View Full Version : Citrus: It's all so clear now (my deduction).


Simplicity4
Apr 13, 2012, 12:23 AM
After playing the New World scenario, something clicked regarding Gods and Kings. Citrus as a resource could be vitally important. Similar to Iron in building swordsmen, citrus should be necessary for Caravels and Frigates (or perhaps use exactly the scurvy mechanic from that scenario without it)... This would give us another Iron-like resource to fight over and it would make sea units more interesting.

Thread title changed.

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 12:25 AM
Certainly possible.

durian
Apr 13, 2012, 12:27 AM
Or it could be coffee... which happens to be one of the most popular drinks in the world and was a source of great wealth for the colonial powers.

theadder
Apr 13, 2012, 01:35 AM
As much as I'd like another strategic resource, I've not noticed any new ones in the status bar at the top of the game in any of the screenshots; this is true even in the late-game ones, when citrus would presumably have been utilised. Even if it became obsolete later in the game, old resources stay in the status bar, as iron does.

There are a lot of options and this is a good one, so I am a bit disappointed that there isn't at least one new one. On the other hand, there is so much new content that I can hardly complain.

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 03:03 AM
Or it could be coffee... which happens to be one of the most popular drinks in the world and was a source of great wealth for the colonial powers.
Granted that it's far from clear, but I don't see how anyone can get "Coffee" out of this tooltip.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/unknown_resource3.jpg

And I've never seen yellow coffee beans.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/unknown_resource2.jpg

D0MIN1C
Apr 13, 2012, 03:22 AM
Granted that it's far from clear, but I don't see how anyone can get "Coffee" out of this tooltip.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/unknown_resource3.jpg

And I've never seen yellow coffee beans.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/unknown_resource2.jpg

That's most definitely citrus. Regarding new strategic resources, some people have proposed rubber as a late game resource.

tithin
Apr 13, 2012, 03:49 AM
That looks a ton like citrus, though the stats look way too high for an improved resource. 7 gold and 4 food? Hell, the Great merchant is +4 G from memory (unimproved naturally)

Babri
Apr 13, 2012, 04:55 AM
That looks a ton like citrus, though the stats look way too high for an improved resource. 7 gold and 4 food? Hell, the Great merchant is +4 G from memory (unimproved naturally)
Maybe they are changing it back like it used to be in cIV, improved resources used to have great value those days. :cool:

MARDUK80
Apr 13, 2012, 05:07 AM
After playing the New World scenario, something clicked regarding Gods and Kings. Citrus as a resource could be vitally important. Similar to Iron in building swordsmen, citrus should be necessary for Caravels and Frigates (or perhaps use exactly the scurvy mechanic from that scenario without it)... This would give us another Iron-like resource to fight over and it would make sea units more interesting.


Why Citrus ?! I think Tar would be a much better Naval bonus/strategic resource (like Stone plays in the game) than Citrus.

Tar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar)
Bonus Resource
Requires Astronomy
Found in Forest tiles
Allows construction of Tar Kiln; Requires Astronomy, +5 XP for Naval Units built in the city, +1 Merchant slot. City must have a nearby source of Tar. Upon discovering Electricity, the Tar Kiln becomes obsolete.

Historical Info: Tar is modified pitch produced primarily from the wood and roots of pine by destructive distillation under pyrolysis. Production and trade in tar was a major contributor in the economies of Northern Europe and Colonial America. Its main use was in preserving wooden vessels against rot. The largest user was the Royal Navy. Demand for tar declined with the advent of iron and steel ships.

Tar kilns (Swedish: tjärdal, Danish: tjæremile, Norwegian: tjæremile, Finnish: tervahauta) are dry distillation ovens, historically used in Scandinavia for producing tar from wood. They were built close to the forest, from limestone or from more primitive holes in the ground. The bottom is sloped into an outlet hole, to allow the tar to pour out. The wood is split to dimensions of a finger and stacked densely, and finally covered tight with dirt and moss. If oxygen can enter, the wood might catch fire, and the production would be ruined. On top of this, a fire is stacked and lit. After a few hours, the tar starts to pour out, and continues to do so for a few days.

donhenriko
Apr 13, 2012, 05:24 AM
Why Citrus ?! I think Tar would be a much better Naval bonus/strategic resource (like Stone plays in the game) than Citrus.

