View Full Version : Concept for a C2C Climate System


DRJ
Apr 15, 2012, 09:30 AM
Concept for a use of the property system towards

rainfall & river patterns interacting with wind patterns interacting with ocean currents interacting with sealevel (bound water in ice) patterns that then interact with the rainfall patterns again.


1.

A modified "storm" (rainclouds) could be happening on land tiles.

It would increase the density of that tile and the tiles it surrounds.

A high density level favors forming of rivers which are not static anymore.

Density, like crime, could drip towards the sea tiles via an invisble height variable, so the rivers seem to be natural, though changing upon the landscape and sealevel.

The more density a tile gets, the more it changes status over time.

Lowest density is salt flats/dunes in warmer regions and barren in cooler climate.

Highest density is muddy & jungle in warmer climate and tundra & swamp in cooler climate.

Rainfall patterns will be able to change because the wind pattern changed because the ocean currents changed because the sealevel changed because some vulcanoes erupted (lowering gloabal temperature - a new variable) and because the axis of earth changes slightly back and forth over time (another to be implemented static variable, like latitude).

2.

wind patterns direct the rainfall.
(wind, like crime, drips over land tiles towards hills and mountains, where it accumulates and that favors a triggering of 'land storm' aka rainfall in front of ridges)
and the speed of ships.

3.

ocean currents direct the wind
as well as the some new static variables like and local seasonal effects because of the seasonal rotation of earth axis (jetstream/trade wind).

ocean currents tend to lose their rotation speed the closer they are to land ->
in middle of ocean the broadest currents, which are triggered to organize in maelstroms, appear.


4.

a new sealevel variable, dependent of vulcanic activity, longtime rotation of the axis of earth and perhaps other, yet to be introduced variables,
re-directs ocean currents.

If sealevel variable loweres, the new coastal lines will allow currents to change and bring density to other regions which will
produce ice age effects (more water bound in ice=less density more and cooler wasteland) and warmth period effects (if sealevel rises again).


The one problem I see here is that the new land would be lower than the old coast land which would be higher in relation to the new land. So a invisble variable like Height would help to cope with that.
The lower the sealevel gets, the more flat land has to become hill, in relation to the new coastline.

So for example you have a grassland coast that will stay flat tile once the sealevel lowered and a new terrain forms on the old coastal waters -- ice? in artic, salt marsh (same graphics like swamp maybe) in temperate and mangroves in tropical. Once the sealevel falls another tile short, the old salt flats would become grassland and the old grassland would become hills. Inland, the flats would stay flat like tableland. To avoid a "ring of hills" at the old coasts, some of the grasslands would not become hill, it may be a 50% chance. Rivers could also drip towards ocean by using the height variable, floating through the old coastal grasslands that didn't become hills into the sea.


Another variable that could and maybe even has to be introduced into this climate simulation would be the local saltlevel in the water as it drives the currents. Any ideas about that?


One thing that bothers me a bit is the spread of organic resources. They, somehow had to become dynamic resources as well, adapting to shifting landscapes.

Also the improvements of terrain. What happens to a farm when the grassland becomes swamp?

One thing would be that the more the game progresses the less would change per turn as the timeframe of the turn 1 year compared to 1000 would be like a brake for the earlier more frequent changes. If the start would be 1 Mio BC, by the time you get to 6000 BC you can get some constant agriculture going (maybe change the turn-costs for making improvements by relating it to the numbers of landscapeshifting effects active/turn) but of course it can be washed away by floods like in sumeria, or even like the black sea had its great flood. Early cities near the water? not so good idea maybe, although you might be spared. But building them in safe terrain with low density might not help them to grow fast... choices over choices^^ (being able to be killed by nature as a new optional... :rolleyes: feature hehe)

Please post ideas and suggestions so this can be discussed for planning of steps towards (all optional?) realization

Thunderbrd
Apr 15, 2012, 12:08 PM
I really like most of this. I had an idea before for how we could free up animals to be a bit more dynamic on the map. Very interesting concepts you're laying out all in all. My only concern would be the massive amount of data processing it would add... I turn storms off as they are already to help with the game speed.

