View Full Version : Free Palace Jump


DaveMcW
Mar 12, 2003, 01:14 AM
When the capital city is razed or abandonned, each city in the empire scores
3 points per national citizen
1 point per foreign citizen
1 point per neighboring town (1-6)
2 points per neighboring city (7-12)
3 points per neighboring metropolis (13+)
1 point per military unit
The city with the most points is the new capital!

A neighbor city must yours, and within 8 tiles walking distance from the target city (a 17x17 square). The old capital does not count as a neighbor.

If there is a tie for the most points, the palace jumps to the first city in the database, which is usually the oldest city. After some old cities have been razed the database gets out of order and it's impossible to tell where the palace will go in a tie.

Edit: I multiplied all the points by 3 to make the formula easier to work with. Some of the discussions in this thread use the old numbers as fractions of 3.

DaveMcW
Mar 12, 2003, 01:14 AM
Example from GOTM16

I finished the Forbidden Palace in Antium a few turns ago, now I want to jump my palace far away to Kyoto. I add my road-building crew to Kyoto, bringing it to size 5. Then I abandon Rome.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/palacejump1.jpg

(5) Kyoto
(1/3) Ravenna 2
(1/3) Pisae 3
(1/3) Tokyo 5
6 points

(4) Neapolis
(1/3) Cumae 3
(1/3) Veii 4
(1/3) Antium 4
(1/3) Pompeii 7
(1/3) Tokyo 7
( 0 ) Nara 9
( 0 ) Pisae 9
5+2/3 points

(4) Veii
(1/3) Antium 3
(1/3) Neapolis 4
(1/3) Nara 5
(1/3) Pompeii 5
(1/3) Cumae 7
( 0 ) Tokyo 9
5+2/3 points

So Kyoto is the new capitol!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/palacejump2.jpg

The southeast settler could have built a city, giving Veii and Neapolis another 1/3 point and causing a 3-way tie. Kyoto would still win because it was founded in 4000 B.C.

I did not actually cut it this close in my submitted game. I waited 1 turn for Neapolis and Veii to drop down to size 3 and let Kyoto grow to size 6.

Yndy
Mar 12, 2003, 01:30 AM
Good job Dave. Yet another secret uncovered.

Kemal
Mar 12, 2003, 03:05 AM
very useful stuff, superb post Dave :goodjob:

Darkness
Mar 12, 2003, 04:00 AM
Interesting post Dave! This could prove very useful for me! :goodjob:

Cartouche Bee
Mar 12, 2003, 09:59 AM
Have you tried that theory when you jump the palace let's say 20-30 squares away?

I've found the safest way is just have all the other cites less than size three and you jump to the target you seeded.

Cartouche Bee
Mar 12, 2003, 10:27 AM
I should probably provide a more specific type test that I'm sure breaks this formula. Let's first of all say there are no neighbor cities (which I was not testing but looks like a very good way for the computer to help pick a new palace) involved that are close enough to have effect on the formula. If you have a city say 6 squares from the palace size 4 with 100 culture and another city size 5 and no culture and 30 squares away, does the palace jump to the size 5 city? The last time I ever tinker with this (about a year ago), it would jump to the size 4 city with 100 culture. IIRC, even if the other city was size 10 it would jump to the size 4 city. I believe that distance and culture also play a part in the calculation that determine where the jump goes.

DaveMcW
Mar 12, 2003, 11:03 AM
Here is one of my test maps (PTW). Try it with and without turning the 2 settlers into towns.

Cartouche Bee
Mar 12, 2003, 11:13 AM
OK, I'll check it out tonight. What version of PTW are you using? I switch mine back and forth so I'll stick to whatever version you are using.

DaveMcW
Mar 12, 2003, 11:30 AM
1.21 (I think). I switch a lot too. :)

Cartouche Bee
Mar 12, 2003, 07:30 PM
Yep, that worked. Seeing is believing, it sure has potential under certain circumstances and this knowledge would have saved me some pop. points and complexities, when I've done this in a game. Thanks.

