http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/170/hofgauntlet.jpgWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/rules.php)BEFORE playing!

Settings:


Victory Condition: Diplomacy (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Chieftain
Map Size: Standard
Map Type: Any **
Speed: Standard
Leader: Any **
Opponents: Any
Version: SV8 (1.0.1.511)
Date: 16th April to 1st May 2012
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker

** Remember, only those accepted by HOF

Bit of an experiment. If this turns out okay, we try using "Any" some more.

Suggestions should be posted to the Gauntlet Suggestions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=445313) thread.

Oh boy......... any leader + any map type? Hehehe Im thinking Siam, Greece or Egypt for the win.

Edit: Decided to go Egypt/Pangaea for my first game aiming for a super ICS empire and I get Skilldorado right out of the gate (Turn 6), 312 Gold? Sounds perfect for my first worker.

I think that's kind of boring :(

The interesting part of this is that many new setup will be created for HoF.

The interesting part of this is that many new setup will be created for HoF.
yes, but on the other hand, gauntlets are thought to be a competition and map type as well as leader choice influence the outcome significantly. So the question is: Are the results still comparable in a meaningful way? I doubt that.

of course the results are comparable.
if someone chooses tiny islands or england, they're not going to win, but we can still compare vs them.

siam is the obvious choice.

of course the results are comparable.
siam is the obvious choice.
I agree, but then you can change any to Siam right away. (Might not be Greece interesting too?) :) The better players would prob beat me in 9 of 10 tries anyway, but I still think, removing
"any" would yield better results.

Think of this as an exercise in decision making. Siam and Greece are obvious contenders and so is Egypt for shaving time off of NC/UN and Im sure someone could find a way to make other leaders work, just not as well. The goal this time around is not so much 'fastest win with everything picked for you' but 'fastest win according to your own play style'.

The interesting part of this is that many new setup will be created for HoF.:D

yes, but on the other hand, gauntlets are thought to be a competition and map type as well as leader choice influence the outcome significantly. So the question is: Are the results still comparable in a meaningful way? I doubt that.
Comparability doesn't matter that much for gauntlets, just winning. Everyone has the same opportunity to pick the best civ and map. The only question is which is best. ;)

*SKRen facepalms with fury of a thousand misclicks*
It wasn't a winner and it crashed but despite going though the whole game, I stupidly clicked Return to menu instead of 'One more turn'... And just to note, ICS Egypt is way scarier than ICS Gandhi could ever be 20ish cities at 7+ :c5citizen: and still had over 60 :c5happy: Burial Tombs are sooo overpowered or it could be that I was playing on Chieftain :P. Also has anyone noticed that Meritocracy+Forbidden Palace+Aristocracy is essentially a -25% to unhappy across you total population? That's a 33% increase in population support :D

All right, Ill kick this off with a T209 Finish. Settings were Oval(High Sea Level iirc, And despite picking 5Billion years, I landed in the super hilly zone which worked out in my favor at the end.) and Leader was Ramkhamhaeng.

I gotta say I took a lot of pointers from The_Pilgrims Sub 200 Science Deity game. I expanded fast to four cities. I started nestled around a mountain cluster but had several choice spots around to place cities and got my second city out on T21 and my 4th out on T40. From there I took all but BW of the Ancient techs and primed Theology, Civil Service and Compass. From there I was able to set up a full wave of RAs starting on T75 and the final one a bit delayed at T82.

The second wave was less glorious. At first Gandhi and Hiawatha were guarded towards me for being a possible threat, so with Hiawatha being the warmonger and Gandhi the peaceful one, I signed Hiawatha first and Gandhi last (Mostly cause he was broke). While waiting for the RAs to mature however I found a way to fix Gandhi's attitude. See I had built a trireme and scouted clockwise only to spy a barb camp with a settler. Well there was only one person it could belong to so I quickly freed him and 2 turns later Gandhi was grateful. Gandhi was everyone friend as well so I befriended him too. So now Hiawatha is my friend, Gandhi is my friend as are Washington, Wu Zeitan and Genghis Khan. Elizabeth WAS my friend until she decided she wanted to build one of the wonders I built a century ago and denounces me. Germany has always been on guard but suddenly hes on my case too. And thats where it stayed till the end of the game. So my second wave of RAs ended up being only 5 total and spread out over T113-T130.

