World Size = Standard
Continents = 40%, wet, warm and 5 billion years.
Difficulty = Emperor
Barbarians = Sedentary, this will be hard enough without barb problems.
# Civs = 7
NOT culturally linked, NO restarting players.

Civ = (open to debate)
I am again going to attempt to start an emperor always war game.

This game will require a reasonable start before I pass it to the next player.
My definition of reasonable so far is:
1) Can't start in a jungle rot area
2) Can't start point-blank range of another Civ, as the starting units will equal death.

I will open the expansion of the list if I get five players. One idea that came to mind is no Vikings, as dealing with coastal cities under siege will make the game even harder. I don't even know if emperor can be beat aw style.

This is intentionally 1.14.
I don't want to lock out non USA players.

Mandatory requirements
Play The World Expansion
Deity experience is mandatory
AW experience is preferred.

Signed up:
LKendter
Open
Open
Open
Open

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I'd be up for this.

What about England, expansionist so we can grab some techs and commercial to make up for the fact that we will be stuck in monarchy. [no guts, no glory]

[Edit:] Man-O-War is the most awesome wooden hulled UU available. :lol: But it does suck, I'd rely on wonders to get a GA instead of them. ;)

Signed up:
LKendter
Cartouche Bee
Open
Open
Open


Once we get 5 players we will debate civs.
Expansionist is nice for the high chance of settler / city.
However, the Man-O-War sucks for a UU.

Once we get 3 more we can start the civ debate in detail.

Now I don't mind missing out on LK43 if I can get in on this one. :)

England - forget it. Expansionist is terrible in AW - your scout is dead as soon as it meets another civ, remember? And a city from a hut comes with no defender and is dead if another civ reaches it within 10 turns. And we'll want a Golden Age much sooner than the Man-O-War.

We could go with the old standby of Greece, or solid Japan, or powerhouse Persia. I can't think of any expansion civ that's really well suited for AW. Carthage is just a wannabe Greece. Celts are a maybe, although I'd think the losses suffered would be too high for the Gallic Sword to help. The Vikings can of course tear apart the medieval age, if they can survive the ancient.

Anyway, count me in. :goodjob:

Signed up:
LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Open
Open

Once we get 5 players we will debate civ.

Don't knock expansionist in AW. In our Viking and Mongol games of AW we got a nearby bonus city. That is huge for a game like this.

Expansionist also means contacts sooner, and as we know, that makes AW games harder. It's a gamble, which I don't think would be worth taking.

The Iroquois and Vikings are the only expansionists worth considering, IMO.

Do keep in mind the advantages of Scientific - the obvious ones with us having to do our own research, but also there's the free Nationalism tech when we get there, which pretty much instantly means we won't lose.

With LK43 and soon to be RBP7, I am maxed out for games now. But I will be following this one closely and hope that all goes well for you. :)

How about the Germans, we could get our golden age by stealing wonders. I think we would almost have to nab the GL in this one just as before. Oh, yea, sign me up.

Lee, my deity experience is weak, but my always war is many. I'd like in since LK42 should end soon. Your call.

BTW, the Ottomans are scientific and industrious, and the Sipahi are awesome...if you can make it to Mil Trad...I think we have an old always war to prove it, though at Monarch difficulty.

I think doing it with England on continents would be a feather in our hats but a safer bet may be wise.

Conventional thinking puts Greece in the forefront (scientific and commercial) but a military civ (like meldor suggests) should be also be considered since it is AW.

To be honest, I think we could do it with any civ if we get a decent start, so don't expect me to worry over which one we pick, we will use them to it's best advantage, what ever it is. :)

Signed up:
LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor
Open


@Mystery13 - IMHO a deity game will be easier to win then this one. Would you be comfortable going above deity?

=======================

I have decide to trim the list of possible civs:
Worthless UU - Korea, America, Celts (we can't afford 20 shields for move 2), Carthage (if we want a 3 defense unit Greece is better), France (extra attack for a defense unit), Spain, England

I don't want a despotism GA for a weak unit - Egypt, Aztecs, Babylon, Zululand,

This leaves the below as marginal:
Arabia (I think the rider is better, even if this one is 10 shields less)
Germany (military and science, awesome uu, but game decided by the time it arrives)
Mongols (military and expansion, but the uu is to fragile)


This leaves the below as high possibility
China (military and industrious, awesome uu)
Greece (scientific and commercial, great defense,
India (commercial and religious, guaranteed our uu)
Iroquois (expansionist and religious, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Persia (industrious and science, awesome uu and we don't face them, stuck with despotism GA)
Rome (military and commercial, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Japan (military and religion, great uu (no horses)
Scandinavia (military and expansionist, awesome uu)
Russia (science and expansionist, great uu, but a bit late)
Ottomans (science and industrious, killer uu)

Any comments on the above from the players signed up?

Lee, my AW experience is limited to 2 humiliating defeats on emperor (both due to close starting neighbors primarily), and one win on monarch, though I have not tried it recently and think I could handle it now as I believe my play has improved. I do beat Dieity most of the time. It's up to you.

Signed up:
LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor
Mystery13 or ToddMarshall ?
Waiting on answer from Mystery13, Todd Marshall if Mystery13 declines.


My comment on reasonable start is about not encountering another civ in the first 30 moves, and getting a decent starting location. Sorry, but I refuse to try this with a jungle infested capitial.

Todd, you are welcome to start making comments on the Civ.

I'd like to use either Persia or the Iroquois. Both have a powerful ancient UU, which I think will make the difference in withstanding the initial rush from our opponents. Persia's is more powerful and lets us go on the offensive sooner (with industrious combat workers, too), while Iro's is a very nimble counterattacker against incoming units. Both civs have a cultural attribute, too. The Iros could be used if you crazies insist on an expansionist civ, and it's also a possibility to try hopping into Republic with them during times of low war activity - say, after we secure our continent - to grab an economic advantage.

A despotism Golden Age isn't really wasted, if you've gotten to expand to at least a few cities first. Also note that if the GA commerce boost gets us to research an improved government sooner, that's as good as having the GA in the new government. If we can survive long enough to get the UU (and the resource - the Iros have another advantage in that they get to see the resource a tech earlier than the UU becomes available), we should have a decent chance.

China (military and industrious, awesome uu)
Votes for: LKendter
Greece (scientific and commercial, great defense)
India (commercial and religious, guaranteed our uu)
Iroquois (expansionist and religious, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Votes for: T-hawk
Persia (industrious and science, awesome uu and we don't face them, stuck with despotism GA)
Votes for: T-hawk, LKendter
Rome (military and commercial, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Japan (military and religion, great uu (no horses)
Scandinavia (military and expansionist, awesome uu)
Russia (science and expansionist, great uu, but a bit late)
Ottomans (science and industrious, killer uu)
Votes for: LKendter

My votes are for primarily for any of the industrious civ as a shields sooner = more military sooner. That will make a MAJOR difference IMO.
If I remember correctly science gives you BW to start, which could be an important consideration.

A quick note about expansionnistic and AW: I did suffer a humiliating defeat in Monarch about 2 months ago... because all my opponents were expansionnistic. I was at war with the whole world circa 3000bc !
So expansionistic is awesome in an AW game... for the ai.

Shouldn't be a problem on a continents map, though (mine was pangea).

1. Greece. It provides a high survivability early in the game. The science trait provides both a science boost and cultural access. The commercial trait gives us more commerce, less corruption and a leg up on getting to map making.

2. Persia. Has the right traits also and gives us a running start on offense. I could not complain about this choice.

I'd say the best time for a GA would be when we have enough cities for the FP, either of these civs give us that capability.



I do hope that we pick a civ with the scientific trait over any other trait. I'm torn between industrious and commercial as the second trait and I think either could provide substantial benefits. The religious trait could provide some benefit under ideal situations but I'd prefer to be sure that we get some sort of guaranteed return on our pick of traits. The military trait would also be nice but I think we will shoot for Sun Tzu. ;)

Japan, Rome and Persia would suit my taste unless we want to take the easy way out and go for Hoplites.

Edit: looks like Persia is getting a lot of votes. I've never actually played them so I think I'm just down to Persia and Greece above other choices.

China (military and industrious, awesome uu)
Votes for: LKendter
Greece (scientific and commercial, great defense)
Votes for: Cartouche Bee
India (commercial and religious, guaranteed our uu)
Iroquois (expansionist and religious, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Votes for: T-hawk
Persia (industrious and science, awesome uu and we don't face them, stuck with despotism GA)
Votes for: T-hawk, LKendter, Cartouche Bee, ToddMarshall
Rome (military and commercial, great uu, stuck with despotism GA)
Votes for: ToddMarshall
Japan (military and religion, great uu (no horses)
Votes for: ToddMarshall
Scandinavia (military and expansionist, awesome uu)
Russia (science and expansionist, great uu, but a bit late)
Ottomans (science and industrious, killer uu)
Votes for: LKendter

I still want to hear Meldor, but it is looking like Persia.
My #1 trait is industrious.
Cartouche Bee #1 trait is scientific.
I am unsure with the others.

Prefered traits, scientific, industrious, milataristic, so-so commercial (yes, this makes Japan an odd pick for me, but they just seem to fit an AW setting *shrug*). Other traits aren't nearly as useful in AW it seems to me.

OK, I will be happy with Persia. I don't think religous is that big in AW as there won't be anytime we won't be fighting. I see us going to Monarchy and staying. A late steal of the GL would be a good thing. We probably need the Scientific if we wnat to even stay close.

Let Todd have it. My deity experience just isn't good enough.

4000 BC - We move one square nw to avoid being 1 square from the coast.
We will have a high food square in the second ring of the capital.
I also want to put the goody hut immediately, and by starting the capital here we get burial. :)

3700 BC - Based on our map position I suspect everything south of us is empty, so I send warrior #1 that way to explore.

3550 BC - We gamble on the next hut and simply get $25.

3450 BC - I have no idea why the frelling governor tried to hire a clown. Something must be screwed with the preferences.

3200 BC (I) - I have very difficult tech choice - it appears we on an island. Do I go for immediate writing, or warrior code? We will probably be found first, so I go with archers. I hope this isn't :smoke:


Summary - This is a very weird start. We are isolated on our own island. This pretty much insures that we don't die real early, but we have a high danger of falling way behind in the tech race. On the other hand, we get enough time to get barracks and some troops built before the war starts.

Signed up:
LKendter
Cartouche Bee (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)
Meldor
ToddMarshall


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-3000BC.zip

The proposed dot map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-290.jpg

Yellow arrows - Land ho. This is the way off the island.

