View Full Version : Existing Buildings Discussion


Pages : [1] 2 3

Vokarya
Apr 18, 2012, 09:22 PM
Since we have a new buildings discussion thread, I thought I would start another thread for discussing changes to existing buildings. I have some ideas I would like to throw out for debate.

First is the Siege Weapons Workshop/Cannon Forge. If you have Matchlock tech, Iron and Sulphur resources, and have built a Cannon Forge, you can still build a Siege Weapons Workshop in that city (until Artillery) but it wouldn't allow you to build any units because they would all be superseded, making the SWW a waste of hammers. I suggest adding Sulphur to the Cannon Forge building requirements and having it replace the Siege Weapons Workshop.

The only drawback I can see to this is that if the Cannon Forge replaces the Siege Weapons Workshop, you would have a gap between the Ancient Hand Cannon (which you wouldn't be able to build if the Siege Weapons Workshop was gone) and the Arquebusier at Matchlock. I'm not sure that is such a loss.

So I propose this change:
Cannon Forge
Requires Iron AND Sulphur
Replaces Siege Weapons Workshop

The second change is that I don't think that the Doctor's Office, Field Hospital, and Hospital should be allowed to coexist in a city. I think this is one source of too much health. I would like to have the Hospital replace the Doctor's Office and Field Hospital, but give the Hospital +1 health (total +8) to compensate. (You would be losing 4 health from the Doctor's Office/Field Hospital combination.)

Can you do OR prerequisites on the building requirements for a unit? I would think that Doctor's Office should be able to train Medic, because that would be your main medical building for cities that have not yet reached size 13 and can build a Hospital. I would also extend Field Hospital's Medic speed bonus to Surgeon so that it stays useful UNTIL the Hospital is built. I don't think a size 13 city needs help to train a Medic. Medic would train with Doctor's Office or Hospital, and all more advanced medical units would require Hospital.

Summary:
Doctor's Office
Allows training of Medic, Surgeon

Field Hospital
+50% faster production of Medic, Surgeon

Hospital
+8 health (up from +7)
Replaces Doctor's Office, Field Hospital

Medic
Requires Doctor's Office OR Hospital

What do you think of these suggestions?

CIVPlayer8
Apr 18, 2012, 10:19 PM
I like the siege weapons workshop idea.On a side note, you need a siege weapon workshop to build a catapult, and it also increases its production time by 100% I think these should be separated into two building, one which is necessary, and one which doubles production of it. I also like the hospital idea, it may be the first few steps taken to balance our over healthiness. Also, IMO, waaayy too many buildings are "obsolete" with virtual reality, and the buildings being obsolete don't even make sense for this modern era tech. Public pools and sports stadium obsolete? I think not, seeing how I go to both regularly. Also, some buildings are barely unlocked (skate park) before their obsolete. Not very practical.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 18, 2012, 11:14 PM
Can you do OR prerequisites on the building requirements for a unit?

Not in vanilla BtS but it looks like we can in C2C. I have not seen it used yet.

Thunderbrd
Apr 18, 2012, 11:22 PM
I was just considering making some suggestions along this line earlier today so its cool to see others thinking along similar lines.

I'd like to register a complaint with the entire graveyard line. I simply don't build them, and its mostly due to having absolutely no cause to accept such war unhappiness for what they give is not worth it. I don't feel it necessary for them to cause any war unhappiness at all in fact. I mean... imagine how unhappy people would be during or after a war if they DIDN'T have a graveyard... to me it seems the opposite would be true, even though I concede some understanding of the thinking behind it.

I think they should be more important than just health but I haven't been able to think of what exactly the benefit should be. I suppose if health were more difficult to come by... but shouldn't they be an absolute requirement somehow? Otherwise, where are bodies going? Perhaps we should outright double the unhealth per population after say pop 6 or so and have these counteract that penalty. Perhaps there should be some 'war unhealth' that they counteract somehow.

Hydromancerx
Apr 18, 2012, 11:51 PM
@Vokarya

The SWW i also needed for the Ballista Turret which goes obsolete at economics. I think its fine. It not hurting anything having a building that cannot build any units anymore.

As for the Medical buildings I don't see why all 3 cannot co-exist at the same time. You want the hospitals to be packed with patients? :lol:

I was just considering making some suggestions along this line earlier today so its cool to see others thinking along similar lines.

I'd like to register a complaint with the entire graveyard line. I simply don't build them, and its mostly due to having absolutely no cause to accept such war unhappiness for what they give is not worth it. I don't feel it necessary for them to cause any war unhappiness at all in fact. I mean... imagine how unhappy people would be during or after a war if they DIDN'T have a graveyard... to me it seems the opposite would be true, even though I concede some understanding of the thinking behind it.

I think they should be more important than just health but I haven't been able to think of what exactly the benefit should be. I suppose if health were more difficult to come by... but shouldn't they be an absolute requirement somehow? Otherwise, where are bodies going? Perhaps we should outright double the unhealth per population after say pop 6 or so and have these counteract that penalty. Perhaps there should be some 'war unhealth' that they counteract somehow.

wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.

As for the WW it was actually higher. I am not sure what to do. It unlocks like 4 different buildings too, which should be somewhat appealing.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 19, 2012, 12:49 AM
wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.

As for the WW it was actually higher. I am not sure what to do. It unlocks like 4 different buildings too, which should be somewhat appealing.

I just get Zoroasterism and build the sky graveyard instead, ;)

Il Principe
Apr 19, 2012, 06:58 AM
The Field Hospital could give a war weariness reduction, but only +1 health.
Would reduce over healthiness and make sense.

This just set a line of thought in motion: Could buildings be dependent on your war/peace status? So that having a war would influence your empire more? Like a hospital giving less health during war with all the doctors relocated to the military ( maybe realy heavy with drafted army civic active). The field hospital on the other hand could be unaffected by this.
Other ideas could be reduced income from money buildings, greatly reduced science output from schools and universities because of the young people going to war instead.

Vokarya
Apr 19, 2012, 07:52 AM
@Vokarya

The SWW i also needed for the Ballista Turret which goes obsolete at economics. I think its fine. It not hurting anything having a building that cannot build any units anymore.

I forgot about the Ballista Turret. Should maybe Bombard Tower replace Ballista Turret? I'm not a big fan of allowing Traps to stack to the point where they can destroy units single-handedly.


As for the Medical buildings I don't see why all 3 cannot co-exist at the same time. You want the hospitals to be packed with patients? :lol:


wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.


Right now (v22) I am seeing Modern era cities with health into the +40's. I think that could be reined in a little, and that's one of the reasons I made the suggestion.

Sgtslick
Apr 19, 2012, 11:17 AM
Would depend on what difficulty you are playing. Generally health isn't much of a concern tho your right. Even if you have negative health, with all the +food buildings its really not big a problem.

Hydromancerx
Apr 19, 2012, 02:58 PM
I forgot about the Ballista Turret. Should maybe Bombard Tower replace Ballista Turret? I'm not a big fan of allowing Traps to stack to the point where they can destroy units single-handedly.


Its not on the same building path. Its connected to the Castle mod that Afforess made.

Troninator
Apr 19, 2012, 04:26 PM
I have an issue with the buildings that require charcoal. Why should I have to import charcoal in the Industrial Era?

Smokehouse, Forge, Armourer, and Foundry all require charcoal. Smokehouse obsoletes at Refrigeration, and Armourer obsoletes at Flintlock. Forge and Foundry never obsolete, except by the method explained below.

All sources of charcoal become obsolete by Steam Power. Fire Pit and Imu become obsolete at Iron Working, but we still have Charcoal Burner until Steam Power. There are no more ways to get charcoal past these three.

This essentially means that if I want to use Forges and Foundries I need to import charcoal from other civs, which is easy to do because the AI hand it out for free. This obsoletes the buildings once everyone has researched Steam Power.

As far as possible changes, we can either remove the charcoal requirement from Forge and Foundry, or we can keep Charcoal Burner from obsoleting.

JosEPh_II
Apr 19, 2012, 05:14 PM
or we can keep Charcoal Burner from obsoleting.

Agreed.

How else is my 20th century man gonna cook his steaks or shrimp on the "barbie"? Propane suxs but is better than the broiler. ;)

JosEPh

Troninator
Apr 19, 2012, 05:32 PM
Agreed.

How else is my 20th century man gonna cook his steaks or shrimp on the "barbie"? Propane suxs but is better than the broiler. ;)

JosEPh

I just realized that Steel Mill, which replaces Forge and Foundry, comes online at Steel. Steel only has Steam Power as a prereq. I still think that having a functioning Forge-->Foundry-->Steel Mill tree is useful during the Industrial Era. This tree allows you to slowly build up a newly conq'd city's :hammers:, rather than have to sink turns (or cash) into building a Steel Mill.

Thunderbrd
Apr 19, 2012, 09:10 PM
Modern Charcoal Briquettes came about as a result of a moment of industrial brilliance as a way to resell waste sawdust... perhaps such thinking could be considered in a building adjustment.

Vokarya
Apr 19, 2012, 09:41 PM
Would depend on what difficulty you are playing. Generally health isn't much of a concern tho your right. Even if you have negative health, with all the +food buildings its really not big a problem.

I am playing on Emperor difficulty. I don't think Deity would be more than an additional -4 or so health per city.

Vokarya
Apr 20, 2012, 09:59 AM
Here's another tweak I thought of, to make it easier to build certain buildings. The Alcohol-producing buildings (Brewery/Distillery/Winery) are all supposed to
be available at Fermentation in the Ancient Era, but the Glassware requirement actually pushes them into the Classical Era. I think you should be able to hold your alcohol in Pottery instead of Glassware.

I don't think we can do double OR requirements for buildings, so I also have a tweak for the requirements for Brewery to bring it into line with Distillery and Winery. I noticed Distillery and Winery have building requirements for their raw material, but Brewery just has resource requirements.

This is what I am thinking:

Brewery
Building requirements: Barley Farm OR Corn Farm OR Potato Farm OR Rice Farm OR Wheat Farm
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

Distillery
Building requirements unchanged
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

Winery
Building requirements unchanged
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

How does this sound?

BlueGenie
Apr 20, 2012, 11:54 AM
Sounds good V. What about adding in Barrels too. There's still use of barrels (casks, kegs) to keep and make alcohol in and it was used way long before Glassware. That way Glassware bottles might be pushed a little further on too, which is more in line with when glass bottles were used for liquid storage.
Glassware itself dates back to 12'000BC or so but only as natural coatings used. Glass making didn't come until Mesopotamia 5-3'000BC and then spread widely across the world, though not really used for bottles or any liquid storage until the 1st century AD when the Romans adopted the Syrian's Glassblowing technique and started used bottles to sell wine in. Then it was still only for the rich (and you basically had to bring your own bottle to be filled up due to varying sizes) and it took until 19th century and being able to manufacture same size bottles until it became more generally used.

So, Glassware might be good a little earlier than where it is now but Glass-Blowing should come a little later again. My thought anyway.

Cheers

Vokarya
Apr 20, 2012, 12:24 PM
Sounds good V. What about adding in Barrels too. There's still use of barrels (casks, kegs) to keep and make alcohol in and it was used way long before Glassware. That way Glassware bottles might be pushed a little further on too, which is more in line with when glass bottles were used for liquid storage.
Glassware itself dates back to 12'000BC or so but only as natural coatings used. Glass making didn't come until Mesopotamia 5-3'000BC and then spread widely across the world, though not really used for bottles or any liquid storage until the 1st century AD when the Romans adopted the Syrian's Glassblowing technique and started used bottles to sell wine in. Then it was still only for the rich (and you basically had to bring your own bottle to be filled up due to varying sizes) and it took until 19th century and being able to manufacture same size bottles until it became more generally used.

So, Glassware might be good a little earlier than where it is now but Glass-Blowing should come a little later again. My thought anyway.

Cheers

I actually realized that we do not have a Cooper building to make Barrels. We have just about everything else. Barrels would definitely work.

The Glass Blowing technology is at the very beginning of the Classical Era, so it could be moved around some with adding the right prerequisites. Glass Blowing doesn't lead to any technologies until the middle of the Medieval Era, so wherever it lands won't mess up anything else.

Hydromancerx
Apr 20, 2012, 04:41 PM
A Cooper sounds like a good idea. I will try to add one next time I am adding new Craft mod buildings.

Koshling
Apr 20, 2012, 04:49 PM
A Cooper sounds like a good idea. I will try to add one next time I am adding new Craft mod buildings.

Terminological nit-picking:

spot the odd one out:

Cooper
Cobbler
Hat shop


Hint it's the milliner! Of course there is an argument for consistency the other way too.

Dancing Hoskuld
Apr 20, 2012, 04:51 PM
Terminological nit-picking:

spot the odd one out:

Cooper
Cobbler
Hat shop


Hint it's the milliner! Of course there is an argument for consistency the other way too.

Pity we don't have mercury then we could have"Mad Hatters".:lol:

Hydromancerx
Apr 20, 2012, 05:09 PM
Pity we don't have mercury then we could have"Mad Hatters".:lol:

The icon for the Hat Shop is of the Mad Matter. :hatsoff:

Vokarya
Apr 22, 2012, 10:12 AM
Its not on the same building path. Its connected to the Castle mod that Afforess made.

Doesn't mean we can't tweak it. Or create a Cannon Turret to replace it. That would tie up everything with a little bow on top. I'll post that in the new buildings thread.

Hydromancerx
Apr 22, 2012, 12:13 PM
Doesn't mean we can't tweak it. Or create a Cannon Turret to replace it. That would tie up everything with a little bow on top. I'll post that in the new buildings thread.

True. But if you make an improvement for it I think it should still be linked to the Castle. OR possibly have the castle upgrade into like a Star Fort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort).

Vokarya
Apr 22, 2012, 12:49 PM
True. But if you make an improvement for it I think it should still be linked to the Castle. OR possibly have the castle upgrade into like a Star Fort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort).

I posted it in the New Buildings thread. It would require a Castle-- I have no problems with that.

Il Principe
Apr 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
True. But if you make an improvement for it I think it should still be linked to the Castle. OR possibly have the castle upgrade into like a Star Fort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort).

An upgrade for the castle would be great.

Vokarya
Apr 30, 2012, 11:26 AM
An upgrade for the castle would be great.

I haven't finished the idea yet, but here is what I am going to try and create:

At Gunpowder, Cannon Turret replaces Ballista Turret.
At Metallurgy, Star Fort replaces Castle.


Star Fort would be good up to Explosives.

Vokarya
Apr 30, 2012, 11:33 AM
I was looking through the Civilopedia and playing a Transhuman-era game and I noticed there are some buildings that don't seem to obsolete when they should. I would like to propose the following:

Apiary
Obsoletes at Vertical Farming.
This matches up with obsoleting all the Farm buildings.

Butchery
Obsoletes at Cloning.
This matches up with obsoleting all the Animal buildings.

Expressway
Obsoletes at Skyroads.
This matches up with obsoleting all of the other buildings related to travel on ground roads.

United Nations
Obsoletes at Galactic Federation.
There is a Federation of Planets mentioned in the Strategy text for Galactic Federation that I think will cover this.

Hydromancerx
May 01, 2012, 01:04 AM
I haven't finished the idea yet, but here is what I am going to try and create:

At Gunpowder, Cannon Turret replaces Ballista Turret.
At Metallurgy, Star Fort replaces Castle.


Star Fort would be good up to Explosives.

Could I do it? I have some good graphics in mind. Or at least collaborate on it?

Hydromancerx
May 01, 2012, 01:07 AM
I was looking through the Civilopedia and playing a Transhuman-era game and I noticed there are some buildings that don't seem to obsolete when they should. I would like to propose the following:

Apiary
Obsoletes at Vertical Farming.
This matches up with obsoleting all the Farm buildings.

Butchery
Obsoletes at Cloning.
This matches up with obsoleting all the Animal buildings.