Tar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar)
Bonus Resource
Requires Astronomy
Found in Forest tiles
Allows construction of Tar Kiln; Requires Astronomy, +5 XP for Naval Units built in the city, +1 Merchant slot. City must have a nearby source of Tar. Upon discovering Electricity, the Tar Kiln becomes obsolete.

Historical Info: Tar is modified pitch produced primarily from the wood and roots of pine by destructive distillation under pyrolysis. Production and trade in tar was a major contributor in the economies of Northern Europe and Colonial America. Its main use was in preserving wooden vessels against rot. The largest user was the Royal Navy. Demand for tar declined with the advent of iron and steel ships.

Tar kilns (Swedish: tjärdal, Danish: tjæremile, Norwegian: tjæremile, Finnish: tervahauta) are dry distillation ovens, historically used in Scandinavia for producing tar from wood. They were built close to the forest, from limestone or from more primitive holes in the ground. The bottom is sloped into an outlet hole, to allow the tar to pour out. The wood is split to dimensions of a finger and stacked densely, and finally covered tight with dirt and moss. If oxygen can enter, the wood might catch fire, and the production would be ruined. On top of this, a fire is stacked and lit. After a few hours, the tar starts to pour out, and continues to do so for a few days.

During the age of exploration scurvy was a big problem for European sailors trying to cross the great oceans of the world.

Only when the great British doctor James Lind discovered that citrus fruits were an effecient remedy for the disease, did the scurvy epidemic end:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/lind_james.shtml

It therefore make perfect sense to have citrus as a prerequisite resource for "blue water" navies :)

Tantor
Apr 13, 2012, 05:29 AM
I don`t think citrus should be a prerequisite for caravels etc. Scurvy was serious, but it didn`t prevent the spamiards from buuilding caravels or Columbus from finding America.
But it could be nice if different resources gave a bonus to some units.

bonafide11
Apr 13, 2012, 05:41 AM
Most likely, citrus (or coffee) will just apply the same generic happiness resource as every other one.

donhenriko
Apr 13, 2012, 05:57 AM
I don`t think citrus should be a prerequisite for caravels etc. Scurvy was serious, but it didn`t prevent the spamiards from buuilding caravels or Columbus from finding America.
But it could be nice if different resources gave a bonus to some units.

I guess I agree with you here.

Maybe make caravels and frigates in blue waters lose a certain amount of HP per turn as long as they don't have citrus??

PhilBowles
Apr 13, 2012, 05:58 AM
Maybe they are changing it back like it used to be in cIV, improved resources used to have great value those days. :cool:

Extra bonuses from jungle/plantations awarded by religious beliefs? As far as I've seen the only plantation bonus available based on religion is +2 culture, but do we know if we've seen all the beliefs?

elprofesor
Apr 13, 2012, 06:02 AM
That looks a ton like citrus, though the stats look way too high for an improved resource. 7 gold and 4 food? Hell, the Great merchant is +4 G from memory (unimproved naturally)

Maybe it's only 7 gold 1 food, which is way more reasonable. 1 and 4 kinda look alike.

Maximo the Xth
Apr 13, 2012, 06:04 AM
It´s 4 food/7 gold. But you don´t know about special pantheons/beliefs or technologies which could increase a plantation´s yield.

CoolLizy
Apr 13, 2012, 06:10 AM
Is it even a stockable resource, or is it just another local thing like bananas or cows?

MisterBoomBoom
Apr 13, 2012, 06:29 AM
I LOVE the concept that your navy units suffer scurvy until you have citrus resource. Fingers crossed! Make it happen!

tithin
Apr 13, 2012, 06:56 AM
It´s 4 food/7 gold. But you don´t know about special pantheons/beliefs or technologies which could increase a plantation´s yield.

This is logical, though the existing known pantheon bonuses have no bonus to gold or food from what I saw.

Human Crouton
Apr 13, 2012, 06:59 AM
I really like the idea, and hope that it is implemented in some way. Perhaps not weakening a unit dependent on it, but strengthening it slightly. Maybe giving caravels and frigates extra experience if you have citrus in your empire.

It also looks like they added hogs; and I believe that salami was a staple food of the Roman army because it took so long to go bad.