White dot -
The goal of this city is to hide a galley.
The galley can move out one, and land troop on the landmass above it, and return to safety.
In addition, with the cattle is will have decent productivity.

Black dot -
This city gets furs within our borders,
There are whales that you can barely see to the left.
It will be pretty productive.

Yellow dot -
It has 2 wheat tiles. Do I need to say more?

Blue dot -
Junk city, but we must use every square.

Green line -
This is the early irrigation path to get all those plains useful.

Gray dot -
Count all of the bonus tiles!

Pink dot -
We just need some of the forest to clear to bonus grasslands
In addition, I won't argue with the tundra game.

Pale Green -
These are simply a couple of fishing villages.

Okay! Here's the game plan I'd use:

Beeline research to Monarchy right away. We can likely get that before any AI does, since they prioritize Polytheism very low and Monarchy pretty low as well. Then, when we meet civs we can trade into tech parity what should be pretty easily. We can also avoid Immortal action until we get into Monarchy, and get MAXIMUM use out of our Golden Age.

I just did that in my Epic 20 shadow over on RBCiv. Started on my own island, and I had Monarchy before any other civ had even Polytheism. (I built the Great Library in that game, but it would've been an easy trade to tech parity if I hadn't.)

BTW, the game hires a clown if the city grows on the same turn that its borders expand. A city's first border expansion triggers the game to auto-optimize the city, and since the city has no happiness factors, it makes the second citizen an entertainer. (You DO get the auto-picked-shields from the new citizen on that turn - the cultural expansion and entertainer happens after that, so it doesn't hurt anything.)

I actually like the Monarchy plan. One big advantage is we get our revolution over before dealing with other civ at a high level. In addition, it does solve the problem I hate with earlier UU and getting stuck with a despotism GA. Warrior code turns out to be a smart move, and I didn't even realize it.

@T-hawk - any comments on the dot map? I spent 15 minutes on it, but it still could have some weed.

@All - Do we try a daring plan and start gray dot and immediately tray for colossus? The extra revenue that lasts until flight will be a huge boast to our income, and gray dot has the shields to pull it off. We are in military danger for at least 50 to 75 turns.

2950 BC
Boost lux up to 20% since the capitol just grew. Granary will finish in 4 now and grow in 5. I'll start a warrior back home to help with the next growth cycle. Will run one warrior around the horn to we can see as much as possible.

2900BC
Rushing the granary will not serve any purpose so I just let things proceed naturally.

2850BC
Rather than chop a forest to help us pull a settler 2 turns quicker I go for mining a BG square for a longer term improvement and

2800BC
Warrior gets home so lux 0%.

2750BC
Persepolis granary->settler

2710BC
Lux 10% due to city growth.

2670BC
mm back to food cause the BG is now mined.

2630BC
zz

2590BC
Persepolis settler->settler lux 0%

2550BC
zz

The suggested monarchy path looks pretty good to me also.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-2550BC.SAV

LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk (currently playing)
Makes the decision if we try for the big cash bonus of colossus.

Meldor (on deck)
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I already sent the first settler to the yellow dot for the food boost. The grey dot city is definitely a shield bonanza, if we miss colossus we should be able to cascade to something else useful.

I agree on the colossus being a good thing to try for as well as the monarchy beeline.

Grey dot is definately the next priority, followed by pink dot. Black and white dot aren't going to do us a whole lot of good until we get some of that forest choped and some irrigation up there.

It looks like an ok dotmap to me. Starting on this island might make things more difficult in the long run, or it could be easier depending on how many civs we find on that rock accross the strait from us and how far ahead of us they are....

I don't remember posting my version of AW rules.
On first contact trading is allowed provide it is all done up front - NO gpt, resources of luxuries may be given or asked for.
After that, war must begin at the end of the diplomatic meeting.
Acquiring maps is highly recommended, but giving away our own is crazy.

Being allowed to trade will make a big difference especially with our route to monarchy. However, monarchy is pretty expensive and I suggest we take the 40 turn route to get to it. That will provide us with the gold we will require to upgrade our warriors. Depending on how the contacts work we could maybe get ready to leave the ancient age as we meet all the AI.

In PTW it is frequent to have contacts sold by the AI, I assume that we don't have to declare war until we at least make a diplomatic contact?

I see it, can play late tonight.

Your rules are to declare war by the end of the initial diplomatic meeting? The original AW rules were to declare by the end of the turn, which is what I was counting on to be able to broker around to reach tech parity before declaring war. We can go by your rules; thanks for clarifying.

I actually didn't see the dotmap there because I was in a rush and had images off in my browser :crazyeye: The north end looks good. Here's what I'd do with the south end: move pink one NW to pull in more water. Move both pale greens one SW. Put an additional city S-S from where you have pink dot right now, and put one more additional city S-S-SE from gray dot (that will get the game tile that new pink dot won't.) Remember in Monarchy that more cities = more unit support.

Do we want to try to build the Forbidden Palace on our island, or should we rush it on another continent with our first Great Leader?

Grey dot has a giant neon "Build Wonder Here" sign hanging on it. :) I'm not sure which one though. The Pyramids might even be worthwhile if we can get them - if you read the Epic 24 results over at RBCiv, they turn out to be very very useful even on a small island like this. I'd probably choose the Pyramids over the Colossus, though neither is a bad idea.

I checked my rules from LK35. I was playing more as you quoted.


I never posted the always war rules we are playing under:
During first contact you may trade provided no gpt commitments. (also resources, and luxuries).
Before ending the turn, war must be declared.


Your thoughts were correct. Of course, I have never been in a broker situation before.

========================

All of our cities are within ~10 squares of the capital, so the palace will be sufficient for the distance calculation with corruption. I really think the fp will need to be leader rushed on the new landmass provided it has decent size.

The below is the revised T-Hawk dot map.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-291.jpg

It does gain more cities, but we will have more weak production cities. The unit support help will be good, but when cavalry arrive this cities will be useless for troop production.

Shouldn't the dark green dot over by the grey be moved down and right 2 squares?

Originally posted by T-hawk


Do we want to try to build the Forbidden Palace on our island, or should we rush it on another continent with our first Great Leader?


I think that will depend on how long we end up being trapped on the island. Sometimes hand building the FP can add enough of a boost to make it worth while, especially if it stands for 100 turns or more before the game opens up.

I think if Persepolis was at one end of the island, we'd try to build the FP in the middle (and relocate the Palace later). But with Percy close enough to the center, the FP can wait.

Green dot should be one SE of where you have it (on a forest.) It still reaches the game tile from there. Orange and green can still be useful as unit producers; they won't make a cavalry every 2 turns, but two cities at 4 turns each is just as good as one city every 2 turns. :) And don't undervalue them as economic cities - AW needs economic support, for unit costs, culture rushing, and so on.

Will still play later tonight. :)

The below is the hopefully correct revised T-Hawk dot map.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-292.jpg

Umm, Cartouche, you re-uploaded the 3000 BC save, instead of the 2550 BC save... please correct this problem :)

Uploaded the correct file and fixed the link.

[Edit:] My games are in date order, because of the time zones, I finished my turns before Lee posted his game. :lol: I'll watch for this in the future.

Ya had to make me search back up the thread instead of just posting the new link in that post, didn't ya... :rolleyes:

Anyways. Inherited turn:

We have to chop that forest square in order to get irrigation over to Yellow Dot's wheats. To that end, I change Persepolis to a worker on this turn. It's debatable, but I think it's a good idea.

2470 BC: Pasargadae founded on yellow dot. Note that this city can also reach Persepolis' game tile, and that Persepolis only needs that game tile on 2 out of every 3 turns, so it can be used by Pasargadae once every three turns.

2430: Warrior Code due in 1, science slider set to 40%. Max research on Mysticism ordered, due in 18 but that'll drop of course.

2230: Susa founded on Grey Dot.

Map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-2150bc.jpg

Our warrior has made quite a discovery: a cultural border across the water to the northeast. That city cannot see any squares on our landmass until that border expands TWICE. Note, though, if we build a city on white dot, it will see a tile on that landmass and probably make contact after only ONE border expansion.

I believe that color is Carthage - who don't prioritize culture but do start with a tech towards Map Making. So I think we should wait as long as possible before making that contact, which will be when they get a galley out - so DO NOT build any culture in White Dot.

Susa's building a wonder. As I said, I think we should go for the Pyramids. It's well worthwhile with eleven cities on our landmass; a better prize than the Colossus. Although almost any wonder that we can get will help us - it might even be the Hanging Gardens.

Our cities won't have much besides temples to build for a while, so let's get those going in all of them. Also build plenty of warriors; we'll want the full complement of three MP per city in Monarchy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-2150bc.zip

Also build plenty of warriors; we'll want the full complement of three MP per city in Monarchy.

Well lets me sure the are vets. We may want to do an upgrade to Immortals. Of course, we will need some cash. ;)
We may want a few archers in case we don't hard iron.

===============================


LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor (currently playing)
ToddMarshall (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I see it and will play this one before starting on LK39

Just a few other sides to the coins. ;)

We should be probably be trying to time our first contact with our discovery of Poly. That will likely be our most opportune time to make a decent trade, any delays from that point on will work more against us than for us. Waiting for a galley to come along so we make contact sounds kind of chancy, let's try and control first contact off that culture growth in the white dot city.

Lee is also right about vet units, sure a few regular MP's are fine but let's focus on vets. I don't like the archer idea though. If we don't have iron, our cities will be big enough to pop out archers pretty quick so I'd say skip them.

Now that the discussion drifted to temples cause that is pretty well all we can build, I think we should have thought about this more. Our best course may have been to go straight for Literature so we can could build libraries and the GL. I'm not a big fan of building temples in despo cause it cuts too much off potential income (using a temple to hook up 2 haystacks is a valid use of course), yes it helps with happiness, but you usually can't have all your cities at the same stage of development during the growth period to leverage that happiness in a way that is intended. Temples could cost us 10 turns in getting to monarchy.

Beelining to Monarchy will get us to that government much faster than first going to Literature. And the idea of going to Monarchy is to get some trade-bait to grab some or all of the techs that the AIs prioritize, when we meet them. I think we'll benefit more from getting into Monarchy rapidly than we would from the Great Library, although it is arguable. (It also isn't impossible that we could zero in on the GL and capture it soon into our warring phase.)

