In science games, I'm tying to figure out when to sign your last RA. I lost a science game at Immortal recently, and I think its because I signed 2 late RAs. I think I was helping Russia to speed up techs like partical physics and nanotech, when I was getting them with GSs.

I just played another very similar game, but did not sign an RA after Rocketry. The expiring RAs helped me with a few techs like telegraph, but I had the just right # of GSs, and with the Rationalism finisher, I was able to use my last GS for nanotech. America was slightly ahead of me in the Space Race, but they stalled when it came to the stasis chamber, making me think they had to research nanotech without my help, and thus, I was able to win. Any thoughts on this subject?

Another question, at Immortal, I'm having to beeline rifling once I get the HS-PT-ND-NE thing done. Getting these rifles early seems to be the only way to deal with neighboring AIs spamming cities everywhere (their happiness must really crash when they do this). I can get away with beelining rifles at Immortal. Can you get away with it at Deity? It seems to take you off the optimal space ship tech track, and a lot of production is wasted on spamming rifles.

If you aim for a T200 science win (very possible), then sign your last set of RA's around T160-170. This last set could then be used for the final techs needed for space ship parts. For maximum efficiency you need to factor in the total number of GS you expect to save up + 2 free techs from Rationalism policy + free tech from Oxford. If you are going for a peaceful game then you don't need rifles, just use crossbows and siege weapons for defense, provided you have a decent defensive position for your cities. Ideally you want to beeline Education (and the HS-PT), then Astronomy (for Rationalism opener ASAP), then public schools without detouring too much for military techs in the bottom of the tech tree (only taking what works best in the bottom of the tree to maximize median for RA's).

Of course the map will have a major impact on strategy. If you don't have room for growth at the start you will need to detour for units that can help you conquer a neighbor to expand your territory. If you have room for 4-6 cities with a good defensive position (bottlenecks, mountain ranges, rivers, other rough terrain hampering the enemy) then you are golden for a peaceful victory.

Well, I play on Epic speed; so my turn numbers would have no relation.
It does depend heavily upon how many Great Scientists your forming.

In my previous game, the RA I signed right before entering the modern era was useless and the previous one was marginal.

If you stream line your techs enough it appears you can get by easily with your last RA being signed shortly before Industrial.

As I understand it, one reason to stop signing RAs is to slow down the science of other AIs. Some of them are usually at war, so their RAs are even further diminished. At this point, you can rely on your GS production to get you to nanotech ahead of the other AIs (even at Deity). I'm starting to think maybe I should stop signing RAs after steam power.

A whille back, I thought is was suspicious when an AI would finish 4-5 space ship parts, and then do nothing. Now I'm starting to think they were having to research robotics, partical physics and nanotech by themselves. This can take 50+ turns easily.

When you make a good use of RA's AI's science is not a threat. I had a game recently where Siam failed to complete SS in 90 turns. :crazyeye: Extreme case but AI just can't finish those parts fast. So you should focus on what your needs are and not to worry about boosting AI.
Number of GS, as mentioned, is a primary factor.
Other than that it's not as much on what turn you should stop signing RA's, as how many of them got completed without being broken and how well you manipulate the median. When you pump your own science to the reasonable rate (over 200:c5science:) you usually need 18-19 of them. Of course, there is always a chance some will get broken, so I sign all 21 if I can. From my experience with GS saved, Oxford and Scientific revolution you can stop somewhere in the middle of Industrial. But it requires actual counting. Count how many techs you can bulb vs. how many you still need plus how many can be discovered through RA's.

My tendancy is to not sign RAs until I build PT, then I aggresively sign as many as possible, sometimes even giving AIs gold so they have enough money to complete one. I'm reconsidering when to stop signing them.

Also, I would point out that when an expensive tech like say biology comes up, you might be tempted to blow a GS on it. But you never know, when the RAs kick in, the time it takes to reseach a tech like this could go way down, from 16 turns to 4. So, in that case, it would have been a wasted GS. So, my inclination would be to use GSs on techs I'm pretty sure that other AIs haven't started researching. A good example of this is satellites. As soon as I get rocketry, I'll blow a GS on satellites, then set my tech track to nanotech. That way, other AIs either have to research sateliites, or blow their own GSs on it.

My tendancy is to not sign RAs until I build PT...

