LK44, 1.14 patch, AW suicide mission [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 07:40 AM

Inherrited Turn.

The thought occurs to me that we are going to get discovered up at white dot by somone founding a city out on that peninsula with the kinda luck I usually have (assuming thats the same landmass Carthage is on), but I also don't see any alternative but to take that chance because good city sites are at a premium for us. If black dot was really a good city site, I'd found it with the settler now, but it just wont be much good till we get out of despotisim I'm afraid. The only other immidiately decent site would seem to be pink dot so I'll send the next settler there.

I start thinking about what roll each city should have for us. The capital is clearly settler producer #1 with the game and grainery, and Sussa will be tied up with a wonder for quite some time. Arbela looks like someting of a long term fishing project, which leaves Parsagarde.....

This city could do a number of things when its boarders expand in a minute. It will be pulling in 5 surplus food with that other wheat in range, so it will grow every 4 turns, making it nice for auxilary settler production or for worker prodction.

I'm struck with the idea that clearing 5fpt/5spt it could alternate between warrior and worker every 2 turns and still keep comerce up by staying size 4-5 or 5-6 depending on lux tax level needed. Ordnarily, this is NOT something I'd want a 2nd city doing, but, what else are we going to do with it till we get access to libraries/markets/acquaducts 70 some turns from now?? And we do want to have vet warriors building soon so we can upgrade them to immortals right?? I figure this is where we want our first Rax and fairly soon, but in the mean time its suffering a whip penalty so ...

Parsagarde swaps from warrior to worker, due in 3 when it is set to grow, and Arbela swaps from worker to warrior (to go MP at Arbela). This should save us several turns of needing to run a tax, letting it grow to that point closer to the same time our wonder city does, and that 2nd guy at arbela can work a coast giving us a coin till irrigation gets through. Not much help I agree but better than nothing. MM percy off the game to the mined BG for 1 turn since the 2 food would go to waste otherwise.

[1] Percy grows - Our treasury is running dangerously low :p - Move worker, Move settler toward white dot. only bleeding 1gpt now for a few turns.

[2] Worker #2 has finished irrigating- I wrestle with wether I should start him on the great irrigate to white dot project or chop that forest at "junk city"blue dot and irrigate the plains there first. While white dot may be the better city long term, I think blue dot is actually a decent city for us till we get aquaducts and wont take nearly so long to get it up to snuff, so i go for the forest chop at blue dot. Also, that new worker due next turn at parsagarde will be available to help the great irrigation project after it improves the 2nd wheat square. Worker #1 starts mining at our wonder city.

[3] Boarders expand at Parsagarde.
Parsagarde Worker -> Barracks
MM Percy off the game tile to the lake tile for two turns as it will grow to size 4 next turn and pull the game in and we can use the 2 coins, whereas extra sheilds wont speed the settler. This wont waste food and the settler will still be done in 2
The Settler reaches White Dot.
The new worker heads over to our newly in range wheat. Time to wrestle with a decision again. Do I irrigate the wheat or mine it..... :hmm: 6fpt isn't really any better than 5fpt, but we could work a forest square then and be at 5fpt when we grow..... If aquaducts weren't so far off, this would be a no brainer to irrigate it but with it caped at size 6, and with the idea of it only needing 5spt/5fpt to do the warrior/worker shuffle, I decide to mine the wheat. It would be a simple 2 turn reversal later when we can actually grow that city or build actual projects in it.

[4] Antioch founded on white dot, starts a warrior.
Mining of the wheat square begins. Hope this odd move isnt :smoke:

[5] Percy Settler -> Settler
The settler heads for Pink dot.

[6]Arbela grows to size 2
Arbela warrior -> Worker - Since I notice the forest chop will complete on the IT and there are no shileds in the box, it really wont waste anything and we could use one more worker.
Treasury drops to 1g and -2gpt, so I back off to 80%, which will chew up the last coin, then we'll have to back off further it looks like.
Warrior heads over to MP at Parsagarde.
More game tile MMing at the capital.

[7] Arbela Worker -> Temple
Parsagared Grows to size 4 but is ok because of the just arrived warrior who fortifies there.
Treasury stabalizes at 0g and 0gpt at 80% science.

[8] Sussa grows. Shows Pyramids in 56.
Income now 1gpt at 80% science. Settler reaches Pink Dot.

[9] Atioch Warrior -> Barracks (Can't build a temple here so.....)
Worker moves to start mining the irrigated BG near Parsagarde, this will let that city get 5spt/fpt at size 4, and if we work a couple roaded grasslands can go from 6-5 and generate a couple extra coins.
It would also be possible to let it grow up to size 6 and make vet spears (later immortals) every other turn by working some of those forest tiles if we chose.
Tarsus Founded on Pink dot, starts on a warrior.

BT - Boarders expand over in Carthage..... ummmmmm, Gee, our capital's boarder is about to expand at the same time. Could that be Carthage city we are looking at? I hope so. Maybe they will build a nice wonder there for us :lol:

[10] Workers finsih irrigating and roading the plains at Arbela, and are ready to start working over to white dot. One worker mining the affore mentioned irrigated BG near Parsagarde, annother worker mining near Sussa, having previously roaded there to speed our settlers toward Purple and North Lime Dot.

Notes.

Make sure to MM the heck out of the Capital. I think I changed which tiles it used almost every turn. We could actually use a road there on one of those BG's that gets used every so often (actually, I think this is the first time that tile was needed, so we lose one coin, not a big deal, but they could start adding up)

Parsagarde is going to grow itself unhappy next turn. It still has 8-9 turns of whip unhappyness, so it wont be happy at size 5 till the end of Lee's turn. I checked, 10% lux will only cost 2 coins atm. One from Persepolis and one from Parsagarde, so that is fortunate. The bad news is this means Poly will take longer than the 18 it is showing because we will have to cut back on science :(.

The workers up at Arbela - One needs to stop and mine that irrigated fur. That ammounts to a BG square. We are losing its one shield to corruption, but the 2nd wont be lost, so its a double production thing. the other worker could move one square SW and build a road. both would complete the same turn then they could irrigate, go chop that forest and irrigate over to white dot togeather. That project could just about reach the cow by the end of Lee's turn.

We could probably use a couple more workers still, though with most of our cities stuck at size 6 for a long time, and with our industriousness, we probably dont need a huge pile of them for a while. I'd suggest drafting the rest of our workers off of Parsagarde and later Persepolis which is going to present a problem in that we may end up taxing our brains out to keep it working or arresting it's growth to prevent that. Every other city will be fine to size 5 with a temple and 2mp, or later to size 6 with 3 at monarchy.

F11 shows we are doing pretty well. First in most categories, 2nd in every other important categry except Anual income where we are 3rd (lack of rivers :().

Sussa is going to need annother MP unit within 8 turns. Not sure where the best place to make that is, Probably Parsagarde when the Rax finishes in 5.

I held off settling Black dot because I was afraid that would affect corruption level too negatively all over heck because it would be THE closest city to the capital. It really has nothing but trash squares to work at the moment anyway. It will be a good city eventually, but might do more harm than good in the short run.

GL on your 10 Lee

-Maniac

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1500BC.sav

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 09:04 AM

Nice set of turns Todd, I like the idea to improve the fishing village and mine the extra haystack.

If Parsagarde could produce 2 of the remaining settlers that will allow the capitol to start growing to it's potential alot earlier. Since the capitol is the only city that can grow beyond size 6 until we get construction it could help quite abit with our current primary goal, getting to monarchy. With Parsagarde starting to go unhappy from growth is a signal that we should use it for something that lowers it's size so we can keep our research as high as possible. I'd switch it off the rax and go settler.

The capitol could easily pop out another MP after it finishes the current settler and actually enhance it's remaining settler production.

Personally, at this point, I'd be producing workers in all the cities outside the 3 core cities (at least one round of workers anyway). I'd at least add one of those workers (from Arbela) to Susa to speed it's growth. The other 2 have obvious projects to work on.

I'd also really consider changing from Pyramids to Colossus. We have no river systems so we need trade and the old adage that "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" may apply here. I'm a strong proponent of the Pyramids but I think in this game we just have to "take' what we can get and the boost in commerce would enhance our progress to monarchy.

LKendter

Mar 31, 2003, 09:10 AM

:rolleyes: I start a couple new games, just to get feast overload :rolleyes:

I don't know if I will get to this one to Tuesday.

Playing order
GOTM#17 (deadline is today)
RBP8
LK43 (if good save)
LK44

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 10:13 AM

One more note, since we are hoping not to meet anyone until we have monarchy, our core cities could produce 3 veteran warriors per turn by then so let's not get too worried about vet units until expansion is done. If we have to, we can replace regulars with vets if we are out producing our requirements. :) Any cities that build structures that we don't need right now, will just drag our science production down.

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 10:21 AM

On the idea of switching off rax to settler..... I considered that myself, but I really thought we'd want some vet troops before someone declares war on us :lol:. It is a tough call, and either way may be better.

Actually, settler probably IS the way to go now that I think harder on it simply because in 8-9 turns it would be able to grow the size larger hapily, and 8 turns is the ammount of time it will take to grow back to size 5. This would mean we only need to run the tax 1 turn as well. I would, however, only make the ONE settler from it, not 2. I would then make the rax. We can chop one of those forests to speed the rax which should then arrive about the time it regrows to size 5. Then we can make our workers from there, alternating with vet warriors for upgrade since we have NOTHING else structural to make there other than walls or grainery for a long time, and I doubit either is a priority for that city.

We only have 5 more dots to fill in. Orange, Purple, Black, and the Lime twins. Percy will pop a settler in 1, and Parsagarde would in 2 if we switch, meaning we would only need 3 more. I'm not worried about the capital regrowing fast enough, it grows every 3 turns, so it would recover quickly when it is done with settler prod.

I also considered the warrior from the capital. I'm not sure it will really speed the settler curve much though as that city is producing them at a good (not GREAT, but good) clip of every 6 turns with proper MM, which is the exact ammount of time it takes to grow twice and replace the citizens. Making the mp unit there does seem to be the only alternative though.

As for producing workers in our 3 smaller cities..... I don't like that idea. All are 2fpt and size 1. I'd like to let them grow up and be pulling in some commerce we desperately need. Those are the places I would be considering merging workers in. I highly reccomend the vet warrior/worker shuffle from Parsagarde.

The call on to merge or not to merge in wonder city is a toughie. I really think we need the 4 workers we have now as a minimum, but, hard to say.

I also reccomend the Colossus (due in 20 if we go for it) fwiw. I think we will be extremely straped for coins, and with us stuck at size 6 for a long time with no rivers or , at least for a goodly while, harbors I'm :(. I really hope 5 or 6 of the AI arent grouped togeather on a "super continent" or this could get ugly.

-Maniac

Edit: @CB - Good point on the unneeded structures, however I dont think one barracks in Parsagarde is a major concern. The temple in Arbela will actually pay for itself by pulling in a whale, so we DO want to build that one for sure.

meldor

Mar 31, 2003, 10:30 AM

I would have to agree with the Colossus instead of the Pyramids at this point. I don't think we need the extra growth ability until after we get hospitals. Right now we may have problems with our cities growing too fast.

Our first expansion into the other land mass is going to have to have a goal of securing more resources. On the other AW games we have had, we have been able (lucky) to start with several resources within easy reach. It is not the case for this one. Couple with that the fact that we are island bound and we went for Monarchy directly, puts us in a bind for happiness. Extra commerce = extra research/bigger forces. This is the first game in a long time that I have had to worry about every piece of gold.

I would even say we might be better short term with the Great Library as well. It would allow us to trun off our research and then use the gold for other purposes.

A couple of questions for Lee. Do we have to declare war at the end of negotiations or at the end of the turn? This could be a huge deal. The second would allow us to buy contact with a second civ in hopes of pulling in more for any exclusive techs we may have before the first one can sell them around.

Also, are we allowed to build walls? If we are then we should be careful to destroy them after the city goes above size 7.

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 10:55 AM

Annother interisting tidbit is that revolting to monarchy isn't going to help our gpt at all for a long time, in fact, it could actually hurt it because we would LOSE 20gpt worth of free support with 11 cities stuck at size 6. With a centrally located capital, and no squares other than the 6 furs and 2 whales capable of generating more than 2gpt we'll be hard pressed to make up for that 14gpt diffrence in corruption savings, and even if we did, wouldn't be by much. I really think going for Poly at best was :smoke: on our part now. We should have gone for it at 40 and hoped. I'm starting to think we should have taken that jungle wasteland with a river start :rolleyes: (OK, it isnt THAT bad, but it's close. Thank god the AI sucks at naval invasions, we need EVERY advantage we can find right now). Maybe Carthage will be nice and build the GL for us in that city we see.

LKendter

Mar 31, 2003, 11:03 AM

This may have gotten lost, so a repeat of the contact rules.

I never posted the always war rules we are playing under:
During first contact you may trade provided no gpt commitments. (also resources, and luxuries).
Before ending the turn, war must be declared.

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 11:07 AM

:)

Todd I still stand by my reasoning after your thoughts simply because if focuses on actual needs right now. We would be done the expansion phase in about 14 turns from now rather than 20 turns from now. Building the temple 10 turns later won't make much difference and maybe we would cull a worker from Pars. later to make it up.

Bulking up Susa will get the wonder quicker and that gets what we really want on line quicker and safer, time wise. We need to do everything to make the run to Monarchy pay off for us, I think going full steam for it is our best chance so let's do it. Once we have monarchy our research rate on all the techs that we have passed up would be real quick if we don't meet the AI in time to make a trade.

@meldor. It was my understanding that war had to be declared by the end of the turn, LK relented on his first post on this after checking his notes [Edit: Lee beat me.]. The luxs suck, these islands with one lux are a real downer. Guess we just have to go get some. :)

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 11:17 AM

If we add the worker now, we are going to have to raise taxes..... However, IF we switch to Colosus, send a warrior over from the capital now (it doesn't need the mp yet and can wait till it builds one to replace the one sent), let the worker finish his mine (2 more turns and needed for when it grows again really) then yes, it would more than pay for itself.

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 11:17 AM

Todd, on the capitol, after producing a MP you would mm to the lake for food and commerce, rather than mm to a BG for a shield. :)

meldor

Mar 31, 2003, 12:07 PM

One thing in our favor, we stand a chance of having both iron and horse. If we miss one or the other it could get really nasty until we can get a perminant foothold on the mainland.

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 12:15 PM

Yes. Didn't say it wouldn't help, just it wouldnt produce the settlers faster :p. The lake has been used more than once by me allready, though it would get a bit more use a size larger. And yes, I did say quite a while back the capital mp was good, so far back it was in my original post that that was the best (really only) place to make it :lol:. After counting ahead a bit, you are also right on making the 2nd settler from parsagarde, THEN the rax being careful to get a properly timed forest chop in there to help.

I'll even give you the worker from pink dot simply because there are no roads or spare workers in the area, and if we merge one into wonder city, won't be for ages otherwise, but I can't see any logical reason to veto the temple up at Arbela. That will probably be our 4th strongest city for a while if we get that whale on line. It won't be any worse than up at white dot at least.

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 12:33 PM

I think everyone has been brain washed by the core ads. :lol: [just kidding]

It's almost always better to ensure that your core cites are looked after before getting your outer cites into the infrastructure loop. We know we lack sufficient workers, you have even suggested that another road by the capitol would have helped. Those roads that we need will get the settlers out faster and those cities hooked up to the core quicker. Yes, that city will be one of our better cities compared to those in the far south but that city is far enough out that it will need a courthouse to unlock it's potential and that's a ways off. Go for inner strength first and everything else will fall into place when it's time comes, if not by shields then by cash.

Serve the core! :lol:

T-hawk

Mar 31, 2003, 02:15 PM

Wow, you guys talk a lot.. :yeah:

Wonder: The Pyramids will generate us more cash in the medium-long term than the Colossus will. Why is because of the number of fishing villages we're going to have. The Pyramids get them up to size twice as fast as they would by themselves, getting us more cash in the medium term. And the Pyramids save maintenance cost on all the granaries, which is about as much commerce as the Colossus will actually generate in the long term.

What's our current time to Polytheism? We can still back off and run minimum research, without losing more than 8 or so turns. And then we'd probably make back 4-5 of those turns by running deficit research on Monarchy.

Growing the capital won't help all that much towards researching Monarchy. It can only get one extra commerce per extra citizen - and that commerce will have to go to lux tax more often than not.

I'm still in favor of getting all the settlers out as fast as we can - have Pasargadae help too - and then the Pyramids will help them all develop quite well, getting us quite a stronger empire in the medium term, as we're getting ready to go to war.

Also, Marshall - Monarchy won't hurt our economy any more than despotism. Lifting of the tile restrictions and getting out from under the steeper corruption penalty will make up for the loss of some free unit support.

I do admit that the Monarchy run is a gamble, in how much we'll be able to trade it for. It could pay off nothing at all, or it could pay off even better than having the Great Library.

It's all about the growth curve, and both Monarchy and the Pyramids set us up for future development significantly better than the other options.

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 03:07 PM

Ugh, lets not turn down research and hope we can make it up later, what do we need the cash for right now?

We are a growing civ and every time we grow and expand that research number goes down. Just cause you start research and it starts off saying something like 38 or 40 turns to complete does not mean that it will really take that long, keep pouring science beakers into the pot and we will get poly and then monarchy ASAP.

Your right about the pyramids and all it's benefits but can we be sure that some other civ won't build it by 500BC (on Emp. seems to me that this usually falls in the 800BC range so that's why I'm nervous about this). For all we know we might be still able to get the Great Library and/or the Hanging Gardens if we take Colossus. Then take the pyramids by force later maybe on a bigger continent. :) Colossus will shave a number of turns off our run to monarchy, it's alot more expensive to research than Poly so if we are having trouble with Poly then it's going to be tougher for monarchy. We do reduce the gamble going for monarchy if we really go after it as hard as we can.

It would be the pits to lose the race for the pyramids and monarchy; then where do we stand? We would be left with an FP and about 10 techs behind the AI.

T-hawk

Mar 31, 2003, 03:28 PM

Good points.

When I get a chance, which is later tonight, I'm going to try some serious math on the Monarchy beaker cost and see how much the Colossus will actually help us there. If we're going to be stuck at 40 turns to Monarchy no matter what, don't go for it; but if the Colossus will accelerate the governmental tech from 35 turns to 30, I think we should take the commerce wonder. As you point out, we can also start a second wonder and try for the Great Library.

As for the FP, remember we need 8 cities to build it, so keep those settlers pumping; Persepolis shouldn't stop doing that until we have all 11 cities founded :)

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 03:33 PM

Good, maybe make an estimate for how long it will take Susa to produce the next wonder too, based on being size 6. That city could just finish up Colossus and then do a temple and then back to wonder production.

This is why we talk, not that someone else is wrong but to trigger new ways to tackle old problems. :)

T-hawk

Mar 31, 2003, 04:20 PM

Susa's easy: thirteen shields per turn before corruption, ten or eleven after, is 36-40 turns to a 400-shield wonder. Also, if it builds the Colossus it won't need a temple, since the Colossus commerce will give it extra happiness from lux tax.

I'm not at my Civ 3 computer right now so can't look at the save and the editor to do the math that I want.

ToddMarshall

Mar 31, 2003, 07:16 PM

Yeah, we talk a lot :lol:. I think we are pretty Infamous for itor getting that way. I'd guess Sussa will be 11 Shields after sihce its in a 3 way tie for 2nd closest to the core.

I DO think it will need a temple. It will only generate 14 coins when it is all done, if it loses 2-3 to corruption, thats 11-12 which at 10% tax is still only going to kick one over to happyness. I also think that is a good site to go for annother wonder, either the GL, or at worst, the Hanging Gardens. The GL is dubious that we could get it first, but the Gardens should be in the bag if we get Monarchy first. It would be nicer to have HG in the capital so it to grow to about size 8 with no tax and everywhere else could grow to 6 with none + temple, but I'm not sure how practical that is.

Yes, longer term, when the southern fishing area comes up to snuff, we will make the loss of unit support back from lower corruptiuon. That will be slow growing though :(. My comment was that we would be hard pressed initially to make it back (we probably would just), and for a while wouldnt be getting much extra income out of it.

We are committed to the full bore poly now, I would NOT back that off as we have cut probably 8-10 turns off it, but I'm pretty sure that Monarchy should be at 40. I dobit anything we do would shave more than 4-6 turns off it if that, and we really should have some cash available when we make contact.

My thinking is if Cartage has contacts and we can buy them, the first row techs will be cheaper to buy, letting us get progressively better value from trade of our government @ monoply tech. If we can buy alphabet, writing and the wheel, it would make every other tech cept currency and construction available on first trade. If we meet him and we are broke, we end up with alphabet the wheel and iron working for monarchy.......

LKendter

Mar 31, 2003, 09:41 PM

Well I lied on the player order. I am doing this before LK43.

