Never underestimate the power of money. With this strategy it is possible to invade a nation without firing a shot, to double/triple/quadruple your treasury and bring mighty nations to their knees all while profitting in every category. How? By starting wars, but not with alliances, and not with bribes, but with loans of gold! It is tricky (and you need patience), but done properly, extremely effective.

I will explain how to accomplish this by giving you a history of my nation, Nisusia. Also understand that I'm playing on a 256xy map with 31 nations and considerably hindered tech-progress (BIG Game).

My initial wealth base was gained when I discovered the western hemishpere (about 15 nations). I, in fact, only "discovered" 1, but by trading contacts back and forth I ended up with all, and I then sold those contacts, along with maps and a few new technologies, to nations that would pay the highest price for them. This is how I accumulated a large treasury in a short amount of time, by frugally trading with the right nations to get the best possible deal for my nation.

Now I had the money to covertly start a war. So I looked around for 2 countries with bad relations (at the time, the world was at peace), found... Rome and France. This was a golden opportunity, as the two shared a border rich in resources. They both had embargo's against each other and my advisor said that they would probably allow a military alliance against each other, but the big thing is, Rome is a militaristic civ, France is not, Perfect! :evil: The stage was set.

I went to Rome, gave 'em a big loan which brought all of their per turn surplus into my hands. They now have a massive treasury. What do they do with it? Why, being a militaristic civ, and with bad relations with France, they rush-build their armies. So the armies are completed, now they have to pay extra gold per turn for those units, but they can't of course, because I have their surplus! So what do they do, decrease spending? No, they attack France's resource rich cities! Now I have them by the balls!

Now France is in bad shape, up against a much mightier opponent. They need to rush-build their armies but with what money? Mine, which I have so graciously loaned to them. I am funding both sides of the war :evil:

Now it becomes an even fight, with those resource-rich cities being taken back and forth, gained and lost, the whole area decimated by war. The cities are turned to rubble, and the resources are lost. Lo and behold, here comes a team of Nisusian settlers! Protected by a small but technologically-superior force, as while the two nations have been pouring their efforts into the war machine and cutting back on research and city improvements, I have far surpassed them by using the surplus income! The settlers (along with a workforce), establish cities and take the resources.

So by funding the attacker first and then the defender, I have decimated both, and have gained their resources, which I will trade back to them, once the loan expires ;) .

Of course, both these nations made Alliances, which spawned more alliances, and now most of the world is at war; a great opportunity for me to further increase my power grab. I have implemented this system all over the world, and have gained enormously in many ways, monetarily, scientifically, militaristically, etc. This system empowers you more than the possesion of nukes, as you expand your nation in every way while IMPROVING your reputation and foreign relations. Nisusia went from a mediocre nation to the world's #1 superpower by doing this.

There are many benefits and different uses and variations of the system, I have thrown nations into anarchy, forced governments to change from democracy so that I could assimilate their near-by city into my nation, I'll describe how in a later post perhaps. For now, hope this will suffice in showing you how to peacefully invade the world and rule the world behind the scenes, Illuminati-style!. [pimp]

I have definitely never seen a thread anything like this. What kind of loans are you talking about? 800 gold for 50gpt? More? Less? Also, what level are you playing on and what time period are you in? The AI rarely has any gpt to spare during the Ancient or Middle Ages, but in the Industrial Age they finally start to pay. I am quite intrigued.

Yes, the loan consists of a lump sum in exchange for gold-per-turn (surplus). Loan interest rates go anywhere from 2.9% to 10%, though I am unsure as to what affects these rates (still trying to figure it out). Yes, it is in the early industrial age with difficulty at regent (or medium you could say).

So say Rome is making a surplus of 15 gpt, and the interest rate (or currency exchange is maybe what it reflects) is 5%. So I loan them 315 gold (15 gpt x 20 turns + 5% interest). They build their army or improvements and suddenly they have extra maintenance costs but that 15gpt that would cover the costs is instead coming to me.

If you do this to enough nations you create a system where a nation's progress and competitiveness is determined by it's ability to obtain a loan from you. It's with this power that you hold a throttle on a nation's prosperity over another, and this is how you can begin and control wars and economies.

Right, I understand the concept, but I was curious about the specifics. I'll be sure to try it out in my next solo game.

indeed this sounds very interesting!

Are you playing on an early patch, perhaps? Somewhere around the second patch, the game was changed so the AIs wouldn't pay out more gold per turn than they had on hand. It was known back then that you could cripple them by sucking away all their income. But it's pretty much impossible to do anything like this in a current version of the game.

No, I have the latest version of the game. Please read the article carefully, you cripple the civ by empowering it to rush-build it's armies, therefore giving them the confidence to start war, and then you turn around and fund their rival civ.

Remember too, that if one side is winning, you are losing. Always be sure that the two warring nations are as close to balanced as possible. You should try your best to control tech-advantages and number of units via trade. There are many ways to do this. Like granting them lump sums of gold, or technology, or if not possible, look to see where they are getting their resources from and ask for trade embargo's, effectively disallowing that civ to build the resource-dependent unit.

Do everything you can to (covertly) even the battlefield.

I agree that you have a point here that others might have missed. However I see several drawbacks of this strategy.
- How can you be sure that either side will rush units and start a war with the opponent? (OK your case was special but such opportunities would not be available all the time). Still you could target nations already in war but then it’s accidental not something that you trigger.
- You will see than on higher level the AI would pay minimal interest or would even pay you less. (on emperor and deity you get 17-19gpt for a 400 lump payment)
- The AI does raze but not always. Again it’s an accident that he razes a city not something that you plan to do.
- One, or both of the AI could declare war to you if they pay you too much gpt and thus free themselves of such obligations. This does not happen always and may be related to difficulty but I saw it happening a lot of times. Even the peaceful and polite Indians declared war when they couldn’t handle the 300 gpt they were paying to me.
Still it may be a nice tip for some.
Cheers,

It boils down to this: Keep the AIs at war, take all their money, and you'll find yourself in the lead. We've known this for quite a long time. :) This is just a little trick to help maintain that state. Could be helpful, yes, but I'd hardly call it "The most effective world-dominating strategy".