At the least, you really want to start signing RA's so that the first wave matures right after you build PT, so around turn 70ish in a standard game (assuming you build PT around turn 100). I often take advantage of the cheap 200 gold Classical RA's as well even if it delays going into Medieval, as these can propel you into Education earlier. Ideally you want to time your waves of RA's so they occur before hitting the next era to keep your costs down. However, eventually you will reach a point where you are so far ahead of the AI in tech you will almost always have to pay a premium (unless you are playing on Deity, in which case you probably won't pull ahead of the AI in tech until later).

In the early game, I'm worried about helping other AI's reaching education before I can rush PT and ND.

General way for sub-200 science wins :

1st mini classical wave(2-3 RAs) 25-28 turns before completing the PT and try to get compass for free with them to reach astro faster(with a sufficient median).

2nd wave before entering the ren. era.(20-25 turns before if pangea, if not immediately sign RAs with other continents) Reach the middle of this era and clear the last ren. techs with this wave.

Sign last wave before entering the industrial era. Rush Refrigeration if some RAs are somewhere else between 2 waves. If not just manually get that tech and use the modern median era for the very last RAs. Clear the bottom of the tech tree and Apollo tech(around turn 170).

For last techs, burn every gs(at least 7) and sci.rev. to reach nanotech before or around turn 190.

Don't forget to ctrl-shift techs you want.

Also, I would point out that when an expensive tech like say biology comes up, you might be tempted to blow a GS on it. But you never know, when the RAs kick in, the time it takes to reseach a tech like this could go way down, from 16 turns to 4. So, in that case, it would have been a wasted GS. So, my inclination would be to use GSs on techs I'm pretty sure that other AIs haven't started researching. A good example of this is satellites. As soon as I get rocketry, I'll blow a GS on satellites, then set my tech track to nanotech. That way, other AIs either have to research sateliites, or blow their own GSs on it.
The techs are worth bulbing are these that increase the median. Like Electricity. It even worth double or triple bulbing if you have spare GS. Satellites, on the other hand, shouldn't be bulbed until all necessary RA's resolve. It reduces the median, not increase it. You'd better bulb Mass Media and Electronics. I try to time Scientific Revolution for this. In such case, assuming you have Atomic Theory, Refrigeration, Computers and Satellites open, the median will be between Computers and Atomic Theory. If you bulb Satellites, you'll have Refrigeration, Atomic Theory, Mass Media and Electronics open and the median will stay at Atomic Theory. Since late techs are so expensive the difference between two medians is quite significant. Dozens of turns.
BTW, in case you don't know, you can check when RA kicks in, they are listed in deals history section of diplo screen. You can even predict the overflow they'll create.

In the early game, I'm worried about helping other AI's reaching education before I can rush PT and ND.
Don't worry about that. Ever. AI doesn't make good use of RA's. And even if it knew, without PT and Rationalism - good luck.

Thanks Pilgrim, I'm finally understanding the details of the RA system. Would you agree that one should stop signing RAs at some point, such that it takes the AIs longer to research robotics, particle physics, and nanotech? In my science games, I always have GSs lined up for these 3 techs.

Again, don't worry about what the AI is doing. Even at Deity level by the time you get to the final techs you should be so far ahead in tech that it won't matter. Once you start bulbing using your saved GS's and 2 free techs from Rationalism (I usually build Oxford a bit earlier to bulb a tech that will improve my median) you will vault past the AI on Deity. At lower difficulties you will be way ahead much earlier.

As stated earlier I stop signing RA's when I am about 30 turns before the projected end date as I like to use my GS to bulb up to the Apollo Project plus spaceship factories quicker so I can get those produced before the last wave of RA's give me the final needed techs for the parts. This allows you to use your money in the last 30ish turns to ally a few more cultural or maritime CS. Optionally you could stop signing RA's about 30 turns before the last tech needed based on how many you will bulb at the end with GS, but this end timing isn't optimal as you will be producing factories first before parts anyway.

@Pilgrim I just played a science game, Immortal, egypt, standard everything. I got 21 GSs, about what you predicted. I was able to subdue my neighbor with a rifle/artillery rush, so I didn't have worry about military after that. I experimented with not bulbing satellites, and I had two fairly late RAs going. I bulbed computers instead. I had enough GSs to bulb everything, but I wanted to see how long Satellites would take. It took a really long time (11 turns). So I went back and played it with bulbing satellites, and I finished my space ship 10 turns faster.

If you don't have abundant GSs, to where you can bulb all the needed techs after rocketry, and you may be waiting on a late GS for nanotech, or need RA help with computers, then I think it makes sense to bulb satellites. Key point-bulbing satellites lets you start building the ss cockpit immediately. It usually finishes about the same time computers is researched, then bulb robot, particle physics, and nanotech, build the 3 boosters in your second city, which if developed right can build them in 6-7 turns (without SS factory), build stasis chamber and engine in capital. You launch about 20 turns after satellites is researched.