My 3rd wave consisted of 3 RAs but really that was all I needed, actually two is all I needed. Made the two that mattered on T158 & T159

I ended up allying a Maritime CS pretty early and nabbed a Cultural and another Maritime mid game. Those helped a ton.

Finally I have come away from this with some big pieces of advice:

Build the National Monument, in your Capital fairly early. Also be sure to take the Freedom opener after you get Rationalism. It can wait if you get Patronage after.
Make sure your first 7 Great People are Scientists. Assuming you did like me and went for a 4 city start, you should get 4 in you capital and 1 from each of the small ones. IMMEDIATELY after you pop the 4th GS from your Capital, switch over to GE production(Unless you grabbed 2 GEs from HS/Liberty. I went GE/GS so I needed the GE.) Either way the timing is pretty close but doable either way. I suppose double GE is a safer bet though in which case keep on building a 5th GS. You will need and get it in time.
If you hard Tech Refrigeration, Combustion and Flight(Preferably in that order for the best medians) you can bulb the rest.


And that's it. If I had one thing to regret it was not being aggressive enough in loaning out my GPT to get the last 2 waves of RAs done faster. I know I could have hit sub 200. I definitely would have if Germany and England weren't being such prudes. I'm also bummed I missed the last city-state.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=319227&stc=1&d=1334657479
17/18 is not bad :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=319228&stc=1&d=1334657479
Final shot of my Empire


Edit: Well ****, I used an invalid map type... Well I guess its an excuse to get a sub200 win :D

There is no obvious choice here, France is probably best. Arabia, Persia, Siam and Egypt may be good too. Anyway, it's possible to play good with all civs, map is more important.

there are a few good choices.
siam just seems the most straightforward given the natural boosts from city states and wats via legalism. unfortunately my play time is limited these weeks so i may not get in many attempts.

Hey guys, long-time lurker first-time submitter here: Siam, Lakes, Turn 190. Kept re-starting until I got an awesome map (the hard way since there's no random seed) expanded to 4 cities with 12 luxuries very quickly, then tried to play in a very similar way to vexing and khrax.

I've probably looked at a dozen different games from each of you, and vexing's articles on research agreements and the in-depth Gmajor 5 (Emperor, Epic, Arabia, culture) game really helped too. If I only I had kept up, I would've realized about the wat/legalism trick :0 Hopefully y'all won't crush me too badly, and I can start competing soon :P

One thing I'm always confused about in the midgame (between education and scientific method, say) is when I should be buying RAs and when I should be getting city states(I always go for maritime first). Any tips?

Good game, Voltaire. I usually start with one cultural city-state as early as possible, then maritime if I can afford it. You should reach three RA waves. I have tried four waves in some games, but I find that a fourth very early wave is just not worth it, it is better to buy city states in the early game. As you say, timing for RAs is very important and not so easy to handle. After playing a lot Civ V, I have got a "feeling" for when to start the waves. The feeling gets better with more experience. I try to start early with the RAs, but not so early that I don't reach astronomy as median. Second wave should have at least scientific theory as median, and third wave at least biology. This is a bit different on other speeds.

I don't think the wat/legalism trick is that good. You must build temples which cost turns, you must choose legalism instead of another policy, and you don't always get legalism when you want it, sometimes you must wait a little.
If you don't expand so fast it is very good of course, but if you choose 4 or 5 cities NC start and expand rapidly, the cities will build universities quite fast anyway.

The +50% city state bonus is nice, but as I see it, 2 culture per city per turn is a more significant boost, especially in the early game.

I don't think the wat/legalism trick is that good. You must build temples which cost turns, you must choose legalism instead of another policy, and you don't always get legalism when you want it, sometimes you must wait a little.
If you don't expand so fast it is very good of course, but if you choose 4 or 5 cities NC start and expand rapidly, the cities will build universities quite fast anyway.