Koshling
Apr 15, 2012, 12:54 PM
I really like most of this. I had an idea before for how we could free up animals to be a bit more dynamic on the map. Very interesting concepts you're laying out all in all. My only concern would be the massive amount of data processing it would add... I turn storms off as they are already to help with the game speed.

Anything that chnages domain ype is VERY expensive to process (water <-> land). Anything that changes trade routes (river movemn) is pretty expensive and should not happen frequently.

DRJ
Apr 15, 2012, 01:26 PM
The early times when the terrain changes frequently there won't be many trade routes but mostly nomad tribes.

The trade between them could be organized by hand to hand (trade possibility established with unit on unit), so the processing for normal trade routes would only be established once the game has become more and more static, which will make no need for reloading of "normal traderoutes" until one gets barter/trade tech at which time the process will be called the first time.

The approach here is to make what we can out of the limited RAM resources at every era.
As long as world is relatively unpopulated the RAM resources for later buildings, trade routes etc can be used to process the new variables I listed above. So if we can have it under full steam at all time without having it boil over thats the perfect situation I think. At least for Super Eternity, (right, Koshling? :D)

We could also fake the water becoming land process somehow by having a more or less predetermined min/max coastline upon map start, which would be able to look like water and have sea critters swimming on it but which is "land" in code, just shifting graphics.
Lot of ways to improvise there.

Acularius
Apr 15, 2012, 01:30 PM
How static could these changes be made, in terms of scenario creation and pre made maps?

I do enjoy such things as volcanoes already, but I am just curious on how many changes to 'Earth' it might create.

I must say that I find it intriguing. Although map creation is going to require MUCH more data mining. XD

MrAzure
Apr 15, 2012, 01:35 PM
I found something of interest.

Accurate Earth Map
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233586

This is the thread for the map and related features that are being used in my mod (World History Mod). As promised, it will be released in the coming days and the download will be inserted into this post.

Link to my mod development thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6473712

FEATURES

Best map graphics~ In every way, this should be the best looking map yet released, and much of the art is my work. One could not count the number of ongoing graphical improvements.
New, highly accurate 255x166 world map~ This map uses a projectionless interpretation of the world, to give near-perfect proportions.
New resources, terrains, features/forests and improvements~ Something like 85 resources, and more of everything else, but all of it sensible to some degree.
Wintermod~ Simulates winters
Icemod~ Simulates ice cover, including colder periods (ie Little Ice Age)
Floodmod~ Simulates flooding in at-risk regions
Geographic Simulation~ Active volcanoes and coral reefs.
Domestication~ The power to see a resource is held by the civ(s) that historically discovered it, and it is gradually spread/traded.
Other Changes~ Mountains are now passable to many units. Siege machinery will not be as mobile as in the past.

FUTURE/POSTPONED FEATURES:

Border Reform~ Borders do not go over water, though civs can still improve coastal resources. Now borders are more realistic and the seas are in fact "open."
Geographic Simulation~ Simulated forest industry with lumber mills- disappearance of forests, regrowth and lumber mill income adjustments
Other Changes~ All ships can travel over ocean, but those that are not ocean-ready take damage each turn (earlier ships with less health will die more quickly). Deserts and winters damage each turn, unless accustomed to it (Russia, Viking, desert civs, etc).