I could be wrong about bulbing satellites, but I experimented with doing it versus not doing it, and this was the result. I suppose one could bulb to robotics and start building right away also, so that point could be moot. Also, it was just one game, but I found computers researched faster than satellites in this particular game.

Are spaceship factories a good investment? It seems to me that with a well developed capital and second and sometimes third cities, 6-9 turns seems a reasonable rate of time for ss parts. I usually try to build a manufactery (sp?) by my capital and second city. I also make multiple deals such that I dont run out of coal.

I got 21 GSs

21 GSs? You mean RAs isn't it?

You need 16-17(can be close or more than 20) RAs and 7-8 gs.

My Bad, I didn't get 21 GS, I got 21 GP, 14 GS (1 from PT), 4 GA (2 from Louvre), 2 GE, and 1 GG. I was trying to keep track and I believe that's about right. I had my capital at +25-+30 GS ppt from fairly early, and my second city ended at +24, and gave me 4 GS by itself.

14-15 GS is doable if everything goes right, i.e. a very productive capital with HG, a very productive second city, getting Unis and Gardens up quick, getting NE and freedom opener ASAP.

Looking back at that game, I built the Oracle in my second city, and Brandenburg in my capital, which I think also boosted my GS#s.

Are spaceship factories a good investment? It seems to me that with a well developed capital and second and sometimes third cities, 6-9 turns seems a reasonable rate of time for ss parts.

If you have the cash (and often you do by that time) then buying spaceship factories can cut off a bunch of turns. But if you don't have aluminum in your borders then it can be very tough to get pre-200 (or even pre-250) from CS or other civs. Even if CS allies have aluminum and the tile is mined they often don't gift it to you right away. So nice to have but not essential, particularly if you have good production in your cities already.

Thanks Pilgrim, I'm finally understanding the details of the RA system. Would you agree that one should stop signing RAs at some point, such that it takes the AIs longer to research robotics, particle physics, and nanotech? In my science games, I always have GSs lined up for these 3 techs.
One should stop signing RA's when s/he secured s/he has enough RA's + GS + Oxford + SR to cover all needed techs up to Nano. With having couple of spares in case some RA's get broken by backstabbing AI. And not to care about AI's science. Ever.

Again, don't worry about what the AI is doing.
This.
And just in case we forgot to mention one should never worry about AI's doings: don't you ever worry about AI's doings. ;)

@Pilgrim I just played a science game, Immortal, egypt, standard everything. I got 21 GSs, about what you predicted.
I was talking about RA's. I've never got such amount of GP in one game. Not even close. I think 10 was my best. But I don't usually use Freedom and most of the games end before 250, so I don't have time to generate so many. I have to admit, it's very impressive number. Not sure, though, investing so much into GP generation was optimal for earlier finish date.

I experimented with not bulbing satellites, and I had two fairly late RAs going. I bulbed computers instead. I had enough GSs to bulb everything, but I wanted to see how long Satellites would take. It took a really long time (11 turns). So I went back and played it with bulbing satellites, and I finished my space ship 10 turns faster.
I didn't mean you should not bulb Satellites in any case. What I meant was if you rely on RA's to clear some of the late techs, then you should not compromise the median by premature bulbing of Satellites. If you have enough GS to bulb all of the techs, you don't even need RA's. Of course you should bulb and start building parts the moment you do it.

If you don't have abundant GSs, to where you can bulb all the needed techs after rocketry, and you may be waiting on a late GS for nanotech, or need RA help with computers, then I think it makes sense to bulb satellites. Key point-bulbing satellites lets you start building the ss cockpit immediately. It usually finishes about the same time computers is researched, then bulb robot, particle physics, and nanotech, build the 3 boosters in your second city, which if developed right can build them in 6-7 turns (without SS factory), build stasis chamber and engine in capital. You launch about 20 turns after satellites is researched.

I could be wrong about bulbing satellites, but I experimented with doing it versus not doing it, and this was the result. I suppose one could bulb to robotics and start building right away also, so that point could be moot. Also, it was just one game, but I found computers researched faster than satellites in this particular game.