I still think we should delay that contact as long as we can, or at least until we have Monarchy to trade. If Carthage has any other contacts, they'll get well ahead of us in tech, and we'll want to have as much to trade as possible. If they don't, we still don't really lose anything by waiting.

My concern with waiting for monarchy is that it's about 80 turns away and the AI will be trading and popping huts during that time. That also means that we have to wait 80 turns or so before we can even get UU off the ground and build galley's. But we should stick to the plan we started, floundering around is the worst thing we could do. Besides, if we are waiting for contact by galley, it will have nothing to do with us having a temple up there. ;)

Drat, this Game is full :(.

2150 BC (Pre-turn)
Nothing, I do notice that will need an mp in Susa and the warrior in the north won't reach it in time.
(I) Persepolis grows.

2110 BC (1)
Adjusts taxes to 2.7,1, both for positive treasury flow and to keep Persepolis from rioting. The warrior begins a trek south.
(I) Persepolis builds a settler and starts another.

2070 BC (2)
Settler starts on the way, I will go for the blue dot first to get the furs inside our borders and online. Drop taxes to 2.8.0
(I) Pasargadae grows.

2030 BC (3)
I have to set the taxes back to 0.7.3, man that new guy in there is nasty.
(I)

1990 BC (3)
Warrior and settler movement.
(I)Nada.

1950 BC (5)
Rinse and repeat.
(I) Not too much.

1910 BC (6)
Warrior makes it to Pasargadae and we can drop the taxes to 2.8.0. Arbela founded to get the furs, starts a worker.
(I)

1870 BC (7)
Fortify warrior in Pasargadae.
(I) Persepolis builds a settler and Pasargadae grows. Susa grows as well.

1830 BC (8)
Whip the temple in Pasargadae as it has exactly 20 shields left. The settler heads for the white dot. Taxes get adjusted yet again to 0.7.3
(I) Pasargadae finishes its temple and starts a warrior.

1790 BC (9)
Move taxes to 5.2.3 with Mystyism due in 1 still. Pull one warrior from Pasargadae and send it towards Susa to help drop lux tax.
(I) Furs come on line! Drop taxes to 0.9.1 with Poly due in 33 at -2. We can't keep that level for more than 4 turns though.

1750 BC (10)
Settler movement. Warrior gets to Susa and taxes drop to 1.9.0 at -2gpt.

The settler is current on the spot for the black dot, I was going to go for the white dot with it. After getting the furs online, one worker is furthering the irrigation path and the other is retreating back to Susa.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1750bc.zip)

LKendter (on deck)
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor
ToddMarshall (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

I got it. Will most likely be able to play tonite.

Edit: this project is taking longer than expected. It may be tomorrow before I get it played :(

Inherrited Turn.

The thought occurs to me that we are going to get discovered up at white dot by somone founding a city out on that peninsula with the kinda luck I usually have (assuming thats the same landmass Carthage is on), but I also don't see any alternative but to take that chance because good city sites are at a premium for us. If black dot was really a good city site, I'd found it with the settler now, but it just wont be much good till we get out of despotisim I'm afraid. The only other immidiately decent site would seem to be pink dot so I'll send the next settler there.

I start thinking about what roll each city should have for us. The capital is clearly settler producer #1 with the game and grainery, and Sussa will be tied up with a wonder for quite some time. Arbela looks like someting of a long term fishing project, which leaves Parsagarde.....

This city could do a number of things when its boarders expand in a minute. It will be pulling in 5 surplus food with that other wheat in range, so it will grow every 4 turns, making it nice for auxilary settler production or for worker prodction.

I'm struck with the idea that clearing 5fpt/5spt it could alternate between warrior and worker every 2 turns and still keep comerce up by staying size 4-5 or 5-6 depending on lux tax level needed. Ordnarily, this is NOT something I'd want a 2nd city doing, but, what else are we going to do with it till we get access to libraries/markets/acquaducts 70 some turns from now?? And we do want to have vet warriors building soon so we can upgrade them to immortals right?? I figure this is where we want our first Rax and fairly soon, but in the mean time its suffering a whip penalty so ...

Parsagarde swaps from warrior to worker, due in 3 when it is set to grow, and Arbela swaps from worker to warrior (to go MP at Arbela). This should save us several turns of needing to run a tax, letting it grow to that point closer to the same time our wonder city does, and that 2nd guy at arbela can work a coast giving us a coin till irrigation gets through. Not much help I agree but better than nothing. MM percy off the game to the mined BG for 1 turn since the 2 food would go to waste otherwise.

[1] Percy grows - Our treasury is running dangerously low :p - Move worker, Move settler toward white dot. only bleeding 1gpt now for a few turns.

[2] Worker #2 has finished irrigating- I wrestle with wether I should start him on the great irrigate to white dot project or chop that forest at "junk city"blue dot and irrigate the plains there first. While white dot may be the better city long term, I think blue dot is actually a decent city for us till we get aquaducts and wont take nearly so long to get it up to snuff, so i go for the forest chop at blue dot. Also, that new worker due next turn at parsagarde will be available to help the great irrigation project after it improves the 2nd wheat square. Worker #1 starts mining at our wonder city.

[3] Boarders expand at Parsagarde.
Parsagarde Worker -> Barracks
MM Percy off the game tile to the lake tile for two turns as it will grow to size 4 next turn and pull the game in and we can use the 2 coins, whereas extra sheilds wont speed the settler. This wont waste food and the settler will still be done in 2
The Settler reaches White Dot.
The new worker heads over to our newly in range wheat. Time to wrestle with a decision again. Do I irrigate the wheat or mine it..... :hmm: 6fpt isn't really any better than 5fpt, but we could work a forest square then and be at 5fpt when we grow..... If aquaducts weren't so far off, this would be a no brainer to irrigate it but with it caped at size 6, and with the idea of it only needing 5spt/5fpt to do the warrior/worker shuffle, I decide to mine the wheat. It would be a simple 2 turn reversal later when we can actually grow that city or build actual projects in it.

[4] Antioch founded on white dot, starts a warrior.
Mining of the wheat square begins. Hope this odd move isnt :smoke:

[5] Percy Settler -> Settler
The settler heads for Pink dot.

[6]Arbela grows to size 2
Arbela warrior -> Worker - Since I notice the forest chop will complete on the IT and there are no shileds in the box, it really wont waste anything and we could use one more worker.
Treasury drops to 1g and -2gpt, so I back off to 80%, which will chew up the last coin, then we'll have to back off further it looks like.
Warrior heads over to MP at Parsagarde.
More game tile MMing at the capital.

[7] Arbela Worker -> Temple
Parsagared Grows to size 4 but is ok because of the just arrived warrior who fortifies there.
Treasury stabalizes at 0g and 0gpt at 80% science.

[8] Sussa grows. Shows Pyramids in 56.
Income now 1gpt at 80% science. Settler reaches Pink Dot.

[9] Atioch Warrior -> Barracks (Can't build a temple here so.....)
Worker moves to start mining the irrigated BG near Parsagarde, this will let that city get 5spt/fpt at size 4, and if we work a couple roaded grasslands can go from 6-5 and generate a couple extra coins.
It would also be possible to let it grow up to size 6 and make vet spears (later immortals) every other turn by working some of those forest tiles if we chose.
Tarsus Founded on Pink dot, starts on a warrior.

BT - Boarders expand over in Carthage..... ummmmmm, Gee, our capital's boarder is about to expand at the same time. Could that be Carthage city we are looking at? I hope so. Maybe they will build a nice wonder there for us :lol:

[10] Workers finsih irrigating and roading the plains at Arbela, and are ready to start working over to white dot. One worker mining the affore mentioned irrigated BG near Parsagarde, annother worker mining near Sussa, having previously roaded there to speed our settlers toward Purple and North Lime Dot.

Notes.

Make sure to MM the heck out of the Capital. I think I changed which tiles it used almost every turn. We could actually use a road there on one of those BG's that gets used every so often (actually, I think this is the first time that tile was needed, so we lose one coin, not a big deal, but they could start adding up)

Parsagarde is going to grow itself unhappy next turn. It still has 8-9 turns of whip unhappyness, so it wont be happy at size 5 till the end of Lee's turn. I checked, 10% lux will only cost 2 coins atm. One from Persepolis and one from Parsagarde, so that is fortunate. The bad news is this means Poly will take longer than the 18 it is showing because we will have to cut back on science :(.

The workers up at Arbela - One needs to stop and mine that irrigated fur. That ammounts to a BG square. We are losing its one shield to corruption, but the 2nd wont be lost, so its a double production thing. the other worker could move one square SW and build a road. both would complete the same turn then they could irrigate, go chop that forest and irrigate over to white dot togeather. That project could just about reach the cow by the end of Lee's turn.

We could probably use a couple more workers still, though with most of our cities stuck at size 6 for a long time, and with our industriousness, we probably dont need a huge pile of them for a while. I'd suggest drafting the rest of our workers off of Parsagarde and later Persepolis which is going to present a problem in that we may end up taxing our brains out to keep it working or arresting it's growth to prevent that. Every other city will be fine to size 5 with a temple and 2mp, or later to size 6 with 3 at monarchy.

F11 shows we are doing pretty well. First in most categories, 2nd in every other important categry except Anual income where we are 3rd (lack of rivers :().

Sussa is going to need annother MP unit within 8 turns. Not sure where the best place to make that is, Probably Parsagarde when the Rax finishes in 5.

I held off settling Black dot because I was afraid that would affect corruption level too negatively all over heck because it would be THE closest city to the capital. It really has nothing but trash squares to work at the moment anyway. It will be a good city eventually, but might do more harm than good in the short run.

GL on your 10 Lee

-Maniac

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1500BC.sav

Nice set of turns Todd, I like the idea to improve the fishing village and mine the extra haystack.

If Parsagarde could produce 2 of the remaining settlers that will allow the capitol to start growing to it's potential alot earlier. Since the capitol is the only city that can grow beyond size 6 until we get construction it could help quite abit with our current primary goal, getting to monarchy. With Parsagarde starting to go unhappy from growth is a signal that we should use it for something that lowers it's size so we can keep our research as high as possible. I'd switch it off the rax and go settler.

The capitol could easily pop out another MP after it finishes the current settler and actually enhance it's remaining settler production.

Personally, at this point, I'd be producing workers in all the cities outside the 3 core cities (at least one round of workers anyway). I'd at least add one of those workers (from Arbela) to Susa to speed it's growth. The other 2 have obvious projects to work on.

