http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/170/hofgauntlet.jpgWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/rules.php)BEFORE playing!

Settings:

Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Immortal
Map Size: Tiny
Map Type: Inland Sea
Speed: Marathon
Leader: Germany (Bismark)
Opponents: Any
Version: SV8 (1.0.1.511)
Date: 1st to 16th May 2012
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

As suggested by vexing in the Gauntlet Suggestion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=445313) thread.

barb army fun.

extra challenge: win without founding berlin.

Would that even be possible? You'd need... a lot of luck and... a little bit more luck... and finally a deal with the devil.

Isn't "Immortal" a little too hard for a "minor" gauntlet?

marathon pace is at least -2 difficulty,
domination with germany compounds that further.

it's really not too difficult to complete this challenge.

Hey Bubu,
yeah, I thought the same thing, but I think Vexing right. I have more Diety losses than wins, and all of my Diety wins are with Bismark, marathon speed, so this is definately doable at Immortal. I'm going to found Berlin though! :)

Isn't "Immortal" a little too hard for a "minor" gauntlet?

Tiny map, marathon speed and a favourable leader makes it a minor fit.

just to set a first time, got t112

teched only luxuries

By my standards at least, I say well done to you Tyfoon Turk, I managed turn 114.

I only found two ruins the first was a unit upgrade and the second an Indian scout beat me to it! I must say though, I had alot of luck from the barb huts, they mostly gave me units. I can't imagine doing any better than you no matter how many times I try!

EDIT - Ignore what I said about the ruins, I had three attempts at this challenge and got mixed up, I pcked up three or four ruins one of which gave me a useful map which outlined Delhi.

EDIT - I never play games like this and being as I am a stupid old git, I really did think that being on gold income minus would disrupt the fighting capabilities of my troops (der), Now that I know different (through trial and error) I might be able to approach this type of differently.

latest - finnish in 97 turns. I didn't get culture from any ruins, so I imagine the top guys will beat 90 turns!!

that can be improved upon. it's a matter of setting up a sufficient army, then generally you'll want to bait your opponents 3-4 warriors out of their capital and kill them off, then recover and capture their capital. since it's marathon there's little worry of them spewing more units in the meantime.

i recommend archery, since you pretty much have to get through the 3 warriors it's the easiest way to handle it safely. it also opens up barb archer spawning (and they're even stronger than your base archers).

sub 80 is possible.

that can be improved upon. it's a matter of setting up a sufficient army, then generally you'll want to bait your opponents 3-4 warriors out of their capital and kill them off, then recover and capture their capital. since it's marathon there's little worry of them spewing more units in the meantime.

i recommend archery, since you pretty much have to get through the 3 warriors it's the easiest way to handle it safely. it also opens up barb archer spawning (and they're even stronger than your base archers).

sub 80 is possible.

Good stuff vexing, this is all news to me, I just gather a huge army and suffer unimaginable casualties (this is a consequence of playing dual games), I am sure there is alot for me to learn.

Thanks for the info and good gaming.

Just started and ended my first try:
First ruin on a hill next to a bar camp --> upgrade to spearman.
Attacking the barb camp (on flat plains) on the next turn, the spearman takes 8 damage and the brute 5. Obviously he kills the spearman next turn. What are the odds? I think the estimation was something like deal 7 dmg and take 5. Instead I took 8 and dealt only 5.

...

What are the odds?
rhetorical perhaps... but interesting.

i think you got the prediction numbers wrong. on immortal a
spearman vs a fortified in plains barb should have been
7.7 vs 8.4
7 spearman base * 1.1 barb bonus vs 6 brute base * 1.4 (-10% for open terrain, +50% for fortified)

which makes the expected damage dealt 5.24, 57% of the time dealing 5 or less,
and the expected damage taken is 5.78, 9% of the time taking 8 damage (the max)
the prediction should have said expected to deal 5, and take 6

for the barb killing blow,
there was a 44% chance of the spear surviving, 56% chance of dying. the odds would have been about 79% chance of survival if the spear had been at 7 hp.

i think you got the prediction numbers wrong. on immortal a
spearman vs a fortified in plains barb should have been
7.7 vs 8.4
7 spearman base * 1.1 barb bonus vs 6 brute base * 1.4 (-10% for open terrain, +50% for fortified)

(...)

