My question is, for the period 1453 to the present, what non-western or pre-western culture has done most to shape Western history and culture? Obviously present-day western culture has been shaped by many cultures, as different aspects of our culture owe more to some cultures than others. Answers may depend on what one regards as the most important aspect the modern west, and obviously this will vary from poster to poster. Therefore, determining the most important influence is no easy task, and I hope posters will do more than just say "Rome" or "Egypt".

i would say Ancient Greece for the math seceince and bulding styles from Greece

In terms of continuity and progress, it's the Saxon/Nordic legacy all the way.

Ancient Greeks I would say (philosphy, mathematics, democracy)

It is interesting how unimportant many groups are regarded. The poll is interesting for many reasons. ;)

I would say the pre-Indo-European group, whose descendants were the Aryans of North India AND the Greeks and Persians of Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. The similarities in the Greek and Hindu cultures, religion and language are TOO similar to have no common link:scan:

Originally posted by calgacus
...determining the most important influence is no easy task, and I hope posters will do more than just say "Rome" or "Egypt".
I voted for Rome but not out of laziness or ignorance. Actually, I would have liked an "all of the above" choice, but since the question is about the most important influence on Western culture, I have to say Rome. Medieval Islam comes in a very close second with Ancient Greece just behind.

The Romans established a large empire which controlled most of Europe (except Germany and Scandinavia) and kept it peaceful for several centuries. This allowed the flowering of Christianity, one of the major influences on Western Culture. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, everyone harked back to the Empire as a Golden Age and tried to reestablish it (the Holy Roman Empire, "not Holy nor Roman nor an Empire." -Voltaire). Latin was the international language (mainly because it was the official language of the Church, the only truly international organization in medeival times).

Medeival Islam was the preserver of ancient knowledge. If the Muslims hadn't kept many of the ancient Greek texts, the Renaissance people would have almost literally had to reinvent the wheel. Because of the efforts of the Muslims, Renaissance science and mathematics had the firm grounding established by the Greeks (plus the Muslims did a fair bit of science themselves, there's a good reason why algebra has an Arabic name).

The Greeks were the people who invented science and gave the basis for Western modes of thought (Aristotelian logic, etc.).

In short, we can thank a lot of people for the basis of Western civilization. However, IMNSHO, I give the Romans the tiniest edge in prominence over the others.

I voted Medieval Islam.

Yes, we owe much to Greece, Rome, all of those.

BUT, without the arabs from the 7th century to today, much of what we gained from the greeks, romans, mesopotamians, etc would have been lost to us. They preserved and enriched the knowledge the romans, greek and others had left for us - and when contact between arabs and europeans grew, we started getting that knowledge back, in addition to everything the arab developed on their own, especially in sectors related to medicine and the like.

The Celtic and Germanic peoples (or tribes) are the basis of what we call the Western World today, so I think they have to be mentioned first.

All the other cultures had more or less an influence, if I had to pick one I'd take the Arabs.

I have to admit that this is not an easy poll to answer. ;) :)

I reckon Ancient Greece. The Greeks were the actual inventors of much of what Western civliisation encompasses today. It is important that the Muslims managed to keep the records of the Greeks, but the Greeks laid the foundations and ground work.

I guess to whom the modern west really owes much is the black Africa, as in "we took a lot of stuff from you and we should pay back".
To owe respect as in "we were influenced by your culture" - Ancient Greece.

Voted Africa.

Rome, sure it started in greece, but rome spread it. Also germanic culture since they were the richest cultures in Europe in the medival and enlightment ages. The medivieval Islam because most technology was actually invented in the middle east.

I think of Western Civilization as basically Germanic with a huge influence of Roman culture. Rome in turn was greatly influenced by Greek culture and Christianity (which I interpreted as Ancient Israel for purposes of this poll.)

Other influences are more regional -- e.g. the Celtic influence on the British Isles and France, the Native American influence on America etc...

Originally posted by YNCS

Medeival Islam was the preserver of ancient knowledge. If the Muslims hadn't kept many of the ancient Greek texts, the Renaissance people would have almost literally had to reinvent the wheel. Because of the efforts of the Muslims, Renaissance science and mathematics had the firm grounding established by the Greeks (plus the Muslims did a fair bit of science themselves, there's a good reason why algebra has an Arabic name).



Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
I voted Medieval Islam.

without the arabs from the 7th century to today, much of what we gained from the greeks, romans, mesopotamians, etc would have been lost to us. They preserved and enriched the knowledge the romans, greek and others had left for us - and when contact between arabs and europeans grew, we started getting that knowledge back, in addition to everything the arab developed on their own, especially in sectors related to medicine and the like.

I'm afraid I'll have to put down a few myths.

This is aimed at YNCS rather than Oba. It was the Byzantines and not the Arabs who preserved most classical texts.(Actually, virtuallty all Latin texts and many Greek ones were preserved in the West anyway). Yes, a few came via the Arab world, but virtually all texts that weren't already possessed by the West and are currently extant were possessed and passed to the West by the Byzantine Greeks/Romans. Very little would have been losed if the Arabs didn't have them.

Medieval Islam was a productive civilization, but nothing special. If you want to diss medieval Europe and find a "better" civilization, then China is your civ, not Islam. Anyway, by the late 1400s the West was the greatest civilization in the World. It can't have been that backward then. In general, medieval Islam was not very productive if one considers its urbanism and wealth and its central position in the so-called "World system" that was destroyed by the Mongols. It was always behind the West in arms technology, ship building and architecture. The Arabs were good at medicine, but their philosophy is no better than the medieval West's. They developed mathematics quite well, but not at a faster rate than the Greeks had done. We should be careful not to overrate medieval Islam.