I'd also really consider changing from Pyramids to Colossus. We have no river systems so we need trade and the old adage that "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" may apply here. I'm a strong proponent of the Pyramids but I think in this game we just have to "take' what we can get and the boost in commerce would enhance our progress to monarchy.

:rolleyes: I start a couple new games, just to get feast overload :rolleyes:

I don't know if I will get to this one to Tuesday.

Playing order
GOTM#17 (deadline is today)
RBP8
LK43 (if good save)
LK44

One more note, since we are hoping not to meet anyone until we have monarchy, our core cities could produce 3 veteran warriors per turn by then so let's not get too worried about vet units until expansion is done. If we have to, we can replace regulars with vets if we are out producing our requirements. :) Any cities that build structures that we don't need right now, will just drag our science production down.

On the idea of switching off rax to settler..... I considered that myself, but I really thought we'd want some vet troops before someone declares war on us :lol:. It is a tough call, and either way may be better.

Actually, settler probably IS the way to go now that I think harder on it simply because in 8-9 turns it would be able to grow the size larger hapily, and 8 turns is the ammount of time it will take to grow back to size 5. This would mean we only need to run the tax 1 turn as well. I would, however, only make the ONE settler from it, not 2. I would then make the rax. We can chop one of those forests to speed the rax which should then arrive about the time it regrows to size 5. Then we can make our workers from there, alternating with vet warriors for upgrade since we have NOTHING else structural to make there other than walls or grainery for a long time, and I doubit either is a priority for that city.

We only have 5 more dots to fill in. Orange, Purple, Black, and the Lime twins. Percy will pop a settler in 1, and Parsagarde would in 2 if we switch, meaning we would only need 3 more. I'm not worried about the capital regrowing fast enough, it grows every 3 turns, so it would recover quickly when it is done with settler prod.

I also considered the warrior from the capital. I'm not sure it will really speed the settler curve much though as that city is producing them at a good (not GREAT, but good) clip of every 6 turns with proper MM, which is the exact ammount of time it takes to grow twice and replace the citizens. Making the mp unit there does seem to be the only alternative though.

As for producing workers in our 3 smaller cities..... I don't like that idea. All are 2fpt and size 1. I'd like to let them grow up and be pulling in some commerce we desperately need. Those are the places I would be considering merging workers in. I highly reccomend the vet warrior/worker shuffle from Parsagarde.

The call on to merge or not to merge in wonder city is a toughie. I really think we need the 4 workers we have now as a minimum, but, hard to say.

I also reccomend the Colossus (due in 20 if we go for it) fwiw. I think we will be extremely straped for coins, and with us stuck at size 6 for a long time with no rivers or , at least for a goodly while, harbors I'm :(. I really hope 5 or 6 of the AI arent grouped togeather on a "super continent" or this could get ugly.

-Maniac

Edit: @CB - Good point on the unneeded structures, however I dont think one barracks in Parsagarde is a major concern. The temple in Arbela will actually pay for itself by pulling in a whale, so we DO want to build that one for sure.

I would have to agree with the Colossus instead of the Pyramids at this point. I don't think we need the extra growth ability until after we get hospitals. Right now we may have problems with our cities growing too fast.

Our first expansion into the other land mass is going to have to have a goal of securing more resources. On the other AW games we have had, we have been able (lucky) to start with several resources within easy reach. It is not the case for this one. Couple with that the fact that we are island bound and we went for Monarchy directly, puts us in a bind for happiness. Extra commerce = extra research/bigger forces. This is the first game in a long time that I have had to worry about every piece of gold.

I would even say we might be better short term with the Great Library as well. It would allow us to trun off our research and then use the gold for other purposes.

A couple of questions for Lee. Do we have to declare war at the end of negotiations or at the end of the turn? This could be a huge deal. The second would allow us to buy contact with a second civ in hopes of pulling in more for any exclusive techs we may have before the first one can sell them around.

Also, are we allowed to build walls? If we are then we should be careful to destroy them after the city goes above size 7.

Annother interisting tidbit is that revolting to monarchy isn't going to help our gpt at all for a long time, in fact, it could actually hurt it because we would LOSE 20gpt worth of free support with 11 cities stuck at size 6. With a centrally located capital, and no squares other than the 6 furs and 2 whales capable of generating more than 2gpt we'll be hard pressed to make up for that 14gpt diffrence in corruption savings, and even if we did, wouldn't be by much. I really think going for Poly at best was :smoke: on our part now. We should have gone for it at 40 and hoped. I'm starting to think we should have taken that jungle wasteland with a river start :rolleyes: (OK, it isnt THAT bad, but it's close. Thank god the AI sucks at naval invasions, we need EVERY advantage we can find right now). Maybe Carthage will be nice and build the GL for us in that city we see.

This may have gotten lost, so a repeat of the contact rules.

I never posted the always war rules we are playing under:
During first contact you may trade provided no gpt commitments. (also resources, and luxuries).
Before ending the turn, war must be declared.

:)

Todd I still stand by my reasoning after your thoughts simply because if focuses on actual needs right now. We would be done the expansion phase in about 14 turns from now rather than 20 turns from now. Building the temple 10 turns later won't make much difference and maybe we would cull a worker from Pars. later to make it up.

Bulking up Susa will get the wonder quicker and that gets what we really want on line quicker and safer, time wise. We need to do everything to make the run to Monarchy pay off for us, I think going full steam for it is our best chance so let's do it. Once we have monarchy our research rate on all the techs that we have passed up would be real quick if we don't meet the AI in time to make a trade.

@meldor. It was my understanding that war had to be declared by the end of the turn, LK relented on his first post on this after checking his notes [Edit: Lee beat me.]. The luxs suck, these islands with one lux are a real downer. Guess we just have to go get some. :)

If we add the worker now, we are going to have to raise taxes..... However, IF we switch to Colosus, send a warrior over from the capital now (it doesn't need the mp yet and can wait till it builds one to replace the one sent), let the worker finish his mine (2 more turns and needed for when it grows again really) then yes, it would more than pay for itself.

Todd, on the capitol, after producing a MP you would mm to the lake for food and commerce, rather than mm to a BG for a shield. :)

One thing in our favor, we stand a chance of having both iron and horse. If we miss one or the other it could get really nasty until we can get a perminant foothold on the mainland.

Yes. Didn't say it wouldn't help, just it wouldnt produce the settlers faster :p. The lake has been used more than once by me allready, though it would get a bit more use a size larger. And yes, I did say quite a while back the capital mp was good, so far back it was in my original post that that was the best (really only) place to make it :lol:. After counting ahead a bit, you are also right on making the 2nd settler from parsagarde, THEN the rax being careful to get a properly timed forest chop in there to help.

I'll even give you the worker from pink dot simply because there are no roads or spare workers in the area, and if we merge one into wonder city, won't be for ages otherwise, but I can't see any logical reason to veto the temple up at Arbela. That will probably be our 4th strongest city for a while if we get that whale on line. It won't be any worse than up at white dot at least.

I think everyone has been brain washed by the core ads. :lol: [just kidding]

It's almost always better to ensure that your core cites are looked after before getting your outer cites into the infrastructure loop. We know we lack sufficient workers, you have even suggested that another road by the capitol would have helped. Those roads that we need will get the settlers out faster and those cities hooked up to the core quicker. Yes, that city will be one of our better cities compared to those in the far south but that city is far enough out that it will need a courthouse to unlock it's potential and that's a ways off. Go for inner strength first and everything else will fall into place when it's time comes, if not by shields then by cash.

Serve the core! :lol:

Wow, you guys talk a lot.. :yeah:

Wonder: The Pyramids will generate us more cash in the medium-long term than the Colossus will. Why is because of the number of fishing villages we're going to have. The Pyramids get them up to size twice as fast as they would by themselves, getting us more cash in the medium term. And the Pyramids save maintenance cost on all the granaries, which is about as much commerce as the Colossus will actually generate in the long term.

What's our current time to Polytheism? We can still back off and run minimum research, without losing more than 8 or so turns. And then we'd probably make back 4-5 of those turns by running deficit research on Monarchy.

Growing the capital won't help all that much towards researching Monarchy. It can only get one extra commerce per extra citizen - and that commerce will have to go to lux tax more often than not.

I'm still in favor of getting all the settlers out as fast as we can - have Pasargadae help too - and then the Pyramids will help them all develop quite well, getting us quite a stronger empire in the medium term, as we're getting ready to go to war.

Also, Marshall - Monarchy won't hurt our economy any more than despotism. Lifting of the tile restrictions and getting out from under the steeper corruption penalty will make up for the loss of some free unit support.

I do admit that the Monarchy run is a gamble, in how much we'll be able to trade it for. It could pay off nothing at all, or it could pay off even better than having the Great Library.

It's all about the growth curve, and both Monarchy and the Pyramids set us up for future development significantly better than the other options.

Ugh, lets not turn down research and hope we can make it up later, what do we need the cash for right now?

We are a growing civ and every time we grow and expand that research number goes down. Just cause you start research and it starts off saying something like 38 or 40 turns to complete does not mean that it will really take that long, keep pouring science beakers into the pot and we will get poly and then monarchy ASAP.

Your right about the pyramids and all it's benefits but can we be sure that some other civ won't build it by 500BC (on Emp. seems to me that this usually falls in the 800BC range so that's why I'm nervous about this). For all we know we might be still able to get the Great Library and/or the Hanging Gardens if we take Colossus. Then take the pyramids by force later maybe on a bigger continent. :) Colossus will shave a number of turns off our run to monarchy, it's alot more expensive to research than Poly so if we are having trouble with Poly then it's going to be tougher for monarchy. We do reduce the gamble going for monarchy if we really go after it as hard as we can.

It would be the pits to lose the race for the pyramids and monarchy; then where do we stand? We would be left with an FP and about 10 techs behind the AI.

Good points.

When I get a chance, which is later tonight, I'm going to try some serious math on the Monarchy beaker cost and see how much the Colossus will actually help us there. If we're going to be stuck at 40 turns to Monarchy no matter what, don't go for it; but if the Colossus will accelerate the governmental tech from 35 turns to 30, I think we should take the commerce wonder. As you point out, we can also start a second wonder and try for the Great Library.

As for the FP, remember we need 8 cities to build it, so keep those settlers pumping; Persepolis shouldn't stop doing that until we have all 11 cities founded :)

Good, maybe make an estimate for how long it will take Susa to produce the next wonder too, based on being size 6. That city could just finish up Colossus and then do a temple and then back to wonder production.