RELEASE TODO LIST

-orchard improvement (for cork, fruit)
-minor fixes to following resources: olives, bison, dates?, earth metals
-improve flood texture
-cleanup 20%

PATCH #1 TODO LIST

-finish domestication system 50%
-port colonization light forest graphic (currently using a fake)
-minor improvements to several resources
-border reform (borders only go over land, but one problem: city can't work tiles outside borders and I need help fixing that)

PATCH #2 TODO LIST

-animated goat, poultry, seal resource
-winter/desert combat
-highland/desert UP
-ship ocean travel mechanics
-improve orchard improvement
-lumbermill mechanics
-get supereruption to cause widespread famine

ESTIMATED RELEASE DATE: APRIL 2012

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS: HIGH
GAME REQUIREMENTS: BTS 3.19 ONLY

DRJ
Apr 15, 2012, 01:41 PM
How static could these changes be made, in terms of scenario creation and pre made maps?

I do enjoy such things as volcanoes already, but I am just curious on how many changes to 'Earth' it might create.

I must say that I find it intriguing. Although map creation is going to require MUCH more data mining. XD

Perhaps some changes like sealevel could be optional predetermined, having an illusion of a living map but it is bound on certain parameters determined at map start, making the whole thing more easy to process.

This approach (which I dislike a bit for random maps as I favour unpredictability there) may work for GEM where you could use the code of worldbuilder about which tiles are seen by player and which not to make another worldbuilder option that lets you define which tiles are changed with different sealevels and which not.

So you could for example predetermine the North Sea would become land if the sealevel drops.



@MrAzure Yeah I posted that a while ago but everybody had their hands on something else and I was not able to implement anything. Btw. would you like to help with this? I definitely need more help to picture this and organize possible code etc... Maybe I can't do anything besides this concept at all, because I have no idea how the property system works; once I understand that I maybe can lay some basic roots but I think that will depend on the real professionals^^

Hydromancerx
Apr 15, 2012, 07:20 PM
A modified "storm" (rainclouds) could be happening on land tiles.


One problem is the "Storms" that appear in the ocean are actually Terrain Features same as a Forest or Jungle. The problem is adding any weather to a layer of the map without replacing terrain features like the jungle or forest. It could possibly be done using units instead since they can appear on Terrain Features. The problems is not having units "attack" the weather.

DRJ
Apr 15, 2012, 07:40 PM
lol I know a unit attacking weather - it's called HAARP.
Or imagine the russian fighter jets that kill the clouds before parades are held.

But regarding that solution I like it!
If the rain(man) would just have to be a visble (storm graphic) spy type unit who carries no flag with it -
(can that stupid flag icon not be disabled or altered in any way?- I need to know for rescaling it, there must be an icon code somewhere, mustn't it?)
and the opportunity fire it lays on the landscape produces the density (much like fallout lol)

In fact maybe the combination of simulating climate processes with modified invisible units is quite charming and can interlock nicely with glacier tongues etc. Some of you may have seen the glacier tongues I artificially created in here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=319082&d=1334490036 It's only recreatable for screenshot purposes atm. ice"units" may change that. (these "icemen" will then smelter in the sun at some time^^)

AIAndy
Apr 16, 2012, 02:34 AM
One problem is the "Storms" that appear in the ocean are actually Terrain Features same as a Forest or Jungle. The problem is adding any weather to a layer of the map without replacing terrain features like the jungle or forest. It could possibly be done using units instead since they can appear on Terrain Features. The problems is not having units "attack" the weather.
Units don't really work for that kind of thing (due to the way they are displayed).
But it is possible to have more than one feature on a plot. That just requires some code changes that I want to do anyway to have properties influence plots (similar to the auto buildings/promotions that we have now).

