World = my preferred typical:
Continents - 40%, wet, warm and 5 billion years.
Difficulty = Deity
Barbarians = Roaming - I hate barbs
# Civs = 7
NOT culturally linked, NO restarting players.
Civ = Spain

Why Spain? They are one of the 2 civs left I haven't played. GOTM#18 will be the Celts, and they are the other civ I haven't played.

This is intentionaly 1.14.
I don't want to lock out non USA players.

Mandatory requirements
Play The World Expansion
Deity experience is MANDATORY


Signed up:
LKendter
Open
Open
Open
Rowain deWolf

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


The following tactics are PROHIBITED:
RoP Rape - if you have to ask...
RoP Abuse (irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, etc.)
Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave
False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end)
Declaring War to break trade deals including actions like the Demand exploit to force a war, or demanding to leave territory.
False Alliances (ally with several people vs. a civ then peace with that civ), and other actions that completely abuse the AI limited diplomacy ability.
Spy exploit - If you fail to plant a spy, you CAN'T try again. The exploit is: you can infinitely plant a spy until the Civ declares war.
Demand exploit - You may make ONE demand a turn per civ. The exploit is: you can demand to the end of time, and guaranteed to get a civ furious and almost to war.

I'd love to join as I've been an avid follower of the LK series, but I've won just the one Deity victory so far (my emperor games thus far have been a breeze). Would you consider me in case you need more players ?

@Jack merchant -
You have WON vs. deity, so that means you know how insane this can get.


Signed up:
LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Open
Open

I want delete function back.

Good luck!

All I can say about spain is there UU is about as useful as the ManOWar. On deity it will not be a help. Being commercial and religious should.

Hotrod

Lee : count me in !

Being in Europe I am not able to play anything on 1.21f : I had to drop out of RBP6 because of this...

May I join ?

Signed up:
LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Open

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

We have just one to go to start this.

Maybe the below teaser will get #5.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-285.jpg

Gotta love those foody starts...

Originally posted by Skyfish
Gotta love those foody starts...


Well let's hope one more person loves "foody starts". I can post in ~8 hours the first 30 if we get one more player. Once that deer gets irrigated look out. The best part is we have so much food that we can keep the other square as game and forest for the double shields.

Lee, I am interested. I am on 1.21, however. Do you, or anyone else know what is required to switch back and forth? Is it just double clicking on the 1.21 patch in the ptw folder to uninstall it?

@Ridgelake -
I have seen comments to click on the 1.21 patch, and it will offer an uninstall option. At that point you can install 1.14.

It was also discusses somewhere until LK42 thread.

If you can confirm it works, then this game starts tonight :)

@ Ridgelake: Lee is correct by clicking on the 1.21 patch and it is unistalled. You then have to uninstall 1.14 as well then reapply 1.14. To get back to 1.21 click and install over 1.14.

The key is uninstalling both patches before reapplying the 1.14 patch. I started by unistalling PTW completely but meldor pointed me in the right direction. You will know if you did this correctly by checking the version at startup.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Hotrod :)



Rowain

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf
Thanks Hotrod :)



Rowain

I second that :)

Hotrod, thank you. Even a relative non-techie like me can follow those directions. :goodjob:

Ridge

I didn't see this thread 'til now... if you want to cram in one more player, I'd be interested. :)

BTW, those patch directions are 99% spot-on, but one detail: you don't actually have to uninstall 1.21 before reinstalling 1.14. You do, however, have to uninstall 1.21 before you can REinstall 1.21 again. So you may as well remove 1.21 before removing and reinstalling 1.14. If that didn't make sense to anyone, just ignore it. :)

@T-hawk - Sorry this one is filled. To many players hurt SG IMHO.

==========================
4000 BC - We get a pretty shield powerful start - **2** games next to us. Of course, one will be irrigated soon enough. It is better when we start the city - all I will say is MOO.

3550 BC - First contact as an English scout appears to the northwest. No trades are possible with them.

3350 BC - An Ottoman warrior appears from the north. He must have NOT meet England, as he still needs alphabet. Alphabet, Burial and $8 go to him. We get Masonry and Warrior Code. Masonry goes to England for Pottery (saves 11 turns), Bronze Working and $10. For a rare moment we are at tech parity. I start a 40-turn gambit on Mathematics. If there is an early tech that favors a good chance for a payoff, math is it.

3150 BC - The Ottoman must have popped a barb camp, so I sell them pottery for $43.

This is who the players are this game.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-284.jpg


Summary - We have a strong start. Both civs have come from the north, so expand that way first.

I have seen plenty of barbs floating around, so keep scouting warriors in front of the settlers.

We have an awesome source for settlers, just a real pain to mm. Blasted governor is to quick to pick forest during growth.


Signed up:
LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Open

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-2550BC.zip



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-285.jpg

Red dot - priority #1
This has gems, river, first ring, and decent amount of grassland.

Yellow dot - priority #2
This has wines in the first culture ring, so the AI can't aggressively settler and take them away.

White dot -
This is not yet scouted, but be another river city claiming more jungle.

Our first to cities will secure 2 luxuries, irrigated wines will get yellow dot to grow quickly, and we have plenty of potential for coal, iron and rubber.

I'd been hoping to be able to pick this up tonight, and I will. Got it, and will play right away.

Preturn: Change Madrid to work plains instead of wheat to get 1 gold extra and growth in the same turn

2510 BC (1) Barcelona founded, starts worker. Luxes up to 30% as Madrid grows, science down to 10. The English have founded a town directly SE of Madrid, they must have discovered a hut.

2470 BC (2) We meet the Germans, who lack Alphabet but have IW. Alphabet goes their way for 70 gold.

2430 BC (3) Luxes go up to 40% as Madrid grows again. The governor selects a forest to work, I switch it to a lake for one turn.

2390 BC (4) Madrid settler -> settler. Luxes down to 10%.

2350 BC (5) We meet the Russians. All known civs have the wheel, iron working and mysticism on us. Luxes up to 30% again. I buy Iron working from the Ottomans for 140 gold. There is an iron outside of the borders of our proposed 3rd city. The English city to the SE of Istanbul also has an iron.

2310 BC (6) :sleep:

2270 BC (7) Luxes to 40% again, settler due next turn.

2230 BC (8)Madrid settler - warrior. I want an extra scout to explore our surroundings and possibly meet more civs. Luxes down to 10%

2190 BC (9) Two Ottoman workers appear next to our Northern warrior in the jungle. I am ever so tempted to capture them, but since I don't know precisely where the Ottomans are and where their units are floating around, I decide not to. I'd like some feedback on this if possible. Lux up to 20% with some MM.

2150 BC (10) Madrid warrior -> settler. Madrid MM'd to get the settler faster, luxes to 30%.

Our new warrior can scout ahead to the east in case you want the settler there. One settler is next to the proposed third city location. An alternative is to found where it stands and whip a temple as soon as it grows to size 2 to get both the wines and the iron in cultural range. This does risk the AI's grabbing it though. Another settler is moving north in the direction of Lee's proposed 4th city site, but as that turned out to be on a mountain, it can't found in exactly that spot. There is a warrior in the area which can soon cover it.
The AI's are up The Wheel and Mysticism on us, Mathematics is due in 13. Our worker irrigated and roaded the cleared game square, then started building a road on the game forest as we are continually working it. The road will be done next turn.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-2150BC.zip)

Hotrod, your instructions were perfect. I played a few turns on Jack's save in 1.14. :)

Signed up:
LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (currently playing)
Skyfish (on deck)
Rigdelake

===================


Two Ottoman workers appear next to our Northern warrior in the jungle. I am ever so tempted to capture them, but since I don't know precisely where the Ottomans are and where their units are floating around, I decide not to. I'd like some feedback on this if possible.


With the military we have this could have been pure suicide. I am glad that you passed.

===================

I don't see an easy solution for the iron. I think that city that claims the iron will be a low producing city.


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Got it


Rowain

Sounds good to do this one first.

However, don't forget you are also up in
LK42 - Emperror plus, 5cc conquest, Arabia

Here we go:

2150BC (0): no changes;

IT: Worker finished in Barcelona next started;

2110BC: As I plan to build a city in the dessert which will claim the Iron I decide to settle on the original yellow dot.

2070BC Sevilla founded on yellow dot. starts a worker; Our Scout sees a goody Hut but I refrain from opening it. German troops are removing Barbs near sevilla;

1990BC All AI have now Writing and contact with Babylon; As I move our Jungle -settler I met a Russian Worker; The new Settler moves East to settle on the dessertcoast;

1950BC Thanks to the Jungle and the brown color I have first missed the russian border. Just as I want to settle I see it so I have to find anothe place for this Settler;

1910BC
IT: a Barbwarrior kills our Warrior in Sevilla and takes 16 gold with him;

1830BC: Babylon starts Colossus;

1790BC Santiago founded;

1750BC: Salamance founded; Another Settler is in position to settle. Please settle where he stand;


Madrid will finish the Settler next turn (cause Growth comes before Production).
If you MM Madrid that it has always 5 food surplus it will build Settler every 4 turns; alas I think we can only get 3 more settlements (additional to the one were our Settler stands). One Settler to the west and on to the southeast, and one between Madrid and Santiago; Babylon bought Contact with us So we have Contact with everyone. All AI have Myst, Wheel,Writing exept Babs who miss writing; Math is due in 3 turns; I recommend to research Currency afterwards as that is usually one of the last techs the AI choose but we can cancel research completly too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Empire.jpg

and The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1750BC.zip)

Good Luck Skyfish :)


Rowain

If you wonder why I send the Settlers unescorted I watched the AI closely were it goes and kills Barbs ;)

Some of those cities are really not where I would have had them :confused:
Would someone please post a small dotmap for the remaining few settlements (before I start messing it up..) ?
Thx

I strongly encourage us to get the wheat and the cow to the south and west. In particular, I would put a city in the plains square SE of the wheat. Then one east of the cow. Then one 3 tiles SE of the english town. And finally one SE of Madrid somewhere. With some luck, we could force a flip on that English town so close to our capital.

If we want to get ambitious, maybe one about 4 squares NE of Seville.

One thing that concerns me is our lack of map knowledge. We have no real idea of where everyone is. For all we know, the lands may open up due south of our capital. I would hate to lose out to some poachers so close to our capital if we were going hard after some more distant lands.

What do the you think?

Believe me at Salamance is not there where I hoped to have a City but better a City in a not optimal spot then no City at all.

As a Dotmap. I would say put one down where the Settler stands. Put one to the west of Madrid that a) can claim the Cow

b) Uses tiles near the Capital and

c) does Not have too much overlap with our Cities and no overlap with AI-settlements.

Another city perhaps 3 Southeast 2 East of Madrid and a last one between Madrid and Santiago as a filler city to close all gaps.

We would then have 9 Cities which is a nice and good core for Deity.

Perhaps there is then still place left but I doubt it

Good Luck

Rowain

@Ridgelake

no problem with aiming at the Cow but Iwould rather have a City Southeast of Madrid to make a thight territory then aiming for the Wheat and end with a far flung city out there and two or three english Cities next to the Capital

afterall we are playing Deity here and trying to outculture an AI is a hard task.

After all the Warrior in the East stands atop an expanded english border.

Rowain

In looking at where the settler is now, perhaps move the cowtown and wheat town north a touch. Maybe cowtown should go 1 square NE of the cow, and wheatville 1 square NW of the wheat. Then maybe put one down 2 squares SE of the wheat, in addition to the other spots mentioned in my post above. I like Rowain's spot 3 SE and 2 east of Madrid, but only after the others.

Well, if we get the cow, then the wheat spot would not be out on an island. I agree that we may not be able to lock in that English poacher, especially if London is that close. I would still like to try for the cow and wheat first, because the area SE of Madrid will take a lot of work to get functional.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
Well, if we get the cow, then the wheat spot would not be out on an island. I agree that we may not be able to lock in that English poacher, especially if London is that close. I would still like to try for the cow and wheat first, because the area SE of Madrid will take a lot of work to get functional.

I agree to some points but I want the spot SE of Madrid for security reasons and for Corruption reasons.

If we lose the Spot SE of Madrid we will have 2 first ring cities in enemy hand and that is a risk I'm not willing to take.

Going for the Cow with the next settler finished is ok but the next after it must go SE of Madrid .


Rowain

I generally agree with Rowain's suggestions above. Also, even on Deity, temples are still cheaper for us than for the English, so I wouldn't mind trying to flip the visible English city.
I'd have put Salamanca one tile SE of where it is but then, the new settler would have had to go one tile SW. As it is, I agree it should found where it stands.

This is a dotmap in case we want to flip the English city (comments welcome):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Empire1.jpg

In case we do not want to try and flip it, blue and pink should move 1 tile NW, and red dot 1 NE.

There is another issue I didn't see mentioned. Look very carefully at the red circle. That is a LAKE. This means that England has already build a temple by us!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-287.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-288.jpg

The first dot map is for the north.
Once gray dot gets irrigated, it will be an excellent city. Once we get rails with some mined plains it will kick butt for shields.

The green dot will claim a bit more grassland, and more potential rubber / coal.

The white question mark area should be ok in 10 turns but we have a debate to fill it in. This is definitely a LOW priority spot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-289.jpg

The second dot map is for the north.
IMHO white dot is the number one priority.
It has a river, some good grassland, and the wheat on plains tile.

Black dot is first ring with cattle, need I say more?

Red dot would be another decent city. Our only coastal city right now is a garbage city for a long time. I would like one good coastal city.

Math is due in 3 turns; I recommend to research Currency afterwards as that is usually one of the last techs the AI choose


I couldn't agree more. I was already thinking the same thing. 2 successful 40-turn sciences is an awesome start in the ancient ages. After currency, I hope we can start on Republic.

===========================

In 10 turns Madrid expands it borders, and that English city will be under culture pressure. We don't need to make a lot of effort for the pressure.

===========================

I am not sure who said it, but I agree we need to explore west. We have no clue how much more land is in that direction.

===========================

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish (currently playing)
Rigdelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I am generally in agreement with Lee on the upcoming strategy and dot map. Not sure if we will be able to achieve all of it, but it is generally in line with what I was thinking.

Originally posted by jack merchant

I'd have put Salamanca one tile SE of where it is but then, the new settler would have had to go one tile SW. As it is, I agree it should found where it stands.


I have long debated with myself about Salamanca. Sadly the tile SE is not on the river else it would have been a no-brainer. I decided to settle on the hill for defense reasons.

Originally posted by jack merchant
I generally agree with Rowain's suggestions above. Also, even on Deity, temples are still cheaper for us than for the English, so I wouldn't mind trying to flip the visible English city.


Temples are the only thing we will build sooner then the AI. Sadly it is England and not Rome and Lizzy will build Culture if she needs it. Additional we have already expanded english borders down there so I really doubt we can outcultere her.

As a general comment: We have a far better chance to take the english city by force then through culture. the AI knows now very well to protect its city against culture flips; The english homeland is by far to close to render this city unproductive so it will outculture us soon. And even if the city comes under culture pressure the AI will fill it with Units to prevent flips and make it a lot harder to take it by force too.
Consider that we have 4(!) scientific Civs which under 1.14 means Monotheism and Cathedrals will be out to all AI as sonn they get out of Ancient Age

So i agree with Lee's dotmap although I doubt that we can get white and black.Given a choice I would prefer a first ring cow to a second ring wheat but if we get both I won't complain ;)

Rowain

With all this great advice, I plunge in full of confidence.
1750bc :
all looks good of course, check Diplo (look at all those Scientific civs, unreal !) and see that everyone has same techs except Babylon has no writing : dreaming of 2fer with Math....
IBT : Germans start on Oracle.
Germans build the Colossus in Berlin !
Babs build Pyramids in Babylon !

1- 1725bc :
Madrid : Settler -> Settler
Barcelona : Worker -> Warrior (still have 2 cities unguarded)
Murcia founded -> Warrior
Lux down to 20%, making 13gpt instead of 8.
Settler going towards...White spot (let's live dangerously, this game is already looking very good...).
Same tech situation huge finger crossing going on.
IBT : English building Oracle but then London completes Oracle.

2- 1700bc :
Seville : Worker -> worker
Same tech situation, Germany has a worker available, costing most of our treasury + 3gpt, hesitate as that might limit my bargaining power for next round on Math. Still do the deal for 66g + 3gpt :"We need more workers !"

3-1675bc : OK that's the big round guys. Nobody's got Math and all other known civs (we are still missing Greeks and Celts) have the same 3 techs up on us : writing, mystic, the wheel (maybe more behind..).
I can get all of those 3 plus 55g from England just for that one (best deal). I try to get a more even spread and more money, some of these guys got dough and I don't want them to make money selling my Math between them.
Here's what I do :
- Ottoman : The Wheel + Worker + 10g for Math.
- UK : Writing + 17g for Math
- Bab : Horseback riding for Math (he was broke)
- Germans: Mysticism + 60g for Math
- Russia : 116g for Math
End of the day, for this one Tech, we get 203g + 4 techs + a PTW price worker.. :D

4-1650bc : not much, use those workers to build roads for the upcoming settlers to go faster.

5-1625bc : New settler produced in Madrid, shaved off one turn so now down to size 3 but growing in one turn. Still on Settler of course.
Buy worker from England for 115g.

