View Full Version : Tech Tree Help


pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 04:45 AM
Hey guys, I have been working on a tech tree for my Armored branch of the WWII scenario I have been working on and I have all of the techs I want, but I cannot seem to fit it well onto a science advisor screen. I gave it a rough test, and I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me fix the following mess...

Pap

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/Images/armor.gif

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 04:46 AM
Agreed, that is a bit of a mess. :)

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 04:47 AM
Proc-
Do you have AOL, MSN or ICQ?

Contact me...

AOLIM - PapWR17
MSN - pap1723@hotmail.com
ICQ - 162705880

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 04:49 AM
imp. medium tank is on there twice. As is Adv. Medium tank (twice). Actually, seems alot of techs are on there more than once.

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 04:52 AM
That was done purposely, as they are the same basic tank design, but an upgrade on top of itself. For example, one of them will be the Panzer IV F2 and the next Imp. Medium Tank would be the Panzer IV H.

Pap

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 04:53 AM
They actually aren't going to update into themselves, but instead upgrade into the conversions they were made to in the war...

So the PzkW IV Ausf. F2 would upgrade into a Hummel or a JagdPanzer IV

Pap

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 04:53 AM
I don't believe I could help you though, as I'm having someone do a tech tree for me...

Though what helped my tech tree look somewhat nice on a flow chart, was reducing the number of prerequsites down to 1 or 2 per tech, and no tech leading to more than 2 or 3 other techs. In some instances I added new techs to help reduce the clutter.

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 04:54 AM
The PzkW IV is an interesting unit, if I recall correct there was D, E, F1, F2, G, and H versions of it.

so I'm assuming then you'd be looking for a slightly different name for the duplicates?

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 04:56 AM
Well, there are 3 versions of the PzKw IV in the game based on the numbers of the unit produced. It starts with the PzKw IV Ausf D which was the first mass produced version. Then the next version is the Ausf F2 which was the first version with the longer gun. And finally the Ausf H which had the side armor skirts and was built in the largest numbers.

Pap

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 04:59 AM
I remember playing a game which had all of the ones I mentioned above, and flipping through the units one by one, watching the small additions each time. Amusing.

E also was fairly widely used.

Looks like though you've done some serious research into this. The hummel though, wasn't that more of an AP tank?

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:00 AM
Yes, the Hummel was a Self-Propelled Artillery unit, but it was based on the PzKw IV chassis.

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:03 AM
That's what I was thinking of, it was more like Self-Propelled Artillery AP...

The Elephante (spelling) I believe was the later version of the Hummel?

Which tank destroyers are you going to be using?

Again, this is very well thought out. If you need any assistance with your WWII scenario, just ask...I've done alot of reading over the years on WWII, and recently finished reading again "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:10 AM
Well, here is the full list of the German/Axis (not Italy though) units...

INFANTRY
-Wehrmacht
-Finnish Infantry
-Panzerfaust Infantry
-Waffen SS
-Fallschirmjager
-Alpine Infantry (Finland)

TANKS
-Pzkw II Ausf. F
-Panzer III Ausf. G
-Panzer III Ausf J
-Panzer IV Ausf D
-Panzer IV Ausf F2
-Panzer IV Ausf. H
-Panther Ausf D
-Panther Ausf G
-Panzer VI Tiger
-Panzer VI Tiger II
-Panzer VIII Maus
-Panther II

TANK DESTROYERS/ASSAULT GUNS
-Hetzer Tank Destroyer
-Marder III
-Jagdpanzer IV
-Jagdpanther V
-Jagdtiger VI
-Stug III Ausf B
-Stug III Ausf G

SP ARTILLERY
-Wespe
-Hummel
-Stummorser Sturmtiger
-sIG IB 150mm Artillery

FIGHTERS
-Me Bf 109E
-Me Bf 109G
-Fw.190A
-Fw.190D
-Me-262A Schwalbe

BOMBERS
-Heinkel He-111
-Heinkel He-177
-Junkers Ju-88

DIVE BOMBERS
-Junkers Ju-87D
-Junkers Ju-87G
-Me-262A Bomber

NAVY
-Graf Zeppelin Class CV
-Bismarck Class BB
-H Class BB
-Deutschland Class CB
-Hipper Class CA
-Z Class DD
-IXB U-Boat
-VIIC U-Boat
-XXI U-Boat

Pap

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:16 AM
What about Volksgrenadier? They were important in 1944/1945. Believe they were the people's army or something like that.

