HOT 3 Setup:

Civilization: Ottomans (Scientific and Industrious)

Large Map
Land Mass: Pangaea - 70%
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
4 Billion years
Barbs: Roaming
Rivals: 11 all random

Difficulty Level: DEITY

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot3start.JPG

Roster:

Hotrod
Aggie
Jack Merchant
Borealis
OPEN - A Non-Diety player or a Deity Vet winning to help 4 Deity Neophytes ;)

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3start_4000BC.zip

Hint #1:

You are scientific - make sure you understand the "Nationalism Slightshot (tm - Architect).

4000 BC (0): With a deer in the city limits and a fish visable to the SW I elect to move the settler 1 tile west. This will do two things, get 2 bonus tiles in city limits and pop what could be a dangerous hut.

3950 BC (1): Found Istanbul and pop the hut, it is deserted. Start on Pottery at 90%, due in 36 turns. Building a warrior for scouting.

3900 BC (2): zzzz

3850 BC (3): zzzz

3800 BC (4): zzzz

3750 BC (5): Build warrior start another. Sending Warrior NW.

3700 BC (6): zzzz

3650 BC (7): Spot wines and a river to the NW.

3600 BC (8): There is hut in the mountains will pop it in 2 turns.

3550 BC (9): Build a warrior start another. Warrior will stay home to keep everyone happy.

3500 BC (10): Pop the hut and get a settler [dance]!! The question is where to put him.

Without being able to see too much of the map elect to keep him on the river rather than make a claim on the wines right away. One of the first settler from Istanbul will do that soon enough.

Send the settler 2 tiles east to the corner of the river, no overlap with Istanbul and what looks like a good balance of grasslands and hills.

3450 BC (11): Boarders expand, settler is in postion for next turn founding of city number 2.

3400 BC (12): Istanbul builds another warrior and starts a settler. Found Edrine, start warrior. Warrior levels Istanbul and scouting to the NE.

3350 BC (13): With Pottery due in 8 turns elect to start a fourth warrior now and wait for the city to grow and bring a granary online before starting a settler.

3300 BC (14): Istanbul builds warrior starts barracks as a pre-build for the granary. Spot a light blue boarder to the NW, it could be Abe. Pottery is due in 7.

3250 BC (15): Will have contact next turn. Exploration continues.

3200 BC (16): Edrine builds warrior, starts barracks for vet units. Pottery is due in 5. Spot another hut to the NE. Abe is met, he is annoyed, and is ahead by Alphabet and pottery and will not trade.

3150 BC (17): With pottery due in 4 start forestry at Istanbul to speadup the granary. Pop the hut and it is deserted.

3100 BC (18): Abe is sending settler our way. There are more wines to the NE.

3050 BC (19): With Abe being agressive decide too go with a settler now and granary next. MM to grow and build in 2 turns.

3000 BC (20): Research at 30% to get Pottery in 1 with +5gpt. Settler will complete next turn but could be swapped to barracks to get 30 sheilds up on the granary. Forestry will complete next turn as well adding another 10 shields. That leaves 20 more sheilds to complete the granary in 4 turns. Then start our first settler. IF we can afford to wait is the question. Abe has only NewYork but there are 2 settlers that just left his boarders. And the vast green will fillup fast - I think we have to get the settler out now then go for the granary next.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3_3000BC.zip

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot3_3000BC.JPG

Hotrod (just played)
Aggie <==== playing now play 20 this round
Jack Merchant (on deck)
Borealis
Open

As a reminder: NO exploits, honor 20 turns deals, no ROP abuse etc etc, and no automated workers or long goto commands.

HINT #1: Learn and use the Nationalism slingshot (LK)

OK, got it. Try to play tonight (CET), l but I have another game going as well. Also Ottomans :)

Any suggestions for the next cities / dotmap anyone?

Not a good start position there ! Contacts may be slow in coming with us apparently on the periphery of the continent. Our scouting warriors should probably refrain from opening huts - getting them killed may set us back by half an age in the tech race.
I tried to make a dotmap; please be gentle, never made one before. Dark purple, orange and dark blue are priorities to seal off our borders. White dot looks tasty (is that a game forest up there?). Light green is a longshot. Pink and yellow can wait until last, we shouldn't get beaten to these spots. Black might be moved depending on what's under the fog.
If we were to get most or all of these spots, Edrine and blue dot qualify as possible FP locations..

I'd switch Istanbul to a granary, unless the American settler pairs appear to be heading south. It is obvious that we need to go to war with the Americans, preferably with horsemen. Our terrain doesn't look good for saltpeter, and even iron is doubtful.

If u want a fifth player i'm in, got 4 PTW emperor wins but cant seem to beat deity.

Looking at dot map wouldnt blue dot be better on hill adjacent to wines. better for defence, doesnt waste 2 bonus grassland and instant hook up for lux. pink dot then moved 1 square sw.

Hm, didn't look closely enough - can't believe I overlooked thos two bg tiles ! I agree with swiftsure on moving blue dot, being closer to the capital will also help with corruption.

Swiftsure: Welcome!

Late last night I didn't have a chance to dot map the area. A couple things. Blue should be moved either to the hill or maybe just 1 tile south to reduce overlap with Istanbul. The yellow dot moved NE 1 tile, again to reduce overlap. And press the white dot 1 tile North to bring the wines online and cut overlap with Edrine.

I think the wines city is a priority to help with happiness maybe the White and purple to help seal the area and allow us to backfill at yellow and pink.

Any more comments on settler vs. granary? The Americans are out and about and look to be heading EAST but may send more toward our NW before we can get a settler to OUR wines.

Hotrod

There appears to be *TWO* different blocks of wines if I read the map correctly. Do you think America will get them both? Only one in critical for self owned luxuries - the block of two is a bonus.

I want to have the granary first. Otherwise our city won't grow fast enough.

EDIT: I want to suggest that we always spend 12 to 24 hours on comments after a new update. That allows us to weigh all the possibilities and identify errors.

No I don't think America will get both.

Pulling in the closest wine town soon will help with home grown happiness. Getting the second city with 2 more wines will aid later for trading.

The other concern is how far to the North or NE are the other civs.

Hotrod

You have answered your own question. You put a long delay for settler #3 without the granary.

Some Comments:

a) if the wines are on the river (which I think they are) I would have settled there.

b) Builds: finish settler and start Granary in Istanbul, use the worker to chop wood and speed the Granary;
Swap Edrine to Worker and use the Worker to chop wood and bring irrigation down to the Game-tile

c) as a general advise: don't be too afraid about some overlap. 15 tiles per city are good enough.

d) try to found 8 cities as soon as possible and build the FP fast.

Good Luck :)

Rowain


PS: all of the above are just my opinion and could very well be :smoke:

i think i'd stick with blue on the hill, yellow i'd only move if there was fish or whales under the shroud.

@ Rowain: Considered on the wines directly but was concerned with the 3 tile overlap with Istanbul. Maybe my old habits of getting very little overlap need to be broken down a bit ;). The worker is chopping now and should have only 2 turns left. Enough time to finish the settler and get a 10 sheild jump on the granary.

My concern is delaying the settler for the granary and allowing Abe to push further towards us. Getting another worker is a must soonish. The barrracks may be in the category of what can wait should (tm).

Thanks to all for your input :goodjob: I am confident that Aggie will have a good set of turns and we will have many other things to discuss tomorrow.

Hotrod

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf

a) if the wines are on the river (which I think they are) I would have settled there.




A better move with the wines - you could have settler one square away next to the river and irrigated the wines. When it comes to food grassland = 2, wines = 1, irrigation = 1. This gives 4 food, -1 penalty, and still 3 food. Wines are the bonus food tile that many players forget. Cows and wheat are obvious, forest game is often missed, but wines are missed by way to many people. A faster growth city is very valuable at all levels, more so at deity.


@Hotrod - be very careful asking for comments. You may get more then you desire.

Lee: point taken. If "help" gets to be too much I am sure we all will let you know. I recalled the wines from LK33, missed it then :).

One comment, as most people have said what I would have- we need to remember to keep our worker count higher than usual, to build on our advantage of being Industrious. After we get the granary, see if you can build a worker in between a settler or two, as we need to connect luxuries and improve tiles, as well as connect our cities for speedy travel.

It looks like Edrine will be a military city, and if I'm right, we need to build at least one more high-food city to help colonize that open space. If we can irrigate the wines, Blue dot would be ideal, and help us pump settlers and workers. The AI will out-build us in city number unless it's at war, but if we pay enough attention to terrain improvements, we'll be able to fight for land when the time comes.

Also- please, even if it means producing a warrior to 'follow' the settlers, make sure new cities have some sort of garrison within a turn or two. The AI, especially on Deity, loves to declare on you when you have empty cities, and often won't turn back later once it's sent troops.

I second Borealis comments! We can infact get another worker from Edrine now if desired. Use it to cut some wood and get our barracks online and use the worker get to those irrigated wines that much faster.

Alot has been said and a lot of options are on the table. I think Aggie has a few decisions to be made and so far a least we are okay. Getting a settler helped !

From the peanut gallery, a couple of more comments....

Blue dot is obviously your next city. Another factor to remember when choosing its exact site is that rivers alleviate the need for aqueducts. Ducts can take a lot of shields in the earlyish part of the game. And as Rowain mentioned, don't be too afraid of overlap. By the time your cities grow beyond size 12 (after hospitals), so much of the game is already decided.

As a scientific civ, libraries are a better culture value than temples....

Good luck on your game. I am sorry that I missed joining up. I am in the same boat as most of you....have done emperor, but not deity.

Could I be put at a later time later in the schedule? I've got a lot of games going at he moment. And in all of them it is or was my turn...

I can take it and play tomorrow, if there's no objection.

Go for it Jack

Ok, got it. As a matter of fact, I'll play right now. It's only midnight anyway :)

I'd just like to second the thing about irrigating the game tile. This is *very* important. You're an industrious civ, so cutting the forest and getting irrigation down to the game tile shouldn't take long, and the chop speeding the granary is a bonus.

Once you have that going, you'll have the most important thing of all in a Deity/builder game: a settler factory that has the capacity to let you expand at a competitive rate.

-Sirp.

Preturn: Istanbul changed to barracks -> granary, Edrine to warrior. Having another scout can't hurt us.

2950 BC (1) Pottery comes in, research set to iron working at min sci. Luxuries to 10% to keep Istanbul happy. Istanbul changed to granary, due in 6. Forestry should cut this to 4.
Warrior to the west discovers a whale and a cow in the range of orange dot. American settler SSE of Washington moving east, there's a silk there.

2900 BC (2) Edrine produces warrior, starts worker. Forestry finished reveals a bg tile, Granary now due in 2.

IT Americans build 2 cities, one near the silk, one directly northeast of Edrine.

2850 BC (3) Pop a hut to the west (area was already sealed off for exploration by the Americans) and we get ceremonial burial ! The Americans have nothing to offer for it.

2800 BC (4) Istanbul finishes granary, starts spear to protect forthcoming settler. The settler would have come in before size 4. Exploring warrior to the east spots an orange border.

2750 BC (5) We meet the English. They are up alphabet and warrior code on us, as are the Americans. Sell ceremonial burial to the English for 39 gold and then send it and 70 gold to the Americans in exchange for WC. America is now cautious.

IT English start work on the Colossus.

2710 BC (6) Exploring.

2670 BC (7) Istanbul builds spear, starts settler, due in 5. Edrine finishes worker, starts barracks. Luxes turned off due to mp in Istanbul. Edrine worker starts mining the grassland.

2630 BC (8) zzz

2590 BC (9) Gems spotted N of America.

2550 BC (10) Barb kills our warrior near Boston (the eastern american city), attacking across a river. Americans and English now have The Wheel and Iron working. A barb horse is spotted near a barb camp to the North, this means they have HBR too ? We can't afford to buy in either case.

2510 BC (11) We meet the Zulu, who have alphabet and IW. We can't afford a 2-for-1 as Istanbul is set to produce a settler next turn. Also spot a dark blue border. Lux to 10%.

2470 BC (12) Istanbul produces settler, starts spear, luxes off. Spear and settle set off for the tile directly SE of my original blue dot as the original dot was not the river. It does waste a bg tile, but allows us to profit from the wines and brings a bg tile into play for Edrine. The only concern is that it is located suboptimally for defense.

2430 BC (13) We meet the Koreans, who are up by alphabet, wheel, IW and mysticism. We cannot afford to buy any of these.

2390 BC (14) zzz

2350 BC (15) Bursa founded, set to build granary for now. Feel free to veto.

2310 BC (16) Istanbul produces spear, starts settler. Buy the wheel from Korea for 70gp+4gpt, the cheapest price I could get. There are horses just outside of the borders of Istanbul.

2270 BC (17) zzz

2230 BC (18) Americans found Chicago near the cattle to the west. A barb horse kills our warrior in the same region.

2190 BC (19) zzz

2150 BC (20) zzz


I sent the worker from Edrine first to improve its worked tile, then sent it to connect to Bursa and improve the other good tile in range. The worker from Istanbul during my turns first improved a bg tile to the SE of Istanbul, then started a road to Bursa and is now irrigating the wine tile. I irrigated it first because we didn't need the luxury online yet.
There's a settler due in Istanbul next turn; I am uncertain of whether it should go west to claim land there or east to grab the two wines. Long term the wines are probably more valuable.
A possible strategy might be to grab the wines, then the horse and once HBR comes in, grab whatever the Americans build for us to the west.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-2150BC.SAV)

And a look at our current empire (the Koreans are to the north of the Americans, the English to the east):

Bring on the Horsies :hammer:. Good start Jack!

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
Swiftsure

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <==== playing now play 10 turns from this point forward
Borealis (on deck)
Swiftsure

Aggie if you ar ready feel free to grab the game and go tonight :)

Getting a city near the 2 wines to the NE may be our next priority. We can fill in for the horses with the next settler. Edrine should start on vet spears as soon as the barracks completes. I think I would be inclined to leave the granary in blue dot city and use it for a worker farm. Let us the industrious trait to our advantage. Like Rowain and Sirp said getting water to Istanbul should be a priority.

Good luck!

Hotrod

Just finished my turn in Warmonger's delight. I've got time. Got it.

Everything seems OK. The Americans have a super starting location. :(

2110 BC (1) Istanbul: settler->settler. Settler goes to 'white dot'.

IT: The Iroquois start the Oracle. So someone sold our contact with them.

2070 BC (2) The Iroquois have contact with the Chinese and Russians. They also have knowledge of Alphabet, Iron Working and Mysticism. I buy the contacts for 39 gold and 1 gpt. Hiawatha turns polite. China and Russia have nothing to offer. Maybe it would have been better for me to wait for their contact...

IT: Wine is connected

2030 BC (3) Edrine finishes barracks and starts spear.

1990 BC (4) :sleep:

1950 BC (5) :sleep: The AI won't trade.

1910 BC (6) Forest chopped SW of Edrine.

IT: American spear/settler arrive at the double-wine spot. This leaves me no choice: I'm going to settle just north of the game-tile, to have at least one wine in the city border (after culture expansion).

1870 BC (7) Istanbul: settler-> warrior. Edrine: spearman->settler. Iznik founded. Starts granary.

IT: The Koreans have built the Pyramids in Seoul. In a cascade the Iroquois finished the Oracle in Salamanca. The American settler leaves from OUR second wine spot. :lol:

1830 BC (8) :sleep:

IT: Lincoln establishes an embassy. Saves us money.

1790 BC (9) :sleep:

IT: Lincoln offers us to invest in peace. Of course my friend. Take the 20 gold! He replies: 'You've maintained the peace and enriched a friend. Americans DO have a sense of humor. :lol:

1750 BC (10) Settler/spear almost arrived at JM's orange dot.

A worker chops a forest near Edrine (finished in 4). The settler there finishes in 3. Another worker is waiting for orders. Granary in Bursa takes a little while still. We almost have secured our little piece of the world. We could expand a little towards Philadelphia before we settle within our own territory. Maybe even east of Iznik. But an American settler just moved in that direction...

1750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3-1750BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3-1750BC.JPG

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis <===== Playing now
Swiftsure (on deck)

Great timing on the wine city :).

Looks like we only need 2 more settlers to fill in now. Could we produce those in Istanbul and leave Edrine to produce military instead ? Not that I dare press this point with a now officially deity-level player like Aggie :)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans settled in such a way as to steal both wines from Iznik - the PTW AI seems to settle much more agressively than in v1.29.

PS I had to look *very* closely when Iznik was mentioned - for me that makes 2 SGs and a solo game as Ottomans ! :crazyeye:

Originally posted by jack merchant
Looks like we only need 2 more settlers to fill in now. Could we produce those in Istanbul and leave Edrine to produce military instead ? Not that I dare press this point with a now officially deity-level player like Aggie :)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans settled in such a way as to steal both wines from Iznik - the PTW AI seems to settle much more agressively than in v1.29.

PS I had to look *very* closely when Iznik was mentioned - for me that makes 2 SGs and a solo game as Ottomans ! :crazyeye:

Thanks JM, but one deity win is no deity win. I still can learn a lot and feel that my win was largely based on luck...

About settling: I would grab all the land I could get.

About the Ottomans: I doubt that you will confuse this Ottoman game with CG5 :) But we started slowly there as well, remember ;)

Got it; I will play tonight. I'll probably stick to leaving Edrine on the settler- we need to grab as much land as we can, and as long as we don't leave cities empty for too long, the AI will hopefully demand rather than sneak attack. England and America are too likely to grab the wines if we leave them alone. More cities=more cash, and with our current gold in the bank and gpt rate, we don't have enough to upgrade to swords and weather AI tribute demands.

Also- we need culture soon, if we're going to hold onto our cities once we build/capture them. I won't get a chance to do so, but as soon as we discover Iron Working we should go for Literature, IMO.

I agree with borealis, except for the wines: it's a gamble to get to the wines, because an american settler just went that way... But if we get there, maybe we can also get further east... maybe...

1750 BC (0): Looks good- all cities happy, and workers busy.

1725 BC (1): Istanbul builds warrior; starts another. This warrior moves to Edrine to escort the settler there.

(IT): The Americans grab the wine spot- their settler must have moved faster than we expected. We'll fill in instead with our next two settlers.

1700 BC (2): Uskudar founded on orange dot; starts temple. We need the temple to prevent severe cultural problems with Chicago, and if we get Literature first we can always swap it. Iznik swapped to temple as we'll have three cities with granaries to pump workers once the granary at Bursa finishes, and Iznik will need the cultural help against America. Philadelphia already has a temple and we don't want to lose to flips.

(IT): The Iroquois start the Colossus.

1675 BC (3): Edrine builds settler; starts temple- we need it to grow before we can start the worker-pump, and with only 20 turns on the temple it's doable. The settler/warrior pair head for pink dot, as that seems the one most at risk from American settler pairs heading through our territory- the settler at Istanbul will build before we have to worry about losing the horses.

(IT): The English start the Colossus. A stack of English units moves towards Korea- unless that's a settler escort, which could be possible, there might already be an AI-AI war going on.

1650 BC (4): :sleep: (aka warrior/worker actions) No trades are possible without severe cases of shooting self in the foot.

1625 BC (5): The Americans are kindly killing off the barbs near pink dot, which is nice although it means 25 gold for them first.

1600 BC (6): :sleep:

1575 BC (7): Izmit founded on pink dot.

(IT): The Iroquois have stacks of... warriors... heading towards England and Korea.

1550 BC (8): Istanbul builds settler; starts barracks. This can be swapped to temple if we decide to put off war, or have iron problems.

(IT): Americans start The Great Lighthouse.