Expressway
Obsoletes at Skyroads.
This matches up with obsoleting all of the other buildings related to travel on ground roads.

United Nations
Obsoletes at Galactic Federation.
There is a Federation of Planets mentioned in the Strategy text for Galactic Federation that I think will cover this.

I have been re-thinking the farms (both animal and crops) and wondering if they should en go obsolete. Originally they were made to go obsolete because Afforess said they should. However this is not RoM/AND anymore. With so many buildings going obsolete at once I wonder if they should ever go obsolete.

Then again at what point would farming not be viable anymore?

Thunderbrd
May 01, 2012, 01:17 AM
I think the obsoletion of farming may occur in our future if pollution gets out of control, which it likely will before we create a solution. The fields themselves under our current methods of farming can only sustain this sort of high-octane production for so long before the soil burns out. Something to consider for the answer to that question... and maybe to interact with your pollution concept in the other thread.

BTW, it doesn't appear to me that we've fully solved a previous issue with defenses... it still appears to be that all defense bonuses still only apply to troops without high-explosives. Shouldn't we create some additional defense tabs for non-obsoleting defense bonuses and update our buildings to it accordingly?

Koshling
May 01, 2012, 07:34 AM
I have been re-thinking the farms (both animal and crops) and wondering if they should en go obsolete. Originally they were made to go obsolete because Afforess said they should. However this is not RoM/AND anymore. With so many buildings going obsolete at once I wonder if they should ever go obsolete.

Then again at what point would farming not be viable anymore?

Well, an apiary (building) is likely to go obsolete when you urbanize everything in the area (let's say vertical farms as an extreme proxy for that) because you no longer have the local environment with the right flaura to support the bees (just an example, but in general, more intensive land-use would obsolete things that require siginficant land, either directly (normal farms) or indirectly (environmental footprint like the apiray case)

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 09:09 AM
I have been re-thinking the farms (both animal and crops) and wondering if they should en go obsolete. Originally they were made to go obsolete because Afforess said they should. However this is not RoM/AND anymore. With so many buildings going obsolete at once I wonder if they should ever go obsolete.

Then again at what point would farming not be viable anymore?

I think Vertical Farming actually fits as a shorthand for "we're not farming the land any more". Hydroponics (for plants), Aquaculture (for Fish) and Cloning (for meat) also fit the bill for me.

Il Principe
May 01, 2012, 10:18 AM
BTW, it doesn't appear to me that we've fully solved a previous issue with defenses... it still appears to be that all defense bonuses still only apply to troops without high-explosives. Shouldn't we create some additional defense tabs for non-obsoleting defense bonuses and update our buildings to it accordingly?

True :) There should be defensesespecially aigainst HE units. Star forts for example, or some future shielding system.

Hydromancerx
May 01, 2012, 04:32 PM
I think Vertical Farming actually fits as a shorthand for "we're not farming the land any more". Hydroponics (for plants), Aquaculture (for Fish) and Cloning (for meat) also fit the bill for me.

Do you think map resources should go obsolete? Such as if you grow meat in a lab why do you need cow or pig resources?

Note this would probably create havoc with the Culture Wonders what depend upon resources.

Koshling
May 01, 2012, 04:36 PM
Do you think map resources should go obsolete? Such as if you grow meat in a lab why do you need cow or pig resources?

Note this would probably create havoc with the Culture Wonders what depend upon resources.

No reason to obsolete the resources I don't think. At some level we're after reality-informed gameplay, not total reality modelling. Obsoleting many of the buildings should suffice without being nearly so disruptive.

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 06:57 PM
Could I do it? I have some good graphics in mind. Or at least collaborate on it?

If you have graphics, I would like to see them. I have nothing and was about to make buttons. Here is my list of specifics for the Cannon Turret:

Cost 200 hammers (double speed for Protective leaders)
Technology: Gunpowder
Obsolete: Artillery
Buildings required: Castle OR Star Fort, Cannon Forge
Resources Required: Iron, Sulphur
-1 gold
+1 unhappy with Pacifism
+5 flammability
Minimum city size 6
Replaces Ballista Turret
25% damage to adjacent units per turn


Compared to the Ballista Turret, it costs twice as much and deals +5% damage over the Ballista. It also adds +5 flammability.

The Star Fort itself would have the following:

Cost 200 hammers (double speed for Protective leaders)
Technology: Metallurgy
Obsolete: Artillery
Resources Required: Bricks OR Stone
+75% defense
-50% damage from bombardment
Minimum city size 6
Replaces Castle


The Star Fort would be a purely military building, without the trade, espionage, or culture benefits of a Castle. The only expanded building for the Star Fort would be the Cannon Turret. You could decide to upgrade to the Star Fort at Metallurgy, and would lose the Castle at Economics.

How is the term "high explosives" defined? I think the Star Fort should be able to work against low-explosive units (Arquebus, Musket, Renaissance-Era Cannon), but then it loses its power against units like Modern Grenadier or Artillery.

Vokarya
May 01, 2012, 07:09 PM
One more thing I'm going to throw out to get it on the board: I think Training Dojo and Masters Dojo need a small bonus. From the time Gunpowder units are available to the time the Dojos go formally obsolete (at Homo Superior), the only units that get Martial Arts promotions are Recon units. The Adventurer does benefit, since it is only Strength 13, but the next Recon unit is the Motorcycle, which has Strength 36 (vs. the most powerful Archery unit at 12 and Melee unit at 15). So the Dojos are buildings that only give -1 hammer, and thus a bad idea to build.

I would suggest one of the following (or both):

Extend Martial Arts promotions to Gunpowder units. They could still benefit from the First Strikes from Martial Arts II and III.
Give Training Dojo +1 culture, and Masters Dojo +1 health and +2 culture, with both of the Dojos' culture doubling in 1000 years.

Hydromancerx
May 02, 2012, 12:36 AM
@Vokarya

1. Overall those look good. Think the Star Fort should be a bit more expensive though (like 225).

2. I am not exactly sure on the high explosives part. I was always confused on how that worked.

3. Here are the icon/buttons for them.

4. I assume you will be coding then and just using the buttons I posted below?

5. I have some other Dojos I would like to add that will depend upon those buildings. Thus they will not be so useless in the future. I disagree that they should get a bonus to gunpowder units.

On a side note you can always make "Kung Fu Clockwork Golems". :cool:

Il Principe
May 02, 2012, 01:26 AM
Maybe the dojos could give something to spies? Not sure which promotion, but looking at all the spy flicks out there I think a spy could definetly benefit from good martial arts training.

Edit: Hyros unemployment/homelss therad send me thinking:
Isnīt it strange that you can build the manor/estate line of housing in a marxist society and noone complains? Maybe those should get some :( in this case. And cost less hammers if you run burgois or patrician.

xartah
May 02, 2012, 02:44 AM
I don't think gunpowder units should get first strikes from martial arts. Close combat is something you do after firing for early units or as a last resort for more modern units.

Thunderbrd
May 02, 2012, 03:00 AM
I feel that the 'sports' buildings, including the league stadiums, should at least add some well thought out minor experience benefits much as the Arena does, to make them more worthy of building in the face of taking our rational production penalty. Currently, I'm not finding them worth building and I believe that the promotion of sports in the populace would make for a stronger, more capable body of potential soldiers. Most sports are really a mock form of combat in and of themselves, if not directly, such as in football, than simply strategically. Most of the skills even modern soldiers may employ in battle would have benefited from life in a society that promotes sports. And to make things interesting, each type of sport could provide a different exp benefit. Football could improve tracked units as many of the same kinds of strategic field strategies employed in the sport can be translated into the skill used in tank warfare. Baseball and Cricket could add an exp to gunpowder units as accuracy and range judgement is key in the sport. Soccer could give a bonus to recon units. Golf could give a benefit to gunship troops, etc...

Il Principe
May 02, 2012, 03:06 AM
... Polo for mounted units, Swimming Pool for Marines.
Oh and slums et al for urban combat...

Faustmouse
May 02, 2012, 04:30 AM
I also liked the idea of giving sport-buildings a crime-reduce bonus. On the other hand, after a big game there often occurs some hooligans that also rise crime...

But I agree with you to buff those buildings since I don't built them on my own...
Crime-reducement, XP Boni or simply more gold and Happiness Boni would be fine.

OR, as it just pops into my mind: What about World Championships? Like every X turns (maybe equal to 4 years) the championship takes place in a random nation that have at least IE 5 Football fields. To take part at it, you need to have at least IE also 5 Foorball Fields. This could give a one-time boost to :gold:, improved relations with all PLayers that take part at the event, :) for some turns (and the (random) winner get some extra :) from their sportbuildings, ect... If you lose it might enhances crime in your cities (disappointed fans destroy some windows or in extreme case burn cars...)

You may improve the chances to win with you overall pop (more people to chose your professionasl from), the number of specific sport buildings (more training) and the time you have your sportbuildings.
This way sports would be more interesting ;)

Vokarya
May 02, 2012, 09:04 PM
Here's an idea I had for Sports buildings: the Athlete specialist. Sports buildings would give you 1 or 2 Athlete slots, and some buildings or Wonders (like Flavian Amphitheatre) would give free Athletes. I think the only issue is placing the specialist on the screen - I seem to remember some difficulty with placing Doctor specialists.

The Athlete specialist would give:

-1 food (Athletes eat a lot)
+1 happiness (entertain the people)
+1 XP for new units (having physically-fit people around gives better military unit strength)


Athletes and Wonders could then generate a Great Athlete:

Settle for +3 happy, +1 XP, +2 culture (don't want to tread on Great Military Instructor)
Discover sports-related technology
Build a Sports building
Start a Golden Age


What do you think?

Vokarya
May 02, 2012, 09:06 PM
I don't think gunpowder units should get first strikes from martial arts. Close combat is something you do after firing for early units or as a last resort for more modern units.

OK, I'll withdraw that idea. I was just thinking about ways to make the Dojo useful after Gunpowder.

CIVPlayer8
May 02, 2012, 09:33 PM
Hmm... I like the idea, but I just can't see much people using the athlete, especially with its -1 food. Of course, you could always make a random event that gives out free Great Athletes?

Vokarya
May 02, 2012, 09:52 PM
Hmm... I like the idea, but I just can't see much people using the athlete, especially with its -1 food. Of course, you could always make a random event that gives out free Great Athletes?

Well, you'd probably only run one or two of them at a time, just enough to get you to the next XP level. +1 XP is really powerful, so I thought it needed a little bit of a drawback. The Athlete doesn't have to have a food penalty. As I said, I would convert some of the Sports wonders to produce free Athlete specialists (for example, Flavian Amphitheatre could provide 2 free Athletes instead of its Combat I promotion) and then have the Amphitheatre, the Olympic Games, and some other Sports wonders produce Great Athlete points.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 02, 2012, 10:17 PM
Here's an idea I had for Sports buildings: the Athlete specialist. Sports buildings would give you 1 or 2 Athlete slots, and some buildings or Wonders (like Flavian Amphitheatre) would give free Athletes. I think the only issue is placing the specialist on the screen - I seem to remember some difficulty with placing Doctor specialists.

The Athlete specialist would give:

-1 food (Athletes eat a lot)
+1 happiness (entertain the people)
+1 XP for new units (having physically-fit people around gives better military unit strength)


Athletes and Wonders could then generate a Great Athlete:

Settle for +3 happy, +1 XP, +2 culture (don't want to tread on Great Military Instructor)
Discover sports-related technology
Build a Sports building
Start a Golden Age


What do you think?

Yes, I could not quite get the extra specialists to work. :( I do have a Great Athlete units somewhere. Looks like the Hellenic missionary.

Azurian
May 02, 2012, 10:41 PM
Here's an idea I had for Sports buildings: the Athlete specialist. Sports buildings would give you 1 or 2 Athlete slots, and some buildings or Wonders (like Flavian Amphitheatre) would give free Athletes. I think the only issue is placing the specialist on the screen - I seem to remember some difficulty with placing Doctor specialists.

The Athlete specialist would give:

-1 food (Athletes eat a lot)
+1 happiness (entertain the people)
+1 XP for new units (having physically-fit people around gives better military unit strength)


Athletes and Wonders could then generate a Great Athlete:

Settle for +3 happy, +1 XP, +2 culture (don't want to tread on Great Military Instructor)
Discover sports-related technology
Build a Sports building
Start a Golden Age


What do you think?

I think this is a superb idea! In history athletes have been used by the ruling party to entertain the masses. I think the main benefit a Great athlete should provide is happiness and as a secondary role health, since Athletes tend to admire the latest medical advancements of their times to be faster stronger and better.

we can even have Great Doctors who primary role is Health. Since HydromancerX introduced a lot of health buildings this would be a good addition.


The Doctor specialist would give:

+1 Health
+1 XP for new units


Doctors and Wonders could then generate a Great Doctor:

Settle for +3 health, +1 XP, +1 Culture
Discover health technology
Build a health building
Start a Golden Age

Dancing Hoskuld
May 02, 2012, 10:59 PM
I think this is a superb idea! In history athletes have been used by the ruling party to entertain the masses. I think the main benefit a Great athlete should provide is happiness and as a secondary role health, since Athletes tend to admire the latest medical advancements of their times to be faster stronger and better.

we can even have Great Doctors who primary role is Health. Since HydromancerX introduced a lot of health buildings this would be a good addition.


The Doctor specialist would give:

+1 Health
+1 XP for new units


Doctors and Wonders could then generate a Great Doctor:

Settle for +3 health, +1 XP, +1 Culture
Discover health technology
Build a health building
Start a Golden Age


We already have Great Doctors and I have not been able to get the specialists working in C2C as it needs a second column in the city screen. I will have another look.

Koshling
May 03, 2012, 08:15 AM
In my latest game I didn't research the shelter-building track for a long time (beelined trackers, then elder councils, then canine domestication) and just noticed that I had built a dining hall, a village hall, a slaughterhouse, and a butchery, all without knowing how to build the most basic of huts!

This isn't a gameplay problem, just a reality-check one, so I don't feel terribly strongly about it. However, it might be worth considering eitehr mocving shelt-building to a more bottleneck placement on the etch tree, or making all the earlish buildings have it as an AND requirement.

Vokarya
May 03, 2012, 08:25 AM
We already have Great Doctors and I have not been able to get the specialists working in C2C as it needs a second column in the city screen. I will have another look.

Yes, the problem with Great Doctors is we don't have Doctor specialists and very few Great Doctor wonders. The only ones that turn up are the few from technologies. I always really want hang onto my Great Doctors for the Universal Health Care wonder, to build it once I've settled the whole planet.

Vokarya
May 03, 2012, 12:27 PM
@Vokarya

1. Overall those look good. Think the Star Fort should be a bit more expensive though (like 225).

2. I am not exactly sure on the high explosives part. I was always confused on how that worked.

3. Here are the icon/buttons for them.

4. I assume you will be coding then and just using the buttons I posted below?

5. I have some other Dojos I would like to add that will depend upon those buildings. Thus they will not be so useless in the future. I disagree that they should get a bonus to gunpowder units.

