HOT 3 Setup:

Civilization: Ottomans (Scientific and Industrious)

Large Map
Land Mass: Pangaea - 70%
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
4 Billion years
Barbs: Roaming
Rivals: 11 all random

Difficulty Level: DEITY

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot3start.JPG

Roster:

Hotrod
Aggie
Jack Merchant
Borealis
OPEN - A Non-Diety player or a Deity Vet winning to help 4 Deity Neophytes ;)

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3start_4000BC.zip

Hint #1:

You are scientific - make sure you understand the "Nationalism Slightshot (tm - Architect).

4000 BC (0): With a deer in the city limits and a fish visable to the SW I elect to move the settler 1 tile west. This will do two things, get 2 bonus tiles in city limits and pop what could be a dangerous hut.

3950 BC (1): Found Istanbul and pop the hut, it is deserted. Start on Pottery at 90%, due in 36 turns. Building a warrior for scouting.

3900 BC (2): zzzz

3850 BC (3): zzzz

3800 BC (4): zzzz

3750 BC (5): Build warrior start another. Sending Warrior NW.

3700 BC (6): zzzz

3650 BC (7): Spot wines and a river to the NW.

3600 BC (8): There is hut in the mountains will pop it in 2 turns.

3550 BC (9): Build a warrior start another. Warrior will stay home to keep everyone happy.

3500 BC (10): Pop the hut and get a settler [dance]!! The question is where to put him.

Without being able to see too much of the map elect to keep him on the river rather than make a claim on the wines right away. One of the first settler from Istanbul will do that soon enough.

Send the settler 2 tiles east to the corner of the river, no overlap with Istanbul and what looks like a good balance of grasslands and hills.

3450 BC (11): Boarders expand, settler is in postion for next turn founding of city number 2.

3400 BC (12): Istanbul builds another warrior and starts a settler. Found Edrine, start warrior. Warrior levels Istanbul and scouting to the NE.

3350 BC (13): With Pottery due in 8 turns elect to start a fourth warrior now and wait for the city to grow and bring a granary online before starting a settler.

3300 BC (14): Istanbul builds warrior starts barracks as a pre-build for the granary. Spot a light blue boarder to the NW, it could be Abe. Pottery is due in 7.

3250 BC (15): Will have contact next turn. Exploration continues.

3200 BC (16): Edrine builds warrior, starts barracks for vet units. Pottery is due in 5. Spot another hut to the NE. Abe is met, he is annoyed, and is ahead by Alphabet and pottery and will not trade.

3150 BC (17): With pottery due in 4 start forestry at Istanbul to speadup the granary. Pop the hut and it is deserted.

3100 BC (18): Abe is sending settler our way. There are more wines to the NE.

3050 BC (19): With Abe being agressive decide too go with a settler now and granary next. MM to grow and build in 2 turns.

3000 BC (20): Research at 30% to get Pottery in 1 with +5gpt. Settler will complete next turn but could be swapped to barracks to get 30 sheilds up on the granary. Forestry will complete next turn as well adding another 10 shields. That leaves 20 more sheilds to complete the granary in 4 turns. Then start our first settler. IF we can afford to wait is the question. Abe has only NewYork but there are 2 settlers that just left his boarders. And the vast green will fillup fast - I think we have to get the settler out now then go for the granary next.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3_3000BC.zip

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/hot3_3000BC.JPG

Hotrod (just played)
Aggie <==== playing now play 20 this round
Jack Merchant (on deck)
Borealis
Open

As a reminder: NO exploits, honor 20 turns deals, no ROP abuse etc etc, and no automated workers or long goto commands.

HINT #1: Learn and use the Nationalism slingshot (LK)

OK, got it. Try to play tonight (CET), l but I have another game going as well. Also Ottomans :)

Any suggestions for the next cities / dotmap anyone?

Not a good start position there ! Contacts may be slow in coming with us apparently on the periphery of the continent. Our scouting warriors should probably refrain from opening huts - getting them killed may set us back by half an age in the tech race.
I tried to make a dotmap; please be gentle, never made one before. Dark purple, orange and dark blue are priorities to seal off our borders. White dot looks tasty (is that a game forest up there?). Light green is a longshot. Pink and yellow can wait until last, we shouldn't get beaten to these spots. Black might be moved depending on what's under the fog.
If we were to get most or all of these spots, Edrine and blue dot qualify as possible FP locations..

I'd switch Istanbul to a granary, unless the American settler pairs appear to be heading south. It is obvious that we need to go to war with the Americans, preferably with horsemen. Our terrain doesn't look good for saltpeter, and even iron is doubtful.

If u want a fifth player i'm in, got 4 PTW emperor wins but cant seem to beat deity.

Looking at dot map wouldnt blue dot be better on hill adjacent to wines. better for defence, doesnt waste 2 bonus grassland and instant hook up for lux. pink dot then moved 1 square sw.

Hm, didn't look closely enough - can't believe I overlooked thos two bg tiles ! I agree with swiftsure on moving blue dot, being closer to the capital will also help with corruption.

Swiftsure: Welcome!

Late last night I didn't have a chance to dot map the area. A couple things. Blue should be moved either to the hill or maybe just 1 tile south to reduce overlap with Istanbul. The yellow dot moved NE 1 tile, again to reduce overlap. And press the white dot 1 tile North to bring the wines online and cut overlap with Edrine.

I think the wines city is a priority to help with happiness maybe the White and purple to help seal the area and allow us to backfill at yellow and pink.

Any more comments on settler vs. granary? The Americans are out and about and look to be heading EAST but may send more toward our NW before we can get a settler to OUR wines.

Hotrod

There appears to be *TWO* different blocks of wines if I read the map correctly. Do you think America will get them both? Only one in critical for self owned luxuries - the block of two is a bonus.

I want to have the granary first. Otherwise our city won't grow fast enough.

EDIT: I want to suggest that we always spend 12 to 24 hours on comments after a new update. That allows us to weigh all the possibilities and identify errors.

No I don't think America will get both.

Pulling in the closest wine town soon will help with home grown happiness. Getting the second city with 2 more wines will aid later for trading.

The other concern is how far to the North or NE are the other civs.

Hotrod

You have answered your own question. You put a long delay for settler #3 without the granary.

Some Comments:

a) if the wines are on the river (which I think they are) I would have settled there.

b) Builds: finish settler and start Granary in Istanbul, use the worker to chop wood and speed the Granary;
Swap Edrine to Worker and use the Worker to chop wood and bring irrigation down to the Game-tile

c) as a general advise: don't be too afraid about some overlap. 15 tiles per city are good enough.

d) try to found 8 cities as soon as possible and build the FP fast.

Good Luck :)

Rowain


PS: all of the above are just my opinion and could very well be :smoke:

i think i'd stick with blue on the hill, yellow i'd only move if there was fish or whales under the shroud.

@ Rowain: Considered on the wines directly but was concerned with the 3 tile overlap with Istanbul. Maybe my old habits of getting very little overlap need to be broken down a bit ;). The worker is chopping now and should have only 2 turns left. Enough time to finish the settler and get a 10 sheild jump on the granary.

My concern is delaying the settler for the granary and allowing Abe to push further towards us. Getting another worker is a must soonish. The barrracks may be in the category of what can wait should (tm).

Thanks to all for your input :goodjob: I am confident that Aggie will have a good set of turns and we will have many other things to discuss tomorrow.

Hotrod

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf

a) if the wines are on the river (which I think they are) I would have settled there.




A better move with the wines - you could have settler one square away next to the river and irrigated the wines. When it comes to food grassland = 2, wines = 1, irrigation = 1. This gives 4 food, -1 penalty, and still 3 food. Wines are the bonus food tile that many players forget. Cows and wheat are obvious, forest game is often missed, but wines are missed by way to many people. A faster growth city is very valuable at all levels, more so at deity.


@Hotrod - be very careful asking for comments. You may get more then you desire.

Lee: point taken. If "help" gets to be too much I am sure we all will let you know. I recalled the wines from LK33, missed it then :).

One comment, as most people have said what I would have- we need to remember to keep our worker count higher than usual, to build on our advantage of being Industrious. After we get the granary, see if you can build a worker in between a settler or two, as we need to connect luxuries and improve tiles, as well as connect our cities for speedy travel.

It looks like Edrine will be a military city, and if I'm right, we need to build at least one more high-food city to help colonize that open space. If we can irrigate the wines, Blue dot would be ideal, and help us pump settlers and workers. The AI will out-build us in city number unless it's at war, but if we pay enough attention to terrain improvements, we'll be able to fight for land when the time comes.

Also- please, even if it means producing a warrior to 'follow' the settlers, make sure new cities have some sort of garrison within a turn or two. The AI, especially on Deity, loves to declare on you when you have empty cities, and often won't turn back later once it's sent troops.

I second Borealis comments! We can infact get another worker from Edrine now if desired. Use it to cut some wood and get our barracks online and use the worker get to those irrigated wines that much faster.

Alot has been said and a lot of options are on the table. I think Aggie has a few decisions to be made and so far a least we are okay. Getting a settler helped !

From the peanut gallery, a couple of more comments....

Blue dot is obviously your next city. Another factor to remember when choosing its exact site is that rivers alleviate the need for aqueducts. Ducts can take a lot of shields in the earlyish part of the game. And as Rowain mentioned, don't be too afraid of overlap. By the time your cities grow beyond size 12 (after hospitals), so much of the game is already decided.

As a scientific civ, libraries are a better culture value than temples....

Good luck on your game. I am sorry that I missed joining up. I am in the same boat as most of you....have done emperor, but not deity.

Could I be put at a later time later in the schedule? I've got a lot of games going at he moment. And in all of them it is or was my turn...

I can take it and play tomorrow, if there's no objection.

Go for it Jack

Ok, got it. As a matter of fact, I'll play right now. It's only midnight anyway :)

I'd just like to second the thing about irrigating the game tile. This is *very* important. You're an industrious civ, so cutting the forest and getting irrigation down to the game tile shouldn't take long, and the chop speeding the granary is a bonus.

Once you have that going, you'll have the most important thing of all in a Deity/builder game: a settler factory that has the capacity to let you expand at a competitive rate.

-Sirp.

Preturn: Istanbul changed to barracks -> granary, Edrine to warrior. Having another scout can't hurt us.

2950 BC (1) Pottery comes in, research set to iron working at min sci. Luxuries to 10% to keep Istanbul happy. Istanbul changed to granary, due in 6. Forestry should cut this to 4.
Warrior to the west discovers a whale and a cow in the range of orange dot. American settler SSE of Washington moving east, there's a silk there.