I have a bit of information overload with all of the conversation.
I see the key points as:
1) Is the rush for Poly worth is? Absolutely as is finishes in 18 turns, rather then 30.
2) Persepolis is a micro-management nightmare - I agree.
3) Pyramids or Colossus - I actually vote for Pyramids. Take a look at LK42 and what a nightmare Carthage was with the growth factor of the Pyramids. The denial factor is worth considering and why I prefer the Pyramids. Susa has to hit size 12 for the Colossus to generate more cash then the Pyramids save us with 11 granaries.
4) Pasargadae is suffering from whip penalty, and it may be easier to switch to settler - I agree. It is due in 2 turns.
5) Add a worker to Susa to speed growth - in debate mode, as it gains an unimproved tile.
6) Avoid black dot to last, as it may corrupt Susa - I agree.

1500 BC (pre-turn) - No changes.
(I) We are light on workers, so Persepolis orders a worker up.

1475 BC - It seems weird to irrigate, to go back to mine. However, I do the plan for Arbela to get another shield now. Luxuries are back up for a turn.

1450 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1425 BC (I) - Back to settler production in Persepolis.

1400 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1375 BC - Gordium is built on the purple dot spot.

1350 BC - There are enough developed tiles and a 2nd mp, so I add the worker to Susa. It cuts 12 turns from the Pyramids ETA.

1325 BC - Wahoo, forest chop by Arbela reveals a bonus grassland tile.
Bactra is formed claiming the orange dot.
(I) The forbidden palace is offered.

1300 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1275 BC (I) - The first wonder completes in Salamanca, the Oracle. The Iroquois seem to build that one a lot. That was the biggest city we knew of, so we still have a wonder chance.

1250 BC - The reporters take a day off.

Summary - Well I hope T-Hawk as the answers on Monarchy at 40 turns, as Polytheism is just about complete.

Pasargadae has a barracks and can start produce vet warriors every two turns. At some point it should switch to a few spearman.

Cartouche Bee makes the final decision on the wonder, as we can get Colossus in 6 turns, or Pyramids in < 29 turns (after growth).

LKendter
Cartouche Bee (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)
Meldor
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1250BC.zip

T-hawk

Mar 31, 2003, 10:23 PM

I'll have the Monarchy numbers in about two hours, if Cartouche can wait that long (he's also got RBP8 to play :) )

Cartouche Bee

Mar 31, 2003, 11:28 PM

I got it but I'll wait for the analysis before building a wonder.

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 12:30 AM

I'm going to reverse my earlier comment about Monarchy at 40, I did some analasys and think we should just go for it at max if I can count straight, especially if we get the Colossus. I'm pretty sure T-Hawk's analasys will confirm that. Unless it looks hands down that the Pyramids is the better way to go, I'd favor the colossus and a run at a 2nd wonder. The tech pace probably isn't going tht fast. No one has Lit yet (still #1 at 0% from F11).

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 12:31 AM

OK, downloading the save to start some math now.

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 12:58 AM

OK. In the editor, Monarchy's cost is 24. That times the map size factor of 240/10, times the Emperor cost factor of 1.25, equals 720 beakers.

As a sanity check (to make sure I did that right) the cost of The Wheel is 4. Right now in the current game, if we were to set research to 30%, 7 beakers/turn, The Wheel would take us 18 turns; a total of 126 beakers or less. Monarchy costs 6 times as much as Wheel, so the 720 figure for Monarchy seems correct.

To get Monarchy in less than 40 turns, we would need to AVERAGE at least 720/40 = 18 beakers per turn. Our maximum sustainable science rate right now is 15, which the Colossus would increase to 18. Wow, is that close.

Researching Monarchy at max without the Colossus is not an option, at least.

1. Run Monarchy at the minimum, getting us the tech in 40 turns but also getting about 500 gold in the treasury. Either wonder can be built.

2. Run Monarchy at maximum. This would require the Colossus, after which we can go for another wonder. Monarchy would take us about 35 turns, considering that the Colossus still has 6-7 turns before it completes.

Also, by the way, I notice that the border we can see across land has expanded. That means we've got no more than 45 turns before contact is made. If we do not get Monarchy before making that contact, we lose out on a lot of trade potential.

Egads this is close. I can't make the call yet; I'll keep thinking about it after submitting this post.

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 01:20 AM

That boarder expanded the same turn as our capital's did, making me wonder if that isn't capltal Carthage city. Maybe they'll build us a wonder with their industriouness. We can dream can't we?

Edit: didn't want to make annother post for this. Is anyone else getting that "Dieity Space Race" kinda feel atm? :lol:

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 01:20 AM

I grabbed the 1500 BC save (beginning of Lee's turn) to take a look at that. That border had already expanded at that time, meaning we have no more than 35 turns before contact is made (unless that city is their capital and is currently at the 100-culture level.) Given that, we cannot reach Monarchy early enough to trade it to that civ. (Especially if they come by via galley sooner.)

Also, our max sustainable beaker production in 1500 BC was 14, and in 1250 BC is 15. Beaker production doesn't ramp up as quickly as one might think. It is NOT linearly related to population, thanks to the bites of corruption and lux tax.

So I think I'm in favor of going for Monarchy at the minimum to build up gold in the treasury for trading when we can. And in turn, I think I favor the Pyramids over the Colossus in Susa. The only argument in the Colossus' favor is that we may be able to build the Great Library after it. I'm sure Susa will not have time to build the Pyramids and then the GL.

But there is another way to try for the GL, and it's even faster than having Susa build the Colossus first: swap Pasargadae to a Palace prebuild right now. (That city can work a bunch of forests and also pull 10-11 shields.)

If I were soloing the game, I think that's what I'd do - Pyramids in Susa, Palace-for-GL in Pasargadae (we win this if there's no Pyramids-to-GL cascade), and Monarchy at minimum. It is very much up for debate, though.

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 01:27 AM

Good information there Todd. Actually, in the 1500 BC save, the enemy city has expanded borders while Persepolis hasn't. But Persepolis was founded in 3950 BC, a turn later, and it expanded at the end of 1500 BC.

Consider that Carthage pays full price for temples, does not start with Ceremonial Burial, and does not prioritize culture. Also, if it is not their capital, the city would be founded one tile away from the coast, which the AI generally doesn't do. All the evidence points to the visible city being Carthage's capital.

Given that, the city already has the 100-culture level, and thus won't expand again for a long time. So assuming they don't get a galley (they are commercial, starting with Alphabet towards Map Making), we probably DO have enough time to research Monarchy at max (with the Colossus) before contact is made.

Help, I'm thinking and I can't shut up! :crazyeye:

I would still advocate minimum science on Monarchy. That still lets us take the more useful wonder (the Pyramids), and gives us a guaranteed few hundred cash to buy techs when contact is made, instead of an all-or-nothing risk on Monarchy. Also, we don't lose all our trade bait if a galley comes by and makes contact sooner. Minimum Monarchy still gets us the benefits of getting into the government soon (it's only a 5-8 turn difference between min and max) and the attendant Golden Age benefit. Finally, we COULD get the best of both worlds: several hundred cash AND the ability to trade Monarchy, if the contact is delayed long enough.

In short, there's a 5-8 turn window that if the contact comes then, we should have researched Monarchy at max. However, the contact is more likely to come before or after that window, in which case we will want to have done Monarchy at minimum.

Cartouche, got all that? :cool: :crazyeye:

Cartouche Bee

Apr 01, 2003, 09:08 AM

I decide to pursue science with as much vigor as I can apply, while also trying to overcome the shortage of workers required to keep up developments. I decide to rescind all orders building barracks. Antioch is switched to temple even after the borders expand they only hit water, I mm it to a tax man to pay for the barracks in Pars, it increases the time to temple to 39 turns. I mm Arbela to a taxman to pay for the granary in the capitol, the only loss is food cause commerce and shields were corrupt. This allows me to raise the science rate to 70% with Poly in 6. Bactra is so corrupt that I switch it to work ocean and gain a science beaker. Switch it from warrior to walls. Tarsus and Gordium (build on wrong square, 2 tiles from Susa?)are switched to workers. I move the warrior out of Gordium to Susa. A worker from Susa back to the capitol.

Colossus built 1125. Any tax men are now changed to scientists.
Sidon founded 1125. Produces wealth and a scientist.
Tyre founded 1050. Starts a temple with assist from logging.

Monarchy is due in 21 turns.

I would say that barracks at the capitol and Pars can provide all the vet units that we can support. Ideally we would construct Sun Tzu to provide barracks in all the other cities but I leave those decisions to the next ruler. Now that we have passed the corner and are well on the way to Monarchy all the unorthodox situations should be reviewed to serve the next ruler.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1000BC.SAV

LKendter

Apr 01, 2003, 09:29 AM

Ouch - it looks like I misread the dot map :(

Let's hope the Colossus helps enough with revenue.

How quickly to we start a pre-build for the next wonder? Having done AW several times before, I know that the Great Library is a major plus. My vote is a palace pre-build as soon as viable in our wonder town.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 01, 2003, 09:37 AM

In 2 turns it builds the temple and after that it is clear to pursue a wonder. yes, having the palace/FP to fall back onto in a cascade keeps it a safe gamble.

[Edit:] Skipping the temple will save about 7 towards the next wonder, going for the Great Library hard may be worth it. I suggest dropping that temple build and going for it. In just over 30 turns we have another wonder.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 01, 2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by T-hawk

I would still advocate minimum science on Monarchy. That still lets us take the more useful wonder (the Pyramids), and gives us a guaranteed few hundred cash to buy techs when contact is made, instead of an all-or-nothing risk on Monarchy. Also, we don't lose all our trade bait if a galley comes by and makes contact sooner. Minimum Monarchy still gets us the benefits of getting into the government soon (it's only a 5-8 turn difference between min and max) and the attendant Golden Age benefit. Finally, we COULD get the best of both worlds: several hundred cash AND the ability to trade Monarchy, if the contact is delayed long enough.

In short, there's a 5-8 turn window that if the contact comes then, we should have researched Monarchy at max. However, the contact is more likely to come before or after that window, in which case we will want to have done Monarchy at minimum.

Cartouche, got all that? :cool: :crazyeye:

T-Hawk I played this after sleeping on it and I had not read this part of the post before playing.

Those are good points and I like the idea of being able to purchase cheap low rated techs and cash will allow for more flexible trading. Maybe we will get monarchy before we meet the others and still have some cash built up.

When we started the drive to Monarchy we decided to beeline to get the advantage of getting to our preferred government type, switching ASAP and being able to trade through to the end of ancient times off those techs on first contact. I hope it still works out that way.

If it turns out that we could have got the pyramids, I hope this move on my part does not lose the game for us. Hopefully the Great Library or Hanging Gardens will make up a bit for not getting the pyramids.

meldor

Apr 01, 2003, 11:48 AM

One thing that I find slightly off in the analysis is the fact that it is that the monetary difference between the two options assumed the cost savings of building a granary in every city. Without the pyramids, it is unlikely that we will build one in every city. Those fishing villages are fine but the addition of a granary won't make them that much more viable.

I like the Colossus mostly for the fact that I think it will get us more cash over time. In all of the AW games I have played, having the cash to rush buy one or two critical units can make a huge differnce.

Second, it seems we are more limited (with our push to monarchy) in just how much population we can get and it still be productive, lessening the benefits of the Pyramids. After we get the tech trades (hopefully) and the infrastructure to help. I think we will find this was the best choice.

I think that with our current position that control of luses will be more critical than which wonders we took. Hopefully Carthage will have some for us.

BTW, has anyone settled the pennisula to the north? I wonder if we could aim to get a settler and defense there asap. If no one has settled ther by now, maybe it isn't part of the main landmass and is a small island.

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 02:55 PM

@Meldor - Nope, hasn't been settled, and you are probably right about it being an island because of that. I see that CB went full bore on Monarchy and that we can get it several turns faster than 40 would have gotten it so the Colossus may have been the best move anyway. If it turns out we could have gotten the Pyramids or library....... well, oh well. Being that this is AW and we have terrible happyness issues, the Wall and Gardens will also be of great benifit, and I'd bet we can secure one of those at worst.

I agree with your analasys on the fact we wouldn't build a grainery in some of those cities anyway, at least not in the tundra ones and with cities maxing out, we can allways skim off workrs and merge them. There isn't much point in ducts right now. We'd be chewing up most of our increased revenue to raise the lux rate. Once that city gets improvements (library/bank/uni/market) we may find this is a good thing, esp if we can manage to stack Newton's and CoP there.

It is debatable.
Pyramids = Great IF we didn't get beat to them, and the best option many turns down the road.
Library = Awsome IF we can get the tech in time to switch to it and survive a possible Pyramids cascade.
Colossus = Immdiate benifits, definatley buildable, and 2nd wonder (library/gardens/or even the wall (this is AW so even this wonder has value) may be possible. It is also a worthless wonder to capture in most cases as its going to be in a highly corrupt city most likely.

I would lay good odds that that city over there is Carthage, and because it is an industrius civ, id lay good odds on it building the pyramids or library for us. I'd say 50/50 it gets one of them. If it builds either, we get big benifits from capture. Garineries in all cities on THAT continent.... hopefully NOT annother island civ...., or free techs. Yeah, that is a wildly speculative gamble, but welcome to LK44 - this whole game is like a cross between a dieity space race and a trip to Vegas :lol:

Deciding which wonder is better is like picking which pony to play at the track. We just don't really know till the race is over. (That being said, I'm glad we took take the colossus to place :) )

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 02:59 PM

Actually, I must have vastly underrated our future beaker-producing ability. We're producing 27 beakers now - almost double as when I did my analysis. Not sure where all that came from, but given that, Monarchy at max is the way to go. :goodjob:

meldor: Those fishing villages will get granaries if I'm in the game :D Growth every 20 turns without, or 10 turns with; a no-brainer in my book.

I got it, will fix these issues:

Swap Susa to a wonder now, absolutely. Lux tax isn't going to drop below 20% for a while, and Susa's happy enough right there at size 6. No temple needed.

And no specialists! Never slow city growth in the early game. Get Arbela and Antioch back to work, and get worker labor to them.

Since we passed on the Pyramids, all our decent cities will need to build granaries. Pasargadae can crank out workers nicely once it gets one, and Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, Susa will need them for growth. And Antioch is building the temple that we told it not to build because we want to delay the contact. Granary instead.

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the :smoke: :)

Cartouche Bee

Apr 01, 2003, 03:22 PM

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the :smoke: :)

:) Going for that spearman in 3 instead of 4, I'm usually the food Nazi but these variant rules are getting me to go down other roads. :)

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 04:04 PM

Inherited turn:

Who sold the barracks in Persepolis? The city has nothing else to build besides military (it doesn't need a temple for a while), and we'll want three MP for all our cities in Monarchy, and as Lee said they may as well be veterans. City swapped back to a barracks.

Pasargadae, Arbela, Antioch, Tyre, Tarsus, Gordium, Bactra swapped to granaries. Pasargade needs it to crank workers, and the others need it to grow.

Susa swapped to a Palace wonder prebuild.

All specialists fired. Raises Monarchy from 21 turns to 22. Pasargadae assigned to work the game tile for this turn.

Cartouche, I need to have a talk with you about worker management. "What Can Wait Must Wait." "Improve Good Tiles Immediately." Why's a worker mining a hill at Pasargadae? The city's got a ton of forests that produce just as many shields as a hill under despotism. It will help absolutely nothing until we get into Monarchy, 30 turns from now. Getting Antioch and Tyre off the ground here in despotism is more important. And there's a grassland square at Arbela OUTSIDE OUR BORDERS that got improved before one INSIDE our borders.

And there's a worker clearing a forest at Tarsus, when there's an unimproved grassland sitting right next to the city. The worker clearing the northern furs forest is correct, since we need to irrigate through that square to Antioch, although it should've been assisted by the other worker at Pasargadae.

========

Not much to report turn-by-turn, just micromanaging the cities.

I cleared Gordium's forest-game and got a line of irrigation to the tile so Gordium can grow at a decent rate. Do not mine over these tiles; they aren't needed in despotism (Persepolis is already at 10 shields/turn and more doesn't help much), and Persepolis and Tarsus at least will make use of the 3-food tiles in Monarchy.

Persepolis reached size 6 and 10 shields/turn. The pattern this city should follow is warrior, warrior, worker, producing the worker just on the turn of growth to size 7. (Or one spear or archer instead of the two warriors if you like.)

Irrigation reached Tyre and Antioch.

Pasargadae built a granary and can pump workers every two turns - I recommend having it continue to do that.

Susa's 400-shield Palace will complete in 23 turns; let's hope that we can actually get contact and Literature by then :)

Monarchy is now due in 13 turns, and this is SUSTAINABLE, unlike when Cartouche passed to me with it due in 21 but running -4 gold/turn. :) (Running that deficit then was good, though.)

========

A map for the onlookers:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750bc.jpg

Don't move Gordium; yeah, it's on the wrong site, but all it loses is a bunch of water that it probably wouldn't work until hospitals anyway.

Sardis and Sidon are on granaries; if we get Map Making before those complete, switch them to harbors. I would also recommend doing a switch-whip-switch for exactly 20 shields when each city hits size 2 (10 turns in Sidon, 14 in Sardis.) The reason is that the cities can't pull ANY food surplus at size 2, but they can at size 1, so we may as well turn the food into shields and have the city continue to pull food surplus.

Antioch probably wants to start a temple after this granary; it will then expand to have a tile on the other continent visible and probably make contact shortly after we get into Monarchy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750bc.zip

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 04:10 PM

By the way, I peeked at F11 after posting that.

Despite Cartouche's best efforts, we are #1 in the world in population, GNP, manufactured goods, family size, and productivity!! :goodjob: :goodjob: [party] Although #5 in Land Area, and dead last in Military Service.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 01, 2003, 04:24 PM

The capitol never had a barracks as far as I know it was settler factory. It now needs a temple in 3 turns, no?

If I hadn't taken the action I did, you would have inherited a turn with 40 gold in the bank and monarchy due in 37. The only reason that we work the squares or build different items is due to different objectives. There is frequently no right or wrong, it's the changing of directions that mess the outcome. Yes, I passed the game losing 4 gold per turn but the cities were growing, increasing income. Sustaining that pattern would have probably yielded monarchy in less than 10 at this point but 4 turns longer at this point probably won't make much difference if, and it's a big if without that temple to open the sights, we can make contact. The granaries in cities producing a single food surplus at this point seems rather a poor move to invest 60 shields on but should pay off by game end.

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 04:36 PM

I thought Persepolis had a barracks when I peeked at the saves. My bad if it didn't.

No, it does not need a temple. It can stay at size 6 for some time and crank out military and workers for us. Which would you rather have right now: four police and two workers, or one temple? Easy choice for me :) And also, once we get into Monarchy the city can use a third police unit, so it does not need a temple until it hits size 8.

Losing money was the right thing when we had money, as I thought I did mention. I was just pointing out that we were no longer losing money.

And I said that the granaries in the fishing villages are probably harbor placeholders. If we don't get Map Making in time to change them; well, then they've got granaries and will grow twice as fast when they do get around to the harbors.

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 05:46 PM

You know..... I disagree with the assessment on not building the Temple in wonder city. If it and the Capital had built temples, especially since almost everywhere else not completely growth challenged has or is, 20% lux would be un-necesary, simply 10% would be sufficient.

I realize the temple costs 1g maintenence so we are paying that g for happyness anyway, but the temple targets it to where it is needed. Also note, especially since we are building them all over elsewhere anyway and paying that g in some places that do NOT need it yet (though though some of this is for tile grabing, especially the Whales). Rather than having 20% pull one off possibly several cities at size 3 or 4 that dont need the happy tax and allready have or are going to soon have temples, I think those temples and 10% lux tax were a good long term investment.

I will capitulate to all the graineries except that one at the southernmost tip. I suspect that it is going to be extremely corrupt even with monarchy, and will likely need a grainery, harbor, court, and aquaduct, and maybe WLTKD to be worth much ever. I would have just built MP/workers out of it every 10 turns at least till we got a look at how monarchy affected our corruption level. Hopefully, I'm wrong on this guess.

Edit: Also at monarchy with 3MP we are likely to be running 10% everywhere to apease TWO cities that are just a temple short of us needing no tax.

LKendter

Apr 01, 2003, 05:46 PM

Summary - This was fast turn around for the round. I just played yesterday, and could be on-deck by the end of the night.

Once some of these granaries are done, we really need to get troops going. This is AW, and I would hate to see an AI landing and watch a city get toasted. At some point we should start building some spearman to leave as permanent defense. The real question is when will we be strong enough to occupy some mountains to prevent annoying AI landings?

LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor (currently playing)
ToddMarshall (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 06:04 PM

Soon enough, we'll have other larger cities that will need 20% lux anyway until they get a full complement of police and can build their own temples: Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, and Gordium. 10% lux only would have worked because we were so slow in getting those cities developed in the first place.

The bigger issue in Susa was speed. If building the temple ended up costing us the Great Library, we'd all be gnashing our teeth and rending our garments. :)

Shore blockade - good idea. I think we should position warriors on mountains, maybe hills too, when we start making contacts.