Hydromancerx
Apr 16, 2012, 02:50 AM
That's great news AIAndy! :D It would be great to have a "Weather" layer to the map. :D

AIAndy
Apr 16, 2012, 03:06 AM
That's great news AIAndy! :D It would be great to have a "Weather" layer to the map. :D
Mind though that while I generally think dynamic climate and weather systems would be very interesting, there are quite some problems associated with it:

Improvements are restricted to certain terrain types and it is not quite clear how that would interact with changing those types semi-often
Climate simulations are expensive. The generic property system propagators are only solved once per turn but proper climate simulations would require solving on sub time steps to get proper results.
Having the ability to influence climate by certain actions can be used for war but it is very difficult to teach this to the AI
The map scripts need changing to get the information that is needed for proper climate simulations (several of them do a kind of climate simulation of their own)

DRJ
Apr 16, 2012, 05:25 AM
Mind though that while I generally think dynamic climate and weather systems would be very interesting, there are quite some problems associated with it:

Improvements are restricted to certain terrain types and it is not quite clear how that would interact with changing those types semi-often

Yes, improvements would be destroyed periodically. But consider this: in nomad time there are gatherers that move on with the nomad camp once it moves on. No gatherer improvements like now but just pure gathering (aside of trails that may be washed away by flooding perhaps). At about 8000-to 5000 BC the first farms will be in danger. Rightfully so. They haven't learned canal systems and stuff yet.
Turn cost for building improvements in that time could be associated to how much weather changes. So it would be cheaper to build an 'early' farm than a 'later' farm (a later farm will give more boni anyway thx to the techs like plough!).

For example:
around 6000 BC average of 20 weather (property) events in the world @ that turn? -4 turns for building a farm.
around 0AD 5 weather events /turn? -1turns for farm.


Climate simulations are expensive. The generic property system propagators are only solved once per turn but proper climate simulations would require solving on sub time steps to get proper results.

I made a sketch about how I see the processor load could be allotted -- the sketch is not very accurate and more like a wish, I guess but it may help seeking potentials.
I encourage to make own sketches so the idea of a constant high level of processor load throughout the game can be planned better.


Having the ability to influence climate by certain actions can be used for war but it is very difficult to teach this to the AI

Yes but as the climate effects will become seldom (until industrial age and a potential new climate change for pollution but that's not certain) there won't be much reason to have great AI coding for this. I mean yes, regarding weather warfare for example the US have plans to have some artificial storms hammer the venzualians coast for two weeks before marching in so the resistance can't be effective in all the mud but that's another thing for much later maybe.


The map scripts need changing to get the information that is needed for proper climate simulations (several of them do a kind of climate simulation of their own)


Can't the maps climate system be used for general manifestation of a map and the new weather system pick up from there on from turn1? I don't see why that would contradict. After all the different simulations would complement each other, leading to interesting effects.

Koshling
Apr 16, 2012, 06:37 AM
Have you looked at CPU load while running C2C in Performance Monitor? It slams one core totally (100% usage throughout the AI turn) already. Without making things multi-threaded (hard in general) anything added is longer turns, since there is precisely zero slack.

DRJ
Apr 16, 2012, 06:52 AM
Ok, I haven't done that yet (how can I run it with a performance monitor?).

Well I know weather would come at a certain cost. All I wanted to picture was that by making some processed factors like traderoutes start using process time only in later ages instead of from the very beginning there would be a little room to fill for weather system, or at least the increase of turntimes wouldn't be so dramatically.

Basically, in later game there should be no or just a 10 % increase with weather. For early game, well I wouldn't bother a few more secs per turn as thx to your optimizations, Koshling, my treshold of frustration about turn times has been reduced to zero atm, so I am pretty open for longer turntimes (as in combination with autoendturns this might give the feeling of a 'living world' in a turn-based game, something civilization has never had before and which was my idea in the first place)

Koshling
Apr 16, 2012, 10:51 AM
Ok, I haven't done that yet (how can I run it with a performance monitor?).


I just meant start task manager, and select the 'performance tab' to see CPU usage by core. My point however, was that C2C already fully itlises the one thread it has with no slack. That's not to say we can't have background threads processing on-going things like climate models, it's just not easy because the whole foundation is built for a single-threaded environment.

