View Full Version : Naval Dreamer?


thadian
Apr 16, 2012, 06:23 PM
By the looks of things, archipelago games with large navies featuring all navy civ's will go from nightmare to dream come true.

Not only can embarked units protect themselves but more civ's are tuned for naval warfare. I hope to see "better" naval action, and not just more destroyers. Given that so many civ's now between them all have either naval UU's or naval traits, hopefully navy war has also been reworked and rebalanced.

if so, +1.

KillingMeSoftly
Apr 16, 2012, 07:30 PM
There's also the Great Admiral, who apparently can heal nearby naval units.

thadian
Apr 16, 2012, 07:33 PM
i did NOT notice that, so how does this impact embarked great generals i wonder...

finally, the naval front can be about more than using galleys to sink your enemy land forces and try to win before they spam a billion destroyers a turn. For all of the improvements and features promised, i am putting my chips on the naval element.

Lord Olleus
Apr 17, 2012, 03:08 AM
Do we know what the new naval units will be yet?

My Theory is:
Ancient:
Galley - ranged (Currently called trireme)

Classical:
Trireme - melee

Medieval
Caravel - explorer/scout
Carrack - ranged

Renaissance
Frigate - Melee
Privateer - Weaker Melee, hides nationality

Enlightenment
Ship-of-the-Line - Ranged (rename the British UU to Man-o-War)
Iron Clad - Melee, not ocean going

Industrial
Destroyer - Melee, Anti-Submarine, fast scout
Battleship - Ranged
Submarine - Ranged (range 1), hidden, carrier missiles
Cruiser - Melee (much stronger than destroyer but slower)


Modern
Carrier - Melee, carries planes
Missile Cruiser - Long Ranged, carries missiles

Upgrade tree would go
Galley->Carrack->Ship-of-the-Line->Battleship->Missile Cruiser
Trireme->Frigate->Cruiser->Missile Cruiser
Ironclad->Cruiser->
Caravel->Destroyer
Privateer->Submarine (kind of unrelated, but have similar functions)


I know it's not 100% historically accurate, but seems like this is the fewest changes they can make form the current game in order to have it working

CYZ
Apr 17, 2012, 04:08 AM
I'm guessing an Great Admiral is just an embarked Great General. Which is fine by the way because there's no good improvement for an admiral.

Hopefully naval AI will be more able. Invasions should be easier for them now, but it's a must they actually use fleets. Right now the AI just sends individual ships, they should send fleets, more or less in formation and with a Great Admiral.

theadder
Apr 17, 2012, 04:16 AM
I'm guessing an Great Admiral is just an embarked Great General. Which is fine by the way because there's no good improvement for an admiral.

Hopefully naval AI will be more able. Invasions should be easier for them now, but it's a must they actually use fleets. Right now the AI just sends individual ships, they should send fleets, more or less in formation and with a Great Admiral.

I thought that it was confirmed that the Great Admiral is a separate unit.

eazyseeker
Apr 17, 2012, 05:58 AM
AFAIK, the Great Admiral *IS* a separate non-embarked naval unit, that other than boosting the other ship's strength, also has the special, one-time (it consumes it) ability to heal all ships in range.

CYZ
Apr 17, 2012, 06:25 AM
Woops, my bad. I wonder if they can disembark then :O

Camikaze
Apr 17, 2012, 06:33 AM
IIRC, it was said that the Great Admiral acts as a civilian naval unit (i.e. like a work boat)?

CYZ
Apr 17, 2012, 06:47 AM
IIRC, it was said that the Great Admiral acts as a civilian naval unit (i.e. like a work boat)?

Ah, ok, so no improvement then I guess?

Lord Olleus
Apr 17, 2012, 06:50 AM
We don't know.

My guess is that it will have an improvement, but it will be a mostly 'civilian' one, boosting food/gold on that coastal tile (+4F, +2G?). Not sure what to call it, fishing wharf maybe? I know its nothing to do with military, but admirals exist in merchant navies as well as combat ones.

eazyseeker
Apr 17, 2012, 07:08 AM
IIRC, it was said that the Great Admiral acts as a civilian naval unit (i.e. like a work boat)?

Well, that makes sense. It should be able to stack with military units, as the GG does.

Louis XXIV
Apr 17, 2012, 07:40 AM
Lord Olleus, I'll give some thoughts. I haven't done a unit count in awhile to figure out how many naval units we can play with. However:

I agree Triremes will be melee more likely than not. Although they might decide, for balance reasons, to make them ranged.

