RBP8 - Culture Conquerors

Scenario: Achieve a 20k cultural victory, in a city that was captured (or ceded) from an opposing civilization.

Civilization: Zulu
Difficulty: Emperor
Map: Small, Pangaea, 30% land
Terrain: Wet, Warm (that's where the Zulu live)
Barbarians: Roaming
Victory: All enabled, but we are trying for our specific condition
Rules: All standard

Opponents: Culturally strong France, Egypt, India, Babylon; and England for Charis' edification. :)

Version: I'd like to keep it on 1.14, since that's what all of LKendter's and my other succession games are. Is this okay, Charis and Cartouche?

I'll play 30 turns to start, to verify that we have a workable game. (I already tried one start which put us on an island by ourselves - nice "pangaea".) Ten turns each after that, although we might go to 20 if at peace during the boring industrial age.

Roster:
T-hawk
Cartouche Bee
Skyfish
Charis
CivGeneral

VARIANT RULE: After our initial war in which we capture our 20k city, we may not make any military action in enemy territory. (We can continue the initial war as long as we want.) If a civ has a spaceship under construction, we may attack ONLY their capital, not any other cities.

If it's all right with you, I'll gladly join you as I can not play on 1.21. Also by a weird coincidence I always play after CB in the last SGs he was in, let's keep the tradition alive.
Also with such a strong roster you need a weaker player in there to add a bit of difficulty to the variant ;)

EDIT
ps : on the rules, we might need to attack our opponents but you could limit it to never wiping them out totally, just a quick idea need to think about it a bit more....

Originally posted by T-hawk


Version: I'd like to keep it on 1.14, since that's what all of LKendter's and my other succession games are. Is this okay, Charis and Cartouche?


I'm debating on a variant rule to limit our ability to conquer everybody and sandbag for our victory type. I'm also debating whether to leave space victory enabled, which might depend on the previous rule. Any ideas/opinions?

I'm fine with 1.14, I've got the change version thing down to about 10 seconds.

I think we should keep the space victory open since it is one of the victories that the AI will actually pursue, given the chance.

I'm not sure about what to do about getting into the situation where we could just coast to the end cause we had no viable competition left. The only thing I could see here is once we got to a point where we had a calculatedly victory, we just could declare it game over or someone do the "shift-enter" to the end to prove the victory.

I want to Quckly Sign up for this Game :D. Sirp are you going to watch this one?

Ok, those who have 'the version swap down in 10 sec', how do you do it in a way that's least annoying?

I suppose if I just move my current PtW directory, install up to vers 1.14, I can just rename folders to swap. That way I don't actually keeping touching/modifying/re-patching -- given enough HD space, is that an easy way?

Avoiding a military-culture sandbagging will be an issue. One thought - 'offensive' war declaration is only valid ONCE (to take your 20K city), after that, no more offensive wars / fighting in enemy territory, against any civ that doesn't have a spaceship started. After that, we can take offensive action to forestall a launch.

Charis

You can run the 1.21 patch executable installer again; it'll automatically remove 1.21. Then you can run the 1.14 installer, which will remove 1.14. Then you can run the 1.14 installer once again, which will give you a fresh reinstallation of 1.14. I've been doing this for a month and it works fine.

Skyfish: you're in. Apologies to CivGeneral, but I find that too many players bogs down an SG, especially in this one where the most critical phase of the game will whiz by in probably one player-turn each.

Charis' variant rule sounds good (I knew you'd come through :D ) I might even remove the "has a spaceship started" clause from that; down here on Emperor difficulty we're unlikely to have any problem having the military to do whatever we want to the space race. How about this: during the space race, we may not take action against enemy cities, but we can go for bombardment and resource denial.

I'll start the game tonight, under 1.14.

Let's not go to variant here.

I really don't want to remove the ability to take a capital and lose the game to a space race. With the large delay to get a capture the enemy city, a launch attempt is almost guarenteed.

Originally posted by T-hawk
Apologies to CivGeneral, but I find that too many players bogs down an SG, especially in this one where the most critical phase of the game will whiz by in probably one player-turn each

That is understandible, Also would anyone Mind if I just Observe the game :).

Ok, I'd like to set it as thus: After our initial war in which we capture our 20k city, we may not make any military action in enemy territory. (We can continue the initial war as long as we want - we may as well allow that since otherwise we could just take all their cities and then designate one for 20k.) If a civ has a spaceship under construction, we may attack ONLY their capital, not any other cities. That may require overwhelming military force to absorb losses before we reach the capital, and also might pose a challenge in doing that to multiple civs simultaneously.

To go in-character with it, the Zulu are so fascinated by this city and its wonderful cultural possibilities, that they forget their militaristic tendencies in awe and worship of this city. :cool: If their culture is in danger of being overshadowed by something like a spaceship launch, only then do they wake up and take action against it. :cool:

Starting and playing the game now. 1.14, space race enabled. (Diplomatic is also enabled, because having the UN available to build will help our cultural victory. If we don't manage to get the UN, you're all fired. :lol: )

@T-hawk - Good luck reaching to the UN Victory in Emperor :).

We found Zimbabwe on the starting square, on a river, with a wheat and several bonus grasslands. There was a hut adjacent to the starting position, which gave us 25 gold.

Given that we start with Pottery, I think our best beginning research bet is Bronze and then Iron Working, both at max, to ensure we can get some swordsmen going quickly.

In 3550 BC, England is contacted to the south. We trade Warrior Code for their Ceremonial Burial + 10 gold.

In 3350 BC, England's got Bronze Working, and I pay 52 gold for it to finish off our research. We start Iron Working at max.

In 3200 BC, we pop a settler from a hut! This was the fifth hut we got (two gold, one maps, one deserted.)

Also in 3200 BC, we contact France to the north. We trade Ceremonial Burial + Warrior Code for Masonry and 5 of her 10 gold. Then we trade Masonry to England (it appears to be at monopoly, with France and England not contacting each other) for Alphabet (at 3rd-civ) + 55 gold.

3150 BC: We also meet India across a water gap in the far southwest. Neither of us has any tech the other doesn't.

Our scouts that discovered England and France took a couple turns to explore each city's terrain.

3100 BC: Our free settler founds Ulundi, on a river to the northwest of Zimbabwe, with cattle in immediate range.

3000 BC: I said I'd play 30 turns, but enough happened and I know we have a workable start so I'll pass off after 20. Lee, feel free to take either 10 or 20 (since the first 7 will be spent finishing a granary), then ten each from there. If you would, wait till tomorrow, to let others weigh in with any opinions. :goodjob:

After the granary, I think Zimbabwe should build two workers; both of our cities need tiles improved pronto, and there aren't any great city sites visible immediately. You might also want to build one more scout to check out the fog south of Zimbabwe that I didn't get a scout into.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-3000bc.zip

T-hawk << Just Played
LKendter << UP NOW
Charis << On Deck
Cartouche Bee
Skyfish

Map in next post.

Here's a close-up of our cities, and an overview map of the area.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-3000bc1.jpg

Red dot is the only decent city site within view; it grabs those two bonus grasslands that are just out of Zimbabwe's reach. There's some workable land to the northeast, like those two plains wheat, and the fog area to the south may have some good areas too. And of course we need to build a city to claim some iron when we can.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-3000bc2.jpg

We have a decision to make, as I was hoping we would. Paris or London?

Paris is much closer, and thus could be captured about fifteen turns sooner. And the city's got three game tiles for super-fast growth. This city's problem, though, is that it has no hills, and thus won't have much power for actually building wonders.

London is much farther away, and thus would take longer to capture, plus also be near useless until we managed to rush the Forbidden Palace there. But the city's got several hills and mucho bonus grassland to be a wonder powerhouse in time, and does have a cattle for food bonus.

Originally posted by T-hawk
If you would, wait till tomorrow, to let others weigh in with any opinions.


Since I am going to bed in 5 minutes, not a problem ;)



I don't like either of the cities. Having do 20K before, it need to be a COASTAL city. From a quick glance a the map, neither are coast. Colssus, Magellan, Great Light, etc are very important. I already nab a couple of those when my prime target was lost. No coast, and I would have flushed hundreds of shields.

Since the city won't be our capital, it'll always have the Palace available to carry over between wonders. Coastal access is nice, but not all that critical. BTW, there's no "etc"; the three you listed are all of the coastal wonders. :D

Hmm, I would go with a ICS Methoud. But Settle on that little Red dot to get the Lux. In Emperor you are bound to hit Unhappy Citizens more quickly. I would recomend settleing there mand connect it poste haste (Or soon :) )

I can't open the save right now but it seems London is just 1 tile from the coast which means 3 coastal tiles are wasted, I hate that... I kinda like Paris though ;)
I have already achieved 20K culturals in non-coastal cities, it's not impossible (I feel coastal is more needed for OCCs).
Now seeing the "war" rule, it looks to me the biggest challenge will be to win without (or very limited number of) Great Leaders really...

With the current rules, shield production in the 20K city will be very important. I have not looked at the map yet but I think we have some time to decide on likely targets. :)

Taking a more passive role, we may still get some Great Leaders on defense for rushing wonders. :lol:

Well the *timing* of the attack on our target city could actually bethe "deal maker" in this game : should we go for it ASAP ? should we wait until our neighbours build some nice wonders that would give us cpt as soon as we capture it ?
What are your thoughts on this ?