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 06:27 PM

On the Library, true enough, that is a concern. Does anyone have Lit yet? If we aren't first in Lit rate someone has it and is going to cascade from the Pyramids, which would suck, but fwiw, the gardens and GW will still be worth getting.

MP, not too worried, we are cranking warriors rather quicklynow yes? But until we get ducts built, 10% was enough everywhere.

One born smiley, one lux smiley, 2mp smiley, one temple smiley, and one tax smiley = 6 now, and 0% or 7 at monarchy with the additional mp. I realize that in the long run after ducts we will need 20-30%, but thats a ways off yet.

meldor

Apr 01, 2003, 08:11 PM

I stayed the coarse. I stopped building workers when they started eating us out of house and gpt. I switch to building just spears in Persy and Pas. Their are two taxmen keeping a positive gpt for us, one in Persy and one in Gordium.

The Carthagians built the Pyramids for us in 730 BC across the water in Carthage. In 710 BC the Aztecs completed the Great Lighthouse in Tenochtitlan. Looking at F11, it looks like the Oracle is already built as well. I hope they didn't cascade beyond the Lighthouse.

Monarcy is due in 4 and we have a big 1gpt cash flow with 6g in the treasury. We should spend this all at once though.

The temple at Antioch is 13 turns away, but could be whipped if needed.

I was getting spears into every city and then maybe we should start disbanded those regular warriors in favor of spears. Maybe even build a few archers.

I moved workers to the south to road the forested and furred tundra to generate some more income.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-550bc.zip)

ToddMarshall

Apr 01, 2003, 08:18 PM

I got it. I'll play in a little bit.

T-hawk

Apr 01, 2003, 09:57 PM

Don't disband anything. Any spare unit we've got can pull police duty - we want 3/city total for all that - or do mountain invasion protection duty.

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 02:25 AM

I never disband anything other than for occasional use in putting a shield in the box for rushing things in the industrial age, so no worries there. In case you are wondering, yes, I am playing, and have been for some time. The very fact I've been playing "for some time" should send up a warning flare that something has happened :p. Yes, we have contact. The game is afoot.

I may not finish this tonite as I am tired, but will finish it by tomorrow night. I will, however vindicate CB's decision to build the Colossus and max research Monarchy, as we got contact on the SAME turn we got Monarchy.

LKendter

Apr 02, 2003, 06:42 AM

Well I hope not TOO much contact. ;)

To much contact will be brutal.

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by T-hawk ....meldor: Those fishing villages will get granaries if I'm in the game :D Growth every 20 turns without, or 10 turns with; a no-brainer in my book.[/B]Not so fast....in this game, limited as we are by luxes, it would have been better, IMO, to not pout the granaries in and have gone with building workers in Persy and Pas and joining them into the cities without the granaries. I left the granaries going, as to not rock the boat, but I think a lot of them are a waste. The cities with the great food production could supply the citizenry for those with less food and mroe corruption. Normally, you would only do this on a small scale, but limited as we are the granaries cost us more money thatn the potential benefits at this point in the game. As you are so fond of quoting "What can wait, should wait". We could have shaved off several turns of research on monarchy if we hadn't been paying for those granaries. I had to stop building workers because we couldn't afford them. I could have just as easily been shifting the extra pop to cities that could use it, and not bothered with the granaries. In fact, we should probably do this anyway, until we get to the point that we can afford to let the cities grow a lot bigger. To go much farther, we need markets and more lux captured. Until then use Persy and Pas as our granaries and let the others get ready to help us out faster.

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 08:53 AM

OMG, the situation is much worse than what I'd hoped. We have about 1/3 less warriors than I expected, and why have we been neglecting Black Dot? That is the closest city to the capital. That city should be size 4 or 5 and have a temple and a rax by now. Oh, nevend, twas founded rather late. *sigh*

Persepolis is working an unroaded forest when a mined/roaded BG is available.....why?

Parsagarde is working an unroaded forest, doesnt need the one shiled (2nd lost to corruption), actually doesn't need EITHER shield since 7spt = 8spt for a 20 shield project, when 2 roaded tiles are available.... Commerce, we NEED commerce. MM the Parsagarde Sussa area to get the temple in 1 turn instead of 2 when it grows and pulls in that mined grass, while doing the same for the spear and still only working roaded tiles.

Not sure what we are doing at antioch. There is a plains there needing irrigation, yet 2 workers want to improve a 2nd hill first.

Tarsus needs 2 of its tiles mined, yet we are going to road a forest for more corrupt Gordium first.... well, no, at least one of the workers isn't :p

Actually Lee's misreading the dotmap for Gordium doesn't bother me, since in the short term this is a much better site for it than the original. Speaking of Gordium, it is running a tax man when it needs no specialist..... presumably a one turn get a coin thing since its in the +4 food situation?

Horrifically, we have 3 MP units NOWHERE, and some places don't even have 2, so yeah, 20% lux tax looks inevitable. If that Parsagarde Spear didn't have 8 shields in the box , it would be a warrior, but too much waste to swap now.

I play arround with the slider and there seems to be no way to get Monarchy in 2, since even losing 8gpt vs +1 gpt is still 3 turns. Looks like we'll get a nice "income" on the final turn of research.

OK, time to click next turn...... no, first time to pop rush 18 shields on that grainery in Sidon via Barracks.

[1} Persepolis Spear _> Warrior We NEED about 5 of these for MP/possible upgrade (well, thats what I thought at the time).
Arbela Temple _> Barracks
Tarsus Grainery _> Barracks
I decide this is enough rax going up for now, and swap Tyre to Temple to grab that Whale. I'm sure I'm going to hear screams of Weed, but I don't care. The extra commerce from the whale will pay for the Temple, and it can build the Rax next.

[2] Persepolis Warrior _> Spear
Parsagarde Spear _> Worker (I want to merge this guy into Tyre)
Monarchy due in 1, so I slide back to get the most i can..... which turns out to be 10 coins...... after seting up to survive the Anarchy w/o riots. Arbela is a problem because it will starve or riot....... looks like its going to lose some pop, what can i do?

[3] Monarchy comes in, and I revolt immediately. We draw a kind 4 turn Anarchy, meaning Arbela will NOT starve to the point of pop loss :)
Arbela Riots, but we cant help that, its riot or starve to death.
I send one of the workers over from That mine up by White Dot to irrigate that plains that annoyingly hasn't been irrigated yet and....... ummmmmmm.

WE HAVE CONTACT! OMFG, ON THE VERY TURN WE GET MONARCHY!!!

Carthage has a galley next to their capital (we think). Hannibal isnt in F4 yet, but there is NO point in delaying contact that I can see now that we have Monarchy, and He can see my worker next turn anyway.

Hannibal does NOT have Poly yet :). He DOES have something rather sweet though. Contact with India, Mongollia, and Azteca :)

The best I can wrangle out of him is
Polytheisim for Contact with Mongolia, TM, and all his 5 gold...... I hope we don't regret only having 16 gold to start these deals.

To Mongolia I trade Polytheisim for contact with Azteca and 7 gold.

To Azteca I trade Polytheisim for Contact with India and 10g

I want to buy Alphabit if at all possible but... GRRRRR not enough cash, so I do something crazy. Sorry Lee, but in this case, I can not see the value in not trading maps. Carthage is going to do that very soon anyway and show them a this way here sign to us, and once we get some kind of navy going everyone but the Aztecs (Lighthouse) has only one narrow crossing where they can pass thorugh, so we can kind of blockade that.

WM to Azteca for 29g

WM and 41g to India for Alphabet

TM to Mongolia for his last 7 gold (actually needed)

Polythieisim and 30g to India for The Wheel and Writing. Now we should be able to see who has every Ancient tech on the tree other than Currency, Construction, and Republic

Now the biggie :p Monarchy to India for Iron Working, HBR, CoL, Philosophy, Map Making, Mathematics, WM and 87 gold, leaving him 13 and us 90 (yes, we were down to 3 g). And thats all folks. I try to see if The Aztecs have an inflated WM with their Lighthouse, but nope, they only want 1g;.

No one has Currency or Construction, and only India had Math, so we are actually ahead, and most of these guys will now have to get Monarchy.

None of the AI has a trade route with anyone else, and only India even has a Harbor yet, so they can't trade lux :). They appear to each have only one kind hooked up, though a couple of them have a 2nd variety deep in jungle land they could get arround to someday.

The wonder screen is a beautiful sight. NO ONE (that we know of anyway) Is building ANY wonder since no one has a wonder tech.. Yep, thats right, NO ONE has Lit.

Furthermore, unless things are VERY diffrent over on the other Continent, the GL is in the Bag if we can research Lit before our Palace prebuild completes that is (we might actually have to slow the damn thing depending on how long it is to get Lit). I think we should go for ANNOTHER wonder now, perhaps the Hanging Gardens in the Capital (this SURE would help since that is our ONE growth city) or maybe we should build the Great Wall in Parsagarde with a palace prebuild???. I'm SURE we'd get that wonder if the other continent isn't ahead. If we can get the library and either of the other wonders, we have ourselves a nice little GA. What about Immortals you say? Umm, read on.

Only India has horses hooked up, and they do have iron sources they could hook up whenever they feel the urge. The Aztecs and And Mongols have no Horses I can find anywhere, and Carthge appears to have NEITHER Iron NOR Horses anywhere in their territory. There is one visable non owned Horse source on an island that India owns half of and is much closer to than any other civ. All this sounds fantastic doesn't it?

Well, guess what? In what has to be the WORST freeking distribution of Iron and Horses I have EVER seen on anything but a tiny 20% land pellago map, WE HAVE NEITHER IRON NOR HORSES EITHER. :argh:.

Btw Meldor, you were right, that Peninsula is NOT the same landmass as Carthage and the other Civs are on and I will bet you oney that settler is right now headed up there to claim a resource.

Oh, and we declare war. :lol: (ALMOST forgot to do this heh)

BT - An Indian galley sails into view behind the Carthage one. Presumably they plan to lose the race for whatever is on that island over there, or at least for the premium site.

[4] Worker stuff, Un Riot Arbela for a turn so we dont lose improvments. ZZZZZZZZ

[5]ACK. I missed the fact that Sardis was about to riot. Oh well, If your going to miss a riot, Anarchy is the time to do it :(. Actually, No, it needs to riot or starve, and it has no buildings, so it riots.
India starts building the Hanging Gardens in *chuckle* Lahore, a size 2 city with low growth. They are playing right into my hands.
Re riot Arbela :)

[6] Revolution ends and we emerge in Monarchy. Time to MM all those cities.

Our placeholder has 11 turns to go. We have 105 coins in the kitty. I start research on Literature, due in 9 at -14gpt.

I swap the Capital to the Hanging Gardens due in 25. Something tells me we can outbuild a size 2 city for it :) and good old Black Dot back to Barracks since I have a new plan for the capital. Antioch swaps to barracks as well, no need for a temple now (maybe a harbor would hae e better here, but since this is the closest city to the AI, I wanted a barracks first and for sure), and Parsagarde to Spear. Arbela swaps to Harbor so we have somewhere to build vet galleys.

[7] Merge two workers into Persepolis, gardens in 21. Lit due in 8 at -11gpt and 91 in the kitty... man, this is going to be CLOSE. Boring micromanagement in progress!

[8] Parsagarde Spear _> Spear.
The people love our new spearman so much they decide to flatten out that crappy land infront of our crappy palace
I think somone pulled Lit.... I can drop to 8 turns at only -5gpt now, which is goodo since the palace has 9 turns remaining. Check of F11 confirms. We are now #2 in literacy so one civ has Lit now, presumably India.
Shift MP from Sussa to Gordium to prevent riot.

[9}Antioch Barracks _> Spearman
Tyre Rax _> Spear.
India begins building The Great Wall...... In their Badass looking Capital. The one with rivers, A green cow, A Mined game, and several mined BG with a forest or 2 sprinkled in for good measure. No doubit who drew the long straw for a starting position this game. No way anyone else is getting that wonder but India.

[10] Parsagarde Spear _> Archer
Gordium Barracks _> Archer.

I left 2 workers unordered because it isnt really obvious what we want to do with them at this point. You have a choice of which city you want to help with them Lee.

Status:

Palace Prebuild has 7 turns remaining. We are currently showing Lit in 6 at -10gpt and 66g..... nothing like having a huge margin for error eh? Part of this is due to MMing for production this turn. We do need to get those forest squares roaded up soon for commerce. We MIGHT have to slow the prebuild a turn in order to get lit in time w/o going bankrupt, so keep an eye on this.

Hanging Gardens due in the capital in 18. Yes, the wonder combo will trigger our GA, but considering how long it might take to get iron, it seems like a good deal to me.

We have 13 Warriors, mostly regular, 11 Spears, and 8 workers.... really could do with a couple more of these. Perhaps we should skim one from Parsagarde. Gordium will be annother skim soon, and wo will wonder city when the wonder fishishes.

I just noticed The Aztecs have emerged in Republic..... maybe I should have "gifted" them Monarchy, to bad that though only now occurs. The other 2 AI still in Despotisim.

Our military is weak compared to our 2 closest neighbors, and average vs the other 2..... not the greatest sign, but we should be pumping units real quickly now since half the empire is on unit production.

Too tired to think of anything else atm. Good luck on your 10 Lee.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-350BC.sav

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 09:10 AM

Here is a pic of what the locals are fond of refering to as "West Persia"

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-WestPersia.jpg

LKendter

Apr 02, 2003, 09:27 AM

, WE HAVE NEITHER IRON NOR HORSES EITHER. :argh:.

I hope the title of LK44, 1.14 patch, AW suicide mission didn't jinx this game. We have to archer rush a Civ with 3pt defense units. I haven't looked at the game yet, but the report is bad news. We picked Persia for Immortals, yet we can't build them. :(

Although I agree we had no choice on the WM trade, our defense will be much more difficult.

Oh, I got it after SP5.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 02, 2003, 09:29 AM

Well looks like we got a shot at 2 wonders that will really helps us. Great Library and Hanging Gardens(in the capitol, fits us well).

We have no iron or horses, we might have to rush to invention to upgrade archers to longbow. :lol:

So we will need alot of catapults(I hope this message gets through) to get off this island. Initially for defense and then to reduce costs/losses to wage war. Catapults are our best friends to decimate foreign galleys and plaster any foreign landing parties.

Yep, granaries before aqueducts in cities other than settler factories is a pretty common weed that goes around. Those kinds of moves can just suck your cash flow (especially on islands) to zip and leave you paralyzed.

Would have been nice to have temples and harbors in Antioch and Tyre to raise a fleet.

Let foray begin!

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 09:54 AM

I couldnt agree more that we built too many graineries when we had other more pressing needs. At least the 3 southern cities got swaped out to harbors, which will help them grow just as much, though I'm sure the next thing they'll get is a grainery..... We got almost every city pined at size 6 now, or within a couple turns. I really capitulated on the barracks in Antioch vs the Harbor, but that is the most likely city to come under attack right away, and so I felt the barracks was a must. Hell, it needs a Harbor and walls too, but we won't likely get time for all that. At least we will have a partial answer to our happyness problem soon with the Gardens, and hopefully enough MP and temples we can drop this dredful tax.

Ordinrily I'm not a hguge fan of temples, but I feel like that was the hand we were dealt in this game and we should have played that.

On the plus side, at least we didnt have the 20 something warriors that I was expecting built. Fat lot of good those would do us since we couldnt upgrade them.

This is going to be a tough chore to to fight our way off the island while we have a window of opportunity. If that was anyone but Carthage or Greece over there with no iron/horses, we'd be in good shape. Nothing like the fun of an early Middle Age cat/Archer rush accross the ocean. If nothing else, we need to capture and fortfy Carthage for its pyramids, maybe building the FP over there.

At least we will get a GA for sure now. The capital SHOULD be able to crank a 20sheild unit per turn durring that :)

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
So we will need alot of catapults(I hope this message gets through) to get off this island. Initially for defense and then to reduce costs/losses to wage war. Catapults are our best friends to decimate foreign galleys and plaster any foreign landing parties.I would even set a city up to do nothing more than build them. In AW they are a huge unit. This is the unit that will allow us to hold off the larger forces set against us.

LKendter

Apr 02, 2003, 10:15 AM

On the subject on the golden age:
It will occur earlier then you think. IIRC the colossus in industrious, so we only need the library for scientific.

===========================

I agree with Cartouche Bee that we really need catapults to have a chance. I also agree with the people that we have TO many granaries and that they are killing our budget. At least some of them became harbors.

===========================

The big thing we need to plan is how to get off this island. We are facing attack 2, defense 3 Carthage almost guaranteed a GA. The next neighbor is India who will have War Elephants. I am completely stumped how to go in this game at the long-term strategy level. I think we need to start a brainstorming session on game strategy.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 02, 2003, 10:15 AM

I'm not that big a fan of temples either (lux are much better and we only have 1) but right now a temple and 3MP means a size 6 city needs no lux tax. With the hanging gargens it means we can free 11 MP's to the battle front.

The AI will go after soft targets with PTW, a lone warrior in a south city compared to cities with 3 units in the north will make them travel south.

If that happens we can turkey shoot them as they sail by with the catapults (if we have em). Then our galleys can go up against 1HP galleys instead of 3-4HP galleys.

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 10:48 AM

@ Lee- I believe the Colossus is Expansionist, Commercial, and Religious.

Graineries = great when you have rivers or no commerce shortage, but, well, no point selling them now. We might even have a rax or 2 more than we should, but we are behind in units and I felt we needed them. We need a few more spears, then Galleys, cat's, and Archers. I'd like to see whats on that island that carthage grabed. If it is iron or horses, that should be our first target as it will be lightly defended most likely. If not, then we might just want to go after carthace city and get those pyraids.

Matt_G

Apr 02, 2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by LKendter
On the subject on the golden age:
It will occur earlier then you think. IIRC the colossus in industrious, so we only need the library for scientific.

Lurk mode off.
The Colossus is Expansionist, Commercial, and Religious, so you guys won't get your GA 'early'.
Tough break on the resources guys. I look forward to seeing how you pull this out. I have no doubt you will find a way though. :)
Lurk mode on.

Edit: Todd beat me. Oh well. (Slow typer):lol:

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 11:15 AM

Lee, maybe you should rename this LK44- Attack of the killer no resourse needed units or who needs Immortals when you can build Archers, cats, and regular galleys. :lol:

I hope that the Aztecs are unable to contact the other continent till navigation, otherwise the tech pace will likely burry us as much as the lack of resources.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 02, 2003, 11:29 AM

If you look at the map, when we started, I now wonder what would have happened if we had built 2 cities on the lake. That would have allowed us 2 cities that would not need aqueduct and a passage from one side of the island to the other.

I've started other civs like that (not with the island passage though) and you can get a pretty nice early build up going on. [Just a note for future games for starts to watch for when ICS 2 tile rule is not in effect.;)]

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 12:08 PM

I think we go after Carthage first. Even with a golden age they won't be able to produce much. Looking at the map, I can't load the game right now, it looks like there is a nice two or three tile choke point between Carthage and India. If we could take that and build a defensive line, we should be able to easily take the rest of that pennisula without too much trouble. Of course it only gives us a lot of jungle, but if we leave enough of it open, the AIs will direct some of their efforts to filling it. I wish there was a river across there that we could stand behind, but this game has decided to make things more interesting. One thing that stands out is that Chittagong has iron.

Do we go for a lnding at Sabratha and push across to Chittagong, or do we go in at Leptis Magna and forge across to Hippo? Maybe, assualt Carthage itself and expand out, facing all comers?

Personally, I would assualt Sabratha and push to Chittagong. Drop pillagers off beween Leptis Magna and Calcutta to slow down the troops from the others and then land at Carthage and break their back. If the pillagers last, we might be able to use them to cut off the incoming troops and isolate Carthage, except by sea. However, the AI dosn't seem to use too many ships when they can get there in twice the time across land.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 02, 2003, 12:35 PM

I agree on going after Carthage but I would tend to plant a city on that point closest to us. Make a foot hold to last the test of time, rush improvements and build the pressure point. At least early on,let the AI come to us and apply a constant and building pressure on them till they break. Let them pour their resourses into wars where they lose 100% of the units and we lose almost none.

T-hawk

Apr 02, 2003, 01:19 PM

Man, I always wake up late when the most interesting stuff is going on... :)

Of course we're going to go after Carthage, eventually. However, it might do best to wait until the longbow era. Archers against Numidians is not fun, at all. We've got a lock on the Great Library (as long as someone else doesn't pull a Great Leader), so we can bide our time for a little bit. Get our much-needed aqueducts up and running, and libraries so we can research well when it becomes necessary. I'm always an infrastructure player, which is why I pushed so hard for the granaries. We can flat-out outbuild the AIs until the Great Library expires.

Cartouche's foothold suggestion is a great idea, too.. And of course build some catapults to keep our losses to a minimum.

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 01:40 PM

But Carthage is the point closest to us. Are we going to plant a city that close to it, or are you suggesting we raze Carthage and the Pyramids?

Cartouche Bee

Apr 02, 2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by meldor
But Carthage is the point closest to us. Are we going to plant a city that close to it, or are you suggesting we raze Carthage and the Pyramids?