1525 BC (9): :sleep:

1500 BC (10): Aydin founded on yellow dot near horses; starts barracks (again, can be swapped to temple).

Just a note: Bursa will build a worker every four turns at size 3, if you remember to swap the automatic AI allocation of the third worker from the forest to the unworked grassland tile. The next worker should be sent to connect and develop Uskudar, which needs shields to build a temple there. Iron Working is due in 2 turns. The AI in general is up in tech by Alphabet, Mysticism, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding- Cathy lacks some tech, and has a worker hiding in her capital, so avoid gpt deals with her as she is most likely at war with various opponents. If she's alive by the time we get Iron Working, swap it to her for Horseback Riding if at all possible. Most of the AI probably has Writing, and Abe at least has Map Making. I haven't seen anyone start The Great Library, so it's possible no one has Literature, but depending on the exploration of the continent, they could get it from a hut so beware.

1500 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3_1500BC.zip)

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
Swiftsure <===== Playing now

got it and will play tonight

quick report as very quiet 10 turns

1475bc bursa builds worker,MM bursa to build another worker in 4 as Borealis detailed

1450bc Discover iron working and we have two sources, unfortunately nearly everybody else iron as well. Trade IW to russia for horseback riding and 12gp. start on Myst

1425bc zzzz

1400bc zzzz

1375bc bursa builds worker starts worker. england completes colossus

1350bc zzzz

1325bc istanbul builds barracks starts spearman,edrine builds temple starts spearman. horses are connected.

1300bc zzzzz

1275bc bursa builds worker starts worker

1250bc istanbul builds spearman starts temple. iznik builds temple starts barracks.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-1250bc.SAV

Good to remember for later - the English are in their GA now.

We only have a few cities and haven't a lot of room to expand on our continent. What to do people?

Jump the Americans with horses, I guess. I doubt we're making enough money to do a warrior-sword upgrade and keep even remotely up in tech. Getting horses now should do it be but we'll have to be fast as the window of opportunity closes with the advent of feudalism. But the logistics of moving the troops around mean it must be America.
It's a pity Korea and Russia are around; that devalues the free tech that we get with a new age. I don't understand why we went to mysticism; we could have gone for literature, or don't we have writing yet ? Either way, we cannot attack the Americans and at the same time try to get the GL as we do not have enough cities to build a sufficient military otherwise.
Btw, we don't have to conquer the Americans. Taking 2-3 cities is usually enough to get peace concessions. But we need enough cities to build an FP at the very least.

Russia is almost gone. I believe they only have a settler wandering around, looking at the histograph. That leaves us with Korea. It's early in the game, but when it's time, we should get MA's to get Korea.

I will grab the game and try to play tonight! Just went in HOT2 and LK42 so good timing. I will see about getting some horseys rounded up, maybe a few vet archers to go with them. America should have few vulerable cities at the silk site and the wines site that we could grab and stop as suggested and get some concessions.

hotrod

Originally posted by jack merchant


Either way, we cannot attack the Americans and at the same time try to get the GL as we do not have enough cities to build a sufficient military otherwise.




By "GL" do you mean the Great Library?
If so, forget it! Getting a wonder before the industrial age requires a leader.

Originally posted by LKendter



By "GL" do you mean the Great Library?
If so, forget it! Getting a wonder before the industrial age requires a leader.

I agree that it is very dubious to try to get TGL. But it's not impossible. I played a deity game last week where I got TGL at 390 AD :crazyeye: I suggest that we try, but as soon as an AI also starts building, you know you're too late.

I was referring to that game in even thinking it possible to get the library... In my own game, I took a different approach: I captured it :D Of course, you have to be fortunate enough that someone next door builds it for you. Maybe the English would be so kind now that they are in their GA ?
I'd dispense with the archers and build some spearmen instead to accompany the horses and soak up the counterattack. There is, imho, no advantage for us in building archers.

Good point! I will see how this plays out I will try and get some units for possible strike in the near future, maybe not in my ten.

Hotrod

i agree with JM, archers arnt worth it horsies and spears

And I agree with swiftsure. :p Horsemen upgrade to Sipahi

HOT3

1250 BC (0): Diplocheck reveals we are behind Mysticism, Alphabet, writing and map making at least. And writing opens up to a bunch more techs :(. Anyway buy alphabet from the Iroqouis for 80 gold and World Map. Scout around and by Writing for 165 gold and WM from China.

Diplo check reveals that we are behind: MM, CoL, Philo, Math, and Mystc. and quite possibly polytheism as well. :(.

1225 BC (1): Nothing completes but do a complete diplo check to see if we can afforda any tech. Edrine builds spear starts horseman.

1200 BC (2): Tech still requires gpt to get anything.

1175 BC (3): Bursa builds a worker starts a temple. Aydin build barracks starts spearman. can get mysticism for 84 gold. Buy Mysticism from Iroquios for 71 gold, 1 gpt, and WM. Begin 40 turn research on Lit. Realize that the AI may get it way before us but you never know. Can get it in 27 turns at 50% but that would leave 0 income. Elect for 10%.

1150 BC (4): Can buy Map Making for our 35 gold and lots of gpt, not yet. Sell maps for a little gold and move a few civs from Cautious to polite. Cannot afford any new embassies.

1125 BC (5): Germay starts the Great Lighthouse. Amazingly no one has Lit yet

1100 BC (6): Up lux to 10% for 2 turns to avoid revolts in Istanbul, temple is almost completed.

1075 BC (7): Continue to monitor the AI for lit, no one has it.

1050 BC (8): Istanbul builds temple starts horseman. Aydin builds spear starts another. Drop lux back to 0%. 109 gold with 10+ gpt is the going rate for tech this turn. NO deals.

1025 BC (9): Edrine builds horseman starts another.

1000 BC (10): Chinese start the Great Library - Can they trade me for Lit ??? Lizzy and Abe and the Iroquios have it but Koreans and Zulu dont't. Buy Lit for 120 gold , 4 gpt and WM. Sell lit to Zulu for Territory Map and 40 gold. And to Korea for for Territory Map and 90 gold. Neither would give up techs. Change Uskedur to Library wasting 1 shield but will win a culture battle with Chicago. The Temple in Bursa is whipped for 2 citizens to push out culture before going back to a worker farm.

The Tech situation is a tad better with only lagging by Math, Poly, Map Making, CoL, Philosophy and Korea is Revolting to either Republic or Monarchy as we speak.

A few more horseman are in the que but libraries should be pushed soonish, more for culture than tech, research is at 0%, gaining 19 gpt with 159 gold currently in the bank. Managed to buy, Alphabet, Mysticism, Writing and Lit this round, hopefully without completely breaking the bank. Too bad that Lit was not able to be traded for tech :(.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-1000BC.zip

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <===== Playing now
Aggie (on deck)
Borealis
Swiftsure

Don't worry too much about us being backward. It's just not possible at this point to keep up. This should improve later in the game.

By the way. We still have room for a couple of cities. Why wouldn't we use that?

We can squeeze in 2 more I think to the north. They are boarderline flip chances as Phily has already expanded. It may be better to wait for war with Abe to take 2-3 or his cities due north then fill in the last couple of cities after. We can peal off a settler at Istanbul after the horsey completes.

If we want to settler aggressively to the north now.

Got it. I'll finish CG5 first so people there can take their next turn during the weekend, which is necessary given the length of the turns. Aggie, if you have time, feel free to take this one before me if you have time (and if no-one objects).

I'M sorry. Not at home at the moment. I can play tomorrow at the earliest... So JM, looks like you're up...

no problem; will play tonight after I've sufficiently recovered from CG5 :)

Preturn I don't understand the whip in Bursa - it has no overlap with American cities, so it doesn't need the culture. We could have built a library instead, unless I'm missing something ? The Iros want to sell us their tm for tm+50gp, I sell them our wm for 1 gold instead.

975 BC (1) Everyone and his brother start building the Great Library. Bursa builds temple, starts worker. Uskudar builds library, starts barracks. Izmit builds temple, starts worker (after some consideration). Luxes up to 10% to keep Istanbul happy, this does however drop our income to 13 gpt. Buy Philosophy for wm + 160 gold from the Chinese. I'll try to get CoL next to move us toward Republic.

IT The Germans demand and get tm+18 gp. I hate them.

950 BC (2) Istanbul horse-horse. Aydin spear - horse.

925 BC (3) I am a moron and allow Uskudar to riot. A horse is stationed there to serve as MP until we get something going. Unfortunately, Uskudar is now losing the culture batttle with Chicago. Move another horse to Iznik to prevent it rioting next turn.

IT Chinese start the Great Wall. Koreans start the Hanging Gardens.

900 BC (4) Edrine builds horse, starts another. Izmit builds worker, starts spear. I want to buy CoL but everyone wants all our gold and all our gpt for it. Disband one of our exploring warriors. We'll hit the unit support limit before republic.

IT The Germans establish an embassy with us. The Americans want to trade tm's and us to give them 13 gold in the bargain. Sell them the wm for 1 gold instead.

875 BC (5) Bursa builds worker, starts barracks. Istanbul horse -> horse. Uskudar is now ahead in the culture battle.

IT Chinese extort us for tm+20 gold.

850 BC (6) Iznik builds spear, starts horse.

825 BC (7) Disband the other exploring warrior. It is unable to explore anyuthing else without PO'ing someone anyway.

800 BC (8) zzzz

775 BC (9) Aydin, Edrine horse -> horse.

750 BC (10) zzzz


There's 118 gold and 18 gpt to play with; just remember that we have to pay unit support after the next unit we produce. I didn't run a scientist as it would have been fairly pointless; however, it may be better to start spending before everything is extorted away. We cannot wait much longer with declaring war. We may have to go in with 10-12 horses before the AI comes up with pikemen. Every city we capture means 4 gpt in free unit support until we get republic. I am not too sure about the worker actions; Workers are now bringing irrigation to the game square, however this will only come in useful once we have construction and an aqueduct in Istanbul.

For some reason my browser refuses to locate the upload server so I've e-mailed the save to Aggie. I'll be happy to send it to everyone else if so desired.

The whip in Bursa may have been weed but I felt perhaps wrongly that we needed to claim as much as we could away from the Americans. Whipping a library may have given the same effect but the temple helps the unhappiness caused by the whip.

Also wanted to get that city was going back to worker production ASAP but didn't want to neglect culture either. I felt the culture couldn't wait too long and the benifit of the temple is immediate, the library at zero research means nothing. I took the opportunity to get some culture at that city without losing the focus of that particular town (a worker farm). It will grow back quickly and will be on worker production for some time. Sorry if I wasn't clear what the intent was but thought it was right at the time.

The only other question I have is the need for barracks in every city. Bursa may be specializing in settlers or workers for the next few rounds and a barracks may go to waste. There are 4 others cities IIRC that have barracks and can produce vet units.

I think that the discussion is good and will help out every one in the long run.

Hotrod

Good point. The reason I went with a barracks for Bursa is that if we plan on attacking the Americans, we must build military in all our cities, as otherwise we are never going to have enough units fast enough to pull it off. We now have one worker per city, which is indeed barely sufficient. However, the speed at which Bursa can build workers is affected by the whip for now.
I agree that if you're going to use the whip, a temple is probably worth it more than a library. We probably won't really need libraries until the industrial age for anything other than culture.
In any case, Bursa now has 2 extra bg tiles to work with. Maybe it's a better idea to let it grow a bit and peel off workers just before growth. It can become a pretty productive city.

Well that horse is dead ;). Either way if we are going to war it will probably be soon.

One question on the request for tribute. I know it is normal practice in deity to pay without question early but should we consider the distance the AI is from us before paying? Is it easier to pay the gold than to force them to come from the other side of the continent.

For the record the whip was a judgement call and shouldn't hurt us in the long run. I checked out the save and even at size 4 Bursa remains riot free without lux tax.

How boring would these games be without differences of opion anyway ;). Good round Jack!

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <----- playing
Borealis (on deck)
Swiftsure

Got it.

EDIT: upload works again, here's Jack Merchant's save: 750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-750bc.sav)

Originally posted by hotrod0823
One question on the request for tribute. I know it is normal practice in deity to pay without question early but should we consider the distance the AI is from us before paying? Is it easier to pay the gold than to force them to come from the other side of the continent.

Remeber that the AI can get MA's with others, including those close to us. That's what should be avoided and therefore I think it's better to pay. We don't have enough cash to get MA's intead. If that were the case, I would start are war against Korea now and get MA's with America, England and a few others... It would cripple both Korea and America and twenty turns later we could try to attack America... But, we don't have enough money.

When preparing for war with America, what are our immediate objectives? Currently, they're wonder-building, and if at all possible we should catch them right after they complete them to take them for ourselves. Keep in mind that England and Korea wouldn't mind taking a bite out of Abe as well, and would be good ally partners for a 20-turn war if we can grab enough of the American border cities. Allying with Liz would also mean no MA with her and Abe against us, which could be disastrous. I'm looking at the reported AI behavior and thinking that they've probably run out of space right now, meaning that we'll probably be in a war soon anyway.

Also- where is China, and where are the other AI nations located? I know we're saving cash by trying to get the AI to establish embassies for us, but if we're going to get into a war, we have to make sure that our flanks are covered. Maybe I'm being overly paranoid :scan: but if China or the other unmapped AI nations are a hop & skip across the water in the FOW, we'll have to worry about Abe bribing them into harassing our core. The AI will have enough galleys by now to send, and a few swords landing near our capital could severely damage us by the time we could respond to it.

Borealis has a point, but we just didn't have the money for maps or ambassies. maybe we get the money now after our wine-furs deal with Germany.

We need more military before we can think of attacking. I buy Code of Laws from the Iroquois for 8gpt and 116 gold. The barracks in Bursa and Uskudar are almost finished, so I decide to leave it as it is.

IT: Germany and China go to war.

730 BC (1) Istanbul horsemen->horsemen

IT: China joins the race for Hanging Gardens

710 BC (2) :sleep:

IT: Good news, I think. America declares war on the Chinese. We are not the first to die. The Iroquois killed the Russians. Iroquois also want Haning Gardens. Atlanta finished the Great Lighthouse.

690 BC (3) Bursa and Uskadar finished barracks.Bursa starts worker and Uskadar starts horseman. Lux to 30%.

IT: Cascade to other wonders, now the Lighthouse is finished by America.

670 BC (4) Istanbul, Edrine, Iznik, Aydin: horseman->horseman. Izmit: spearman->worker.

650 BC (5) Bursa: worker->horseman. Lux can go back to 20% now Bursa has one pop less.

IT: England wants t/m and 19 gold. I pay.

630 BC (6) :sleep:

610 BC (7) Bursa grew again: lux to 30%

IT: Grand River, Iroquois finshed the Great Library.

590 BC (8) Istanbul: horseman->horseman.

IT: England and America sign MA against China. Zulu and Germany do the same! Seoul, Korea finished the Hanging Gardens. Shanghai, China gets the Great Wall in the cascade.

570 BC (9) Edrine, Uskadar, Iznik: horsemen->horsemen. 2nd wine hooked up. We're losing money, so I sell the wine. For furs and 66 gold to Germany. Lux bar goes to 0%.

550 BC (10) Bursa Horseman->horseman

I didn't attack. Why? Well I thought we still didn't have enough horsemen and we would be on our own. No-one started Sun Szu yet, but that won't take long anymore. The next player has to make a decision: are we going to war with america and try to grab land, or are we stuck with what we have?

We can get a lot of tech, but not republic. I was waiting for that, but still no-one will sell. Bursa builds worker. It's the city that doesn't allow us to keep the slider at 0% when it grows.

EDIT: who knows, maybe there's a beautiful piece of land just across the ocean that no-one has discovered yet (AI doesn't suicide galleys). But without map-making and galleys we won't know...

550 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-550BC.SAV)

Bursa builds worker. It's the city that doesn't allow us to keep the slider at 0% when it grows.

Yeah I know - told you so! :blush:

Just how many horsemen do we have! If Abe is only protected by spears then now has to be the time before pikes. We can also through in a couple settlers out of Bursa to grab a bit more land aggressively against Abe.

Hotrod

I suspect we may be able to attack about now (do we know where China is yet? Maybe Abe has sent his troops that way). The only concern I have is the trade route. If it runs through America and we declare war, our rep is toast.

Jack,

Very good point about the trade route. Really did think I did good by getting luxuries :(

Got it. I'll check on the trade route, and see what the possibilities are for either a) provoking Abe into declaring himself or b) finding another way to trade. If it turns out we have to wait, then we wait and build a settler or two first- unless there is consensus on breaking a deal, I'd rather not ruin our rep this early on.

I don't think we should break the trade deal if we could avoid it. A busted rep is a tough thing to come back from.

Actually, it doesn't matter if Abe is provoked or not. Anything that breaks our trade route with the Germans will be considered our fault, and destroy our rep. Unfair, but that's how it is. I agree that we need to keep our rep intact - we need to be able to buy stuff with gpt.

Yes, this can be a breaking point in the game.... I learned something yesterday but it won't help us further. We have about 13 turns left from that trade deal and in that time Abe will have pikemen and medieval infantry. :mad:

There's only one thing that gives me some comfort now: Jacks' signature...

I just looked at the save - a possibility if we want to proceed with the plan is to acquire mapmaking asap and build a harbor (probably in Istanbul). There are 2 Korean cities that have harbors already and will likely soon be connected if they aren't already. This might be safer than relying on a land route through America in any case.
The alternative is to wait for knights, but by the time we get those, America might have muskets already. At least, we are in for a challenge here :p

We indeed are in a position to buy Map Making. a harbor is a VERY useful improvement, so there will be no loss. Very good thinking :goodjob: You saved my day, a bit...

From the peanut gallery....

If America is at war with another civ, and that civ is ahead of you in tech, you can probably get them to kick in the tech for an alliance against america....

Regardless of the tech situation, you can probably get China to give you some goodies for attacking America.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
From the peanut gallery....

If America is at war with another civ, and that civ is ahead of you in tech, you can probably get them to kick in the tech for an alliance against america....

Regardless of the tech situation, you can probably get China to give you some goodies for attacking America.

That's a very optimistic point of view. I never had a civ pay me for a MA.... But we can check it out of course.

Status report: I've played a few turns, but I haven't been able to get back to them as I've come down with the local flu going around here- if I don't post them within 8 hours of this post, feel free to skip me and go ahead as that means my fever hasn't gone down. Sorry about the delay, but I wanted to let you all know that I didn't forget about the game.

@Borealis: Take your time, hope you feel better :). Swiftsure is up in HOT2 (not playing until today) and on deck here so if you feel up to it I would just assume wait for your turns as chances are he wouldn't get to this game until tomorrow the earliest.

550 BC (0): Map Making is too expensive right now, at 89 gold + 11 gpt, even from the commercial civs, and no good two-for-one deals exist at the moment. Mao is willing to sell his Territory Map to me for 57 gold, and I take it, noticing that with two different alliances against him, seeing major inroads by/against him could show how the wind is blowing amongst the AI. A large chunk of Chinese territory is revealed, and I now know why the AIs are mad at him- he's probably in, or close to, the lead, and will get his Golden Age as soon as he builds a rider. I see iron, horses, spices, gems, incense, and lots of fertile land over there. Hoping that this is not :smoke:, I buy Liz's TM for 4 gold + 2gpt, and the continental situation near us is revealed: England and China are duking it out for control of the area surrounding a large inland lake, with Shaka blocked off by English expansion. China has plenty of cities that can or will develop harbors, and England has London, its capital, on the ocean near us with a harbor already. I'm going to try to play for increasing our gpt and trade possibilities to get a harbor before we go to war, to keep our reputation safe and avoid an English amphibious invasion.

City check: some cities at size 5 need temples, as with size 6 and temples we can keep our cities happy without luxuries, given the current trade. Uskudar and Aydin are swapped to temples, which Uskudar needs anyway to stop the cultural pressure from Chicago. Edrine and Izmit, both of which will grow to size 7 unhappily otherwise, are MMed for shields- later, when we have enough workers, we can let them grow to 8, add a worker to give it an entertainer and make it happy, etc. Right now, they need to slow down as 10% lux rate = 5gpt. That's too much with our total income now at 12 gpt.

There's an English galley sailing around us, but otherwise we appear to be relatively ignored by the AI. We lack embassies with everyone but Germany and America, but I won't build any unless a promising MA possibility apears.