Caravel is not really a Medieval ship. I suspect the Middle Ages won't be changed and we'll keep the same ships we have now. Caravel, as an explorer, will likely not fall into the normal pattern. I don't think they'll add a Carrack.

Frigate stays the same, but they'll add Privateer as a melee unit. They are unlikely to add generic Ship of the Line and the English are keeping their ship.

I agree the Ironclad will likely be melee.

After that, I don't think they'll add anything. The only doubt I have is whether they'll add a Dreadnought and WWI Destroyer and whether there will be a modern melee unit, assuming a Missile Destroyer is (rightfully) ranged.

Haig
Apr 17, 2012, 07:45 AM
Using great admiral to heal ships removes great admiral, can be thought of like Admiral Nelson losing his life on the event of learning out his greatest victory.. :)

Zaimejs
Apr 17, 2012, 10:33 AM
This is cool, and I hope that it's true. I really hope that Submarines can go undetected into enemy waters... I finally built a submarine the other day, only to find that entering enemy borders would trigger a war. This is stupid.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 17, 2012, 10:46 AM
Lord Olleus, I'll give some thoughts. I haven't done a unit count in awhile to figure out how many naval units we can play with. However:

I agree Triremes will be melee more likely than not. Although they might decide, for balance reasons, to make them ranged.

Caravel is not really a Medieval ship. I suspect the Middle Ages won't be changed and we'll keep the same ships we have now. Caravel, as an explorer, will likely not fall into the normal pattern. I don't think they'll add a Carrack.

Frigate stays the same, but they'll add Privateer as a melee unit. They are unlikely to add generic Ship of the Line and the English are keeping their ship.

I agree the Ironclad will likely be melee.

After that, I don't think they'll add anything. The only doubt I have is whether they'll add a Dreadnought and WWI Destroyer and whether there will be a modern melee unit, assuming a Missile Destroyer is (rightfully) ranged.

The Destroyer has been changed to melee to be the Modern naval melee unit.

I think that there needs to be a new melee naval unit positioned between the Trireme and the Privateer.

Louis XXIV
Apr 17, 2012, 11:00 AM
I don't think there will be. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the longstanding gap between classical and age of discovery naval units will be filled.

AriochIV
Apr 17, 2012, 12:54 PM
The Trireme is most likely going to be converted into a melee unit. In addition to being realistic (the primary weapon of the Trireme was its ram), we do know that the Carthaginian Quinquereme is a melee unit. I do hope the attack animation involves ramming... that would be fun.

They could add a new ancient/classical ranged naval unit, but they probably shouldn't... naval vessels were not great ranged platforms in that era.

For the Renaissance, the Privateer may well be the only new addition as the melee unit for that era. I haven't seen anything about hiding of national identity.

AFAIK, the Great Admiral *IS* a separate non-embarked naval unit, that other than boosting the other ship's strength, also has the special, one-time (it consumes it) ability to heal all ships in range.
The quotes I have seen make it sound like the healing is a passive ability, and the screenshot (http://www.well-of-souls.com/civ/images/civ5gandkscreen2.jpg)we have of the Great Admiral does not show any new ability buttons.

Zaimejs
Apr 17, 2012, 01:57 PM
Maybe I'm not remember right, but is there a Viking naval UU? There certainly should be. During the Middle Ages, this was the Viking's big advantage... the longboat. No other Civ could even come close. They crossed the ocean in those puppies long before anyone had frigates or galleons. They should replace the caravel for the Vikings turning it into a powerful melee unit or something.

Meh.

eazyseeker
Apr 17, 2012, 01:58 PM
Maybe I'm not remember right, but is there a Viking naval UU? There certainly should be. During the Middle Ages, this was the Viking's big advantage... the longboat. No other Civ could even come close. They crossed the ocean in those puppies long before anyone had frigates or galleons. They should replace the caravel for the Vikings turning it into a powerful melee unit or something.

Meh.

Well, it kinda is represented already by their UA - their embarked units turn into longboats anyway.

thadian
Apr 18, 2012, 05:19 AM
If i stand a general and admiral by each other, i wonder if their bonuses wil stack?

CYZ
Apr 18, 2012, 05:25 AM
If i stand a general and admiral by each other, i wonder if their bonuses wil stack?

Perhaps, but my guess is that GA will only affect naval+embarked units and GG will only effect units on land.

Still though, if they don't do that then the bonus would probably stack. And why not, combined land and naval effort.

thadian
Apr 18, 2012, 05:28 AM
well, it would be positive if GG's no longer gave bonuses to naval-embarked units. i feel like a cheater when i line up archers+catapaults+triremes with a GG knowing even my boats are stronger, to a point no enemy can even land.

then again, when i don't do this and feel like a cheater, i become a... loser, and i would rather win.