DRJ
Apr 16, 2012, 11:02 AM
Yeah background threads, that sounds nice. How are they established?
I was thinking if there can't be a power transformator module, that converts from single threaded into multithreaded like co-current flow becoming single-phase alternating current...

btw once you're asked by someone what youre doing as a profession you can say
"I'm a backdoorground thread man" :cool: ^^


EDIT: so maybe the Y axis of my sketch from above should not have % of processor load
but turn loading time instead -- what the sketch could provide would be an example for a strategic oversight of different evolving factors during a game that allows to compose relatively average loading turns throughout the game.

Koshling
Apr 16, 2012, 11:18 AM
I was thinking if there can't be a power transformator module, that converts from single threaded into multithreaded like co-current flow becoming single-phase alternating current...

How shall I put this....
lol

DRJ
Apr 16, 2012, 11:28 AM
hey, come on! now you're mean :cry:

How on earth shall I know how all of this stuff really works? The knowledge of this is slowly soaking through the soil of my god-mode-concepting-ignorance.

Because as we say in Germany: "Hilf dir selbst, dann hilft dir Gott"
-- help yourself, then god will help you^^

rightfuture
Apr 16, 2012, 12:21 PM
I found something of interest.

Accurate Earth Map
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233586

[/SPOILER]

me too :)

I've talked about kevinman4400's accurate earth map, and world history mod projects a bunch in the C2C forums. I think basic modeling of weather, since it affects history so much, would be a nice major focus for future modding. I like the idea of using basic fractal math (like the terrain scripts) to simulate simple moving storm fronts. Gradual climate shifts also radically altered human cultures. Check out the fall of the Mayan civilization for one.

Also note
C2C -Weather discussion
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=439763
I have tried to start ongoing discussion on weather before.

I mention the Ice Age script for receding glaciers from FFH -Fall from Heaven mod every so often. it could be adapted without terrible effort I think. Sea levels in receding Ice Age times changed a good bit also, even in the last 14,000 years; Has anyone noticed how many underwater prehistoric city discoveries have been made in the last 10 years(from Egypt, Japan, Black Sea, North Sea, Great Lakes, etc.) ? Google it and you'd be suprised.

Weather and disease are among the biggest things that have historically shaped the development of human civilization. It think it is well worth the time for the C2C modders to consider focusing on them after after recent plans pan out.
Can't wait to see a little development on those in C2C . Modders please consider making it part of your near-future plans. :)

Like DRJ I think it is worth some simple modeling and performance cost.

AIAndy
Apr 19, 2012, 08:24 AM
I have thought about it a bit. While quite far reaching, so not implemented soon, the following would be quite interesting:

Map scripts are reduced to merely provide a height map and some global variables like starting sea level, global temperature and variables that govern summer/winter temperature distribution.

Then starting from that base temperature distribution the sequence of temperature, summer and winter wind, ocean current is simulated for 2 or 3 passes (wind and current influence temperature, hence multiple passes).
Based on that humidity and rain patterns are calculated and with the rain patterns rivers and lakes.

The interesting thing now would be to introduce biomes.
Biomes get an XML description that specifies:

Limits on temperature, humidity, height, latitude and probably some other things.
Valid terrains, features and resources and their occurance chances separately defined for border plots of the biome and inner plots.
Animals and their occurances. Animals also try to stay within biomes which are valid for them.

Starting with a random plot, a random biome that is valid for that plot is chosen and then extended until all plots next to the biome are not valid for that biome (or already assigned). Continue with a random unassigned plot until all plots are assigned.
Then assign valid terrains and sometimes features and resources to all plots (both the biome restrictions and the restrictions on the terrain/feature/resource itself apply).

In the game itself the sea level might change or local and global temperature distribution due to e.g. ice age, pollution or volcanos.
The climate is recalculated regularly and if a plot no more fits the biome it is assigned to, it is assigned to another adjacent biome if there is a valid one or forms a new biome. Empty biomes are removed.
If either of those requires a terrain/feature/resource change, that is not done at once but slowly transitions.

Biomes might also get names (maybe the first to discover it names it?).