I think the real benifit of this strat is draining the spare GPT to stop tech research.

We all know that the AI will *always* balance it's budget on a turn-by-turn basis, so taking 15gpt for 330 gold is good as they will not be able to spend it on research.

However, I refuse to believe that a sum as small as 330 gold will make any AI rush offensive units and go to war. It's just too far fetched.

I'm afraid I don't notice anywhere telling us what level this is being played on. What level is it? Even better, a saved game post would be nice.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Azik Blaze
So say Rome is making a surplus of 15 gpt, and the interest rate (or currency exchange is maybe what it reflects) is 5%. So I loan them 315 gold (15 gpt x 20 turns + 5% interest).

In your example you are paying out more than you will recover, in essence giving a negative interest rate (man, I'd like to borrow some $$ from you!! I'll even pay it all back right away. ;) ). Is this deliberate (since your goal is not to make money but take their surplus away) or is this a mistaken example?

Yeah Azik, why are you paying the interest? If you want them to pay 15gpt, you should be giving them 286. (20*15)/1.05=285.7

Yes, Speaker/ParkRanger, you're right. That was a posting-gaff of mine, sorry... While you can make money from the interest, the main power of this part of the strategy comes from the depletion of the AI's gpt.

Sirp - I always play with custom rules, I like to have all the rules even, no advantages to me or the AI... I am in the process of gathering more detailed information (like screenshots and game-posts) to show you guys.

Anarres - Hindering the research is a large benefit of the strategy, but there are many others just as good... I was only using the 300 gold figure as an example, the actual loan I gave to Rome was in the thousands, and being an aggressive, militaristic civ with bad relations with a neighbour, they used it to build-up arms.

T-Hawk - It seems you're confusing the word 'dominate' with the word 'conquer'. In order to dominate, there needs to be other nations to dominate!! This strategy is the most effective at dominating your rivals because it increases your power while depleting theirs and with MINIMAL RISK. Of course you can't CONQUER the world with bank loans, but this strategy can soften it up if that is your ultimate goal. This is why I say this system can be more devastating to a rival than out-right nuking it, as other nations will rally behind your bombed victim and fight you.

and finally...

Yndy - Yes, it's accidental that the AI razes the cities, but it's done so because the two sides are even (or evenly-funded by you :evil: ). Since neither side has a clear advantage, cities are constantly won and lost (a-la Stalingrad in WWII) eventually reducing their populations to zero, turning them to rubble and freeing up all that real-estate (which sometimes includes resources), allowing you to settle the area if you so desire. You can effectively invade a country without invading :crazyeye: ... Through-out my experience with this method (and it's been extensive) I have had no problems with the AI turning on me. It would seem as though the AI is pre-occupied with it's arch-nemesis than to attack it's funder, as trading does improve your reputation with them.

As stated, I will go into even further detail about this method, and I how I have used it, in the future. For now I hope this clears my original article up for ya's. I'll say right now that I believe there are many other area's for this system to control, many ways to empower your nation than the few I will pointing out. Hopefully with more brains working on this we can come up with more clever schemes. :)

Well, I guess we are all waiting for you to go into further detail, so we can understand...

I think the main point that Azik Blaze wants to show is getting the AI to fight each other with wars of attrition. By having the AI in constant warfare, they will switch to communism or monarchy, killing it's research rate. Even if they stay in Republic or democracy, war weariness will kick in and the AI will be forced to hire alot of entertainers. In communism, the AI will pop-rush it's cities to near-death and more 'auto-razes' will happen. Many times when an AI is wiped out of offensive units it will send a defender in to pillage tiles. If the opponent has run out of offensive units also, it can't attack that pillager, so soon the AI is wiped out of terrain improvements which will also destroy it's economy. Giving the AI techs that allow strong defenders (gunpowder, nationalism, replaceable parts, etc.) will help keep the AI involved in very slow progressing wars.

Well, when some one says I always play "custom rules" you know you are not in Kansas any more Dorothy.

The better players have probably controlled the game by the time this strat produces any real fruit and sounds more like piddling around. Any of the other side effects of playing the game like "auto-razing", civs being in war and killing AI research rates can be accomplished in much more forth right manners. If you have left the AI with the ability to pay you GPT then you have not been applying enough pressure on them. But, if that's the case then you can resort to this.

[edit:spelling]

Having read :
- this thread,
- your other thread in the Tips section from 2 days ago where you actually ask for help from people on what "interest" you can get from loans to AIs,
- plus the thread in RBciv (wrong place for a big mouth buddy!), I am flabbergasted at your condescending, arrogant tone of voice : you really do believe you are such a genius that has found the ultimate strategy to win at Civ3 !
:lol:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
:lol:
At least I had a good laugh thanks to you... ;)

I always play with custom rules, I like to have all the rules even, no advantages to me or the AI...

umm...ok, this essentially means a level below Regent. When you have a strategy that works well on Deity (or maybe Emperor), then let us know. Many players here, including myself, could beat the level you describe with our hands tied behind our backs.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Skyfish
Having read :
- this thread,
- your other thread in the Tips section from 2 days ago where you actually ask for help from people on what "interest" you can get from loans to AIs,
- plus the thread in RBciv (wrong place for a big mouth buddy!), I am flabbergasted at your condescending, arrogant tone of voice : you really do believe you are such a genius that has found the ultimate strategy to win at Civ3 !
:lol:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
:lol:
At least I had a good laugh thanks to you... ;)

Let's get one thing straight pal: I do not come here to hype myself up, nor do I come here to get flamed. I started the thread because I wanted to help and get more people experimenting with these unconventional tactics.