@Skyfish - Captured wonders give you ZERO culture. You simply get the benifit of the wonder.

I think the captured city will have to be the fp city to give us a chance.

With the new military rule (ARGGGG - I hate rules changed after I sign up) we must get the city ASAP, and fight until we can get a leader for the FP. Failure to get that city the fp = loss IMHO.

Lee, your right about the FP, we may have to settle for a histographic win if things don't turn out for us, assuming we are not allowed to trigger an alternate win.

I did say "we should have some kind of restriction", and I was actually going to make it more restrictive until you complained. ;) If you want, you can switch out of this game; we did have another player who wanted in.

As Cartouche points out, we can declare war on other civs and fight in defensive or neutral territory to fish for GLs.

Paris can build the FP in a reasonable amount of time itself even if it doesn't get a GL to do so, which is also an option.

Charis, you around? You were the most enthusiastic about this game, and you haven't commented yet :P

Tell you what; let the other player have it. It sounds like you have a different vision of the game then I did. It is getting more variant then I like.

I don't want to be responsible for hold you back.

OK. CivGeneral, if you're still reading this, you're in. I'll PM you too. I'm going to rearrange the roster as follows:

T-hawk << JUST PLAYED
Cartouche Bee << UP NOW
Skyfish << On Deck
Charis
CivGeneral

Keeping Charis and myself as the RB anchors separated; Skyfish wanted to follow Cartouche; and slotting the newcomer in at the end so CivGeneral can get his bearings before jumping in. Also giving Charis a couple days to focus on the Epic 25 reports before being distracted here.

Cartouche: go for it! Play 10 or 20 if you like, since the first seven will be spent finishing a granary anyway.

OK, I'll check it out tonight and keep it moving. :)

Hu...CivGeneral : Please don't go ICS on us :eek:
:D

Oh I'm still here, and still enthusiastic. The current topics have been only minor differences to me while deal-breakers to others, so I have had anything to add beyond my initial thought for one way to add a restriction.

I'm more of a by-the-spirit player, so I don't need loophole closing rules to keep me from going astray. This is all about a 20K culture win in a city not your starting capital, with the idea being a true culture-based game and win, not one where you reach 20K first because you've mauled the opposition in another warmonger game. :p

In my mind, the smaller your empire, the less you fight, the more you treat the culture city as the center of the world and let it totally focus on culture, the sweeter the victory.

Regarding other comments, coastal won't matter much. The Great Library is the uber-wonder for 20K wins, picking up one other ancient wonder, any one is nice, then with prebuilds get 2-3 middle age ones, and the typical human mop up on industrial and later wonders, and there ya go. Having a palace prebuild available will be *huge*.

I agree our 20K city should definitely be our FP. Now if I understood the restriction correctly, we won't be able to expand militarily after our first war? It would seem good then to expand aggressively and peacefully and build up some good solid and productive cities, then when the time for war comes, swallow the whole nation. That should give enough cities overall for two full rings, we'll need no more, and we can then capture rather than raze them. In closing the war we would realize that culture is the way to our future, not violence, and put our warring ways behind us. Making that a nice protracted war will also give us a good chance for a Great Leader (to rush the FP?)

France or England? I like the city-spot of Paris much better, I like swallowing the English better from role playing perspective, but either will work - it boils down to what size of a 'final' empire do we want and WHEN do we want to capture the 20K city? A rather late capture with a very nasty war swallowing all of England would give us 2/3 of the continent and give us like 2.5 rings - at a cost of losing early culture - it might be overkill. Paris and France can be swallowed earlier, and give us a healthy but not overbearing empire size.

:egypt:
Charis

Originally posted by Skyfish
Hu...CivGeneral : Please don't go ICS on us :eek:
:D

Hehe, Dont worry I wont :).

Originally posted by Charis
Oh I'm still here, and still enthusiastic. The current topics have been only minor differences to me while deal-breakers to others, so I have had anything to add beyond my initial thought for one way to add a restriction.




during the space race, we may not take action against enemy cities, but we can go for bombardment and resource denial.

I actually thought this would be an easy game for a diversion. It didn't fully sink in until T-Hawk's comment that this would be a difficult game. With the military restriction, and T-Hawks proposal it would be a harder game then I was looking for. With the Emperor AW going I have plenty of hard games.

2750
mm zimbab for growth. lux 50%. I seee the first barb to the west. change ulundi from worker to warrior, safety move.

2710
warrior arrive at zimbab and lux 40%. pop hut for mysticism. Can't get diddly for it so I'll wait.

2670
shadow that french settle that now has a warrior escort. trying to drag barb over to them.

2630
ulundi warrior->worker I consider hooking up the dyes but it will tie up the worker too long with easier tile improvements available. One roaded worked tile will make up for the loss but as the civ gets bigger we will have to invest in roading these jungle born lux. India has wheel so a brokering event may be coming on line. Franch founds Lyon a new potential target is born, on a river, game,lux and hills but light on grasslands.

2590
Lux 30 zimbab settler->settler The good new is that the dot site has a lux, the bad is after this road is done I have to back track.

2550

2510
Bapedi is founded and starts a warrior.

2470

2430
lux 20% zimbab settler->settler Ulundi worker->warrior settler heads for the 2 haystacks with escort

2390

2350

2310
Bapedi warrior-impi. Lux 30 Palace is started

2270
Found Hlobane ->worker Discover iron working.
France writing and 33 gold for iron working.
Indians sell us contact with Egypt for writing and 25 gold.
Egypt gives us 20 gold and wheel for contact with English and alphabet.
English 22 gold for wheel.
That strips all the AI of everything they have right now. We have horses by the 2 haystacks.

2230
Ulundi warrior->worker Zimbab settler->warrior start settler with escort toward the nearest iron. Lux 10% We need escorts!

2190
lux 30.

2150
lux 20. zimbab warrior->settler

Notes: There are alot of barbarians wandering around so watch out.

Maybe we could get T-Hawk to make a more upto date dot map to give some guidance on future expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RPB8-2150BC.SAV

Comments on the save:

Worker chopping a forest that's outside our borders, when there's two bonus grasslands waiting to be mined? :smoke: :smoke: [pimp] Get him out of there!

Also, get Ulundi working all max-food tiles instead of the hill. I think it should also build a granary and be a settler/worker pump, rather than building a worker immediately.

Anyway, here's how I'd dotmap this thing:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-dotmap1.jpg

Our current settler should found on black dot. That gets us iron in first-ring, and an ivory in second-ring for whenever the city gets around to building some culture. I'd like our next settler to go for light green, to claim us more iron and ivory, although we probably won't get this because that English settler will probably go there. White dot is next, to get us some spices if they don't get claimed before that.

All the light blue dots are low-priority "if/when we get there" sites. I'd expect we'll probably be attacking France before we get all of them, though.

Skyfish, you're up. Ten turns, which will be to 1750 BC. :goodjob:

Those shields from logging will go to Bapedi and I'm heading for connecting the horses.

The workers coming on line are to mine BG and connect the cities.

I think of any good reason to not be going for the food in Ulundi except poor play on my part, sorry about that, that was only one turn at least.

OK got it !

20K site assessment :
I was wrong London is not using wasted coastal tiles.
However Lyons is a much better (and closer) Wonder building city than Paris. It's got food bonuses(1 game, 1 flood plain), 4 hills , 2 mountains, 2 BG, a real nice mix which allows creative MM. Just what I like.

I consider long and hard the switch to granary on Ulundi, as suggested by T-Hawk, but we need workers ASAP, waiting aro. 20 turns (with a whip) is too long. Leave it on worker.

1-2110 : Bapedi completes worker, switch to rax, English settler moves south instead of East: I use the opening to move my 2 scouts
towards the settler and start a moving blockade. T-Hawk wants that Light Green site ? Skyfish will get him ;)
A barb is threatening our settler and has moved on a hill I abstain from attacking, will have to defend.. .

IBT : Barb attacks our settler escort, loses and our Barb promotes to vet without any hp lost.

2-2070: Ulundi produces Worker and goes for granary.
Isandhlwana is founded on Black spot. Set to Warrior due in 5 turns, because of the Iron it has great shields and low field. Nothing on the tech front.
England wants 28g, I cave in. We have 186g and making 12 gpt, bound to happen

3-2030: blockade requires our vet warrior, but could work out nicely :)

4-1990: scout in north sets a barb trap to get him away from our workers. Zimbabwe produces settler, has to go warrior, just because of a barb threat, might switch back to settler.
Now big treasure looking for a good use : no tech available BUT England shows 2 workers available ! I buy them for 170g + 3 gpt. That'll take care of the demands for now.

5-1950: playing cat and mouse with both english settler and a barb in the south. Kill a barb in the North, no promotion :( Zimbabwe switch to settler :)

ibt : French start Pyramids in Paris. Egyptians start Oracle.