On a side note you can always make "Kung Fu Clockwork Golems". :cool:

Okay, I have the Star Fort and Cannon Turret done. I will post it to the New Buildings thread. I did up the Star Fort to 225 hammers. I think these changes need to be made to existing buildings:

Castle is replaced by Star Fort
Ballista Turret is replaced by Cannon Turret
Add Sulphur to the requirements for Cannon Forge
Then (please, please, please...) Siege Weapons Workshop can be replaced by Cannon Forge


Also, if I want to move all of my existing Wonder folders into a single "Wonders" folder with the rest as subfolders, do I need to do anything else for it to work properly? I have created a "Buildings" folder for the Cannon Turret, Star Fort, and a new Highwayman's Hideout I coded.

ls612
May 03, 2012, 04:50 PM
On a side note you can always make "Kung Fu Clockwork Golems". :cool:

Not anymore, I noticed someone else writing about that and thought it a bug that Clock Golems had UNITCOMBAT_MELEE. I changed it to UNITCOMBAT_ROBOT a little while ago, so no more kung fu golems.:p

Sgtslick
May 03, 2012, 04:54 PM
Personally I never build any of the Castle buildings apart from Castles themselves. This is because at this point in the game my research is cranking and they all go obsolete way too fast for me to want to invest hammers into them. Maybe I will rush build one of the buildings that adds to your defense on the turn b4 im gonna be attacked but thats it. Castle building should come earlier imo

Il Principe
May 04, 2012, 12:25 PM
The discussion about fire fighters made me think. Could some buildigns have slightly weaker clones? Like a secondary fire or police department. Or a second hospital ( for the sake of logic... there is enough health in my cities normaly).
This could help with the abundance of crime and flamability you can get in a large modern city.
I would imagine them to cost as much hammers and gold as the originals, but having a sligtly lesser effect at their purpose and only buildable in cities with metropolitan administration.

Dancing Hoskuld
May 04, 2012, 02:28 PM
The discussion about fire fighters made me think. Could some buildigns have slightly weaker clones? Like a secondary fire or police department. Or a second hospital ( for the sake of logic... there is enough health in my cities normaly).
This could help with the abundance of crime and flamability you can get in a large modern city.
I would imagine them to cost as much hammers and gold as the originals, but having a sligtly lesser effect at their purpose and only buildable in cities with metropolitan administration.

Or maybe you have "Police Station" upgrade to "Police Force" when you have metropolitan administration because you now need multiple stations in your city.

Il Principe
May 04, 2012, 02:38 PM
Or maybe you have "Police Station" upgrade to "Police Force" when you have metropolitan administration because you now need multiple stations in your city.

:hammer2: That is of course more elegant, since it reduces clutter in the building list.

Vokarya
May 09, 2012, 10:01 PM
I have a few more suggestions for building tweaks:

Potter's Hut lasts forever. I think Glass Blower or Glass Factory should replace it.

Counter's Hut should be replaced by Officium. Make it a 3-building chain along with Modern Offices.

Mech Assembly Plant should be ADVISOR_MILITARY, not ADVISOR_ECONOMY. One Engineer slot and one Scientist slot do not make an economy building, and its primary use is for building mech units. It might have done something different when it was first introduced, but now it looks more like a purely military building.

Finally, I have an issue with the Toxic Waste Dump showing up too often in the Advisor slots for Growth. I think the only reason for the Toxic Waste Dump is to allow you to build Nuclear Plants, and so it feels redundant once Fusion is available. I don't know if there is a really good solution, but seeing the Dump pop up so often in the advisory queue when I'm deliberately ignoring it is an annoyance.

Flinx
May 10, 2012, 12:19 AM
Already mentioned at another place:
to build guard dogs you need the wardog trainer. I think it would be more appropriate to need a guard dog trainer.

If i replace a castle with a star fort i cannot build city guards and supply trains anymore.
Maybe tweak the star fort to be a real replacement.

Vokarya
May 10, 2012, 09:04 AM
If i replace a castle with a star fort i cannot build city guards and supply trains anymore.
Maybe tweak the star fort to be a real replacement.

This needs a tweak to the City Guard XML, which is not mine so I don't want to mess with it. There is a <PrereqOrBuildings> in the schema, so that should work.

Flinx
May 10, 2012, 09:35 AM
Ok, then there would be still two adjustments to do: one for the city guard and another for the supply train.

Vokarya
May 11, 2012, 01:24 PM
Ok, then there would be still two adjustments to do: one for the city guard and another for the supply train.

Supply Train was moved to Trading Post. City Guard now requires Garrison AND Castle -- I think it was supposed to be moved to just Garrison, but the Garrison is a
<PrereqBuilding> and the Castle is a <PrereqBuildingClasses>, so they are both currently required.

Vokarya
May 11, 2012, 01:36 PM
I had a few more thoughts on when certain buildings should go obsolete.


Brick Mason: Obsolete at Organic Cities. You're not building with traditional bricks anymore.
Mad Scientist's Castle: Obsolete at Thought Scanning. I think it should match up with Insane Asylum.
Mattress Store: Obsolete at Homo Superior. I have a feeling Homo superior would be genetically engineered to no longer need sleep, or at least much less.
Parking Meters: Could go obsolete at either Skyroads or Teleportation. There should come a point when there is no more need for vehicles to be parked.
Plastic Surgery Clinic: Obsolete at Mind Uploading. I think this should match up with Tattoo Parlor.
Seal Maker: Obsolete at Compulsory Education. Once most people can read and write, seals become unnecessary.
Step Reckoner Manufactory: Obsolete at Computers. Even clunky early computers can do better than clockworks.
Tar Pit, Tar Refinery: Obsolete at Skyroads. Tar isn't needed for ships after Paddle Steamer, and Skyroads should make it unnecessary for roads as well.
Tire Factory: Obsolete at Skyroads, like everything else automobile-related.

Flinx
May 11, 2012, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the adjustments! :thumbsup:

Il Principe
May 11, 2012, 01:50 PM
I disagree with you only on the seal maker. although seals as in stamped in wax are more for decoration nowadays, other forms of seals are still important. Think about watersigns on paper money.

JosEPh_II
May 11, 2012, 08:07 PM
Or Notary Public. There are others that still use seals or "stamps" that do the same purpose.

JosEPh

Vokarya
May 11, 2012, 09:48 PM
I disagree with you only on the seal maker. although seals as in stamped in wax are more for decoration nowadays, other forms of seals are still important. Think about watersigns on paper money.

Watermarking paper money belongs to the National Mint. I just think that Prehistoric-/Ancient-Era buildings should go obsolete before the Modern Era. Otherwise, they clutter up the building list.

Maybe the Seal Maker could upgrade to something like Identification Bureau. I'm quite fond of building chains.

Il Principe
May 12, 2012, 02:15 AM
Watermarking paper money belongs to the National Mint. I just think that Prehistoric-/Ancient-Era buildings should go obsolete before the Modern Era. Otherwise, they clutter up the building list.

Maybe the Seal Maker could upgrade to something like Identification Bureau. I'm quite fond of building chains.

So am I :) Joseph mentioned notaries, also a good idea for this particular chain I think.

ls612
May 12, 2012, 01:18 PM
Supply Train was moved to Trading Post. City Guard now requires Garrison AND Castle -- I think it was supposed to be moved to just Garrison, but the Garrison is a
<PrereqBuilding> and the Castle is a <PrereqBuildingClasses>, so they are both currently required.

Oops, thanks for the catch!

BlueGenie
May 13, 2012, 03:58 AM
Potter's Hut lasts forever. I think Glass Blower or Glass Factory should replace it.

We still have pottery/china/ceramic today. Most if not all mugs are made of pottery and there's oven forms, teapots, plant pots, and so on. Glass doesn't replace pottery afaik.

On a different note, Quern comes very early now but still needs Grains, which isn't revealed until Agriculture, and still can't be manufactured until even later.

Cheers

Hydromancerx
May 13, 2012, 05:02 AM
On a different note, Quern comes very early now but still needs Grains, which isn't revealed until Agriculture, and still can't be manufactured until even later.


Yeah I had been meaning to fix that. I will get to it eventually.

Vokarya
May 13, 2012, 09:59 AM
We still have pottery/china/ceramic today. Most if not all mugs are made of pottery and there's oven forms, teapots, plant pots, and so on. Glass doesn't replace pottery afaik.


I just have an issue with the Potter's Hut still being buildable into the Galactic Era. I think it should go obsolete SOMEWHERE. There comes a point where pottery isn't used enough to be representable as a resource; in the Ancient and Classical eras, pottery is very heavily used. In the Modern Era, not so much. I'm leaning towards Plastics being the technology that makes the Potter's Hut obsolete.

BlueGenie
May 13, 2012, 10:40 AM
What about a Ceramic's Factory during the Industrial?
Plastics is also a resource used alongside ceramics of various kinds and isn't quite right for replacing pottery with. Even armour is today being enhanced with ceramic plating, as well as plastic infusions but for different reasons.
Smart Materials could be though. Smart Ceramics for Transhuman Era that is, and for Galactic.
Considering ceramics and pottery I'm not sure it should really ever be replaced, unless humans transcend to a point where they no longer need physical materials.

Cheers

Vokarya
May 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
What about a Ceramic's Factory during the Industrial?
Plastics is also a resource used alongside ceramics of various kinds and isn't quite right for replacing pottery with. Even armour is today being enhanced with ceramic plating, as well as plastic infusions but for different reasons.
Smart Materials could be though. Smart Ceramics for Transhuman Era that is, and for Galactic.
Considering ceramics and pottery I'm not sure it should really ever be replaced, unless humans transcend to a point where they no longer need physical materials.

Cheers

Ceramic plating and pottery vessels are two very different things. The Potter's Hut is an Ancient-era building that needs to be either obsoleted or replaced at some point. It almost needs a two-building chain: one for porcelain, in the early Medieval Era (early Chinese production), and then the Ceramics Factory in the Industrial Era.

BlueGenie
May 13, 2012, 06:12 PM
Potter's Hut's/workplace's must have been around at least until the Industrial Era. Some upgrades along the way might be good though, for instance glazing can come around Glass Making/Blowing and the non-heat conductive use of ceramics it can be set in somewhere. Lots more of course that can be set in but I don't see why one should overdo it with one material and not all others (bamboo for instance).

Easiest as I see it would be replacing Hut with Workshop somewhere along the line, and have that replaced by Factory in the Industrial, renaming it to Ceramic Factory for another upgrade in Modern. As for obsoleting I don't see why, having it replaced should be enough. Besides, come to think of it, we have another ceramic building earlier on too, in Brick Mason at Masonry.

Porcelain manufacturing shouldn't be touched or removed until the very earliest Transhuman Era and Smart Ceramics, preferably Galactic Era, and then the resource Porcelain (is there one?) should still be around giving +1happy face.

Cheers

Vokarya
May 14, 2012, 10:47 AM
I went through the World Wonders to make a list of all their prerequisites and costs to see if we can get a handle on re-costing Wonders. I found there were a bunch of Wonders that have redundant prerequisites (like I did for Technologies). Here's the list if you would like to remove the redundancies (or if there is a reason for them, please let me know).


Alhambra (Requires Divine Right and Engineering): Remove Engineering (Engineering - Surveying - Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Gunpowder - Divine Right)
Ascension Gate (Requires Ascension and Teleportation): Remove Teleportation (Teleportation - Wormhole Traversal - Time Travel - Ascension)
Baray (Requires Canal Systems and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction - Canal Systems)
Bird's Nest Stadium (Requires Mass Media and Modern Sports): Remove Mass Media (Mass Media - Modern Sports)
Flavian Amphitheatre (Requires Construction and Slavery): Remove Slavery (Slavery - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction)
Great Mosque of Desert (Requires Divine Right and Paper): Remove Paper (Paper - Education - Political Philosophy - Divine Right)
Hammam (Requires Canal Systems and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction - Canal Systems)
Hippocratic Oath (Requires Ancient Medicine and Naturopathy): Remove Naturopathy (Naturopathy - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Caste System - Priesthood - Oratory - Code of Laws - Ancient Medicine)
International Dog Show (Requires Biology and Canine Domestication): Remove Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Livestock Domestication - Sedentary Lifestyle - Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Military Training - Feudalism - Guilds - Paper - Printing Press - Scientific Method - Biology)
J. S. Bach's Cathedral (Requires Acoustics and Architecture): Remove Architecture (Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Acoustics)
Lotus Temple (Requires Divine Right and Radio): Remove Divine Right (Divine Right - Mercantilism - Economics - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power - Electricity - Telegraph - Radio)
Piazza San Marco (Requires Code of Laws and Guilds and Literature): Remove Code of Laws (Code of Laws - Feudalism - Guilds)
Pyramids (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Masonry): Remove Ceremonial Burial (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry)
Solar Updraft Tower (Requires Ecology and Megastructure Engineering and Solar Power): Remove Solar Power (Solar Power - Satellites - Globalization - Gene Manipulation - Cloning - Advanced Computers - Superstrong Alloys - Megastructure Engineering)
Terracotta Army (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Monarchy and Pottery): Remove Ceremonial Burial and Pottery (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy, Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy)
The Ishtar Gate (Requires Aesthetics and Glass Blowing and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Glass Blowing)
The Temple of Heaven (Requires Architecture and Divine Right): Remove Architecture (Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Gunpowder - Divine Right)
Topkapi Palace (Requires Feudalism and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Aristocracy - Vassalage - Feudalism)
Valley of the Kings (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Masonry): Remove Ceremonial Burial (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry)

Hydromancerx
May 14, 2012, 06:10 PM
@Vokarya

I think some of these have the techs as a requirement so they are linked to a set of appropriate techs. Such as Pyramids having Ceremonial Burial and Masonry because those are the obvious related techs even if the techs on their own are redundant. Also since techs chnage and move around I do not think it would be wise to change their requirements in case at some point Ceremonial Burial doesn't lead to Masonry.

Vokarya
May 14, 2012, 09:24 PM
@Vokarya

I think some of these have the techs as a requirement so they are linked to a set of appropriate techs. Such as Pyramids having Ceremonial Burial and Masonry because those are the obvious related techs even if the techs on their own are redundant. Also since techs chnage and move around I do not think it would be wise to change their requirements in case at some point Ceremonial Burial doesn't lead to Masonry.

I suspected as such. I just thought I would post it and see if anyone agreed. I think it is only a serious issue when the technologies are several eras apart. For example, with Topkapi Palace requiring Masonry and Feudalism, I don't see anyone getting all the way to Feudalism without either Masonry being required somewhere along the line or researching it easily because it would be so cheap relative to other tech choices before then.

Sgtslick
May 14, 2012, 09:44 PM
Wonders should be all be increased across the board by like 50-70% that would be great! And/or reduce or remove the bonuses you get from stone/marble. ♥

Hydromancerx
May 14, 2012, 10:07 PM
I suspected as such. I just thought I would post it and see if anyone agreed. I think it is only a serious issue when the technologies are several eras apart. For example, with Topkapi Palace requiring Masonry and Feudalism, I don't see anyone getting all the way to Feudalism without either Masonry being required somewhere along the line or researching it easily because it would be so cheap relative to other tech choices before then.

Well there are some I specifically did even if they are redundant such as Ceramic Factory requires Assembly Line and Pottery even though Pottery is far FAR away from Assembly line. This allows one to see pottery related buildings by clicking on pottery tech even if its redundant requirements.

CIVPlayer8
May 15, 2012, 04:12 PM
Another things a lot of wonders need is obsolescence. Most of the new ones don't go obsolete, so they're very powerful.

Kreatur
May 18, 2012, 05:50 PM
the farmscraper replaces every other farms. At least they go obsolete with the technology . so every fruit ore vegetable ore nuts resource is obsolete. Should the skyscraper provide all of this resources instead ? i mean the idea behind the scraper is that there grows every known plant

CIVPlayer8
May 18, 2012, 06:15 PM
Yes, perhaps it actually should. I see no other way of providing the farm resources after so yes, I think the farms taper should provide +1 fruits, nuts, etc.

anunknownman
May 20, 2012, 11:53 AM
just a question, why does the brothel give unhealthines? did people get STD'S back then ??

Thunderbrd
May 20, 2012, 12:30 PM
just a question, why does the brothel give unhealthines? did people get STD'S back then ??