2900 BC (2) Edrine produces warrior, starts worker. Forestry finished reveals a bg tile, Granary now due in 2.

IT Americans build 2 cities, one near the silk, one directly northeast of Edrine.

2850 BC (3) Pop a hut to the west (area was already sealed off for exploration by the Americans) and we get ceremonial burial ! The Americans have nothing to offer for it.

2800 BC (4) Istanbul finishes granary, starts spear to protect forthcoming settler. The settler would have come in before size 4. Exploring warrior to the east spots an orange border.

2750 BC (5) We meet the English. They are up alphabet and warrior code on us, as are the Americans. Sell ceremonial burial to the English for 39 gold and then send it and 70 gold to the Americans in exchange for WC. America is now cautious.

IT English start work on the Colossus.

2710 BC (6) Exploring.

2670 BC (7) Istanbul builds spear, starts settler, due in 5. Edrine finishes worker, starts barracks. Luxes turned off due to mp in Istanbul. Edrine worker starts mining the grassland.

2630 BC (8) zzz

2590 BC (9) Gems spotted N of America.

2550 BC (10) Barb kills our warrior near Boston (the eastern american city), attacking across a river. Americans and English now have The Wheel and Iron working. A barb horse is spotted near a barb camp to the North, this means they have HBR too ? We can't afford to buy in either case.

2510 BC (11) We meet the Zulu, who have alphabet and IW. We can't afford a 2-for-1 as Istanbul is set to produce a settler next turn. Also spot a dark blue border. Lux to 10%.

2470 BC (12) Istanbul produces settler, starts spear, luxes off. Spear and settle set off for the tile directly SE of my original blue dot as the original dot was not the river. It does waste a bg tile, but allows us to profit from the wines and brings a bg tile into play for Edrine. The only concern is that it is located suboptimally for defense.

2430 BC (13) We meet the Koreans, who are up by alphabet, wheel, IW and mysticism. We cannot afford to buy any of these.

2390 BC (14) zzz

2350 BC (15) Bursa founded, set to build granary for now. Feel free to veto.

2310 BC (16) Istanbul produces spear, starts settler. Buy the wheel from Korea for 70gp+4gpt, the cheapest price I could get. There are horses just outside of the borders of Istanbul.

2270 BC (17) zzz

2230 BC (18) Americans found Chicago near the cattle to the west. A barb horse kills our warrior in the same region.

2190 BC (19) zzz

2150 BC (20) zzz


I sent the worker from Edrine first to improve its worked tile, then sent it to connect to Bursa and improve the other good tile in range. The worker from Istanbul during my turns first improved a bg tile to the SE of Istanbul, then started a road to Bursa and is now irrigating the wine tile. I irrigated it first because we didn't need the luxury online yet.
There's a settler due in Istanbul next turn; I am uncertain of whether it should go west to claim land there or east to grab the two wines. Long term the wines are probably more valuable.
A possible strategy might be to grab the wines, then the horse and once HBR comes in, grab whatever the Americans build for us to the west.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-2150BC.SAV)

And a look at our current empire (the Koreans are to the north of the Americans, the English to the east):

Bring on the Horsies :hammer:. Good start Jack!

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
Swiftsure

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <==== playing now play 10 turns from this point forward
Borealis (on deck)
Swiftsure

Aggie if you ar ready feel free to grab the game and go tonight :)

Getting a city near the 2 wines to the NE may be our next priority. We can fill in for the horses with the next settler. Edrine should start on vet spears as soon as the barracks completes. I think I would be inclined to leave the granary in blue dot city and use it for a worker farm. Let us the industrious trait to our advantage. Like Rowain and Sirp said getting water to Istanbul should be a priority.

Good luck!

Hotrod

Just finished my turn in Warmonger's delight. I've got time. Got it.

Everything seems OK. The Americans have a super starting location. :(

2110 BC (1) Istanbul: settler->settler. Settler goes to 'white dot'.

IT: The Iroquois start the Oracle. So someone sold our contact with them.

2070 BC (2) The Iroquois have contact with the Chinese and Russians. They also have knowledge of Alphabet, Iron Working and Mysticism. I buy the contacts for 39 gold and 1 gpt. Hiawatha turns polite. China and Russia have nothing to offer. Maybe it would have been better for me to wait for their contact...

IT: Wine is connected

2030 BC (3) Edrine finishes barracks and starts spear.

1990 BC (4) :sleep:

1950 BC (5) :sleep: The AI won't trade.

1910 BC (6) Forest chopped SW of Edrine.

IT: American spear/settler arrive at the double-wine spot. This leaves me no choice: I'm going to settle just north of the game-tile, to have at least one wine in the city border (after culture expansion).

1870 BC (7) Istanbul: settler-> warrior. Edrine: spearman->settler. Iznik founded. Starts granary.

IT: The Koreans have built the Pyramids in Seoul. In a cascade the Iroquois finished the Oracle in Salamanca. The American settler leaves from OUR second wine spot. :lol:

1830 BC (8) :sleep:

IT: Lincoln establishes an embassy. Saves us money.

1790 BC (9) :sleep:

IT: Lincoln offers us to invest in peace. Of course my friend. Take the 20 gold! He replies: 'You've maintained the peace and enriched a friend. Americans DO have a sense of humor. :lol:

1750 BC (10) Settler/spear almost arrived at JM's orange dot.

A worker chops a forest near Edrine (finished in 4). The settler there finishes in 3. Another worker is waiting for orders. Granary in Bursa takes a little while still. We almost have secured our little piece of the world. We could expand a little towards Philadelphia before we settle within our own territory. Maybe even east of Iznik. But an American settler just moved in that direction...

1750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3-1750BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3-1750BC.JPG

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis <===== Playing now
Swiftsure (on deck)

Great timing on the wine city :).

Looks like we only need 2 more settlers to fill in now. Could we produce those in Istanbul and leave Edrine to produce military instead ? Not that I dare press this point with a now officially deity-level player like Aggie :)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans settled in such a way as to steal both wines from Iznik - the PTW AI seems to settle much more agressively than in v1.29.

PS I had to look *very* closely when Iznik was mentioned - for me that makes 2 SGs and a solo game as Ottomans ! :crazyeye:

Originally posted by jack merchant
Looks like we only need 2 more settlers to fill in now. Could we produce those in Istanbul and leave Edrine to produce military instead ? Not that I dare press this point with a now officially deity-level player like Aggie :)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans settled in such a way as to steal both wines from Iznik - the PTW AI seems to settle much more agressively than in v1.29.

PS I had to look *very* closely when Iznik was mentioned - for me that makes 2 SGs and a solo game as Ottomans ! :crazyeye:

Thanks JM, but one deity win is no deity win. I still can learn a lot and feel that my win was largely based on luck...

About settling: I would grab all the land I could get.

About the Ottomans: I doubt that you will confuse this Ottoman game with CG5 :) But we started slowly there as well, remember ;)

Got it; I will play tonight. I'll probably stick to leaving Edrine on the settler- we need to grab as much land as we can, and as long as we don't leave cities empty for too long, the AI will hopefully demand rather than sneak attack. England and America are too likely to grab the wines if we leave them alone. More cities=more cash, and with our current gold in the bank and gpt rate, we don't have enough to upgrade to swords and weather AI tribute demands.

Also- we need culture soon, if we're going to hold onto our cities once we build/capture them. I won't get a chance to do so, but as soon as we discover Iron Working we should go for Literature, IMO.

I agree with borealis, except for the wines: it's a gamble to get to the wines, because an american settler just went that way... But if we get there, maybe we can also get further east... maybe...

1750 BC (0): Looks good- all cities happy, and workers busy.

1725 BC (1): Istanbul builds warrior; starts another. This warrior moves to Edrine to escort the settler there.

(IT): The Americans grab the wine spot- their settler must have moved faster than we expected. We'll fill in instead with our next two settlers.

1700 BC (2): Uskudar founded on orange dot; starts temple. We need the temple to prevent severe cultural problems with Chicago, and if we get Literature first we can always swap it. Iznik swapped to temple as we'll have three cities with granaries to pump workers once the granary at Bursa finishes, and Iznik will need the cultural help against America. Philadelphia already has a temple and we don't want to lose to flips.

(IT): The Iroquois start the Colossus.

1675 BC (3): Edrine builds settler; starts temple- we need it to grow before we can start the worker-pump, and with only 20 turns on the temple it's doable. The settler/warrior pair head for pink dot, as that seems the one most at risk from American settler pairs heading through our territory- the settler at Istanbul will build before we have to worry about losing the horses.

(IT): The English start the Colossus. A stack of English units moves towards Korea- unless that's a settler escort, which could be possible, there might already be an AI-AI war going on.

1650 BC (4): :sleep: (aka warrior/worker actions) No trades are possible without severe cases of shooting self in the foot.

1625 BC (5): The Americans are kindly killing off the barbs near pink dot, which is nice although it means 25 gold for them first.

1600 BC (6): :sleep:

1575 BC (7): Izmit founded on pink dot.

(IT): The Iroquois have stacks of... warriors... heading towards England and Korea.

1550 BC (8): Istanbul builds settler; starts barracks. This can be swapped to temple if we decide to put off war, or have iron problems.

(IT): Americans start The Great Lighthouse.

1525 BC (9): :sleep:

1500 BC (10): Aydin founded on yellow dot near horses; starts barracks (again, can be swapped to temple).

Just a note: Bursa will build a worker every four turns at size 3, if you remember to swap the automatic AI allocation of the third worker from the forest to the unworked grassland tile. The next worker should be sent to connect and develop Uskudar, which needs shields to build a temple there. Iron Working is due in 2 turns. The AI in general is up in tech by Alphabet, Mysticism, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding- Cathy lacks some tech, and has a worker hiding in her capital, so avoid gpt deals with her as she is most likely at war with various opponents. If she's alive by the time we get Iron Working, swap it to her for Horseback Riding if at all possible. Most of the AI probably has Writing, and Abe at least has Map Making. I haven't seen anyone start The Great Library, so it's possible no one has Literature, but depending on the exploration of the continent, they could get it from a hut so beware.