Hygro
Mar 13, 2003, 12:49 AM
Awsome find man!

Jove
Mar 13, 2003, 03:04 AM
Arrr, the palace jump always bites me in the rear. Maybe this know-how will allow me to harness the power of the palace jump.

Capt Buttkick
Mar 13, 2003, 03:27 AM
Excellent.
I've never used palace jumps cause I could never figure out how make them correctly...
I sure will do it now.

col
Mar 13, 2003, 04:14 AM
Excellent - this answers a long running debate.

Now that the jump is predictable, it means that this is now a viable strategy. The risk was too great in the past that the 'wrong' city would become capital.

The neighbouring city count was the stroke of genius.
:goodjob:

ProPain
Mar 13, 2003, 04:35 AM
Great work :goodjob: This will help me a lot! Thanx

Globetrotter
Mar 13, 2003, 06:21 AM
:goodjob:

:)

NewDestroyer
Mar 13, 2003, 07:27 AM
:worshp::worshp: :worshp:IM NOT WORTHY!!!:worshp::worshp:

Great job figuring this stuff out! Everyday we find more and more about the game thx to analysers like u thx.

Dr Elmer Jiggle
Mar 13, 2003, 07:27 AM
How is the "within eight squares" distance calculated? Is it a "walking" distance or an actual linear distance?

For example, suppose I have a city 8 squares due west of my capital. Is that 8 squares away or 8 * sqrt(2), since it's along the diagonal of the grid squares?

Ram
Mar 13, 2003, 09:31 AM
Good job, you are to be admired, but I have only one question: wouldn't it be easier to just ask the developers?

DaveMcW
Mar 13, 2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Dr Elmer Jiggle
How is the "within eight squares" distance calculated? Is it a "walking" distance or an actual linear distance?

It's simple walking distance, making the effective area a 17x17 square.

cracker
Mar 13, 2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by DaveMcW
It's simple walking distance, making the effective area a 17x17 square.

Note that this is also exactly the same as the original maximum range for air units that was hard coded into the Civ3 game. This 'coincidence' lends even more credibility to the results of your testing. :goodjob:

Inter4
Mar 13, 2003, 12:16 PM
I appreciate your hard work...thanks

Syrinx
Mar 13, 2003, 12:18 PM
Cool discovery.
Figuring out which city becomes the new capital in a point tie is not 'impossible', though. It probably picks, as you said, the first one in the database order. The cities might just be stored in an array, and when you abandon a city, a hole is made at that position in the array. Any new city would then fill in that hole. Now if you keep track of the order (pen and paper) of city creation and abandonment, you can probably figure out exactly what it's doing if you want to satisfy your curiosity. Definitely too much trouble for just playing and enjoying the game. :D

It's possible that all cities in a tie are considered equally (instead of biasing by database order) and then some (pseudo-)random function picks one, which would make it a _lot_ harder to find it.

I have to agree with another poster, you can probably get such information if you just ask the developers.
Sometimes that's not the case, they might not want to answer one question for fear of getting a hundred more. ;)

philippe
Mar 13, 2003, 02:26 PM
Interesting....nice work... now if i got 2 capitals
rome and athena
and i disband paris
and its a tie what should then happen?

Amorphus
Mar 13, 2003, 05:59 PM
Thank you Dave, this will help me keep evil corruption down!
:rant::hammer:

Now I should be able to focus on smiting my enemies and ruling the world :mwaha:

Zachriel
Mar 13, 2003, 06:24 PM
As many players intuitively knew (without the exact arithmetic), the Palace generally jumps to the biggest city in the middle of the most cities. The exact arithmetic will be a great aid in close situations, and yet confirms the old superstitions. :goodjob:

MadScot
Mar 13, 2003, 07:32 PM
If only I'd known this before jumping my GOTM palace to the FP city!!