Examining the Military Advisor, I see that we are paying 13 gpt for unit support right now, and every time we build a unit, we are reducing our income. We have 17 horsemen, with one more to build next turn.

530 BC (1): I MM for trade in cities- every extra gpt counts.

510 BC (2): :sleep:

(IT): The Koreans and the Iroquois start Sistine Chapel, meaning that Theology is probably widespread... Abe will have pikes soon, if he doesn't have them now. Istanbul builds a horse, and starts a Courthouse prebuild for a harbor, which we'll have to grab- we can't wait the ~20 turns for our trade deal to run out.

490 BC (3): Uskudar gets an entertainer, as it is now size 6- its temple will be rushed as soon as it costs 1 citizen rather than 2 to do so.

(IT): The Koreans, Chinese, and Americans start Sun Tzu's Art of War.

470 BC (4): We are buying MM ASAP, as size 12 cities w/pikes vs. horsemen=BAD.

(IT): Germany starts Sun Tzu's.

450 BC (5): :sleep:

(IT): England and China start Sun Tzu's, and Germany starts Sistine. The Iroquois start Sun Tzu's.

430 BC (6): BREAK POINT: I want input on how expensive our reputation is- right now we can buy Map Making for 85 gold + 12 gpt from Korea or the Iroquois, and with Shaka finally in the Medieval Age the price won't drop. However, even with cities switched on Wealth for testing purposes, we are only making 13 gpt right now, and have 91 gold in the bank. Every horseman we make reduces our gpt, and America will have pikes soon. Also, when we go into war, we want to avoid England allying with America, which is definitely possible considering Liz's current land situation.

I'm feverish from the flu, and I don't want to start the war and buy Map Making right now in my current state, as I would probably commit much :smoke:. I'm going to post the save, and someone can pick it up and play 5 to pass on to swiftsure, or swiftsure can pick it up and play 15, but I'm out of it.

Personally, in my feverish state, I would buy MM, build the harbor in Istanbul ASAP, and capture as many American cities as I can before Abe gets pikes widespread. We could buy MM at the cost of one more gpt to keep England out of the war, but that means keeping cities on Wealth to avoid a severe deficit. We just barely could have bought MM at the start of my turn without buying the maps, but would have had to wait for a harbor to be built to start the war, and wouldn't know if a second AI amphibious invasion came. This may have been [pimp], and I apologize for it if so- we may have to delay a 'final war' against Abe, taking one or two cities, extract concessions, and then return with Knights. As it is he's probably well-defended with spearmen, and we have just under 20 horses right now.

We are in a bad position, with many productive, assertive AI nations on the same continent, and no free land to claim. An alliance against China may get us a tech, but also risks Mao grabbing us as an easy target with Riders in a player's turn or two- we'd almost certainly have to pay him to stop the war once we started it, unless the other AI pound on him sufficiently. I don't see that happening.

The upload server is extremely slow, but apparently the download completed so I hope this link works: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3_430BC.sav

Okay will go from here :) Hope you feel better soon.

Swiftsure its up to you play 10 or 15 your choice.

Hotrod

Your feverish thoughts sound quite lucid to me, Borealis ! Hope you feel better soon.

I think we may have to ally with the English against the Chinese to get a discount on MM and keep them from allying with the Americans against us. I think 20 horses are enough to capture towns from pikes; not cities, though. Every town we capture will save us 4 gpt in unit support.
We should go in as soon as the harbor as built, and then let the dice fly high !

Sorry guys but i'm going to have to drop all my SGs for a couple of weeks due to a RL crisis.

Sorry to hear that swiftsure. Hope to see you back soon.

Hotrod <===== playing tonight or tomorrow after HOT2
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis (just played 5)
Swiftsure (out until further notice)

@ Jack: I didn't get to this tonight and most likely will not be able to play tomorrow either. Major SG overload tonight. If you have a slow night and want to grab it just post and let me know. If you don't grab it I will try to get to it tomorrow.

OK, I got it and will play today.

Executive summary: I think we may be in trouble

Preturn I decide to jump in with the English vs the Chinese and buy an embassy in London. England is a republic running 60% science, London is producing 5 spt but has the Colossus.
We sign an MA vs the Chinese and in the deal include Mapmaking for 9 gpt. Change Istanbul to harbour, due in 5. We'll go to war in 5. Edrine and Iznik changed back to horseman production. We now have 37 gold in the bank and no gpt. This had better work....
Change the entertainer in Uskudar to a scientist.

410 BC (1) The people are delighted that something interesting finally happens and expand our palace. Zulu start Sun Tzu.

390 BC (2) I buy the American tm for our tm and 20 gold. I did this because we need to have all sea squares visible for a trade route to be viable. Once the harbour is done, we should be able to trade through Korea. Sell our wm around for 8 gold, as with the completion of the temple in Aydin we are running a 1 gpt deficit.

370 BC (3) Korea and Germany ally vs the Chinese. Edrine horse -> spear

350 BC (4) Iznik spear -> spear. A deal apparently expired as we are now making 6 gpt.

330 BC (5) Istanbul produces harbor, Uskudar temple, Edrine spear. Crap, St. Louis just grew to size 7. It is one of my first targets. The die has been cast.

We declare war on America !

One horse dies and one retreats but we take St. Louis, 6 resisters. 2 horses die and 8 retreat as we fail to take Chicago. Horses vs Pikes in cities ---> tough.

Our cities still have furs so the naval trade route works and our rep is intact.

310 BC (6) Our forces retreat from Chicago in good order and without further losses, no American counterattack yet, but a pike shows up from Miami, presumably to pillage. An MMDI appears N of Bursa. Entertainer hired in Iznik so one spear there can prevent the wines from being pillaged. 8 units are in St. Louis to quell resistance.

290 BC (7) Pike moves on the road to St. Louis. Kill it with a horse. Mini-SOD shows up near St. Louis: 2 pikes, 2 MDI. Move a spear into Iznik; entertainer back to work in Iznik.

270 BC (8) Americans drop off a spear and an archer near Iznik. 3 pikes, a spear and 2 MDI now poised to attack St. Louis. Our horses there counterattack, wounding 1 pike and killing another.
Horses moved next to Chicago again, hopefully to distract the Americans

IT American MDI kills spear in St. Louis, another one dies to a horse (!). There being only horses left, the Americans then attack with a pike, which dies to another horse.

250 BC (9) Horse kills wounded MDI, Bursa grows but remains happy. I decide not to attack Chicago but try to starve it first - it's size 7 with at least 3 pikes.

IT Our spear on the wines near Miami defends succesfully against two MDI's. Americans counter out of Chicago with a longbow.

230 BC (10) Kill 3 MDI, 2 pikes and a longbow around Chicago at the cost of 3 horses. Try to attack Miami but after losing one horse, decide we do not have enough troops. Kill an MDI near Miami. The Americans won't talk to us.

Swordsmen are due next turn from Istanbul and Edrine; change them to horses if you like. The American spear and archer near Iznik are still there; I didn't want to attack them with the terrain in their favour. We probably need to take Miami too for this war to be successful - otherwise we'll lose St. Louis to a flip. However, we don't have enough troops to take it.
America hasn't bought any alliances against us yet, fortunately. Even so, we are not in a good position and may have missed the boat. The only alternative to going to war now would have been to disband our army and buy our way to republic. Even then, we would still have been very much in trouble.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-230BC.sav)

Jack, I think you did what you had to do. We started from a difficult spot and did have no option expect for attack imho. We knew it would be very difficult.

Let's see if we can get out of this.

I have it and will try to play and post by tomorrow night.

230 AD (0): Well the war has begun it was inevitable. I am not concerned with the number of units just a bit on how spread out they are. I will try to form up a stack of horsemen to move on Chicago and I am concerned as well that only 1 horseman is moving on Miami. Set Bursa from "wealth" to spear and MM to max shields to get in 2 turns. Trade Korea our last wines 40 gold and WM for silks and gems.

210 BC (1): Istanbul builds a swords starts horse. Same at Edrine. Bursa changed to sword due in 2. Moving swords toward the Chicago and Miami fronts. Retreat the spreadout horsemen near Chicago.

190 BC (2): Aydin builds sword starts another. Germany starts leos :eek: move new sword north toward Iznik.

170 BC (3): Abe dials us up and wants peace for a mere 20 gold, I consider it but decide on 1 more shot at Miami and Chicago.

150 BC (4): Move on Miami and Capture it, there are many units in the area ready to take it back. Try to take Chicago but it holds all horsemen are wounded and retreat. Rather than lose our gains Make peace with Abe. We get MATH, and peace, Abe gets peace, WM and 21 gold. I will let all current miltary projects complete then switch to Libraries.

130 BC (5): Uskudar builds sword start courthouse. Izmit builds library starts catapult. Aydin builds swords starts library. Change Edrine to settler for 1 more city btween Miami and Stlouis.

110 BC (6): Continue with the infrastructure push. Iznik is corrupt so switch to courthouse, switch Miami to library for some needed culture. Korea and America have an alliance vs. China.

90 BC (7): Istanbul builds library start galley. There are still 3 other civs out there that no one has met yet that may be our key to getting back into the game. Recently China completed the SunZu and every one changed to Leos. Continue moving the settler north.

70 BC (8): Germany starts Copernicus', Trade for tech are all too expensive :(. Germany will sell furs for 140 gold but not worth it now don't need the extra lux. Aydin builds library starts horseman.

50 BC (9): Settler is in position for a new city near Miami and St.Louis. A spear is following. Research continues on republic. Most cities will finish libraries next turn. Only 1 turn remains on our alliance with England vs. China, peace can be made with China. Hopefully now that the libraries are done we can start on researching for ourselves soon. I am afraid that we are way behind in tech.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-50BC.zip

Only played 9 to even up the turns.

Hotrod (just played)
Jack Merchant (swapped)
Aggie <+++++ up now
Borealis (on deck)
swiftsure (out until further notice) any ideas on a replacement??


Hotrod

I got it. I will play today.

EDIT: great job Hotrod :goodjob: We managed to take two american cities, against the odds. We are way behind in tech, but still alive...

EDIT2: I may not be able to play this today, so give pointers if you want to ;)

Great work Hotrod ! I have a feeling we need to sell off the extra wines we now got asap to prevent them from being extorted from us. Also, we'll get back 9 gpt from the mapmaking deal next turn. We should be able to use those wines to draw in another ancient age tech.
Things will get better once we are a republic.

We can couple the extra wines with gold to get a new tech for less. Once we get that extra 9 gold back we have more to work with. Currency may be a good tech to grab next to get some markets going or maybe construction to help with growth. I would steer from Polytheism for now it is no benefit to us.

Once we get republic switch immediately and hope for a short revolution. I think getting some galleys out to possibly suicide may be in order. Astronomy is already learned so they will find the other civs first but if we can by some miracle get there then we may have a shot at getting tech for contact. A very long shot I think.

One other thought may be to loadup some galleys and go at 1 Chinese city with our swordsmen and see if we can get something for peace. Our alliance vs. China is up next turn so we can cancel and make peace without a rep hit but we may want to attempt an attack to see if we can get anything in return.

Preturn: Thanks for the tips. I will attempt suicide galleys, but I don't think that we can get anything from a war with China. I will not get into a fight with them...

IT: Germany want t/m and 27 gold. I've it to them. We can afford war against them, but not against a possible allied force. America might want to use this situation. Germany finishes Leo...

30 BC (1) Tstanbul: Galley->galley. Edrine: lbrary->courthouse. Bursa: library->swordsman. Antalya founded,starts library. We buy currency from Liz for 8 gpt, 87 gold and w/m. Mao wants to make peace for 40 gold and w/m. Just not yet.

IT: Korea finish Copernicus.... :( AND Sistine... :mad:

10 BC (2) :sleep:

IT: The Germans are the first to start Bach.

10 AD (3) Aydin: horseman->harbor. Our first galley goes west.

30 AD (4) Another Galley in Istanbul->marketplace.

IT: Germany and China sign peace

50 AD (5) Bursa: swordsman->courthouse.

70 AD (6) :sleep:

IT: The Koreans are the first to start Smith... :cry:

90 AD (7) Izmit: galley->courthouse. St. Louis: library->courthouse.

IT: America and China sign peace

110 AD (8) Miami: library->courthouse. 1st suicide galley goes west.

130 AD (9) Iznik: courthouse->marketplace. The suicide galley sinks... :(

IT: China wants 40 gold for peace. We are on our own against them, so I accept.

150 AD (10) Uskudar: courthouse->harbor. Couple of forest chops: Antalya is one turn from finishing the libary. Our galley survived and goes further west. A third galley also goes west.

Our lux deal with Korea ends next turn. See what you can do with that... At the moment Construction is very expensive and Republic not for trade. We might wait a turn and see if wines bring Republic on the negotiation table... We need Republic bad.

Two suicide galleys head west. I suggest to send more if those two sink.

150 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-150AD.SAV)

How many turns are on the republic research? It may be worth it to let that finish seeing as we are in it for so many turns already and use the wines to get construction cheap or at least cheaper.

Not really sure is the best right now. The sooner we get out of the age the sooner we at least get a free tech :)

Hotrod

Originally posted by hotrod0823
How many turns are on the republic research? It may be worth it to let that finish seeing as we are in it for so many turns already and use the wines to get construction cheap or at least cheaper.

Good point! We are 12 turns from researching republic. I agree on buying construction when the wine deal expires. Regarding what next? Our best shot is to get to other civs before the rest, like you said...

Got it. I'm going to compare prices for republic when I look at the save- it will probably be better to just finish it, as the AI gives high prices for government tech.

150 AD (0): Diplo check reveals that we can't even buy Republic at current rates- putting all our gold and gpt on the table gets us a 'doubtful' offer result at best. I'm going to wait on buying it, and the next player will have to revolt and deal with anarchy. I notice that Mao has had one city captured by the Koreans since I last played, and another city razed by the English- it seems that the AI is making some headway against him, but as he still has his heartland, and probably Riders by now, we shouldn't count him out. Some cities are MMed to use improved tiles more effectively, and St. Louis is swapped to a temple as we need culture there to stop a flip to Abe.

(IT): We lose one suicide galley.

170 AD (1): We are running research on Republic at 10%, as we can't hurry it without a deficit, and it will be due in 12 turns.

(IT): Renegotiated luxury deal with Wang Kon sends Wines + 243 gold + 6gpt to him for Silks and Construction. We can't get two techs at any price, even forgoing luxuries, and we can't get two luxuries and a tech. I went with the consensus and bought Construction although Polytheism appears to be cheaper, so we can build aqueducts.

190 AD (2): Bursa riots without the extra luxury :blush:, but scrolling ahead stops other size 7 cities from rioting. They get entertainers, as we cannot afford luxury tax right now.

230 AD (4): Antalya's borders expand.

(IT): A lot of American spearmen and swordsmen head back home across England, glimpsed briefly by the residents of Antalya. Our second suicide galley sinks.

250 AD (5): Production of more suicide galleys started in Istanbul.

280 AD (8): (IT): Germany starts Magellan's Voyage. :spank:

290 AD (9):

(IT): I see a Korean galley go in the ocean- they must have Navigation as well.

300 AD (10): Not much happening, but I want the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_300ad.zip) to notice that the wines deal is up with Lizzie in this or the next interturn, and if we can, we want Polytheism with it. Republic is due in 3 turns, and we're making better gpt due to markets in some cities. St. Louis should be whipped to build a temple before we revolt if we can do it at the cost of 1 citizen, and other cities will require careful management with the lux slider.

The situation at 300 AD:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_300ad.JPG

Hotrod (on deck)
Jack Merchant
Aggie <------ Playing now
Borealis (just played)

After all the swapping and skips I think this order is correct.

Aggie played after me, so I think I should actually be up now, or if you want to go with the original turn order, you are up yourself (Aggie played the turn before Borealis)

Your right I will try to get to it tonight

Hotrod<---- playing now
Jack Merchant (on deck)
Aggie
Borealis

Hot3

300 AD (0): I remind myself that any hole can be climbed out of before I even look around. Here goes. Expect an uneventful turn with Republic just 3 turns away. change Bursa entertainer to taxman same goes for Miami.

310 AD (1): Aydin builds market starts aqueduct. Our wines deal to England is up and I contemplate our next deal. Do we need another lux now or should I use the wines to get cheaper techs. England will give up Poly for wines and 8 gpt. I opt for 5gpt and 40 gold lump sum. I don't want to get short during our revolution. We are finally in the middle ages and pick up Monotheism. Forgot this was 1.14 and was hoping for Feudalism.

320 AD (2): Edrine builds market starts granary. Uskudar builds harbor starts aqueduct. Izmit builds courthouse starts aqueduct. Whip the temple in St.Louis.

330 AD (3): Learn Republic and immediately revolt. St. Lousis builds temple start courthouse. Abe is building Shakespeare's Theater. We only drew 4 turns!! Could've been much worse.

360 AD (6): Korea builds Bachs and the many changed to Smiths or Shakes. Notice Zulus lack Theology , will try to buy Theo and trade for something for Shaka.

370 AD (7): The new Rebulic of the Ottomans. Cities require 20% lux, a lone scientist and income of 28 gpt. Germany builds Shakes, starts Newtons. Germany build smiths as well.

380 AD (8): Iznik build market starts library. Income is upto 37 gpt.

390 AD (9): Istanbul builds galley starts aqueduct. No one will trade anything !! :hmmm:.

400 AD (10): Bursa builds Market and set cathedral. Even with 172 gold and making 43 gpt no deals can be made. We may consider now building a few more embassies and eventually having enough gold to steal tech.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_400AD.zip

Nice turn hotrod. Well, we are waaaay behind. I've never been in this situation and I want to learn were this goes to. Are we able to get out of this?

One thing we can surely forget: the Nationalism slingshot...

got it. Expect my turn later today.

Way behind about sums it up. I was hoping to at least get Theology to trade with the Zulu but that was out of the question as well. Thankfully we are a republic now.

How many swords and horsemen are required to take a couple English cities? They look to be the most vulerable. I don't think attacking size 12 American cities is an option with out cannons.

No luck either with our galleys?

Preturn Move two swords fom Antalya to St. Louis to reduce the flip risk. Disband 4 regular warriors that are now no longer needed as MP. All our gold and gpt only brings us up to 'close to a deal' for theology. Speed up the aqueduct in Aydin by 2 turns by working hills instead of grassland (food box will still fill up before completion).

410 AD (1) The Zulu have Theology just when the Korean wines for silks deal came up for renegotiation. Since all known civs now have theology, I buy it anyway from the Koreans. Silks and theology come our way in exchange for wines, 33 gpt and 200 gold. I swap the library in Iznik for a cathedral.

420 AD (2) Taxman hired in St. Louis to prevent it from rioting.

430 AD (3) Yet another suicide galley sinks. I think we would have been better off not to bother with these and have built the aqueduct in Istanbul earlier. Also, the Koreans now have contact with the Japanese and the French. I take a gamble and :
- buy contact with the Japanese for 12 gpt and 50 gold.
- sell the Japanese currency for contacts with the Vikings, the French, and a territory map.
- sell the French currency and construction for monarchy, wm and loose change.
- Sell the Vikings currency for wm+26 gold.
- buy Printing Press from the Iros for all contacts, WM and 70 gold.
- sell Printing Press, all contacts and the WM to the Zulu in exchange for Feudalism.
- sell the Chinese WM + 2 contacts in exchange for WM, furs and 12 gold.
- sell the Americans WM + all contacts for 6 gpt and 138 gold.
- sell the Germans the remaining contact for wm + 19 gold. The Germans are rich.
- sell the Koreans WM + contact with the Vikes for 40 gold.
- sell the English contacts and WM for WM, 5 gpt and 22 gold.
- sell the WM around for 35 gold.

I spend most of the proceeds on embassies with the Koreans, the Chinese and the Zulu. Our new contacts are poor and backward; France is a 2-tile island, they have evidently been at war with the Japanese. This is not good news as we cannot buy in at last-civ prices for the foreseeable future.