1500 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/HOT3_1500BC.zip)

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis
Swiftsure <===== Playing now

got it and will play tonight

quick report as very quiet 10 turns

1475bc bursa builds worker,MM bursa to build another worker in 4 as Borealis detailed

1450bc Discover iron working and we have two sources, unfortunately nearly everybody else iron as well. Trade IW to russia for horseback riding and 12gp. start on Myst

1425bc zzzz

1400bc zzzz

1375bc bursa builds worker starts worker. england completes colossus

1350bc zzzz

1325bc istanbul builds barracks starts spearman,edrine builds temple starts spearman. horses are connected.

1300bc zzzzz

1275bc bursa builds worker starts worker

1250bc istanbul builds spearman starts temple. iznik builds temple starts barracks.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-1250bc.SAV

Good to remember for later - the English are in their GA now.

We only have a few cities and haven't a lot of room to expand on our continent. What to do people?

Jump the Americans with horses, I guess. I doubt we're making enough money to do a warrior-sword upgrade and keep even remotely up in tech. Getting horses now should do it be but we'll have to be fast as the window of opportunity closes with the advent of feudalism. But the logistics of moving the troops around mean it must be America.
It's a pity Korea and Russia are around; that devalues the free tech that we get with a new age. I don't understand why we went to mysticism; we could have gone for literature, or don't we have writing yet ? Either way, we cannot attack the Americans and at the same time try to get the GL as we do not have enough cities to build a sufficient military otherwise.
Btw, we don't have to conquer the Americans. Taking 2-3 cities is usually enough to get peace concessions. But we need enough cities to build an FP at the very least.

Russia is almost gone. I believe they only have a settler wandering around, looking at the histograph. That leaves us with Korea. It's early in the game, but when it's time, we should get MA's to get Korea.

I will grab the game and try to play tonight! Just went in HOT2 and LK42 so good timing. I will see about getting some horseys rounded up, maybe a few vet archers to go with them. America should have few vulerable cities at the silk site and the wines site that we could grab and stop as suggested and get some concessions.

hotrod

Originally posted by jack merchant


Either way, we cannot attack the Americans and at the same time try to get the GL as we do not have enough cities to build a sufficient military otherwise.




By "GL" do you mean the Great Library?
If so, forget it! Getting a wonder before the industrial age requires a leader.

Originally posted by LKendter



By "GL" do you mean the Great Library?
If so, forget it! Getting a wonder before the industrial age requires a leader.

I agree that it is very dubious to try to get TGL. But it's not impossible. I played a deity game last week where I got TGL at 390 AD :crazyeye: I suggest that we try, but as soon as an AI also starts building, you know you're too late.

I was referring to that game in even thinking it possible to get the library... In my own game, I took a different approach: I captured it :D Of course, you have to be fortunate enough that someone next door builds it for you. Maybe the English would be so kind now that they are in their GA ?
I'd dispense with the archers and build some spearmen instead to accompany the horses and soak up the counterattack. There is, imho, no advantage for us in building archers.

Good point! I will see how this plays out I will try and get some units for possible strike in the near future, maybe not in my ten.

Hotrod

i agree with JM, archers arnt worth it horsies and spears

And I agree with swiftsure. :p Horsemen upgrade to Sipahi

HOT3

1250 BC (0): Diplocheck reveals we are behind Mysticism, Alphabet, writing and map making at least. And writing opens up to a bunch more techs :(. Anyway buy alphabet from the Iroqouis for 80 gold and World Map. Scout around and by Writing for 165 gold and WM from China.

Diplo check reveals that we are behind: MM, CoL, Philo, Math, and Mystc. and quite possibly polytheism as well. :(.

1225 BC (1): Nothing completes but do a complete diplo check to see if we can afforda any tech. Edrine builds spear starts horseman.

1200 BC (2): Tech still requires gpt to get anything.

1175 BC (3): Bursa builds a worker starts a temple. Aydin build barracks starts spearman. can get mysticism for 84 gold. Buy Mysticism from Iroquios for 71 gold, 1 gpt, and WM. Begin 40 turn research on Lit. Realize that the AI may get it way before us but you never know. Can get it in 27 turns at 50% but that would leave 0 income. Elect for 10%.

1150 BC (4): Can buy Map Making for our 35 gold and lots of gpt, not yet. Sell maps for a little gold and move a few civs from Cautious to polite. Cannot afford any new embassies.

1125 BC (5): Germay starts the Great Lighthouse. Amazingly no one has Lit yet

1100 BC (6): Up lux to 10% for 2 turns to avoid revolts in Istanbul, temple is almost completed.

1075 BC (7): Continue to monitor the AI for lit, no one has it.

1050 BC (8): Istanbul builds temple starts horseman. Aydin builds spear starts another. Drop lux back to 0%. 109 gold with 10+ gpt is the going rate for tech this turn. NO deals.

1025 BC (9): Edrine builds horseman starts another.

1000 BC (10): Chinese start the Great Library - Can they trade me for Lit ??? Lizzy and Abe and the Iroquios have it but Koreans and Zulu dont't. Buy Lit for 120 gold , 4 gpt and WM. Sell lit to Zulu for Territory Map and 40 gold. And to Korea for for Territory Map and 90 gold. Neither would give up techs. Change Uskedur to Library wasting 1 shield but will win a culture battle with Chicago. The Temple in Bursa is whipped for 2 citizens to push out culture before going back to a worker farm.

The Tech situation is a tad better with only lagging by Math, Poly, Map Making, CoL, Philosophy and Korea is Revolting to either Republic or Monarchy as we speak.

A few more horseman are in the que but libraries should be pushed soonish, more for culture than tech, research is at 0%, gaining 19 gpt with 159 gold currently in the bank. Managed to buy, Alphabet, Mysticism, Writing and Lit this round, hopefully without completely breaking the bank. Too bad that Lit was not able to be traded for tech :(.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-1000BC.zip

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <===== Playing now
Aggie (on deck)
Borealis
Swiftsure

Don't worry too much about us being backward. It's just not possible at this point to keep up. This should improve later in the game.

By the way. We still have room for a couple of cities. Why wouldn't we use that?

We can squeeze in 2 more I think to the north. They are boarderline flip chances as Phily has already expanded. It may be better to wait for war with Abe to take 2-3 or his cities due north then fill in the last couple of cities after. We can peal off a settler at Istanbul after the horsey completes.

If we want to settler aggressively to the north now.

Got it. I'll finish CG5 first so people there can take their next turn during the weekend, which is necessary given the length of the turns. Aggie, if you have time, feel free to take this one before me if you have time (and if no-one objects).

I'M sorry. Not at home at the moment. I can play tomorrow at the earliest... So JM, looks like you're up...

no problem; will play tonight after I've sufficiently recovered from CG5 :)

Preturn I don't understand the whip in Bursa - it has no overlap with American cities, so it doesn't need the culture. We could have built a library instead, unless I'm missing something ? The Iros want to sell us their tm for tm+50gp, I sell them our wm for 1 gold instead.

975 BC (1) Everyone and his brother start building the Great Library. Bursa builds temple, starts worker. Uskudar builds library, starts barracks. Izmit builds temple, starts worker (after some consideration). Luxes up to 10% to keep Istanbul happy, this does however drop our income to 13 gpt. Buy Philosophy for wm + 160 gold from the Chinese. I'll try to get CoL next to move us toward Republic.

IT The Germans demand and get tm+18 gp. I hate them.

950 BC (2) Istanbul horse-horse. Aydin spear - horse.

925 BC (3) I am a moron and allow Uskudar to riot. A horse is stationed there to serve as MP until we get something going. Unfortunately, Uskudar is now losing the culture batttle with Chicago. Move another horse to Iznik to prevent it rioting next turn.

IT Chinese start the Great Wall. Koreans start the Hanging Gardens.

900 BC (4) Edrine builds horse, starts another. Izmit builds worker, starts spear. I want to buy CoL but everyone wants all our gold and all our gpt for it. Disband one of our exploring warriors. We'll hit the unit support limit before republic.

IT The Germans establish an embassy with us. The Americans want to trade tm's and us to give them 13 gold in the bargain. Sell them the wm for 1 gold instead.

875 BC (5) Bursa builds worker, starts barracks. Istanbul horse -> horse. Uskudar is now ahead in the culture battle.

IT Chinese extort us for tm+20 gold.

850 BC (6) Iznik builds spear, starts horse.

825 BC (7) Disband the other exploring warrior. It is unable to explore anyuthing else without PO'ing someone anyway.

800 BC (8) zzzz

775 BC (9) Aydin, Edrine horse -> horse.

750 BC (10) zzzz


There's 118 gold and 18 gpt to play with; just remember that we have to pay unit support after the next unit we produce. I didn't run a scientist as it would have been fairly pointless; however, it may be better to start spending before everything is extorted away. We cannot wait much longer with declaring war. We may have to go in with 10-12 horses before the AI comes up with pikemen. Every city we capture means 4 gpt in free unit support until we get republic. I am not too sure about the worker actions; Workers are now bringing irrigation to the game square, however this will only come in useful once we have construction and an aqueduct in Istanbul.

For some reason my browser refuses to locate the upload server so I've e-mailed the save to Aggie. I'll be happy to send it to everyone else if so desired.

The whip in Bursa may have been weed but I felt perhaps wrongly that we needed to claim as much as we could away from the Americans. Whipping a library may have given the same effect but the temple helps the unhappiness caused by the whip.

Also wanted to get that city was going back to worker production ASAP but didn't want to neglect culture either. I felt the culture couldn't wait too long and the benifit of the temple is immediate, the library at zero research means nothing. I took the opportunity to get some culture at that city without losing the focus of that particular town (a worker farm). It will grow back quickly and will be on worker production for some time. Sorry if I wasn't clear what the intent was but thought it was right at the time.

The only other question I have is the need for barracks in every city. Bursa may be specializing in settlers or workers for the next few rounds and a barracks may go to waste. There are 4 others cities IIRC that have barracks and can produce vet units.

I think that the discussion is good and will help out every one in the long run.

Hotrod

Good point. The reason I went with a barracks for Bursa is that if we plan on attacking the Americans, we must build military in all our cities, as otherwise we are never going to have enough units fast enough to pull it off. We now have one worker per city, which is indeed barely sufficient. However, the speed at which Bursa can build workers is affected by the whip for now.
I agree that if you're going to use the whip, a temple is probably worth it more than a library. We probably won't really need libraries until the industrial age for anything other than culture.
In any case, Bursa now has 2 extra bg tiles to work with. Maybe it's a better idea to let it grow a bit and peel off workers just before growth. It can become a pretty productive city.

Well that horse is dead ;). Either way if we are going to war it will probably be soon.

