View Full Version : New Natural Wonders?


WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 12, 2012, 03:15 PM
I love the idea of natural wonders, but there were simply not enough of them. I want MANY more...will they be adding any?

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 12, 2012, 03:17 PM
Mt. Sinai is the only one that I've yet heard of.

Pouakai
Apr 12, 2012, 03:18 PM
There was an accidental patch a couple weeks about that contained files for four new natural wonders: Mount Kailash, Mount Sinai, Uluru and one other that escapes me

Dark_Jedi06
Apr 12, 2012, 03:20 PM
There was an accidental patch a couple weeks about that contained files for four new natural wonders: Mount Kailash, Mount Sinai, Uluru and one other that escapes me

Really? That's awesome. The ones you mentioned will be great on my Earth map. :D

Duke Maynard
Apr 12, 2012, 03:22 PM
It is worth noting that all the new natural wonders are also religious in nature.

Ribannah
Apr 12, 2012, 03:48 PM
Bermuda Triangle :)
Mariana Trench
Niagara Falls (or Victoria Falls)
Salar de Uyuni
Tianmen Cave

WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 12, 2012, 04:08 PM
There was an accidental patch a couple weeks about that contained files for four new natural wonders: Mount Kailash, Mount Sinai, Uluru and one other that escapes me

Accidental patch? Why didn't I get that?
I do like the idea of those though...

Pouakai
Apr 12, 2012, 04:11 PM
They rolled it back quickly after, it wasn't meant to be released

WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 12, 2012, 04:13 PM
They rolled it back quickly after, it wasn't meant to be released

Does that mean they released part of the expansion early, or will there be a patch with new items/features preceeding the expansion?

Gucumatz
Apr 12, 2012, 04:16 PM
We aren't sure, but in reviews/articles Mt Sinai has been mentioned as included in the Demos that the interviewees were shown.

Greg came and said it was part of a patch for stuff that was coming out later (this was before the expansion was revealed).

So could very well come with the expansion, but Greg said it would be part of a patch.

WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 12, 2012, 04:20 PM
We aren't sure, but in reviews/articles Mt Sinai has been mentioned as included in the Demos that the interviewees were shown.

Greg came and said it was part of a patch for stuff that was coming out later (this was before the expansion was revealed).

So could very well come with the expansion, but Greg said it would be part of a patch.

Interesting. It would be very strange to release free stuff right before an expansion, but it would be appreciated.

Buccaneer
Apr 12, 2012, 05:43 PM
I love the idea of natural wonders, but there were simply not enough of them. I want MANY more...will they be adding any?

Only if you mean you would like to see many more variety, then I would agree. Having more natural wonders (as well as resources) on a map (i.e, higher density) would be a very bad idea.

DonStamos
Apr 12, 2012, 06:03 PM
Bermuda Triangle :)
Mariana Trench
Niagara Falls (or Victoria Falls)
Salar de Uyuni
Tianmen Cave

Bermuda Triangle would rule!
So would Mariana Trench/Challenger Deep and Niagara Falls

Should also have Victoria Falls, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Serengheti, Lake Baikal, Galapagos Islands.

Needless to say, also random Natural Wonder generation, so not all of them appear on the same map.

ehecatzin
Apr 12, 2012, 07:26 PM
I was about to mention Galapagos Islands, the more variety the better, Im sick of seeing the Barringer crater so much.

With so many natural incredible locations I still cant understand why would they use fantasy ones, el dorado and fountain of Youth? I hope Atlantis is not a new Natural Wonder.

Zaimejs
Apr 12, 2012, 08:18 PM
It seems like there should be some cool forests as Natural Wonders. Like Redwood National Park.

Royal Gorge

Dead Sea

The giant red rock in Australia

Glacier National Park (something to give icy regions a bit of a boost).

A beach of some kind.

Where is Easter Island?

Pouakai
Apr 12, 2012, 08:24 PM
"Giant red rock in Australia" = Uluru

PhilBowles
Apr 12, 2012, 08:45 PM
I was about to mention Galapagos Islands, the more variety the better, Im sick of seeing the Barringer crater so much.

With so many natural incredible locations I still cant understand why would they use fantasy ones, el dorado and fountain of Youth? I hope Atlantis is not a new Natural Wonder.