440 AD (4) Edrine granary -> cathedral :sleep:

450 AD (5) :sleep:

460 AD (6) I notice we have not hooked up our second iron. Even though nobody needs it, I'm going to hook it up just in case.

470 AD (7) American musket spotted.

480 AD (8) Istanbul, Aydin aqueduct -> cathedral

490 AD (9) The people expand the palace. Americans start Newton's :eek: MM several cities for growth (should have done this before, we have no need for production whatsoever at the moment)

500 AD (10) St. Louis courthouse -> market. The Americans complete Magellan's. I irrigate over some more mines near Iznik and Aydin. I cleared some forests there as well.

Our wines deal with the English expires next turn; see if you can make a deal for Education with them, as the Zulu still lack it. Our current treasury is not enough to buy it. I suggest continuing the irrigation projects until all our cities are size 12.

The English have knights running around and are our best trading partner - I don't know if they have muskets but I would not be surprised.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-500AD.zip)

[dance] :goodjob: Well done Jack! Getting contacts and techs were great that was excellent. At least we aren't last in tech anymore :lol:! Is that a good thing ???

I have recently learned the power of gold. (epic 25) and if we can get a strong economy with markets, all size 12 cities, and lots of gold per turn income then we may be able to buy/scratch and steal our way to the industrial age, the Nationalism slingshot may work after all as long as we can stay ahead of Japan, France and Vikes. Don't research unrequired techs then trade our free tech for the rest. Will it still work?? We'll have to see.

Hotrod

It was a pity epic 25 was v1.21, I'd have loved to play that one.

It would probably have been better if the new contacts had been a little more advanced. Maybe we should just gift them republic to increase their value as trading partners. As it is, they are penniless and drive up tech costs for us.
It's a good thing the Zulu don't have education yet - with some luck we can do a 2for1 to get engineering and chivalry. Alternatively, we might skip chivalry altogether if we can get more gold that way. However, that does mean we will remain defenseless against the Americans.

I think skipping chivalry may be wise just to save gold. Knights are more offensive and I don't think we will be the aggressor in any war until Military tradition. Getting Guns before we get attacked is a must. Lets pray for saltpeter.

I am now right? Got it for tomorrow.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <---- playing now
Borealsi (on deck)
OPEN SPOT

I am NOT interested myself, but is the open slot for another deity novice? Or are you hoping for a vet and trying to dig out of the major tech hole you guys are in.

Do you know anyone with shovel??? :lol:

I did my best to trade in my 10 turns. But the only techs I could get were education for a lot of gpt and engineering for education. In the next 10 turns a couple of deals will expire. We will then have cash to do new trading.

IT: China and Iroquois make peace. Korea finishes Newton.

Turn 1 (510 AD) Bursa: cathedral->horseman. Iznik: cathedral->library. Izmit: aquaduct->harbor. The english want to have everything for Education. I give it: 43 gpt and 241 gold. The Zulu give us Engineering and 3 gold for Educations.... not a great deal... The Vikings gets our republic for future trade...

Turn 2 (520 AD) Uskadar: aquaduct->marketplace.

IT: Germany declares war on the Chinese.

Turn 3 (530 AD) Bursa: horseman->university.

IT: The Iroquois demand tribute: I pay.

Turn 4 (540 AD) ZZZ

Turn 5 (550 AD) ZZZ

IT: Germany wants a tribute: I pay...

Turn 6 (560 AD) Iznik: library->university.

Turn 7 (570 AD) ZZZZ

Turn 8 (580 AD) ZZZZ

Turn 9 (590 AD) Antalya: temple->courthouse. Bursa: university->pikeman.We just do not have enough gpt at the moment to trade tech. My deal in turn one was very expensive... However. It got us two techs.

Turn 10 (600 AD) St. Louis: marketplace->university.

600 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-600AD.SAV)

I'd suggest holding off on building universities, except in cities that are culturally threatened. Each university costs 2 gpt to maintain, and we aren't going to research anything anytime soon. We should buy banking next; we can use the universities as prebuilds as soon as we start looking likely to afford it (the next player should have an extra 33 gpt to play with in the first turn).
It'll be interesting to see whether we can survive this
:D

Got it.

600 AD (0): Diplo check shows that Japan has Chivalry to trade, and lacks both Education and Printing Press. We have 23 turns left on Chivalry currently, and we could make a straight-up trade Chivalry for Education if necessary. I decide to wait to see if Tokugawa is researching it before trading- as if he is going the lower route, we could get something more expensive. If the price for Education drops in the next turn, I'm trading while we can and moving our research to something else. The Vikings, of course, lack tech, but have nothing to trade for.

City Check: Iznik is the only city that has nothing left to build except a university and a colosseum, and it is left on university, while other university builds are swapped to cathedrals, which will do us more good in both culture and happiness. Iznik itself is due to build the university there in 5 turns, and is left to finish the project due to a waste of shields otherwise.

Hmm... we are currently making 24gpt with 20% luxuries, and could make 45gpt with 10% luxuries. Once a few cathedrals complete, we'll be better off, and if necessary, we should even consider colossea if we don't have anything else to build, if that would allow us to drop the tax altogether. I can't do anything right now, but I note this as an option.

(IT): America and Germany sign a military alliance against China. American muskets roam around the edge of our border.

610 AD (1): Bursa pike->pike. Izmit Harbor->Market.

(IT): Renegotiated deal with Wang Kon reveals that we get no tech at this time, but we do get Silks, Gems, and his World Map for Wines. This will allow the lux slider to drop appreciably.

620 AD (2): Edrine Cathedral->pike. Germany starts Universal Suffrage. :eek: Education to Japan for Chivalry, WM, and 4 gold.
Lux tax dropped to 10%. Invention started.

(IT):

630 AD (3): Bursa continues producing pikemen, and will do so until it is noted. We lose our supply of Furs. Invention bought from England, at cheapest price, for 33gpt, 267 gold, and our WM. Research started on Gunpowder with one scientist- we are now making 36gpt. Acquiring this tech is high priority, as if we end up with no saltpeter we are screwed, royally and probably irreversibly. Istanbul gets a clown for a turn to prevent rioting until the cathedral is built.

640 AD (4): Istanbul Cathedral->pike. Edrine keeps building pikes.

650 AD (5): Iznik University->pike. Aydin Cathedral->Courthouse.

(IT): Iroquois and Germany sign a military alliance against China. American units cut across our territory on their way to China. German galleons sail towards China. Mao is screwed if he doesn't get Nationalism soon.

660 AD (6): More cities start producing pikes. Miami Market->Harbor. Uskudar Market->Cathedral.

(IT): Germany and Scandinavia sign an MPP.

670 AD (7): :sleep:

680 AD (8): Our workers are almost done with improving our territory until we get Rails. Pike-producing cities start sending excess pikes to cities not yet done with production. Some spears disbanded into pike production.

(IT): Germany and China sign a peace treaty.

690 AD (9): :sleep:

(IT): Shaka offers me Music Theory for 12 gold and I turn it down, as it isn't worth it. :lol:

700 AD (10): Judgement call for the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_700ad.sav) to make: Mao lacks iron, but will he die in 20 turns and ruin our rep? A straight Iron-for-Gunpowder deal is now finally available, but he's under assault from the other civs. If we're going to do it, we have to do it now, before the AI could finish him off...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_ad700.JPG

Suffrage ? :eek: :cry: At this pace they'll have tanks before we have Sipahi ! I'd take the iron for gunpowder deal - it's not like we have anything to lose at this point....

I got it!

700 AD (0): Before I started playing I was thinking why the heck are we soo far behind. Was there 1 thing that contributed to our lack of tech and getting completely blown away by the AI. We all have enough experience to realize that our tech research will almost always behind in the Ancient times, maybe catchup a bit in the Medieval era and surely by the industrial era. What gives here.

2 thoughts that I have at the moment. Has anyone realized who all our opponents are and what they have in common.

Russia
America
Zulu
Iroquios
England
Vikings (though not a factor in the early tech pace)

I think the only other Expansionist civs are the Mongols and Arabs. Imagine the 6 scouts each popping on average 2 huts each and getting tech 75% of the time (not sure what the true number is for the AI scout). Out of 12 huts the will get 9 techs for free. Sure they may get the same techs. They will have also made contacts very quickly 2 times as fast as we did just based on movement alone. Contacts means trades and trades mean even faster tech pace. And just for good measure they have a leg up on Pottery and early granaries. I don't know if the AI knows the importance of a granary but I would think they have a good idea ;).

It doesn't hurt that 2 other non-expansionist civs (Korea and Germany) are scientific pushing the tech pace even more with free techs and cheap libraries.

Well all I can say is no wonder we are scratching our head going "I know this is Deity but this is ridiculus" At least thats what I was saying.

Okay now my turns.

Pre-turn: Okay I decide to trade the iron to China:

WE GET: Astronomy, furs, Music Theory a ROP and WM

WE GIVE UP: Iron, 43 gold and 5 gpt (my feelingon the gpt vs. straight up gold was if he does get killed I wanted the ROP so I could drop a couple settlers in china to claim some land)

Trade Astronomy to Japan for Gunpowder and 9 gold.

Trade China Saltpeter and 45 gold for Navigation.

Trade Zulu Astronomy and 14 gpt for Banking.

Trade Zulu Navigation, 32 gpt and 199 gold for Chemistry.

Trade Japan Navigation for ivory.

With 2 new lux our lux slider is now at 0% and our income is at 42 gpt despite paying out quite a bit to the Zulus. Also of now the wines and gold deal to England expires next turn. we may get out of the Middle ages soon enough.

Change Istanbul, Bursa, Edrine and Iznik to Banks.

Now I can press enter.

710 AD (1): Now our gpt is up to 86 gpt because the English wines and gold deals have expired. I have extra wines but no takers. England has there own now :(. I want Metallurgy now but can't get it yet. Maybe next turn but it has to be before the zulus as they have Physics and I will trade Metallurgy for Physics.

720 AD (2): Izmit builds market starts Bank. Now for the :smoke: trade wines, 80 gpt :eek:, and 150 gold to China for Metallurgy. Even with everything but the kitchen sink I can't get physics. Its a no go???

730 aD (3): Adyin build courthouse starts bank. Now I can afford Physics, trade Zulu 16gpt, 16 gold and Mettalurgy for Physics. NOw that I have broke the bank it will be quiet trading for a few more turns.

740 AD (4): zzzzz we're still broke.

750 aD (5): Japan demands Chemsitry and I refuse. Dial him up and trade Chemistry for Economics. He has no gold or I would sell him techs.

760 aD (6): St. Louis builds cathedral starts bank. I consider a MPP with America now that they are no longer at war with china. With no gold to speak of decide to hold off for now.

770 AD (7): First Bank completes in Bursa decide to get some muskets built as we don't have the gold for upgrades. Bizzy got caught planting a spy. The bank increase our gpt from 10 to 24gpt. Iznik is at size 12 now and set to zero growth shaving 1 turn off the bank. Decide to sell physics to Japan for 9 gpt, 20 gold an WM.

780 AD (8): Korea and Iroquios start Sufferage. Zulus have Democracy but we need to see what tech they will get next ToG or Magnetism.

790 aD (9): zzzz nothing to report.

800 AD (10): Bursa builds Musket starts another. Iznik builds bank starts musket. Income up to 48 gpt. Antalya builds courthouse starts aqueduct.

The details:

lone scientist on ToG (33) turns away. There is 149 gold in the bank, +48 gpt. 47 gpt more in 3 turns when whatever we were paying to England runs out. We are paying many gpt to the Zulu and to the Chinese. But I was able to pickup Guns, Astronomy, Navigation, Banking, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Music Theory, Physics, Economics and 2 new Luxuries

I think it is worth it!

A few more banks are almost completed and help our bottom line considerably they have to be a priority and I think there are only 2 or 3 cities without a bank started. I would also try to build muskets fresh and forego the upgrades and save the gold for tech deals. At some point soon we may want to end all gpt deals and allow that almost 200 gpt we are paying out add to the bank and fund some covert research projects :).

My goal this round was to play catch up and we are a bit closer but still a bit behind. At least our UU is right around the corner. I think we could trade back for MT after we change eras.

here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-800ad.zip

We can use trades with Either Japan or Zulu to get the last tech, Buy what they don't have then trade the new tech and gold for what they have.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <--- playing now
Aggie
Borealis
OPEN

Originally posted by hotrod0823
We are paying many gpt to the Zulu and to the Chinese. But I was able to pickup Guns, Astronomy, Navigation, Banking, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Music Theory, Physics, Economics and 2 new Luxuries

I think it is worth it!


I think so too. Great turn hotrod! We might even have the Sipahi in time :)

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Wow! A great round... we'll have a fighting chance at least now to get the Sipahi and take out the AI, once we get our gpt back.
Hopefully once we get Sipahi we can go after either America/England and catch up to the AI via pointy stick method. We were unlucky in the other AI civs being mostly expansionist/scientific early on, but having two sources of saltpeter is a lifesaver for us. (I'm assuming we have at least two, given that you traded away one and mentioned building muskets shortly afterwards.)

Wild speculation: When we do get Sipahi, go after Abe first, as he's already Furious with us, and has some nice territory. Then possibly Liz, depending on our military resources. Keeping Korea and the others out of it will be the trick- once we have an attack force, go on a buying spree with gpt to ensure that our creditors stay neutral.

Also, as we get more powerful, try to keep an eye on Germany, as Biz is constantly annoyed at us, and we do not want Deity RoP to mean Panzers rolling across our land. I believe the 'AI attitude' article mentioned that deals every 20 turns help the relationship, and I'm sure Biz would just love to buy maps of the beautiful Ottoman lands at least once in every player's turn. :p

Superb trading, Hotrod :thumbsup: !

Got it.

Executive summary: We are still in it, and on the whole, our fortunes have taken a turn for the better

Preturn Everything looks good. The only change I make is wake up some workers near Izmit and start irrigating some more. That is probably another error we made; not allowing some cities to grow fast enough.

810 AD (1) Edrine builds banks, starts musket. MM it to produce 2 gpt extra for unchanged production time. I renew the wines for silks and gems deal with Korea. They throw in 2 gpt too, but I cannot get a tech. Nevertheless, we need those luxes and the deal is done.
Diplo further reveals the Zulu have military tradition. I'm not going to buy it, it will come along once we trade off our free tech.

820 AD (2) :sleep:

830 AD (3) Bursa musket -> musket. Miami harbor -> temple. Our income jumps to 112 gpt.

840 AD (4) Istanbul bank -university. Iznik musket -> knight (Sipahi in waiting). The Zulu finally have magnetism, so I buy ToG from the Iro's for 440 gp and 70 gpt. ToG and 19 gpt go to the Zulu in exchange for magnetism. I sell Nationalism to the Zulu for Mil Tradition, democracy and 16 gpt, all they had to offer. I had hoped for more but the price for military tradition for us would have been ~90 gpt and we need it anyway, so it wasn't all that bad. Japan has nothing to offer for nationalism.
Bursa and Edrine set to build Sipahi, Edrine and Istanbul set to build cannon. Lone scientist set to research medicine.

IT Germany, Scandinavia declare war on the Chinese.

850 AD (5) :sleep: I sell monotheism to the French for wm + 11 gold out of pity.

IT The Germans complete Universal Suffrage.

860 AD (6) Uskudar cathedral -> bank. Aydin bank -> galleon. My thinking is that we might fill it up with some Sipahi and get a GA against the Chinese once our deals run out. I spend 100 gold to upgrade a pike to a rifle in Uskudar as there is an American cav fortified on the border.

IT Something to keep in mind - the Americans sign an MPP with the Germans. As a consequence, the Americans declare war on the Chinese.

870 AD (7) Edrine Sip - Sip Iznik cannon - Sip

IT Germany signs the English, Japanese and French to alliances against the Chinese. Korea declares war on the Chinese on its own accord. Oh well, we only need them to live for 4 more turns, which is when all our deals will have run out.

880 AD (8) The Chinese have somehow researched steam power before nationalism ! We trade it right away (getting Free artistry in the deal for the sake of completeness). Even better news, we have one coal too, conveniently located near Iznik so we can build the Iron Works! Iznik is swapped straight away and workers begin construction of railroads.

IT Germany signs the Iro's in against the Chinese too.

890 AD (9) :sleep:

900 AD (10) Sell Nationalism to the Japanese for ivory, 29 gpt and 40 gold. Swap Istanbul to worker - we need more of these. I suggest peeling off workers of other size 12 cities with a full foodbox as units complete.

I did not do diplo at the end of the last turn as I didn't want to tie the next players' hands. There is an expired deal with the Chinese on the table, among others. Also, I think there may be a 2for1 available with Communism and Industrialization. The Germans just got Electricity. I'd strongly recommend not getting into any more 20 turn deals with the Chinese as nearly everyone is at war with them.
Use the workers to improve Iznik first, as it is our best chance of snagging ToE. A random plan is to do some more Sipahi upgrade and go after the English to get a GA. We do not have any active deals with them and we cannot go after the Americans before their MPP with the Germans has expired. The Germans are insanely rich and will buy alliances against anyone who gets on the wrong side of them. An alternative is to get an MA and a ROP against the Chinese to trigger the GA which may land us ToE.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-900AD.zip)

Great job guys! I got it. I will play tomorrow.

We may be in great position for a well timed Golden Age. Sip should hold up okay against rifles. We may want to consider a MPP with Germany or America just to keep them out of whatever war we get into.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <---- playing now
Borealis
CivGeneral

Is tere enough room for one more, I am trying to get into Sirp's Deity TDG. I hope this SG would help me improve my chances :).

I am currently Playing a Solo Deity Game at the moment :).

Your up after Borealis !!

Welcome aboard!

Hotrod

Thank you Hotrod :). I hope this would get me into Sirp's Deity TDG. Even If I have to *Grumble* Play a Shaddow Game from Sirp's game *Grumble*

Don't be too concerned about sirp's deity game. You will be surprised how much you will pick just by reading and playing along.

From actualy playing in this SG and Shaddowing Sirp's Deity TDG. I hope in htis SG there would be Stragity Discussions and have Comments be made up :).

Welcome aboard, CivGeneral! Most of the team isn't as long-winded as I am ;) but we do try to discuss strategy and other issues in between turns. Right now, there's not too much to talk about as we're waiting for Sipahi to help us... acquire some room to grow. Later we'll have to decide on when and how to lay the :hammer: down on the AI.

Speculation now that we've climbed to the edge of the pit:

Is it still too early to discuss possible victory conditions? Domination would be difficult, unless we kept Germany out of it, as Panzers are quite annoying. Diplomatic would be an option if we can get the UN, and we can get rid of America, as Abe will hate us forever after invading him. Spaceship would be extremely difficult with our current tech position, even if we get ToE, as Germany will also probably get Rocketry when we jump to the Modern Age. Culture is impossible, and I'd rather not go for conquest instead of domination. Either way, claiming America would be a good idea to start off with, providing us more or less centralized territory, and eliminating a Furious Abe. If we can get to him before he grabs Replaceable Parts, it's doable with enough Sipahi, especially if we bring in cats/cannon to back them up. We'll need the bombardment for the size 12+ cities.

Welcome civgeneral!

Borealis, I would try to go for the diplo win. Even with America I'm not too concerned. Should that fail, then I think anything goes...

Originally posted by Borealis
Welcome aboard, CivGeneral! Most of the team isn't as long-winded as I am ;) but we do try to discuss strategy and other issues in between turns. Right now, there's not too much to talk about as we're waiting for Sipahi to help us... acquire some room to grow. Later we'll have to decide on when and how to lay the :hammer: down on the AI.