One question on the request for tribute. I know it is normal practice in deity to pay without question early but should we consider the distance the AI is from us before paying? Is it easier to pay the gold than to force them to come from the other side of the continent.

For the record the whip was a judgement call and shouldn't hurt us in the long run. I checked out the save and even at size 4 Bursa remains riot free without lux tax.

How boring would these games be without differences of opion anyway ;). Good round Jack!

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <----- playing
Borealis (on deck)
Swiftsure

Got it.

EDIT: upload works again, here's Jack Merchant's save: 750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-750bc.sav)

Originally posted by hotrod0823
One question on the request for tribute. I know it is normal practice in deity to pay without question early but should we consider the distance the AI is from us before paying? Is it easier to pay the gold than to force them to come from the other side of the continent.

Remeber that the AI can get MA's with others, including those close to us. That's what should be avoided and therefore I think it's better to pay. We don't have enough cash to get MA's intead. If that were the case, I would start are war against Korea now and get MA's with America, England and a few others... It would cripple both Korea and America and twenty turns later we could try to attack America... But, we don't have enough money.

When preparing for war with America, what are our immediate objectives? Currently, they're wonder-building, and if at all possible we should catch them right after they complete them to take them for ourselves. Keep in mind that England and Korea wouldn't mind taking a bite out of Abe as well, and would be good ally partners for a 20-turn war if we can grab enough of the American border cities. Allying with Liz would also mean no MA with her and Abe against us, which could be disastrous. I'm looking at the reported AI behavior and thinking that they've probably run out of space right now, meaning that we'll probably be in a war soon anyway.

Also- where is China, and where are the other AI nations located? I know we're saving cash by trying to get the AI to establish embassies for us, but if we're going to get into a war, we have to make sure that our flanks are covered. Maybe I'm being overly paranoid :scan: but if China or the other unmapped AI nations are a hop & skip across the water in the FOW, we'll have to worry about Abe bribing them into harassing our core. The AI will have enough galleys by now to send, and a few swords landing near our capital could severely damage us by the time we could respond to it.

Borealis has a point, but we just didn't have the money for maps or ambassies. maybe we get the money now after our wine-furs deal with Germany.

We need more military before we can think of attacking. I buy Code of Laws from the Iroquois for 8gpt and 116 gold. The barracks in Bursa and Uskudar are almost finished, so I decide to leave it as it is.

IT: Germany and China go to war.

730 BC (1) Istanbul horsemen->horsemen

IT: China joins the race for Hanging Gardens

710 BC (2) :sleep:

IT: Good news, I think. America declares war on the Chinese. We are not the first to die. The Iroquois killed the Russians. Iroquois also want Haning Gardens. Atlanta finished the Great Lighthouse.

690 BC (3) Bursa and Uskadar finished barracks.Bursa starts worker and Uskadar starts horseman. Lux to 30%.

IT: Cascade to other wonders, now the Lighthouse is finished by America.

670 BC (4) Istanbul, Edrine, Iznik, Aydin: horseman->horseman. Izmit: spearman->worker.

650 BC (5) Bursa: worker->horseman. Lux can go back to 20% now Bursa has one pop less.

IT: England wants t/m and 19 gold. I pay.

630 BC (6) :sleep:

610 BC (7) Bursa grew again: lux to 30%

IT: Grand River, Iroquois finshed the Great Library.

590 BC (8) Istanbul: horseman->horseman.

IT: England and America sign MA against China. Zulu and Germany do the same! Seoul, Korea finished the Hanging Gardens. Shanghai, China gets the Great Wall in the cascade.

570 BC (9) Edrine, Uskadar, Iznik: horsemen->horsemen. 2nd wine hooked up. We're losing money, so I sell the wine. For furs and 66 gold to Germany. Lux bar goes to 0%.

550 BC (10) Bursa Horseman->horseman

I didn't attack. Why? Well I thought we still didn't have enough horsemen and we would be on our own. No-one started Sun Szu yet, but that won't take long anymore. The next player has to make a decision: are we going to war with america and try to grab land, or are we stuck with what we have?

We can get a lot of tech, but not republic. I was waiting for that, but still no-one will sell. Bursa builds worker. It's the city that doesn't allow us to keep the slider at 0% when it grows.

EDIT: who knows, maybe there's a beautiful piece of land just across the ocean that no-one has discovered yet (AI doesn't suicide galleys). But without map-making and galleys we won't know...

550 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-550BC.SAV)

Bursa builds worker. It's the city that doesn't allow us to keep the slider at 0% when it grows.

Yeah I know - told you so! :blush:

Just how many horsemen do we have! If Abe is only protected by spears then now has to be the time before pikes. We can also through in a couple settlers out of Bursa to grab a bit more land aggressively against Abe.

Hotrod

I suspect we may be able to attack about now (do we know where China is yet? Maybe Abe has sent his troops that way). The only concern I have is the trade route. If it runs through America and we declare war, our rep is toast.

Jack,

Very good point about the trade route. Really did think I did good by getting luxuries :(

Got it. I'll check on the trade route, and see what the possibilities are for either a) provoking Abe into declaring himself or b) finding another way to trade. If it turns out we have to wait, then we wait and build a settler or two first- unless there is consensus on breaking a deal, I'd rather not ruin our rep this early on.

I don't think we should break the trade deal if we could avoid it. A busted rep is a tough thing to come back from.

Actually, it doesn't matter if Abe is provoked or not. Anything that breaks our trade route with the Germans will be considered our fault, and destroy our rep. Unfair, but that's how it is. I agree that we need to keep our rep intact - we need to be able to buy stuff with gpt.

Yes, this can be a breaking point in the game.... I learned something yesterday but it won't help us further. We have about 13 turns left from that trade deal and in that time Abe will have pikemen and medieval infantry. :mad:

There's only one thing that gives me some comfort now: Jacks' signature...

I just looked at the save - a possibility if we want to proceed with the plan is to acquire mapmaking asap and build a harbor (probably in Istanbul). There are 2 Korean cities that have harbors already and will likely soon be connected if they aren't already. This might be safer than relying on a land route through America in any case.
The alternative is to wait for knights, but by the time we get those, America might have muskets already. At least, we are in for a challenge here :p

We indeed are in a position to buy Map Making. a harbor is a VERY useful improvement, so there will be no loss. Very good thinking :goodjob: You saved my day, a bit...

From the peanut gallery....

If America is at war with another civ, and that civ is ahead of you in tech, you can probably get them to kick in the tech for an alliance against america....

Regardless of the tech situation, you can probably get China to give you some goodies for attacking America.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
From the peanut gallery....

If America is at war with another civ, and that civ is ahead of you in tech, you can probably get them to kick in the tech for an alliance against america....

Regardless of the tech situation, you can probably get China to give you some goodies for attacking America.

That's a very optimistic point of view. I never had a civ pay me for a MA.... But we can check it out of course.

Status report: I've played a few turns, but I haven't been able to get back to them as I've come down with the local flu going around here- if I don't post them within 8 hours of this post, feel free to skip me and go ahead as that means my fever hasn't gone down. Sorry about the delay, but I wanted to let you all know that I didn't forget about the game.

@Borealis: Take your time, hope you feel better :). Swiftsure is up in HOT2 (not playing until today) and on deck here so if you feel up to it I would just assume wait for your turns as chances are he wouldn't get to this game until tomorrow the earliest.

550 BC (0): Map Making is too expensive right now, at 89 gold + 11 gpt, even from the commercial civs, and no good two-for-one deals exist at the moment. Mao is willing to sell his Territory Map to me for 57 gold, and I take it, noticing that with two different alliances against him, seeing major inroads by/against him could show how the wind is blowing amongst the AI. A large chunk of Chinese territory is revealed, and I now know why the AIs are mad at him- he's probably in, or close to, the lead, and will get his Golden Age as soon as he builds a rider. I see iron, horses, spices, gems, incense, and lots of fertile land over there. Hoping that this is not :smoke:, I buy Liz's TM for 4 gold + 2gpt, and the continental situation near us is revealed: England and China are duking it out for control of the area surrounding a large inland lake, with Shaka blocked off by English expansion. China has plenty of cities that can or will develop harbors, and England has London, its capital, on the ocean near us with a harbor already. I'm going to try to play for increasing our gpt and trade possibilities to get a harbor before we go to war, to keep our reputation safe and avoid an English amphibious invasion.

City check: some cities at size 5 need temples, as with size 6 and temples we can keep our cities happy without luxuries, given the current trade. Uskudar and Aydin are swapped to temples, which Uskudar needs anyway to stop the cultural pressure from Chicago. Edrine and Izmit, both of which will grow to size 7 unhappily otherwise, are MMed for shields- later, when we have enough workers, we can let them grow to 8, add a worker to give it an entertainer and make it happy, etc. Right now, they need to slow down as 10% lux rate = 5gpt. That's too much with our total income now at 12 gpt.

There's an English galley sailing around us, but otherwise we appear to be relatively ignored by the AI. We lack embassies with everyone but Germany and America, but I won't build any unless a promising MA possibility apears.

Examining the Military Advisor, I see that we are paying 13 gpt for unit support right now, and every time we build a unit, we are reducing our income. We have 17 horsemen, with one more to build next turn.

530 BC (1): I MM for trade in cities- every extra gpt counts.

510 BC (2): :sleep:

(IT): The Koreans and the Iroquois start Sistine Chapel, meaning that Theology is probably widespread... Abe will have pikes soon, if he doesn't have them now. Istanbul builds a horse, and starts a Courthouse prebuild for a harbor, which we'll have to grab- we can't wait the ~20 turns for our trade deal to run out.

490 BC (3): Uskudar gets an entertainer, as it is now size 6- its temple will be rushed as soon as it costs 1 citizen rather than 2 to do so.

(IT): The Koreans, Chinese, and Americans start Sun Tzu's Art of War.

470 BC (4): We are buying MM ASAP, as size 12 cities w/pikes vs. horsemen=BAD.

(IT): Germany starts Sun Tzu's.

450 BC (5): :sleep:

(IT): England and China start Sun Tzu's, and Germany starts Sistine. The Iroquois start Sun Tzu's.

430 BC (6): BREAK POINT: I want input on how expensive our reputation is- right now we can buy Map Making for 85 gold + 12 gpt from Korea or the Iroquois, and with Shaka finally in the Medieval Age the price won't drop. However, even with cities switched on Wealth for testing purposes, we are only making 13 gpt right now, and have 91 gold in the bank. Every horseman we make reduces our gpt, and America will have pikes soon. Also, when we go into war, we want to avoid England allying with America, which is definitely possible considering Liz's current land situation.