It made sense in the New World scenario which introduced them. But no, I don't know why they were introduced into the main game. It's also off to have some Natural Wonders with 'first to discover' bonuses and others without (and the Fountain of Youth effect is completely over the top in any case). I like the graphics for both, but I hope that some of the new Natural Wonders will replace these two. Even had it existed, El Dorado could hardly be considered 'natural', and the graphic for the fountain is of an artificial fountain (though the myth is more appropriately of a spring).

If we're unlucky, the focus on religious Natural Wonders will give us Shangri-La. :(

EDIT: I really like the idea of the Galapagos as a Natural Wonder. Uluru I understand is being added, but the graphic won't look that different from the existing mesa.

The Grand Canyon is sufficiently obvious that it must have been left out for a reason.

Other ideas: Mount Api:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Pinnacles_at_Mulu_2.jpg

Iguacu Falls:

http://www.duanrevig.com/Bresil/Iguacu%20falls%20carte%20postale.JPG

DonStamos
Apr 12, 2012, 09:03 PM
It seems like there should be some cool forests as Natural Wonders. Like Redwood National Park.

Royal Gorge

Dead Sea

The giant red rock in Australia

Glacier National Park (something to give icy regions a bit of a boost).

A beach of some kind.

Where is Easter Island?

I'd like to see Aokigahara, but I doubt the Woods of Suicide would make it in even though it's a major Japanese tourist attraction :'(

Liex
Apr 12, 2012, 09:27 PM
Pouakai is compiling Natural Wonders suggestions (among other things) here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=457511

Iguaçu, Niagara and/or Victoria Falls really should be in the game, but perhaps it's not easy to create a waterfall's graphics and fit them in the terrain/rivers in a way they look nice.

Liex
Apr 12, 2012, 09:32 PM
Where is Easter Island?

Pacific (Chile)

It's famous for its man-made Moai (Polynesia's UI), so I'd say they not qualify as a Natural Wonder.

Legal_My_Deagle
Apr 13, 2012, 12:05 AM
Carmen Sandiago should be placed somewhere on the map, huge $$$ bonus for finding her

durian
Apr 13, 2012, 12:35 AM
There was an accidental patch a couple weeks about that contained files for four new natural wonders: Mount Kailash, Mount Sinai, Uluru and one other that escapes me

Since all these sites are religious in nature, I wonder how they would tie in with the new religion mechanics in G&K... Maybe discovering these natural wonders would give you some bonus faith points that would help you found a religion faster? Any thoughts?

theadder
Apr 13, 2012, 12:52 AM
Since all these sites are religious in nature, I wonder how they would tie in with the new religion mechanics in G&K... Maybe discovering these natural wonders would give you some bonus faith points that would help you found a religion faster? Any thoughts?

That sounds like an excellent mechanic, so long as it isn't the sort of thing that pushes a civilisation a long way ahead with faith; it would need to be a relatively small bonus, perhaps similar to the current ancient ruins culture addition.

This works especially well since the Great Prophet is a randomised spawn and so an additional +20 faith [or whatever other value] is valuable, but not game changing; it adds to the chance, but doesn't make it inevitable.

Gigaz
Apr 13, 2012, 01:42 AM
Since all these sites are religious in nature, I wonder how they would tie in with the new religion mechanics in G&K... Maybe discovering these natural wonders would give you some bonus faith points that would help you found a religion faster? Any thoughts?

I guess a citizen will create faith when he works on a religious natural wonder, just like he can create culture from the Fuji. Obviously, if you change your religion in the later game and keep working on Mount Sinai, god will smite your citizen from time to time. :p

WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 13, 2012, 08:32 AM
Only if you mean you would like to see many more variety, then I would agree. Having more natural wonders (as well as resources) on a map (i.e, higher density) would be a very bad idea.

I think a higher density would be good too. I rarely have a natural wonder in my Civ's limits when I play, and in the real world there are many natural wonders in nearly every country. We here in America have dozens. Hell, just in California there are at least 5 significant ones (Mt Whitney, Death Valley, Lake Tahoe, everything in Yosemite, Mt Shasta, etc.) and they all play a role in the economy and culture.

We don't need the fictional ones (Fountain of Youth, Cerro de Potosi, El Dorado) which are very powerful, we just need mediocre ones which are only powerful in early game like Old Faithful and stuff.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 08:37 AM
The fictional Fountain of Youth has been a moderate tourist attraction for Florida for quite a while.

Bonci
Apr 13, 2012, 08:40 AM
I think that a great natural wonder could be Mount Olympus...and it would perfectly fit with the theme of the expansion.

