(follow-up from another thread)


If ever, when did Hitler lose support from the German people?
Since when had the Germans knowlegde of the holocaust?


Originally posted by Hitro
Most Germans in '41 didn't even think about "liberation". Most also didn't in '45.

Originally posted by ellie
I always assumed a large portion of the people in germany at the time [1941] were against hitler. They must have known about the genocide going on, im surprised if they supported it. Certainly the soldiers rounding up jews were not "good men". Did the german propoganda machine at the time manage to hide what was going on with regards to the jewish people?. The systematic annhilation of around 6 million jews would be pretty hard to hide surely?.

Ellie



My comment:

1941 was a year of military triumph to Hitler. Oppostion was either exiled, silencend by terror, concentrated in camps or already dead. Just to give a number: maybe Hitler had 5% opposers, mayby even 20%. But in fact I guess most of all Germans were going ape-crazy about blitz victories making them believe to be Ubermensch.

Did germans know about the genocide?

Jewish population was about 10%. (IIRC, please correct me)
Jewish people weren't just sent to camps. Their bank accounts were robbed, their real estate claims nullified and their possessions seized, just to ultimately merge with the Volkseigentum. All these actions were painstakingly observed and accounted by german officials. Every piece of furniture, every piece of jewelry, even the number of seized spoons and boots was noted, written in tables and for sure summarized somewhere.

Germans must have been aware of ehnical cleansing, at least they must have noticed people vanishing.

I only see a few reasons, why they did not speak up:
1) fear of own life
2) personal advantage out of the aquisition of jewish wealth
3) psychological delusions (that is being ubermensch)

I recall a documentary about Buchenheim, where the allied forces were so shocked by what they saw in the concentration camp, that they rounded up the population of the nearby town and took them to the camp, to show them the heaps of bodies and the atrocities that happened there.

Even though the camp was only some kilometres out of town, most people were totally shocked by what they saw, because they did not suspect the extent. I guess most people only knew that a lot of people were brought to camps, but not what really happened there. They considered them more prisons than sites of industrialized genocide.

Originally posted by test_specimen
... I guess most people only knew that a lot of people were brought to camps, but not what really happened there. They considered them more prisons than sites of industrialized genocide.

This may be true. ... but leaves a doubt on the common sense of the poeple of the neighboring towns.

Consider trainload after trainload of prisoners going into an area of maybe 400 acres (2 km²) and no one ever coming out? Could anybody ignore this fact? The bureaucrats, the railway officers, the nearby town folk ?

It was the military who escorted them there, I guess the townsfolk had no jobs (or at least most of them) in the camps. And don't forget, that those were closed trains, and it was of no importance if people died in transfer. They had no reason to stop for physical needs, so most were brought directly to those camps.

Local politicians were off course involved, but it would have been bad propaganda to let something slip about the situation in those camps.

I am sure, that a lot of people knew or heard rumors about what was going on in concentration camps, but they must have suspected something far less extreme. Another reason, why they might not have known about it, is that maybe they just did not care.

Even for those people who did not believe in those racial theories the argumentation must have been something like: "whoever gets imprisoned must have done something", a reverse logic.

I saw this kind of late, so also in response to ellie:

Originally posted by smalltalk
If ever, when did Hitler lose support from the German people?
Never really until his death, when it comes to the majority. Although many people were traumatized and frustrated at the end of the war that usually led to apathy more than to opposition.

But still since Stalingrad (Winter 42/43) the number of opponents was steadily growing, it were just not so many that it would be justified to say that he lost support from the people as a whole.

Since when had the Germans knowlegde of the holocaust?

Very hard to tell. That can't be said for Germans as a whole, after all those who planned it were Germans as well. Those who carried it out were also Germans, they all knew it when it started. Amoung the general population it was mixed. Some knew nothing until the end, some knew that something was going on (after all their neighbour "disappeared") and some probably knew it to a very large extend.
But it is until today a very controversial question that will probably never be answered sufficiently.
But in fact I guess most of all Germans were going ape-crazy about blitz victories making them believe to be Ubermensch.