This would be a really cool mechanic. I hope they thought of it, and if not, that they patch something like that in. It would be neat for non-strategic resources to add a little more to an empire.

MARDUK80
Apr 13, 2012, 07:06 AM
This would be a really cool mechanic. I hope they thought of it, and if not, that they patch something like that in. It would be neat for non-strategic resources to add a little more to an empire.


I agree. In this concept also Amber (Luxury/Science) would fit perfectly, imo.


New Luxury Resource:

Amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber)
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

Yields: +2 Gold, After the discovery of Biology every Amber tile also gives +1 Science.

Improved by: Mine

Terrains Found On: Found on tiles adjacent to ocean.

Historical Info: "Amber is fossilized tree resin (not sap), which has been appreciated for its color and natural beauty since Neolithic times. Amber is used as an ingredient in perfumes, as a healing agent in folk medicine, and as jewelry. There are five classes of amber, defined on the basis of their chemical constituents. Because it originates as a soft, sticky tree resin, amber sometimes contains animal and plant material as inclusions. Amber occurring in coal seams is also called resinite, and the term ambrite is applied to that found specifically within New Zealand coal seams.

Amber was an important medium of exchange in the Stone Age. In some Central European countries it is customary for children to buy a teething amber beads. Amber reduce the old legend of the teething pains. In 2007, the Harvard researcher Santiago Ramirez a team of researchers discovered the waters of the Dominican Republic amber, which was the remnants of 15-20 million years ago to orchids. Discovery gave the researchers a new understanding about orchid history."

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 07:14 AM
I suspect it's just a regular bonus resource with the tile's ouput modified by buildings and/or beliefs.

tithin
Apr 13, 2012, 07:19 AM
I suspect it's just a regular bonus resource with the tile's ouput modified by buildings and/or beliefs.

Alternate explanation: This is a poor still of a video for a beta of which we have no idea has been properly balanced or not.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 07:29 AM
Is it even a stockable resource, or is it just another local thing like bananas or cows?

The most logical choice says it's just a bonus (local) resource.

Seek
Apr 13, 2012, 07:54 AM
That looks a ton like citrus, though the stats look way too high for an improved resource. 7 gold and 4 food? Hell, the Great merchant is +4 G from memory (unimproved naturally)

I'm fairly certain it's 2 gold - if you watch the toolip during the rest of the video, unimproved hills look like they have 7 production, but of course they only have 2.

mabalogna
Apr 13, 2012, 09:05 AM
I was looking at this resource last sunday when the video released and my assessment on the tile yeild is in that thread.

But i'll post it here too:
Plantation Resource, Citrus, built off Forests (possibly Grassland)
Resource provides +1:c5food:, +1:c5gold: to any tile it spawns on, and an additional +1:c5food:, +1:c5gold: after being worked.

Tile yield without improvements
Forest: 2:c5food:, 1:c5production: 1:c5gold:
Grassland: 3:c5food:, 1:c5gold:

Improved:
Forest: 3:c5food:, 1:c5production: 2:c5gold:
Grassland: 4:c5food:, 2:c5gold:

The interesting thing i noticed was that the Plantation didn't seem to destroy the forest, which means it will become a +1 food tile off forests, and still maintain at least 1 production.

Zhahz
Apr 13, 2012, 11:32 AM
Looks like a alternate/new graphic for a banana resource or something like it. Surely it's not a strategic resource and surely citrus is not going to be a strategic resource.

The wild speculation and crazy ideas people come up with and discuss over the slightest blurry screenshot or tidbit of info for this game is entertaining. If I was involved in developing this game I'd "leak" some fake screenshots/info just to watch the 20 page threads of misinterpretation generate.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 11:53 AM
It's not an alternative graphic or else they wouldn't have given it a new name.

Scaramanga
Apr 13, 2012, 12:33 PM
My guesstimation? Citrus gives +1 movement to naval units.

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
The only real reason for speculation that it might have some special quality, it seems to me, is why they would choose a curious name like "Citrus" instead of "Oranges" or "Lemons." And they did have a scurvy mechanic in a previous scenario, and if I remember correctly, they called the resource "citrus."

blackcatatonic
Apr 13, 2012, 01:00 PM
When the map throws you lemons...