Carazycool
Apr 13, 2012, 08:46 AM
I don't think adding waterfall graphics would be difficult at all. Just have a mountain tile with water flowing down it. They could add additional impassible tiles if necessary.

I think the Grand Canyon would be an awesome addition. a long impassible canyon (3 or 4 tiles?)

i also want to see the Amazon River as a natural wonder. It would have to be really long so it would be too many tiles to have tile yield boosts...but maybe a science boost to any city that is founded on the river itself?

i am excited about all of these possabilties.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 09:00 AM
I'd like to see waterfalls, but because rivers exist between tiles, it would have to be a two tile wonder like the GBR. I think the Grand Canyon would work best as a rift between tiles too.

BTW, the Royal Gorge? The one with the Arkansas River running through it? I've been to the top and the bottom of it, and it's cool and all, but it's not Wonder material, IMO. It just doesn't inspire the same kind of jaw-dropping awe that the Grand Canyon does.

awesome
Apr 13, 2012, 09:34 AM
i'd rather have them call it ayer's rock than uluru, since most people have heard of it using that name, but i guess using the indigenous name makes more sense if it's going to be faith-based. i also wouldn't mind an espionage natural wonder, but i'm not getting my hopes up.
Bermuda Triangle :)
i jokingly mentioned this one in the april fools thread and someone even came up with an ability for it. i wouldn't be surprised if it's part of next year's joke.

elprofesor
Apr 13, 2012, 11:04 AM
We don't need the fictional ones (Fountain of Youth, Cerro de Potosi, El Dorado)

Last time I checked, el cerro de Potosí was real, and actually contributed to the devaluation of silver in the old continent.

WeneedmoreCivs
Apr 13, 2012, 11:12 AM
Last time I checked, el cerro de Potosí was real, and actually contributed to the devaluation of silver in the old continent.

You're right that it's a real place, but not exactly as it's depicted in the game. It's far too powerful in comparison to the other non-fiction ones.

I mean, Bolivia would certainly be much better off if Potosi was actually as it is in the game.

CoolLizy
Apr 13, 2012, 11:13 AM
The only thing fictional about Cerro de Potosi was that it was often rumored to actually be made completely out of silver (which likely contributed to its look in the game). Other than that it's an actual place that exists.

As for the topic at hand, I would really like to see more wonders that aren't from the United States; the U.S. has a really lopsided representation in the game as far as natural wonders go. The Grand Mesa over Ayres Rock? Really? Personally, I'm among those routing for Victoria Falls to be included.

I mean, Bolivia would certainly be much better off if Potosi was actually as it is in the game.

They kinda were until the silver started to run out. Well, that and the whole Spanish conquest thing.

Zaimejs
Apr 13, 2012, 12:49 PM
I love the idea of the Amazon.

Have also noticed that the wonders seem to always be really close to city states. The last game I played, I rushed a settler to get the gold mountain wonder... I had to buy the tile before the CS creeped in on it. I see this quite frequently. It makes me want to start wars.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 12:51 PM
Another benefit for Austria, then. Plus, you can conquer unallied city-states in G&K without being labelled a warmonger (or so I hear), which will help you scratch that itch as well.

comatosedragon
Apr 13, 2012, 01:53 PM
On a (semi) unrelated note -- I hope they add a toggle to turn off fantasy natural wonders. But more variety would definitely be welcome.

Remmert
Apr 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
I remember Lake Titicaca (Peru/Bolivia) was mentioned many times before Civ V came out, However it never appeared in the game.
Maybe in the G&K expansion?

Zaimejs
Apr 13, 2012, 02:15 PM
Lake Baikal has always intrigued me.

And I would love to see (and I've mentioned this before) mountain ranges become important as tourist features. Rockies... Alps... Everest...

I would also like to see engineers/workers be able to build passes through the mountains at the steam age.

Radu_Magus
Apr 13, 2012, 03:36 PM
They could include the New 7 Wonders of Nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New7Wonders_of_Nature

Optional
Apr 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
I remember Lake Titicaca (Peru/Bolivia) was mentioned many times before Civ V came out, However it never appeared in the game.
Maybe in the G&K expansion?Both the names of Titicaca and Everest appear often in the mapscripts. It must have been at quite a late stage that they were rejected.
Hard to say what will happen with Gods & Kings.

Beefie
Apr 13, 2012, 04:07 PM
I thought a good way to do the Amazon in the game would be to have the Amazon Estuary as the actual "Wonder" tiles with the bonus yields (in this case, would you say food and some science?), and just code it so a river/several rivers run into it.