Only AIDS is really a new disease in that arena. Others were not as well spread until the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s until the widespread use of antibiotics brought them back under control. But oh yeah, STDs have been with us for quite some time. In fact, the white wigs and high stiff collars worn during colonial days was largely a fashion brought on that allowed gentlemen to blend in with each other as so many had to cover up the ravaging signals of advanced siphilis, loss of hair, rashes on the neck etc. It was an extremely widespread problem at the time. Going further back, I'm quite certain you'd find STDs have been problematic at all times in human history.

anunknownman
May 20, 2012, 02:49 PM
Only AIDS is really a new disease in that arena. Others were not as well spread until the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s until the widespread use of antibiotics brought them back under control. But oh yeah, STDs have been with us for quite some time. In fact, the white wigs and high stiff collars worn during colonial days was largely a fashion brought on that allowed gentlemen to blend in with each other as so many had to cover up the ravaging signals of advanced siphilis, loss of hair, rashes on the neck etc. It was an extremely widespread problem at the time. Going further back, I'm quite certain you'd find STDs have been problematic at all times in human history.

that is very true, better call a doctor :mischief:

ls612
May 20, 2012, 04:01 PM
Only AIDS is really a new disease in that arena. Others were not as well spread until the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s until the widespread use of antibiotics brought them back under control. But oh yeah, STDs have been with us for quite some time. In fact, the white wigs and high stiff collars worn during colonial days was largely a fashion brought on that allowed gentlemen to blend in with each other as so many had to cover up the ravaging signals of advanced siphilis, loss of hair, rashes on the neck etc. It was an extremely widespread problem at the time. Going further back, I'm quite certain you'd find STDs have been problematic at all times in human history.

Correct. Syphilis caused such devastation to Europe around 1500 that many countries considered outlawing brothels as a public health menace, which is significant because the state at the time got a good cut of the money from such disreputable establishments.

Koshling
May 20, 2012, 04:03 PM
Correct. Syphilis caused such devastation to Europe around 1500 that many countries considered outlawing brothels as a public health menace, which is significant because the state at the time got a good cut of the money from such disreputable establishments.

Though I believe STDs were pretty much unknown in roman times. Not sure why.

Hydromancerx
May 20, 2012, 04:15 PM
Well there is also pubic lice (aka "crabs") which can be sexually transmitted. In fact head lice and pubic lice have been genetically tested and it turns out public lice are more related to gorilla lice than human head lice. They also have used this to track when hominids started loosing body hair since there was a large mostly bare patch of skin between the head and pubic region.

Note that the gorilla lice origin for "crabs" guesses that hominids slept in sleeping nests of gorillas and thus got exposed to the lice, not that they mated with gorillas.

Vokarya
May 25, 2012, 12:42 PM
I noticed we have changed the Manhattan Project into just allowing nukes for the civilization that builds it. I think we should split the Project into two buildings:

THE Manhattan Project: World Wonder, allows nukes + another bonus, far more expensive, has to be built first
National Nuclear Test: National Wonder, allows nukes, cheaper, but someone has to build the Manhattan Project first

I personally liked the idea of "letting the genie out of the bottle" when building the Manhattan Project, but if this is the way we want to go with nuclear weapons, I would like to make the name "Manhattan Project" match up with something unique. The National Nuclear Test would be cheaper because once someone else has built a nuclear weapon, that means nuclear weapons are possible, and the issue becomes re-creating the design. What do you think?

Thunderbrd
May 26, 2012, 01:58 PM
I'd have to give an additional tag for the Manhattan Project that utilizes parts of the old code to grant access not to nukes but to the ability to build the National Nuclear Test on a global basis. Then the National Nuclear Test could utilize the current codes for the Manhattan Project that I'm going to be debugging a bit today.

Since I'm not a building generator (even if I could figure it out...) I'll only code the dll for that if I get someone else concurrently working on the second building.

Alternatively, since it seems a bit redundant, and I understand your naming issue, perhaps we should let the Manhattan Project go completely and just name the building the Nuclear Test Blast or something to that extent and we all just understand that the first time it was performed on Earth was originally the Manhattan Project.

Vokarya
May 26, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'd have to give an additional tag for the Manhattan Project that utilizes parts of the old code to grant access not to nukes but to the ability to build the National Nuclear Test on a global basis. Then the National Nuclear Test could utilize the current codes for the Manhattan Project that I'm going to be debugging a bit today.

Since I'm not a building generator (even if I could figure it out...) I'll only code the dll for that if I get someone else concurrently working on the second building.

Alternatively, since it seems a bit redundant, and I understand your naming issue, perhaps we should let the Manhattan Project go completely and just name the building the Nuclear Test Blast or something to that extent and we all just understand that the first time it was performed on Earth was originally the Manhattan Project.

Actually, all you should have to do is return Manhattan Project to its original status as a Project, and then use the <EveryoneSpecialBuilding> tag and define the National Nuclear Test as a Special Building in a Civ4SpecialBuildingsInfo.xml file. That should grant everyone the ability to build National Nuclear Tests once someone does the heavy theoretical work of the Manhattan Project.

CIVPlayer8
May 26, 2012, 05:50 PM
Sort of like how First Cloned Mammal unlocks Cloning Labrotory for all players.

Vokarya
May 26, 2012, 06:11 PM
Sort of like how First Cloned Mammal unlocks Cloning Labrotory for all players.

Exactly. I was thinking especially how Manhattan Project unlocks Bomb Shelters for all players in regular BTS. We have it changed so that you can build it if you have Civil Engineering and any player has Fission.

Thunderbrd
May 26, 2012, 08:37 PM
Actually, all you should have to do is return Manhattan Project to its original status as a Project, and then use the <EveryoneSpecialBuilding> tag and define the National Nuclear Test as a Special Building in a Civ4SpecialBuildingsInfo.xml file. That should grant everyone the ability to build National Nuclear Tests once someone does the heavy theoretical work of the Manhattan Project.

Ok then its all in the building xmls then. Except that the manhattan project should NOT be given the bAllowsNukes on yes and that should be held aside for the National Nuclear Test. Wouldn't require any further dll work then.

Flinx
May 29, 2012, 08:24 AM
I'd like to build a ball court in any of my cities but there's a hard limit: i do need an aztech embassy, a mayan embassy or an olmec embassy.
I'd rather like to see resources as bonus_aztec, bonus_mayan or bonus_olmec as prereq.

Aside from buildings there are also wonders with embassy prereqs.

I guess this is not intended but a leftover from the first implementation of the goods system before the goods were converted into resourses.

CIVPlayer8
Jun 07, 2012, 09:51 AM
Where has the school of rhetoric gone? :confused: It used to be the only thing you get with Oratory, now you get nothing...

Samin
Jun 07, 2012, 01:48 PM
I'd like to build a ball court in any of my cities but there's a hard limit: i do need an aztech embassy, a mayan embassy or an olmec embassy.
I'd rather like to see resources as bonus_aztec, bonus_mayan or bonus_olmec as prereq.

Aside from buildings there are also wonders with embassy prereqs.

I guess this is not intended but a leftover from the first implementation of the goods system before the goods were converted into resourses.

Another one is Salon (French)

Kreatur
Jun 07, 2012, 02:39 PM
what about the farmscraper now. could it provide resources, it bugged me that you lose every berry, weed, fruit, vegetable ore nut resource when i research vertical farming

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 07, 2012, 05:17 PM
Where has the school of rhetoric gone? :confused: It used to be the only thing you get with Oratory, now you get nothing...

It is part of my Barbarian Diplomacy mod. It got lost but I put it back, I thought, in the SVN.

Johnny Canuck
Jun 08, 2012, 12:38 AM
Quick question - what buildings store food after growth? I've found Storage Pit, Shaman's Hut, Granary, and Modern Granary, but was wondering if there are any more. Alternatively, if there is a quick way I can search this kind of thing myself, please let me know. :)

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 08, 2012, 04:55 PM
Quick question - what buildings store food after growth? I've found Storage Pit, Shaman's Hut, Granary, and Modern Granary, but was wondering if there are any more. Alternatively, if there is a quick way I can search this kind of thing myself, please let me know. :)

There is a bit of code (exe) that could be used to looks at all buildings and get the information you want but it is not documented fully. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10592607&postcount=2599) - I have updated the link in the Modders Guide also.

CiverDan
Jun 09, 2012, 10:57 AM
Why do the Balloon Festival, Balloon Rides etc, provide a commerce bonus instead of gold? Makes these rather powerful. Also, not sure why a Balloon Festival would increase your science output.

Thunderbrd
Jun 09, 2012, 11:13 AM
There is a bit of code (exe) that could be used to looks at all buildings and get the information you want but it is not documented fully. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10592607&postcount=2599) - I have updated the link in the Modders Guide also.

It's worth mentioning though that the filters in the city screens have no selection to pull these up. We're also missing a 'trade' benefiting building filter. I LOVE this filtering feature but those are 2 areas overlooked currently that make it tough to use optimally. I'm wondering if the AI overlooks those areas too as a result - do those kinds of buildings show up on ai priorities at all? They are pretty important. The food storage buildings used to seem to be designated as 'food' buildings for the ai so perhaps the filtering works different for players than it does for establishing ai priorities.

The only other issue with it is that filters sometimes overlooks buildings that are clearly of their particular filtertype... I'm wondering how it manages to do this but I haven't looked at the method AIAndy has employed there enough to get an understanding of the issue.

Koshling
Jun 09, 2012, 11:32 AM
It's worth mentioning though that the filters in the city screens have no selection to pull these up. We're also missing a 'trade' benefiting building filter. I LOVE this filtering feature but those are 2 areas overlooked currently that make it tough to use optimally. I'm wondering if the AI overlooks those areas too as a result - do those kinds of buildings show up on ai priorities at all? They are pretty important. The food storage buildings used to seem to be designated as 'food' buildings for the ai so perhaps the filtering works different for players than it does for establishing ai priorities.

The only other issue with it is that filters sometimes overlooks buildings that are clearly of their particular filtertype... I'm wondering how it manages to do this but I haven't looked at the method AIAndy has employed there enough to get an understanding of the issue.

These filters are not used at all by the AI. It has its own way of prioritising, and it does take accoutn of trade benefits when evaluating gold, production, etc.

AIAndy
Jun 10, 2012, 10:18 AM
It's worth mentioning though that the filters in the city screens have no selection to pull these up. We're also missing a 'trade' benefiting building filter. I LOVE this filtering feature but those are 2 areas overlooked currently that make it tough to use optimally. I'm wondering if the AI overlooks those areas too as a result - do those kinds of buildings show up on ai priorities at all? They are pretty important. The food storage buildings used to seem to be designated as 'food' buildings for the ai so perhaps the filtering works different for players than it does for establishing ai priorities.

The only other issue with it is that filters sometimes overlooks buildings that are clearly of their particular filtertype... I'm wondering how it manages to do this but I haven't looked at the method AIAndy has employed there enough to get an understanding of the issue.
As Koshling mentioned this is entirely separate code from the AI.
Check CvBuildingFilters/CvUnitFilters in the DLL code. You can easily add more filters (or refine the functions that determine if something is to be filtered or not) by adding another filter class there and then also adding a button for it in the main interface python file.

anunknownman
Jun 11, 2012, 03:21 AM
just a quick question, why do the adminstration buildings ie village hall create crime???? is it because of curroption??? but the whole point of adminstration is to make laws not break'em :crazyeye::lol:

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 11, 2012, 04:57 AM
just a quick question, why do the adminstration buildings ie village hall create crime???? is it because of curroption??? but the whole point of adminstration is to make laws not break'em :crazyeye::lol:

As far as I can tell it is because they make existing crime visible. Which means that Newspaper, radio and TV buildings should also create crime.

anunknownman
Jun 11, 2012, 06:29 AM
As far as I can tell it is because they make existing crime visible. Which means that Newspaper, radio and TV buildings should also create crime.

ROFL, so because they make crime visible, they make people commit more crimes????
if that would be the case then it means that:
1)the media is run by anarchists
2)every one who reads newspaper is a criminal, because after reading the newspaper you apperantly feel like commiting crimes :rolleyes:

Hydromancerx
Jun 11, 2012, 07:29 AM
I don't recall who requested it but they were adamant that the Village Hall line should have crime so I added it to them. I personally could go either way or even no crime effect (canceling out each other).

Mutasir
Jun 11, 2012, 08:36 AM
I agree with anunknownman that crime from administration buildings is just counterintuitive...

Samin
Jun 12, 2012, 02:00 AM
I agree with anunknownman that crime from administration buildings is just counterintuitive...

Not only counterintuitive but am I the only one who thinks we currently don't have too few crime buildings? Because added on top of the crime from population there aren't that many ways to deal with crime currently because I think some civics and certain techs lack increased -crime to crime fighting buildings.

Also why do barracks and garrison increase crime? If you argue that way even the police station should increase crime.

I think we should not so much design the crime system as a critical comment on society but more as something that works in a game.

Have crime as a penalty on building that are directly related to the crimes in the game , and increase the amount of crime they cause by them instead of putting +crime on everything because everything somehow causes or can be victim to crime (every store could be robbed, should be +crime, right? Telephone network enables phreaking and scamming, should be +crime, right?).

For example, the bandit hideout style buildings (that late you build crime units) obviously cause crime. That's okay because they give a good gold bonus and some +exp or free promotions, so put some good crime on them. And if balance requires it, add some +crime to certain techs (like gunpowder or other military techs). Cities will inevidable grow and increase crime naturally that way, always keep that in mind.

Civ Fuehrer
Jun 12, 2012, 03:21 AM
&Samin
I believe the crime system is looked at entirely wrong. First and foremost each building should be weighted for crime and anti-crime possibilities and given a percentage modifier appropriately. Then give the city population the base integer crime sum. Then after all that math should come the direct crime-oriented buildings which give + or - integer modifiers to the max crime.

This way the game can (more accurately) simulate crime amounts in a city. For example, take Gothum city from Batman. Gothum would be a city size 54 with a base population crime of 13.5 (quarter of the population) with hundreds of buildings it's brought up to say - 35.1 (260% net crime allowance) then take into consideration of the police which is a fixed value of -5 crime. 30.1 crime sum. Turn this into a ratio with the population and you have a corrupted city of a 55.7% crime rate. Convert this number into something usable in a turn-based game and poof! There is a 55.7% chance of a crime event happening every turn in that city. Now let's say you build a high security prison in Gothum which gives a -20 crime sum BUT requires a 40gold/turn maintenance, you now have an 18.7% crime rate.

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2012, 04:48 AM
Please post any crime ideas/problems in the Crime topic so it can be found easier.

C2C - Crime & Punishment
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=435942

Snofru1
Jun 12, 2012, 02:45 PM
I have found some issues with buildings in the current SVN, please excuse if that has been mentioned before:


Furniture Factory is worse than the building it replaces.
Leather Factory is also worse (production bonus).
Supermarket is worse than the building it replaces.
The Montreal Biodome is said to "span an animal every 5 turns" but nothing happens.
The Capital Administration comes later than the Metropolitan Administration, that means that the capital reaches radius 3 later than other cities - doesnīt make sense to me.
The Landfill is just not worth it: Its downsides are so strong (+1 :mad: , -5 :gold: , flammability, air and water pollution malus) that its boni are way too small. It should have at least 10 :health: and probably a gold bonus, too.

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2012, 06:31 PM
@Snofru1

Furniture Factory is worse than the building it replaces.

Worse in what way? It gives more money as time goes on. However it will give pollution since its a factory. Also the Furniture Workshop eventually goes obsolete. So replacing it before it goes obsolete would save you a loss of money by not having one.

Leather Factory is also worse (production bonus).

This is because its not used as much as it was in ancient times. Newer materials have replaced them.

Supermarket is worse than the building it replaces.

What do you mean? It can do everything the Market and Grocer can do combined plus additional benefits. except for I think 1 :) from a civic.

The Landfill is just not worth it: Its downsides are so strong (+1 , -5 , flammability, air and water pollution malus) that its boni are way too small. It should have at least 10 and probably a gold bonus, too.

Over time the negatives get canceled out. Such as +1 :) from Androids. It should give +4 :health: later. However I could always add some more :health: from techs.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 12, 2012, 09:08 PM
The Montreal Biodome is said to "span an animal every 5 turns" but nothing happens.

It is supposed to be producing tamed animals I will look into it again. Unfortunately I can't test it fully as I don't get that far in the game so need to put it on an earlier tect to test.