Clearing Robotics, IMO, is more urgent than clearing Satellites. For SS factories and 3 parts instead of just one expensive part. But it depends. If you only have one upcoming RA (which you need) and you bulb Satellites, to clear Computers you'll have to hard tech the difference between Computers and Atomic Theory. If you don't bulb, you'll have to hard tech only half of that. To get rid of the dilemma one should just sign two RA's for Computers and that's it. And they're better be timed to resolve in syncro with Apollo completion, not SS Engine completion. Then if you have 4 GS saved, you can bulb all remaining techs and start working on all the parts simultaneously.

Are spaceship factories a good investment? It seems to me that with a well developed capital and second and sometimes third cities, 6-9 turns seems a reasonable rate of time for ss parts. I usually try to build a manufactery (sp?) by my capital and second city. I also make multiple deals such that I dont run out of coal.
You'd better get more GS than wasting GP points on two engineers.
Factories are usually a good thing. But as RedRover57 pointed out, since AI will be far behind in tech, acquiring aluminum might be a problem. Less on deity, more on immortal and pretty much guaranteed on anything below. In such case conquering CS with the resource is the easiest way to obtain it. Not always worth it, though.

My Bad, I didn't get 21 GS, I got 21 GP, 14 GS (1 from PT), 4 GA (2 from Louvre), 2 GE, and 1 GG. I was trying to keep track and I believe that's about right. I had my capital at +25-+30 GS ppt from fairly early, and my second city ended at +24, and gave me 4 GS by itself.

14-15 GS is doable if everything goes right, i.e. a very productive capital with HG, a very productive second city, getting Unis and Gardens up quick, getting NE and freedom opener ASAP.

Looking back at that game, I built the Oracle in my second city, and Brandenburg in my capital, which I think also boosted my GS#s.
You were lucky to get all these wonders. On deity you'll not have such luck. And in average immortal game neither. Not that it matters. They're not needed.


Don't forget to ctrl-shift techs you want.
It's Shift+Click !

vexing's influence is spreading. :D

Thanks Pilgrim, I've played some games at Immortal where Oracle and other important wonders go really fast, but occasionally, I'll have a game where no AI seems to build them, and Egypt is great art swooping in and quick building them. But it was basically luck. Also, maybe its just luck, but I almost always seem have multiple sources of aluminum, and it always seems to be coal which I'm scrambling for.

I know I need to focus on getting my spaceship completion time down, I'm barely getting it by turn 300 in most games. I know I need more RAs, but i'm signing all that are available, except the early ones. MB I should play in games with more AIs, and sign the early one's.

In terms of GPs, I seem to naturally build an average of 3-4 GAs by doing nothing more than building Gargen, HS, NE in my capital, and opening freedom. I do go all out to max GS and GE production, but how does this hurt you?

I realize, in MP, against very good players, I'd be losing every science game, with my current strategy. What's a good turn # to shoot for?

Thanks Pilgrim, I've played some games at Immortal where Oracle and other important wonders go really fast, but occasionally, I'll have a game where no AI seems to build them, and Egypt is great art swooping in and quick building them. But it was basically luck. Also, maybe its just luck, but I almost always seem have multiple sources of aluminum, and it always seems to be coal which I'm scrambling for.
Random factor, of course, plays its role in every game. And yeah, in some games wonders go very late for no clear reason. But building strategy counting on that isn't wise obviously.

I know I need to focus on getting my spaceship completion time down, I'm barely getting it by turn 300 in most games. I know I need more RAs, but i'm signing all that are available, except the early ones. MB I should play in games with more AIs, and sign the early one's.
If by early ones you mean in classical era to clear some of the medieval techs pre-PT/Rationalism, you don't have to. You should start signing RA's before you unlock these, from turns 70-80, but I'm not sure there is much point in signing earlier. Maybe it is some, I just never tested it thoroughly since I'm doing fine without it.

In terms of GPs, I seem to naturally build an average of 3-4 GAs by doing nothing more than building Gargen, HS, NE in my capital, and opening freedom. I do go all out to max GS and GE production, but how does this hurt you?
For instance, when you prioritize wonders/gardens and don't know what else over science/commerce/production buildings. If you pick Freedom over earlier pick of Rationalism policies. These choices might hurt your bpt and slow down the teching pace. Less trivial things: using specialists takes citizens away from food/commerce tiles which also slows down the growth, reduces the income and ultimately hurts research and ability to pay for RA's. Gardens and such and all GP also have maintenance costs. Usually I wouldn't see any of these as real problems and would say that generating GP are by far more important and beneficial, but the fact that you can't leverage this great amount of GP for better finish date suggests something isn't working.