Many didn't really believe the race ideology, but they did believe in military victory.
However, that was different in 1939. A thing that is often forgotten is that the trauma of the Great War was not only present in Britain and France. Most Germans, except for the Hitler Youth kids, didn't really like the idea of a new war, too.
That did change after the rapid successes, though. In 1941 Hitler was at the peak of support and power.
Jewish population was about 10%. (IIRC, please correct me)
If I recall correctly there were about 500,000 Jewish Germans in 1939. I'm not exactly sure about the general population figure, but it was certainly much more than 5,000,000 , so I don't think 10% is correct. The Jews were a very small minority in Germany, which shows the idiocy of the idea to see them as responsible for all evil.
Remember that most murdered Jews didn't come from Germany itself but from the occupied territories, especially Poland.
Germans must have been aware of ehnical cleansing, at least they must have noticed people vanishing.

They noticed that there "disappeared", as they noticed that many others "disappeared". In case of the Jews the lie of them being "relocated to the east" was introduced to stop people from thinking too much about it.
And given that German Jews were very assimilated ethnic cleansing wasn't really the case, as they didn't live in closed communities.
Consider trainload after trainload of prisoners going into an area of maybe 400 acres (2 km²) and no one ever coming out? Could anybody ignore this fact? The bureaucrats, the railway officers, the nearby town folk ?
The bureaucrats and (some) railway officers certainly knew it.
Considering the town folk you have to remember that the death camps (Auschwitz etc.) were not located in Germany itself, but in occupied Poland. So many people really thought the Jews would be "relocated" to the east, as they were indeed brought to the east. Tragically many Jews believed that too, especially at the beginning, which probably prevented alot of possible (though probably futile) uprisings.
Originally posted by test_specimen
It was the military who escorted them there
The deportations weren't done by the military, but rather by the SS. That doesn't mean that there was never a army unit involved, but that were exceptions, usually the SS did it. They also "ran" the camps, including being the guards.
Even for those people who did not believe in those racial theories the argumentation must have been something like: "whoever gets imprisoned must have done something", a reverse logic.
Very true.
A very common way of thinking, not just in Germany and not just in the 40s, unfortunately.

But don't mistake what I say above. Although certainly many Germans didn't know about the Genocide, at least in its full industrial extend, that doesn't mean they all bear no guilt. I mean, even if the Jews and other would "just" have been deported to the east, shouldn't that already have been enough to stand up against?

Originally posted by smalltalk
(follow-up from another thread)


[b]My comment:

1941 was a year of military triumph to Hitler. Oppostion was either exiled, silencend by terror, concentrated in camps or already dead. Just to give a number: maybe Hitler had 5% opposers, mayby even 20%. But in fact I guess most of all Germans were going ape-crazy about blitz victories making them believe to be Ubermensch.

Did germans know about the genocide?

Jewish population was about 10%. (IIRC, please correct me)
Jewish people weren't just sent to camps. Their bank accounts were robbed, their real estate claims nullified and their possessions seized, just to ultimately merge with the Volkseigentum. All these actions were painstakingly observed and accounted by german officials. Every piece of furniture, every piece of jewelry, even the number of seized spoons and boots was noted, written in tables and for sure summarized somewhere.

Germans must have been aware of ehnical cleansing, at least they must have noticed people vanishing.

I only see a few reasons, why they did not speak up:
1) fear of own life
2) personal advantage out of the aquisition of jewish wealth
3) psychological delusions (that is being ubermensch)

Most Germans were not aware of the genocide. It was publicized that Jews were being taken away. Those Germans who knew about it either tried to help or shut up with fear of life. Very few "Germans profited from the Holocaust. Nazis were the ones who profited. They are two different races.

The German officials you speak of were NAZIS. The Nazi's almost disliked the German people as their enemies. During the end of the war many Waffen-SS troops attacked German civilians and Wehmbracht troops. During the height of Germany's war(1941) the Wehmbracht despised the SS and they never liked each other.

Why should the German people complain if their nation is getting revenge for the HATED Treaty of Versailles.

Originally posted by test_specimen
It was the military who escorted them there, I guess the townsfolk had no jobs (or at least most of them) in the camps. And don't forget, that those were closed trains, and it was of no importance if people died in transfer. They had no reason to stop for physical needs, so most were brought directly to those camps.

