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Vokarya
Apr 11, 2012, 08:42 PM
I thought I would create a thread for posting tech tree ideas, suggestions, questions, and anything else. I'll start with this: I don't understand the current Constitution technology. Why is it in the Medieval Era? I think it's supposed to represent the Magna Carta, but if that's what the technology is for, then the name doesn't really fit.

I suggest renaming the existing Constitution tech to Charters and create a new Constitution tech:
Location: x50, y5
Renaissance Era
Prerequisites: Nationalism + Social Contract
Move Thomas Jefferson and the Jail and Maximum Security Prison to here.

Charters would replace the existing Constitution requirement for Divine Right. The new Constitution tech would be required for Corporation, and would replace the Nationalism and Social Contract prerequisites for Representative Democracy. Representative Democracy would require Constitution + Printing Press (going back to its original BTS prerequisites).

Charters would not have anything buildable for now, but I would like to put Scarborough Fair and Troyes Trade Fair here eventually.

Does this sound good to anyone?

Azurian
Apr 11, 2012, 08:46 PM
Here was a new Tech and Wonder I had an idea of...
Tech: Numerals
World Wonder: Abacus of the Sumerians

I am copying pasting this from the SVN discussion thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11407593&posted=1#post11407593

I like the Abacus idea. I was trying to think of a per-mathmatics tech that still involved math.



Did you have an idea for a Y location? For instance Language is X1 Y9.

I would recommend x17 and Y9 or Y11.

The Tech can also be called Numerals, since it can be an umbrella for all the early math counting systems.

The Abacus of the Sumerians Wonder can become obsolete with Mathematics (x29), Banking (x40), or even Mercantilism (x45).


I agree it makes sense to include Numerals as a tech because Numerals slowly replaced Petroglyphs.

The Technical revolution started wuth the Sumerian Abacus.
http://everythingaroundit.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/the-technical-revolution-from-the-sumerian-abacus-to-the-world-changing-computer/




Sevopedia
Tech: Numerals

Tech: Barter-------> Numerals

"The mathematical sciences particularly exhibit order, symmetry, and limitation; and these are the greatest forms of the beautiful." - Aristotle

Epoch: End of Prehistoric (x17, Y9 or Y11).
Unlocks World Wonder: Abacus of the Sumerians (+25 % Gold in Capital City)
Obsolete :maybe Mathematics (x29), Banking (x40), or even Mercantilism (x45)
Production Cost: Similar to A world Wonder ???

A number is an abstract concept; a numeral is a way to express a
number, usually in writing. For example, the number 5 can be thought
of as the concept of "fiveness" which all sets of five objects have in
common; it can be expressed using numerals such as 5, V, |||||, five,
and so on.

There are almost as many number systems as there are languages - the two seem to go hand in hand. One of the ways they are classified is by base.
It's the number of unique digits (including zero, if they have it), before the higher numbers are expressed as combinations of those unique numbers. For instance, the number fourteen is ten-and-four, linguistically; four-ten, fourteen.

It is difficult to imagine counting without numbers, but there was a time when written numbers did not exist. The earliest counting device was the human hand and its fingers. Then, as larger quantities (larger than ten human-fingers could represent) were counted, various natural items like pebbles and twigs were used to help count. Merchants who traded goods not only needed a way to count goods they bought and sold, but also to calculate the cost of those goods. Until numbers were invented, counting devices were used to make everyday calculations. The abacus is one of many counting devices invented to help count large numbers.

Tech Art
http://www.greenteadesign.com/thedesigntree/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/asia2.jpg


World Wonder:Abacus of the Sumerians
(+25 % Gold in Capital City)
Unlock Tech: Numerals
Obsolete :maybe Mathematics (x29), Banking (x40), or even Mercantilism (x45)
Production Cost: Similar to A world Wonder ???
Using calculation devices has a long tradition in humanity. Some of them were very successful and survived for a long time The period 2700–2300 BC saw the first appearance of the Sumerian abacus, a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.


The Sumerians used a base sixty in their number system. And because we ultimately inherited their writing and numbering systems, we have vestiges of that damned base sixty system floating around us, all day every day. Buy a dozen donuts? Special words for eleven and twelve? Twenty-four hours in a day, sixty minutes, sixty seconds, 360 degrees in a circle... all the Sumerians' fault.

The abacus was in use centuries before the adoption of the written modern numeral system and is still widely used by merchants, traders and clerks in Asia, Africa, and elsewhere. The user of an abacus is called an abacist.

Their are several variants of the abacus the were visible in the ancient world.

Roman abacus
The normal method of calculation in ancient Rome, as in Greece, was by moving counters on a smooth table. Originally pebbles, calculi, were used. Later, and in medieval Europe, jetons were manufactured. Marked lines indicated units, fives, tens etc.

Chinese abacus
The earliest known written documentation of the Chinese abacus dates to the 2nd century BC. The abacus has a long history behind it. It was already mentioned in a book of the Eastern Han Dynasty, namely Supplementary Notes on the Art of Figures written by Xu Yue about the year 190 A. D. The similarity of the Roman abacus to the Chinese one suggests that one could have inspired the other, as there is some evidence of a trade relationship between the Roman Empire and China.

Indian abacus
First century sources, such as the Abhidharmakosa describe the knowledge and use of abacus in India. Around the 5th century, Indian clerks were already finding new ways of recording the contents of the Abacus. Hindu texts used the term shunya (zero) to indicate the empty column on the abacus.

Egyptian abacus
The use of the abacus in Ancient Egypt is mentioned by the Greek historian Herodotus, who writes that the Egyptians manipulated the pebbles from right to left, opposite in direction to the Greek left-to-right method. Archaeologists have found ancient disks of various sizes that are thought to have been used as counters. However, wall depictions of this instrument have not been discovered.

Greek abacus
The earliest archaeological evidence for the use of the Greek abacus dates to the 5th century BC. The Greek abacus was a table of wood or marble, pre-set with small counters in wood or metal for mathematical calculations. This Greek abacus saw use in Achaemenid Persia, the Etruscan civilization, Ancient Rome and, until the French Revolution, the Western Christian world.

Persian abacus
During the Achaemenid Persian Empire, around 600 BC the Persians first began to use the abacus. Under Parthian and Sassanian Iranian empires, scholars concentrated on exchanging knowledge and inventions by the countries around them – India, China, and the Roman Empire, when it is thought to be expanded over the other countries.

Wonder Art
http://www.christophercarter.net/pop/abacus.jpg


I agree Constitution should be renamed Charters and that Constitution should be moved to Renaissance Era along with the proposed changes.

Hydromancerx
Apr 11, 2012, 09:03 PM
Please use the standard form when proposing new techs. Such as ...

New Techs

Oratory
Req Techs: Priesthood
Location: X25 Y7
Cost: Same as Philosophy
Leads To: Code of Laws, Drama

Altered Techs

Code of Laws
Req Techs: Writing AND Monarchy AND Oratory

Drama
Req Techs: Literature AND Aesthetics AND Combat Sports AND Folk Dance AND Oratory

----

Note this was already added. Its just an example.

Azurian
Apr 11, 2012, 09:46 PM
We currently have 486 Techs
If we think of at least 14 more we can advertise 500+ Techs for Caveman3Cosmos


Charters
Req Techs: Paper, Philosophy, Democracy
Location:Same as Constitution
Cost: Same as Constitution
Leads To: Cartography, Banking

Unlocks:
Heroes: Robin hood (Already in Caveman to Cosmos)
Estates
Jail

Constitution
What Vokarya Proposed

Altered Techs
Navigation
Requires: Cartography AND Astroblade and Astronomy

Hydromancerx
Apr 11, 2012, 10:40 PM
@MrAzure

Req Techs: Paper, Philosophy, Democracy

I assume you mean ...

Req Techs: Paper AND Philosophy AND Democracy

Because you could have OR too.

Koshling
Apr 12, 2012, 07:56 AM
New Techs

3D printing
Req Techs: 3D modelling, Plastics
Location:
Cost: Same as Superstring theory
Leads To: Rapid prototyping
Buildings: 3D printer feedstock factory (produces 3D printing feedstock), commercial 3D printer (+5% hammers, requires 3D printing feedstock)
Other effects: Cottage line +1 hammer

Ok, next one is a joke that maybe 1 person in 10000 will get ;)

Thiotimoline Resublimation
Re Techs:
Location:
Cost:
Leads to: Time Travel

Vokarya
Apr 12, 2012, 09:08 AM
We currently have 486 Techs[B][U]
If we think of at least 14 more we can advertise 500+ Techs for Caveman3Cosmos


That's an old number. I count 499 right now, and that's without the Charters/Constitution split, and without the "weird quartet" of Cold Fusion, Global Governance, Religion, and Special Promotion. I don't get why those first two are there, and the second two are for some very specific components.

Azurian
Apr 12, 2012, 01:05 PM
New Techs - Civics

Knowledge Download
Prerequisites: Mind Uploading
Cost: 5% More than Mind uploading
Civics: Education
Civic name: Knowledge Download
Civic Cost: Astronomical
Your nation allows all known Knowelege to be downloaded directly to the mind using the power of the Terra Computer.

+20% Science in all Cities
New Units Recieve +3 Experience Points
+10% Matienence Cost of all Cities
+25% Matienence Cost of Overseas Cities



Quantum Government
Prerequisites: Quantum Computing
5% More Than Quantum Computing
Civics: Power
Civics name: Quantum
Civics Cost: Astronomical
The Government is ruled by expensive Quantum Computers in the Capital City who decide what is best for the empire, since the complexity of the fast arrival of multiple technological advances have made it harder to enforce the law by just using the human mind. Under a Quantum Government technological advancement and a cyborg society is highly prized while the arts are seen as "a barbaric relics of the past".


+75% Great Scientist Emergergence
+50% Science From 3 Largest Cities, +10 % from All Cities

-30% Culture in all Cities
-20% Gold in all Cities
+5% Matienence Cost of all Cities
+10% Matienence Cost of Overseas Cities


+5 Happy Face in Capital City
+1 Happy Face with Android Factory
+1 Happy Face with Nano Factory
+1 Happy Face with Advanced Shielding

75% Faster Construction of Nano Factory
75% Faster Construction of Android Factory
75% Faster Construction of Nano Factory
75% Faster Construction of Security Center


Binary Tought
Prerequistite: Terra Computer AND Mind Uploading
cost: 5% More than Terra Computer
Civics Cost: Astronomical
Civics: Language
Civics Name: Binary Tought
Your nation communicaticates via instant tought to both both human and robotic individuals using one planetary language.
+1 Happy
+125% Science AND +125% Culture

Hydromancerx
Apr 12, 2012, 03:54 PM
@MrAzure

If you want to suggest Civics then you should post in the Civics topic (forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436363), not the new tech topic.

Vokarya
Apr 13, 2012, 09:45 AM
Okay, here is a tech I would like to see added from Realism Invictus:

Imperialism (Industrial Era)
Req Techs: Grand War AND Nationalism
Location: X54 Y13
Cost: 4500
Leads to: Labor Union

Altered Techs

Labor Union
Req Techs: Assembly Line AND Marxism AND Imperialism

Vokarya
Apr 13, 2012, 09:54 AM
Another thing I never understood about the tech tree was why the Burj al-Arab (a Modern building) requires Conglomerates (which is a Transhuman era technology).

So, I propose splitting up Conglomerates like this:

Conglomerates (new, Modern Era)
Req Techs: Communication Networks
Location: X78 Y15
Cost: 8100
Leads to: Megacorporations
Allows: Burj al-Arab

Altered Techs

Conglomerates (existing tech)
Rename to Megacorporations
Req Techs: Mesh Networks AND Conglomerates (new)
Allows: Global Stock Exchange

Vokarya
Apr 13, 2012, 09:59 AM
One more thing I noticed: With the new addition of the mathematics technologies, the Sculpture prerequisite for Aesthetics is redundant (Sculpture - Sundial - Geometry, another Aesthetics prerequisite).

Like this:

Altered Techs

Aesthetics
Required Techs: Alphabet AND Geometry AND Sericulture

Hydromancerx
Apr 13, 2012, 02:48 PM
Another thing I never understood about the tech tree was why the Burj al-Arab (a Modern building) requires Conglomerates (which is a Transhuman era technology).

So, I propose splitting up Conglomerates like this:

Conglomerates (new, Modern Era)
Req Techs: Communication Networks
Location: X78 Y15
Cost: 8100
Leads to: Megacorporations
Allows: Burj al-Arab

Altered Techs

Conglomerates (existing tech)
Rename to Megacorporations
Req Techs: Mesh Networks AND Conglomerates (new)
Allows: Global Stock Exchange

It gets really confusing with tags if you just re-name a tech. Can you explain it if the tech was moved and a new tagged tech was put in its place?

That's what we ended up doing with Charters and Constitution.

Vokarya
Apr 13, 2012, 06:43 PM
It gets really confusing with tags if you just re-name a tech. Can you explain it if the tech was moved and a new tagged tech was put in its place?

That's what we ended up doing with Charters and Constitution.

OK. How does this look?

New Techs

Conglomerates (Modern Era)
Req Techs: Communication Networks
Location: X78 Y15
Cost: 8100
Leads to: Megacorporations
Allows: Burj al-Arab

Megacorporations (Transhuman Era)
Req Techs: Conglomerates AND Mesh Networks
Location: X87 Y9
Cost: 12000
Leads to: Planetary Economics
Allows: Global Stock Exchange

Altered Techs

Planetary Economics: Requires Androids AND Environmental Economics AND Fusion AND Megacorporations AND Nanobotics

Azurian
Apr 13, 2012, 08:03 PM
Existing Techs
I think there needs to be more movement speed increases with techs in units in order to reflect the advancing of technology more realistically, and since they are rare in the second part of the game.

For Land Units I chose to start increasing +1 Extra Moves For Land Units with Modern Health Care to keep land units with their basic movement stats as long as possible, and keep a huge tech distance between increases.

For Sea Units I chose Naval Tactics and Sonar since their are plenty of techs that already provide +1 Extra moves to Water Units.

For air Units I chose 7 Techs that Are spread out that increase +1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft because there is almost no techs that do that type of incremental. It is balanced because the 7 Techs are spread out in huge distances.



I recommend the following changes be added to this existing techs. It will speed up battles in the lategame with minimal game unbalance.


Land Units

Modern Health Care (x71)
+1 Extra Moves For Land Units

Artificial Life (x90)
+1 Extra moves For Land Units


Sea Units

Naval Tactics (x49)
+1Extra moves to Water Units

Sonar (x67)
+1 Extra Moves To Water Units

Air Units

Supersonic Flight (x73)
+1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft

Hypersonic flight (x83)
+1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft

Orbital Flight (x87)
+1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft

Planetary Trade (x96)
+1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft

Interstellar Trade (x100)
+1 Extra operation Range for Aircraft

Azurian
Apr 13, 2012, 08:27 PM
Altered Techs

They currently do not improve anything, I propose they give +1 Gold To All Cities to stimulate the early game economy, but as the game continues the +1 gold is going to be really insignificant after a while.

Counting
+1 Gold To All Cities

Arithmetic
+1 Gold To All Cities

Hydromancerx
Apr 13, 2012, 08:47 PM
Counting tech enables Counting Sticks and Tally Stones.

Azurian
Apr 13, 2012, 09:34 PM
Counting tech enables Counting Sticks and Tally Stones.

I was not aware of that. Thanks.


I have some suggestions for new Techs located at the start of The Prehistoric Era.

According to to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_prehistoric_technology
Upper Paleolithic Revolution
Upper Paleolithic Revolution – advancements in human intelligence and technology changed radically with the advent of Behavioral modernity between 60,000 and 30,000 years ago.[2]
Behavioral modernity – a set of traits that distinguish Homo sapiens from extinct hominid lineages. Homo sapiens reached full behavior modernity around 50,000 years ago due to a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, and problem solving.[17][20]
Tools

Since we already have Language, we can introduce Abstract Reasoning, Introspection, and Problem Solving Techs in The Prehistoric Era.


New Techs

Problem Solving
While problem solving accompanies the very beginning of human evolution and especially the history of mathematics,[3] the nature of human problem solving processes and methods has been studied by psychologists over the past hundred years.
x1,Y1
+1 Food in All Cities
Cost: Same As Language
Prerequisite for Tool Making

Reasoning
Reason is a term that refers to the capacity human beings have to make sense of things, to establish and verify facts, and to change or justify practices, institutions, and beliefs.[1] It is closely associated with such characteristically human activities as philosophy, science, language, mathematics, and art, and is normally considered to be a definitive characteristic of human nature.
x1 , Y19
Cost: Same As Language
+1 science In ALL Cities
Leads to Introspection

IntrospectionIntrospection (or internal perception) is the self-examination of one's conscious thoughts and feelings.
x2, Y19
Cost: Same As Gathering
+1 Culture In All Cities
Leads to Cooperation

Reasoning------->Introspection------>Cooperation

Altered Techs
Cooperation
Requires Introspection AND Gathering

Tool Making
Requires Problem Solving AND Scavenging

Azurian
Apr 13, 2012, 10:28 PM
Newspaper
(Invented in 17th century Europe)
X48,Y13
Cost: Same As corporations
Prerequstices: Printing Press And Free Artistry And Photography

Printers Shop +1 Gold
Newspaper Station +1 Culture +1 Science
Provides +1 Newspaper
Obsolete With Computer Networks



Altered Techs
Economics = Newspaper + Algebra + Merchantlism
Corporations = Newspaper + constitution + Economics
Nationalism = Newspaper + Leadership + (flintlock OR social contract OR economics)

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 13, 2012, 10:57 PM
I am almost finished designing a Nomad Paleolithic start mod based on merging C2C and RoH. I have almost all of the Lower Paleolithic tech tree and promotions done. I need to start on the plot production/terrain now and see how it goes with AIAndy's nomad start. I am using a variation on the tech tree proposed by Jonny Smith here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11338917&postcount=207). It is sill a proto type so can't be played yet.

The "duckies" are promotions the nomad unit can build. It is not very informative with out the pedia and strategy texts. I'll see if I can get at least a partially working prototype up soonish. I am having trouble with the Middle Paleolithic techs atm.

Hydromancerx
Apr 13, 2012, 11:31 PM
Looks interesting. When merging it might not be exact, but I do like some of what you have. That's assuming we use what is already in C2C prehistoric era. Note that I was also building onto SO's Prehistoric NWA too. Which is why things are a little funky in the Prehistoric Era.

I do have a question though. What is "Culture 1 - Our Houses"? I also think some are already covered such as "Simple Wood Working" is our normal "Wood Working" and "Pigment Use" is our "Natural Pigments".

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 14, 2012, 12:54 AM
Looks interesting. When merging it might not be exact, but I do like some of what you have. That's assuming we use what is already in C2C prehistoric era. Note that I was also building onto SO's Prehistoric NWA too. Which is why things are a little funky in the Prehistoric Era.

I do have a question though. What is "Culture 1 - Our Houses"? I also think some are already covered such as "Simple Wood Working" is our normal "Wood Working" and "Pigment Use" is our "Natural Pigments".

That is why I said it did not make sense without the pedia "Culture 1 - our houses" is about the art style. The style of housing for (nomadic) cultures depends mostly on the climate and secondly on resources available. In cold climates you need to keep out the wind and cold and keep in heat. In hot dry climates providing shade is important and in wet hot climates walls aren't needed but roofs are. ;) Originally there was a "Culture 0 - the way we do things around here" but that is not restricted to hominids since it is true of some birds and many of the apes.

"Simple Wood Working" is nothing like "Wood Working" nor is "Pigment Use" anything like "Natural Pigments" both are precursors to the latter. we are talking "baby steps" in these techs. "Simple Wood Working" is taking a bowl shaped bit of wood and making a bowl or a long thin branch and making a simple sharpened stick using fairly simple tools. You select the wood based on what it currently looks like. "Pigment Use" is more the earth colours ochre and such like rather than plant based colours which require preparation.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 01:07 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

Check out my changes so far to the tech tree. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&output=html) The new ones would be red.

My plan so far to combine the 2 tree is this ...

*removed*

I am totally not done yet. Please give some feedback and more info on later techs. I am also not sure where to fit in the culture related techs.

Note that I combined Hammer Stones and Percussion Stones into "Stone Working". Since those would be the first types of stone tools.

Techs from Prehistoric NWA like "Microliths" and "Fine Edge Tools" I am not sure where they should go.

You should also notice that some dramatic changes have occurred to fit your style tree such as Fire Making coming very early. Please try to work with me on this to make use of the techs we already have. Thus becoming a hybrid tree of C2C and RoH.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 02:24 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

I sent you and SO an updated list via PM. Once those changes are made we can re-tweak and add more.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 14, 2012, 02:25 AM
Fire making does not come early, controlled fire is captured fire. If it goes out you need to find some wild fire to capture. Al la the movie "Quest for Fire".