You people are criticising even before you've tried the strategy for yourselves. So I will not discuss this any further until I get some intelligent and constructive feedback from people who have tried it.

Originally posted by Azik Blaze
Never underestimate the power of money. . . . For now, hope this will suffice in showing you how to peacefully invade the world and rule the world behind the scenes, Illuminati-style!. [pimp]

There is no doubt that manipulating the international gold market, along with deft diplomatic shenanigans to keep your rivals at each other's throats, is a good idea. More often, direct manipulation and control of the resource markets would have a stronger effect. Other times a substantial gift might have the desired result. Or a renegotiated peace treaty requiring tribute.

I couldn't see using the strategy exactly like that very often, but it is just one more tool in the tool chest. :goodjob:

Here's an example of contracting a quick loan from a friendly ally at the onset of war.
http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/1860ad-GreekLoan2.jpg (http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/1838ad.htm)
http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/1838ad.htm

i would call this strat an opportunistic tactic - cause u need a large treasury for it to work. the basic concept is simple and well known but the way he gone about doing it is pretty clever if u ask me. gotta hand it to azik for daring to think different. oh and i think the loan rates are affected by your rep with that civ.

So I smell a DL or am I too suspicious? :hmm:

Azik, at the very least you've been providing some confusing information about your scheme.

on December 21 you said... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=668242#post668242 )

In that post you stated

"and a chunk of my income is made by loaning out gold to rich rivals"

which now turns out not to be the case. Other posts you've made certainly led people to believe that you were making a profit on the deals. In fact it appears you're actually enriching your rivals by paying them interest.
You'd have done yourself and everyone else a favor by clearly stating initially how your "strategy" words and that you're playing modded rules.
You haven't discovered "the most effective world-dominating strategy" - not even close. As Zachriel politely puts it, you've found "just one more tool in the tool chest".

Originally posted by anarres
So I smell a DL or am I too suspicious? :hmm: DL???

edit: never mind, I got it :lol:

I am not sure why people are ripping on Azik so much. He has come up with an intersting stratagy. I have not yet tried it, so I do not know if it would work, but I do intend on giving it a shot. It might be a waste of time an money, but I won't know until I try it. It seems to me that keeping two rivals preoccupied with wiping each other off the face of the planet is a good idea.

Also; I might not me that smart, so what is a "DL?"

Interesting strat, Azik!
The discussion about loan strategy seems to continue on this board, so...
And, yeah, people ripping on Azik or his strategy may open another thread (er, not for ripping).
I'm not so sure if this loan thing is something like an exploit but as you need tons of money to establish your bank, by now me thinks it's ok.
I've started a (stand.pangea,Iroquois,vanilla) monarch game. My opening sequence was a pity for some reasons. Therefor I tried to do this loan-thing:
And here are the rates, as requested:
I've got no rep hit, attitudes differ from furious to polite, no wars anywhere at the moment.
Attitudes don't seem to have a very large effect. I went to war with India, turning them from polite to furious. Even now they sign 5gpt-90g or 10gpt-180g (my best rate so far). Worst rate: Polite/cautious Aztecs sign 5gpt-98g or 10gpt-195g). I was very surprised by some civs signing up several deals at once like 5gpt-<100g during negotions but no single 10gpt-<200g deal. I thought that if their gpt limit was -let's say- 50g, I could grab this 50gpt by one deal. But I had to sign several (in example's case:10) 5gpt-deals untill I reached their limit.
The only change of gpt rate I saw so far: China(furious) signed 5gpt-93g initially, now they only need 92g with same attitude (China ROP-raped).
Overall, my problem is that I can't take advantage of wars (there aren't any now) and I have no idea how to get them into war. Signing MPPs and declaring war on very strong Aztecs (worst rate) would be too dangerous. Being everybody's banker, I don't sign MPPs but the others do and I have fears that they pick on me. BTW, India & China seem to be at the edge, but I can't say for sure that they sell buildings. Generally, world trade decreases. Now, some civs can't sell excess lux they used to trade (cash flows through my bank).

Originally posted by Spike59
so what is a "DL?" Double Login - a CFC no-no. I had to look it up :confused:

Grille - MPP's are a prelude to war, means the system is starting to take effect. The important thing right now for you is to keep your reputation up (as well as your defense-budget as a deterrant from the feared). Don't sign an MPP yourself and don't dare start a fight with anyone, for obvious reasons.

Just to clarify, you should get as much GPT for a loan as you can, no need to be generous! If your reputation stinks, lowering the interest rate won't help, you're better off giving them a seperate gift of gold (read Bamspeedy's "AI Attitude" article for more on this).

I'm glad you pointed out how other civs can't trade goods among each other. This is another huge effect of the world bank, and another reason why I call this a dominating strategy. I wish the skeptics would just try it instead of coming in here and ripping me.

Azik,

I think the reason you got negative responses is because you call this 'The Most Effective World- Dominating Strategy', which comes across as a little arrogant. Also, this statement is simply not true on the highest difficulties, and has yet to be proven on the lower difficulties (although almost any strategy can get a win on them).

Maybe if you put it forward as a useful strat, instead of the best way to play, you wouldn't have had so many negative responses.

You will find that controlling the AI's spare GPT is a strategy used by all the top players, includng giving GPT for free to encourage the AI's to research techs (when going for a quick tech race). Maybe this is another reason people aren't jumping up and down at being told that this is the way they should play to win.

I think this is useful looking, and something to do for fun :)

I agree it's not the best world dominating strat, because for the most part, you have to be in a position where you will soon (or are) dominate(ing in the first place)

originally posted by Azik Blaze:
Just to clarify, you should get as much GPT for a loan as you can, no need to be generous! If your reputation stinks, lowering the interest rate won't help, you're better off giving them a seperate gift of gold (read Bamspeedy's "AI Attitude" article for more on this).