The Capital Administration comes later than the Metropolitan Administration, that means that the capital reaches radius 3 later than other cities - doesnīt make sense to me.

It is supposed to come at the same time as metropolitan admin. I will have an in depth look at these.

The Landfill is just not worth it: Its downsides are so strong (+1 :mad: , -5 :gold: , flammability, air and water pollution malus) that its boni are way too small. It should have at least 10 :health: and probably a gold bonus, too.

I agree, they become available in the renaissance but are worse than useless until the post modern.

@Hydro please remove your force over write on the Pharmacy or get it to match what is in Orion Veteran's Health care Mod.

Hydromancerx
Jun 12, 2012, 09:53 PM
@Hydro please remove your force over write on the Pharmacy or get it to match what is in Orion Veteran's Health care Mod.

What were the differences? Civpedia say ...

Pharmacy
Cost: 180
Req Resources: Drugs OR Chemicals OR Smart Medicine
Req Techs: Battlefield Medicine
Replaces: Apothecary Shop
Req City Size: 6

Special Abilities

+2 :health:
-2 :gold:
+1% :gold: with Hemp
+1% :gold: with Opium
+1 :health: with Drugs, Chemicals, Smart Medicine


What needs to be added/changed?

EDIT: I see. You need Peyote and Cocoa added.

Snofru1
Jun 13, 2012, 01:53 AM
I looked a little bit closer on some of the buildings mentioned above.

Furniture Factory:

When I can build it (before plastics) I get a gold malus of around 5 in each city. The problem is that the furniture workshop has a base gold of 7 then (4 initially plus 1 from guilds, machinery and invention) but the furniture factory starts with only 5. I think the furniture factory should also start with 7 gold as it should produce at least as much money as the workshop.

Leather Factory:

I typically get a hammer malus of about 40 in each city when I want to build it. The reason is that it removes the tannery which had hammer boni for salt and wax, plus 15% for land units. I see the point that leather becomes less important in modern times but it doesnīt look good if building a modern leather factory reduces the productivity of a city compared to an ancient tannery. Maybe the tannery shouldnīt have the hammer bonus to start with but instead the leather ressource gives the option to make a building like a handyman hut that has the hammer boni and becomes obsolete in industrial times. The tannery would then only give a small gold bonus plus the leather ressource.

Supermarket:

Market and Grocer each give a base +3 gold (although the sevopedia just says +1 gold) but the supermarket has only +4. Same thing for culture.

Hydromancerx
Jun 13, 2012, 02:46 AM
I am not understand the problem in math ...

Furniture Workshop

+1 :gold:
+1 :gold: from Guilds
+1 :gold: from Machinery
+1 :gold: from Invention
+1% :gold: from Prime Timber


Min Money = +1 :gold:
Max Money = +4 :gold: + 1% :gold:

Furniture Factory

+1 :yuck:
+5 :gold:
+1 :gold: from Plastics
+1 :gold: from Globalization
+1 :gold: from 3D Modeling
+1 :gold: from Rapid Prototyping
+1% :gold: from Wood
+1% :gold: from Bamboo
+1% :gold: from Prime Timber
+1 :) from Dye
+5 Flammability
+5 Per Turn Air Pollution


Min Money = +5 :gold:
Max Money = +9 :gold: + 3% :gold:

Is the %:gold: messing things up?

Because even if you had +4 :gold: + 1% :gold: you would start out with +5 :gold: + 1% :gold: since you would still have Prime Timber. And chances are you would have Wood too, maybe even Bamboo.

Snofru1
Jun 13, 2012, 05:34 AM
I agree that the furniture facture should give at least the same gold, but it doesnīt (at least not in the hover text). And I do have Wood and Bamboo ressources, too!

What is confusing to me: In the buildings list in the city view the furniture workshop says:
+4 :gold: (although itīs only +1 :gold: in the Sevopedia)
+1% :gold: with Prime Timber
+1 :gold: with Guilds
+1 :gold: with Machinery
+1 :gold: with Invention

Do the +4 already include the boni from Guilds etc.? Or are they somehow magically counted twice? That would roughly fit to the -3.74 :gold: that the furniture factory hover indicates.

Hydromancerx
Jun 13, 2012, 06:09 AM
I am not sure. The other modders who control the money code would probably know.

Snofru1
Jun 13, 2012, 12:22 PM
The hover text of Aerodrome says it replaces Aerodrome [sic]. I guess it should instead replace the Airport and the Grand Aerodrome should replace the Aerodrome (which is not indicated).

Johnny Canuck
Jun 17, 2012, 12:02 AM
There is a bit of code (exe) that could be used to looks at all buildings and get the information you want but it is not documented fully. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10592607&postcount=2599) - I have updated the link in the Modders Guide also.

Thanks :) I've downloaded and I've got it to work - a very neat little tool!

Johnny Canuck
Jun 17, 2012, 05:52 PM
I've been taking a look at the buildings that store food, and would like to make a few suggested changes. First, these are the buildings that store growth:

Stores Tech Req Obsoletes At Notes
Icehouse 10% Construction Refrigeration
Storage Pit 10% Gathering Agricultural Eng.
Warehouse 10% Chemistry Planetary Economics
Granary 30% Pottery - Replaces Storage Pit
Mod. Granary 50% Agricultural Eng. - Replaces Granary and Storage Pit
Shaman Hut 25% Shamanism Democracy

Note: There are also two national wonders that store food, but I don't list them here


Put in chronological order, and assuming the buildings are constructed soon after discovery, it would result in the following total food storage percentage over time:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Late Prehistoric 35% Build Shaman Hut
Early Ancient 55% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 65% Build Icehouse
Mid Classical 40% Shaman Hut Obsoletes
Early Renaissance 50% Build Warehouse
Early Industrial 40% Icehouse Obsoletes
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


To me, this progression doesn't make much sense. Why should peak food storage occur in the early Classical era, and why should it drop so much from mid Classical until the Renaissance/Industrial? I'd like to suggest the following tweaks, to 'even out' the progression a bit more:

1. Remove the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut. Even without the bonus, the Shaman Hut provides a lot of benefits that make it very much worth building - +1 Health, +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Gold, +1 Priest Slot.

2. Have the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and reduce the Icehouse food storage percentage to 5%.

This would give the following progression:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Early Ancient 30% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 35% Build Icehouse
Early Renaissance 40% Warehouse Replaces Icehouse
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


Any thoughts?

Vokarya
Jun 17, 2012, 07:12 PM
I've been taking a look at the buildings that store food, and would like to make a few suggested changes. First, these are the buildings that store growth:

Stores Tech Req Obsoletes At Notes
Icehouse 10% Construction Refrigeration
Storage Pit 10% Gathering Agricultural Eng.
Warehouse 10% Chemistry Planetary Economics
Granary 30% Pottery - Replaces Storage Pit
Mod. Granary 50% Agricultural Eng. - Replaces Granary and Storage Pit
Shaman Hut 25% Shamanism Democracy

Note: There are also two national wonders that store food, but I don't list them here


Put in chronological order, and assuming the buildings are constructed soon after discovery, it would result in the following total food storage percentage over time:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Late Prehistoric 35% Build Shaman Hut
Early Ancient 55% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 65% Build Icehouse
Mid Classical 40% Shaman Hut Obsoletes
Early Renaissance 50% Build Warehouse
Early Industrial 40% Icehouse Obsoletes
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


To me, this progression doesn't make much sense. Why should peak food storage occur in the early Classical era, and why should it drop so much from mid Classical until the Renaissance/Industrial? I'd like to suggest the following tweaks, to 'even out' the progression a bit more:

1. Remove the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut. Even without the bonus, the Shaman Hut provides a lot of benefits that make it very much worth building - +1 Health, +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Gold, +1 Priest Slot.

2. Have the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and reduce the Icehouse food storage percentage to 5%.

This would give the following progression:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Early Ancient 30% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 35% Build Icehouse
Early Renaissance 40% Warehouse Replaces Icehouse
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


Any thoughts?

That looks okay to me. I agree with removing the food storage from Shaman Hut - I have never quite understood how that building fits in.

What should happen at Planetary Economics when the Warehouse goes obsolete? The Modern Granary never obsoletes. Should there be another building there to pick up the combination?

Hydromancerx
Jun 18, 2012, 04:47 AM
I like those ideas. Shaman's Hut was not my building and has been in the mod for a long time (maybe even RoM/AND). I would not mind changing it.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 18, 2012, 04:51 AM
@Johnny Canuck I like your thinking.

I like those ideas. Shaman's Hut was not my building and has been in the mod for a long time (maybe even RoM/AND). I would not mind changing it.

Shaman's Hut is from the inclusion of Shamanism and rewriting of Shinto religion - early C2C. IE it was one of mine but has gone out of the religion area. I have no objections.

Thunderbrd
Jun 18, 2012, 08:47 PM
That looks like some really good thinking there to me. I think there's some other areas and building purpose lines that could use some similar analyses.

Johnny Canuck
Jun 19, 2012, 03:27 PM
What should happen at Planetary Economics when the Warehouse goes obsolete? The Modern Granary never obsoletes. Should there be another building there to pick up the combination?

Yeah, there should probably be some final building to follow the Warehouse, though I don't know what it would be. I presume something would be included as buildings are added for the future era?

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 19, 2012, 04:31 PM
Is someone going to volunteer to do this, or are we going to just say it is a good idea and assume someone else will. I can't, I am off on family stuff for a couple of weeks or so.

JosEPh_II
Jun 19, 2012, 06:05 PM
The Icehouse was developed for the polar regions to help cities founded there. It once upon a time had a limit on how far towards the equator it could be built from the polar/tundra regions on the map. It was not allowed to be built in the Equator region originally. But somewhere along the line it was allowed to be built anywhere.

If the restriction on Where it can be built was added back on then your list could still use it instead of eliminating it.

There are time I need the icehouse as much for it's +1 health as I do it's meager 10% food storage. Also cutting it down to 5% is too drastic, just like the Boat builders bldg (only 5% on trade, it's virtually worthless even early game).

Put the longitude restrictions back on Icehouse and it's only then available for polar/tundra cities. And would only impact them.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 19, 2012, 06:25 PM
The Icehouse was developed for the polar regions to help cities founded there. It once upon a time had a limit on how far towards the equator it could be built from the polar/tundra regions on the map. It was not allowed to be built in the Equator region originally. But somewhere along the line it was allowed to be built anywhere.

If the restriction on Where it can be built was added back on then your list could still use it instead of eliminating it.

There are time I need the icehouse as much for it's +1 health as I do it's meager 10% food storage. Also cutting it down to 5% is too drastic, just like the Boat builders bldg (only 5% on trade, it's virtually worthless even early game).

Put the longitude restrictions back on Icehouse and it's only then available for polar/tundra cities. And would only impact them.

JosEPh

There are two types of ice house, those that store ice for use in the other which is used to store foodstuffs. As I understood it the Ice house in C2C restricted because it was the former and the latter. the restriction though was to places which had snow in winter or mountainous regions. So not 0-30 degrees unless there were mountains (or gold) in the city vicinity. Gold because gold rush towns often imported ice. Actually the Persian empirors were known to in ancient/classical times. With the invention of the ice making machine ice could be made anywhere. then came electricity and later refrigeration.

So I would suggest Icehouse restricted to 35-90 degrees OR mountains OR gold in vicinity OR palace. At machinery remove all the limits

Johnny Canuck
Jun 19, 2012, 07:22 PM
Is someone going to volunteer to do this, or are we going to just say it is a good idea and assume someone else will. I can't, I am off on family stuff for a couple of weeks or so.

Hydromancerx has already done it SVN - rev. 2926 made the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and rev. 2927 removed the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut.

Koshling
Jun 19, 2012, 08:47 PM
There are two types of ice house, those that store ice for use in the other which is used to store foodstuffs. As I understood it the Ice house in C2C restricted because it was the former and the latter. the restriction though was to places which had snow in winter or mountainous regions. So not 0-30 degrees unless there were mountains (or gold) in the city vicinity. Gold because gold rush towns often imported ice. Actually the Persian empirors were known to in ancient/classical times. With the invention of the ice making machine ice could be made anywhere. then came electricity and later refrigeration.

So I would suggest Icehouse restricted to 35-90 degrees OR mountains OR gold in vicinity OR palace. At machinery remove all the limits

At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 19, 2012, 09:16 PM
At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

The ice machine is a fairly simple machine. It does not use electricity. I have only seen a hand operated one with a wheel you turn for ages to get a block of ice out. perhaps machinery is a bit early but it should be before steam power.

Koshling
Jun 19, 2012, 09:24 PM
The ice machine is a fairly simple machine. It does not use electricity. I have only seen a hand operated one with a wheel you turn for ages to get a block of ice out. perhaps machinery is a bit early but it should be before steam power.

How about invention?

Hydromancerx
Jun 19, 2012, 10:46 PM
At machinery? Surely refrigeration - how does basic machinery (windmills etc) help provision ice near the equator?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_%28building%29

And I believe its the machinery needed to build the ice house. Basically its a giant thermos to insulate the ice and snow from the outside world. One can store up ice and snow during the winter and have it for when its warm OR ship it from polar locations or high elevations (which was big business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade) back in the day).

AIAndy
Jun 20, 2012, 12:20 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_%28building%29

And I believe its the machinery needed to build the ice house. Basically its a giant thermos to insulate the ice and snow from the outside world. One can store up ice and snow during the winter and have it for when its warm OR ship it from polar locations or high elevations (which was big business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade) back in the day).
You don't need machinery to make the storage type ice house like the Yakhchals the ancient Persians made: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhchal

Hydromancerx
Jun 20, 2012, 01:15 AM
I don't know then. :dunno:

MaXimillionZero
Jun 20, 2012, 07:51 AM
You don't need machinery to make the storage type ice house like the Yakhchals the ancient Persians made: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhchal

Masonry would probably be more appropriate.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jun 20, 2012, 04:22 PM
Masonry and cold winter or mountains st start with. Palace or gold in vicinity optional.
Invention (or Steam Power) was when the limit on where it could be built should be lifted.

Hydromancerx
Jun 20, 2012, 04:57 PM
Masonry and cold winter or mountains st start with. Palace or gold in vicinity optional.
Invention (or Steam Power) was when the limit on where it could be built should be lifted.

How do you code for that? Meaning how do you have a placement limit and then remove the limit at a tech?

Thunderbrd
Jun 21, 2012, 09:43 PM
How do you code for that? Meaning how do you have a placement limit and then remove the limit at a tech?

Shouldn't AIAndy's new coding allow for that? Might be a bit complex but should be doable, no?

Astax
Jun 21, 2012, 10:04 PM
Can we fix up the glassware place? Im tired of being prompted to build it in every city. Same for siege workshop. Either make it useful in all cities, or make it so it's not recommended everywhere.

Thunderbrd
Jun 21, 2012, 10:51 PM
@Hydro:
I strongly suggest adjusting the training style buildings a bit. We have a good idea going with the way Asatru temples and such increase the training costs on units the extra xp benefits go towards. For purposes of game balance (especially in light of some upcoming changes), I recommend that we add about 5% build costs per bonus XP on unitclass types being granted xp bonuses by intentional training methods such as barracks.

The balance concept should be sound, the longer you train your units, the more xp they get, and vice versa. Soon, this will be important to observe I think. This does give a nation a benefit for NOT building such military training buildings... opting for cheap quantity over expensive quality, but in general, the ai shouldn't see the difference, still giving preference to constructing the training buildings rather than not.

Hydromancerx
Jun 22, 2012, 12:52 AM
@Hydro:
I strongly suggest adjusting the training style buildings a bit. We have a good idea going with the way Asatru temples and such increase the training costs on units the extra xp benefits go towards. For purposes of game balance (especially in light of some upcoming changes), I recommend that we add about 5% build costs per bonus XP on unitclass types being granted xp bonuses by intentional training methods such as barracks.