I/Johny have two or three more eras, each with 20 or so techs, before or covering the prehistoric era in C2C. Doing knee jerk merging before seeing how things work out is a bad idea. My main bug with the wording in Johny's tech tree is the confusion between the technique/technology and the resulting tools and resultant manufactured goods. I am still not happy with some of the techs because they are linking techs that don't provide something to the game play.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 02:39 AM
Fire making does not come early, controlled fire is captured fire. If it goes out you need to find some wild fire to capture. Al la the movie "Quest for Fire".

Wouldn't that be called "Captured Fire" then? Also where would fire making be then? Because there are different ways to make fire.

Doing knee jerk merging before seeing how things work out is a bad idea.

Well that's why I only added the stuff that made sense to what we have. The rest is just compacting the tree to have more room. Things can be moved around if we need more space.

My main bug with the wording in Johny's tech tree is the confusion between the technique/technology and the resulting tools and resultant manufactured goods.

Yeah I could see that. I both looked at what I already intended or the prehistoric techs to cover and then looked up the words he used (specifically for the stone tool types).

I am still not happy with some of the techs because they are linking techs that don't provide something to the game play.

In general just about any tech can have a building, unit or promotion made for it. But I understand what you mean. That's why many existing techs are based on game features and not necessarily real life (ex. Gathering representing Plant Identification and Scavenging representing Animal identification).

Il Principe
Apr 14, 2012, 11:03 AM
I got an idea, that would mean a lot of work, but would add to the diversity of the game:
Alternative tech trees based on culture.
There are already a few things only buildable if you got the right native culture. I propose increasing this and having techs dependent on culture as well, and more units as well. Like limiting the ancient rocketeer to Asians, and needing an "Early Gunpoder" tech unavailable to other cultures.
That would make conquest more interesting , because you could get a lot by diversifying your empire. ( Maybe countered by increased instability due to ethnic diversity, that could become positve with certain civics, or worse with others).

Prehistoric and most modern and post modern stuff could be left untouched, with the diversity coming in the eras where different cultures were refined enough to differ and not globailzed enough to blend.

If there is interest in such an Idea, I would gladly work out a more detailed concept over the next few days, let´s say till tuesday, got an exam on monday.

Edit: Another thing about techs and culture I just thought of while typing in the civics thread: Could having diverse cultures give resarch boni or mali to certain techs? The concept of Nationalism is harder to develop if you have nation of about 10 different cultures, some american, some european, some asian. Developing of universal translators on the other hand would benefit from such a diversity.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 12:43 PM
@Il Principe

Much of this has been brought up before. So far the consensus has been that its hard enough to build one tech tree let alone cultural ones.

I also think that it would be unfair to limit technology based on culture. What happened if roles were reversed where say Africa developed gunpowder before Asia? Or the Americas discovered the Old World and wiped out the Europeans?

Il Principe
Apr 14, 2012, 02:37 PM
Fair points both of them.
Especially with nomadic start and multimaps being in the works.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 14, 2012, 04:19 PM
I got an idea, that would mean a lot of work, but would add to the diversity of the game:
...
That would make conquest more interesting , because you could get a lot by diversifying your empire. ( Maybe countered by increased instability due to ethnic diversity, that could become positve with certain civics, or worse with others).

Prehistoric and most modern and post modern stuff could be left untouched, with the diversity coming in the eras where different cultures were refined enough to differ and not globailzed enough to blend.

...

Edit: Another thing about techs and culture I just thought of while typing in the civics thread: Could having diverse cultures give resarch boni or mali to certain techs? The concept of Nationalism is harder to develop if you have nation of about 10 different cultures, some american, some european, some asian. Developing of universal translators on the other hand would benefit from such a diversity.

I like the idea of traits giving research boni and mali but not culture.

However I do like your idea of Nationalism being more difficult for multiple cultures and Universal Translator benefiting from multiple cultures.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 14, 2012, 05:21 PM
Previously in C2C we had a tech Stone Tools in RoH this was expanded into

Hard-hammer Percussion - provides the first unnatural weapon, a sharp stone held in two hands to hit things. IE earliest axe. This leads to a better way of working with stone and getting sharper axes.

Soft-hammer Percussion more controlled way of hitting things ;) which leads to the discovery of specialist tools for special needs. IE
Chopping or the tool burins

Piercing or the tool awl

Scrapping or scrapers



So where chopping, piercing and scrapping are now in C2C is wrong.

C2C Fire Making is replaced with Controlled Fire and Fire Making in RoH. Where controlled fire is fire captured from the wild and kept alive as a fire when camped and fire stick or similar when moving about.

C2C Wood Working is replaced in RoH with a number of techs
Simple Wood Working - starting with stripping the bits off a branch or lump off wood to simple shaping of wood that is already mostly the correct shape using the chopping and piercing tools.

Heat Treatment (with Controlled Fire ) leads to the discovery that a poking stick (spear) has a harder point when heat treated and that stones break to provide sharper edges and points when heat treated.


Binding (tying things together with grass, twisted grass (early rope or string) and rawhide), glue - sticky stuff like tar and rawhide working have not been added to my version of the RoH tree yet. All of which are needed for Wood Working (RoH) and Hafting.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 07:51 PM
@Dancing Hoskuld

A few questions ...

1. Whats the difference between Hard-Hammer Percussion and Soft-Hammer Percussion. Can't they just be combined into a single tech called "Stone Tools"? And then have Chopping, Piercing and Scrapping branch off from that?

2. Where's "Fire Making (RoH)" fit into the tree in RoH?

3. Whats the difference between Simple Wood Working and Wood Working can't we just have Wood Working take the spot of Simple Wood Working?

Binding (tying things together with grass, twisted grass (early rope or string) and rawhide), glue - sticky stuff like tar and rawhide working have not been added to my version of the RoH tree yet. All of which are needed for Wood Working (RoH) and Hafting.

4. Ok so how do those connect? Also is there 2 types of wood working? Note I am not talking about Heat Treatment (RoH) , Bark Working (RoH) or Carpentry (C2C).

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 14, 2012, 09:21 PM
@Dancing Hoskuld

A few questions ...

1. Whats the difference between Hard-Hammer Percussion and Soft-Hammer Percussion. Can't they just be combined into a single tech called "Stone Tools"? And then have Chopping, Piercing and Scrapping branch off from that?

2. Where's "Fire Making (RoH)" fit into the tree in RoH?

3. Whats the difference between Simple Wood Working and Wood Working can't we just have Wood Working take the spot of Simple Wood Working?



4. Ok so how do those connect? Also is there 2 types of wood working? Note I am not talking about Heat Treatment (RoH) , Bark Working (RoH) or Carpentry (C2C).

The RoH has when things were discovered not the connections between them. Plus the confusion between technique/technology and the tools or manufactured resources. I am still working on them but today, ie just now everything went pear shaped and crashed.

RoH does not have a fire making tech. It does go into great detail on stone tools though.

Wood Working in C2C may indeed be the same as "Simple Wood Working" in my RoH but I am not sure yet. Heat Treatment may be considered part of c2C Wood Working which is why I called the tech Simple Wood Working. Heat Treatment includes fire hardening and bending techniques for wood which you may have included in your wood working. Carpentry in C2C on the other hand suggests tools - EG saws (stone ones have been found) and vices (living tree branches with rope twists held in place by a stick and stone weight.

Hafting requires some way of getting the wood handle and stone head to stay together. This is done with sticky stuff, tar or tree sap (resin), and binding with grass, grass string or strips of hide (rawhide not tanned hide). So Hafting and binding may be the same thing with rawhide being the resource produced by Skinning.

Art probably should be Culture - Art (painting) or Art - Representational Painting not sure which.

Hydromancerx
Apr 14, 2012, 10:05 PM
Take a lookt a the updated tech tree. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&hl=en_US&gid=0)

1. What are the RoH requirements for ...

- Binding
- Glue
- Rawhide Working
- Bark Working
- Slash and Burn

Ot the better question is what techs are you using from RoH?

2. Carpentry also includes Bone Saws. http://ringofbrodgar.com/w/images/b/be/Bone_Saw.png

3. I think "Petroglyphs" (aka Cave Paintings) covers "Art".

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 15, 2012, 12:46 AM
1. All 220+; 60 Paleolithic, 20 Mesolithic, plus about 30 each for Neolithic, Copper Age, Bronze Age and Iron Age, the plus 21 for Antiquity which gets us up to the Classic era. Although there are some tech missing like felt and many of the sea going ones in particular.

3. Well you could just put them all in one tech and call it stone age if you like.:mischief:

Hydromancerx
Apr 15, 2012, 04:39 AM
1. Are all those techs new or are some repeats of stuff we already have?

4. When you say "wrong" please tell me how it should be fixed. I cannot fix them if you do not tell me what is wrong.

strategyonly
Apr 15, 2012, 07:24 AM
see latest post of SVN thx.

Sgtslick
Apr 15, 2012, 08:32 AM
can't beleive your adding more prehistoric techs, its already so boring. It needs to be faster definately not slower!

DRJ
Apr 15, 2012, 08:40 AM
can't beleive your adding more prehistoric techs, its already so boring. It needs to be faster definately not slower!

Yes, I admit it is boring at times atm. But with the added flavor, with autoend turns option, with wind, rain, ice ages, nomad start and early quests it will be really fun. Redoing the techtree is paving the way for this. After all this is SVN, which means beta, which means if you don't like it play the normal v22 or play ancient start with custom game.

Koshling
Apr 15, 2012, 09:38 AM
Yes, I admit it is boring at times atm. But with the added flavor, with autoend turns option, with wind, rain, ice ages, nomad start and early quests it will be really fun. Redoing the techtree is paving the way for this. After all this is SVN, which means beta, which means if you don't like it play the normal v22 or play ancient start with custom game.

I'd say we should split prehistoric (with these changes) into two eras, so that anyone who doesn't want this even-more-extended early game can start in the second era, without having to miss out on the original prehistoric hunting-oriented fun by going all the way to ancient.

strategyonly
Apr 15, 2012, 10:04 AM
can't beleive your adding more prehistoric techs, its already so boring. It needs to be faster definately not slower!

You got to be kidding me, this is a great era, how do you think the actual people of those ages felt. No restrooms, no toilet paper, no running water, no doctors, no dentist, no chopping utensils till later, no lights, no fire, nothing.. how do you think they felt again, rather horrible, i guess!!!!

I'd say we should split prehistoric (with these changes) into two eras, so that anyone who doesn't want this even-more-extended early game can start in the second era, without having to miss out on the original prehistoric hunting-oriented fun by going all the way to ancient.

I was already planning that, because Hydro asked me to re-do all the Era tech tree "again." By adding more open spaces but this is a HUGE task by itself and will take me approximately two months if not more.

Wanted to add

Paleolithic
Mesolithic
Neolithic

but again this will be a chore by itself just to do:crazyeye::crazyeye:

hotrodlincoln
Apr 15, 2012, 11:32 AM
I had a thought last night. Some people might not feel this is entirely feasible, but i'll suggest it anyway and see what the community's thoughts are. What if, rather than having religions founded on a certain tech such as monotheism, what if monotheism was simply the prerequisite for a tech called "Judaism"?

Currently, we have the situation in the ancient era where one tech right after the other founds a religion. Unless the AI is out-teching you, it's very easy to end up with Ngaiism, Mesopotamianism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, Tengriism, and Buddhism without even particularly trying. Putting the religions on dead end technologies who's only purpose is to found the religion in question would solve the issue of the tech-leader ending up with hundreds of religions he/she doesn't want. Some of these religion slingshots don't even make any particular sense, such as Zoroastrianism being a prerequisite for Hinduism, despite Hinduism predating Zoroastrianism in real life. It's also very difficult to found Buddhism without inadvertently founding Judaism, a religion which is completely unrelated in any way to Buddhism.

This might also help with the religion spam strategy, wherein a player founds every single religion they can get their hands on in order to build tons of monasteries, by at least slowing down their religion acquisition somewhat.

Just some thoughts.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 15, 2012, 11:48 AM
I had a thought last night. Some people might not feel this is entirely feasible, but i'll suggest it anyway and see what the community's thoughts are. What if, rather than having religions founded on a certain tech such as monotheism, what if monotheism was simply the prerequisite for a tech called "Judaism"?

Currently, we have the situation in the ancient era where one tech right after the other founds a religion. Unless the AI is out-teching you, it's very easy to end up with Ngaiism, Mesopotamianism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, Tengriism, and Buddhism without even particularly trying. Putting the religions on dead end technologies who's only purpose is to found the religion in question would solve the issue of the tech-leader ending up with hundreds of religions he/she doesn't want. Some of these religion slingshots don't even make any particular sense, such as Zoroastrianism being a prerequisite for Hinduism, despite Hinduism predating Zoroastrianism in real life. It's also very difficult to found Buddhism without inadvertently founding Judaism, a religion which is completely unrelated in any way to Buddhism.

This might also help with the religion spam strategy, wherein a player founds every single religion they can get their hands on in order to build tons of monasteries, by at least slowing down their religion acquisition somewhat.

Just some thoughts.

This should be on the religion discussion thread. It has been suggested before, I dislike it because it does not stop the leader still grabbing all the religions. All it does is help those players who only want one particular religion in a particular game succed at that task.

hotrodlincoln
Apr 15, 2012, 12:02 PM
This should be on the religion discussion thread. It has been suggested before, I dislike it because it does not stop the leader still grabbing all the religions. All it does is help those players who only want one particular religion in a particular game succed at that task.

As long as the AI was bothering to research the dead-end religious techs, I don't think it will be an issue. On the Rise Of Mankind/A New Dawn mod, Dualism and Ceremonial Burial were the prerequisites for Zoroastrianism and Kemetism, respectively. 9 times out of 10, the AI beat me to these unless I beelined them. Both of these techs were dead end techs. One civ might still be able to grab up a couple of religions, sure, but I think it would stop the situation of seeing one civ found 11 religions. If a player wants to found every last religion, they still can, it will just require more sacrifice on their end. Most of these religions are founded on technologies that are either useful as it is, or lead to useful technologies, which is another part of why the religion spam strategy is so valid. It's all benefit, no sacrifice.

Edit: Should I repost this on the religion thread?

Hydromancerx
Apr 15, 2012, 03:50 PM
I'd say we should split prehistoric (with these changes) into two eras, so that anyone who doesn't want this even-more-extended early game can start in the second era, without having to miss out on the original prehistoric hunting-oriented fun by going all the way to ancient.

Where would it even be separated at? I think its fine as one big Prehistoric Era.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 15, 2012, 05:17 PM
Edit: Should I repost this on the religion thread?

Yes, you should. If you can suggest changes to where in the tech tree some of the religions are being founded to stop them being one after the other I am sure Joseph_II would support you. ;) the more specific you can be the more likely there will be discussion and the increased likelihood of change.

Koshling
Apr 15, 2012, 07:43 PM
I presume the new earlybtechs (scraping, piercing, etc.) are avwork in progress, and will be getting some associated buildings or units or reveals or something? It's just that pure filler techs are rather boring (just checking - I know this has only just gone in, so is likely very unfinished)

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 15, 2012, 07:58 PM
I presume the new earlybtechs (scraping, piercing, etc.) are avwork in progress, and will be getting some associated buildings or units or reveals or something? It's just that pure filler techs are rather boring (just checking - I know this has only just gone in, so is likely very unfinished)

Some of them are intended to provide special things for the nomad units like promotions and upgrades.

Hydromancerx
Apr 15, 2012, 09:49 PM
@Dancing Hoskuld

What do you have for the tech path of Hafting in RoH? I would like to add the Binding and Rawhide Working but I am unsure how you have them set up. Seeing how you did it geives me a better idea on how to add it to C2C's tree.

Azurian
Apr 16, 2012, 12:07 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

I downloaded the Sketch of the ROH tech Tree and most of the Techs are included but reworded in C2C.

I did love some techs C2C doesnt have including Papyrus, Rope, and Postal System.

(I got the Tech Tree Sketch for RoH from this quote)
I am putting this sketch of a tech tree up if anyone needs some ideas, and if I reboot this I will have it for reference.

BlueGenie
Apr 16, 2012, 03:58 AM
Really? Fire Making is removed? It's still in the XML files but not in the game.
This means no Fire Pit and no Charcoal Ever, as that's the tech revealing Charcoal.
Maybe that should be changed?

Cheers

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 04:37 AM
Really? Fire Making is removed? It's still in the XML files but not in the game.
This means no Fire Pit and no Charcoal Ever, as that's the tech revealing Charcoal.
Maybe that should be changed?

Cheers

No its still there. I was confused too.

BlueGenie
Apr 16, 2012, 05:43 AM
Well, I couldn't find it in the Tech Tree but it's in the Civopedia. Slash and Burn tech doesn't seem to require it either, even though it states that it does. In fact all techs that needed Fire Making before now require Controlled Fire instead and I'm unable to plot any path where Fire Making is researched. Unless it's hidden under Carpentry, of course.

Cheers

strategyonly
Apr 16, 2012, 06:43 AM
Well, I couldn't find it in the Tech Tree but it's in the Civopedia. Slash and Burn tech doesn't seem to require it either, even though it states that it does. In fact all techs that needed Fire Making before now require Controlled Fire instead and I'm unable to plot any path where Fire Making is researched. Unless it's hidden under Carpentry, of course.

Cheers

Its actual name is, The_Fire, does that help?

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 07:17 AM
According to the online spreadsheet tech tree (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AsdBtytHP7lodDl2a2tIYkVQSjBIRjRSb29YLW9NZ2c&output=html) Fire Making should be a X13 Y1.

BlueGenie
Apr 16, 2012, 12:14 PM
Above Carpentry (13;3) in my game is empty. I've looked through the whole Prehistoric Technology Advisor in game and still can't find it, even looked at alternate names.

Sorry for coming across a bit hard on this one, it's been a bad day at home and I'm not as calm as I usually am.
I'm sure this is just a transition and it'll come back, and I am on the SVN after all, so am prepared for some bugs and misses. Merely wanted to point out that Fire Making and Charcoal were removed from the game until it was fixed. Looking at the post later I saw how, ehm, strongly it came across, that was not my intention.

Cheers

rightfuture
Apr 16, 2012, 01:01 PM
Wanted to add

Paleolithic
Mesolithic
Neolithic


I vote a big Yes!!!
Prehistory from tribes isn't just a single period of time. It rolls out like the other ages do.
It is worth the time to develop.

Once again I also vote for a receding ice age using the FFH code, with proper water ocean level adjustments (accurate coastlines which changed noticeable since 12,000 b.c.), based on the hard to find ocean level maps, leading to land bridges, altered continents (like Australia, Southeast Asia, the flooded North Sea) and covered lost civilizations like Malta, the Indian sunken temples, the flooded Black sea event, Egyptian sunken cities, etc. It it an accurate and exciting way to start off games of C2C from a single nomadic tribe migrating to glacial free areas, following herds of animals to survive. I think it is worth the development time!

Links to some prehistoric coastline maps and proof

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/sea-level-rise

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ancient.htm
Possibly still not an island, Ireland begins to take shape about 12,000 to 11,000 radiocarbon years ago (http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/eur%2812-.gif) (perhaps 11500 to 10000 BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Sunda_and_Sahul.png
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412048
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
http://www.usefulcharts.com/history/prehistoric-timeline.html
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412205
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/101034/enlarge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood
rare Black Sea flood type events please
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1697038.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klRbcEnLPbU&feature=player_embedded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomorphology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Australia
http://www.newswise.com/articles/archeologists-investigate-ice-age-hominins-adaptability-to-climate-change
http://www.iafi.org/store_new.html
interesting Florida map
http://volusia.org/history/prehistory.htm
http://essayweb.net/history/ancient/prehistory.shtml
interesting human migration map
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/143/3606/574.abstract
http://www.nio.org/index/option/com_nomenu/task/show/tid/85/sid/92/id/74

There is more to terrain changes in recent history than most people are aware of. Love to see these changes modeled a little bit for earth and random maps. It would make that the prehistoric eras more interesting.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 16, 2012, 01:44 PM
OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

strategyonly
Apr 16, 2012, 04:11 PM
OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

I am not understanding what is going on here, you guys, come on now, lets get together and play nice;);)

Go ahead, you know, I trust you DH!!;););););)

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 04:12 PM
OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

"Stone Tools" (C2C) was renamed to "Hard-Hammer Percussion". The reason for just a re-name and not a new tag is that so many buildings and improvements depended upon TECH_STONE_TOOLS that it was easier just to re-name the tech.

So now we have 5 techs ....

1. Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
2. Soft-Hammer Percussion (TECH_SOFT_HAMMER_PERCUSSION)
3. Chopping (TECH_CHOPPING)
4. Scraping (TECH_SCRAPING)
5. Piercing (TECH_PIERCING)

What's the problem? :confused:

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 16, 2012, 04:48 PM
"Stone Tools" (C2C) was renamed to "Hard-Hammer Percussion". The reason for just a re-name and not a new tag is that so many buildings and improvements depended upon TECH_STONE_TOOLS that it was easier just to re-name the tech.