Lord Olleus
Apr 18, 2012, 06:06 AM
They could add a new ancient/classical ranged naval unit, but they probably shouldn't... naval vessels were not great ranged platforms in that era.

For the Renaissance, the Privateer may well be the only new addition as the melee unit for that era. I haven't seen anything about hiding of national identity.


I do hope they add a classical ranged ship, naval combat should just be more interesting if you have both ranged and melee units. Especially when you are forced to use only shallow water tiles (as in the classical era) which effectively turns everything into a choke point.

I always assumed that the privateer was a pirate type of ship, but if it doesn't have any specific abilities then, I agree, it will be the melee ship of its age and the frigate the ranged.

The need for a carrack/ship-of-the-line/dreadnough really depends on how the new tech tree is layed out and how big the gaps are between units. Due to the new era being added, I think that one out of the ship-of-the-line or dreadnough has to be added. There is also the possibility that they turn the ironclad into something actually useful.

nokmirt
Apr 18, 2012, 11:20 AM
We should be able to build galleys in the ancient era for early exploration. The unit should be ranged. Although melee could work as well. I just don't feel you should have to worry about coastal cities straight from the outset.

Apparently the dromon UU is ranged, or am I mistaken?

Also, to see a type of medieval ship would be nice.

They should have caravel ranged, privateer melee

frigate melee, ship of the line ranged, manowar should be added to England which of course should be ranged. I would love to see this and it is how it should be.

Frigates do not enter line of battle, they simply do not have enough guns. A ship needs to have at least 64 guns to enter the battle line.The frigate's duties to the fleet include: picket duty, acting as fleet messengers, recon and coastal evaluation, suppression of enemy trade, various other missions where they act alone, acquiring prize money.

Line of battleships where the real force of the times which rated the naval power of nations, not frigates. Anyone that knows about the "Age of Sail", knows I am right. I do realize this is a game, but come on, its not much to ask to add a SOTL. Especially, when they have Nelson as a GA. Besides since Nelson is portrayed as an admiral, he would not command a frigate. My god what an apalling thought for a gentleman of his prestige and stature. Anyway, depending on the size of the frigate, that is a command for a Master and Commander, or a Post Captain, not an admiral.

If they have the ironclad be a melee unit, which seems very odd to me. Then they should add a commerce raider which is ranged.

I would love to see a WWI destroyer and a dreadnought. It would be odd to see new WWI style land units and no WWI sea units.

I would love to see some of the things I described worked out in the techtree. Either way I will be buying GnK, but it is still fun to hope. Adding a SOTL and WWI naval units would really make me happy though. It would prove they have done some real research. ;)

Jewman
Apr 18, 2012, 11:26 AM
does this mean the turtle ship is going to be the greatest unit in the game? i mean, if it turns into a melee ship or is accompanied by melee ships, the koreans could be easily cause a whole lotta chaos along coastlines

AriochIV
Apr 18, 2012, 11:29 AM
well, it would be positive if GG's no longer gave bonuses to naval-embarked units. i feel like a cheater when i line up archers+catapaults+triremes with a GG knowing even my boats are stronger, to a point no enemy can even land. then again, when i don't do this and feel like a cheater, i become a... loser, and i would rather win.
That doesn't seem like "cheating" to me because prior to the development of gunpowder, there wasn't much distinction between admirals and generals... since warships of that era were mostly just containers with infantry in them.

But I agree that if Great Admirals do offer combat bonus in addition to the healing ability, then it shouldn't and almost certainly won't overlap with a Great General's bonus (in the same way that two Great Generals' bonuses don't overlap today).

Lord Olleus
Apr 18, 2012, 11:54 AM
That doesn't seem like "cheating" to me because prior to the development of gunpowder, there wasn't much distinction between admirals and generals... since warships of that era were mostly just containers with infantry in them.


The greeks would disagree with you. Quite strongly.

AriochIV
Apr 18, 2012, 01:12 PM
The greeks would disagree with you. Quite strongly.
Actually, I was referring specifically to the Greeks. Athenian "generals" (strategos) commanded forces on both land and sea.

Pazyryk
Apr 18, 2012, 01:50 PM
I haven't seen anything about hiding of national identity. Neither have I, but it is the natural assumption because that's the way privateers worked before. I sure hope it is in. But I could imagine them implementing this differently without hidden nationality. For example, they could just attack without DoW. That's probably a more accurate representation because no one was ever fooled by the flags anyway.