6-1600bc : Barb approaches the new settler going to Black spot. Will need to use a Madrid MP to protect/attack.
Barcelona Warrior -> Barracks (I heard Lee loves those...) vetoable, granny anyone ?
Murcia Warrior -> Worker
We find the Babs up in North.

7- 1575bc : Valencia is built on White spot, Barb runs away from my stack of workers+settler protected by a warrior. Workers are with the bunch in order to quickly build a road back to Madrid. However because of the Barb presence I can not really use them right away.

8- 1550bc : OK there is a bit of trouble as there is a Barb camp right next to Black spot, will have to take a bit of risk here, sorry.
Germany has Poly and Map Making, Russia only MM, England Worker, MM and Poly., Babs & Ottoman none.
Can't get any techs except if i bargian our whole economy and it's not worth it right now so I do a round of Map trading :
England of course has the best map but Russia is limited by a 27g treasure (they will give it all to me for my WM) so I do the following :
- Russia : TM+27g for WM
- Germany : TM+29g for WM
- England : TM+ Worker (again!) for WM + 2gpt + 105g.
We now have a better vision of our world. We definitely need to expand West but England is strong, very strong.
IBT : Barb attacks our stack of workers and settler, we win with no HP lost plus get a promotion (Yeeha !)

9- 1525bc :
Santiago (desert city) Warrior -> Worker.
I stay on the defensive with the Barb camp and hope my Vet warrior can defend against the only barb in that camp, do not want to attack and risk 2 workers and a settler.
IBT : An english warrior fights the Barb camp, goes down to 1hp but kills it ! I should have attack them last turn maybe :( at least now we're clear of danger and we can establish Black spot.
Germans starting GLH.

10- 1500bc :
Madrid : Settler -> settler (we can really get more cities now)
Salamanca : Warrior -> Warrior (vetoable), not inspired by this place.
Moving workers to link Gems, lux have to go to 40% sometimes (also because I had to use MP to protect settlers), they can then move to chop the forest to speed up the Rax (or granny?)
Settler goes towards Grey Spot, will be there in 1 turn.
Zaragosa founded on Black Spot. Set on Spearman just to remind the area is infested with English vermin...vetoable of course.

Left it there : there is one IMPORTANT thing, on the Diplo screen, there is a Worker available from Ottomans (cheaper than the one available from Babs)
since I have gone crazy on the worker buying (now that it is so expensive I do not find it an exploit anymore) and because it would take all our gold,
I want to leave the decision to the next leader. See what you want to do : I would go for it though :)

In Murcia, next turn comes a worker (do you notice a trend here ?), it might be worth it to change it to a warrior just to go grab that Hut on the Ottoman border.
However the hut might be already gone...it's been there my whole 10 turns. The workers by Zaragoza are building a road back to Madrid, I find it more important
than a road on the cows (the gold might go to corruption anyway).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1500_BC.zip


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43_copy.jpg

Great job on the worker buying, Skyfish ! With some luck we may be able to get enough cities for an early FP too (in Seville or Barcelona perhaps?).

edit: looking at the map, near England more likely.

Originally posted by Skyfish
End of the day, for this one Tech, we get 203g + 4 techs + a PTW price worker.

IBT : Barb attacks our stack of workers and settler, we win with no HP lost plus get a promotion



I hope currency will do the same for us again. :)
The second I saw math available so early; I had to go with my gut feeling.


On the barb attack - :saiyan: :mad:
Although we got lucky, this was an unneeded risk!
Move the warrior in front of the stack. If a barb is spotted, DON'T move anyone else. This could have cost us a city.

Outside of that, a great turn.

========================

Good round of map trading - we have a much better clue what is going on. :)

If we can explore the unknown black zone we can net more money from the wm.

========================

Looking at the map - UNREAL!
We get black dot, white and look good for gray dot!

One thing I see is that English city really screws us on resources. I hope England get into some early wars and we may vulture that spot.

Good turn, Skyfish. One thing that I will shoot for is a temple whip in Valencia to hopefully get those horses in our area before England does. I didnt see horses anywhere else on the map.

If its not clear, I see it and should be able to start on it tonight.

Sorry for the risk taking, I rarely play safe except when we're in real trouble if we dont'. With a settler every 4 turns the risk was minimized to the max I believe, I had to go fast in order to settle those good sites before the AI (look at the amount of English units around the Black spot to give you an idea...). I apologize and will be more considerate in future :)

The Gray spot is 100% sure as it is one turn away and there are no AIs in view.

The thing to consider is that if we buy that Worker now we will have no treasury, very low gpt and that will lower our chances of making good Tech deals. Both Osmon and Hamm are behind increasing chances for 2fers but also highering the price to purchase.

As for future wars, I believe the English might go after the Ottomans (or us :( ) they are powerful and confined. Next settler should again go West to establish north of the Cows, maybe even by the Game Forest.

I say no to yet another worker. We have bought plenty recently, and needs to recover some gpt. I do hope to see another great trading round once currecncy arrives. However, at the moment we have barely started with getting a good economy which is critical for tech survival at deity.

=======================

As for the English target, you never know. It could turn out to be Germany :crazyeye:
However, will need to get at least cardboard cutouts in all our cities to reduce the risk. Empty cities are asking for AI trouble.

I had the same thoughts, Lee. As a non-industrious civ, buying workers isnt nearly as beneficial as for an industrious civ. My thought process was to get Cowville to building normal warriors to put SOMETHING in each city. At the same time, let the rax finish in the town that is building it, then go for spears and swords. I am secound guessing my thought on rushing the temple by the wheat to get the horse in range. We could probably gain control of the horse, temporarily, but I am not sure for how long if England decides to but but a temple and a library in there. We can hope to join in a war against England, hopefully just before Knights (and maybe pikes) to be able to hold those horses for good. We will have to see how this all unfolds, though.

I'd prefer to whip the temple in Valencia. As it is, the English already have more culture than we do, and if Coventry's borders expand, it will be pressuring us instead of the other way around.
Also, it will be a while before we can hope to join any kind of war against the English, and our Western borders are prime horse territory tactically.
We can certainly do without an extra worker for now but in the future, we'll be happy to be spared the maintenance costs.

Actually, I will still buy workers with a non-industrious civ. I am just worried about cashflow. If we were cash heavy, I would jump on it. However, the way things read it sounds like another gpt commitment for the worker. That is something we don't need.

=====================

Of course, I never dreamed that we would actually get black, white and gray dots! We won't have the LK38 problem of not being able to build the FP. We don't need many more cities for that option.

How big is our world actually ?
I am not yet LK-wary enough to know what "my preferred" actually is ? Sorry :(
We got 8 cities with a ninth coming soon, that should be enough unless it's a Large map.

Two comments:

fist :goodjob: great job getting all 3 is more than I thought possible :thumbsup:

second:
Originally posted by Skyfish

5-1625bc : New settler produced in Madrid, shaved off one turn so now down to size 3 but growing in one turn.

Not true. If you had left it on 4-6 cycle with MM that the city has always 5 food plus(only necessary when City grows to 5) you would have gotten the Settler in 4 turns too cause growth comes before Production. Believe me I have played it so during my turn.
The advantage is we get more gpt this way.

Rowain

Originally posted by Skyfish
How big is our world actually ?
I am not yet LK-wary enough to know what "my preferred" actually is ? Sorry :(
We got 8 cities with a ninth coming soon, that should be enough unless it's a Large map.


:cringe:
This is a standard map. "My preferred" references warm, wet and 5 million years.

True,
We should maybe go back to a 4-6 cycle, this could indeed be weed on my part.

Edit : I will have to go back to the autosave and check this 'cause it is confusing it says "grow in 1 and settler in 2" but actually as soon as it grows it produces the extra shields and therefore the settler, bing, like magic ! Is that what you are saying ?

Yes that is it exactly :)

The thing is that growth comes before production and the automatic worker-assignment choose always a mine-heavy tile if you have more then 2 surplus-food.

for our Madrid it is following sequence:

starts at size 4 making 6 shields 5 food In box 0f/0s
1 turn still size4: 5f/6s in box 5f/6s
2.turn now size 5 wood chosen: 4f/8s in box 0f/14s
MM asigning wood-worker to irrigated plain:
size 5: 5f/7s in box still 0f/14s
3.turn size5; 5f/7s in box 5f/21s
4.turn now size6 wood chosen 4f/9s(!) => in box 0f/30s

=> Settler finished new size 4 produsing 5f/6s start loop again :)

Rowain

1500BC (0) Look around a bit. Move Barcelona warrior towards Seville to get our outer cities with coverage. Decline the worker trades. Sell around WM for about 8 gold, almost double or gpt right now. I see about buying into the techs, but we cant get anything. We can start our FP.

1475BC (1) Murcia worker to temple.

Move warrior back to Madrid so we can keep lux at 10%, not up to 30. This saves 5gpt. Sell around WM for change.

1450(2) Seville worker to temple. Pamplona founded on Grey Dot. Start on warrior.
Sell WM around for 3 gp. We could buy into the tech for our entire treasury and gpt (138 and 12gpt.) I decline.

We can form embassies. I bet our 122 gold is tempting to the AI, particularly with our unguarded cities. So I form Embassies in:

Ottomans. They are building a settler, pulling 7spt at size 4, have 3 MPs and a catapult. They have a temple.. Horses, but no iron.

London: building a temple. They have oracle. 3 mps. Iron, but no horses.

Moscow: Building a temple. No other improvements. 3 mps. No strat resources hooked up, but an iron right next to the capital.

Berlin: They have colossus and temple. Building Great Lighthouse, due in 28. Sixe 4, with 6spt. 2 MPs, 2 lux, no horses or iron.

IT Russia claimed the area to our NE.

1425BC (3) Gems hooked up. Madrid up to size 5. Sell WM.

IT England claims the wheat west of Valencia.

1400BC (4) Sell WM. Move workers. No trades available.

IT England claims our Red Dot spot east of Valencia. Pamplona will have to be our top coastal city.

1375BC (5) Madrid hits size 6 and builds a settler in same turn. Start on the cycle outlined by Rowain. Set slider to 0 lux for first time in a long time. I’ll send the settler to the west, about 5 squares west of Madrid, to pick up the wheat over there.

Bismarck and Lizzie shows up with CoL, along with Poly and MM. Babs finally have mapmaking, along with CoL. Cathy has MM on us. Osman is equal with us. I want to buy into Poly, to work a 3fer, but it is too expensive. I can get Poly for 11gpt, 40 gold and WM. But we only have 13gpt, 44 gold right now. A touch too much for something that I don’t know that I can peddle for a twofer. I will wait a touch longer.

1350BC (6) no breaks

IT Ottomans settle 3 squares west of Zaragoza. As this is the last reasonable spot to settle in (we are about to get the spot 5 west of Madrid, I switch Madrid over to a spearman, due next turn without waste. Then it will become a worker factory.

1325BC (7) Pamplona warrior to granary.

Trade: 60 gold, 14 gpt and WM to England for Poly. Poly, 2gpt and WM to Babs for MM and 1 gold. Poly, WM and 1 gold to Cathy for CoL. Sell Poly to Ottomans for their treasury (32 gold) and WM. We got 3 techs for 28 gold and 16gpt. Sell around WM for about 20 more gold. So subtract that from the total as well.

1300BC (8) Madrid spear to worker. Valencia revolts at size 2. Warrior arrives this turn to MP. Grrrr.

Vitoria founded west of Madrid. Our last city for awhile. Temple ordered up.

1275BC (9) Temple whipped in Valencia.

Form Embassy in Babylon. They have Pyramids and temple. 4 MPs. Size 5 bulding 11 spt. Horses, no iron. 3 wines.

Hire a tax collector for 1 turn in Madrid and move a lot of citizens to the lake as it is size 6 and would need lux to stay in control. The worker will be up next turn. This gets us 5 extra gold.

1250BC (10) Madrid arranged to stay at size 5 and produce a worker every 2 turns. Temple whipped in Salamanca and Santiago.

A picture of our world as it currently stands:


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1250bcmap.JPG

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1250_BC.SAV)

1250 BC (Pre-turn) - I really don't like how close the Ottomans settled to our cities.

1225 BC - It is pretty pathetic when selling your wm for $1 triples your income.
(I) I really wish you could teach the AI to pick 5 extra food for Madrid.

1200 BC - The Ottomans come up with an acceptable offer for Map Making - Worker, $2 and wm.
I generally dislike the whip, but I really feel the need to get some temples going. We have a lot of cities at flip risk, and I want to improve overall culture. Temple is whipped in Seville.
(I) The wars begin as Babylon declares war on Russia.
Greece completes the great lighthouse. The other continent can't be to far behind.

1125 BC - Babylon must be threatening Moscow. This is the second turn in a row that Russia has workers for sale.

1075 BC (I) - Ouch. England is building the great wall, which means construction has just shown up.

1050 BC - I love PTW. We suddenly have contact with the Celts. I ship them col, poly, wm and $30. I receive Literature, philosophy, and tm. We also have contact with Greece, but no useful trades are available. I get $20 from Germany for an updated wm.
The whip appears again, and a temple arrives in Vitoria.

1000 BC - I ship the Ottoman literature for a new updated map. I was right, and we finally have a tm of the Greek territory.


Summary - Our number one question for debate. Where in the world to build the fp?


LKendter
Jack merchant (currently playing)
Rowain deWolf (on deck)
Skyfish
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1000BC.zip

:goodjob: having 10 cities and still the chance to make a fillercity between Madrid and Santiago is great. :goodjob: to all

As for FP I really want those nice english cities (Coventry , Dover ) so an attack vs England is perhaps our first choice . (they have Ivory and Furs too) . So an FP in Valencia/ Zaragoza would be very fitting


Rowain

got it.

I prefer Valencia for the FP as it will grow much faster than Zaragoza and isn't currently under cultural threat.l

Preturn Everything looks good; no changes.

975 BC (1) Barcelona spear - temple.

950 BC (2) Nothing

925 BC (3) The English demand and get tm+22 gp. Coventry's borders expand. Only Valencia now threatens it. Diplo check reveals currency is around; the Greeks, Celts and Ottomans do not have it yet. If we are lucky, they will go to construction first.
I establish an embassy with the Celts. Entremont is size 2 and building a horse.

IT I witness a Bab bowman fight off a Russian archer, if they weren't in their GA already, they are now.

.... Nothing much interesting here.

850 BC (6) Murcia builds granary, starts barracks.

825 BC (7) Barcelona temple -> spear, Pamplona granary -> temple

800 BC (8) The Babs come calling for an alliance against the Russians; I decline. Everyone but the Greeks has currency now. Since cheapest price is still 13 gpt to buy, I am going to let it finish.

Turns 9-10 :sleep:

Madrid produced workers all through my turn, but I think we may have enough for now and should let it grow. That's why it's set on a temple. If you want more workers, MM it back to +5 food (it can also be MM'd to finish a temple before growing). Barcelona should probably continue to produce troops, in which it can be helped by Murcia.
Militarily, if we want a target, Russia is probably easier to get at. We could produce a few warriors for upgrade to swords as the iron isn't online yet. 5-6 swords should be enough to make some headway against them and claim silks. As an added advantage, we can extort their tech and perhaps get something for cheap by allying with the Babs. The Russian territory will not be productive for a long time but the silks will give us 2 happy faces after markets and the jungle may give us coal and rubber.
I noticed after saving that Seville after growing wasn't working the irrigated wine. Please fix.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-750BC.zip)

I want plenty more workers from Madrid. We have way to many plains to irrigate, jungle to clear, and eventually hills to mine. I think we should stay on workers at least until it is back to my turn. We have very dry terrain and getting our cities to grow quickly to size 12 will be very difficult. This is one way to help the equation.

In the worse case we can take workers every two turns and merge them into our slow growing cities (10 turns to grow). This is a great way to continue to take advantage of the high food zone.

With Rowain up next I suspect no problem on going back to heavy workers. :)

=======================

I agree 100% on more troops from Barcelona. It would be much nicer to have a spearman in every city. We may want to connect the horses and build a few horsemen while we have the chance. We will probably lose that culture battle at some point.

=======================

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (currently playing)
Skyfish (on deck)
Rigdelake

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LKendter
[B]
=======================

I agree 100% on more troops from Barcelona. It would be much nicer to have a spearman in every city. We may want to connect the horses and build a few horsemen while we have the chance. We will probably lose that culture battle at some point.

=======================

Absolutely true. In fact, I already hooked up the horses for that reason - should have put that in the report, sorry.

I kind of like the idea of nipping at Russia right now. Their troops have got to be North to fight the Babs. A quick hit of taking Kiev and Vladivostok would be a nice expansion of our borders and picking up the silks.

The tech benefit would also be good, both from the Babs to join the war and pointy stick from Russia afterwards. Actually, I wonder if either Germany and/or the Ottomans might kick in something to hit Russia as well. Thinking a bit further, a dogpile on Russia may well eliminate them or essentially so. Something to consider for a close neighor.

Got it

Rowain

Not much to report:

I changed Madrid to worker/5food setting and produced 3 more workers before I decided to make a temple to let it grow abit.