The balance concept should be sound, the longer you train your units, the more xp they get, and vice versa. Soon, this will be important to observe I think. This does give a nation a benefit for NOT building such military training buildings... opting for cheap quantity over expensive quality, but in general, the ai shouldn't see the difference, still giving preference to constructing the training buildings rather than not.

If I understand you right you want the XP giving buildings such as Barracks and Garrisons to be more expensive to build? Or do you want units to take longer to train?

AIAndy
Jun 22, 2012, 01:50 AM
If I understand you right you want the XP giving buildings such as Barracks and Garrisons to be more expensive to build? Or do you want units to take longer to train?
I think he wants the second. More experienced units taking longer to train.

Thunderbrd
Jun 22, 2012, 02:09 AM
Exactly, longer to train. Thus if a Riding unit gains +2XP from, say, the Barracks, then the Barracks should also make that unit take 10% longer to train.

Hydromancerx
Jun 22, 2012, 03:49 AM
Won't it cause some weird stuff like slower military production on a Naval Academy will cause land units to train slower even though the sea units get XP?

Samin
Jun 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
Won't it cause some weird stuff like slower military production on a Naval Academy will cause land units to train slower even though the sea units get XP?

Docks give production bonus to boats only so the opposite (production malus for boats only) should work too, right?

Koshling
Jun 22, 2012, 07:44 AM
Exactly, longer to train. Thus if a Riding unit gains +2XP from, say, the Barracks, then the Barracks should also make that unit take 10% longer to train.

hmm. I see the (real life) reasoning here, but I'm not so sure in gameplay terms. f I had a bunch of such buildings (your military center typically tries to get a set after all) then slowdown would be substantial. If I need units fast for an emergency I'd then want a way to buuild the unpromoted variant and not have the penalty (which again is real-life reasonable - just curtail their training). This would requier an extra mechanic to accomodate (a new hurry category maybe that allows a part-produced unit to be hurried at its current training state once you have accumulated at least the base unit production worth of hammers).

Not sure it's worth the effort. Would require AI work also.

Thunderbrd
Jun 22, 2012, 08:00 PM
Won't it cause some weird stuff like slower military production on a Naval Academy will cause land units to train slower even though the sea units get XP?

hmm. I see the (real life) reasoning here, but I'm not so sure in gameplay terms. f I had a bunch of such buildings (your military center typically tries to get a set after all) then slowdown would be substantial. If I need units fast for an emergency I'd then want a way to buuild the unpromoted variant and not have the penalty (which again is real-life reasonable - just curtail their training). This would requier an extra mechanic to accomodate (a new hurry category maybe that allows a part-produced unit to be hurried at its current training state once you have accumulated at least the base unit production worth of hammers).

Not sure it's worth the effort. Would require AI work also.

Well, I'm only talking about those modifiers that manipulate xps for combat classes only. This is because with additional combat classes on a singular unit, they can double up and get a substantial amount of xp and while this is balanced by the fact that so many anti-combat class promotions and abilities would affect them cumulatively as well, it seems rational to make those few units that have multiple combat classes that would be gaining xp from your buildings take a bit longer to build. This is one conceived balance factor that can help there.

Additionally, I was thinking that there are already two ways to address your concerns there Koshling: 1) drafting - pops out units without training at all, and 2) you CAN destroy those buildings if you're really desperate. What you mentioned was an interesting option too which might be a good idea to introduce eventually anyhow. (as a toggled option it could work in nicely with those yes/no proclamations page options Hydro and I were discussing earlier...)

But since we're only talking about specific unitclass xp bonuses (not generic xp bonuses such as are earned by military instructors in the city and such, or bonuses for land or sea units) I don't think the penalty will amount to all that much, and if its too extreme, perhaps something less than 5% could be considered.

Hydromancerx
Jun 22, 2012, 09:23 PM
@Thunderbrd

How about this. You find all the buildings you think need changing and then we work on them on an individual basis. For instance the Arena gives unit XP however I do not think that it would slow down things because an arena is not a formal military training building.

Thunderbrd
Jun 22, 2012, 09:26 PM
Exactly. So we're just talking about the barracks and such where they target only specific unitclasses. I suppose the easiest way to find them all would be to play through a bit and make some notes as to which ones to update. I just wanted to suggest it as a heads up. If you run across such buildings in your travels, an update here and there could be helpful. I haven't touched building files much.

Koshling
Jun 23, 2012, 07:52 AM
Exactly. So we're just talking about the barracks and such where they target only specific unitclasses. I suppose the easiest way to find them all would be to play through a bit and make some notes as to which ones to update. I just wanted to suggest it as a heads up. If you run across such buildings in your travels, an update here and there could be helpful. I haven't touched building files much.

Would you ever not build these buildings because of this change? If not then it doesn't effect any game decision so how does it help gameplay? If you would, then how do you propose to modify the AI to take account of it? This is a game, not a sim.

Thunderbrd
Jun 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
Good questions.

I would think that there might be times when an AI wouldn't build them due to the adjustment, but not myself as a player. The AI classically favors quantity over quality as it is, quite happy to build troops in any city it can regardless of the kind of troops those cities end up producing.

As a player with my particular playstyle, I value the quality of my troops over just about every other consideration. For me, even tech and population growth will often take a backseat to xp bonuses. If I'm that hard off for troops that somehow quality means more than quantity then I'm buying them or slaving them and not waiting regardless of the cost.

A change doesn't have to necessarily affect decisions, but in some cases, just the consequences of those decisions. Many decisions in Civ are neither right nor wrong, just a judgment call and this would certainly follow suit.

I believe there would already be an inherited ability for the ai to evaluate the adjustment where the ai would consider that there is a slight delay imposed on their troop builds by building this. I would hope, without immediately reviewing the code, that they would still 'feel', as I, a human player feels, that making their troops a bit more expensive in exchange for XP benefit is more than worth it. This is to the point that if the AI doesn't take it into account and operates as normal, then that, too, is just fine.

What it SHOULD adjust a bit, and I'm thinking that it would be again an inherited consideration into the current coding, is the way it evaluates the desirability of building some units over others for particular roles. I believe it already considers the build costs of units vs their benefits no? We may need to teach it there's a benefit to troops that, as a result of this adjustment, cost a bit more to build, but since the verdict is still out on whether such troops would be 'better due to receiving double ups on xp bonuses' or 'worse due to extra vulnerabilities', especially with an adjustment of this nature (meaning the buildings adding production costs to the units) tending to weight that consideration towards 'better', than its hard to quite say yet if the ai should really have much of a weight adjustment improvement over what it already evaluates.

Without a herculean effort in coding, the AI will never consider everything to quite the depth players can. I'd say human personality would play more of a role in how this change would affect their play decisions and perhaps the same could be built into the AI decision making. In fact, this highlights the fact that many ai determinations are not made currently in light of various personality based strategies, but could eventually be made to. If the leaderheads defined themselves as a Quality Troop Priority, a Quantity Troop Priority, or a balance in between, it could be taken into consideration when looking at how to interact with xp sources and any consequences they may deliver as well.

This reminds me... I've been considering a project down the road that I'd most certainly want your help with (so we're talking WAAAAAAY down the road) that makes it possible for players to play against ai personalities that represent the various members of the mod team that have been playing long enough to be able to proceduralize their game decisions in all areas.

Koshling
Jun 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
Good questions.

I would think that there might be times when an AI wouldn't build them due to the adjustment, but not myself as a player. The AI classically favors quantity over quality as it is, quite happy to build troops in any city it can regardless of the kind of troops those cities end up producing.
Not since V23. Instead of just building the units it wants in any old city it now puts them out for tender and has the most appropriate city build them (which takes account of promotions it will be created with)

I believe there would already be an inherited ability for the ai to evaluate the adjustment where the ai would consider that there is a slight delay imposed on their troop builds by building this. I would hope, without immediately reviewing the code, that they would still 'feel', as I, a human player feels, that making their troops a bit more expensive in exchange for XP benefit is more than worth it. This is to the point that if the AI doesn't take it into account and operates as normal, then that, too, is just fine.

Not really. It onl understands such modifier as making he building more or less valuable (less in this case), so it will simply mean it wont build it as quickly as it did before if it has any effect. It won't have a differential effect depending on the wider context the city is in.

Hydromancerx
Jun 23, 2012, 04:40 PM
This reminds me... I've been considering a project down the road that I'd most certainly want your help with (so we're talking WAAAAAAY down the road) that makes it possible for players to play against ai personalities that represent the various members of the mod team that have been playing long enough to be able to proceduralize their game decisions in all areas.

In the short term it might be cool to make a modular C2C Team civ with C2C Team Leaderheads.

KingArthur666
Jun 23, 2012, 06:36 PM
I've been taking a look at the buildings that store food, and would like to make a few suggested changes. First, these are the buildings that store growth:

Stores Tech Req Obsoletes At Notes
Icehouse 10% Construction Refrigeration
Storage Pit 10% Gathering Agricultural Eng.
Warehouse 10% Chemistry Planetary Economics
Granary 30% Pottery - Replaces Storage Pit
Mod. Granary 50% Agricultural Eng. - Replaces Granary and Storage Pit
Shaman Hut 25% Shamanism Democracy

Note: There are also two national wonders that store food, but I don't list them here


Put in chronological order, and assuming the buildings are constructed soon after discovery, it would result in the following total food storage percentage over time:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Late Prehistoric 35% Build Shaman Hut
Early Ancient 55% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 65% Build Icehouse
Mid Classical 40% Shaman Hut Obsoletes
Early Renaissance 50% Build Warehouse
Early Industrial 40% Icehouse Obsoletes
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


To me, this progression doesn't make much sense. Why should peak food storage occur in the early Classical era, and why should it drop so much from mid Classical until the Renaissance/Industrial? I'd like to suggest the following tweaks, to 'even out' the progression a bit more:

1. Remove the food storage bonus from the Shaman Hut. Even without the bonus, the Shaman Hut provides a lot of benefits that make it very much worth building - +1 Health, +1 Food, +1 Culture, +1 Gold, +1 Priest Slot.

2. Have the Warehouse replace the Icehouse, and reduce the Icehouse food storage percentage to 5%.

This would give the following progression:

Storage Change
Early Prehistoric 10% Build Storage Pit
Early Ancient 30% Granary Replaces Storage Pit
Early Classical 35% Build Icehouse
Early Renaissance 40% Warehouse Replaces Icehouse
Mid Industrial 60% Mod. Granary Replaces Granary


Any thoughts?

Dang! I came a bit late to this discussion. I'll go ahead and throw in my two cents. When I read this I was thinking, good, good... But then I remember Civics. Many civics change the amount of food required for growth. As your tech progresses cities require less food to grow, thus storage needs might not be as important. Something to consider.

Thunderbrd
Jun 24, 2012, 03:44 AM
Not since V23. Instead of just building the units it wants in any old city it now puts them out for tender and has the most appropriate city build them (which takes account of promotions it will be created with)


Not really. It onl understands such modifier as making he building more or less valuable (less in this case), so it will simply mean it wont build it as quickly as it did before if it has any effect. It won't have a differential effect depending on the wider context the city is in.
On that first matter, WELL DONE!!! I'd like to shake your hand there ;) Been wishing for that kind of adaptation for a long time!

On the second, that seems appropriate enough a response from the ai to me. At least for now. I still like your idea of giving cities the ability to build troops faster if they forgo some xp bonuses though... something to work on down the line I say. It's inspired me to consider something of a slider that reduces xp bonuses by a percentage to decrease unit costs by a percentage... hmm... or maybe just an all or nothing setting.

In the short term it might be cool to make a modular C2C Team civ with C2C Team Leaderheads.

Completely agreed!

Kreatur
Jun 30, 2012, 08:16 AM
the megafarm could need the resource fetiliser to be build.
The invention of chemical fertiliser which is basically the C2C resource fetiliser enables the big food production bonuses the magafarm produce

Camber
Jul 01, 2012, 01:51 PM
Bullion cannot be produced after Steel Mills have been built, because Steel Mill replaces Foundry and Forge, and Foundry or Forge is required for construction of the Bullion-producing buildings. Could they be changed to require Forge, Foundry, or Manufacturing Plant (or some other appropriate building? I know Steel Mill probably wouldn't make sense, but a compromise building could probably be found).

Astax
Jul 01, 2012, 09:04 PM
ummm or steel-mill....

Camber
Jul 04, 2012, 01:11 PM
Steel Mill would be an option, but it may not be a logical choice (since steel mills tend to be rather specialized IRL). I don't care really, as long as I can build steel mills and still have bullion available in the modern era.

I've noticed a problem with Libraries and Universities not being produced by a majority of AI civs in my modern-era start games. I was wondering about the reason, and found that the requirements are very lenient: if the nation just has paper (books aren't even required), then they can be built. I don't know how to encourage this, but lack of research makes them fall very far behind. Maybe they just work so hard on building other things (probably military) that they neglect research-producing buildings.

Mutasir
Jul 05, 2012, 08:59 AM
Church of State building now comes with Enlightenment tech, which doesn't really make much sense. In the tech text it is emphasized that it is connected with critique of state's transgressions, while in the building's description it is said that it makes people stop questioning how goverment works, right or wrong. Maybe it should go to Nationalism tech ?

EDIT: I also find it somewhat strange that Post Office from Social Contract tech NEVER goes absolete (even in transhuman).

CiverDan
Jul 06, 2012, 01:40 PM
The transhuman era is a work in progress still. Most of the techs still do do anything. My thoughts of some existing buildings:

Shouldn't the balloon "buildings" be giving gold and not commerce? Since commerce=science generally (unless you are running a low tech rate). I don't see why a balloon ride should help with science. Was a bit funny that I lost 300k science discovering Skyroads due to the balloon stuff going obsolete.

Online University is OP. Build it in 20 cities and all cities get +100% science. I would knock it down to 1-2% in all cities per building.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 06, 2012, 05:57 PM
Shouldn't the balloon "buildings" be giving gold and not commerce? Since commerce=science generally (unless you are running a low tech rate). I don't see why a balloon ride should help with science. Was a bit funny that I lost 300k science discovering Skyroads due to the balloon stuff going obsolete.

I am always getting those two mixed up, gold and commerce. I will put a fix on the beta (SVN) soon.

BlueGenie
Jul 07, 2012, 05:06 AM
I have a suggestion for Elder Council, basically an idea of a possibly better way to deal with it going obsolete:
Considering what the Elder Council is, a gathering of elders that are considered wise, I feel that the closest thing resembling it would be a Monastery. Thus the Monasteries could replace the Elder Council while having the Elder Council not go obsolete (at least until a lot further along in the game).
This could mean having to tweak the Elder Council slightly as +25% research is a lot. With the new :science: giving buildings in Pre-historic I feel reducing it to +10% research to match the first Monastery replacing it would be perfectly al-right and not reduce science during the Pre-historic notably. The +1 (and later +2):science: can be removed by Writing though, so that Elder Council gets the same effect that the Myths currently enjoy, reduced scientific worth.
(( Numbers, if having 300:science: per turn you would go down to 266:science: (11.112% reduction) as the removed 15% would be on the base, not the total, so only around 10% reduction. ))

This way Writing Technology would not take as big a :science: hit as it currently does and Meditation for Monasteries is not that far off from Writing anyway so the Elder Council should become replaced soon after anyway.

Cheers

Camber
Jul 07, 2012, 07:47 AM
Dye Maker: could it produce a dye substitute, similar to how Synthetic Rubber can replace Rubber? There are many ingredients to Dye that could be possible requirements, such as Fine Clay, Oil, Flowers, Shellfish, Chemicals, Berries, and Vegetables. Each of these could add a small gold bonus to the building, with end product (call it Dye if you want simplicity, but other good ones could be Pigment, Ink, or Paints) being a substitute wherever Dye is required.