T C
Apr 19, 2012, 12:44 PM
That does indeed sound very interesting. What do you think the effects on performance would be?

AIAndy
Apr 19, 2012, 12:58 PM
That does indeed sound very interesting. What do you think the effects on performance would be?
Depends on the wind, current and temperature simulation, the rest is not that expensive.
You can make that very expensive but since we don't need accuracy you can also apply some fast approximations. And incremental calculations during the turns will be cheaper than the first time calculation.

Hydromancerx
Apr 19, 2012, 02:13 PM
Here are some helpful resources I have used in the past.

Holdridge Life Zones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdridge_life_zones

Köppen Climate Classification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification

Hydromancerx
Sep 14, 2012, 05:37 AM
I think the sea currents and wind patterns idea should be revisited. Especially if we are thinking about adding a weather layer to the game.

Dancing Hoskuld
Sep 14, 2012, 06:25 PM
I think the sea currents and wind patterns idea should be revisited. Especially if we are thinking about adding a weather layer to the game.

Both would affect sailing and movement. A big reason for the Norse getting to Iceland was the current that went one way was near by the wind that went the other way.

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 12:42 AM
A weather system? IIRC Afforess made the storm clouds an optional that was off by default since the constant change of clouds crashed even the best of systems on the worst occasions.

primem0ver
Sep 16, 2012, 01:40 AM
The development of a climate system is already in the planning stages. Most if not all of the things you describe are part of the GeoRealism mod component (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=474613) I want to develop. If we incorporate weather systems into C2C then the GeoRealism mod will take advantage of that as well, using global winds and currents to determine where major hurricane and high pressure dry air systems will go, affecting the things you mention.

A major part of this mod component will be plot statistics that are not currently part of a plot that are consistent with your desires. Among those will be:


altitude
average humidity
average temperature
annual precipitation
vegetation cover
uplift rate (rate of altitude increase due to geological factors)*
denudation rate (rate at which altitude is reduced due to erosion)*
average wind speed
average wind direction


* since these values will only affect the making of the map, they will disappear in the actual game.

The only thing that may or may not matter that hasn't been included in my envisioned model is sea level. That could easily be changed, but honestly during the time scope of this game, sea level changes will occur very rarely if at all since changes of a couple hundred feet take thousands of years or more. This will not significantly change the map in the 55000 or so years that take place in the game. A few coastal plains might appear or disappear but not much else.

Thunderbrd
Sep 16, 2012, 01:44 AM
Amazing work Prim! Looking forward to what you come up with :D

Hydromancerx
Sep 16, 2012, 03:55 AM
@primem0ver

You should talk with Ori. I think he has the global warming linked up with the air pollution and terrain can chnage, including the oceans drying up.

Also you should double check all the terraforming stuff since that also alters the terrain.

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 03:59 AM
A few coastal plains might appear or disappear but not much else.

If you get the code working to let a plot type change without crashing the game, let me know and I can get the fusion nukes working again. They were disabled since the plot type change crashed the game.

Hydromancerx
Sep 16, 2012, 04:00 AM
Here is what I was talking about ...

Sounds good.

Terrain
Ice -> Permafrost -> Tundra -> Muddy -> Lush -> Grasslands -> Plains -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Marsh -> Muddy -> Lush -> Grasslands -> Plains -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Barren -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Rocky -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Polar Coast -> Coast -> Tropical Coast -> Salt Flats

Polar Ocean -> Ocean -> Tropical Ocean -> Tropical Coast -> Salt Flats

As you can see if the whole planet turns into Venus the land becomes Dunes and the oceans become Salt Flats.

Terrain Features

Name = Disappears At
Forest = Desert
Bamboo = Desert
Savanna = Desert
Jungle = Desert
Tall Grass = Desert
Swamp = Plains
Bog = Plains
Kelp = Salt Flats
Coral Reef = Salt Flats
Icebergs = Ocean or Coast

Not sure how to simulate sea level rise. Perhaps when you loose the Polar Ocean to Temperate Ocean the sea level will raise an add a coastal tile of the same type to the land tile adjacent to them.