Eagle Pursuit
Apr 18, 2012, 01:55 PM
I have no expectation that Privateers will work like they did in IV. They appear to be in in order to be the melee counterpart of the Frigate. Privateers wanted to capture enemy vessels, not sink them, so it makes them a natural choice for a melee naval unit.

civzombie
Apr 18, 2012, 02:47 PM
How about:

Burn a great admiral to ignore the cannot travel in ocean tag for x turns! :)

smallfish
Apr 18, 2012, 02:54 PM
How about:

Burn a great admiral to ignore the cannot travel in ocean tag for x turns! :)

How would this affect the Polynesians' Wayfarer UA, where they don't need to tech Astro to cross oceans?

AbbieRevo
Apr 18, 2012, 03:23 PM
I'm guessing there won't be any ranged naval units until Gunpowder, it would make sense.

The Dromon could be a possible exception. What with its Greek Fire and whatnot.

AriochIV
Apr 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
Neither have I, but it is the natural assumption because that's the way privateers worked before. I sure hope it is in. But I could imagine them implementing this differently without hidden nationality. For example, they could just attack without DoW. That's probably a more accurate representation because no one was ever fooled by the flags anyway.
The only evidence on this subject that I have (and it's not very strong) is an anecdotal comment from Dennis Shirk (IIRC) about seeing a group of British Pirates (assuming he meant English Privateers) coming, and then learning through Espionage that they were on their way to attack someone else. He wouldn't have been able to see that the Privateers were English if they hid their nationality.

Admittedly paper-thin evidence, but that's all I have.

I'm guessing there won't be any ranged naval units until Gunpowder, it would make sense. The Dromon could be a possible exception. What with its Greek Fire and whatnot.
Flamethrowers, especially medieval ones, are point-blank-range weapons. I think in Civilization V they would all count as melee.

AbbieRevo
Apr 18, 2012, 03:51 PM
The only evidence on this subject that I have (and it's not very strong) is an anecdotal comment from Dennis Shirk (IIRC) about seeing a group of British Pirates (assuming he meant English Privateers) coming, and then learning through Espionage that they were on their way to attack someone else. He wouldn't have been able to see that the Privateers were English if they hid their nationality.

Admittedly paper-thin evidence, but that's all I have.


Flamethrowers, especially medieval ones, are point-blank-range weapons. I think in Civilization V they would all count as melee.

Well, that's why I said "possible" but it did allow ships to attack other ships without just ramming. Plus, it's not like everything in these games has always made perfect sense.

Louis XXIV
Apr 18, 2012, 03:54 PM
Privateers actually carried the flag of their country. They were officially sanctioned private ships fighting for a nation.

AriochIV
Apr 18, 2012, 04:04 PM
Privateers actually carried the flag of their country. They were officially sanctioned private ships fighting for a nation.
Right. That's the other thing I forgot to say: in previous Civ games, the "privateers" were really state-sanctioned pirates whose role was harrying shipping during peacetime. True privateers were wartime mercenaries who flew the colors of their patron country.

thadian
Apr 18, 2012, 04:54 PM
maybe a spy option to reveal nationality? your spy would take a mission to "reveal" national units of the nation you used it against maybe?

I remember civ4 privateers, and only mine were allowed to live. EVER. i ALWAYS killed them, knowing the trouble they would cause later on once they sunk all the galleys and caravels, and promoted up.

Cedbird
Apr 19, 2012, 10:25 PM
i did NOT notice that, so how does this impact embarked great generals i wonder...

finally, the naval front can be about more than using galleys to sink your enemy land forces and try to win before they spam a billion destroyers a turn. For all of the improvements and features promised, i am putting my chips on the naval element.


Guess he 's not a fan of the Liberty or commerce social policys huh . Lets go for the Soviet style play !!!

KnelRivendare
Jun 15, 2012, 09:12 AM
Perhaps, but my guess is that GA will only affect naval+embarked units and GG will only effect units on land.

Still though, if they don't do that then the bonus would probably stack. And why not, combined land and naval effort.

Great Generals now also doesnt effect naval units and if you give a naval unit a Great General promotion it also doesnt have an effect on land units.

i personally dont like the idea of a great general driving around on a small unarmed ship
i favor the great general promotion to be on a Battleship or on a Ship of the Line as Flagship.

thadian
Jun 15, 2012, 11:35 AM
agreed, i like making a flagship.

naval war is an important front to me, because i hate pangeas.

fromar
Jun 15, 2012, 01:04 PM
agreed, i like making a flagship.


