I'll be on vacation all this week, until Sunday! Thursday!
Hello and welcome! This is a new modmod for Caveman2Cosmos! This seeks to reinvent the civics, but this IS a work in progress! If you have any complaints with this, please, PLEASE, post them here so I may fix them! Also, to look at a bunch of screen shots about his mod, click the Screenshot download below, and take a look.
To Install:To install, extract the file "Assets" to your Caveman2Cosmos" file. Click to replace all the files it asks. Have trouble? Leave a comment! ;)

Changes:
New Government Civics:
-Theocracy
-Confederacy
-Totalitarianism
-People's Republic
-Digital Democracy
-Technocracy
-Corporatocracy

New Power Civics:
-Sovereignty
-Clergy
-Magistrates
-Legislature
-Executive
-Separation of Powers
-Single Party

New Society Civics:
-Corpor-nation

New Politics (New) Civics:
-Strongman
-Patriarchy
-Matriarchy
-Divine Right
-Ownership
-Constitutionalism
-Liberalism
-Populism
-Nationalism
-Globalism

New Economy Civics:
-Subsistence
-Manorialism

New Military Civics:
-Integrated Network Command
-Militia
-Cloning
-Time Drafting
-Mercenaries

New Education Civic:
-Time Travel Education

New Currency (New) Civics:
-No Currency
-Metals
-Coinage
-Banknote
-Paper Money
-Gold Standard
-FIAT Currency
-Credit
-Digital

I have done a little testing with this, and it seems to, at least in my opinion, diversify the AI's Civics and give many new options. My first rule was to make all civics BALANCED, second was to make them realistic. Thanks for checking this modmod out, and have fun! :thumbsup:

Now compatible with SVN!
I will try to keep this updated with SVN.

To install, extract the file "Assets" to your Caveman2Cosmos" file. Click to replace all the files it asks. Have trouble? Leave a comment! ;)

Latest version released July 28, 2012

To-Do List:
1. Add "Tactics" Buildings for Military Civics
2. Redo current installation method with Dancing Hoskuld's extract idea Thanks bud!
3. Fix some XML text errors
4. Add "Corpor-nation", "Corporatocracy", and "Matriarchy" civics.
5. Redo Welfare civics. (I'd like to do more work with these, but can't until new tags are introduced)
6. Add new future civics (Working on)
7. Make simple civics
8. Replace Language civics with something easier. (Canceled)
9. Merge Military and Soldiers civic categories.

This is a new modmod for Caveman2Cosmos, it seeks to reinvent the civics. I have added three new civic categories, "Soldiers", "Currency", and "Politics". I have also completely redone Government Civics, as well as Power Civics. Keep in mind, this is a work in progress, and any adjustments made from here on out will be made from the opinions of you guys. :)
New Government Civicsadded include:
-Theocracy
-Confederacy
-People's Republic
- Digital Democracy
-Technocracy

New Power Civics include:
-Sovereignty
-Clergy
-Magistrates
-Legislature
-Executive
-Separation of Powers
-Single Party

Now I'm not going to include all the civics I added, just some examples. :) I have done a little testing with this, and it seems to, at least in my opinion, diversify the AI's Civics and give many new options. Sorry about the complex installation, I couldn't figure out a way around it. Please note! My first rule was to make all civics BALANCED, second was to make them realistic. Thanks for checking this modmod out, and have fun! :thumbsup:
this is very good even if some are a bit unnecessary
what about a corporative like goverment

how do you install this

I actually did consider a corporate type, but it didn't find it's way into this version. It might find its way into a later version however. To download, click the link, and extract all the files. Then just follow the instructions in the word document. Let me know if you have trouble understanding!

will try, thx

i would just like to say your concepts are freaki'n awesome!!!!!!!!! :goodjob:

the only thing i fear is that it might cause some balance issues because the civics are unbalanced as it is :( how would you get around that :confused:

edit: does this modmod support a save game or i have to start a new one???

Going to look this over. The current Civics are the work of Edrinfall who has disappeared from the forum and are imho incomplete. Edrin did clean up some trouble spots but I feel needed to continue. Maybe you will be able to complete this hard task. :)

JosEPh

Yes, I do find civics strangely fun to mod. I wouldnt mind at all doing more Civic related stuff, and I actually have a lot planned for this mod. :cool: And that is what I need you guys for: I don't want to add/change civics without consent from you guys, so your mission is to test and criticize it.:D

suggestion for the corporate goverment in order to make them mor unique.
they can build 2 special unit but not regular infantry ones and maybe some special tank

1 mercenary elite squad a strong unit like this http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100823084015/stalker/images/thumb/e/e0/Bulat_Front.jpg/250px-Bulat_Front.jpg but with a different weapon ( maybe smg)
you can build as many as you want but the cost in going to increase
2 private defence squad (needs private defence company building) like this
the same but less than the first
also in order to make installation easier why you dont put them in the folder that they need to be in order to just copy paste

I would actually like it if these just simply went into the main mod for the next versions and we could tweak and debate them out from there.

Have we ever considered, for the sake of gamebalance, establishing a scoring system for the pros and cons of a civic?

For this, we would just boil each possible civic impact trait down to a value + or -. After totaling up what a civic adjusts in terms of the overall + and - values, we can get a Power Score for the civic and use that to compare to the other civics. We could then use these power scores to balance the civics to each other accordingly (giving some concession for a bit of improvement for the ones that take later in the game (due to research) to achieve.)

Then, the real issue would be debating out the +/- value of each type of bonus or penalty. (For this it would be helpful to have more of us having access to running polls because at the end of each discussion on a given trait, we could each cast our vote and between the opinions of all of us, an average can be found that should represent the differences between various playstyles...)

So, for example, I might rate each +1 Experience to all troops as a value 10 each, a +% to gold as 2 each %pt, the ability to capture slaves as +50, the likelihood of city anarchies taking out rounds of production as -25, and on and on and utilize all these to give me an idea of what I REALLY think of the value of the civic. Your ideas on these values may differ and by polling we can take average opinions to assign the power rating values to each element.

Make any sense?

AFTERTHOUGHT: If you'd like, I could give you a gameoption that would turn your modmod on or off. To make it work, you'd have to get familiar with how to xml mod with optional conditions (Hydro and DH could help you there and its something I'll be needing a refresher course on myself soon) but it could be done so that we get you some more playtesting and feedback than you'd otherwise receive the way its currently implemented. Additionally, then it could just be updated live into the SVN. What do you think?

suggestion for the corporate goverment in order to make them mor unique.
they can build 2 special unit but not regular infantry ones and maybe some special tank

1 mercenary elite squad a strong unit like this http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100823084015/stalker/images/thumb/e/e0/Bulat_Front.jpg/250px-Bulat_Front.jpg but with a different weapon ( maybe smg)
you can build as many as you want but the cost in going to increase
2 private defence squad (needs private defence company building) like this
the same but less than the first
also in order to make installation easier why you dont put them in the folder that they need to be in order to just copy paste

I actually have a "Mercenaries" civic, so maybe that unit can find its way in there. And I really like some of the ideas from MAG, I might make a few units (With some help?)

Have we ever considered, for the sake of gamebalance, establishing a scoring system for the pros and cons of a civic?

For this, we would just boil each possible civic impact trait down to a value + or -. After totaling up what a civic adjusts in terms of the overall + and - values, we can get a Power Score for the civic and use that to compare to the other civics. We could then use these power scores to balance the civics to each other accordingly (giving some concession for a bit of improvement for the ones that take later in the game (due to research) to achieve.)

Then, the real issue would be debating out the +/- value of each type of bonus or penalty. (For this it would be helpful to have more of us having access to running polls because at the end of each discussion on a given trait, we could each cast our vote and between the opinions of all of us, an average can be found that should represent the differences between various playstyles...)

I haven't considered that, but it makes sense. It would be an excellent way to balance all the civics, as some could use some work, even still.

AFTERTHOUGHT: If you'd like, I could give you a gameoption that would turn your modmod on or off. To make it work, you'd have to get familiar with how to xml mod with optional conditions (Hydro and DH could help you there and its something I'll be needing a refresher course on myself soon) but it could be done so that we get you some more playtesting and feedback than you'd otherwise receive the way its currently implemented. Additionally, then it could just be updated live into the SVN. What do you think?

That would be excellent! :clap:I really do not like the complex way I had to do it, it'll probably turn off some people and cause errors with others. I might be able to just teach myself, and I'll try to get work on it right away!

I would actually like it if these just simply went into the main mod for the next versions and we could tweak and debate them out from there.


Well to take a page from Affroress with AND, he would add in AND mods he liked. I think we (the C2C Team) could do the same. However we are a lot less picky than he was.

Then again it may just be easier to add CIVPlayer8 to the C2C Team and have him add stuff to the SVN himself.

This post is now out of date and the opening post is correct.

I looked at this and it seems very well thought out balance wise. I would personally have no problem adding this to the main mod and tweaking as we go along.

I looked at this and it seems very well thought out balance wise. I would personally have no problem adding this to the main mod and tweaking as we go along.

Thanks man! I did spend lots of time coming up with pros and cons for each civic, but do you have any thoughts about improving it in any way? And whose permission would we have to get to add it to the main mod? This would be a pretty big undertaking...

There are discussions on the Theocracy civic happening elsewhere.

I had to remove your leader head and vote stuff to get it to work. :(

There are discussions on the Theocracy civic happening elsewhere.

I had to remove your leader head and vote stuff to get it to work. :(

Hmmm... I'll try and redo my installation instructions, maybe I left an error in somewhere... :hmm: However, maybe the problem might be the SVN... I don't use SVN, so some errors might come in from there.

Thanks man! I did spend lots of time coming up with pros and cons for each civic, but do you have any thoughts about improving it in any way? And whose permission would we have to get to add it to the main mod? This would be a pretty big undertaking...

I PM'ed SO about adding this as a module, so you might want to upload it in modular format. Do you know how to do this?

I thought I may have had an earlier version of your mod but I have the latest. :( Since I have just installed the new female missionaries and lost half the old, I think I should take a break and get my morning coffee before continuing trying to figure this out. ;)

I PM'ed SO about adding this as a module, so you might want to upload it in modular format. Do you know how to do this?

He does what I said he should do in my post on making it modular:mischief: except he should call the folder and prefix all the files with CIVPlayer8. ;)

So... Is it preferable then to establish an Advanced Civics gameoption and let it all get modded in conditional on the option being selected? (I'm asking everyone here... if we have a general consensus that this is the best way to approach this, then I'll set up the option. That's fairly quick and easy. The rest is all in how the XML is tagged as conditional to the option being on.)

I PM'ed SO about adding this as a module, so you might want to upload it in modular format. Do you know how to do this?

I don't know how... I followed Dancing Hoskuld's instructions above, but I got a error just as he did. Take a look at his instructions, and see if something is wrong?

So... Is it preferable then to establish an Advanced Civics gameoption and let it all get modded in conditional on the option being selected? (I'm asking everyone here... if we have a general consensus that this is the best way to approach this, then I'll set up the option. That's fairly quick and easy. The rest is all in how the XML is tagged as conditional to the option being on.)

My view is that having mod mods (and yes they are just modules and use the MLF to activate them) allows people to build and refine their ideas getting feedback from people. So far I have seen many people saying this is great and yet I have not managed to get it working as a module. So what have they done differently and where did they find the time to test every variation?

If it does turn out to be an excellent mod then we can look at other things like merging it into the main mod if most people agree it is an improvement over the existing stuff or making it an optional mod via a parameter if some people are totally agin it.

I believe you are getting ahead of yourself.

I don't know how... I followed Dancing Hoskuld's instructions above, but I got a error just as he did. Take a look at his instructions, and see if something is wrong?

The only error I had was with the leader head stuff and the fact that you are resetting some text to an earlier version. Give me 30 mins and I will post an alternate to your mod for you to compare. ;)

here are the civics, text and buildings part of your mod. They show up in game if in the incorrect order sometimes. I could probably cut down the civics file a bit but I was not sure what it was you were changing. i would also split the new civics groups into separate files but that is just a personal preferance forr modularity. ;)

My view is that having mod mods (and yes they are just modules and use the MLF to activate them) allows people to build and refine their ideas getting feedback from people. So far I have seen many people saying this is great and yet I have not managed to get it working as a module. So what have they done differently and where did they find the time to test every variation?

If it does turn out to be an excellent mod then we can look at other things like merging it into the main mod if most people agree it is an improvement over the existing stuff or making it an optional mod via a parameter if some people are totally agin it.