:goodjob:

yeah, not really used to the low barb bonus on immortal (10%) or deity (0%).
I guess it still was very unlucky to take the maximum dmg (9% chance) and then the spear not surviving (roughly 50:50), so it was less than 5% chance of this worst case scenario ;)

Anyway, failed with the 2nd attempt.

Finished on turn 90 with the 3rd attempt. Unfortunately didn't settle on a hill luxury. That would probably help a lot to reach the 80-mark.

I'll see if I can get one by the 16th. I wonder if selecting Raging Barbarians would be a good idea......

I wonder if selecting Raging Barbarians would be a good idea......

it's about as good of an idea as trying to win without founding berlin.

Turn 78, and I have the last City (Delhi) surrounded, I have 9 warriors, 1 scout and an archer, I need two more positioning moves before I attack against their four warriors and an archer (Garrisoned).
I am thinking maybe 83 or 84 (total) turns to finnish, but instead on turn 90 all my units are dead.
The reason I got stuffed is because on turn 78 they aquired City Walls!
I have to say that was very frustrating!

I know this is not up to the standards of the top players but I have managed a turn 88 finnish.

Turn 76 on first attempt.
Played way too conservative. Shouldn't have waited for the second army to join. Could have sub 70. 2 archers+3 warriors + GG are enough to take a capital.
Fun challenge. No rerolling needed. Gotta try again. :)

BTW, sorry for noobish question, barely played Bismark before. Can archers from barb camps join you too? Got only warriors. All archers died. :(

I'll see if I can get one by the 16th. I wonder if selecting Raging Barbarians would be a good idea......

Raging barbs don't help at raising the number of camps. Only the number of barbs getting out of camps. So it's only worse.

it's about as good of an idea as trying to win without founding berlin.

So the ultimate challenge is to win without founding Berlin AND selecting Raging Barbarians!!!

Raging barbs don't help at raising the number of camps. Only the number of barbs getting out of camps. So it's only worse.

The barbarians were BAD, but Ghandi (the scheming bastard) tanked my first attempt. It took 40 turns just to find the little %&*#, so I had to attack with a sup-optimal force to try and keep on schedule. Five units just couldn't get the job done. I guess I'll try again with normal barbarians and see if my scout lives longer.

Can archers from barb camps join you too?

yarp.

yarp.
Yep, found out by trial and error. Second attempt - no barb luck for 50 turns at all. :cry: And then got three archers. Too late. Oh well... Next game. :)

Having won one, even with an embarrassingly high number of turns, I feel compelled to say that this gauntlet is by far my favorite! I'm now going to be on a Bismark binge for weeks!

Is anyone building the monument, or are you relying strictly on ruins for culture?

and

Are you exploring in one direction or sending units in both directions?

I feel compelled to say that this gauntlet is by far my favorite! I'm now going to be on a Bismark binge for weeks!
glad you like it =)

Turn 76 on first attempt.
Can archers from barb camps join you too? Got only warriors. All archers died. :(

yes, archers can join you too.. I also found out that barbs can join you even after you've killed them with archer fire, or killed them outside their camp. It's the act of entering the camp that generates the chance for barbs to join you. I was very surprised the first time it happened!

turn 93. not sure i'll be able to knock much off :(

Having won one, even with an embarrassingly high number of turns, I feel compelled to say that this gauntlet is by far my favorite! I'm now going to be on a Bismark binge for weeks!