710BC we learned Currency and I bought Construction from England at 155g and 9 gpt; Research on Republic started.

England finished Great Wall and later Hanging Gardens; Greek built Great Library;

550Bc Babylon still at war with Russia but wont give a tech for a reaonable prize;

All except Celts have Mono + Feud + Rep + Monarchy;

At the last turn Coventry expanded and snatched our Horses away.


Celts will perhaps give Mono for an Alliance vs Greek;

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-550BC.zip)

Rowain

PS: connected Iron and started SM production; And I think I botched a bit by the worker/barracks timing in Madrid.

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish (currently playing)
Rigdelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Got it.

All good as usual, gotta love all these workers plowing away...
Quick scan :
We have 20 (natives) of them plus at least half a dozen slaves, excellent ratio cities to workers.
We have 12 warriors, 3 spears, 2 swords , 1 horseman :(
Not too good (this is not a critic at all because our infra push has been impressive), I would like to have at least one vet spear (or vet sword as they have same def. value) in every city
it does not look like we can go and :hammer: the Russians yet. We can not build horseman anymore.
Change Barcelona from Sword to Spear.
There is still a huge part of the world unexplored and I change Pamplona from Harbor to Galley for exploration, will switch back to harbour right after.
1-530 : Murcia Sword -> Spear, Pamplona whips a Galley.
Take a gamble : Russians will give us Republic for ONLY 86g if we ally with them vs Babs ! Too good a deal to miss (example : to get Republic by allying with Celts vs Greeks costs us 7gpt plus 100g)
I just do one last whip (granary at Vitoria) and go to Revolution : we draw one turn of Anarchy (of course we are Religious). Min science on Engineering. We have a -9 deficit during Anarchy.
IBT : Russia and Babylon SIGN PEACE ! AHHAHA you gotta be joking !
2-510: we got some unhappiness issues and very low cash because of unit support of course, need to do some MM here and there, we have a lone scientist in Valencia that saves us 5gpt.
in hope of finding territories and huts I take our lone horseman in the galley.
3-490: England has Horses available but for 10gpt plus 25g. I abstain for now. Thier Furs are also to expensive atm. Seville is quite corrupt I switch it to Courthouse.
4-470: Barracks completes in Madrid, I switch to Marketplace because we need more revenue and we have unhapiness issues.
5-450: Round of Map trading nets 10g.
6-430 : Everybody is more or less building SunTzu. Negotiate an ROP with Germany in order to help our galley and avoid problems (WM+7g).
7-410: Valencia finishes Library, starts Rax. I buy Furs from England for 70g + 5gpt, that saves us 3gpt rather than running 20% lux, it also sort of tie them to a deal. Still no good deals on the tech front though.
8-390: zzz
9-370: Zaragosa finshes Acqueduct and goes for Library in order to prevent flips. Babs are ready to talk but the price for peace is too high, gathering swordsmen in order to go for a punitive mission in Bab land.
Russia is up Engineering on everyone else, of course I can not afford it.
10-350: Switch Valencia from Rax to Courthouse (I love those I must say...).

We are pulling 20gpt while giving 14gpt away to other civs, hope you don't mind my very quick revolution and the phony war vs Babylon.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-350_BC.zip

editedfor over enthusiastism on the Religious trait...

I'm not at all surprised at the one turn of anarchy - we are religious, you know ;) If we have swords, we do not want to use them for city defense !
Good job on getting republic - even if we have to pay the Babs ~300 gold to sign peace, we'll still come out well ahead of what it would normally cost.

I see it and should be able to play sometime today.....

Is there Room for one more :)

Is there a chance to declare war vs Russia and get their Silk-city?

And I really want to see Coventry and Dover repainted in blue.
(in 20 turns of couse)


Rowain

Originally posted by CivGeneral
Is there Room for one more :)

No, this game is full.

=================

hope you don't mind my very quick revolution
I would have been disapointed if you didn't.
It is never to soon to get double revenue and faster city growth.

=================

the phony war vs Babylon.
Actually, these scare me big time in deity. With our joke of a military we need to end this on ASAP.

=================

LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Rigdelake (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Originally posted by LKendter
No, this game is full.

Drat :(. Is there a way to Partisipate in this game since the game is full?

No - I have found that 5 is the most these games tolerate without causing it to be to long between turns.

*Sigh* If any Player drops out, Please Let me know via PM. You can freely Put me on the Reserve list if you want to.

LK43 350BC

350BC (0) Switch Vitoria from sword to rax. Seville’s clown to taxman.

I look to see if I can realistically draw in anyone versus the Babs. Germans want 11gpt and 63 gp. Russians are more expensive. Not worth it. Babs want 52 gold, WM, and 6gpt for peace. I take it as we have such a weak military…

I notice that our second gems are not hooked up yet. This is good trade bait. This will be a priority to hook up.

I also look to swing a deal for Engineering to maybe do a twofer or threefer. No one will sell for our entire treasury.

330BC (1) Sell around WM. No trades avail for Eng. Switch Zaragosa to marketplace.

310BC (2) Madrid finished market. Sword ordered. Its scientist reassigned to work a tile. Seville’s taxman changed to scientist to continue research.

290BC (3) A deal completes and we now have 46gpt. Of course, our threefer opportunity is now down to a twofer as the Celts get engineering this turn. :grr:

Form embassy in Greece so that we can try war discounts. Athens has Great library, great lighthouse, marketplace, harbor, rax. 2 lux, horses, no iron. They are in monarchy (probably from war weariness)

Greece would give us Engineering at 15 gpt for alliance against Celts. It is 38 without. Not yet.

IT Babs complete Sun Tzu’s….

270BC (4) :sleep:

250BC (5):sleep:Greece peace with Celts.

230BC (6) Rush harbor in Santiago.

210BC (7) WM 32gpt and 45gold to Greece for Eng. Eng and 20 gold to Ottomans for Feudalism.

190BC (8) :sleep:

IT Babs start Leo’s. England, Greece and Babs have Invention. No deals possible.

170BC Brenus demands 20 gold.

150BC (10) No deals available on Inven. It would allow us to swing a threefer right now.


The game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-150_BC.SAV) :sleep:

Too bad, I would have definitely taken that Alliance with Greeks to save 23gpt on Engineering ;)

LKendter (currently playing)
Jack merchant (on deck)
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


===========================

Hopefully the file server will work tonight. However, I am suspicious of the save game ending in .SAV which can't exist on the file server.

Duplicate post due to database error.

I want delete back.

I didnt get a chance to write up some of my thoughts last night, but here are some things that we should consider......

Attacking either England for Russia. Russia is weaker, but getting that those two nearby English cities would be a big help. Particularly the horses. We can make MDIs right now. The best defenders anywhere are pikes. With a bit of upgrade on our swords and maybe a couple warriors, we could conceivably get a MDI force together and hit the two near English cities quickly. Brace for the counter and get peace ASAP. Might even get some tech out of the deal as well. By that time, knights would probably be around and we could put the horses to use on those....

On a more mundane level, take a look at moving the slider to 20% lux. I was hiring more and more specialists as my turn moved on. Also consider pealing off some more workers from those towns with the specialists. It might be worth firing the scientist because we will almost certainly pull a deal before the 40 turns comes due.

The boat was allowing us to grab an extra 7gpt with map sales. To continue, however, we might need to sign up Greece with a ROP....

I was a little disappointed that rushing the harbor didnt open up any trading opportunities for our gems. The Ottomans are the only other ones with gems, and they must be exporting to both England and the Babs - the only trading partners that we now have. Russia does not have a completed roadnet yet nor a harbor. Germany has no harbor yet.

We need to settle on a FP site. The answer of where to put it will likely depend on who we want to go to war with. If against England, then perhaps Seville would be the right spot. After collecting and or razing Coventry and Dover, this will be well located for future expansion westward. IIRC, Seville is close to finishing a courthouse right now. Maybe it should be swapped over to FP. Perhaps coordinating going to war with when it is done. There is a risk with this spot if it were to fall in the counter, however.......

If we want to war against Russia, then our northern most city would likely be the best spot. But I just dont like the idea of putting an FP with so much jungle close by.

What are your thoughts?

Very quick I am in a rush :
England is an attractive target but I would not go after them, they are strong. Seville is very weakly positionned, would take the brunt of England counter and could even flip as it is almost first ring to London....gut feeling says no.
Russia has horrible territories apart from Dyes
I would go after the Ottomans before they get Sipahis and ally with the English in doing that. If that's successful we could then turn ourselves vs Russia (hoping they would have cleared some jungle). We could let the English grab the Western most coastal cities while we get the cities on their eastern flank.

The Ottomans and Russians are the weakest AI civs. That in itself makes them targets.

England is one of the strongest. No question that attacking England is a riskier proposition in the short term. But if we can take them down a notch, and fill our the lands around our capital, we will be in a much stronger position. Taking Coventry will substantially reduce the flip risk on Seville.

There is also the issue of timing. Right now, the best units are MDIs and pikes, for all civs. Knights are just around the corner. But as we have no horses, we cant get them. And without horses, we have no cavs for the next offensive improvement. Muskets aren't too far away, but there is a window before they become available. Who knows where the saltpeter is, though.

What I am saying is that I think we need to hit in the near future before superior units come online, leaving us behind. We need horses and there are some about 5 squares from our capital. I don't have immediate access to the save, but I dont recall seeing that the Ottomans or Russians have any close horses.

But whatever we decide, I think that it makes sense to coordinate our FP with our intended growing direction. This may not be possible, but it is an important decision.

Lets hear what everyone has to say. We are at a bit of a crossroads in this game.

I just looked at the save; the Russians require a culture expansion to get access to horses, the Ottomans do have horses directly under Istanbul. Both have silks. In the short term, the Russian terrain is a nightmare compared to the Ottoman terrain - in the long term, however, it might actually be more profitable.

If we go after the Ottomans, we need to cripple them completely before Sipahi; if we go after the Russians on the other hand, we could simply take Kiev and Vladivostok and leave it at that.The advantage of the English is that we can move troops in position to take Coventry and Dover on the second turn of the war and get a first-ring city with superb potential. Valencia would make a natural FP if it weren;'t under pressure from Liverpool too.

My vote goes to the English plan. Once we have horses we can prosecute a limited war to gain control of the Russian silks. I would say that I don't much like how our swords are currently positioned: they are all over the place with, to me, no clear purpose. Also, I wouldn't leave units fortified in the jungle. You never know, they have been known to just die.

150 BC - Our world knowledge is pathetically out of date, as England wants $63 & $8/turn (pre-haggle) for an up to date map.
I up luxuries to 20% and fire a bunch of specialist including the token scientist. We can't afford to wait 40 turns for invention.

Compared to the Ottomans we have an average army! That is really amazing as our army sucks.

:confused: Why are we mining the mountain by Seville. Clearing the jungle would help that city a lot more.
Valencia has undeveloped grasslands, but the workers are on the mountain?

110 BC - It is pretty pathetic when I am happy this round lets me sell maps for $1.
Russia has a worker for sale, but our cash position is so bad for tech buying that I pass.

90 BC - I don't believe it. Valencia borders expand and we have horses again for the moment.

50 BC - Well the horses didn't last long, as England has them back. :(

30 BC - This is bizzaro world, as we once we control the horses.

10 BC (I) - Ouch, the price of furs is up to 11gpt to England.

Summary - Our number one question for debate. Where in the world to build the fp?

We should continue to build military, and the decision to try and whack the Ottoman should be made soon. I didn't feel we had enough troops to try it my turn.

We can finally get invention from Russia for gems (trade route just opened), $260 and $23/turn.
The only trouble in the only trade for Monotheism is with Ottoman. Do we really want to give our logical target longbows?

LKendter
Jack merchant (currently playing)
Rowain deWolf (on deck)
Skyfish
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-50AD.zip

Got it.

Preturn: Everything looks good - going over our active deals, I notice we are paying Babylon 6 gpt for peace. I renegotiate the treaty and pay them 100 gold instead. This means that after 20 turns, the peace treaty should still be on the table but we won't have to pay for it anymore.

70 AD (1) Madrid finishes Med Inf, starts another. Seville marketplace -> barracks. Zaragoza barracks -> pikeman. Disband 2 regular warriors where they are not needed for flip protection and where towns are adequately defended. Upgrade 2 swords to Med Inf. I'm not going to buy invention - by the time the Ottomans have it, we'll be ready to beat it out of them. Score 5 gold from wm trading.

IT Germans, Russians start Sistine Chapel.

90 AD (2) 5 more gold from wm trades but it will end soon; the cost to buy ROPs will be higher than what we will get from it. I am gathering our forces in Vitoria and Zaragoza; I'll go in once whe have neough troops.

110 AD (3) The people love Los Reyes Católicos and expand the palace. Our galley sinks (this was from taking a conscious risk - it also saves us 2gpt in upkeep).

130 AD (4) Military completes in various cities; more started.

150 AD (5) &
170 AD (7) More military preparation. Unfortunately, Izmit is size 7 now.

190 AD (8) Valencia, Pamplona complete market, start barracks. A deal expires to give us 93 gpt. The Ottomans still don't have invention.

210 AD (9) More military preparation

IT Greece declares war on the Celts. Seeing as the Greeks don't have iron, I think they are crazy. The Germans want to sell us their world map for 190 gold, no thanks.

230 AD (10) :sleep: The Ottomans have invention now.

We have 14 Med Infs and 2 horses in all. I suggest we strike very soon, perhaps even immediately. We may need to buy monotheism first as that will allow us to see if people have chivalry - if Osman has it, we may be able to beat that out of him, too.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-230AD.zip)

Hell, let's strike NOW baby !

11 turns (till 350AD ) played;

Expect report and game in ~12 hours.

Rowain

I can already smell some blood Rowain....

jack jumped from turn 5 to 7 so he only played 9. I decided to take 11 so that we are now back to the standard numbers.

230AD (0): Mine a plain near Madrid. Then I'll mine the MOuntain. Once the Cathedral is finished Madrid will produce a MedInf in 2 turns;
Buy Mono+Inv+Silks from Russia for Gems + 500 + 48gpt;
The silks let me reduce the Lux so we get 25 gpt back.
Pamplona to Harbor, Valencia to Cathedral;

250AD: War declared on Ottomans.

England complete Leo;

260AD: The first 3 MedInf die vs Spears in Aydin but City captured. then the next 4 MDI die vs Pike in Izmir(?) but the city is razed. This losses hem our progress significantly and we only capture one more town Iznik (in 290AD);

280AD Buy Gunpowder from England for 42 gpt; We have Saltpeter;

300AD: England completes Sistine :eek: england has now 5 Wonders 3 in London 2 in York and work on Copernicus in York


310 Furs from Lizzy cost now 180 + 6 gpt;


Hopefully we can raze/replace Istanbul and Edrine(with Silks and Iron and good chances on coal). Chemistry is out now.

Good Luck and sorry for the short report.

Rowain


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-350AD.zip)

England is becoming a real pain now, they could turn out to be our Nemesis :(

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf

England has now 5 Wonders 3 in London 2 in York and work on Copernicus in York

Chemistry is out now.

Hopefully we can raze/replace Istanbul and Edrine (with Silks and Iron and good chances on coal). Chemistry is out now.


OUCH! How did we fall so badly behind in tech? It looks like we need a marketplace push badly. Our number one goal needs to be improving the economy or we will fall hopelessly behind.

I agree with Rowain and that we need Edrine badly. No iron = no factories, and no rails. Our economy can't support paying for iron.

===========================

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish (currently playing)
Rigdelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


EDIT: Corrected botched play order.

We do have iron - I think Rowain mentioned the iron because Edrine might be an Iron Works candidate. Istanbul should be an excellent FP site should we manage to capture it.
As deity games go, our tech position is far from disastrous. We caught (almost) up from worse in Hot3.

I want to add a new prohibited exploit in the LK series effective now.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Yes I thought about Edrine as a possible IronWork city;

What we really need is a FP fast. Perhaps Zaragoza should start it now;

Our biggest problem are the English. A dogpile against them seems neccessary to win

Rowain

got it !

Guys I normally would not do that but I want us to hear your opinions on the following :
*Suppose* we get a Great Leader in a very early turn vs the Ottomans. Of course the one thing to do will be to rush our FP.
But where ?
Answer as if the city situation has not changed at all, we have no more no less cities than when Rowain finished. The push vs Ottomans will be reall difficult we don't have enough troops to take both Istanbul and Edrine in my set of turns. The Ottomans culture is higher than ours.
I'll hold on playing to hear about y'all until I get home (6 hours from now) and can post the game and report later tonight.

I would go for the FP in the city that built the Settler at the last of my turn; It is NW of zaragossa. Can't remember the Name now; Or to Zaragossa directly. Valencia would be nice if we can go after England sometime but is to high a flip-risk now.


Rowain

Izmit ? That would be my choice too. It already has an aqueduct, which is good. I think Aydin is under cultural pressure from an English city, and we can't take the risk of seeing our FP city flip. As such, the paranoia choice would be Zaragoza, which isn't in a bad position.

Once we have an FP we can also build the filler city next to lake Madrid.

Murcia ?

@Jack : Izmit is a high flip risk as it is really close to Istanbul, would be nice but too risky...