I'm feverish from the flu, and I don't want to start the war and buy Map Making right now in my current state, as I would probably commit much :smoke:. I'm going to post the save, and someone can pick it up and play 5 to pass on to swiftsure, or swiftsure can pick it up and play 15, but I'm out of it.

Personally, in my feverish state, I would buy MM, build the harbor in Istanbul ASAP, and capture as many American cities as I can before Abe gets pikes widespread. We could buy MM at the cost of one more gpt to keep England out of the war, but that means keeping cities on Wealth to avoid a severe deficit. We just barely could have bought MM at the start of my turn without buying the maps, but would have had to wait for a harbor to be built to start the war, and wouldn't know if a second AI amphibious invasion came. This may have been [pimp], and I apologize for it if so- we may have to delay a 'final war' against Abe, taking one or two cities, extract concessions, and then return with Knights. As it is he's probably well-defended with spearmen, and we have just under 20 horses right now.

We are in a bad position, with many productive, assertive AI nations on the same continent, and no free land to claim. An alliance against China may get us a tech, but also risks Mao grabbing us as an easy target with Riders in a player's turn or two- we'd almost certainly have to pay him to stop the war once we started it, unless the other AI pound on him sufficiently. I don't see that happening.

The upload server is extremely slow, but apparently the download completed so I hope this link works: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3_430BC.sav

Okay will go from here :) Hope you feel better soon.

Swiftsure its up to you play 10 or 15 your choice.

Hotrod

Your feverish thoughts sound quite lucid to me, Borealis ! Hope you feel better soon.

I think we may have to ally with the English against the Chinese to get a discount on MM and keep them from allying with the Americans against us. I think 20 horses are enough to capture towns from pikes; not cities, though. Every town we capture will save us 4 gpt in unit support.
We should go in as soon as the harbor as built, and then let the dice fly high !

Sorry guys but i'm going to have to drop all my SGs for a couple of weeks due to a RL crisis.

Sorry to hear that swiftsure. Hope to see you back soon.

Hotrod <===== playing tonight or tomorrow after HOT2
Jack Merchant
Aggie
Borealis (just played 5)
Swiftsure (out until further notice)

@ Jack: I didn't get to this tonight and most likely will not be able to play tomorrow either. Major SG overload tonight. If you have a slow night and want to grab it just post and let me know. If you don't grab it I will try to get to it tomorrow.

OK, I got it and will play today.

Executive summary: I think we may be in trouble

Preturn I decide to jump in with the English vs the Chinese and buy an embassy in London. England is a republic running 60% science, London is producing 5 spt but has the Colossus.
We sign an MA vs the Chinese and in the deal include Mapmaking for 9 gpt. Change Istanbul to harbour, due in 5. We'll go to war in 5. Edrine and Iznik changed back to horseman production. We now have 37 gold in the bank and no gpt. This had better work....
Change the entertainer in Uskudar to a scientist.

410 BC (1) The people are delighted that something interesting finally happens and expand our palace. Zulu start Sun Tzu.

390 BC (2) I buy the American tm for our tm and 20 gold. I did this because we need to have all sea squares visible for a trade route to be viable. Once the harbour is done, we should be able to trade through Korea. Sell our wm around for 8 gold, as with the completion of the temple in Aydin we are running a 1 gpt deficit.

370 BC (3) Korea and Germany ally vs the Chinese. Edrine horse -> spear

350 BC (4) Iznik spear -> spear. A deal apparently expired as we are now making 6 gpt.

330 BC (5) Istanbul produces harbor, Uskudar temple, Edrine spear. Crap, St. Louis just grew to size 7. It is one of my first targets. The die has been cast.

We declare war on America !

One horse dies and one retreats but we take St. Louis, 6 resisters. 2 horses die and 8 retreat as we fail to take Chicago. Horses vs Pikes in cities ---> tough.

Our cities still have furs so the naval trade route works and our rep is intact.

310 BC (6) Our forces retreat from Chicago in good order and without further losses, no American counterattack yet, but a pike shows up from Miami, presumably to pillage. An MMDI appears N of Bursa. Entertainer hired in Iznik so one spear there can prevent the wines from being pillaged. 8 units are in St. Louis to quell resistance.

290 BC (7) Pike moves on the road to St. Louis. Kill it with a horse. Mini-SOD shows up near St. Louis: 2 pikes, 2 MDI. Move a spear into Iznik; entertainer back to work in Iznik.

270 BC (8) Americans drop off a spear and an archer near Iznik. 3 pikes, a spear and 2 MDI now poised to attack St. Louis. Our horses there counterattack, wounding 1 pike and killing another.
Horses moved next to Chicago again, hopefully to distract the Americans

IT American MDI kills spear in St. Louis, another one dies to a horse (!). There being only horses left, the Americans then attack with a pike, which dies to another horse.

250 BC (9) Horse kills wounded MDI, Bursa grows but remains happy. I decide not to attack Chicago but try to starve it first - it's size 7 with at least 3 pikes.

IT Our spear on the wines near Miami defends succesfully against two MDI's. Americans counter out of Chicago with a longbow.

230 BC (10) Kill 3 MDI, 2 pikes and a longbow around Chicago at the cost of 3 horses. Try to attack Miami but after losing one horse, decide we do not have enough troops. Kill an MDI near Miami. The Americans won't talk to us.

Swordsmen are due next turn from Istanbul and Edrine; change them to horses if you like. The American spear and archer near Iznik are still there; I didn't want to attack them with the terrain in their favour. We probably need to take Miami too for this war to be successful - otherwise we'll lose St. Louis to a flip. However, we don't have enough troops to take it.
America hasn't bought any alliances against us yet, fortunately. Even so, we are not in a good position and may have missed the boat. The only alternative to going to war now would have been to disband our army and buy our way to republic. Even then, we would still have been very much in trouble.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-230BC.sav)

Jack, I think you did what you had to do. We started from a difficult spot and did have no option expect for attack imho. We knew it would be very difficult.

Let's see if we can get out of this.

I have it and will try to play and post by tomorrow night.

230 AD (0): Well the war has begun it was inevitable. I am not concerned with the number of units just a bit on how spread out they are. I will try to form up a stack of horsemen to move on Chicago and I am concerned as well that only 1 horseman is moving on Miami. Set Bursa from "wealth" to spear and MM to max shields to get in 2 turns. Trade Korea our last wines 40 gold and WM for silks and gems.

210 BC (1): Istanbul builds a swords starts horse. Same at Edrine. Bursa changed to sword due in 2. Moving swords toward the Chicago and Miami fronts. Retreat the spreadout horsemen near Chicago.

190 BC (2): Aydin builds sword starts another. Germany starts leos :eek: move new sword north toward Iznik.

170 BC (3): Abe dials us up and wants peace for a mere 20 gold, I consider it but decide on 1 more shot at Miami and Chicago.

150 BC (4): Move on Miami and Capture it, there are many units in the area ready to take it back. Try to take Chicago but it holds all horsemen are wounded and retreat. Rather than lose our gains Make peace with Abe. We get MATH, and peace, Abe gets peace, WM and 21 gold. I will let all current miltary projects complete then switch to Libraries.

130 BC (5): Uskudar builds sword start courthouse. Izmit builds library starts catapult. Aydin builds swords starts library. Change Edrine to settler for 1 more city btween Miami and Stlouis.

110 BC (6): Continue with the infrastructure push. Iznik is corrupt so switch to courthouse, switch Miami to library for some needed culture. Korea and America have an alliance vs. China.

90 BC (7): Istanbul builds library start galley. There are still 3 other civs out there that no one has met yet that may be our key to getting back into the game. Recently China completed the SunZu and every one changed to Leos. Continue moving the settler north.

70 BC (8): Germany starts Copernicus', Trade for tech are all too expensive :(. Germany will sell furs for 140 gold but not worth it now don't need the extra lux. Aydin builds library starts horseman.

50 BC (9): Settler is in position for a new city near Miami and St.Louis. A spear is following. Research continues on republic. Most cities will finish libraries next turn. Only 1 turn remains on our alliance with England vs. China, peace can be made with China. Hopefully now that the libraries are done we can start on researching for ourselves soon. I am afraid that we are way behind in tech.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Hot3-50BC.zip

Only played 9 to even up the turns.

Hotrod (just played)
Jack Merchant (swapped)
Aggie <+++++ up now
Borealis (on deck)
swiftsure (out until further notice) any ideas on a replacement??


Hotrod

I got it. I will play today.

EDIT: great job Hotrod :goodjob: We managed to take two american cities, against the odds. We are way behind in tech, but still alive...

EDIT2: I may not be able to play this today, so give pointers if you want to ;)

Great work Hotrod ! I have a feeling we need to sell off the extra wines we now got asap to prevent them from being extorted from us. Also, we'll get back 9 gpt from the mapmaking deal next turn. We should be able to use those wines to draw in another ancient age tech.
Things will get better once we are a republic.

We can couple the extra wines with gold to get a new tech for less. Once we get that extra 9 gold back we have more to work with. Currency may be a good tech to grab next to get some markets going or maybe construction to help with growth. I would steer from Polytheism for now it is no benefit to us.

Once we get republic switch immediately and hope for a short revolution. I think getting some galleys out to possibly suicide may be in order. Astronomy is already learned so they will find the other civs first but if we can by some miracle get there then we may have a shot at getting tech for contact. A very long shot I think.

One other thought may be to loadup some galleys and go at 1 Chinese city with our swordsmen and see if we can get something for peace. Our alliance vs. China is up next turn so we can cancel and make peace without a rep hit but we may want to attempt an attack to see if we can get anything in return.

Preturn: Thanks for the tips. I will attempt suicide galleys, but I don't think that we can get anything from a war with China. I will not get into a fight with them...

IT: Germany want t/m and 27 gold. I've it to them. We can afford war against them, but not against a possible allied force. America might want to use this situation. Germany finishes Leo...

30 BC (1) Tstanbul: Galley->galley. Edrine: lbrary->courthouse. Bursa: library->swordsman. Antalya founded,starts library. We buy currency from Liz for 8 gpt, 87 gold and w/m. Mao wants to make peace for 40 gold and w/m. Just not yet.

IT: Korea finish Copernicus.... :( AND Sistine... :mad:

10 BC (2) :sleep:

IT: The Germans are the first to start Bach.