I believe you are getting ahead of yourself.
I can agree with that ;) Fair'nuff. I'll hold off on that for now then.

here are the civics, text and buildings part of your mod. They show up in game if in the incorrect order sometimes. I could probably cut down the civics file a bit but I was not sure what it was you were changing. i would also split the new civics groups into separate files but that is just a personal preferance forr modularity.

Thanks for looking things over but... what did you change? So far everything seems intact...

He does what I said he should do in my post on making it modular:mischief: except he should call the folder and prefix all the files with CIVPlayer8. ;)

B-I-N-G-O:p

Thanks for looking things over but... what did you change? So far everything seems intact...

It maybe that you uploaded more than you intended.:) I did not put the leader head, vote or event stuff in the module. Note that you had all your new civics in there.

Oh, thanks but, I thought you had to put in the leader head, because some of their favcivics are no longer included:)

Oh, thanks but, I thought you had to put in the leader head, because some of their favcivics are no longer included:)

You only need to include those that you are changing not all of them. I probably did not have any problems with my test because none of the ones I got had non existing civics. You also had 2 leader head files in your original download.

Blast that is a point! You can't remove civics if you are making a mod. :( I don't think force over write tag works either to remove a civic.

Uh oh... What should I do then? I don't really like the idea of putting the ones I took out back in... It won't fit right.:help:

First I would make a mod mod of your new civics. Then I would make a patch with your changed civics.

The patch would contain the files you are replacing in the core C2C with your changes to them. You would have to warn people that they would probably have to apply the patch every time they updated from the SVN and you would have to keep your patch in line with the SVN when changes are made to parts which are not yours.

Edit The electricity is about to go off here for the rest of the day. So I am going to be no help for awhile. I don't like the idea of making your stuff the default C2C without some trials and there is already discussion on some of these civics and more else where.

Okay I'll do it, even if it means downloading that darn SVN. BTW, I think I'am in support of Thunderbrd's proposal to make this a game option. It's a lot more...accessible.

Okay I'll do it, even if it means downloading that darn SVN. BTW, I think I'am in support of Thunderbrd's proposal to make this a game option. It's a lot more...accessible.

In which case it just becomes part of the core and "we" need to merge your code into the core code prefixing each bit "civic" definition by if the option is set. It will naturally make balancing stuff more difficult:mischief:. Civic balancing even more so.

Your "Soldiers", "Currency", and "Politics" can still be a mod mod or even three, since I really dislike your currency one. I can't see where things other than coins that were/are used as currency fit in eg cowrie shells, coco beans, pig tusks (actual currency in use today) and so on.

Can I vote as simple player of c2c since version 6 and huge fan of this mod, and heavy user of SVN updates For this mod mod to be included in mod itself as an option? Becouse I've tried to make this work, but I failed :) also the fact that it doesn't work with svns is a bit discouraging, cuz SVN updates sometimes save your current game :) thanks guys !

Trying it out, your new civics don't play nice either. :( This mod mod of yours is not a mod mod at all it is a complete change!:mischief:

Well, currency I added to find a home for coinage, as it doesn't really belong in Economy. And yeah, I can foresee the drastic changes in gameplay with making this an option. But I don't know about you, but when I see a option that has 'advanced' in its name, I click it!:lol: Gregori, don't worry, I'm soon going to make it compatible with SVN, but first I have to change a few things. Wait, you failed to? Hmm... I might have to rename some stuff. And Danxing Hoskuld, when you say they don't play nice, do you mean they get errors a lot, or it's a challenge?

Well, currency I added to find a home for coinage, as it doesn't really belong in Economy. And yeah, I can foresee the drastic changes in gameplay with making this an option. But I don't know about you, but when I see a option that has 'advanced' in its name, I click it!:lol: Gregori, don't worry, I'm soon going to make it compatible with SVN, but first I have to change a few things. Wait, you failed to? Hmm... I might have to rename some stuff. And Danxing Hoskuld, when you say they don't play nice, do you mean they get errors a lot, or it's a challenge?

In this case they don't appear in the correct order.

Well, currency I added to find a home for coinage, as it doesn't really belong in Economy. And yeah, I can foresee the drastic changes in gameplay with making this an option. But I don't know about you, but when I see a option that has 'advanced' in its name, I click it!:lol: Gregori, don't worry, I'm soon going to make it compatible with SVN, but first I have to change a few things. Wait, you failed to? Hmm... I might have to rename some stuff. And Danxing Hoskuld, when you say they don't play nice, do you mean they get errors a lot, or it's a challenge?

Thx man for making the additional stuff for this awesome mod :goodjob:
Yeah, well id say i failed rather due to my own innability to make it properly work, or due to brokenhands.dll of mine :D, but i guess its easy as it is for more advanced folks. I mean i am sure i can manage to make it work after some time, but i am tooo lazy to dig into it right now. But thx again.

Oh, well I actually didn't set them in order... I can set them in order for the next patch though, won't be hard at all! And Gregori, believe me, I ain't advanced at all in this stuff. I still have a lot to learn.

@all modders If we are going to have this mod as core Advance Civics option then can we change the existing ones to be almost as simple as vanilla Civ IV? There is no point in having an advanced set ehich is not much different to the normal set.

@all modders If we are going to have this mod as core Advance Civics option then can we change the existing ones to be almost as simple as vanilla Civ IV? There is no point in having an advanced set ehich is not much different to the normal set.

I haven't looked at this yet:(, do you have a complete working copy you can upload to a free server so i can take a look at what is going on, thx.:) You know for us OLE timers, time is precious.:old:

I haven't looked at this yet:(, do you have a complete working copy you can upload to a free server so i can take a look at what is going on, thx.:) You know for us OLE timers, time is precious.:old:

No, I don't. It is a complete replacement for the core civics files. I'll see what I can do to set up a working "patch" with this in. that way you can always revert to the SVN version after testing.

I have almost finished the improvement reballance part 1. I also have an algorithm for the Via Appia and Golden Spike wonders that will appease Epona222.:mischief:

Keep in mind I plan on changing this modmod lots, and the end product might be very different. I'm also close to finishing what you asked, Dancing Hoskuld, with the modmod, and the patch.

I haven't looked at this yet:(, do you have a complete working copy you can upload to a free server so i can take a look at what is going on, thx.:) You know for us OLE timers, time is precious.:old:

Yeah a list of all the changes would be nice.

Yeah a list of all the changes would be nice.

Will do! :D

Please remove any references to "IMPROVEMENT_APPLE_FARM" in your civics. That improvement is going from C2C to be replaced by a more generic "IMPROVEMENT_ORCHARD". The current civics will also need it removed.

The currency civic can't be separated from the patch civic since it uses "coinage" which is in one of the other core civics. The others are OK.

Will do! :D

except corporate goverment could you include a corporate society civic

I will, but please explain how such a society would work. It would be cool to include a "Corporate" option for many civics, to show a government taken over by corporations, but how would a society civic work?

but how would a society civic work?

the whole nation would be a huge corporation : massive decrease in happiness , massive increase in :commerce: and smaller in :hammers: , small decrease in science and great people , small amount decrease :yuck: and :culture: and small increase:espionage: . big subsidized bonus for corporation. of course other suggestions are needed to make this more unique .

the whole nation would be a huge corporation
Oh! I think I see what you're getting at, where every citizen of the "country" is in effect working for a mega corporation, from the moment they're born? Okay... yes this is very doable. I can see this, and is a great concept, bill2505! However, I think if I'm going to make this civic, it should require "Corporate Economy" and "Corporate Welfare" civics, so I WILL make this, but only once the tag comes out that makes one civic require another.
Dancing Hoskuld,
I'am trying to get a module of CIVPlayer8 running on my own computer, but am running into some difficulties. I added the "Directory>CIVPlayer8" to the modularloadingcontrols, and copied the two modular loading files into my folder, but am still getting errors. Could you possibly give me a quick review of what to do? :crazyeye:

I have one of the SVN's, and whenever I try to get this to work, the new civic categories are blank and I get error messages when I start up C2C.

Any suggestions?

Oh! I think I see what you're getting at, where every citizen of the "country" is in effect working for a mega corporation, from the moment they're born? Okay... yes this is very doable. I can see this, and is a great concept, bill2505! However, I think if I'm going to make this civic, it should require "Corporate Economy" and "Corporate Welfare" civics, so I WILL make this, but only once the tag comes out that makes one civic require another.


i took this idea from anno 2070.
dont forget the private defence agency civic

also just throwing another idea about the corporate goverment civic.as you know in this corporate fictional goverment everything is going to be made by corporations.so having buildings like
"Construction Department" : makes your buildings build faster (in a balanced way) but cost a lot maintenance
"farming Department"= makes farms a bit more productive) but has hight maintenance
Commerse Departemnt= increases the commerces of tiles(maybe water too) hight upkeep

I have not yet updated this modmod for SVN, I will do it after I figure out my trouble with the module though.:) It shouldn't be more than a few days.

"Construction Department" : makes your buildings build faster (in a balanced way) but cost a lot maintenance
"farming Department"= makes farms a bit more productive) but has hight maintenance
Commerse Departemnt= increases the commerces of tiles(maybe water too) hight upkeep

We already have the cranes, which increase building production, so maybe not the construction department. The other two sound nice though. Are you suggesting a "Corporate" government type and a "Corporate" society type, or just one?

I have not yet updated this modmod for SVN, I will do it after I figure out my trouble with the module though.:) It shouldn't be more than a few days.



We already have the cranes, which increase building production, so maybe not the construction department. The other two sound nice though. Are you suggesting a "Corporate" government type and a "Corporate" society type, or just one?

i thing both . for coporate society isuggest this name
Corporatism :Corporatism, also known as corporativism, is a system of economic, political, or social organization that involves association of the people of society into corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labor, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of common interests.

2 i suggest a corporate power civic named Board of directors or council.even if you(the player ) is the chairman you cannot do what you want. the real power in the company are the board of directors(or council) . members of this board are rich Shareholders of the company .
this civic will give corporation subsidized bonus and reduce maintence (to portray the fact that the buy shares of the company ) . increases instability and unhappines

The problem with corporate government is what does it represent? Is a corporate gvnmt a dictatorship, or a democracy? It should be represented by current civics I think.

The problem with corporate government is what does it represent? Is a corporate gvnmt a dictatorship, or a democracy? It should be represented by current civics I think.

Probably "rule by the shareholders" or "board of directors" which makes it an oligarchy. ;)

Yes, exactly. Some civics can be represented in others.
Dancing Hoskuld,
I'am trying to get a module of CIVPlayer8 running on my own computer, but am running into some difficulties. I added the "Directory>CIVPlayer8" to the modularloadingcontrols, and copied the two modular loading files into my folder, but am still getting errors. Could you possibly give me a quick review of what to do?

BTW bill2505, I'm really liking some of the ideas your making, and am already coming up with society civic "Corporatocracy". Keep them coming!:goodjob:

Yes, exactly. Some civics can be represented in others.
Dancing Hoskuld,
I'am trying to get a module of CIVPlayer8 running on my own computer, but am running into some difficulties. I added the "Directory>CIVPlayer8" to the modularloadingcontrols, and copied the two modular loading files into my folder, but am still getting errors. Could you possibly give me a quick review of what to do?

BTW bill2505, I'm really liking some of the ideas your making, and am already coming up with society civic "Corporatocracy". Keep them coming!:goodjob:

ok thank but i wonder how you will name the goverment corporate civic(if you name corporatocrasy the sociate one) . the problem with using oligarchy is that actually there is not civic like that but junta which is about generals(mostly)

Hmm.. Yeah, I might have to rename it. Hows this for the society one:-20 corp. maint., -1:health: , +20% worker build speed, -2 :), +5% :hammers:, +10% :commerce:, -10% :culture:, +20% :espionage:, and +10% :commerce: from trade routes. Note I haven't yet added the buildings.