Speculation now that we've climbed to the edge of the pit:

Is it still too early to discuss possible victory conditions? Domination would be difficult, unless we kept Germany out of it, as Panzers are quite annoying. Diplomatic would be an option if we can get the UN, and we can get rid of America, as Abe will hate us forever after invading him. Spaceship would be extremely difficult with our current tech position, even if we get ToE, as Germany will also probably get Rocketry when we jump to the Modern Age. Culture is impossible, and I'd rather not go for conquest instead of domination. Either way, claiming America would be a good idea to start off with, providing us more or less centralized territory, and eliminating a Furious Abe. If we can get to him before he grabs Replaceable Parts, it's doable with enough Sipahi, especially if we bring in cats/cannon to back them up. We'll need the bombardment for the size 12+ cities.

Thanks, I have heard many good things about the Sipahi :D. I just hope that Sirp pops in here and checks on us former Sirp Monarch TDG ;) :).

It's never too early to discuss possible/desirable victory conditions :)

I agree on avoiding conquest, as that would just be far too much work.

Domination would not be impossible, as the German territory is quite small and we woulld not be forced to fight the Germans until the very last (after MA, probably). We could start with America, just remember Abe has an MPP with the Germans at the moment. England would be an easier target, and we could build an FP in that direction without a leader (in St. Louis or Antalya for example). On the other hand, their territory isn't quite as juicy as that of the Americans. However, we only have 2 cannon and and 3-4 Sipahi at the moment (not counting about 10 horses that we can upgrade). I very much doubt that we can get at anyone before Rep Parts; for all we know, it might be around already.

The best way to get a GA at the moment is to sign an MA and ROP with the English against the Chinese after our deals expire (if they live long enough for us to get there).

I don't think space would be quite as difficult as you say; however, we will probably have to go to war in order to increase our economic strength for buying/stealing spaceship techs. The big advantage here is that the AI's don't prebuild and we do. Also, the Koreans get a free tech too. We probably won't do our own research even in the modern age - we'll just have to buy/steal it all. In any case, ToE will be crucial to get parity before then and increase our stealing funds.

Diplo: This may be hard as, while we haven't really antagonized anyone other than Abe, no-one else has any grudges against each other either (except for Mao, but he'll be dead by then). If the world hasn't erupted into WW1 before Fission comes around, I don't even know if we can win a vote. We'll have to build it regardless simply to avoid losing.

One thing I just realized from reading RBE1- the Uncanny X-Men (see how you learn from reading other games, CivGeneral ? ;) ) is that if we were to grab ToE and Hoover, the combination would give us a GA as well without having to go to war ! In that case, we would be in an excellent position to grab tanks before the Americans.

Final note: Now that steam is around, I should emphasize that we need far more workers - about 8 more at least. We can always add them back into our cities after hospitals. Also, we may want to try and save up some money so we can rush a factory and coalplant after Iznik is done building the Iron Works.
(All this to reassure Borealis that she is not the only long-winded member of the team :D )

Hmm, Steam. Hmm, We should start by Building a Deasent Railroad Network so that we can quickly move our trops anywhere within out Empire :).

Well, duh :) (as long as Iznik gets improved first)

From reading over the thread again, I think we made one crucial mistake in building the suicide galleys. Those set back the aqueduct in Istanbul by 33 turns in all and robbed us of a sizable amount of gpt. Not that that would have let us completely catch up, but it might have helped us get there earlier.

Maybe Istanbul wasn't the best spot for the ships to be built from but if the others were reachable it would have paid for it. Turns out we didn't get there first but were able to get some benifit of getting contact before some of our local AI. I think we have good shot at catching the others with the help of the IW and ToE is not out of the question.

Who know maybe war will bring a few leaders and finally a FP site of our chosing. Having our GA shortly will be a huge bonus as well.

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Who know maybe war will bring a few leaders and finally a FP site of our chosing.

It is 900 AD and you haven't built the FP?

This is one of the primary reasons you are having trouble in this game. It took me a long time to realize and accept it, but you can't get that going early enough. LK43 has barely started and we have already decided on the location of the FP. Waiting for a leader rushed FP is deity will bury you very deep in the whole.

The last time that I was playing 10 turns for this game, we were about one age behind. And now:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3techno900ad.JPG

I cancel our deal with China and get furs from Germany for 19 gpt. We are not in the position to trade tech now. Germany just doesn't want to give us electricity for even everything we have.

IT: The Americans demand tribute and get the 35 gold.

Turn 1 (910 AD) Istanbul: worker->Sipahi. Aydin: galley->Sipahi. St. Louis: bank->cannon.

I sell steam power to the Zulu for 29 gpt and 44 gold. Even with 154 gpt electricity is not for sale. Germany still has that monopoly.

Turn 2 (920 AD) Izmit: bank->cannon.

We have 248 gpt now. Time to trade, I would say. But Germany stil doesn't want to sell electricity...

Turn 3 (930 AD) Edrine, Bursa: Sipahi->worker.

Our income has grown to 262 gpt. Germany still doesn't want to give us the tech...

Turn 4 (940 AD) Edrine, Bursa: worker-> Sipahi.

Our income drops to 250 gpt: still no trade...

IT: England wants a tribute. Sure.

Turn 5 (950 AD) Miami: temple->cannon. St. Louis: cannon->barracks.

258 gpt. I buy two Chinese wokers for 210 gold. Germany is close to selling us the tech...

IT:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3germanspy.JPG
so off course, I declare war... not

Turn 6 (960 AD) 261 gpt: no techs...

Turn 7 (970 AD) Izmit: cannon->cannon. Antalya: aquaduct->marketplace. 248 gpt: no deals.

Turn 8 (980 AD) Istanbul: Sipahi-> worker.

IT: Korea and China make peace. China has one city left...

Turn 9 (990 AD) Istanbul: worker: Sipahi. Aydin: Sipahi-> cannon. St. Louis: barracks-> Sipahi. Bursa: Sipahi-> Sipahi. Iznik:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3ironworks.JPG

The Sipahi ordered there will be built in two turns!!

237 gpt: Electricity is just too expensive. So I decide to buy communism from Korea for 157 gpt and 2105 gold. England pays Industrialziation and 32 gpt for communism. Japan pays 51 gpt and 80 gold for communism.

Germany and America have Espionage and the Corporation...

Iznik switched to factory (in 4). We make 163 gpt.

IT: Germany destroyed the Chinese...

Turn 10 (1000 AD) Edrine: Sipahi-> factory. We make 172 gpt.

I'll leave it like that. I didn't check the trading options in my last turn. There are a few techs on the table.
We may also think about switching a few Sipahi in the build queues to factories. Imho very important to have them now.
1000 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-1000AD.zip)

Originally posted by LKendter


It is 900 AD and you haven't built the FP?



We can't build the FP - not enough cities.

Yet! :hammer:

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis <---- playing now
CivGeneral

Good Play Aggie,

I hope all of the Deity Players can have a chat on How to advance upward in Tech in Deity :). Hmm, I feel like writing a book on "Deity for Dummies: Edition 1" after I am done Playing Deity about 4 times :).

Got it. I'll try to play sometime tomorrow- I have to unpatch and write up Epic 25.

Lurking here.

You have 10 cities. I believe the OCN for a large map is 12? So you could have just plopped down 2 cities between your other cities, started your FP, then abandoned those 2 cities. Unless you need 1 more than the OCN? If so then just plop 3 down. Of course with such a small number of cities a FP wouldn't help that much, but it would help a little. St. Louis could build it in 17 turns. Or Iznik could build it in 3 turns after the factory is done. Then move the palace after you capture some other cities or something.

Just an idea. Nice job catching up on tech btw. In my current deity game the AI is entering the industrial age in 400AD. :/ I'm not far behind but I wish the tech pace would slow down.

@Shillen: the placement of the extra cities is an excellent idea! Thank you for that. We might think about taking the cities by force now though...

I don't like this plan very much - I'm not sure we even have room to place two extra cities. Thanks for the idea though :)
Iznik should get a coal plant after the factory, then go on a prebuild as soon as medicine shows up. I'm sure Borealis knows what to do though.

I echo Jack's sentiments. I think plopping 2 cities down within our boarders just to allow for a FP build only to abandon them later is on the verge of an exploit and not something we should do. I agree we need a couple more cities and I am almost positive war is in our future. Sip's with a GA and a monster production city for a ToE prebuild and eventual Hoover and we are ready to rock.

A short war to pickup a couple cities to allow the FP, maybe grab some tech via the pointy stick and we are right in the middle of things again. Not a bad situation considering the deep hole we found ourselves in early. ;)

Originally posted by Borealis
Got it. I'll try to play sometime tomorrow- I have to unpatch and write up Epic 25.

Can someone Enlighten me on what an Epic 25 is?

Realms Beyond Civ Epics are games that usually have a varient twist and a specific list of exploits and tactics that may not be used. These games have a unique twist. For example Epic 25 that ended yesterday was an Emperor Level game as Carthage. The goal a space or diplo win. The twist you may do no research EVER. No libraries may be built, no scientist. The scoring is based on wonders that are built, fast builds of commerce based improvements, harbor, markets, banks etc. And the endeding treasury of your empire. There are a few more "rules" but you get the idea.

You can check out that game and others here:

http://realmsbeyond.net/civ

I completed epic 25 with a space victory in 1740 with 60000+ gold. :).

An always war epic just opened and a deity "random" start was just opened last week

Hotrod

CivGeneral wistles
That is a lot of good there, Good job on that :D.

I assume you let the AI Research the Techs for you ;). I should try an Epic game :). BTW, when I am finished with an Epic game, who should I send the save to?

Hmm, waiting on save but Paiently warming up :).

No save to be sent just a posting of a report. The biggest rule is NO SPOILER ever! Wait until report day and share your results thats it.

About the FP problem: This smells entirely like too much of an exploit to me, and I don't like it. However, if the rest of the team decides to do it, I'll abide by that decision.

1000 AD (0): I upgrade two horses to Sipahi; that is all we can afford at the moment, but more will come. We have 10 Sipahi right now, and 10 Horsemen waiting to be upgraded. Upgrades cost 140 gold, and we are making 172gpt, meaning that if we up a horseman every turn, we have 32gpt to play with for shopping without cutting down on that. One catapult is upped to a cannon.

Cannon at Aydin vetoed for a factory, cannon at Izmit vetoed for a barracks, and Antalya MMed to grow while it builds its market as it can handle another citizen and stay happy. At some point, we need to have the 'one scientist' somewhere other than Miami, which is at size 5, leaving many unworked plains tiles. Our cities are happy at size 12, but will need additional hellp in the far future when we acquire Sanitation. :p

Foreign advisor and trade check: The Americans have no coal, and although I'm not about to trade it to them as they are our most likely next target, that's interesting to know. Abe won't have Railroads, which means that he won't be able to instantly ship riflemen over from another city, and have to rely on cavalry. Everyone else either has no extra coal, or has already traded it away. The Corporation and Espionage are widespread, but are too expensive to buy considering that we want Sipahi ASAP. I'm going to try to keep our income to 140gpt or higher to allow us to strike hard, fast. Germany has a monopoly on Electricity, meaning that we have 1-2 turns after me to build up for an attack on America before they get Infantry (assuming Abe has or can get rubber.) I note that the deal with Wang Kon will end in either the interturn or the next one and hit enter.

1010 AD (1): Izmit rax-Sipahi.

(IT): More American troops head home from the ruins of China. Lux deal renewed with Wang Kon as we need to keep our people happy: Wines for Gems, Silks, 7gpt and 2 gold. Getting any tech would put us far under the Sipahi upgrade level.

1020 AD (2): Uskudar Bank->Sipahi. Income jumps to 192gpt.

1030 AD (3): Iznik Factory->Sipahi, producing one every 2 turns. :cool: Miami Cannon->Aqueduct, as once Medicine is finished, Miami needs to grow. After we fulfill the immediate needs of the war effort, we need to get the most out of the cities we have to maximize our income. (Yes, I just wrote up Epic 25... how can you tell? :p ) Wang Kon and Biz have Medicine, but no one else does, and no one else appears to have enough to get it from them. We could get Espionage from Japan right now for Wines and ~40gpt, but I don't think it's worth it as we don't have enough of a gold stockpile to steal tech.

1040 AD (4): Bursa Sipahi->Factory, as with rails getting to this city we'll be able to pump the Sipahi faster later.

(IT): Abe runs his ships around in our sea lane in an attempt to annoy us.

1050 AD (5): Istanbul Sipahi->Factory; Izmit Sipahi->Sipahi.

1060 AD (6): Project Upgrade is finished, with the two elite horsemen remaining with their antiquitated equipment- if we see a spear wandering around, we might have a chance for a leader.
With this in mind, I go tech shopping: Electricity breaks the bank at 233gpt to Hiawatha, but this way we will a) Know when Replaceable Parts happens and b) be ready to buy Atomic Theory if/when we get a leader. It's not going to get any cheaper much sooner, and we're going to get ~150gpt back in a little over 10 turns from Wang Kon. Electricity gets The Corporation + WM from Liz, and Wines + Electricity gets Espionage from Japan. The Corporation gets Spices + WM +16gpt + 103 gold from Zululand.

This is Not Good: Wang Kon has Refining and Steel in addition to Medicine, and Bizmarck has Refining, Steel, Medicine, and Replaceable Parts. Hiawatha has Medicine and Refining. America has Medicine and Refining. The other civs "ain't got nothin," meaning that we'll still have a small window of time to attack America in... Sipahi check is now at 21. America has no gold for upgrades currently. The turn Abe gets Replaceable Parts, we attack, denying him the opportunity to rush/upgrade Infantry.

(IT): Japan demands TM + 26 gold, and I give in as he's paying us gpt currently- I seem to remember that his rep is wrecked with the other AI, and he'd love an excuse to get out of it. 31 gold now is worth keeping the loan payments going.

A lot of American units are visible in the English border... could Abe be planning something? His ships are also fairly frisky.

Shaka wants an MPP. Um, no.

1070 AD: Anatalya is getting a barracks, in case we need to upgrade the units there if Abe sneak attacks. All the units on the borders are one-move, so if he goes, we'll get warning enough to do so.

(IT): America's units on the edge go home, and four cavalry are seen passing through England.

1080 AD: St. Louis Sipahi->Factory, in anticipation of the GA to come. Antalya rax->market, which will build by the time it grows, keeping the city happy.

1090 AD: Iznik Sipahi->Intelligence Agency; we should try to plant a spy before we go to war with Abe, to keep track of his units. This can be vetoed if necessary, but at only 6 turns it's fairly cheap. Izmit Sipahi->Factory.

(IT): We trade maps with Ragnar to keep him happier as per the AI attitude rule about trading every 20 turns.

1100 AD: Edrine Factory->Sipahi. Uskudar Sipahi->Factory.

Bad news:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3_ad1100bn.jpg

We lose our supply of Ivory from Japan, but our cities are still fine with the spices Zululand gave us.

Our current troop reserves + some extra swordsmen not shown:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_ad1100mil.JPG

I suggest that we attack America when we either get (a) a preponderant number of Sipahi... I'd say 30-40 should do it, considering that Abe has plenty of extra, useless defenders for the RNG to plague us with, or (b) Abe gets Replaceable Parts, and we attack him on the same turn to prevent any money spent on infantry upgrades. If Abe takes a while to get Replaceable Parts, we should try planting a spy before we invade- that's what the Intelligence Agency building in Izmit is for. We can do without it, but it would be nice to know how much attrition he has to take. Also, try putting at least one rifle in our coastal cities, as Abe has a lot of spare galleons that he could unload cavalry on us with. Keeping the other AI out of the war should be easy enough if we buy tech with gpt or trading luxuries, although Japan shows signs of wanting to break their deal. They're far enough away that we don't have to worry, but England or Korea would be... difficult to deal with.

The Ottoman Republic in 1100 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1100ad.zip) : http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3_ad1100ov.JPG

Borealis, you did great. Obviously we are too small too keep up the regular way. We will get a new boost from our free tech in the modern age, but that may be too late.

We have to attack within 3 or 4 turns. We need new techs, money and room bad.

CivGeneral: make the best of it ;)

We don't need to worry about the other techs - we need to worry about getting ToE ! The techs from ToE will surely give us all the other techs that we lack. Did we get a coal plant in Iznik ?

If we need more money to buy medicine and Sci Meth, we should trigger our GA right about now.. Then switch Iznik over to a coal plant and with the IW, coal plant and factory added with GA we should beat the Germans to TOE and make out like bandits on our free tech.

Alternatively, we could skip the coal plant -but that means we must trigger our GA the turn before the Intelligence Agency finishes at the latest.

oops - double post.

I didn't check, but Germany may have a monopoly on ToE. Korea will probably get it, if it doesn't have it already, soon, but otherwise it's probably too expensive for the other civs to buy. I don't remember how many turns we have on the massive gpt payments to Korea, but when that runs out we should be able to buy ToE. Iznik does not have a coal plant yet- I always forget to build them, as usually I manage to get Hoover on Emperor level :blush:, but it can easily be swapped to one. My apologies for the :smoke:.

I suggest that before we do this, we investigate or count tiles in Germany's ToE city and note the spt. We should be able to approximately calculate Iznik's possible spt with the coal plant to determine if we have a chance of building it. If not, then we'll have to hope for a quick leader and hand-build or use another leader to build the FP. Remember that the Deity AI gets a substantial shield discount, and by now will have factories, some sort of power plant, and fully developed cities to build its wonders in.

If we can somehow hand-build ToE, then let's do that and build more Sipahi for a few turns, and if we can't, we should go to war immediately. War would probably be better with more Sipahi, and with a rifle or two to defend against cavalry landings, but if we have to do it, we have to do it.

Originally posted by jack merchant
We don't need to worry about the other techs - we need to worry about getting ToE ! The techs from ToE will surely give us all the other techs that we lack.

I wasn't this specific. But I agree with what you say. We must first try to get the tech to build TEO. However, should we fail to get TOE, then war is imho the only option to catch up.

And yes, we want a coal plant in Iznik!

Ive got it, Ill work on it tonight. A GL might just be our ticket to the ToE if an Elite unit is lucky enough to pop one out :).

Originally posted by hotrod0823
No save to be sent just a posting of a report. The biggest rule is NO SPOILER ever! Wait until report day and share your results thats it.

Thanks, Hmm I never played a game that you just send in a report :).

I agree on investigating the German city - but I think that we may be able to handbuild the ToE with IW and GA bonus before the Germans. Even if they have fully developed cities, I don't think they maximize shields like the human player does.
This would require switching to a coal plant now, after which we will probably have 3-4 turns left to use the IA as a prebuild before we have to acquire Sci Meth. I suspect that the extra gpt we get from our Golden Age may be enough to buy into it.

For the Germans to get ToE would be a disaster, as they are already insanely rich, will get Panzer to stop anyone from being able to wage effective war against them and will probably be able to cruise to space or even diplo victories with their tech advantage.

Hotrod (on deck)
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
CivGeneral <---- playing now

Can we get Scientific Method in 4 turns. I think using the prebuild and going for ToE is the way to go if at all possible. Can we sell techs to the other lagging AI to get enough gold to buy SM? Warring with Sip's against rifles shouldn't be too difficult. If our chosen opponent has infantry we are out of luck. We need to move on Abe now and maybe pull Korea or England in to help out and buffer any AI that abe may get to Ally against us. I think a golden age is just what the doctor ordered.

With 20+ sips and cannon support we should be able to grab a couple US cities, get a FP site and make peace for some tech concessions.

Hotrod

Expect a Full report on my turns comming up at around the 6-9pm Time Slot :). I just hope Dave does not pull me into one of his Spacey Adventures in PTW MP again

CivGeneral's 10 Turns

1100AD - Preturn

Anylized the situation of the game

1110AD - Turn 1

Starts preparing for the war agains tthe americans

Gah, the Iroquois demand a Territory map and 39g :s. Crossed my fingersto hope they dont declare war on us and sent Them on there way

Lost our supplies of Furs (Renegotiations)
Traded 19gpt for there furs (Hopefully CT's Trading lessons have payed off :s )

Tried to find some way to get more gold pet turn via Trade
Traded with the zulus.