This is why we talk, not that someone else is wrong but to trigger new ways to tackle old problems. :)

Susa's easy: thirteen shields per turn before corruption, ten or eleven after, is 36-40 turns to a 400-shield wonder. Also, if it builds the Colossus it won't need a temple, since the Colossus commerce will give it extra happiness from lux tax.

I'm not at my Civ 3 computer right now so can't look at the save and the editor to do the math that I want.

Yeah, we talk a lot :lol:. I think we are pretty Infamous for itor getting that way. I'd guess Sussa will be 11 Shields after sihce its in a 3 way tie for 2nd closest to the core.

I DO think it will need a temple. It will only generate 14 coins when it is all done, if it loses 2-3 to corruption, thats 11-12 which at 10% tax is still only going to kick one over to happyness. I also think that is a good site to go for annother wonder, either the GL, or at worst, the Hanging Gardens. The GL is dubious that we could get it first, but the Gardens should be in the bag if we get Monarchy first. It would be nicer to have HG in the capital so it to grow to about size 8 with no tax and everywhere else could grow to 6 with none + temple, but I'm not sure how practical that is.

Yes, longer term, when the southern fishing area comes up to snuff, we will make the loss of unit support back from lower corruptiuon. That will be slow growing though :(. My comment was that we would be hard pressed initially to make it back (we probably would just), and for a while wouldnt be getting much extra income out of it.

We are committed to the full bore poly now, I would NOT back that off as we have cut probably 8-10 turns off it, but I'm pretty sure that Monarchy should be at 40. I dobit anything we do would shave more than 4-6 turns off it if that, and we really should have some cash available when we make contact.

My thinking is if Cartage has contacts and we can buy them, the first row techs will be cheaper to buy, letting us get progressively better value from trade of our government @ monoply tech. If we can buy alphabet, writing and the wheel, it would make every other tech cept currency and construction available on first trade. If we meet him and we are broke, we end up with alphabet the wheel and iron working for monarchy.......

Well I lied on the player order. I am doing this before LK43.

I have a bit of information overload with all of the conversation.
I see the key points as:
1) Is the rush for Poly worth is? Absolutely as is finishes in 18 turns, rather then 30.
2) Persepolis is a micro-management nightmare - I agree.
3) Pyramids or Colossus - I actually vote for Pyramids. Take a look at LK42 and what a nightmare Carthage was with the growth factor of the Pyramids. The denial factor is worth considering and why I prefer the Pyramids. Susa has to hit size 12 for the Colossus to generate more cash then the Pyramids save us with 11 granaries.
4) Pasargadae is suffering from whip penalty, and it may be easier to switch to settler - I agree. It is due in 2 turns.
5) Add a worker to Susa to speed growth - in debate mode, as it gains an unimproved tile.
6) Avoid black dot to last, as it may corrupt Susa - I agree.

1500 BC (pre-turn) - No changes.
(I) We are light on workers, so Persepolis orders a worker up.

1475 BC - It seems weird to irrigate, to go back to mine. However, I do the plan for Arbela to get another shield now. Luxuries are back up for a turn.

1450 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1425 BC (I) - Back to settler production in Persepolis.

1400 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1375 BC - Gordium is built on the purple dot spot.

1350 BC - There are enough developed tiles and a 2nd mp, so I add the worker to Susa. It cuts 12 turns from the Pyramids ETA.

1325 BC - Wahoo, forest chop by Arbela reveals a bonus grassland tile.
Bactra is formed claiming the orange dot.
(I) The forbidden palace is offered.

1300 BC - The reporters take a day off.

1275 BC (I) - The first wonder completes in Salamanca, the Oracle. The Iroquois seem to build that one a lot. That was the biggest city we knew of, so we still have a wonder chance.

1250 BC - The reporters take a day off.

Summary - Well I hope T-Hawk as the answers on Monarchy at 40 turns, as Polytheism is just about complete.

Pasargadae has a barracks and can start produce vet warriors every two turns. At some point it should switch to a few spearman.

Cartouche Bee makes the final decision on the wonder, as we can get Colossus in 6 turns, or Pyramids in < 29 turns (after growth).


LKendter
Cartouche Bee (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)
Meldor
ToddMarshall

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1250BC.zip

I'll have the Monarchy numbers in about two hours, if Cartouche can wait that long (he's also got RBP8 to play :) )

I got it but I'll wait for the analysis before building a wonder.

I'm going to reverse my earlier comment about Monarchy at 40, I did some analasys and think we should just go for it at max if I can count straight, especially if we get the Colossus. I'm pretty sure T-Hawk's analasys will confirm that. Unless it looks hands down that the Pyramids is the better way to go, I'd favor the colossus and a run at a 2nd wonder. The tech pace probably isn't going tht fast. No one has Lit yet (still #1 at 0% from F11).

OK, downloading the save to start some math now.

OK. In the editor, Monarchy's cost is 24. That times the map size factor of 240/10, times the Emperor cost factor of 1.25, equals 720 beakers.

As a sanity check (to make sure I did that right) the cost of The Wheel is 4. Right now in the current game, if we were to set research to 30%, 7 beakers/turn, The Wheel would take us 18 turns; a total of 126 beakers or less. Monarchy costs 6 times as much as Wheel, so the 720 figure for Monarchy seems correct.

To get Monarchy in less than 40 turns, we would need to AVERAGE at least 720/40 = 18 beakers per turn. Our maximum sustainable science rate right now is 15, which the Colossus would increase to 18. Wow, is that close.

Researching Monarchy at max without the Colossus is not an option, at least.

1. Run Monarchy at the minimum, getting us the tech in 40 turns but also getting about 500 gold in the treasury. Either wonder can be built.

2. Run Monarchy at maximum. This would require the Colossus, after which we can go for another wonder. Monarchy would take us about 35 turns, considering that the Colossus still has 6-7 turns before it completes.

Also, by the way, I notice that the border we can see across land has expanded. That means we've got no more than 45 turns before contact is made. If we do not get Monarchy before making that contact, we lose out on a lot of trade potential.

Egads this is close. I can't make the call yet; I'll keep thinking about it after submitting this post.

That boarder expanded the same turn as our capital's did, making me wonder if that isn't capltal Carthage city. Maybe they'll build us a wonder with their industriouness. We can dream can't we?

Edit: didn't want to make annother post for this. Is anyone else getting that "Dieity Space Race" kinda feel atm? :lol:

I grabbed the 1500 BC save (beginning of Lee's turn) to take a look at that. That border had already expanded at that time, meaning we have no more than 35 turns before contact is made (unless that city is their capital and is currently at the 100-culture level.) Given that, we cannot reach Monarchy early enough to trade it to that civ. (Especially if they come by via galley sooner.)

Also, our max sustainable beaker production in 1500 BC was 14, and in 1250 BC is 15. Beaker production doesn't ramp up as quickly as one might think. It is NOT linearly related to population, thanks to the bites of corruption and lux tax.

So I think I'm in favor of going for Monarchy at the minimum to build up gold in the treasury for trading when we can. And in turn, I think I favor the Pyramids over the Colossus in Susa. The only argument in the Colossus' favor is that we may be able to build the Great Library after it. I'm sure Susa will not have time to build the Pyramids and then the GL.

But there is another way to try for the GL, and it's even faster than having Susa build the Colossus first: swap Pasargadae to a Palace prebuild right now. (That city can work a bunch of forests and also pull 10-11 shields.)

If I were soloing the game, I think that's what I'd do - Pyramids in Susa, Palace-for-GL in Pasargadae (we win this if there's no Pyramids-to-GL cascade), and Monarchy at minimum. It is very much up for debate, though.

Good information there Todd. Actually, in the 1500 BC save, the enemy city has expanded borders while Persepolis hasn't. But Persepolis was founded in 3950 BC, a turn later, and it expanded at the end of 1500 BC.

Consider that Carthage pays full price for temples, does not start with Ceremonial Burial, and does not prioritize culture. Also, if it is not their capital, the city would be founded one tile away from the coast, which the AI generally doesn't do. All the evidence points to the visible city being Carthage's capital.

Given that, the city already has the 100-culture level, and thus won't expand again for a long time. So assuming they don't get a galley (they are commercial, starting with Alphabet towards Map Making), we probably DO have enough time to research Monarchy at max (with the Colossus) before contact is made.

Help, I'm thinking and I can't shut up! :crazyeye:

I would still advocate minimum science on Monarchy. That still lets us take the more useful wonder (the Pyramids), and gives us a guaranteed few hundred cash to buy techs when contact is made, instead of an all-or-nothing risk on Monarchy. Also, we don't lose all our trade bait if a galley comes by and makes contact sooner. Minimum Monarchy still gets us the benefits of getting into the government soon (it's only a 5-8 turn difference between min and max) and the attendant Golden Age benefit. Finally, we COULD get the best of both worlds: several hundred cash AND the ability to trade Monarchy, if the contact is delayed long enough.

In short, there's a 5-8 turn window that if the contact comes then, we should have researched Monarchy at max. However, the contact is more likely to come before or after that window, in which case we will want to have done Monarchy at minimum.

Cartouche, got all that? :cool: :crazyeye:

I decide to pursue science with as much vigor as I can apply, while also trying to overcome the shortage of workers required to keep up developments. I decide to rescind all orders building barracks. Antioch is switched to temple even after the borders expand they only hit water, I mm it to a tax man to pay for the barracks in Pars, it increases the time to temple to 39 turns. I mm Arbela to a taxman to pay for the granary in the capitol, the only loss is food cause commerce and shields were corrupt. This allows me to raise the science rate to 70% with Poly in 6. Bactra is so corrupt that I switch it to work ocean and gain a science beaker. Switch it from warrior to walls. Tarsus and Gordium (build on wrong square, 2 tiles from Susa?)are switched to workers. I move the warrior out of Gordium to Susa. A worker from Susa back to the capitol.



Colossus built 1125. Any tax men are now changed to scientists.
Sidon founded 1125. Produces wealth and a scientist.
Tyre founded 1050. Starts a temple with assist from logging.

Monarchy is due in 21 turns.


I would say that barracks at the capitol and Pars can provide all the vet units that we can support. Ideally we would construct Sun Tzu to provide barracks in all the other cities but I leave those decisions to the next ruler. Now that we have passed the corner and are well on the way to Monarchy all the unorthodox situations should be reviewed to serve the next ruler.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-1000BC.SAV

Ouch - it looks like I misread the dot map :(

Let's hope the Colossus helps enough with revenue.

How quickly to we start a pre-build for the next wonder? Having done AW several times before, I know that the Great Library is a major plus. My vote is a palace pre-build as soon as viable in our wonder town.