Of course, I did try to get highest loan rates and did grab all of ai's spare gpt.
And as already stated, there wasn't any spot on my reputation (you can't establish your bank with a rep hit). Wars I started were *honorable*. Offering a gift would only increase attitude, at the most. (I do know Bamspeedy's great article).

I wanted to point out that ai's attitude towards me *seems* not to have any large effect on loan rates.
Thus, offering a gift wouldn't increase future rates, I guess. At least I saw an ai turning from furious to polite and still got the same rate. (The same was true for the other case, turning from polite to furious).
Once, I did notice a change of rate, but I had no idea about the cause.

MPPs: Except me of course, everbody signed at least one , but nothing happened. I was getting kind of bored and signed one MPP. Imagine. I gave in.
Side note: I haven't had the intention to do a test on this strategy at game start and established the bank late.
After all, I support this statement:
by Zachriel:
I couldn't see using the strategy exactly like that very often, but it is just one more tool in the tool chest.


At least the loan strategy is very useful to unknot ai trading. If an ai always used to trade a certain resource you don't have to others, then you get finally the chance to ask for a deal to get it the peaceful way.

I believe with a minor rep-hit, (as there are at least 2 degrees), you could still loan cash as they are doing the per turn payments, and you are giving the upfront cash, so if you break it, they gain, not you.

True, true. It's just not the best way to become a banker with a rep hit.

Originally posted by "T-hawk":

It boils down to this: Keep the AIs at war, take all their money, and you'll find yourself in the lead. We've known this for quite a long time. This is just a little trick to help maintain that state. Could be helpful, yes, but I'd hardly call it "The most effective world-dominating strategy".

Give Azik Blaze a break, this a impressive thread or none of you would have bothered to even post here.

I for one will try this strategy in my next game, maybe even my current game

let's give the person who created this thread a little bit more respect

:love:

Originally posted by Hygro
I believe with a minor rep-hit, (as there are at least 2 degrees), you could still loan cash as they are doing the per turn payments, and you are giving the upfront cash, so if you break it, they gain, not you. It doesn't matter how bad your rep is, the AI will always offer you GPT for a lump sum. And why not, they can never lose out in cash terms.

Often, well, sometimes, even though constant waring did not destroy cities, the transfer to another power knocks out the culture producting structures, and the city boundries drop to the area immediately around the city. If you have a high culture, and especially if the area is relatively close to your palace, you can use settlers in the spaces between the now reduced boundaries that suddenly have become neutral to settle, on say, rubber, or some other useful resource, or in a particularly fertile or well shielded area. You are then in a culture race with the city's new owner, but if you have more cash to rush culture buildings, you have a decent chance to take over the entire region. It will be densely settled, unless the cities flip to you and you then abandon them, or the city you settled, but when there is no other land to settle, or you need the resource and can't rely on trading to get it, it might we worth it.

You may not be able to rely on roads to get the benefits of resources "home", so harbors or airports may be helpful with this. Also assumes you are not going to be sneak attacked, or have the forces to punish the civ that "chose unwisely." I have observed neutral space opening up like this during wars, but have never been able to predict it happening to have settlers and defenders available to take advantage. If you can use "banking" to start wars where you want them, you could have settlers available at the right spots to take advantage.

Originally posted by Azik Blaze
You people are criticising even before you've tried the strategy for yourselves. So I will not discuss this any further until I get some intelligent and constructive feedback from people who have tried it.

OK. Without trying it exactly as stated, it's not a horrible strategy. However, if we replace gold with techs for the AI's payment of gold/turn, I have tried it. Either way, we are both getting gold/turn from the AI. The problems:

1. When the AI's slider is effected enough, it will get annoyed with your progress and its backwardness.
2. When annoyed enough, the AI just declares war, even hopeless ones, to get out of the gold/turn deal.

On emporer, I have had one AI swindle me out of more than 20,000 gold in one game through consecutive and hopeless war declarations just to get out of paying the crippling gold/turn.

When I trade tech to the AI for gold/turn:
1. I can research new ones anyways - it will become obsolete.
2. They will get the tech eventually whether or not I am the one that sells it to them for gold/turn.

When I give gold to the AI for gold/turn:
1. My gold is gone forever. Gold is not obsolete.
2. It gets my gold that it would NOT have gotten anyways, declares war, and does not pay the loan back.

I'm not suggesting it breaks all gold/turn deals, but if you push it too far, it is capable of declaring war just to break gold/turn deals. I'm just suggesting that it is not so easy to completely cripple the AI via gold/turn at higher levels. I feel that I am better off when it breaks a deal to get a free tech than say.... 5,000 gold from my coffers.

Edit: Given the choice between using my gold to do research and sell research that or to save gold to loan, I'd prefer getting the research done so that even when an AI breaks a deal, I still have my research.

AH! There is an application for this strategy.

There are times during the middle-late game when even at max research (4 turns) the player civ still accumulates more gold than can be used. Yes! In these situations, you can profit an extra bit from lending out the surplus gold! As Zachriel has already said, it certainly is an extra tool in the box.

1. When the AI's slider is effected enough, it will get annoyed with your progress and its backwardness.
2. When annoyed enough, the AI just declares war, even hopeless ones, to get out of the gold/turn deal.

This mostly applies to Emperor level or below, as I've never been able to completely drain the worlds ecconomy on Dieity ;).

One thing I've noticed in my games is when you slingshot ahead of a leading AI (ie. the one that had been the worlds tech broker) via something like a nationalisim slingshot followed by researching medicine/santiation first (since the AI ignore these in favor oc Communisim and Steam) and keep selling to that AI at first they will declare war on you at a VERY HIGH frequency. Even normally peaceful civs like France and India, and even if they stand totally no chance.