Fighters, have you considered adding the Me-110?

Regular Artillery and non-SP Anti-Tank guns seem to be missing.

Ah, the Maus....only seen that in one game I've ever played. :) What a tank.

I would hope that you will give the German tanks (particularly the later ones) the respect they deserve with regard to their American/British counterparts? Most Americans tend to overrate their own tanks in historical accounts.

wow though, I must say....you've got all the major stuff....I mean pretty much ALL...I very very much look forward to this scenario.

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:18 AM
Proc, if you play Civ 2 scenarios you should check out my WWII scenario...

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/

Pap

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:21 AM
Yes, the Volkstrum or Volksgrenadier were the people's army, or the home army, I may consider making them as a cheap no resource unit...

I haven't added in any of the non SP weapons, haven't decided on exactly which ones, but the 88 will be in there for sure, as well as some others.

Don't worry, I know the American tanks sucked!
It took 3-5 Shermans to kill a Panther or Tiger, it will be accurately represented.

Pap

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:25 AM
About the same figure I quoted in Yurt's WWII thread. (the 3 to 5 American tanks needed to kill 1 German)

88 mm...love that anti-tank (anti-aircraft) gun. 37 mm and 50 mm are two older calibers that come to mind.

I remember 150 mm and 170 mm for Artillery, and I think 120 as well.

Are Romania and Hungary going to be separate from the Germans?

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:27 AM
No, its going to start on December 7th 1941, so they will be with them, I haven't decided on if I'll add their infantry units to the German side to add flavour yet.

Yep, all the calibers you mentioned will 90% likely be in there.

Pap

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:27 AM
Haven't played Civ 2 in a very long time...not since I reached a rating of over 2000% by 1900 and then my hard drive got fried.....(I was colonizing the Arctic by that point en masse for lack of room elsewhere)

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:29 AM
The Romanians in particular did have a few tank units, that's why I was also asking about those two countries.

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 05:30 AM
They might have to make the list then...

Pembroke
Feb 28, 2003, 05:59 AM
Do you have any visual modelling tool? I.e. anything that allows you to draw ER diagrams or similar charts?

I have Visual Studio and have used Visual Modeler to help arranging the techs in the Era page. But any tool will probably do if it allows you to draw boxes and connect them with lines that follow around the screen when you drag the boxes around. That way it's easier to find a better looking arrangement of the techs.

A search from Google for "er modeling tool download" got me 11,000 hits. Even if the downloads are only limited trial period applications you can still use one to work out this particular tech tree...

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 06:00 AM
Thanks a lot!

Rocoteh
Feb 28, 2003, 06:18 AM
Pz Kw IV H and Heavy Tank Destroyer Elefant
Speed, Penetration, Turret Armor Front/Side, Hull Armor
Front/Side.

Pz Kw IV H 24, 135, 66/30, 85/33.
Elefant 12, 232, 215/80, 200/87.

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 06:31 AM
Elefant, that's what I was thinking of.

Since you like posting those things so much Rocoteh, why not post all of the tanks pap listed? :)

pap1723
Feb 28, 2003, 06:40 AM
Wow, I just tried using one of those ER programs and I'm more confused now then I was before!:crazyeye:

Pap

Rocoteh
Feb 28, 2003, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by Procifica
Elefant, that's what I was thinking of.

Since you like posting those things so much Rocoteh, why not post all of the tanks pap listed? :)

"Like posting those things so much Rocoteh,"

Sounds like a sarcasm!

I have posted 2 times concerning tank-stats.

Rocoteh
Feb 28, 2003, 12:58 PM
OK, explain yourself,Procifica.