I think I would be shot it I suggested razing the Pyramids. :lol:

We should be able to plant a city that close with sufficient units and rushing some culture to secure the spot. Adding barracks allows for some fast recovery to occur. This provides quick replenishment of troops and a nice supply line when we start hooking up to resources and lux.

If that option of the city sounds too risky we have to shuffle damaged units off the continent to heal but with that in mind as an alternative, another little trick we could pull is to build a fortress on that forest right next to Carthage and wage war from that. Shuffle units to heal but those that are left to be counter attacked will have a pretty good defense mechanism, backed by cats of course.

Just tossing ideas right now, we got time to get some support stuff built but it would be nice to keep the AI engaged in *real*war. :)

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 02:48 PM

What if we put a city on the corner of the samll island to the north. Would we then be able to aid the beachhead city by using the "virtual rails" as they did in the infantry SG? With Galley having a movement of three the cities would have to be no more than three squares away. If anything it would help protect or shipping.

Another possibility would be to start above the jungle and move down through it to get Carthage. The jungle would put a stop to the fast units of India.

Skyfish

Apr 02, 2003, 02:52 PM

On a general note :
Gotta a tip my hat off to the "beeline to Monarchy" strat, a real gem, some might say "lucky that it worked out in the end" but still one had to come up with the idea and one had to totally commit to it.
I think it shows that once you made a commitment you should stick to it no matter what...Colossus also the best choice, totally in line with the chosen strategy.
:goodjob:

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 07:27 PM

i wana see whats on that island. it might be bigger than we think. or there might be annother one up there as India sailed a galley in a direction that maskes me think that. I will bet that one or both of those islands has a resource we need, I'd like to check that out first. If it is 2 small islands, we could easily hold them by parking so that they couldnt land on them till marines :)

meldor

Apr 02, 2003, 08:30 PM

The island that I saw was a small one. It looked like you could see the other edges just under the fog.

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 09:11 PM

I think so too, but the question is how DEEP is it? ont know till we sail over and check it out.

Edit. If there are 4-5 lightly defended cities over there, i think it could be well worth our while to secure that island first, especially if it has horses or iron. The nearest horses that we know about are WAY over in India.

Also, when we get our GA, I'd highly reccomend using some of that production to build marketplaces if they are available, and maybe a couple courthouses, not so much for shield increases as for commerce increases.

LKendter

Apr 02, 2003, 11:27 PM

350 BC (pre-turn) - I switch Tarsus to catapult. We don't need a barracks for artillery units, and I can get the first one next turn.

250 BC - Our first military action - we hurl rocks and take 2 hp off an Indian galley.
We can drop the science slider down the last turn, so we avoid going broke.
(I) Science slider is turned off, and will stay off until Education.

230 BC - One round of rocks hurts the Indian archer that just landed on a mountain. A 4hp archer should killer a 2 hp archer despite the mountain. It does, and I draw first blood in favor of Persia.
(I) As expect, we get the Great Library. [dance]
This is a major win in AW.

190 BC (I) - We get the secrets of Republic from the library. :rolleyes:

170 BC - The galleys are starting to appear from the AI.
(I) Now this is useful - we get currency from the GL.

Summary - The harbor is Gordium is to start building vet Galley. 6 spt is very bad to build spearman / archer, but great to build galley. Spearman in four, or galley in 5 is a no brainer.

Since our workers our running out of city help, I am trying to get the whole nation with roads to help our troops move around.

CB will see our first galley. Hopefully we can play the hit with catapult; galley leaves city and kills, and returns to port game. You know every galley is loaded.

LKendter
Cartouche Bee (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)
Meldor
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-150BC.zip

ToddMarshall

Apr 02, 2003, 11:35 PM

Looks like a good turn :)

LKendter

Apr 03, 2003, 12:20 AM

I want to add a new prohibited exploit in the LK series effective now.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 03, 2003, 01:25 AM

Good call on the exploit, that's been known for ages and it really is something that got lost between Civ2 and Civ3.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 03, 2003, 01:26 AM

All this foolish talk about invasions with a Golden Age coming!

Yes, roads every where is one of the keys to our defense and I'll work on those as well. We only have 8 gold per turn with no research? Wow, we have alot of units, I thought I was going to have to go for units but now it looks like I can implement a defensive plan and start some of the infrastructure for the GA.

We have 2 galleys coming on line and I think that will be enough for me right now. I'm pretty sure that Bactra with one warrior is the target for all these AI Galley. I will get about 3 cats down there to attack landing parties and the rest up in the North. I will work the galleys to the north and use them to hit weak units coming or going. If I can get 4 cats up there I'm going to stop. I'm not going to use units on mountains and hills to much but will focus on getting the MP's in place in cities, except Bacta, it's the bait.

I'll build 2 more archers, 3 more cats, and 2 galleys but that's going to be it(just happens they are all in lee's build orders). When these units finish, it's on to infrastructure.

1. Antioch cat->courthouse Repell Aztec

2. Susa and Pasargade archer->worker the bins are full so it will grow back in 1 turn. Repel Carthage

3 Susa and Pasargade worker->marketplaces Tyre Archer->marketplace Delhi builds the Great Wall.

4 Arbela galley->worker Tarsus catapult->worker

5.Bactra galley->courthouse Sidon harbor->courthouse

6. Arbela worker->courthouse

7 Tarsus worker->marketplace

8.Persepolis Hanging Gardens! Golden Age! Marketplace Gordium harbor->marketplace Lux 0% Add worker to pers to get uncorrupt shields to 25 We take out our first loaded carthage galley using the cats to knock it don to 1HP and then finishing it off with a galley.

9. Our people add to the Palace. pick at galley and it flees for home.

10. Soften another galley, let's see if it wants to take a chance.

I have 2 main forces operating from Tyre and Tarsus. Their sister cities Pasargadae and Gordium are one turn away so you can get to the other side of the island with either army in one turn if required.

A few items will complete shortly leaving lots of room for structures if you please.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-50AD.SAV

ToddMarshall

Apr 03, 2003, 02:25 AM

I'd swap antioch to a Harbor first. We'll want to have it to heal our galleys quickly since that should be our main base of Naval operations. I do like the courthouse there, but I think the Harbor is more needed first, then the courthouse.

I like the marketplaces a lot. Have we not got Construction yet?? I like the idea of building temples/cathedrals/ducts in the core. We can get those cities to size 10 now with NO tax needed if we use full MP/temple/cathedral.

We might want to start prebuilding a wonder somewhere now. Getting Sun Tsu or consolation prize of Sistine would be huge. Sistine would allow us to have no tax at size 12 even with only TWO MP, and, ummmmm, I dont really have to explain Sun Tsu's do I :lol:.

I also agree on not invading for now. Lets wait for invention. I'm confident the AI is so pathetic at naval invasions that with our cat defense we have nothing to fear. Until they start sending Knight stacks at us in caravels at least heh.

Have we looked at that island accross the way? It is worth risking a galley to look IMHO.

PLEASE keep pushing infra for now. The extra income will help us much more in the long run than a few extra archers will.

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 02:29 AM

I'm up again? Still reeling from all the discussions in SP5; I'll play tomorrow. :)

BTW, one note that I don't think Lee has mentioned - it's usually preferable to zip the saves before uploading them. The reason is that ZIP has checks for if the download happens to get corrupted; it's rare, but can really derail an SG if it does.

No worries Todd, I'll definitely push infrastructure. I still say that invading Carthage before longbows isn't advisable. (Ideally we can time it for when we have longbows and they don't have muskets yet.)

Sun Tzu - I wouldn't pursue it. We already have most of the barracks built; the Art of War is more useful when you're conquering a continent (free barracks in all captured cities.) Sistine may be a worthy goal; I'll see what we can do.

ToddMarshall

Apr 03, 2003, 02:43 AM

I was thinking Sun Tsu's for denial. Especially if India built it. I would say once Feudalisim and Chivalry hits, they will be far and away our toughest opponent. But I do think Sistine may be almost as good, perhaps better. No reason we cant grow up and become a power now with ducts and cathedrals. I would swear off the tax for life till hospitals unless we find seveal cities in a one worked tile short of a magic # of SPT at size 12. I'm sure with some careful forthought it can be done.

Edit: One thing in Sistine's favor is that it works EVERYWHERE that has a Cathedral, not just on its home continent.

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 03:04 AM

By the way, what victory conditions are enabled? Would it be possible for Susa to reach a 20k win? If so, I might swap Susa to the palace prebuild for Sistine right now...? Not that we would be going for that for sure, but as a backup possibility if we can't expand out militarily?

LKendter

Apr 03, 2003, 03:45 AM

For the most part I agree with the infrastructure push. However, I still want a least an occasion new unit. If nothing else I want a couple more galleys to nail theirs with troops on board.

LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

================

All victory conditions are enabled. As for a 20K city - we only got 2 ancient wonders, not much for winning with 20K.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 03, 2003, 09:22 AM

Courthouse in Antioch conserves shields during the GA.

I was just getting that other galley up to the north. I doubt that we need more than 2 right now to kill everything that comes along. The Aztec have Lighthouse so they can get all the way to invasion point clear of attacks so that's why you need 2 strong forces.

Good thing we got the GA and hanging gardens because the turn just before that we were -3 gold per turn. That's from building things out of order, we will recover inspite only cause the GA else I think this would have been a loss coming up.

I'd vote for Sun over Sistine, we not are going to war under republic so Sistine does zip for us, infra in Susa is required to speed future construction.

[Edit:] Yes Sistine will help after hospitals (if we still don't secure some new luxs) but if someone else builds it we just take it. The Capitol would be a good site for Sun (25 shields per turn in GA) and I'd try a prebuild after marketplace to get a head start on it.

LKendter

Apr 03, 2003, 10:07 AM

I like the word courthouse very much. This is the best time to get our marginal cities more productive on a permanent basis. We definitely want to get some marketplaces before libraries, as we won't be researching for a while. However, we need more cash now.

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 01:55 PM

Well, let's do the math on the wonders. Sun Tzu's will save us about 10 gold/turn in the long run, and it will construct about five barracks for us saving us 200 shields. Net cost 400 shields for 10 gold/turn.

Sistine will indeed make a difference before hospitals, since we only have one luxury. We need 11 happiness factors per city at size 12. Three MP, our one luxury, temple, cathedral, and the Hanging Gardens is nine. So we need 10% lux tax or colosseums. 10% lux tax will cost 3gpt in larger cities (if it is generating 2 happy faces, that could be 2 gold that the marketplace will increase to 3); call it 20gpt total overall. Or that's also what colosseums would cost to maintain.

Sun Tzu's is 400 net shields for 10 gold/turn. Sistine is 600 net shields for about 20 gold/turn. I think it works out pretty clearly in Sistine's favor. Plus as Todd points out, Sistine works everywhere, not just on our continent. If anything, we want to capture SUN TZU's on the other continent since that's where it'll help us more.

Do we all agree we definitely have to build cathedrals for happiness? If so, I think Sistine is the definite choice.

LKendter

Apr 03, 2003, 02:21 PM

Since we have gone golden, any chance to grab both?

Ignoring the cash plus of Sistine, there is another major issue. I want to build Sun Tzu for the denial factor. Even late in the game the AI will still build regular troops quite often. The one exception is if one of the AI civs get Sun Tzu. Do we really want to face 100% vet War Elephants? This could cost quite a few dead units over the game, so I favor Sun Tzu.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 03, 2003, 02:27 PM

That assumes that the 3 tundra cities will really get to size 12. It also assumes that we will not get another lux until hospitals. It also assumes that all these cities will be producing 20+ base commerce when we are not in GA, few will. Only one lux entirely wipes out any gain we might garner until we get hospitals. If the Indians get Sun and the Great Wall, you will see why over looking Todds point on Sun denial needs to be factored into the calculation. The extra loss of troops we will suffer putting our longbows up against Elephants will be horrific. Besides, Sun actually fits the role we play, AW.

Details of the calculation aside, we have to base our calculations on what we have to do in the fairly near future, and that is acquire resources and luxuries, else we will go into the Industrial Age with no better offensive unit than longbows, that is the scenario you are trying to sell but I don't accept that.

[Edit:] Lee beat me to the post. :lol:

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 03:34 PM

Inherited turn:

When I first opened the game, my first thought was "Why aren't these cities building aqueducts?!" Then I saw we didn't have Construction yet. :D

Courthouses before marketplaces in the second-ring cities: definitely.

Persepolis was set to no growth..? Better size 12 running two entertainers than size 10 running one.

BTW, we didn't try to found embassies before declaring the wars? It's useful to know who's at war with who. Carthage in particular looks like they may be at war with somebody else, but we'll never know.

==========

50 AD between turns: Both damaged galleys run for home.

70 AD: Note that one square southeast of Tarsus is a better place than Tarsus itself for the defender stack; it can reach all the squares that it can from Tarsus and can also reach one square farther south (the mountain past Bactra.) Micromanagey in the extreme, I know. :)

Both India and Aztecs have Construction, so we'll get it this turn. I delay Pasargadae's marketplace to not finish this turn so it can build an aqueduct instead. (Two wheats = build aqueduct first :) )

We get Construction from the Great Library, and get Monotheism for free.

90 AD: We sink a Carthaginian and an Indian galley, although one of ours is left exposed with 2 HP.

Pasargadae, Tarsus, and Gordium switch to aqueducts.

110 AD: No galleys appear this turn and ours returns to safety.

130 AD: A Carthaginian galley meets Davy Jones.

150 AD: Ditto. Antioch builds a temple this turn; I did that to give us increased visibility in the invasion area. Can't sink a galley you can't see.

India begins building Sun Tzu's in Delhi. We may not even have a chance at getting that one, actually.

170 AD: One more Carthaginian galley. But there's a veteran Indian one that I can't reach with catapults and I don't want to risk a vet galley of ours to attack it.

190 AD: Too many galleys! There's FIVE within our view. We bombard and sink one, and bombard another to 2 HP but then it defeats our vet galley anyway. I put units on all the high ground within reach of the galleys.

210 AD: Two galleys sunk with no losses. But an Indian one that I can't do anything about has gotten around to our east coast, at Arbela.

Also this turn we need to raise the lux tax to 10%; four cities need it.

230 AD: I don't know why, but the Indian galley turned around and went back towards Antioch. It gets sunk.

250 AD: One more galley down, but it took one of ours with it. There's another Indian galley there that I couldn't do anything about, although I did manage to hit it once with a catapult so maybe it'll go away.

=========

The galley at Tarsus sank an Aztec galley this turn. But that galley came down our coast; it didn't jump across the gap between Karachi and Tarsus. Counting again, there does NOT appear to be a 4-square sea-to-sea crossing there. I do not think we need to defend the Tarsus area against invasion.

Persepolis' cathedral is a prebuild for a wonder; hopefully we can get Feudalism in time to switch. India has it but the others don't yet.

Cities like Gordium, Susa, Tarsus, Arbela need to build temples and cathedrals to keep themselves happy enough. Marketplaces are tempting, but they need to wait, plus in the long run we will be doing more research than cash once the GL expires.

And I still think Sun Tzu is of marginal benefit while Sistine is a one-stop-shop for all our happiness needs. Denial of Tzu's isn't insignificant, but really, India is going to have a good number of veteran troops anyway. AIs tend to have regular defensive units, because they build them early in a city's life and keep them forever; but they're usually smart enough to build barracks before cranking offensive troops.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-250ad.zip

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 03:35 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-250ad.jpg

Here's a current map, and an illustration of the sea-to-sea crossing. 1-2-3-4 are probably all ocean tiles. I did that grid very precisely in Paint Shop, so I'm quite sure the Aztecs can't cross there. Unless there is a sea tile we don't know about, of course, but I think that very unlikely, especially since they already did sail around the long way.

T-hawk

Apr 03, 2003, 03:44 PM

Also for wonders: Leonardo's is certainly more powerful for us than either Sistine or Sun's. It's unlikely that Persepolis' current wonder build will last until Invention is discovered, but we might want to start another wonder building in Pasargadae or Susa fairly soon. Hopefully, Persepolis and Delhi will get Sun Tzu and Sistine in either combination, ending the cascade before Leonardo's.

meldor

Apr 03, 2003, 09:46 PM

If Todd can swap with me, that would be great. I can't get this sooner than Saturday night.

ToddMarshall

Apr 04, 2003, 01:24 AM

I can do that if it is ok with Lee. I see your on line now Lee so Ill wait for an aswer.

Edit, bah, you just left, so I'll assume it is ok and go on and play. I wont post till I get the ok though.

LKendter

Apr 04, 2003, 06:44 AM

@ToddMarshall - go for it.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 04, 2003, 09:34 AM

Susa does have the commerce wonder, would be nice to spoon feed it up to size 11 (workers are great for many things) and cash rush the infrastructure so it can go wonder building again.

I was hoping that we would come out of the GA with a full complement of marketplaces to support the war effort but as long as we can manage a harbor or two up on the front I'd be happy.

ToddMarshall

Apr 04, 2003, 08:23 PM

Sorry for the delay...... I played and saved, then went back to finish testing this scenareo planing to post when I got up. Problem is the save is corrupted for some reason, and the scenario test overtook the same years and wiped out the auto save. I'm going to go back to my turn log and replay it *sigh*. I'll have it up in time for meldor to grab in the morning.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 10:49 AM

Or, maybe up in time for the afternoon..... Going to replay it now. Hope your not lurking out there waiting on me meldor. If so, I appologize.

meldor

Apr 05, 2003, 11:03 AM

No, my son's scout troop was part of the Relay for Life last night. We have been up all night and I will probably get a bath and take a couple hour nap.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 01:31 PM

Well, my first thought is what a really poor job of project coordination we have managed to come up with.. *sigh* Throwing away 14gpt for no real reson doen't make me very happy at all, but once again, we have managed to find a way to make it possible to be forced into running it.

At least the sight of *most* of the cities pulling in a near optimal spt (10-15-20-and 30 for the capital) level is a good sight. MM the 2 north cities where this isnt going on currently and needs only a moutian swap to pull it off since the workes will finish the mine on the inter turn. I really Dont like the idea of the 2 tundra cities pulling 1spt to grow twice as fast, when they could be pulling 3 spt to finish their courthouses 3 times as fast. That is a big mystery to me since their coin loss is horrendus. HORENDUS. Cut siddon to 1 surplus food to TRIPPLE the spt. Yes, growth is important, but this is a FISHING village, It needs to pull in COINS. I cut the other fishing village to NO growth to get the court doen 3x as fast also. This will MORE THAN make up for the commerce lost due to size limitation by making them not lose 70-80% of their commerce anymore.

Bactra is size 4, slow growing, and what IT really needs is a courthouse, so I swap to that. Gordium could also use a courthouse, but It does need the temple more, so the courthouse will wait. After that, it looks like the site to make some workers to fill out those fishing villages.

I want to swap to Marketplace..... I have no Idea why we didn't build these first, but the Aquaduct strategy is too far gone to rock the boat on it now.

Antioch swaped to Harbor so our ships actually have somewhere to heal, which is more important in the long run than 6-8 turns delay on a duct would be, especially since it has almost no land tiles left to work, and working sea tiles is pretty worthless till they pull in 2 food.. I thought somone would have made up for my weed in building a barracks there instead of a harbor by now, especially as i mentioned it twice......

Tyre really should have been building a temple as part of the comprehensive happyness program and to pull in the whale, but it's too far along to swap now, so it swaps to harbor since it is healing our ships at 1 line per turn currently, and would be done in 1. Yes, it needs a duct, it needs a lot. its behind in infra badly, but our ships need somewhere to heal.

Not sure why we are using bactra as bait when we can use that tundra village and set up an ambush.

[1} Sussa temple -> Cathedral
Tyre - Harbor -> Duct
Indian galley runs away, Carthage one shows up.
I send our regular galley out exploring that island. Time to see what is up there.
IT - Library pops Fudalisim.....

[2} Bombard a Carthage galley down to 1hp then sink it 1-2 with one of ours.
Send some workers down to lumberjack one of the forests at Sardis both to speed up the courthouse, and to set this up as the "landing square" for the AI. It wont offer them a defensive bonus then. There are also 2 cats, 3 archers, and a spear covering it. the spear can step into the city in case of emergiancy :).
Swap the capitla to Sun Tsu...... This may result in us needing 20% tax when the GA ends to keep the capital going full tilt on the wonder, but imho it is worth the risk to try to make sure we get one. After that, we can swap the good tiles over to sussa, merge workers into it to size 12 it and run our next wonder campaign from there.

[3]
Tarsus Temple -> Worker
Gordium Temple-> Worker
zzzzzzz
Island exploration continuse. So far 2 carthage citieswith regular NM's on top. No resources spotted yet.

[4}Parsagarde Cathedral -> Market..... why the hell didnt we build these FIRST??
Tarsus and Gordium Worker -> Cathedral.
Exploring galley finds an Indian city on that island.... wonder how big it is. No resources found yet.