6-1910: Bapedi produces barracks right on time with the chopped forest, it just needed 10 shields(I helped fate a bit by adding a worker to the chop 1 turn ago)
By the way a Barb Horseman is heading towards Bapedi or Zimbabwe, set Bapedi to Archer. Hlobane worker-> worker Isandhlwana warrior-> warrior

7-1880: Pulling Horseman into open territory...

8-1830: just manage to kill horseman with one Zimbabwe warrior.

9-1790: Settler in place on Light green dot, barbs pop up here and there, need some horsemen ! Zimb produces settler but maybe should first produce a warrior for escort, up to next leader.
Still nothing on the tech front (what a change from Deity hu ?)

ibt : English building Oracle. Egyptians on Colossus.

10-1750: Intombe founded on Light Green spot, set to warrior. Vet warrior kills a barb by Intombe and promotes to Elite but with just 2 hp left. A barb horseman shows up near Zimbabwe,so I move forces around to provide cover.

There is a bit of a situation with the Barbs but with some shuffling around and some trademark :hammer: Charis, we should be OK. You love Chess, don't you ? (;-)
I would take the warrior from Isandhlwana and use it as escort for the settler since there is another warrior coming in 2 turns.

The Blue dot just south of that barb camp is a priority with that wandering settler. It's got Game, river and bg and is a first ring city PLUS it will take care of barbs in that region.
Next settler should then go for the Spices. At least that's how I would play it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-_1750_BC.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-South.jpg

Nice work on getting the Intombe site! Hook up of horses is almost done and looks like you got an elite warrior too! France and England are wasting their production on early wonders, just so we can pass them in *meaningful* production.

I see I'm up next, so 'got it'. I have plans tonight, so I won't finish until tomorrow night.

I think I would have gone with granary too. Our need is for 'several/many' workers, not so much 'one worker now', but with iron disconnected, I can see wanting one right away.

Looking back at the pre-turn map, we knew about iron then and it's still not hooked up? Is that why we're cranking warriors? Are they vets? (I hope. Oh good grief, looks at the map, reg, reg, reg, reg... and no treasury for upgrading anyway) Why are we working on an archer? Why haven't we hit France yet? Why does buttered bread land on the butter side if you drop it? Ooops... those are just things I'm curious about, not nits, I've not looked at any of the saves yet. Besides I think I know the answer - 'jungle'. But I would be surprised not to see some whipping and heavy preparation for war on my watch.

Charis

Archer is still vetoable, but we are badly missing firepower to get rid of those barbs, you'll see when you start playing :lol:
Iron not connected because it's far away and would have taken 10 turns to get hooked up while our core is still working non-improved tiles. The city next to Iron has very low food but good shields, one worker in 20 turns :(
We don't even have barracks yet (OK it just finished a turn ago), and you want me to hit France ? I usually get told off because I take too many risks but that one would been a major :nono: I am sure... :)

ps : true I am weak on the whip..but we are weak on food as well.

Archers are great anti-barb units especially with the changed barb AI in PTW. I won't complain about any archers that get built (well, until we have iron :D )

And hey, if those regular warriors are bothering you, attack barbs with 'em and get 'em promoted :lol:

Not unexpectedly, a closer look at the map shows our problems are map related, not weed related :P It's a rough start!
---

Charishaka the Mighty Zulu wrenched power in the year 1750BC.
He was known to all as "Great Elephant" and he was known far
and wide as a military man. A ruthless one. A burn-their-village
kind of guy. Yet hardly anyone knew the real Charishaka. He was
actually a calm, peace loving guy. He had a real appreciation for
all things cultural. In fact, he thought the Zulu culture FAR
superior to any culture in the land. He vowed, a most sacred
vow, that he would depose the leader of one of the nation of
"swallows", and their, *in their very city*, build a Mecca of
Zulu culture and esteem. The only questions were where, and when?!

The tradition of his fathers and other generals taught to fight
wars of limited objectives - have an exit strategy. But Charishaka
would have none of this. He lived by one motto - Never, ever, leave
an enemy behind. (Historical note- I believe this WAS a key principle
Shaka lived by, but ironically, he left behind one very important
enemy, his half-brother, who would one day slay the great elephant!
Plus, this fits in the the rules of the SG, we'll only get ONE crack
at an offensive war, and so it should be one where we end up swallowing
the nation whole, not stopping for peace.)

He brought forth his advisors to explain the situation. The terrain
was hideous, they cried, and it has taken the wisest and most skillful
of our leaders to even get us as far as we have gotten today. Worse,
barbarians plagued the countryside and threatened our very safety.
This could not stand.

In power we reign supreme on our continent. Zimbabwe is considered
the greatest city on the planet. There is one that challenges its
claim to supremacy. Paris. "Pah-REE" these young whelps would say.
This sad city is trying to actually produce a great wonder, called
the Pyramids. It's the only nation even trying! However they only
started five seasons ago, so I don't relish waiting until it's done.
Still, that means their most productive city, 25% of their whole
nation's productivity, is tied up!

Charishaka looks at the lame excuses for boys posing as spearmen, and
makes several modifications to their tactics. First he replaces the long,
thin, weak throwing spear with a much tougher, shorter, wider, thrusting
spear for close combat. Second he trains ALL warriors to run like horses,
knowing that speed matters. Third, he teaches these men to use formations
and terrain to their advantage. These new breed of spearmen would be known
to the world as "Impi." They would become a distinctive trait of the Zulu.

Our military is considered "weak" compared to ALL nations, says our
military advisor. Charishaka almost feints, knowing the leanings of
those who came before. It's the jungle, sir, the jungle. All in all then,
we're in absolutely no shape to wage a major war, one we plan to last until
France is wiped off the map. We do want to settle the horse and/or iron north
of Hlobane (although capture from France would do just as well). If we won't
be able to fight two civs then, we'll want to focus settlers in the SOUTH,
away from France, to claim land peacefully there, and plan to capture several
cities in the North.

[0] -1750: Ah, that archer from Bapedi will be a vet! That's much better
than a reg archer. Still... Hlobane with two wheat is swapped to granary,
while Ulundi with several hills, is swapped from granary to rax. Intombe to rax.
Isandhlwana is swapped from warrior to rax. The warrior there moves to cover
the settler, who is heading for south of barb camp. Why all the rax? I want
VET warriors, even for MP, so that when our peaceful expansion is over, we can
upgrade them en masse to warriors and start mauling. Besides, as we're mil, they're
cheap. I move lux down from 10% to 0%, it's just not needed right now.

With this strat, and with a build-up needed before hitting France, holding off
the iron hookup was the right choice by previous leaders. In fact, let's crank
12-15 vet warriors or so before hooking one up.

(IBT) Sonofagun, a barb horse shows up west of Isand, just a a barb warr comes
up from the east next to our warr-settler pair. If our warr attacks, the city
is toast to the horse. So be it! (??!)

[1] -1725: We press forward to the camp, killing two barb warriors.
(IBT) Yes, Isand is sacked, for 11g.

[2] -1700: Ulundi's rax is done, and it starts an Impi.
Two workers are on the horse and need to make a road. It would take 3 turns for one,
looking like a wasted turn. Let's try "ctrl-R".

[3] -1675: France moves a settler pair next to the iron on the coast and will get it.
Before they settle our scout reaches the iron, and settles in for a nap. It's a nice
view from the hill (an honorable man will move him when a worker asks of course)

As predicted, the cntrl-R redeems our turn. Mountain camp dispersed.

[4] -1650: Indians start Oracle. An English settler-warr pair is heading towards us,
If he actually steps into our land, he might be in for a surprise?!
Where to send OUR new settler? To white dot for incense. Mpondo is founded,
which means "City founded beneath the slain barbarians who dared oppose Charishaka!"
(or so tells the Great Elephant's historian!)

Bapedi tried to mm for an early archer, but corruption prevailed. With one
shield short, I hate to see the waste, and swap to granary. Bapedi is potentially
a great city, but surrouned by jungle. It will need many workers.
(IBT) We get the FP msg, ah yes, it's a small world, after all.

[5] -1625: Egypt and France have Code of Laws. I hold off, waiting for a brokerage,
as the other two civs are broke.
(IBT) Egypt starts the Pyramids. I hope Paris beats them!

[6] -1600: Quiet turn of movement. (IBT) That English settler pair turned around and
settled Canterbury on the lake in the jungle. Our incense city will be halfway between
it and Isand.

[7] -1575: At Hlobane we start some longer-term worker projects. Two start hacking
down a jungle that leads to the lake, and the other to a forest which when chopped
will allow water to be brought over to irrigate the second wheat.

[8] -1550: Our first Impi completes at Ulundi. Next up, a Chariot, with a better
upgrade path than an archer. Besides, "SPEED!" says Charishaka. In fact, have we
forgotten the dread power of horse-impi pairs?! (No, horses just got hooked up)

[9] -1525: A turn spent contemplating when we will see a city captured...

[10] -1500: Zimbabwe's culture expands, as our glorious Impi enters the city to protect
it. Ngome is settled to claim the incense. It's escort warrior diverted and took
out a barb camp, and should be sent to protect this new city. The spot is 100%
jungle infested, and starts a granary. It's a no-rush city, but will need a slew
of workers. If things get hot, swap to a rax.