Only cowards attacks with jokes.

Procifica
Feb 28, 2003, 05:05 PM
I didn't see it as a joke...I actually want to see all the information. It fascinates me.

Pembroke
Mar 01, 2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by pap1723
Wow, I just tried using one of those ER programs and I'm more confused now then I was before!:crazyeye:


It gets easier with practice. :thumbsup:

I am not sure whether this would fit on the page, but here's one that has a more easily seen visible structure in it:

techtree.gif

Pembroke
Mar 01, 2003, 03:22 AM
BTW does everything have to be on one page? Your tech tree would divide quite naturally into the four eras. This can be seen if you enlarge and stretch the tech tree:

Procifica
Mar 01, 2003, 03:25 AM
That looks pretty nice. Though you can't have techs need techs from other eras as prereq's.

Illustrious
Mar 01, 2003, 03:49 AM
One thing I notice. This entire tech tree seems to be 100% German-biased. In the sense that the flow through it is the one chosen in real life by the Germans. There is no provision for following the British/Allied historical approach, which included "infantry tanks" at an early stage (slow, heavily armoured but with low-calibre weaponry), and did not include tank destroyers until much later.

It's nice and detailed if you're building Wehrmacht kit, but is it truly generic enough? I suppose that depends on your scenario, but I am a little concerned that it's piling too much detail onto one half of the historical equation.

Pembroke
Mar 01, 2003, 03:53 AM
Procifica:
That looks pretty nice. Though you can't have techs need techs from other eras as prereq's.


That's true, but you can achieve a similar effect with the "not required for era advancement" flag. Not quite, but usually it's enough.

You can't research a tech in the next era until you have completed the previous one which makes the last techs in the previous era the requirements to the first in the next. Except those you have flagged as "not required".

Obviously this won't work if you want different prerequisites for different techs, but that's why you have to look for "natural era boundaries" i.e. where you have a one or two tech bottleneck in the tree.

Procifica
Mar 01, 2003, 04:01 AM
Illustrious is kinda right on that one. :)

I looked at the arrows wrong. I suppose it could be divided into 4 trees.

pap1723
Mar 02, 2003, 04:55 AM
Ok, after some help from sas, I've come up with the following tech tree...

Some of the techs are new, but this one allows the player to persue Light, Medium or Heavy tanks based on what they want to do. Light tanks are weak but very cheap, heavy tanks are strong but very expensive, and the medium tanks are nicely in the middle.

Pap

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/Images/armor2.gif

Procifica
Mar 02, 2003, 09:36 PM
Interesting tree there.

Problem is, light tanks came first, then medium, then heavy...

Personally I liked the other tree better. :)

pap1723
Mar 02, 2003, 10:20 PM
True, but if you look closely, that's how it should also work out with this tech tree. I have been trying to get the other one to work right, but I'm having big trouble with it. Hopefully I can get it to work.

Procifica do you use any chat programs so that we can talk easier? I would like to help you with Civil War stuff also.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 02, 2003, 10:29 PM
None currently, they were too addictive so I've gotten rid of all of them, and haven't used any in quite awhile.

Yesterday I went on Apolyton's java chat room, maybe that could work?

pap1723
Mar 02, 2003, 10:30 PM
AOLIM would be the best bet I think, the most people use that one.

Just go to www.aol.com and you can download it and set it up within 5 minutes.

My name is PapWR17 if you get it.

Procifica
Mar 02, 2003, 10:33 PM
I've used the AOL IM before. Again, instant messengers proved too addictive for me in the past, so not sure if I want to download any of them again.

pap1723
Mar 02, 2003, 10:35 PM
Ah, ok, I understand what you are saying now.

Oh, and I think the old tech tree is going to work well now. I didn't see the image that Pembroke posted, I think I can use that one very easily.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 02, 2003, 10:40 PM
Any comments, feedback, help, etc. which you wish to talk about on my ACW scenario, feel free to post in either the thread on it out here in main C&C (on second page), or in the Completed Scenarios thread.

