I'm kinda http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Argh.gif since I found out that a (size 1-6) town with a wall enhanced by the ownership of the Great Wall has +100% defense but will go DOWN to +50% when it grows to a city (size 7+).

This seems somewhat illogical.

So I want to adjust my mod to allow for this +100% to remain in effect (at least until the GW becomes redundant).

I'm thinking that just removing the bombard defense bonus of the wall improvement will achieve this.

Is this correct? Are there other (hardcoded or otherwise) aspects that need to be considered?

The reason only towns get the benefit of city walls is that cities have that benefit built-in

Originally posted by zulu9812
The reason only towns get the benefit of city walls is that cities have that benefit built-in
But that 'built in' benefit is less than the benefit of a GW enhanced wall. ;)

What makes you say the defense value goes down in a size 7 city? Have you tested it? I realize the civilopedia entry says the Great Wall doubles wall strength, but if you look in the Editor, the Great Wall has the flag "Doubles City Defenses" which the help screen explains as "City's defense ratings doubled". To me, this implies that a wonder with that flag would increase all defense-adding improvements, including those built-in to the size, making a size 7 city 100% just like a walled size 6.

Originally posted by pdescobar
What makes you say the defense value goes down in a size 7 city? Have you tested it? I realize the civilopedia entry says the Great Wall doubles wall strength, but if you look in the Editor, the Great Wall has the flag "Doubles City Defenses" which the help screen explains as "City's defense ratings doubled". To me, this implies that a wonder with that flag would increase all defense-adding improvements, including those built-in to the size, making a size 7 city 100% just like a walled size 6.
Thats what Hygro said when I asked about it in the newbie thread.But then Killer said it didn't.:confused:

I believed Hygro until Annares questioned his answer and Hygro stated what you're saying; I thought it was a bit of a long bow to draw to reason 'purely' from editor labels (no offense; but I've already encountered widely varying views from posters I would tend to trust, yourself included).

I must admit, I had somewhat of an ulterior motive posting this as I would really like to know the answer myself.

Originally posted by Tacit_Exit

Thats what Hygro said when I asked about it in the newbie thread.But then Killer said it didn't.:confused:

I believed Hygro until Annares questioned his answer and Hygro stated what you're saying; I thought it was a bit of a long bow to draw to reason 'purely' from editor labels (no offense; but I've already encountered widely varying views from posters I would tend to trust, yourself included).

I must admit, I had somewhat of an ulterior motive posting this as I would really like to know the answer myself.

You are correct, it is not the best policy to take editor labels as gospel, which is why I prefaced my post with those 2 questions. All I have to go on is the editor and the civilopedia (any anecdotal game remembrances are useless for something like this.) And I will defer to the editor every time in that case.

As for this, what evidence did Annares or Killer offer to refute the editor? The best thing to do, of course, is test, but that's an unbelievably monotonous process. I once created a test scenario to see if the defender bonuses stacked or not, but I couldn't take more than about 100 attacks before I became bored to tears and decided I could live with the ambiguity :D

Originally posted by pdescobar


You are correct, it is not the best policy to take editor labels as gospel, which is why I prefaced my post with those 2 questions. All I have to go on is the editor and the civilopedia (any anecdotal game remembrances are useless for something like this.) And I will defer to the editor every time in that case.

As for this, what evidence did Annares or Killer offer to refute the editor? The best thing to do, of course, is test, but that's an unbelievably monotonous process. I once created a test scenario to see if the defender bonuses stacked or not, but I couldn't take more than about 100 attacks before I became bored to tears and decided I could live with the ambiguity :D

Evidence:None actually, theres a whole dialogue between me and Hygro in the newb thread about it and I pm'ed Killer to confirm after Annares questioned Hygros conclusion and Killer stated GW had no effect on cities (7-12) [man I wish they'd used better terminology;I'm sick of typing 7-12 after cities]

Anyway this is buggin me enough that I'm gonna test it as soon as I find out how to use the 'Debug Mode'.I'll post results when I'm done.

Originally posted by Tacit_Exit
Evidence:None actually, theres a whole dialogue between me and Hygro in the newb thread about it and I pm'ed Killer to confirm after Annares questioned Hygros conclusion and Killer stated GW had no effect on cities (7-12) [man I wish they'd used better terminology;I'm sick of typing 7-12 after cities]


I agree about the terminology. It's a bad idea to use "city" as a size designation since that's really the general name. Something like village-town-metropolis would've worked better, but it's too late now :)

Anyway this is buggin me enough that I'm gonna test it as soon as I find out how to use the 'Debug Mode'.I'll post results when I'm done.

Ok, good luck. For the debug mode, there's a little bit of an explanation of what's available if you get help on the "debug mode" checkbox in the editor -- I've never really used it myself.

What I would do is something like this (not utilizing anything from the debug mode): Give player 2 (the AI) a city of size 7 on grass with a bunch of defensive units (like 20) and give Player 1 (the human) a stack of offensive units outside it. (keep everything 1-movement point units so retreat doesn't skew the results). Then start it up with preserve random seed off. It's probably wise to use units of near equal strength like infantry on offense and rifle on defense, all the same experience (since editor places regular units, remove the veteran and elite hp bonuses to prevent hp differences from promotion) this should give the defender a 9.6 (or 9.9 depending on bonus-stacking ;)) to 6 advantage and so you should win somewhere around 30% of the battles. Attack with everyone on the first turn, keeping track of results. Reload, and do it again. The more trials the better. 100 attacks total (5 loads if you have 20 units) would be a bare minimum, I think. After you reach what you feel is a reasonable number, change the scenario to give the AI city the great wall (but not metallurgy ;)) and do it again. This time you should only get about 20% victories since the AI defenders are all 12.6/13.2 if the great wall does affect that city, or 30% like before if it doesn't. Of course, if your numbers vary widely from 20% or 30% then the combat calculator is lying to me or something else is going on :)

I'm actually running the test in the background as I type this.
I realized once I fiddled a bit that the debug wasn't necessary.
I've got 8 test scenarios, all with 1000 warriors outside a city so they can attack on turn 1, and 1000 warriors in defense.
Test1 Town, wall:no,gw:no
Test2 Town, wall:yes,gw:no
Test3 Town, wall:no,gw:yes
Test4 Town, wall:yes,gw:yes
Test5 City, wall:no,gw:no
Test6 City, wall:yes,gw:no
Test7 City, wall:no,gw:yes
Test8 City, wall:yes,gw:yes
Should be able to run each once (thank god for stack move!) and get some reasonable significant differences outa this.

*edit* please see this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47118) for results!