horseman that just might kill him next turn.

190AD (3): Our horseman somehow survives against the attacking barb one and becomes elite. A barbarian warrior is there,

we'll have to retreat from him. Sparta worker -> settler.

This one jaguar warrior is going right through our territory. We could order him out, but it's only one, and I don't

want to spark a war with Azteca. Not yet, anyhow.

210AD (4): Eretria goes into civil disorder. Ugh. (This is the kind of city that I end up letting go into disorder every

now and again, since it's an outlying colony not connected to our trade network yet, and I don't monitor such cities

every turn). Entertainer set.

Our galley is repaired and ready to recommence its voyage, but it ends its turn next to another barb galley, and this

time those on board can't disembark, since they just embarked this turn.

230AD (5): Barb galley attacks ours, and gets it down to 2, but we win. Sparta builds settler -> settler. Thermopylae

builds the Forbidden Palace! Set to build a marketplace. Our wines are also online, meaning we can cut our luxury rate.

Now is decision time for Athens. It's building a cathedral, due in 1 turn. Does it want to get that, or go for the

Sistine Chapel? Ok, I figure that,

- our happiness situation is pretty good, looking like we're about to get four luxuries online.
- We don't necessarily want to commit our biggest city to producing a wonder which will take many turns. Especially if

we decide to go with a knight war with the Aztecs anytime soon.
- We don't necessarily want to get a cathedral in most of our cities, they're expensive, and we might be able to solve

the problem with luxuries
- JS Bach's is around the corner, and though we might not go for it immediately, it's an attractive option.
- Education is coming soon, and we want Athens to be able to build a university ASAP since it's our biggest science

city.

So, I go for a cathedral, and we likely *won't* go for Sistine's at all.

What do we do with our galley? Keep going or turn back? I keep going, but our horseman whose on the coast rides up the

coast to keep lookout for barbs in front.

250AD (6): Athens builds cathedral -> horseman. Time to get some defense going. Delphi changed to a harbor from

marketplace so we can have a sea-based trade route to get the furs.

260AD (7): Babylon founds the city of Shuruppak on the northern end of the unclaimed land. Thessalonica worker ->

worker.

It seems that the Romans, and thus the Aztecs have obtained the Republic. The Aztecs are now a Republic, and the Romans

are currently revolting.

270AD (8): Athens horseman -> horseman. We can now have Athens getting 15 shields a turn, *and* 5 food a turn.

Excellent. Cutting has also revealed two more bonus grasslands near Athens. Delphi harbor -> marketplace, and it's

growing so quick now that it *really* needs the marketplace.

Our galley arrives by the furs, and I was counting on unloading this turn, but uhh....there are barbarian horses, three of em, hogging the shoreline! Hopefully they'll disperse.

280AD (9): Ack! A barbarian galley comes out of the fog and attacks our 2-hitpoint galley loaded with settler and hoplite ready to take the furs. We win, he wins, uh-oh, we win. Yes! Another galley comes out of the fog and attacks us, I've got that sinking feeling, but we manage to win both rounds and we have an elite galley! Sparta settler -> worker.

Now what to do with our hoplite/settler pair? There's barbs crawling around everywhere up here! I decide to send our galley up to check things out, and it makes sure there are no barb galleys in the immediate area, so we don't *have* to unload this turn. So I just unload our hoplite, and keep our settler on board. The hoplite is next to 4 barb horsemen. If it survives, we can unload the settler next. I also kill a barb horseman nearby with our horseman, which is coming to help out.

Hmm...change Athens to a Colloseum as a prebuild for a university.

290AD (10): Three of the four barbs didn't attack our hoplite! Why on earth not? Just to make things interesting, the Babs seem to have a settler/spear pair heading for the furs. We block them with our horseman. I decide we have no choice but to unload the settler now, regardless of barbs.

Notes:

We would prefer to settle the city *on* the furs and next to the barb encampment if possible. But we would prefer some city than a dead settler, so see what can be done.

We're about to discover Education. The Colosseum in Athens is a prebuild for a university. In most cases, I think we want to keep building marketplaces rather than switch to universities. Universities are a high priority after that though.

Consider rushing the harbor in our fur city (assuming we get it).

I have increased our workers from 20 to 28 this turn. We probably want to slowly converge toward 40 workers or so, but Sparta has pretty much done its dash as far as settlers and workers go I think. It's just about time for us to grow it to fulfill its destiny, becoming the great city it was almost meant to be.

Good luck Renata!

-Sirp.

The Keys to Athens (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-290AD.zip)

The Roster:

Matt_g
Stormrider
Shaesha
Sirp <--- just played
Renata <--- UP NOW
CivGeneral <--- On deck

Renata said that she might not have time to play this round. Renata, you have 24 hours to post "I got it" or a skip. If Renata posts a skip, or if 24 hours elapse without her posting anything, CivGeneral's 24 hours for "I got it" will begin.

Originally posted by Sirp

Renata, did you want to be skipped or can you play this round? Let us know asap...

Skip me, please. Mid-term was handed out last night. :eek: If my next round comes up after Wednesday I should be able to squeeze it in; if not, I'll have to skip that one, too.

Renata

I doubt we will get it back to you before Wed., so you should be able to play, eh!
Good Luck with your mid-term. Let us know how it goes. :)

CivGeneral, you are up now!

The roster:

Matt_G <--- on deck
Stormrider
Shaesha
Sirp <--- just played
Renata (skipped)
CivGeneral <--- UP NOW

Ive Got it
Walks in to the Room carrying the Deginater Player of the Demogame Text Book

Oye, Ive just heard that I am up :). sorry for the lateness, but I tripped over a Penguin Toy on the way here :s.

It's time for another quiz, this one is on Golden Ages. The questions are,

(1) How do you enter a Golden Age?
(2) What are the effects of a Golden Age?
and more subjectively,
(3) When is the best time to enter a Golden Age? When would we like to enter a Golden Age in this game?
-Sirp.

1. Have a UU win a combat or Build two wonders that matches your Civ Atributes (ive seen one onder do the same)

2. The effects of a GA is an increace in gpt, food, and Shield productions

3. It depends on the Victory you are trying to achive. If you are going for a Conquest/Domination Type game, its best to have a GA in the early stages. If you are aimong for the Modern age (Spaceship and UN) victory then you would need the GA in the closing end. With Culture you can enter a GA at anytime to help quickly build any Culture improvements.

1. What CivGen said except I've heard it said that capturing the appropriate wonder(s) then subsequently building any wonder will also do it.

2. Just shields and commerce, I think (adds one to each tile you're working that's already producing one?), not food.

3. Not in despotism! :) Ok, so it's probably worth it if you have an early UU and plan to use your GA to grab yourself an unbeatable amount of territory. But the benefits are greater if it can be delayed until after despotism, as the tile penalties will no longer apply. Worst time for it would be in anarchy. It would also be useless if it came so late that the game was already won or lost. For this game? I don't think we'll be able to avoid conflict with our neighbors for too much longer, even if we don't initiate anything ourselves. Rome and the Aztecs are both out of room, and Rome is missing a key resource. We would get the golden age then; it would be freakish not to have a few of our hoplites attacked at some point. If not, though, we could start it in the mid-middle ages if we build Copernicus/Smiths, or at the end of the middle ages if we build Smith's/Newton's. I think any of the above would work fine.