CoolLizy
Apr 13, 2012, 04:16 PM
It'd actually be neat if the game named all the rivers on the map, although that'd probably be a pain to program.

durian
Apr 13, 2012, 06:16 PM
Just as a side question, are natural wonders programmed to appear near city-states or vice versa? In my experience, a lot of the natural wonders on the map seem to be placed close to city-states.

theadder
Apr 13, 2012, 06:35 PM
On a (semi) unrelated note -- I hope they add a toggle to turn off fantasy natural wonders. But more variety would definitely be welcome.

I'd approve of this also.

I don't want the Fountain of Youth in my games.

It'd actually be neat if the game named all the rivers on the map, although that'd probably be a pain to program.

I think that this appears in the iOS Civilisation Revolutions; the player picks from a list of three names.

Just as a side question, are natural wonders programmed to appear near city-states or vice versa? In my experience, a lot of the natural wonders on the map seem to be placed close to city-states.

Yes; I get the impression that they are not properly and evenly spread in my games; the city states seem to get the vast bulk of them.

This doesn't seem right given how many player and major AI cities there are in any given game and the larger percentage of the map that they take up.

I should like this adjusted if possible.

Liex
Apr 13, 2012, 07:01 PM
I thought a good way to do the Amazon in the game would be to have the Amazon Estuary as the actual "Wonder" tiles with the bonus yields (in this case, would you say food and some science?), and just code it so a river/several rivers run into it.

Trivia: I'd say culture. When the Amazon River meets the Atlantic, the sound of their waves crashing at each other is so intense that it can be heard deep inside the silent forest. This served as inspiration for local indigenous' legends. Nowadays crazy people go there for water sports...

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 07:20 PM
If I had to guess, it's probably more accurate the civs are programmed not to appear next to a wonder. Therefore, that increases the chances of a City-State appearing next to one.

CoolLizy
Apr 13, 2012, 07:24 PM
I think that this appears in the iOS Civilisation Revolutions; the player picks from a list of three names.

It appears in all versions of CivRev (even the DS version; although the name doesn't appear on the map there), although it's a bit spotty as to how, when, and where it kicks in. You could also name forests and grasslands and such, with the same spotty appearances.

CivOasis
Apr 13, 2012, 08:18 PM
I nominate the large list that others have helped accrue in my signature.

Specifically, how about the auroras, as random tiles near the poles of a map?

Camikaze
Apr 13, 2012, 08:56 PM
I'm curious as to what sort of benefits new natural wonders will give. Presumably faith?

sumodaz
Apr 14, 2012, 01:13 AM
It appears in all versions of CivRev (even the DS version; although the name doesn't appear on the map there), although it's a bit spotty as to how, when, and where it kicks in. You could also name forests and grasslands and such, with the same spotty appearances.

Its the only thing I would like to take from CivRev, I thought that was a good little touch.

As for natural wonders would like to see Everest in there.

WarMachine
Apr 14, 2012, 06:43 AM
"Giant red rock in Australia" = Uluru


aka Ayer's Rock

CoolLizy
Apr 14, 2012, 07:33 AM
Its the only thing I would like to take from CivRev, I thought that was a good little touch.
Speaking of which, in Civ IV I would also use the little markers you can place on the map to name bays, seas, mountain ranges, and other such geographic features. Wish they'd bring them back in Civ V. :(

Kimuyama
Apr 14, 2012, 09:50 AM
Anyone remember that Mt. Everest was supposed to appear in the game? There were pictures of it, even.
Why did they remove it?

Zaimejs
Apr 14, 2012, 10:06 AM
Tibetan controversy?

Glad to see others are noticing the abundance of NWs in CSs

Camikaze
Apr 14, 2012, 10:07 AM
NWs are placed in starting locations. City states all occupy starting position, whereas only a civ's capital does. So it stands to reason that they'll have a higher proportion of NWs.

Kimuyama
Apr 14, 2012, 10:14 AM
Look, look! It was totally in the game! (to the left in the upper picture, though it has old faithful for logo)
http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/files/4/9/4/4/0/coastal_city_132884_original.jpg
http://well-of-souls.com/civ/images/everest1.jpg

Optional
Apr 14, 2012, 10:40 AM
Anyone remember that Mt. Everest was supposed to appear in the game? There were pictures of it, even.
Why did they remove it?Tibetan controversy?I think that would be a good argument not to include Tibet as an independent nation - the Chinese authorities would not be pleased, but including Everest - the tallest mountain in the world - as a national wonder seems much less politically charged.