In 2 turns it builds the temple and after that it is clear to pursue a wonder. yes, having the palace/FP to fall back onto in a cascade keeps it a safe gamble.

[Edit:] Skipping the temple will save about 7 towards the next wonder, going for the Great Library hard may be worth it. I suggest dropping that temple build and going for it. In just over 30 turns we have another wonder.

Originally posted by T-hawk

I would still advocate minimum science on Monarchy. That still lets us take the more useful wonder (the Pyramids), and gives us a guaranteed few hundred cash to buy techs when contact is made, instead of an all-or-nothing risk on Monarchy. Also, we don't lose all our trade bait if a galley comes by and makes contact sooner. Minimum Monarchy still gets us the benefits of getting into the government soon (it's only a 5-8 turn difference between min and max) and the attendant Golden Age benefit. Finally, we COULD get the best of both worlds: several hundred cash AND the ability to trade Monarchy, if the contact is delayed long enough.

In short, there's a 5-8 turn window that if the contact comes then, we should have researched Monarchy at max. However, the contact is more likely to come before or after that window, in which case we will want to have done Monarchy at minimum.

Cartouche, got all that? :cool: :crazyeye:

T-Hawk I played this after sleeping on it and I had not read this part of the post before playing.

Those are good points and I like the idea of being able to purchase cheap low rated techs and cash will allow for more flexible trading. Maybe we will get monarchy before we meet the others and still have some cash built up.

When we started the drive to Monarchy we decided to beeline to get the advantage of getting to our preferred government type, switching ASAP and being able to trade through to the end of ancient times off those techs on first contact. I hope it still works out that way.

If it turns out that we could have got the pyramids, I hope this move on my part does not lose the game for us. Hopefully the Great Library or Hanging Gardens will make up a bit for not getting the pyramids.

One thing that I find slightly off in the analysis is the fact that it is that the monetary difference between the two options assumed the cost savings of building a granary in every city. Without the pyramids, it is unlikely that we will build one in every city. Those fishing villages are fine but the addition of a granary won't make them that much more viable.

I like the Colossus mostly for the fact that I think it will get us more cash over time. In all of the AW games I have played, having the cash to rush buy one or two critical units can make a huge differnce.

Second, it seems we are more limited (with our push to monarchy) in just how much population we can get and it still be productive, lessening the benefits of the Pyramids. After we get the tech trades (hopefully) and the infrastructure to help. I think we will find this was the best choice.

I think that with our current position that control of luses will be more critical than which wonders we took. Hopefully Carthage will have some for us.

BTW, has anyone settled the pennisula to the north? I wonder if we could aim to get a settler and defense there asap. If no one has settled ther by now, maybe it isn't part of the main landmass and is a small island.

@Meldor - Nope, hasn't been settled, and you are probably right about it being an island because of that. I see that CB went full bore on Monarchy and that we can get it several turns faster than 40 would have gotten it so the Colossus may have been the best move anyway. If it turns out we could have gotten the Pyramids or library....... well, oh well. Being that this is AW and we have terrible happyness issues, the Wall and Gardens will also be of great benifit, and I'd bet we can secure one of those at worst.

I agree with your analasys on the fact we wouldn't build a grainery in some of those cities anyway, at least not in the tundra ones and with cities maxing out, we can allways skim off workrs and merge them. There isn't much point in ducts right now. We'd be chewing up most of our increased revenue to raise the lux rate. Once that city gets improvements (library/bank/uni/market) we may find this is a good thing, esp if we can manage to stack Newton's and CoP there.

It is debatable.
Pyramids = Great IF we didn't get beat to them, and the best option many turns down the road.
Library = Awsome IF we can get the tech in time to switch to it and survive a possible Pyramids cascade.
Colossus = Immdiate benifits, definatley buildable, and 2nd wonder (library/gardens/or even the wall (this is AW so even this wonder has value) may be possible. It is also a worthless wonder to capture in most cases as its going to be in a highly corrupt city most likely.

I would lay good odds that that city over there is Carthage, and because it is an industrius civ, id lay good odds on it building the pyramids or library for us. I'd say 50/50 it gets one of them. If it builds either, we get big benifits from capture. Garineries in all cities on THAT continent.... hopefully NOT annother island civ...., or free techs. Yeah, that is a wildly speculative gamble, but welcome to LK44 - this whole game is like a cross between a dieity space race and a trip to Vegas :lol:

Deciding which wonder is better is like picking which pony to play at the track. We just don't really know till the race is over. (That being said, I'm glad we took take the colossus to place :) )

Actually, I must have vastly underrated our future beaker-producing ability. We're producing 27 beakers now - almost double as when I did my analysis. Not sure where all that came from, but given that, Monarchy at max is the way to go. :goodjob:

meldor: Those fishing villages will get granaries if I'm in the game :D Growth every 20 turns without, or 10 turns with; a no-brainer in my book.


I got it, will fix these issues:

Swap Susa to a wonder now, absolutely. Lux tax isn't going to drop below 20% for a while, and Susa's happy enough right there at size 6. No temple needed.

And no specialists! Never slow city growth in the early game. Get Arbela and Antioch back to work, and get worker labor to them.

Since we passed on the Pyramids, all our decent cities will need to build granaries. Pasargadae can crank out workers nicely once it gets one, and Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, Susa will need them for growth. And Antioch is building the temple that we told it not to build because we want to delay the contact. Granary instead.

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the :smoke: :)

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the :smoke: :)

:) Going for that spearman in 3 instead of 4, I'm usually the food Nazi but these variant rules are getting me to go down other roads. :)

Inherited turn:

Who sold the barracks in Persepolis? The city has nothing else to build besides military (it doesn't need a temple for a while), and we'll want three MP for all our cities in Monarchy, and as Lee said they may as well be veterans. City swapped back to a barracks.

Pasargadae, Arbela, Antioch, Tyre, Tarsus, Gordium, Bactra swapped to granaries. Pasargade needs it to crank workers, and the others need it to grow.

Susa swapped to a Palace wonder prebuild.

All specialists fired. Raises Monarchy from 21 turns to 22. Pasargadae assigned to work the game tile for this turn.

Cartouche, I need to have a talk with you about worker management. "What Can Wait Must Wait." "Improve Good Tiles Immediately." Why's a worker mining a hill at Pasargadae? The city's got a ton of forests that produce just as many shields as a hill under despotism. It will help absolutely nothing until we get into Monarchy, 30 turns from now. Getting Antioch and Tyre off the ground here in despotism is more important. And there's a grassland square at Arbela OUTSIDE OUR BORDERS that got improved before one INSIDE our borders.

And there's a worker clearing a forest at Tarsus, when there's an unimproved grassland sitting right next to the city. The worker clearing the northern furs forest is correct, since we need to irrigate through that square to Antioch, although it should've been assisted by the other worker at Pasargadae.

========

Not much to report turn-by-turn, just micromanaging the cities.

I cleared Gordium's forest-game and got a line of irrigation to the tile so Gordium can grow at a decent rate. Do not mine over these tiles; they aren't needed in despotism (Persepolis is already at 10 shields/turn and more doesn't help much), and Persepolis and Tarsus at least will make use of the 3-food tiles in Monarchy.

Persepolis reached size 6 and 10 shields/turn. The pattern this city should follow is warrior, warrior, worker, producing the worker just on the turn of growth to size 7. (Or one spear or archer instead of the two warriors if you like.)

Irrigation reached Tyre and Antioch.

Pasargadae built a granary and can pump workers every two turns - I recommend having it continue to do that.

Susa's 400-shield Palace will complete in 23 turns; let's hope that we can actually get contact and Literature by then :)

Monarchy is now due in 13 turns, and this is SUSTAINABLE, unlike when Cartouche passed to me with it due in 21 but running -4 gold/turn. :) (Running that deficit then was good, though.)

========

A map for the onlookers:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750bc.jpg

Don't move Gordium; yeah, it's on the wrong site, but all it loses is a bunch of water that it probably wouldn't work until hospitals anyway.

Sardis and Sidon are on granaries; if we get Map Making before those complete, switch them to harbors. I would also recommend doing a switch-whip-switch for exactly 20 shields when each city hits size 2 (10 turns in Sidon, 14 in Sardis.) The reason is that the cities can't pull ANY food surplus at size 2, but they can at size 1, so we may as well turn the food into shields and have the city continue to pull food surplus.

Antioch probably wants to start a temple after this granary; it will then expand to have a tile on the other continent visible and probably make contact shortly after we get into Monarchy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750bc.zip

By the way, I peeked at F11 after posting that.

Despite Cartouche's best efforts, we are #1 in the world in population, GNP, manufactured goods, family size, and productivity!! :goodjob: :goodjob: [party] Although #5 in Land Area, and dead last in Military Service.

The capitol never had a barracks as far as I know it was settler factory. It now needs a temple in 3 turns, no?

If I hadn't taken the action I did, you would have inherited a turn with 40 gold in the bank and monarchy due in 37. The only reason that we work the squares or build different items is due to different objectives. There is frequently no right or wrong, it's the changing of directions that mess the outcome. Yes, I passed the game losing 4 gold per turn but the cities were growing, increasing income. Sustaining that pattern would have probably yielded monarchy in less than 10 at this point but 4 turns longer at this point probably won't make much difference if, and it's a big if without that temple to open the sights, we can make contact. The granaries in cities producing a single food surplus at this point seems rather a poor move to invest 60 shields on but should pay off by game end.

I thought Persepolis had a barracks when I peeked at the saves. My bad if it didn't.

No, it does not need a temple. It can stay at size 6 for some time and crank out military and workers for us. Which would you rather have right now: four police and two workers, or one temple? Easy choice for me :) And also, once we get into Monarchy the city can use a third police unit, so it does not need a temple until it hits size 8.

Losing money was the right thing when we had money, as I thought I did mention. I was just pointing out that we were no longer losing money.

And I said that the granaries in the fishing villages are probably harbor placeholders. If we don't get Map Making in time to change them; well, then they've got granaries and will grow twice as fast when they do get around to the harbors.

You know..... I disagree with the assessment on not building the Temple in wonder city. If it and the Capital had built temples, especially since almost everywhere else not completely growth challenged has or is, 20% lux would be un-necesary, simply 10% would be sufficient.