Renata

One the topic on wonders -
don't forget there are cases of ONE wonders will trip a GA.

China = Great Wall
Egypt = Pyramids

Colussus is the super wonder that helps expansionist, religious and commerical.

Dont forget

China = Manhattan too.
England = Lighthouse, Magellans in addition to Colosus (guess having 3 instant GA wonders is to make up for the Man-O-War heh)

And of course our old friend The Internet for everyone.

Ok answers to the quiz...Firstly you can only have one GA per game, so the first condition in triggering one is that you can't have had one before. Anytime you build a wonder, all the wonders you have in all your cities are scanned. Each wonder matches certain civilization attributes. If you have wonders that match both of your attributes, then you get a GA. Note that this means that if you capture a wonder that matches your attributes, and then you build another wonder that's unrelated to your attributes, you'll get a golden age immediately, since the scan is done at the point a Wonder is built. You also get a golden age if you build the Internet (new to PTW), or if your unique unit wins a battle against a non-barbarian unit.

A golden age increases shields and trade by 1 for every tile that is already producing at least one of each. It does NOT produce extra food. Food is delicately balanced in civilization because of the way food works with narrow surpluses. Having a GA produce extra food would lead to insane growth. Note that if you're in despotism, a large proportion of the golden age bonus will get chopped off by the despotism penalty. A grassland with a mine will produce 2 shields instead of 1, but a bonus grassland with a mine will still produce 2 shields, not 3.

CivGeneral, if you're going for a spacerace victory, you do NOT want to hold your golden age off to the end. The building of the spaceship parts isn't that difficult, it's being able to get the economy and technology capable of producing the spaceship parts that's the hard bit. A typical builder's game starts off with the 'horizontal' expansion phase (i.e. getting as much land/cities as you want), then is followed by the 'vertical' expansion phase (i.e. growing all the cities you have). We are now into the vertical expansion phase, with some last lingering horizontal expansion going on. (By contrast, a warmongering approach typically focuses on horizontal expansion all game long, with far more limited vertical expansion). Golden ages do not help that much with early horizontal expansion, which is almost always driven by settlers, not soldiers, because the primary cost in a settler is food, not shields or commerce. They do help alot with either conquest expansion, or with vertical expansion,
through faster building of city improvements. Being in Republic instead of despotism helps alot too. In fact Renata, although a golden age in anarchy isn't pleasant, if you get Republic at around the same time you enter a golden age, it is not worth staying in despotism to get your entire golden age. Better to revolt, lose some of your golden age, and then enjoy the rest of it in Republic. Republic really is that much better than despotism. As for when we want our golden age, right now would be the perfect time, perhaps a little earlier. We're first in GNP and manufactured goods already. A golden age would push us over the top and all but secure victory. So, we want to either get the wonders Renata was talking about (and they are all good wonders), or perhaps fight a limited war against the Aztecs, picking up a couple of key cities along the way. I think we can stick with peace though if that's what we want. As long as we're nice to the Aztecs and Romans, I think there's a good chance they'll leave us alone.
-Sirp.

Actually I just noticed this.

we could start it in the mid-middle ages if we build Copernicus/Smiths, or at the end of the middle ages if we build Smith's/Newton's

Actually, that isn't correct. LOGIC dictates that CoP is a Scientific wonder, but the Civ3 gods decreed that it is only expansionist... (same with SETI strangely). Your only remaining pre modern age scientific wonders are Newtons and ToE. (Library, CfC and Longevity are the others). You still have 2 comercial wonders left pre modern. Those are Smiths and Magellans.

Hmmm, ty Todd. I guess logic's not the best way to go with these things. :p

Renata

I keep missing these quizes.

Just to add my 2 cents: I always aim for my GA in Republic, which is generally in the middle ages. That being said, I am often in despotism when my GA occurs.

We got off to a great start here and are the big boys (and girls) on the block, so our neighbors have been well behaved. I usually do not get off to this strong a start (one of my reasons for a training game) and as a result, any early tech UU's I may have are called to the defense rather early, invoking a GA. This is especially true on my mostly unsuccessful forays into the Emperor level.

My GA's are often squandered building military to defend my empire as a Despot. I therefore never calculate a GA into any strategic planning for my games.

P.S. Since I am usually not 'king of the hill' until much later in the game, let's break the Aztecs soon. They have some nice cities that would benefit us due to their topography and proximity to our F.P

I hate to sound dumb but I still can't figure this out :)

What's a UU?

Thanks
Shaesha

[delurking]UU stands for Unique Unit...[lurking on]

Stormrider: I hope that you've learnt some things that'll help you start off much stronger in your future games.

The Aztec military is weak compared to ours, according to our military advisor. I suggest that in the near future, we prosecute a limited war against them, in which we take a couple of their cities. We don't want to pour everything into a war right now, since we're happily building, but a limited war which snares us two cities would be great. During this war we'd also hope to start our Golden Age.

So uhh....any time you're ready guys, although make sure you execute it right. (and you'll get to know a little more about executing a war 'right' when someone does it wrong! :) )

-Sirp.

The pressure, the pressure ....

(Says she who won't be playing for at least another sixty turns ...)

:p

Renata

Hmm...that gives me plenty of time to line up something real good for you Renata :)

Two caravels, a settler, three hoplites, and two swordsmen, with em you'll be expected to set us up to take out an entire civilization on another continent :p

-Sirp.

*Two* caravels, you say? So I can land the entire SOD in the same turn? You're too generous. :D

Renata

Your 'I got it' was about 46 hours ago.

Renata

CivGeneral's 10 Turns

130AD - Preturn

I have observed my suroundings an anylized the situation

150AD - Turn 1

Sparta: Worker -> Horsemen
Corinth: Continues Swordsmen
Thessalonica: Worker -> Library
Rhodes: Worker -> Hoplite

News Flash: The Babylons are Building The Great Wall

Moving the Galley away from Hispalis, we dont have a RoP with the Romans, so I do not want to create any Entanglements with them

Giving workers orders to build a road by Rhodes

Was thinking about mining the Wines by Thessalonica, but I mined the hill insted ( I dont want an old habit comming back :cringe: )

Carefully manuvered the Gally safely away from the barb Galley

170AD - Turn 2

Continued to give Workers there orders ( Sirp, Please also Give me a lesson of Settlers and land tiles, I beleve I may need an in depth guide on what to do what :-/, plus I am trying to pick up any Worker skill sthat I may need )

190AD - Turn 3

Continued giving workers there orders
Manuvering the Galley to a good spot to settle