Hmm.. Yeah, I might have to rename it. Hows this for the society one:-20 corp. maint., -1:health: , +20% worker build speed, -2 :), +5% :hammers:, +10% :commerce:, -10% :culture:, +20% :espionage:, and +10% :commerce: from trade routes. Note I haven't yet added the buildings.
but you will have to change the bonus also because now junta is too military centered.
maybe add an increase in mentainance per city to simulate the fact that such an organized state is tought to run(and keep) and and a 5%:hammers: in the capital to simulate the fact that the goveremnt HQ are there. what about some - stability .

name for new building : Department of Science and Technology,Health and longevity Department

Well remember, Junta means :military-run":) Yeah, I'll add + maintenance and -stability, but I have to add something else positive to keep it balanced... I think the main plus of this new society civic will be all the new buildings it will unlock. I'll write down your new ideas, and sleep on it.
BTW, instead of adding a new civic called "Private Defense Corp.", I'm adding a unique building to "Mercenaries" called "Private Contractor". This will basically increase XP and mil. production time, but cost some gold.
Shout out to anyone: I could use a tutorial on making a module! I have all summer to mod this thing, so lets get started! :D

Well remember, Junta means :military-run":) Yeah, I'll add + maintenance and -stability, but I have to add something else positive to keep it balanced... I think the main plus of this new society civic will be all the new buildings it will unlock. I'll write down your new ideas, and sleep on it.
BTW, instead of adding a new civic called "Private Defense Corp.", I'm adding a unique building to "Mercenaries" called "Private Contractor". This will basically increase XP and mil. production time, but cost some gold.
Shout out to anyone: I could use a tutorial on making a module! I have all summer to mod this thing, so lets get started! :D

exactly but in a corporation goverment the power is not in the military but in the head of the corp..... and the shareholders .
about private defence corp what about doing it this way. the building private contractor or defence corp makes availiable two units. private military squad(regular soldier)
and private elite force. you can build as many units from this you want but the cost every time will be a bit higher. but with this civic you cannot recrut regular soldiers i thing this will be more unique. in the end its your call:D

also new idea . give to corporate civic huge debuf like - 30% science but when they build the science deparment building they get 35%
science.the same about construction
also a new corporate HQ building that will replace palace would be good

Eh, I was thinking you COULD recruit all types of units with Mercenaries, but they all cost +1 gold per turn. And the two units I will have to do some brainstorming on. Did you get your ideas from MAG? Some of their concepts are pretty cool.
I'm not too sure of that massive science debuff, I mean isn't innovation what corporations are all about? So maybe it gets no boost on research, but a building can be built for a small boost, +5% (We're talking about the society one, right?)

Sorry, my Friday classes spilled over into Thursday this week. Do you have a latest version on your stuff?

I have actually done step one of what you asked (Convert it to a module, and make it so it doesn't get rid of any civics) and am working on step 2. The SVN is installing right now. :)

Eh, I was thinking you COULD recruit all types of units with Mercenaries, but they all cost +1 gold per turn. And the two units I will have to do some brainstorming on. Did you get your ideas from MAG? Some of their concepts are pretty cool.
I'm not too sure of that massive science debuff, I mean isn't innovation what corporations are all about? So maybe it gets no boost on research, but a building can be built for a small boost, +5% (We're talking about the society one, right?)

about mercenary civic as you said there are some issues. there are two ways of mercenary recruting one like the USA where it has the regular soldiers but can recruit regular soldiers. this fits into usa but in a corporate civic(government not society) it doesnt . in a extreme corporate government everything runs in corporations so you cant have recruits or regular soldiers that are being paid from the state but private military company that will supply the government with soldiers for return with money.Second my idea will make the corporate more unique.third i hate the same unit represent two things one is the regular soldiers and the other the mercenary regardless of the added cost.pluss i thing that a private company wouldnt have so many units rather one regular soldier one elite, maybe a sniper unit and some vehicles . and no i didnt get the idea from mag but from resident evil umbrella(that why i insist on my military idea)

about my science debuf idea first i was not refering only to science but to construction too. my idea( maybe i am wrong here) was that when you change to a corporate goverment the nation becomes a huge corporation that is jack of all trades and in order to speciallize it needs to hire other companies or creating them (for constuction,science and maybe others) to specialize in a field simulating this with building those departments buildings.now what idea should be linked to the goverment or society corporate civic i dont know . i thing i became confused):D

Alright, but you have to remember two things. One, I'm not sure it's possible for a civic to "lock" you from building a unit. Two, if we could, we would have to make A "Merc Anti Tank" and "Merc Assault Force" and "Merc Modern Armor" and so forth. It seems like it'll be easier to just let the regular units represent the two things, which may not be accurate, but is defiantly the easiest.

On the other issue, I see where your coming from. Your imagining one corporation (like McDonalds, for example) comes in, takes over government, and rule from there. Yeah, this is a broad term, so I understand you. But I think the society "Corporate" civic is going to be unlocked by "Megacorporations." A mega corporation is a company that specializes in all fields. (Ever see WALL-E? That one company, Buy n Large, is a mega corporation) They mastered industry, agriculture, media, etc. But I believe we can still make those "Departments" you were talking about earlier, those would be good! :yup:

(Ever see WALL-E? That one company, Buy n Large, is a mega corporation)

I included the BnL logo in the megacorporation tech icon (along with other fictional megacorporations).

Alright, but you have to remember two things. One, I'm not sure it's possible for a civic to "lock" you from building a unit. Two, if we could, we would have to make A "Merc Anti Tank" and "Merc Assault Force" and "Merc Modern Armor" and so forth. It seems like it'll be easier to just let the regular units represent the two things, which may not be accurate, but is defiantly the easiest.

On the other issue, I see where your coming from. Your imagining one corporation (like McDonalds, for example) comes in, takes over government, and rule from there. Yeah, this is a broad term, so I understand you. But I think the society "Corporate" civic is going to be unlocked by "Megacorporations." A mega corporation is a company that specializes in all fields. (Ever see WALL-E? That one company, Buy n Large, is a mega corporation) They mastered industry, agriculture, media, etc. But I believe we can still make those "Departments" you were talking about earlier, those would be good! :yup:
ok do whats easier for you;)
to clarify my military idea wasw not not letting the corp.... goverment recruiting tanks but. mostly infantry units because in private military companies infantries have uniformity so seeing different units would be a bit bad.plus that was excuse this civic from some aufull future units:mischief:

Oh, so no tanks, but just a "super-infantry unit", if you will? But I don't want it TOO overpowered, that's the problem. Maybe we can try to make it good enough so you'll build as many of these units as you can, but not so good that it can take on any unit. Another question, should there be a upgrade chain? Like the Bandit Footpad (In game) upgrades to one unit, and another, until eventually it reaches the modern era?

Oh, so no tanks, but just a "super-infantry unit", if you will? But I don't want it TOO overpowered, that's the problem. Maybe we can try to make it good enough so you'll build as many of these units as you can, but not so good that it can take on any unit. Another question, should there be a upgrade chain? Like the Bandit Footpad (In game) upgrades to one unit, and another, until eventually it reaches the modern era?
they could still recruit tanks and stuff like this just not infatry ones(to be honest having unique tank units would be very good but very difficult too so regular tanks can do the job)
the regular private soldiers will not be a super unit but a bit better than regular. the elite force(second unit) will be very strong but in a realistic way no defeating huge tanks.
about "upgrade chain " do you mean a unit that can upgrade into different units(regular soldier that can upgrade to sniper or heavy machine gun) .If you mean this i am against because i find very
unrealistic an army full of heavy machine gunners and snipers (of course i may have not understand what you ask very well).if you mean a
unit to have the same upgrade path (regular infantry in the end can upgrade into an infantry tank(or whatever its name is) then cannot help you very much because i am against the general idea of units upgrading to tanks. i dont thing
in any timeline expensive tanks will replace cheap meat with guns( if you get me). plus when i thing about future warfare something like this comes in my mind http://mp1st.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ghost-recon-cover-600x337.jpg and not some ungly tanks

I mean like, Merc Infantry (Strength 34) upgrades to Assault Merc Infantry (Strength 40, for example) And don't worry, I won't have infantry upgrading into tanks (modern infantry upgrading into mechanicized infantry still irks me a little)

I mean like, Merc Infantry (Strength 34) upgrades to Assault Merc Infantry (Strength 40, for example) And don't worry, I won't have infantry upgrading into tanks (modern infantry upgrading into mechanicized infantry still irks me a little)

It doesn't upgrade from Infantry to Mech Infantry any more, try updating your SVN.:)

Oops, my bad:crazyeye:
BTW bill2505, I was thinking for a new name for the Corporation Society civic, and I came up with "Corpor-nation" what'dya think of the name?

Oops, my bad:crazyeye:
BTW bill2505, I was thinking for a new name for the Corporation Society civic, and I came up with "Corpor-nation" what'dya think of the name?

corpor:rolleyes: i thing Corporatism nation would be more right

Maybe, but corpor-nation sound more fluid...

Maybe, but corpor-nation sound more fluid...

then its your call then:p . but without being offensive corpor looks like more dog name

Lol a dog name? Maybe.. So is there any other civic ideas you have?:)

Lol a dog name? Maybe.. So is there any other civic ideas you have?:)
yeah what about centralization and decentralization

1 centralization= examples rome or eastern roman empire. the capital is the ultimate focus in the empire (or nation) while sometimes is looked upon it with nationalistic or even religion importance.
effect = no :mad: in the capital, 4:mad: in all cities ,1:health: in capital - 1:health: in all cities 10 %:hammers: in capital - 5%:hammers: in all cities.10% :food: in capital -10 % :food: in all others cities ,+5% :science: in capital - 5%:science: in all other cities,5%:culture: in capital - 5%:culture: in all others cities
deacrease regional stability and increases maintanance from naumber of cities.

2 none=default

3 Decentralization= holy roman empire. every city has more or less the same focus and usually they have some form of autonomy. 5%:food: in all cities, 5%:hammers: in all cities,5%:science: all cities,5%:culture: . increase regional stability but decreases national , decreases maintenance from number of cities

A new civic category? I dunno... We're already at 15... That is pretty good idea though... Some of the other guys we're talking about "ordinances", sort of half civics that you check off as you want them applied. Your two ideas might fit better as a ordinance than a civic, in fact, I'll go see if there's information on it right now!

A new civic category? I dunno... We're already at 15... That is pretty good idea though... Some of the other guys we're talking about "ordinances", sort of half civics that you check off as you want them applied. Your two ideas might fit better as a ordinance than a civic, in fact, I'll go see if there's information on it right now!

when this modmod will be uplied to the regular game? about civic category yeah i thing you are right.if they include it in the ordinances mod it would be very good. if not its your choice to add it or no

Yeah, I hope someone would do this for us. I don't think it'd be too hard. Okay, I think for now I'm going to work on civic-unique buildings and units. BTW, do you have SVN? If you do, download the new version out!

when this modmod will be uplied to the regular game? about civic category yeah i thing you are right.if they include it in the ordinances mod it would be very good. if not its your choice to add it or no

When it is agreed that it is good.:mischief: I am spending a great deal of time trying to balance the resources at the moment which means a lot of

1) generate map,
2) check resources,
3) exit game,
4) adjust resources
5) go to 1.:scan:

A couple of quick questions:

1. Can I apply this to v23, as opposed to SVN? Do I just use the first download and install where indicated above?

2. Looking at the first post, does it revise/remove any existing civics in addition to adding new ones?

Thanks! :)

A couple of quick questions:

1. Can I apply this to v23, as opposed to SVN? Do I just use the first download and install where indicated above?

2. Looking at the first post, does it revise/remove any existing civics in addition to adding new ones?

Thanks! :)

1. I was afraid someone was gonna ask this. :lol: Right now, you need SVN to install the patch. However, I will go ahead and make a patch available to those who don't have SVN. :)

2.Yes, it both revises some (not too much) and removes some, but adds a lot more to replace it, so don't worry.

1. I was afraid someone was gonna ask this. :lol: Right now, you need SVN to install the patch. However, I will go ahead and make a patch available to those who don't have SVN. :)

2.Yes, it both revises some (not too much) and removes some, but adds a lot more to replace it, so don't worry.

what about adding stratocrasy

what about adding stratocrasy

"A stratocracy is a form of government headed by military chiefs...It is not the same as a military dictatorship where the military's political power is not enforced or even supported by other laws. Rather, stratocracy is a form of military government in which the state and the military are traditionally the same thing and government positions are always occupied by military leaders. The military's political power is supported by law and the society." -Wikipedia

...Maybe...It sounds kinda close to Junta though... Would it be Power or Government or Politics?

@Civplayer8


I added 40+ new Techs to C2C, (im the Tech's guy now), were added to the Transhuman Era, i think you might find Digital Culture, Cybersociology, Futuristic Theology, Gene Jurisprudence, and Virtual Society may inspire new civic ideas.

@Civplayer8


I added 40+ new Techs to C2C, (im the Tech's guy now), were added to the Transhuman Era, i think you might find Digital Culture, Cybersociology, Futuristic Theology, Gene Jurisprudence, and Virtual Society may inspire new civic ideas.