SE of Zimbabwe is an extra warrior heading to the city to provide escort for the
settler due out very shortly. Imtombe is a candidate for our first temple, btw,
to expand and claim those ivory.

Save file 1500BC RBP8 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-Zulu-1500BC.zip)

Good luck,
Charishaka, the Great Elephant

Looks good. One nit: Charishaka the Micromanager left Ulundi working +2 food instead of +3. :p One other nit: the worker chopping forest at Hlobane should be chopping one tile south of where it is; that would let irrigation go through the horses tile and get to the wheats sooner. OK, one more nit: chopping jungle at Isandhlwana? Better, I think, to just build the road through, and get the workers busy irrigating plains there and eventually hooking up the iron.

I'd also like to point out that despite starting in the jungle, we're STILL out-expanding our rivals.

CivGeneral, you'd be up now. Play 10 turns, to 1250 BC. :goodjob:

I was holding off on producing Impis because of (amongst others) early Golden Age issues : what's our take on that GA ?
I believe we should trigger it as we start war vs France (I agree with CB that early GAs are way under rated...).
What do you think about Lyons instead of Paris for our next new cultural capital ?

> Looks good. One nit: Charishaka the Micromanager left Ulundi
> working +2 food instead of +3.
Inexcusable! :P Actually, the Great Elephant was switching tiles in every city, every round, oh Great Hawk. Either it needs exactly 2 food to grow, or I didn't get around to switching it back.

> One other nit: the worker chopping forest at Hlobane should be
> chopping one tile south of where it is; that would let irrigation
> go through the horses tile and get to the wheats sooner.
Roger.

> OK, one more nit: chopping jungle at Isandhlwana? Better, I
> think, to just build the road through, and get the workers busy
> irrigating plains there and eventually hooking up the iron.
This was considered, but in cases where I know I want both jungle gone AND a road, and both fairly soon, I tend to chop first. That city is hurting for food, and I wanted to get it a grass asap. But it's a close call, and if someone else chose to road first rather than chop I wouldn't disagree. Tnx for pointing these out.

> I'd also like to point out that despite starting in the jungle,
> we're STILL out-expanding our rivals.
:hammer: Actually, that *is* impressive.

> I was holding off on producing Impis because of (amongst
> others) early Golden Age issues : what's our take on that GA ?
> I believe we should trigger it as we start war vs France (I
> agree with CB that early GAs are way under rated...).

I knew this was the main reason you had not, and a good reason. I too agree that early GA's are under-rated, and in this game in particular, we'll want to see our 20K city get as big a boost as early as possible. Besides, for purely RPG reasons, the Great Elephant is in love with his Impi and disdains archers.

> What do you think about Lyons instead of Paris for our next
> new cultural capital ?

I don't think there is a huge difference, as (by my reasoning) we'll be capturing both those cities (and most/all others of France as well.) The distance is similar from our capital, and the tiles are somewhat similar. Doh... I was just doing to say that I favor Paris just because we would have the Pyramids, but since I just said we'll capture both cities, it doesn't matter. (If Egypt gets Pyramids instead of Paris, they'll be the game superpower for sure, and we may end needing to hit Thebes in the heart of their territory to prevent early launch). If Paris doesn't expand first, we have a one-step move from neutral territory to right next to Paris (unless Marseilles took that neutral land away), while Lyons is deeper. From the perspective of 'showing them' who has the greater culture, Paris is more appropriate. But really, I wouldn't mind it either way.

Besides the Pyramids issue, as far as timing, we'll want to get our city captured in sufficient time to have it prebuild for, and get, the Great Library, or we'll have a *monstrous* task in front of us. Here's where the final rule about one offensive war hurts us - it would be better for that city by far to have *already* taken it in a lightning war with very limited objectives, then come back later and claim a 'ring' of cities around it in a subsequent war. Unless I'm misreading our restriction, we can't do that. This makes things harder, but more interesting as well. Given our slow capture (perhaps very slow), there may be a greater need than expected for a few leader-farming defensive wars. (And without the luxury of a Heroic Epic, since any great leader should be used to rush a wonder in our 20k city, not form an army)

Charis

@Charis: Heroic Epic itself produces a ton of culture (5 per turn, 10 after doubling),and is also a very useful pre-build for other wonders (although I suspect you'll be using palace pre-build), so using a leader for an army (and then building Heroic Epic in your captured city) may not be all that bad a move.

@Nad : good point !

@Charis : maybe I did not look too good but it seemed to me the terrain was quite different between Lyons and Paris. OK probably the total shields and food are the same but the spread is quite different and I find the Lyons spread more diverse and could help be more creative. No ?

This is definitely shaping up into a major race against the clock, as in "race against 2050"....

Originally posted by Nad
@Charis: Heroic Epic itself produces a ton of culture (5 per turn, 10 after doubling)

<delurk>
Actually it's 4 cpt initially, but still, that's not bad at all!
Good luck guys. I will be reading this one with great interest.
</delurk>

Wow, my turn is up when I was sleeping :). Ill post my Ive got it :D.

CivGeneral's 10 Turns

1500BC - Preturn Annalysis

Anylized the situation of the game

1475BC - Turn 1

Moved a Couple of units, Gave workers there orders

1450BC - Turn 2

Zimbabwe: Settler -> Impi
Isandhlwana: Warrior -> Temple

Gave workers orders
Moved units for Exploration

1425BC - Turn 3

Ulundi: Chariot -> Impi
Bapedi: Granary -> Settler

Checked up on trades
England
They Give:
Map Making

We give:
146g

1400BC - Turn 4

Mpondo: Worker -> Barracks

1375BC - Turn 5

Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders

1350BC - Turn 6

Can someone Explain to me why a Barb Warrior just loves to Follow my scout :hmm:
Swazi has been founded

1325BC - Turn 7

The French wants to talk to us
Checked up on trades
French
They Give:
Code of Laws

We give:
106g

Warrior moves close to our Worker, moved a Warrior to defend "I dont think so Barb Warrior"

Zimbabwe: Imp -> Temple

1300BC - Turn 8

Hehe, That warrior scared that Barb away
Bapedi: Settler -> Imp

1275BC - Turn 9

Ulundi: Impi -> Temple
Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders

1250BC - Turn 10

Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders
Intombe: Barracks -> Impi

Note to the next player: The Settler is enroute to the Cow Tile that is on the plains (I Strongly recomend Settleling Next to the cattle.

RBP8 - 1250BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-Zulu-1250BC.zip)

Youre up T-hawk :Thumbup::goodjob:

OK, I've got it. One point of discussion - it's usually not necessary to buy techs at full price like that. Better to wait, bide our time, and see if we can eventually find an opportunity to buy Map Making from somebody and immediately resell it to somebody else for Code off Laws. Or wait until our minimum research on Polytheism finishes and see if we can trade that for the techs, rather than spending the cash.

OK, let's see how things look.

Zinbabwe's building a temple? Unneeded. Also, the city is sitting at one food short of growing. Careful with that micromanagement. :) Swapped to settler; there's still a couple more sites we want to fill.

And I really have to wonder about the worker management. There's two workers outside our borders at Hlobane when there's two unirrigated wheats right there. I have no idea what the worker building a road in jungle at Mpondo is trying to accomplish; he gets moved out of there right away. And CivGeneral didn't fix the weed in clearing jungle at Isandhlwana. Well, I guess we may as well let that last complete now.

==========

Still not much to report on a turn-by-turn basis. France founded a city where CivGeneral wanted to send our settler, so that settler turned around and built on a point over on the east coast.

Defended against barbs; had one defenseless city sacked for 16 gold.

1125 BC: Babylon pops up in a diplomacy exchange. He wants to give us Horseback Riding in exchange for Code of Laws. I make a counterproposal, which is our Code of Laws and Map Making for his Horseback Riding and world map, which we accept.

Babylon is behind in tech, but has a fair bit of land over there, and as many cities as we do. They'll be a power, in time. They're on their own island, apart from India-Egypt. (Nice pangaea. :p )

1100 BC: Literature is around this turn and France is building the Great Library. This is bad: it means the cascade from the Pyramids will continue to the Great Library, and really hurt our chances of landing it in Paris with a Leader.

1075 BC: The minimum run on Polytheism has finished.

Traded to France for full monopoly cash cost of 349 gold!
Traded to England for Literature, 52 gold, and a world map.
Traded to Egypt for 124 gold.
Traded to India for Philosophy.

Minimum research on Republic is ordered, although we could change that to max which would take 24 turns.

==========

We have one currently active settler that will probably be our last (other than replacing autorazed French cities.) It should go to the extreme southeastern tip of our landmass, although a barb camp just popped up there (on the spot we want to settle), so be careful.

Ulundi, Bapedi, and Hlobane were cranking warriors like crazy on my turn. There's seven in Hlobane already, and more on the way. Cartouche will probably get to upgrade them (we have 763 gold!) and declare war on France on his turn, assuming we're all agreed in turning Paris into the cultural capital of the world. Orleans is the only other French city that hasn't expanded borders and thus won't be autorazed, but it's farther away and has worse terrain than Paris. (If we try to take any with unexpanded borders, even if it's larger than size 1, the AI will whip defenders and the city will end up size 1 and autorazed.)