210 - Turn 4

Sparta: Horsemen -> SC (Sistine Chapel)
Eretria went into a civil Disorder ( Srip, I wish to order the book entitled "How to keep cities Happy and preventing Riots" )
Assigned one citizen as a Entertainer
My Fear is catching up to me, we are starting to go into Debit (Srip, I would also like a book entiled "Civ3 Economics - How to balace Income with Science" )
I lowered the sci rate a bit to lesson the Debit while reaching to Education
Gave workers there orders

Vet Horsemen 3/4 Vs. Barb Warrior 2/2: Result Unit promoted to an Elite

230AD - Turn 5

Thermopylae: FP (Forbiden Palace) -> Hoplite
Herakleia: Horsemen -> Hoplite

Somehow Chieftess in the Demogame always does a Trade check, so I should do the same :).
None currently (Ive joined late so I am not sure on our trade objectives :-/)

250AD - Turn 6

Barb 2/2 Horsemen vs Horsemen 3/5: Defeated out Horsemen :(

Unloaded the Galley Load near the Cow and Game

260AD - Turn 7

Athens: Cathedral -> Hoplite
Thermopylae: Hoplite -> Catherdral
Mycenae: Hoplite -> Temple
Herakleia: Hoplite -> Cathedral

Marathon has been founded

Moved some units

270AD - Turn 8

Delphi: Harbor -> Hoplite

Moved some units

280AD - Turn 9

Athens: Hoplite -> Catapult

Barb Horsemen is within striking distance of our workers. I imedialy moved them to the nearest cities

290AD - Turn 10

The romans would like to have a word with us
Ceaser offers us Territory Map in exchange for Our Territory map
I declined and made a counter offer

Science: We have discovered Education
Education -> Monarchy (as I said before I joined in late so I dont know what objectives you have planed so I temporarly have it on Monarchy)

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-290AD1.zip)

CivGeneral,

You played from the wrong save. :wallbash:

You were meant to play from the save here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-290AD.zip) that I posted at the end of my last turn (perhaps too subtley entitled 'The Key to Athens'?)

I will comment on the turns you did play as a shadow, however since you have already used up your 48 hours playing time, you will be skipped this round. This means that Matt_g is up now, playing from the end of the turn I played.

-Sirp.

I've got the keys. ;)

CivGeneral,

Some comments on your turn...

Firstly, that ship with the settler onboard was headed for the furs in the north, something which Shaesha stated in her log. Admittedly, it required a great deal of tactical maneuvering to get it there, and I only just managed it on my turn. If it was just headed to where you put it, we'd have probably sent the settler on foot guarded by a hoplite or two.

Good choice to build the road to Rhodes, although that should be a high priority task: getting the wines hooked up. I had three or four workers doing it on my turn, and had it hooked up within a couple of turns in. Your biggest problems with happiness were derived from not having our trade network hooked up fully.

Now, about worker management, the things workers do come in terms of priority. Things with a high priority are those which have the highest time-taken-to-benefit ratios, those with a low priority have a low time-taken-to-benefit ratio, and should only be done once the higher priority things are. Determining how high priority a certain task is is a difficult to master skill, but there are some basic rules:

- anything which gets a city that can grow more food has great benefit
- anything which gets a city more trade or shields has good benefit.
- improving tiles which are already being worked on by citizens has a higher benefit than those of tiles that are not yet worked on. Not yet worked on tiles may still have a fairly high benefit if it is likely they will be worked on in the near future.
- hooking up luxuries has a benefit proportional to the number of cities on your trade network. It is worth perhaps 1 commerce/turn for every city on your trade network
- making a trade network or military road network is of value dependent on the goods that can be traded along the trade network, and the military units you intend to send across the road network.

And on the time taken side of things:

- improving a tile which already has road on it is cheaper than otherwise doing so, by one worker turn for every worker you assign to the task
- working on grassland and plains is cheaper than mountains or hills
- chopping jungle takes a very long time

Now although you have some workers doing sensible things, you also have some workers that are doing high-cost, low-benefit tasks. Most criminal of all, you have a worker two tiles north of Sparta mining, on a tile that is not in the radius of ANY of our cities. You also have workers building a road over mountains between Corinth and Athens. Meanwhile, there are perfectly good grassland tiles that are sitting unirrigated between Pharsalos and Mycenae, while those cities grow at a horrible pace.

Why are you improving mountain tiles? Do you think our cities are going to be working on them anytime soon? They take ages to improve and can never produce any food, while we're trying to grow our cities nice and big here, there's no way we'll be working on any mountains in the near future.

Chopping some jungle near Athens at the moment is fine, since Athens is a big city with high priority. But chopping jungle tiles elsewhere isn't, especially when those cities still have unimproved tiles that could more cheaply be improved with higher benefit.

You also have workers sitting in Troy, apparently holed up afraid of the barbarians. In my turn, I just sent them south to help out with our core. I also sent a horseman up to help kill the barbarians. Having workers languishing in your cities is not a good way to build a great empire.

Now, happiness....I'm not so much concerned about the civil disorder you had (because it didn't happen in important cities as far as I can see), but I am greatly concerned about the number of entertainers you used. Entertainers are bad, very bad. They are essentially one of our citizens sitting around doing nothing productive. The citizen still eats food, but doesn't produce anything at all, other than keeping a fellow citizen happy!

You have one in Athens which is unnecessary. A citizen in our core city, sitting around doing absolutely nothing! Meanwhile, many of our other cities have to have entertainers to keep people happy.

I used a simple solution on my turn: I increased the luxury slider from 10% to 20%. As soon as around 5% of your citizens are sitting around as entertainers, it's time to increase the luxury slider. The only time entertainers are really ok is if they are in hopelessly corrupt cities, far from the capital.

Build options: You didn't build enough workers. I had 28 workers by the end of my turn, you had 23. Not enough. You also don't seem to have a plan for the rest of that unclaimed land. I produced 2 settlers in my turn, you produced none. Meanwhile, you chose to go for the Sistine Chapel in Sparta, of all cities. Athens is the city which doesn't have happiness problems, and is nice and big. If we want to build a Wonder it'll be there. Sparta on the other hand, has happiness problems, isn't as big or powerful as Athens, and still has several other improvements that it can build.

You chose to build a catapult in Athens. Catapults cost 20, while Athens produces 14 shields (which could be more than 15 if you didn't have the entertainer), so it's an awkward number to start with, but uhh...why? Is there a reason or a plan for the catapult? Meanwhile we could be pre-building for a university which will greatly increase our science output, considering Athens is our highest-science city.

Meanwhile, Pharsalos was building a Colosseum. Rarely build Colosseums: they are relatively expensive, have high maintenance, and are generally not needed once you have a marketplace, temple, and cathedral. You should have been building a marketplace, or at least a cathedral there. A marketplace improves happiness as long as you have 3+ luxuries AND it improves income.

Meanwhile, Corinth is building a swordsman. We're just in the super-growth-spurt of the game, and you're building military units in a core city that has plenty of improvements possible? Does war look imminent to you? Is our military advisor telling us we have a weak military compared to those around us? (On the contrary, he'll tell us we're strong militarily compared to each of our known rivals).