Alright, thanks for letting me know. :) Let me just update my SVN, and see if something can be done!

Edit: Taking a look, I found a couple of techs that sparked new ideas! Thanks! BTW, Gene Jurisprudence will be great as an ordinance, as will lots of your other technologies.

"A stratocracy is a form of government headed by military chiefs...It is not the same as a military dictatorship where the military's political power is not enforced or even supported by other laws. Rather, stratocracy is a form of military government in which the state and the military are traditionally the same thing and government positions are always occupied by military leaders. The military's political power is supported by law and the society." -Wikipedia

...Maybe...It sounds kinda close to Junta though... Would it be Power or Government or Politics?

in stratocracy from what i undertand the nation is a whole military barrack,even the traders belong to the military.
what this civic should give, hight upkeep ,very bad at economics and culture,increase in :mad: but also ncrease in stability , they can draft a vast amount of soldiers in their cities and a big experience gain

I get these errors when i put your files in your folder??

EDIT: See below posts.

I get these errors when i put your files in your folder??

It is not all modular. Mostly CIVPlayer8 either forgot to put a copy in his folder or is not linking to it in the XML.

It is not all modular. Mostly CIVPlayer8 either forgot to put a copy in his folder or is not linking to it in the XML.

OK, i just took a better look at what he did, and he has alot of files all mixed up, and some schema's missing also.

Wait wait. The patch doesn't go in my folder, only the initial download. To install the patch, you must follow the instructions in the word document.

Wait wait. The patch doesn't go in my folder, only the initial download. To install the patch, you must follow the instructions in the word document.

I did it the easy way, i think try this out. (besides i dont have a .doc reader.)

:dubious: Wow... I can't believe I didn't do this before.. Thank you strategyonly! I'm sure many users of this mod will thank you! :goodjob: Although I do have to fix a thing or two, it'll make the download process much easier. Thanks again!

:dubious: Wow... I can't believe I didn't do this before.. Thank you strategyonly! I'm sure many users of this mod will thank you! :goodjob: Although I do have to fix a thing or two, it'll make the download process much easier. Thanks again!

You are most welcome, and thank you for even doing any modding at all, and expanding C2C in any shape or way you can, anything can always be helpful, or just even trying sometimes helps.:goodjob:

Did you notice that the original files in CilivilzatonInfo and BuildingInfos, all i did was rename them with a .bak just incase they want to go back to the original civics for some odd reason.:mischief: Then also making sure they put your module to 0 again rather than 1.

Out of curiosity - how well is the AI handling the new civics?

Out of curiosity - how well is the AI handling the new civics?

I just started a NEW game (so dont have an opinion yet) and well there is alot of changes that will have to be made alone in just the CivilizationInfo (and Custom Civ in the modules area) each civ anyways because of these changes.

What is svn?

Out of curiosity - how well is the AI handling the new civics?

They're doing pretty good, I can see they're diversifying and not just going with Despotism, but then again, I haven't gotten too far.

I just started a NEW game (so dont have an opinion yet) and well there is alot of changes that will have to be made alone in just the CivilizationInfo (and Custom Civ in the modules area) each civ anyways because of these changes.

Well, there wasn't too much, I just had to remove Nobility, Parliament, and Banditry from their fav civic.

What is svn?

Take a look here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=429816
It's basically where the developers can make daily changes to the mod, as opposed to waiting two months for each new version.

They're doing pretty good, I can see they're diversifying and not just going with Despotism, but then again, I haven't gotten too far.

Well, there wasn't too much, I just had to remove Nobility, Parliament, and Banditry from their fav civic.


Well actually as i said, there IS alot of work to do YET!! Each and every civ listed in C2C has to be changed.

But as far as i can see the AI is handling it quite well as you explained (see attached) when the new civic became available to them they took it, and when a better one came along they moved out of your civics and back to some of the older ones again, so doesnt look to bad yet, but i am not out of the Prehistoric Era yet?????

Each and every civ listed in C2C has to be changed.

What do you mean?

when the new civic became available to them they took it, and when a better one came along they moved out of your civics and back to some of the older ones again, so doesnt look to bad yet, but i am not out of the Prehistoric Era yet?????

I AI autoplayed a couple of games to medieval era, played a game to classic, and am in the ancient age now in my game, they seem to be stable, and adjust their civics to their needs. :whew:

What do you mean?

Meaning this: (CivilizationInfo)


<InitialCivics>
<CivicType>CIVIC_ANARCHISM</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_OLIGARCHY</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_PRIMITIVE</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_COMMUNALISM</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_BANDITS</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_IRRELIGION</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_SURVIVAL</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_NOTRASH</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_NOBORDERS</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_IGNORANCE</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_NO_SPEAK</CivicType>
<CivicType>CIVIC_NOFARM</CivicType>
</InitialCivics>

Has to be changed for each and every civ including the module ones for NO conflicts arise.

Also you put the CivicInfo (the one you made back into the XML folder, no need for it, its included in YOUR CP8_CIV4CivicInfos already.

Plus no need for others to place stuff anyplace, you can do it for them, thats how i had it set up, just take out the stuff that isn't change, ie ArtStylesInfo etc , if you make others do it, they will sooner or later mess it up, look what happened when i just had 2 parts of a main mod to do, it was a nightmare. I was just giving you an example is all.
Just put everything in its place and people can do an override, thats why i started it with a main folder Caveman2Cosmos, 10 times easier that way, IMHO.

But its your modmod, have at it.

EDIT: Another thing, make this YOUR modmod, place the NEW civics were they belong, if they belong on the top of the civic, PUT them there, in the middle do the same etc etc, make it YOURs, you control all aspects of it, make it the BEST you can, and people would appreciate it more if you do, just some words of advise is all, just trying to help you out, thats what Kael did for me, when i first started out.

just some words of advise is all, just trying to help you out, thats what Kael did for me, when i forst started out.

Wow, Kael mentored you!? :eek:

Wow, Kael mentored you!? :eek:

Yeppers, he was the one that first encouraged me to do stuff in FfH1, he said if i didnt like the way things were the way i liked them do a modmod, which i did, and HE was the one that got me into making 100's of maps for CFC.

there are some small problems with some pars of the mod. for example standing army belongs to the military civic while volunteer service belongs to soldier civic which is the opposite of standing armies and it should be in the same category.some also also soldier civic has many civics that doesnt match its other

Meaning this: (CivilizationInfo)
Oh... This'll take awhile.

Also you put the CivicInfo (the one you made back into the XML folder, no need for it, its included in YOUR CP8_CIV4CivicInfos already.
I know. :) I did it on purpose, it is the only way to remove civics no longer needed, such as Patrician and Parliament.

Plus no need for others to place stuff anyplace, you can do it for them, thats how i had it set up, just take out the stuff that isn't change, ie ArtStylesInfo etc , if you make others do it, they will sooner or later mess it up, look what happened when i just had 2 parts of a main mod to do, it was a nightmare. I was just giving you an example is all.
Just put everything in its place and people can do an override, thats why i started it with a main folder Caveman2Cosmos, 10 times easier that way, IMHO.
Well, it is necessary (I think) to place the ROM_GameText in the XML, not the modules, because some would be named wrongly (Like Totalitarianism would be named Fascist, which is not what it is) and the Pets one I did because there would be some weird error, it would show an invisible Power civic. But I agree with you, I might just put everything in its place like you said.

place the NEW civics were they belong, if they belong on the top of the civic, PUT them there, in the middle do the same etc etc
I would like to, but the thing is, I don't know how :( I tried rearranging their order in the CivicInfos, but to no avail.

for example standing army belongs to the military civic while volunteer service belongs to soldier civic which is the opposite of standing armies and it should be in the same category
Are you sure you downloaded it right? I took out Standing Army. Also, please explain what you mean here: also soldier civic has many civics that doesnt match its other Thanks for the feedback :)

Double Post :mad:

Double Post :mad:

standing army civic and volunteer service are both a military system so they should been in the same civic category. in m games they are not together
for civic inconsistency . for example in military civic standing army civic is a military system but the blitzkrieg one is a tactic the germans used in ww2 . the same with formation

@StrategyOnly The main reasons this can't be a stand alone module but must replace the core files are

- some civics are moved between catagories
- some are removed.

This would require the WoC system to either set back to default or delete parts of the original which it does not. So if you tray it as a module you end up with currency (iirc) in two civic groups.

Yeppers, he was the one that first encouraged me to do stuff in FfH1, he said if i didnt like the way things were the way i liked them do a modmod, which i did, and HE was the one that got me into making 100's of maps for CFC.

That's so cool! Then again I was mentored by Afforess which is also a CFC legend. Its amazing how helping someone can lead to them doing great things.

@StrategyOnly The main reasons this can't be a stand alone module but must replace the core files are

- some civics are moved between categories
- some are removed.

This would require the WoC system to either set back to default or delete parts of the original which it does not. So if you tray it as a module you end up with currency (iirc) in two civic groups.

I understand what your saying and agree.

It HAS to replace the core C3C files, thats ok, but the rest then can be in the modules area, or just completely change the core, which i recommend doing so, and keep only the regular modules (ie Hydro's Pet stuff) in the modules area only.
Thats fine with me, like i said, its his modmod.
Also this way if "we" decide its a good idea for his stuff to be in C2C the transfer wouldn't be that hard to do then either.
I hope i explain this good enough, i am not that good with words.:blush:

One problem is that it is called "Advanced" which means there should be a "simple" also. One in which the civics only affect one or two things not multiple stuff all over the place. Eg the religion civics would only affect religion, not gold, not science etc. they may have a flow on effect because of the buildings and units but not any direct affect.

So what IS your opinion of this modmod?:) At the least, I could take over the Civic modding for C2C, because our last guy left.

To view more futuristic governments go here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bcf91694e54

To view more futuristic governments go here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bcf91694e54

Thanks, I'll be sure to check it out.
BTW: Update on this mod! I'm currently working on some civic specific units, and will be working on adding new civics next.

I am getting an XML CIVIC_BANDITRY (sp?) not found. I also notice it is used in parts of the civics definition that are not checked. I am assuming that your first post contains the latest version of this modmod. I have a few suggestions on a better way of presenting this modmod for instal but that will have to wait til after my appointments this morning. ;)

Oh don't worry about that error, if it is the one I'm thinking of. It checks Custom Civilizations before CIVPlayer8, an shows an error. Then it checks my module, and it corrects the error,(I think) so no harm is done, just the message. And believe me, I'm all ears on a better installation. :)

Recently installed this and besides getting some error messages when booting up (something about conflicts or not finding leaderheads, I'm not sure) it worked fine for the most part. The default civic for Power seemed to have no entry or name or information besides enabling construction of the Field of the Cloth of Gold Gold. Nothing went wrong for some time but some turns the game just aborts without so much as a warning message. Nothing, it just ended.

I went through the files to see what might have gone wrong. I was suspicious of one before I started - CIV4CivicInfos is broken. I knew I should have been more suspicious when I noticed that the file was 6kbs compared to the original file's 566kb. I've switched back to the original file and whilst the unnamed default civic for Power is still set (hey, turns out it was Nobility), I no longer get the initial messages at the start about missing files or whatever.

And then it wordlessly crashed anyway when I tried to move a unit. Or sometimes half way through changing turns - as is, its finding new reasons to crash just about every turn.

I really like the idea of this mod, applying ever increasing complexity and choice which, for me, is part of what made RoM and C2C so darn intriguing but since installing it, the game has gotten ever more unstable for me. Is there anything I can do?

Edit: Am I supposed to have the SVN installed? As is, I'm seeing things in the tech tree I hadn't seen before and I don't know much about the SVN.

Hmm, you might've missed something if you are getting that invisible power civic. And yes, I did reduce the civicInfos to almost nothing. The reason for this is to get rid of no longer needed civics, such as President and Parliament. I don't know about requiring SVN, I thought you could run it without SVN. Anywho, make sure you follow the directions in the opening post, if you did and your still getting errors, tell me. Also... I had no idea of this mods instability. My own computer crashes quite often, but that is because I have a bad computer. :cringe: Maybe the errors are caused by the errors in the XML, or maybe it's your computer as well? That's all the advice I can give. I'm still relatively new at this modding thing. Good luck:)

I have some futuristic civic ideas, would you like some help?