10 AD (3) Aydin: horseman->harbor. Our first galley goes west.

30 AD (4) Another Galley in Istanbul->marketplace.

IT: Germany and China sign peace

50 AD (5) Bursa: swordsman->courthouse.

70 AD (6) :sleep:

IT: The Koreans are the first to start Smith... :cry:

90 AD (7) Izmit: galley->courthouse. St. Louis: library->courthouse.

IT: America and China sign peace

110 AD (8) Miami: library->courthouse. 1st suicide galley goes west.

130 AD (9) Iznik: courthouse->marketplace. The suicide galley sinks... :(

IT: China wants 40 gold for peace. We are on our own against them, so I accept.

150 AD (10) Uskudar: courthouse->harbor. Couple of forest chops: Antalya is one turn from finishing the libary. Our galley survived and goes further west. A third galley also goes west.

Our lux deal with Korea ends next turn. See what you can do with that... At the moment Construction is very expensive and Republic not for trade. We might wait a turn and see if wines bring Republic on the negotiation table... We need Republic bad.

Two suicide galleys head west. I suggest to send more if those two sink.

150 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-150AD.SAV)

How many turns are on the republic research? It may be worth it to let that finish seeing as we are in it for so many turns already and use the wines to get construction cheap or at least cheaper.

Not really sure is the best right now. The sooner we get out of the age the sooner we at least get a free tech :)

Hotrod

Originally posted by hotrod0823
How many turns are on the republic research? It may be worth it to let that finish seeing as we are in it for so many turns already and use the wines to get construction cheap or at least cheaper.

Good point! We are 12 turns from researching republic. I agree on buying construction when the wine deal expires. Regarding what next? Our best shot is to get to other civs before the rest, like you said...

Got it. I'm going to compare prices for republic when I look at the save- it will probably be better to just finish it, as the AI gives high prices for government tech.

150 AD (0): Diplo check reveals that we can't even buy Republic at current rates- putting all our gold and gpt on the table gets us a 'doubtful' offer result at best. I'm going to wait on buying it, and the next player will have to revolt and deal with anarchy. I notice that Mao has had one city captured by the Koreans since I last played, and another city razed by the English- it seems that the AI is making some headway against him, but as he still has his heartland, and probably Riders by now, we shouldn't count him out. Some cities are MMed to use improved tiles more effectively, and St. Louis is swapped to a temple as we need culture there to stop a flip to Abe.

(IT): We lose one suicide galley.

170 AD (1): We are running research on Republic at 10%, as we can't hurry it without a deficit, and it will be due in 12 turns.

(IT): Renegotiated luxury deal with Wang Kon sends Wines + 243 gold + 6gpt to him for Silks and Construction. We can't get two techs at any price, even forgoing luxuries, and we can't get two luxuries and a tech. I went with the consensus and bought Construction although Polytheism appears to be cheaper, so we can build aqueducts.

190 AD (2): Bursa riots without the extra luxury :blush:, but scrolling ahead stops other size 7 cities from rioting. They get entertainers, as we cannot afford luxury tax right now.

230 AD (4): Antalya's borders expand.

(IT): A lot of American spearmen and swordsmen head back home across England, glimpsed briefly by the residents of Antalya. Our second suicide galley sinks.

250 AD (5): Production of more suicide galleys started in Istanbul.

280 AD (8): (IT): Germany starts Magellan's Voyage. :spank:

290 AD (9):

(IT): I see a Korean galley go in the ocean- they must have Navigation as well.

300 AD (10): Not much happening, but I want the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_300ad.zip) to notice that the wines deal is up with Lizzie in this or the next interturn, and if we can, we want Polytheism with it. Republic is due in 3 turns, and we're making better gpt due to markets in some cities. St. Louis should be whipped to build a temple before we revolt if we can do it at the cost of 1 citizen, and other cities will require careful management with the lux slider.

The situation at 300 AD:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_300ad.JPG

Hotrod (on deck)
Jack Merchant
Aggie <------ Playing now
Borealis (just played)

After all the swapping and skips I think this order is correct.

Aggie played after me, so I think I should actually be up now, or if you want to go with the original turn order, you are up yourself (Aggie played the turn before Borealis)

Your right I will try to get to it tonight

Hotrod<---- playing now
Jack Merchant (on deck)
Aggie
Borealis

Hot3

300 AD (0): I remind myself that any hole can be climbed out of before I even look around. Here goes. Expect an uneventful turn with Republic just 3 turns away. change Bursa entertainer to taxman same goes for Miami.

310 AD (1): Aydin builds market starts aqueduct. Our wines deal to England is up and I contemplate our next deal. Do we need another lux now or should I use the wines to get cheaper techs. England will give up Poly for wines and 8 gpt. I opt for 5gpt and 40 gold lump sum. I don't want to get short during our revolution. We are finally in the middle ages and pick up Monotheism. Forgot this was 1.14 and was hoping for Feudalism.

320 AD (2): Edrine builds market starts granary. Uskudar builds harbor starts aqueduct. Izmit builds courthouse starts aqueduct. Whip the temple in St.Louis.

330 AD (3): Learn Republic and immediately revolt. St. Lousis builds temple start courthouse. Abe is building Shakespeare's Theater. We only drew 4 turns!! Could've been much worse.

360 AD (6): Korea builds Bachs and the many changed to Smiths or Shakes. Notice Zulus lack Theology , will try to buy Theo and trade for something for Shaka.

370 AD (7): The new Rebulic of the Ottomans. Cities require 20% lux, a lone scientist and income of 28 gpt. Germany builds Shakes, starts Newtons. Germany build smiths as well.

380 AD (8): Iznik build market starts library. Income is upto 37 gpt.

390 AD (9): Istanbul builds galley starts aqueduct. No one will trade anything !! :hmmm:.

400 AD (10): Bursa builds Market and set cathedral. Even with 172 gold and making 43 gpt no deals can be made. We may consider now building a few more embassies and eventually having enough gold to steal tech.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_400AD.zip

Nice turn hotrod. Well, we are waaaay behind. I've never been in this situation and I want to learn were this goes to. Are we able to get out of this?

One thing we can surely forget: the Nationalism slingshot...

got it. Expect my turn later today.

Way behind about sums it up. I was hoping to at least get Theology to trade with the Zulu but that was out of the question as well. Thankfully we are a republic now.

How many swords and horsemen are required to take a couple English cities? They look to be the most vulerable. I don't think attacking size 12 American cities is an option with out cannons.

No luck either with our galleys?

Preturn Move two swords fom Antalya to St. Louis to reduce the flip risk. Disband 4 regular warriors that are now no longer needed as MP. All our gold and gpt only brings us up to 'close to a deal' for theology. Speed up the aqueduct in Aydin by 2 turns by working hills instead of grassland (food box will still fill up before completion).

410 AD (1) The Zulu have Theology just when the Korean wines for silks deal came up for renegotiation. Since all known civs now have theology, I buy it anyway from the Koreans. Silks and theology come our way in exchange for wines, 33 gpt and 200 gold. I swap the library in Iznik for a cathedral.

420 AD (2) Taxman hired in St. Louis to prevent it from rioting.

430 AD (3) Yet another suicide galley sinks. I think we would have been better off not to bother with these and have built the aqueduct in Istanbul earlier. Also, the Koreans now have contact with the Japanese and the French. I take a gamble and :
- buy contact with the Japanese for 12 gpt and 50 gold.
- sell the Japanese currency for contacts with the Vikings, the French, and a territory map.
- sell the French currency and construction for monarchy, wm and loose change.
- Sell the Vikings currency for wm+26 gold.
- buy Printing Press from the Iros for all contacts, WM and 70 gold.
- sell Printing Press, all contacts and the WM to the Zulu in exchange for Feudalism.
- sell the Chinese WM + 2 contacts in exchange for WM, furs and 12 gold.
- sell the Americans WM + all contacts for 6 gpt and 138 gold.
- sell the Germans the remaining contact for wm + 19 gold. The Germans are rich.
- sell the Koreans WM + contact with the Vikes for 40 gold.
- sell the English contacts and WM for WM, 5 gpt and 22 gold.
- sell the WM around for 35 gold.

I spend most of the proceeds on embassies with the Koreans, the Chinese and the Zulu. Our new contacts are poor and backward; France is a 2-tile island, they have evidently been at war with the Japanese. This is not good news as we cannot buy in at last-civ prices for the foreseeable future.

440 AD (4) Edrine granary -> cathedral :sleep:

450 AD (5) :sleep:

460 AD (6) I notice we have not hooked up our second iron. Even though nobody needs it, I'm going to hook it up just in case.

470 AD (7) American musket spotted.

480 AD (8) Istanbul, Aydin aqueduct -> cathedral

490 AD (9) The people expand the palace. Americans start Newton's :eek: MM several cities for growth (should have done this before, we have no need for production whatsoever at the moment)

500 AD (10) St. Louis courthouse -> market. The Americans complete Magellan's. I irrigate over some more mines near Iznik and Aydin. I cleared some forests there as well.

Our wines deal with the English expires next turn; see if you can make a deal for Education with them, as the Zulu still lack it. Our current treasury is not enough to buy it. I suggest continuing the irrigation projects until all our cities are size 12.

The English have knights running around and are our best trading partner - I don't know if they have muskets but I would not be surprised.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-500AD.zip)

[dance] :goodjob: Well done Jack! Getting contacts and techs were great that was excellent. At least we aren't last in tech anymore :lol:! Is that a good thing ???

I have recently learned the power of gold. (epic 25) and if we can get a strong economy with markets, all size 12 cities, and lots of gold per turn income then we may be able to buy/scratch and steal our way to the industrial age, the Nationalism slingshot may work after all as long as we can stay ahead of Japan, France and Vikes. Don't research unrequired techs then trade our free tech for the rest. Will it still work?? We'll have to see.

Hotrod

It was a pity epic 25 was v1.21, I'd have loved to play that one.

It would probably have been better if the new contacts had been a little more advanced. Maybe we should just gift them republic to increase their value as trading partners. As it is, they are penniless and drive up tech costs for us.
It's a good thing the Zulu don't have education yet - with some luck we can do a 2for1 to get engineering and chivalry. Alternatively, we might skip chivalry altogether if we can get more gold that way. However, that does mean we will remain defenseless against the Americans.

I think skipping chivalry may be wise just to save gold. Knights are more offensive and I don't think we will be the aggressor in any war until Military tradition. Getting Guns before we get attacked is a must. Lets pray for saltpeter.

I am now right? Got it for tomorrow.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <---- playing now
Borealsi (on deck)
OPEN SPOT

I am NOT interested myself, but is the open slot for another deity novice? Or are you hoping for a vet and trying to dig out of the major tech hole you guys are in.