The distance doesn't matter as long as it has control of its own 20 tiles. Don't know if that fits for Izmit; but Murcia should be save.

rowain

Total veto on Valencia and Iznik, I won't have fp at flip risk :hammer:

If it is a leader rush, the new city we are about to build near Istanbul. Size 1 almost never flip, and we make sure to go smack Instanbul out of existence.

If not a leader rush - Salamanca is 2nd ring. It controls all 21 tiles, and can help some of the Ottoman holdings.

[lurker] Can a FP city Flip?[/delurk]

I recall Sirian's Passive Aggressive game and know that he couldn't flip a capital but not sure if that holds true for a Forbidden palace. Ofcourse you run a huge risk of flipping while you are building. You could load it up with obsolete units and hold it until the FP completes.

Yes, an FP city can flip. Only a city with a palace cannot flip.

pre -turn : We have made nice progress in hurting the Ottos, we need to replace those razed sites ASAP we have one settler ready, we will produce one more.
Ottos are "almost deal" on spitting out Chivalry and Theology for Peace.
We have insufficient forces to take Istanbul and Edrine during my turn.

ibt : germans build Cops' Obs, Babs want 28g+ TM, I cave in.
360: moving armies around, will go at Istanbul first. We only have slow units and even Edrine is too far away...
ibt : Ottoman's counter : we lose one MDI in Iznik but the Knight is redlined, we kill one knight near Istanbul.
370: Elite MDI kills redlined Knight, Elite MDI kills Pikeman going for pillage in our lands.
ibt : A Longbow comes out of Istanbul, attacks our Elite knight on a hill, loses and CORDOBA, our First Great Leader is born.
380 : We hit stage 1 War Weariness (?) we need to raise lux to 30% in order to keep productive but that means our income
is down to -2gpt
Cordoba goes back to Salamanca and rushes the Forbidden Palace. In the long term this site is better than Murcia.
ibt : no Ottoman counter attack.
390 : Lux can be taken down to 20% with FP built and Cathedral completed in Madrid.
Santander founded on ruins by Vitoria
Temple rushed in Aydin. The Military advisors says : "the best units the English have is... Cavalry " :eek: :eek:
ibt : Russians building Cops
400 : moving around
ibt : Ottoman counter is strong we lose one MDI but kill 1 knight, 1 longbow and get 1 Elite promotion, one of our MDI is redlined.
410: preparing final assault on Istanbul but I spot some worrying troops build up in England...I have to take an insurance policy
I pay England 25gpt for an Alliance vs Ottoman ! I know it sounds weed but I can feel they are going to attack us with Cavs and that would really harm us, I have a plan of poaching/ finishing off their attacks in order to make some gains vs Ottoman, notably in Istanbul.
420 : English knight moves towards Istanbul. Stacking my MDIs by Istanbul for final assault. We hit WW level 2 (but we're not losing any city and not many units) Lux need to go up to 30% and we lose -18gpt, we have 28g in treasure.
ibt : Greeks demand 20g, this will put us into a deficit situation but we have enough wars on our hand, I cave in. We lose our Marketplace in Iznik (was not very useful actually). Aydin's borders expand into English territory however.
Next turn we have a 48gpt deal ending, that should help us a bit.
430 : More troop movements.
440 : Renegotiate Russian gems for silk deal at 5gpt instead of 48, that gives us some breathing room.
450 : Final assault on Istanbul, lose 3 MDIs but thanks to an English Knight that killed an Elite Ottoman Pike just before, we raze Istanbul, found Asturias on its ruins and move a SoD of wounded units in it.

I know the move to ally with the English will cause some stir, it was a risky move to avoid getting attacked by them in a situation of terrible weakness on our side.
I am still confident it was the right thing to do, I have kept a save of the turn before I made the deal and will check out tomorrow what would have happened if I did not ally with them...
Now is time to reconstruct, rebuild, build up defenses and sue for peace as soon as possible.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-450_AD.zip

Guess our plan for hitting the English cities near Istanbul is out of the window :( At least we have horses now.

If we couldn't afford to buy a tech off the English,I fully support getting an alliance with them. We are now left hoping that they'll polish off the Ottomans quickly though - I don't know how bad for our rep it would be to renege on the English alliance now.

got it. cant play tonight.

Originally posted by Skyfish
preparing final assault on Istanbul but I spot some worrying troops build up in England...I have to take an insurance policy
I pay England 25gpt for an Alliance vs Ottoman !

Now is time to reconstruct, rebuild, build up defenses and sue for peace as soon as possible.




Breaking an alliance with GPT payment will PERMANTLY trash our rep. I did it in GOTM#14, and 600 years later I still could NOT trade gpt for tech to anyone except Persia whom I was fighting at the time.

NO PEACE before the alliance runs out, or England signs a peace treaty.

=====================================

LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Rigdelake (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I got a chance to look at the game.

Our #1 objective to to raze and replace Erdine. Our economy needs further improvement, and having a natural source of silks would help big time.

:confused: Why is there a large stack of workers fortified in Asturias?

Asturias was just founded this turn, and these workers are all Ottomans that were captured when we razed Istanbul. They can still be used but there is no escort available as we can still get attacked by ottomans.
Sorry I did not mention it in my report !

Good News: I am at someone's house who has power.

Bad News: My home lost power last night in a bad ice storm. We will probably be without power for at least a day, if not several.

So......probably makes sense to skip me this turn.

The power went out last night when I was looking over the save. I came to the same conclusion as LK that taking Edrine is the right course of action. Getting some fine Spanish silks would be a nice addition to our empire. It would also not hurt to grab the gems to monopolize those. But Edrine is the better target if we had to choose.

I noticed a couple of MDIs in a city off the front lines. Cant remember the name. Those should be awakened to move on Edrine in 4 turns. We have 17 turns left on the alliance, so we can take our time.

Also, some MMing could occur, getting more revenue by using the lakes, rivers and gems. Further, giving the cow to our new size 2 city will help it a good bit and not hurt the large city's time to construct. Again cant remember city names right now.

Anyway, I will leave it up to the team to decide whether to skip me. I am almost positive that it will be at least 24 hours before I could play. Maybe more. I will let you all know when we get power back and I can play again.

Ridge

LKendter (currently playing)
Jack merchant (on deck)
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

450 AD (pre-turn) - I find some sleeping MI, and move them toward the front.
I reconfigure Barcelona and can get the other Gems square on-line without hurting growth - we need every penny possible.
(I) I watch and English leader go by. :(

460 AD - Looking the military advisor, England is even more dangerous. They are already a democracy.
(I) I can't believe how fast the tech race is going - Babylon is building Shakespeare.

490 AD - It is time to sell our saltpeter. Our other source will be connected in one turn.
Saltpeter and $25 goes to Babylon for Chemistry
I buy Metallurgy from Greece for 148, $62 / turn.
I can't get 2 techs, like I hoped. However, Metallurgy goes to the Celts for Theology, $17, and wm.
We gained a massive amount of new world knowledge.
We now have very little cash to spare again.
(I) The dog pile continues as England sign Russia to an alliance again the Ottomans.
The English are nice enough to kill 2 Ottoman units that were threatening us.

500 AD (I) Unreal, now Babylon is building Bach's.

520 AD - :hmm: Edrine has shrunk in size 2 turns in a row. However, they are republic. Why is it shrinking?
(I) Furs have become almost unaffordable. $12/turn + $58 is the new cost. This leaves us $1/turn income.
We get saved as Salamanca's marketplace comes on-line, and revenue is back up to $8/turn.
The game leader England completes Copernicus's.

530 AD - No further shrinkage, so the 11 MI are ordered to attack. The demonic musketmen in the city kills several MI, but Edrine is no more. [dance]
We have lost 5 total MI, but will have a permanent, flip proof, silk source.
With the English captures, the Ottomans are down to there capital of Konya.
(I) Uh, never mind, the rampaging English have destroyed the Ottomans.

540 AD - We can reduce luxuries back to 10%.
Jaen is formed. If you are wonder why so close to Asturias, the reason to keep it far enough away from the Russian city. I don't want to risk losing silks to a flip.
I take immediate advantage of the new silks, and buy Education from Babylon for $14/turn, $45 and silks. The silks were worth $21/turn pre-haggle pricing.
Our number one goal is improved economy. We need banking ASAP, so I ship $55/turn to Greece and get Banking along with an updated wm. I perform a major build switch to banks, as we need improved cash flow to keep the tech pace going.
I give the Celts banking for monarchy. I don't want to hear any :smoke: comments on this one. Being religious, it would be nice to be able to quickly switch to Monarchy to deal with ww.
(I) I spoke to soon. Babylon is building Newton's. :cry:


Summary - By the time Rowain's turn arrives we should be an economic super power with all those banks coming on-line. Nobody has started Newton's, so we are at most just 3 required techs behind. In addition, our spare gems will free up for tech trading material rather then send them to Russia for silks.

We need to keep selling saltpeter to Babylon, as the will help our tech situation nicely.

I case you are wonder why all the mi are sitting around our new cities - I want those borders to close, and don't want the AI to drop an aggressive city in that area.

Screw all the option techs - we need to catch up in time for ToE and factories.

LKendter
Jack merchant (currently playing)
Rowain deWolf (on deck)
Skyfish
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-550AD.zip

Nice turn Lee !

First :goodjob: Lee and yes Monarchy could get handy.


Originally posted by LKendter
(I) I spoke to soon. Babylon is building Newton's. :cry:

Nobody has started Newton's, so we are at most just 3 required techs behind

:confused:

Future Plans:
We must start a prebuild for ToE now. Second (without looking at the save) how good are our Chances to build some Cav's and take those two english cities? Can we hold out till they will talk?


Rowain

Got it.

Originally posted by LKendter
(I) I spoke to soon. Babylon is building Newton's.

Nobody has started Newton's, so we are at most just 3 required techs behind



Originally posted by Rowain deWolf
:confused:

Future Plans:
We must start a prebuild for ToE now. Second (without looking at the save) how good are our Chances to build some Cav's and take those two english cities? Can we hold out till they will talk?

Rowain


On the confused - I wrote my summary one turn early after 540 AD moves, and forgot to correct it.

I agree on finding our best city, and starting a palace pre-build soon.

England would rip us to sherds right now. We share a very long border with them, and simply don't have enough power to protect that border.

Lee : would you consider it a :nono: if I replay my turns and share with everyone what would have happened if I did not pull the English in an Alliance vs Ottomans ?
I am very curious to see what they would have done but have not done it yet...

Originally posted by Skyfish
Lee : would you consider it a :nono: if I replay my turns and share with everyone what would have happened if I did not pull the English in an Alliance vs Ottomans ?
I am very curious to see what they would have done but have not done it yet...


This gets into a grey area that I would prefer to avoid.

Inherited turn: Make some small adjustments in the cities to get Barcelona and Salamanca to grow slightly faster. I would suggest Barcelona as the city to prebuild for ToE but I will let it complete its bank first. Disband 2 regular warriors in Santiago and Murcia.
Everything looks fine.

IT The English demand and receive tm+21 gold. On the bright side, this brings them up to polite level.

560 AD (1) We now have enough income to buy astronomy. The Celts still lack it though so I will wait a few turns so we can buy it at last-civ prices. Owing to the setup of the tech tree, we cannot get a 2for1 for any other required tech with astronomy - if I can get a 2fer1 for military tradition and astronomy though, I will do that.

IT England and Babylon sign an MPP. The Russians start Shakespeare's.

570 AD (2) :sleep:

580 AD (3) Babs starts Smith's. Noone is building Magellan's yet. It would seem that the AIs beelined towards the required medieval age techs and are now going for the unrequired ones.

590 AD (4) Santander finishes temple, starts granary. Entertainer hired to keep Salamanca from rioting (it lacks a cathedral).

600 AD (5) Asturias completes temple, starts granary.

IT London completes Shakespeare's.

610 AD (6) :sleep:

IT Germans start Magellan's

620 AD (7) I Buy Military Tradition from the Greeks for wm, 45 gpt and 350 gold. I then buy astronomy from Celts for MT and 120 gold. Madrid completes bank, starts cavalry. We want at least some of these.

630 AD (8) Barcelona builds bank, starts cathedral. Murcia and Sevilla build bank, start cavalry. MM Madrid for 1 less shield but +2gpt by working the lake (I overlooked this earlier - it's still making a round 20 spt now so no wastage occurs).

640 AD (9) We have enough income to buy physics now, however, it may once again be better to wait until the Celts have it.

650 AD (10) Valencia builds bank, starts cavalry. Vitoria builds market, starts bank. The Russian gems for silks deal is now expired and I cancel it since we obviously don't need silks anymore.

The Celts unfortunately got economics and navigation before physics, so we cannot get it at last-civ prices yet. If we want it anyway, get it from the Greeks or the Russians as both lack gems and we have free gems to trade with now. It may be better to wait until the Celts have physics - we will soon have enough gpt for a ToG/magnetism 2fer after they do and get either one of those.

Barcelona will grow to size 12 next turn and be unhappy. If we want it to start the ToE prebuild, consider rushbuilding the cathedral instead of hiring entertainers/upping lux.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-650AD.zip)

Got it

Rowain

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (currently playing)
Skyfish (on deck)
Rigdelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Power is finally back on at my home. It is good to get the heat turned back on because it got down to a couple of degrees above freezing inside the house. Actually had to drain the pipes in fear of them freezing and bursting....

Anyway, looks like a couple of good turns, Lee and Jack. And Lee, would you please correct the spelling of my name in the order list?

Thanks, Ridge

650AD (0): We are weak vs England and Babs and average vs Russia ; Russia is still medieval so perhaps I’ll have a chance to trade 2 for 1 ;

Entertainer in Salamanca to Taxman;

660AD (1) rush Cathedral in Barca;

Barca starts Palace as prebuild for ToE;

680AD(3): Hammurabi asks for a contribution to finish Bach’s Cathedral; We give him a TM + 36 gold which is sufficient for the Babylonians to complete the Cathedral

690AD (4): Saltpeter + 3 gpt + 456 gold to Babs for Physics;

700AD (5): Trade round:
Gems + 54 gpt to Greek for Magnetism;
Magnetism + 51 gpt to Russia for ToG;
Now lets help the Celts:
Physics to Celts for Music Theory and their valuable treasure(9 gold);
ToG + Magnetism to Celts for Economics + Navigation (we can build our wonderful UU :) )

Babs have Nationalism + Steam all other (except Celts) have Nationalism;
Buy Ivory rom Germany for 25 gpt. This let me reduce Luxtax to 0 and increased our income from 87gpt to 120 gpt. So 10%Luxtax are worth 58gpt !!.

710AD (6): Celts declare vs Babylon; England declares vs Celts and the Celts start 2 Wonder;
Fur fro England cost now 239 gold + 13 gpt which I happily pay (see above).

720AD (7) : After Germany in the last round comes now Russia and wants an MPP. I declin.
Babylon complete Smith and Newton and start Suffrage :eek:

730AD(8): Our Silk deal with Babs has ended however since none have Steam besides Hammy Silks and our complete income of 193gpt are not enough.

740AD(9) Germany cascade-completes Magellan;

750AD(10): England has now Steam too but I suggest to wait till at least two of the other three has it too.


Good Luck :)

Rowain


PS: Asturias and Iznik should be switched from Market to Courthouse; other changes as you see needed. The Settler built in Santander should settle 2 North of Santander. We have there a lot of useful tiles next to our FP which are not in any city-border!

A Picture:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/750AD.jpg

And the Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-750AD.zip)

Further Comments:

Perhaps we should plan for some research too = building some Libs and Unis

at the moment we can research Medicine in 31 turns (at -19)

rowain

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish (currently playing)
Ridgelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

If we have enough cavs and cannon, should we maybe try to trigger our GA against Russia ? The terrain is such that they cannot hit us very easily, and conquistadores should be able to kill retreating cavs/1hp rifles. Ideally, we'd need to hit them before replacable parts/ after we get in range of acquiring factories. A quick GA could very much improve our chances of getting ToE.

I agree that Russia should probably be the next target. They are weakest and hold some would-be core cities around our FP. I would like to hit England to slow them down, but the time is not right yet with easier pickings afoot.

I am looking forward to our Conquistadores. I have not played Spain yet. But if I read the stats correctly, they effectively have a base movement of 6 irregardless of terrain type. These guys are pillaging machines. A handful of these guys strategically pillaging on the first turn of war could severely cripple our opponents. They are like special-ops forces. Couple the pillaging with some worker captures, and we have a nice way to hamstring our opponents.

There is no question we want to go golden. We want to build a feq conquistadores.

[delurk] I wouldn't go too crazy with the UU. They are expensive for what they give you. Yes the movement is nice and they can be sent everywhere but there defense is questionable. Pillaging is nice but they are left hungout to dry if you push them in too far.
[/lurking]

OK I got it !

Our lil'Spain does not look that bad but both Babs and England are quite mighty. Would love to see them have a go at each other at one point...
owever our 3 neighbors have Nationalism and England and Babylon have an MPP :argh:

ToE is the main objective right now with secondary being a small war with Russia to acquire some techs.
We would need to secure some MPPs to prevent Russia from bringing on of the 2 biggies against us, that is the main danger. But we don't have Nationalism.
First things first: ToE, 24 turns left on the prebuild after some MM. We have no research going and need Medicine (none of the
AIs have it yet), Steam Power available for 140gpt plus all our treasure and Electricity and of course Sci Meth. Hum...