Is anyone building the monument, or are you relying strictly on ruins for culture?

and

Are you exploring in one direction or sending units in both directions?


i've been building monument for what it's worth - getting about turn 87 but my city taking is v.sluggish.

i've been building monument for what it's worth - getting about turn 87 but might city taking is v.sluggish.

I've been building warrior-monument-archer and taking Tradition, then Honor. Of course, I haven't been able to win a game under 118 yet, so it's probably the wrong approach for the Gauntlet. It sure is fun, though!

Bismark is definitely my ticked to completing the Inferno. A tiny duel on the Pangea map goes quite fast. Die, Ghandi, Die! Gneeeehehehehehe.........

taking Tradition, then Honor

i don't think tradition can be justified. the first 3 policies cost 75, 100, 180

if you hit a culture goody, it provides 60 culture, so on turn 15 you could either take tradition and get honor 25 turns later with nothing else built, and at 6 cpt you'd be 30 turns from 3rd policy - turn 70

if you took honor directly, not only do you start getting the bonus vs barbs 25 turns earlier, but even at just 2cpt you're only 50 turns from 2nd policy, so you should get there before turn 70.

if you build a monument rather than hitting a culture ruin, things shift even further in direct honor's direction.

Bismark is definitely my ticked to completing the Inferno. A tiny duel on the Pangea map goes quite fast. Die, Ghandi, Die! Gneeeehehehehehe.........

inferno?

i don't think tradition can be justified. the first 3 policies cost 75, 100, 180

if you hit a culture goody, it provides 60 culture, so on turn 15 you could either take tradition and get honor 25 turns later with nothing else built, and at 6 cpt you'd be 30 turns from 3rd policy - turn 70

if you took honor directly, not only do you start getting the bonus vs barbs 25 turns earlier, but even at just 2cpt you're only 50 turns from 2nd policy, so you should get there before turn 70.

if you build a monument rather than hitting a culture ruin, things shift even further in direct honor's direction.

Thanks!!! I wish that I had decided two weeks ago to start playing Civ5 again. I'm just too out-of-practice to turn in a decent effort on this challenge. It is still a great learning experience, though. I've learned a great deal about choosing an initial city location, and even more about drawing defenders away from cities.

inferno?

Inferno is an HoF category where players win on all 8 of the difficulty settings.

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/mastery.php?show=difficulty&pubID=-1

I discovered that on the Settler setting, Gandhi (the backstabbing vermin) can be taken out by four warriors.

re: "I've learned a great deal about choosing an initial city location, and even more about drawing defenders away from cities."

I've learned a lot on this one too - mostly that I still have a lot to learn! :)
On the drawing the defenders out of cities thing - I guess I have been giving the AI too much credit assuming it wouldn't do anything really stupid. :)
Obviously that's not the case though. I think my problem is that I show up on the enemy's borders with a big army and instead of baiting the defenders out, they dig in. I'm guessing the trick is to just show one unit, keeping the main army hidden, till they come out from the city.
If the pros can take city with just five units (or four even?) then I should be able to too!

Is anyone building the monument, or are you relying strictly on ruins for culture?
Hitting culture ruin helps a lot, obviously. But I've managed to get t88 without finding a single ruin at all. My archer only found El-Dorado and ironically died the very next turn due to combo of barb+enemy warrior. :lol:

Are you exploring in one direction or sending units in both directions?
Theoretically speaking in both is better. You're busting camps in two directions, recruit two armies and finish much earlier. On practice, though, I couldn't convert enough barbs for two fully capable armies fast. Most of the time it's one healthy bunch that can take out capital and another couple of dudes that are wondering pointlessly looking for more barbs since they cannot do anything by their own and the main force in too far away. However luck factor is huge. Sometimes you have 100% conversions and sometimes 0%. I'm sure whoever is patient with rerolling will eventually hit the jackpot.

yes, archers can join you too.. I also found out that barbs can join you even after you've killed them with archer fire, or killed them outside their camp. It's the act of entering the camp that generates the chance for barbs to join you. I was very surprised the first time it happened!
Me too. I also noticed that if the camp is razed by an archer that's what grants you culture bonus from Honor. Not killing the barb that was in it. I am not hallucinating, am I?