My speculation on this has allways been that when they suddenly go from swimming in money to running a defacit, they are forced to disband units to keep covering the cost of paying you (though we do know the AI CAN still keep paying gpt on earlier deals even if they have no money or cities left and no units other than a settlers and its transports carring them, I think this is an exception to the rule) which basically forces them to declare war to get out of the deal.

The typical pattern I see from this is sneak attack and sue for peace in just a few turns. A kind of "we really didn't wan't to go to war but felt we had no choice" kind of thing.

I'm not ceartian that is what goes on, but I do know that when you totally cripple an AI that had the clear ecconomic/tech lead and tons of gpt before, they react this way most of the time in my games.

That is one good reason to spead out who you sell @2nd to whenever possible unless you are trying to get somone to declare on you.

Conquer the world Illuminati style? LMAO! Yeah, i have a gun closest specifically for when the Illuminati take over completely, or the Majestic Twelve, or the Freemasons, whichever comes first, anyway, bottom line is lock and load.

As for your strategy? You actually got the computer to agree to GPT for Gold deals? How exactly does that work? The computer would probably tell em to go to hell more often than not.......

Nice strategy . So we are trading a small ( and temporary ) loss of gold to gain land and resources in the long term . I dont mind ( and don't think many other people will ) losing a few hundred gold to get a permanent source of some resource .

The computer doesn't often accept a loan offer (The AI has apparently read about the IMF's bait-and-switch tactics). What it does, though, is accept a 'generous' cash gift and then immediately agree to costly gpt deals for techs or lux. This achieves the same purpose - the AI usually spends its windfall quickly and then has to spend the rest of the 20 turns reducing its research or disbanding units.

Interesting read and strategy. I'm currently playing a huge map with 24 civs (only vic condition is conquering), and my civ is the biggest and baddest on the block. I've been trying to figure out a way to instigate wars between other countries in order to keep my democracy out of as many wars as possible. I think I will definitely check this strategy out tonight...hopefully it works to some extent, because it seems too good to be true, IMO.

Neat strat. It's got a lot more finesse then "And then sent in my 97 tanks and conquered the whole world." Anyways...

Azik, Are you sure this is on the 1.29f patch? on a Regular Civ III game? Without the PTW expansion?

I quickly tried out the strat described on a game I'm currently playing. At this stage I'm #2 with 3 civs left in an originally 8 player standard map. I was #5 and managed to claw my way up to #2 by cozying up with #1, and riding its coatails when it started wars. I've managed to start a 50 turn war between #1 (Japan) and the former #2 (India) through an MPP. I have exited the war long ago, but Japan and India are still at it. They hate each other.

Anyways, both other civs are about as rich as I am. Japan (#1 civ and with a Polite attitude) has 2200 + gold. Me #2 civ, has 1800+ gold. India #3 Civ has 1200+ Gold and Furious Attitude.

I tried offering my entire treasury to both Japan and India and neither would accept any gpt or lump sum deals, even when they would made a profit. I offered 1,800 gold in exchange for a lump sum of 100 gold to Japan, on Polite, and they still refused it.
I also tried offering Japan 1800 gold in exchange for 1 gpt and my advisor immediately tells me the deal is not going to work.


Frankly, If a Civ on polite refuses, I see holes in your strategy. Either certain conditions must be met, or it simply does not work. And the way the AI and my foreign minister behaves seems to point to a very specific fix Firaxis has made. The AI makes generally competent choices when it trades, but somehow, it refuses the very idea of a loan in exchange for gpt. Even if they turn a profit.

If you can confirm your game version clearly, and explain what conditions (other than Rome is militaristic and it hates France) made it work, then I'd be less skeptical.

Welcome to CFC, dexters! :)
Originally posted by dexters
Azik, Are you surre this is on the 1.29f patch? on a Regular Civ III game? Without the PTW expansion?

Can't speak for Azik, but since he hasn't been around lately:
This works w/o PTW.

Expected since I just made peace with it.

You should not make war while using this strategy (this is a downside, of course)

I tried offering my entire treasury to both Japan and India and neither would accept any gpt or lump sum deals, even when they would made a profit.

There have been a lot of discussions about *stupid* ai, especially their trading behaviour.
Anyway, these rules must be accepted:
-they'll never agree to make gpt payments that exceed their current gpt income
-a ruined reputation of yours lets them act very doubtfully, regardless of their attitude - even if they are gracious; in fact, you can get comparatively the best rate of interest from a furious civ when your reputation is fine!
So it might have occured that...

Frankly, If a Civ on polite refuses, I see holes in your strategy.
Either certain conditions must be met, or it simply does not work.

However, I agree on the last point. Surely, you can't *plan* to win by this stat. But it may help you occasionally. Furthermore, on monarch and higher, it's getting difficult to *feed* your opponents with enough money. And of course, you have to wait for them to start a war.
You'd better take over initiative and declare war on a weak neighbor than waiting for christmas.
Conclusion: Don't bank on banks on higher levels. But play with it.

Grille, a question.

Is there a way for me to find out, perhaps through a utility program quantitatively my reputation score? If so, please lead me to the item.

One of civilization 3's great failings it seems is that it lacks enough indicators when it comes to attitude/reputation management.

The reputation thing just seems to be sort of *black&white*. Although it is suspected that there's still a *grey* level inbetween. Now I don't want to confuse you. Generally, the quality is more important than the quantity. And I don't know if there's "counter" for quantity of reputation. An indicator of a bad reputation may be a statement of your opponent during negotiations, such as "we know what you did to the Romans".
Only one rep hit (even when received in ancient times) can skrew up trading/deals for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, the "quantities" of attitude have been researched by Bamspeedy. You can read his great arcticle "ai attitude" here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=44999)
BTW, if there's any concept etc (e.g. rep hit causes) not clear to you: Don't bother to ask in the newbee thread, stickied at the top of "General Discussions".