So now we have 5 techs ....

1. Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
2. Soft-Hammer Percussion (TECH_SOFT_HAMMER_PERCUSSION)
3. Chopping (TECH_CHOPPING)
4. Scraping (TECH_SCRAPING)
5. Piercing (TECH_PIERCING)

What's the problem? :confused:

Well in the current C2C SVN I have both Hard-Hammer Percussion and Stone Tools with all the stuff still on Stone Tools:confused:

So what you are saying is there is not what I am seeing at all! And yes I updated the SVN this morning and copied everything across and started a new game. Anyway appointment time now.

strategyonly
Apr 16, 2012, 05:24 PM
So what you are saying is there is not what I am seeing at all! And yes I updated the SVN this morning and copied everything across and started a new game. Anyway appointment time now.


Really can i get a screenie of these both, thx.

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 05:49 PM
@Dancing Hoskuld

Hard-Hammer Percussion still enables the same stuff that Stone Tools did. Noting has been moved from them. The stuff that is enabled are ...

Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
Buildings: Stone Quarry, Quern, Stoneworker's Hut
Revealed Resources: Stone, Marble, Obsidian, Fine Clay
Improvements: Stone Workers Toolshop, Gather Special Stone

If you want those things moved to the other techs let me know what would be more appropriate for them.

Note that all the new techs share the same icon/button so it may be confusing. I have not made any new icon/buttons for the new techs yet since I was unsure if you had some for them already or if a new tech gets removed for some reason.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 16, 2012, 07:32 PM
Really can i get a screenie of these both, thx.

This time when I load it up it is fine.:confused:

I would suggest Hard Percussion cost half what it does. Scraping, Chopping and Piercing one third of there current costs and you drop Soft Percussion.

Slash and Burn needs to move a bit to where you have the tools for slashing. I would suggest Hafting which should probably be called something like Composite Tools to reflect the fact that they are tools made from stone, wood and some binding agent (string, tar, resin or rawhide).

Portable Shelter was a game mechanic in RoH to allow the building of the Nomad Unit. If we are going to use it in C2C then it needs to be after Simple Woodworking or Composite Tools. We then have two of "our" Nomad units. I think Portable Shelter should be a requirement for Stone Shelters.

We need a new colour back ground for nomad unit promotions so only they can get them.

On units: - basically hominids and great apes start with three units "bash with something", "poke at with something" and "throw stuff at". "Throw stuff at" is the C2C stone thrower. At Hard Percussion a new unit "Bash with sharp stone" or earliest Axeman (hits with stone axe head in both hands) becomes available. With Simple Wood Woodworking "Bash with branch shaped for purpose" or Clubman and "Poke at with long branch" or Early Spearman (wood) come along. With Heat Treatment you get Early Spearman (hardened wood).

With Hafting you should get both Spearman (stone), Axeman (stone) and Clubman (stone mace). However you still have the two tech axe making and spear making so perhaps they should stay but be a bit cheaper. Say Hafting at 3/4 cost and Spear/Axe Making being half cost.

BtW the new tech tree has made it impossible to get all three religions (Druid, Shaman and Tengri) and get to Sedentary Lifestyle first.:goodjob:

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 07:54 PM
This time when I load it up it is fine

Well that's good.

I would suggest Hard Percussion cost half what it does. Scraping, Chopping and Piercing one third of there current costs and you drop Soft Percussion.

Costs have not been re-done yet since not all the new prehistoric techs are put in and things could still move around.

Slash and Burn needs to move a bit to where you have the tools for slashing. I would suggest Hafting which should probably be called something like Composite Tools to reflect the fact that they are tools made from stone, wood and some binding agent (string, tar, resin or rawhide).

I was not sure since I did not know if you had like a "Slashing" tech. What are the techs called for the binding? You still have not given a straight answer.

Portable Shelter was a game mechanic in RoH to allow the building of the Nomad Unit. If we are going to use it in C2C then it needs to be after Simple Woodworking or Composite Tools. We then have two of "our" Nomad units. I think Portable Shelter should be a requirement for Stone Shelters.

So what would the requirments be exactly? Also what are the requirements for Composite Tools?

We need a new colour back ground for nomad unit promotions so only they can get them.

So far Blue (General), Purple (Special), Red (General), Brown (Animal), Green (Heroic) and Gold/Gray (Events) have been used. Which would you like; White, Black, Orange, Teal or Magenta?

On units: - basically hominids and great apes start with three units "bash with something", "poke at with something" and "throw stuff at". "Throw stuff at" is the C2C stone thrower. At Hard Percussion a new unit "Bash with sharp stone" or earliest Axeman (hits with stone axe head in both hands) becomes available. With Simple Wood Woodworking "Bash with branch shaped for purpose" or Clubman and "Poke at with long branch" or Early Spearman (wood) come along. With Heat Treatment you get Early Spearman (hardened wood).

Do we have graphics for that? Because the Stone Axeman has a handle so it would be at Axe Making. The Clubman I imagined is just wielding a stick/branch. Again the Stone Spearman actually has stone on it so I am not sure how that found fit into the other without custom graphics.

With Hafting you should get both Spearman (stone), Axeman (stone) and Clubman (stone mace). However you still have the two tech axe making and spear making so perhaps they should stay but be a bit cheaper. Say Hafting at 3/4 cost and Spear/Axe Making being half cost.

Is there a stone maceman graphic?

BtW the new tech tree has made it impossible to get all three religions (Druid, Shaman and Tengri) and get to Sedentary Lifestyle first.

That's good to know.

Thunderbrd
Apr 16, 2012, 08:56 PM
Since we're considering the VERY early techs... Perhaps we should invest some consideration into early pseudo-religions that eventually led into the Faiths we recognize.

The idea would be to have a very early religious tech... perhaps we call it "Reverence" to reflect that finally mankind is considering its place in the world and as a group, someone has officially proposed the concept of a deific source.

At Reverence, the civilization chooses from a list of early religious ideals reflective of the earliest faiths, Sun Worship, Moon Worship, Star Worship, Earth Worship, Sky Worship, Fire Worship, Dream Worship and Sexuality Worship (a VERY dominant outlook translated to us through the grand reverence shown to phallic and womb symbologies of early peoples).

Conceptually, you only get one selection, and the selection made improves one aspect of yield gathering or its application that lasts until the first permanent habitation is established.

This, again, is just an idea.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 16, 2012, 10:48 PM
I was not sure since I did not know if you had like a "Slashing" tech. What are the techs called for the binding? You still have not given a straight answer.

So what would the requirments be exactly? Also what are the requirements for Composite Tools?

I can't as I am still working it out fully. That is why I suggested naming Hafting to Composite Tools. It would require Simple Wood Working and either (Bone Working or Flint Knapping). Fine Edge Tools could require it.

So far Blue (General), Purple (Special), Red (General), Brown (Animal), Green (Heroic) and Gold/Gray (Events) have been used. Which would you like; White, Black, Orange, Teal or Magenta?

I would need to see an example.:mischief:

Do we have graphics for that? Because the Stone Axeman has a handle so it would be at Axe Making. The Clubman I imagined is just wielding a stick/branch. Again the Stone Spearman actually has stone on it so I am not sure how that found fit into the other without custom graphics.


Is there a stone maceman graphic?

Has not stopped us before:mischief:. I think there is an Egyptian unit that uses a stone mace.


Since we're considering the VERY early techs... Perhaps we should invest some consideration into early pseudo-religions that eventually led into the Faiths we recognize.

The idea would be to have a very early religious tech... perhaps we call it "Reverence" to reflect that finally mankind is considering its place in the world and as a group, someone has officially proposed the concept of a deific source.

At Reverence, the civilization chooses from a list of early religious ideals reflective of the earliest faiths, Sun Worship, Moon Worship, Star Worship, Earth Worship, Sky Worship, Fire Worship, Dream Worship and Sexuality Worship (a VERY dominant outlook translated to us through the grand reverence shown to phallic and womb symbologies of early peoples).

Conceptually, you only get one selection, and the selection made improves one aspect of yield gathering or its application that lasts until the first permanent habitation is established.

This, again, is just an idea.

Oh yes that is under consideration ;) Although I was going to start something along the lines Superstition --> Animism --> Totenism (sp?). Superstition and Burials --> Ancestors (worship or intercede with the gods for you etc.). It gets complex.

Hydromancerx
Apr 17, 2012, 12:24 AM
1. Ok so "Hafing" would be replaced by "Composite Tools", got it.

2. They would look something like this ....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=319225&stc=1&d=1334639838

3. Actually it has. There are a bunch of units I would like to add but I don't have graphics for them. (Ex. Megatherium Rider, War Wagon, Petard, Gyrocopter, etc).

4. I have no problem with adding spiritual techs just make sure we consider the ones we already have such as Ancestor Worship, Ceremonial Burial, Shamanism, etc.

Hydromancerx
Apr 17, 2012, 01:35 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

So how about something like this ...

Binding = Weaving AND Skinning

Composite Tools = Simple Wood Working AND Bone Working AND Binding

Hunting = Cooking AND Trapping

Portable Shelter = Hunting AND Stone Building AND Composite Tools

Earth Oven = Fire Making AND Cooking
Note: Earth Oven would be where the Imu would get moved to.

Pottery = Mining AND Earth Oven

BlueGenie
Apr 17, 2012, 01:53 AM
May I throw in the suggestion of halving or reducing by 25% all research costs for Prehistoric Era while you guys are on and fiddling with them anyway?
This is for/from Balancing the new speeds as well as considering the amount of new techs being added.
As it is it already took around 1000 turns to get out of Prehistoric. With more techs it'll take longer yet. At least me, maybe more, people consider research and time to take a little too long in Prehistoric and Ancient while after the Classic Era research tends to go too fast again.
So by decreasing the research times a little or a bit for Prehistory, while you're all at mixing it around anyway, it enables balancers like ls612 to increase research across the board (so in effect Prehistory won't go faster) so the later Eras take longer to research your way through without making Prehistory take 2k turns.

As for Ancient Era it, to me, looks like that will be alright without changes; considering a few more research buildings early on will make research speed up; and then slowed down by increasing research times.

Cheers

Hydromancerx
Apr 17, 2012, 02:05 AM
@BlueGenie

When they have settled down I will do what I did before and basiclly assign each column more or less a cost. Then have it gradually match the price in the unaltered part of the tree. In this case the Classical Era (since things in both the Prehistoric and Ancient Eras got moved).

BlueGenie
Apr 17, 2012, 02:18 AM
Alright. Now I'm sure you'll think of everything when you end up doing that but I feel I want to make sure you do consider two things:
After Writing/Currency/Alphabet/Literature/Aristocracy/Monarchy research rates can get close to quadrupling rather fast and more so when starting to expand more, if able.
Some techs give more than others so they are not created equal. Such techs that are more of a transition, or don't give as much, might be good to keep lower in cost than other.

I'll post this part elsewhere (Discussions/Ideas) too: Is there a way to have an option that reduces your overall science output when you have a larger empire, perhaps coupled with Limited Cities option?
After all when you have a large empire not everyone is communicating perfectly so tehre could be more than several brilliant people working on the same thing, which would reduce the overall science rate.

Cheers

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 17, 2012, 02:19 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

So how about something like this ...

Binding = Weaving AND Skinning

Composite Tools = Simple Wood Working AND Bone Working AND Binding

Hunting = Cooking AND Trapping

Portable Shelter = Hunting AND Stone Building AND Composite Tools

Earth Oven = Fire Making AND Cooking
Note: Earth Oven would be where the Imu would get moved to.

Pottery = Mining AND Earth Oven

Sound good.

@BlueGenie

When they have settled down I will do what I did before and basiclly assign each column more or less a cost. Then have it gradually match the price in the unaltered part of the tree. In this case the Classical Era (since things in both the Prehistoric and Ancient Eras got moved).

Except some should be a natural flow on from an earlier tech and should be quicker. Not all but some like Piercing, Chopping and Scraping. On which Felt Making according to the stories I have seen, Sumerian and Christian, just happen. It probably should be a prerequisite for paper making but belongs earlyish in the tree.

Hydromancerx
Apr 17, 2012, 02:31 AM
1. Ok I will go send SO the details for those then.

2. Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ0uojUHYdA) what you mean?

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 17, 2012, 03:18 AM
1. Ok I will go send SO the details for those then.

2. Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ0uojUHYdA) what you mean?

2. That is high tech compared to the stores I mean. For instance the Christian one has felt socks appearing on the feet of pilgrims/saints when they walked a long way with wool and grass stuffed in their shoes. ;)

BlueGenie
Apr 17, 2012, 05:12 AM
There's an easy way to make techs faster to research via a natural flow without reducing the cost too much; set one AND prerequisite and a few OR requisites where you always need the AND but with certain OR it'd go faster to research.
Like, for instance, Chopping. Has to have Soft Hammer Percussion so that would be the AND. Both Scraping and Piercing could be set as OR requisites.
That would make Chopping faster to research when one of the other is known already, and faster yet when both the others are known already.
This is as per the Tech Diffusion mechanism/global define file in XML stating that any OR tech known boosts research rate when researching a tech, and any subsequent OR also know boosts it more.
*chuckle* Which would make Vokarya scratch his head wondering about any OR redundancy requisites in the tech tree. *grin*

Cheers

Vokarya
Apr 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
*chuckle* Which would make Vokarya scratch his head wondering about any OR redundancy requisites in the tech tree. *grin*

Cheers

OR prerequisites are fairly easy to watch; it's just a matter of tracking them back to their last common ancestor and seeing if there's overlap with other prerequisites. My biggest problem right now is keeping up with all the changes and my current level system for checking techs. I will have to re-calibrate all the numbers for the Classical Era and up once Prehistoric settles out.

I just posted to the SVN thread that Pottery and Mining are currently forming a closed loop. Both require the other, and you would never be able to research either of them.

BlueGenie
Apr 17, 2012, 12:30 PM
*grin* In this case the OR, even if redundant, would serve the purpose of making some technologies faster to research when you have some OR dependencies. In my example all three of Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping have Soft Hammer Percussion as prerequisite so to research any and all of them the others aren't needed to have BUT with an OR dependency stuck on it the research rate will increase for each of the OR you have.
So they'd not be needed per se, but would be there for a reason anyway, making it easier to tech if other areas are known.

Cheers

Vokarya
Apr 17, 2012, 06:42 PM
*grin* In this case the OR, even if redundant, would serve the purpose of making some technologies faster to research when you have some OR dependencies. In my example all three of Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping have Soft Hammer Percussion as prerequisite so to research any and all of them the others aren't needed to have BUT with an OR dependency stuck on it the research rate will increase for each of the OR you have.
So they'd not be needed per se, but would be there for a reason anyway, making it easier to tech if other areas are known.

Cheers

I definitely agree. I really like OR prerequisites. The only time it's actually redundant is if an AND prerequisite is required for every OR prerequisite, but that means the problem is the AND prerequisite.

Vokarya
Apr 17, 2012, 08:55 PM
Something else I just noticed, and I don't know why I missed it before, but Polytheism has a redundant Sacrifice Cult requirement. The current requirements are Dualism + Masonry + Sacrifice Cult, but Sacrifice Cult is also listed as a Dualism prerequisite.

So, I suggest this:

Polytheism
Required Techs: Dualism AND Masonry

JosEPh_II
Apr 17, 2012, 09:19 PM
@Vokarya

This is where we have one of the Religion founding clusters and desperately needs to be changed.

Sacrifice and Dualism should Not be required techs for Poly.

Dualism and Sacrifice both give religions which leads directly into Poly giving the Tech Race leader 3 religions in a Very short tech span. Must Not happen. And neither Sacrifice or Dualism should be a reguired/prereq tech for each other either.

Please separate these 3 religion founding techs from each other.

We have other techs that do the same thing with more religions further down the tech tree. Please be aware of this. It has been an ongoing discussion for some time now. We did break up the Poly/Mono/Bhudd chain earlier with some good results.

JosEPh

Vokarya
Apr 17, 2012, 10:28 PM
@Vokarya

This is where we have one of the Religion founding clusters and desperately needs to be changed.

Sacrifice and Dualism should Not be required techs for Poly.

Dualism and Sacrifice both give religions which leads directly into Poly giving the Tech Race leader 3 religions in a Very short tech span. Must Not happen. And neither Sacrifice or Dualism should be a reguired/prereq tech for each other either.

Please separate these 3 religion founding techs from each other.

We have other techs that do the same thing with more religions further down the tech tree. Please be aware of this. It has been an ongoing discussion for some time now. We did break up the Poly/Mono/Bhudd chain earlier with some good results.

JosEPh

I agree with you that the cluster needs breaking up. That was not my intent here - I was just trying to point out where there is a prerequisite on the tech tree that is meaningless in terms of the game, because you will always have one of the prerequisites as part of researching another. At the moment, I can't think of any new tech ideas beyond a Calculus tech that would sit at the very beginning of the Renaissance. I'll write it up later.

JosEPh_II
Apr 18, 2012, 05:48 PM
Okay, I just assumed you were helping SO place the new techs. Sorry.

JosEPh

Vokarya
Apr 18, 2012, 09:25 PM
Okay, I just assumed you were helping SO place the new techs. Sorry.

JosEPh

No, I'm just trying to make sure that the tech tree is not more complex than it needs to be. If I can think of any changes that would help, I will be sure to post them.

What is the other cluster you are thinking of?

JosEPh_II
Apr 19, 2012, 04:54 PM
Confucianism, Taoism, (3rd one just drew a blank) is another group.

Mono (Judaism) and Buddhism are still next door neighbors too.

I need to look at the tree again, especially with all these new changes.

JosEPh :)

Vokarya
Apr 20, 2012, 08:07 AM
I came up with a few questions about the names of technologies.

In my Stories & Tales thread, I noticed that Astronatutics is probably misspelled and should be Astronautics instead. See the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics).

Also, I am not a big fan of naming techs "Ancient" X, "Modern" X, or "Advanced" X if a more descriptive name is available. I would like to propose the following renames for clarity:
Modern Physics becomes Particle Physics
Modern Sports becomes Professional Sports
Modern Warfare becomes Combined Arms

What do you think?

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 20, 2012, 09:01 AM
I came up with a few questions about the names of technologies.

In my Stories & Tales thread, I noticed that Astronatutics is probably misspelled and should be Astronautics instead. See the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics).

Also, I am not a big fan of naming techs "Ancient" X, "Modern" X, or "Advanced" X if a more descriptive name is available. I would like to propose the following renames for clarity:
Modern Physics becomes Particle Physics
Modern Sports becomes Professional Sports
Modern Warfare becomes Combined Arms

What do you think?

Combined Arms sounds like something one of the Roman Emperors initiated in one of the military reforms.

Vokarya
Apr 20, 2012, 09:43 AM
Combined Arms sounds like something one of the Roman Emperors initiated in one of the military reforms.

I was actually thinking of Civilization II here. Combined Arms is Advanced Flight + Mobile Warfare in that game, and allows Helicopters and Paratroopers. "Modern Warfare" just says to me, "Modern compared to what?" I really have this naming issue with Ancient Ballistics and Ancient Medicine, but I can't think of better names or I would suggest them.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 20, 2012, 02:55 PM
I was actually thinking of Civilization II here. Combined Arms is Advanced Flight + Mobile Warfare in that game, and allows Helicopters and Paratroopers. "Modern Warfare" just says to me, "Modern compared to what?" I really have this naming issue with Ancient Ballistics and Ancient Medicine, but I can't think of better names or I would suggest them.

What facinates me about medicine or medications is that f the 250 remidies from the time of Hatshepsut 200 of the recipies were still the same in 1950, or at least the main ingredients. Improvements in extraction technique and clocks mean that the prayers were no longer needed to time the preparations. The other 50 are either insuffcently translatable to tell or better active ingrediants were found in the "New World". In the 1950's chemestry had advanced enough that we could make the active ingrediants rather than harvest them from nature.

Hydromancerx
Apr 20, 2012, 04:17 PM
I was actually thinking of Civilization II here. Combined Arms is Advanced Flight + Mobile Warfare in that game, and allows Helicopters and Paratroopers. "Modern Warfare" just says to me, "Modern compared to what?" I really have this naming issue with Ancient Ballistics and Ancient Medicine, but I can't think of better names or I would suggest them.

"Modern" as in the Modern Era.