I don't think we have an explanation for it being left out. What I'm sometimes guessing is that it's because the real Everest is in the middle of a huge mountain group. All wonders in the game are scripted to appear in places that are like where they are in the real world - example: Fuji not on the biggest landmass.
But to put Everest on the map surrounded by other mountains? That would seem silly, since then only the Gods & Kings Carthaginians would find it.
But that's just a theory... Looking at that picture, it probably got replaced by the Grand Mesa at the 11th hour.NWs are placed in starting locations. City states all occupy starting position, whereas only a civ's capital does. So it stands to reason that they'll have a higher proportion of NWs.National Wonders are not placed near starting locations, both NW's and CS's are scripted to appear away from real civ's starting positions. I think it's because of this shared criterium that they can easily appear together.

durian
Apr 14, 2012, 11:47 AM
Speaking of which, in Civ IV I would also use the little markers you can place on the map to name bays, seas, mountain ranges, and other such geographic features. Wish they'd bring them back in Civ V. :(

Those markers were very handy for planning out city placement and such as well. I hope they bring those back in G&K, though I doubt that it's gonna happen.

Pouakai
Apr 14, 2012, 12:06 PM
Aha, you found the picture of Everest! I've been looking for that for ages, thanks!!!

CoolLizy
Apr 14, 2012, 02:39 PM
Is that the Old Faithful icon on it?...

Pouakai
Apr 14, 2012, 02:56 PM
Yeah, it is. I don't think they got around to making an icon

Kimuyama
Apr 14, 2012, 02:56 PM
Yes it is.

ehecatzin
Apr 14, 2012, 04:40 PM
Im noticing a lack of natural wonders fitted for the Maya and Aztec... or in other words Mexican ones so here's my suggestions...

Copper Canyon- Located in Chihuahua, Mexico, its formed by six rivers and its larger and in some parts deeper than the Grand Canyon. The Rarámuri actually managed to resist the Spaniards for centuries by inhabiting the canyon, making any attempt of subjugation incredibly dificult.

It would be interesting if it could ocupy multiple tiles, like the great reef barrier does.

http://www.destination360.com/north-america/mexico/images/s/mexico-copper-canyon.jpg

Cave of Swallows- Located in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, Its the largest cave shaft in the world, you could easily fit the Chrysler building inside it.

http://mexico.a-holic.com/files/2008/12/elsc3b3tanodelasgolondrinas-mc3a9xico1.jpg

Ox Bel Ha Quintana Roo, Mexico, Ox Bel Ha is a system of caves and cenotes that contains the largest underwater cave in the world (233.43 kilometers)

http://www.mexicocavediving.com/artwork/obhdec1999web.gif
http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/43945/2964118750103830173S600x600Q85.jpg
http://www.tecdive.ru/library/photos/396.jpg

Zaimejs
Apr 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
If we're going to go there... Ogallala Aquifer... under Nebraska. Largest reservoir of fresh water in the known universe. Farms +1.

Gucumatz
Apr 14, 2012, 05:29 PM
Except the Caves and Cenotes have been used for millenia. Unlike the Ogalla Aquifer. Home of plenty of ceremonies and traditions.

CoolLizy
Apr 14, 2012, 06:25 PM
Underground features like aquifers would be a bit tricky to communicate visually as a map tile, though.

ehecatzin
Apr 14, 2012, 06:33 PM
Underground features like aquifers would be a bit tricky to communicate visually as a map tile, though.

Yeah you're probably right, I guess I just want to see cenotes in the game. :lol:

nationstate
Apr 14, 2012, 06:42 PM
there should be more "legendary" wonders like Mount Olympus

theadder
Apr 14, 2012, 06:45 PM
there should be more "legendary" wonders like Mount Olympus

That's a real place.

I'm opposed to ones that aren't real; I'd like the Fountain of Youth removed, as well as El Dorado.

Mount Olympus would be fine.

Everest would also be nice too, if the graphic could show it as suitably high.

ehecatzin
Apr 14, 2012, 06:47 PM
there should be more "legendary" wonders like Mount Olympus

There's lots natural landmarks that could be used that have a lot of history behind them. Besides we already have El dorado and fountain of youth (sadly), if they keep adding fantasy stuff, how long before they add Camelot and Atlantis?


*EDIT* after googling Mount Olympus...as long as they dont mess it with fantasy like, agh El dorado, should be fine.