Amenhotep IV
Mar 14, 2003, 02:52 AM
That's what I've been waiting for :goodjob:
Thanks DaveMcW :)

alamo
Mar 14, 2003, 11:51 AM
I concurr - great work!
:goodjob:

Too bad it doesn't skip a FP city! Those poor dogs will just have to starve to reduce the points.
:eek:

One more thing to look at - there is a list of cities in the locate city tool (ctrl-L?). Possibly this can reveal the tie-breaker decision.
:confused:

anarres
Mar 18, 2003, 04:21 AM
A great secret revealed. :)

Is this the time to mention it as an exploit? :mischief:

Grey Fox
Mar 18, 2003, 07:19 AM
Yeah anarres, jumping the palace sure is an exploit in my book, and a severe one aswell.

This only makes it more advantageous for the player. When I used it I almost always got the palace in the right city (the biggest one). But I havn't used this technique for quite some time.

DaveMcW
Mar 30, 2003, 08:51 PM
I have updated the formula with the correct value for foreign citizens.

CivGeneral
Mar 30, 2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by anarres
A great secret revealed. :)

Is this the time to mention it as an exploit? :mischief:

Hmm, time to mention it in the next Debate :D

dj_tranquility
Mar 31, 2003, 06:48 PM
indeed

Lenvik
Jun 30, 2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Syrinx
Cool discovery.
Figuring out which city becomes the new capital in a point tie is not 'impossible', though. It probably picks, as you said, the first one in the database order. The cities might just be stored in an array, and when you abandon a city, a hole is made at that position in the array. Any new city would then fill in that hole. Now if you keep track of the order (pen and paper) of city creation and abandonment, you can probably figure out exactly what it's doing if you want to satisfy your curiosity. Definitely too much trouble for just playing and enjoying the game. :D


I think this analysis is spot-on. However, I think the pen and paper part is superfluous, I'm pretty sure you can check the "natural ordering" of cities using the scroll ahead feature. Cities are scrolled through in the order that they are placed in the array.

I've noticed many times that when I raze an enemy city and immediately found a new city to replace it, it occurs in the same position in the database as the razed city would have done. So when you found a new city, the first hole in the array is filled. It follows from this that if no cities are ever razed or abandoned, the city database will be sorted by founding date.

WillJ
Jun 30, 2003, 08:25 AM
I guess I'm a little late, but great job, Dave! :thumbsup:Originally posted by Ram
Good job, you are to be admired, but I have only one question: wouldn't it be easier to just ask the developers? Yep, that's my philosophy.... ;)

alexman
Jun 30, 2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by DaveMcW
If there is a tie for the most points, the palace jumps to the first city in the database, which is usually the oldest city. After some old cities have been razed the database gets out of order and it's impossible to tell where the palace will go in a tie.


Isn't the database order the same as the order in which you cycle through your cities using the arrow buttons in the city view? I think so. This breaks the uncertainty of the jump in a tie. :)

WillJ
Jun 30, 2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by alexman
Isn't the database order the same as the order in which you cycle through your cities using the arrow buttons in the city view? I think so. This breaks the uncertainty of the jump in a tie. :) And also the advisor screens, right? (Assuming you didn't specify it to be ordered in a different way.)

DaveMcW
Jul 27, 2003, 03:38 PM
Thanks to oinland's testing of late-game palace jumps, I have done some more research and revised the formula.

Cities (7-12) are worth 2 towns (1-6), and metropolises (13+) are worth 3 towns.

I also multiplied all the point values by 3 to get rid of the fractions.

Hygro
Jul 27, 2003, 06:08 PM
that makes mroe sense as I saw a palace jump recently not quite fitting to your formula.

Moonsinger
Feb 03, 2004, 10:47 AM
DaveMcW,

Nice work!:goodjob: Have you considered teaming up with some of the great programmers here to create a calculator for it. A Palace Jump Calculator would be really really great!:thumbsup:

Longasc
Feb 03, 2004, 12:58 PM
Hi. Great Discovery.