[5] Antioch Harbor -> Duct
The peole are SO HAPPY we FINALLY built that harbor, they spontaneously add a 2nd floor to our palace.

India and Aztecs sial one into view. Aztecs using the sea so we cant hit them, we'll get India next turn.
Merge 3 workers into south towns, both size 4 now, and 2 into Arbela, which is not growing to keep GA shield production up.

Voyage of the galley Explorer finds the island to be just 3 cities and looks like no iron or horses present..... OF COURSE :(

[6] Aztec Galley sails past. I let it. Odds ov sinking a vet galley not good. let it walk into my trap. Indian galley sails home?!

[7] Indian Galley turns arround and comes after us?! Bizzare stuff. Annother galley of theirs sails into View. Aztec Galley approaches Trap point. Indian galley bombed to one, and sunk. Exploring galley finishes circling the island of still no resources and heads for home.

[8] GA ends forcing us to run 20% lux to keep the capital working full tilt on the wonder. :.( Annother Indian Galley bites the dust. MM things arround to get magic # spt wherever possible. Parsagarde can be changed over to a worker per turn factory later if we want to, but for now, its making and evil 11 spt, so we mine some tiles there as a priority unsess we want to worker factory it right away.Tarsus looks to be a partiular problem. it is extremely shield challenged. It may be the next place to go low growth and merge in workers to top off.

[9]Aztecs land a reg and an eliete jag.... lets hope we don't give them a GA.
Cats both hit the eliete, one archer loses 2hp and retriets the red, 2nd archer takes 2 kits but kills the eliete. 3rd archer redlines but kills the jag.

[10] Carthage 2 glleys into view. We bomb one down to one and sink it. We can probably get theother one next turn.

I don't think this was one of my better SG turns to be honest, but then I'm not usually in a situation where I really don't understand he build orders. What I wanted to do was prioritize markets, but that seemed way too far gone down the build aquaducts first, then temples, then cathedrals, then eventually get arround to markets strategy. We are currently forced into running 20% lux while we go after that wonder because the capital needs it unless we want to slow the wonder build by 1 turn. That will be meldor's call. If we stay the course, after 12 turns we can draft off a worker or 2 from there, and merge them into Sussa and make it go for our next big project. Sorry for whatever weed I leave you with meldor. GL on your 10.

Edit: We might want to swap Gordium over to Marketplace. IT has plenty of food and can build that, then draft people off to fill out some cities, then build the Cathedral. Parsagarde should also be used for this. We can probably have everywhere maxed in 20 turns if we do this right. I would not wory very much about the fact we have few workers. There are only a very few places that even need improving now, and other than a couple tiles at parsagarde that could be mined to speed production, or irrigated to make it a worker factory if we want to do that briefly to fill out everywhere on the island quickly, I don't see any tiles that arent improved that we are likely to be using till rails.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44350AD.sav

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
Well, my first thought is what a really poor job of project coordination we have managed to come up with.. *sigh* Throwing away 14gpt for no real reason doesn't make me very happy at all, but once again, we have managed to find a way to make it possible to be forced into running it.

What I wanted to do was prioritize markets, but that seemed way too far gone down the build aqueducts first, then temples, then cathedrals, then eventually get around to markets strategy.

I must agree that this time just doesn't seeming to be working well together. The line that comes to mine is "it's the economy...". We have gotten to obsessed on size 12 cities without the infrastructure to support them.

I don't agree with the blind growth strategy we are playing. We need markets and libraries when the GL is done.

====================================

I want to make sure the team agrees on the #1 wonder priority - SunTzu. To face a nation of pure vet units will make our job much more difficult. Could each team member vote on SunTzu or Sistine?
LKendter - SunTzu
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor
ToddMarshall

====================================

LKendter (on deck)
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor (currently playing)
ToddMarshall (out of order)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 02:08 PM

Lee, neither did I, but I spend forever analizing it. I mean, I looked at it for 2 hours and changed one citys build 7 times......... on the inherrited turn alone. Sorry, but I'm confused enough all I could see to do was just go with the die that had been cast and to try to make sure we got one wonder.

Nowhere but the capital was capable of making enough spt right now to go for a wonder atm. Right now, there is no choice. there is not a wonder tech we have besides feudalisim. The capital has Sun's due in 12. I really suspect we may get Suns and maybe Bachs if we prebuild for it somewhere. I'm fairly neutral on which. I'd love to get any of the first 3 (Leo's would be a HUGE help later), but since I can see India will be first or 2nd (hopefully after us) to get one, I'd like Sun's simply because of all the AI, that is the ONE I don't want to have it as they look far and away the super power over there to me.

Edit: Not only do WE not have annother wonder tech, unless I missed something, neither does anyone else. No one else is building any wonders besides Sun's. Maybe they will all beeline Mil Trad and break the cascade at Leo's/Sun's for us.

T-hawk

Apr 05, 2003, 03:59 PM

My wonder vote - Sistine all the way, as I said. Sun Tzu gives us a barely existent economic benefit, while Sistine takes care of all our happiness needs. (Leonardo's above either if we can get it, although it looks unlikely.) And Sun Tzu does not instantly convert all India's units from regular to veteran. It makes one-quarter to one-third of all their future units veteran instead of regular. (Edit: Of course take Sun Tzu if we don't get the tech for Sistine in time. :) )

As for building, there is one principle that overrides everything at this stage of the game: Population Is Power. It's true for every strategy game of this sort. The empire's power comes from its population. Every resource that our civ will ever have comes from a laborer working a tile. The more laborers working the more tiles, the more power we have. Once I'm into the stage of the game, in an improved government with aqueducts available, I get all the feasible cities maxed at size 12 as soon as possible. (Within some limits - I usually won't rush aqueducts in fishing villages.)

Todd complains about the 14 gpt spent on luxury tax. That 14 gpt is NOT going nowhere. Far from it! That 14 gpt is keeping six of our citizens at work; that 14 gpt is generating something like 12 food, 6 shields, and 6 commerce every single turn. Now do you see where I'm going? That extra food surplus will generate an extra citizen in a few turns. That 6 shields will get the cathedral a turn sooner, which will let the city work at full capacity sooner, which down the line will bring us our marketplaces and libraries and universities sooner.

The growth curve is exponential. It feeds on itself. At this stage of the game, it's ALL about the growth curve, no matter WHAT you have to do to keep it running. Raise the lux tax as much as necessary to keep the cities happy. Getting the cities to size 12 IS THE FASTEST WAY TO GET THEM TO BUILD ALL THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.

You want to lower the luxury tax now? You're grabbing a short-term economic benefit - that helps nothing because we are not applying the economy towards warmaking yet - in exchange for crippling our civ's production all the way through the Middle Ages.

Results in the competitive Realms Beyond Civ Epic games bear me out. Despite intentionally slowing my progress in Epic 24, I came within two turns of the fastest launch. In Epic 25 I cranked workers and grew my cities like mad, and had a runaway victory. Same with every other builder Epic - I've stuck to the growth curve and came out on top or very nearly so.

This game, despite being Always War, IS A BUILDER GAME for the moment. My moves have been geared towards increasing our long-term productivity as much as possible, since it is in the long term that we can win this game, not the short term. There will be plenty of time for commerce LATER. Commerce is MEANINGLESS right now! We've got the Great Library, and we aren't spending our cash. Why, then, do we want to save our pennies, either with the lux tax or with Sun Tzu's?

As for the fishing villages - the most economic use of them is to FIRST grow them all the way to size 6 and THEN level them off at zero food surplus to build whatever building they want to build. Those fishing villages are ONLY useful for us in what economic support they can provide. They will never build us a unit. So if you set the village to +1 food just to get +2 shields, what do you have 30 turns from now? You have a size 3 city with a courthouse, producing 7 commerce before corruption and 4 after. Now set the city to full food surplus. In 30 turns, we'll have a size SIX city, producing 13 commerce before corruption and 5 after - MORE EVEN WITHOUT THE COURTHOUSE, plus we're not paying the courthouse's maintenance cost. NOW, once the city is maxed, THEN build the courthouse - which will take only about 10 turns since now the city can work TWO forests without losing growth. 40 turns from now, your stunted city will be size 4 producing about 5 commerce. My fully-grown city will be size 6 producing about 7 commerce. And not only that, but my fully-grown city is still pulling two forests' worth of shields while your city is struggling with one because it still has to run a food surplus. That gets my city to build its aqueduct sooner, its marketplace sooner, and so on all up the entire growth curve.

POPULATION IS POWER. Raise that population FIRST, keep it productive, and everything else in the empire will fall into place behind it.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 04:15 PM

I want to make sure the team agrees on the #1 wonder priority - SunTzu. To face a nation of pure vet units will make our job much more difficult. Could each team member vote on SunTzu or Sistine?
LKendter - SunTzu
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk - Sistine
Meldor
ToddMarshall - SunTzu

Cartouche Bee

Apr 05, 2003, 04:40 PM

Looks like we have decided to stay on this island till the end of the game but I'm not. Even though we won't be in any position to do anything for ages cause we are not making any plans to mobilize from the situation I'm going in anyway. Wasting a GA for growth is just too bizarre and now we barely make any money and we are sure not positioned to do our own research.

I really don't care about the wonder stuff anymore, it's probably our last wonder except if we get some great leaders with our archers or spears. Besides we can't really afford to build up any troops while we slog our cities up to size 12. By the time we finish the cathedrals we should be making zip instead of 60 gold a turn but we will be happy. Running a city like Susa with Colossus at size 7 while we grow Gordium is just so bizarre I don't even want to hear the propaganda as to why that is a great move.

I'm going to probably make a landing over by Carthage on my turn and establish a city. This will give the AI a new target instead of our homeland. I'll build spears to protect the city and cats to pound and pillage (and at any galleys they send by too, that may be one way to stop the aztecs before they start sending knights) and I'm sure they will come in force so I want some force too. I'll use 3-4 regular warriors for disbanding (instead of paying to support them) to rush the improvements that we need and get a foothold. Library for culture , barracks, and walls. temple, harbor and aquaduct to spoon feed it up to size 7 for extra defense would be bice too but I doubt we will be make 10 gold per turn before long so I won't dream of that. I will dream about getting some Great leaders on defense though or an elite archer pulling a Great Leader attacking a stack of elephants, knights or longbows.

I doubt we will in a position to make a space race so I'm not going to play to set up for that either, we don't have any resources now so unless something changes drastically, that will be how we lose.

If we make contact with another civ can we buy iron off them and upgrade and then go to war, same turn? If we can do that I might hold off a bit and then again ,that might also play into this strat even better.

[Edit: for vote] I'd say Sun for defense and denial.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 04:45 PM

T-hawk

Apr 05, 2003, 04:51 PM

Even though we won't be in any position to do anything for ages cause we are not making any plans to mobilize from the situation I'm going in anyway.

We do have plans. Upgrade archers to longbows. That's when we can get an advantage, not now. If you invade now, you're soon going to be counterattacking Indian elephants with archers - terrible odds.

Wasting a GA for growth is just too bizarre and now we barely make any money and we are sure not positioned to do our own research.

Using a GA to shoot ourselves up the growth curve is the BEST use of a GA! We'll be in MUCH better position to do our own research if our cities are at size 12 and happy than if they're mucking about at size 8. With more laborers working more tiles, we'll have more economic power. That's true no matter what.

Running a city like Susa with Colossus at size 7 while we grow Gordium is just so bizarre

Of course I want to grow Susa. It just wasn't possible. Susa just built two wonders, remember? It didn't have time to build a granary, temple, aqueduct, all of which Gordium got so that city got ahead of Susa on their growth curves.

If we make contact with another civ can we buy iron off them and upgrade and then go to war, same turn?

As I understand it, we can, but we have to pay all up-front for 20 turns of iron and we'll only get the one turn. That probably would be worthwhile if we can trade techs for it, but probably not with cash. This won't happen, though, since we'd have to be connected over coastal waters with that civ to be able to trade, and we can see all the way around the two continents and we know there aren't any more coastal connections.

I am considering withdrawing from this game. I'm trying to follow a different game plan than the team is, which won't work out. And I especially will not listen to comments like "I don't even want to hear the propaganda as to why that is a great move."

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
Using a GA to shoot ourselves up the growth curve is the BEST use of a GA!

I am considering withdrawing from this game. I'm trying to follow a different game plan than the team is, which won't work out. And I especially will not listen to comments like "I don't even want to hear the propaganda as to why that is a great move."

I do agree with T-Hawk that using the GA to push infrastructure was the right move.

I wish I could identify WHAT our team plan is. I don't know why, but we don't seem to have a good plan. I will admit that I am having a hard time with this map. We are doing a pure building game in AW.

I am beginning to think that I picked a BAD start as reasonable. I thought the isolation would help, but it appears to be hurting us.

T-hawk

Apr 05, 2003, 05:44 PM

Here's why we don't have a good plan. Starting isolated changes ALL the dynamics of an Always War game, and it can be VERY much to our benefit, as it was. We are equal to all the other civs on the power graph. That almost never happens in AW, especially up on Emperor.

Now what we need is to reevaluate our priorities and tactics based on that DRASTIC change in the game situation.

"Build Sun Tzu's" is conventional wisdom for warmongering games. But I have pointed out that it gives us minimal benefit if you actually think about it. What we need is for Cartouche and ToddMarshall to come with you and me in reevaluating our priorities and builds in this very unique game situation. If we can do that, we'll have one heck of a shot at winning this game. If not, I won't want to be part of a game where I have to run a game plan that's against everything I think we should be doing.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 05, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by LKendter

I do agree with T-Hawk that using the GA to push infrastructure was the right move.

I did think that infra was good during the GA and set things down that route. I was the one building marketplaces 20 turns ago. A marketplace adds 50% to the gold these cities are bring in and that's like a 50% boost in population.

I think infra is still good but we already have signs that we can't afford what we are building. Bumping the population of Susa up to 12 (with workers! now and cash rush the harbor! for the food it requires) adds 20 gold per turn to the coffers. Almost twice what we have now. As I said many turns ago, work on the core cities first and the outer cities later. This keeps people from getting lost in primping 60% corrupt cities, where 60% of the effort goes down the drain. I have not changed my direction at all, I know I'm not going to attack knights with archers but I want to be on site when I do have longbows and not trying to figure out how I can do that 50 turns from now while I let the AI build up with almost no resistance.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 05, 2003, 05:55 PM

If you guys want to present a plan longhow on how we get from here to longbows and what you plan to do at that stage then why not present it?

I've been presenting plans that have been mostly over looked and ignored but I guess we can't all agree if everyone sits on the fence to vote after the fact.

I mean, if everyone is content to just sit on this island and wait for now then I'll do that too.

Skyfish

Apr 05, 2003, 06:12 PM

Some comments from a fan on the sideline :
- you guys have done a great job until now,
- you are *FAR* from a loss !
- the stategies presented are not that far away from each other
- some short term choices could be made that could be agreed by each of you without too much compromise.
- I.e : Cartouche's idea to land a beach head could be a mixed with a Longbow strategy.

It would very sad and regrettable if one of you drops out because of divergences, please do anything to stick together ! This could shape up to be a great game despite what you think right now, you are emotionally involved and do not see all of the good work you do together ! PLEASE !

meldor

Apr 05, 2003, 08:00 PM

I was under the impression that we were either going after the island and/or getting a foothold on the main landmass. I do not sitting idle while the AI builds. We all know the AI does not commit fully to any attack that requires a waterborne invasion. As it stands now, they will continue to send a few units while they march past us. If they have a hard target they will assualt it with as much as they have. The more units they lose, they more production they will devote to building those units. We must establish a presense on the main landmass within the next 20-40 turns or we will do nothing but fall behind. The only thing that made the last AW viable was the late capture of the GL. Here we got it early and we must be prepared when it comes time to live without it.

As for the wonder choice, I would prefer to go with Sun's. If nothing else, it will force us to get off the island. Of course, this is ultimately the choice of the person who is in the drivers seat at the time it comes due.

I will start on my turn, getting things moving towards a foothold on the mainland. Roaring sucesses sinking galleys won't make this game a winner.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 08:02 PM

I got a chance to look over the save.
1) I agree with T-hawk, switch the fishing villages back to 100% growth.
When they hit size 6, then optimize for shields and get the courthouses on-line. It will take a long time to go beyond size 6.

2) The whole debate on what to build for a wonder may be meaningless. Theology has not yet arrived.

3) Invention is only two techs away, probably 3, as Theology will probably be researched first. We need to get out of pure infrastructure mode soon.

4) We need to get start working on an invasion force ASAP. I agree with Cartouche Bee that we need to get ready for that city 3 spots from Antioch. It is hard to call when to land, as an archer stack with spearman will get ripped to shreds with swords, and nm. The clear goal will be Chittagong and get that crucial iron.

5) To be honest, I am sorry I picked this as a "reasonable start". I did not want to play atypical always war.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 08:29 PM

@Lee

1) I dont see the point in growing those villages at 100% when we can get the courthouses done and merge workers in to get them to size 5 and let them finish building then, but oh well.

2) I'll bet you the choice, if it exists, will be between Sun's and Leos.

3) I'll be surprised if invention doesn't arrive on meldor's turn.

4) We should have built markets and gone straight to this, but that not wat we did. We decided to piddle arround getting everywhere to size 12 first.

5) So am I. I'm staring to be sorry I ever signed up for this game, since if I do what 4 people basically think is wise, it gets sabotaged by the 5th. I see very little teamwork going on in this game, and if we have a strategy, I'm clueless as to what it is since no one can ever agree. This turn was *BY FAR* the most frustration I have ever had in an SG brcause I had no idea what to do or what the plan was. I tell you what, if we dont get a foothold near Carthage soon, we WILL lose because they WILL build libraries and research us into oblivion. And if we don't start working togeather, defeat is a foregone conclusion.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
@Lee

1) I dont see the point in growing those villages at 100% when we can get the courthouses done and merge workers in to get them to size 5 and let them finish building then, but oh well.

5) So am I. I'm staring to be sorry I ever signed up for this game, since if I do what 4 people basically think is wise, it gets sabotaged by the 5th. I see very little teamwork going on in this game, and if we have a strategy, I'm clueless as to what it is since no one can ever agree.

And if we don't start working together, defeat is a
foregone conclusion.

========================

I like your growth plan for the fishing villages, and I support it 100%. I didn't even think about worker merg, but that gets the courthouses faster and the needed growth. :goodjob:

On the game plan issue:
Once Meldor's turn is completed, I will be next.

I will *NOT* complete my moves until I come up with a general plan that everyone agrees with. I agree that we are out of synch here and it must stop. NO sg can be one with teams going in different directions.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 09:27 PM

@Lee saying - I will *NOT* complete my moves until I come up with a general plan that everyone agrees with. I agree that we are out of synch here and it must stop. NO sg can be one with teams going in different directions. I say AMEN.

@ meldor - Only the capital really HAS to have the 20% lux tax to keep it working. Dont forget to check every turn to see if hiring a specialist can be done yet without slowing the wonder by a turn. I meant to say this twice earlier but forgot. 10% lux would be a huge improvement over 20%.

T-hawk

Apr 05, 2003, 10:13 PM

Let me add two details that haven't been mentioned yet:

First, everyone is so gung-ho about denying Sun Tzu's to India. I would contend that denying Sistine is just as helpful, especially to India which builds tons of cheap cathedrals.

Second, has anyone looked at the diplo screens lately? All of our Great Library techs have come from India and the Aztecs. Carthage is several techs behind. There is no rush to start using longbows; even once we get Invention, Carthage won't have it, and will be a good 20-30 turns away from musketmen, and that's if they even have saltpeter.

Bide our time until we're ready to pounce. Get temples and cathedrals built in all our cities (besides the two fisheries), and with Sistine, that's all the happiness we need. I don't think we even need marketplaces, since they will only help us until the Great Library expires anyway.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 10:17 PM

SIgh..... calming down. T-Hawk, yes, population is power. We aren't advocating not growing the cities, only making markets first would have been our choice, since commerce is our most serious problem, then making workers out of our high growth cities and merging them in. You said yourself that you did that before (which I know you have), and THAT, to me, is the approach we should have taken to get to size 12, not growing EVERY city on its own.

@CB I agree on Sussa. Right now though, its stuck with not having the good shield tiles that are being used by the capital. That city is a PRIME target to start getting workers merged into it in about 10 turns. Gordium and Parsagared grow like weeds, make the workers from there and everywhere will be optimal size in no time.

ToddMarshall

Apr 05, 2003, 10:21 PM

@ T-Hawk yes ive looked at diplo. Thats why i dont think sistine will be available in 12. India doesnt even have monotheisim yet.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 05, 2003, 11:33 PM

Well I look at growth a lot different than most (from all those milkings). I know how to store food in workers and I know how to release that power into cities that can use it. A city size 6 can produce 6 workers faster than a city size 6 can grow to size 12. I also know that building up productive uncorrupt cities is alot more productive than building those on the fringe, so I make those fringe cities serve those that can produce more. Sorry if I don't agree to build across the board and chose to focus on specific goals to push forward.