Just a follow up on this whole discussion. I'm currently playing a new game as the Americans. I'm in the early early game. No wars yet. Met my neighbours, the Aztecs. They are polite. I'm rich, 5 cities to their 2. So I give them my entire treasury 402 gold. This gives the Aztecs 440 gold.

Using Azik's banking system, you would expect a breakeven (nominally) return of 402/20 turns = 20 gpt per turn. This is actually a negative interest rate given the time value of money, but as a Finance major, I understand It can get confusing. So I'm just calling it breakeven for the sake of clarity. You'd think the Aztecs would take it. Nope.

So I sweeten the deal. With their expanded bank account, I offer then a tech, pottery in exchange for 20 gpt. Still a no go.

I'll keep trying, but it is increasingly apparent that the banking thing may not work, and may only work, if at all, in very specific circumstances. Reading through the entire thread, I'm surprised no one has actually tried to confirm this. All the discussion up to this point has been theoretical. Unless Azik was playing a pre 1.21f version of Civ3, when the AI was easy to swindle gpt wise, I don't think the banking thing is even feasable. And I've tried it on both Warlord and Regent just to be sure it's not a difficulty setting issue.

this screencap is from a warlord game.
http://members.shaw.ca/dextersy/aztec.gif

The AI always runs research at a full or nearly full rate in the Ancient Age and they very rarely (if ever) have gpt to spare. You can't usually get GPT from them until the Mid to Late Medieval Age.

A couple of more "extreme" trades to prove the point.

trade 1: 405 lump sum in exchange for 1 gpt. The answe is NO
http://members.shaw.ca/dextersy/aztec2.gif

trade 12: 405 lump sum + 3 techs in exchange for 1 gpt. The answe is still NO
http://members.shaw.ca/dextersy/aztec3.gif

They are likely running science so they have a surplus of 0. Check their treasury next turn. Is it still 35?

Even if their bank account is expanded, they won't accept a gpt deal that exceeds their income. If their income was 0 gpt and their account was 10,000 gold, you could offer the sweetest things while they won't accept paying any gpt for it. As said before, some call this *stupid*.
Back to the bank: Perhaps it's too early in your game to establish the bank. You might check F3 screen from time to time (but also their *trading behaviour*!) to observe their kind of government. Under despotism, the have very likely a very low gpt income.
Another hint: Sometimes you need to split your money offered. Example: You have around 400 gold to offer. Their income is high enough to accept a loan deal. For some reason, they won't accept a single deal, say 20 gpt for your offer of 380 gold. But 4 individual deals 5gpt/95 gold will do it though. I can't say why, but I have observed such ai manners.
Anyway, regarding your game (they have 2 towns & you have 5), I'd suggest to build up a decent military and kick them...

dexters: In all your examples there is the very simple answer that the AI cannot accept a trade where they pay something they currently don't have. If they have a current net income of 3gpt, they will accept to pay 3gpt for whatever tech you offer, but try to ask for 4gpt and they "will never accept".

Similarily, when they don't have a positive income, they will "never accept" any trade where they give as much as 1gpt, simply because they don't have it.

This thread started explaining one tactic to take away a civ's positive income. The tactic will obviously not work if the civ already is without positive income.

I stand corrected. It does work as Speaker, Grille and TheNiceOne has suggested.

The interest rate seems to run between 8 to 10%, but looks to be more like a standard 10%, witht he variability coming from the indivisibility of the gold units during smaller trades but as the amount gets into the thousands, the rate tends towards 10%.

I'd like to add a tip that may be useful to some of you. A quick way to find out if the AI is willing to accept gpt is to test a trade where you give them X, and ask for Y gpt. Your foreign minister apparently knows exactly how much gpt the AI giv makes but he is too lazy to tell you directly :). Anyways, if he frowns and tells you "They will never accept such a deal" you know they don't have the gpt to pay for it. If you're asking 1 gpt and your advisor tells you the AI civ won't accept it, that means the AI civ have 0 or maybe negative income.

The same idea applies to civs who can pay you positive amounts of gpt. If you ask for amounts more than they earn, your advisor will tell you "They will never accept such deals".

I don't think the advisor thing is a major discovery, as it seems many already know how to milk the AI of their gpt income. But perhaps it may be news to some of you.

Anyways, thanks to Grille et al. for their patience with my skepticism. I am now convinced.


Edit: As first mentioned in another thread by another poster, I should also mention that it is possible to play banker and still wage war. As I understood it, some of the earlier posts raised concerns over your reputation and war. While it is likely your squeaky clean reputation will take a hit because you wage war, the AI civs are more than willing to overlook the acts of agression. Granted I haven't really razed any cities or nuked anyone and I'm financing the war of the two allies who can pay me considerable amounts of gpt for the banking strat to be worthwhile.

*****
Just as an addendum to the Grille's original thoughts that we shouldn't "bank" on this strategy winning us the game, I wholeheartedly agree. It is a nice way of getting that big fat bank account to generate some money IF you can fine a civ who has the gpt income to pay you. But most AI civs are infact somewhere at 0 gpt for a good part of the game. Or have low gpt incomes where if a banking strategy is possible, you're looking at 3gpt a turn for a loan of 55-54 lump sum. An interest profit of 5 -6 gold.

Secondly, sometimes, you just don't have the cash to do this on a large scale. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but despite managing for research slider and making a decent income, for most of the early to mid game, I'm rush building things, and upgrading units so my treasury is always very low. And I have better uses for that money than the 10% interest. As already noted, on Diety, AI civs simply declare war if you try to get them into a position where they cannot make their financial committments.

Azik, if you want to join I'm running a SG largely based upon your strategy. The thread's here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1050005#post1050005

Or if you just want to let us know if we're going about the game as you would, feel free to comment

I have tried this strategy (before reading this) and it works, even on diety.