GenjiKhan
Apr 14, 2012, 08:58 PM
I don't see any problem with Atlantis,as long as their bonus would be only avaliable after researching Biology or some technology related to Underwater research .

Pouakai
Apr 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
We've already got three from America, let others have a chance!

Ngorongoro Crater would be a great one, science and food boost

DonStamos
Apr 14, 2012, 09:26 PM
I don't see any problem with Atlantis,as long as their bonus would be only avaliable after researching Biology or some technology related to Underwater research .

Instead of Atlantis, should be Bimini Road.

SammyKhalifa
Apr 14, 2012, 09:46 PM
i also wouldn't mind an espionage natural wonder, but i'm not getting my hopes up.


Hollowed-out Volcano Lair?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1nGGgA69LpQ/TdLjIC_TWUI/AAAAAAAAAeQ/oopGsUrK8yw/s400/DrEvilsLair_300x200.jpg

:D

DonStamos
Apr 14, 2012, 10:54 PM
+1 for the Hollowed-Out Volcano Lair.

Camikaze
Apr 18, 2012, 08:02 AM
National Wonders are not placed near starting locations, both NW's and CS's are scripted to appear away from real civ's starting positions. I think it's because of this shared criterium that they can easily appear together.

Huh. I (evidently) did not know that. Is there any other criteria beyond appearing away from major civ starting positions?

Germnoble
Apr 18, 2012, 11:22 AM
The Sleeping Giant in Canada would be cool, or the Icefields, something to boost arctic areas would be nice.

shaglio
Apr 18, 2012, 11:41 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Giant's Causway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_causeway) in Northern Ireland as a Natty Wonder.

Gilgamesch
Apr 18, 2012, 12:36 PM
There's lots natural landmarks that could be used that have a lot of history behind them. Besides we already have El dorado and fountain of youth (sadly), if they keep adding fantasy stuff, how long before they add Camelot and Atlantis?



I would like to see Atlantis as a Civilization, not as a landmark.
Also its silly how many people still think Atlantis is fantasy stuff.:aargh:
You should remember Troja until Schliemann has found it.
BTW a lot of historian researches believe in Camelot, not as the Stone City, more like a wood camp.

Gucumatz
Apr 18, 2012, 02:21 PM
I would like to see Atlantis as a Civilization, not as a landmark.
Also its silly how many people still think Atlantis is fantasy stuff.:aargh:
You should remember Troja until Schliemann has found it.
BTW a lot of historian researches believe in Camelot, not as the Stone City, more like a wood camp.

Prester John also would like a word with you. Legendary is all it will remain. Why would anyone take it as real without proper evidence... Camelot to a degree as an actual location is much more reasonable. I just don't want fantasy-ists to continue to spin history for their benefits of "ancient aliens" etc. (Personally annoys me a lot because it ends up a degradation of the accomplishments of man and particular places "considered primative" to the west)

====

A legendary landmark at most. As a civ? No way, please no...

Gilgamesch
Apr 18, 2012, 02:52 PM
Ok, i will not spam this thread with my knowledge. But maybe i have to write that there are some strong proofs, that Atlantis is more then a legend.
So if you are willing i can send you a lot of details, that might change your opinion.:lol:
Remember when the ice age was ending and what happened to this time, and you will find your answers.

Gucumatz
Apr 18, 2012, 03:21 PM
Ok, i will not spam this thread with my knowledge. But maybe i have to write that there are some strong proofs, that Atlantis is more then a legend.
So if you are willing i can send you a lot of details, that might change your opinion.:lol:
Remember when the ice age was ending and what happened to this time, and you will find your answers.

Sure I wouldn't mind hearing and reading articles. At the very least it will provide me info about theories floating around. If you want message me. I doubt it would sway me though.

PhilBowles
Apr 18, 2012, 03:27 PM
Also its silly how many people still think Atlantis is fantasy stuff.

On the same basis that it's silly how many people are objecting to the real-world wonder El Dorado appearing in the game, I suppose.

BTW a lot of historian researches believe in Camelot, not as the Stone City, more like a wood camp.

Any particular historians? Camelot is known to be fictitious - it was never even mentioned in the Arthurian legends until the French romance period of the 12th Century, and those Arthurian legends are the only sources that exist for Camelot. It's certainly been speculated that Arthur may have existed as an early Romano-British leader, but there's no reason to imagine he would have been associated with any settlement with a name resembling Camelot, whatever it was made from.

