This scenario was built on the basis of a What if? Thanks to el_mencey for the map:goodjob:

Here's an excerpt from the story, I'm still making the larger readme.

What if the British had won the Revolutionary War?

What Really Happened: The American Revolutionary War was decided at the crucial Battle of Saratoga on Oct.17, 1777. Burgoyne’s surrender to Gate’s army constituted the first major rebel victory. It helped gain foreign support for the American cause and provided the impetus for the eventual defeat of the British and the attainment of American independence.

But What If …the Americans had lost this milestone battle and the British had won?

Here is what might have happened: There would have been no United States of America, no Constitution, no Fourth of July. What would there have been instead? In his fascinating book For Want of a Nail, historian Robert Sobel projected the “what if” premise to rewrite the history of the world.
The British under Burgoyne crushed the colonists at Saratoga. Realizing that his inadequacies as commander in chief were ultimately responsible for the defeat, Washington resigned his commission and retired to Mount Vernon. The rebel cause was now hopeless, and in June,1778, the last American forces officially surrendered. Although George III granted general amnesty, nine leaders of the rebellion, including Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Patrick Henry, were executed. Washington was imprisoned for life. In 1782 the British divided the colonies into three confederations-northern, central, and southern-which were known collectively as the Confederation of North America (CNA).
Many rebels still resisted British control, and a group led by James Madison and James Monroe settled in the Texas area, where they established Jefferson. Soon, with the introduction of the cotton gin and the use of slave labor, a cotton economy developed and flourished. By 1816 the Jeffersonians were eager for expansion and intervened in the Mexican Civil War, which had been dragging on for a decade. Under the leadership of Andrew Jackson, they took control of the Mexican government and merged Jefferson and Mexico into the republic of the United States of Mexico (USM).

sorry, file server's down at the moment.

I've read that history there before somewhere. Its VERY interesting and very plausible.

I think this will probably be a good scenario.

I sure hope it's good!:D

Civ list:

United States of Mexico
Confederation of North America
Canada
Free Brazil
Great Britain
German Reich
Italy
Spain
France
Scandinavia
Soviet Union
Ottoman Republic
Israel
Iran
Afghanistan
Middle Africa
South Africa
India
China
Kingdom of Thailand
Indonesia
Japan
Australasia
Kramer Associates

What year does this take place? Judging by Kramer Associates being in, I'd have to say its at least 1890 or later. Though, the Ottomans and Soviet Union didn't exist at the same time except 1917-1918. While Israel didn't exist till 1948.

It's about 1971-1972. I haven't read the book, but I have read a big article on the book in the People's Almanac 2. If you can help me on any of the flaws of the scenario, please do:D

People's Almanac 2, that's where I read it too.

I at least think that the Ottoman Republic should be called Turkey.

The rest looks good.

I think though Germany lost in WWII in that story too, so it shouldn't be the German Reich.

Nope, Germany and the USM won.

The Ottoman Republic was in a revolution (it triggered WW2) but it doesn't tell you what happened to them, so I kept them like this.

Oh that's right, the Ottoman Republic did trigger WWII.

I still don't remember Germany and USM winning. I thought CSNA, Kramer, and USM were allied against Germany.

I wish I could find my People's Almanac 2. :)

I have mine right here, it says...

"When hostilities came to an end in 1948, Britain and France were subordinated to Mexico and Germany"

Actually, the CNA remained nuetral, the sides were something like this:

Germany

USM

vs

Britain

France

Japan

Oh yes, now I remember. :)

Weren't like the USM and CNA supposed to combine or something in 1960?

That was in What if the South won the civil war?

Oh, forgot about that one. I seem to be getting the two mixed up for some reason.

Nope!

please stop abriviating i am very confused

emu. the this is very much like the NES I made,with only a few differences.

immortal_empire, sorry.;)

You need to cut down the loading time some how. I waited for at least an hour and it was still not done.