Hopefully we can get a Great Leader in time to build the Great Library, or maybe the Hanging Gardens, or at least the Forbidden Palace.

If possible, I would be in favor of delaying our Golden Age. Maybe try to trigger it with an Impi just before we finish eliminating France, 30 or so turns from now as we get into Republic. I don't think it will help now, although if it does happen, it's not that bad.

The moment our Zulu will discover the wonders of culture is close at hand!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-1000bc.zip

T-hawk <<< Just Played
Cartouche Bee <<< UP NOW
Skyfish <<< On Deck
Charis
CivGeneral

OK, I got it. Haven't looked at the map yet but I'll try and avoid GA, getting swords would help on that.

I'll stick with building warriors to flesh out the army and mass up MP's. Paris will be the target and I want at least 10 swords for the frontal attack.

975BC
Bapedi will build horsemen since it has 6 shields and will give some speed to react to barbs or other threats. I want to get the spice connected in Ulundi, via Hlobane but I'll only commit one worker to that task. I only assign 1 worker to hook up the iron cause that gives us time to build another half dozen warriors.

950BC London build oracle.

The barbs over at the last city site are a bother without much defense. I eliminate the camp with the warrior from Tuglea, our city defends against a warrior and I have to sacrifice a scout as bait to get the horsemen away from our 2 weakened warriors.

850BC The French complete the Pyramids. Mathematics is widely available now and I can pick it up for 103 gold. I will take one cat with the sword stack and may get lucky and drop Paris to size 6 with a hit. Ivory comes on line (from the build road to!) so I readjust the worker in Ulundi. Found Umfolozi.

800BC Declare war with France. Paris is down to size 4 from size 7! I have 11 swords, 1 cat and 1 horseman on the way under declaration of war. If I had been sharper I would have moved a couple the of regular warriors in Hlobane back to MP exchange with the vets doing that duty.

775BC Paris down to size 2! Guess they are panicked. Just shows how strong a cat can be. :lol:

750BC The capitol starts a rax to add to the war effort.

We are on the doorstep of Paris. In 2 turns the spice will be hooked up helping to put another level of happiness across the board.
RBP8 750BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-750BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RPB6-750BC.JPG

I'm glad to see we're finally about to capture our first city :P
Wow, size 7 to 2? Paris and the French collapsing in a heap at the hint of war? Imagine that!! On the downside, Paris is going to be *majorly* uphappy for a millenium to come. We'll likely whip it once to get that temple out asap, and it will bear the brunt of Joan's whip for a long time. I'm glad we have several luxuries to help with that. Going to Republic when we can will also help, letting us cash rush instead of pop-rush. Pariszulu will need every cultural building done the turn after the tech is available, when it's not busy pre-building. Churning out some extra workers from other cities to help grow Pariszulu may also help.

Good job to all on expanding, we did a very nice job grabbing land, especially to the south where we don't plan to go on offense. We shall increase in size quite a bit by swallowing France. I really hope we can get a leader, the course of the entire game hangs on whether we snag the Great Library or not. So be good fishers of men!

Good luck, Skyfish,
Charis

@T-hawk - I am interested in learning more on your Trading Style :)

Wow, size 7 to 2? Paris and the French collapsing in a heap at the hint of war? Imagine that!!

:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :goodjob:

I'd probably avoid whipping Paris any more; we aren't that far from Republic. We could also disband military in the city to get the temple built.

Yeah, landing the Great Library there should put us on track for the win. It's not impossible without, though, and the Hanging Gardens are still out there too. Keep your fingers crossed.

CivGeneral - Check out my Realms Beyond Civ Epic 25 report at http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic25/ for a tour-de-force of trading and brokering.

Skyfish, you're up! Oh, and cancel those granaries being built if we're about to capture the Pyramids :D

Sh*t !
I was looking up to this Leader fishing expedition : I get an IOData BIC error when I try to open the file...
Could it be because it was played in 1.21f (with all those SGs and 2 patches I understand it could easily happen really) ? or is just a .sav corruption issue ?
Can anyone try to open it to see if they get a problem ?
:help:

Could be version problem, I can't check right now.

I think I should drop out of the game. I'm not going to sign up for anymore of the 1.14 games.

How about you play my turns over then, Skyfish and move the game forward?

If that's not acceptable I can do my turns over tonight, on 1.14 if that was the problem.

Please don't drop out ! :(

You just want to take Paris! ;)

Anyway based on your response and our time differences I'll rerun the turns tonight (unless directed otherwise). Be intersting to see if the French capitulate in Paris as fast under threat of war with 1.14. Also, I won't redistribute those reg warriors as I did not in the first play, otherwise there was not much action that would change the outcome.

My apologies for the screw up.

If everyone in the game could run 1.21 I'd leave it upgraded, but Skyfish is stuck on 1.14 IIRC. So, Cartouche, if you would, please play again under 1.14. (Don't feel bad, I did the same thing to SP5 :) ) And I know you don't want to drop LK44 which is also 1.14, so you gotta deal with the versions anyway ;)

Thanks, T-hawk I just need to pay more attention. ;)


Notes the same except for 800BC, where I saw that Paris must have built a settler before I declared war.



I'll stick with building warriors to flesh out the army and mass up MP's. Paris will be the target and I want at least 10 swords for the frontal attack.

975BC
Bapedi will build horsemen since it has 6 shields and will give some speed to react to barbs or other threats. I want to get the spice connected in Ulundi, via Hlobane but I'll only commit one worker to that task. I only assign 1 worker to hook up the iron cause that gives us time to build another half dozen warriors.

950BC London build oracle.

The barbs over at the last city site are a bother without much defense. I eliminate the camp with the warrior from Tuglea, our city defends against a warrior and I have to sacrifice a scout as bait to get the horsemen away from our 2 weakened warriors.

850BC The French complete the Pyramids. Mathematics is widely available now and I can pick it up for 103 gold. I will take one cat with the sword stack and may get lucky and drop Paris to size 6 with a hit. Ivory comes on line (from the build road to!) so I readjust the worker in Ulundi. Found Umfolozi.

800BC Paris is down to size 4 from size 7 (so they must have rushed a settler), so this drop was not part of the war declaration! Declare war with France. I have 11 swords, 1 cat and 1 horseman on the way under declaration of war. If I had been sharper I would have moved a couple the of regular warriors in Hlobane back to MP exchange with the vets doing that duty.

775BC Paris down to size 2! Guess they are panicked. Just shows how strong a cat can be.

750BC The capitol starts a rax to add to the war effort.

We are on the doorstep of Paris. In 2 turns the spice will be hooked up helping to put another level of happiness across the board.


RBP8-750BC (tp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-750BC1.SAV)

OK, glad we got that sorted out. Skyfish is up again, followed by Charis. Vive la Zulu! :hammer:

To refresh on my earlier comments: I'd probably avoid whipping Paris any more; we aren't that far from Republic. We could also disband military in the city to get the temple built.

Oh, and cancel those granaries being built if we're about to capture the Pyramids :D

Oh thanks a lot CB !
You bet I wanna take Paris ;) but more important is to keep you in the game !
Great stuff, I have now gotten it my friends.

Ok I have played 2 turns into my round and it's pretty obvious that we are able to wipe out all of France very quickly (I probably could do it on my round).
I wanted to check with you guys on the following :
Is it in line with the spirit of the game to in a way "farm" the French to increase our Great Leader chances ?
We could take out Paris and maybe 2 more cities but then wait for our Elites to heal up and, while still not signing peace, just make the war last that little bit longer in order to have a max number of Elites and thus increase our GL chances.
Also there is still plenty of barbs and at the moment and we have only 2 elite warriors and no Elite sword so the chance of popping a Leader is very slim.

What do you think ?

I believe we should do it because :
- we could very easily finish the war with France and end up with no Great Leaders.
- we could disband a lot of swords in Paris in order to rush a Temple, that will in itself lengthen greatly the time we are at war with France.
- I find it is in the spirit of the game to rush culture in Paris, ASAP and by any means possible, even if that cost us time, money and effort while at war with France.

Let me know as I will go on playing in about 6/7 hours.

Yes. The challenge to complete a 20k, with the further military restrictions, should be sufficient by itself that we can pursue it by whatever means desired.

I would draw a line here: at intentionally leaving France with one city to produce a trickle of units for our elites to slaughter. Wipe them out if it comes to that, but that's some time away yet.

preturn : Continue (start ;) ) the process of getting reg warrior to MP duty and getting our Elite warriors to the frontline and vet warriors to barracks cities.
One big weed is that those Dyes right on our doorstep in Bapedi are not hooked up yet...
OK I Know we hate roading through Jungle but we are paying 10% lux for nothing here.

1-730: Damned French rush something as the city is now size 1 ! "The power of cats" would say someone I know ;)
Defended by 4 spears, we lose only one sword but get 2 promos to Elite (out of 4 victories) with very minor hp lost.
We capture Paris and the Pyramids and start building a Temple.
Granaries changed to Temple in Ngome (under Cultural pressure from Canterbury) and Mpondo (no other better choice).

ibt : French warrior loses vs our vet sword in jungle, we get another Elite promo.