We are very dependant on the AIs to research for us and I do not believe they will let us have Electricity or Sci Meth that easy...
I believe we should take a bit more control our destiny here, if I push the slider to 90% science we lose -346gpt and can get Medicine in 13 turns :eek:
not good...We have very few libraries or universities, we don't even have one in Madrid !
My turn will be devoted to a major science push. Let's see if that can help. Weed me as much as you want...

Switch build orders around, to libraries, unis and courthouses.

790ad : English start Suffrage. Logrono is built 2 north of Santander.

All through the turns we are down : Steam, Nat, PP and Chivalry, except on Celts who suck just as much as us.

820ad : Babs find Medicine but even 1323g + 253gpt is not enough...

850ad : All our Libs and Unis are 1 turn from completion. The cities are not micro-managed to take that into account, the MM is left for max production.

After that turn is completed, we will have Science buildings in all cities where it's worth it. Hopefully that will help us if we have to research ourselves at one point either before or after ToE.
Next turn could be devoted to military build up (some banks and MPs), however I find it dangerous to attack Russia without Nationalism and at the moment Nationalism is very much over priced.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-850_AD.zip

LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Ridgelake (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I see it and will try to get to it in tonight (US time)

Comments:

a) Nothing against some Unis or Libs; but I hope we have not delayed any banks or markets for this.

b) We have still no steam? Was it not possible to buy it when all the other AI have it? On my last turn we made 200gpt and we still have only 1300 gold. Let me guess you rushed a lot of Librarys instead of buying Steam??


Rowain

LK43 – 850 AD

850AD (9) MM some to maximize revenue and food in all of the cities that were rush built. Switch one university build to a bank. All of the rest of the uni builds have banks. Switch 1 lib to a market.

I wake 9 workers who are mining a hill 2 squares west of Salamanca. This hill cannot be worked by any city. Come on, Skyfish. Please pay a bit more attention. I know that you are better than this.

Diplo check reveals that we are behind Steam, Nationalism, Chivalry and Printing Press to all civs but Celts. Celts have PP and Chivalry over us. I will try to 2fer or 3fer on Steam. Nationalism cannot be bought for our entire treasury (11 gold) and economy (261gpt).

125gpt and WM to Greece for Steam. Steam to Celts for PP, Spices, Incense, 27 gold (treasury) and WM. They have no gpt to offer. I know that we don’t need these lux, but we can free up some other deals in time with these.

Greece, England, and Babs have Ind. Babs have monopoly on Medicine. Everyone, including the Celts, has Democracy.

Our pre-build on ToE has 18 turns left and I have serious doubts about our ability to acquire the needed techs in time. But Ind would allow us to go Suffrage, which is more shields than our palace prebuild, I believe. We could also twofer Ind for Democracy. Being religious, this would be a useful gov change.

We have 2 sources of coal. One in cleared jungle between Barcelona and Seville. We missed Ironworks by 1 square in Seville by the placement of the iron. The other coal is right next to Salamanca.

Ahh, would you look at this. Poor Lizzie needs Coal. So does Brennus for that matter. Lizzie will pay 61 gpt for it.

Instead, coal, 83gpt and WM to Lizzie for Ind. Ind to Cathy for Democ and 31gpt. Ind to Biz for Free Artistry, Chivalry, WM, 24gpt and 40 gold.(all he had).

We are down Nationalism to everyone but the Celts. We are down Corporation to Greece, England and Babs. Down Medicine to the Babs.

The Babs want silks. So off go our extra for 5 gold and 21 gpt. I would like to wait on the trade to bundle them with the salt that will expire in 4 turns, but I don’t want the Russians to jump in and export in our stead.

I hire a scientist in Asturias to do 40 turns on Nationalism. The other civs will never trade this to us in our lifetimes.

Palace pre-build switched to Suffrage, due in 30.

University builds all switched over to factories.

As we now have steam and can build rails, I wake the 7 otto workers who were clearing jungle by Jaen. I would have let them finish, but they have 4 turns to complete the job. As Jaen has a lot of other tiles to work, rails will get prioritized.

So now, after an hour or so of these changes and negotiations, do I move forward. We have 83 gold and 130gpt right now.

IT Babs and Celts sign peace.

860AD (1) Asturias and Jaen from courthouses to markets. Iznik courthouse to granary.

I find workers of GoTos. Skyfish, this is a big :nono:

Medicine has made it to Greece and England. So Wines, 99gpt, 200 gold and WM to Greece for Medicine. Medicine, WM and 19gpt to Germany for Corporation. Medicine to Russia for 19gpt, WM and 30 gold. Brennus has nothing to offer.

I tried to ply Russia with Med, Corp, our economy (22gpt at the moment) for Nationalism. It was doubtful.

We are at tech parity with the leaders with the exception of Nationalism.

Should have done this a turn earlier, but revolt to democracy.

870AD (2) GPT up to 61 coming out of anarchy. Russia and Celts cant offer squat for our techs.

880AD (3) Madrid and Salamanca factories to stock exchanges.

Greeks and Babs have electricity.

890AD (4) Seville and Murcia factories to Stock Ex.

Sell Salt to Hammi for 45gold and 35gpt. We could not buy electricity @ 3rd.

900AD (5) Valencia and Zaragoza factory to worker. I will skim some here. I missed the opportunity on Madrid. Other cities don’t have enough food to skim.

IT Ivory deal with Germany expires saving us 25gpt.

910AD (6) England now has electricity. Our gpt is back up to 209.

Greeks want gems, 483 gold, 149gpt for elec @ 4th. With no 2fers available, I will wait. But I do sell them gems for 17gpt and 10 gold.

Cathy and Brennus still cant offer squat for corporation.

920AD (7)

IT Lizzie wants 27gpt for furs. I will decline and buy ivory from the non-tech leader Germany.

930AD (8) Buy ivory from Germany for 27gpt. Somehow Cathy got both electricity and corporation.

Everyone but Brennus has Elec.

No choice, 140gpt and 100gold to Biz for elec.

Babs have replaceable parts, a monopoly.

940AD (9) Salamanca stock to coal plant.

950AD (10) Madrid stock to worker. Need to skim more. We have so many improvements to make in our lands with rails and hospitals soon.

I will leave some movements left on workers. Lizzie showed up with refining and traded with the Babs. Germany has replace parts.

The military roadnet is complete.

Senor Ridgelake II is out of here!

Good luck to the next leader!
The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-950_AD.SAV)

BTW, I am out of town until Tuesday. Be good, all :)

My apologies for the worker blunders Ridge, thsi was definitely not one of my better turns.
I purposely timed the builds so that you could veto any, if needed.

A couple of notes before I finally head out of here...

1) With the military roadnet now complete, move units around and upgrade them. There are a number of cats and spears about.

2) Salamanca can do a Hoover prebuild after its coal factory.

3) I traded our only wines to the Babs. I did import ivory from Germany. There is a cost differential here of about 5 gpt. Up to you if the differential is worth draining money from the tech leading Babs.

4) The Celts will be excellent lux importers for the forseeable future. We can offload older techs to them to keep their 2 luxes coming our way.

There was more, but I cant think of it now. Take care and good luck.

Ridge

This is great work, Ridgelake !

:goodjob: Ridgelake


Sounds like a really great turn :)



rowain

I find workers of GoTos. Skyfish, this is a big

Uh Skyfish, please read standard LK rules.
ALL automation of workers is prohibited.

=====================================

LKendter (currently playing)
Jack merchant (on deck)
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Ridgelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Of course it's an oversight but I did not know that GoTo orders is considered an "automation" :confused:
I never give GoTo orders of more tnan 2 turns anyway. Will not do it again... :(

@skyfish - Sorry, bad wording. However, it is bad pratice to leave goto orders for the next player.

===============================
I will leave some movements left on workers.
Thank god you did, as we that may have made a difference on ToE.

===============================

950 AD (pre-turn) - Having just suffered though SP5 without rifleman, I don't even want to deal with that again.
The Corp, Electric, and Medicine go to the Celts and we get Nationalism, $34, and wm. I couldn't even get $1/turn from him.
WT??? - We are trying for suffrage without a factory, AND didn't even mm the city for maximum shields?
I save 1 turn via mm, and send ALL workers to that city. I just saved another turn with railing just one square.
It was correct at 850 AD for maximum shields, so the problem occurred after railing.


I upgrade as many troops as I can to rifleman.
(I) Greece and England ally vs. the Celts.

960 AD - I shave another 3 turns off the ETA of Suffrage.
All of our border towns with England have a rifleman on top.
(I) Bad news - Babylon is building ToE, which means a risk of Suffrage to ToE cascade.

970 AD - I inherited the game with 19 turns to suffrage, and it is now just 11 turns.
Just two nations have ToE, so no way to buy scientific method at this point.
I finish the cheap upgrade of Musketmen to Rifleman.
(I) Double bad news - England completes Suffrage, and my worst fear arrives.

980 AD - We get a major break, and Germany has just gotten scientific method. I would prefer to help him more then the monster England, so I send $132/turn and $35 to get it.
OUCH - Barcelona still needs 3 turns for ToE.
I find that I even missed a mistake, and caught it to late. The coal square with extra shields should have gone to Barcelona. :cry:
Not all the civs have SM, but the techs I want are from Greece, and it doesn't have enough value at the moment for him.
(I) The world war is beginning, as Babylon and England ally vs. the Celts.

990 AD - I am nervously counting ToE at 2 turns to go. We have to make it through this inter-turn to get ToE.
(I) It gets bloodier, as Russia allies with the Celts vs. Babylon. This could get very interesting. Do we have a GA excuse coming up?

1000 AD - [dance] It is just one turn to ToE. Since the human player builds first, we should get it! [dance]

(I) We do get ToE despite some mistakes. Ridgelake and I both missed giving the extra coal square to Barcelona. When the rails went through the squares, Barcelona should have been mm after each worker action.

1010 AD - Our shield powerhouse of Salamanca orders up Hoover due in 12 turns. Make that 11 after the missing piece of rails are completed.
Our second best shields source is Madrid that starts Wall Street due in 8 turns. Make that 7 after some rails around the city.
I start a 40 turn token research on Radio, which I have no question we will get.

Time to go trading:
I give it to Babylon first, as he gives more cash up front. We get Replaceable parts, Communism, $666, wm and $115/turn.
We have 3 sources of Rubber [party]

Atomic Theory goes to Germany for Refining, wm, $40 and $42/turn.
It is not connected, but we have oil by Santiago and Aydin. [party]

Atomic Theory goes to England for Sanitation, $378 and $121/turn.
I feel pity for Russia as Babylon is having them for lunch. I give Cathy Communism for $17 and 2 workers.
I begin upgrade our rifleman to Infantry.

1020 AD - I continue the push to upgrade units, as we are at tech parity for the moment. I want to get 2 infantry in every border town.

1030 AD - I don't expect Russia to last much longer :flamedevi
I buy 2 more workers for Scientific Method.
FYI - The Russian capital is St. Petersburg.

1040 AD - Steel has arrived, but no way I am trading Electronics until AFTER Hoover Dam is completed.
:hmm: Why do I have this urge for some Golden Vodka :satan:
War is declared on Russia. We are very disappointed with our cavalry, as 8 of them can't deal with Vladvostok.

1050 AD - The Celts are so far behind us that I think we can trade tech for luxuries for the rest of the game. This time they get scientific method for 2 luxuries.

Well the conquistador has one good use this turn - worker raiding. I snag 3 workers 2 squares inside the Russian border, retreat them and protect them with infantry.

I have run out of pikeman to upgrade, so I upgrade our first catapult to artillery.


Summary - We got lucky that mistakes didn't cost us ToE.

Jack, you mission is to find a soft target, and get us our golden age. I never expected to so many cavalry at Vladvostok. If case you are wondering why the warriors and mi crossing the Russia borders - I was looking for a soft target to hit with the conquistador.
You have the key turn to go golden age.



LKendter
Jack merchant (currently playing)
Rowain deWolf (on deck)
Skyfish
Ridgelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1050AD.zip

Got it.

Superb job on getting us ToE, LK and Ridge !

I'll try to draw some blood as in Hot3 :D

on edit: What did you want to do with that settler ? Replace a Russian city ?

The settler was hoping to replace Vladvostok before our cavalry bit big time.

Above all, find an archer, longbow, or other weak target to get us our GA - The #1 reason I attacked.

I figured as much. will do.

Should be able to play either late tonight or tomorrow.

Summary: We are in our Golden Age !

Preturn: Everything looks good except Salamanca, where I work a just-railroaded bonus grass instead of a plain to gain a turn on Hoover - its food box is already full so it doesn't need surplus food anymore until it builds a hospital. I upgrade one med inf to guerilla to reinforce the defenses of Aydin next turn. I also hurry the market in Iznik for 44 gold as otherwise it will be unhappy next turn.

IT Celts and Greeks sign a peace treaty

1060 AD (1) Iznik marketplace - factory, Murcia Infantry - artillery, Zaragoza cavalry - cavalry. Upgrade 2 more cats to artillery. Our income jumps to +592gpt as deals expire. The Babs now have silks so I sell them to the English instead for wm, 20gpt and 300 gold to discourage them from stabbing us in the back. We won't want to take them on until motorized transportation and tanks anyway. No suitable targets have presented themselves but I dangle some warriors and a med inf in front of Cathy to tempt her out.

1070 AD (2) :aargh: our regular warrior on a hill actually defeats a Russian rifleman ! The other warrior is offed by a longbow, but Bab Cavalry kills the longbow ! Don't they want us to get a Golden Age ?
Logroño swapped to aqueduct, workers to continue maximizing every size-12 city for shields. Factories before hospitals, it is. Our brave warrior that defeated a rifleman advances on Krasnoyarsk.

IT Unreal - Our Med Inf in open ground next to Vladivostok beats back a Cossack. I couldn't get such results if I wanted to, and right now, I don't :mad: The Babs capture Kiev.

1080 AD (3) Our artillery SOD (consisting of 3 artilley :lol: ) bombs Vladivostok back to size 6. 3 more guns will be ready next turn,when we will hopefully be able to storm the city and knock a 1hp defender off for our GA. I check diplo for Electronics prices; the Babs are closest, offering steel, 82 gpt and 1300 gold. England offers much more. I'm not going to sell yet - I *think* the Babs got a GL.
Madrid completes Wall Street, I decide to slip in a few more troops before starting on a hospital. I want more artillery in particular.

IT A cavalry succesfully defends against another Cossack, but the Russians move a rifleman out of Vladivostok to kill it. GA next turn ?

1090 AD (4) Our artillery reduces the rifle to 1 hp and the second Conquistador wins it: Golden Age [party] [dance] Our income jumps to 973 gpt. We come ever so close to capturing Vladivostok but a 1hp Cossack remains in the city.
The Greeks got steel before atomic theory so we swap techs with them. Espionage is also around. The Babs must have bought it from the English or the Germans, as they have no gpt to offer for Electronics. Barcelona builds a factory, starts a stock exchange. Hoover still due in three.

IT The Babs raze Tbilisi. I couldn't get all troops out of Bab territory last turn and we are ordered out. The Babs remain gracious but I gift them 80 gold just to be sure.

1100 AD (5) We capture Vladivostok with no further casualties. It's size one so I keep it. I found Valladolid where Tbilisi used to be - it starts a temple. Since WW is rearing its ugly head and we have nothing more to gain from war, I make peace with Russia for WM + 5 gold
Hospitals are ordered up where units complete.

IT Germany declares war on the Celts.

1110 AD (6) Hoover is due next turn, so I can now sell electronics. We get espionage, furs, 202 gpt and 1000 gold from the English, and dyes and 107 gpt from the Germans. The Babs are able to offer only 15 gpt, which is too little (they have gone communist - I'd prefer it if they were able to keep up with the English).
Just to be sure, I upgrade another 6 MInfs to guerilla, as we have little or no military and the Babs are on the warpath already. Temples are hurried in Vladivostok and Valladolid.

1120 AD (7) WLTKDs erupt in most cities and the people expand the palace. Salamanca completes the Hoover Dam and starts on a hospital.

IT Germany declares war on the Russians.

1130 AD (8) Production orders remain infrastructure, interspersed with some military. I'm gathering our artillery in Madrid and our cavalry in Murcia for easy reference. I hurry factories in Iznik and Santiago for 650 gold total. England shows up with combustion - 2 turns too late. I'll wait for the Germans to get it before buying/stealing it.

1140 AD (9) The German ivory deal ends, and they want 40 gpt to renew. Since we do not immediately need it for happiness, I'll hold off for now.

1150 AD (10) :sleep: Land improvements almost done. I forgot to clean the pollution by Pamplona, sorry.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1150AD.zip)

Well Russia was stubborn to give us an opening for the GA, but we get it. :)

I 100% support the MI to Guerrilla upgrade, and would prefer to upgrade every last unit we have. We are cash rich with Radio due for another killer round of trading.
Our biggest risk at the moment is weak military, as we have plenty of resources and territory.