But enough, I have attached a picture of what my type of growth pattern produces at 250AD and 350AD. My 250AD had dramatically more gold per turn. In 350AD, I've got 4 cities with caths already (including the capitol) and 3 are starting to produce units for the war. The others will follow as their time comes, that's how you keep the lux at 0 even when your not supposed to be able to. Gordium would be next to cath and the units are starting to be build. I know this type of build up is alot more effective so it's hard for me to go back to things I got over along time ago.

And this is not a tit for tat post, it's just a way for me to show how I would do it and why.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKCB_250AD.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKCB_350AD.JPG

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 12:35 AM

Exactly. That's called playing the hand you are dealt, which we haven't been, and it seemed like we never were going to be. I admit that your growth idea is what I was looking for, but didn't see how it was possible from what i inherrited and I was tired of trying to swim upstream against what seemed to be a flood going the other direction at this point.

T-hawk

Apr 06, 2003, 03:04 AM

Well I look at growth a lot different than most (from all those milkings). I know how to store food in workers and I know how to release that power into cities that can use it.

Oh, I do too. In nearly every solo game I play, I set up one or two size 6 farms that produce nothing but workers, and use them to max the population in all my cities. If I were soloing this game, Pasargadae would be doing nothing but worker-cranking; with all three food bonuses it could probably make the 3-workers every 4-turns pattern. It's very efficient: the food cost for all the population is simply lower, and you can keep all the cities at exactly the size they can sustain without luxury tax.

HOWEVER, I don't try to use that in succession games. The reason is that it never works for long. Somebody always decides to build an aqueduct and grow the city, and then the next player realizes the city needs a marketplace or cathedral for happiness, and by the time it's back around to me the city is size 10 and building workers would be a tremendous waste of food and commerce.

If we can actually agree on pulling that off, I'm all for it, but I've tried it before with several different crews and it never comes out quite right.

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 03:39 AM

@ T-hawk I set worker factories up in my last game when no one else did, check RBP6 if you need too. In RBP1 we did the same thing and no one messed that up (Charis, Gris, Carbon, Ozzy, me was the roster). In fact we did it too long really.

I have no idea why we can't do that this game even with the aquaduct and market built it isnt too late to go back and do it, and imho we should as soon as the wonder finishes. Thus the confusion on why all the graineries so early. it was inefficient imho when we could have worker factoried the pop, something ive done in the vast majority of SP games and in every SG game I've been in to date.

Edit: We are set up now so that "optimal" size for cities with cathedrals should be 10 + tax and 11 + clown, then we would need no tax. The 20% tax should only be needed for a few turns till we can work one les rr at the capital to get the wonder in the same # of turns.

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 04:20 AM

OK, I got outa bed to log on for this :(. Rather than doing a 3 every 4 in parsagarde, i would THINK (havent checked) it would be possible to just go 5 food/5 shields in gordium at size 6. its semi corrupt so it would be better than taking parsagarde out of the mix since its built up as far as it has, though parsagarde will still have enough food to skim a few workers between projects to help Tyre especially. If so, Gordium should probably switch to settler right now and we should merge that into sussa.

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 10:07 AM

HOWEVER, I don't try to use that in succession games. The reason is that it never works for long. Somebody always decides to build an aqueduct and grow the city, and then the next player realizes the city needs a marketplace or cathedral for happiness, and by the time it's back around to me the city is size 10 and building workers would be a tremendous waste of food and commerce.

You know what? The more I think about this, the more insulted I get. Basically you are saying we are all too stupid to be able to do something like this so you have to play down to our level. I find that a major slap in the face to the rest of us and I doubit I am the only one. That is exactly what we were planing to do before it got messed up. I'm not the only one who feels this way, but I might be the only one to say it pubically.

meldor

Apr 06, 2003, 10:24 AM

It's a ggod thing I didn't start playing this last night do to burn out and lack of sleep. I only played the easy SG. It sounds like we have a plan for develpment. I will switch Gordium to worker factory and start building up the first ring cities.

As for the wonder, it looks like Sun's is the majority choice. I will try to get Susa ready for a pre-build. If Leo's comes available, then Lee will have to decide which he wants.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 06, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by T-hawk
[i]

If we can actually agree on pulling that off, I'm all for it, but I've tried it before with several different crews and it never comes out quite right.

I think the only reason it does not work is that the consensus of build orders differs so much. I like to pull workers off the size 6 cities when the bins are full (or almost full) before going on to the next project, like units or marketplaces, harbors, temples and courthouses if they are required (are they going to be built here?) before the aqueduct (I'm not in a rush to build the aqueduct cause I know I'll conserve food pretty well). It's easier to support the infrastructure with the marketplace so it's a premium structure for good infrstructure buildups. I skip the granaries (hope for pyramids but still don't build granaries until metros come on line) every where except settler and worker factories (and I don't build worker factories in the inner circle of cities unless I'm peeling the workers off when they hit size 12). I pull workers off size 12 cities when the food bin is full cause it's just like size 6 cities they grow back in one turn. Eventually the size 12 cities can fill up the smaller cities with workers also.

The current situation:

I would consider rushing the 3 courthouses in the south and then build at least one round of workers out of them to pile drive back into the better cities. The three workers near Susa, would be adding themselves into Susa and get it started building a harbor next turn. Change the food tiles around so that Susa has the food not Gordium. Once Susa gets to size 12 with the help from some more workers, Gordium can get the bonus food tile back. Any city that is building a cath change it to marketplace and build the cath after, then we can pay for the upkeep.

Skip building libraries until we get education then go for them with a vengeance and start research at more than min but not to the point of deficit. Once a city gets it's cath it can start working on the war effort. Cash rush if it accelerates your position but try and keep the cash over 1000 for the mainland city rushes and upgrades.

We need more cats,spears and galleys. We should hold off on archers until we have about 6 spears or more and 20 cats over on the mainland. Once we get engineering and then invention becomes a near future tech, then we can pile on the archer production.

Charis

Apr 06, 2003, 02:47 PM

This has been an interesting game to follow for several reasons! Being on the verge of finishing a "island-start" Always War game, and having been in recent games with most of the folks in here, I wanted to share some thoughts that I hope will be helpful here.

First off, you guys have a *great* roster, and are *not* in bad shape at all! The game seems to be progressing quite well. Your biggest enemy will not be India, or Carthage, but if not careful... yourselves.

Island-start all war is a totally different beast from a typical pangaeae AW. Would it surprise you that our team went through a similar period in our game. We were getting hit VERY hard by barbarians, trying hard just to settle our own land, and falling somewhat behind on tech while the rest of the world happily traded away. For far longer than was comfortable, we floundered around without a sense of purpose. It was frustrating at times, not really knowing what the plan was, and feeling like we were just getting further and further behind as the game progressed. Fortunately, when this concern was expressed, Sirian stepped up to the plate with a solid plan. It wasn't the only good one available, but it was clear, and we could all rally behind it. The *main* factor in it was setting up 'virtual rails', where new units could ride rails, load onto a transport, arrive the same turn in a neighboring island, and get full movement on rails. Now we had archipelago, so this island hop had to be done several times to move troops into place. It was a major 'hassle', but omg, what a huge difference it made. We were then a well-oiled machine after knowing what we were doing and why, and progress came very very quickly after that.

We had no wars until AD times, and then only one easy war with a backward civ. Our first 'big' invasion was closer to 1000AD, and our invasion of 'the other mainland' wasn't til several hundred years *after that.*

In a normal game, naval conquest is tough, but gathering a nice large force, securing a beachhead, taking peace, then reinforcing it works well. Not so in AW. You'll have every civ on the planet coming after your beachhead, with no supply lines except literally shark infested waters. The effort needed to hold a beachhead far exceeds the benefit *until* that time comes where you have enough to press past that beach head and start swallowing up other civs.

Despite the 'AW' nature of the game, there is just NO RUSH to get into war in the early phases. As someone said in this thread, it really is a builder game right now! Think long term, and think growth and increasing your ability to crank out troops later. That also means getting a capable self-research machine together. If you see an island nearby that you can take, to increase your population and production, go for it, but apart from that, stay home and build like maniacs. Their day will come...

'Hard times' in a succession game are like debt in a family setting. When things are going well, spouses won't yell at each other for 'inappropriate spending', but add the pressure of big debt and suddenly small issues loom very large. One or two gpt swings just don't amount to much in the long run. Make posts that add explain, rather than 'pick on' what you think is semi-weedy.

Two last points (thanks for reading this far, if you have :P )
1) At *this* level of game, don't "spare" sharing any strategy that you find helpful in your own games but seems too complicated, or that others don't seem to be getting. Again, this is an outstanding group, and if something is explained clearly, they have the experience to 'get it' and make it part of their own bag of tricks. I find it amazing, that as a variant-deity lvl player myself, I'm constantly learning new things from you guys (one reason why I like to play with other folks I've not played with before). Sirian's 'virtual rails', CB's "peacetime extortions", T-Hawk's "Repubic" love, are just some of the many things that once I see them explained and practiced, become part of my own arsenal and now seem 'obvious'. In this game, for example, the concept of pulling off workers from corrupt cities to grow the most productive ones is outstanding -- once you've got that it's hard to imagine not doing it, or forgetting how non-intuitive it is to 'rob from the poor (in population) and give to the rich.' Don't 'give up' on it if others don't seem to get it, but take the time to explain it, and kick up the ability of the whole group a notch.
2) Assume the best in your teammates. Until they come out and literally and by name rake you over the coals, then give them the benefit of the doubt. For example, there was a very benign comment made here that someone else took as very insulting. The point of the original remark, and it's easy to see if you assume your colleague means you well, is that very specific maneuvers in a SG where everyone does things a little bit different and require that *everyone* is exactly on board or it can't work -- those are maneuvers not worth trying. I agree but would say that if you can clearly articulate the reason behind the maneuver, you have the chance to help everyone's game improve. For example, cranking 3-workers every 4-turns. To expect that to work requires that every single player in the roster know what's going on *AND* manually micromanage tiles for a given city two-three times during their reign. If it's 'rote' "do this", yes, chances are low. If it's "we have a 3 per 4 worker farm" and everyone knows why this is the best thing since sliced bread, it can happen.

What doesn't work is having an expectation, and not voicing it. Sirian nearly went into an apopleptic fit because we let one corrupt city gain +1 food per turn too much. Pulling your own hair out, or ranting on your teammates won't help that. But when he finally wrote an explanation of just *why* this seemingly minor thing was a major problem, and easily avoided, I think a lot of lights went 'on' in folks heads that game.

Anyway, you have a long ride ahead, and a bumpy one for sure -- so keep up the communication and keep down any thoughts of stepping on toes -- you guys can do this!! :goodjob:

Charis

Sirian

Apr 06, 2003, 05:31 PM

We had no wars until AD times, and then only one easy war with a backward civ. Our first 'big' invasion was closer to 1000AD, and our invasion of 'the other mainland' wasn't til several hundred years *after that.*

Actually, our progress was so slow, we didn't reach the tipping point on our first opponent until after 1800AD, and that was despite having two full cores of production. You can see the replay maps lined up across the timeline in the INF2 thread. I got us turned around and pouring logistics at the next opponent in the mid 1800's and by 1900 (exactly, to the year) we had finished them off. But it wasn't until 1930ish that we landed on the main continent. The ten turns from there until 1950 saw Gris and I endure the fiercest fighting of the game, as we gassed all four of the main powers, taking out HUNDREDS of units, mostly on defense, the rest picked off with artillery strikes that wounded units which we then mopped up. Gris lost the battle of Gem-Hadar but killed over seventy Greek attackers, losing about half that on our side. They attacked with more than anybody thought possible, and she did great to inflict such costs on them there.

The AI's in AW games pour all they have, offensively, at any holdings on their landmass. If you don't have forces on their landmass, they store up massive forces and wait-wait-wait. The player can make punitive strikes at particular cities, but it takes a massive effort to actually hold a beachhead. You need to take a leader along and forge a defensive army on their soil, hold a city (forget any roads, etc) preferably on a hill, behind walls, with plenty of artillery inside, and pour all you have into the site. Defensive armies are the only thing that will hold such a beachhead vs the full force of an unspent enemy offense, in my experience. The enemy can attrit your forces too much via streaks if you have only single units. If you can eliminate all discretionary forces, reducing them to the trickle of what they newly produce, you'll have won, so long as your own production base is not at risk. I recommend the Ship Trap concept come industrial age, though. The AI's may not be all that great at beachhead warfare, but they can pick your shores clean. This island has a lot of exposed shoreline. Could be interesting.

I wish you all luck.

- Sirian

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 05:35 PM

@ CB- Yes on merging the workers into the colossus city. It's why they are standing there. I still think gordium is corrupt enough and not really inner circle to spoon feed sussa and the 2 tundra villages once. I dont think we get enough return on rushing the courthouses to make it worth rushing with our cash situation . Tyre can be fed from pop overflow from parsagarde as fast as it grows.

Right now our need for working workers is almost non existant. Virtually everywhere is improved the way it needs other than some mining near parsagarde. There is a stack of 3 workers up there tha can swap one irrigation over to mine per turn somewhere, then we have NO projects for any workers and can stop factorying them at that point if we want. We cant afford to infinately factory them right now, or we'll be broke and unable to research at all. So we factory till growth of cities is complete then let the last city, gordium, grow up too.

T-hawk

Apr 06, 2003, 05:44 PM

It sounds like Cartouche and I aren't that far apart after all. The proposal I was arguing against was to start gearing up for invasion with our cities sitting stuck at sizes 8 or 9 because we didn't want to build cathedrals and we didn't want to have any luxury tax.

I think we're pretty much all agreed now to have a city hit size 12, with a cathedral, before it starts working on the war effort? And if we can get those cities to size 12 with workers more efficiently than we can with growth, I'm all for it. The remaining question is whether to build marketplaces. I still don't think so, because they give us nothing in the way of happiness and only about 6-7gpt in each city which will become 0 once the GL expires and we start researching.

I also think that if we're going to have the cathedrals everywhere, Sistine is still the better choice for the wonder (it's like an extra 160-shield cathedral as opposed to an already-built 40-shield barracks). But I confess to not realizing the tech situation myself, with Monotheism not even around yet, so our current wonder build is going to wind up as the Art of War anyway. I do think we should start another wonder build to grab either Sistine or Leonardo's.

Todd and Cartouche were complaining about having to run the luxury tax, but it was the right move at the time. I did the first step towards getting our cities to size 12, which was to build the aqueducts. We then had four size-7 cities that would have had to run a specialist, or we could raise the lux tax and recover all that food and shields, plus the commerce itself (and in Golden Age, six worked tiles at 2 commerce per tile recovers 90% of the income lost to the lux tax), plus put the capital's two specialists back to work on the wonder.

I think Todd's idea to make Gordium a worker-every-2-turns farm is good, if we can all agree to stick to it. As he explains, it's semi-corrupt anyway, and also for that city to be size 12 would involve it competing with Susa for good tiles. Gordium would then be the last of our core cities to max at 12.

ToddMarshall: I do apologize if you felt insulted. But I was simply stating the extent of my experience. That can certainly yet be proven wrong, of course. :)

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 07:06 PM

Hey, appology accepted and return one offered. I'm tired, which isn't an excuse. I couldnt't even sleep last night over this game =/. Yes, thats pathetic I know. NOBODY tell my doctor about this. Ive allready had one real life heart attack playing an SG turn (no, not blaming the game, it ws a coincedence I think. Then again, all that surrounding jungle WAS unhealthy wasn't it meldor?)

If it is ok with you, I'd rather not argue about what WAS right or wrong anymore, but just what IS right to do from here on out. I value concensus and working togeather as a team more than anything.

I realize that as far as skill, I'm probably the weakest link in this game and not afraid to admit it (Dont even try arguing with me meldor :p), but I can follow the plans and I have played with both CB and meldor and know they can too (and tn we will all 3 vouch for the others ability to do this??).

The very fact that this is LK FOURTY FOUR says everything anyone could ever need to have said about Lee's ability to coordinate things. 44 SG's is a monumental achievement in my book.

If I could only ask two thing of you, it would be to play your style like you would if it was an SP game, and that you discuss any radical plan changes before you do them :lol:. I've read your games. All of them. IMHO you are one of the 10 best players there is in SP. I've learned a lot from your games. At the risk of making this seem like a lovefest post :rolleyes: I feel I learned more from your games than from anyone elses, including Sirians.

I played SP for a long time before I ever even found out about Epics or SG's, or GOTM's (which I've never participated in) or anyones sites. I actually found out about all of these things from civ3.com when I went to get a patch, then from Sirians site which was listed there. Of all the people who's sites I've visited I found my normal playstyle to be closest to yours. Honestly, I was looking very much forward to actually getting to play with you (I'ts a bit short of hero worship though, so don't get TOO swelled of a head here :p).

But some ot the things in this game have seemed to me to be strange for you ie. grainery in some cities where it was odd when worker merge was more efficient. I would have probably built graineries in only 4 cities and done worker factory + skiming, and it seemed to me, that so would you naturally, and so would CB from what I've seen from his play and from the many private discussions we have had. (though hed be more top heavy towards skiming). As I say though, none of this matters now, as long as we all get on board with the same plan and go from here.

I hope all this makes sense.... I'm tired :(

meldor

Apr 06, 2003, 07:13 PM

350 AD (Pre-turn)
Rush build the three courthouses in the south forty. Change the Cathedral builds to markets where possible. Swap Susa to max food, giving it 6 extra for this turn and still get the Cathedral in next turn. Income +25 per turn after MMing.
(I) One Carthage ship reaches the coast another sail into view. The Aztec ship turns and leaves. Susa completes a Cathedral and starts a harbor. Arbela completes a Market and starts a worker. All three cities in the south get courthouses and start workers.

360 AD (1)
Income is now +37gpt before MM, 34gpt after MM. The Carthage galley outside of Tyre is knocked to 1HP and sunk. Move the Galley out of Antioch down our right coast. There are still some squares to uncover.
(I) There are now five galleys in view, three Carthage and 2 Aztec. Pasargadae finishes its Market and starts a harbor. Arbela completes a worker and begins a Cathedral.

370 AD (2)
The one Carthagian galley in range is bomobed to 1 HP but is not attacked as the attacking Galley would be within range of 3 enemy gallies during the interturn. Rush the Harbor in Susa. Merge in 3 workers. Income now 48gpt.
(I) The 1hp galley retreats. Susa grow and completes its harbor. It now is starting the next pre-build of the FP.

380 AD (3)
One more worker merged at Susa to get it up to size 12. It is then MMed for max shields and commerce. The FP is due in 13, giving us a hope at two wonders. A lot of the cats miss but we get one Carthagian galley to 2 HP and then sink it. We have nothing left to fire at the other so I move a block out. Income now 53gpt.
(I) The second Carthagian galley continues down the coast. An Indian galley comes into view. Antioch completes a market and starts a worker. Gordium finishes its market and starts a worker. Bactra trains a worker and begins a settler.

390 AD (3)
Rush market in Tarsus and merge in two workers. Bomb the Indian galley to 1 hp. 57gpt.
(I) The Aztecs land a sword on our shores. Antioch complets a worker and starts another, it is MMed for 2/2. Tarsus finishes a market and starts a harbor. Sardis trains a worker and starts temple.

400 AD (5)
Only one of the two southern cats hits the sword but a vet archer takes it without a scratch and promotes. Bomb a new Carthagian galley to 1 hp and sink it. The Aztec galley leaves. The Other Carthagian galley continues down the coast. Merge another worker into Tarsus and make him a temporary taxman. Rush the temple in Tyre. Income 61gpt.
(I) Another Indian galley comes into view. The lone Carthagian galley continues down the coast. Tyre finishes a temple and starts a Cathedral. The stinking Indians start Leo's.

410 AD (6)
Merge worker into Tyre. Rush harbor in Tarsus. Inconme 61gpt.
(I) Gordium completes a worker and starts a warrior. Tarsus completes its harbor and starts a Rax.

420 AD (7)
Bomb Indian galley and sink it.
(I) The Carthagian galley lands a warrior and retreats. Another Indian galley comes into view. Pasargadae completes it harbor and starts a spear. Carthage starts Sun's.

430 AD (8)
Go 1/2 on the southern cats but our elite archer takes the warrior out. No leader. Pasargadae MMed for max commerce and still get spear in two. Pound the Indian galley and then sink it. Merge one last worker into Tarsus.
(I)

440 AD (9)
The workers are made to get both Tarsus and Tyre up to 12 as soon as their cathedrals complete. Nothing on the military front. The lone Carthagian galley is coming back up the coast.
(I) Engineering pops out of the GL. Pasargadae completes a spear and starts a worker.

450 AD (10)
Start planting forests in the south. Worker moving to merge with Arbela. Income at 65gpt.

We now have 3 size 12 cities, 1 size 11, 1 size 10, 1 size 9, one size 8, two size 5 and 2 size 4. We can now start the push to invasion. Sun's is due in 2. I doubt invention will pop from the GL before that time is up. We do have a fair shot at Sistines if the Indians get Leo's. We are down Invention to India. Up Monotheism and Engineering on the Mongols. Up Engineering on Carthage and even with the Aztecs.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-450AD.zip)

ToddMarshall

Apr 06, 2003, 07:29 PM

Rock on :band: Great turn. I don't think anything more need be said. Depending on how big gordium and some other places are, I might still like to see it pop a few merge in workers, though from the looks of the city sizes, this may not be neded anymore. I hope our prebuild actually lasts to Sistine. If it does, I'm sure it is ours.