2-710: we kill some barbs, have an SoD moving towards Lyons, another one towards Avignon. Have a chariot on the French Iron to pillage next turn (if he survives).
ibt : Helio completes Colossus, our only horse in france retreats from a counter by an archer, indians & babs building great library.
No resister in Paris anymore : either I sacrifice 8 or 9 swords or I can go on leaderfishing I choose the latter. Join workers + Whipping was not really a possibility I 'm afraid...

3-690 : we capture Lyons almost without resistance, no promos. We pillage their Iron.

ibt : french start Great Library :goodjob: our Elite sword defeats a french sword counter.

4-670 : troop movements.
ibt : the barbs attack a French archer that was annoying me :lol: , they're gassed already, no counter.

5-650 : more troop build up near Avignon, troop movements, healing of Elites.

6-630 : we auto-raze Avignon but still no GL despite 2 elite victories. French have Republic ! ..and would be glad to give it to us if we stopped that genocide.
Hu...no thanks ! Will count on some other AI buying it from them. Research stopped. We make +39gpt and have 630g. Temple plans for Paris changed.

7-610 : English still do not have Republic. Moving troops again. Irrigating those mined Games in Paris.

ibt : Elephantine Completes the Great Library :eek: :eek: :( :mad: :cry:
French found Dijon in Jungle just above Ngome, catching my 2 elite warriors and 1 elite sword going towards Marseilles by surprise.

8-590 : Our Elite sword kills a french warriorwith no damage...but still no GL.
The English actually discovered Construction and exchanged it for all their treasure (more than 300g) to France for Republic, that will help the French war effort.
We buy Republic for 20gpt and 170g : I want to keep my treasure for rushes in Paris and keep the English searching for us, giving them a big lump sum they could spend it all
on rushes themselves. We drop into Anarchy for 6 turns and lose 20gpt.

ibt : English build Great Wall.

9-570 : We kill a French sword near Chartres in the battle for the Iron and get promo. We encircle Dijon with 2 elites in hope of leaders.

ibt : English troops build up by our Jungle city. You can have it if you want I don't mind the 20gpt this will save us and the city is useless anyway.

10- We capture Marseilles with an Elite warrior but losing a vet sword, still no GL. Retreat an Elite warrior towards jungle city just in case the English want a taste of us.

We...need...more ...workers !
I had all fringe cities only producing workers almost and I believe we should go on.

It was a difficult turn, I could not convince myself it was better to disband all those swords for a Temple instead of going Leader fishing,
I did the latter because I could (gut) feel someone might actually complete the Great Library before us...guess what happened ? I had no idea this would happen so fast.
I knew it was risky and I assume my responsibilities. There is still hope of getting a GL so will see in a few turns how that works out...I am sure the subliminal power of Charis will "work wonders", literally.
I purposely took time to destroy the French just to increase our chances for a GL, waiting for Elites to heal, letting them attack only wounded untis, playing cat & mouse with the AI in order to use our 2 Elite warriors.
Getting Republic so fast, sort of compensates as we will have a Temple in Paris in 4 or 5 turns.

Sorry for handing over in Anarchy, I hate to do that but the clock's tickin' !

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-550_BC.zip

Originally posted by Skyfish

One big weed is that those Dyes right on our doorstep in Bapedi are not hooked up yet...


I thought we had Dyes and Ivory already. Spices just about to hook.

I could have missed out on the Dyes, no offense meant. The Spices indeed hooked up nicely.

No offense taken, just a heads up on what will be said about that worker in the jungle. :)

We have dyes hooked up: Bapedi is built on top of some. 'Tis easy to miss.

Charis is up now, CivGeneral is on deck. Go get 'em!

CivGeneral holds back on his emotianal Explosion

I should be ready. Are there anything that I should Improve or suggestions I should do when I get the save. Thanks

Discurraged Aspiring Deity Player,
CivGeneral

The Great Elephant, Charishaka of the Zulu, was proud to be in command. Not
only in command, but at a time of great GLORY for his empire. We would swallow
the swallows known as France, and establish a new seat of power in the wondrous
city that would become known as Parishaka. In fact, mandate one was renaming of
the city. :hammer:

As he reviewed the annals of recent history, Charishaka was delighted to see
that we had captured the wondrous Pyramids in our new cultural center, although
it was shock and dismay to note that another, weaker civilization, spending too
much time with books, had been the first to build a Great Library. The other thing
he noted with sadness was that others had forsaken his beloved Impi, choosing to
delay their entrance on the world scene for a 'more opportune time'. Anarchy was
in fact reigning, but Charishaka would bring us a new and much more productive
form of government. He would also protect the empire with his favorite Impi.
He would push his men hard to help them become elite, and if at all possible,
see if a great leader would emerge. For surely such a leader could help build
a new cultural building dedicated to the King of Kings. A Sistine chapel would
be the highest form of culture available in the middle ages. The arts would also
serve us well if we could be ready for them, e.g. Bach's and Shakespeare's. It's
early yet, but we must know these things and be ready to work towards them.
Add in Forbidden Palace (3cpt) and Heroic Epic (4cpt) and there's no shortage
of good things to build.

Looking now at the save... we have the strongest military in the world?! Fantastic!
Tip for when in anarchy - the governor will assign clowns willy-nilly, be sure to
reset most to taxmen. We get an extra 5 gpt from this. Also, don't work forests or
hills, but set everything to max food, the only thing not fully corruped under anarchy.

[0] -550: We don't need reg warriors around for MP anymore, so I will disband
a few in towns where we're just a few shields short of finishing a build.
We do this in Isand and set up to do it in Hlobane and Zimbabwe next turn.

IBT the she-dog Joan dared to speak to the Great Elephant this turn.
"What could you possibly do to satisfy my lust, Joan?" She winkly coyly.
"No, no, no, you fool! My lust for war, my craving for adventure!"
"Er... construction?" "You are dismissed, Joan." Then her sword beat one
of ours. In other news, a stack of THREE warriors step up next to Ngome.
Do they mean funny business? It would be MOST unfortunate for them if so!
Once again I smack into the "can't create an embassy during anarchy" rule.

[1] -530: Marseilles resistance ends. rng isn't nice to us as we lose two battles
with swords and win a third. The only defender left in Orleans is a 1hp sword,
but no more attackers. Dijon, the silly city, is autorazed. And right with
an English settler nearby. We capture Chatres. Not only no leaders, no promotes.
I shift over what I can to Ngome. AI doesn't move 3-stacks for no reason.

Oh my! Big surprise! England sneak attacks us!! You want the good news or the
bad news? It's the same item!! Our Impi holds the city against three warriors.
You know what that means? Golden Age. In Anarchy. Actually, not THAT bad, it's
just 3 turns of it, and we can use this to jump start Parishaka. Still, not
the best timing.

[2] -510: Our elites fight like pansies, and go down in flames. Not good fishing.
Our impi, otoh, goes on offense vs an English warr-settler inside our border
and lays down the smack!

IBT Sword, although hurt, comes at us again, winning and stealing our cat!

[3] -490: Yet luck is not our total enemy. The sword leaving the city meant only
one defender left, so we capture Orleans, and get the cat back :P AND, the
sword at 1hp died to our horse. The cat then hits an exposed archer, and our
Impi kills it. With anarchy due to end next turn, I fix back the city tiles.

[4] -470: We're now in Republic, with 16 turns of GA in front of us. Income is
around +90gpt, nice. First thing is to rush the temple at Parishaka.
Luxury needs to go to 10%. Zimbabwe is over 20spt for the GA. Charishaka
vows an Impi per turn for the rest of his reign.

We found the city of 'Nandi' (the name of the Great Elephant's mother)
on the ruins of a French city east of Parishaka.

[5] -450: A nice fishing opportunity. Two warrs, one reg and one vet approach
Lyons. We have two swords and an elite warrior. Let's weaken then try the
warrior. Our sword loses, the other wins, and it's our elite vs their hurt
warrior. If we lose, Lyon will actually fall! Instead...

MPANDE! A noble leader trained by the hand of Charishaka!! :hammer:
Oh righteous and wonderful day!! We hadn't actually gotten around to saying
what to do with a leader, but I have to think the first one HAS to go to
a forbidden palace in Parishaka. A second one would be nice for Army leading
to Epic, but if no second one ever came, Parishaka is currently 95% corrupt.
He runs to FP site, and throws all his life into a great yet Forbidden Palace!
It'll take him an extra round to get there. The Great Elephant decides his swords
fight like French pansies, and vows not to make another one. Horses, with the
speed to match the Impi, shall be his offense. Four elite swords dead doing
little damage, while our elite *warrior* has risen to the challenge.

[6] -430: With the library at Parishaka a quarter done with chopping, we rush that
now. The chopped forest spot is a BG too, nice.

IBT After a horse fails to beat an archer and retreats, our impi tries, both
now at 1hp. The archer now returns fire, and loses, promoting our Impi to elite!

[7] -410: Our units have healed and reach Rheims. One horse wins, a second retreats.
A settler moves toward the ivory at our west border to protect them against
English poaching.

IBT Speaking of which, here comes an english settler-pair heading for the spot.