I like the idea of a flagship. But this does beg the question, why have generals at all? Why not designate a land unit to be the leader of the army in the same way?

AriochIV
Jun 15, 2012, 02:09 PM
I like the idea of a flagship. But this does beg the question, why have generals at all? Why not designate a land unit to be the leader of the army in the same way?Because the units in question are not just generals and admirals, but "great" generals and admirals that give an unusual bonus, so they need to be a limited resource. Every unit on the map can be assumed to have a regular general or admiral in charge.

fromar
Jun 15, 2012, 02:47 PM
Because the units in question are not just generals and admirals, but "great" generals and admirals that give an unusual bonus, so they need to be a limited resource. Every unit on the map can be assumed to have a regular general or admiral in charge.

Sure, I agree with great generals and great admirals being a limited resource. My impression was that the promotion of "flagship" that was being suggested above would consume a great admiral. I'm wondering if we are going to consume great admirals to make flagships, why not have the same functionality for land units?

Eagle Pursuit
Jun 15, 2012, 03:01 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you can burn Great Admirals to make flagships. The only thing you can burn them for, to my knowledge, is to instantly heal adjacent naval and embarked units. It's something that can only occur once, not a promotion for the unit stacked with the Great Admiral. Otherwise the Great Admiral normally acts as a combat buff to adjacent naval units.

thadian
Jun 15, 2012, 05:25 PM
i hope the AI doesn't put admirals on the front line to rush my empire like it does with great scientists, great generals and workers.

once, a LONG time ago, it sent spaceship parts in with the invasion crew...

Gucumatz
Jun 15, 2012, 06:21 PM
i hope the AI doesn't put admirals on the front line to rush my empire like it does with great scientists, great generals and workers.

once, a LONG time ago, it sent spaceship parts in with the invasion crew...

Prometheus are you seeing this?

fromar
Jun 15, 2012, 07:19 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you can burn Great Admirals to make flagships. The only thing you can burn them for, to my knowledge, is to instantly heal adjacent naval and embarked units. It's something that can only occur once, not a promotion for the unit stacked with the Great Admiral. Otherwise the Great Admiral normally acts as a combat buff to adjacent naval units.

Sure, i agree from what we know. i was responding to the flagship idea above. we have no indication the devs are doing this.

KnelRivendare
Jun 15, 2012, 08:19 PM
well it would be easily modable to give a ship or a unit the "Great General" promotion at a specific level not the same as burning the great general to get a flagship but still.

it was just an idea on what id like im not thinking they do anything close to that, firaxis isnt so much into that whole "reality" thing.

KillingMeSoftly
Jun 15, 2012, 08:22 PM
It would be a nice feature where you can attach your Great General/Admiral to a unit and it will automatically follow it.

Esoteric Arcane
Jun 15, 2012, 08:27 PM
It would be a nice feature where you can attach your Great General/Admiral to a unit and it will automatically follow it.

I agree, moving multiple units (well in civ 5) a civilian and military unit, should be able to put them as a group control move.

Honestly I never really seen much impact with the great generals anyways, sure the +10 bonus was a little help, but really not that great, Im sure a heal one damage for every unit near the tile would of been a great use for them. I just use them to lure out the enemy from their city so I can take their cities easier. The benifit of suicidal (queen as in chess) general is my main tactic for them, else I would just go to golden age if I have to many lieing around. I dont use the citadel feature since you HAVE to put that inside your boarders.

thadian
Jun 15, 2012, 10:06 PM
My eyes are always on Commerce and Rationalism - but i sure hate it when the AI buffs spam out en-mass destroyers... XD

pspboy7
Jun 20, 2012, 11:41 PM
The Ottomans look better now... free prize ships upgrade for melee ships rather than silly barb ship conversion. Ottomans could be fun to play now finally.

King_Course
Jun 21, 2012, 02:29 AM
Maybe I'm not remember right, but is there a Viking naval UU? There certainly should be. During the Middle Ages, this was the Viking's big advantage... the longboat. No other Civ could even come close. They crossed the ocean in those puppies long before anyone had frigates or galleons. They should replace the caravel for the Vikings turning it into a powerful melee unit or something.

Meh.

The longboats of the viking were traversing deep ocean at the same time triremes were bound to coastal regions or traversing the mediteranean at a big risk. The Caravel shows up in Portugal much later in the 15. century.

So for me (as a dane IRL), I would get rid of the norwegian ski infantry, and have deep ocean going longboats instead of triremes in a heartbeat.