You mentioned that you didn't know what our general 'strategy' is. Well, we haven't talked about that a great deal, but I do recommend you look over the thread in detail. Basically we're just building the best civilization we can, with vague talk of a possible war with Azteca.

Oh and finally, I can appreciate that you weren't sure exactly what to research, but......Monarchy? Monarchy??? That is one tech we don't want to research, ever. I don't care if the demogame uses it, we will never be using Monarchy in this game :)

I suggest you look over my game, since it goes over the same turns as yours, and see what I did differently.

-Sirp.

CG, I recommend you print this out or something, and keep it in hand the next time you're the DP...

Originally posted by Octavian X
CG, I recommend you print this out or something, and keep it in hand the next time you're the DP...

Thanks, Ill copy and paste it in my notepad so that I can print it out tomorrow.

Hopefully I get to the right save next time :).

Preturn: Surprise, surprise. Everything looks peachy. :)
I just change 1 thing. If we are going to settler abandon Xochicalco, now is the time to do it. It has 27 shields towards a library and is at size 2 and there isn’t any infrastructure there yet. I set it to a settler and hire a taxman to get it to zero food surplus. Due in 2.

IT: Two of the three barb horsemen attack our settler/hoplite pair by the furs. Kill them both and only lose 1 hp. The third one is still sitting on the tile I want though, so I will wait 1 turn.

Turn 1-300 AD: Rhodes, worker>library. Sparta, worker>hoplite. Education comes in. Swap Athens to a Uni. Research set to Feudalism, due in 8. My thinking is to get Chivalry, build knights while researching engineering and get ready to smack Monty. We will want Engineering so the rivers aren’t slowing us down.

IT: Barb up north impales himself on our hoplite.

Turn 2-310 AD: Corinth, market>Uni. Thessa, worker>library. Xochi, settler. It’s abandoned. Moved 1 tile SW (on the horses). It’s now called Marathon. :) Set to a library. Settler up north moved onto the furs. Will found next turn. Just in time too. The Babs turned back because of our horse blocking them and got into a galley. They will unload next turn, but since you can’t found on the same turn as you unload, we will have it.

IT: Barbs attack Troy and our hoplite wins.

Turn 3-320 AD: Thermo, market>Uni. Herakleia, market>Uni. Halicarnassus founded on the furs and racking in 25 gold from the barb camp. Set to a harbor. Will rush next turn, after a shield is in the box.

IT: nada

Turn 4-330 AD: Athens, Uni>hoplite. It’s getting 20 spt and can build a hoplite every turn. I am going to do this for a few turns. A couple anyways. Sparta, hoplite>Uni. It will make use of that shortly. Just noticed that Hammi went to annoyed and Monty is furious! Hammi I understand because we settled those furs from right under his nose. Monty didn’t like seeing ‘his’ city settler abandoned I guess. All the more reason to get some troops out to the border cities.
BTW, we don’t have enough cash to rush a harbor yet. I turn science down to get it next turn. It will save us almost 30gpt in lux and will pay for itself ASAP.

IT: Rome built the Great Wall. Aztecs switch to Great Lighthouse.

Turn 5-340 AD: Athens hopi>hopi. Rush harbor in fur city. We are damn near broke. Turn science back up, Feud in 4. Making 33gpt to get some money back in the bank. (down to 28 in the treasury right now.)

IT: nada

Turn 6-350 AD: Argos, market>Uni. Furs online, lux dropped to zero. Have to hire a clown in Delphi and a taxman in Thermo. Market not due for 9 in Delphi. I’d rush it if we had the cash. <shrug> So, with a temple, market and cathedral, (with 4 luxury’s) we can go to size 12 without lux tax. Without a cathedral they will riot at size 10. Up science to 50%. Feud in 2 at +35gpt.

IT: nada

Turn 7-360 AD: Athens, hopi>hopi. Ephesus, temple>market. Torn between this and a courthouse. It’s about to grow to 7 so market it is.
Pergamon founded. Another 25 gold from settling next to a barb camp. Turn science dows as far as I can and still get Feud next turn.
Athens hit size 12 and is set to zero food, max shields. Still needs a little work to get the most out of it. It will hit 25 net spt after a couple of mines finish.

IT: nada

Turn 8-370 AD: Feud comes in. Research set to Chivalry, due in 4 at +11gpt. I thought about going for banking but we need to smack Monty IMHO. He’s really pissed. Just doing a diplo check damn near sparks a war. :lol: “Are you deliberately testing my patience” etc.
Athens, hopi>hopi. Eretria, library>worker.

IT:

Turn 9-380 AD: Athens, hopi>colosseum. I intend for this to become a Knight in 3 turns.

IT: nada

Turn 10-390 AD: Miletos founded. Set to library.

Notes for Stormrider: There is a ‘chain’ of workers along the coast between Knossos and Delphi working on getting that jungle clear so we can get irrigation up to the choke and beyond. There are 3 workers on a mountain by Athens. I was going to have them mine and road it so Athens could get more shields. We still have our monopoly on Monotheism. Hammi is still in the Ancient Age. Treasury is back up to 215 gold. Chivalry is due in 2.
Delphi is going to grow again before it’s market is done. You might want to slow that down 1 turn.
Don’t forget to change my colosseum in Athens to a Knight, (or something else). 5 more Universities will finish in the next 8 turns. Research ought to start rocking!
Good Luck!

Matt

Edit: Most of those hoplites I built are heading up north for defense in those new cities.

Here's a pic.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-390ADSS.jpg

Here's the save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-390AD.zip)

I just change 1 thing. If we are going to settler abandon Xochicalco, now is the time to do it.

Yeah I must admit I am always a little dubious about abandoning cities, so I didn't make any moves toward it. Not a move I'd fault though. The time was certainly right.


Research set to Feudalism, due in 8. My thinking is to get Chivalry, build knights while researching engineering and get ready to smack Monty. We will want Engineering so the rivers aren’t slowing us down.


Being a compulsive builder, I really did like how deeply we were penetrating the top, 'peaceful' side of the tech tree. I would have *really* liked to get Banking and Astronomy. Banking because banks would get our economy going even better than it already is. Astronomy because it would probably give us the opportunity to make contact with civilizations on other continents, and become a broker (not that there's much to broker with the backward civilizations on our continent!)

If we didn't make a positive decision for war, I'd fault your decision here, but since we did, I can't really.

Although, we didn't need Feudalism or Chivalry to make war. Our opponents only have ancient age units, so we could certainly fight them effectively with our ancient age units. But, if we can make it into a shooting gallery, I guess we should :)


Thessa, worker>library


I think we should have extracted a few more workers from this city before improving it. Not a bad move but uhh...I really like workers. :)


Sparta, worker>hoplite.


a military unit from Sparta? It's one of our less improved cities that needs several civic buildings before it gets onto building military.