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 12:50 PM
New Tech: Homo Cosmicus
Cosmicus - Humanity's climb to the status of a space-faring civilization, a necessary step to increase the lifetime of this technical civilization, the term “cosmicus” comes from the father of Russian astronautics, Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, who envisioned humanity becoming “homo cosmicus” or a space-faring civilization — we will become “homo cosmicus” when the first human is born, lives, grows old and dies in space, returning to Earth only as a visitor
Requires Artificial Life
Requires Orbital Megastructures

Prereq For Lunar Megastructure

Unlocks
Wonder: Cosmicus Memorial

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 03:43 PM
A list of inventions that changed the world that could be made into Techs or as some sort of building. Out of the 101 i choose the most plausible that could be included in the game.

http://technology.lilithezine.com/101-Inventions.html

Abacus, AD190
Barbed wire, 1873
Barcode, 1973
Ballpoint Pen 1938
Button, 1235
Camcorder, 1983
Credit card, 1950
Dynamite, 1867
Fax machine, 1843
Flushing toilet, 1597
GPS, 1978
iPod, 2001
Kettle, 1891
Laptop, 1982
Lawnmower, 1830
Lead pencil, 1564
Locks, 2000BC
Microscope, 1590
Microwave oven, 1946
Mobile phone, 1947
Post-it note, 1973
SMS,(Text-message) 1992
Spectacles,(glasses) 1451
Syringe, 1844
The Pill, 1951
Thermometer, 1592
Toothbrush, 1498
Vibrator, (sexToy) 1902
Weighing scales, 5000BC
Zipper, 1913

Koshling
Apr 22, 2012, 03:50 PM
Lawnmower, 1830

Changed the world!!?

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 03:53 PM
I came up with a few questions about the names of technologies.

In my Stories & Tales thread, I noticed that Astronatutics is probably misspelled and should be Astronautics instead. See the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronautics).

Also, I am not a big fan of naming techs "Ancient" X, "Modern" X, or "Advanced" X if a more descriptive name is available. I would like to propose the following renames for clarity:
Modern Physics becomes Particle Physics
Modern Sports becomes Professional Sports
Modern Warfare becomes Combined Arms

What do you think?

I agree with you.
Modern Physics should become Particle Physics

Modern Sports should become Professional Sports
Wonder: FIFA World Cup (Soccer)
Modern Warfare should become Armored warfare


Advanced Computers should be Photonic Computers

Brain Machine Interface should be Neurotechnology

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 04:04 PM
Changed the world!!?

Back in the old days only the very wealthy could afford to pay teams of scythe-wielding labourers to keep their pristine lawns in check (or get sheep to do the job, and put up with with droppings between the toes). A farmer's son and textile mill labourer called Edwin Budding changed that in 1830, when, inspired by rotary machines used to trim velvet, he joined forces with the businessman John Ferrabee to build a self-powered cylinder mower almost identical to those still in use.

The masses could now afford trimmed lawns and the lawnmower is one of the primary reasons Suburbia became a reality.

The TECH could be Groundskeeping

Groundskeeping is the activity of tending an area of land for aesthetic or functional purposes; typically in an institutional setting. It includes mowing grass, trimming hedges, pulling weeds, planting flowers, etc. The U.S. Department of Labor estimated that more than 900,000 workers are employed in the landscape and groundskeeping services industry in the United States in 2006. Of these over 300,000 workers were groundskeepers for golf courses, schools, resorts, and public parks.

If it wasnt for the lawnmover most homeowners and businesses would not have lawns, since the labor to maintain lawns was very expensive. Forget about modern baseball stadiums, golf courses, and parks as well as tractors and modern farming, we would be using the plough or some mechanical version of it.

Academic Text
Suburbia and Self
http://books.google.com/books?id=ocnjtUmNpskC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=lawn+mowers+suburbia&source=bl&ots=ihMrJE6P4-&sig=-8dYM6mHlAGDmOq5PL7dGI1l4oI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aHOUT6vpCKmhiQLh94EO&ved=0CJcBEOgBMAg#v=onepage&q=lawn%20mowers%20suburbia&f=false

9 sentences down.. One limiting factor for a lawn was..

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 22, 2012, 04:21 PM
Flushing toilet, 1597

Minoan's had these before the Greeks did their thing. ;) They are another "lost technology".

Weighing scales, 5000BC

Usually grouped under the tech Standardisation for weights and measures plus rations and army equipment. ;) The actual level of standardisation improves with time too. From
A "foot" of length = the local leader's foot length to
A "foot" of length = the king's foot length to
"On the second Sunday in the month of June in te year 15-- line up 16 men big and small toe to heal. measure the total length and divide by 16. to
how far light travels in ...


If we have it as a tech it should require mathematics and lead to calendar. It or its building should provide a benefit to trade and reduce crime .

Vokarya
Apr 22, 2012, 04:37 PM
I agree with you.
Modern Physics should become Particle Physics

Modern Sports should become Professional Sports
Wonder: FIFA World Cup (Soccer)
Modern Warfare should become Armored warfare


Advanced Computers should be Photonic Computers

Brain Machine Interface should be Neurotechnology

Your Armored Warfare is Armored Vehicles and Mechanized Warfare, which I don't have problems with. Those are nicely straightforward. The Modern Warfare technology is way more comprehensive, so it needs a broader term.

I like Photonic Computers. I think the best word here simply doesn't exist yet. It's one step below Quantum Computing, so that can't work.

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 04:41 PM
Minoan's had these before the Greeks did their thing. ;) They are another "lost technology".



Usually grouped under the tech Standardisation for weights and measures plus rations and army equipment. ;) The actual level of standardisation improves with time too. From
A "foot" of length = the local leader's foot length to
A "foot" of length = the king's foot length to
"On the second Sunday in the month of June in te year 15-- line up 16 men big and small toe to heal. measure the total length and divide by 16. to
how far light travels in ...


If we have it as a tech it should require mathematics and lead to calendar. It or its building should provide a benefit to trade and reduce crime .

Standardization (x31 y 1 )
Prerequisite Mathmatics AND Calendar
Enables Sanitation AND Machinery AND Smithing

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 04:54 PM
Your Armored Warfare is Armored Vehicles and Mechanized Warfare, which I don't have problems with. Those are nicely straightforward. The Modern Warfare technology is way more comprehensive, so it needs a broader term.

I like Photonic Computers. I think the best word here simply doesn't exist yet. It's one step below Quantum Computing, so that can't work.

What about Information Warfare?
Global Warfare?
Armed forces?


For Advanced Computers maybe
The computers in Iron Man and Minority Report?

Augmented Computers
Holographic Computers
Virtual Computers

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89KxxpmMhi4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4bJEqoCAuI&feature=related

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 22, 2012, 04:55 PM
Standardization (x31 y 1 )
Prerequisite Mathmatics AND Calendar
Enables Sanitation AND Machinery AND Smithing

Building: Standards Office - can't think of a better name:)

Affects
-1 food (no more sawdust in the flour)
-5 crime
+1:gold:

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 11:38 PM
Microscope (x44)
Prerequiste Astronomy AND Physics AND Optics
Enables Electron Microscope AND Scientific Method AND Chemistry


Electron Microscope (x60)
Prerequistes Modern Sanitation AND Refrigeration AND Quantum Physics

Enables Advanced Metullargy AND Organic Chemistry AND Fission


Molecular Biology (x68)
Prequistes Plastics And Organic Chemistry And Modern Physics
Enables Biological Warfare AND Modern Healthcare AND Astrobiology


Digital Electronics (x74)
Prerequisites Electronics AND Microprocessor AND Globalization
Enables Plastic Electronics AND Nanotechnology AND Virtual Reality

Digital Art (x76)
Prerequistes Pop Art AND Computer Networks AND 3D modeling


Space Telescopes (x74)
Prerequistes Astro-Environmental Systems AND Supersonic Flight AND Robotics
Enables Astrogeology Planetary Exploration AND Astrobiology

Azurian
Apr 22, 2012, 11:58 PM
double post

Azurian
Apr 23, 2012, 12:01 AM
I have a Tech Tree with about 100+ new Techs for the Transhuman and Galactic Era organized with the current Techs included. feel Free to look at it and hopefully some of them might inspire you.


Download it below

Vokarya
Apr 25, 2012, 08:50 PM
Here are two more ideas I had for new technologies. One is Calculus; we have just about every other stage of mathematics at this point. The other is Criminology. I was thinking that Police Station and Alcatraz don't fit perfectly with the technologies that we currently have listed for them.

Calculus (Renaissance Era)
Req Techs: Algebra
Location: X42 Y19
Cost: 1700
Leads to: Economics, Physics
Bonuses: +2 science from Mathematics Academy, +2 science from Observatory

Criminology (Industrial Era)
Req Techs: Psychology
Location: X58 Y1
Cost 5500
Leads to: ??? (don't know)
Allows: Police Station, Police Academy, Alcatraz
Bonuses: +1 gold (offsets upkeep) and +5 espionage from Jail

Altered Techs

Economics
Req Techs: Mercantilism AND (Algebra OR Calculus)
If you take the time to research Calculus, you'll get Economics faster.

Physics
Req Techs: Acoustics AND Astronomy AND Calculus

Hydromancerx
Apr 25, 2012, 09:02 PM
Criminology (Industrial Era)
Req Techs: Psychology
Location: X58 Y1
Cost 5500
Leads to: ??? (don't know)
Allows: Police Station, Police Academy, Alcatraz
Bonuses: +1 gold (offsets upkeep) and +5 espionage from Jail


So basically everything at Marxism gets moved to Criminology including the Police Squad, Police Dog, Police Dog Trainer and Electric Chair? It should probably require Marxism too if we are moving all those back a few techs.

Vokarya
Apr 25, 2012, 09:48 PM
So basically everything at Marxism gets moved to Criminology including the Police Squad, Police Dog, Police Dog Trainer and Electric Chair? It should probably require Marxism too if we are moving all those back a few techs.

Yes, everything except the Marxist civic, the Social Services building, and the obsoleting of the Festival building should get moved to Criminology and then add Marxism as a second prerequisite for Criminology. I wasn't totally sure if Marxism should have been a second prerequisite. Do you happen to know why Police Station was put at Marxism?

Hydromancerx
Apr 26, 2012, 02:17 AM
Yes, everything except the Marxist civic, the Social Services building, and the obsoleting of the Festival building should get moved to Criminology and then add Marxism as a second prerequisite for Criminology. I wasn't totally sure if Marxism should have been a second prerequisite. Do you happen to know why Police Station was put at Marxism?

You would have to ask Zappra or Afforess. It has been in since RoM/AND.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 26, 2012, 02:56 AM
I think you will find that it was there in vanilla BtS also.

Hydromancerx
Apr 26, 2012, 05:08 AM
I think you will find that it was there in vanilla BtS also.

Was it? I thought it was Jails.

EDIT: I don't see it.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/bts#buildings

All I see is the Intelligence Agency and Security Bureau

Vokarya
Apr 26, 2012, 07:28 AM
Was it? I thought it was Jails.

EDIT: I don't see it.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/bts#buildings

All I see is the Intelligence Agency and Security Bureau

I don't see the Police Station at all in regular BTS, just the Jail. I was just curious - it seems like Marxism may have just been the nearest available technology, or Police Station leads into Intelligence Agency.

Koshling
Apr 26, 2012, 09:33 AM
I don't see the Police Station at all in regular BTS, just the Jail. I was just curious - it seems like Marxism may have just been the nearest available technology, or Police Station leads into Intelligence Agency.

Yeh. Marxism -> Intelligence agency seems fine. Marxism -> police station not so much. (Marxism -> secret police station maybe ;))

BlueGenie
Apr 26, 2012, 02:56 PM
May I ask:
1. How is opposed to having Dead-End techs?
2. Why?

Cheers

Hydromancerx
Apr 26, 2012, 06:25 PM
May I ask:
1. How is opposed to having Dead-End techs?


In general we try to avoid dead end techs except for the alternative timeline techs. I think the only other dead end tech is Portable Shelters which I will fix soon.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 26, 2012, 06:30 PM
May I ask:
1. How is opposed to having Dead-End techs?
2. Why?

Cheers

As far as I can see there is no reason not to have dead end techs. It is just a preferencs of the tech tree developers.

strategyonly
Apr 26, 2012, 07:16 PM
Around 524 Techs in C2C as of 26 Apr 12 :eek::eek:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175013&postcount=4

Hydromancerx
Apr 26, 2012, 07:56 PM
Well take out around 3 or 4 since there is the promotion tech and couple hidden techs.

We are bound to add more to the tree based on what people have posted in this thread plus the Galactic Era will most likely get more once we start filling it in with stuff.

I could see us getting to 600+ in the not so distant future.

Vokarya
Apr 26, 2012, 09:41 PM
I only count 21 rows and 25 columns. 25 * 21 = 525. -1 empty slot is 524. So we're not at 600 yet, but we could easily get there. I have 520 techs in my tech tree spreadsheet now, which matches up.

Azurian
Apr 28, 2012, 12:24 PM
revised below

T C
Apr 28, 2012, 01:09 PM
Social networks increase production, not in my experience. ;)

When it comes to the pre-historic tech tree, is it going to change much for the nomad start or stay as it is? If it's the latter then I feel that having hunting and hunters so early in the tech tree is a little strange. At the moment, it makes sense to beeline hunting and get the powerful hunter unit, instead of wading through the many techs that lead to stone axemen and spearsmen. Indeed I will get hunters well before even slingers. So for quite a long time, hunters are used as the main offensive units by both player and AI.

I would suggest moving hunters back in the tech tree, and maybe one or two more units that are not cultural ones to complement the clubmen/stone thrower/slinger.

strategyonly
Apr 28, 2012, 01:31 PM
I only count 21 rows and 25 columns. 25 * 21 = 525. -1 empty slot is 524. So we're not at 600 yet, but we could easily get there. I have 520 techs in my tech tree spreadsheet now, which matches up.

thx, my bad:blush: fixed.

Azurian
Apr 28, 2012, 04:00 PM
New tech: Cloud Computing
(20XX-Present)
(x78 Y7)
Good: Server Farm
Requires: Communication Networks
Requires: Knowledge Management
Prerequiste For:Rapid Prototyping
Prerequiste For: Wearable Computers
Prerequiste For: Automated Traffic
Enables: Cyber Terrorism (Crime) Information Security Center (Anti-Crime)
All Buildings and Wonders Require good: Server farm

Buildings


Social Media Network
(req. Computer networks)
(+3 :culture: +1 Happy)
+2 culture Silicon Valley
+1 :gold: from Billboards
+1 :culture: from Computer Network
+ 2 :espionage: from Police Station

Online Shipping Warehouse
(req. Computer networks)
)+2 :hammers: +2 :gold:)
+ 2 :gold: Warehouse
+2 :gold: Shipyard



App Store
(req. Computer networks)
+2 :happy: +2 :gold:


E-book Publisher
Replaces Book Factory
A little higher stats than book factory

Wonders

World Wonder: Facebook
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 12 Social Media Network
+ 35 :culture: +5 :science: +5 :hammers: +5 :gold:
+1 :gold: with Modern Offices
+1 Social Media Network In ALL Cities
+1 culture Basketball Court
+1 culture Battlebot Arena
+1 culture Bowling Alley
+1 culture Boxing Ring
+1 culture Cricket Field
+1 culture Croquet Field
+1 culture Golf Course
+1 culture Hockey Rink
+1 culture Ice Rink
+1 culture Interstellar Speedway
+2 culture Major League Stadium
+2 culture Olympics
+1 culture Outdoor Recreation Center
+1 culture Polo Field
+1 culture Public Pool
+1 culture Recreation Center
+1 culture Roller Derby Track
+1 culture Rugby Field
+1 culture Skate Park
+1 culture Ski Resort
+1 culture Soccer Field
+1 culture Softball Field
+1 culture Speedway
+1 culture Tennis Court
+1 culture Training Dojo
+1 culture Volleyball Court
+1 culture Water Raceway
+1 culture Winter Chalet
+1 culture X-Games
+1 culture Zero G Sports Arena


World Wonder: Google
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Computer Networks
Requires 6 Fiber Optic Cable Factory
+ 25 :culture: +25 :hammers: +25 :science: + 20 :gold: :
+1 :gold: with Fiber Optic Cable Factory
+1 gold Computer Networks
+ 3 :espionage: Police Station
+1 science Aerospace Complex
+ 1 :science: Anthropology Lab
+1 :science: Archaeology Lab
+1 :science: Chemistry Lab
+1 science: Marine Biology Lab
+1 science:Microbiology Lab
+1 science Astrobiology Lab
+1 science: Vaccine Lab
+1 science:Voconology Lab
+1 science Space Lab
+1 science Subterranean Lab
+1 science Animal Testing Lab
+1 science Biological Warfare Lab (Adavned Stats)
+1 science Deep Sea Lab
+1 science Geology Lab)
+1 science Metorite Lab
+1 science Microbiology Lab
+1 science Paleontology Lab
+1 science Physics Lab
+1 science Quantum Lab (Advaned Stats)
+1 science Radio Telescope (Advaned Stats)
+1 science Robotics Lab


World Wonder: Apple [ the 2010 Version]
Starts Golden Age
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Computer Networks
Requires 2 Recording Studio
Requires 2 Art Gallery
Requires 2 Movie Studio
(+ 12 :gold: + 7 :Happy +10 :culture:)
( + 1:gold: +1 :happy App Store
+2 :culture: +2 gold Recording Studio
+2 :culture: +2 gold Art Gallery
+2 :culture:+2 gold Movie Studio

World Wonder: Amazon
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Online Shipping Warehouse
Requires 6 Manufacuring Plant
+ 45 :gold: + 1 Happy
+2 gold Manufacturing Plant
+1 gold Aluminum Factory (Advanced Stats)
+1 gold Android Factory (Advaned Stats)
+1 gold Candy Store
+1 gold Distillery
+1 gold Factory (Advaned Stats))
+1 gold Furniture Factory
+1 gold Glass Factory
+1 gold Leather Factory
+1 gold Nylon Factory
+1 gold Perfume Maker
+1 gold Rope Factory
+1 gold Semiconductor Factory
+1 goldTire Factory
+1 gold Toy Factory
+1 gold Water Bottle Factory

All Wonders Obsolete: Terra Computer

Koshling
Apr 28, 2012, 04:09 PM
New tech: Cloud Computing
(20XX-Present)
(x78 Y7)
Good: Server Farm
Requires: Communication Networks
Requires: Knowledge Management
Prerequiste For:Rapid Prototyping
Prerequiste For: Wearable Computers
Prerequiste For: Automated Traffic
Enables: Cyber Terrorism (Crime) Information Security Center (Anti-Crime)
All Buildings and Wonders Require good: Server farm

Buildings


Social Media Network
(req. Computer networks)
(+3 :culture: +1 Happy)
+2 culture Silicon Valley
+1 :gold: from Billboards
+1 :culture: from Computer Network
+ 2 :espionage: from Police Station

Online Shipping Warehouse
(req. Computer networks)
)+2 :hammers: +2 :gold:)
+ 2 :gold: Warehouse
+2 :gold: Shipyard



App Store
(req. Computer networks)
+2 :happy: +2 :gold:


E-book Publisher
Replaces Book Factory
A little higher stats than book factory

Wonders

World Wonder: Facebook
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 12 Social Media Network
+ 35 :culture: +5 :science: +5 :hammers: +5 :gold:
+1 :gold: with Modern Offices
+1 Social Media Network In ALL Cities
+1 culture Basketball Court
+1 culture Battlebot Arena
+1 culture Bowling Alley
+1 culture Boxing Ring
+1 culture Cricket Field
+1 culture Croquet Field
+1 culture Golf Course
+1 culture Hockey Rink
+1 culture Ice Rink
+1 culture Interstellar Speedway
+2 culture Major League Stadium
+2 culture Olympics
+1 culture Outdoor Recreation Center
+1 culture Polo Field
+1 culture Public Pool
+1 culture Recreation Center
+1 culture Roller Derby Track
+1 culture Rugby Field
+1 culture Skate Park
+1 culture Ski Resort
+1 culture Soccer Field
+1 culture Softball Field
+1 culture Speedway
+1 culture Tennis Court
+1 culture Training Dojo
+1 culture Volleyball Court
+1 culture Water Raceway
+1 culture Winter Chalet
+1 culture X-Games
+1 culture Zero G Sports Arena


World Wonder: Google
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Computer Networks
Requires 6 Fiber Optic Cable Factory
+ 25 :culture: +25 :hammers: +25 :science: + 20 :gold: :
+1 :gold: with Fiber Optic Cable Factory
+1 gold Computer Networks
+ 3 :espionage: Police Station
+1 science Aerospace Complex
+ 1 :science: Anthropology Lab
+1 :science: Archaeology Lab
+1 :science: Chemistry Lab
+1 science: Marine Biology Lab
+1 science:Microbiology Lab
+1 science Astrobiology Lab
+1 science: Vaccine Lab
+1 science:Voconology Lab
+1 science Space Lab
+1 science Subterranean Lab
+1 science Animal Testing Lab
+1 science Biological Warfare Lab (Adavned Stats)
+1 science Deep Sea Lab
+1 science Geology Lab)
+1 science Metorite Lab
+1 science Microbiology Lab
+1 science Paleontology Lab
+1 science Physics Lab
+1 science Quantum Lab (Advaned Stats)
+1 science Radio Telescope (Advaned Stats)
+1 science Robotics Lab


World Wonder: Apple [ the 2010 Version]
Starts Golden Age
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Computer Networks
Requires 2 Recording Studio
Requires 2 Art Gallery
Requires 2 Movie Studio
(+ 12 :gold: + 7 :Happy +10 :culture:)
( + 1:gold: +1 :happy App Store
+2 :culture: +2 gold Recording Studio
+2 :culture: +2 gold Art Gallery
+2 :culture:+2 gold Movie Studio

World Wonder: Amazon
Requires Size 18 City
Requires 6 Online Shipping Warehouse
Requires 6 Manufacuring Plant
+ 45 :gold: + 1 Happy
+2 gold Manufacturing Plant
+1 gold Aluminum Factory (Advanced Stats)
+1 gold Android Factory (Advaned Stats)
+1 gold Candy Store
+1 gold Distillery
+1 gold Factory (Advaned Stats))
+1 gold Furniture Factory
+1 gold Glass Factory
+1 gold Leather Factory
+1 gold Nylon Factory
+1 gold Perfume Maker
+1 gold Rope Factory
+1 gold Semiconductor Factory
+1 goldTire Factory
+1 gold Toy Factory
+1 gold Water Bottle Factory

All Wonders Obsolete: Terra Computer

You can't use real names. But the concepts seem sound.