Prester John also would like a word with you. Legendary is all it will remain. Why would anyone take it as real without proper evidence... Camelot to a degree as an actual location is much more reasonable. I just don't want fantasy-ists to continue to spin history for their benefits of "ancient aliens" etc. (Personally annoys me a lot because it ends up a degradation of the accomplishments of man and particular places "considered primative" to the west)

====

A legendary landmark at most. As a civ? No way, please no...

A guy called Gavin Menzies who wrote a popular (except with archaeologists) book speculating that China discovered America in 1492 recently lost the plot completely and decided to prove Atlantis existed - maybe that's why it's come back into vogue.

As for comparisons with Troy, the Illiad was notionally based on a historical event. There's no evidence that Plato's account of Atlantis was intended as anything more than a thought experiment, in much the same vein as James Hilton's invention of Shangri La to describe an ideal in fictional form. During the classical period itself (i.e. the period contemporary with Plato's original account), Atlantis was considered to be a fictitious construct; even within the context of his story Plato describes it as being a second-hand legend that Solon heard from the Egyptians (why he would learn in Egypt about a civilisation he considers most notable for losing a naval war with Athens is, as far as I know, left unclear). The fantasy of an island sinking in a single day was just a device to explain within the context of the story why the civilisation left no remains for Plato's contemporaries - again, much like the narrative device of Shangri La, a place that's characterised by a mountain nearly the size of Everest where no such mountain exists in reality, which is explained away by claiming that it can only be found if you're guided there.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 18, 2012, 03:37 PM
The thing about Plato's account that really strikes out the theory for me is this: he says that the Atlanteans controlled most of Europe and Africa as far east as to border Athens and Egypt.

We have found all sorts of evidence of historic and primitive humans all over those landscapes dating back tens of thousands of years. A civilization as ubiquitous and advanced as the Atlanteans should've left distinguishable and consistant evidence of an intercontinental empire. But no. We only find evidence of crude hunter-gatherers followed by increasingly more sophisticated agriculturalists leading up to the historic groups we know from ancient contemporaries.

But I digress. No more fantastical Natural Wonders please.

thadian
Apr 18, 2012, 03:48 PM
I would like krakatoa to give a different bonus because it almost never spawns in an area that is in or near settleable lands.

I would also like a natural wonder that damages units, and the ability to set traps on tiles.

PhilBowles
Apr 18, 2012, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=Eagle Pursuit;11432492]The thing about Plato's account that really strikes out the theory for me is this: he says that the Atlanteans controlled most of Europe and Africa as far east as to border Athens and Egypt.

I don't think Plato himself made any claims to the Atlanteans being especially advanced, rather this is a recent neologism - indeed it's the entire thrust of the narrative that they were beaten by the Athenians (one obvious red flag being that Athens would have to had existed 9,000 years prior to Plato's account, which we know not to be the case).

The key problem is not 'evidence' or lack of anything that can be constructed to invent evidence, it's that there's nothing to provide evidence for in the first place because Atlantis was only ever intended to be a fictional construct. You could tell me you had all the evidence in the world that Mordor existed, but since I know for a fact that Mordor was invented by JRR Tolkien, I know a priori that whatever 'evidence' you can present is no such thing.

Gilgamesch
Apr 18, 2012, 07:03 PM
[QUOTE]

The key problem is not 'evidence' or lack of anything that can be constructed to invent evidence, it's that there's nothing to provide evidence for in the first place because Atlantis was only ever intended to be a fictional construct. You could tell me you had all the evidence in the world that Mordor existed, but since I know for a fact that Mordor was invented by JRR Tolkien, I know a priori that whatever 'evidence' you can present is no such thing.

Really?
You mean Plato created Timaios and Kriteas as a great lie . For sure Plato was a
brazen-faced liar.:sarcasm:
Also he was a great Storyteller, he fictional created a great continent behind Atlantis, and was aware of the tropical zone were bananas grow. Really a accomplished liar.
And when we are talking about J.R.R. Tolkien, so he created Numenor, and this is the biggest evidence that Plato was a bloody liar. That is the best logic.

CivOasis
Apr 18, 2012, 08:30 PM
Last I knew, Atlantis was "real" in the sense that it may have been a fictional/mythologized a real incident (see Troy), with many changes to turn the original story into an allegory (not to mention that funky date thing going on). So, yes, it may have been technically real, but not by Plato's account.