I realize, in MP, against very good players, I'd be losing every science game, with my current strategy. What's a good turn # to shoot for?
I don't have any experience with Civ5 MP, but Civ4 experience tells me you should forget about science/cultural/diplo victories in MP.
In SP on deity if you don't care about crazy-optimizing everything and getting the earlier date possible, I'd say under 250 is decent and safe goal.

Great Advice Pilgrim, I think I should watch some science games on Youtube. I just played another science game with the same parameters. My land mass was overall very unproductive, but it had a lot of luxs. I went after every possible RA and got 14, then turned down 4 late offers (this is probably a best for me). But from mid-game on the AIs wanted one-sided RA trades, so I gave in. I was scrapping for every bit of gold I could, and never even got close to being able to buy a CS alliance. I got 18 GP, with 10 GS. Of course 5 of the 18, weren't natural (1 GS from PT, 2 GE from liberty finisher and HS, and 2 GA from Louvre). I do prioritize Louvre for those 2 golden ages, which pay for at least 2 RAs. Anyhow, I won on turn 349 (not too good(. My culture was terrible and I barely finished rationalism. The only thing I had going right was my happiness, which allowed me to sell a bunch of luxs to buy RAs.

I'm starting to see that the GP push is hurting my production, especially in my non-capital cities. I read a post on here about 10 days ago about setting up your cities such that you get loads of GSs. So, I've been trying to do that. But ultimately its really hard on 2nd and 3rd cities, and maybe not a great idea. Also, you are correct that using my non-capital cities to pick off unbuilt wonders is a waste.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'm starting to see that the GP push is hurting my production, especially in my non-capital cities. I read a post on here about 10 days ago about setting up your cities such that you get loads of GSs. So, I've been trying to do that. But ultimately its really hard on 2nd and 3rd cities, and maybe not a great idea. Also, you are correct that using my non-capital cities to pick off unbuilt wonders is a waste.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to respond.

For me atleast, going after GS's means getting as high a pop as possible. So I always prioritize rivers and food, idealy with jungle nearby. I do often delay running alot of specialists in my non-cap cities until they have the population to support them.

Also, don't neglect culture. Alot of people say you should not build temples. The faster you get through rationalism, the sooner you get to freedom. I try to time culture so I finish liberty and start straight on rationalism, plow it as fast as possible, and get the right side of freedom. Freedom will give you a huge tech bonus in the form of more GS's.

@ Joshua What you say makes a lot of sense. I was trying to max out GS production, but I realize now this isn't optimal play in science games. A dumb question, what tech allows rationalism to be opened? Astronomy or any Renaissance era tech? I think Pilgrim is correct that its better to open up rationalism before freedom. I normally try to run relatively high cpt in science games, this was just a very unproductive map.

Entering the Renaissance era via any tech (or researching every single Midevil tech); but its usally the fastest to get Astronomy.
(Research Education & build the PT via either HS or Liberty induced GE. Research Optics. Then use the GS from the PT to get Astronomy.)

As to policies, while I always choose base Rationalism ASAP when going for a science victory, I always save the rest of the tree for later.
If you wanted to max out GS produced, you'd choose base Freedom next and not wait to complete the Rationalism tree.

I think Pilgrim is correct that its better to open up rationalism before freedom.

Correct(for me at least). But only if you are unable to reach Rationalism before a mature wave of RAs. If you can be into the Rennaissance era and are able to get freedom AND rationalism before RAs well now you can open freedom first(learn ''when'' to ally a cultural cs ;))

First wave of RA's usually matures before all universities are up, so there is no point in choosing Freedom opener over Rationalism opener. What happens next depends. I think choosing Freedom or rushing the rest of Rationalism is pretty close to each other. And for maximizing GPP it's enough to go with right side of Freedom and left side of Rationalism. No need to fill both trees. Overall, the shorter game is the less significant Freedom bonus becomes. It comes down to how many additional GS it grants. Delaying Free Thought and Secularism might hurt mid-game teching pace if the base science isn't high. As a result future waves of RA's will clear cheaper techs and one might come short more than one or two techs that can be bulbed with additional GS. In such case I would give up of Freedom. Not to mention that maintaining high culture and picking many policies can be hard, since on deity at least AI will constantly steal CS and player's cash is tight.

@Tabarnak I always ally with a cultural CS if and "when" I have enough gold. Some games, I have 1000+ gold by late game, with a solid gpt income, then I can get one. In other games, I just never have enough gold. I think its dependent on the map. Are there other ways to get a cultural CS ally, other than taking out their nemisis?