Azurian
Apr 28, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't use real names. But the concepts seem sound.

What about parody names?
Google ==> Smoogle Corp.
Facebook ==>Socialbook
Amazon ===> Umazon Inc.
Apple==> Pear Corp.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 04:32 PM
@MrAzure

You should take a look at this thread....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=440465&page=4

Some alternative stuff from the thread above.

MMORPG = World of Neverquest
File Sharing = Panster
Social Media Site = SpaceB00k
Online Encyclopedia = Komitipedia
Online Garage Sale = CongoMarket
Internet Television = MyVid
Search Engine = Gooble

Koshling
Apr 28, 2012, 04:32 PM
What about parody names?
Google ==> Smoogle Corp.
Facebook ==>Socialbook
Amazon ===> Umazon Inc.
Apple==> Pear Corp.

I have a feeling some of these semi-made-up corporations already implicitly exist in some events - we should be consistent with the naming if so.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 28, 2012, 04:36 PM
What is the point of "trails" building. It is available long before its benefits exist. If you dropped the maintenance cost on it then there may be some point in building it.

Koshling
Apr 28, 2012, 04:39 PM
What is the point of "trails" building. It is available long before its benefits exist. If you dropped the maintenance cost on it then there may be some point in building it.

There is a period during which it's useful, but its about half an era after it becomes available. Until then it's just a penalty to build it, but it's not that it's never useful.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 04:42 PM
What is the point of "trails" building. It is available long before its benefits exist. If you dropped the maintenance cost on it then there may be some point in building it.

This is the tech topic not the building topic. However to answer your question.

1. Oh? Really? Well they don't go obsolete so you technically could still build them even after you discover roads.

2. I thought about not even including the -:gold:. I guess I could change it if you think it needs it.

Koshling
Apr 28, 2012, 05:12 PM
This is the tech topic not the building topic. However to answer your question.

1. Oh? Really? Well they don't go obsolete so you technically could still build them even after you discover roads.

2. I thought about not even including the -:gold:. I guess I could change it if you think it needs it.

Give it a SMALL amount of crime intead of the gold penalty would be my suggestion.

strategyonly
Apr 28, 2012, 05:17 PM
Give it a SMALL amount of crime intead of the gold penalty would be my suggestion.

I agree, you know i "hate" anything in the - column, especially :gold:

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 28, 2012, 08:12 PM
Give it a SMALL amount of crime intead of the gold penalty would be my suggestion.

I don't build anything with crime unless I have a building to counter crime of about the same value. I have noticed sometimes that a -5 crime and a +5 crime leave you with +3 crime in a city. I assumed it had something to do with terrain.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 09:39 PM
@Vokarya

So I have been looking at some techs from Realism Invictus and I wondered how you would convert them to C2C.

- Rudder
- Food Preservation
- Patent Rights
- Armor Plating
- Minority Rights
- Television

I have some what of an idea for the last one but I am unsure if Transistors would be needed too. And how do they differ from Semiconductors?

Vokarya
Apr 28, 2012, 09:57 PM
@Vokarya

So I have been looking at some techs from Realism Invictus and I wondered how you would convert them to C2C.

- Rudder
- Food Preservation
- Patent Rights
- Armor Plating
- Minority Rights
- Television

I have some what of an idea for the last one but I am unsure if Transistors would be needed too. And how do they differ from Semiconductors?

Let me check. I have a full (handwritten!) tech tree for RI in front of me right now.

Rudder is at the very start of RI's Medieval era. Prerequisites are Compass (mid-Classical Era) + Shipbuilding (early Classical Era), and Rudder leads to Optics. Our Compass is at the very END of the Medieval era. I think you could do this:

Rudder (Medieval Era)
Location: X35 Y19
Cost: 700 (equals Theology)
Req Techs: Ship Building AND Smithing
Leads to: Compass

Altered Techs

Compass
Req Techs: Clockworks AND Education AND Rudder

Do you want ideas for what to put here or move here? I have lists of what is allowed at every RI tech.

Vokarya
Apr 28, 2012, 10:30 PM
Food Preservation would be a really good tech to add. Food Preservation is at the beginning of RI's Industrial Era. It requires Medicine and leads to Biology. Our Biology is Renaissance Era, not Industrial. I wouldn't do a Microbiology requirement here, since Pasteur's experiments come a few decades later. Biology seems to be a better fit, but I would make it an OR requirement with Battlefield Medicine - either keep the people healthier (Biology) or keep an army healthy (Battlefield Medicine). It was keeping Napoleon's armies fed that led to Food Preservation, after all.

I would definitely move the Cannery from Nationalism to here (it matches up with RI's four Canned Food Factory buildings), and then have Food Preservation lead into Agricultural Engineering. Right now, Agricultural Engineering has two prerequisites from the Industrial Era and two from the Medieval Era (Agricultural Tools and Crop Rotation). I'm not a big fan of having prerequisites go that far back, although it is the only place where the two medieval techs currently hook on.

Food Preservation
Location: X56 Y3
Cost: 4750 (equal to Medicine)
Req Techs: Steam Power AND (Battlefield Medicine OR Biology)
Leads to: Agricultural Engineering
Allows: Cannery

Agricultural Engineering
Req Techs: Agricultural Tools AND Crop Rotation AND Food Preservation AND Medicine

EDIT: If we go with the Supply Lines restrictions on unit movement, Food Preservation should have a MAJOR impact.

Vokarya
Apr 28, 2012, 11:00 PM
@Vokarya

So I have been looking at some techs from Realism Invictus and I wondered how you would convert them to C2C.

- Rudder
- Food Preservation
- Patent Rights
- Armor Plating
- Minority Rights
- Television

I have some what of an idea for the last one but I am unsure if Transistors would be needed too. And how do they differ from Semiconductors?

On the Television subject, RI's Transistors is a requirement for Computers. Our Semiconductors requires Computers, so they're on different sides. It looks to me that what RI does is to split Electronics into Electronics and Transistors, and Transistors leads into Computers and Molecular Biology (which we don't have yet, but MrAzure suggested it and I think it's a good one) . I would make Television like this:

Television (Industrial OR Modern Era)
Cost: 6000 (more than Rocketry, less than Mass Media)
Required Techs: Electronics AND Motion Pictures
Leads to: Mass Media

Mass Media
Required Techs: Pop Art AND Television

You could make Television either a late-Industrial tech or an early-Modern. If you make it Modern, put Television at X69 Y13 (where Mass Media is now) and move Mass Media to X70 Y13. If you make Television Industrial, put Television at X68 Y13.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 11:14 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Infact I was thinking of moving Mass Media over too.

In IR Transistor leads to Computers, Guided Missiles, Molecular Biology and Television.

I think our Guided Weapons is analogous to their Guided Missiles. However out Guided Weapons requires Semiconductors (among other techs). So I think it may be best to leave it as it is.

How should Molecular Biology be? There are a lot of related techs around that part of the tree such as Biological Warfare, Modern Healthcare, Genetics and Ecology. These should be linked in some way to Molecular Biology. We also have Organic Chemistry a bit earlier than that too.

So something like ...

Transistors
Required Techs: Electronics AND Assembly Line
Location: X68 Y13
Cost: Same as Electronics

Television
Required Techs: Transistors AND Motion Pictures
Location: X69 Y13
Cost: Same as Mass Media

Mass Media
Required Techs: Television AND Pop Art
Location: X70 Y13

This sound good?

EDIT: Oh yeah and what about computers? Change their Electronics requirement to Transistors? So like ...

Computers
Required Techs: Modern Physics AND Transistors

Vokarya
Apr 28, 2012, 11:23 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Infact I was thinking of moving Mass Media over too.

In IR Transistor leads to Computers, Guided Missiles, Molecular Biology and Television.

I think our Guided Weapons is analogous to their Guided Missiles. However out Guided Weapons requires Semiconductors (among other techs). So I think it may be best to leave it as it is.

How should Molecular Biology be? There are a lot of related techs around that part of the tree such as Biological Warfare, Modern Healthcare, Genetics and Ecology. These should be linked in some way to Molecular Biology. We also have Organic Chemistry a bit earlier than that too.

So something like ...

Transistors
Required Techs: Electronics AND Assembly Line
Location: X68 Y13
Cost: Same as Electronics

Television
Required Techs: Transistors AND Motion Pictures
Location: X68 Y13
Cost: Same as Mass Media

Mass Media
Required Techs: Television AND Pop Art
Location: X69 Y13

This sound good?

EDIT: Oh yeah and what about computers? Change their Electronics requirement to Transistors? So like ...

Computers
Required Techs: Modern Physics AND Transistors

That works for me. I was thinking the exact same thing on Computers before your edit.

I would drop the Assembly Line requirement from Transistors, since it's redundant. The line here is Assembly Line - Labor Union - Industrialism - Plastics - Electronics. Advanced Metallurgy is about the only thing I can find that ISN'T redundant. So do Advanced Metallurgy + Electronics for Transistors.

Vokarya
Apr 28, 2012, 11:25 PM
I was thinking about the name Advanced Metallurgy, and I'm not sure if that is a really good name because it's vague. I was thinking one of two possible replacement names for it:

Industrial Metallurgy OR
Materials Science


Does anyone agree that one of these names would be better?

Azurian
Apr 28, 2012, 11:32 PM
I was thinking about the name Advanced Metallurgy, and I'm not sure if that is a really good name because it's vague. I was thinking one of two possible replacement names for it:

Industrial Metallurgy OR
Materials Science


Does anyone agree that one of these names would be better?

My vote is for Materials Science

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 11:44 PM
@Vokarya

Ok I sent the next set to SO (including the Advanced Metallurgy + Electronics for Transistors). So lets work out the Specifics for Molecular Biology. Should Transistors be included? And how should Biological Warfare, Modern Healthcare, Genetics, Ecology and Organic Chemistry fit in, if at all?

EDIT: I think Advanced Metallurgy is fine. If it is changed then "Industrial Metallurgy" since it deals with Titanium.

Hydromancerx
Apr 28, 2012, 11:58 PM
@Vokarya & MrAzure

Here are some ideas ...

--New--

Molecular Biology
Preq Techs: Organic Chemistry AND Modern Physics AND Transistors
Location: X69 Y15
Cost: Same as Biological Warfare

--Changed--

Biological Warfare
Preq Techs: Guerrilla Warfare AND Molecular Biology

Modern Healthcare
Preq Techs: Refrigeration AND Lasers AND Molecular Biology

Note that Astrobiology already requires Biological Warfare so it would be redundant for it to require Molecular Biology.

What do you guys think?

Azurian
Apr 29, 2012, 12:09 AM
@Vokarya & MrAzure

Here are some ideas ...

--New--

Molecular Biology
Preq Techs: Organic Chemistry AND Modern Physics AND Transistors
Location: X69 Y15
Cost: Same as Biological Warfare

What do you guys think?

Yes! i suggested Molecular biology a while back..it should upgrade the buildings of Organic Chemistry if they are upgradable..

Hydromancerx
Apr 29, 2012, 12:14 AM
Yes! i suggested Molecular biology a while back..if possible maybe one of the buildings can be Electron Microscope?

I know i used yours as a base.

As for the Electron Microscope, I am unsure if that should be given a whole building. Instead the Microbiology Lab should get some extra :science: from Molecular Biology tech.

Azurian
Apr 29, 2012, 01:02 AM
I know i used yours as a base.

As for the Electron Microscope, I am unsure if that should be given a whole building. Instead the Microbiology Lab should get some extra :science: from Molecular Biology tech.

Yeah i agree Electron microscope would not be a good option.


Possible Buildings for Molecular Biology
Molecular biology Lab
Birth Control Clinic
Molecular Medicine Campus
Forensics Department (requires Jail maybe?? something that has to do with forensics)
Rockefeller Institute or Rockefeller Foundation (Wonder)
folding@home (wonder..will need computers thou..)


While molecular biology was established in the 1930s, the term was coined by Warren Weaver in 1938. Warren was the director of Natural Sciences for the Rockefeller Foundation at the time and believed that biology was about to undergo a period of significant change given recent advances in fields such as X-ray crystallography. He therefore channeled significant amounts of (Rockefeller Institute) money into biological fields.

Azurian
Apr 29, 2012, 02:12 AM
There are Other actual branches of science we dont currently have are..they are very prominent and large fields of study, and each one covers many more specialized branches.

if we add all these we cover like 98% of all branches of science we currently know, and the only sciences we would need would be the future ones..

Life Science
-Zoology (its specialized animal kingdom of biology.should be x55 prereq for antibiotics and a prereq for Paleontology (move Paleontology to x56) )
-Botany (focuses on the plant kingdom of biology..x54 be a prereq for medicine)
-Neurology (brain) ( a prereq. for brain machiene interface maybe x74)
-Physiology (should be before anatomy maybe x36 or x37 required for anatomy)
-Bacteriology (we can name antibiotics to this) We already have microbiology


Social Science
- sociology (will require Psychology as a prereq. should be a prereq for criminology..Psychology is mind, sociology is society move pyscology to x56, and socio to x57)
-business administration, (yes its a real branch of social science and it should be in C2C. its the social science of business and ~ 21% of college students choose this as their major, thinking x58 requires sociology)

Logic Science
-Nuclear Physics (we can rename fission to this)
-Astrophysics (we can rename superstring theory to this or call this Cosmology)
-Particle Physics (will be one of the prereq. for nanotechnology x76)
-computer science (should be a prereq. for wearable computers and AI maybe x77 or x78)
-statistics (should be located near scientific method)
-Chemical Engineering (maybe we will be fine with just Advanced Metallurgy) we already have Advanced Metallurgy
-Machine Learning (huge branch of Artificial Intelligence we need this but we can just keep Nueral Networks and forget this, maybe x77 or x78)

Philosophical Sciences
We already have aesthetics, this are the 4 other main branches of philosophy

epistemology its too theoretical we already have Knowledge management
-ethics (maybe after Code of laws..x31 y 1)
-metaphysics (should be x23 be required for polytheism)
-Political science OR Political Philosophy (x26 and be required for Monarchy) Already in game duh!

Vokarya
Apr 29, 2012, 09:37 AM
I suggested Particle Physics be a rename of Modern Physics. I think that's what most of modern physics concentrates on.

Koshling
Apr 29, 2012, 09:41 AM
I suggested Particle Physics be a rename of Modern Physics. I think that's what most of modern physics concentrates on.

Do we have cosmology? (it's a slight aside, but also a fairly important modern focus that should be a pre-req for things like 'theroy of everything', etc.)

Vokarya
Apr 29, 2012, 09:49 AM
Do we have cosmology? (it's a slight aside, but also a fairly important modern focus that should be a pre-req for things like 'theroy of everything', etc.)

No, we don't have a Cosmology tech. Where would you want it to be? A quick look at Wikipedia says it should probably come right after Theory of Relativity. That would be one approach.

Koshling
Apr 29, 2012, 09:51 AM
No, we don't have a Cosmology tech. Where would you want it to be? A quick look at Wikipedia says it should probably come right after Theory of Relativity. That would be one approach.

Between relativity and before (pre-req) to string theory or more modern gravity theories I think.

Vokarya
Apr 29, 2012, 09:54 AM
@Vokarya & MrAzure

Here are some ideas ...

--New--

Molecular Biology
Preq Techs: Organic Chemistry AND Modern Physics AND Transistors
Location: X69 Y15
Cost: Same as Biological Warfare

--Changed--

Biological Warfare
Preq Techs: Guerrilla Warfare AND Molecular Biology

Modern Healthcare
Preq Techs: Refrigeration AND Lasers AND Molecular Biology

Note that Astrobiology already requires Biological Warfare so it would be redundant for it to require Molecular Biology.

What do you guys think?

I noticed the exact same things about Molecular Biology. Your version is good.

Vokarya
Apr 29, 2012, 10:07 AM
Between relativity and before (pre-req) to string theory or more modern gravity theories I think.

How does this sound?

Cosmology
Location: X58 Y13
Req Techs: Theory of Relativity
Cost: 4500
Leads to: Modern Physics, Radio Astronomy
Bonuses: +2 Science from Observatory

Altered Techs

Modern Physics
Req Techs: Compulsory Education AND Cosmology AND Fission AND Zeppelins

Radio Astronomy
Req Techs: Cosmology AND Radio

I think that perfectly covers that redundant Optics prerequisite on Radio Astronomy.

Koshling
Apr 29, 2012, 10:13 AM
How does this sound?

Cosmology
Location: X58 Y13
Req Techs: Theory of Relativity
Cost: 4500
Leads to: Modern Physics, Radio Astronomy
Bonuses: +2 Science from Observatory

Altered Techs

Modern Physics
Req Techs: Compulsory Education AND Cosmology AND Fission AND Zeppelins

Radio Astronomy
Req Techs: Cosmology AND Radio

I think that perfectly covers that redundant Optics prerequisite on Radio Astronomy.

Looks good to me

CiverDan
Apr 29, 2012, 10:24 AM
This isn't a specific tech question per se, but was noticing that the end game techs show as costing 1 beaker when playing the slower paced games on very large maps. Is there a binary number being exceeded (looks like its 2^25) causing this? Also will reaching those techs cause a crash in this case?

Azurian
Apr 29, 2012, 01:19 PM
New

Botany
(x53, Y11)
Cost: Same As Meteorology
Prerequisites: Biology
Required For: Zoology


pharmacy
Safari Expeditions
Farmers Almanac
Something with Seeds?



maybe something to do with the environment before the ecology tech.
improvement to plant resources..??
improvement to heath like herbalism for some plants?

By the 18th century an increasing number of new plants had arrived in Europe from newly discovered countries and the European colonies worldwide and a larger amount of plants became available for study. Botanical guides from this time were sparsely illustrated.[15] In 1754 Carl von Linné (Carl Linnaeus) divided the plant Kingdom into 25 classes with a taxonomy with a standardized binomial naming system for animal and plant species.



Zoology
(x55,y15)
Cost: Same As Steel
Prerequisties: Botany AND Anthropology
Required for: Paleontology And Marine Biology

We can move International Dog Show and the other dog building from biology here.

Over the 18th and 19th centuries, zoology became an increasingly professional scientific discipline. Explorer-naturalists such as Alexander von Humboldt investigated the interaction between organisms and their environment, and the ways this relationship depends on geography, laying the foundations for biogeography, ecology and ethology. Naturalists began to reject essentialism and consider the importance of extinction and the mutability of species. Cell theory provided a new perspective on the fundamental basis of life.[6]

Altered Techs


Paleontology
Cost: Same As Ballon Warfare
(x56, y15)
requires: Zoology AND AND Archaeology
Required For: [Same]

Makes more rational sense to have Archaeology since you are digging up bones similar to hoe Archaeology try to find lost cities.

Marine Biology
Cost: Same As Ballon Warfare
(x56, y 19)
Prerequisites: Zoology AND Geology
Required For: [Same]

makes more sense to study land creatures first then sea creatures.

Hydromancerx
Apr 29, 2012, 02:19 PM
How does this sound?

Cosmology
Location: X58 Y13
Req Techs: Theory of Relativity
Cost: 4500
Leads to: Modern Physics, Radio Astronomy
Bonuses: +2 Science from Observatory

Altered Techs

Modern Physics
Req Techs: Compulsory Education AND Cosmology AND Fission AND Zeppelins

Radio Astronomy
Req Techs: Cosmology AND Radio

I think that perfectly covers that redundant Optics prerequisite on Radio Astronomy.

Looks good. I will send it to SO.