I also noticed that if the camp is razed by an archer that's what grants you culture bonus from Honor. Not killing the barb that was in it. I am not hallucinating, am I?

you are. you should get that checked out.

the purple number usually doesn't pop up immediately but when you return to the same screen location. so maybe you killed a barb, got switched to another unit somewhere else, then returned to a nearby unit taking the camp when finally the +4 (for archers) or +6 (for brutes) popped up on the screen. (the culture is added to your total culture though regardless the moment you make that kill.)

Results:

G-Minor XXVIII (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/gauntlet.php?show=minor&gauntlet=44) - Domination, Immortal, Tiny, Inland Sea, Marathon, Germany (Bismark)
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/gold.png1st vexing - 3070 BC T-62
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/silver.png2nd The Pilgrim - 2860 BC T-76
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/images/bronze.png3rd pontias - 2695 BC T-87

Congratulations!

Good stuff vexing, you never cease to amaze me!
The only way I could conceive of getting anywhere near such an amazing finnish would be to open a ruins giving me archery, turn two find Eldorado and purchase an archer, turn three take the archer to a ruins and become a crossbowman, even then I would still struggle!

Good going all you top three.

a crossbow upgrade would be sweet.

i started building scout, buying 2nd warrior when i could afford it for recruiting. given 3 opponents, i think you want to build / recruit a sufficient army just going one direction, and only then start on 2nd army for other direction. basically you want to time it so the first army takes out its second opponent while the second army takes out final opponent.

at marathon the value of gpt is such that you don't need to settle on a mining luxury... any high gpt start, preferably also on a hill, can work.

wow, awesome time vexing!

That IS awsome!!! I'm having trouble finishing one opponent off in less than 62t in an Emperor Duel at the moment. Three is.....well......astounding! I'll put the scout-warrior start to work in my duels.

you are.
Good! :D It didn't make any sense to me. I guess it was just pop up delay.

I want to thank you and curse you. This stuff is highly addictive. :) And I have pressing dead lines in RL. Damn that work...

Expected low 60's finish from you. Good job! :king:
Did you start with scout for early upgrade or just ruins?
I've got scarcher once but no camps luck at all. Then switched to warrior start, assuming two warriors will recruit more barbs than one plus a scout who's running around desperately looking for ruins.

The only way I could conceive of getting anywhere near such an amazing finnish would be to open a ruins giving me archery, turn two find Eldorado and purchase an archer, turn three take the archer to a ruins and become a crossbowman, even then I would still struggle!
Have to share something...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=321402&stc=1&d=1337219193
:cool:
Too bad that upgrade came on turn 50 after I've failed to convert a single barb and still was 3 capitals away from winning. But I just had to finish that game, couldn't let it go. Mostly fooling around obviously. Also AI is so different in each game. The biggest force any AI ever had. Tried to match my overkilling force probably. :D

given 3 opponents, i think you want to build / recruit a sufficient army just going one direction, and only then start on 2nd army for other direction. basically you want to time it so the first army takes out its second opponent while the second army takes out final opponent.
I came to the same conclusion and split my army after taking first capital. Had I not waited for it to be merged again would have finished at 68-69. Wasn't able to replicate the same camp luck though.

Too bad that upgrade came on turn 50 after I've failed to convert a single barb and still was 3 capitals away from winning. But I just had to finish that game, couldn't let it go. Mostly fooling around obviously. Also AI is so different in each game. The biggest force any AI ever had. Tried to match my overkilling force probably. :D

Thanks for sharing, you make a good point about the size of the force you encountered, I am not very confident about my fighting abilities, so I would always form a large army and in my attempts it was not unusual to encounter four warriors, one archer and two stuborn scouts positioned perfectly like imovable statues! Encountering this at the first capital was definately my downfall on many occasions because I would approach the next one devoid of any possible promotions!