I realize the temple costs 1g maintenence so we are paying that g for happyness anyway, but the temple targets it to where it is needed. Also note, especially since we are building them all over elsewhere anyway and paying that g in some places that do NOT need it yet (though though some of this is for tile grabing, especially the Whales). Rather than having 20% pull one off possibly several cities at size 3 or 4 that dont need the happy tax and allready have or are going to soon have temples, I think those temples and 10% lux tax were a good long term investment.

I will capitulate to all the graineries except that one at the southernmost tip. I suspect that it is going to be extremely corrupt even with monarchy, and will likely need a grainery, harbor, court, and aquaduct, and maybe WLTKD to be worth much ever. I would have just built MP/workers out of it every 10 turns at least till we got a look at how monarchy affected our corruption level. Hopefully, I'm wrong on this guess.

Edit: Also at monarchy with 3MP we are likely to be running 10% everywhere to apease TWO cities that are just a temple short of us needing no tax.

Summary - This was fast turn around for the round. I just played yesterday, and could be on-deck by the end of the night.

Once some of these granaries are done, we really need to get troops going. This is AW, and I would hate to see an AI landing and watch a city get toasted. At some point we should start building some spearman to leave as permanent defense. The real question is when will we be strong enough to occupy some mountains to prevent annoying AI landings?


LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor (currently playing)
ToddMarshall (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

Soon enough, we'll have other larger cities that will need 20% lux anyway until they get a full complement of police and can build their own temples: Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, and Gordium. 10% lux only would have worked because we were so slow in getting those cities developed in the first place.

The bigger issue in Susa was speed. If building the temple ended up costing us the Great Library, we'd all be gnashing our teeth and rending our garments. :)

Shore blockade - good idea. I think we should position warriors on mountains, maybe hills too, when we start making contacts.

On the Library, true enough, that is a concern. Does anyone have Lit yet? If we aren't first in Lit rate someone has it and is going to cascade from the Pyramids, which would suck, but fwiw, the gardens and GW will still be worth getting.

MP, not too worried, we are cranking warriors rather quicklynow yes? But until we get ducts built, 10% was enough everywhere.

One born smiley, one lux smiley, 2mp smiley, one temple smiley, and one tax smiley = 6 now, and 0% or 7 at monarchy with the additional mp. I realize that in the long run after ducts we will need 20-30%, but thats a ways off yet.

I stayed the coarse. I stopped building workers when they started eating us out of house and gpt. I switch to building just spears in Persy and Pas. Their are two taxmen keeping a positive gpt for us, one in Persy and one in Gordium.

The Carthagians built the Pyramids for us in 730 BC across the water in Carthage. In 710 BC the Aztecs completed the Great Lighthouse in Tenochtitlan. Looking at F11, it looks like the Oracle is already built as well. I hope they didn't cascade beyond the Lighthouse.

Monarcy is due in 4 and we have a big 1gpt cash flow with 6g in the treasury. We should spend this all at once though.

The temple at Antioch is 13 turns away, but could be whipped if needed.

I was getting spears into every city and then maybe we should start disbanded those regular warriors in favor of spears. Maybe even build a few archers.

I moved workers to the south to road the forested and furred tundra to generate some more income.

Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-550bc.zip)

I got it. I'll play in a little bit.

Don't disband anything. Any spare unit we've got can pull police duty - we want 3/city total for all that - or do mountain invasion protection duty.

I never disband anything other than for occasional use in putting a shield in the box for rushing things in the industrial age, so no worries there. In case you are wondering, yes, I am playing, and have been for some time. The very fact I've been playing "for some time" should send up a warning flare that something has happened :p. Yes, we have contact. The game is afoot.

I may not finish this tonite as I am tired, but will finish it by tomorrow night. I will, however vindicate CB's decision to build the Colossus and max research Monarchy, as we got contact on the SAME turn we got Monarchy.

Well I hope not TOO much contact. ;)

To much contact will be brutal.

Originally posted by T-hawk ....meldor: Those fishing villages will get granaries if I'm in the game :D Growth every 20 turns without, or 10 turns with; a no-brainer in my book.[/B]Not so fast....in this game, limited as we are by luxes, it would have been better, IMO, to not pout the granaries in and have gone with building workers in Persy and Pas and joining them into the cities without the granaries. I left the granaries going, as to not rock the boat, but I think a lot of them are a waste. The cities with the great food production could supply the citizenry for those with less food and mroe corruption. Normally, you would only do this on a small scale, but limited as we are the granaries cost us more money thatn the potential benefits at this point in the game. As you are so fond of quoting "What can wait, should wait". We could have shaved off several turns of research on monarchy if we hadn't been paying for those granaries. I had to stop building workers because we couldn't afford them. I could have just as easily been shifting the extra pop to cities that could use it, and not bothered with the granaries. In fact, we should probably do this anyway, until we get to the point that we can afford to let the cities grow a lot bigger. To go much farther, we need markets and more lux captured. Until then use Persy and Pas as our granaries and let the others get ready to help us out faster.

OMG, the situation is much worse than what I'd hoped. We have about 1/3 less warriors than I expected, and why have we been neglecting Black Dot? That is the closest city to the capital. That city should be size 4 or 5 and have a temple and a rax by now. Oh, nevend, twas founded rather late. *sigh*

Persepolis is working an unroaded forest when a mined/roaded BG is available.....why?

Parsagarde is working an unroaded forest, doesnt need the one shiled (2nd lost to corruption), actually doesn't need EITHER shield since 7spt = 8spt for a 20 shield project, when 2 roaded tiles are available.... Commerce, we NEED commerce. MM the Parsagarde Sussa area to get the temple in 1 turn instead of 2 when it grows and pulls in that mined grass, while doing the same for the spear and still only working roaded tiles.

Not sure what we are doing at antioch. There is a plains there needing irrigation, yet 2 workers want to improve a 2nd hill first.

Tarsus needs 2 of its tiles mined, yet we are going to road a forest for more corrupt Gordium first.... well, no, at least one of the workers isn't :p

Actually Lee's misreading the dotmap for Gordium doesn't bother me, since in the short term this is a much better site for it than the original. Speaking of Gordium, it is running a tax man when it needs no specialist..... presumably a one turn get a coin thing since its in the +4 food situation?

Horrifically, we have 3 MP units NOWHERE, and some places don't even have 2, so yeah, 20% lux tax looks inevitable. If that Parsagarde Spear didn't have 8 shields in the box , it would be a warrior, but too much waste to swap now.

I play arround with the slider and there seems to be no way to get Monarchy in 2, since even losing 8gpt vs +1 gpt is still 3 turns. Looks like we'll get a nice "income" on the final turn of research.

OK, time to click next turn...... no, first time to pop rush 18 shields on that grainery in Sidon via Barracks.

[1} Persepolis Spear _> Warrior We NEED about 5 of these for MP/possible upgrade (well, thats what I thought at the time).
Arbela Temple _> Barracks
Tarsus Grainery _> Barracks
I decide this is enough rax going up for now, and swap Tyre to Temple to grab that Whale. I'm sure I'm going to hear screams of Weed, but I don't care. The extra commerce from the whale will pay for the Temple, and it can build the Rax next.

[2] Persepolis Warrior _> Spear
Parsagarde Spear _> Worker (I want to merge this guy into Tyre)
Monarchy due in 1, so I slide back to get the most i can..... which turns out to be 10 coins...... after seting up to survive the Anarchy w/o riots. Arbela is a problem because it will starve or riot....... looks like its going to lose some pop, what can i do?

[3] Monarchy comes in, and I revolt immediately. We draw a kind 4 turn Anarchy, meaning Arbela will NOT starve to the point of pop loss :)
Arbela Riots, but we cant help that, its riot or starve to death.
I send one of the workers over from That mine up by White Dot to irrigate that plains that annoyingly hasn't been irrigated yet and....... ummmmmmm.

WE HAVE CONTACT! OMFG, ON THE VERY TURN WE GET MONARCHY!!!

Carthage has a galley next to their capital (we think). Hannibal isnt in F4 yet, but there is NO point in delaying contact that I can see now that we have Monarchy, and He can see my worker next turn anyway.

Hannibal does NOT have Poly yet :). He DOES have something rather sweet though. Contact with India, Mongollia, and Azteca :)

The best I can wrangle out of him is
Polytheisim for Contact with Mongolia, TM, and all his 5 gold...... I hope we don't regret only having 16 gold to start these deals.

To Mongolia I trade Polytheisim for contact with Azteca and 7 gold.

To Azteca I trade Polytheisim for Contact with India and 10g

I want to buy Alphabit if at all possible but... GRRRRR not enough cash, so I do something crazy. Sorry Lee, but in this case, I can not see the value in not trading maps. Carthage is going to do that very soon anyway and show them a this way here sign to us, and once we get some kind of navy going everyone but the Aztecs (Lighthouse) has only one narrow crossing where they can pass thorugh, so we can kind of blockade that.

WM to Azteca for 29g

WM and 41g to India for Alphabet

TM to Mongolia for his last 7 gold (actually needed)

Polythieisim and 30g to India for The Wheel and Writing. Now we should be able to see who has every Ancient tech on the tree other than Currency, Construction, and Republic

Now the biggie :p Monarchy to India for Iron Working, HBR, CoL, Philosophy, Map Making, Mathematics, WM and 87 gold, leaving him 13 and us 90 (yes, we were down to 3 g). And thats all folks. I try to see if The Aztecs have an inflated WM with their Lighthouse, but nope, they only want 1g;.

No one has Currency or Construction, and only India had Math, so we are actually ahead, and most of these guys will now have to get Monarchy.

None of the AI has a trade route with anyone else, and only India even has a Harbor yet, so they can't trade lux :). They appear to each have only one kind hooked up, though a couple of them have a 2nd variety deep in jungle land they could get arround to someday.

The wonder screen is a beautiful sight. NO ONE (that we know of anyway) Is building ANY wonder since no one has a wonder tech.. Yep, thats right, NO ONE has Lit.

Furthermore, unless things are VERY diffrent over on the other Continent, the GL is in the Bag if we can research Lit before our Palace prebuild completes that is (we might actually have to slow the damn thing depending on how long it is to get Lit). I think we should go for ANNOTHER wonder now, perhaps the Hanging Gardens in the Capital (this SURE would help since that is our ONE growth city) or maybe we should build the Great Wall in Parsagarde with a palace prebuild???. I'm SURE we'd get that wonder if the other continent isn't ahead. If we can get the library and either of the other wonders, we have ourselves a nice little GA. What about Immortals you say? Umm, read on.