Recently installed this and besides getting some error messages when booting up (something about conflicts or not finding leaderheads, I'm not sure) it worked fine for the most part. The default civic for Power seemed to have no entry or name or information besides enabling construction of the Field of the Cloth of Gold Gold. Nothing went wrong for some time but some turns the game just aborts without so much as a warning message. Nothing, it just ended.

I went through the files to see what might have gone wrong. I was suspicious of one before I started - CIV4CivicInfos is broken. I knew I should have been more suspicious when I noticed that the file was 6kbs compared to the original file's 566kb. I've switched back to the original file and whilst the unnamed default civic for Power is still set (hey, turns out it was Nobility), I no longer get the initial messages at the start about missing files or whatever.

And then it wordlessly crashed anyway when I tried to move a unit. Or sometimes half way through changing turns - as is, its finding new reasons to crash just about every turn.

I really like the idea of this mod, applying ever increasing complexity and choice which, for me, is part of what made RoM and C2C so darn intriguing but since installing it, the game has gotten ever more unstable for me. Is there anything I can do?

Edit: Am I supposed to have the SVN installed? As is, I'm seeing things in the tech tree I hadn't seen before and I don't know much about the SVN.

You would have done better to copy the one from the module folder and renamed it. Copy Assets/Modules/Civplayer8/Advanced Civics/CP8_CIV4CivicInfos.xml to Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4CivicInfos.xml. then edit the file and make sure that the gameinfo schema has the same name as the one in the gameinfo folder. That gets rid of all the problems with how things show up in the civics screens.

@CivPlayer8 I would set up your modmod compressed file so that all it requires is for it to be copied in. I'll provide a bit more detail soon.

Also your XML code refers to CIVIC_BANDITS even though there is no CIVIC_BANDITS eg
<CivicAttitudeChange>
<CivicType>CIVIC_BANDITS</CivicType>
<iAttitudeChange>-2</iAttitudeChange>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_ATTITUDE_DOOM</Description>
</CivicAttitudeChange>

I have some futuristic civic ideas, would you like some help?
Well of course! :D I'm always looking for new ideas, ESPECIALLY those for the future.

You would have done better to copy the one from the module folder and renamed it. Copy Assets/Modules/Civplayer8/Advanced Civics/CP8_CIV4CivicInfos.xml to Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4CivicInfos.xml. then edit the file and make sure that the gameinfo schema has the same name as the one in the gameinfo folder. That gets rid of all the problems with how things show up in the civics screens.
:goodjob:

@Dancing Hoskuld, that would be great! I'll look into it right after I finish my current project. Oops, sorry about the banditry error. I'll fix it come next update.

Well of course! :D I'm always looking for new ideas, ESPECIALLY those for the future.

@Dancing Hoskuld, that would be great! I'll look into it right after I finish my current project. Oops, sorry about the banditry error. I'll fix it come next update.

@DH,

PM me how how this modmod is going, somethings look good , some not so much . .? Tell me what you think, thx.

I've switched to using the file suggested and I'm getting the pop-up error messages that I didn't get when I used the original file in it's place.

Tag: CIVIC_PARLIAMENT in INfo class was incorrect
Current XML file is: modules\Custom Leaderheads\Van der Donck\Van_der_Donck_CIV4LeaderHeadsInfos.xml

then a similar one about CIVIC_BANDITS. This is what I had before and the game still goes on to boot up. I can still load my game, though it asks if modifiers should be recalculated (to which I click yes). Once again, Nobility is missing from Power - its there and the slot is at the bottom now, but the name and most of its effects are totally missing and now my current Power Civic is Junta. The order of civics now makes sense, at least - Militia is actually at the top of Soldiers instead of in the middle. No matter what I do though, it seems the mod just hates Nobility for me.

This doesn't change a thing about the fact its crashing without any warning, not even a complaint to say it was out of memory. The game just disappears. Until stability improves, I'm afraid I'm going to probably play without it. Kinda wish it was an option of the main game so that it might receive full support because I'm way interested in this. I've reverted to my C2C back up... and I've got nothing but warning messages before it's starting so I think something might have gone terribly wrong on my end. I think I might have to go from scratch and try the modmod again. I've been using C2C v23, to the best of my knowledge but I redownloaded it now in one file (which has definitely changed from the last time I downloaded it so I don't know). I'll see how it goes.

As an aside, I really like it, which is why I'm kinda going nuts about trying to get it to work, but I think it could maybe do with a few tweaks here and there. Particularly to new options of Military. I can't see a good reason to use Formation, say, over Tribal Warfare. A slight increase in Melee Unit building isn't worth a 15% decrease in every other kind of production for units, especially when that change creates anarchy and costs money through upkeep. So I've got a suggestion: how about the military civics give XP or unique promotions to certain kinds of units? Formation might means that all Melee Units train with Shock I, say, or only melee units begin with a little extra XP, Cavalry might grant Flanking promotions to all new trained Cavalry. Alternatively, if its possible, the civics could grant a promotion to all units of a certain type whilst active - a unique promotion to prevent it overlapping with promotions already purchased - maybe something that grants a flat bonus or increases XP gain for those units by 50%. Or perhaps a decrease in maintenance cost for units of a certain type. For example, Cavalry could represent Hordes - instead of a production bonus, the cost of supporting Cavalry could be decreased and Cavalry could obtain additional gold from pillaging.

There are three XML problems with this at the moment none really affect anything for testing purposes. One is an event the other two look like leader stuff.

This doesn't change a thing about the fact its crashing without any warning, not even a complaint to say it was out of memory. The game just disappears.

Disappearing with out warning is usually a graphics problem. Post a save from just before it happens along with the mini dump file in the Bts folder.

Kinda wish it was an option of the main game so that it might receive full support because I'm way interested in this.

It wont until the main modders agree that it is a good fit with C2C and that means we need to test it besides doing our usual stuff and fixing bugs. It all takes time.

@CivPlayer8 I am a bit worried about the fact that some of the choices have descriptions that go "over the page" and make it difficult to see what the real effect is. (see the first two pics.)

The third pic shows the problem in the power civic group. There appears to be an undefined option.

So far I can't see the point of the Military civic, and slavery just does not fit well in any civics including the old one. I really think we may need another civic to cover all the differing aspects of that.

Tomorrow I hope to get time to look at the interactions between civics and the individual civic options a bit more closely. The coinage one needs something because going from no coinage to metals made to big an impact - I went from strugling to loaded. ;)

I've switched to using the file suggested and I'm getting the pop-up error messages that I didn't get when I used the original file in it's place.
Did you try re installing it with the instructions in opening post?

The order of civics now makes sense, at least - Militia is actually at the top of Soldiers instead of in the middle. No matter what I do though, it seems the mod just hates Nobility for me.
I have no idea how to fix the order of the civics :( Actually, my modmod aimed to eliminate some civics, one of them being Nobility. Re installing might help, but I might replace current installation method with a better one, so I'd hold off on re installing.

As an aside, I really like it, which is why I'm kinda going nuts about trying to get it to work, but I think it could maybe do with a few tweaks here and there. Particularly to new options of Military. I can't see a good reason to use Formation, say, over Tribal Warfare. A slight increase in Melee Unit building isn't worth a 15% decrease in every other kind of production for units, especially when that change creates anarchy and costs money through upkeep. So I've got a suggestion: how about the military civics give XP or unique promotions to certain kinds of units? Formation might means that all Melee Units train with Shock I, say, or only melee units begin with a little extra XP, Cavalry might grant Flanking promotions to all new trained Cavalry. Alternatively, if its possible, the civics could grant a promotion to all units of a certain type whilst active - a unique promotion to prevent it overlapping with promotions already purchased - maybe something that grants a flat bonus or increases XP gain for those units by 50%. Or perhaps a decrease in maintenance cost for units of a certain type. For example, Cavalry could represent Hordes - instead of a production bonus, the cost of supporting Cavalry could be decreased and Cavalry could obtain additional gold from pillaging.

I'm glad you like it, I made it for myself and figured others might like it as well. ;) You're right about the military civics, Tribal Warfare is too OP, and Formation could use a small boost. Hehheh, whats funny is I had the same idea! I'm just finishing up where each military civic has their own unique promotion, and whats even more is my promotion for Formation is "Shock 1", and my promotion for "Cavalry" is "Flanking 1". Funny how we had the same idea. I don't thin a civic can reduce upkeep costs of a certain type.

@CivPlayer8 I am a bit worried about the fact that some of the choices have descriptions that go "over the page" and make it difficult to see what the real effect is. (see the first two pics.)
Hmm... *Sighs* Yeah, I'll just have to take away some of the effects.

The third pic shows the problem in the power civic group. There appears to be an undefined option.
I've been thinking a lot about your extract install method, and I'm going to go with it, hopefully clearing up many errors.

So far I can't see the point of the Military civic, and slavery just does not fit well in any civics including the old one. I really think we may need another civic to cover all the differing aspects of that.
Working on some "Tactics" buildings unique to Military civics, might add some flavor to them. As for the slavery issue, why no just make it an ordinance? :mischief:

The coinage one needs something because going from no coinage to metals made to big an impact - I went from strugling to loaded.
You were struggling money-wise in the prehistoric era? :dance: Metals will be nerfed, along with coinage, especially coinage!

i just wanna say this modmod has in my opinion one big flaw: unhappiness :(
the civics you made just give to much unhappuness which makes ruling large empires almost impossible (btw, im playing with the revolutions turned on, so i get a ton of rebels).

hope you intend on fixing it soon...

1) New installing method - just copy over your Caveman2Cosmos/Assets folder replacing all files. See attached, I tidied things up a little bit.

2) You don't need a MLF file in your folder if you want them loaded in the order displayed in windows.

3) Folder names are best without spaces in them. If you do and you have certain art you wil end up with pink icons in hover over because BULL (iirc) can't handle spaces in folder names.

4) To avoid complications latter you should have a unique name for all your schema files. If you don't and the C2C ones are updated then you may cause other modules and the core files to come up with XML errors because the engine uses your C2C_ schema files rather than the core ones.

5) If you are updating a value in a building or unit (and others) you don't need all the XML just the bit you change. WoC handles this. Note it wont work for setting the value back to its default. It is not recommended in core areas as it makes maintenance harder or at least more work.

6) Same goes if you are adding to a list.

7) If you are changing a list or setting a value back to default you will need to use the bForceOverwrite tag and have the full definition.

8) Game text files only include your new stuff.

To "fix" some of the current XML will require changing core files. Some can be done in a friendly way like the one for the event. the others I am not so sure of.

The strange civic is occurring because of the two civic infos files in your module area. I need to look at them in a bit more depth to see what we can do to remove the problem.

Problem - with city limits on there is now a hard coded maximum number of cities I can have and it is less that I reckon I should be able to build. I have a ctiy limit of 9 due to civics!

i just wanna say this modmod has in my opinion one big flaw: unhappiness :(
the civics you made just give to much unhappuness which makes ruling large empires almost impossible (btw, im playing with the revolutions turned on, so i get a ton of rebels).

hope you intend on fixing it soon...

Not a flaw but a design feature:mischief: May need some slight tweaking.

i just wanna say this modmod has in my opinion one big flaw: unhappiness
the civics you made just give to much unhappuness which makes ruling large empires almost impossible (btw, im playing with the revolutions turned on, so i get a ton of rebels).
Really? I did decrease happiness, but your cities should still be very happy, especially with all the resources.
1) New installing method - just copy over your Caveman2Cosmos/Assets folder replacing all files. See attached, I tidied things up a little bit. Thanks Dancing Hoskuld. :) I was actually gonna do it myself, but thanks.
Alright, I'll follow your advice for all the others.

7) If you are changing a list or setting a value back to default you will need to use the bForceOverwrite tag and have the full definition.
So if I wanted despotism to have no effect I would, in my module, create a civicinfos with bforceoverwrite activated?
To "fix" some of the current XML will require changing core files. Some can be done in a friendly way like the one for the event. the others I am not so sure of.

The strange civic is occurring because of the two civic infos files in your module area. I need to look at them in a bit more depth to see what we can do to remove the problem.
Many of the errors, including that invisible civic one, are stemming from files in the modules area. Example: Field of Cloth of Gold requires Nobility, so an invisible civic which allows Field of Gold is created.

As for that city limit, I thought they caused extra unhappiness based on city numbers, not limited the cities! I had no idea..

So if I wanted despotism to have no effect I would, in my module, create a civicinfos with bforceoverwrite activated?

No.

Many of the errors, including that invisible civic one, are stemming from files in the modules area. Example: Field of Cloth of Gold requires Nobility, so an invisible civic which allows Field of Gold is created.