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (currently playing)
Skyfish (on deck)
Ridgelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Things are looking good indeed m'friends !
We should now start to focus on our victory condition : space ? UN ? military ?

Got it

Rowain

Wow, guys, great turns! This game has really come around for us. Great job Lee and Jack :)

As for a victory condition, I can see this one going to space. We could try military, but that will be a long arduous task. There is soooo much land to capture with several strong opponents to take down.

I'd support space, with diplo as a backup - with the Ottomans dead, everyone likes us now. However, diplo would be too much of a anticlimax to go for for any other reason than denial.

In any case, we need to continue the military push as a deterrent All our med infs have been upgraded, but we need more guns and, I think, more cavs simply to tide us over until tanks.

By the time tanks roll around though, our cities won't have much left to produce other than those - if we beeline to modern armour in the modern age, we may be able to blow the socks off the AIs. England to our south is in open land - superb tank country (although that works against us, too). Germany lacks oil, so no panzers for them, the Babs are now falling behind unless they return to democracy soon and they lack rubber, which would make them prime targets for a hostile takeover. The Celts are pathetic and the Greeks aren't up to much either. If we take down England first (with tanks), we should be able to roll over the remaining opposition.

I haven't thought about how we win yet.

However, I really don't want a diplomatic win this game. To me, that is a fall back if nothing else is viable. We are quite strong, and could easily blow the AI out of the water with tanks if needed.

We have the needed resources for military.
We have no clue if we have the need resources for Space Race.

For the moment, we want to strengthen our position above all.

expect Report and Game in the next 5-6 hours.

@LKendter I have just reread our German-game ;)

so I think Military-victory is possible




Rowain

Sorry I have only time for a very short summary:

We are now at war with Germany and Babylon.

After a lot of MM and building vaious staff (manly Artillery and Inf) I decided to try to steal Combustion from Babylon in the year 1210 AD. I tried on Babs simplwe because we had no Deals left with them at that time. This Stealattempt failed and lead to a Wardeclaration from Babs. I then signed England (for 29gpt) and later Greek (for 25gpt) to the war. Germany would not accept such a deal. Since they had a MPP with Babs they declared war too when I first bombarded some Babs units;

On the positive side we have now Agents in Babylon and Germany. I used the Agent in Germany to steal Combustion. Later I used our Embassy in England to steal Flight; To compensate the loss of the GermanDyes I bought Ivory from England; In 1250AD I renewed our Deal with Celts by selling them Athomic for his 2 Luxuries:


Warreport: Babylon is at war with everyone except Germany;
Germany is at war with Greek, England and us; We have pillaged the geman Rubber;

I built 2 Settlers One should be used to settle 3 il north of Jaen to secure that Rubber there.

turn 1250AD is not completed


Since I won't be able to play till Tuesday 22nd I wish you good Luck and I'm sure that the Game will be over at that time


Thanks for the Game :)

Rowain


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1250AD.zip)

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (out till Apr 22)
Skyfish (currently playing)
Ridgelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Some additional thoughts :


We have some cities which make 70 or a bit more shields after waist; So please use the rush Worker-rush Settler let finish Artillery move;

we can switch to wartime Mobi once the GA is over; I expect England to have tanks during the next 10 turns;


Good Luck Skyfish and

Happy Easter to all :)


Rowain

Got it !

Just a heads-up to the team that I won't be able to play until late on Sunday or Monday morning at the earliest. Feel free to skip or swap my turn if it comes up before then (I will be able to access the forums before then).

These were extremely long turns, the war was raging movement was limited but we suffered almost no loss. The Babs however are getting in real bad shape now. I only have time for a short report sorry.

Early :
We have 50 infantries and 25 artilleries but only 5 cavs: we are in serious need of offensive units !
Some orders switched around, we bomb loads of Bab stacks but can't really finish them off.
Use the worker/settler trick to produce 1 unit a turn in most of our cities (13 units a turn! +5 every 2 turns). It's so efficient I almost consider it an exploit.
Palma founded on defensive position by German isthmus and Cordoba founded where instructed by Rowain.

Middle : I am worried about the Celts being very weak because if the Greeks run over them they will have a HUGE territory
and could become a powerhouse, I want to keep the Celts in the race so I gift them Coal (we have 3 extras) and some techs.
Also the Celts are shipping us 2 valuable luxs, dont want to lsoe those. I also sign them up for an embargo vs the Babs.
Major Babs SoDs get killed, they are now willing to pay us for peace, they have Mass Prod in 1270. Babs are in Communism of course but not the Germans.
Our Golden Age ends in 1275, we still make aro. 760gpt. Use the Cartouche governor trick to manage the end of GA moods (see
RBP8 for details), helpful. We have 3 clowns across the country at 30% lux, war weariness someone ?
We plant a spy in London, they are in Anarchy, going to Communism ?. Consider stealing Mass Prod from Babs or Germans but we have no real interest for it.

End : Major operation to take Kiev and all those nice Silks. Go into Mobilization right at end of GA.
We renew Furs deal with England for 30gpt + 312g. Another deal ends taking our income down to 441gpt.
We take Kiev and produce a great leader, I would suggest keeping him for the UN.
In 1280 the Babs are on the verge of being gassed. They only have 16 cavs but our offensive force is now 40 cavs !
We also have 40 arts so I concentrate more on Infantry prod now.
English capture Odessa and have moved towards Nimrud, this could be annoying as they would almost entirely surround us.
We kill a Bab Great Leader and our forces move towards St Petersburg and Nimrud. I buy Mass Prod for Silks and Flight from Alex.
The Germans land an insignificant force on our coast by Santiago, it gets destroyed.

In 1295 : Babs and Germans discover Amphibious warfare and Radio ! :eek: :argh: Both England and Greece do not have it yet
as they are both at war. We get a Palace extension.

Palma was founded for defense but also to allow us to bring the offensive to the North of Babland and divert their forces,
feel free to fill up some transports and go for it :)


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1300_AD.zip

LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (out till Apr 22)
Skyfish
Ridgelake (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Got it and will try to start on it today.

Excellent turn by the way, Skyfish :goodjob:

Thanks mate !

Forgot to mention we have a GL sleeping in Madrid but Fission is around the corner as both Scientific civs Germany and Babs found Radio.

We do have a strong military advantage now, even though the Mobilization is now difficult as we can not build Culture. We have around 8 turns of Allliance and I would not want to break it...
The Babs having no Infantry are actually weak, we could pounce them properly and Germany has quite a small army...

We could maybe go for Domination by wiping out the Babs, the Germans and then landing in Greece/Celt continent !
The tech pace could slow down and I don't believe the English would have time to launch before we dominate.
That'd be fun... just a wild thought though....

Slow but sure progress against the Babs.

1300AD (0) We are at war with the Babs and Germans.

Switch a few builds around. Madrid to Battlefield Med. Pamplona to Battleship. Santiago to destroyer. I want SOME navy.

Salamanca to airport to make vet planes.

Whoa, those are some nice SODs there that you left me, Skyfish!

Nimrud falls! Some artillery moved to advance on Izibia.

Pick off some German cavs.

IT Bab counter is stronger than expected. 9 cavs hit Nimrud. Germans sign up Celts to declare on England.

1305AD (1) kill the Bab cavs. Bomb Izibia and St. Pete. Move some unit into position to bomb Frankfurt.

IT Nimrud flips to the Babs. It will be raized.

1310AD (2) Izi razed. Replaced by Teruel

1315AD (3) Izibia razed. Replaced by Almeria. St. Petes captured. Larsa razed.

Iznik switched to settler as it is running 3 specialists to keep peace.

I just noticed something odd. The citizen of Almeria is Bab, not Spanish. Perhaps the nationality in the settler carried over.

1320AD (4) Move forward to get attack on Samarra and Sverd.

1325AD (5) Leon founded on former Larsa site. Bomb the heck out of Samarra.

1330AD (6) Get radio. Trade it to England for Amph war. Babs show up in modern digs. They have motorized transport. And wont give for peace.

Svedblahblah is razed.

1335 (7) Bomb. Kill counters. I let the English alliance against Babs expire. Buy Eng ivory for 50gpt.

Greek alliance over.

1340(8) Bomb.

1345(9) Found Zamora north of Palma. Samarra razed.

Babs will give 135gpt for peace. But no Motorized transport.

IT England made peace with Babs.

1350AD (10) Renew our 2 lux with Brennus for Mass Production. Lizzie and Biz have motor transport.

I will leave full movement on all units for LK.



The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1350_AD.SAV)

Nice progress Ridgelake ! :goodjob:
I would definitely make peace with Babs and everyone else to get out of Mobilization and rebuild our newly acquired territory. 20 turns should just be enough for that.
We also have to plan our next offensive....with tanks ? or with MAs ? Babs having no Infantry could still fall for a full-on Tank rush...

edit : looking at the save, the Babs will take peace and give us Tanks for only around 115g ! Definitely worth it, that's about a 3000g discount !
England does not have Salpeter :eek: ....interesting.... :D
Germany has no Coal :eek: ....interesting.... :D
Some major trading opportunities Lee, you'll have a nice round ;)

It was definitely too late in the night for me to make an optimal decision on the peace initiative.

On the pro-war side, the Babs dont have much right now. They are countering each turn with about 5-6 cavs. I expect those to turn over to tanks soon though. On another note, it takes several turns with a very big artillery SOD to work down their size 25+ cities. This means a prolonged war whenever we decide to do it.

I think that it would be worth considering attacking their western city, I think its size 12 now. It would take a couple of rounds to get our artillery over there. We could also push up the east coast.

Another idea is to make peace with the Babs for a cheap tech and then go pummel Germany. I didnt make much headway on them, but I did bomb down their nearest city substantially and also bomb/pillaged some along their southern shore with battleships and destroyers. I cut off their only source of either coal or rubber with this. Forget which. I also made sure that the Bab/German alliance was down to 1 oil (on north Babs shore). The other sources were pillaged/captured. This actually might be another reason to take that western Bab town as it is closest to a pillaged oil.

Of course the third option would be to make peace with both, rebuild for 20 turns, and then roll over them with tanks. But keeping oil from the germans will keep panzers offline. A good plan in my book.

In hindsight, I should have used the leader on an army. There are so many battles now that leaders would come quickly. I dont think that we have built any armies. So we have missed out on the Epic and Pentagon, etc. A tank army or 5 would be nice ;).

I am sure that Lee will make the right moves.

Originally posted by Ridgelake
It was definitely too late in the night for me to make an optimal decision on the peace initiative.

On the pro-war side, the Babs dont have much right now. They are countering each turn with about 5-6 cavs. I expect those to turn over to tanks soon though.



Uh, no rubber = no tanks. :D

===========================

:king: Peace, what is this talk of peace. The king is back, and isn't going to stop. General Lee rides again.


Ridgelake suggest peace?
Wrong answer, right answer =
:hammer: :tank: :rocket2: :sniper: [plasma] :ripper: :shotgun:

Is the above enough of a hint what is happening with my 10 LONG turns in progress that have including the razing of Berlin?

@Lee :

I had heard rumors you were a warmonger my friend ;)

Of course I totally approve going on with war, both Babs and Germans are weak and there is a definite window of opportunity here as you saw.

Well even size 20 cities don't hold well vs. Artiller SoD and cavalry rush. ;)



The world as of 1350 AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-296.jpg

The world as of 1375 AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-297.jpg

1350 AD (pre-turn) - We have absurd food at Logrono, and stuck as size 12. I switch it to settler.
Smolensk is raze, I refuse to capture size 20 towns. Oh well, so much for Newton.
Merida is formed to claim some of the land.
$1985 and saltpeter goes to England and we learn the secret of tanks.
A coup occurs and the president is killed.
(I) General Lee proclaims himself king.

1355 AD - The people are happy to have Lee as king, and the luxury tax is eliminated.
(I) :eek: We see our first dead Panzer.

1360 AD - Lugo is formed claiming more land in Babylon.
Lagesh is razed as cavalry and artillery is still very nasty versus rifleman.
Alicante is built to replace it.
Our newly formed tanks razed the Babylonian city of Sevastopol.

1365 AD - Cadiz is formed to continue to claim former Babylonian territory.
We finally cause Germany some pain as Frankfurt no longer exists.
Eridu joins the dead pile for Babylon.
(I) Germany and Babylon ally vs. Greece.

1370 AD - Elche is formed in former German territory.
Alcorcon is formed in for Babylonian territory.
Ellipi is razed by our cavalry.
Burgos is formed, not a great location but it locks the borders near Babylon.
I have to stare at the screw for several minutes, but I decide to risk keeping Nuremburg for Magellan's Voyage.
(I) Greece and Babylon sign a peace treaty. :(
Another German Panzer appears, but he also dies. So far we have avoided a German GA.

1375 AD - AACKK - A German Panzer successfully defends in Berlin and the German GA begins. The only good news is that they are short a few cities vs. the start of my turn. We finally raze Berlin with the last attacking tank.
Vigo if formed, and we no longer need to import ivory from England.
Our cavalry continues to rip apart Babylon, and Nineveh is no more.
Badajoz is formed near it's remains.

1380 AD - I do something I should have done round 1, and I formed an army with the leader. The odds are we will get another leader for the UN. The army wipes out 2 panzers.
Salamanca gets the order to build the military academy in a mere 4 turns.
Due to mobilization we can't build the heroic epic at the moment.
(I) England and Greece ally vs. Germany. This could get interesting. We may suffer a massive Deity RoP.
The cost of furs jumps to $62/turn.

1385 AD - Toledo is the newest city for Spain.
Ur is the latest casualty for Babylon, which ate an elite tank. :(

1390 AD - Our veteran bomber is now elite
Now that is a phrase I don't see very often.

New Madrid and New Barcelona are formed.
The city of Sippar is captured, as I don't have settlers to replace the cities on the islands.

Well that didn't take long, I get a replacement leader - Columbus - so we are still set to cover the UN.

I really hate taking a size 18 city, but with Babylon having Smith's, Pyramids and Sun Tzu I can't resist.
I order up a settler, and disband 2 units it to start shrink the city ASAP.
Our income just over 100gpt with gaining that city.
(I) - I must thank Greece for taking out the German radar tower by Hamburg.

1395 AD - Hamburg eats our tank army. :cry:
More annoying is the fact that Hamburg still stands with a conscript rifleman showing.

1400 AD - Riga is captured, and I get a source of Rubber from Germany that was hiding on an island.
Hamburg is finally razed, and it was a "spare" cavalry that got the city. I love watching an AI leader die.
New Seville is formed.
Despite a demonic guerilla that eat several cavalry, Uruk is razed.

Well I decide to capture another Babylonian city - Ashur, as it has Bach's Catherdral. The tanks did a nice job.
New Toledo is formed.


Summary - Owning the city of Babylon is TO critical. We must eliminate 100% of Babylon to eliminate any flip risk.

We have really put the hurt on Babylon - asking for Rocketry for peace is only doubtful vs. insulted. However, if we take Rocketry for peace make it Germany. Think don't risk Smiths, Pyramids and Sun Tzu.

A few cash rushes help get faster tanks / infantry. We really want to use it, as 80 bucks to rush a worker saves a turn in several cities.
I realize one thing that bites with our UU - we lose the 20 shield rush unit of explorer.

In case you are wondering why I am still building a few cavalry - they are still quite useful fighting Babylon as that 3 movement point is very valuable with those huge cultural borders. However, Logrono can switch to tank next turn as it is now over 50 shields.

I left one settler active for the next player to decide on.


LKendter
Jack merchant (currently playing)
(out Apr 20 to Apr 21)
***** NOTE: I realize Jack is absent until Monday, but I don't want to do a double skip.
Holidays are always rough of these games.

Rowain deWolf (on deck)
(out till Apr 22)

Skyfish
Ridgelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1400AD.zip

Nice! :)

BTW, how far down did you typically bomb the opponents before you attacked?

One round was enough with Babylon.
Even in large cities 1 hp or 2 hp rifleman don't hold well against cavalry. I took out size 13+ cities after one round without losing too much cavalry.

Of course, there isn't much Babylon mainland cities to take. :D

Once Babylon is dead and we demobilize, we can do a massive temple rush in all of those cities. The AI decide for us, this puppy is a domination win.


I think this one was over once we got all that yummy Ottoman territory.

Superb work, General Lee !

I got it - fortunately, within the normal parameters of 24/48.

Will play tomorrow.

A couple of turns done and we're making good progress, but I'd like a clarification - We amy want to go to war against the English and/or the Greeks soon, but we have active deals (the one with the Greeks being an embargo and 11 gpt going their way for some mysterious reason). Is it OK to provoke a war by sabotage (not repeated, but one time) or do I have to wait until the trade ends ?

My preference is for the deal to end.

The English are off limits for now. They have 50+ Mech Infantry . They are simply too strong to deal with until we have modern armor, and mech infantry defending our cities.

I think it will take until the deal with Greece ends to have enough transports to get there easily. We can nail their dinky islands quickly, but hitting the continent requires a strong landing force. I think just wrapping up everything with Babylon / Germany will keep us busy until then.