Do you know anyone with shovel??? :lol:

I did my best to trade in my 10 turns. But the only techs I could get were education for a lot of gpt and engineering for education. In the next 10 turns a couple of deals will expire. We will then have cash to do new trading.

IT: China and Iroquois make peace. Korea finishes Newton.

Turn 1 (510 AD) Bursa: cathedral->horseman. Iznik: cathedral->library. Izmit: aquaduct->harbor. The english want to have everything for Education. I give it: 43 gpt and 241 gold. The Zulu give us Engineering and 3 gold for Educations.... not a great deal... The Vikings gets our republic for future trade...

Turn 2 (520 AD) Uskadar: aquaduct->marketplace.

IT: Germany declares war on the Chinese.

Turn 3 (530 AD) Bursa: horseman->university.

IT: The Iroquois demand tribute: I pay.

Turn 4 (540 AD) ZZZ

Turn 5 (550 AD) ZZZ

IT: Germany wants a tribute: I pay...

Turn 6 (560 AD) Iznik: library->university.

Turn 7 (570 AD) ZZZZ

Turn 8 (580 AD) ZZZZ

Turn 9 (590 AD) Antalya: temple->courthouse. Bursa: university->pikeman.We just do not have enough gpt at the moment to trade tech. My deal in turn one was very expensive... However. It got us two techs.

Turn 10 (600 AD) St. Louis: marketplace->university.

600 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/HOT3-600AD.SAV)

I'd suggest holding off on building universities, except in cities that are culturally threatened. Each university costs 2 gpt to maintain, and we aren't going to research anything anytime soon. We should buy banking next; we can use the universities as prebuilds as soon as we start looking likely to afford it (the next player should have an extra 33 gpt to play with in the first turn).
It'll be interesting to see whether we can survive this
:D

Got it.

600 AD (0): Diplo check shows that Japan has Chivalry to trade, and lacks both Education and Printing Press. We have 23 turns left on Chivalry currently, and we could make a straight-up trade Chivalry for Education if necessary. I decide to wait to see if Tokugawa is researching it before trading- as if he is going the lower route, we could get something more expensive. If the price for Education drops in the next turn, I'm trading while we can and moving our research to something else. The Vikings, of course, lack tech, but have nothing to trade for.

City Check: Iznik is the only city that has nothing left to build except a university and a colosseum, and it is left on university, while other university builds are swapped to cathedrals, which will do us more good in both culture and happiness. Iznik itself is due to build the university there in 5 turns, and is left to finish the project due to a waste of shields otherwise.

Hmm... we are currently making 24gpt with 20% luxuries, and could make 45gpt with 10% luxuries. Once a few cathedrals complete, we'll be better off, and if necessary, we should even consider colossea if we don't have anything else to build, if that would allow us to drop the tax altogether. I can't do anything right now, but I note this as an option.

(IT): America and Germany sign a military alliance against China. American muskets roam around the edge of our border.

610 AD (1): Bursa pike->pike. Izmit Harbor->Market.

(IT): Renegotiated deal with Wang Kon reveals that we get no tech at this time, but we do get Silks, Gems, and his World Map for Wines. This will allow the lux slider to drop appreciably.

620 AD (2): Edrine Cathedral->pike. Germany starts Universal Suffrage. :eek: Education to Japan for Chivalry, WM, and 4 gold.
Lux tax dropped to 10%. Invention started.

(IT):

630 AD (3): Bursa continues producing pikemen, and will do so until it is noted. We lose our supply of Furs. Invention bought from England, at cheapest price, for 33gpt, 267 gold, and our WM. Research started on Gunpowder with one scientist- we are now making 36gpt. Acquiring this tech is high priority, as if we end up with no saltpeter we are screwed, royally and probably irreversibly. Istanbul gets a clown for a turn to prevent rioting until the cathedral is built.

640 AD (4): Istanbul Cathedral->pike. Edrine keeps building pikes.

650 AD (5): Iznik University->pike. Aydin Cathedral->Courthouse.

(IT): Iroquois and Germany sign a military alliance against China. American units cut across our territory on their way to China. German galleons sail towards China. Mao is screwed if he doesn't get Nationalism soon.

660 AD (6): More cities start producing pikes. Miami Market->Harbor. Uskudar Market->Cathedral.

(IT): Germany and Scandinavia sign an MPP.

670 AD (7): :sleep:

680 AD (8): Our workers are almost done with improving our territory until we get Rails. Pike-producing cities start sending excess pikes to cities not yet done with production. Some spears disbanded into pike production.

(IT): Germany and China sign a peace treaty.

690 AD (9): :sleep:

(IT): Shaka offers me Music Theory for 12 gold and I turn it down, as it isn't worth it. :lol:

700 AD (10): Judgement call for the next leader (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_700ad.sav) to make: Mao lacks iron, but will he die in 20 turns and ruin our rep? A straight Iron-for-Gunpowder deal is now finally available, but he's under assault from the other civs. If we're going to do it, we have to do it now, before the AI could finish him off...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3_ad700.JPG

Suffrage ? :eek: :cry: At this pace they'll have tanks before we have Sipahi ! I'd take the iron for gunpowder deal - it's not like we have anything to lose at this point....

I got it!

700 AD (0): Before I started playing I was thinking why the heck are we soo far behind. Was there 1 thing that contributed to our lack of tech and getting completely blown away by the AI. We all have enough experience to realize that our tech research will almost always behind in the Ancient times, maybe catchup a bit in the Medieval era and surely by the industrial era. What gives here.

2 thoughts that I have at the moment. Has anyone realized who all our opponents are and what they have in common.

Russia
America
Zulu
Iroquios
England
Vikings (though not a factor in the early tech pace)

I think the only other Expansionist civs are the Mongols and Arabs. Imagine the 6 scouts each popping on average 2 huts each and getting tech 75% of the time (not sure what the true number is for the AI scout). Out of 12 huts the will get 9 techs for free. Sure they may get the same techs. They will have also made contacts very quickly 2 times as fast as we did just based on movement alone. Contacts means trades and trades mean even faster tech pace. And just for good measure they have a leg up on Pottery and early granaries. I don't know if the AI knows the importance of a granary but I would think they have a good idea ;).

It doesn't hurt that 2 other non-expansionist civs (Korea and Germany) are scientific pushing the tech pace even more with free techs and cheap libraries.

Well all I can say is no wonder we are scratching our head going "I know this is Deity but this is ridiculus" At least thats what I was saying.

Okay now my turns.

Pre-turn: Okay I decide to trade the iron to China:

WE GET: Astronomy, furs, Music Theory a ROP and WM

WE GIVE UP: Iron, 43 gold and 5 gpt (my feelingon the gpt vs. straight up gold was if he does get killed I wanted the ROP so I could drop a couple settlers in china to claim some land)

Trade Astronomy to Japan for Gunpowder and 9 gold.

Trade China Saltpeter and 45 gold for Navigation.

Trade Zulu Astronomy and 14 gpt for Banking.

Trade Zulu Navigation, 32 gpt and 199 gold for Chemistry.

Trade Japan Navigation for ivory.

With 2 new lux our lux slider is now at 0% and our income is at 42 gpt despite paying out quite a bit to the Zulus. Also of now the wines and gold deal to England expires next turn. we may get out of the Middle ages soon enough.

Change Istanbul, Bursa, Edrine and Iznik to Banks.

Now I can press enter.

710 AD (1): Now our gpt is up to 86 gpt because the English wines and gold deals have expired. I have extra wines but no takers. England has there own now :(. I want Metallurgy now but can't get it yet. Maybe next turn but it has to be before the zulus as they have Physics and I will trade Metallurgy for Physics.

720 AD (2): Izmit builds market starts Bank. Now for the :smoke: trade wines, 80 gpt :eek:, and 150 gold to China for Metallurgy. Even with everything but the kitchen sink I can't get physics. Its a no go???

730 aD (3): Adyin build courthouse starts bank. Now I can afford Physics, trade Zulu 16gpt, 16 gold and Mettalurgy for Physics. NOw that I have broke the bank it will be quiet trading for a few more turns.

740 AD (4): zzzzz we're still broke.

750 aD (5): Japan demands Chemsitry and I refuse. Dial him up and trade Chemistry for Economics. He has no gold or I would sell him techs.

760 aD (6): St. Louis builds cathedral starts bank. I consider a MPP with America now that they are no longer at war with china. With no gold to speak of decide to hold off for now.

770 AD (7): First Bank completes in Bursa decide to get some muskets built as we don't have the gold for upgrades. Bizzy got caught planting a spy. The bank increase our gpt from 10 to 24gpt. Iznik is at size 12 now and set to zero growth shaving 1 turn off the bank. Decide to sell physics to Japan for 9 gpt, 20 gold an WM.

780 AD (8): Korea and Iroquios start Sufferage. Zulus have Democracy but we need to see what tech they will get next ToG or Magnetism.

790 aD (9): zzzz nothing to report.

800 AD (10): Bursa builds Musket starts another. Iznik builds bank starts musket. Income up to 48 gpt. Antalya builds courthouse starts aqueduct.

The details:

lone scientist on ToG (33) turns away. There is 149 gold in the bank, +48 gpt. 47 gpt more in 3 turns when whatever we were paying to England runs out. We are paying many gpt to the Zulu and to the Chinese. But I was able to pickup Guns, Astronomy, Navigation, Banking, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Music Theory, Physics, Economics and 2 new Luxuries

I think it is worth it!

A few more banks are almost completed and help our bottom line considerably they have to be a priority and I think there are only 2 or 3 cities without a bank started. I would also try to build muskets fresh and forego the upgrades and save the gold for tech deals. At some point soon we may want to end all gpt deals and allow that almost 200 gpt we are paying out add to the bank and fund some covert research projects :).

My goal this round was to play catch up and we are a bit closer but still a bit behind. At least our UU is right around the corner. I think we could trade back for MT after we change eras.

here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-800ad.zip

We can use trades with Either Japan or Zulu to get the last tech, Buy what they don't have then trade the new tech and gold for what they have.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant <--- playing now
Aggie
Borealis
OPEN

Originally posted by hotrod0823
We are paying many gpt to the Zulu and to the Chinese. But I was able to pickup Guns, Astronomy, Navigation, Banking, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Music Theory, Physics, Economics and 2 new Luxuries

I think it is worth it!