Colosseum: I noticed that it upgrades to Minor League Stadium, but Olympic Games wonder requires x number of Colosseums, and that on advanced start games of the Modern Era or later, the AI doesn't build Colosseums usually. Could you have Olympic Games require x number of Colosseums or Minor League Stadiums?

Hydromancerx
Jul 07, 2012, 05:36 PM
@Camber

1. Dye is going to get an overhaul eventually. Just have not got around to doing it yet.

2. RoM/AND use to have Ancient Olympics vs Modern Olympics. Perhaps we should bring that back.

ls612
Jul 07, 2012, 07:25 PM
2. RoM/AND use to have Ancient Olympics vs Modern Olympics. Perhaps we should bring that back.

We should make a special wonder, the London 2012 Olympics, and remove it after the games are over, as a treat/easter egg.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 07, 2012, 07:33 PM
The current Olympic Games wonder represents the ancient one and all the other ancient ones from other cultures. We may need a modern one at Nationalism.

Hydromancerx
Jul 07, 2012, 08:25 PM
The current Olympic Games wonder represents the ancient one and all the other ancient ones from other cultures. We may need a modern one at Nationalism.

That's what I was suggesting. However the RoM/AND one would move from city to city through an event system. I have no idea how to do that.

Also the World's Fair wonder would do the same thing.

jmmendesp
Jul 09, 2012, 09:03 AM
I would like to report a bug about one of the buildings.

The sound the brewery makes when it's built - it makes me too damn thirsty!!

EDIT - :lol:

jmmendesp
Jul 11, 2012, 04:14 AM
Alright, this may be a dumb question, but - how do we queue up more than 2 buildings in a city?

Sgtslick
Jul 11, 2012, 05:18 AM
Shift left click adds it to the queue, control left click add it to the TOP of the queue. You need to zoom into city forgot to mention this. Like when you get the production complete- zoom into the city, hold down shift and click away.
Also once your happy with the build queue you can save it:- Control 1, or 2-9 as well. Control groups work separately for units too, so you can control group a single unit or group of unit as control 1 and a build queue as control 1 and both with exist.

Alt left click to select all is a nice trick for anyone not aware of it. You can select all units on a tile, you can also select all city bars at once with alt left click too, for example you can alt left click city bar and set a rally point to somewhere with shift right click on a tile.

Another tip, in the f1 menu (i think its f1, with the list of cities). You can click on your capital, then shift click on the bottom of the list (highlighting them all), then you can control left click a building or unit to build at the TOP of ALL build queues, or shift left click obviously works too to add it to the bottom. This is handy when you get a new building that you want to build in all cities right away.

Another one I forgot, similar to alt-left click which selects all units on a tile, control-left click on a unit will select all units of that type in the tile. So if you want to isolate all your horseman, control-left click.

jmmendesp
Jul 11, 2012, 05:24 AM
Shift left click adds it to the queue, control left click add it to the TOP of the queue. You need to zoom into city forgot to mention this. Like when you get the production complete- zoom into the city, hold down shift and click away.
Also once your happy with the build queue you can save it:- Control 1, or 2-9 as well. Control groups work separately for units too, so you can control group a single unit or group of unit as control 1 and a build queue as control 1 and both with exist.

Thanks a lot, you saved me so much time :)

ls612
Jul 14, 2012, 02:34 PM
I have two issues so far with the prehistoric era.

1. The Creation Myth and an earlier building (knowledge inheritance?) are exactly the same stat-wise, ie same benefits and cost. This is bad, buildings should be slightly more unique.

2. The Dining hall is OP. +2 Food and +1 Health on one building that early in the prehistoric era is a bit too much, I'd remove the health bonus if it was up to me.

Koshling
Jul 14, 2012, 08:47 PM
I have two issues so far with the prehistoric era.

2. The Dining hall is OP. +2 Food and +1 Health on one building that early in the prehistoric era is a bit too much, I'd remove the health bonus if it was up to me.

Cough cough. Stone tools workshop anyone?

CIVPlayer8
Jul 15, 2012, 12:28 AM
Cough cough. Stone tools workshop anyone?

Didn't someone suggest making replacements for this building, like it would be replace d by bronze tool workshop, iron tool workshop, all the way to power tools... We should do this.

Sgtslick
Jul 15, 2012, 02:07 AM
I thought stone tools workshop was just gonna go obsolete at monolith construction (earlier than it does now), this is a nerf in other words.

Snofru1
Jul 15, 2012, 03:30 AM
The Garbage Dock needs some tweeking. Who would really want to build this?

LumenAngel
Jul 15, 2012, 12:25 PM
True, a "no Unhealth from population" is the least for these malus

JosEPh_II
Jul 15, 2012, 02:04 PM
Cough cough. Stone tools workshop anyone?

I believe that's been nerfed already. At least I'm not getting 10 hammers any more. So something changed.

The only real problem with Dining Hall is that it comes to early. It's shouldn't be a Preh Era Bldg but an Ancient Era.

And the Fisherman's hut, boy is it virtually worthless now, one of those filler +1gold bldgs. It's lost it's original meaning and status.

And why do Bandit Footpads cost 5 Gold/turn And Bandit Riders too?!! No wonder the AI doesn't build them anymore. And I would bet most players now don't either. Not with having to pay 2 Gold for Town Watchmen to keep your Crime levels down.

JosEPh

Hydromancerx
Jul 15, 2012, 04:28 PM
True, a "no Unhealth from population" is the least for these malus

That's not a bad idea. Especially since that's one of the worst Garbage civics to have.

Hydromancerx
Jul 15, 2012, 04:30 PM
And the Fisherman's hut, boy is it virtually worthless now, one of those filler +1gold bldgs. It's lost it's original meaning and status.


Fisherman's Hut was split up into 2 buildings, Fisherman's Hut and Fishmonger.

PsiCorps
Jul 15, 2012, 04:59 PM
Dancing Hoskuld said in another thread Not sure what Stoneworker's hut should upgrade to.
I don't know if this has already been covered anywhere else but I suggested the following Upgrade it to a Stone Mason which should be good up to say the Renaissance period where it could becomes a Stone Workshop that also produces works of art and after that it could then be upgraded to a Stone Artists Studio. as a possible chain of upgrades for it.

Hydromancerx
Jul 15, 2012, 05:02 PM
But even if it did it still would give a huge defect in its upgrade. No one would want to upgrade it and ultimately put it off until it went obsolete.

JosEPh_II
Jul 15, 2012, 07:02 PM
Fisherman's Hut was split up into 2 buildings, Fisherman's Hut and Fishmonger.

I know.

I just preferred the old hut as a single building, but able to be built on rivers as well as the coast. One less choice.

JosEPh

CIVPlayer8
Jul 16, 2012, 01:31 PM
Is it possible for civics to change the production/culture of a building?

Il Principe
Jul 17, 2012, 02:05 AM
After a long broken laptop break I finally got to play again, and noticed, that the vaccine center ( or was it called lab?) got no influence on disease rating.
I think it should have a rather heavy one, since vaccines do a lot more to keep diseases in check then letīs say a dentist.

Hydromancerx
Jul 17, 2012, 02:33 AM
After a long broken laptop break I finally got to play again, and noticed, that the vaccine center ( or was it called lab?) got no influence on disease rating.
I think it should have a rather heavy one, since vaccines do a lot more to keep diseases in check then letīs say a dentist.

The disease system is not finished yet. You can see the rate but there are no Disease in place yet. Once all the +/- disease rates are applied to buildings like the vaccine center then I will add the disease buildings.

Il Principe
Jul 17, 2012, 03:56 AM
I knew that, since the SVN log did not mention the implementation of the actual diseases yet. I just assumed you were done with the buildings, sorry.

AIAndy
Jul 17, 2012, 04:04 AM
The disease system is not finished yet. You can see the rate but there are no Disease in place yet. Once all the +/- disease rates are applied to buildings like the vaccine center then I will add the disease buildings.
A question about the Disease property: What does it represent compared to unhealthiness? Will it get some epidemic behavior?

Hydromancerx
Jul 17, 2012, 05:07 AM
A question about the Disease property: What does it represent compared to unhealthiness? Will it get some epidemic behavior?

EDIT: Moved answer here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11671454&postcount=69).

AIAndy
Jul 17, 2012, 07:24 AM
Well that's one of the reasons why I have not added them yet. I have though about a few ways to implement it. Buildings can do a lot of things such as slow growth, trigger events, unlock units (ex plague victims), provide a resource, provide a free building to each city (ex like the goods system use to be), even prevent a building from being built in a city. They can also replace or be replaced by buildings such a cure for a disease could replace a disease. They could also gives negative promotions to units such as any unit in the city gets X disease. It can also stop resources from being in the city such as a corn disease prevents you from having corn in the city.

There is a lot of potential in how each disease could work. I do not see them all just being :yuck: or :mad:, however certainly the majority of them will have some of that.

Note that I would like to use the disease rate as how contagious/dangerous/rare a disease is. Diseases the common cold would be low on the scale so most every city would have it, but it would do like only -1:yuck:. Things like latitude of your city should play a factor such as diseases that only are in the tropics. Resources in the city vicinity and buildings will also play a factory in what diseases you get. Such as Mad Cow is obviously linked to the Cow resource or bird flu to the poultry resource.

Tech will play another factor such as modern diseases or future diseases. Some diseases will have cures or even cure wonders made such as Cancer. If you guys have ideas too please say so.
I would like to see some wave behavior on the disease property (so it is not the same as crime, which stays somewhat constant when sources and decays balance out).

That could be implemented with an Immunity property that increases more if Disease is high and reduces Disease which then stops Immunity growth and when it has decayed enough the next wave can come. Especially with spreading to trade route cities and some events that cause a strong increase in the Disease property as a kind of outbreak that would result in interesting behavior.

Koshling
Jul 17, 2012, 08:55 AM
I would like to see some wave behavior on the disease property (so it is not the same as crime, which stays somewhat constant when sources and decays balance out).

That could be implemented with an Immunity property that increases more if Disease is high and reduces Disease which then stops Immunity growth and when it has decayed enough the next wave can come. Especially with spreading to trade route cities and some events that cause a strong increase in the Disease property as a kind of outbreak that would result in interesting behavior.

Beware adding too many plot-based property manipulations, as they are time consuming. Perhaps we could have an object type that is city-plot or owned-plot, which includes only those plots within a city cultural radius/worked plots/owned plots or whatever? That way disease etc would still exhibit spread across 'urbanised' areas, but not have to be processed 'in the wilderness' so to speak??

Similarly for crime - if we had game objects that represented well-defiend subsets of the entire set of map plots the system would internally be essentially unchnaged, but would run much faster within a slightly more limitted domain.

AIAndy
Jul 17, 2012, 09:14 AM
Beware adding too many plot-based property manipulations, as they are time consuming. Perhaps we could have an object type that is city-plot or owned-plot, which includes only those plots within a city cultural radius/worked plots/owned plots or whatever? That way disease etc would still exhibit spread across 'urbanised' areas, but not have to be processed 'in the wilderness' so to speak??

Similarly for crime - if we had game objects that represented well-defiend subsets of the entire set of map plots the system would internally be essentially unchnaged, but would run much faster within a slightly more limitted domain.
Alternatively the disease property could be on city objects only.
Anyway, you can already limit a property manipulator to owned plots or city plots with an Active expression.
The expression for owned plots would look like this (I might add TAG_OWNED for the Is tag if this is used often):

<Active>
<IntegrateOr>
<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
<Constant>1</Constant>
</IntegrateOr>
</Active>

The one for city plots would look similar but with RELATION_WORKING and GAMEOBJECT_CITY.

Koshling
Jul 17, 2012, 11:18 AM
Alternatively the disease property could be on city objects only.
Anyway, you can already limit a property manipulator to owned plots or city plots with an Active expression.
The expression for owned plots would look like this (I might add TAG_OWNED for the Is tag if this is used often):

<Active>
<IntegrateOr>
<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
<Constant>1</Constant>
</IntegrateOr>
</Active>

The one for city plots would look similar but with RELATION_WORKING and GAMEOBJECT_CITY.

Maybe we should do this for crime too (owned plots). Does the evaluation of this expression happen early on (i.e. - it would filter what gets queued for evaluation) or late on (it gets evaluated only when figuring out contributions)? Obviously it only benefits the performance in the first case.

AIAndy
Jul 17, 2012, 11:52 AM
Maybe we should do this for crime too (owned plots). Does the evaluation of this expression happen early on (i.e. - it would filter what gets queued for evaluation) or late on (it gets evaluated only when figuring out contributions)? Obviously it only benefits the performance in the first case.
Early, it checks if the manipulator is active on an object before instantiating it.

Snofru1
Jul 18, 2012, 07:06 AM
The Capital Administration comes later than the Metropolitan Administration (Social Contract/Representative Democracy). As the Met. Adm. cannot be built in the same city as Palace it means that your capital con only grow to size 3 much later than other cities. That doesnīt make sense to me.

My suggestion is:

Remove the "cannot be built in same city as Palace" tag for the Met. Adm. so that it can be buit in the Capital.
As the Cap. Adm. already replaces the Met. Adm. there will be no "overpowering" of the capital.

ls612
Jul 18, 2012, 10:57 AM
I have two issues so far with the prehistoric era.

1. The Creation Myth and an earlier building (knowledge inheritance?) are exactly the same stat-wise, ie same benefits and cost. This is bad, buildings should be slightly more unique.

2. The Dining hall is OP. +2 Food and +1 Health on one building that early in the prehistoric era is a bit too much, I'd remove the health bonus if it was up to me.

I'm going to make the following changes to these assuming no one objects.

1. Creation myth will have +1 :science: and +5% :culture:, making it more unique as a Prehistoric building

2. Dining Hall will require Sedentary Lifestyle in addition to it's current requirements.

Does this sound good?

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 18, 2012, 03:51 PM
The Capital Administration comes later than the Metropolitan Administration (Social Contract/Representative Democracy). As the Met. Adm. cannot be built in the same city as Palace it means that your capital con only grow to size 3 much later than other cities. That doesnīt make sense to me.

My suggestion is:

Remove the "cannot be built in same city as Palace" tag for the Met. Adm. so that it can be buit in the Capital.
As the Cap. Adm. already replaces the Met. Adm. there will be no "overpowering" of the capital.

I think the two should be available at the same tech. However I live in a capital that was "placed in the wilderness" to placate two cities which both wanted to be the capital.

Hydromancerx
Jul 18, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'm going to make the following changes to these assuming no one objects.

1. Creation myth will have +1 :science: and +5% :culture:, making it more unique as a Prehistoric building

2. Dining Hall will require Sedentary Lifestyle in addition to it's current requirements.

Does this sound good?

Please leave my buildings alone. I will deal with them. You worry about other things like techs, units and game speeds.

ls612
Jul 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
Please leave my buildings alone. I will deal with them. You worry about other things like techs, units and game speeds.

OK, fine.

strategyonly
Jul 19, 2012, 05:46 PM
Please leave my buildings alone. I will deal with them. You worry about other things like techs, units and game speeds.

OK then on a side note, what do YOUR buildings consider as a "vicinity" area, 1, 2 or 3 tiles away from the city before you can make Cultures, and resources that can effect the way you get certain buildings to build?

Hydromancerx
Jul 19, 2012, 07:59 PM
OK then on a side note, what do YOUR buildings consider as a "vicinity" area, 1, 2 or 3 tiles away from the city before you can make Cultures, and resources that can effect the way you get certain buildings to build?

I think you need to ask Afforess since he set up the city vicinity code.

BlueGenie
Jul 19, 2012, 08:17 PM
From what I've gathered via experience in C2C is that City Vicinity counts all plots your civilization has Culture in and the city in question could legally make use of.
If your city doesn't yet have the 3 radius it's the BFC, as long as you have any culture there (or taken by Fixed Borders). If you have the 3 radius then it's those plots that count but still only if you own the plots in question.
You also need to have a correct improvement on the resource to get it to count in City Vicinity, i.e get access to the resource.