They gave us WM, 29gpt,and 40g in exchange for Electricity

Alas more worer orders

1120AD - Turn 2

More worker orders, Checked up on the other Civs for Techs. America should be our main consern

1130AD - Turn 3

Same as above
Bursa: Factory -> Sipahi
Edrine: Sipahi

Ohhh, THe Koreans are building the ToE. Ill try to pry a Scientific methoud from them.
*Gasp* The Germans ae trying to spy on us :eeK:

Doubled Check to see if America has any MPP signed and we are good to go.
Upgraded some units on the coast to Rifles.

1140 - Turn 4

Send the units to the front line in preperations for the war against the Americans (Please excuse my Battle style, I tend to build p a good mix of Attackers and Defenders in this game difficulty ). I wonder why we have a couple of outdated units, I should have a word with the Domestic Leader... (Demogame Joke)

1150 - Turn 5

Aydin: Factory -> Sipahi
Iznik: IA -> Sipahi

Continued checking for tech, Tried to plant a spy in the Americans but we dont have enough Gold :/

1160 - Turn 6

Gave workers some orders, Sending the freshly build Sipahi units to the line

1170AD - Turn 7

Gave workers there orders, CHecked up Techs via Diplomacy window

1180AD - Turn 8

Istanbul: Factort -> Stock Exchange

Gave workers RR Orders

1190AD - Turn 9

Edrine: Sipahi -> Stock Exchange
Bursa: Sipahi
Aydin: Sipahi -> Coal Plant
More RR Orders to Workers

1200AD - Turn 10

World News: Iroquois Declares war on the Germans
Couple of RR orders for the workers
Good news, we have an agent in washington

End of 10 Turns.

I currently have it on the road to Scientific Method. I have the troops in position ready to pounce now. I was not feeling to sure on declaring war against the Americans due to the delay, since I play on a Cautious additude. And I request a Tip or Advice on not to be so cautious in this level :s. Hopefully my next round will be better :) and less hesitant on Declaring war :s.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3_ad1200.zip (Hot3 1200AD Save)

I've got it!

Good Luck Hotrod :) :thumbsup:

Just wondering... does Abe have Replaceable Parts (Infantry) yet?

Well soon see ;). I will finish up a couple 1.21 game then get to this tomorrow night.

Well, I haven't seen the save yet, but 10 turns of delay for TeO makes me wonder if we haven't missed the boat. The Germans are well on their way now :(

Did you investigate the German city CG? If so, how long before they are ready?

CivGeneral, did you even read our comments above ? Say, about the need to investigate the German city building TOE, to get either a coal plant in Iznik or get scientific method before the Intelligence Agency finished and to get our Golden Age quick so that we could get ToE ? Do you know what a prebuild is ?
Reading any deity-level SG here (with the exception of RBP6 of course :) ), particularly this one, should have impressed on you how it is necessary to throw everything but the kitchen sink at getting the Theory of Evolution. All this strategy discussion here is not just to educate ourselves, it's also to decide as a team how to play the game on hand ! Now to be cautious is all well and good, but this was precisely the worst possible time for being cautious.
Now, we'll have to pray for a leader to get ToE in time, but do you know how likely that is ? We aren't militaristic so we will have fewer elite units and we obviously don't have the Heroic Epic. Plus Abe will have infantry soon, if he doesn't already have them, which means that the survivability of our Sipahi is diddly squat without adequate artillery support ( speaking of which, did you build any artillery ? I can't tell from the report).
About the tribute demand, it is possible to give in, you know ! Given the AI tendency to buying alliances, a war with the Iroquis could have turned out far more expensively than the meagre 39 gold they asked for. At this or maybe even any other stage in a deity game, losing a few gold to avoid a war is far more important than proudly telling more powerful countries to take a hike.

With all your demogame experience, from this showing I am almost beginning to wonder if you have actually won a solo emperor game. And deity is that much more difficult again.

Oh, and your upload didn't work. The upload server doesn't accept filenames with spaces in them.

Jack, very well said.

I got my wrong leg out of the bed first this morning ;)

As soon as this SG is finished, I will play from 1100 AD myself to see if we would have been able to succeed in our initial plan.

Now we have to consider our backup plan. Do we have one? Well obviously we have to attack America to grab land, be able to build a FP and get some tech from the Yanks. But then, anyone with suggestions?

I'm going to do the same thing, I think.

Supposing the Germans were to grab ToE, we would need to make sure that their lands never saw peace again. Declare war (or accept getting caught stealing tech) against them, get everyone and anyone into MA's against them and drop them into communism. Then polish off the Americans in a second war (the first one for the FP is indeed inevitable).
Then, dogpile on other civs as needed and make sure we have a running prebuild for the UN once that draws near. Alternatively, get the UN but don't hold a vote and exact bloody revenge upon anyone who ever had the temerity to demand tribute from us.

We should be able to stop the Germans from getting Panzers if we get the war going in time.

Just a note that I will be out of town from next Tuesday night until Thursday afternoon- I'm not sure if this will affect the play order at all, but if it does feel free to swap me around so that play can continue.

I think Aggie and Jack got a few things out in the open and I haven't had the opportunity to check the game out yet but I think I already know that we are at least 15 turns behind Germany for ToE and that with a GA, IW and Coal plant may not be enough.

Getting SM will be a priority and praying for a GL. NOT the best situation. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the IA completed before we even had a shot at SM. Buy in at 2nd or even 3rd may not have been in the cards. Our bank just is not strong enough due to our lack of cities. More cities more income.

We all realize the pressure to get ToE and it was important for everyone to be on the same page. What's done is done and if you tried and failed so be it. NOT to try is much worse. This is a team game and requires a team approach. All is not lost we can get out of this just not too sure how.

We may become the peaceful UN loving nation that the AI just loves. Not the most desireable or difficult vicotries but it is still on the table as is space. On our side though is our UU. We have by far the best UU of the bunch for this time period up until Panzers roll out. Sips can take out infantry we have to pray for rubber to defend our current cities and our new American cities (did I say that :satan: ).

Jack and Aggie go ahead and shadow those turns but please try not to share your info until I post my 10 sometime tonight or tomorrow. I understand your concerns and I share them but based on the reports there just isn't enough info to make any claims one way or the other.

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Jack and Aggie go ahead and shadow those turns but please try not to share your info until I post my 10 sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Hotrod, it's a Succession Game. I'm only going to play after we finish this.

Fair enough

The IA is already finished as per CivGen's report (note the planting of spies). I assumed the 'general' hadn't investigated the German city building ToE because, well, such information would be useful to include in a report ! My beef with his turn is particularly that in our discussion before his turn, more than enough information/ideas were provided to form an effective plan for getting ToE, none of which appears to have been put into action.

I didn't look at the save either as it wasn't in the uploads folder when I checked, which would make it rather hard for you to play your turns ;) Like Aggie, I'll only shadow after completion of the game.

I think any victory condition except culture is still on the table provided we manage to get out of the hole we are once again into. I would be *very* surprised if we turned out to have rubber though. One bit of good news from CivG's report is the Iro's declaring on the Germans -we need more wars happening to be able to catch up. Perhaps we can organize a grand coalition against the Germans now.

On edit, the save is there. Only the link was broken. I'll look later, but I'm busy with GOTM18 now.

I had a look at the save (still to be downloaded directly from the file upload)

- We have no coal plant in Iznik
- We have 36 Sipahi
- We planted a spy in America
- America has no infantry and 12 cavalry, 64 riflemen (no attacking force)
- We have no money to investigate Moscow, the German city building TeO.

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Sips can take out infantry we have to pray for rubber to defend our current cities and our new American cities (did I say that :satan: ).

I think you just did :mischief:

1200 AD (0): by popular demand change Iznik to coal plant due in 2 turns. Now for the fun! Attack and capture, Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia we have our Golden Age. and draw 280 gpt. Ask England to join our cause for a mere 25gpt and our 16 gold.

IBNT: Lose quite a few units in counters :(.

1210 AD (1): Edrine builds sipahi starts another. Bursa Sipahi starts another. Iznik builds coal plant starts sipahi may change to palace if I can get Medicine this turn in trades. Miami builds duct starts rifle. Our fate is sealed MOSCOW COMPLETES ToE !!! and we don't even have Medicine.

Reup our wines for gems deal with Korea. Trade Iroquios 246 gold and 239gpt for Rep.Parts. Trade Shaka Rep Parts for medicine and wM. Trade Rep Parts to Lizzy for Sanitation, incences 14gpt and 40 gold. Trade to Japan for Ivory, WM 26gpt and 30 gold. We Have rubber, change a few cities to infantry.

1220 AD (2): Move on New York with 5 sip but fail to take the city.

1230 AD (3): Move on New york with 3 new sip but no dice. Wounded retreat to rest up for a push in a few more turns. Completed Infantry fill in on the boarder cities. Begin a new wave of Sipahi. We have extra rubber but no one needs it except for abe :D.

1240 AD (4): Moving Sipahi to Chicago to restup and take New York next turn. The counter from Abe is less and less. Still no trades, we are due to get some 233 gpt back in 2 more turns from the Iroquios. Virtually everyone is at war with someone hopefully they all will fall into Communism. Infact check show Abe is revolting now. He is down to 43 rifles and 3 cavs and a handful of muskets.

1250 AD (5): Capture New York and build rails to the city move all units into the city for flip suppression. Abe will talk peace but won't give any thing up and we still have 16 turns on our alliance with England.

1255 AD (6): Reup our spices deal with shaka for salpeter and 30 gold. Capture Seattle. Continue to move obosolete units for flip surpression.

1260 AD (7): A few intantry complete start a few new Sipahi. Oh and by the way Germany started HOOVER. Buy Refining from Korea for 600 gold and 180 gpt. Trade Refining and 30gpt to Zulu for steel. Trade Japan wines, 80 gpt and 215 gold for Scientific method and Oil. Trade Metalurgy to Vikes for dyes.

1265 AD (8): Move Sipahi to an intermediate Mountain to strike Washinton next turn.

1270 AD (9): With all the activity around Washington decide to bring up 4 more sipahi and will attack next turn. Hope the Mountain will help with any counter attack from Abe.

1275 AD (10): England made peace with Abe we are free to do as we wish. I will push one time for Washington then make peace as WW is starting to hit. Attack Washington and kill or wound 4-5 rifles but fail to take the city with 12 sipahi. Dial up Abe and make peace for a worker. He has no gold and won't give up any cities. Everyone is happy now and we should see a good boost in gpt.

Okay: Phily looks like a good FP site. I am researching AT at min Science but truely the only way is to buy techs. We are 10 turns into the Golden Age and have been paying out a lot of gold. I think every unit Abe has is sitting outside of Boston. That was the main reason I made peace. I started on mostly infrasture on the last turn, getting hospitals online should help with the money situation. My concern is the Golden age will end and we will not be able to make our gpt payments. There is 11 turns on the Iroquios gpt deal.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1275ad.zip

Our new lands:
http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/hot3_1275ad.JPG

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <--- playing now
Aggie
Borealis
CivGeneral

@Jack: Sorry I didn't leave you any war action I didn't like the looks of the SoD that is sitting outside of Boston and we really need to get those hospitals online to start generating some real gold.

One other thing I didn't mention in my report but is rather important. The whole world is at war and chosing sides. Germany vs. Iroquios and whomever they can drag in to it.

There obviously wasn't another option than to make peace with 6 Sipahi left.

What a luck. We have two rubber [party] .

We are not beat yet! Think about the free tech we get in the modern age :) Germany is by far the most advanced civ, but remember that Germany and the Iro's can't trade with everyone. The others are only slightly ahead.
By the way... AFAIK TeO triggered Germany's Golden Age :( (having Leo and TeO).

Yeah I kinda pushed it a bit too hard on the Sipahi. There defense is not good enough to hold there own out in the open. I lost a few when I attacked New York but failed to take it the first time, same goes with Washington. Then there were the loses actually during the battles. :(. I think another buildup and moving on England with in the next 10-15 turns is not out of the question. She has home grown oil not too far north of St. Louis and everyone has already started piling on her. I don't think there is any civ besides us that is not involved in a war. The other good thing is that we have all 8 lux via trades.

Just checked it out and they built SunZu, Leos, Newton's, Sufferage, ToE and are now working on Hoover. Not to mention they have 32000 gold too.

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Just checked it out and they built SunZu, Leos, Newton's, Sufferage, ToE and are now working on Hoover. Not to mention they have 32000 gold too.

Yes, we shouldn't underestimate them :p :help: :cringe: :undecide: :(

Got it. Expect my turns either late tonight or tomorrow - I'll be away for most of the day. Since the Germans got Newton's too, their GA should already have been triggered when they got that, not now.

Oh, and great work on the trading Hotrod !

Inherited turn: Remove all the cannon from the formerly American cities and move them to Bursa (cannons don't act as MP). American cities all put on a starvation diet and production swapped to libraries where needed. We have no means to take back the cities that flip, so we need to reduce the odds of flipping. Philadelphia swapped to granary to build it back up again quickly.

1280 AD (1) Izmit finishes Sipahi, starts hospital. Aydin finishes hospital, starts stock exchange. We can build the Wall Street, which I will do in Iznik. Our furs deal ends; we don't need furs right now so I'll hold off on renewing it. The Iro's suddenly lack iron - since we are at parity with them I sell it for 1160 gold. I plant a spy in Berlin, but we don't have enough money to attempt even an immediate tech steal.

1285 AD (2) Edrine Hospital - Stock Exchange. Philadelphia granary - Forbidden Palace. Bursa hospital - stock exchange. We can now build the Battlefield Medicine. It is very important that we don't as we need it as a prebuild fallback along with the palace to get the UN. Chicago library - market. Iznik stock exchange - Wall street. It is producing a delicious 114 shields per turn and could have built ToE in 6 turns ! The people expand the palace.

1290 AD (3) Istanbul hospital - Sipahi. Seattle library - temple.

IT The Koreans start the Hoover Dam in Seoul (the Germans are building it in Berlin). Since only Korea and Germany have atomic theory and electronics, our chances of buying in and beating them to it is next to negligible.

1295 AD (3) Aydin Stock exchange - artillery. St. Louis hospital - stock exchange. Continue starving of American cities.

IT Germany declares war on America.

1300 AD (4) Istanbul sipahi, starts another. New York market - temple. Boston university -cathedral. Bursa stock exchange - infantry. Iznik Wall Street -granary. Uskudar hospital - stock exchange.
We are now making 298 gpt, but will have to continue paying out 290 gpt for 6 turns after our GA ends. A payment of 239 gpt to the Iro's runs out at the end of the GA. Our income went up by 200 gpt at the start of the GA - with stock exchanges and wall street built, it will probably fall by somewhat less at the end of it. That means a little over ~100 gpt should be available to do deals with right now, along with the 1840 gold in the bank.
Germany, Korea and Japan have atomic theory and combustion, all the others lack both. The Zulu have 500+ gold in the bank, so I assume they'll get either one of the techs, at which point we can get the other for a 2fer1.

IT Japan starts Hoover Dam.

1305 AD (5) Several cities start Sipahi as infrastructure completes. I hope to gather enough for a quick strike against Coventry, which has coal, oil and saltpeter. Our ability to build railroads disappears when the iron near Iznik runs out ! Of course we are selling the now no longer surplus iron, and we just have to do without for ourselves.

IT America wants an MPP, Japan and Iroquis sign peace.

1310 AD (6) :sleep: 9 cannon upgraded to artillery for 720 gold. We'll have 13 Sipahi next turn, should be enough to take on the English.

IT Iroquis and Korea sign peace, Korea wants an MPP which I decline. The Germans complete the Hoover Dam.

1315 AD (7) I decide to plant a spy in Korea to see what they're capable of - it costs us our supply of gems, but we get 180 gpt back :D We are now at war with the Koreans. I then buy combustion from the Germans for an alliance vs the English, 1600 gold and 185 gpt (Expensive, but what can you do ? Chances are the Germans will make peace with the English before the 20 turns have run out. Also, the Germans have Panzer :eek: ) The Zulu get combustion for 450 gold, a wm and an alliance against the Koreans - this to make it less likely for them to buy alliances against us.
We take Coventry at the cost of one sipahi and now have a native source of oil. Our artillery destroys some infrastructure in York, but we can't go in yet.

1320 AD (8) Bombardment of York is singularly ineffective. Izmit riots - I had overlooked it is lacking a cathedral. Otherwise, our happiness situation is fine.

IT Zulus want an MPP - no thanks.

1325 AD (9) Several cities start universities - we may need them eventually. More military produced in other cities. Our Sipahi kill a Korean cav near Coventry. More York infrastructure destroyed. Hurry the library in Coventry.

1330 AD (10) Our GA ends. Initially, we are at -51gpt, but then, deals end to give us +162 gpt. I am forced to renegotiate our ivory deal with Japan to pay them 30gpt.
We capture York, killing 3 infantry and a cavalry army. The Germans are blocking the way to getting our infantry in though.

I knew there was a chance that the Koreans would declare war when I tried to plant the spy, but I didn't expect them to. It probably doesn't hurt us all that much - I am more concerned that it is verging on the exploitative as it did get us out from under a 180gpt payment for 9 more turns.
The English are no threat as the Germans pillaged them to death. No English counterattack has materialized. Our alliance with the Germans wasn't worth all that much though - 5gpt at most.
We are now making 134 gpt but will get another 110 gpt back in 6 turns. Also, the FP finishes in 3 and will increase our income as the American cities grow (hint: build granaries where they don't already have them).
Feel free to veto the universities and build troops instead. From here on out, we need infantry and artillery more than Sipahi, although we could do with a few more of those as well.


the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1330AD.zip)

Well done Jack and you note about Battlefield Med. is critical.

Our empire is growing. Soon we will be able to go back at Abe and finish him off for good. Not sure about the universities. Maybe would opt for units our defensive units were poor and very expensive to upgrade but I was trying to use them for flip suppression. The cannon was not for flip suppression just for a bombardment unit.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <----- up now
Borealis (out until Tuesday)
CivGeneral

Make sure we are all on the same page. Continue war with England but do not break any Alliances if at all possible. IF we HaVE to go for a diplo win our rep will be the difference.

Planting a spy always has riskes. Doing it once an failing too bad, they declare War tough luck. The fact that it was to our benefit is not the issue. IF we failed the first time and Korea didn't declare and you continue to try until they do declare that is an exploit. I think Lee details that out as a :nono: in the LK games. Your intention was not to break the deal but to get info. :goodjob: over all a good round!

Well done Jack! Got it for tomorrow night or monday night...

EDIT: Jack, I don't think that planting a spy like you did was an exploit. It helped us very much though...

Just a note... I will be out as of Tuesday night, not until then. I should be able to pick it up after Aggie.

Whoops my bad :blush:! no problem Borealis

America has 25 military units left!! This is obviously a nice target, but they're are the neighbours of Korea! I'm concerned about that. Plus we still have a 10 turn peace deal with them.
We are the only democratic nation on a communist continent.

IT: Korean ironclad bombard our coastline.

Turn 1 (1335 AD)

Domestic:
-Istanbul: Sipahi->infantry
-Iznik: artillery->infantry
-Izmit: cathedral->artillery
-Aydin: artillery->infantry
-Coventry and York are starved. The libary in york is rushed.

Economic:
-we make 136 gpt.
-We are able to buy 13 workers from the Iroquois!!! Would cost us 47 gpt and 620 gold though...
-seriously though: we can't deal at the moment.

Defense:
-The Koreans refuse to talk to us.
-England would give us 53 gold and 3 workers for peace. No deal.

IT:
-America and Japan sign a MA vs England. The puny Americans want a piece of the English ???
-Germany and the Zulu's sign peace.
-The Iroquois get our wm for 7 gold and wm.
-A Korean battleship approaches our coast. We win a battle vs a Korean infantry unit.

Turn 2 (1340 AD)

Domestic:
-York: libary->granary
-Edrine: universtury->infantry
-Philidelphia: FP->University
-Bursa: artillery->infantry
-Chicago: marketplace->harbor
-Iznik: Infantry->infantry

Economic:
-Our income jumps to 211 gpt
-We still can't trade, despite our higher income.