Azurian
Apr 30, 2012, 02:47 PM
Tri-Gate Transistor
(Invented by Intel in 2011)
(x78, y13)
Requires: Nanotechnology AND Communication Networks
Perequiste For:Wearable Computers AND Brain Machine Interface AND Micromechanics


YIkMaQJSyP8



Inspiration
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_future_in_forecasts#Predicted_futu re_events_.28structured_by_topic.29)

2019 – $1,000 computer will match the processing power of the human brain – Ray Kurzweil[11]
2020 – Artificial Intelligence reaches human levels – Arthur C. Clarke 2001 prediction[12]
2045 – The Singularity (creation of the first ultraintelligent machine) occurs – Ray Kurzweil[13]
2050 – Computer costing a few hundred pounds will have the capacity of the human mind – Hans Moravec[14]

Video game graphics
2019-2024 - Photo-realism in video games - Epic Games' Founder, Technical Director, and CEO Tim Sweeney[22]

Virtual reality
2025 – Full immersion virtual reality using direct input to the brain becomes available – Arthur C. Clarke[12]
2030 – Virtual reality allows any type of interaction with anyone, regardless of physical proximity – Ray Kurzweil[11]

Self-driving cars
2018 - Self-driving cars are commercially available - General Motors[45]
2030 – All cars travelling on major roads under control of satellite and roadside control systems – Ray Hammond[28]

Human landing on Mars
2020 – MIT's Aeronautics and Astronautics department, 2005[47][48]
2021 – Arthur C. Clarke[12]
2025 – A permanent Mars colony, 4Frontiers, 2005[49]
2030 – TechCast[3]
2055 – $1,000 computer will match the processing power of all human brains on Earth – Ray Kurzweil[11]

Koshling
Apr 30, 2012, 03:13 PM
A lot of recent suggestions have been good, BUT we need to be careful not to overfill the late modern era so that it winds up way more tech-dense than any other period...

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 30, 2012, 07:34 PM
A bit of a radical suggestion. I have always been bugged by the fact that I have to study Camel Domestication even if I don't have any camels available to domesticate. So I suggest:-

Remove all AND and other must have links from Camel Domestication, Elephant Domestication, and Horse Domestication. E.G. Salt Production should not have Camel Domestication as a prerequisite

Then the following techs should require buildings before you can study them:-

Horse Domestication should require the buildings Horse Herd or Horse Hunter's Camp.
Camel Domestication should require the buildings Camel Herd or Camel Hunter's Camp.
Elephant Domestication should require the buildings Elephant Herd or Elephant Hunter's Camp.


Then both the techs Animal Riding and Megafauna Domestication should require one of the above techs not all.

This can be expanded on by allowing other similar animals and their equivalent buildings being prerequisites OR adding in a few extra domestication techs.

So

Donkey and Zebra herd or hunters camp for Horse Domestication
Llama for camel
Mammoth for elephant


OR
Deer Domestication requires deer herd or deer hunter's camp
Zebra Domestication requires zebra herd or zebra hunter's camp


There will need to be some change to the alt-timeline buildings to match.

I think this will add better flow to the tree, i.e. no need to study camel domestication if you don't know what a camel is.

Azurian
May 01, 2012, 12:14 AM
Transhuman Era

X78 group
Cloud Computing
Digital Currency
Contemporary Cars


x79
Augmented Reality
Tri-Gate Transistor


x80
Teraherz Microprocessor
Photo Realistic Animation
Ultrarechargeable Batteries


x81


x82
Magnetoresistive RAM
Contact Lens Displays (computer in your retina)
Digital Screen Surfaces (digital walllpaper)



x83
Cyberspace Implants (can communicate with others in cyberspace by thinking)
Holographic Electronics



x84
Petabyte Broadband

x85
Full Immersion Virtual Reality


x86
Hyper-fast crime scene analysis (Minority Report)
New Species Design (like the game Spore)


x87


x88

x89
Zettahertz Microprocessor
Robotic Rights



x90

x91
Exabyte Broadband
Picoengineering

Hydromancerx
May 01, 2012, 12:34 AM
@Dancing Hoskuld

The reason I made Megafauna Domestication require all the other domestication is so it would be harder to get sine it is an alt timeline tech.

Azurian
May 01, 2012, 12:35 AM
Galactic Era

x92
Quantum Batteries

x93

x94

x95

x96

x97
Star Federation

x98
Miniaturization

x99
Superluminal Theory

x100
FTL Broadband (Faster Than Light )

x101
Comet Mining

x102

x103
Hypersense

x104

x105
Galactic Warfare

x106
SpaceTime Broadbrand

x107
Galactic Stock Exchange

x108
Invention Matrix

x109
Discovery Sphere

x110
Supernova Harvesting

Hydromancerx
May 01, 2012, 12:43 AM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Infact I was thinking of moving Mass Media over too.

In IR Transistor leads to Computers, Guided Missiles, Molecular Biology and Television.

I think our Guided Weapons is analogous to their Guided Missiles. However out Guided Weapons requires Semiconductors (among other techs). So I think it may be best to leave it as it is.

How should Molecular Biology be? There are a lot of related techs around that part of the tree such as Biological Warfare, Modern Healthcare, Genetics and Ecology. These should be linked in some way to Molecular Biology. We also have Organic Chemistry a bit earlier than that too.

So something like ...

Transistors
Required Techs: Electronics AND Assembly Line
Location: X68 Y13
Cost: Same as Electronics

Television
Required Techs: Transistors AND Motion Pictures
Location: X69 Y13
Cost: Same as Mass Media

Mass Media
Required Techs: Television AND Pop Art
Location: X70 Y13

This sound good?

EDIT: Oh yeah and what about computers? Change their Electronics requirement to Transistors? So like ...

Computers
Required Techs: Modern Physics AND Transistors

So I was talking with my dad who knows a great deal about electronics and pointed out that transistors ARE semiconductors. In addition computers and televisions could exit without transistors. They can be run on vacuum tubes. So I am going to remove Transistors and move some stuff around so it make more sense.

Faustmouse
May 01, 2012, 03:37 AM
Then the following techs should require buildings before you can study them:-

Horse Domestication should require the buildings Horse Herd or Horse Hunter's Camp.
Camel Domestication should require the buildings Camel Herd or Camel Hunter's Camp.
Elephant Domestication should require the buildings Elephant Herd or Elephant Hunter's Camp.




is it possible to have buildings required for techs:wow:?
I once heard it isn't but who knows what you guys all changed :D
If its possible, i love it! However, you need a "placeholder" Tech that can be researched if you researched all other techs but dont have the buildings for the remaining techs..

Koshling
May 01, 2012, 07:31 AM
is it possible to have buildings required for techs:wow:?
I once heard it isn't but who knows what you guys all changed :D
If its possible, i love it! However, you need a "placeholder" Tech that can be researched if you researched all other techs but dont have the buildings for the remaining techs..

It's not. A tech is a team-wide thing. Where would the building have to be?

AIAndy
May 01, 2012, 07:44 AM
It's not. A tech is a team-wide thing. Where would the building have to be?
There are quite some buildings that have a team wide effect (wonders usually).
Anyway, I added something that can be used for that some time ago:
A building can give you a specific tech when you finish constructing it and that tech can be used as prerequisite for other techs (and you can't research it).

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 07:21 PM
A lot of recent suggestions have been good, BUT we need to be careful not to overfill the late modern era so that it winds up way more tech-dense than any other period...

The Modern era only has 64 techs at the moment. Prehistoric has 88 with all the new stuff that has been added there. Medieval is the narrowest at 36.

I was also thinking Tri-Gate Transistor might be a good candidate for pushing to the Transhuman Era. Transhuman is only 49 techs right now.

AIAndy
May 01, 2012, 07:45 PM
The Modern era only has 64 techs at the moment. Prehistoric has 88 with all the new stuff that has been added there. Medieval is the narrowest at 36.

I was also thinking Tri-Gate Transistor might be a good candidate for pushing to the Transhuman Era. Transhuman is only 49 techs right now.
I don't think any such very specific technology that is not a breakthrough in what can be achieved should be a C2C tech.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 01, 2012, 08:05 PM
It's not. A tech is a team-wide thing. Where would the building have to be?

However it is available in vanilla BtS and the doco suggests you only need one somewhere in any city of the team.

PS the Dr put me on some new medication for my asthma but no one pointed out that in vary rare cases it wont let you sleep. I am not driving for 12hrs without a good 8hrs beforehand no matter what the emergency. I got a whole 2 hrs last night :(

Troninator
May 01, 2012, 08:39 PM
I don't understand the purpose of the Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping techs. Are they part of a specific project?

Dancing Hoskuld
May 01, 2012, 08:51 PM
I don't understand the purpose of the Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping techs. Are they part of a specific project?

The "Nomadic Start" option will be using these. It has not even been discussed how nomads will work so a great deal of the tech tree devoted to it was, in hindsight, a knee jerk reaction. Those techs will likely increase the nomadic return from plots.

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 09:46 PM
@Vokarya

So I have been looking at some techs from Realism Invictus and I wondered how you would convert them to C2C.

- Rudder
- Food Preservation
- Patent Rights
- Armor Plating
- Minority Rights
- Television

I have some what of an idea for the last one but I am unsure if Transistors would be needed too. And how do they differ from Semiconductors?

I was thinking about these a little more, and I don't think we need the Armor Plating tech. Armor Plating is a pure naval technology that's a step up from Steam Engine, and I think that our Screw Propeller fills that niche. As long as our armored ships require a Steel resource, we are good there. RI's Industrial ships are:

Steam Power: Ironclad Frigate, Paddlesteamer
Armor Plating: Armored Cruiser, Gunboat, Ironclad
Steel Hull: Escort, Freighter, Light Cruiser, Pre-Dreadnought
Torpedoes: Torpedo Boat
Naval Ballistics: Dreadnought
Targeting System: Battlecruiser, Battleship, Submarine
Radar: Attack Submarine, Corvette, Destroyer, Nuclear Submarine
Power Projection: Carrier, Transport

I don't see that adding Armor Plating (or Steel Hull for that matter) would really add anything. We have almost all these units already, although we are missing the Armored Cruiser and Light Cruiser.

Patent Rights and Minority Rights are good technologies, but I'm not sure how to get them hooked into the rest of the Tech Tree. Patent Rights leads to Bessemer Converter and Nitroglycerine in RI. I think Bessemer Converter is just an attempt to split the Steel technology into a LOT of little techs, and Nitroglycerine leads to Machine Guns (our Semi-Automatic Weapons) and Modern Chemistry (our Organic Chemistry). I think that's covered, so it needs to lead into something else. I also don't see a lot of pure economic/governmental technologies in the Industrial Era to lead into. Constitution, Corporation, and Stock Brokering are all Renaissance Era. Except for maybe Industrialism, I don't really see an economic tech until Derivatives in the Modern Era. I may have to think about this in much more detail.

Minority Rights should offer some civic choices, but RI doesn't have it lead into any other tech. I was thinking about a Cultural Diversity technology for the Modern Era (possibilities include a Woodstock Wonder).

Dancing Hoskuld
May 01, 2012, 10:00 PM
Minority Rights should offer some civic choices, but RI doesn't have it lead into any other tech. I was thinking about a Cultural Diversity technology for the Modern Era (possibilities include a Woodstock Wonder).

Would certainly fit with the diplomacy stuff I am working on. It would change what asimulation of a indiginous peoples village into your civ means.

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 10:08 PM
Would certainly fit with the diplomacy stuff I am working on. It would change what asimulation of a indiginous peoples village into your civ means.

Minority Rights is Industrial Era, though. Will Envoys work with barbarian cities? I find them springing up as I conquer the world and leave razed cities behind--my current game is Transhuman Era. I haven't gotten to the point where I want to resettle the land yet; it's a weird situation because there is a hole in the available units. Once Mechanized Infantry becomes available, there isn't a unit that:

is eligible for the City Garrison promotion line
upgrades to Special Infantry/Tesla Infantry


I usually mix them for my late-game City Garrisons, and in the late Modern/early Transhuman era, that means there is not a proper city defender that can upgrade into it. The other ground units (Modern Marine, Modern Paratrooper, etc.) all upgrade to Dropship.

Hydromancerx
May 02, 2012, 01:22 AM
@Vokarya

Here are some vague ideas.

Patent Rights
Required Techs: Corporations ?
Location: X50 Y15
Cost: Same as Corporations

Emancipation
Required Techs: Railroad ?
Location: X Y
Cost: Same as ?

Women's Suffrage
Required Techs: Industrialism ?
Location: X Y
Cost: Same as ?

Minority Rights
Required Techs: Labor Union AND Mass Media ?
Location: X Y
Cost: Same as ?

Obviously Emancipation outs it at the Civil War period and Women's Rights not too long after. Minority Right would be a more modern era tech for the Civil Rights movement.

What do you think?

Il Principe
May 02, 2012, 02:03 AM
Minority rights after Mass Media seems about right. maybe i could lead to
Multhiethnic Society, that gives boni to open borders civic.

BlueGenie
May 02, 2012, 08:49 AM
The Modern era only has 64 techs at the moment. Prehistoric has 88 with all the new stuff that has been added there. Medieval is the narrowest at 36.

I was also thinking Tri-Gate Transistor might be a good candidate for pushing to the Transhuman Era. Transhuman is only 49 techs right now.

I don't think any such very specific technology that is not a breakthrough in what can be achieved should be a C2C tech.

The concept of the Tri-Gate is sound but I do agree that a specific invention should not be in C2C. Multiple-Layer Transistors/Miniature Transistors is another matter though as it's not a specific patent and sounds like a good evolving of transistors until Quantum Computers/Quantum Transistors.

Cheers

Il Principe
May 02, 2012, 10:49 AM
How about introducing optical computers somewhere along the way? Also a promising field and a bit more fundamental then a new generation of still semiconductor based tech.

I think we could furthermore use a neurobiology tech somewhere before brain machine interface.
It could give increased health from hospitals to give it something on its own, and maybe an increased anti crime bonus for the asylum.
My reason for this is: The pure technical aspect of a brain machine interface is no problem for our current level of semiconductor electronics. On a lab scale integration of neural cells into microcircuits has already been done. But the problem is knowing where to make the conenction[s] in a living brain.

Azurian
May 02, 2012, 03:35 PM
Like i mentioned before we need to expand Techs to the Transhuman Era, and introduce some "Art" Techs since Art doesnt all of a sudden stop in the Modern Era. There is a coule of gaps in the Transhuman Era techwise..for example we dont have a full immersive vitural reality tech or Augmented Reality .

Also I would like to see more late Medival/ Rennassiance techs to slow down the pace from medieval to industrial.

I am thinking of
Digital Art (Late Modern) similar to virtualparadox.com and large digital Wallpapers and 3d sculptures.


Transmedia (Early transhuman) (Actually a real thing, news from multiple formats and sources.

Utopian Art (Late Transhuman) (Humans beleive because of medical advancements and robotics we are going to enter a utopia world and artists are making Utopian themed art.



x74
Neurobiology
Digital Art

X78 group
Cloud Computing
Digital Currency
Contemporary Cars


x79
Augmented Reality
Ultraminiturized Transitors


x80
Photo Realistic Animation
Super Rechargeable Batteries (wireless electricity can later give bonuses to this buildings)
Transmedia Art
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmedia_storytelling

x82
Teraherz Microprocessor
Magnetoresistive RAM
Contact Lens Displays (computer in your retina)


x83

Holographic Electronics



x84
Petabyte Broadband

x85
Full Immersion Virtual Reality

x86
Utopian Art
Instant Crime Analysis (Minority Report)
New Species Design (like the game Spore)

x89
Zettahertz Microprocessor
Robotic Rights


x91
Exabyte Broadband

Azurian
May 02, 2012, 07:47 PM
Lights Mod

Each Tech will give + 25 % worker speed

1. Torch Lighting (Prehistoric)
Building:

2. Oil Lamps
Building:

3. Gas Lighting
Building:

4. Incandescent Lighting (Industrial)
Building:

5. Fluorescent Lighting (Late Industrial)
Building:

6. LED Lighting (Late Modern)
Building:

7. Bioluminescence Lighting (Middle Trans-human)"
Building:
Easier to build cities underwater and we can "make beleive" that this type of lighting improves energy levels pyscologically

8. Photon Lighting (Middle Galactic Era)

Easier to see ships in space visually




Science (Wonders)
Linnaean Classification System (Renaissance)
Periodic Table of Elements

Azurian
May 02, 2012, 10:20 PM
1. Torch Lighting
(x14,Y13 - Prehistoric)
Prerequisites: Fire Making AND Warfare AND Portable Shelter
Required for: Boat Building AND Chiefdom



Buildings Enabled:

1. +25% Worker Speed

2. Night Pathfinder
+2 Experience Points to Wanderers
+1 Experience Points to Trappers
+1 Experience Points to Hunters
Obsolete with Road Building
With the invention of the Torch, scouts and hunters were able to travel in the nighttime without the need of relying only on daylight.

3. Relay Races
+ 1:culture:
Obsolete with Athletics

Koshling
May 03, 2012, 08:23 AM
More galactic era stuff (or maybe transhuman). Don't have a clue where they would go in the tech tree or their effects right now - just throwing ideas out. Each of these requires the previous:

Mind backup (obviously requires brain machine interfaces)

Mind virtualization (instantiate yourself in different places, or multiply)

Mind image reintegration (pull back instantiated partials into the aggregate whole taking their memories etc.)

Group mind (extend aggregation to the virtual images of a large number of originally separate individuals)

Overmind (group all minds of an entire civilization)

ls612
May 03, 2012, 04:46 PM
@Vokarya: Do you by chance have a breakdown of number of techs by era? Such a thing would be useful for some changes I'm planning after V23 is released, related to trying to make the Eras take more or less the same number of turns.

Vokarya
May 03, 2012, 06:19 PM
@Vokarya: Do you by chance have a breakdown of number of techs by era? Such a thing would be useful for some changes I'm planning after V23 is released, related to trying to make the Eras take more or less the same number of turns.

Of course I have a breakdown. I need to spend some time recalibrating the "levels" within the eras, to see how deep a level goes, but I can't do that right now.


Prehistoric: 88 techs
Ancient: 41 techs
Classical: 45 techs
Medieval: 36 techs
Renaissance: 56 techs
Industrial: 75 techs
Modern: 64 techs
Transhuman: 49 techs
Galactic: 74 techs (without Analyze Strings)

This is not counting Cold Fusion, Global Governance, RELIGION, or Special Promotion. This list is complete after removing Transistors.

ls612
May 03, 2012, 06:28 PM
Of course I have a breakdown. I need to spend some time recalibrating the "levels" within the eras, to see how deep a level goes, but I can't do that right now.


Prehistoric: 88 techs
Ancient: 41 techs
Classical: 45 techs
Medieval: 36 techs
Renaissance: 56 techs
Industrial: 75 techs
Modern: 64 techs
Transhuman: 49 techs
Galactic: 74 techs (without Analyze Strings)

This is not counting Cold Fusion, Global Governance, RELIGION, or Special Promotion. This list is complete after removing Transistors.

Thanks a lot for that.

Azurian
May 04, 2012, 12:32 PM
Medieval Techs Inspiration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Empires_II:_The_Conquerors#Technologies

Mirrors (req.: Glass blowing req for for Optics ; glassmith +1 )

Artesian well (1126)
A thin rod with a hard iron cutting edge is placed in the bore hole and repeatedly struck with a hammer, underground water pressure forces the water up the hole without pumping. Artesian wells are named after the town of Artois in France, where the first one was drilled by Carthusian monks in 1126.

Wheelbarrow (1170s)

Proved useful in building construction, mining operations, and agriculture. Literary evidence for the use of wheelbarrows appeared between 1170 and 1250 in North-western Europe. First depiction in a drawing by Matthew Paris in the middle of the 13th century.

Blast furnace (1150–1350)

European cast iron first appears in Middle Europe (for instance Lapphyttan in Sweden, Dürstel in Switzerland and the Märkische Sauerland in Germany) around 1150,[11] in some places according to recent research even before 1100.[12] Technique considered to be an independent European development.[13]

Spectacles (1280s)

European innovation. Florence, Italy. Convex lenses, of help only to the far-sighted. Concave lenses were not developed prior to the 15th century.

Combined arms tactics (1333)

The battle of Halidon Hill 1333 was the first battle where intentional and disciplined combined arms infantry tactics were employed. The English men-at-arms dismounted aside the archers, combining thus the staying power of super-heavy infantry and striking power of their two-handed weapons with the missiles and mobility of the archers. Combining dismounted knights and men-at-arms with archers was the archetypal Western Medieval battle tactics until the battle of Flodden 1513 and final emergence of firearms.

Scholasticism is a method of critical thought which dominated teaching by the academics (scholastics, or schoolmen) of medieval universities in Europe from about 1100–1500, and a program of employing that method in articulating and defending orthodoxy in an increasingly pluralistic context. It originated as an outgrowth of, and a departure from, Christian monastic schools.[1]

loom s a device used to weave cloth. The basic purpose of any loom is to hold the warp threads under tension to facilitate the interweaving of the weft threads. The precise shape of the loom and its mechanics may vary, but the basic function is the same.