Local politicians were off course involved, but it would have been bad propaganda to let something slip about the situation in those camps.

I am sure, that a lot of people knew or heard rumors about what was going on in concentration camps, but they must have suspected something far less extreme. Another reason, why they might not have known about it, is that maybe they just did not care.

Even for those people who did not believe in those racial theories the argumentation must have been something like: "whoever gets imprisoned must have done something", a reverse logic.

Troops were handpicked for this honorary job of escorting Jews to camps. Yes, rumors were around but were not widely believed or publicized.

Without having read all the posts in the thread, I just feel to add something.
"Knowledge" in a dictatorship is something rare. From what I know from one of my grandfathers (apolitical he never joined in the Nazi-enthusiasm, and never became party member because of consciousmess problems but neither he was an "oppositional"; just tgrying to survive and not making his hands dirty) most Germans (the normal populace that didn't live close to a KZ or was somehow involved in the Holcaust) had heard rumors about the annihilation of Jews but on the other hand were told that they "had been shipped to the East". Many might have thought that the reports about the planned mass slaughter in the KZ were not only exaggerated in the rumors but lies from the enemy or Jews themselves. "After all, the KZ are labor camps, right?"
Many didn't believe such a savagery possible. During the Reichskristallnacht in 1939, when Jewish shops and synagogues were plundered by the mob on the streets, the Nazis underestimated the shock this event caused among many citizens who viewed this as barbarianism. Thus: Let the administration take care of the problem and hide the happenings from being a public spectacle.

Cheap lies you may call it, but seemingly it psychologically works. A grand-aunt of mine - you'd probably view her as a kind person if you meet her and she really is nice to everyone - still denies the holocaust. She just still can't believe that her admired Hitler was capable of such a barbarian act - for surely she wouldn't think killing Jews is right.
It MUST NOT be true, so it isn't. It's really as simple as that and works the same way religious thoughts are immunised against rationality. Dinosaur bones found, all the geological evidence etc., but still a good number of people believes that the world has been created 6000 years ago...

they did know
at least some of them
they just didnt want to realize what was happenening

Originally posted by West German
Very few "Germans profited from the Holocaust. Nazis were the ones who profited. They are two different races.
According to which race ideology? ;)
The German officials you speak of were NAZIS. The Nazi's almost disliked the German people as their enemies.
:crazyeye:
Yeah, that's why they believed in the German people's racial superiority. Probably an inferiority complex. :crazyeye:
During the end of the war many Waffen-SS troops attacked German civilians and Wehmbracht troops. During the height of Germany's war(1941) the Wehmbracht despised the SS and they never liked each other.
What's the Wehmbracht?

@WestGerman: I agree with Hitro: distinction between nazis and Germans/Austrians cannot be made. Not everyone might have agreed with racial theories, not everyone might have agreed with war plans, but still most people supported Hitler.

And to see how deeply ideology was planted in people's minds, just talk to someone older than 70. Not that there aren't exceptions, but you will still hear a lot of anti-semitism and perhaps some regret that the war was not won by the Germans.

Maybe they did not think, that the Jew living in the same street was "not of the same kind" but they just didn't associate him with what they thought generally of Jews. Maybe they did not consider using violence against the person they knew, but against this generalization of Jews it seemed legitimate.

I think it is mostly due to the use of new media (radio, movies, and newspapers in combination with widespread literacy), that this was believed by so many people.

I can only quote my Grndma who lived in Austria then.


Before Austria was connected to the Third Reich in Austria ruled Dollfuss. Dollfuss was a Dictator who was agianst Nazis but Pro-Mussolini. First Mussolini helped Asutira not to fall to Germany, but after Mussolini needed the help of Germany they "gave Austria to Germany"

Dollfuss was shot and the Nazis toock over power more or less without resistance.

May Grandmother told me this: Under Dollfuss they felt the Dictatorship. People dissapearedm they were forced to cheer when Dollfuss made a speech, the very forced and afraid.

The Nazis were seen indeed as "better". This for severl reasons:

In the Nazi state the "normal" people was not in danger, but get much. They got much jobs, they got a national proidness they had lost in ww1, they had a future.

You don't have to forget that Hitler buiiöld many things up he needed later for war! This made a lot of jobs possible.