Pollution Buildings

Here are all the Pollution buildings and their values.

100 = Light Smog
200 = Moderate Smog
250 = Minor Global Warming
300 = Minor Ozone Depletion
400 = Acid Rain
500 = Heavy Smog
550 = Moderate Global Warming
600 = Moderate Ozone Depletion
700 = Coral Reef Bleaching
800 = Major Ozone Depletion
850 = Major Global Warming
900 = Toxic Atmosphere
1000 = Blackened Skies

Use this as a guide when ramping up the effects of global warming.

LumenAngel
Sep 16, 2012, 04:18 AM
But that only for air pollution.
Water pollution can kill forest, grass and all others vegetation with a Tundra -> Permafrost ; Grasslands -> Plains -> Barren ; Marsh -> Muddy -> Barren ...
Taking both into account can be a challenge

Thunderbrd
Sep 16, 2012, 04:25 AM
If you get the code working to let a plot type change without crashing the game, let me know and I can get the fusion nukes working again. They were disabled since the plot type change crashed the game.

Were those your designs? If so, I will have some things to discuss with you regarding biological and chemical warfare and Afflictions soon.

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 04:31 AM
Were those your designs? If so, I will have some things to discuss with you regarding biological and chemical warfare and Afflictions soon.

Indeed it is, the first version was one of the first modmods for RoM.

Thunderbrd
Sep 16, 2012, 04:34 AM
I'm a fan!

But I'd like your help to rework the chem and bio weapons. Please review the Introduction to the Combat Mod posts. I've got a lot more info to put in those and another couple of parts to add but its a start. Once you've read those, you might have an idea where I'm headed there.

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 04:38 AM
will do.

Faustmouse
Sep 16, 2012, 02:04 PM
If you get the code working to let a plot type change without crashing the game, let me know and I can get the fusion nukes working again. They were disabled since the plot type change crashed the game.

Wait, what about the Eden Project? I think in my last game (V24) it worked very well without crashes... and there was also a version (between 20 and 24) in which the fusi-nukes worked correctly. I was wondering why they didn't change the terrain in V24 anymore...

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 02:21 PM
Wait, what about the Eden Project? I think in my last game (V24) it worked very well without crashes... and there was also a version (between 20 and 24) in which the fusi-nukes worked correctly. I was wondering why they didn't change the terrain in V24 anymore...

Yea, during the initial testing back during the RoM days, there was always a very slim chance of crashing. AIAndy or Koshling (I forget who) took a closer look and found out that when it did crash, the game was toast inside and out and decided to stop the fusion nukes from changing the landscape.

ls612
Sep 16, 2012, 02:28 PM
Yea, during the initial testing back during the RoM days, there was always a very slim chance of crashing. AIAndy or Koshling (I forget who) took a closer look and found out that when it did crash, the game was toast inside and out and decided to stop the fusion nukes from changing the landscape.

Did they ever figure out what was causing the crash?

Civ Fuehrer
Sep 16, 2012, 02:30 PM
Did they ever figure out what was causing the crash?

Seeing as how they never enabled it, I'd say no.

Thunderbrd
Sep 16, 2012, 08:54 PM
Koshling said it was something to do with trade route changes that the game expects never to take place. He also said it was something he would eventually need to address anyhow but that its terribly complex.

ls612
Sep 17, 2012, 03:42 PM
Koshling said it was something to do with trade route changes that the game expects never to take place. He also said it was something he would eventually need to address anyhow but that its terribly complex.

Well, I have some ideas for the ANM, so if we can delay this fix until after Multi-Maps that would be great. Also, that reminds me that I should PM Civ Fuehrer these ideas, now that he is returning to civ modding.