Athens, Uni>hoplite. It’s getting 20 spt and can build a hoplite every turn. I am going to do this for a few turns. A couple anyways.


good thinking here. :goodjob:


Argos, market>Uni. Furs online, lux dropped to zero. Have to hire a clown in Delphi and a taxman in Thermo. Market not due for 9 in Delphi. I’d rush it if we had the cash. <shrug>


This is where the luxury slider gets really hard to decide on. You ended the turn with a few more entertainers than I'd like, but a luxury slider increment at this stage makes a big difference.

However, if you have cities that have entertainers/taxmen, you should almost always be doing something about it. You ended your turn with Thermopylae about to complete a university when a cathedral is an available building. It is a still-growing city, and will probably need two entertainers/taxmen as soon as it grows. A cathedral is what this city really needs. (big hint to the next player :) )

The other cities that have happiness problems are building things to fix it, so good job with the rest.


Halicarnassus founded on the furs and racking in 25 gold from the barb camp.


good teamwork with this one guys, Shaesha setting it up, me getting it within our grasp, and you finishing it off. :goodjob:


Research set to Chivalry, due in 4 at +11gpt. I thought about going for banking but we need to smack Monty IMHO. He’s really pissed.


*muttering something about how nice banking would be*.

A war with Medieval Infantry combined with hoplites would be fine :)

MDIs are *good* units. We could produce almost two for every knight, and they attack just as well as knights, without the retreat. I like them alot.

However, Chivalry it is!

We do NOT want Engineering after that though. Banking and Astronomy are far better choices, especially since the war is meant to trigger our golden age. It'd be really nice if the Romans or Aztecs researched Engineering for us as well :)

Also, our military advisor is telling us we're strong compared to the Aztecs. Uhh...if they declared on us at this point, they'd have precisely no hope of prosecuting any kind of effective attack against us. I'm not one bit scared of them.

You did a good job with moving our troops to the front with them. I see that every frontier city is defended by at least two hoplites.


Athens, hopi>colosseum. I intend for this to become a Knight in 3 turns.


Good move here.


There is a ‘chain’ of workers along the coast between Knossos and Delphi working on getting that jungle clear so we can get irrigation up to the choke and beyond.


You did good work with this, however I would have used even more workers. Those workers mining above the choke should probably be either (1) building roads up to our new cities, or (2) helping out with the irrigation plan.


There are 3 workers on a mountain by Athens. I was going to have them mine and road it so Athens could get more shields.


Why are they on that mountain and not on the mountain with iron on it? Athens isn't even working on that mountain at the moment, and it wouldn't be profitable for it to. We want to mine/road the iron mountain, and the hill, but not that mountain! Not for a long time.


Delphi is going to grow again before it’s market is done.


:eek: Why would you want to *slow* its growth? The only time you slow growth is to get better benefits from a granary, which is in effect getting faster growth in a non-intuitive manner. Otherwise, you never want to slow growth of a city. Trade growth for shields or commerce, yes, but never slow it just for the sake of slowing it. The *worst* that could happen is that we would have to set an entertainer, which is uhh...a citizen whose not working yet. But a citizen who can work later is better than not having a citizen at all!

However, there is a better option. There is a bonus grassland between Athens and Delphi which Athens is working on. Athens doesn't need it, it has plenty more good tiles to work. Give that tile to Delphi and Delphi will be able to speed production of the marketplace.


5 more Universities will finish in the next 8 turns.


yes, except that Thermopylae will have its changed to a cathedral :)

But yes, we're already researching well. It'll get even better!

---

I notice that Mycenae is starved of decent growth tiles because Pharsalos has most of them taken. However, there is an unworked grassland between Themopylae and Pharsalos which Pharsalos could switch to, leaving a grassland tile for Mycenae to get.

Also, I don't know if you were doing this Matt_g, but Sparta can be micro-managed to produce 8 food one turn, and then 6 food the next two turns, getting more shields, to grow once every 3 turns, and still pull in plenty of shields.

The jungle tiles near Corinth and Delphi should be becoming higher priority, as these are tiles near our capital that we want to start using. Corinth is about to grow, but has no good tile for the new citizen to work on. Knossos also has great potential once we get the jungle chopped down. We want yet more workers, and I think that Miletos should probably be switched to building one.

A good solid turn Matt, a few mistakes, but nothing I'd call :smoke: (well ok, maybe the bit about hampering growth, but you only suggested that and didn't do it!)

Good luck Stormrider!

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
Being a compulsive builder, I really did like how deeply we were penetrating the top, 'peaceful' side of the tech tree. I would have *really* liked to get Banking and Astronomy. Banking because banks would get our economy going even better than it already is.

I am a builder at heart as well. I was really torn and wanted to go with banking, but my brain said get the tools to acquire a ring aroung our FP.


A war with Medieval Infantry combined with hoplites would be fine :)
MDIs are *good* units. We could produce almost two for every knight, and they attack just as well as knights, without the retreat. I like them alot.

This is only my second game with PTW, and to tell the truth I totally forgot about MDI's. :smoke:


Why are they on that mountain and not on the mountain with iron on it? Athens isn't even working on that mountain at the moment, and it wouldn't be profitable for it to. We want to mine/road the iron mountain, and the hill, but not that mountain! Not for a long time.

I am too paranoid about resources disappearing. I don't hook them up unless I want to trade them. I obviously need to change my thinking here.


Also, I don't know if you were doing this Matt_g, but Sparta can be micro-managed to produce 8 food one turn, and then 6 food the next two turns, getting more shields, to grow once every 3 turns, and still pull in plenty of shields.

I must admit, I wasn't.

Thanks for the critique! :goodjob:
Matt

I am too paranoid about resources disappearing. I don't hook them up unless I want to trade them. I obviously need to change my thinking here.


Uhh...really, resources don't disappear *that* much. We have three sources of iron in our territory, they're not all going to disappear on us. It's really not something that happens that often.

-Sirp.

It's time for some mid-game discussion and reflection: I assume that the players in this game all have had trouble winning on Monarch, or think you would if you tried. Yet in this game, we are almost certainly the most powerful civilization in the world already, being ranked first in all key metrics: land area, population, gross national product, and (what I generally consider the best metric of power) manufactured goods.

So, I would like each player to list the key points that they feel has led to our success, including things that each of you have learnt, and things that we have done differently to what you might have done in previous games.

Lurkers/non-participants may also make comments if they like.

-Sirp.

<--- is half-unconscious and losing her mind with her mid-term and her presentation and is unwinding by browsing cfc so please forgive any incoherency

One thing that I'm sure has helped is that we have excellent land to work with. If, say, our starting position and Babylon's had been reversed, we would be facing a much more difficult game right now. In particular, the sheer number of rivers and freshwater sites is unreal, and probably the main reason our reseach is so far ahead of almost all (possibly all-all by now) of the monarch-level AI opponents.

I honestly don't know how I would perform on Monarch on my own; this is my first attempt at it in any format.