Thanks for sharing, you make a good point about the size of the force you encountered, I am not very confident about my fighting abilities, so I would always form a large army and in my attempts it was not unusual to encounter four warriors, one archer and two stuborn scouts positioned perfectly like imovable statues! Encountering this at the first capital was definately my downfall on many occasions because I would approach the next one devoid of any possible promotions!
It was the only time I've seen force that can be considered as such. Usually there were only 3-4 warriors and 1-2 archers at last capital. In my game I was lucky to recruit huge army very fast. On turn 36 I had 4 warriors, spearman and two archers positioned next to arabian border, when all of a sudden I saw 5 green warriors heading in Berlin's direction. :lol: Speaking of giving credit to AI. I let them move away and took completely undefended Mecca.

It was the only time I've seen force that can be considered as such. Usually there were only 3-4 warriors and 1-2 archers at last capital. In my game I was lucky to recruit huge army very fast. On turn 36 I had 4 warriors, spearman and two archers positioned next to arabian border, when all of a sudden I saw 5 green warriors heading in Berlin's direction. :lol: Speaking of giving credit to AI. I let them move away and took completely undefended Mecca.

I must have spent 100 hours attempting this challenge, but I am a novice at this type of game and I too came across alot of unusual circumstances. I missed a golden opportunity of which you have spoken, I had taken Mecca and decided to split my remaing four warriors in both directions, three turns later I came across undefended Paris (size 10), it seems their army had gone off on a crusade to conquer India. I recalled my other two warriors and GG, six turns later I had a captured archer two damaged warriors and two fully healed warriors which would have been enough but for the returning French Imperial Guard! I guess to match vexing's score we need a combination of these events to fall into place.

Here is a list of some of the frustrating things I came across.

1 - Going into the fog and finding a mountain range flanked by a City State, so totally impassable.

2 - Finding Delhi with City Walls, several times.

3 - 75 gold time after time, first of all I consoled myself with the thoughts that the law of averages will come to my rescue, but the truth of the matter is what has gone has gone and your next barb camp is still a 50 50 chance!

4 - Being attacked by barbarians that come out of the fog just as you are about to take a City, this can often turn the tide in the defenders favour. I have to say though, sometimes these barbarian invaders can work to our favour.

5 - Running round a barb camp with your first warrior trying to entice them to come and attack, but they stay put. This was my main reason for a quick restart.

This particular G - Minor is over but I havn't given up on this game yet, I enjoy learning from my own experiences and shall endevour to get there in the end!

Good gaming, The Pilgrim, and thanks once again for sharing.

i was building monument. tried vexing suggestion of scout first. pushing initial warrior deep towards the AI meant I could nick a few of their ruins. scout swept up close to home.

I still can't get the hang of luring units out of the city without losing a unit of my own. any tips on that anyone?

managed a turn of 76 trying above. think i discovered honor on my last turn :)

(also, how do you turn off the DLC civs to make your game compatible? I just hoped that I didnt get any in this challenge!)

I must have spent 100 hours attempting this challenge, but I am a novice at this type of game and I too came across alot of unusual circumstances. I missed a golden opportunity of which you have spoken, I had taken Mecca and decided to split my remaing four warriors in both directions, three turns later I came across undefended Paris (size 10), it seems their army had gone off on a crusade to conquer India. I recalled my other two warriors and GG, six turns later I had a captured archer two damaged warriors and two fully healed warriors which would have been enough but for the returning French Imperial Guard! I guess to match vexing's score we need a combination of these events to fall into place.
What needed is ruin love (popping Archery and culture) and camps luck. And enough tactics skill to take down a capital with no more than 5 units. In this case sub 60 is possible. I think... :rolleyes:


1 - Going into the fog and finding a mountain range flanked by a City State, so totally impassable.
Reroll! :D
You can set 5 billion years world, but tbh, I didn't notice any difference on this particular map script.