[8] -390: Charishaka says "Our pansymen show their mettle again, an elite dying to
a regular spear in Rheims. Then we summon forth a REAL military unit, and a 1hp
horse takes the city." :hammer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-Zulu-410BC-FP.jpg

IBT Hammurabi the weak, the puny of spirit, demands Republic as *TRIBUTE*??
TRIBUTE from the Great Elephant?!??! He's is beyond insane, and his outrageous
demand receives no attention. I tell him that he will see the bust of his mother
covered in dung and surrounded by gadflies before he shall ever see tribute from
the mighty zulu empire. This obviously displeases him, and he makes the mistake
of declaring war on the mighty Zulu. Let him come, and commit suicide at our gates!
We shall fish for leaders of men on his pathetic little bowmen.

[9] -370: Ulundi's courthouse completes, allowing 17spt in GA. I have many courthouses
going btw, the GA is a good time for this. Besancon is autorazed.
Parishaka is getting well improved and is already size five and 10spt.

IBT An archer runs out of Tours - is it headed for Parishaka? A barb horseman is!
Speaking of barb horsemen, we're not far from the time of large uprisings.

[10] -350: That English settler pair left the safety of home, and got whacked.
This will bring Lizzie to the table. She won't give a tech for free, but
almost, Construction for just 6gpt. She has Currency, but that's an insult.
I see no reason not to stay at war for a while with her and if she sends more
troops or settlers, whack 'em with elites. As for Hammy, I can only hope he'll
send units for us to beat on.

Note to next leader: There is a settler on goto to the hill on the river which
covers all those ivory between Ngome and Intombe. If you prefer a different spot,
interrupt his move. The grass spot smack halfway between Nottngham and Canterbury
is also on a river, 3 squares from each of those, but further from our cities.

There is an *unmoved* settler on a square just outside Zimbabwe. He might head
to the ruin spot SE of Marseilles (ex-Dijon), the river spot 3 SE of Lyons,
to cover over ruin of Besancon, or wherever you like. Take along an Impi from Zimbabwe.

We're going at Monarchy at one scientist rate. If you can, let as many courthouses
complete without veto. They're as useful as factories+marketplaces combined right
now in the cities where they are going. Captured French cities are on temples to
help fight flip risk. I've not starved much since I've assumed the plan is to wipe
France off the planet. If we don't, Parishaka might flip. The only problem --
they have a small city, Rouen, on a tiny two square island. There's a risk it could
be impregnable until marines. If we demand the city in tribute, correct me if I'm wrong
but we could not start another war vs France and take their last city?
Look over the map, and if any questions, toss them out to the team.

The current capital is at Tours, and it absolutely must go, and soon. It's WAY too
close to Parishaka and our whole second ring. We're at 100g treasury and +104gpt.
Don't let the empty cities overly bother you either, I've been playing zone defense,
and no foe has shown any moxie in trying to go for them (although it may have
enticed Hammy to foolishness)

BTW, CivGeneral, do not be discouraged. The Zulu are in their Golden Age, bringing
culture to those who fear and fear to those who oppose! Merely aspire, and lead now the mighty Zulus! :hammer:

Save file 350BC RBP8 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-Zulu-350BC.zip)

Good luck,
Charishaka, the Great Elephant

FORBIDDEN PALACE! Yay! :worship: Thanks to the great Charishaka!

I peeked at the save. I notice Construction is out there. I would suggest buying it from Egypt and rushing a colosseum for the liberated citizens of Parishaka to enjoy. Then the city can try to build a Great Wall as well.

Also, keep an eye out for grabbing Monarchy and the Hanging Gardens. The only cascade at the moment is two pretty lousy cities on the Great Lighthouse. Great Wall plus Hanging Gardens is as much culture as Sistine for 100 less shields, and we may even be able to get Sistine too.

I would not object to merging workers into Parishaka to take it to maximum size. Let it grow to 7 by itself, which it can do in two turns from now (when it reaches 6 next turn it can pull +10 food.) Of course, we need approximately 28.4 gazillion workers to hack out all this jungle. (If we want to set up a worker farm I won't object. It is funny, though, that Parishaka would be our best terrain site to do it. :crazyeye: I don't think we have any other sites capable of doing better than a worker every other turn, though.)

As for French cities - by regular rules we can take Rouen in a peace treaty, wait 20 turns, and come back for Tours. Our variant rule if strictly interpreted disallows that, though; I think I'd stick to the rule of only one war with France. If Rouen turns out to be impregnable, oh well; just keep Parishaka garrisoned, and the citizens will be converted to the glorious Zulu nationality quickly enough. There's already only two French citizens in the city.

With a massive power and economic advantage, it should be interesting to see how many medieval wonders we can stack up in the city. Can we get and stay far enough ahead to control the entire cascade?

CivGeneral, you are up. I'm on deck.

Those are good ideas T-Hawk. I did crank out a good half-dozen workers on my turn, expected before long to work then join Parishaka. In fact the only reasons I haven't done so yet is: major happiness issues, as it was mistreated by the French, and the fact that it's at about +6 good and doing nicely getting to size 7 itself. It would be highly appropriate for the rest of the kingdom to supply workers and population for our great city asap -- and to add native population to our second core. So a pre-sanitation worker farm sounds like a good idea to me.

The procurement of Construction, and possibly Great Wall, sounds very good too. I think we're due for Monarchy in about 30-34. Currency is out there but not cheap. With the GA economy boost, it would be particularly sweet to get marketplaces in asap in our best commerce cities. I would say to let Parishaka wait but a marketplace would allow it to reach size 12 in happiness, so would be very good.

CivGeneral, as far as the war on France... some more units should be healed or available soon, so take Tours asap. That will leave just island Rouen and Grenoble. Rush a galley and send two swords or similar to the island and park outside the city if we can land at all. Shuttle back and get more - don't loose the foothold if there is one. Only then can you go for Grenoble.

It's up to you when to take peace with England (as I mentioned, Construction is cheap there) - it depends how much we want to farm, but really, they're already out of steam and the units coming are only a small trickle.

Charis

PS in EDIT, responding to question below.
England has Currency, but given the insult at asking for it, they're probably the only ones who do. If a second civ can get it, it will make a nice construction broker.

Remember the colosseum will help Parishaka for happiness too, as will the Hanging Gardens if the city lands them. I wouldn't worry too much about a marketplace, but if we can slip it in between culture we can do it.

Currency is out there? I don't remember seeing it when I looked; I was looking for a brokerage between it and Construction...

Charis and T-hawk - Thanks for the tips :). Ill take it into note when I am on Turn 0.

@Charis - May I ask where did you get the pack to display that wonder discription

Ive Got the game, Since I am working on another set of turns for my Emperor Game, The Timline and Post would be eather posted late night tonight or Tomorrow.

CivGeneral,

Ah yes, those graphics! I've used them SO long I forget they're not standard. The wonder overlays got noted by a reader recently when it gave the wrong info on one of the wonders.

General answer:
The CF Customization forum, subforum Graphics Mods is THE place to go for this kind of cool stuff:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=61

For interface graphic changes specifically, there is a sticky showing previews of the good ones:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46100#post811351

As I look over the previews, I *think* I use the following -- in each case I've backup-copied the Art in the original Civ3 folder and replaced it with a graph modpack version. The PtW search path looks to the original civ directory, so these carry through automatically in PtW too (except of course on new wonders, etc.)

Wonder Screens - Il Mafioso's version
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7630

Build Queue Icons by Nemo

Population Heads with Larger Mood Badges by EvanCiv -- Large (15x15) colored mood smiley on citizens (a must, imho)

I was also using an 'advisor' graphic pack, but the Mrs' requested I return to 'classic' advisors :p

I use an older version of Snoopy's terrain modpack (before the sea color got way blue)

I use a 'straight railroads' graphics mod as well. (Civ2 style)

Finally, SkankyBurns "Easy to see" Resource mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15022

These just change graphics, they're not mods in the sense of changing the rules.

I hope that helps...
Charis

Originally posted by Charis
Wonder Screens - Il Mafioso's version
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7630

Just remember that those civ traits listed on the right of the wonder screen are incorrect and come from the pre-release version of Civ3. Rome - Militaristic and Industrious? China - Industrious and Scientific? Don't go relying on that information if you want to trigger a wonder-based golden age! :lol:

The wonder overlays got noted by a reader recently when it gave the wrong info on one of the wonders.

Now guess who that "reader" was ;) ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

My favourite from this screen (and a definite ;) at the present hum...."events" let's say...hum... :
America Expansionist ...and Expansionist !

Due to cercamstances that has just happened yesterday. I would have to be skipped. THe reason is that yesterday, I just found out that the refrigerator (Frezzer part had stoped working properly).
Yesterday my family had to look for a new Refrigeratior to replace the old one. Today, I have to be ready at anytime to help with the instalation. In which prevented me from starting the game. I would not get a chance to play my 10 turns. Hopefully by the time I get the save again. Everything would be back to normal.