See my GOTM industrial age spoiler for a quick glance. I cant give away the finer details here, so here is a general example. I trade my treasury of about lets say, 300 gold, every turn for gpt in return. Soon, country x declares war on another nation, and in return, every nation declares war on them. Although they are powerful enough to defend themselves, they lose out on the economic front. Their army cannot grow any larger, they are in a stalemate, in a war weariness war, losing out on the economy, and starting to fall apart. After about 10-20 turns they give in, and make peace.

By that time they are low in treasury and gpt, and lose their lead. A better way to set them further back is to sell them your treasury for gpt, then buy back what you sold to them with technologies. Now they have started a war, are low in gpt and in treasury.

Although this strategy by itself is not enough to win the game (there were a few massive factors in my games that have tried this)

So in other words, this is an effective strategy on all levels, but you cant win the game by this. Even an average AI player compared to you will out-research you (but not as much as the weakened superpower). You cant weaken the entire world by this, nor can you perform this in multiple instances (unless you are rather good).

I dont think this is an exploit or a cheap tactic, as you could have just bought a huge army with the money you are selling, which is most probably better (and easier) in some instances. In some instances, this would be the best path to victory, in others, it would not. E.g. if the superpower was on a continent of his own, the strategy would slow the pace, but the superpower would not be destroyed. An ok strategy.
If there were no other evenly matched enemies, the plan could backfire, the superpower becoming more powerful. Bad idea.
But if there were two AI superpowers, evenly matched, sharing borders, this is one of the best strategies out there.

EDIT: See edit II

And if this is considered a too easy way to win, then try a harder game. Give that jungle start a go. Or even harder, try a Dry/Warm/3 billion years/Archipelago/Emporer game. With a start location of tundra, desert, and a bit of grassland. Isn't a cheap way to win easily anymore, is it? (BTW, I lost that game to culture, in 2000 and something AD)

EDIT II: Removed critical analysis of Dexter's tests, as the point had well been proven.

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
EDIT II: Removed critical analysis of Dexter's tests, as the point had well been proven.

Gingerbread Man, you'd be glad to know that after my initial skepticism, I've become a great fan of this strategy.

I still take issue with how Azik misrepresented the strategy as a sure fire way to win a game. If you are not winning, extra monies could be better spent maxing out research and playing the tech broker or rush building improvements. Even in the cases where you somehow find surplus funds, lending them for 8, 9 or 10% return isn't much. 10% of 1000 gold lump sum is only 100 gold interest spread out over 20 turns. I see that you agree with me ont his point.


RE: your superpower comment. This is highly subject to chance. Unless the two super powers are on a different continent playing banker is a rather risky business as you risk having both come after you. While there is some truth to the fact that AI civs are often eager to knock down their opponents a notch or declare war to weaken a close power rival, they are just as predisposed to attack a weak neighbour. Giving superpowers large cash infusions for gold perturn payments is not a guarantee of both going to war. I've seen plenty of cases in the many games now that I've employed this strategy where the superpowers turned around declared war on some other 2 tier Civ and proceeded tobecome more powerful.

This whole strategy is highly dependent on the situation. it's all about your location. If the AI is far removed, I care more about my profit, they can go beat each other up or pick on someone else. A set of superpowers sitting next door to me will not get the same deals. I'd probably be more willing to play tech broker with them and keep them in check that way. --Even then the definition of superpower is subject to gross misinterpretation. A lot of people refer to superpowers as game leading AI civs, but sometimes the human player is so far ahead it doesn't matter what you give to the AI "superpower" next door. They still aren't a major threat. I apply a more rigorous definition of superpower in my games. Civs are superpowers if they are considerably ahead of the rest of the pact. And by definition, you are looking at at least A Civ with 1.5 to 2 times the power of its cloest rival. In those cases, if the human player is in the same league, you would not want to give your rivals those large lump sum gold. You'd give them to the non superpowers and forego the large payments for more modest interest incomes.


Originally posted by jpowers
The computer doesn't often accept a loan offer (The AI has apparently read about the IMF's bait-and-switch tactics). What it does, though, is accept a 'generous' cash gift and then immediately agree to costly gpt deals for techs or lux. This achieves the same purpose - the AI usually spends its windfall quickly and then has to spend the rest of the 20 turns reducing its research or disbanding units.

It depends. Playing "Banker" is more of a win-win for me and the AI. I get my money working for me instead of sitting in my treasury doing nothing and giving an AI civ a cash infusion usually means they will rushbuild improvements.

It is not uncommon to have an AI increase its gpt income as a result of this deal and they are now in a position to pay higher prices (if I have a tech lead). It's a good way to accumulate wealth and to constructively help an AI civ without giving them free money.

As for a loan offer, I don't think you can offer the AI a loan. I don't recall every seeing it as a conversational option in my diplomatic dealings. You CAN ask the AI to loan you money though. What Azik is discussing is a synthetic loan, a loan that the game AI doesn't see as a loan, but the trading mechanism is such that the cashflow mimmicks it.

Originally posted by wargasm23
Originally posted by "T-hawk":
Give Azik Blaze a break, this a impressive thread or none of you would have bothered to even post here.


No offense but this is a lame thread. He is basically describing loans, you can no doubt read this in the manual. If you have ever taken out a loan the mechanics should be simple.

As to the use of this strategy, I doubt highly this would work well in general use. Its far more effective to just ally with Rome to fight France, not to mention I would be pretty wary with Rome breaking deals anyway since they often do. Forcing them below their gpt is shaky as well for a number of reasons, they have a slider and lots of room to modify their gpt, the secondly is simply they get a lot of free unit maintanence.

This strategy could at most be used instead of other tradable assests like luxuries and techs. If you are not leading in tech, and have no luxuries to trade you can try being a banker.