Pouakai
Apr 13, 2012, 01:22 PM
...Combustable lemons unit potentially?

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 01:34 PM
...Adopt Oral Tradition?

mabalogna
Apr 13, 2012, 01:36 PM
Its worked by a Plantation, as can be seen in the demo from PAX, and is therefore most likely going to be a luxury resource - not strategic. This is something being added probably to include more happiness resources for civ's like Nederlands who'll benefit from more luxuries resources.

The name of arbitrary, but was probably picked as a means of encompassing all types of fruit that fall under the same classification as 'Citrus'.

Seek
Apr 13, 2012, 01:54 PM
Its worked by a Plantation, as can be seen in the demo from PAX, and is therefore most likely going to be a luxury resource - not strategic. This is something being added probably to include more happiness resources for civ's like Nederlands who'll benefit from more luxuries resources.


Don't tooltips list the happiness for luxuries? I know they do for the hover tooltip, but I play with the bottom right tooltips turned off, so I'm not sure if it shows up there.

AriochIV
Apr 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
Well, we can see it's not a Strategic Resource because there aren't any new icons on the UI. But you only need a Strategic Resource for something where individual units are allocated (as with Iron); other resources like Cows or Marble can impact game systems (like providing extra production for certain buildables in nearby cities) without being Strategic Resources.

Remmert
Apr 13, 2012, 02:11 PM
It also can be Cacoa. Chocolate is at least just as an interresting trade as coffee would be.
Maybe it would be a special Luxury, made by CS???

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 13, 2012, 02:17 PM
If it were Cocoa, I could see that as a Luxury, but citrus would just be a bonus resource, IMO. It could still give a +1 to naval movement like how marble give +15% to wonder production in the city that works it. It doesn't matter what type of resource it is for that effect.

Simplicity4
Apr 13, 2012, 02:26 PM
I like the idea of a scurvy mechanic, myself. In the scenario, how it worked was to cause you to lose 1 hp whenever your naval unit was outside friendly territory. Better than the strategic resource, in my opinion. I hope it's not another +1 naval movement, as there's lots of those already and they just don't seem that worth it. Although the increase in unit hitpoints is going to greatly change naval combat from the current "I-see-you-first" wins game.

IF the scurvy mechanic or something similar were to be used, it would mesh perfectly with Great Admirals. You can't cross the ocean easily without citrus... or unless you got Columbus to help heal your ships along the way. As Admirals are, they're not that exciting. But if they can combat scurvy? Heck yeah. I'll happily take one early.

nokmirt
Apr 13, 2012, 02:31 PM
That certainly looks like a patch of citrus trees in my eyes.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/unknown_resource2.jpg

http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2009/09/08/Calif_Sue/68cf38.jpg

Citrus tree

http://capitalcitycoffeecompany.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Coffee_Tree.6181650.jpg

Coffee beans

The resource pic must be citrus in this case.

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 02:49 PM
Its worked by a Plantation, as can be seen in the demo from PAX, and is therefore most likely going to be a luxury resource - not strategic.

Aren't bananas worked by plantations?

mabalogna
Apr 13, 2012, 03:17 PM
Aren't bananas worked by plantations?

yes thats right!

Correction - most likely a luxury *OR* bonus resource - not strategic

Louis XXIV
Apr 13, 2012, 03:22 PM
I agree. Although deer are worked by camps and so is ivory. Stone and Marble are worked by Quarries. They might decide to have Plantations for a strategic resource.

Although I highly doubt citrus is a strategic resource. I just want to point out that just because something has been done that way in the past doesn't mean they won't change it.

Pouakai
Apr 13, 2012, 03:25 PM
I would say though that Citrus is *probably* luxury, because we have Pigs and Crabs which are both most likely bonus, three bonus resources ain't exactly awesome unless they've changed how bonus resources can be used

Montov
Apr 13, 2012, 03:33 PM
With all those bonuses from new resources and religion, what would be the balancing act? More unhappiness for cities?

GenjiKhan
Apr 13, 2012, 03:37 PM
With all those bonuses from new resources and religion, what would be the balancing act? More unhappiness for cities?