I don't know how to fix that other than deletng some of my precious units.:eek:

Anybody playing the scenario?

Could you put up some pictures of it?:D

The uploader won't upload the screenshot!:mad:


I'll try again later.

Sounds Cool!

Does this work on PTW? or only Civ3? What Patch?

PTW

Originally posted by Procifica
I've read that history there before somewhere. Its VERY interesting and very plausible.


It's not very plausible. It's about 1 out of a million different possibilities. It might make an interesting story though...

No, not 1 out of a million. Something similar to that COULD have happened had the British won the revolutionary war.

The book he made was almost like a history book, with maps and graphs and the actual story.

Hi ppls,

Haven't been on in awhile...(GEEZ... never knew a game could be as addicting as Everquest).

Anyways~~ I just thought I'd get my two cents worth in... I personally dont find this very plausible. I just can't see that even had the revolution been lost that Spain would have given up Texas (just aint in thier history) and I cant see that the people of the US or soon to be would have ran off and formed a new nation in Texas...

Sounds like an interesting premise for good fiction though...

THanks

American settlers started arriving in Texas in 1821, looking for new land to settle, away from the United States government. In time, many of these settlers wanted to bring Texas into the United States.

The history says NOTHING about when Mexico declares its independence from Spain. Texas was a remote province of New Spain/Mexico at this time, and it did become independent in 1836. I see this as very plausible if the circumstances were right.

I don't think Spain would have had a choice about the settlement of Texas, they were pretty weak at the time of the U.S attempted revolution.

sounds interesting, cant wait to try it out.

I have'nt played it yet. But i'm a big fan of alt history and have some ideas for other scenarios.

Don't touch any Harry Turtledove American Empire books. I've already got one in the works for that.;)

Speaking of Henry Turtledove. Somebody should create a scenario based on his Great War series or the two Civil War ones.

1) Great War/WWI (1914): USA & Germany vs. CSA & England & France

I'd like to see a scenario on that. A northern hemisphere map would do. You could add Spain, Mexican Empire, Dominion of Canada, and what ever European countries need be. I think the USA finally won.

2) American Civil War (1861): USA vs. CSA

The CSA would have machine guns of course, thus making it rather easy to defeat the USA. The USA lost.

3) American Civil War II (1884): USA vs. CSA & England & France

The USA and CSA would have be equal science-wise.. I think. The Apaches also took place in the war. Most of the story was about the war in the western part of USA/CSA. The USA lost.

Originally posted by Procifica
Oh that's right, the Ottoman Republic did trigger WWII.

I still don't remember Germany and USM winning. I thought CSNA, Kramer, and USM were allied against Germany.

I wish I could find my People's Almanac 2. :)

huh Ottoman republic ?? Weimarer Republik !!!!
Otto von Bismarck gave the base for WW1 and the emporer Wilhelm messed up the relationships with the other countries and there ww1 was

which is the main reason of ww2 !!!!!!!

It's about 1971-1972
huh Alma what? lol is that a typo ??

It's alternate history.

well I know but even in fiction some of it has to be based on truth

well ok:scan: all fiction...

where do you find this "story" i would love to read it.

"For Want of a Nail" is the full book. The only place i've found was at Amazon.com for about 13$.

Or, in the People's Almanac 2#, there's a summary (about 1 1/2 pages long) of the book.

okthanks. i will see if they have it in my library. fat chance though

I've seen it at Borders and Barnes & Nobles

what is the people's almanac? What's it about?

Turtledove is the bomb.Someone should do the series with the aliens i forgot what it was called.

Worldwar and Colonization.

Yea Turtledove rules....what I wanna see is a scen based off of the Guns of the South or his other alternate history series about if the Confederacy had won the war (man thats a great series)

Hey Bobby Mobalize said something about wanting to do the civil war one you should drop him a LINE

Guns of the South, How Few Remain, Great War Series and American Empire Series are all related to that, just incase you need the book material to help with a scenario.