Agree with this. I will make a go with France first. Pangea.

I'm trying a Monty/Lakes run atm :D. Later I may go for a Alexander/Great Plains run as well.

Thanks a ton for the advice, Khrax, but to clarify: the median of your first wave of RAs should be astronomy? If so I've been getting mine waaaay too early--mine are always currency or compass.

I don't think the wat/legalism trick is that good. You must build temples which cost turns, you must choose legalism instead of another policy, and you don't always get legalism when you want it, sometimes you must wait a little.
If you don't expand so fast it is very good of course, but if you choose 4 or 5 cities NC start and expand rapidly, the cities will build universities quite fast anyway.

I think the trick is pretty useful; in terms of hammers the temples cost 60 less than the wats but have to be finished by education, so I'd call that a wash. In terms of timing I bet you could line up legalism with education with the extra culture from the temples and possibly their artists and choosing between buffed maritime or buffed culture city-states. In terms of social policies, I always start with tradition anyway, so the bonus from the temples (and the faster wats) makes up for one social policy I think.

Where you come out particularly ahead is in the science and gpps from the faster wats--7 turns in my capital, but an average of 14 or so everywhere else means (for my empire) a bonus of 650 beakers, possibly even more if you get to education faster than turn 82 and/or have more population and less production than I did. 12 pop/32 prod in cap, 8/14, 6/12, 6/8 elsewhere.

S.K. Ren, I was so tempted to go for Monty as well because Lakes is my favorite map--all that fresh water means a ton of population!

I played Egypt, badly. I spent a lot of time REXing and not enough building wonders. I miss-timed a few free bulbs and didn't get my specialists going soon enough. Also, being my first Diplo Victory attempt in forever, I skipped the first vote, delaying my victory until 1958.
What I did right: using Great Plains to weaksauce England and bribing Mongolia to pick fights with the top dog, America. I made LOTS of money fast, and used my vast wealth to ally every CS there was, which meant I didn't have to field my own units. I used a war chariot for fog busting and barb hunting. I have mixed feelings about this unit - when the terrain favors it, it's very good. Not so much otherwise. Better than what it replaces though.

To be exact, ideally the median should be between compass and education. (Compass is a little bit cheaper.) If you have got iron working, masonry, currency, civil service, theology and optics, you have four available techs and the median is maximized.

Sorry, that last message was completely wrong, mixed the major and the minor. Yes, you should reach astronomy as median on first wave.

Here is a start i wanted to try since a couple of weeks. 4 cities set-up as fast as possible. 2 worker bought. Keeping gold for classical wave of RAs. Libraries hard built everywhere, i have finished Liberty at same turn than last libraries made. Result : NC at turn 51 with 4 cities :eek:

I don't know if it's good i never seen someone doing this so far.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa413/Tabarnak2/Screenshot-22_04_20121_11_08PM.jpg

Maybe i can keep the GL for Astronomy?

That's what i've done. GL for Astro. And Oracle for rationalism in the middle of my 1st wave of RAs. I think it's a great run so far. A 3rd wave of 6 RAs will begin to mature in 10 turns(started them very early) and i hope i will reach Globalization with a ge ready for the UN.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa413/Tabarnak2/Screenshot-22_04_20124_31_13PM.jpg

I thought, one couldn't hurry the UN with a GE!

The UN can be rushed. Utopia, the Apollo Project and I think the Manhattan Project too ca not.

Finished at 186. Had to wait 9 turns for last RA to be completed before starting the UN. Capital 23 :c5citizen: with 1 ge gave me 4 turns left before countdown.

I may have to join you in trying France. So far most of my games have either had crappy capital starts or I get DoWed by jealous AIs. Still I once got lucky with 2 Culture ruins before turn 10. I think I had my second city by turn 12 :D Hmm maybe I'll try China for giggles.

I may have to join you in trying France. So far most of my games have either had crappy capital starts or I get DoWed by jealous AIs. Still I once got lucky with 2 Culture ruins before turn 10. I think I had my second city by turn 12 :D Hmm maybe I'll try China for giggles.