This is where the use of force overwrite fixes things.

As for that city limit, I thought they caused extra unhappiness based on city numbers, not limited the cities! I had no idea..

It looks like having two civic options with city limits in them active means you can't have any more buildings at all! I still have to check this theory. :)

So, what exactly does bForceOverwrite do?
I still have to check this theory.
Alright, remember to tell me when you find out! ;)
And BTW, I think I have an upgraded version of your installation method, one with no errors. I'll check it and then release it.
Edit: Alright Dancing Hoskuld, I cannot for the LIFE OF ME figure out where this Alaric error is coming from. I've looked everywhere...:mad: I'm going to go ahead and release this new version, its perfect, except for that one error popping up.
Edit-Edit: Nevermind, I think I solved it... :mischief:

Really? I did decrease happiness, but your cities should still be very happy, especially with all the resources.


well i uploaded a pic to show you exactly what i mean my empire is about to collapse any minute now!! :lol::mischief:

Ohh!:lol: You might want to consider changing civics, heheh. It might be time for you to adopt a democracy. :mischief:

hmmm.... guess your'e right but i can't get to it because it will cause me to found more religions which would make more revolutions, guess i'm stuck for now :(

Some questions: 1. It says you only have 9 unworking citizens in that city ? Seems like it should be a lot more... 2. Why did you keep expanding in the first place? Didn't notice all your cities going bonkers? :king:
For me personally, I like this mechanic. Large empires thousands of years ago didn't last for more than a generation or two. Well... Maybe China.

Not to mention the 25 happiness he can get from buildings, look at that list of options...usually that list get that long by ignoring that kind of buildings like forever...

NOTE: it says 9 unworking citizens because thats all the population that city have, thats correct...he cant have more unhappy citizens than the pop of the city, makes total sense and works that way...

NOTE2: he is probably playing on settler or something like that where you can push your civ to that point being so hard to trigger revolutions...

NOTE3: seeing that you obviously own the continent military-wise just finish cleaning it up (razing every enemy city instead of placing more gobernors) or just wait untill your tech level allows you to control so many cities...or...go for despotism and build a freaking lot of military units on every city...900 gold per turn gives you a lot of room for that...

Ah, forgot to take a look at his population. Well, what's REALLY the problem is how that city is still managing to grow? :dubious: And at a pretty fast pace also. Yeah, increase your military with despotism. And that completely inactive city has no effect on your economy, your economy is... Wow... Do you have coinage? It's kinda OP as of now..

The city still grows because c2c have a LOT of buildings giving food, maybe to allow cities to grow larger than in vanilla...im not sure exactly why...and yea, on lower than deity there is a freaking lot of gold even on ancient ages...

The city still grows because c2c have a LOT of buildings giving food, maybe to allow cities to grow larger than in vanilla...im not sure exactly why...and yea, on lower than deity there is a freaking lot of gold even on ancient ages...
Oh yeah, cities defiantly grow larger than in vanilla CIV4. My largest city on vanilla civ was I think 25? And on some of Quill18's videos, there are size 75 cities...

@Dancing Hoskuld, can you take a look at this? I tried installing this to a regular, SVN updated, C2C file, and I'm getting an error from CIV4PlayerOptionInfos, an error that closes shuts down the boot up.

Here are a few minor points on organising your mod.

1) If possible it is better if you only have one copy of the mod in your thread. The first post should hold the current version. This way people don't get confused with what version is where, you don't get questions on older versions and you don't get to the stage that you have used up all your space on these forums.

2) since this can't be modular by its very nature you need to keep it up to date with changes on the SVN so that if one of the files you are replacing gets updated by the author you can update your version also. You are doing that well so far except that you have Vokarya's MonteCarlo change duplicated and in the wrong place

3) Try and keep the number of files to a minimum.
You have 3 game text files in your mod. If you are making no changes to the TEXT/RoM one except additions then those additions should be in one file inside your module folder and you should not be touching the RoM text file. It will save you work in the long run.
You have two Pets_ files you should need only one
You have 3 building infos files do you need all of them?

In my next post I will now try and work my way through each of the civics categories and comment. These comments will probably include comments on civics that are not yours per se, but this is your mod mod and they are in it.

Sorry this is taking so long.

I've got number 1 & 2 down, but you are right on number three, I need to take a second and go back. Also, did you experience an error using the version above? In PlayerOptionInfos? It won't load the mod for me... :( And I don't mind you taking your time. ;) I have plenty of stuff to do in the meantime.

I've got number 1 & 2 down, but you are right on number three, I need to take a second and go back. Also, did you experience an error using the version above? In PlayerOptionInfos? It won't load the mod for me... :( And I don't mind you taking your time. ;) I have plenty of stuff to do in the meantime.

I only had a problem loading the art defines and a couple of the building files because the schema files had the wrong name.

Thats odd... I didn't get those errors... :confused: Is it possible we have two different versions?

Hold on to your horses!
Im redesigning the Tech tree!

When I upload my revised Tech Tree, some of the techs are going to mention civics. It will be really easy to view the future civics that need to be added!

Example, this is a Unit Tech:
http://i.imgur.com/mjNs1.jpg

Thats odd... I didn't get those errors... :confused: Is it possible we have two different versions?

It may depend on the order I have things in my MLF. Since I am trying out and converting a number of things I did not use your MLF (Modules folder).

It may depend on the order I have things in my MLF. Since I am trying out and converting a number of things I did not use your MLF (Modules folder).
Alright, I'll try getting rid of my MLF tommorow, see if it fixes this error. Do you have ANY idea what could be causing CIV4PlayerOptionInfos to crash?

When I upload my revised Tech Tree, some of the techs are going to mention civics. It will be really easy to view the future civics that need to be added!
Alright, thanks for the headsup!

:twitch:[pissed] My infamous error had to do with the way I installed SVN on my testing version of C2C, not my modmod... Oh well, at least it won't happen again...

What can you do with this?

[B]Great Firewall
Tech: Cyberwarfare
"Google Great Firewall of China". A national firewall that only allows authorized information to be seen on the Internet.

Integrated Network Command
TECH: Integrated Network Command
All the branches of the Military, police,
national departments of homeland security, as well as foreign intelligence are linked under one secure Network.
A civic unlocked is Integrated Network Command, very costly but drastically reduces foreign Espinage. Allows Battlespace to be built.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlespace


Civilian Survillance
TECH: Machine Learning
Allows the government to create pervasive surveillance of its citizens, and collect information about them.
Allows Integrated Criminal Database, Citizen Databank, and Eagle Eye [ the supercomputer AIIRA].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Eye

Great Firewall
Tech: Cyberwarfare
"Google Great Firewall of China". A national firewall that only allows authorized information to be seen on the Internet.
Is this a wonder? It sounds like it should be.
Quote:
Integrated Network Command
Excellent! :clap:

Civilian Survillance
Hmmm... What civic should this fall under? BTW, remember we already have "AI Surveillance" under Technocracy, however I have plans to move that. *Sigh* This is why I want Ordinances, it would allow for a whole new level of strategy. :hmm:

Confirmed that if you have two civics with a limit on cities then the city limits don't work and in cases you can't build more cities.

Bah! Alright, thanks for the information.

Confirmed that if you have two civics with a limit on cities then the city limits don't work and in cases you can't build more cities.

Couldn't you have it so some civic cant be picked when you have another civic picked:confused:

Couldn't you have it so some civic cant be picked when you have another civic picked:confused:

If you want to rewrite the civic system.:mischief:

That's where I want to get eventually, but I'm only the Civic guy.. :dunno:

If you want to rewrite the civic system.:mischief:

DH i am so glad your on the "team" you make me smile at least for a while each day, you are a welcomed asset.;)

I can not get this modmod to work with the SVN version. When I load up the mod, I am greeted with a massive string of errors which mention each and every file related to the civics, and am forced to end process on Civilization 4.

Edit: Is there a reason this mod can not simply be added to the main C2C file? I have played fairly extensively with this modmod on v23, and I have encountered no significant balance issues. The large number of civic options it allows make for a more interesting game, and a more realistic government. A few tweaks here and there may prove necessary but I have found nothing glaringly wrong with this mod-mod.

When I load up the mod, I am greeted with a massive string of errors which mention each and every file related to the civics, and am forced to end process on Civilization 4.
I'm not quite sure what's causing this. However I did just download and install SVN on a brand new version of C2C. I did get quite a few errors, but they didn't have to do with my civics, they had to do with some resources. Are you sure you downloaded correctly? You just have to select your Caveman2Cosmos file, you don't have to put in in any sub folders.
Is there a reason this mod can not simply be added to the main C2C file?
Some people have talked about it, but as I understand it, the rest of the crew is really busy, and doesn't currently have time to test this.

I have played fairly extensively with this modmod on v23, and I have encountered no significant balance issues. The large number of civic options it allows make for a more interesting game, and a more realistic government. A few tweaks here and there may prove necessary but I have found nothing glaringly wrong with this mod-mod. Well I'm glad someone else is enjoying it, :)

Edit: Is there a reason this mod can not simply be added to the main C2C file?

Let's see. Hydro had a knee-jerk reaction to someone entering his territory and Dancing Hoskuld (me) thought "Oh no not more civics that do nothing!".

The question of if they go into core is a complex one especially as "core" means something different to the players and the modders.:D.

@CIVPlayer8 have you fixed the problem with city limits? IE can only have limits on one civic group? IE you have removed limits from all non-government civics?

Since I am back sooner than expected I can get back to testing and commenting on these.

I have played fairly extensively with this modmod on v23, and I have encountered no significant balance issues. The large number of civic options it allows make for a more interesting game, and a more realistic government. A few tweaks here and there may prove necessary but I have found nothing glaringly wrong with this mod-mod.

Good to know, it will make my testing easier.

Let's see. Hydro had a knee-jerk reaction to someone entering his territory
Wait, Hydro is in charge of civics? :confused: Never knew that... And I haven't yet, but I will release a new version in 5 minutes. :mischief:

Wait, Hydro is in charge of civics? :confused: Never knew that... And I haven't yet, but I will release a new version in 5 minutes. :mischief:

I made Garbage, Immigration, Education, Language and Agriculture Civics plus Anarchism, Primitive, Communalism and Irrelgion supplementive civics to the existing RoM/AND ones. Eduction, Immigration and Agriculture were based off some ideas that Afforess never got around to to however. I went in and added my take on it. Note that Garbage and Education were made before C2C was made and the others were made after.

In short before the team got so big we had to play many roles in the team. I worked with mostly planning, buildings, civics and icon/buttons. Since then I have expanded out to other areas.

Hydro's Immigration civic is what I call a non-event civic since I never see need to change from its first option. Same as your military civic.:mischief:

Hydro's Language and Agriculture civics contain examples of stuff I think should be part of the tech tree instead. However I don't think the right tags are available so "live with it".:p

Two civics that probably belong in the government area but aren't are Plutocracy and Oligarchy. They have been discussed in detail elsewhere.

.... redownloading now.

Same as your military civic. :mischief:
I know, but I think I nerfed it some.

Hydro's Language and Agriculture civics contain examples of stuff I think should be part of the tech tree instead. However I don't think the right tags are available so "live with it". :p
Hey, have you ever seen this mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=402114)? We might be able to do something with it... Edit: We WILL be able to do something with it :yeah:

Two civics that probably belong in the government area but aren't are Plutocracy and Oligarchy. They have been discussed in detail elsewhere.
Yeah, maybe we can make "Oligarchy" and "Junta" two different options.

The problem is that there are only so many types of governments but so many variations on them.

If you read Plato then you will have seen his political cycle. Despot becomes Monarchy becomes Aristocracy (land owners) becomes Oligarchy (rich) becomes Democracy (citizen) which is replaced by a despot. Never is it a plutocracy - rule by the wise.

Monarchy may be hereditary or voted on. There have been single monarchs, dual monarchs - one for internal affairs and one for external affairs (eg traditional Sparta although they also had a supreme Priestess so perhaps they were a theocracy.) I believe one place tried 4 kings for a while.

I think there was at least one native American tribe that had a War Chief and High Chief in which both had equal power but one control military and the other controlled domestic affairs.

IIRC most of the peoples around the Great Lakes had a system similar to the one you described. Then there was the Iroquois Confederacy which was a collection of these.

When dealing with civics, we need to do what is fun to play, not what is realistic, because in reality government is too complex and messy to model or categorize.

Also, I think what you have done so far with the civics is great. The original C2C ones were pretty good, but I like the direction this modmod is heading.