2 - Finding Delhi with City Walls, several times.
Choosing opponents with high defensive orientation is a big mistake. Gandhi is probably the worst possible pick.

3 - 75 gold time after time, first of all I consoled myself with the thoughts that the law of averages will come to my rescue, but the truth of the matter is what has gone has gone and your next barb camp is still a 50 50 chance!
Yeah. It's annoying. Very. :(

5 - Running round a barb camp with your first warrior trying to entice them to come and attack, but they stay put. This was my main reason for a quick restart.
Or you can attack from forested adjacent tile and hope your warrior doesn't die the next turn. If it does, then you can reroll. :lol:

This particular G - Minor is over but I havn't given up on this game yet, I enjoy learning from my own experiences and shall endevour to get there in the end!
Me too. :) Don't know why, but this is incredibly fun scenario. I usually get bored very fast, not with this one. Finally I'll have more time over the weekend, so dear barbs here I come! :cool:

Choosing opponents with high defensive orientation is a big mistake. Gandhi is probably the worst possible pick.

Speaking of which, I have been scouring the S&T forum looking for a good summary of the strategic tenancies of the various AI Civs. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Me too. :) Don't know why, but this is incredibly fun scenario. I usually get bored very fast, not with this one. Finally I'll have more time over the weekend, so dear barbs here I come! :cool:

This one really is a most educational and habituating challenge. After this challenge and studying FeiLing's legendary 41t Bismark v Egypt duel, I have started developing a new approach to short conquests:

1) Settle on a gold/silver/gems hill.

2) Research mining, sell resource to the AI and buy a warrior/archer. Since I get one free, can always build one in a maximum of 30 turns, and I can buy one, the worse case I face is flipping 2 barbarian camps to get 5 units in less than 40 turns.

3) Lure defenders away from their capital(s). I'm still working on this one, although bribed AI DoWs is starting to look promising.

Speaking of which, I have been scouring the S&T forum looking for a good summary of the strategic tenancies of the various AI Civs. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

It's in the sticky. :)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409062


This one really is a most educational and habituating challenge. After this challenge and studying FeiLing's legendary 41t Bismark v Egypt duel, I have started developing a new approach to short conquests:

1) Settle on a gold/silver/gems hill.

2) Research mining, sell resource to the AI and buy a warrior/archer. Since I get one free, can always build one in a maximum of 30 turns, and I can buy one, the worse case I face is flipping 2 barbarian camps to get 5 units in less than 40 turns.
You don't have to wait for Mining, you can start selling gpt immediately. On marathon this is especially wicked due to relatively lower units purchasing costs.

3) Lure defenders away from their capital(s). I'm still working on this one, although bribed AI DoWs is starting to look promising.
It's not as much about luring them out from capitals as forcing into unfavorable position using flanking, ZOC and terrain while staying out of cities range and avoiding being shot.

It's in the sticky. :)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409062



You don't have to wait for Mining, you can start selling gpt immediately. On marathon this is especially wicked due to relatively lower units purchasing costs.


It's not as much about luring them out from capitals as forcing into unfavorable position using flanking, ZOC and terrain while staying out of cities range and avoiding being shot.

Nice spreadsheet!!!! I'll be up all night studying that and Understanding the Zone Of Control from the War Academy! I'll experiment with GPT vs LS for the resources too.

Edit: If I read the spreadsheet correctly, I should be playing my early conquests against Elizabeth or Napoleon.
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww150/ajkfjaioIIl9Wkk/civchart.jpg

elizabeth's ocean start bias can be a hindrance.

elizabeth's ocean start bias can be a hindrance.

I played (and lost) one where I disabled the start bias, and she was several tiles inland. She had at least three scouts, but only three warriors and one archer. If she had been closer, and I had had better barb luck, I could have won.