Horse Collar
Horses were also used more efficiently in the Middle Ages. The horse collar was invented in China long before it was known in Europe. However the horse collar was known in Europe by the 9th century. Previously horses were attached to vehicles by straps around their necks. The horse could not pull a heavy load because the strap would constrict its neck! The horse collar allowed horses to pull much heavier loads.

Mills
Watermills were also common in Europe. From the 11th century they were used not just to grind grain but for a variety of tasks.
Hygiene/ soap

Geocentrism
– It is also widely known that Medieval people incorrectly believed that the earth was located in the centre of the universe, and remained static, whilst the sun and the other planets revolved around it. This belief, known as Geocentrism was indeed the established view throughout the Middle Ages, and had been since ancient times.

thumb ring (Archery- was in age of empires 2) s a piece of equipment designed to protect the thumb during archery. This is a ring of leather, stone, horn, wood, ivory, metal, ceramics, plastic, or glass or which fits over the end of the thumb, coming to rest at the outer edge of the outer joint. A flat area extends from the ring to protect the pad of the thumb from the bowstring; this may be supplemented by a leather extension.

Shaft Mining
Heavy Plow

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/PtW_Middle_DyP.gif

Il Principe
May 04, 2012, 02:41 PM
This screen reminds me how much better one could read the older Civ techsreens. As a pureley cosmetic question: could the tech tree be enlarged vertically? Because right now it´s pretty crowded.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 04, 2012, 03:15 PM
This screen reminds me how much better one could read the older Civ techsreens. As a pureley cosmetic question: could the tech tree be enlarged vertically? Because right now it´s pretty crowded.

The problem with increasing the vertical height is that it would give it a vertical scroll bar for those using the default screen resolutions at least. Which is to be avoided - the scroll bar that is.

Koshling
May 04, 2012, 03:28 PM
The problem with increasing the vertical height is that it would give it a vertical scroll bar for those using the default screen resolutions at least. Which is to be avoided - the scroll bar that is.

In principal we could rewrite the positioning so it was dynamic - the values in the XML would be the default values but the Python could ask the DLL to rescale the tree for dimensions it provides at runtime (which in trun would depend on display resolution). Or possibly have the DLL produce coordinates without even ANY values in the XML (or ignoring the ones that are there for non-default resolutions). I don't think this would be rocket-science, but equally it's not a trivial do-in-a-day job.

ls612
May 04, 2012, 05:04 PM
So, to change the start date I'll need to adjust the SpawnInfos.xml to start things spawning at reasonable times. Is there anything else that references the start date or the dates in general that would need changing?

AIAndy
May 04, 2012, 05:37 PM
So, to change the start date I'll need to adjust the SpawnInfos.xml to start things spawning at reasonable times. Is there anything else that references the start date or the dates in general that would need changing?
I don't think so. The only other year reference is the doubling of culture (and some other things) after 1k years.

Azurian
May 04, 2012, 09:01 PM
Franchises
(x72, y9)
Req. Tourism And Applied Economics
Required For: Globalization

Buildings:
Restaurant chain
Supermarket chain
Car Dealership
McDonalds / McBurgers (Wonder)

ranchising is the practice of using another firm's successful business model. The word 'franchise' is of anglo-French derivation - from franc - meaning free, and is used both as a noun and as a (transitive) verb.[1] For the franchisor, the franchise is an alternative to building 'chain stores' to distribute goods and avoid the need for investments and liability for a chain. The franchisor's success depends on the success of the franchisees. The franchisee is said to have a greater incentive than a direct employee because he or she has a direct stake in the business.







More galactic era stuff (or maybe transhuman). Don't have a clue where they would go in the tech tree or their effects right now - just throwing ideas out. Each of these requires the previous:

Mind backup (obviously requires brain machine interfaces)

Mind virtualization (instantiate yourself in different places, or multiply)

Mind image reintegration (pull back instantiated partials into the aggregate whole taking their memories etc.)

Group mind (extend aggregation to the virtual images of a large number of originally separate individuals)

Overmind (group all minds of an entire civilization)

Group Mind --> Hypersense
Overmind ---> Omnipresence

Azurian
May 05, 2012, 01:27 AM
Guys take a look at this very large and colorful info-graph from http://envisioningtech.com/ i saw on Reddit.

Emerging Technologies for 2012 and Beyond
Understanding where technology is heading is more than guesswork. Looking at emerging trends and research, one can predict and draw conclusions about how the technological sphere is developing, and which technologies should become mainstream in the coming years.
Envisioning technology is meant to facilitate these observations by taking a step back and seeing the wider context. By speculating about what lies beyond the horizon we can make better decisions of what to create today.
http://i.imgur.com/tzDgK.png

Koshling
May 05, 2012, 11:23 AM
In my latest test game, I auto-piloted to tribalism, and then later realised that 'portable shelters' gives me access to nomads. According to the pedia, nomads can found cities, defend, and you can have up to three of them at once (and portable shelters is easier to reach in the tech tree than tribalism). Are tribes totally obsolete now? I can't see why nomads are not just hands-down better...

ls612
May 05, 2012, 01:06 PM
In my latest test game, I auto-piloted to tribalism, and then later realised that 'portable shelters' gives me access to nomads. According to the pedia, nomads can found cities, defend, and you can have up to three of them at once (and portable shelters is easier to reach in the tech tree than tribalism). Are tribes totally obsolete now? I can't see why nomads are not just hands-down better...

Well, the AIAndy's Nomad mod is supposed to be experimental, so if you have that enabled it could mess with the 'traditional' Prehistoric progression.

Koshling
May 05, 2012, 01:08 PM
Well, the AIAndy's Nomad mod is supposed to be experimental, so if you have that enabled it could mess with the 'traditional' Prehistoric progression.

I have not enabled it. Some of it must be present in the core which needs to be addressed before V23 is released.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 05, 2012, 01:23 PM
In my latest test game, I auto-piloted to tribalism, and then later realised that 'portable shelters' gives me access to nomads. According to the pedia, nomads can found cities, defend, and you can have up to three of them at once (and portable shelters is easier to reach in the tech tree than tribalism). Are tribes totally obsolete now? I can't see why nomads are not just hands-down better...

I have not enabled it. Some of it must be present in the core which needs to be addressed before V23 is released.

However only nomads can build nomad units and you need the nomad prototype option on. Then you would need the XML that tells the nomad units that they can build nomad to be written. ;) In other words, nomad units can not yet be built. No matter what it says in the pedia.

There has been no discussion on how nomads will work. Or how they will work with cities or tribes.

Koshling
May 05, 2012, 04:42 PM
However only nomads can build nomad units and you need the nomad prototype option on. Then you would need the XML that tells the nomad units that they can build nomad to be written. ;) In other words, nomad units can not yet be built. No matter what it says in the pedia.

There has been no discussion on how nomads will work. Or how they will work with cities or tribes.

So is portable shelters a meaningless tech with nomads turned off? If so is it possible for the tech to be modular also?

Dancing Hoskuld
May 05, 2012, 04:56 PM
So is portable shelters a meaningless tech with nomads turned off? If so is it possible for the tech to be modular also?

Yes and yes. There are a whole bunch of techs that are currently related to the nomadic start option. Just as there are a whole bunch of techs associated with the Advanced Economy option. I never see the latter because I never play with Advanced Economy on. It does make for interesting bug tracking - I had a repeatable bug happening because of some thing in AE but Hydro did not because if you had AE on there was no problem.

Koshling
May 05, 2012, 05:53 PM
Yes and yes. There are a whole bunch of techs that are currently related to the nomadic start option. Just as there are a whole bunch of techs associated with the Advanced Economy option. I never see the latter because I never play with Advanced Economy on. It does make for interesting bug tracking - I had a repeatable bug happening because of some thing in AE but Hydro did not because if you had AE on there was no problem.

So is it a bug that I am seeing it (and can research it) in a game with nomadic start off?

Dancing Hoskuld
May 05, 2012, 06:53 PM
So is it a bug that I am seeing it (and can research it) in a game with nomadic start off?

I would say yes, Hydro would probably say no. A huge amount of work went into upgrading the tech tree but a lot of it was in my opinion knee jerk reaction to the nomad demo by AIAndy and the publishing of the proposed RoH tech tree.

Hydromancerx
May 05, 2012, 08:16 PM
So is portable shelters a meaningless tech with nomads turned off? If so is it possible for the tech to be modular also?

You can still build the Yurt and Teepee buildings which are not Nomadic stuff. So no Portable Shelters tech has a benefit even if Nomadic start is turned off.

The only techs which may not have a purpose with it off are Soft-Hammer Percussion, Piercing and Scraping. I have no idea what to put at that those techs but added them since that's what DH wanted. Personally I would have just put Hard-Hammer Percussion, Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing and Scraping all into one single tech (aka Stone Working).

Vokarya
May 05, 2012, 09:15 PM
I noticed when I posted my list of tech breakdowns by era that the Medieval era is the shortest on current technologies. I would like to propose two changes to help remedy this.

First, split Invention into two technologies. One is Alchemy, the other is Invention. For those of you who don't look at the XML, Invention is actually TECH_ALCHEMY. TECH_ALCHEMY would become Alchemy, and a new TECH_INVENTION would be created.

The new techs would be:

Alchemy
Location: X37 Y9 (moving Engineering back to X35 Y17)
Cost: 800
Req Techs: Drug Trade AND Glass Blowing AND Philosophy AND (Engineering OR Theology)
Leads to: Invention, Optics, Paper, Stained Glass
Allows: Alchemist's Lab, Ancient Hand Cannon, Yusuf ibn Tashfin, Reveals Rubber, Obsoletes Belladonna, Obsoletes Curare, Obsoletes Death Cap Mushroom, Obsoletes Poison Crafter

Invention
Location: X37 Y13
Cost: 1050
Req Techs: Alchemy AND Civil Service AND (Agricultural Tools OR Guilds)
Leads to: Armored Cavalry, Clockworks, Gunpowder, Mountaineering, Perspective, Printing Press
Allows: Artesian Well, Ice Cream Parlor, +1 gold from Furniture Workshop, Heavy Cavalry, Reveals Ice Cream, Leonardo's Workshop
(These are what would have to be changed to TECH_INVENTION. Everything else could stay at TECH_ALCHEMY)

I would also suggest moving Engineering back to X35 Y17. It's at the very beginning of the Medieval era, and so moving it back gives a little extra room. The X35 column has only Feudalism and Theology.

Changed Techs

Engineering
Location: X35 Y17

Optics
Required Techs: Alchemy

Paper
Required Techs: Guilds AND (Civil Service OR Theology OR Alchemy)

Stained Glass
Required Techs: Alchemy AND Architecture

Education
Required Techs: Paper AND Stained Glass
(Adding Alchemy to Stained Glass puts Philosophy in the chain)

Second, move Gunpowder back into the Medieval era. It can stay where it is or be moved back to X41 Y5. The invention of gunpowder itself is very late Medieval, and firearms (the Matchlock technology) is Renaissance.

What do you think?

Hydromancerx
May 05, 2012, 09:27 PM
@Vokarya

Its hard to pick if Hand Cannon should go under Invention or Alchemy. Same goes for ice cream.

Overall it looks good. I will see if we can get these changed after the freeze.

Vokarya
May 05, 2012, 09:53 PM
@Vokarya

Its hard to pick if Hand Cannon should go under Invention or Alchemy. Same goes for ice cream.

Overall it looks good. I will see if we can get these changed after the freeze.

I thought I would split it up a bit. That's why I put the Hand Cannon at Alchemy (keeping Heavy Cavalry at Invention) and the Ice Cream at Invention. I admit it can go either way.

Koshling
May 06, 2012, 08:50 AM
You can still build the Yurt and Teepee buildings which are not Nomadic stuff. So no Portable Shelters tech has a benefit even if Nomadic start is turned off.

The only techs which may not have a purpose with it off are Soft-Hammer Percussion, Piercing and Scraping. I have no idea what to put at that those techs but added them since that's what DH wanted. Personally I would have just put Hard-Hammer Percussion, Soft-Hammer Percussion, Chopping, Piercing and Scraping all into one single tech (aka Stone Working).

I'm not certain, but I strongly suspect it might throw the AI off, because it sees Nomads as enabled by this tech, and will value Nomads highly. It has no way to realise it won't actually be able to build them (at least unless I blanket change it to consider units that cannot be directly built useless in all circumstances, which would probably distort things elsewhere). How does the mechanic for nomads building more nomads work in the nomadic start? Is it necessary for it to have this tech dependence in the XML for that mechanic to work? Could it trigger off a promotion or something instead?

Dancing Hoskuld
May 06, 2012, 09:23 AM
I'm not certain, but I strongly suspect it might throw the AI off, because it sees Nomads as enabled by this tech, and will value Nomads highly. It has no way to realise it won't actually be able to build them (at least unless I blanket change it to consider units that cannot be directly built useless in all circumstances, which would probably distort things elsewhere). How does the mechanic for nomads building more nomads work in the nomadic start? Is it necessary for it to have this tech dependence in the XML for that mechanic to work? Could it trigger off a promotion or something instead?

With the current XML there are two nomad units, the band and the nomadic camp. Neither are buildable. The band has always been that way. The nomadic camp is new and currently assigned to that tech. There will be others available at later techs.

The mechanic for nomadic units building anything is that your unit wanders around collecting stuff. When you have enough stuff Outcome Actions become available for choice, ie a button becomes available and you can build that thing.

Currently in the demo you can build :-

a defender unit (stone thrower)
a recon unit (a wanderer)
a science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:
a bigger science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:


I was going to add a bunch of promotions available to be built by and for the unit at different techs. Some improve the attack or defense bonus of the unit others how well it gathers stuff. I have not had enough time to add such things.

I was also going to suggest some promotions that auto convert to buildings when you settle down.

EDIT The AI knows it can't build the units, in the same way it knows it can't build Great People or wild animals. They all have an icost = -1 at the moment.

Koshling
May 06, 2012, 10:30 AM
With the current XML there are two nomad units, the band and the nomadic camp. Neither are buildable. The band has always been that way. The nomadic camp is new and currently assigned to that tech. There will be others available at later techs.

The mechanic for nomadic units building anything is that your unit wanders around collecting stuff. When you have enough stuff Outcome Actions become available for choice, ie a button becomes available and you can build that thing.

Currently in the demo you can build :-

a defender unit (stone thrower)
a recon unit (a wanderer)
a science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:
a bigger science breakthrough = convert some stuff to :beakers:



Yes, but it (the AI) ASSUMES that enabling techs will make the units available by some as-yet-unrevealed mechanic, and therefore counts the unit value into the tech value, and potentially beelines it because of that. A way to avoid this would be to make the outcome's availability dependent on a promotion (rather than requiring a tech at all), make the promotion dependent on the tech, and give the unit that promotion (which cannot be earned any other way) automatically. The effect on avauilability is exactly as before, but the extra level of removal from the tech would be enough to stop the AI making any assumptions about it.

Alternatively I could stop the AI valuing (in tech values) any enabled units that cannot be directly built, but I'm worried this would distort something somewhere else. Apart from great people (none of which require any techs do they?) are there any other units which are not directly buildable? (if there aren't, and all GPs are tech-independent, then there is nothing to distort and I could safely make that change).

Edit - is there a reason why the unit itself is not part of what gets modularly loaded?

strategyonly
May 06, 2012, 01:28 PM
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??

ls612
May 06, 2012, 01:31 PM
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??

I agree, but I'm not too concerned, as this tech tree is really only half-implemented, as the Nomads will not be arriving at least until DH gets back. I think that when the Nomad mod gets fully integrated things will be much more interesting in the Prehistoric Era.

AIAndy
May 06, 2012, 01:35 PM
I agree, but I'm not too concerned, as this tech tree is really only half-implemented, as the Nomads will not be arriving at least until DH gets back. I think that when the Nomad mod gets fully integrated things will be much more interesting in the Prehistoric Era.
Nomad start is supposed to be an option so I think the tech tree should also work without it.

ls612
May 06, 2012, 01:37 PM
Nomad start is supposed to be an option so I think the tech tree should also work without it.

Bit late to do that before V23. :rolleyes:

strategyonly
May 06, 2012, 03:00 PM
Nomad start is supposed to be an option so I think the tech tree should also work without it.

I have the nomad option set to 1 so i have it on, (Yeah i keep forgetting that DH is going to add a few things to the darn tech tree for more items, i tell ya my mind sometimes is just like eating ice cream alot, Brain Freeze!!:blush:


<Module>
<Directory>NomadDemo</Directory>
<bLoad>1</bLoad>
</Module>


same as Koshlings


<Define>
<!-- Set to non-0 value to enable dynamic activation of unit graphics entities (reduced memory usage and growth) -->
<DefineName>ENABLE_DYNAMIC_UNIT_ENTITIES</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>-0</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

I hope i got both working, but it doesnt seem to do anything, except the units look like they are speed demons once there at a spot then all of a sudden they are at another spot, like the commercial, Zoom Zoom Zoom:crazyeye:

Hydromancerx
May 06, 2012, 03:13 PM
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(


I tried to fill the tree up with more stuff to do during the Prehistoric Era.

There are a few ways we could fix it...

1. Add more stuff to do (not sure what)

2. Make more of the early techs cheap.

Since nomad stuff is not going to be worked on until DH returns then we will just have to keep tweaking with those choices. I have thought about an updated tech cost chart. Not sure if you want to do it during the freeze or not.

strategyonly
May 06, 2012, 03:18 PM
I tried to fill the tree up with more stuff to do during the Prehistoric Era.

There are a few ways we could fix it...

1. Add more stuff to do (not sure what)

2. Make more of the early techs cheap.

Since nomad stuff is not going to be worked on until DH returns then we will just have to keep tweaking with those choices. I have thought about an updated tech cost chart. Not sure if you want to do it during the freeze or not.

Lets see what the regular modders say first, but by me, its ok.

Hydromancerx
May 06, 2012, 03:29 PM
Lets see what the regular modders say first, but by me, its ok.

Well right now its ...

X1 = 5
X2 = 5
X3 = 5
X4 = 5
X5 = 10
X6 = 15
X7 = 20
X8 = 25
X9 = 30
X10 = 35
X11 = 40
X12 = 45
X13 = 50
X14 = 55
X15 = 60
X16 = 65
X17 = 70
X18 = 75
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110[
/QUOTE]

Perhaps like this ...

[QUOTE]
X1 = 5
X2 = 6
X3 = 7
X4 = 8
X5 = 9
X6 = 10
X7 = 11
X8 = 12
X9 = 13
X10 = 14
X11 = 15
X12 = 20
X13 = 25
X14 = 30
X15 = 40
X16 = 50
X17 = 60
X18 = 70
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110
X26 = 115


However do you think its too steep of a chnage from X12 to X19? Note I did not chnage X19 to X26. The problem I think if we make them too cheap is early stuff will just go obsolete to fast that you do not have any time to build them.

I am not sure what to do. I guess we did not realize how perfect my old perfect my old prehistoric era setup was. It took us forever to get it working so well. Its only now that is out of balance we realize how balanced it was before.

strategyonly
May 06, 2012, 03:34 PM
Well right now its ...
[QUOTE]
X1 = 5
X2 = 5
X3 = 5
X4 = 5
X5 = 10
X6 = 15
X7 = 20
X8 = 25
X9 = 30
X10 = 35
X11 = 40
X12 = 45
X13 = 50
X14 = 55
X15 = 60
X16 = 65
X17 = 70
X18 = 75
X19 = 80
X20 = 85
X21 = 90
X22 = 95
X23 = 100
X24 = 105
X25 = 110[
/QUOTE]

Perhaps like this ...



However do you think its too steep of a change from X12 to X19? Note I did not change X19 to X26. The problem I think if we make them too cheap is early stuff will just go obsolete to fast that you do not have any time to build them.

I am not sure what to do. I guess we did not realize how perfect my old perfect my old prehistoric era setup was. It took us forever to get it working so well. Its only now that is out of balance we realize how balanced it was before.

I completely agree before was waaay better, and actually very "FUN" to play cause something was happening ALL the time!!

For one thing the units now are too spread out and far in-between.

Hydromancerx
May 06, 2012, 03:41 PM
Well if we can get a caveman looking unit without a weapon we can at least add one to the early game. I could try to think up some more but I suspect there is really not going to be too much to choose from at such a primitive technology level.

strategyonly
May 06, 2012, 03:44 PM
Well if we can get a caveman looking unit without a weapon we can at least add one to the early game. I could try to think up some more but I suspect there is really not going to be too much to choose from at such a primitive technology level.

You are absolutely correct there, and NO graphics people will do units anymore.
I just think we separated them to far apart is all, maybe added to many "indifferent" tech, all meaning the same thing but are really "minors" of what the big major techs are the same of, if i am explaining this correctly:crazyeye::confused:

ie: Hunting and Hunting Tactics?? Separate Atlatl Making?? why?? See what i am trying to say??