LKendter

Apr 07, 2003, 12:08 AM

I see it for tonight.

Will work on a game plan.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 07, 2003, 09:29 AM

meldor, nice to see our economy improved so much!

We have had alot of excellent comments and insights. We do have a problems on this island that we cannot ignore. Without iron we will never see the light of day. Our economic power on the island so poor that it will take us to the 1600's to get to the industrial age. Try this test, go to the science advisor and turn science up to 30%, that is the most science that we will be able to run for any length of time, period. It would take 33 turns to research invention, I know!, let's just say that libraries and universities just appeared and cost nothing to maintain, it would still take 17 turns to get to invention. Guess what folks, it does not get any better than that. It will take us 200 or more turns to research our way out of the middle ages. We need to be able to establish 2 sets of productive cities to make AW work on the research front.

That's why we need to plan a beach head. We know we can't win sitting on the island, so we have to do something to get off. It's not going to get any easier for us later in the game either, only tougher. It may be too late already. Yes, conventional AW would tell us to hold back but we will never make an impression with ancient age weapons and longbows against foes that are quickly advancing off into the sunset. An army may well be needed to secure a beach head but we won't get one at the pace we are going now, unless we get some troops into active action. We can still pursue the ways to grow our civ but a war plan needs to be implemented and actively pursued. With invention as a tech that could come up at anytime now, we should be actively making plans to use that advance to the best of our abilities.

The map forces us to go to active war in AW early on, not the normal cup of tea I'm afraid.

meldor

Apr 07, 2003, 09:52 AM

I tried to get us in a position that we can start to build mostly military. I would probably rush the two cathedrals in the last two first ring cities and start nothing but military in them asap.

I think we need to go after that iron as a very hard objective. We can put a city on the point near Carthage and move troops across without them losing their movement. I would go for toehold, and then all out assualt. Their will be no late GL capture to get us the upper Middle Age techs in this game. Pasargadae can build spears or galleys. We can shift Tarsus and Tyre over as soon os the cathedrals finish or get rushed. We cna also switch over the capital as soon as Sun's comes in. We have the cash to rush a Rax and Library across the way, we only need the spears and cats to get it going. If Lee sets you up, it should be ready to go at the start of your turn if not sooner.

I set Gordium up for 5/5 and had it alternating workers/warriors. hopefully, we will see iron sometime soon to upgrade them. Also the galley that went clockwise around our island looking for ways across to the other civs, didn't find anything. It is to the south and can be stationed near the trap to hit any galleys it can.

It may help us, if when we start our own research to have contact with the other 3 civs. It would be best if we could have solo contact with them until astronomy. Would it not help if we used a couple of suicide galleys to get contact? If the AI was going to get it, the Aztecs would have it by now. This means those three are on a pretty small area by them selves or even a few isolated islands. It might even be better to hit them first if we can mount it. They are most likely behind in tech and easier prey for our longbows. If nothing else, it should reduce our tech costs but not the AIs if we have the exclusive.

Just some random thoughts.

meldor

Apr 07, 2003, 09:55 AM

Oh yeah, they might only be warriors and not good for much, but putting some in the foothold may justg save us from losing some 1 or 2 HP spears and give them a chance to heal at the RAX interturn. I would rather lose them than the spear.

ToddMarshall

Apr 07, 2003, 01:36 PM

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up the problem. Our troops are as good as they are going to get until rifles unless we have saltpeter, which I wouldn't count on considering the way this game is going.

And lest anyone be tempted to say well, in the infantry varient game they waited forever to get off the island, yeah, they did, but they could because they had resources. Our only hope for any better military units than Rifles before Replacable Parts is for us to have saltpeter for muskets. You watch and see, I will bet you money we do not. We HAVE to throw everything we have at getting some resources. Either iron, or a saltpeter/horses combo at the worst.

While our chances of wining riight now might be low, they only get worse if we dont take action NOW.

Sirian

Apr 07, 2003, 04:11 PM

No iron?!? :eek:

:eek: :cry: :eek:

Um... :o

:(

No iron? Yikes. Been there, myself. You have my sympathies. :p

- Sirian

ToddMarshall

Apr 07, 2003, 05:27 PM

Sirian, No iron OR horses.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 07, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Sirian
No iron?!? :eek:

:eek: :cry: :eek:

Um... :o

:(

No iron? Yikes. Been there, myself. You have my sympathies. :p

- Sirian

I was not implying that this cup of tea had not been served before. :(

I'm sure you went and got some (iron), when faced with the situation. :) Handy stuff, later in the game to build rails if nothin else. ;)

LKendter

Apr 08, 2003, 01:46 AM

450 AD (pre-turn) - mm Arbela to finish Cathedral one turn earlier.
I have to prevent Gordium from RIOTING. In addition, it needs just one shield for worker, so heavy food configuration. The good news is I can fix both by gaining coastal squares.

460 AD - Another AI galley goes to the bottom of the ocean.
(I) Sun Tzu is completed. The debate was academic, as we still did not have the option for Sistine.
Indian cascades to Leo's in Delhi and no other wonders are in progress. Our pre-build just about guarantees us Sistine.

470 AD - I sell our barracks off to raise a few dollars.
Once again, another enemy ship goes to the bottom of the ocean.

To be continued.

1) I screwed us big time by thinking the island start was "reasonable". I apologize to team for really screwing up in picking the start. I have us so far in the hole that we may not be able to climb out due to my bad choice.

If we can actually agree on pulling that off, I'm all for it, but I've tried it before with several different crews and it never comes out quite right.
2) If we are to any chance to win this game, we can't have the above type of comments. The game will require perfect coordination to win. We need to delay turns if needed to get team consensus on critical decisions.

3) We are shield poor, but we > $1200 in the bank. I propose that we start building some archers for upgrade now. India has invention, and the other AI civs probably aren't that far behind. I would prefer to be able to upgrade a few archers now.

4) The timing of when to invade? ASAP. Persepolis will need a cathedral before the hanging gardens complete, but it will have to wait to build a troop every turn.

We need to do more to get this game going to a win, but I am ready for bed. I would appreciate comments on #1 and #3. I don't think we have a choice with #4, and my opinion is the whole team supports it unless someone objects.

ToddMarshall

Apr 08, 2003, 06:55 AM

On 1. Don't worry about it. Had you known in advance that it was an island that had no resources, then i might think diffrently :lol: Even horses would have made this much easier. AW is winable from an island, though resources are nice to have on it heh.

On 2. Is there annother choice?

On 4. Is there annother choice? I suppose we could wait arround for saltpeter, but who knows if we have it and I wouldn't advise it. We are going to need to make a beachead and hope we can hold it. Carthage is fairly weak, or would be without those NM :(. Maybe we can hold it. We have to try in my opinion.

T-hawk

Apr 08, 2003, 07:46 AM

1. We're not in any hole! (Except for lacking Iron.) We're ahead of every AI except India. I'm quite satisfied with this start - it gave us time to build three ancient and one going on two medieval wonders - you don't get that in a crowded start. And we are very fortunate that our closest neighbor is behind - smaller than we are - if Carthage had gotten as big as India is, we would be in trouble.

3. Of course. As soon as a city has a cathedral, start it cranking the archers. Especially any that can reach 20 shields/turn, although I'm not sure if any can, with Persepolis also still needing a cathedral. Consider cash rushing that cathedral (or a colosseum actually if that would be sufficient.)

4. When we can hold our invasion point. The hardest part of this will actually be managing enough galleys to move the troops. This is probably the best reason to settle an invasion city rather than trying to capture Carthage city immediately upon landing. An invasion city can be 3 squares away from Antioch and our galleys can safely sail back and forth.

I would say to not waste time on an island. Establish the beachhead when we can get something like 8 longbows, 8 spears, and 4 catapults there (yes, that is a lot), and let Carthage gas itself against said city. Any slow attackers will have to stop within city limits and get slaughtered by our longbows, and Chivalry hasn't been discovered yet so they will not have many knights for a while.

I think that's about what we need to secure an invasion point. Before railroads, the AIs cannot muster stacks of doom; only trickles of units that are within 3 or 6 squares of the target point. Muskets would be superb, but we cannot count on having saltpeter - we have very little terrain that's eligible for having it.

meldor

Apr 08, 2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by LKendter
1) I screwed us big time by thinking the island start was "reasonable". I apologize to team for really screwing up in picking the start. I have us so far in the hole that we may not be able to climb out due to my bad choice.Hole? we are playing AW on Emp level and we have a good shot at two of the first three MA wonders? This group is quite capable of pulling off the invasion with Longbows and Spears. This is a reasonable start and if it is less than optimal it will only serve to demostrate our skills :)

Originally posted by LKendter
2) If we are to any chance to win this game, we can't have the above type of comments. The game will require perfect coordination to win. We need to delay turns if needed to get team consensus on critical decisions.I don't think the problem was as bad as it waqs made out to be. It wasn't a question of what needed built it was a question of what order was best. BTW, it was my weed that got Gordium out of sink by one turn. It grew on the handoff turn and I didn't MM it as I should have, sorry.

Originally posted by LKendter
3) We are shield poor, but we > $1200 in the bank. I propose that we start building some archers for upgrade now. India has invention, and the other AI civs probably aren't that far behind. I would prefer to be able to upgrade a few archers now.That was some of the idea, I would prefer if we built the spears first and got the city planted even if we don't have invention at the time we do it. Being careful with cats spears and archers, we can get the process of gassing Carthage and get the library and Rax built in the city in time to be ready to take the offensive with the longbows. If we put the city on the closest tile to us we can load, move and unload on the same turn without the units losing movement. The galleys will also remain in prot interturn and so will be safe. Iwould think 6 spears and 6-10 cats would be a good start. I was hoping you would do the build up and CB could get the foothold.

Originally posted by LKendter
4) The timing of when to invade? ASAP. Persepolis will need a cathedral before the hanging gardens complete, but it will have to wait to build a troop every turn. Go with cash building to make up for the lack of shields in some cities. Get the forces ready to go as soon as possible. We may not have to build all of the cats, we can siphon some off of the northern group to take but the spears need to be built. We have enough galleys with one or two more to make the invasion now. The sooner the better. If we land a settler with 5 spears, the AI won't be able to react until we settle and get back with the Cats. Tehn we can start a regular shuttle service.

Originally posted by LKendter
We need to do more to get this game going to a win, but I am ready for bed. I would appreciate comments on #1 and #3. I don't think we have a choice with #4, and my opinion is the whole team supports it unless someone objects. The only thing I would change is to send one or two suicide galleys to see if we can get contact with the other civs. We are still a little ways from Education, but exclusive contact, especially when they can't send units to harrass us, would go a long ways to easing ourt research burden when we have to do it ourselves. We might be albe to keep even or close until we can get into the industrial age. Timing of the galleys may not be that critical though and it should certainly be a secondary or lower priority.

Summary: This game is far from lost. The cities builds are all but done. The only thing that I would have done differently is the building of the granaries, but I can see the reason it was done. We have the population and the cities almost to optimum and I think that this team will be able to handle it when we get going. Call it pre-war jitters or claustrophobia.

Sirian

Apr 08, 2003, 09:21 AM

I'm sure you went and got some (iron), when faced with the situation. - CB

Nope. I lost. "Butt handed to me" style crushing military defeat. I also had about twice the land you have here and two full cores. My strategy eventually became one of holding out in prayer of an iron resource relocating into my territory. That never happened.

I had some valiant military victories, things like SoDs of catapults redlining enemy ironclads and my galleys sometimes sinking the wounded ships. I must have sunk two dozen frigates, a dozen loaded galleons, and three or four ironclads, in my ship traps. My spears, horsemen, and archers, backed by catapults, put a good bit of hurtin on enemy rifle and cavalry landings, for a while, but the amount of units needed to fend off these forces choked my economy down down down. With my shores raked by enemy ships at a rate far faster than my workers could rebuild the roads, and with increasing numbers of enemy landings at different spots on my continent, attrition surpassed my ability to reinforce and collapse came quickly once the cities started to fall. When I could no longer afford even 10% science, I gave up the ghost and retired.

Perhaps if I had eschewed attempts to secure a foothold on the enemy continent and kept my own force smaller, building wealth and trying to get to muskets and cavalry, I could have done better. Probably not. I was caught between a rock and a hard place: my obsolete forces required higher numbers to fend off the enemy's stronger troops, and my increasing numbers choked off my economy, slowing my advance to stronger unit types. I'd have to say that iron is the one indispensible resource. Without it, you don't have a prayer. I could perhaps also have ICS'ed, plunking down junk cities on any expendable tiles, to increase my unit support and income, but that option was off the table. I was not interested in attempting that move and did not give it serious consideration.

I have tried Emperor AW once last fall and won, with iron on hand but no horses, albeit with two reloads to redo key mistakes. So technically, I lost that, too, but it was so close that changing a single move of a single unit, twice, avoided the loss.

I have tried Emperow AW three times now in PTW, and all have been crushing defeats. That you can no longer control when you make contact with distant empires, as the AI's now sell contact with you to one another, changes the game dynamics.

If you can gain control of the iron, perhaps you can win. There was no iron anywhere near the shores, and without it, my attempts to move toward it were all rebuffed. I had a foothold on the nearest AI continent twice, but without pikes and swords, I just couldn't hold out, much less advance.

This game at least has hope of securing iron. You only need to hold it, with connection to home continent, for one turn, to be able to upgrade your forces and train some others, which in turn would give you hope to make a second attempt even if the first is defeated. You definitely have your work cut out.

- Sirian

Cartouche Bee

Apr 08, 2003, 09:38 AM

1. Island was probably a great choice cause it gave us an easy defendable position early in the game. Worth a shot anyway.

3. I want to focus on what we need here. Spears and cats are my choice.
Yes, I'd like archers for up grades but catapults are required to wear down the attacks against us and later wear down targets. The AI units that come up for an attack have to survive the shots from the cats, if they are damaged there is a high chance they will head for a spot where they can heal, this gives us time to build up forces and get longbows on line that will be effective in taking out what the cats leave behind.
I think we should have about 6 spears and as many cats as we can get together. I think we should continue to build cats, even if we have 30 of them. We should try and keep at least 10 spearmen in the city and that would be a signal that we can start to build more archers. yes we can take a couple archers with us over to pick off any weak units we got down to 1HP but I'm don't intend to make much risk in the fights, leave the risk taking to the AI. If we really get to a point that we are handily beating them back and we have longbows, then I'd built a fortress next to Carthage and move a force in that could bombard the city down to size 6, yet take few losses. Damaged units would shuttle back to the beachhead to heal. We need to get up to about 16 spears to hold 2 tiles with units, defense against the combined forces of the other civs is what we have to play against.

4. The first landing will need about 10 units or more. Settler, reg warrior for disbanding, and an even amount of spears and cats. Eventually more cats than spears. A couple archers, mostly for show though from our current stocks. We need a few more reg warriors for disbanding and then cash rushing the required buildings. We should also be phasing out the rest of the warriors for spearmen. Disband warriors where they can save a turn on production.

I'd hold off on rush cathederals for now cause the cash to do that is very high and we need that cash now upgrades and buildings on the beach head. If we could build that city up to size 7, we have even more defense.

LKendter

Apr 08, 2003, 10:17 AM

I did not state the cathedral in capital correctly. It is holding at happy at the moment. It will NOT need the cathedral until rails when the Hanging Gardens expire. I will not waste our precious cash on rushing that cathedral. My question is do we wait until rails are near before building the cathedral? We can pump out a spear, archer or catapult a turn.

===========================

On archers building at the present time: Invention is one tech away. We have a very narrow margin to build archers for upgrade. If we go with all spears and catapults, then we will miss the window of opportunity. I don't want to strip the archers we have from the homeland, or a stray invader could really help.

===========================

5) At the moment the AI bait city is at the bottom of the continent. Do we want to move it closer to the north? That way troops being built in the coming from the south will be in the position to deal with the troops that still land.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 08, 2003, 10:44 AM

After reading Sirian's last post it occurs to me that we should not only establish a strong beach head, as a great diversion to sucker the AI into a fight but... Then do another navel expedition of 6 spears and 6 longbows to a point with the shortest route to grab that Indian city with the iron. If we decide to do that we sure want to conserve cash to upgrade our spearmen.

@Lee having the city close means we have safe and quick supply lines back to our Island. Even if we get longbows, without cats we will just be impaling ourselves if we use them against full HP foes. I think we should even divert off the hand building of wonders now cause we need to mobilize. I'd say Great Leaders are more important for acquiring key wonders at this point.

meldor

Apr 08, 2003, 10:53 AM

I think we have a long way to go before we get invention. It took them quite a long time to sell Engineering to the Aztecs. I would assume that the Aztec will have to come up with some more cash before they get invention. I would suggest getting the spears and Cats first. Then maybe doing a round or two of putting out archers before the foothold gets hit hard. However, getting the foothold and keeping it should have the highest priority, even above building the archers.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 08, 2003, 02:05 PM

So now we are at the point that we agree on making an invasion but have different visions on what will happen on the invasion. Meldor and I have a similar vision on the invasion point and the requirements to hold the spot.

So this is what I see for now.

To me, we will have four civs throwing units at us, we have not seen their power being launched at us by sea. It will take us at least 4 turns before we have a fairly secure town to wage war from, even then we will not want to venture out of the city with units or they be pummeled by the AI. We can only attack with archers/longbow when they have a stack to go after, we can't pick off single units else our unit is exposed. Every step we take on the mainland has to be made with force and purpose. We have no chance of taking Carthage, then holding it and the beach head without a defensive strategy that sustain the counter attacks we will suffer. We have to face a continual supply of units that will be thrown our way. This city provides a place for the AI to focus their attacks on. That allows us to implement the plan of survival and acquire iron.

Getting that supply of iron will bolster our defenses greatly, it is much more important than getting Carthage. Carthage is a likely second target and we could only hope to land bridge over to the iron, for now, but iron will provide us with a great defensive power. I would go so far as to say I hope we don't have saltpeter. I would rather have 2 Pikes than 1 Musket.

If we do go for the iron we have to consider that we need to rush a barracks(upgrade those spearmen), harbor, walls, and library for culture. Let's not spend our cash on cathedrals now, if a city does not have a cathedral now, tough, build one when we can afford it or let the city take as long as required to build it naturally. Sell all the granaries in size 12 cities, no sense in paying for those the next 250 turns before we need them again. We are at war for survival.

meldor

Apr 08, 2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
....We can only attack with archers/longbow when they have a stack to go after, we can't pick off single units else our unit is exposed....I had thought about bringing this up but thought it was so fundamental that it didn't need mentioning. This is a very big deal.

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
...If we do go for the iron we have to consider that we need to rush a barracks(upgrade those spearmen), harbor, walls, and library for culture...They only desire to rush the cathedrals came from wanting to get them to max size and military production asap. The cathedral in the capital can and should wait. The others would depend on how far they are to completion if we don't want to rush.

One more thought. When we grab Carthage we could move the Cats and most of the defense up there. The AI will then have to go past Carthage to reach the weaker city. This will give us the same sort of trap we are using for the galleys. It would be super nice to get a leader and an army. This would greatly ease the grabbing of the iron.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 08, 2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by meldor

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
...If we do go for the iron we have to consider that we need to rush a barracks(upgrade those spearmen), harbor, walls, and library for culture...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They only desire to rush the cathedrals came from wanting to get them to max size and military production asap. The cathedral in the capital can and should wait. The others would depend on how far they are to completion if we don't want to rush.

My quote was really directed at the city where we capture the iron from, not intended to be aimed at any existing cities at all. I'm with you on the cathederals.

I think your also right about Carthage and another problem we will face there is that we can not rush any buildings until the resistance is eliminated, so it will be the soft target according to the AI. It would be nice to have pikes to defend with once we take Carthage.

If we do build a harbor in the iron city, are we able to get iron back to the home land? Or do we have to march spearmen to that town to upgrade? Either way I think the AI will focus on the softest mainland city targets before going after SOD's on the move.

ToddMarshall

Apr 08, 2003, 07:46 PM

We should be able to get the iron back to the homeland once we have a harbor city with a road connection to the iron. Right before we get the iron might be a good time to make mass warriors too for Immortals. Better defense than those longbows and i think the same upgrade cost.

LKendter

Apr 08, 2003, 08:07 PM

470 AD (continued) - As suggested to increase GPT, I sell the granaries in the near size 12 cities. I keep Pasargadae with a granary as it could skim workers very quickly if needed.

480 AD - I sink another inbound galley, and one returning galley.
(I) India completes Leo's Workshop in Delhi.

510 AD - We get to sink another galley. A galley is damaged, but to of a risk to attack.
(I) OUCH. We get Chivalry from the GL. We will be facing war elephants.