Of course the normal peple wern't foresighted enough to see where this may led.

Then there was the propaganda: How unfair the Versailles treaty system was, how bad they are threaten, and of course the Nazis were a fan of the therory that Germany wasn't beaten on the battlefield in ww1, but by betrayal of the German politicians.

This all made the people to feel treate4n unfair in ww1 na dstrenghten their national idendity and proudness.

They realizd that somehow pwople dissapeared and weren't not seen again, and they realized that sometime police razzias were made.

That they didn't expoect much worse is simple:

In this time anti-semetism was normal. It was even somehow "normal" before the war, and under nazi propaganda they realy thougth they were "bad". And we all know how easy propaganda works!
So they didn'T thougth much wenn shops were closed and a big "Jude" (Jew) was printed on the windows.

About the toher police razzias: This was common before the Nazis, this was common in the time between the wars, this was common before ww1... TFor the people it was normal that they don't have the right to say what they want! They wern'T allowed to do so under the Kaiser, as wel las under the "Democracies" who were build after ww1.


Then the Annexteions of The Eastern States: All thought "We bring back the countires that are German anyway"

Then the assauilt of France and Norway: "France treated us badly after ww1 - that's aur right!" and "The Norwegians are aric too! They should be happy!" and so on...


When my grandmother was really dissapointed of Hitler was
1) She was nurse, and once Hitler came to visit the Hospital and shaked all Hands. And She told me that she thought: "What? THis is Hitler? In V and Radio he seems to be so strong and powerfull, and in real live looks so unimportant und unspectacular"

2) Her husband then (not my grandfather becuase he died) was a musician, and he was at the Army Musicians. They were send to Stalingrad and never came back.
And wehn she recieved the letter "Gefallen für Führer, Reich und Vaterland" (Died for the Führer, Reich and "lands of the fathers") she was of course totaly shocked.

And what she told me to was: They absolutely had no idea of the Conzentarion Camps, and whats goin on there. It was a top secret thing!

People whi lived near the Cmaps got told that the worst criminals are in them, and no matter if they belived or not: Nobody whould have asked or would have risked a closer look. At leastnobody who was inte.lligent enough to know when it's better to know nothing.

BTW:

The feeling that "my nation is better" is very deep into some nation today too.

look at the US: Many US citizens are absolutely convinzed that they live in the best and most wonderfull nation possible, that they are the "choosen people" by god.

A very alike thing was in Gmeran's minds during the nazi-period.

And this don't implicated that it's bad to be proud of the nation! I never emant it this way! i jsut say how easy it is to make a bit propaganda, to make heroics oin the past and so on...

Originally posted by Hitro
If I recall correctly there were about 500,000 Jewish Germans in 1939. I'm not exactly sure about the general population figure, but it was certainly much more than 5,000,000 , so I don't think 10% is correct. ...
Remember that most murdered Jews didn't come from Germany itself but from the occupied territories, especially Poland.

Hitro, you are right, my 10% figure is wrong. So there is a possibilty deportations might not have been noticed by a larger part of the Germans.

According to the census of June 16, 1933, the Jewish population of Germany, including the Saar region (which at that time was still under the administration of the League of Nations), was approximately 505,000 people out of a total population of 67 million, or somewhat less than 0.75 percent.
...
In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million. The majority of Jews in prewar Europe resided in eastern Europe.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10005276

cool map!

Where did you find this?


What I'm wondering is what haoppened / had happened to the Jews in the Soviet Union? They were "unwanted" there too.

Those who didn't get killed by the Nazis in Ukraine for being Jews or by Stalin for being Capitalist pigs are now in Israel - and there's lots of them.

Hi Nahuixtelotzin!

(Scho lang nix mehr gesehen von Dir!)

BTW: Stalin killed them too for being Jews.

Yes, but the legitimation argument went not the racial way but they were instead accused of reactionary activity and thelike.

Uff, Baby und Diplomarbeit halten schön auf Trab...

Anyway.. I'm sure we'l lagree if we say how supid it is ti kill peopel becuase of religion,

And second: If the people are such a productive people like the Jews (financial, cultural and scientific most productive) I would encourage them and implement them into my plans!

Gratuliere! Läufts gut?

wow.......
excellent
do you have an updated version today???