Yes, I like his idea of splitting it into 4 eras, seems much easier, and it should be easier to do artillery, infantry, etc. within the 4 eras as well.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 02:11 AM
Thanks to Pembroke, here is the new tech tree, hopefully the final one!

Thanks Pembroke!

Pap

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/Images/armor.gif

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 05:18 AM
Here is the Air Warfare Tech Tree...

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/Images/air.gif

Sir John
Mar 03, 2003, 05:48 AM
Very interisting stuff... Wich program did you use?? That looks like I program I could use...

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 05:49 AM
To make the tech tree picture, I used Paint Shop Pro 7.0 the evaluation version.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 06:36 AM
How does "super heavy tanks" lead to "super heavy tank"?

Improved heavy tanks and Improved heavy tank?

Heavy tanks and Heavy tank?

How do you turn something like that into something which you can put into the editor?

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 06:38 AM
Think of Super Heavy Tanks as the prototype or the blueprints to make the unit, and then, Super Heavy Tank would be actually being able to put the tank into production.

They aren't spelled the same, there is no problem adding them into the editor.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 06:42 AM
Ah, that makes sense. Alot of tanks had prototypes first, before they were put into production.

And my last question?

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 06:43 AM
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean how I put that into the editor?

You mean the Science Screen so it will look that way, or the actual techs?

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 06:46 AM
Setting up the Science screen so it'll look that way, arrows and techs.

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by pap1723
True, but if you look closely, that's how it should also work out with this tech tree. I have been trying to get the other one to work right, but I'm having big trouble with it. Hopefully I can get it to work.

Procifica do you use any chat programs so that we can talk easier? I would like to help you with Civil War stuff also.

Pap

When/How are you going to help me with Civil War stuff anyways?

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 06:49 AM
You take the screen like I did and you make the boxes and the arrows. Then you get the coordinates for the boxes and put the X and Y coordinates into the editor in the Civilization Advance tab. You then delete the boxes, but KEEP the arrows. Then everything should show up the right way.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 06:53 AM
Ok, how do you get the coordinates for the boxes? What type of file is the "arrows" part of this, and where does that file go?

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 07:00 AM
Ok, how do you get the coordinates for the boxes?
In most paint programs you can see the coordinates of where your mouse pointer is. You just go to the top left corner of the box and write that down or move it over into the editor.

What type of file is the "arrows" part of this, and where does that file go?
It is a .pcx image and you can find the original in the \Art\Advisors\ folder under the name of science_era

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 09:45 PM
I tried saving my own science_industrial.pcx over the original (after making a copy), and its still using the original?

Is there anywhere else where I need to put this?

Tech-tree making is a pain!

Kal-el
Mar 03, 2003, 10:02 PM
@Procifica:

take a look at the Tutorial I posted in the Tutorial section, I have included a handy grid that will give you a rough estimate as to what coordinates to give each of your techs.

@Pap:

Nice looking tech trees.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 10:35 PM
Thanks Kal-El, it took me a hell of a long time to get it to look like this, and now I am worried that I might have to change it around depending on how big the boxes are going to be.

Pap

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 10:35 PM
Sorry, double post.

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 10:37 PM
Kal-El, thanks for pointing me to the tutorial.

Unfortunately though, its confusing (at least to me), and some of the steps (9 through 11 or 12ish), seem very repetitive and are confusing me even more.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 10:42 PM
Proc, I can help you with the tech for your Civil War if you want me to. I'm feeling much more comfortable with it now, let me know.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 10:53 PM
Well, I think I'm figuring out that some of the steps, I don't need to do and are just filler or something.

I've managed to paste the grid onto a blank advisor screen, and now I'm going to figure out how big each box will be and stuff.

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 10:58 PM
Ok I've now got that part figured out...now comes the fun of aligning the boxes.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 11:02 PM
That definately isn't the fun part :)

Pap

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 11:10 PM
What would be the fun part then? The instructions on the tutorial I'm looking at (Kal-el pointed me to) aren't making much sense to me at all.