The only ones that don't count like that but use BFC regardless of ownership of plot are those that use Features or Terrain instead of Resources, for instance buildings wanting Bamboo or Marsh in City Vicinity.

Culture requirements work the same way. If you need Forest and Rabbit you need a Camp type improvement on the Rabbit and own the plot within the BFC of the city but the Forest only needs to be within the BFC even if you do not own the plot.

Cheers

Thunderbrd
Jul 19, 2012, 08:40 PM
My previous playtests suggest that if the city has access to a terrain plot, its considered in the city vicinity where evaluations for terrain objects go for buildings.

JosEPh_II
Jul 19, 2012, 09:06 PM
I think you need to ask Afforess since he set up the city vicinity code.

Have you had recent contact with Afforess?

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 19, 2012, 09:07 PM
My previous playtests suggest that if the city has access to a terrain plot, its considered in the city vicinity where evaluations for terrain objects go for buildings.

The herd buildings should also be considered in the vicinity.

Hydromancerx
Jul 19, 2012, 11:32 PM
Have you had recent contact with Afforess?

JosEPh

Nope.

The herd buildings should also be considered in the vicinity.

I disagree. Herd buildings only give access to the resource but are not are requirements for city vicinity. It would be odd to have a Deer Herd that triggered a Deer Hunter's Camp. Or even weirder Deer Herd + Mammoth Resource = Megaloceros Hunter's Camp instead of Deer resource + Mammoth resource.

If you want that you go ...

1. Subdue Deer.
2. Build Deer Herd
3. Build Great Farmer
4. Place Deer Resource
5. Build Deer Hunter's Camp

Now you have both a Deer Herd and a Deer Hunter's Camp based on one subdued deer.

Dancing Hoskuld
Jul 20, 2012, 12:04 AM
It seems very strange that a herd of animals available in a city is not in the vicinity of the city is all.

Hydromancerx
Jul 20, 2012, 12:19 AM
It seems very strange that a herd of animals available in a city is not in the vicinity of the city is all.

What do you mean? In most situations they are. Fir instance the Deer Trainer requires a Deer Herd or a Deer Hunter's Camp. Since the Deer Herd provides Deer resource then any building that grains a benefit from Deer such as the Zoo gets it from either the Deer Herd or an actual Deer resource (nearby or not).

The only times the Herd is not used directly in in situations such as the Civ Wonders, in which the resource itself is not the important part. If you eat apples you do not become English nor if you have a Bison herd that you will become Sioux.

They are just used as abstractions so you cannot build every culture in any city. Thus having a Horse Herd or Horse Breeder or even a Horse Farm doesn't mean you should be Mongolian culture.

If it was somehow possible to have cultures appear like resources on the map I would do that instead. But this is the next best thing I could figure out.

Thunderbrd
Aug 24, 2012, 03:21 AM
My wife's playtesting revealed an enormous imbalance issue on the Garbage Dock. -5 food on EVERY water space in the city its built in? Wow... nowhere near worth no unhealth from population and a huge increase in water pollution.

I would suggest a +.3 health per population and a -1 food per water space instead. I feel NO unhealth from population is a bit too deuce ex machina to overutilize in such a manner anyhow. I don't think the unhealth from pop is ALL about garbage really... that's only one factor.

On a side note, since she wasn't aware of how to sell off buildings until I told her, she was desperate to get rid of at least the effect, and in the process discovered that changing civics didn't stop the building from functioning, despite it only being constructable on Waste to Sea. I found that a bit interesting as Vokarya had earlier stated that all civic buildings stop functioning when the enabling civic was abandoned.

Sooo... I'd go way out of my way to increase food by one on every water space... how far do you figure I'd go to avoid losing even one? It'd have to be worth a hell of a lot to opt into even that. -5 is just plain epic man!

EDIT: In fact, the more I think about it, the more I believe that NO food reduction per water space would be more appropriate. Instead, as it adds to the water pollution level, that property, as it grows, should cause penalty buildings to emerge that gradually create the - food effect.

Dancing Hoskuld
Aug 24, 2012, 03:38 AM
In my latest few games I have not bothered to move off the "waste anywhere" garbage civic because it is by far the best. "Waste to sea" has a -1 :commerce: per water tile which makes harbour cities economic drains. The maintenance costs on these civics alone make them no go civics and their "special" buildings just make things worse not better.

LumenAngel
Aug 24, 2012, 03:16 PM
Not false... But I prefer ebe in Landfill without building Landfill. Upkeep is low and this civics have no unhealthy/food issue.

But I think this is a civic problem : garbage anywhere must have a +1 unhealthy with some building (house and/or factory building)
I dont build Landfill because in classical/medieval era, it's just big malus with just an +1health.... Even pollution increase because you build it! So I dont.

Vokarya
Sep 28, 2012, 02:06 PM
I was looking at Opera House today to add an Opera House requirement for Bayreuth Festspielhaus. Opera House currently requires Realism, which is now an Industrial Era tech, and comes after Romanticism, where Bayreuth is -- and I don't want an implied tech requirement.

I think we need to move Opera House backwards on the tech tree into the Renaissance Era. Opera houses existed in the 17th century, well before the mid-18th century where the Industrial Revolution starts. I would suggest moving it to Free Artistry, but that might be too early. What do you think?

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2012, 03:05 PM
Realism (X49, Y11) is in the Renaissance era not the Industrial era. I think your getting it confused with Surrealism (X62 Y9) which is in the Industrial era.

Free Artistry is only a few columns away at X45 Y1. Also Romanticism is at X47 Y7 which is about half way between Free Artistry and Realism.

In short I think the Opera House is fine at Realism tech.

Vokarya
Sep 28, 2012, 03:09 PM
Realism (X49, Y11) is in the Renaissance era not the Industrial era. I think your getting it confused with Surrealism (X62 Y9) which is in the Industrial era.

Free Artistry is only a few columns away at X45 Y1.

Actually, we moved Photography, Romanticism, Realism, and Impressionism into the Industrial Era a long time ago. All four of those technologies historically dated to the Industrial Era, not the Renaissance Era where we had them. I think you forgot to update your tree.

These are their current places on the tree:

Photography is at X54 Y17
Romanticism is at X55 Y1
Realism is at X56 Y1
Impressionism is at X58 Y1

Hydromancerx
Sep 28, 2012, 05:39 PM
You did? Grr. I will have to check over I guess. :(

CIVPlayer8
Oct 09, 2012, 08:27 PM
I think that the Fire Pit building doesn't give enough bang for its buck. It only gives 1 culture, and allows construction of another building. Fire pits are huge deals in a village, surely more than 1 culture can be alotted?

bill2505
Oct 09, 2012, 08:38 PM
I think that the Fire Pit building doesn't give enough bang for its buck. It only gives 1 culture, and allows construction of another building. Fire pits are huge deals in a village, surely more than 1 culture can be alotted?

health,happiness,food(you can eat foods that you couldnt

Hydromancerx
Oct 09, 2012, 08:57 PM
I think that the Fire Pit building doesn't give enough bang for its buck. It only gives 1 culture, and allows construction of another building. Fire pits are huge deals in a village, surely more than 1 culture can be alotted?

Build an Imu, Bonfire, Fire Dancer and/or Smoke Signals if you want more benefits from the Firepit. Each are extensions of the Firepit.

GT Ranma
Oct 13, 2012, 07:01 AM
I was wondering, I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I can't find the page; Is the Montreal Biodome suppose to put out more then just Panther, Lions and Wolves? (I feel I might have gotten a bear once, but it seems I almost always get one of those 3)

I feel like it should put out more then just them, specifically animals that can be used to make new resources or herds. By the time you get this wonder, there should be no un-occupied spot on the map, so you can't really get any new animals because there is nowhere for them to spawn.
?

Il Principe
Oct 13, 2012, 01:38 PM
In my current game i just resarched Anatomy and I thought:
Hej.. how about having a bonus to the Dungeon from it?
Because :espionage: for every attacker killed sounds a lot like interogating prisoners.. and that should go better if you know a bit about anatomy.

Further buidings that could get a boost form techs:
The Brothel could get itīs :yuck: removed at either modern medicine or antibiotics.
The Interogation Center could get a boost in :espionage: from Smart Drugs
All adminstrative buildings could get some boost, maybe reduced cost, from various comunications technologies, representing the easier coordination if you donīt have to send someone in person to bring a message.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
I was wondering, I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I can't find the page; Is the Montreal Biodome suppose to put out more then just Panther, Lions and Wolves? (I feel I might have gotten a bear once, but it seems I almost always get one of those 3)

I feel like it should put out more then just them, specifically animals that can be used to make new resources or herds. By the time you get this wonder, there should be no un-occupied spot on the map, so you can't really get any new animals because there is nowhere for them to spawn.
?

It should be giving bears as often as the other animals.

All in all yes it should give any animal you have an enclosure or herd for anywhere in your nation but I have not gotten round to it yet. The "Tame Animals" mod was just too cool not to include but unbalanced in C2C. I had converted Platyping's "Biodome" wonder but when the tame animals came along I felt they were made for each other. I want to add some events and maybe earlier wonders that also provide tame animals for you to transfer to other cities.

@Il Principe, interesting ideas there.

Il Principe
Oct 14, 2012, 02:22 AM
Iīll jsut quote this hrere fro mthe civicdiscussion tread:
Or maybe change the :gold: for :commerce: in some/many of the buildings. That could at least force a change in the science/taxation rate.
I like that idea. In reality few buildings dirctley create money for the state. They create income though taxes, and the state allocates those differentley.
In Civ this is :commerce:, so changing lots of buildings ( I would suggest mainly the various cratmans huts/ workshops etc) to :commerce: gives you the need to get your priorities sorted out: go with a high research slider would make a serious dent in your income.. but you could resarch way faster ( and maybe get some of the lost gold back by selling those techs :) )
Or slow down resarch a bit in favor of a stable economy.

Hydromancerx
Oct 14, 2012, 02:42 AM
Early on in the project we went though to replace :commerce: with :gold: and also change many values from % to straight +/-.

Il Principe
Oct 14, 2012, 03:06 AM
Early on in the project we went though to replace :commerce: with :gold: and also change many values from % to straight +/-.

Ah ..didnīt know that :D

Hydromancerx
Oct 14, 2012, 03:18 AM
@Il Principe

See this topic (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420206).

Without going into too much detail, just know that it was done for a reason and it was debated over and over for months.

Please do not open back up this issue. The game is a lot more balanced this way than it was. Please just let it be.

:deadhorse:

Il Principe
Oct 14, 2012, 05:03 AM
@Il Principe

See this topic (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420206).

Without going into too much detail, just know that it was done for a reason and it was debated over and over for months.

Please do not open back up this issue. The game is a lot more balanced this way than it was. Please just let it be.

:deadhorse:

Of course I donīt want to open Pandoras Box again :D If I had know that his was already discussed at length I woulnīt have said anything.

Il Principe
Oct 20, 2012, 07:33 AM
An idea for "tourism" buildigns, iek the hotel, the baloon ride, and maybe the zoo and aquarium: Give them a debuff depending oncriemrating.High crime meansless tourists coming.
Same goes for health, but I would only do this on realy dedicated toursim buildings, because the locals would still use them even if the city is at low health.
Furthermore they could get a bonus from old wonders,since a city with the pyramids,the temple of salomon and stonehenge in it should see a lot more tourists then a wonderless one, so more income.

Kreatur
Oct 31, 2012, 05:02 AM
many industrial buildings are not worth to build them. i mean the bunsh of basket, shoes ore glas factories. they provide the sames bonuses than the workshops they replace and just provide one more:gold: in exchange of huge :yuck: and pollution. the one gold more is useless because in modern times you have a lot of possibilities to get money. and i dont get why a factory that produce basicly the same recource in the same quantity produce this much of :yuck: . the only reason i build them is because the old workshops go obsolete. the factories should be superior in what they produce to the buildings they replace and not inferior

Hydromancerx
Oct 31, 2012, 02:54 PM
Having a building is still better than no building. If you want to avoid loosing the resource then upgrading to a factory is what you will need to do. And having one more :gold: is an upgrade. Even if its a small one.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 31, 2012, 03:26 PM
Having a building is still better than no building. If you want to avoid loosing the resource then upgrading to a factory is what you will need to do. And having one more :gold: is an upgrade. Even if its a small one.

I really wonder that in cases like this if "Advanced Economy" is off then the upgrade should auto build.

ls612
Oct 31, 2012, 07:09 PM
I really wonder that in cases like this if "Advanced Economy" is off then the upgrade should auto build.

No. Even though I use Advanced Economy always, the whole point of the buildings is that it takes active investment to build them. That was what the whole "increase the cost of buildings" thing was about.

Dancing Hoskuld
Oct 31, 2012, 08:34 PM
No. Even though I use Advanced Economy always, the whole point of the buildings is that it takes active investment to build them. That was what the whole "increase the cost of buildings" thing was about.

Having to build a building that gives you nothing more than the building that has just gone obsolete because you researched a tech is a nonsense. When the quern went obsolete all my cities stopped building Bakeries because I no longer had flour!

Hydromancerx
Oct 31, 2012, 08:45 PM
Having to build a building that gives you nothing more than the building that has just gone obsolete because you researched a tech is a nonsense. When the quern went obsolete all my cities stopped building Bakeries because I no longer had flour!

Actually that's a bug. I will have to fix that.

EDIT: Fixed it so the quern upgrades the 4 types of mills and goes obsolete at Industrialism.

wolfensoul9
Nov 01, 2012, 04:14 AM
I've always wondered...why does the dog breeder give a health? Is it because of their psychological effects, or something?

Seems slightly contrived, if so. In my opinion, of course.

Hydromancerx
Nov 01, 2012, 04:21 AM
I've always wondered...why does the dog breeder give a health? Is it because of their psychological effects, or something?

Seems slightly contrived, if so. In my opinion, of course.

That and they can reduce vermin, such as terrier breeds. Likewise they can ward off dangerous predators. Overall dogs have given mankind a boost in improved lifestyle. Note that Cats also give a :health: for the anti-vermin and psychological effects reasons too.

wolfensoul9
Nov 01, 2012, 04:24 AM
Alright, fair enough.

Faustmouse
Nov 08, 2012, 01:08 AM
1) I think Health Spa should decrese disease. (and the great doc Spezialist as well)

2) Ice house should also decrese diseases.

3) All Parks and Groves should reduce Air Pollution.

4) Townhall (and other Admin Buildings) should add stability.

5) City Gatehouse should reduce Crime

ls612
Nov 08, 2012, 05:03 PM
1) I think Health Spa should decrese disease. (and the great doc Spezialist as well)

2) Ice house should also decrese diseases.

3) All Parks and Groves should reduce Air Pollution.

4) Townhall (and other Admin Buildings) should add stability.

5) City Gatehouse should reduce Crime

I agree with all of these points. Hydro, what say you?

Hydromancerx
Nov 08, 2012, 07:39 PM
1. That's up to DH to change since those are his things.

2. I agree and plan to change.

3. I thought they were already that way. I will have to check them. If they are not I will fix.

4. Probably a good idea.

5. I thought they did. I will fix if they did not.

EDIT: I checked the Grove, Castle Garden and City Park and they all reduce Air Pollution already.

JosEPh_II
Nov 08, 2012, 08:07 PM
Button mushroom gather and another mushroom both have had the +1 :yuck: removed, but not the Morel. It still has +1 :yuck:. Oversight perhaps.

JosEPh

Hydromancerx
Nov 08, 2012, 08:27 PM
Button mushroom gather and another mushroom both have had the +1 :yuck: removed, but not the Morel. It still has +1 :yuck:. Oversight perhaps.

JosEPh

The fungiculture buildings each have their own stats. Morel mushrooms are dangerous to eat (if not cooked properly) which is why the +1:yuck:. Thus some have +1:yuck: and some have +1:health:. It all depends on the mushroom species. Some are harmful, some are neutral and some actually can help heal.