Originally posted by pi8ch
cool map!

Where did you find this?


What I'm wondering is what haoppened / had happened to the Jews in the Soviet Union? They were "unwanted" there too.

@pi8ch, Nobunagatenno:

The map comes from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/

About german officials and academics supporting the Nazi regime:
These increasing degrees of commitment to the Third Reich functioned as an interlocking system in which each level supported the next. ...

Most widespread was the support for the war effort, stabilizing Nazi rule at home and making possible military conquest abroad. Such an outlook at least tolerated anti-Semitic discrimination by failing to protest in public against it.

Less prevalent but still quite popular among professionals was a radical nationalist justification for ethnic resettlement and racial cleansing as a biopolitical base for ensuring German hegemony in Europe. This volkish mind-set singled out Jews and Slavs as racial inferiors to be expelled from the professions and displaced from Germany into some undefined Eastern ghettos.

Least widespread, but most fatal was the direct participation of accomplished military, legal, technical, and medical professionals in the Final Solution. Whether acting from opportunist motives or ideological conviction, these experts narrowed their ethical outlook to service to their own Volk, oblivious or uncaring of the untold human suffering that their actions created in those excluded from its community.
http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/index.utp?content=publications/occasional/conundrum.htm


@Nobunagatenno:
Sorry, no updated version.
The estimated strength of world Jewry today is little more than 13 million.

United States 5,800,000
Israel 4,847,000
France 600,000
Russia 550,000
Ukraine 400,000
Canada 360,000
United Kingdom 300,000
Argentina 250,000
Brazil 130,000
South Africa 106,000
Australia 100,000

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

Originally posted by test_specimen
@WestGerman: I agree with Hitro: distinction between nazis and Germans/Austrians cannot be made. Not everyone might have agreed with racial theories, not everyone might have agreed with war plans, but still most people supported Hitler.

And to see how deeply ideology was planted in people's minds, just talk to someone older than 70. Not that there aren't exceptions, but you will still hear a lot of anti-semitism and perhaps some regret that the war was not won by the Germans.

Maybe they did not think, that the Jew living in the same street was "not of the same kind" but they just didn't associate him with what they thought generally of Jews. Maybe they did not consider using violence against the person they knew, but against this generalization of Jews it seemed legitimate.

I think it is mostly due to the use of new media (radio, movies, and newspapers in combination with widespread literacy), that this was believed by so many people.

Hitro: The Wembracht was the German army.

Many people supported Hitler until the outbreak of the war. But then in 1941, when we started winning, they had more faith in him. Eventually when the Russians won Stralingrad many became angry with him.

And many Germans did try to help Jews but their effforts were never publicized because they were said to be the cause of the war.

Now you may not, but I see Nazis as a different race in which many Germans joined. Many Germans only fought because they wanted to fight the hated Russians or for the honor of The Fatherland.

@West German:

many is indeed a word with a very fuzzy meaning.

Please allow me to use your post, filling in the percentage:
originally posted by West German, manipulated by Smalltalk
30% people supported Hitler until the outbreak of the war. But then in 1941, when we started winning, they had more faith in him. [95%] Eventually when the Russians won Stralingrad 20% became angry with him.
And 2% Germans did try to help Jews but their effforts were never publicized because they were said to be the cause of the war.

Did I get it right?

Now you may not, but I see Nazis as a different race in which many Germans joined.
I guess, this is biologically almost impossible.

Originally posted by West German


Hitro: The Wembracht was the German army.


Your name is "West German" and your location is Berlin, but it seems that this is misleading. If you were German you would know that the army was called "Wehrmacht" and would not repeat your mistake if this was a typo.

"Wembracht" on the other hand is not even a real word.

Also it seems that you do not know what "race" means. It might help you to look this up.

"Strength of World Jewry" = Population spread?
I think strength is a mis-chosen word...

test_specimen

Yaup.. I would be interested too where "West Germany" comes from.

BTW: The Wehrmacht wasn't the Army.. is was the Striking Forces in General. They were seperated in:
- Heer (Army)
- Luftwafffe (Airforce)
- Kriegsmarine (Navy)

CU!