Inherited turn: Spanish tourists in England, while complaining of lousy food and lukewarm beer, also bring back tales of a new kind of device called the Computer. The newly crowned King Diego I Mercador likes the concept, and orders his spies to steal one. The spies are successful, having exercised great caution in carrying out the operation. Just in case the English ever find out about it, a number of Infantry units along the English border is upgraded to the newly available Mechanized Infantry Unit.
I wake up some tanks and destroy a Bab radio tower and kill 3 German guerillas, losing one vet tank to a 2hp guerilla. I'm not sure about the troops and the settler near Leipzig - I'm going to assume that throwaway cities are out. I reinforce Babylon to reduce its flip chance.

The English want to renew the silks deal and I agree, getting 30 gpt for them.

1405 AD (1) Our troops land next to Troy, which should fall next turn. Zariqum on the southern island falls - no casualties. Our artillery and tanks move in range of Akkad and bombers are similarly repositioned to hit the last two Bab cities on the mainland. Another tank stack advances on Leipzig. All further cavalry production is halted - we have enough to hit the last Bab cities and England already has Mech Inf.

Further investigation leads me to conclude that we need to go to war against Greece sometime soon - they're still a democracy. I'm thinking capturing their island cities and the one colony on our continent should be enough to teach them the joys of Communism.

IT The English start the SETI program.

1410 AD (2) I consider rushing the SETI program but of course, we can't under wartime mobilization.
3 tanks go elite as Akkad falls - we hold it just long enough to get a settler there to replace it with the city of Granada. Troy is also taken, and our troops there immediately embark to land next to Nippur this same turn. An artillery stack that I overlooked last turn moves into striking range of Kish, along with a good number of cavs. If all goes well, the Babs should be dead next turn.
We raze Leipzig and replace it with La Coruña, bringing dyes online. I talk to the Germans but they're still insulted for Rocketry. Guess we'll have to inflict some more pain on them :evil: A tank stack moves in range of Munich to accomplish that.

1415 AD (3) The Babs live a little longer, as a vet tank dies to a rifle at Nippur and an elite tank is retreated by another rifle - the elite 1hp tank does go on to kill another rifle though.It will now take 2 more turns to take Nippur :mad: I consider making peace for Rocketry as the resistance in Babylon is as good as over, but with all the destruction we brought upon their country, the Babs still want 3,500 gold for rocketry as part of the peace deal. A safe steal costs only 3,100 gold, so I do that instead and we are successful. We have 2 sources of aluminium. The English, on the other hand, have none (actually they do - perhaps they traded it away and a source expired ? ) !
Munich is captured and replaced by the new city of Segovia as we advance further into Germany. Our tank stacks move in range of Heidelberg and Koningsberg, we may also be able to capture Cologne next turn and make peace.

IT Babylon flips back, wiping out 5 marines and (iirc) 5 infantry at size 10.

1420 AD (4) Having garrisoned 2 tanks next to Babylon for just such a contingency, we immediately retake the city. The other tanks from the Bab/Greek island reach Nippur, so the Babs should definitely be dead next turn.

Heidelberg and Koningsberg are taken and replaced by Aranjuez and Oviedo. Oviedo is founded one tile NE of the original location of Heidelberg so that Hannover may be reached this same turn and it is duly captured. We would be able to wipe out the Germans this turn except the Greeks dropped off some cavalries to block us from getting there.

IT The Greeks take Cologne from 2 1 hp infantries (they should thank us, we bombed them down).

1425 (5) Nippur falls and the Babs are dead [party] :dance: I also decide to make peace with the Germans now as prosecuting the war does not offer any more advantages.
A good number of temples is hurried all over the place as our economy is demobilized.

I gather the tanks in Zaragoza and Córdoba in anticipation of a war with the English. The English, bizarrely, haven't built any tanks so far - only marines. They do have oil, though. Just as with aluminium, they must have either traded it away or there is a bug in the game.

At the end of the turn, I decide to bite the bullet and revolt back to republic. We'll be back at war soon, so I don't go for democracy.

IT Troy flips to the Greeks !

1430 AD (6) The move back to republic nets us an extra 380gpt -not bad. Our self-research capability is still pathetic though. I use the leader to rush the SETI program in Madrid, our highest commerce city (on reflection, I should have put it in Barcelona instead. That's what you get for interrupting your civving session :aargh: Who needs sleep anyway ?). I'll put Salamanca on a palace prebuild for the UN (it was 1 turn from building an army, so we should have enough shields built up to nab the UN).
More temples are rushed to fill up our territory. Some transports are started near Greece.

1435 AD (7) Barcelona switched to Heroic Epic, due in 2. It occurs to me that we actually do need to go to war against England to win domination, as they have a higher population than us. Building up our captured towns won't change this much, as most English cities are metropolises. For comparison, Madrid at size 20 has 200,000 more pop than Barcelona at size 19. A size 6 town is only 230,000 inhabitants.

Q How many workers does it take to clear a polluted mountain in one turn ?

A 51 (2 natives, 49 slaves) :lol:

1440 AD (8) No rushings this turn - most temples are done and we need to build up some cash for future steal attempts. I add some workers into cities near our FP (Babylonians, Ottomans and Russians only). We'll also want to have some ready to transform into radar towers.

IT The English start the UN. Given that we are 2nd in population and 1st in landmass controlled, we can be assured of being on the ballot if the English manage to build the UN before we steal fission. More ominously, the English also start the Manhattan Project.

1445 AD (9) :sleep:

IT The English destroy the Germans. We are now free to go after the Greeks as the trade embargo is obviously cancelled. I won't just yet though as we only have three transports ready to cross over yet and I doubt it will be enough.

1450 AD (10) I steal Fission from the English -the UN is due in 3. We have 2 sources of uranium.

Our units are organized as follows:
Tank stacks in Zaragoza, Iznik and Córdoba
Artillery stacks between Murcia and Barcelona
Cavalry in Murcia
Replacement settlers in Madrid.
Battleship/transport groups near the smaller Greek island.

Most of the cities on the English border are reinforced with extra Mech Infs, except N of Odessa where our cities may need to be reinforced in case the English decide to attack us.

The Enlish now have aluminium too, although I think it's just the one source, and an easily accessible one at that.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1450AD.zip)

P.S. The cities in the north that have production set to tanks are the ones that temples have been built in so you won't have to check.

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf (currently playing)
Skyfish (on deck)
Ridgelake

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1400AD.zip

=================================

IMHO England is NOT invadeable until we have modern armor. I am glad to hear all the temple rushs, and that will start locking the borders.

We should have a lot of returning ships, and I think we should go full tilt on Greece. If we get Greece, then the Celts we should be awfully close.

I did get a quick chance to look at the game.

Rowian, please change all the small cities building military to temples.

We should use all of our cash for rushed temples until we have a tech worth stealing. We need to start getting more land under control to hit domination. I know we still need to kill at least one more civ, but we may as well start the tile claiming process.

If we run our of worker tasks, let's irrigate all the usless cities to get them growing faster.

Actually, all the small cities building tanks have temples already - that was the best means for me to see in which ones I had rushed them already and which ones still needed to be done (as per my edit).

:goodjob: Jack :)

I totally agree we should prepare a nice D-Day in Greece ASAP, if we get rid of Greece we will just run over the Celts and that should be enough for territory...We should only go after the small scattered islands if we miss territory by then.

Yep - I neglected to mention the 3 or 4 transports we have waiting in (IIRC) Vigo - on the coast opposite of NW Greece anyway. We should go for it right away now though as the Greeks lack computers still (but not for long anymore, I'm afraid).

The transports near one of the Greek islands are already waiting (leftover from the conquest of the Bab isles) so we can capture those without suffering undue delay. Also, capturing those cities will drive up WW in Greece and help bring them out of democracy.

If we go after Greece, it might be a good idea to bring in the English so that they won't strike us while a good part of our forces is elsewhere.

I'm back and

a) Got it

b) reading all posts and must say great work by everybody :goodjob:



Rowain

Announcement of a delay

I had up until now just time to look at the save and make salot of temple-rushes (in ex-Germany and on Island). and one Spy at London(to see how many culture it makes) . I'll play my ten today (and if necessary ) tomorrow. Expect Report and Game on friday evening (EST) at the latest.


This Delay gives me a chance to ask what path to choose:

I checked F8 and looked at the culture-screen. I even took a screen-shot and meassured our culture and Englands. I would say England has 65k - 70k culture and makes perhaps a 1k/turn

This leaves us 3 Options:

a) Build UN and try to win the Vote (Celts are currently at war with Lizzy)

b) attack England and raze their culture-cities (Very ugly; Tanks vs Mech Inf with civil Defense and Radars is not easy)

c) Attack Greece and try to win Domination before England gets 100k (which will happen in ~30 - 40 turns)

Way c) has the aditional advantage that after Greek's termination we can reevaluate the Situation and try to take the second Vote (23 turns from now)


Rowain

ad a) The UN is due in 3, so getting it seems certain. In this case we will probably want an MPP with Greece as they and the Celts are the only ones left who can vote for us :) I don't like this option very much though.
ad b) I just played a turn in Hot3 with lots of artillery bombardmetn vs Mechs. It is horribly ineffective. Certainly we can't attack the English before MA. And if we do go to war earlier, we're going to need another 50 artillery or so.
ad c) Conquering all of Greece would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough for domination I think. For that we'd need the Celtic territory too. However, even if we capture all of Greece and Celtia, I'm still not sure we can meet the population requirement. We certainly need to jumpstart population growth.

Nevertheless, assaulting Greece seems the best option for now. If we wipe them out we're indeed sure of the Celtic vote vs England. By then we may also be able to get MA and (just a crazy thought) nukes :satan: I'm not sure we want to go nuclear though.

No matter what we want to build the UN to control the vote.

An additional question:
How is English culture vs. the other AIs?
100K won't mean much if another has 80K

@Lee: Building the UN stands without question; AI-culture: here we have the problem. As far as I can guess only Greek will be near or above the 50k.

@jack: Modern Amor would be nice but we are researching Mini (with lone scientist) at the moment and even with best Science we need 20 turns for Ecology and approximatly the same for Synth; I doubt that the Game will last for 40turns (only if England mobilize)

So researching the techs ourself is out; but who should research them? Celts still lack Flight and Tanks; Greek miss Fission and Computers; and England is communists which seldom leeds to a fast research-rate;


When i first read through the past turns I thought I might be up to an easy way simple invade Greek then go after the Celts and sail to an nice Domination victory, then I opened the Game and looked at the Culturescreen. I now believe that taking an unsatisfactional boring UN-Win is our chance to win; But if Lee and the Group do not object I would prefer to attack Greece and try for Domination even if this means we lose the Game.

Rowain

Well I am no rush for another loss with LK44 already over.

However, I think we have enough time to try to take out Greece and re-evaluate the situation after that. We will have to continue to rush temples every turn to get use closer ASAP.

I think we have at least one more UN vote after the first one. Let's see what happens before the next vote.

When does the vote happen? I have never time between votes.

Ok I'll start playing now and will go after GReek


@ Lee : the Vote occurs every 20 turns beginning with the turn the UN is finished.


Rowain

1450AD (0): Plant Spy in Athen: Greek have 80 Inf and 1 Tank; They lack Fission and Computer;

England has a lot of Culture; I spy in London and see London has 8459 and makes 69/turn; It will finish UN in 9 turns which is 6 turns to late :)

All northern Cities are switched to Aque or Cathedral;

New Salamanca and New Murcia founded; War declared on Greek; 18 gpt to England for Alliance vs Greek; Northern Transport sent home 4 tanks toward Eretria; 4 Mech + 2 Settler + 10Arti + 8 tanks enter Boat in Vigo and land next to Delphi; Bombers + 2 Jets move to Vigo (Greek have 9 Bombers); South Eastern transports land on Greek Island (Sicyon) ; Novgorod and Cologne captured;

IT: Greek Ironclads and BB sighted; Greek start UN; we are No1 in Land Area and Pop;

1455AD (1): I swap TM with England and count their Population. They have ~30,3 Mio. We have 31,8 Mio;

Lose 1 elite Tank vs a 1 hp Inf . the same Inf take out 3 hp from the next tank but finally dies; Without and further losses Delphi is razed and New Valencia founded; A Greek Worker is disbanded and a Temple is rushed there; A second Worker becomes an Airfield; 24 Artillery board our Transports;

Sicyon and Shurrupak are captured without losses; New Zaragoza and New Pamplona founded on Main-continent.

IT: Our BB wins vs Greek BB; 3 Marines move up to New Valencia;

1460AD (2): Eretria captured; Our Arti land in New Val and start with bombing the Marines (and 1 BB and IC); Disband another Greek Worker and rush Barracks in New Val;

IT: Greek land 3 Cavs near Sicyon; Celts land 6 Cavs + 2Inf near Odessa; None survive theEnglish attack;

UN complete but No Election;

1465AD(3): The three Greek Cavs are dead; After heavy Bombing Sparta is razed together with 5 Bombers ; Troy is captured too Both without losses;

It the remaining 4 Bombers hit our roads near New Val;

1470AD (4): St.Inbetween founded; Corinth gets razed;

IT: Again our Jets do nothing while the Greek Bombers bomb around New Val;

1480AD (6): Pharsalos (+the last 4 greek Bombers) razed; New Vitoria founded on hill and we have our own Incense;
Prepaare for attack on Athen; Thermo and Knossos;

WW shows up and I decide to revolt; Incidently our fur-deal with England ends too and I see no Reason to pay a lot of Money for some shabby english furs;

IT a Celt Transport kills an English BB England completes Manhatten in London and we are now a Monarchy with 776 gpt; No new tech learned;

1485AD (7): 29 Arty hit Athen and any defender has just 1 hp left; 1 tank die but Athen is razed; I found NoMoreAthen and we have now Spices too. Without losses we capture Knossos and at the cost of 1 tank we take Thermophylae; 2 IC 1 BB 2 Nuc Subs is all Greek has left as a Navy; Interestingly although they have lost half their territory they are still in Democracy;

IT: One Sub attacks us and dies;

1490AD (8): Preparations;

IT: Greek beg for Peace; They have neither Oil nor Alu; they still don’t know about Computer;

1495AD (9): I use a Cav to take out a Radar and get a Leader He rushes a Cathedral; Argos bombed to size 6 and captured; New Satander founded on Main land;

IT: Celts land again near Odessa. This time with an Army consisting of Archers; The English attack kills them off easily;

1500AD (10) The last Greek Sub is no longer as our BB hits it; We lose 1 tank but Herakleia is our; 2 die 3 retreat but Mycaenae is captured; We got another Leader here and he rushes a Lib in Mycaenae; Coastal Tiles and Rowain’s last City founded on Greek continent;


Sell Tm to England for their WM + 8 gold; and count again; Most of their Cities have grown but some have lost Population too; So England had now ~32 Mio We have 43 Mio;


During my whole Turn I irrigated anything North of the Line Almeria-Leon-Zamorra and East of Segovia; Greek will be Dead in 5-6 turns; Then we must decide if we take it to the Celts or wait for UN; Please capture Greek Cities as we need the higher Population;

I guess England is now at ~80k So we have perhaps 20 turns left; If we kill the Celts we must as soon we have enough land merge Workers into our biggest Cities. If we get 4 or 5 Size 40 Cities we have enough Pop for the Limit;

Good Luck

Rowain


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1500AD.zip)

I have rushed Aqueducts, Granaries Temples, Cathedrals and Hospitals whenever I had the Money and saw need; Please continue as we can't have too much Population


Rowain

I have lefz ~30-40 tanks and 20 Artie at our Homeland in case Lizzy gets some strange ideas. They are also useull as Flipsurpression in those cities which have a cultureoverlap with the English


Rowain

OK I got it.

Lee : Seeing we might only have 20 turns left and the turns are quite gruesome, would you mind if we only take 5 turns from now on ?

Originally posted by Skyfish
OK I got it.

Lee : Seeing we might only have 20 turns left and the turns are quite gruesome, would you mind if we only take 5 turns from now on ?


I generally dislike shortening turns.
However, in this case it would actually work better if you play enough turns to finish Greece.

We can then re-evaluate the game at that point to determine if attempting domination is viable.


==============================

LKendter
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish (currently playing)
Critical Evaluation Point
Need to decide on UN vote, or risk a loss.
Let's halt here for a bit to decide if domination is viable.

Ridgelake (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

No problem I have already played 5 turns and can finish off Greece pretty soon, I will push onwards.
However I had to refuse a UN vote in 1520 so the elections are not every 20 turns since the first "vote" was in 1460 :confused:

LK43 :

All I can say is : Wow !

Looking at all the cities I decide to change build orders to Harbours in a lot of cities as msot of them are already working sea
tiles for only 1 food. The rest is left on Cath. Maximize all MM to food.

ibt : Greece and England sign a Pece treaty, England does not want to buy one of our luxes, heck for only 30gpt I would rather see them
having no lux : they miss 5 !

1505 : Troop movements
1510 : We take Pergamon but size is back to 1. We take Rhodes at size 7, we cut the Greek Rubber.
1515 : Troop movements.
1520 : Elections come up for the UN, no thanks. We take Marathon but back down to size 2, Ridge the Great creates a Great Leader, used for an army (we have none
on the front :eek: ) English discover Space Flight.
1525 : We get another leader from Jsackie de Kooper taking Artemesium. We push even further and take Curovernum.
1530 : The bombardments are taking too many civilian casualties, we take Phocae.
1535 : The brave Celts actually land a beach head in England :eek: they get immediately slaughtered.
We take Halicarnassus and Megara, only 1 city left.
1540 : The Greeks are destroyed.