But hey, here all shun reloading and such things.

Is the free palace jump not an EXPLOIT?

Sure, it's a game mechanic, but by all means:

This was not intended to be abused in this way...

bluebox
Feb 14, 2004, 08:44 AM
In a recent game in civ3v1.29, I tried a palace jump, that didn't worked out the way I expected. Not the biggest city got the palace, but another smaller one.
In my case, however, i was able toggle the location of the palace by a single policing unit leaving or entering the smaller city, thus changing the happiness in the city. Therefore, I concluded, the location of the palace in a palace jump depends also on happiness. This seems to be something new in terms of the palace jump formula.

Here is the data from the game:

case #1:
CITY1: size 6; 4 happy; 0 content; 2 unhappy
CITY2: size 12; 5 happy; 0 content; 5 unhappy

CITY1 gets the palace

case #2:
CITY1: size 6; 3 happy; 1 content; 2 unhappy (unit left city)
CITY2: size 12; 5 happy; 0 content; 5 unhappy (identical to above)

CITY2 gets the palace!!

To test the influence of happiness on a palace jump I designed a simple scenario of two identical cities, each size 7, 5 luxuries, and 7 policing units. They had the same distance to the capital that was to be abandoned. The maximum number of military police was changed to 12. With this setting, happiness could be exactly controlled in each city.

The test scenario yielded inconclusive results, however. Cities with less unhappy citizens are more likely to get the palace. A city of 5 content citizens and 2 unhappy citizens succeeds in getting the palace against a city of 4 happy citizens and 3 unhappy citizens. This result doesn't make much sense in the light of the in-game example, where the difference of 1 happy citizen going content changes the location of the palace.

Testing keeps going on.

If anyone wants to get the save game, please feel free to pm me or post here.

The test scenario will only be available to members with a german release, otherwise you cannot use it.

Bamspeedy
Feb 19, 2004, 12:56 AM
I tried a palace jump, that didn't worked out the way I expected. Not the biggest city got the palace, but another smaller one.

So did you reload a turn and try to jump the palace again on the same turn? Note that which city gets the palace is not simply the largest city, but the formula also includes a value for the number of cities within x squares of the target city. If you tried jumping on a different turn, there may have been new cities built that would have changed which city would get it.

ainwood
Feb 19, 2004, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Moonsinger
DaveMcW,

Nice work!:goodjob: Have you considered teaming up with some of the great programmers here to create a calculator for it. A Palace Jump Calculator would be really really great!:thumbsup: Its not really 'similar', but I'll add it to my trade assist. :)

ainwood
Feb 19, 2004, 02:02 AM
OK - Just a question: How confident are people about the 17x17 square? The reason I ask is that everything else internally has the distances between cities calculated as per the corruption distance calculation (as posted in Alexman's thread, which I won't repeat here).

I was just wondering whether its actually a "civ" distance of 8, or perhaps even 6 :hmm:

SirPleb
Feb 19, 2004, 10:50 AM
I can't help with the confidence question re 17x17 - I always leave a bit of an "in case" margin, usually one more citizen than would seem to be necessary in the target city :)

ainwood
Feb 19, 2004, 07:09 PM
Well, the 17x17 seems to work OK in the few trials I did... :)

ainwood
Feb 19, 2004, 08:02 PM
[shameless plug]

I have added a routine to calculate the city that your palace will move to when your capital is adandoned / captured, as per Dave's formula.

It tells you the 'points' for the top-five candidates, so you can tweak those cities as required.

Link is in my sig, or here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1520409#post1520409)

[/shameless plug]

bluebox
Mar 29, 2004, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
So did you reload a turn and try to jump the palace again on the same turn?

yes, the game example describes a reload. i had a save of the turn and went back to it later, because i was curious how i could influence the palace jump. finally, nothing was changed but the moving pikeman. the government is monarchy.

i do not quite understand the results of my test scenario. maybe, this topic is not of great importance anymore, as palce jumps became much less valuable in conquests.