You can automatically get a free city around turn 12 with France :D

I'll definitely be doing France next. With China though you will have no shortage of money starting out. I was looking to finish my current game around T192ish but got greedy since I wanted to go for a winning time. GL went on T52 which was a shocker. Also I have explored almost everywhere and still have yet to find the 7th AI, that screwed over my RA plans since I waited till turn 90 to make my RAs mostly due to wanting to set up a strong median for my first wave. IF, and this is a big IF, if you can get two full strong waves starting preferably in the 70s, a Sub 150 win looks very possible.

Edit: Found the 7th AI, turns out it was France. They're the ones who sniped the GL too. Found them tucked on a peninsula behind Harun, grrr.

a Sub 150 win looks very possible.

Globalization in 140 turns? Good luck. Sub 175 is more realist.

Globalization in 140 turns? Good luck. Sub 175 is more realist.

Haha yeah. Really what would have to happen is you would need to get 2 culture ruins (France only needs 1) and a +1 Pop ruin so you could start building settlers super early AND plant your 2nd asap since its only 35 Culture to the second policy, that second culture ruin would get you there in an instant. Then you would need 1400 gold minimum (probably more, but doable with enough rich AI's and resources.) by turn 70, get a full wave of RAs not to mention build the NC super early, probably rush buying the 4th Library and hard building a worker. After that It would mean finishing Education, Chivalry and Astronomy by turn 100 as well as finishing Liberty for the first GE since it should finish before Hagia so you can bulb PT. You would also have to pre build and hope Oracle and GL aren't built and time them to get Astronomy and Rationalism opener then have at least 2450 gold (Doable as China) ready to start the second wave immediately.

Like I said, its a big IF. Actually its more of an IFF :)

I really liked my last approach. I used a ge from Liberty to rush the NC at turn 51. That way i could clear in a decent time some medieval techs and reached PT in time for my 1st wave of RAs(signed first one at turn 51) around turn 80.

I kept the GL for Astronomy and Oracle for Rationalism on same turn for 2 last RAs form first wave.

The problem is that 2 civs hadn't enough money for an early 2nd wave when the time had come. It reflected later when i had to wait 9 turns before reching Globalization while all my cities were put on idle.

i can't imagine getting enough gold over 30 rounds to manage with such an early 2 waves, and you're going to have a hard time producing enough scientists anyway.

As China in my last playthrough I had 2000+ gold by turn 70 and ~3000 by turn 90. Having a GA gpt of ~50 that early is amazing :D With 4 cities you are getting 12(3 per city)gpt raw over any there comparable civ at that moment due to paper makers. Add in a well rivered start and you'll have no troubles with gold. As anyone else but china you're looking at a total of only 360 gold lost over 30 turns which isn't that much.

As anyone else but china you're looking at a total of only 360 gold lost over 30 turns which isn't that much.

it's a little less than that, at chieftain maintenance costs are 2/3rds

Hey Tabarnak,
I really liked your Liberty GE for NC rush idea. So I stole it. :)
At turn 54 I have a great 4 city start with both GL (took Civil Service) and NC. I also see a great fifth city with tons of food and luxes. Khan will be annoyed when I nab it, but I'm already denounced by my Chinese neighbour to the west for impinging on her territory, so what's one more? hopefully I can execute the RAs and the diplo well enough to get a decent finish.

Hey Tabarnak,
I really liked your Liberty GE for NC rush idea. So I stole it. :)
At turn 54 I have a great 4 city start with both GL (took Civil Service) and NC. I also see a great fifth city with tons of food and luxes. Khan will be annoyed when I nab it, but I'm already denounced by my Chinese neighbour to the west for impinging on her territory, so what's one more? hopefully I can execute the RAs and the diplo well enough to get a decent finish.