Only India has horses hooked up, and they do have iron sources they could hook up whenever they feel the urge. The Aztecs and And Mongols have no Horses I can find anywhere, and Carthge appears to have NEITHER Iron NOR Horses anywhere in their territory. There is one visable non owned Horse source on an island that India owns half of and is much closer to than any other civ. All this sounds fantastic doesn't it?

Well, guess what? In what has to be the WORST freeking distribution of Iron and Horses I have EVER seen on anything but a tiny 20% land pellago map, WE HAVE NEITHER IRON NOR HORSES EITHER. :argh:.

Btw Meldor, you were right, that Peninsula is NOT the same landmass as Carthage and the other Civs are on and I will bet you oney that settler is right now headed up there to claim a resource.

Oh, and we declare war. :lol: (ALMOST forgot to do this heh)

BT - An Indian galley sails into view behind the Carthage one. Presumably they plan to lose the race for whatever is on that island over there, or at least for the premium site.

[4] Worker stuff, Un Riot Arbela for a turn so we dont lose improvments. ZZZZZZZZ

[5]ACK. I missed the fact that Sardis was about to riot. Oh well, If your going to miss a riot, Anarchy is the time to do it :(. Actually, No, it needs to riot or starve, and it has no buildings, so it riots.
India starts building the Hanging Gardens in *chuckle* Lahore, a size 2 city with low growth. They are playing right into my hands.
Re riot Arbela :)

[6] Revolution ends and we emerge in Monarchy. Time to MM all those cities.

Our placeholder has 11 turns to go. We have 105 coins in the kitty. I start research on Literature, due in 9 at -14gpt.

I swap the Capital to the Hanging Gardens due in 25. Something tells me we can outbuild a size 2 city for it :) and good old Black Dot back to Barracks since I have a new plan for the capital. Antioch swaps to barracks as well, no need for a temple now (maybe a harbor would hae e better here, but since this is the closest city to the AI, I wanted a barracks first and for sure), and Parsagarde to Spear. Arbela swaps to Harbor so we have somewhere to build vet galleys.

[7] Merge two workers into Persepolis, gardens in 21. Lit due in 8 at -11gpt and 91 in the kitty... man, this is going to be CLOSE. Boring micromanagement in progress!

[8] Parsagarde Spear _> Spear.
The people love our new spearman so much they decide to flatten out that crappy land infront of our crappy palace
I think somone pulled Lit.... I can drop to 8 turns at only -5gpt now, which is goodo since the palace has 9 turns remaining. Check of F11 confirms. We are now #2 in literacy so one civ has Lit now, presumably India.
Shift MP from Sussa to Gordium to prevent riot.

[9}Antioch Barracks _> Spearman
Tyre Rax _> Spear.
India begins building The Great Wall...... In their Badass looking Capital. The one with rivers, A green cow, A Mined game, and several mined BG with a forest or 2 sprinkled in for good measure. No doubit who drew the long straw for a starting position this game. No way anyone else is getting that wonder but India.

[10] Parsagarde Spear _> Archer
Gordium Barracks _> Archer.

I left 2 workers unordered because it isnt really obvious what we want to do with them at this point. You have a choice of which city you want to help with them Lee.

Status:

Palace Prebuild has 7 turns remaining. We are currently showing Lit in 6 at -10gpt and 66g..... nothing like having a huge margin for error eh? Part of this is due to MMing for production this turn. We do need to get those forest squares roaded up soon for commerce. We MIGHT have to slow the prebuild a turn in order to get lit in time w/o going bankrupt, so keep an eye on this.

Hanging Gardens due in the capital in 18. Yes, the wonder combo will trigger our GA, but considering how long it might take to get iron, it seems like a good deal to me.

We have 13 Warriors, mostly regular, 11 Spears, and 8 workers.... really could do with a couple more of these. Perhaps we should skim one from Parsagarde. Gordium will be annother skim soon, and wo will wonder city when the wonder fishishes.

I just noticed The Aztecs have emerged in Republic..... maybe I should have "gifted" them Monarchy, to bad that though only now occurs. The other 2 AI still in Despotisim.

Our military is weak compared to our 2 closest neighbors, and average vs the other 2..... not the greatest sign, but we should be pumping units real quickly now since half the empire is on unit production.

Too tired to think of anything else atm. Good luck on your 10 Lee.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-350BC.sav

Here is a pic of what the locals are fond of refering to as "West Persia"

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK44-WestPersia.jpg

, WE HAVE NEITHER IRON NOR HORSES EITHER. :argh:.


I hope the title of LK44, 1.14 patch, AW suicide mission didn't jinx this game. We have to archer rush a Civ with 3pt defense units. I haven't looked at the game yet, but the report is bad news. We picked Persia for Immortals, yet we can't build them. :(

Although I agree we had no choice on the WM trade, our defense will be much more difficult.


Oh, I got it after SP5.

Well looks like we got a shot at 2 wonders that will really helps us. Great Library and Hanging Gardens(in the capitol, fits us well).

We have no iron or horses, we might have to rush to invention to upgrade archers to longbow. :lol:

So we will need alot of catapults(I hope this message gets through) to get off this island. Initially for defense and then to reduce costs/losses to wage war. Catapults are our best friends to decimate foreign galleys and plaster any foreign landing parties.

Yep, granaries before aqueducts in cities other than settler factories is a pretty common weed that goes around. Those kinds of moves can just suck your cash flow (especially on islands) to zip and leave you paralyzed.

Would have been nice to have temples and harbors in Antioch and Tyre to raise a fleet.

Let foray begin!

I couldnt agree more that we built too many graineries when we had other more pressing needs. At least the 3 southern cities got swaped out to harbors, which will help them grow just as much, though I'm sure the next thing they'll get is a grainery..... We got almost every city pined at size 6 now, or within a couple turns. I really capitulated on the barracks in Antioch vs the Harbor, but that is the most likely city to come under attack right away, and so I felt the barracks was a must. Hell, it needs a Harbor and walls too, but we won't likely get time for all that. At least we will have a partial answer to our happyness problem soon with the Gardens, and hopefully enough MP and temples we can drop this dredful tax.

Ordinrily I'm not a hguge fan of temples, but I feel like that was the hand we were dealt in this game and we should have played that.

On the plus side, at least we didnt have the 20 something warriors that I was expecting built. Fat lot of good those would do us since we couldnt upgrade them.

This is going to be a tough chore to to fight our way off the island while we have a window of opportunity. If that was anyone but Carthage or Greece over there with no iron/horses, we'd be in good shape. Nothing like the fun of an early Middle Age cat/Archer rush accross the ocean. If nothing else, we need to capture and fortfy Carthage for its pyramids, maybe building the FP over there.

At least we will get a GA for sure now. The capital SHOULD be able to crank a 20sheild unit per turn durring that :)

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
So we will need alot of catapults(I hope this message gets through) to get off this island. Initially for defense and then to reduce costs/losses to wage war. Catapults are our best friends to decimate foreign galleys and plaster any foreign landing parties.I would even set a city up to do nothing more than build them. In AW they are a huge unit. This is the unit that will allow us to hold off the larger forces set against us.

On the subject on the golden age:
It will occur earlier then you think. IIRC the colossus in industrious, so we only need the library for scientific.

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I agree with Cartouche Bee that we really need catapults to have a chance. I also agree with the people that we have TO many granaries and that they are killing our budget. At least some of them became harbors.

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The big thing we need to plan is how to get off this island. We are facing attack 2, defense 3 Carthage almost guaranteed a GA. The next neighbor is India who will have War Elephants. I am completely stumped how to go in this game at the long-term strategy level. I think we need to start a brainstorming session on game strategy.

I'm not that big a fan of temples either (lux are much better and we only have 1) but right now a temple and 3MP means a size 6 city needs no lux tax. With the hanging gargens it means we can free 11 MP's to the battle front.

The AI will go after soft targets with PTW, a lone warrior in a south city compared to cities with 3 units in the north will make them travel south.

If that happens we can turkey shoot them as they sail by with the catapults (if we have em). Then our galleys can go up against 1HP galleys instead of 3-4HP galleys.

@ Lee- I believe the Colossus is Expansionist, Commercial, and Religious.

Graineries = great when you have rivers or no commerce shortage, but, well, no point selling them now. We might even have a rax or 2 more than we should, but we are behind in units and I felt we needed them. We need a few more spears, then Galleys, cat's, and Archers. I'd like to see whats on that island that carthage grabed. If it is iron or horses, that should be our first target as it will be lightly defended most likely. If not, then we might just want to go after carthace city and get those pyraids.

Originally posted by LKendter
On the subject on the golden age:
It will occur earlier then you think. IIRC the colossus in industrious, so we only need the library for scientific.

Lurk mode off.
The Colossus is Expansionist, Commercial, and Religious, so you guys won't get your GA 'early'.
Tough break on the resources guys. I look forward to seeing how you pull this out. I have no doubt you will find a way though. :)
Lurk mode on.

Edit: Todd beat me. Oh well. (Slow typer):lol:

Lee, maybe you should rename this LK44- Attack of the killer no resourse needed units or who needs Immortals when you can build Archers, cats, and regular galleys. :lol:

I hope that the Aztecs are unable to contact the other continent till navigation, otherwise the tech pace will likely burry us as much as the lack of resources.

If you look at the map, when we started, I now wonder what would have happened if we had built 2 cities on the lake. That would have allowed us 2 cities that would not need aqueduct and a passage from one side of the island to the other.

I've started other civs like that (not with the island passage though) and you can get a pretty nice early build up going on. [Just a note for future games for starts to watch for when ICS 2 tile rule is not in effect.;)]

I think we go after Carthage first. Even with a golden age they won't be able to produce much. Looking at the map, I can't load the game right now, it looks like there is a nice two or three tile choke point between Carthage and India. If we could take that and build a defensive line, we should be able to easily take the rest of that pennisula without too much trouble. Of course it only gives us a lot of jungle, but if we leave enough of it open, the AIs will direct some of their efforts to filling it. I wish there was a river across there that we could stand behind, but this game has decided to make things more interesting. One thing that stands out is that Chittagong has iron.

Do we go for a lnding at Sabratha and push across to Chittagong, or do we go in at Leptis Magna and forge across to Hippo? Maybe, assualt Carthage itself and expand out, facing all comers?

Personally, I would assualt Sabratha and push to Chittagong. Drop pillagers off beween Leptis Magna and Calcutta to slow down the troops from the others and then land at Carthage and break their back. If the pillagers last, we might be able to use them to cut off the incoming troops and isolate Carthage, except by sea. However, the AI dosn't seem to use too many ships when they can get there in twice the time across land.