IIRC most of the peoples around the Great Lakes had a system similar to the one you described. Then there was the Iroquois Confederacy which was a collection of these.

When dealing with civics, we need to do what is fun to play, not what is realistic, because in reality government is too complex and messy to model or categorize.

Also, I think what you have done so far with the civics is great. The original C2C ones were pretty good, but I like the direction this modmod is heading.

So... Do we want to add each and every little political system out there, or just the main ones? And thanks for liking this modmod :) I did spend lots of time with it balancing and all. And when you say the "direction", what do you mean?

OK I am beginning to "get" these. Oligarcy is handled by the ownership civic. I am very confused by some of the options so we will need a simple version at some stage. ;)

You have two sets of the Mont_carlo stuff in the download. Only one is needed the other causes an error. I also got an unexplained graphics error when I tried to use this with v24. I will try and hunt out the problem today.

You have two sets of the Mont_carlo stuff in the download. Only one is needed the other causes an error.
Are you sure? Vokarya has two different MonteCarloCivicInfos, so I made two because that invisible civic was popping up again.
I also got an unexplained graphics error when I tried to use this with v24.
Is that with this modmod?

Is that with this modmod?

Yes, but I was trying to recover some of the stuff I was working on before I had a hard disk crash so it may have been in my stuff somewhere.

Is it possible to list what each civic does or put in screen shots or something? That'd be great :)

Is it possible to list what each civic does or put in screen shots or something? That'd be great :)

Every civic? I dunno... It's kind of a lot. I'll put in some screenshots though.

Don't worry about it mate, would just be 'nice' thats all :)
Saves installing it and going into game just to look at them and then uninstalling (if you don't like).

Should there be a Philosophy civic?
That focuses on the mentality of academic thinkers and general philosophical viewpoint of a time?

Some choices could be Mythological, Aristotelian, Geocentricism , Heliocentrism, Political Thought,

OK, working on this is back too my top priority. So far I like you government, economics and currency and think they fit well with C2C. As do your changes to the economic and education civics. Although there have been some recent changes to civics you may want to include, the split in the religion civics so Prophets and Divine Cult don't occur at the same tech for one.

I am still having a bit of trouble understanding the Politics and Soldier although I am leaning towards them being useful additions. However I just don't like the Military civic mostly because I don't see a use for it.

I am still having a bit of trouble understanding the Politics and Soldier although I am leaning towards them being useful additions. However I just don't like the Military civic mostly because I don't see a use for it.
I'm glad you like the other civics, but I agree about the Military. It's just that I didn't want to get rid of Pacifism and M.A.D., as these don't fit in well with the Soldiers category.

here is a file of a few screen dumps from these civics.

here is a file of a few screen dumps from these civics.

thanks

I'm glad you like the other civics, but I agree about the Military. It's just that I didn't want to get rid of Pacifism and M.A.D., as these don't fit in well with the Soldiers category.

This may be a case where we only need a few options in the group, just like the borders one.

Please PM me if and when you make updates so I know I am using the latest. have you added the change to the Prophets and Patrician civics?

I have tested these as far as I can and they seem good. Balance may need tweaking but that will require bulk testing by many people.

@StrategyOnly, I think this could be a candidate for replacing our civics. Feedback by others would be useful here.

CIVPlayer8, can I persuade you to come up with a "simple" set that we can use for new players? Not sure what we need. ;)

Does this set disable the bandits hideout once Banditry is left for another Civic?

Otherwise from the screen dumps this is a good alternative to the present set.

JosEPh

Does this set disable the bandits hideout once Banditry is left for another Civic?

Otherwise from the screen dumps this is a good alternative to the present set.

JosEPh

The disable function is on the building not the civic. The message is displayed on the civic and depends on what civic you currently have. So moving form banditry to a civic which is not valid for the bandits hideout should show th message but if you are going to another that allows it then there will be no message.

I know I haven't released an update in awhile, and I apologize. Other things have been on my mind. Anywho, I'll release a new version tommorow, covering updates, more content, etc. Yeah, a simple set is fine by me! :D But what are your thoughts on this? Should I just simplify the civics? Or remove the currency/military/politics civic categories? And when you say simple, do you mean Vanilla Civ4 simple?

And when you say simple, do you mean Vanilla Civ4 simple?

Ideally yes:mischief: but they would need to work still with C2C. Mostly simple in that they only effect one or maybe two things. I have not thought much about it. Just something to ease new players who seem to be overwhelmed about C2C's complexity.

here is a file of a few screen dumps from these civics.

I know this sounds trivial but can we get unique button/icons made for the new civics?

I will give more feedback as a look more closely at them. Bu that's the first thing that comes to mind when looking at them.

EDIT: Oligarchy, Meritocracy and Plutocracy should be added to the types of government. Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11524095&postcount=498) is the thread about them we discussed before.

EDIT2: As I have said before, I don't like the new Military Civics and think that the Soldier Civics should be in the Military civic category and the Soldier category be thrown out along with the new Military techs. Thus ...

Military
- Banditry
- Militia
- Conscription
- Vassalage
- Mercenaries
- Standing Army
- Volunteer Army
- Pacifism
- M.A.D.
- Unmanned Warfare
- Cloning
- Time Drafting

EDIT3: What happened to Liberal under Society?

I know this sounds trivial but can we get unique button/icons made for the new civics?

I will give more feedback as a look more closely at them. Bu that's the first thing that comes to mind when looking at them.

EDIT: Oligarchy, Meritocracy and Plutocracy should be added to the types of government. Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11524095&postcount=498) is the thread about them we discussed before.

EDIT2: As I have said before, I don't like the new Military Civics and think that the Soldier Civics should be in the Military civic category and the Soldier category be thrown out along with the new Military techs. Thus ...

Military
- Banditry
- Militia
- Conscription
- Vassalage
- Mercenaries
- Standing Army
- Volunteer Army
- Pacifism
- M.A.D.
- Unmanned Warfare
- Cloning
- Time Drafting

EDIT3: What happened to Liberal under Society?

Oligarchy is already in there it is just split into the differing forms of wealth and in a different civic.

I know this sounds trivial but can we get unique button/icons made for the new civics?
I don't know how to make these, someone else will have to.
EDIT: Oligarchy, Meritocracy and Plutocracy should be added to the types of government. Here is the thread about them we discussed before.
Sure, I'll look into it. :)
EDIT2: As I have said before, I don't like the new Military Civics and think that the Soldier Civics should be in the Military civic category and the Soldier category be thrown out along with the new Military techs. Thus ...

Military
- Banditry
- Militia
- Conscription
- Vassalage
- Mercenaries
- Standing Army
- Volunteer Army
- Pacifism
- M.A.D.
- Unmanned Warfare
- Cloning
- Time Drafting

EDIT3: What happened to Liberal under Society?
Yeah... that sounds alright by me. We can scrap the military civics. And Liberal was renamed to Egalitarian, because "Liberalism" is a Political Civic.

When Team Azures new mod mod come out do you think this will be compatible with them?

@Civplayer8, when can we expect the completion of goals five and six?

When Team Azures new mod mod come out do you think this will be compatible with them?
Umm, probably not, as we both have our own different sets of civics. But seeing as I'll most likely download their modmod, I'll make another version that is compatible. ;)

@Civplayer8, when can we expect the completion of goals five and six?
Most likely today.

Edit: @Dancing Hoskuld
Regarding your simple civics, should we remove some civic categories? And I'll still have to include features such as Revolution and :science:, so they won't be "Vanilla Simple". :)

Edit: @Dancing Hoskuld
Regarding your simple civics, should we remove some civic categories? And I'll still have to include features such as Revolution and :science:, so they won't be "Vanilla Simple". :)

I would expect so. I would suggest that the garbage and border civics be removed from a simple version for a start.

In a simple model each category would relate to one aspect of the game only or mainly. So Currency would mainly affect money, Economics trade and so on.

I would expect so. I would suggest that the garbage and border civics be removed from a simple version for a start.
Any others that should be removed?

Any others that should be removed?

Please don't remove them, it makes the game more like running a real civilization.:cry:

Any others that should be removed?

Sorry, I have been concentrating on getting Extra Diplomacy working and not concentrating on the civics at all. I will take a break and come up with some ideas.

Please don't remove them, it makes the game more like running a real civilization.:cry:

They will still be in the normal/advanced civics. We are discussing simple civics for newcomers to c2c who don't want to be over whelmed to stat with.

I disagree with disabling the civic already in the C2C core. Garbage, Immigration, etc should stay.

They are very important for game balance.

In short the ones I made I would like to make sure they stay ...

- Agriculture
- Education
- Garbage
- Immigration
- Language

@Dancing Hoskuld, I was taking a look at your "Screen Dump" on the other page, and I saw some features that I didn't put in, such as +20 one time instability, and -3% national stability. What are these?
Edit:
I disagree with disabling the civic already in the C2C core. Garbage, Open Boarders, etc should stay.
We're talking about making a "Simple Civic" set, for newcomers to easier take in this mod :)

@Dancing Hoskuld, I was taking a look at your "Screen Dump" on the other page, and I saw some features that I didn't put in, such as +20 one time instability, and -3% national stability. What are these?


They are to do with rev but must be defined in the civics somewhere. Which civic in particular?

We're talking about making a "Simple Civic" set, for newcomers to easier take in this mod :)

I know however Garbage and Agriculture give the main balance to health in early game. This helped them from growing way too fast. Which was a problem before.

Education and Language on the other hand help boost to science rate. If you remove them then prehistoric era will be extremely slow and you will never get out of there.

In short if you have a "Simple Civic Set" then you will have to re-balance everything. Its hard enough to balance things with the optional setting we have now. Adding more optional setting is just going to make things worse.

I suspect taking out those civics will give you really big cities way too early that cannot advance because their science rate is too low which in turn will make them even more unhealthy than they are from over population.

I suspect taking out those civics will give you really big cities way too early that cannot advance because their science rate is too low which in turn will make them even more unhealthy than they are from over population.

I already get that in every game i have played in v 24 already. Even in Ancient Era i have to keep my slider to 0 and all my cities have to be on Lesser Wealth or i am in big trouble ALREADY. And that is only with 6 cities before i get Bronze . . . :sad:

They are to do with rev but must be defined in the civics somewhere. Which civic in particular?
It's all the civics that affect Revolution, do you have some option turned on?

Only Rev on would affect this. Need to do a Windows search on the c2c folder using one of the civic names and see if there are other files with those definitions in them. There probably is otherwise where would the affects come from.

Only Rev on would affect this. Need to do a Windows search on the c2c folder using one of the civic names and see if there are other files with those definitions in them. There probably is otherwise where would the affects come from.
Alright. Do you know if there's a way for civics to add :hammers:/:culture: to buildings? I'm working on a complete overhaul of Welfare civics, and this would make it more detailed.

Edit: Also, for anyone to comment on, I'm going to add Integrated Network Command, Virtual Society, Genetic Caste, and Knowledge Download for civics. Any thoughts?

Also, new version released: Updated Welfare civics.

Edit: Also, for anyone to comment on, I'm going to add Integrated Network Command, Virtual Society, Genetic Caste, and Knowledge Download for civics. Any thoughts?

What categories do you intend to add these to?

What categories do you intend to add these to?

Integrated Network Command will go to Military, Knowledge Download will go to Education, and the other two will go in society. :)

As a libertarian leaning and very philosophical person I find the less common ideology but growing in number like empowerment are highly underrepresented.

my thought is empowerment comes in the early transhuman era and does:
+10% science, +5% culture, +25% war unhappiness, -5% productivity, Happiness with freer civics and rebelliousness with authoritarian civics; As well as -10% espionage and +10% great people birth rate...or something to that effect to show more emphasis on growth and understanding rather than labor and deceit.:please::help:

The correct install instructions are buried in the text of the initial post. There is a later post from DH with a bold title "To install".

As DH is a member of the C2C pantheon, many members might do whatever DH tells us to do. :D. And some members not read everything, since we're really really in a hurry to check this modmod out.

I suggest the install instructions in the first post be given a bold preceeding sentence, and if DH could update his post it would be very helpful.

Of course this would never happen to me :blush:; I always read instructions before assembling things. :rolleyes: I'm just trying to be helpful to others......

Warning before adding this to a current game
If you're thinking about adding this modmod to a current game, be ready for the financial hit before Mining is discovered. The beginning "No Currency" Civic for Currency has -30% :gold: in all cities. Once you've researched Mining you can select Metals for -10% :gold:.