Good. Ideas are made to be stolen :lol:

Just wandering if you will get enough :c5gold: for RAs since you gonna surely pay a 100 :c5gold: penalty for the rest of the game unless you deliberately wait for them to enter the medieval era...in my game they entered at best around turn 100. I remember a civ that entered this era only around turn 140 :eek::cry:

I got enough gold to make six classical RAs which I paid the 100 gold penalty on most of, if not all of them. they are resolving turns 94, 105, 108, 109, 114, 117. The first has already resolved, I'm at turn 97, and have renewed it to resolve at turn 125 (first one of second wave). I don't have enough gold to fund seven RAs. But I seem to be doing OK. I have Education done, finished Hanging Gardens in Paris, finished HS in City#2 for a GE, saving it for PT in six turns. I want to time PT to use the GS for Astromomy, and then finish off Oracle to get Rationalism. that should be around T110 I think. It would be nice to get both PT and Rationalism before T105, but I don't think it's possible at this point in my game.
I guess my first RA wave was too early according to Khrax since my median is below Astronomy.

It's important with lots of food and lots of hammers to do a very good game. Early maritime city-states can be extremely nice. If you have plenty of food and hammers in your cities it is very possible to do the first wave before turn 70 and reach astronomy as median without using any great persons. Before turn 80 is often more realistic. If I reach astronomy as median for all the RAs in first wave, the rest of the game will often almost play itself.

I like to save all great persons to the endgame even it is tempting to use some of them early. It can seem very nice to get a wonder or a tech fast, but I think it is often not worth it because you really need great people in the endgame. I admit that the NC idea seems nice, but I am anyway a bit sceptical to using a GE for it.

One thing about RAs: In my opinion they must come when they must come, and when playing at low levels you have to pay the extra 100 gold (or 10 + 4 gpt) all the time. You need a strong economy and big cities so you can afford it. You cannot wait with going into new eras and you cannot wait with the RAs if you really want a good time. That is my opinion. In my games I usually can afford buying 1-2 workers early, buying at least 2-3 city states early, three waves with 5-7 RAs in each and paying 100 extra gold for most of them. The first wave is usually the most difficult one, but if you only get 2-3 RAs here it can anyway be a very good game. The two last waves are the most critical ones.

I find important to not wait for too long for first wave of RAs because the AI has often the bad habit to go bankrupt a bit before turn 100 and can take many many turns before accumulating :c5gold: again.

I tried another game this afternoon(i ragequit because of bad AI personnalities) and found civs with only 1 gpt after only 30 turns...my submitted game was far better than that(like over 5-6 gpt for everyone or close). I don't know if i will submit another one but if i will try to send a sub 175 turns game if possible..and if AIs really want to collaborate for this project :)

hmm, with a little tweaking I was able to get PT done T102 for Astronomy, and Oracle done T104 for Rationalism. just one turn before the second RA of wave one hit. This may end up being my best Diplo game yet.

Even if they go bankrupt I don't think it is good to start too early with RAs. Because they are not worth the money if the median is too low. And if the median is low on first wave it will normally be low on the next waves too. One must be prepared to pay RAs for some of the AI

Found another interesting map. This time, i started my first wave of RAs 2 turns later(86) :p Allied a maritime cs after 2 workers bought(again, similar to last try).

Now i have much more :c5gold: for another massive wave. Education at turn 76, PT turn 81. Astro/rationalism going for turn 87(similar to last game). Used a ge for NC at turn 48. I just always feel that's the best plan for my playstyle.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa413/Tabarnak2/Screenshot-26_04_20122_46_25AM.jpg

Going to be a nice entry. Electricity turn 139 without using a single Oxford, scientific rev. or a gs at all. I have 16 techs left and can get 15 free ones : 6 gs, 6 RAs(third wave will mature from turn 148 to turn 153), 2 from policy and 1 from Oxford. A ge will also appear at turn 153(with a last gs). I will probably finish below 170 here.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa413/Tabarnak2/Screenshot-26_04_20124_44_03AM.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa413/Tabarnak2/Screenshot-26_04_20124_44_53AM.jpg

wow, nice game Tabarnak. I'm now at T144 and just got Electricity, but had to use a GS to get it. looks like you're one GS ahead of me at T139 too.