Defense:
-Our troops approach London.

IT: The Koreans are our neighbours now! They start to attack our Sipahi near York.

Turn 3 (1345 AD)

Domestic:
-Boston: catherdral->granaray
-Iznik: infantry->infantry
-Uskudar: university->infantry
-Aydin: infantry->infantry
-St. Louis: universtiry->coal plant

Economic:
-We make 230gpt now
-Trade is next to impossible at these prices

Defense:
-Artillery attack on Korean Cavalry.
-Artillery attack on London reduces the city's size to 7.

IT: Japan and Germany join forces vs the Iroquois. Scandinavia declares war on America.
Korea keeps comming with a few units. Still not too frightening.

Turn 4 (1350 AD)

Domestic:
-Istanbul, Edrine, Bursa, Iznik: infantry->sipahi. We need attacking units bad.
-Izmit: artillery->stock exchange

Economic:
-We make 257 gpt now.
-The Germans want 230 gpt and 1000 gold for mas production, but I wait to get flight for a 2fer1

Defense:
-continue with atrillery attack on London and the Korean forces.

IT:
-The Zulu and Japan make peace.

Turn 5 (1355 AD)

Domestic:
-New York, Miami: granary->cathedral
-Aydin: Sipahi->sipahi

Economic:
-We make 249 gpt
-Next turn will give us extra cash per turn

Defense:
-nothing special

IT:
-Big news: Korea and America agree to go to war vs Germany!
-Korea and America are going also join vs the Iroquois.
-Re-negotiation of our deal with the Zulu: spices for saltpeter and 120 gold.

Turn 6 (1360 D)

Domestic:
-Philadelphia: universtiy->temple
-Bursa, Iznik: Sipahi->sipahi

Economic:
-We make 361 gpt
-We buy Flight from Japan for 241 gpt, 1428 gold and wines
-The Zulu give us Mass Production for Flight
-The Iroquois give us 567 gold and 10gpt for flight
-The Germans have Amphibious War and oviously they also have Motorized Transport
-The Vikings pay 23 gpt, dyes and 30 gold for steam power
-After all the deals we still make 122 gpt

Defense:
-I establish an embassy in Kyoto for 200 gold
-Artillery atack on London

Turn 7 (1365 AD)

Domestic
- Istanbul, Edrine, Uskadar, Aydin: Sipahi->infantry. Boston: granary->artillery.

Economic:
-We make 145 gpt
-Japan entered the modern age. We could be there with them if we only had.......
-No trade possible

Defense:
-London captured.

Turn 8 (1370 AD)

Domestic:
-Bursa, Iznik: Sipahi->artillery
-St. Louis: coal plant->artillery

Economic:
-We make 1521 gpt

Defense:
-Dover captured without losses. I don't raze the cities to avoid rep hits.

Turn 9 (1375 AD)

Domestic:
-Edrine, Aydin: Sipahi->artillery
-Iznik: artillery->infantry
-Antalya: stock enxchange->cathedral

Economic:
-We make 174 gpt

Defense:
-troops prepare siege of Canterbury and Nottingham

IT:
-Germany and England make peace. That MA doesn't tie our hands anymore.
-Two Korean cavalry units land south of Iznik

Turn 10 (1380 AD)

Domestic:
-Istanbul: commercial dock
-Philly: temple->cathedral
-Bursa: artillery->Sipahi
-Seattle: granary->harbor

Economic:
-we make 381 gpt

Defense:
-Canterbuury captured with some losses.

I stop here...

We have the possibility to make peace with the English now.
Also our peace deal with the Americans expired this turn.
We are allowed to attack them without getting a rep hiy.
Considering that other nations are also at war, we could make money by joining them with a MA.

We can buy tech now with our income and I strongly recommend to only buy non-dead-end techs.
Japan is the tech leader now, but didn't start the UN yet.1380 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-1380AD.zip)

Got it. I'm feasting right now so it may be later in the cycle, depending on how much RL cooperates.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis <--- playing now
CivGeneral (on deck)

Nice turn Aggie. One question are we in any position to self research at all?? Our next tech will gain two correct?? Maybe life will be good and the RNG will give us Fission. This is the time I wish we were on 1.21 :).

All is not lost as long as the others are warring we have options.

Alas, we are not in the position to research ourselves. I tried to up the slider, but it didn't speed science enough AFAIK.

Everyone is at war, except Japan. They are clearly leading in technology and are our biggest threat at the moment. They did that very quickly indeed...

Have you thought about stealing techs? You're paying well over 6K/tech at this point. Usually, you can steal a tech for about 3K. There's a big difference there. You can tech about twice as fast using steal as buying once the Industrial Age hits.

If you don't have the cash, wait a few turns. With gpt in the 400 range, it doesn't take long to build up the cash necessary for a safe steal, even keeping 1000 in the bank for interest. When you always spend 250gpt as soon as your income bounces, yes, it is very difficult to build up the requisite cash. But don't spend it immediately....that would be my suggestion.

Arathorn

@Arathorn: you make a very good point. Thanks for that. However, we are afraid to do so, because of the chance of being caught. You then not only lose money, but also risk war. War vs Japan, being on a different island, wouldn't be too bad. But still. We lose a lot of money.

Surprisingly a safe steal is extremely effective, I safely stole 4-5 techs at least, missed 2 times but didn't cause a war. I had good luck in Epic 25. But then I also had loads of cash. Patience is the key for the tech steals gaining enough gold to make the try. Aggie is correct a steal that fails can hurt 2 fold, lose the cash and cause a war. It is possible to miss a tech and go undetected but you still lose the cash.

If we are holding out for a diplo win a tech steal (if we get caught) may also kill our rep. The benefit of a tech steal is evident in that we payed gpt to Korea, tried to spy, got caught and suddenly they declared war. This may verge apon exploitive benefit to the bottom line.

This is similar to Moonsingers approach of paying huge gpt and daring the AI to attack.

In CG5, I had 2 safe steal attempts fail in a row (there were 4 turns in between). I did plant the spy in Korea partly to facilitate later steal attempts, too. But if we start stealing, we better be prepared for the consequences .
It won't hurt our rep though if people declare war on us for failed steal attempts. It would only hurt if we declared war to break a deal. If the other country declares, they break the deal. What it will mess up is their attitude.

Now that the UN is mentioned, we should discuss how we 1)are going to get it and 2) who we expect to vote for us/who is going to oppose us. 1) is the 'easy' part. Iznik should get it no problem if it starts a prebuild in time (right about now seems a good idea, storing up shields by alternating palace/Bat Med construction). 2) is trickier. I think Japan or Germany will be our opponent for the vote, which is bad as we are still on decent terms with them but will lose their vote. Neither England nor America will ever vote for us, so we need to make sure they don't make it to the vote :evil:
We should be able to buy the Vikings, the Zulu and the Iro's for sure. If we make peace with Korea soon without any cities changing hands, we may be able to salvage their vote. This should be enough to win.
If we decide to try and win via UN, I'd suggest only stealing from countries that are never going to vote for us or may oppose us in the vote.

UN is a definete possibility. I think a space victory is open but much hard as we are behind germany and Japan the 2 front tech runners. We have a strong enough production base with proper prebuilds to get the components built but not enough gold or science to get the required techs easily. Conquest and domination would be near impossible, most definetly Germany or Japan will launch before that is even possible. We should prepare to steal Fission safely once it becomes available and have our UN built but not necessary hold the vote until we are sure of the outcome. I made that mistake in Epic 25 and miscalculated how England would vote. I didn't lose the vote but didn't win either ;).

My assesment now if it is against just Germany we are in good shape: Zulu, Iroquois, Vikings, maybe even Japan for. Germany, America, England and Korea against. That is if Abe or Lizzy last that long.

This is all just a guess ;)

Originally posted by jack merchant
I did plant the spy in Korea partly to facilitate later steal attempts, too. But if we start stealing, we better be prepared for the consequences .

Jack, you don't need to plant a spy to steal techs... And I'm not certain if a spy will make stealing saver. I highly doubt that.

IIRC, a spy is supposed to have a higher chance of stealing successfully - I could be wrong though. The big advantage of the spy over the diplomat is that you can steal when at war, too.l

1380 AD (0): Diplo check- Japan and Germany look modern, but neither have started the UN yet. Everyone else is still Industrial. We have 16 turns to go on Atomic Theory, and about the same amount of time until our massive 276 gpt payment to Japan runs out. Espionage check shows that safe steals from Japan and Germany would both cost ~4400 gold, showing that Arathorn is probably right about the stealing quandary. I think we should steal only from the civ we think we'll be competing with in the UN, and then only with great care. The advisor shows that we have no less than three civs furious with us right now. :(

Korea will give us peace for free right now, but as that would mean breaking our MA with Shaka it's a :nono:. England is in severe trouble, as with one city left not besieged by us, they'll probably be dead before a UN vote. In seven turns, we can cancel our MA with Shaka.

Cities: Gack! Istanbul and Canterbury will riot unless attended to- Istanbul's taxman becomes an entertainer, and Canterbury gets a scientist until it forgets the whip, allowing me to reassign Miami's scientist. York is swapped to temple as it needs it more than a granary presently. We have a bunch of cities poised to go to size 15 and get specialists as size 14 is our natural happiness limit with infrastructure.

Ok: this next move may seem like :smoke:, but considering that Japan will not want to lose our heavy gpt payments to it and go to war, I go ahead and take action. On the first try, we get this result:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_ad1380.JPG

We now know if/when Japan will build SS parts.

(IT): Japan and America sign an MA against the Vikings. If Japan rolls over Ragnar, we have one less chance to win the UN vote.

1385 AD (1): Iznik reveals that it will build the Palace or Battlefield Medicine in 6 turns, and as no one has started the UN yet, I'm going to wait until I can verify that someone has Fission. We can't really delay production in this city very long, with it making 102 spt.

(IT): Germany and America make peace. A Korean SoD briefly appears in the fog of war.

1390 AD (2): We lose Spices, and WW starts at 30%! I decide on temporary peace with Liz, who is in trouble anyway- she'll give us her only other city? Sure! Korea, America, or Japan can take her out, and making peace gets us down to 20% WW. We're going to have to wait for our MAs with Zululand and Germany to end before we can make peace with Korea, but England can be dealt with right now.

It turns out that raising lux tax is less costly than hiring entertainers, and so I have to boost it to 20% in order to keep the country running. *wince*

(IT): Germany starts the UN!!!!

1395 AD (3): The city Germany has started the UN in is size 11, and a shield count reveals that Iznik can build the UN faster if we get Fission. However, Germany may have a monopoly, and we can't buy the remainder of our research on Atomic Theory at any price.

I think we're out of luck for the diplo victory, and we're going to have to go for SS, and instigate another World War. We have ~16 turns until we finish paying lots of gpt to Japan, who will use that money for research, and 4 turns until we can finish our MA with the Zulus against the Koreans. Wang Kon is modern now, and will have Fission himself soon. The only hope I see is if the world decides to gang up on Germany, and Japan stays in Communism. Otherwise, Biz might win the vote.


(IT): The Germans had a Great Leader! :cry:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1400ADIT.JPG

1400 AD (4): I guess now it's SS victory or bust. Many cities swapped to Coal Plants in anticipation of SS part production.

1405 AD (5): Not much happens here- the Koreans continue to occasionally bombard territory,

1410 AD (6): More of the same.

1415 AD (7): We can finally end our MA with Zululand honorably, and make peace with Korea. We can't get anything out of it, but we could get something out of it later as Korea lacks Rubber or Wines. Lux tax dropped completely, and some cities get entertainers while they build Colosseums, which they need at that level of population. We're still doubling our income by dropping lux tax.

Also:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1415AD.JPG

We now have spies in all the AI civs that could concievably beat us in SS part production.

1420 AD (8): Other than the stupid AI reassigning my scientist, nothing happens. I rehire him. Watch out for this happening.

1425 AD (9): :sleep:

1430 AD (10): Um, sorry about the :smoke: in Antalya- I mistimed its growth with its cathedral, which should build the turn after it returns to order.

Hmm... we could either sell Abe Combustion for all his gold and Gems, or take his gems from him- the spy reveals that our military could probably roll over him easily. However, attacking him might set WW afire. I'm going to leave it up for discussion- if we're going to wait on attacking him, we should make the deal and grab the lux, but if not, we should probably claim his territory ASAP to add to our productivity.

The save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1430AD.zip

Oh dear - no UN :cry: Well, there was no way to stop the Germans from getting it with a GL anyway. I agree on the world war - preferably we want Japan fighting Germany (with us on the German side until we get tanks - however, Germany should not get too many allies lest they win the UN vote).

I think we should take out the Americans - the WW from the last war should have evaporated by now. The only worry is riots in the formerly American cities. You never know, there might turn out to be aluminium in their territory.

The reason why we do not get a discount on atomic theory is that we only have lone scientist beakers on it -therefore, the actual amount of research we have towards it is negligeable (sp?) and we thus have to pay full price for it.

Luckily the Germans don't have many friends :(. We should take the Americans now and finish off the English in short order after that. If we ever get tanks we may be able go after the Zulu as well. We should allow our gold to grow and steal our way to the Modern age and toward space.

Hotrod (on deck)
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
CivGeneral <---- playing now (confirm got it)

@ CivGeneral: It has been 24 hours and no sign of got it and no posts since your last turn. Are you going to continue? If no got it by tonight I will skip you and grab the game tonight.

We are drawing to the last stages of this game and would like to conclude it Win or lose soon.

Hotrod

Hotrod, just grab the game ;) Let's be strickt in our 24/48 h rule. I want to continue as well. We have learned a lot in this game and we will keep on learning things as we proceed. :)

I got it and will try to play and post tonight. Tomorrow the lates as I want patch back for Gotm18. ;).

Ive Got it :). Sorry for the late reply :sad:

@Hotrod - If you have the save, please dont bother playing it since I have the save :).

Let's be strickt in our 24/48 h rule.
How about no :s. I have the save already

will skip you and grab the game tonight.

No, Dont skip me I already have the save. I just forgot to post the "Ive Got it at 7:00pm EST

Eliminated the Timeline

I've got it now.

CivGeneral: I am okay with you playing just would like it better if you were able to participate more in the discussion and try to post a got it before it moves on to someone else. We are in the last stages of the game and should be finished soon.

Originally posted by CivGeneral
[BFor all of the turns, all Spying efforts were failed[/B]

How do you mean :eek: How much money did you lose and did someone declare war :confused: Did we get at least one tech from trading? How far behind are we now? In general: why did you post such a brief report that says next to nothing?

I haven't had a chance to look at the save and was bit taken a back that the turns were posted even after I had made it clear that CivG was skipped and I was playing.

A couple things stick out: What were the spys doing? Are we at war? How much did we lose? Have we gotten AT yet?

I did start and play the first 2 turns and was ready to strick Abe, managed to keep the ivory for 400 something gold, actually traded Bizzy our only silks for his extra fur and 17 gpt.

Now I did say before this game was for players that are proficient at Emperor and Monarch and would like to try and beat deity as a team. We have managed to put on a good showing to say the least. Clawing our way out the tech hole, claiming our share of Abes lands, and Lizzies. And actually having a shot at the victory.

CivGeneral: I have remained silent on the missing of ToE, partly because I played the round after you and SM was not even available during my turns. But this was a pivotal round, we are transitioning to take Abe. Increase our economy so maybe we can try a tech steal safely from specific AI's. Getting to the Modern Age is a necessity or we risk not even having a chance at a launch. UN is already gone and conquest or domination are a fantasy.

Overall I think we all that have started from the beginning have worked well together and I would like to see the teamwork and discussion continue but reports such as the last one and the lack of an explanation on the missing of the ToE make me wonder exactly what the motivation behind your turns were. More detail would clear things up. Taking time to read the discussion and trying to follow it would help to.

I will not play until tomorrow night. I am sure I will have some more to say after I see the game.

Hotrod

Lurker post...Hotrod, don't ever let anyone tell that you are not extremely diplomatic. Nice job running the show!

delurk

I can only second Mystery.

You are a very nice and diplomatic guy.

I hope you and your other companions can pull this one out nevertheless.

As a hint (without looking at the Save): You can try to capture the UN if Germany is envolved in enough wars. (yes thats possible with Inf and Arty) Perhaps this gives you greater chances than going for the Launch.


Anyway Good Luck

Rowain

I hope no-one minds if I jump in here with a few comments...

CivGeneral, two experienced Deity players (ToddMarshall and myself) have recommended, after seeing you play two rounds in my TDG (two rounds being more than enough to get a rough gauge on a player's skill level), that you are not quite ready for Deity level yet, and should concentrate on improving your play at Monarch and Emperor in the immediate future, and then perhaps later consider moving to Deity.

We said this out of honesty, because we both felt it was true. We didn't say it to discourage you, or because we don't like you. Obviously you have been committed to the game of democracy, and have helped guide that to a win on Emperor level - an admirable thing in itself.

But to want to jump in here, and join a Deity game, played by a group of new Deity players that have themselves in a position that is already teetering on the brink of defeat.....I don't know if you're going to believe me here, but I'm being honest, it is beyond your skill level at this time. That's ok, it was beyond my skill level at one time too. It is admirable that you want to win on Deity, but this way of trying is going to end up only with animosity between you and other players.

I have looked at the save, and you have made some serious mistakes. These mistakes could perhaps be forgiveable at Emperor, but Deity is brutal. Brutal.

The other players in this game have been in the succession game community for a while. They have developed their skills on lower levels, and they have a grasp on succession game ettiquette. When joining a new community - even if you've been involved in a related one before - it is important to step back, be humble, and enter slowly and with subtlety. Play on a few Monarch or Emperor level teams, and other players will get to know you better, and you will get to know more about the culture of succession games. Then I am sure that eventually players will be willing to welcome you on board a Deity game.

Also, running a succession game is difficult. It's very difficult if players don't post "I got it", *especially* if those players haven't shown up since their last turn. If you do this, expect to be skipped. If you are told you are skipped and the next player has post an "I got it" message, then you do not play the game. That only makes the problem worse.

I'm not trying to be vindictive or cut you down here CivGeneral, I'm just pointing out ways that would smooth your entry into the succession game community.

Hotrod: If I may be so bold to make a recommendation, I would propose that you go ahead with saying that CivGeneral is skipped, particularly as you have already started your turn. You really need everything you can get in the situation you're in.

Good luck with the game,

Cheers,

-Sirp. (hoping he didn't step on anyone's toes)

First, I'd like to echo Rowain's and Mystery's sentiments; nice job, Hotrod :thumbsup: Also, congratulations on 1000 posts [party] :)

Second, I just had a short look at the save and agree with Sirp's recommendation.

(@CivGeneral) Some things that struck me:

- Our cities are actually starving due to the entertainers ! Maybe you hired them, maybe the game did when pollution occurred, but this is not good.
- Since we don't know when and who you spied on, we don't know when it is safe to try again and where.
- There doesn't seem to be a clear purpose to where our units are positioned
- We should have killed off the Americans and the English to drive down our tech prices.
- From the report, there is no indication of any sort of strategy involved in the decision making.

I am not the most experienced player around here, but to me a succession game is like a relay race - the handoff is as important as the running. CivGeneral, you did not acknowledge the criticism of your earlier turn or explained why you did what you did there, but it would be nice if you did this time. That should improve your proficiency at both grabbing the relay baton and running with it.

Sirp, thanks fore the comments. They are very valuable indeed :)

Based on the majority of the SG players in this game I will go ahead and complete my turns for this round from Borealis post.

Couple things:

(1): CivG please consider your turn as a shadow (before the fact) and continue to shadow as long as you like. You may post your shadows in the thread for further discussion or email them to me Following the post of the current player.

(2): I was wrong to bring a player in at this late in the game. We have already developed into a rhythm and adding a new player now did nothing more than disrupt the game.

(3): There will be more HOT games on Monarch in the future. Deity is fine but will not be the norm for me. I will welcome you back to another game FROM THE START and we can all get on the same page.