As far as it goes, that is for the realm of modders to place legendary nations, especially given how far the stories stray from the truth (see El Dorado, where a king of an indigenous Colombian confederacy became the ruler of a golden city).

PhilBowles
Apr 18, 2012, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE=Gilgamesch;11433012][QUOTE=PhilBowles;11432717]

Really?
You mean Plato created Timaios and Kriteas as a great lie .

All of Plato's Dialogues use near-contemporary historical figures as mouthpieces. Hence Socrates showing up a lot. No one has any idea how much of what Plato attributes to Socrates was what Socrates genuinely said or would have said in those circumstances. In the specific case of Criteas, there's doubt over which Criteas he intends his character to be; it's generally considered not to be the politician who was one of the Thirty Tyrants, even though this is the Criteas who would have been contemporary with Socrates.

For sure Plato was a
brazen-faced liar.:sarcasm:
Also he was a great Storyteller, he fictional created a great continent behind Atlantis, and was aware of the tropical zone were bananas grow. Really a accomplished liar.

Why wouldn't he be aware of the tropical zone? The Greeks knew of areas at least as far south as Ethiopia, which borders the eastern portion of the African humid tropics. Bananas would notably not have grown in that part of the world at that time, and certainly not 9,000 years before Plato - the very earliest date proposed for banana domestication is approximately 8000 BC, and it's more likely closer to 5000 BC. Bananas were probably first domesticated in Papua New Guinea, and naturally occur in the Asian tropics.

This is a moot point in any case, as nowhere does Plato appear to describe the fruit of the "orchard trees" that he mentions, and there seems no reason to imagine he either knew about or was referring to bananas. Nor does he make any obvious reference to the tropics - the only reference to the climate is "making use of the rains from Heaven in the winter, and the waters that issue from the earth in summer, by conducting the streams from the trenches". While the tropics have a wet-dry season cycle, so do the African subtropics with which the Greeks would have been most familiar - indeed the Nile Valley civilisation was built on this cycle.

If you actually go back to the original text, it is very light on detail, describing only the dimensions of the island (which are plainly incorrect - I ran across one piece noting that if an island in the west Atlantic had been that size, it would have extended to Mt Cameroon), its formation as a series of concentric circles (created directly by Poseidon, incidentally, a true mark of the story's historical reliability), and the fact that it has some mountains in the south. It mentions that animals and cultivated fruit were plentiful, but describes neither. Most of the modern elaborations attributed to it - such as bananas Plato almost certainly had no knowledge of - appear to be altogether absent from Plato's text.

Camikaze
Apr 19, 2012, 05:03 AM
Back on the main topic, please, rather than a tangent. Less Plato, more discussion of different potential new natural wonders.

Zaimejs
Apr 19, 2012, 01:00 PM
Now that ships can be melee units, Rock of Gibraltar should offer super sea city defense. There should also be CLIFFS of lesser value to build coastal cities on.

Is there a major HARBOR that would be a good natural wonder? I would love to see that. I was thinking about sea life today and how varied and awesome it is. There could be more of a natural wonder to represent that... especially in the colder regions. Ice Shelf? I think I already said Great Glacier.

Maybe a mountain that would make a killer ski resort?

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 19, 2012, 01:04 PM
How about Cliffs of Insanity that are immune to naval assault unless the attacker is a Privateer and has the Hemp resource?

Zaimejs
Apr 19, 2012, 01:38 PM
Ooooh... I like the idea of wonders based on Princess Bride... what are the woods called?

shaglio
Apr 20, 2012, 06:36 AM
Now that ships can be melee units, Rock of Gibraltar should offer super sea city defense. There should also be CLIFFS of lesser value to build coastal cities on.

My first thought when I read this was the Cliffs of Moher in Ireland, but there aren't any cities built along the edge of it, just a small tower.

Kimuyama
Apr 20, 2012, 10:00 AM
How about the skeleton coast? Any unit who ventures into it, or to the coastal tiles directly adjacent to it DIES.

Glassmage
Apr 20, 2012, 10:06 AM
Atlantis: 1-tile island that give you additional culture and science.

Kimuyama
Apr 20, 2012, 10:07 AM
Actually, maps should have more hazards, like volcanoes.
They'd give a food and religion boost, and gold after Flight, but there's a chance it'll erupt and destroy 1-3 of the tiles surrounding it
As well as the aforementioned skeleton coast, but the killing of passing ships is a 1 in 5 chance, so that it is really hazardous to pass it before ships are able to go into ocean tiles (since coast tiles are usually only 1 tile wide).