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 11:42 PM
Alright now I've got all the boxes placed where I want them.....on the "grid", which is layered onto the blank science advisor screen. And the boxes are sized with the normal civ techs, based on how many units/buildings are given with each tech. So all I have left is plotting arrows.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 11:44 PM
WOW, that was real quick!

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 11:49 PM
real quick? It took me about 45 minutes total to align 38 boxes on the grid where I wanted them, and most of the boxes are 2 different sizes, 3 sizes total.

pap1723
Mar 03, 2003, 11:50 PM
Well, compared to the time it took me to get my grids aligned, it was hella fast!

Procifica
Mar 03, 2003, 11:52 PM
Well, now I'm going back and putting in the X,Y coordinates into the .bic file.

I already had a sketched out chart of my techs on paper, so it was a matter of fitting the boxes to conform to that. I did have to make several adjustments though, due to the largest box size.

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:11 AM
23 out of 38 placed, and it looks good in-game! :) Once I get the other 15 placed, then its just the arrows to do (which will be a pain, I've left little room between techs, cause I'm cramming 38 techs into one era).

pap1723
Mar 04, 2003, 12:14 AM
Let's see a preview!

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:23 AM
Going to post a preview of all 38, as I just did all the coordinates. Testing now.

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:35 AM
Ok, here is the tree.

I'm going to make a couple of changes though.

1) Advanced Infantry Tactics and Advanced Repeating Rifle are going to move left some.

2) Advanced Carbines will be placed under Advanced Repeating Rifle.

Oh, and the arrows aren't accurate, they haven't been redone yet.

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:36 AM
and that yawning hole on the left side, going up and down, is because a few of those techs should be longer than they are showing up.

pap1723
Mar 04, 2003, 12:52 AM
Looks very good, and well laid out!

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:55 AM
Revised version, as there's going to be a couple of long snaking arrows on the far right and I needed more room.

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 12:56 AM
There is more room on the far right, but I cut it off to save a few KB's, as it is, that image is 94.9 KB, at 75% of normal size.

pap1723
Mar 04, 2003, 01:21 AM
Here is the naval warfare tech tree...

Pap

http://www.historic-battles.com/2194Days/Images/naval.gif

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 01:36 AM
It actually looks like that in game?

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 03:19 AM
For some reason I can't make my arrows lose the "white border" around them....I should have the tree finished tomorrow.

Kal-el
Mar 04, 2003, 04:05 PM
I know the tutorial isn't the clearest thing out there. I should have done it with pictures, but hey, what do you want for free? ;)

ps: you should use the smaller tech boxes I included in the tutorial.

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 05:11 PM
How do I get the game itself to use smaller tech boxes?

Smaller tech boxes would be nice if I could implement them into the game itself.

Kal-el
Mar 04, 2003, 06:10 PM
just extract them into your advisor folder and overwrite the current file.

pap1723
Mar 04, 2003, 08:31 PM
Is there anyway to force the game to use only the smallest tech boxes? Or to at least not use the biggest ones, because even if you make all the boxes the same size, the stuff just overlaps.

Pap

Procifica
Mar 04, 2003, 09:06 PM
From what I've noticed, if a tech has no units/buildings, or only has 1, it uses the smallest. If it has 2 or 3, it uses the next size up. If it has 4, then it uses the largest size.

Sir John
Mar 05, 2003, 07:50 AM
what if it has more then four. I have a tech in my tree wich have 7 buildings... I have just posted the tech tree here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42492&pagenumber=3

It is just a scan of the original draft I made on normal paper. I havent written it into the computer (will do soon) is there any problems there that wont work in the game, anything that will crash?

pap1723
Mar 05, 2003, 09:10 AM
If there are more than four, it still only displays the four.

What I am wondering is since it will only display the four instead of the 7, is there a way to make it stay as the small icon that only shows 1??

Has anyone ever come across that, or knows how it may be possible?

Pap

Procifica
Mar 05, 2003, 06:21 PM
For some reason, some of my techs are only using the "smallest" ones when they should be using the next size up.

Personally, I think their whole editor is really screwed up and needs overhauled.