The Current and final Roster for the remainder of the Game:

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis

Shadow Player: CivGeneral

Great, Now I am not ready for Deity :(. Now I feel even more discurrage to Defeat Deity, let alone playing it :'-(. I wish to apologise on the :smoke: moves that were caused by me trying to rush the game. Please feel free to use the save you have got.

Consider me Dropped.

PS. Hotrod, please let me know if you create another SG

Discurraged Aspiring Deity Player,
CivGeneral

CivGeneral, there's nothing wrong with not being ready for deity. Not too long ago, I wasn't either. This is where learning comes in.
The best way to learn is practice. But the level of practice required depends on your initial skill -playing deity without having a good handle on monarch/emperor is like trying to get a master's degree in economics without having a high school diploma.
Moreover, learning requires feedback. It was not possible to give adequate feedback as your turn reports betrayed nothing of your reasoning - e.g. why you chose to do this/ avoid that, what your general strategy for your turn was. Feedback such as given was based on the saves of your turns, which indeed did not look like those of a player ready for deity.
I am not sure if the feedback/ criticism such as was given came through to you, as you did not offer any explanation other than 'rushing your turns'- we'd much rather have solid turns than rushed turns (a good part of my own :smoke: moves in SGs come from not being concentrated enough).. There is only the eminently reasonable requirement of posting a 'got it' in time, after which there is no need to rush. If you are strapped for time, you can always ask to be skipped.
If you feel discouraged about this 'mene tekel', consider trying to beat deity on your own. Surely you can try and beat deity if you are ready for it ? Then, consider joining an SG again. In the meantime, as a courtesy to those who signed up for the SG you yourself started a week ago, could you let them know if you were going to pursue it any further ?

Any Advice on how to improve uppon my Time line. I am not used to writing a monster detailed Timeline. And I am sorry for not responding on the Critizisms That I have. Though there is one problem with me playing Deity on my own, I still feel Discurage to even try it now. Anyway plees feel free to post the advice on how to write up a Timeline like you did, jack merchant.

Well, a timeline would cover anything interesting that happened on your turns: espionage actions, build choices, war declarations, trade deals etc. However, while some things are really necessary to know (such as MPP signings by other nations, wonder builds, production of space ship parts etc.) others (such as unit production and worker actions) do not always have to be described.

What is most important though is to have a concept in mind -when you get the game, familiarize yourself with ongoing deals, happiness, and decide on a strategy for your turn. Sometimes the strategy is predicated upon the choices of the team as a whole, like deciding to go get a Golden Age against the Americans, other times you have to make it up by yourself. It is crucial for other players to follow your thought processes that you describe in your timelines exactly why you did what you did. For example, in your turn you decided to build up our forces a bit and start on some airports. It would have made commenting on your turn easier if you had explained why. Turn reports need not always be extensive - in a crucial phase of the game though, it is important that they are.

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with not being ready for Deity. In fact, in many ways I wish I was once again not able to beat Deity, and was still stuck on Regent. Why? The experience of moving up from Regent, and discovering how to beat Monarch, Emperor, and then Deity was the most fun I have with Civilization III. That learning experience is lots and lots of fun. It was almost disappointing (among all the jubilation, don't get me wrong here :) ) the first time I beat Deity, because that learning experience felt over in many ways.

-Sirp.

For CivGeneral, these folks are right on--I have just started playing a solo diety game (yes, I am still a bit nervous), and so far, just getting enough experience in taking the last month and a half to leap up from regent has been the most rewarding of civ. I have learned so much every game seems like I am progressing to a new level even before the game is over. Now--I am still prepared to get my butt spanked on diety, but hey--it is the journey that matters. Even if I do, I know I will learn a whole lot more about my gaming than if I did not try it.

HOT3

1430 AD (0); Up lux to 10% and put all entertainers back to work, doesn't effect the gpt but now cities will grow a bit more quickly. Okay now I am not sure at all about this trade but I think it may help keep Bizzy out of any conflicts. I trade our only silk to Bizzy for furs and 17gpt.

IBTN: reup ivory deal for 430 gold, was 30gpt.

1435 AD (1): Phily hospital, start sipahi. Bursa coal plant - sipahi. Iznik infantry-infantry. Uskudar coloseum-coal plant. St.Louis infantry-sipahi. Antalya cathedral-university. Moving units to the Washington/New York boarder, sell Abe combustion for 250 of his 257 gold. He wnat to through in gems but I think I will just take them :hammer:. Declare war and attack with my stack of Artillery. Support with infantry. Sips attack and fail to kill that last rifle :(. Chicago gets an entertainer the American citizens aren't happy but it won't last long. Fail to get a new spy in Washington.

INBT: England and Zulu alliance vs. Korea.

1440 AD (2): New York sipahi - sipahi. edrine Coal plant - sipai. Boston infantry = Sipahi. Iznik infantry - sipahi. Izmit colosseum - sipahi. Aydin- infantry - sipahi. Strange I have never seen this before: Propaganda campaign hits Antalya???

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/unhappy.JPG

Redline and capture Washington a new size 1 city :D. Wounded Sipahi sent to Bursa to heal, new sipahi should be online soon. Artillery will move on Buffalo next.

1445 AD (3): England and Iroquios have an alliance vs. Germany. Easily bomb and capture Buffalo. Will split the artillery into 3 stacks to move on the remaining cities. Houston SanFran and Atlanta.

1450 aD (4): Istanbul builds coal plant start police station. Edrine Sipahi - police. Phily sipahi - sipahi. Iznik sipahi- police. WW is on the rise and requires 20% lux.

1455 AD (5): Capture Houston, move on Atlanta and San Fran. Atlanta should fall next turn SF in 2 turns. Have enough gold now for a safe steal but decide to allow AT to complete in 4 then will steal electronics. Trade wines and 175 gold to Korea for silks. We now have incence as well [dance] lux to 0% for now +625 gpt with 3900 in the bank.

Vikings and Koreans allie vs. Germans.

1460 AD (6): Istanbul riots, messed up the count. Boston Sipahi - artillery. Phily sipahi- sipahi. Bomb and capture Atlanta and Magellens voyage. Only SF remains and it will fall next turn. We lost our dyes that used to come from the vikings. From the looks of it they lost a city and there extra dyes. Up lux to 20%, once America is gone we will lose the WW and will have gems as well.

1465 AD (7): Iroquios and japan make peace. Germany takes the Englihs capital but they have a settler in our lands. They plunk him down right where he is and thus declare war. But where
did all the units come from ??? Has anyone ever seen this before.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/englishwar.JPG

Capture Richmond, and kill there last settler. The English are gone ! Capture San Fran but the Americans are still around, must have a wandering Settler :(. Okay now for more wierdness.

Dial up Abe and make peace he gets flight and we finally get Atomic theory. Fire all tax men and entertainers that I can and set lux to 0%. Safely steal Electronics from Japan for 4300+/-gold. We only have 765 in the bank now but get 850gpt. Give the Viking steel for 19gpt, and 310 gold. Motorized Transport is due in 10 turns with a modest +115 gpt. or we leave it at 0% and go for another steal. I opt to leave it at 0% for at least 2 more turns that would allow enough gold for quick steal and I will leave it up to the next player to roll the dice.

1470 AD (8): Moving units around, artillery and sipahi sent to two northern cities. Abe declares on Korea via the settler. He won't last long. Complete some police start others. Diplo check reveals we can get tanks so I go for it. Get Motorized Transport from Korea for 345gpt and 50 gold. Now researching Radio at min. Change many cities to Tanks.

1475 AD (9): Our first tanks roll off the assembly lines. Pickup 9 slaves from the Iroquios for Atomic Theory. Sell communisim to the Vikings for 19gpt. Trade Zulu AT for Amphibose warr.

1480 AD (10): Not much going on. Finished a few more tanks and did some railroading. Still not enough gold for a careful steal but there is for an immediate steal. Well I am not too sure if this matters but I decide to immediately steal from Korea, we are paying them huge gpt and I don't think they will pass that up even if we get caught and with our tanks around and they have
been slowly losing there infantry - down to 34 from 51. I decide to risk it.

I am successful and we are in the modern age [party]. Got Rocketry as expected and are only behind on Space flight and fission to Germany (that we know of). [dance] I start research on Computers. Due in 33 turns at 40% with +74 gpt. We also have a leader in the wings for Seti.

Okay I think Korea is the next target, once we get tanks rolling we can move right through.

There are still 18 turns on our tech deals however.

One :smoke: was taking gpt from the Vikings, Japan is rolling over them now and I don't think their last 3 cities will make it. We will get a rep hit and I completely forgot about that stupid side effect when a civ dies.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1480ad.zip

Looks like you guys are making a recovery and are now in with a good chance of pulling out a win :goodjob:

If you have a spare, smallish city, you could consider gifting it to the Vikings to avoid the reputation hit. It might be worth considering.

-Sirp.

One was taking gpt from the Vikings, Japan is rolling over them now and I don't think their last 3 cities will make it. We will get a rep hit and I completely forgot about that stupid side effect when a civ dies.

AFAIK you only get the rep-hit if you are paying them something/turn not when they are paying you.


Congrats on a very good turn :)

Rowain

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Okay I think Korea is the next target, once we get tanks rolling we can move right through.

:eek: 20 turns ago they were a super-power :eek:
Another great - but weird- round :) But that gpt deal with the vikings might be killing :(

Originally posted by Sirp
If you have a spare, smallish city, you could consider gifting it to the Vikings to avoid the reputation hit. It might be worth considering.

-Sirp.

Super idea! I did it in my PBEM vs ERIKK and it worked nicely :) I forgot about it though...

Rowain suggests that we don't get a rep hit. I believe that's correct, as long as we do not give lux or resources... And looking at the report, we only gave tech :)

Rowain is correct - we don't get a rep hit from the Vikings dying if we are selling.


Great turn, Hotrod ! (oh, and I got it)

Good to know! I wasn't positive but figured why not take there gold.

Abe doesn't have any cities but must still have a settler wandering.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <----- playing now
Aggie (on deck)
Borealis

Just a reminder: I will be on vacation all next week returning on the 19th. Good luck on your next turns and hopefully I wil be able to jump in when I return ;).

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Just a reminder: I will be on vacation all next week returning on the 19th. Good luck on your next turns and hopefully I wil be able to jump in when I return ;).

We will try to arrange it that you will be the one to launch the space Ship ;)

Back! Ah, I notice that we are shooting for an SS victory still? (Just checking.)

Also... I'm not sure if we can pull this off, but stealing/buying our way towards Satellites first rather than the other tech branches would be good, as ICBMs make excellent SS part prebuilds. I've caught up on reading, but I didn't see any mention of the AI building Apollo yet- if we can get that, we can build many parts simultaneously. This also tells us if we need to go hunting for uranium. :satan:

Welcome back Borealis! I am sure the last few post have made for interesting reading :hammer: ! We have finally wiped out the Americans, save the wandering settler. Lizzy is gone and have made it to the Modern age :). With tanks available conquest and domination are not off the table but I think a space shot will just come in sooner than later. Missing the UN was a bummer but it make the game a bit more exciting. All is not lost and we have come along way from the start :D.

I think we can catch Bizzy and beat him to a launch all the while increasing our production base :satan:.

Borealis, domination is also still not entirely out of the picture ;). Although Germany looks very strong. That said, Korea was a superpower as well, and look now :)

It is amazing what lacking a few resources will do. I was tempted many times to give up rubber for a reduced price on tech but common sense won out. We didn't really get to beating up the AI in the inf2 game until all there resources were spent. Rifles just aren't effective against 8 attack marines or in this case 8 attack Sipahi :).

Inherited turn : Veto research on computers - we cannot afford to wait 33 turns for any particular tech. I turn off research - we make 619 gpt at 100% taxes. Only the Germans are ahead of us in tech now - if we can catch up with them/knock them out, we will be able to beat anyone in the space race due to our superior skill at prebuilding.
We have a small empty city near San Francisco of which I don't really understand the purpose. I move in an infantry and hurry the library in SF. I also wake up some workers to mine over irrigation near our biggest cities to stop them from growing into unhappiness.

My goal for this turn will be to provoke a war against the Germans, as they are the main threat to victory. Our tank forces will have to be built up first as Germany currently has 49 Panzers and we have 2 :) However, we can't wait too long as they might get Computers next, in which case we are royally screwed.

1485 AD (1) 5 tanks complete and more are ordered up. We do not yet have the money to steal from Germany. I'd like to provoke war against Korea instead to get out from under the payment but that would be dastardly - plus we need them as allies for the forthcoming war against the Germans.
Looking over the diplo screen though, I notice Korea is already at war with Germany ! Seeing as we don't want the Germans to beat the Koreans, I provoke a war with Germany by sabotaging production in one of their smaller cities, then sell the Koreans rubber for 300+ gold and sign an alliance and ROP vs the Germans with them, the Koreans paying us 20gpt for the privilege. I also sign in the Americans against the Germans for Mass Production. Maybe the Germans would be so kind as to destroy the Americans for us. I also sign an MPP with the Japanese paying them 10 gpt - they are only at war with the Vikings and we can afford to antagonize those as they will be dead soon. They should be at war with the Germans pretty soon now :D
We start by taking Leeds and Kaifeng and razing Nottingham in combined artillery/sipahi/tank operations. Each captured city gives us ~1100 gold ! :D We kill 2 Panzers and lose one tank - not good enough. I abandon Norwich - we don't want the Germans to capture it and thus get our WW to explode when we cannot possibly defend it.

The one bad thing about the war is that we are forced to turn up luxuries to 10% right away to prevent disorder from occurring. This costs us 135 gpt but since we just stole 3300 gp from the Germans, we should be fine.

IT Lose one tank and 2 workers to German counterattack, the Germans lose a Panzer. The Japanese MPP is triggered and Japan declares war on Germany. Somebody sabotages our production in Seattle.

1490 AD (2) Our artillery SOD, covered by 4 Infantry and 4 tank units, moves up to Yangchow. It's size 21 but capturing it should deprive the Germans of gems. A settler is hurried in Dover to replace the town; we don't have the spare troops to quell resistance. Other infantry are stripped from everywhere to cover the workers laying tracks to the front.

Diplomatically, the Koreans are now polite and the Japanese are gracious.

IT Korea and the Zulu sign peace, which is good. No German counterattack materializes - I'm guessing that the majority of their forces are in the north.

1495 AD (3) I enlist the Zulu in our grand coalition against the Germans for Electronics.
We raze Yangchow after artillery bombardment at the cost of 1 tank The sacking of Yangchow fills our coffers with another 2100 gp. German culture in the area is so strong that we cannot yet get a settler there to replace it though. Our tanks move on Macao, preparing to take it next turn.
Richmond is abandoned, as we have no use for it after all other than driving up the number of cities we are over the OCN with FP.

IT No German counters; the Japs destroy the Vikings just after our signing a trade embargo against them

1500 AD (4) We raze Macao, scoring another 1500 gold in the process. Whoever said war didn't pay ? A settler from London replaces the city. We can now also found in the former location of Yangchow and the artillery stack is free to go after Canton next turn. The tank that defeated the radar tower on the mountain there spots a barb horsie !
I thought our worker count was a bit low with all the pollution at the beginning of the turn but now we're doing much better.

IT Our people in Seattle remain sleepless as production is sabotaged yet again. The culprit, a German spy is caught though. The power of the Panzer is demonstrated is a single Panzer out of Chengdu kills a Sipahi, a tank and an infantry. Korea signs in Japan against America - kill that settler already !

1505 AD (5) We lose 2 tanks and 3 Sipahi but Canton is ours. And with it, Sun Tzu's Art of War [dance] Our treasury is also filled with another 970 gold. Further good news as I manage to plant another spy in Berlin. All this money we earned from the looting of cities now begs to be spent, and we safely steal space flight from the Germans ! I then feel even more lucky and go for yet another safe steal, and we get computers from the Germans [party]
I sell Computers to the Japanese for dyes, 180gpt and 7390 gold. They had fission too but it was too expensive and with the proceeds of the sale, we can fund yet another steal attempt (at 4550 gold a pop). This time though, our spy doesn't succeed but does get away.
Now that we have Sun Tzu, I upgrade all our infantry to mechanized infantry for 1600 gold. To increase our income I sell gems to the Japs for 22 gpt, but I think that may have been a mistake.

Orhan rushes SETI in Istanbul and Iznik starts the Apollo Program. I considered rushing the Apollo Program for a moment but you can only produce so many spaceship parts at the same
time and it seemed important to deny it to the AI - they're still researching when they shouldn't be :D .

1510 AD (6) Pollution hits in 5 different places. We capture Chengdu with no losses and loot another 1400 gold. I invest it in another safe steal attempt but this time around, the spy is caught. Another settler is hurried from London to replace Chengdu when we abandon it next turn. Our forces move further onto Kaesong and Tsingtao.

IT The Japanese destroy the Americans. Way to go, Toku !

1515 AD (7) We capture Tsingtao and Kaesong for another 2000 gold total. 2 tanks die to a defending Panzer though in the open near Anyang. Marignan is founded to replace Chengdu.
A few cities are put on prebuilds for the spaceship parts that come available when the Apollo Program finishes. Some workers move to connect Kaesong, which has furs.

1520 AD (8) Shell the ironclads in the Chinese lake to 1hp each (they have already destroyed both the temple and the marketplace in Dover). 4 tanks die but we take Tientsin (10 resistors out of 10 :lol: ) and a demonic fortied infantryman out in the open kills another 2 and retreats one before dying. A settler is hurried out of Canton to replace Tientsin.
Our workers lay a railroad track to Anyang, which is also captured, albeit at the cost of another tank (to a Panzer ! what is it with Panzers on defense ?!? ). Since we have workers to spare, the military track is is extended to Warwick and Newcastle, which will be the targets for next turn.

IT The Germans want to talk, I don't. The Zulu want an MPP - I sell them Radio instead for wm, 34gpt and 340 gold.

1525 AD (9) We capture Newcastle for 920 gold. Seeing as we have some spare change left in the kitty, I send our Spy in Kyoto to steal Fission from the Japanese. He is successful, and we now have full tech parity ! Also, we have 4 sources of uranium :evil:
We capture Paoting, too, which will give us spices next turn. Tsingtao and Kaesong are abandoned and replaced with properly Ottoman cities. Warwick holds out for another turn - but the artillery SOD is in position now.

1530 AD (10) The Apollo Program completes, 3 parts are in production. Another Palace expansion the third in my reign. We lose our supply of ivory but hook up spices, so we do not need to buy them again.
Warwick falls, and just for good measure, we take Liverpool too. I start gathering some tanks in Houston in case we want to invade Germany proper. There is also a stack of surplus workers south of Philadelphia in case more pollution pops up.

It's fortunate that Germany lacks aluminium; that means no mech inf and modern armour for them, also, I think it is a required resource for a number of spaceship parts. Japan, moreover, lacks uranium, which is also required for one part. Meaning that we're in an excellent positiot to win this game :D Our resource luck throughout the game has been outstanding.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_1530AD.zip)

This is great work Jack :hammer:

But are we playing that same game in which we were frightened to be blown away? In which we were one age behind? :lol: In which we missed TeO?

Looking at our strategy now: I vote for domination, with the Gemans missing aluminum and the Japs missing uranium :cool:
However, winning the Space Race tells us that we outresearched the AI. Maybe even better :)

I have no problem at all with nuking the crap out of everyone who ever rubbed us the wrong way :evil:

We might think about replacing our palace if we capture even more territory. It's now placed at the edge of our empire.

'got it'. :D

A picture of our new lands:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-newlands.jpg

Well done!! Moving on the Germans was an excellent choice ! :goodjob: The cash that they lost to us has made all the difference, funding our "research" :satan: and allowing us to pay our "friends" for the privilage of distracting our enemy Bizzy.

I would continue to move on German proper all the while continuing to build parts. It is good to have options!!

I think domination would come close with just our main continent and leaving Japan to fend for themselves.

Who know I may not even get the game back :D.

Hotrod