540 AD - I actually kill units that landed on our soil - An Aztec MI and archer.
I continue the perfect galley killing streak.

Summary - A landing force is starting to collect in Antioch. It isn't there yet, but Persepolis is shipping a new unit every turn. It has 3 galleys, and 2 on the way. There is a settler, and a few units. 2 of the Cathedrals finish, so troop building will increase.

Our big problem is no sign of Theology, but palace completes in 8 turns!
I just slowed in down to 13 turns, but that may still be to long.

Confirmed plans:
Unless someone objects, these are considered "written in stone".
A) Sistine Chapel is the end of wonder building by hand.
B) The capital will delay the Cathedral until rails are near.
C) Hoard cash - no rushed buildings except for landing zone walls, temple, barracks, and maybe the harbor.
D) Initial invasion point in 3 squares from Antioch.
E) Sell most of the granaries to help with gpt. I would like to keep a couple in the high food cities to be able to skim workers quickly if needed.

To be decided (quickly)
1) Do we want have a backup plan of 20K in Susa? This would require an immediate library to have a chance.

To be decided (long term):
2) Where is out target for Iron? The possibilities are Chittagong or Karachi (raze and replace closer to Iron).

====================================

LKendter (currently playing)
Cartouche Bee (on deck)
T-hawk
Meldor
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-550AD.zip

T-hawk

Apr 08, 2003, 08:17 PM

It's probably too late for a 20k in Susa; the city didn't get any of the regular cultural buildings built in ancient times. It might still be able to make it before 2050, but it isn't going to be able to do that early enough to beat an AI space launch if we don't have the military to stop that.

We could build the library anyway, since we'll want it soon enough anyway so we may as well do it sooner and keep alive whatever outside shot there may still be.

I agree with A-E with these exceptions:

A. Magellan's would be worth building. But I'd have a hard time justifying the research cost of the technology. Better is probably to hope we can capture it.

C. Rush library at invasion point, not temple. ;) Harbor will be necessary when we start acquiring resources but not before then.

Iron - I don't think we can decide yet. This is a long term project at best; prepare to be using longbows for a long while yet.

I haven't looked, but where are the horses? If we do turn out to have saltpeter, can we make a research run to Military Tradition and start going with cavalry?

Cartouche Bee

Apr 08, 2003, 08:18 PM

1. Let's see if it gets a chance to build Sistine before deciding.

2. I vote Chittagong because it will have less opposing cultural influence and an easier target.

I'll wait for the consensus before proceeding with the game.

LKendter

Apr 08, 2003, 08:38 PM

Chittagong was my gut feeling on the Iron. We try to lock the narrow strait with India, and sweep north claiming anything we can.

meldor

Apr 08, 2003, 10:37 PM

I would go with Chittigong as well. We can back Conquer the pennisula and go from there. Should we also risk a mini-sod to get to India's horses and pillage them?

LKendter

Apr 08, 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by meldor
I would go with Chittigong as well. We can back Conquer the pennisula and go from there. Should we also risk a mini-sod to get to India's horses and pillage them?

War Elephants require NO resources.
I won't matter until cavalry arrives.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 12:48 AM

OK, I'm going to proceed with a beach head and see what happens. :) No side adventures for now, this will probably prove to be enough for the next 10 turns. ;)

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 04:56 AM

I would not be averse to going for one of the smaller to build science wonders in Sussa to take advantage of colossus stacking. We can use all the science we can ger.

meldor

Apr 09, 2003, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by LKendter
War Elephants require NO resources.
I won't matter until cavalry arrives. But it allows them to sell them to someone else.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 07:48 AM

Does India have *2* horses?

They will never sell there only source of something, even if they don't need it.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 09:04 AM

The war measures act is proclaimed to secure the drive for a beachhead.
MM to save any time on current caths that are being built. Change Susa back to full steam production, I will starve the city of shields if we don't have a new wonder to switch to before the palace completes.
The drive will start as soon as we have 5 galleys in Antioch. Antioch is switch to galley to complete next turn.
Units are placed to react to invasions as unified forces. Set bactra as my homeland bait city again with 1 warrior.

560AD 4 galleys are loaded. The invasion will wait for the 5th galley to arrive, rested for a full trip. Pars will cull a worker.

570 Mine irrigated grassland at Gordium, drops time to produce cathedral another turn. Culled worker will be added to Arbela.
580 The troops are landed. We take out an Aztec galley that foolishly drifted toward our coast. We redline an Indian galley but alas, we have not spare galleys due to the invasion. Another irrigated plain is mined, Tarsus now can clear 10 shields once the cathedral is done.
590 Found Samaria in 590AD. Walls are rushed. We take 4 shots at near improvements and miss all 4 times, the troops are nervous. We catch that redlined Indian galley and scuttle it. We redline another Carthage galley and sink it also.
600 Samaria rushes library. A single unit arrives at Samaria to test the defenses. We redline the MI to show we mean business and remove improvements near carthage by catapult. We sink another Indian galley.
610 Samaria rushes barracks. Get theology and Invention. Change to Sistine, still 13 turns to complete with an adjustment from Gordium that does not decrease it's 5 more turns to complete cath.
620 Upgrade 10 archers to longbows (leave 1 elite archer in case we get a chance to fish for a leader). Samaria rushes temple for further culture.
630 Samaria culture border expands. Redline 2 MI and 2 Galleys. Finish off 1 MI and 2 galleys.
640 This is unbelievable, the AI are currently asleep at the wheel. Nothing in sight. The calm before the storm.
650 We learn gunpowder! Yep, no saltpeter, about as far away as the iron. Carthage risks a single unit against our massed force.

Well the beach head established. We have 41 units in place. :)
I also think we should build a cathederal in the capitol now after the current longbow, since we will have sistine in 8 turns, if it works out we can drop our tax rate 20% like T-hawk said.

Good Luck!

LK44-650AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-650AD.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-650AD.JPG

meldor

Apr 09, 2003, 09:15 AM

Almost sounds like we should take a shot at Carthage before the rest of the units make it there form the overland trek.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 09:20 AM

I agree on the Persepolis Cathedral. If we can drop the luxury tax, it will be a major plus for our Civ. What we need above all is to improve our economy.

====================

41 units already over there.
That is a great start. Our big question is can we start an offensive soon? I can't look at the game from work, but I suspect most cathedral building is done and we are in pure troop mode. The good thing is longbows will hold as decent attack units until the industrial age.

====================

The big question will be what to do with the leader. How soon do we rush the fp? This is not a typical AW game where we can wait and build 2 perfect cores like the Mongol AW game did.

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 09:40 AM

Either Carthage or Utica look like good FP sites to me.

Edit: No saltpeter either? Look at all the mountians hand hills we have and no iron or saltpeter. Maybe we'll have every coal source on the planet :lol: (then again, we probably don't have any of that either.)

T-hawk

Apr 09, 2003, 09:49 AM

Great turn! I've got it, but will wait for more discussion before playing.

Gunpowder from the GL - great! That doesn't happen often.

We are in full troop mode now. Should we back off from that long enough to build libraries and universities? Or go all out with as much conquest as we can do before riflemen, but then we will need to catch up in tech? I'd say not to kick into research mode until we have a second core up and running, but once we do have an FP and a ring of cities around it, then we need to.

For when we get a Leader - it's the FP, no contest, of course. Rush the FP as soon as we have a flip-proof city on that continent. I'd say not in Samaria because it's location is pretty bad; not in Carthage city because we will be keeping and not razing that; but in the first city that we can raze and replace in a location slightly beyond Carthage.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 10:18 AM

With the AI sitting back to build SOD's to hurl at us, the short cross country trek for iron is out. I had hoped that we would draw attention to the beach head and could saunter over to the Iron. A more direct and road connected path looks alot more feasible now. Only two cities between us and the iron, we just have to test the water on our way.

Not sure about the tech thing yet, I was tempted to start min research on chem to work toward cannons. I think this is down to touchy feely time.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 10:28 AM

I think we have to stay in heavy troop mode. Once rifleman arrive we are at a severe disadvantage with longbows.

We do need to add a library and university when we can spare the time. The first library is clearly Susa to take advantage of the Colossus. Once education appears will be HAVE to start getting at least shield cheap libraries. Even at half price, universities will be expensive to build. However, the best thing to help research is more cities and an FP core of cities. We are in true AW mode and the decisions on how much time we can "waste" on buildings.

I think our first goal will be a choke point around Leptis Magna and Hippo. This insures a safe path to the iron.

My feeling is to get some catapults into the forest by Carthage and start mass bombardment to get it to under size 6 including destroying the improvements. Having the Pyramids in our hands will do wonders to get that other continent going. Plus, anything the saves us cash helps.

==============================

I like the idea of starting 1 scientist research on Chemistry. I don't think I have *EVER* seen that from the GL.

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 11:05 AM

I think Lee's post covers my opinions. Sussa should be put on library and university for sure fairly soon. Depending on the rech pace and availability, I would not mind trying for CoP or Newtons there at some point either. As long as we can hold the beachhead, that should at least keep the AI from building Universities or any more libraries.

None of these AI is very strong except India, who does worry me

Edit: I have seen Chemistry from the GL, but I don't think we will see that this game. I actually got PHYSICS from it once.

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 11:07 AM

We will need alot of troops to hold off the attacks and that costs money in support.

It could well take us 30-40 turns to secure these immediate objectives. If that were the case doing min research for 40 turns to chem with the goal of securing iron and territory to drive forward with 2 cores of production. If that were the case, we could be content with the decision.

However, we do have the question of Susa, if we proceed with a library and university at this point, how close are we to getting a 20K before 2050? We should hopefully still be able to get Heroic Epic there also! :)

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 11:10 AM

Build newtons there. Massive culture per turn and colossus combo too.

Edit: of course we would have to get the tech in time to pull that off. I really like the idea of Susa just being a non unit making city and beind our one bigtime builder city.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 11:38 AM

Well the reason I am pushing library in Susa is it is 1 1/2 libraries thanks to the revenue of Colossus. We really have to take advantage of the fact to pull this one off. If we could pull of Copernicus or Newton we could have a science super city.

One of the big reasons for my military push is to shrink the shield pool. If we can get Carthage down to just the island, they are a non-player. That will do wonders toward having a chance to win this one. I notice how behind the Mongols are in tech. They are NOT as strong a player. It will be rough, but we do have a chance.

Above all, to have any chance we must have TWO cores going. I would like to raze and replace most of the Carthage cities outside of the pyramids. I want to build cities tightly (3 apart) for instant culture lock. By razing those cities, we can get the workers improving behind the lines (at least 3 from the borders).

With the troops defense level required we couldn't afford a disaster flip. One flip with 20 units in a city could give us the loss.

One leader thought - if we get one real soon, then don't sit on it. If we don't have an FP site, then build an army to increase future leader choices. Heroic Epic would clearly be in Susa.

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 12:00 PM

Don't discount the possibility of 20k there. T-Hawk can get out his calculator and tell us what we need. We'd need a lot of wonders there I'm sure, but I think that could just be super builder city for us

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 12:29 PM

I don't want to drop the 20K thing if it looks like we can still go after it. We have enough troops that we can afford to let that city do it's thing towards a win but if that well dries up let's go on to the next plan.

I think the second core is what we have to do also, but I think iron is the next big key for us in achieving that goal. I do like the bottleneck idea, it just seems to me that if we could pull that off then we should be able to get iron and with iron our out look changes dramatically. Then we could go for the bottleneck with 50% better defense.

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 12:51 PM

I haven't opened the save recently. Is there any saltpeter on this side of the bottleneck? Right now that may be more benifit than the iron since we are training longbows allready. The upgrade cost is much steeper for muskets though I realize.

T-hawk

Apr 09, 2003, 02:03 PM

Getting out the calculator on Susa, and doing rough estimations...

Currently has 528 culture, 17/turn until 730 AD = 664. Sistine in 730 AD, library in 750 AD, Great Library doubles in 770 AD, colosseum in 800 AD, university in 850 AD, gets it up to 38/turn.

Still roughly estimating:
Copernicus in 1100 AD, city has 1914 culture, now producing 42/turn
Newton's in 1300 AD, also temple and cathedral double, city has 2754 culture, producing 53/turn
Heroic Epic in 1400 AD, city has 3800 culture, producing 57/turn
Universal Suffrage in 1600 AD, ToE in 1700 AD, city has 5700 culture, now producing 64/turn
Sistine, library, colosseum, university double by 1850 AD, city has 8900 culture, producing 79/turn

I'll assume we don't get modern culture, since if we do then we can get to modern armors and we don't need culture. :) I'm also leaving out the small junk like Battlefield Medicine, Intelligence Agency, Military Academy.

At that rate, Susa reaches 20k in... hmm... 2040 AD. I guess it's worth making Susa a builder city anyway, but more for trying to stack Colossus-Copernicus-Newton, and we can take 20k if it happens to come our way.

BTW, there are three saltpeters nearby - one to the north in Carthage territory (on our side of the bottleneck), one about three tiles past the bottleneck at Calcutta, and one somewhat south of there at Bangalore.

ToddMarshall

Apr 09, 2003, 02:50 PM

Well, noncomitally, I'd say we should keep the option of going for one of those saltpeter open instead of the iron if it looks easier to get first. Muskets would do a lot to hold off knights we'll be seeing soon enough =/

Edit: I think those 2 science wonders should be attempted if possible. The 2nd core will help more, but getting at least one with the colossus is a nice boost. Bach's is fairly worthless to us, for a long time with sistine and cathedrals up everywhere. Dont forget to build the infamous colosseum in sussa too heh. It's too late for 20k now, they'll launch, but we might as well try anyhow. I wouldnt consider any of the other preindustrial wonders worth the effort to build, other than Newtons and CoP unless we get a nice free leader in time to rush Smiths.

T-hawk - Modern armors would assume we have oil in that tundra :lol: Are you counting on that?? We may be the proud owners of a completely resourceless rock. Maybe thats why we got so pissed off at the rest of the world heh.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
T-hawk - Modern armors would assume we have oil in that tundra :lol: Are you counting on that?? We may be the proud owners of a completely resourceless rock. Maybe thats why we got so pissed off at the rest of the world heh.

:rotfl:
:rotfl:

T-hawk

Apr 09, 2003, 03:42 PM

Inherited turn:

Since lux tax can go to 0% as soon as Sistine completes, I swap Persepolis to cathedral now so that it'll be ready at the same time as Sistine is. Also I can swap shield tiles for Sistine to be due one turn sooner (putting Persepolis at 19 shields/turn, terrible for longbows but okay for a cathedral.)

Starting a 40-turn on Chemistry can't hurt (although it may not help if we want to to build Copernicus which will require researching Astronomy); a scientist is hired in Sardis. Bacrta and Sidon are adjusted for growth; they might as well get to size 6 instead of sitting at 5.

==========

Between turns, a stack of 4 Numidians, one longbow, and one MDI advance next to Samaria.

660 AD: Much bombardment ensues. We lose one longbow attacking a 2-HP Numidian but defeat the rest.

670 AD: A Carthage galley lands a Numidian AT SAMARIA. It's redlined but we don't venture out of the city to kill it. An Indian galley redlined and sunk.

Education comes in and renders the Great Library obsolete.

680 AD: Next to Samaria are two Indian MDI, one Carthage longbow, and one Jaguar Warrior. After bombarding, our elite archer kills one MDI, but the others would require venturing out of the city to kill. Also two Carthaginian galleys are redlined. One is sunk, the other one BEATS our attacking galley, then another galley kills it.

Between turns, an elephant and three jaguars jump out of the fog and attack Samaria. None win; the elephant retreats.

690 AD: After bombardment, we lose one longbow and kill three Numidians, one MDI, and one elephant, giving us our first elite longbow.

700 AD: A big Indian stack has arrived. After bombardment, we kill one elephant, one longbow, and four MDI, with no losses. No galleys have appeared the last two turns. BTW, India and Carthage almost surely have RoP given the movement I'm seeing of Indian units.

710 AD: We use six catapults to redline and kill one Numidian and two longbows.

I think we have an opening large enough. Twenty catapults, ten spears, and eight longbows advance into the forest next to Carthage city.

Our forest stack loses one spear to an attacking longbow. No other units approach our beachhead. Two galleys appear.

720 AD: Carthage city doesn't even have a veteran Numidian showing.

Twenty catapult shots later, Carthage has suffered 3 HP damage to units (it has at least four Numidians, none veteran) and absolutely no other damage. Waiting to drop this city to size 6 is going to take forever...

And we sink one Indian and one Aztec galley, but lose one of our own attacking a redlined galley again. Argh...

One MDI attacks our forest stronghold, and our spear wins. No other units appear except two galleys.

==========

Sistine Chapel completes! Luxury tax goes to 0%. Persepolis hires two entertainers for one turn until its cathedral completes.

730 AD: However, bad news - India researched Astronomy this turn and got to cascade from Sistine to Copernicus. I need a group decision before I finish playing - do we pursue Copernicus? India's build of Sistine was going for at least all of my turn - how long ago did it start?

If we want to pursue Copernicus, we need to start Susa on a new prebuild immediately (even before its library), build libraries everywhere else for the next 3 turns, and then start maximum research. Research would take 11 turns at -124 gold/turn in our current configuration, although libraries would drop that to about 8.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2003, 03:55 PM

We can't afford to burn our cash reserves for a maybe wonder. The only way we will get Copernicus is by a leader. I don't even what to count on that. I think if we count shields on that city, we will find that it is too strong of shields to compete with Susa.

However, education is out. I don't think continuing 40 turns will be worth it on chemistry. If we research at that pace, we lose the game by fighting with to obsolete of units. I think we will need to place follow the AI for the cheapest tech choice, and try to squeeze out a few libraries as we can. No matter what, we can't afford to stop moving forward on the front. If anything, we need another settler to build 100% flip proof city.

meldor

Apr 09, 2003, 03:57 PM

I know some people think this an exploit but what about blending in some of our workers to carthage after we bomb it down and capture it?

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 04:05 PM

The Indians I think already cascaded to Sistine from Leo so long ago I was worried if we would even get Sistine before them. We have no chance of getting Cops unless they are building from a size 2 city.

I don't see how we can drop everything on the war front to go after Cops since we already calculated that the 20K win will likely be long after the AI launches a ship. We simply cannot stay in negative cash flow thought to TOE.

Your cat attack on the city shows why I was going so heavy on the builds with them but they do save alot of losses for us while inflicting a little damage. The RNG runs in streaks (someone will explain it does not but when you fire these puppies it sure does) so as many as we can afford to do the job until it is done is all we can do (until cannons, only slightly better though).

Let's get some more views before we decide. Is that OK?

Good move in the capitol by the way. :goodjob:

Cartouche Bee

Apr 09, 2003, 04:11 PM

We need the second core to make research work for us. Unless we do negative financing, and we can't sustain that for more than a tech or two and then we are broke.

Chemistry at least takes us towards cannons and it will help due to the number of cats we have. It's also is another step to riflemen.

T-hawk

Apr 09, 2003, 04:59 PM

Lee and Cartouche say not to go for Copernicus (although, Cartouche, going for that would not be sacrificing on the war front except that Susa wouldn't be building troops), and I think I agree - we probably can't beat Delhi anyway. So I went ahead and finished my turn now.

730 AD: Twenty more catapult shots at Carthage result in 1 HP damage and one destroyed temple.

More catapults redline two galleys, and we lose ANOTHER (that's three on my turn) in sinking them.

Our spears in the forest lose to an MDI but beat two longbows.

740 AD: A Mongol stack of 8 units (they must also have RoP with Carthage and India) is outside Carthage, where we can't reach it this turn. Two Indian elephants are reachable; they get redlined, although one kills a longbow of ours before dying.

Twenty catapult shots THIS turn result in: 5 HP damage (Carthage has at least 6 Numidians!) and a destroyed marketplace.

Our forest spears beat two out of three attacking MDI.

750 AD: Could not bombard Carthage this turn as I needed the catapults to fend off the Mongol stack. We take no losses and promote two more longbows. One Carthage galley is sunk.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750ad.zip

=========

We're in a stalemate at Carthage. I've been trying my best, but that's an impossible nut to crack unless our catapults get lucky and score 6-8 hits on units in a turn. We're losing spears to counterattacks, too, although we can mostly replace them faster than we're losing them. Our longbow that's sitting exposed went there to attack a musket, which I wanted to kill before it got into Carthage city. The Aztec jaguars there are actually helping us by restricting Carthage's movement.

Feel free to change any of the build orders.

As for research, I say to continue the minimum run on Chemistry. That gets us a tech for FREE, and it's the only way to do so in Always War. Further techs don't help anything until we get saltpeter anyway. Besides, while we do that, the AIs will research other techs and then we can play follow-the-leader for devalued techs using the saved gold for deficit research. Finally, continuing minimum on Chemistry lets us keep focusing on the war effort now; when we have about 10 turns left on the research we can build libraries and universities then. All in all, it doesn't delay access to any more units - we won't get to either saltpeter or Nationalism any sooner by doing max research now.