There's no need to increase the Unhappiness per city . The balancing act will probably be the increase of faith points necessary to spawn Great Prophets,which will make that the Tall empires have more chance to get a religion than Wide empires .

nokmirt
Apr 13, 2012, 03:51 PM
There's no need to increase the Unhappiness per city . The balancing act will probably be the increase of faith points necessary to spawn Great Prophets,which will make that the Tall empires have more chance to get a religion than Wide empires .

With the way the AI acquires happiness, it won't hurt the devs to give us a few more happiness points to spread around, within reasonable balance. Really the AI has a huge advantage in that department. I am not sure if that has been reworked as far as the AI goes. I feel it should be to reduce AI city spamming, or at least make it so the AI picks better city locations.

Camikaze
Apr 13, 2012, 08:49 PM
They can't be strategic resources, because there is no quantity given in the image (as there is for strategic resources). They must either be bonus resources, or as seems more likely, luxuries.

As an idea, I think it'd be quite neat to have them as a strategic resource.

sumodaz
Apr 14, 2012, 12:43 AM
During the age of exploration scurvy was a big problem for European sailors trying to cross the great oceans of the world.

Only when the great British doctor James Lind discovered that citrus fruits were an effecient remedy for the disease, did the scurvy epidemic end:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/lind_james.shtml

It therefore make perfect sense to have citrus as a prerequisite resource for "blue water" navies :)

Which is where the Brits got their nickname 'limeys'.

elprofesor
Apr 14, 2012, 07:49 AM
...Combustable lemons unit potentially?

A more civ-like option than burning down your neighbour's house with those combustible lemons :mischief:

sumodaz
Apr 16, 2012, 04:34 AM
Just in case there were any further doubts i took the civ font and shrunk it down - fits perfectly.

http://www.nordicbear.com/images/civcitrus.jpg

Montov
Apr 16, 2012, 04:55 AM
With new hapiness bonuses from religion, espionage and mercentile CS, I think the new resources will be bonus resources.

CTH
Apr 16, 2012, 05:42 AM
Bonus resource, cant really see a reason why people would be more happy to have access to citrus than to, for example meat or bread....

Deggial
Apr 16, 2012, 06:14 AM
But don't you know: "Sour makes cheerful" - at leat, this is the direct translation of a german proverb. ;)

I don't think, there is an English equivalent, though. Maybe: "Happy lemon"? (Says leo.org)

Lord Olleus
Apr 16, 2012, 08:02 AM
Lemons were a luxury resource in late antiquity by the romans IIRC. Used them for exotic perfumes more than cooking.

AriochIV
Apr 16, 2012, 12:12 PM
Just in case there were any further doubts i took the civ font and shrunk it down - fits perfectly.
Which font is that, by the way?

KillingMeSoftly
Apr 16, 2012, 07:00 PM
I seriously doubt Citrus is going to be a new luxury resource. To me it seems more logical that it's a bonus resource like Bananas and all the other food-based resources

animalguy
Apr 16, 2012, 10:09 PM
if you look at the starting location you will see that there appears to be only one luxury resources from the base game (which I think is pearls, though it is a bit hard to tell) and while some starts will only give you one luxury resource it is far more common for the game to give you two luxury resources which leads me to believe that Citrus could quite possibly be a new luxury resource!

sumodaz
Apr 17, 2012, 12:21 AM
Which font is that, by the way?

I think 'Twentieth Century Light'. Its the same font they use throughout.

AriochIV
Apr 17, 2012, 02:04 AM
I think 'Twentieth Century Light'. Its the same font they use throughout.
Thanks.

headcase
Apr 17, 2012, 05:48 AM
that would be a cool strat, allowing you to build ships that are a little better and\or lower cost than the same kind of ship that doesn't need citrus. I would be all for this (although as said by others it's probably not in G+K vanilla).

Louis XXIV
Apr 17, 2012, 06:29 AM
if you look at the starting location you will see that there appears to be only one luxury resources from the base game (which I think is pearls, though it is a bit hard to tell) and while some starts will only give you one luxury resource it is far more common for the game to give you two luxury resources which leads me to believe that Citrus could quite possibly be a new luxury resource!

Which starting location?

ETA: I assume you mean the demo. Do all starting locations always get two luxuries? Also, keep in mind this is likely a custom scenario.