Finished at 168 :)

nice - pretty tough to beat! at least I won't be :)

T192 for me. I didn't get Globalization till T171. I'm starting to see that it's very important to prioritize getting GSs out as soon as possible across multiple cities. I also didn't get my GE done in time, had to hard build UN for quite a few turns till my GE was ready. I need to designate one city to make sure the GE gets out on time (or work it in tandem with a GS in the capital maybe). I had 17 RAs complete without a single cancellation (only needed 16 to get to Globalization though).

I signed 3 waves of RAs. 1st wave from turn 56 to 61(signed 2 of them on same turn by mistake), 2nd wave from 87 to 93 and 3rd wave from 118 to 125(forgot to resign last one for 3 turns but 5 RAs were enough anyway) for a total of 7+7+6 = 20.

are people still thinking france?
i think siam has a lot more potential, but france cuts down on luck. i submitted a game with each of them, as it was i finished earlier with siam.

i think askia has a shot too, though i didn't have time to try with him. 120 gold for camps = nice.

@vexing: My best attempts have been with Siam and I agree, Siam has more potential but France plays a more stable game. France opens up Tabarnak's Liberty GE for NC style, which requires you to finish the HS for a GE in time for PT and then earn a final GE through GPP for the UN. Siam needs an early culture ruin but allows for the Wat+legalism trick and since you almost have to hard build the NC yourself you only need two GE, so overall you can get more GS with Siam, not to mention the better city state bonuses. Am I missing some important factors?

I feel like Askia would be viable in a larger or slower map, as there would be more camps/movement turns for the units and on a larger map you could actually kill off/puppet a civ or two and not endanger your waves of RAs.

if this were marathon askia would be king for sure.

i don't think using a GE for NC is optimal. i think you just need to wait for a strong start where it can be hard built in about 10 turns.

i don't think using a GE for NC is optimal. i think you just need to wait for a strong start where it can be hard built in about 10 turns.

The only purpose of finishing the NC very early is to be able to get enough raw beakers for a very early 1st wave of RAs with for early Education(and HS for PT in time), GL for astro, Oracle for rationalism, etc. Everything needs to land perfectly. Otherwise i don't see how a ge for NC can be good. At least for chieftain, where food and pop are king.

I didn't try with Siam.

i went with a 2 wave approach.
with some good timing siam can get all the way to scientific theory from its classical wave...

This gauntlet is now closed.

Results:

G-Minor XXVII (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/gauntlet.php?show=minor&gauntlet=43) - Diplomacy, Chieftain, Standard, Standard
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/gold.png1st khrax -1000 AD T-160
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/silver.png2nd vexing - 1020 AD T-162 3900 points
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/bronze.png3rd morrg - 1020 AD T-162 3728 points

Well done all, this was a well participated gauntlet as well :goodjob:

i'm not sure why this submission didn't make the list?
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=3019

regarding this one, i personally went for 4 cities, and just 2 waves of RAs. i delayed the GL for education, and that let my classical RAs get me through scientific theory with siam, and close with france.

in my turn 163 submission with france, i was able to produce 7 scientists and one engineer by turn 153, and sooner should be possible. i used great plains landing in the forest part for this submission for the chopping potential.
for the great people, i just had capital build all the gs point things, engineer rushed pt, and had capital produce first 3 scientists then each other city produces 1 and capital double pops engineer + scientist. i think this could be repeated / shaved down too, especially with stronger capital.

With so much choices, i wonder what is the best map. I only tried pangea for bigger spots of ressources to sell. I got lucky to find some civs around nice lands as well and they could generate enough gold through the game. Timing and snowballing are important as usual.

i tried a couple pangea rolls, an inland sea, then great plains. my great plains forest start with france was by far the best. i moved two turns to get river adjacent, ended up with a ridiculous # of forests for chopping and 2 stone, 2 gems, 2 fur, 2 iron, 2 deer within paris' radius. i also ended up with 2 extra scientists at the end of the game, so i definitely could have shaved quite a few turns off by starting my second wave of RAs earlier.

i'm not sure why this submission didn't make the list?
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=3019


Fixed, timing issue with the cutoff for submissions.