The most important things I've learned so far:
- It won't kill me to go to republic before I have three or four marketplaces (my usual revolution point prior to this game).
- Max research pays off more than it seems like it will at the outset. I'd often done 90% research instead of 100% if the initial turns read the same for both and lost time as a result.

Lots of other little things, too, but I can't name them all now; I'm getting tired.

Renata

I have been lurking here so is it ok if I step in with a comment? Even though I didnt play in this game it helped me to win on monarch for the first time! Thanks! It think one of the things that helped you was using the entertainment slider instead of entertainers (ents from now on so I dont have to type it :) ) I also think your good SP has helped too. You went to republic sooner than I usually do (I go monarchy first) but had a smaller army. I dont really understand why people like chivalry so much though. I prefer MDIs myself 'cause pikes dont get a bpnus vs them. And I definitely think war is a good idea right now because you can grab that nice land around your capital. And you never know When youll get a surprisingly good city. In my last game I got a city in the ancient age that later went on to build Iron Works and start producing almost 200 spt !!!!

I think that what I have learned most is .. hmmm .... city placement was a big thing. I never really grasped the extra food thing.... but now I do. Happiness obviously still gives me some problems but I think I am getting a *little* better at it :)

i am also a lurker. i think that what improved your gameplay the most were two things. first, little helpful tips such as the entertainer slider. second and prolly most important for me is the detail in every turn. these combine to make succesion games about a level easier IMHO. i am about 50-50 on monarch, but in succesion games with ppl close to my skill level, i am almost posotive i could win on emporer. speaking of which, after this game is finished could you do an emporer then possibly a deity. if you do reserve a spot for me sirp ;)

@lyks

Pikes don't get a bonus against mounted units - that was Civ2.

<--- had forgotten about MDI as well

Renata

The three things that I have learned that will help me the most are;
1. Don't be afraid to use the lux slider.
2. Research at max even if the turns to go don't change.
3. Dont worry about your cash in the early game. It's alright to be broke. ;)

All these things have had a lot to do with our success in this game, but I think the two biggest factors were:
1. The bonus food/granary combo at Athens and Sparta.
2. All the fresh water.

Of course having hoplites from the start doesn't hurt either. :lol:

Matt

Well, we certainly got a good starting position, and there is *lots* of fresh water around, which has helped us alot. Exploiting it took good city placement though, and that's a factor that shouldn't be underestimated. Even if we got Babylon's starting position, we'd still be #1 now, maybe not by so much, but we would be up there. After all, their starting position isn't *that* bad. The granary at the start also helped alot, and was very good for this type of start, with lots of open land around.

The luxury slider is an important thing I notice. Everyone should remember that it is the most efficient way to keep people happy in terms of happiness/gold spent ratio. The only bad thing about it is it's on an empire-wide instead of city-specific basis. Note that using the luxury slider costs you only commerce. Using entertainers costs you food, shields, and commerce. Entertainers are *very* bad. If you have them, you should always either (1) use the luxury slider instead, or (2) be working towards getting rid of them.

You always want to rush to Republic asap. @Lkysam: don't go to monarchy. Don't even research it. Rush for Republic, it's far better. Not to mention how horrid two periods of anarchy are. Once you have republic, switch to it immediately. Yes, research *may* suffer for a little while, but your growth will shoot up, and within no time at all, your research output will dwarf what it was in despotism. Don't be afraid to undertake a move which will hurt your research in the short term but render slightly longer-term benefits. Even if you have to set luxuries to 40% when you first enter Republic, the growth and extra shields will make up for it in no time.
There is an important thing that no-one else has mentioned: we built a fairly large number of workers, and we used them effectively, not chopping lots of jungle too early, and very importantly, irrigating grassland very quickly after entering Republic. Many people are loathe to irrigate over mines if there is completely unimproved land around. You might have noticed that's exactly what I was doing in my last turn. Irrigating an appropriate amount of grassland is very important upon entering Republic, you should try to get as many core cities as can to food surpluses of at least 4-5. @bewareofgnomes: Yes I may have another TDG after this on a higher level, if there is enough interest. I'd probably ensure that the starting spot is a little poorer, and yes I'll pen you in if it goes ahead.
-Sirp.

We haven't heard from Stormrider, after Matt_g's turn finished more than 24 hours ago, so he is skipped. If we don't hear from him before his next turn, he will be dropped from the game.

Matt_g
Stormrider (skipped)
Shaesha <--- UP NOW
Sirp <--- on deck
Renata (hope she does well on her midterms)
CivGeneral

Good luck Shaesha!

-Sirp.

Sorry I did not post an 'I got it'.

I checked on Saturday and saw Renata's comment that CivGeneral's report was still owed. I figured that there was still CivGeneral and matt_g before I was due and that I had until Monday to say 'I got it'. I did not expect Matt to play at 3 AM on Saturday and did not have a chance to log onto the internet on Sunday

I'm MIA for a few extra hours and all of the sudden I am in danger of being dropped? Not nice

Stormrider,

I do understand your reasoning, however it would be great if you could check back at least once every 24 hours to keep check of progress.

I didn't mean to 'threaten' you with being dropped. I just said that if you didn't show up before your next turn, which is a long way away, then you would be dropped. I don't think it's unreasonable to drop someone if they haven't been heard from for a full rotation. Others who have ran training day games (and other forms of succession games) usually have the same rule in this regard and generally express it in the same way.

I am still happy for you to play your turn now, so if you post an "I got it" before Shaesha does, then you can play your turn.

-Sirp.

I got it :)

Pre-turn
Thermopylae university --> Cathedral
Pharsalos Marketplace --> Cathedral
Knossos Temple --> Worker

400AD Moved workers on the mountains to the mountain with the iron. Gave the
bonus grasslands to Delphi. Moved a Pharsalos worker to the Themopylae side and
gave that tile to Mycenae. Changed Miletos to a worker.

IT Started Banking.
Eretria Worker --> Worker

410AD Workers north of the choke are connecting cities. South of the choke
chopping forest (mostly) Changed Athens to a knight.

IT Athens is dying of disease due to the jungles.
Sparta University --> Cathedral
Thermopylae civil disorder :(
Athens knight --> Medieval Infantry

420AD Raised lux and got rid of the entertainer in Delphi.

IT Thessalonica Library --> Worker

430AD Blah

IT We take on a barb galley and win
Athens Medieval Infantry --> knight
Delphi Marketplace --> Cathedral
Herakleia University --> Cathedral

440AD The Aztecs are in our territory, asked him to leave and he agreed.

IT Corinth University --> Temple

450AD I think I just sunk a galley!

IT Thessalonica worker --> worker
Rhodes Library --> Temple
Eretria worker --> worker
Lost our galley.... Sorry!

460AD The workers are still working

IT We're starting to research Astronomy now
Argos University --> Cathedral

470AD More work

IT Athens knight --> knight

480AD We're still working - almost have all the cities connected north of the
choke

IT Thess worker --> Worker
Miletos worker --> worker

490AD Blahhhhh

IT Nada

500AD more of the same =o)

<phew> Only one civil disorder!