SirPleb
Aug 18, 2004, 01:54 PM
I've discovered another factor affecting the jump destination and it is a beauty.

Add 1 point per military unit stationed in the city!

This factor explains the anomaly reported by bluebox - it wasn't happiness which was changing the destination, it was the pikeman.

This is going to make Palace jumping rather easy in some situations.

BTW, I'm going for a cultural 100K victory in GOTM34. I expect to do a number of Palace jumps ;)

alexman
Aug 18, 2004, 01:59 PM
Whoa, good job!
I wonder if there a limit on the number of units that affect the outcome. If there isn't, then controling the destination will indeed be very easy!

Hygro
Aug 18, 2004, 04:12 PM
great find!

Grille
Aug 18, 2004, 04:23 PM
:goodjob:
That explains a lot!
In a recent C3C game on an archipelago, an AI capital jumped a bit 'strangely'...

SirPleb
Aug 18, 2004, 06:01 PM
I wonder if there a limit on the number of units that affect the outcome. If there isn't, then controling the destination will indeed be very easy!
If there's a limit it is very large.

I suspect there's a rounding issue somewhere. In a test I tried I used three cities - an original capital, a size twelve city and a size one, in a triangle. If I put 31 units (mixture of warriors and archers) into the size one city the capital jumps to the size twelve. If instead I put 32 units into it the capital jumps to the size one city.

Anyway, it seems definite that it is one point per unit. Use a couple of units more than the minimum calculated (or what the heck - just temporarily move in one's entire army as it is advancing :lol: ) to allow for rounding or truncation and for city sequence and I expect the target will be safely locked in.

So now we have another use for obsolete units (all those warriors created by a warrior+settler pump :) ) - use them to drag the Palace around.

DaveMcW
Aug 19, 2004, 10:39 PM
Great discovery Sir Pleb. :) I'm sorry I don't have enough time to verify it myself, but I'll trust you and edit it in anyway.

Smirk
Mar 02, 2005, 07:12 PM
Ahh thats a new tidbit of info, great work SirPleb.

In hindsight that now seems obvious, since if you are losing your capital it would be wise to move it to the best defended city. That is, this system was no doubt coded with the intention of moving when the player is being crushed by the AI.

EMan
Jan 21, 2010, 09:54 AM
Does anyone know what the definition of a "Military Unit" is for Palace Jump purposes?

I have a lot of Explorers/Settlers/Workers I could use if they count as MU's!? :)

AlanH
Jan 21, 2010, 10:33 AM
I think a military unit has to have at least one attack or defence strength point. If so, workers, settlers, scouts and explorers don't count.

EMan
Jan 21, 2010, 01:54 PM
That's what I guessed too..........And CivAssistII indicates the same.

I just wondered if anyone had tested it out(?).........I'm thinking SirPleb discovered the "MU Factor".........But haven't seen him around here for many a year! :)

Spoonwood
Jan 21, 2010, 01:55 PM
I have a feeling you're playing histographic EMan, and maybe it's better to just civil engineer your new palace? Maybe not, I really don't have a clue.

EMan
Jan 21, 2010, 02:04 PM
Well, you're half-right Spoonwood.......I am playing Histographic! :lol:

I have to dump the present Capital as it is located in a hilly/mountainous area that doesn't produce optimal food, so I need to raze it.

I do have a spare MGL but might use that for a Small Wonder later. I could use Civil Engineers, you're right...........But as you know timing/efficiency is everything in HOF Histographicals (Viz. I'd rather have the money from Taxmen than change them to CE's.).........So, a Free Palace Jump is my chosen move...........I just want to make sure it jumps to the right place..............Otherwise, I might be tempted to use up my MGL!! :D