I have a question, you need the SVN to install the mod?

I have a question, you need the SVN to install the mod?

No. You only need the SVN if you want to keep up with updates and new functionality as it is added, rather than wait for the next full release (which typically is every couple of months)

Warning before adding this to a current game
If you're thinking about adding this modmod to a current game, be ready for the financial hit before Mining is discovered. The beginning "No Currency" Civic for Currency has -30% :gold: in all cities. Once you've researched Mining you can select Metals for -10% :gold:.

Sounds like good input, what else, DONT you like or suggest then, that would BALANCE civics out more, "In YOUR Opinion."

Sounds like good input, what else, DONT you like or suggest then, that would BALANCE civics out more, "In YOUR Opinion."

I'm not sure he's saying he doesn't like it (or indeed, offering any value judgement) - just warning people that it is the case.

I think that after v25 is released we should move this into c2C core. Yes there are a few things that need tweaking but putting it out there at the start of the cycle for v26 would give us plenty of time to bed it down for the final v26 release.

I think that after v25 is released we should move this into c2C core. Yes there are a few things that need tweaking but putting it out there at the start of the cycle for v26 would give us plenty of time to bed it down for the final v26 release.

Question for ya then, who is going to do it, and will it just replace what "we" already have, or is this an expansion, of the current civics, i really haven't even looked at any of this yet. sorry.

Question for ya then, who is going to do it, and will it just replace what "we" already have, or is this an expansion, of the current civics, i really haven't even looked at any of this yet. sorry.

It is a replacement and expansion. It expands some and adds new ones where the current group has more than one "meaning" making the aim of the group of civics easier to figure out. There is one I am still confused about but I am about two or three in our current set anyway.

It is a replacement and expansion. It expands some and adds new ones where the current group has more than one "meaning" making the aim of the group of civics easier to figure out. There is one I am still confused about but I am about two or three in our current set anyway.

So then its a more or less "complete overall?"

So then its a more or less "complete overall?"

It's complete, but I still release updates from time to time.

my idea seemed to go unnoticed...:cry::sad::hmm:

Also, how do you get the xml to work with SVN, I tried putting the files in twice but had to delete them because tortoise did not recognize them...:help:

Not IN the SVN, WITH the SVN. You extract the files to your working copy of C2C, not the SVN copy.

Cheers

Sorry for double posting but I got an issue straight away. Well, I think I do.
I start with 1:mad: guy in my city and a cost of 1:gold:. Does anyone else do this? Oh, and this is with a Charismatic Leader with +1:) in all cities.
I'm thinking this is not really meant to be. Minus 1 gold per turn when one has 0 gold is hard. And not being able to even use 1 plot from start around the city is even worse.

If no one else gets this then I suppose it's some setting I've changed myself that does it, though I can't think of one.
I do play on Deity always, not sure if anyone else has tried that with these civics.

Cheers

Edit: Adding 1:) in the handicap info solved both issues.

It is a replacement and expansion. It expands some and adds new ones where the current group has more than one "meaning" making the aim of the group of civics easier to figure out. There is one I am still confused about but I am about two or three in our current set anyway.

Does any of the NEW stuff, have to have C++ or python redone, because of the changes or need to be changes?

Does any of the NEW stuff, have to have C++ or python redone, because of the changes or need to be changes?

No, I don't believe so. At the most it might expose existing deficiencees with some AI routines, but that's worst case, and no different from adding new units, buildings or traits really.

No. You only need the SVN if you want to keep up with updates and new functionality as it is added, rather than wait for the next full release (which typically is every couple of months)

Thanks. I'm having some trouble installing this mod mod. I'm still new in adding mods to games, C2C is my first. How do I add the mod mod to C2C?

Thanks. I'm having some trouble installing this mod mod. I'm still new in adding mods to games, C2C is my first. How do I add the mod mod to C2C?

In the first post under the title "Compatible with SVN" are instructions. Not the most obvious place to put the install instructions.

my thought is empowerment comes in the early transhuman era and does:
+10% science, +5% culture, +25% war unhappiness, -5% productivity, Happiness with freer civics and rebelliousness with authoritarian civics; As well as -10% espionage and +10% great people birth rate...or something to that effect to show more emphasis on growth and understanding rather than labor and deceit.:please::help:
This would be a society civic? Maybe... I'll think about it. It doesn't seem that much different than Liberalism.
I suggest the install instructions in the first post be given a bold preceeding sentence
Will do!
If you're thinking about adding this modmod to a current game, be ready for the financial hit before Mining is discovered. The beginning "No Currency" Civic for Currency has -30% :gold: in all cities. Once you've researched Mining you can select Metals for -10% :gold:.
Yes :) Because no country should be rich from the Prehistoric era.
I think that after v25 is released we should move this into c2C core.
:eek:Sounds great!:D
In the first post under the title "Compatible with SVN" are instructions. Not the most obvious place to put the install instructions.
:mischief:

@Civplayer8

I'll be honest, I haven't downloaded this yet but I very much plan too. I love having more depth in the civic options. I'm working on a scenario and I am definitely going to be using these. I love that you added Confederacy so I didn't have to go through the hassle.

Question. Is there any civic having to do with a city-state style of government. For example the Greek city-states?

@RtS23, I don't believe so.

Question. Is there any civic having to do with a city-state style of government. For example the Greek city-states?
Closest thing I have is Confederacy ;)

Idea:
In this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=441420&highlight=Ordinance), in Post # 10 & 13 & 18 you can see an idea started by Hydromancerx, and continued upon by rightfuture. This idea is the ordinance screen. It would act similar to the civics screen, with one checking off the ordinances they would like. However, you may check off as much of these as you would like, no limit. For example, in the "Ordinance Category: Environment", you can check off "Ordinance: Air Pollution Laws". This would decrease air pollution from factories, but decrease production a bit. There are several upsides to this screen.
Pro's:
-We can get rid of the Ordinance National Wonders and replace it with something more fluid
-We don't have to create senseless civics (Language:p)
-You'll be able to further model your Civilization to your image
-Things like "We accept human cloning", "Slavery", and the soon-to-come "Housing Civic category" could be thrown in here

I hope someone can take this seriously, and possibly even code this into the game. What do you guys think? :)

Not IN the SVN, WITH the SVN. You extract the files to your working copy of C2C, not the SVN copy.

Cheers

Is there not a way to get the advanced civics and the viewports to work on the same copy?

@CivPlayer8 I would prefer it not to be called "ordinance" but it would be a good place for special treaties like "The Geneva Convention on Warfare".

Is there not a way to get the advanced civics and the viewports to work on the same copy?

:confused:Yes. You always have a working copy and that is the one you play. The SVN copy is the one you update whenever and copy across to your working version. While this modmod is not in c2c you will need to apply it every time you copy the SVN to your working copy.

Sounds like good input, what else, DONT you like or suggest then, that would BALANCE civics out more, "In YOUR Opinion."

Actually I LOVE THIS MODMOD!!!! My reservation was because I played a game up until 10,000 BC using SVN 3164 plus this modmod, and 13 of the 14 AI were bankrupt by then, with massive armies that were constantly disbanded. Koshling has done some fantastic work reducing this problem so I was not sure if this modmod was causing the problem. However I see from a Koshling post in the SVN thread that there was a bug calculating the garrison value of promoted units, and the fix was pushed to SVN 3165. So hopefully the game I started yesterday using SVN 3183 (C2C_Terra Gigantic, Diety, Snail) should produce better results.

Regarding the original comment, I would recommend that this modmod is not added to games in progress betweeen Tribalism and Mining. Also, if you add this modmod to a current game after mining there will be a painfully long revolt while you catch up in the new Civics categories, so pick a GA to add the modmod. Also note that you may be adding the modmod at a time good for your empire, but it could crush an AI somewhere. Ideally you could add this modmod before anyone has discovered Ritualism, which allows the conversion to Matriarchy or Patriarchy, typically the first new Civic.

My vote is for this modmod to be added to the core SVN and the game. It adds value, IMHO.

-We don't have to create senseless civics (Language:p)


The main reason Language was made into a civic in the core game was for the diplomatic effects.

Is there an easy way to uninstall this mod mod. I haven't actually try it yet but I want to. But if I don't like it will i be able to uninstall it easily?

Make a copy of your C2C folder before installing.

Cheers

Make a copy of your C2C folder before installing.

Cheers

Thanks. Dont know why i didnt think of that

@CIVPlayer8: Sorry about the last post I made. It reverted itself so was probably some setting I was using.

I've tried a bit with these Advanced Civics and so far I'm liking what I see.
The AI might not though, they keep switching too often I fear, thus slowing down in growth and research too often and too long.
How did you set up the AI Value, and did you do it in concert and coordination with someone working with the AI?

Cheers

I've tried a bit with these Advanced Civics and so far I'm liking what I see.
The AI might not though, they keep switching too often I fear, thus slowing down in growth and research too often and too long.
How did you set up the AI Value, and did you do it in concert and coordination with someone working with the AI?

Cheers

@Koshling/AIAndy/DH:

Are "we" going to go through this again like the old civics, if we move them???

@Koshling/AIAndy/DH:

Are "we" going to go through this again like the old civics, if we move them???

Dunno. We AI code is totally generic, so new civics shouldn't effect it in principal. However, it does not cope very well with interactions between civic categories where a choice in one category gas strong interactions with changes in another category, which is independently a good choice. It may be that this is more prevalent with the extra civics.

Whatever the case, if it causes problems, I'll do some more work on the civic AI to address them, provided people can provide decent evidence and save games wheer the AI reproducibly makes the bad or over-frequent switches.

Note that the BBAI log has quite a lot of information relating to why the AI is making the choices it does now, so the first step is to make sure you have that turned on and provide logs with examples.

I probably won't work on this however, until it's folded into the main mod and causing issues there.

@Koshling/AIAndy/DH:

Are "we" going to go through this again like the old civics, if we move them???
It is far too late in the cycle to move them. Do it at the beginning of next cycle then the AI has a full cycle to deal with the changes.

It is far too late in the cycle to move them. Do it at the beginning of next cycle then the AI has a full cycle to deal with the changes.

My recommendation was for this to move into core after v25 was released. :D

My recommendation was for this to move into core after v25 was released. :D

I agree with this, that way we'll have something to focus on balancing for V26.

@CIVPlayer8, again:
The tag <iInflation/> breaks two of your Government Civics, Confederacy and People's Republic. You can just delete the line to fix it.

Cheers

The AI might not though, they keep switching too often I fear, thus slowing down in growth and research too often and too long.
How did you set up the AI Value, and did you do it in concert and coordination with someone working with the AI?
Yeah, I found the same issue in my games. I didn't set up any AI value. I thought about it, but discarded the idea.
@CIVPlayer8, again:
The tag <iInflation/> breaks two of your Government Civics, Confederacy and People's Republic. You can just delete the line to fix it.
Alright, will do.

@CIVPlayer8
For the Government group of civics, the city limit for the Republic (available at Democracy) seems low at 10. It's the same level as Despotism (available at Bronze Working), and 2 below Monarchy (available at Monarchy). Is this a typo?

Yeah, I found the same issue in my games. I didn't set up any AI value. I thought about it, but discarded the idea.

Alright, will do.

Good. Don't even think about setting AIWeight's. They really don't work well because all civics (prettyy much) are situational, and the AIWeights just screw with the AI's attempts to match civic choices to it's current situation.

Good. Don't even think about setting AIWeight's. They really don't work well because all civics (prettyy much) are situational, and the AIWeights just screw with the AI's attempts to match civic choices to it's current situation.
Good to know :) BTW everyone, I'm leaving for vacation and won't be back until next Sunday, without any computer.
@CIVPlayer8
For the Government group of civics, the city limit for the Republic (available at Democracy) seems low at 10. It's the same level as Despotism (available at Bronze Working), and 2 below Monarchy (available at Monarchy). Is this a typo?
I fixed this in the newest version. Oh yeah, New Version released, with a new civic, "Integrated Network Command". :D Take care guys. See you in a week.

@CIVPlayer8
For the Government group of civics, the city limit for the Republic (available at Democracy) seems low at 10.

I always wondered why the city limit is not scaled to map size. Seems logical that a huge map is allowed to build more cities than on a small map doesn't it?

I always wondered why the city limit is not scaled to map size. Seems logical that a huge map is allowed to build more cities than on a small map doesn't it?

Strongy agree. One impact is that on Gigantic maps you can pretty much expand in some direction until the late Ancient era, and the AI also has room to expand.