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-500AD.zip)

Shaesha,

A good turn overall. You had sensible build orders, and you researched what we want: Banking and Astronomy. It's unfortunate about Athens suffering from disease, and especially frustrating that it was from its very last jungle tile. At least it happened now though, and not earlier in the game when it would have been more critical.

When that did happen though, you should have moved Athen's citizens, to optimize the city for food, so it can grow big again quickly.

I'm not sure how you lost this galley, but I assume you sailed it out onto the sea. I'm sure you know not to do that :)

Fairly good build orders in our cities, although you should probably have gone straight for a bank in Athens once we discovered banking. But then again, we are gearing up for war!

And speaking of war, I see that Rome and the Aztecs have both acquired Feudalism, and the Babylonians, having reached the middle ages, have shared Monotheism with them.

This means that each of our rivals can build medieval infantry and pikemen.....if they have iron. The Aztecs have one source of iron. Right on the border with us. I will deal with them quickly :)

'Got it'.

-Sirp.

The Aztecs have one source of iron. Right on the border with us. I will deal with them quickly :)

Monty better look out!! Sirp's gonna :hammer: him!
:rotfl:

Well, I will prosecute a war against Monty, and if I feel like it I might declare on Rome too. Anything to see how Renata deals with a difficult situation :)

Only ten turns left now before it's her go! :)

-Sirp.

Sirp: :satan:

Renata :help:


:p

Bring it on -- I'll be able to play Thursday night.

Renata <--- not skeered of a few iron-less Aztecs and Romans (much)

Originally posted by Sirp
Anything to see how Renata deals with a difficult situation :)
-Sirp.

That's evil. :p :D
I :love: it!

Glad to see your back Renata!
No matter what Sirp hands you, I'm sure you'll do just fine. ;)

I wish it was my turn. I am taking tomorrow off from work because we are in the middle of a one helluva blizzard here in Colorado. We have 2 feet of snow on the ground here and will have over 3 feet by tomorrow night. :eek:
That's 1 meter for you Sirp. Maybe a little more by the time it's done. It's that real wet heavy stuff too. Can't hardly shovel your driveway without killing yourself. :lol:
At least I don't live in the mountains. There are places up there that have gotten 4 feet (121 cm) in the last 24 hours, and are expecting another 3 feet tomorrow!

Matt

@ Sirip

Don't forget your promise now:p

Hmm...that gives me plenty of time to line up something real good for you Renata

Two caravels, a settler, three hoplites, and two swordsmen, with em you'll be expected to set us up to take out an entire civilization on another continent

I'm sure she has been waiting all week in anxious anticipation of this challenge :D

Marshall: Unfortunately there weren't as many turns between then and now as I thought, so there were two skips, and that challenge is going to have to wait a little :)

Matt: Turns just have a way of not coming up when you're all ready to play, and then coming up when it's not convenient don't they? I've been waiting for play a turn for a while, and all of a sudden I'm up here *and* in Russian Researchers. (And lucky you for being home, I'm stuck at work, and have never so much as seen snow in my life!)

Hmm...maybe it's time for this to become "Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Warmongers" by declaring war on all our neighbours or something fun like that :)

-Sirp.

Never seen snow! Yowsa.

I was just wandering through smilie land and came across this one; I think it looks a lot like matt_g right now don't you all?

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/person/aazcold.gif


:p

Renata

Well it just doesn't snow in most places in Australia. Actually I tell a lie, I have seen snow from about 30,000 feet while flowing over the alps, but I don't think that counts. I've never been to other countries during winter.

And I can't see smileys when I'm at work cause I'm using a text-only browser :(

-Sirp.

oh btw Matt_g, if you really want to play, you are welcome to play a shadow of my turn, so you can see how well you do compared to me (and yes by saying things like this I know I risk embarassing myself when someone does better than me :) )

-Sirp.

That's a damn good idea. :goodjob:
I'll do that and e-mail it to you.

Originally posted by Renata
Never seen snow! Yowsa.

I was just wandering through smilie land and came across this one; I think it looks a lot like matt_g right now don't you all?

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/person/aazcold.gif


:p

Renata

Not enough snow. :p
BTW, how are the midterms going?

500AD (IT): First I reorganize things a little: optimize Athens to grow back up to size 12 after being hit by disease. Change it to a bank, which I'm a little divided over, since an extra knight would help us out.

I see that 10% luxuries really are necessary now. Several major cities couldn't handle 0% luxuries, and won't be able to until we have cathedrals online.

Now what do we have? 2 knights, 3 horsemen (not counting the one in the nether-nethers up north), an MDI, a swordsman, and 6 warriors, only some of whom are veterans.

Does anyone see any of our cities waiting desperately for the next technology to be discovered so that they can build some vital improvement? No? I didn't think so. I cut science off completely, which will give us 209 gold per turn, something we need for two purposes: (1) upgrading units (Renata: :) ), (2) investigating Aztec cities.

I shuffle troops around. Recalling a horseman and some warriors from the north. One horseman upgrade to a knight.

Ok, we're going to need more than 5 knights, so painfully I switch Athens back to a knight.

510AD (1): After growth, Athens is allowed to swipe an irrigated grassland off Delphi, so it can grow to size 12 in just 3 turns. Athens is our most valuable asset, we have to manage it wisely.

Upgrades taking place.

Too many of our workers are too far north. I start moving them back to our core, where there's still lots of work to be done. Among other things, Sparta is about to hit size 12, and will need to be reoptimized for shields.

520AD (2): Athens completes knight. Now it is set to build a bank. That's right, we're going to keep building and building even as we prepare for war! Thermopylae builds a cathedral. I'm going to get one MDI out of it before getting it to build another bank.

Thessalonica worker -> courthouse. Our northern lands need lots of courthouses to become productive.

I investigate our targets. Tlacopan is size 6, guarded by a spearman and a pikeman, both regular. It's building a cathedral, and is due to grow in 7 turns. They have pikemen. We must strike fast and hard. Tlacopan is the must-take city in this war. Four knights would have a high chance of taking it, but I want to be certain, so I will send five.

Malinalco is a secondary target, and we will attack it with an infantry force. It is guarded by two regular spearmen, and unlike Tlacopan it does NOT have a barracks, so upgrades are less likely. It's just size 2, and no walls, so no defensive bonuses.

530AD (3): Marathon library -> courthouse.

lots more of our workers diverted south. This little sub-kingdom we have up north is cute and all, but our core has a much higher priority over it. Sparta and Thermopylae could have substantially increased shield production with appropriate reoptimization of the surrounding terrain.

More upgrades as we gear up for war.

540AD (4) Corinth temple -> MDI. They're not going to be growing too soon with that jungle around, so I get them to build military instead of a cathedral. However, we really need our workers doing things like making Corinth stronger, instead of making some fishing village in the boonies have a mine that's production is lost to corruption anyhow.

Ok we're cashed up, so I turn research back up, Astronomy in 3 turns @+7 gold, and we have 347 in our coffers.