Guns of the South and How Few Remain are seperate storylines... however the great war series does follow the How Few Remain book.

Guns of the South is a bit cheesy. I read it in 5th grade... the plot is the Confederates get AK-47's (No spoiler here, as you can see Lee holding one on the cover!)

Blood and Iron/How Few Remain are the prequels to the Great War series. Guns Of The South is pretty cheesy, same with the Colonization and WWII ones.

Somebody made a post about a Great War Mod/Scenario but it got taken off, I was gonna do that but I decided not too. Go ahead if you want to make a Great War scenario.

Originally posted by Azale
I don't know how to fix that other than deleting some of my precious units.:eek:
Well, maybe you could spare a few? The scenario sounds interesting, but I gave up on it since my old computer never finished loading. :undecide: Besides, if you take away those needed the least, it will improve the average. ;)

Ok, i'll try;)

Wasn't Blood and Iron the Post World War situation?



Wasn't there also a series on the USA and CSA stopping thier war with each other to fight England or something?

He's wrote so many books it's hard to say. I'd like to see a scenario based on his newest one called Ruled Brittanica, it's about England under Spanish control which could have happened during the 16th century. Somebody should read an in-depth review or the book and make a scenario or I'll make the scenario. It sounds pretty interesting and I like alternative history. Alright.

Mobalize i've read the the book but don't know anything about making scenarios .The whole book takes place in England so the plot wold probably need to be expanded upon to involve all of Europe.

Exactly. In the book I believe the British revolted and reclaimed the British Isles from the Spanish. But you could always make an alternative history of an alternative history.

Lets say that the British weren't successful and Spain held most or all of the British Isles and the British's territory. You could involve Western Europe, all of Europe, the Eastern Hemisphere, or maybe even the entire world. This would be pretty cool. So if anyone wants to make a scenario about this tell me because I may make one myself. Or we can all make one.

It'd be pretty cool to have it a world map scenario. Spain would hold all of the British Isles except for a part of Ireland. Britain would adopt North America as their new Kingdom and so on. Maybe there could be several seperate English nations in North America. Then you would have the rest of the world to duke it out. Spain would be too powerful though, maybe you could split them up into different factions or say they have had a civil war and formed different nations. The more eccentric the better.

How about the Brits in Canada and ne us could be govt in exile the French could have the louisiana purchase territory everything west of the mississipi could be held by Native Americans the Spanish could have the carribian Florida and part of mexico and the sw US the Portugese could have Brazil as for the rest of the world i'll have to do some research so see who had colonies and where they had them i think the Ottomans were powerfull during this time period Mobalize pm me if want me to help with ideas as i said i don't know how make scenarios but i have plenty of ideas i love alt history too

Plausability..... ahhh who really cares?

My own veiw of an American Revolution that failed (never happened?) is in the works and will be.. better than Peacemakers (My CSA Short Story). Turtledove wrote a story (The TGwo Georges) on a failed American Revolution.

His Great War series isn't any good though.

I actually though it was pretty good.

Well, It wasn't mhe just copied the Franco-Prussian relations to America and he makes it neither convincing nor entertaining.

His Ruled Britannia is damn awesome though, probably the greatest peice of Alternate History I've ever read, which is a statement considering hat I am well readin the genre.

I've been looking for that book. where do they sell it?

Borders, Barnes and Noble..... Amazon.com

it's pretty easy to find.

Read the book, not the summary, and this scenario is WAY wrong

Canada should be part of the CNA
Quebec should be independent
CNA capital is Burgyone(sp?) on the Ohio, not New York.
By 1971, the USM occupied California.
Kramer Associates is more of a company than nation, but the capital should be Taiwan.
Only the NW of South America is part of Mexico.
Germany is a republic, not a reich.
Ottomans were defeated, and Arabia exists
USSR is the Associated Russian Republics.
Siberia should be Mexican.