I think so too. Great turn hotrod! We might even have the Sipahi in time :)

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Wow! A great round... we'll have a fighting chance at least now to get the Sipahi and take out the AI, once we get our gpt back.
Hopefully once we get Sipahi we can go after either America/England and catch up to the AI via pointy stick method. We were unlucky in the other AI civs being mostly expansionist/scientific early on, but having two sources of saltpeter is a lifesaver for us. (I'm assuming we have at least two, given that you traded away one and mentioned building muskets shortly afterwards.)

Wild speculation: When we do get Sipahi, go after Abe first, as he's already Furious with us, and has some nice territory. Then possibly Liz, depending on our military resources. Keeping Korea and the others out of it will be the trick- once we have an attack force, go on a buying spree with gpt to ensure that our creditors stay neutral.

Also, as we get more powerful, try to keep an eye on Germany, as Biz is constantly annoyed at us, and we do not want Deity RoP to mean Panzers rolling across our land. I believe the 'AI attitude' article mentioned that deals every 20 turns help the relationship, and I'm sure Biz would just love to buy maps of the beautiful Ottoman lands at least once in every player's turn. :p

Superb trading, Hotrod :thumbsup: !

Got it.

Executive summary: We are still in it, and on the whole, our fortunes have taken a turn for the better

Preturn Everything looks good. The only change I make is wake up some workers near Izmit and start irrigating some more. That is probably another error we made; not allowing some cities to grow fast enough.

810 AD (1) Edrine builds banks, starts musket. MM it to produce 2 gpt extra for unchanged production time. I renew the wines for silks and gems deal with Korea. They throw in 2 gpt too, but I cannot get a tech. Nevertheless, we need those luxes and the deal is done.
Diplo further reveals the Zulu have military tradition. I'm not going to buy it, it will come along once we trade off our free tech.

820 AD (2) :sleep:

830 AD (3) Bursa musket -> musket. Miami harbor -> temple. Our income jumps to 112 gpt.

840 AD (4) Istanbul bank -university. Iznik musket -> knight (Sipahi in waiting). The Zulu finally have magnetism, so I buy ToG from the Iro's for 440 gp and 70 gpt. ToG and 19 gpt go to the Zulu in exchange for magnetism. I sell Nationalism to the Zulu for Mil Tradition, democracy and 16 gpt, all they had to offer. I had hoped for more but the price for military tradition for us would have been ~90 gpt and we need it anyway, so it wasn't all that bad. Japan has nothing to offer for nationalism.
Bursa and Edrine set to build Sipahi, Edrine and Istanbul set to build cannon. Lone scientist set to research medicine.

IT Germany, Scandinavia declare war on the Chinese.

850 AD (5) :sleep: I sell monotheism to the French for wm + 11 gold out of pity.

IT The Germans complete Universal Suffrage.

860 AD (6) Uskudar cathedral -> bank. Aydin bank -> galleon. My thinking is that we might fill it up with some Sipahi and get a GA against the Chinese once our deals run out. I spend 100 gold to upgrade a pike to a rifle in Uskudar as there is an American cav fortified on the border.

IT Something to keep in mind - the Americans sign an MPP with the Germans. As a consequence, the Americans declare war on the Chinese.

870 AD (7) Edrine Sip - Sip Iznik cannon - Sip

IT Germany signs the English, Japanese and French to alliances against the Chinese. Korea declares war on the Chinese on its own accord. Oh well, we only need them to live for 4 more turns, which is when all our deals will have run out.

880 AD (8) The Chinese have somehow researched steam power before nationalism ! We trade it right away (getting Free artistry in the deal for the sake of completeness). Even better news, we have one coal too, conveniently located near Iznik so we can build the Iron Works! Iznik is swapped straight away and workers begin construction of railroads.

IT Germany signs the Iro's in against the Chinese too.

890 AD (9) :sleep:

900 AD (10) Sell Nationalism to the Japanese for ivory, 29 gpt and 40 gold. Swap Istanbul to worker - we need more of these. I suggest peeling off workers of other size 12 cities with a full foodbox as units complete.

I did not do diplo at the end of the last turn as I didn't want to tie the next players' hands. There is an expired deal with the Chinese on the table, among others. Also, I think there may be a 2for1 available with Communism and Industrialization. The Germans just got Electricity. I'd strongly recommend not getting into any more 20 turn deals with the Chinese as nearly everyone is at war with them.
Use the workers to improve Iznik first, as it is our best chance of snagging ToE. A random plan is to do some more Sipahi upgrade and go after the English to get a GA. We do not have any active deals with them and we cannot go after the Americans before their MPP with the Germans has expired. The Germans are insanely rich and will buy alliances against anyone who gets on the wrong side of them. An alternative is to get an MA and a ROP against the Chinese to trigger the GA which may land us ToE.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Hot3-900AD.zip)

Great job guys! I got it. I will play tomorrow.

We may be in great position for a well timed Golden Age. Sip should hold up okay against rifles. We may want to consider a MPP with Germany or America just to keep them out of whatever war we get into.

Hotrod
Jack Merchant
Aggie <---- playing now
Borealis
CivGeneral

Is tere enough room for one more, I am trying to get into Sirp's Deity TDG. I hope this SG would help me improve my chances :).

I am currently Playing a Solo Deity Game at the moment :).

Your up after Borealis !!

Welcome aboard!

Hotrod

Thank you Hotrod :). I hope this would get me into Sirp's Deity TDG. Even If I have to *Grumble* Play a Shaddow Game from Sirp's game *Grumble*

Don't be too concerned about sirp's deity game. You will be surprised how much you will pick just by reading and playing along.

From actualy playing in this SG and Shaddowing Sirp's Deity TDG. I hope in htis SG there would be Stragity Discussions and have Comments be made up :).

Welcome aboard, CivGeneral! Most of the team isn't as long-winded as I am ;) but we do try to discuss strategy and other issues in between turns. Right now, there's not too much to talk about as we're waiting for Sipahi to help us... acquire some room to grow. Later we'll have to decide on when and how to lay the :hammer: down on the AI.

Speculation now that we've climbed to the edge of the pit:

Is it still too early to discuss possible victory conditions? Domination would be difficult, unless we kept Germany out of it, as Panzers are quite annoying. Diplomatic would be an option if we can get the UN, and we can get rid of America, as Abe will hate us forever after invading him. Spaceship would be extremely difficult with our current tech position, even if we get ToE, as Germany will also probably get Rocketry when we jump to the Modern Age. Culture is impossible, and I'd rather not go for conquest instead of domination. Either way, claiming America would be a good idea to start off with, providing us more or less centralized territory, and eliminating a Furious Abe. If we can get to him before he grabs Replaceable Parts, it's doable with enough Sipahi, especially if we bring in cats/cannon to back them up. We'll need the bombardment for the size 12+ cities.

Welcome civgeneral!

Borealis, I would try to go for the diplo win. Even with America I'm not too concerned. Should that fail, then I think anything goes...

Originally posted by Borealis
Welcome aboard, CivGeneral! Most of the team isn't as long-winded as I am ;) but we do try to discuss strategy and other issues in between turns. Right now, there's not too much to talk about as we're waiting for Sipahi to help us... acquire some room to grow. Later we'll have to decide on when and how to lay the :hammer: down on the AI.

Speculation now that we've climbed to the edge of the pit:

Is it still too early to discuss possible victory conditions? Domination would be difficult, unless we kept Germany out of it, as Panzers are quite annoying. Diplomatic would be an option if we can get the UN, and we can get rid of America, as Abe will hate us forever after invading him. Spaceship would be extremely difficult with our current tech position, even if we get ToE, as Germany will also probably get Rocketry when we jump to the Modern Age. Culture is impossible, and I'd rather not go for conquest instead of domination. Either way, claiming America would be a good idea to start off with, providing us more or less centralized territory, and eliminating a Furious Abe. If we can get to him before he grabs Replaceable Parts, it's doable with enough Sipahi, especially if we bring in cats/cannon to back them up. We'll need the bombardment for the size 12+ cities.

Thanks, I have heard many good things about the Sipahi :D. I just hope that Sirp pops in here and checks on us former Sirp Monarch TDG ;) :).

It's never too early to discuss possible/desirable victory conditions :)

I agree on avoiding conquest, as that would just be far too much work.

Domination would not be impossible, as the German territory is quite small and we woulld not be forced to fight the Germans until the very last (after MA, probably). We could start with America, just remember Abe has an MPP with the Germans at the moment. England would be an easier target, and we could build an FP in that direction without a leader (in St. Louis or Antalya for example). On the other hand, their territory isn't quite as juicy as that of the Americans. However, we only have 2 cannon and and 3-4 Sipahi at the moment (not counting about 10 horses that we can upgrade). I very much doubt that we can get at anyone before Rep Parts; for all we know, it might be around already.

The best way to get a GA at the moment is to sign an MA and ROP with the English against the Chinese after our deals expire (if they live long enough for us to get there).

I don't think space would be quite as difficult as you say; however, we will probably have to go to war in order to increase our economic strength for buying/stealing spaceship techs. The big advantage here is that the AI's don't prebuild and we do. Also, the Koreans get a free tech too. We probably won't do our own research even in the modern age - we'll just have to buy/steal it all. In any case, ToE will be crucial to get parity before then and increase our stealing funds.

Diplo: This may be hard as, while we haven't really antagonized anyone other than Abe, no-one else has any grudges against each other either (except for Mao, but he'll be dead by then). If the world hasn't erupted into WW1 before Fission comes around, I don't even know if we can win a vote. We'll have to build it regardless simply to avoid losing.

One thing I just realized from reading RBE1- the Uncanny X-Men (see how you learn from reading other games, CivGeneral ? ;) ) is that if we were to grab ToE and Hoover, the combination would give us a GA as well without having to go to war ! In that case, we would be in an excellent position to grab tanks before the Americans.

Final note: Now that steam is around, I should emphasize that we need far more workers - about 8 more at least. We can always add them back into our cities after hospitals. Also, we may want to try and save up some money so we can rush a factory and coalplant after Iznik is done building the Iron Works.
(All this to reassure Borealis that she is not the only long-winded member of the team :D )

Hmm, Steam. Hmm, We should start by Building a Deasent Railroad Network so that we can quickly move our trops anywhere within out Empire :).

Well, duh :) (as long as Iznik gets improved first)

From reading over the thread again, I think we made one crucial mistake in building the suicide galleys. Those set back the aqueduct in Istanbul by 33 turns in all and robbed us of a sizable amount of gpt. Not that that would have let us completely catch up, but it might have helped us get there earlier.