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
"Strength of World Jewry" = Population spread?
I think strength is a mis-chosen word...
I guess you are correct and I have to admitt I copied and pasted it from the link.

The whole passage goes like this:
The estimated strength of world Jewry today is little more than 13 million. We say “estimated” not just because of the traditional Jewish reluctance to count its people, but also because of the impossible task of reaching out to so many unaffiliated Jews in the Diaspora.

Read Robert Harris's Fatherland

It is basically a book about the Holocaust, it's pretty well written, it holds that the Germans did not know about it, but then again it holds that the discovery of it would be an Earth moving event :shrugs: I don't know.

But I was wondering about this the other day in relation with another subject to claim that Herr Hitler ever had truely popular support is a case study in Nationalism and National Identity, and even Individuality within masses. I strongly beleive that he had popular support at least at first. Which makes you see that the Germans of the 1930's were unprepared to live in their parents' disgraceful shadow. The Wiemar republic was almost universally hated, and so Hitler had his support, He was public with his beleifs, with Mein Kampf and all, He also generally did what he was elected to do, so I am pretty sure that he had the support and entusiasm of the German populous.

Originally posted by West German
Hitro: The Wembracht was the German army.
Well, test_specimen commented on that already, of course my question was desgined to ask if you just made a typo (quite unlikely in this case) or if you don't even know the correct name.
Given that Wehrmacht is an actual word (that can be roughly translated with Defense Force) and that "Wembracht" means nothing at all this can't just be a misunderstanding.
I don't know who you are, but you are certainly not a 60 year-old West German, as you frequently claim. I also don't know what your connection to Königsberg (that you called Konigsburg) is, or to the bombing of Dresden, but I seriously doubt that it is the one you claim it to be.
But the funniest thing was when you called Paulus your idol or something like that for his great defiance against Hitler in Stalingrad. No West German with just a slight knowledge about related history (which a 60 year old should have) would make such a claim. Check up on Paulus' story, you'll find out why.

Ah, and the idea of a sixty-year-old coming to a gaming site calling for "WW2 revenge on Russia" is hilarious. ;)
But then in 1941, when we started winning, they had more faith in him.
Who started winning in 1941? Germany? Not really.
Now you may not, but I see Nazis as a different race in which many Germans joined.
The Nazis a race? Do you consider Communists a race, too? Or Baptists? Or the Simpsons? :crazyeye:

Hitro is right, if you claim to be another person... at last act in character.

Originally posted by Hitro

The Nazis a race? Do you consider Communists a race, too? Or Baptists? Or the Simpsons? :crazyeye:
:rotfl:

Though the Simpsons might qualify as another race. (only three fingers!)

Weren't that four? ;)

Now that you mention it. Yes.

But still not enough.

Do I sense a slight racism towards people with less than five fingers? :hmm:

The nazis a race... ?

:lol:

The develpoed in 20 years and died in a couple of month...

That' I call lightspeed evolutoin.. :lol:

Originally posted by West German
During the end of the war many Waffen-SS troops attacked German civilians and Wehmbracht troops.

Poor spelling aside, I highly doubt that. I know of no such accounts.

Actually, that's the only thing he is right about.

The die-hard SS did indeed kill German civilians and 'regular' soldiers, in addition to POWs and camp inmates, in the final months of the war.

The SS were nearly the only ones resisting the western allies at the end, with hit and run tactics, while the army troops were surrendering en masse.

On the original topic:

Some Germans knew of the slaughter going on in their midst, some didnt.

The important thing is we dont let it happen again. Never forget.

At least in Germany and Austria it won't come to simialr things in the next hundret years... We are far too sensitive on this topic....

I think countries who didn't have such systems yet and therefore don't hvae this "very carefully" behaviour when dealing with this are far more endagnered to change to such a system...

I don't think this can happen from day to another, but over a few years and slightly changes it may be possible...

I know that I'm going to faar here, but the US would at least be a state where it could be possible, even if not very likely.

Originally posted by joespaniel
Actually, that's the only thing he is right about.

The die-hard SS did indeed kill German civilians and 'regular' soldiers, in addition to POWs and camp inmates, in the final months of the war.