Dancing Hoskuld
May 06, 2012, 04:03 PM
Yes, but it (the AI) ASSUMES that enabling techs will make the units available by some as-yet-unrevealed mechanic, and therefore counts the unit value into the tech value, and potentially beelines it because of that. A way to avoid this would be to make the outcome's availability dependent on a promotion (rather than requiring a tech at all), make the promotion dependent on the tech, and give the unit that promotion (which cannot be earned any other way) automatically. The effect on avauilability is exactly as before, but the extra level of removal from the tech would be enough to stop the AI making any assumptions about it.

Alternatively I could stop the AI valuing (in tech values) any enabled units that cannot be directly built, but I'm worried this would distort something somewhere else. Apart from great people (none of which require any techs do they?) are there any other units which are not directly buildable? (if there aren't, and all GPs are tech-independent, then there is nothing to distort and I could safely make that change).

There is no reason for not having the unit be buildable due to a promotion. It would work. Of course you would then not be able to see when it becomes available in tech tree.:mischief: Edit However it will introduce a bigger problem later if we have multiple of these nomad units and get the way the definition for the way nomad units can build units generalised.

Edit - is there a reason why the unit itself is not part of what gets modularly loaded?

I was working on the promotions at the time so it got put in there. I will move it to the demo module.

Sgtslick
May 06, 2012, 05:32 PM
With the current Tech Tree the way it is set up, its really kind of boring . . .:(

ie: I have taken the low techs, meaning mainly the lower bottom half of the tech tree and left the top half almost alone, and i have gone now, over 200 turns (on Snail) with nothing to build, i have my city on Meager Wealth, and now Less Wealth for almost all this time??? No new units even have come in yet to upgrade to??

Precisely, glad im not the only one who think as much. Thats why I feel I have to edit xml to speed prehistoric up coz it becomes monotonous and frustrating.

Koshling
May 06, 2012, 05:54 PM
I was working on the promotions at the time so it got put in there. I will move it to the demo module.

Ok, that resolves the sisues. Seems like the best way.

Azurian
May 06, 2012, 11:52 PM
@Vokarya

So I have been looking at some techs from Realism Invictus and I wondered how you would convert them to C2C.

- Rudder
- Food Preservation
- Patent Rights
- Minority Rights

Are this techs approved for after the freeze?

Azurian
May 07, 2012, 12:20 AM
From Prehistoric to Transhuman Era these Techs currently do not provide any sort of benefit, they are currently just placeholders.

1. Mosaic Working
2. Imperialism
3. Mine Warfare
4. Cosmology
5. Television
6.3D Printing

May we should add content to them before adding new techs?

Hydromancerx
May 07, 2012, 01:15 AM
@strategyonly

I added in a few more prehistoric buildings. Hopefully this will give you more to do.

Azurian
May 07, 2012, 01:34 AM
@strategyonly

I added in a few more prehistoric buildings. Hopefully this will give you more to do.

If you need more stuff i can suggest these that experts agree were part of prehistoric entertainment :

Buildings
Rock Art / Rock Engraving
Exotic Stones Collection
Fertility Festival
Hunting Games / Hunting Rites
Raft Racing
Adolescence Ceremony
Animal Skin Drums
Carved Flute

Art and music


The Venus of Willendorf is one of the most famous Venus figurines.
Early examples of artistic expression, such as the Venus of Tan-Tan and the patterns found on elephant bones from Bilzingsleben in Thuringia, may have been produced by Acheulean tool users such as Homo erectus prior to the start of the Middle Paleolithic period. However, the earliest undisputed evidence of art during the Paleolithic period comes from Middle Paleolithic/Middle Stone Age sites such as Blombos Cave in the form of bracelets,[59] beads,[60] rock art,[44] and ochre used as body paint and perhaps in ritual.[30][44] Undisputed evidence of art only becomes common in the following Upper Paleolithic period.[61]

According to Robert G. Bednarik, Lower Paleolithic Acheulean tool users began to engage in symbolic behavior such as art around 850,000 BP and decorated themselves with beads and collected exotic stones for aesthetic rather than utilitarian qualities.[62] According to Bednarik, traces of the pigment ochre from late Lower Paleolithic Acheulean archeological sites suggests that Acheulean societies, like later Upper Paleolithic societies, collected and used ochre to create rock art.[62] Nevertheless, it is also possible that the ochre traces found at Lower Paleolithic sites is naturally occurring.[63]

Vincent W. Fallio interprets Lower and Middle Paleolithic marking on rocks at sites such as Bilzingsleben (such as zig zagging lines) as accounts or representation of altered states of consciousness[64] though some other scholars interpret them as either simple doodling or as the result of natural processes.

Upper Paleolithic humans produced works of art such as cave paintings, Venus figurines, animal carvings and rock paintings.[31] Upper Paleolithic art can be divided into two broad categories: figurative art such as cave paintings that clearly depicts animals (or more rarely humans); and nonfigurative, which consists of shapes and symbols.[31] Cave paintings have been interpreted in a number of ways by modern archeologists. The earliest explanation, by the prehistorian Abbe Breuil, interpreted the paintings as a form of magic designed to ensure a successful hunt.[65] However, this hypothesis fails to explain the existence of animals such as saber-toothed cats and lions, which were not hunted for food, and the existence of half-human, half-animal beings in cave paintings. The anthropologist David Lewis-Williams has suggested that Paleolithic cave paintings were indications of shamanistic practices, because the paintings of half-human, half-animal paintings and the remoteness of the caves are reminiscent of modern hunter-gatherer shamanistic practices.[65] Symbol-like images are more common in Paleolithic cave paintings than are depictions of animals or humans, and unique symbolic patterns might have been trademarks that represent different Upper Paleolithic ethnic groups.[66] Venus figurines have evoked similar controversy. Archeologists and anthropologists have described the figurines as representations of goddesses, pornographic imagery, apotropaic amulets used for sympathetic magic, and even as self-portraits of women themselves.[30][67]

R. Dale Guthrie[68] has studied not only the most artistic and publicized paintings, but also a variety of lower-quality art and figurines, and he identifies a wide range of skill and ages among the artists. He also points out that the main themes in the paintings and other artifacts (powerful beasts, risky hunting scenes and the over-sexual representation of women) are to be expected in the fantasies of adolescent males during the Upper Paleolithic.

The Venus figurines have sometimes been interpreted as representing a mother goddess; the abundance of such female imagery has led some to believe that Upper Paleolithic (and later Neolithic) societies had a female-centered religion and a female-dominated society. For example, this was proposed by the archeologist Marija Gimbutas and the feminist scholar Merlin Stone who was the author of the 1978 book When God Was a Woman[69][70] Various other explanations for the purpose of the figurines have been proposed, such as Catherine McCoid and LeRoy McDermott’s hypothesis that the figurines were created as self portraits of actual women[67] and R.Dale Gutrie's hypothesis that the venus figurines represented a kind of "stone age pornography".

The origins of music during the Paleolithic are unknown, since the earliest forms of music probably did not use musical instruments but instead used the human voice and or natural objects such as rocks, which leave no trace in the archaeological record. However, the anthropological and archeological designation suggests that human music first arose when language, art and other modern behaviors developed in the Middle or the Upper Paleolithic period. Music may have developed from rhythmic sounds produced by daily activities such as cracking nuts by hitting them with stones, because maintaining a rhythm while working may have helped people to become more efficient at daily activities.[71] An alternative theory originally proposed by Charles Darwin explains that music may have begun as a hominid mating strategy as many birds and some other animals produce music like calls to attract mates.[72] This hypothesis is generally less accepted than the previous hypothesis, but it nonetheless provides a possible alternative. Another explanation is that humans began to make music simply because of the pleasure it produced.

Upper Paleolithic (and possibly Middle Paleolithic[73]) humans used flute-like bone pipes as musical instruments,[30][74] Music may have played a large role in the religious lives of Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Like in modern hunter-gatherer societies, music may have been used in ritual or to help induce trances. In particular, it appears that animal skin drums may have been used in religious events by Upper Paleolithic shamans, as shown by the remains of drum-like instruments from some Upper Paleolithic graves of shamans and the ethnographic record of contemporary hunter-gatherer shamanic and ritual practices

Hydromancerx
May 07, 2012, 03:07 AM
The last 2 are converted in Percussion Instrument Maker and Woodwind Instrument Maker.

The rest have some potential. Having a Walkabout/Vision Quest could possibly be ones too.

Sgtslick
May 07, 2012, 12:25 PM
Some primitive graveyards could be a building.
Early hairdressers maybe? :)
Early bedding, so like a hut that makes prehistoric beds.
Early brothel or equivalent. "appears in Sumerian records from before 4000 BC"
This could lead to +crime from infanticide etc. (lack of contraception)

This gives me another idea- in SMAC (a game i played a lot) a lot of the civics affected growth, not simply because of agricultural practices like in c2c, but also because of idealogy for example religion could influence growth (contraception not allowed, abortion not allowed). Whereas something like atheism would have negative growth, more abortions etc. oh also abortion clinic as a building would be good (not prehistoric hehe) less revolt sentiment, +happiness.

An earlier spy unit would be nice. I think introducing espionage on a larger scale in prehistoric with different options would be great.

Another early tile improvement would be good too, maybe something like hunting zone, a tile that gets +1food +1 hammer where your people set lots of traps and hunt as a team in an organized way.

You could also make this improvement have a timed life, like only lasts 100 turns b4 your people exhaust it and need to rebuild it (takes like 20 turns or whatever).

Vokarya
May 07, 2012, 10:47 PM
From Prehistoric to Transhuman Era these Techs currently do not provide any sort of benefit, they are currently just placeholders.

1. Mosaic Working
2. Imperialism
3. Mine Warfare
4. Cosmology
5. Television
6.3D Printing

May we should add content to them before adding new techs?

I plan to use Imperialism for the Bayreuth Festspielhaus and Crystal Palace wonders. I need new XML tags for both to work the way I want them to, though.

Il Principe
May 08, 2012, 05:56 AM
Could a minefield improvement be added for mine warfare?
I imagine it to do a little damage and end movement when you walk into it.

Koshling
May 08, 2012, 07:27 AM
I plan to use Imperialism for the Bayreuth Festspielhaus and Crystal Palace wonders. I need new XML tags for both to work the way I want them to, though.

IMO 3D printing should add +1 hammer to the cottage line.

AIAndy
May 08, 2012, 08:49 AM
An interesting twist to the tech tree would be to randomize it somewhat so each game you play you get a tech tree that is a bit different than the last time.
So instead of specifying direct dependencies you would place some restrictions (like tech A needs to be somewhat after tech B and the like) and a randomized algorithm then generates the actual tech tree for that game (maybe also a specific different tech tree for each player).
And instead of getting the a specific building or unit always at the same technology, it might be part of a certain set of techs.

While some dependencies in technology are kind of strict, others have been developed in different order by different people (or are unrelated enough that they can be considered independent).

strategyonly
May 08, 2012, 03:09 PM
An interesting twist to the tech tree would be to randomize it somewhat so each game you play you get a tech tree that is a bit different than the last time.
So instead of specifying direct dependencies you would place some restrictions (like tech A needs to be somewhat after tech B and the like) and a randomized algorithm then generates the actual tech tree for that game (maybe also a specific different tech tree for each player).
And instead of getting the a specific building or unit always at the same technology, it might be part of a certain set of techs.

While some dependencies in technology are kind of strict, others have been developed in different order by different people (or are unrelated enough that they can be considered independent).

I like this idea, but when i used to play Heroes III, they actually had a tech tree and a "fork" in the road, if you go one way its the "GOOD" way of righteousness,
but if you take the other one the "Evil" forces you more or less played like a "Villain" or War-monger. Just an idea.

ls612
May 08, 2012, 04:14 PM
IMO 3D printing should add +1 hammer to the cottage line.

3D printing should also give hammer bonuses to the Factory-type city buildings as well (instead of normal prototyping, you use 3D printing technology to make new designs faster).

Hydromancerx
May 09, 2012, 12:11 AM
From Prehistoric to Transhuman Era these Techs currently do not provide any sort of benefit, they are currently just placeholders.

1. Mosaic Working
2. Imperialism
3. Mine Warfare
4. Cosmology
5. Television
6.3D Printing

May we should add content to them before adding new techs?

1. I have plans for this. It also obsoletes Sand Paintings.
2. I think others have some ideas for this.
3. If we ever get the Mire Warfare mod working that's where all their stuff will go.
4. I think the Observatory gets a bonus at this already.
5. I have yet to move the TV studio and other related buildings over to this.
6. There was suggestions that it would boost cottages or even factories.

An interesting twist to the tech tree would be to randomize it somewhat so each game you play you get a tech tree that is a bit different than the last time.
So instead of specifying direct dependencies you would place some restrictions (like tech A needs to be somewhat after tech B and the like) and a randomized algorithm then generates the actual tech tree for that game (maybe also a specific different tech tree for each player).
And instead of getting the a specific building or unit always at the same technology, it might be part of a certain set of techs.

While some dependencies in technology are kind of strict, others have been developed in different order by different people (or are unrelated enough that they can be considered independent).

I highly dislike this. Its hard enough to balance things with them set. Now you want them to be random? If this is ever implemented it should be fat FAR down the road after things have settled down. We are not even done adding techs for goodness sakes!

strategyonly
May 09, 2012, 01:17 PM
I think we might have to adjust the tech costs for early ancient era now also, i am just at Pottery and it says 32 turns till next tech The Wheel then another 34 turns for that tech, and i have nothing to build in four cities, and i got stuck on a continent of Tundra where there is hardly any animals, besides Antelopes and Musk Oxen, some Beaver but not anything else. Its really boring on Snail. Just a thought, anyone else?? Or maybe its just that i am by myself on the continent with nothing to do??

Hydromancerx
May 09, 2012, 03:50 PM
I think you just got a bad spot. I remember getting a starting location like yours with the old prehistoric tec set up and everything seemed to go SO slow. Right now in my game I have an average starting location in a more temperate zone and I am doing fine.

Thus I think you just got a bad starting location. I suggest next time if you can to migrate away from the tundra to a more temperate zone before you plop down your first city. On snail its not going to be that much of a set back if you find a better location.

strategyonly
May 09, 2012, 04:01 PM
I think you just got a bad spot. I remember getting a starting location like yours with the old prehistoric tec set up and everything seemed to go SO slow. Right now in my game I have an average starting location in a more temperate zone and I am doing fine.

Thus I think you just got a bad starting location. I suggest next time if you can to migrate away from the tundra to a more temperate zone before you plop down your first city. On snail its not going to be that much of a set back if you find a better location.

Yeah, i believe your right, i am just testing every venue i can, and man oh man i believe this is the worst, Tundra settings for the whole continent.

Koshling
May 09, 2012, 04:07 PM
Yeah, i believe your right, i am just testing every venue i can, and man oh man i believe this is the worst, Tundra settings for the whole continent.

Try GEM, England, eternity.

ls612
May 09, 2012, 04:16 PM
I think we might have to adjust the tech costs for early ancient era now also, i am just at Pottery and it says 32 turns till next tech The Wheel then another 34 turns for that tech, and i have nothing to build in four cities, and i got stuck on a continent of Tundra where there is hardly any animals, besides Antelopes and Musk Oxen, some Beaver but not anything else. Its really boring on Snail. Just a thought, anyone else?? Or maybe its just that i am by myself on the continent with nothing to do??

I think the problem is your start spot, being the only one on your continent makes things really boring until Navigation, and on Snail that is a long while. I normally abandon games where I don't have a good start position and/or have no other civs on my starting landmass.

Koshling
May 09, 2012, 05:51 PM
I think the problem is your start spot, being the only one on your continent makes things really boring until Navigation, and on Snail that is a long while. I normally abandon games where I don't have a good start position and/or have no other civs on my starting landmass.

Isolation early can make the game later more interesting though. England is just orders of magnitude more challenging to play than Russia (say), and when you finally get to invade Europe it makes for a much more interesting game. The problem is that prehistoric is very tedious in such an environment. Gamespeed is not the answer - some of us play on very slow speeds so we can savour the way the game changes over time and still have a chnace for serious strategy at each stage, which needs a slow speed. Trouble is that a nothing-to-do era is magnified by a slow speed. The fix is to have more to do, but that's easy to say, and harder to figure out how to achieve! I suspect I just need bigger maps, so that even the isolated 'islands' are large enough to support decent hunting and so on (and barbs).

JosEPh_II
May 09, 2012, 06:08 PM
Giant or Gigantic Archipelagos or Islands maps with no more than 9 AI. Plenty of room to explore and expand and when you do meet your neighbor he's not a weak push over that crowded maps give you.

@Sgtslick,
oh also abortion clinic as a building would be good (not prehistoric hehe) less revolt sentiment, +happiness.
I hope this Never, ever makes it into this mod! Less revolt sentiment, + happiness??? :nono: :/

JosEPh

ls612
May 09, 2012, 07:48 PM
@Sgtslick,

I hope this Never, ever makes it into this mod! Less revolt sentiment, + happiness??? :nono: :/

JosEPh

Ditto, I don't even want to touch abortion with a ten-foot pole in C2C. :(

Sgtslick
May 09, 2012, 10:09 PM
sorry forgot there are americans present :lol: i kid,
after I wrote this i thought - actually revolt unrest could maybe go both ways + or -
I think it'd be a good building coz it would affect growth too.

Il Principe
May 10, 2012, 12:14 AM
It could have + unrest if running one of the more restrictive relgios civics or relgious education.
No - unrest, but + :) in cities that complain about "it´s too crowded" .
But nevertheless I agree wit ls612: Such a touchy subject sould stay out of the main C2C. Maybe as a mod mod, like the Nazi flavour civ, but not in the main mod.

Sgtslick
May 10, 2012, 02:16 AM
i don't really care either way, I just find myself curious. Would people be offended that its a building? Can't they just not build it? Choice is one of the great things about this mod and sometimes people choose options such as whether to run slavery or not because they want the best for there people and don't want to be a cruel leader irrespective of whether its the best strategy or not. I sometimes fall into this category. Wouldn't therefore controversial options such as abortion clinics enhance gameplay?
Is it that people would be offended by its presence? I guess i don't understand whats so offensive about it when it comes down to it. Personally I think its offensive to not allow abortion but I certainly don't make a song and dance about it either way. *re-reads last sentence :mischief:

Il Principe
May 10, 2012, 03:29 AM
i don't really care either way, I just find myself curious. Would people be offended that its a building? Can't they just not build it? Choice is one of the great things about this mod and sometimes people choose options such as whether to run slavery or not because they want the best for there people and don't want to be a cruel leader irrespective of whether its the best strategy or not. I sometimes fall into this category. Wouldn't therefore controversial options such as abortion clinics enhance gameplay?
Is it that people would be offended by its presence? I guess i don't understand whats so offensive about it when it comes down to it. Personally I think its offensive to not allow abortion but I certainly don't make a song and dance about it either way. *re-reads last sentence :mischief:

I think the problem is that it is closer to the players lives then salvery. Just like abstract fascism is not the same as having Hitler ingame.
I agree with you that civ is about the possibilities, and so having the possibility of running a Gulag building fascist empire based on slave labour should be there.
But when some people would be offended by certain content ( or not legaly be allowed to play it because of content) it just should stay out of the core mod. If not a mod mod, at least a module, off by default.
In the case of prostitution: I would actually turn this component on in my games. ( If it is well implemented ;) ). But with such a huge topic in todays western societes ( and maybe others as well, not sure) one has to be carefull.

Vokarya
May 13, 2012, 09:47 AM
I'm filling in my Tech Tree and I noticed Conglomerates is still ERA_TRANSHUMAN in the XML, but its grid position says (and what I suggested) that it should be ERA_MODERN. Does anyone else agree?

Hydromancerx
May 13, 2012, 12:27 PM
I'm filling in my Tech Tree and I noticed Conglomerates is still ERA_TRANSHUMAN in the XML, but its grid position says (and what I suggested) that it should be ERA_MODERN. Does anyone else agree?

Yeah it should be modern. Guess it was not changed when SO moved it.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 13, 2012, 08:02 PM
The mine warfare stuff is still on my list of things to do. There are a couple of problems to do with converting to the outcome system especially as you activate the mine then it just sits there until an enemy unit enters the same plot when the action happens which could be 1000's of turns after you do the activate. Most of the units are converted and the AI for placing and hunting is available in python but needs some work.

Vokarya
May 17, 2012, 08:36 AM
I read through the list of new technologies to update my Tech Tree and I noticed a few redundancies.

Critical Thought (Requires Clockworks AND Divine Right AND Education): Education is redundant (Education - Political Philosophy - Divine Right)

Enlightenment (Requires Critical Thought AND Printing Press AND Romanticism AND Social Contract): Printing Press is redundant (Printing Press - Humanism - Social Contract)

Patent Rights (Requires Corporation AND Nationalism): Nationalism is redundant (Nationalism - Constitution - Corporation)

Also, any idea when Rudder is going to be added? We had discussed it before, but it's not in yet.