Athens and Delphi both reach size 12, and Delphi is *extremely* shield-poor for a size 12 city, with 9 shields. We need more workers in our core!

550AD (5) Sparta Cathedral -> Bank. Thermopylae MDI -> Bank.

Here is a picture of the graphic front:

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/SP5-battle-front.jpeg

The red stack consists of 5 knights and 1 hoplite. It will be able to reach Tlacopan on this turn. The green stack consists of one knight, a hoplite three MDIs, and a swordsman (upgrading the swordsman would have delayed our attack by a turn). The stack will hold in the forest outside of Malinaco, before attacking the city.

The eastern front will be a defensive one. We have enough hoplites and MDIs over there to defend it. The Aztecs have no road network over there (and we have updated maps), so we know they won't be able to attack us fast.

If the red stack captures Malinaco with ease, some of the unused knights might go north and attack Tzinzuntzen. A priority in this war will be to get our golden age going, as well as deny the Aztecs of theirs.

War declared. Our knight stack moves in:

vet knight vs regular pike: victory 3-1.

They have another regular pike in there now.

vet knight vs regular pike: loss 2-4. They promote
vet knight vs veteran pike (2): win 2-2.

Infantry stack moved as planned.

I make sure that the civil disorder popup is on, so that if war weariness strikes, I can use scroll ahead to stop disorder in every city after the first.

560AD (6): Even though I had several hoplites next to Aztec archers, they are all too scared to attack. We may have to end up generating a golden age with an offensive hoplite.

We take Malinalco for the loss of one MDI and one hoplite. Yes, I got a hoplite to try attacking a one-hitpoint spearman. He died.

I leave a veteran hoplite defending two captured Aztec workers in the west, near some archers. Hopefully this will bait them into attacking.

570AD (7): Hammurabi has the nerve. The nerve I tell you to threaten us for Feudalism. We tell him to go jump. He does.

We discover Astronomy -> Navigation, so we can discover other civs asap. 5 turns @ -25. Athens is switched to Copernicus.

The Aztecs have shown up with an MDI. Their archers are cowards and didn't attack our hoplite.

Tzintunzen is captured by two knights.

580AD (8): An Aztec MDI shows up outside outside Tlacopan. Maybe these MDIs are made of slightly sterner stuff than the cowardly archers, and we will actually get a golden age!

590AD (9): An Aztec MDI attacks us in Malinalco, across a river no less, but our hoplite loses 3-3! Argh!

Then an archer finally decides to attack us at Tlacopan, and our hoplite wins. We enter a golden age! :hammer:

Corinth MDI -> Cathedral. Knossos worker -> Marketplace. Mycenae Marketplace -> Temple. Miletos Worker -> Worker.

Tlaxcala captured from the Aztecs. But uhh...I misclick when defending Malinalco and leave the city with one defender two few. It has a 2-hitpoint MDI in there, and there is an Aztec 2 hitpoint MDI across a river from it. It may fall next turn, although should be easily retaken.

600AD (10): the Aztec MDI attacks Malincalo but we win, 2-0! Whew. An Aztec MDI outside Tlacopan attacks, and kills our hoplite, but is redlined. On our turn, I attack him with a knight, trying to sieze the mountain. We lose 4-0, and he promotes. Grrrrrr. I decide not to attack again.

Contacting Montezuma, I notice that an important development has occurred! He has contacted the Ottomans, and will trade contact, and Engineering, which he now has, for peace!

Rather than do anything myself, I will leave these decisions to Renata however :) My turn would feel incomplete if I didn't leave her with something tough to handle.

Remember to optimize cities for shields or food appropriately. We're in our golden age and want lots of civic improvements built. Thermopylae could go for a Wonder after its bank is finished, maybe a Bach's or Smith prebuild. Either of those wonders would be very valuable.


The Game (http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/SP4-600AD.zip)

(note: on my personal webspace since upload server wasn't working, so might be removed later).

Good luck Renata!

-Sirp.

EDIT: PS: Matt, did you play a shadow? I didn't get an email from you....

The midterm is done done done done done done done done done done done done done done done done .....

What a load off, I barely even care if I pass.

(Well, I do, really, just not right *now*. :) )

Thanks for asking,

Renata

Great to hear Renata :) What kind of course are you doing? Master's? PhD?

Now you can get back to the important things, like managing our glorious empire!

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Sirp
EDIT: PS: Matt, did you play a shadow? I didn't get an email from you....

No, I didn't. About 15 minutes after I posted that, we lost power here. :(
Just got it back about 30 minutes ago. Good thing to. It was getting damn cold!
I'm not going to do it now that I've read your report. It would be tainted, I have to much information I wouldn't have under normal conditions.
Sounds like an awesome turn! :goodjob:

You know I kinda like your idea about turning this into a TDG for aspiring warmongerers. That is one aspect of the game I suck at.
My main problem is wanting an overwhelmingly decisive force. As a result, many times I wait too long and miss the best 'window of opportunity'.
I mean, why kill a fly with a fly swatter when a 155mm howitzer is so much more decisive. :p :D :lol:

Well done. Threw a world of hurt on the Aztecs.

It may be a good time to take the Aztec peace offering, consolidate our gains and utilize our GA to the fullest.

Once our GA is over, we should re-evaluate our position and start some more conquests.

Matt - keep warm

Originally posted by Sirp
Great to hear Renata :) What kind of course are you doing? Master's? PhD?

Now you can get back to the important things, like managing our glorious empire!

-Sirp.

Chemistry master's. Over two years to go, yet, so the fun's just beginning. :rolleyes:

But yes, the empire. Read through the turn report, and much as I would like to expend some of my leftover midterm adrenaline on the Aztecs, I think it would be silly not to take the peace deal. If we do, we will have gotten a new contact, a tech and four nice cities (edit: correction, three nice cities and a jungle-ridden worker-black-hole ;) ) for very little cost in units or production; I can't see that pace continuing without a lot more offense than we currently have.

Anyway, I've yet to actually look at the save, so I may change my mind if something sticks out as a target.

@ matt - Yeah judgment in these matters is hard, isn't it? At least you're erring on the safe side. Take 10 knights where five would've sufficed and you lose a few turns; take five where you needed ten and you're likely to lose the game. :)

Renata

'got it'

Sirp,
Since you said you have never seen snow, I thought I would post a couple of pics. I know it's not the same thing, and yes I know you've seen pics of snow before, but I thought you might like to see what was going on here in Dacono, Colorado (USA) today. :)

Both these were taken looking out my kitchen window. The first one is my truck, which BTW was cleaned off and driven to the store about 18 hours ago. You get a better idea of how much we have had here looking at the neighbors car across the street. We have actually had more snow than it looks like in these pics. The wind is really moving it around. The drifts in places are 5 to 6 feet deep. (152 to 183cm)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CO_snowstorm1.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CO_snowstorm2.jpg

Matt
(muttering something about it probably being real nice and warm in Sydney)

Edit: Hopefully the upload server will start working shortly. It took the upload but doesn't want to respond to the request.