The byzantine preserved some of it, yes, but it's undeniable that the Arabs were primordial in getting knowledge to us. Who got the indian numbers to us? The arabs. Who got much of the greek stuff through to us? Them again. Who enriched medical knowledge and got it to us? Also them.

I completely agree that China was a behemoth compared to either of the other two.

HOWEVER, I have a problem with one notion of yours, namely what seems to be your definition of "Western World". To stuff the Byzantine Empire in there right alongside western europe is a bit of a far-fetched claim (which serves to illustrate the admitedly important germanic influence on the Western World : Byzance was little influenced by it, Western Europe was majorly influenced). The ERE was more of a leftover of the old roman world than it ever was a bastion of the future western world.

True that medieval islam should not be overrated - compared to, say, China they had lots of catching up to do - but we should not overrate the then-Western World either. They were no faster than the greeks at developing mathematics...but that's still a lot faster than western europe up to the latter medieval period - which is after Europe had acquired much of what it gained from the Islamic world.

The great difference ,IMHO, would be that while the arab had access to much of the theoretical knowledge (and developed some to add to it) early on, their "golden" position did not encourage them to develop practical applications for it : they occupied an excellent trade position, they had lot of land, etc. Whereas Europe, which was in a not-so-good position off the bat (lots of small generally enemy countries in a none too rich territory that's not an enviable trade position), was much quicker to build on what they had gained and transform it into practical applications.

Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
The byzantine preserved some of it, yes, but it's undeniable that the Arabs were primordial in getting knowledge to us. Who got the indian numbers to us? The arabs. Who got much of the greek stuff through to us? Them again. Who enriched medical knowledge and got it to us? Also them.

I completely agree that China was a behemoth compared to either of the other two.

HOWEVER, I have a problem with one notion of yours, namely what seems to be your definition of "Western World". To stuff the Byzantine Empire in there right alongside western europe is a bit of a far-fetched claim (which serves to illustrate the admitedly important germanic influence on the Western World : Byzance was little influenced by it, Western Europe was majorly influenced). The ERE was more of a leftover of the old roman world than it ever was a bastion of the future western world.

True that medieval islam should not be overrated - compared to, say, China they had lots of catching up to do - but we should not overrate the then-Western World either. They were no faster than the greeks at developing mathematics...but that's still a lot faster than western europe up to the latter medieval period - which is after Europe had acquired much of what it gained from the Islamic world.

The great difference ,IMHO, would be that while the arab had access to and developed much of the theoretical knowledge early on, their "golden" position did not encourage them to develop practical applications for it. Whereas Europe, which was in a not-so-good position off the bat, was much quicker to build on what they had gained and transform it into practical applications.


Fair points, but let's clear one thing up: I wasn't lumping Byzantium together with the West.

Also, there is very little evidence for actual transmission of Arabic knowledge to the West. One definite instance was the Almagest, an Arabic version of Ptolemy's he Mathematike Syntaxis work of undeniable importance in shaping European notions of geography. In Spain, at the courts of Roger II and Frederick II, there is interaction with the Arab world, but it is Byzantium that transmits most of the lost Greek texts. But the proportion of works actually transmitted by the Islamic world was negligible.

Avicenna, Biruni, Omar Khayyam, Moses Maimonides, etc were all great men. But the West had great learned men too before the 15th century, such as St Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, William of Ockham and Peter Abelard, although the period 700-1100 is undeniably sterile. I won't deny that Persia and the Arabic world were more civilized for the period 700 - 1100, but medieval Europe was not quite as backward as is often made out. :)

This is a good link for info on medieval books:

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/Main_Hall.html

Oh, definitely. Medieval Europe was far better off - especially in the later parts (1100/1200 onward) than most people would believe, thanks among other things to the work of some "nationalistic" historians who wanted to show all the horrors of nobility and monarchy to students et al.

No, people weren't cowering in fear when Y1K came* (most of the peasants didn't even have a clue that it *WAS* Y1K to begin with...). No, the middle ages weren'T filled to the brims with chastity belts and oubliettes. No, it was not common for people (knights, townsfolk and nobles anyway) to go around unwashed and stinking (it was common for peasants, but that's hardly a middle age thing).

*In fact, it would be amusing to note that the complete lack of historical traces of a Y1K panic "sort of" make everyone who went around saying "Look! We're mature now! We're not afraid of Y2K!" ridiculous, given that the Y2K bug panic was much, much, much more important than any panic the Y1K ever provocated.

Ancient Israel

The importance of monotheism in formulating
Western culture is often under estimated.

The way i see it you relly cant have one culture taking most of the credit, insted it 3 cultures take the prime spots, with others having a side role- Greece(Hellas) they developed a great deal of the concepts still "held sacred" so to speak in the western mind, Roma-they refined Hellenic ideals into a -generalley- more practicle form for the masses, but more importantlly they spread these ideal through conquest to western, and central Europe, and by trade and influence to northen Europe, this part is too indispensible, nad 3rd, is old Hierusaliema(jerusalem) although as a polytheist i am skepticle of the neccesity of monotheism for anything, but it(monotheism) was instrumentle in the way modern western culture developed, and so is also indispensible

edited for craptastic spelling errors...