The SS were nearly the only ones resisting the western allies at the end, with hit and run tactics, while the army troops were surrendering en masse.

the Waffen-SS? Sorry, but I don't believe it. Regular SS I can see, but they were for the most part two different animals.

Waffen SS was a part of the SS that got "real wepaons" like tanks, guns atc.. So to say they were equooed like an Army, only the WERE NO Army. They were the SS.

The SS was no Army, it was an armed orgnaisation of the NDSAP - of the Nazi Party.

So if you say "Waffen SS" you mean a specific part of the SS.

And: In the end of the war the SS was only a convolut of all different typed of people. French, Dutch, som Germans, even Polnish members... Mayn of them joined the French Legion Etranger after the war wehre they could start a new life... They were afraif of beeing hanged in their homleand...

No, the waffen-SS was as much a front-line combat organization as the Heer, or Luftwaffe or Kreigsmarine was.

Description from good ole Feldgrau.com:
"Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works. The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS. The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization. "

Hi Danny!

First: Don't belive everything on Feldgrau.com. They are nor the best source for information. I think they got the name of the color of the German Wehrmacht uniforms "Feldgrau", but it sounds quite strange anyway ;)

Si IMHO I would suggest that we should prefer other sources than this page, like libaries or documentations of the niveau BBC at least...

So let me answer to your post:

waffen-SS was as much a front-line combat organization as the Heer, or Luftwaffe or Kreigsmarine was. As I said: It was a group armed like an Army, but it was no part of the Striking Forces! It was a sub-organization of the Nazi-party that wore arms. The Waffen SS got weapons like a real Army, and they fought in battles side-to sied with the real Army but it was NO Army of the German State, it was the Striking Force of the Nazi Party!

Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works.
Of course it wasnt Gestapo! Gestapo was the Secret Police of the nazi Regime and had nothing to do with Striking Forces at all! Gestapo mean "GEheime STAats POlizei" == "Secret State Police"

And the Gestapo also has nothing to do with the SS!

Gestapo was police
SS was armed organisation of the naziparty
Wehrmacht was the official Striking Force of the German nation, sperated in Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine

The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. It was a militaristic organisation in the way that they wore arms. But I repeat: They don't have the status of a soldier of a regular Army, even if the nazis tried to use them so.

You can see this simply by the fact that the Wehrmacht was commanded by a general's staff, and the Generals staf was commanded by Hitler. The SS was commanded by Hitler and the Reichmarschall directly. There was no Generall staff for the SS, and there was no Army tradition in the SS! Some officers of the Wehrmacht chaged to the SS, but in general it was a not-as-good trained combatand organisation than the Wehrmacht was.

The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over.
First: "SS-Verfungstruppe" is no German word. It is named "SS-Verfügungstruppe". Another reason why I wouldn't give a cent for Feldgrau.com information. (Sorry here, but i hate it when things are published as historical material without even knowing how to write! If I promote this this way I have to type more carefully thatn I would type in the forum. They should at least research what they are typing!)

Then: They were not elite, they were "elite". They fought fanatical to the dead, had the highes drop-out rate of all German fighters, and where not trained but full of Nazi-ideology and fanatic.
The were called "elite" simply becuase they fought so hard forward that they achied much. Nobody asked afterward if it was a militaric success if the enemy was destroyed but nearly the whole own forces too.
In the Wehrmacht they considered the Waffen SS out of 2 virepoints: First They called them "dilletants" simpyl becuase they were no real trained soldiers, but nazi-fanatics. Second: They were hapyp to have a Waffen SS in their flank, simply becuae they knew that the SS won't reatread and will fight to the last man. It was more secure for the Wehrmacht.

But I wouldn't call that elite, and it isn't called elite btw.

Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The reason for that I explained above.

The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. Here Feldgau is right. It is thought as the 4th branch which it isn't. And in field battles they were send under Wehrmacht command, simply becuase the Waffen SS didn't had a General staff that could deal with the battle tactics. Nevertheless the SS commando aka Hitler could interver and change orders at anytime. And we all know how stupid much of Hitler's oders had been.

To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization. "And again is Feldgrau right here. Once again: The Waffen SS fought at the front, but it was no part of the German military. It was a sub organisation of the Nazis, and therefore not connected to the nation's structure like the Armed forces of a antion are.

Any questions?