That's all for now, but u should really read the book before making a scenario on it It is really complicated.

Read the book, not the summary, and this scenario is WAY wrong

Canada should be part of the CNA
Quebec should be independent
CNA capital is Burgyone(sp?) on the Ohio, not New York.
By 1971, the USM occupied California.
Kramer Associates is more of a company than nation, but the capital should be Taiwan.
Only the NW of South America is part of Mexico.
Germany is a republic, not a reich.
Ottomans were defeated, and Arabia exists
USSR is the Associated Russian Republics.
Siberia should be Mexican.

That's all for now, but u should really read the book before making a scenario on it It is really complicated.

Sorry double posted

Burgyone is is were Pittsburgh is in our world

lol, i know this scenario isnt like the book. Thats because i dont have the book. One of these days i might release a better version of this scenario (less units, more like the book)

Who's the author of this book? Sounds like an awesome scenario but if it takes a while to start then it probably won't work for me :-(. Anyways if anyone would make a scenario about any Harry Turtledove (the weirdest last name I've ever seen) story and does it well, that would be AWESOME.

i am planning a co-mod (with emu) of american empire, but for conquests. All the cities are already in.

Hey Azale, I got through a couple of turns of your game (to Nov. 1991) and then it freezes on me while the British are moving around. I've tried it a couple of times and it keeps on freezing at the same point. Have you had problems with this before?? Otherwise this looks like a great scenario and if I can get through this damn turn I'm sure I'll really enjoy this scenario.

hmm, i didnt add any extra units. So it cant be that. It might have somthing to do with your computer (but im not really an expert on that).

Ill see if i have the same problem, i myself havent played very far into it. One other thing, who were you playing as? :D

As the USM. It happens at the exact same point- a British destroyer comes into the view of one of my nuc subs and it just freezes at that point. So I figure I'll go back a turn and move the sub out of the way and see what happens.

ok, tell me what happens and if it freezes, ill check it. One other question, how fast does it run?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by how fast does it run, but it runs normally. I moved my units around a different way and it didn't matter, so I guess I'm going to have to try something different or maybe not at all :-(

well, hmm, try being the CSA. Or maybe someone else and see if it happens.

I think it will take a long long long... time to Load
Post some Saves for PTW or Conquest

Just so you guys know, just reading this thread has prompted me to buy "What If 1 and 2," "For Want of a Nail," and "If The South had Won the Civil War." I've found an entirely new genre with which to stock my bookshelves.

But my question concerns the mod. Is it C3C only, or PTW only? I only have C3 "vanilla," and when I downloaded it an unzipped it, it didn't show up in my scenario list. Needless to say, after reading all these posts about it, I was highly disappointed. If it is just for one of the expansions, could you POSSIBLY make it for us po' folk who just have the "vanilla?"

Speaking of Turtledove, i wonder how WWII with Confederacy would be like :mischief:. It should go something like this:

Axis:
CSA
Germany
Italy

vs.

Aliies:
Britain
France
Russia
USA
China
Japan (would later side with the Axis)

Haven't read the entire topic, but I would like to say that France would probably not be a republic, as the French Revolution was inspired by the Revolutionary War.

You know you could say the Americans were terrorists breaking off the Empire. Of course, they daren't see it that way. They'll call it revolutionary. But what revolutionaries have we got today? Oh yeah, that's right. Terrorists.

Speaking of Turtledove, i wonder how WWII with Confederacy would be like :mischief:. It should go something like this:

Axis:
CSA
Germany
Italy

vs.

Aliies:
Britain
France
Russia
USA
China
Japan (would later side with the Axis)

Well, I'f you're basing this off of Turtledove, then it would be closer to this:

Alliance Powers:
USA
Germany
Italy
China
Autro-Hungary (Since they would have won WWI then they'd still be around)

vs.

Entente Powers:
British Commonwealth
France
Russia
CSA
Japan