Whenever I decide to read up on some more or less detailed info gathered by another user of these fora, I usually read a lot of posts, to see response by others to the possible effects of the info that has been provided. Most of the time (if I actually have time to play civ) I try to discover ways that will work for myself, but I read these strategy threads from time to time to broaden my perspective - even though I might not agree with all strat's and perhaps not even remember them or try them out. But all in all - I use the bits and pieces I can remember in situations where it is more or less obvious to me that they might work. Like Zachriel stated - a tool. Tools do not work all the time -> a screwdriver is not very efficiently used as a hammer ;) , but it can certainly work the screws....

Edited for even more thoughts:

One of the ways civ3 was described to work prior to release (IIRC) was that you would now have the chance to play a master of puppets way of warfare. This strategy, or "strategy" if you must insist ;), is...err...a variation on the master of puppets theme. However I mus admit that it did look better on first read, rather than on second -> could do with more documentation (which is probably why I tend to trust the more experienced players' articles)

Originally posted by Smirk


No offense but this is a lame thread. He is basically describing loans, you can no doubt read this in the manual. If you have ever taken out a loan the mechanics should be simple.
Strategies aren't shown in the manual. What you are thinking of is 'shall you grant me a loan?' This is the continuous loaning of money to two civs who hate each other, who share borders. The amount of money you loan is based on who is winning. The loser gets the most loans, to draw out the war.

Originally posted by Smirk
As to the use of this strategy, I doubt highly this would work well in general use. Its far more effective to just ally with Rome to fight France, not to mention I would be pretty wary with Rome breaking deals anyway since they often do. Forcing them below their gpt is shaky as well for a number of reasons, they have a slider and lots of room to modify their gpt, the secondly is simply they get a lot of free unit maintanence.
1)It does work in general use, it caused me a World War in a GOTM, while I looked on from the sidelines, gaining a reputation as a 'peacemonger' while I was funding wars. I won Diplo.
2)But the thing is that if you ally Rome against france, and you help, you now have no France, and a new superpower of Rome. Being banker means you can turn the tide of a war, boosting or draining civ's economies as you wish, weakening both sides to collapse, even both destroyed easily by you.
3)You cant force an AI below their gpt. They will refuse to do it. If their income drops after you make a deal and they dont have enough gpt to pay you, they will declare a war. That is thw whole point. BTW you still get your gpt from them, they just lose a unit every turn.
4) I think you are mixing up lending gpt for money in return. that is taking a loan. Here we are making a loan. With extra money, they rush military above their free support.


Originally posted by Smirk
This strategy could at most be used instead of other tradable assests like luxuries and techs. If you are not leading in tech, and have no luxuries to trade you can try being a banker.

Again, this is not buying money off people for gpt, or just buying things for money. This is selling your treasury every turn for gpt in return, to give them huge reserves of money to rush military, a low gpt which doesn't support the military, so the AI uses their large, unsupportable military for a war. Then you fund their enemy with lots of gold, to make a counter-attack. Do this back and forth till their countries fall apart, or a world war starts.

I think that most people who dont like this either dont understand this, or have not tried it when and where it should be tried. It really works best from Railroad onwards, on harder AIs, who have huge gpt income that they will sell to you for gpt in return.

Originally posted by Smirk

No offense but this is a lame thread.


Exactly what is lame about this thread? Some extremely insightful posts have been made by the top veteran illuminating the covert trading world of civilization. The strategy suggested here is in fact very effective in crippling powerfull nations and can in deed help a player achieve victory (though I agree, this may not be the "Most Effective World-Dominating Strategy.") I think by now it has been proven (after some clarification and testing) that this strategy does work and is effective, so lay off! If you don't like it, don't read it!

Once upon a time Napoleon needed money to fight a war against europe, so he sold Louisiana to the USA for several million dollars ( I cant remember if it was 5, 10, or 15 million). Anyway, where did america get all that money?

Answer: they borrowed it from english banks.

I guess this is civ immitating real life once again.

how do you give an ai a loan?

Originally posted by budweiser
Once upon a time Napoleon needed money to fight a war against europe, so he sold Louisiana to the USA for several million dollars ( I cant remember if it was 5, 10, or 15 million). Anyway, where did america get all that money?

Answer: they borrowed it from english banks.

I guess this is civ immitating real life once again. Yeah, except you can't buy cities (territory) anymore :(

Originally posted by Bluemofia
how do you give an ai a loan? Offer them a lump sum of cash for gpt that equals more than 20 times your lump sum (assuming you want interest).

I haven't seen the AI accept a loan with interest in a long time, so I'm not sure how to do it (they never want to pay off the loan to its full extent, which is annoying).

This is a rather... well... it's a thread.

@ Dexters: (If you're still following this) Something you should know about the "It didn't work" thing you tried. As I recently learned from some more experienced players in a SG, the AI rarely pay gpt when they're in the ancient ages. You were trying to get gpt and Montezuma was still "ancient".

Though I can't say I have "dominated the world" through banking, I have been able to negotiate a number of lump sum/gpt loans to the AI. The typical deal is 18 gold for 1gpt (Or multiples of these number) which is just under 1.03% return on my HP12C.

As a general rule I'll do these loans in a couple of circumstances. First is when I've got a nice amount of cash in the Middle Ages and I'm trying to eat away at the AI research ability. It's difficult to truly cripple them, but you can slow them down just a little if you do several of these turns in a row. Get a few other AI addicted to these small loans, and in time you can be making some nice gpt.

Another time I'll do this is if I manage to get a nice economic lead (I've got Wall Street and the AI doesn't) and I have more than 1,000 gold in the treasury. Anything over 1k gold doesn't make interest, so why not make something?

The downside to this is that if the AI is unable to meet his obligations, it usually means war...so you don't want to stretch them too far... unless you want the war and you want the AI to take a huge rep hit for breaking 15-20 deals with you...

That's my $0.02. (Pun intended)