Some MM still needs to be done and teh build orders are temporary in most cities. Workers are stacked and fortified in one place. There might be some GoTo orders left, no time to verify...sorry.

Four options I would say (out of my head and without thinking too much...and it's 2am here) :
- attempt a Suicide mission to take out London and knock Englands culture out for 20 or so more turns.
- go for UN vote (IF the UK does not get 100k before that...)
- Do a massive disband of our huge army in order to increase our population, especially culture buildings in order to
expand borders wherever possible. According to me we are now doing OK on Pop but need more territory.
- Go after the Celts, the quickest way to get to Domination but no turning back taking the UN vote.

Lee, whats' your policy on Mapstat ?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1540_AD.zip

No matter what I have learned a lesson - I will never make another decision like this from work. I failed to look at the detailed statistics close enough and went with a gut feeling. I later kept thinking I failed to analyze the situation close enough.


Here is the deal:
I took a snapshot of the histograph as of 1500 AD.
We have 75 dots for culture and our total is ~19K.
England has 275 dots for culture which puts him at ~3.66 times greater then us for total of ~70K.
We are dangerously close to him hitting the dreaded 100K mark.

I will check the game again after the Skyfish save and we can make the final decision.

================

EDIT:
I will check out the Skyfish turn now. I had the thread ready to post awhile and notice he snuck in above me.

1) The Celts are furious with us. The only chance to get them to vote for us is MPP, RoP and alliance with England. There is no guarantee for getting his vote.

2) We know have 21.5K total culture. I ran the calculations again and England appears to have gained no culture and shows about the same as last time? This method is to inaccurate based on what I just saw. We need to end this one ASAP, if not sooner.

3) We are boxed into a corner at this point and can only win by Domination IMHO. We need 247 tiles and just 46 pop points. By taking a few cites from the Celts we will cross the population limit quickly. We must wake all units and attack this turn. We need to play a few mm from hell turns to get the most tiles expansion for the buck. For example, a temple in Marathon expands in all directions gaining 12 tiles. In addition, the gap close gains another 5 tiles.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-300.jpg

LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Ridgelake (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Originally posted by Skyfish
However I had to refuse a UN vote in 1520 so the elections are not every 20 turns since the first "vote" was in 1460 :confused:

This is strange. In all my experience the Votes occured in 20 turn cycles; Perhaps because it is so early?


@Lee I don't know how you come to the 42 Pop-points needed. We must have twice the English Pop. At the end of my turn we had just 4:3. The 42 Pop are only valid if we add them to our biggest city = Making a Size 65 city which borders to exploit if we don't have the food to hold it on this size.


Rowain

We must have twice the English Pop.
:confused: I have never heard of that requirement before.

The 42 pop points is from Map Stat. It has just to steer me wrong after adding the population counter.

Well we need 2/3 of the Population so you need at least twice the pop if there is one last Opponent ;)

If the Celts are still alive we need more than that;

Since it is a huge difference if I add 1 Pop to a size 6 town or to a Size 20 town I guess MapStat Simple calculates the needed Pop-points added to the biggest City;

A City of Size N gives you N*(N+1)*0.5*10000 population

(To be exact any food in the box adds some pop too)

So you can easily see that adding 42 Pop to a Size 21 City will increase your Popcount by: ~20 Mio; but making 6 Size7 towns will only give us 1.6 Mio not even 10%!!!

If we want to play it cleanwe can irrigate our Core (once the Celts are dead ) and make several Size 40 Cities which we can support. This should do the Job niceley;

Rowain

Indeed Mapstat gives a 42 or 46 point deficit towards the Pop limit : I have never heard of Mapstat being wrong, I do believe it DOES take into account your ennemy's population to give you that number.

One thing Rowain you mentionned that England had 32million pop and we had 43. Well at the end of my turn having rushed loads of acquaducts, hospitals, granaries, harbours, and prioritizing food everywhere we had almost 58million population.
That's not far from being double the English knowing most of their cities are maxed out with no room to grow.

Rushing temples is nice for border expansion but in any case it will occur in 10 turns, plus we only have cash for like 2 or 3 temples per turn and you need to wait 10 turns.
The quickest border expansion is by rushing Library one turn and University the next, however we do not have enough cash to do this.

The Celts are super weak, they can be destroyed in 4 to 5 turns by a suicide operation with tanks and no artillery in order to not lose population in the captured cities. We have much more military than needed and there is no real MM to do except to consider very seriously how much military is needed and disband to rush culture ASAP in the next 2 to 3 turns max (after that it is no use as the border expansion might occur past the finish date).

My gut feeling is that there is still 15 to 20 turns left in that game.

ps : cross post with Rowain.

Now that the Greeks are dead, we should be able to revolt back to republic/democracy for extra income. If we can really rush over the Celts that fast, WW shouldn't be a problem.

AFAIK Mapstat counts population points only, not population - this will schew any kind of number it gives for pop points needed.
In any case I'd prefer to keep it somewhat clean with the adding back into cities of workers - we can add in some native ones (if we still have those) but not all. Also, if we have enough military to take out the Celts already, we could start the Great Spanish Irrigation Project now, rather than after the Celts are dead.

No native workers left (It was like that when I took over).

What do you mean "keep it clean" ?

Originally posted by Skyfish
No native workers left (It was like that when I took over).

What do you mean "keep it clean" ?

I guess he means that we should not add more Workers then the City can feed. We could (when we have enough land area) add all our Workers in one City and create so a Size 80 or Size 90 Supercity; This would be very unclean as it uses the fact that no matter how many foods are missing you only lose 1 poppoint per turn


Rowain


PS: We had 3 natives left at the end of my turn ;)

Indeed Mapstat gives a 42 or 46 point deficit towards the Pop limit : I have never heard of Mapstat being wrong, I do believe it DOES take into account your ennemy's population to give you that number.

I don't think the population number (20 million) is what counts. I think is it you have 100 people regardless if it is 10 cities at 10, 1 city at 100, or 100 cities at 1.

==============================
LKendter (on deck)
Jack merchant
Rowain deWolf
Skyfish
Ridgelake (currently playing) --- 4 hours more for got it.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I see it and will try to play Sunday night or Monday night at the latest.

I got started on my turn last night. I am upto 1555AD. In turn 0, I declared war on the Celts and switched over to republic. A number of Celt towns have been razed/replaced and captured. Entremont is no more. I expect 3 more Celt towns to fall next turn. They should be completely eliminated in less than 10 turns.

I have also gotten a temple in every town that we own. Going to republic got our gpt up to about 1150. There is some WW, but nothing major yet. I havent increased lux taxes any.

I will post a save tonight regardless of how far I get. Each turn takes quite a while.

1540AD (0) The goal is to go all out for a domination victory. We need to take out Ireland ASAP. Need to get as many borders expanded as possible. Need to get population up as much as possible too.

MM a number of cities for max food, particularly in the captured areas.

Rush temples in Marathon, Megara, and Phocaea.

Swap to republic.

Declare war on Celts.

Wake all of our units in former Greek areas to go kill the Celts.

Capture Ephestus

1545AD (1) Capture Burdigala. We get Columbus from taking out some straglers.

Verulamium captured.

1550AD (2) Harbor rushed in Miletos, Rhodes, Ephesus, Artemisium, Curovernum, Herakleia. Thermopylae.

Columbus rushes hospital in LaCoruna.

Agedinicum razed. Another Celt city razed.

IT Verulamium flipped back to the Celts, taking most of our bombers with it.

1555AD (3) Camulodunum razed. Entremont razed.

Temple rushed in Burdigala, Halicarnassus.
Market rushed in Babylon for pop control and growth.

New Asturias founded on former Entremont location. Temple rushed with worker disband seed.
New Jaen founded on former Camuldunum site.

IT England add docking bay to their spaceship.

1560AD (4) Raze the flipped Verulamium. New Logrono founded near its old site.

Richborough razed. We get another GL from it. He starts an army.

Gergovia is razed.

Lugdunum razed

IT Pentagon completes.

1565AD (5) New Leon, New Cordoba, New Teruel, New Almeria, New Zamrona founded. Temples rushed with worker disband seed.

Ratue Conblahblah and another Celt town near Cataractonium razed.

WW kicked up. Lux tax up to 10%. There are a lot of clowns hired, but they are mostly in corrupt towns without markets and cathedrals.

IT England lands on area by Celts.

1570AD (6) New Merida and another town next to it founded and temples rushed with worker disbands.

Eboracum and Augustodurum captured. They are resisting right now.

Cataractonium razed. Ridgelake III is born of this assault. New Cadiz formed in its place.

I am ending and leaving a lot of movement left for Lee. I have not checked happiness this turn, so this will need to be done. The Celts are almost done. Two or 3 more turns and that will be it for them. Lets hope all of our temples kick in to expand borders and get us to domination.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1570admap.JPG

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1570AD.SAV)

A couple of more notes:

The english have a transport moving towards the irish area. they will likely land next turn. No idea if they have a settler with them.

We have a settler ready on the point farthest to the east under a tank. You may still want to make a settler or two more to help fill in some areas.

Good job on crushing the Celts :goodjob:

However our main problem being population I would have proceeded differently, not razing cities and minimizing use of Artillery to keep population up. Our huge army is now useless basically.
I also wonder about the advantage of disbanding workers, instead of joining them...
But of course that's my take on it and I might be worong as usual....

Are far are we on Mapstat anyone ?

Indeed Mapstat gives a 42 or 46 point deficit towards the Pop limit : I have never heard of Mapstat being wrong, I do believe it DOES take into account your ennemy's population to give you that number.
I don't think the population number (20 million) is what counts. I think is it you have 100 people regardless if it is 10 cities at 10, 1 city at 100, or 100 cities at 1.

Just wanted to come back on this comment Lee : I don't understand it :confused:
I did not make any comment about how the population is spread or if it is points or not : I have no knowledge at all about Mapstat and how it works.
I was just saying I never read somewhere that it gave a wrong result bt not taking into account your ennemy's population but really I am no expert and would never know what that 42 or 46 number actually means....
Sorry for the confusion :(

Early version of mapstat failed to check population. That is probably the bug you are talking about.

=======================

My point is size 1 city growing to size 2 has the same effect as a size 12 city growing to size 13.
I don't know how else to explain the population issue.

=======================

I got it.
I am surprised domination didn't already kick in.

Originally posted by Skyfish
However our main problem being population I would have proceeded differently, not razing cities and minimizing use of Artillery to keep population up. Our huge army is now useless basically.
I also wonder about the advantage of disbanding workers, instead of joining them...


The problem that I had with captures is flips. I did capture a size 8-10 town early and it flipped back, costing us a lot of units. I wasnt going to be burned twice.

The artillery was used only enough to wear down the defenders. I had to keep a close eye on our WW. Losing a handful of units in one battle kicked up our WW. Moving up our lux tax 10% costs us about 250gpt. Not something that I wanted to do much. So basically the artillery was a WW control issue.

As for the worker disbands, I only used Celt workers for that. I wasnt about to add them into a city until the Celts were eliminated. Adding a bunch of workers after the Celts are gone will probably be a good idea though.

@ Lee: I was also a bit surprised that domination didnt kick in. It is possible that it won't re-calculate until the end/beginning of the turn. A good amount of area was gained in my partial last turn.

[delurk]

My point is size 1 city growing to size 2 has the same effect as a size 12 city growing to size 13.
I don't know how else to explain the population issue.

I don't think that is correct Lee. IIRC from you Carthage Deity game think I remember a discussion with Sirian about population. A size 1 city contributes 1 to population. A size 2 contributes 3. 1+2. Size 3 city is worth 6, 1+2+3. So growing a size 12 city to 13 added 13 population. The size 13 city is worth
91.

Heres more info:

Orginally posted by sirian in LK38

By the way, friendly reminder: need 2/3rds of world population, as well as territory. We might yet have to invade Persia AFTER taking over all three of the other AI's. At least they don't have reams of food and size 35 cities. Still, might be a good idea to pay a little attention to population in captured Mongolia. The more people we grow there, the less likely we'll have to invade the Persian mainland to knock out their best population centers. Population is not based on people, but size. One 30 city is worth a couple of 20's and dozens of 6's. Dozens. Most of our land is recently captured and sparsely populated. Some of Persia's is, too, so that helps, but don't eye up the territory and expect us to be done the moment we're over the line.


[lurk]

Hotrod just proved my point.


The only diff is that I multiplied it with 10000 as the Game does it for Population. But we need more bigger Cities not more Size 1.

Add our Workers to our biggest City and we will soon reach Domination

Rowain

Along these lines, I was creating settlers from sub size 6 cities.

If we were to add citizens to a town, Babylon is our largest, I believe. We have 4 transports that have been shuttling units between the two continents. We can load these up with workers and move them over to Babylon. There are also more than 20 workers on our main continent right now as well.

One of the problems that we are facing with getting our population up is happiness. It might be worth considering trading with England for furs. That would be the last lux and would keep a whole lot of people happy and put to work on food production. It might be worth sending England our excess luxes, but perhaps this would allow them to put a lot of people to work as well. So maybe we should see how much they would take in gpt/saltpeter for the furs.

The other problem that we are running into for pop growth is the lack of hospitals in our conquered towns. Certainly one could be rushed with the leader. Also, we could disband a good bit of our military into hospital building.

Of course, if we really wanted to get bold, we could try to take out some of the english population. This obviously might turn ugly though. If we were to do this, it probably would be a decent idea to build some conquistadors to do some pillaging on the first turn of war. Without looking at the map, we should well be able to cut off a number of resources/lux and some key rail lines to reduce their mobility.

Adding workers to towns is the thing to try first. But if that doesnt work, then these might do the trick.

Adding Workers to oue small cities (= the freshly conquered one) will not do the trick. We must increase our big Cities no matter how many Lux-tax we must use.

Again increasing a Size 20 to Size 35 helps us twice as much as a new Size 15 town!!


Rowain

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf
Again increasing a Size 20 to Size 35 helps us twice as much as a new Size 15 town!!



Once I win the game I am going to try both increasing a large city and a small town. My understanding disagrees with the above and I want to know which one is right.

1570 AD (pre-turn) - Send the troops toward the last 3 cities.
(I) England builds SS Cockpit, but it doesn't matter.

Domination win -
London was the top town with 6 wonders.

Our final score is 6,084 - my second best hall of fame entry.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK43-1570AD-R.zip

----------------------------------

I was going to try the population test, but we were way over in population.
What stopped the win was number of tiles.

One of these days I want to prove which theory is correct: all people count equally, or weighted to large cities.

Great work, all !

What is surprising is despite the English planting a city in our first ring, we never went to war with them. Overall though, I think this game shows the importance of a relatively early FP. Also, having the Greeks and Celts behind most of the time was a real stroke of luck earning us luxes for outdated tech and brokering opportunities.

I'm now hoping that I can make the time for some turns in the open SG...

Alright!!!! I guess that it was the remaining tiles that I settled/captured on the last turn. It needed the IT to recalculate.

Jack, I agree. Getting the relatively early FP helped. It was also good that we had weak neighbors other than the English. That allowed us to get some nice territory while we were relatively weak. It also helped a lot that we had all of the resources that we needed.

To quote Jack, "Great Work, ALL!"

Lee, thank you for hosting this game. It was a lot of fun.

Edit: In looking at the histogram and the replay in the game, we really exploded as a civ around 1400AD. It was amazing how we just took off then.

Good job all !

Here is a bit more info on Population:

I built an OCC on a large map vs. 1 AI so I just built workers every 5 turns. Up to 10 So here it is.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/size2_12.JPG

I took shots at size 2, 3, 6 and 12. And you can see the huge population difference. The pop number Sums:

Size 1: 10000
Size 2: 30000
Size 3: 60000
Size 4: 100,000
Size 5: 150,000
Size 6: 210,000
Size 7: 280,000
Size 8: 360,000
Size 9: 450,000
Size 10: 550,000
Size 11: 660,000
Size 12: 780,000

Adding the food in the bin adds 1000 to the population for each stack.

Now I guess the real question is wether it is true population or just the number of citizens that has to be 2/3 to trigger domination.

[party] [dance] Victory [dance] [party]



Yeah Great Work by all :goodjob:

Thanks to Lee for the Setting :)


@ Hotrod: Yes the Question is: Are 2 Size 10 towns as good as 1 Size 20 (what Lee proposes) or is Size 20 town nearly twice as good ( 2 100 000 pop compared to 2 * 550 000 = 1 100 000) what you and I believe.


Rowain

~Rowain and Hot : the growth is algorythmic so you are right ..but how it relates to pop point and domiantion I would not know ? :confused:

I believe 1400ish was our Golden Age no ?

What sticks out in this game was the very efficient landgrab we ahd int eh beginning period --> that really was the key to winning in the end. Remember we also did a great job of MMing Madrid which was a Food heaven !

Great team of experienced palyers we had as well. Looking forward to the next one guys !