CivGeneral <- Skipped due to Technical difficulties with a certan household appliance and helping with the instalation of a certan household appliance

CivG do you live in the US...or in Germany ?
I can not for the life of me imagine people delivering and installing refrigerators on Sundays ! :lol:

Originally posted by Skyfish
CivG do you live in the US...or in Germany ?
I can not for the life of me imagine people delivering and installing refrigerators on Sundays ! :lol:

I live in the US,

Luckly my parents has a truck to deliver it. Now bringing it up a 1/2 flight of stairs would be another story :s. Hense they require my help to bring it up. Luckly my Step Father can install it, just plug it it in and attach the water :).

PariShaka? :lol: I can tell who coined that term. :p

- Sirian

Anyways, that would make me up. Got it, can play late tonight.

Good luck T-Hawk, I just hope the game works out well

CivGeneral is still helping with the instalation of the water line to the ice maching to the fridge

Inherited turn:

One problem with my plan: the Great Wall already exists, in London. :p I still want to get those Hanging Gardens in Parishaka, though.

Not worth it to make peace with England to buy Currency at monopoly, and I'll also wait for a brokerage between that and Construction.

As for the settler, I think our best bet is two cities to refill that jungle. Our current settler heads to the ex-Dijon spot, and I order another settler in Lyons (let's get those French nationals out of there) to fill in along that river.

BTW, with what military exactly am I supposed to take Tours? We have but six swordsmen left and most of them are down by England...

==========

330 BC: France now has Monarchy. This means that Parishaka's current build is going to be the Hanging Gardens; no time for a colosseum first.

Now I see our southern settler; where is he trying to go? Those two ivory are already ours anyway. England won't settle close enough to steal them. I'd rather have this settler make a useful city than in bad land on our border, distracting us in preventing it from flipping. He heads north, into the jungle, and Lyons' settler goes west to the coast there.

Zimbabwe continues to produce an impi every turn for my entire reign.


310 BC: Was Charis or a rogue impostor at the helm? I have to interrupt four workers doing something automatic at Rheims. It wasn't a goto order, either.

Massive Barbarian Uprising near Ulundi?! Well, that means that Currency got around at least...


290 BC: Grr. England, Egypt, and France all have all of Monarchy, Currency, and Construction, and India has none. Babylon won't talk with us. No brokering available yet, so I'll still bide my time...

And there's a barbarian camp with 8 horses in the middle of the jungle between Lyons and Ulundi. Well, I start sending (mostly newly-produced) swords there to clean it up.


270 BC: A French boat landed one archer next to Bapedi, and our warrior there kills it.


250 BC: Barbarian camp dispersed, three horses are left next to Ulundi but the city's got two impi and a sword on defense, and those hold up fine. (Actually, I think I forgot to reassign them from Ulundi to somewhere useful; next leader please do that.)

Parishaka riots due to an increase in war weariness; oops. Lux to 30%.


230 BC: Babylon STILL won't talk and there's still no brokering available.


210 BC: Babylon will talk. They have Construction, which we could get for free by trading them Republic, but I don't want to speed our largest rival into a better government (he doesn't have Monarchy either.)

So what I do is make peace with Babylon, buy Currency from Egypt for 220 gold and resell it plus 80 gold to Babylon for Construction. That's the Middle Ages for us, so we can look for brokerage deals between Middle Ages techs and Monarchy (for the Hanging Gardens.)

I forgot Babylon is scientific; that puts them also into the Middle Ages and they pull Monotheism for free. Republic at last-civ can't buy Monotheism at monopoly, though.


190 BC: Our elite swords finally arrive at Tours.

170 BC: We inflict much damage on Tours. It survives with an archer with 2 HP.

We also kill three English archers this turn.


150 BC: At long last, Tours falls to Zulu forces. We had four elite victories in taking the city, but no Great Leader.


==========

Next leader can decide whether to keep trying to eliminate France, or whether to accept Grenoble plus Monarchy for peace. War weariness and "Stop the aggression" unhappiness is holding our economy back a bit, and free Monarchy would be nice, although eliminating the flip risks would also be nice.

We're still at war with England and may as well stay so to keep that civ crippled and to fish for Leaders. Remember our variant restriction: no military operations in enemy territory.

I was farming workers out of Hlobane and Swazi; they can each make a worker every two turns if carefully managed (at least in Golden Age.) We still need about 23.4 gazillion more, though.

Parishaka is four turns away from the Hanging Gardens. Keep an eye out for a brokerage between Monotheism and Monarchy; if one doesn't appear in the next four turns, you'll have to buy Monarchy at full price. Babylon is currently still holding a monopoly on Monotheism. After the Hanging Gardens, Parishaka must of course get a cathedral and colosseum rushed, and hopefully we can pull a Great Leader for the Sistine Chapel. (Cascade from the Hanging Gardens through Sun Tzu's could conceivably take Sistine before Parishaka gets to build it. Let's hope Parishaka builds the HG before anyone gets Feudalism.)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-150bc.zip

Cartouche Bee, I believe you're up now. Good luck!

Looks like a good turn there T-Hawk. Automated actions?!?! You're right it must be an imposter, I didn't use any. Perhaps it was a ctrl-R? :cool: (That one IS getting a lot of use in my games now :P )

> BTW, with what military exactly am I supposed to take Tours?
> We have but six swordsmen left and most of them are down by England...

Why, build them of course! GA Power! Picture how much of a problem England's sneak attack was. We had *all* troops up North or some in jungle area, and England was nice enough to give me 'warning signs' of a sneak attack. If I ignored that our western city would have fallen (instead, an Impi shuffle to defend it brought on the golden age) Every new unit and several existing units rushed over for what was expected to be an onslaught. England has had no war and has a decent sized empire, it should be painful right? Dribs, just dribs.

Good moves with the city plans and with waiting for brokering ops. I also like the plan of fishing England. Even if they bring in allies, it will be from overseas and so would be ineffective except for fishing.

> Next leader can decide whether to keep trying to eliminate
> France, or whether to accept Grenoble plus Monarchy for peace.

Ouch, that means the capital shifted to the tiny island? One option would be to ally with an AI from the other mainland. That would make them scramble to assault the island, disrupt their peaceful build-up, and perhaps keep that civ from allying against us (no biggie now that Babylon 'war' is over) Then again if they botched the invasion or ignored the treaty that would rot. France might even get a tech to give as concession if it went 20 turns. War weariness won't further increase after we capture Grenoble, if we do go for capture. I doubt I would try this route, but thought it worth mentioning.

Oh, Cartouche is up? Nevermind, he's going to build a galley and 'take care of business'. Ah... now that I think about it, I *know* that I would take them out for sure. One of Shaka's life motto's was "Never leave and enemy behind, or he might rise up
and strike you from behind." If we ever see a city flip, consider this prophecy of Charishaka! :hammer:

Charis

France is still alive? Hahaha, I'll get two navel attacks set up (Elites only for the capitol, GL fishing and Grenoble is only approachable by sea also under the rules of the variant) and squash them and any galleys they have (I hope). Should do wonders for WW also.

Parishaka only needs 4 turns under GA to have enough shields for Hanging Gardens, so Monarchy is a must in time to capture that event. I'll buy it from Egypt if I have to.

Preturn:

Primary concern is how to end the war with France.

Rouen
Tours will build a galley and it will need to be cash rushed in 3 turns, but for now we have troop healing required. It will be razed, I don't want to maintain a token harbor city.

Grenoble
We have 2 swords on patrol in the area but they need transport to get into position. Isipezi will change to galley and cash rush next turn.


Hanging Gardens needs to be built before too long and Monarchy will be made accessible in time to achieve that wonder.

Building up the Empire:
I go to the domestic advisor and review the situation by ordering cities by commerce. Our long term prosperity will be driven by commerce, the cities at the top of the list will be primped, those at the bottom of the list will provide essentials like workers or military. Therefore when workers become available, they will be channeled to the top cities needs and interlocking road systems.

Ulundi is in desperate need of jungle clearing.
Zimbabwe needs mines in the hills for future productivity.

Changes in build orders, to suit my turns, not meant to imply the other orders were not correct.

Zimbabwe changes to marketplace.
Isandhlwana -> marketplace.
Bapedi can't grow too much until the jungle is cleared so, marketplace.
Tugela ->marketplace
Orleans with temple already, marketplace. Will help with despair, No?
Swazi -> harbor
Intombe - the cut to workers and military no change.
Nandi fills in the gaps with temple. No change
Rheims also fills in the gaps. No change.
Hlobane -> horseman.
Ngome ->catapult
Umtata -> Impi
Chartres -> Impi
Marseilles -> warrior.

Redistribution of forces:
I want to get horsemen off city defense and Impi spread across the coasts. Elite units that are not to be involved in the elimination of France will be directed to the front with England.

IBT Spot French galley going for the capitol. English archers advance towards Intombe.

130BC
Rheims temple->catapult for border defense
Umtata Impi-> worker MM so not starving, our new scientist!
2 additions offered for the Palace.
Isipezi cash rushes galley for 88 gold.
Swordsman takes out English spear roaming our capitol's lands?
Trade maps around.
Peek in cities reveal Golden Age to end next turn.
Permit governor to control down turn in economy and the control the very corrupt small cities MM to preserve the scientist and 2 other bad off cities.
Decide to rush galley in tours to deliver a landing party before the elites go over.
Move some horsemen into more strategic positions for counter attacks and other minor troop movements.


IBT Quiet except English archers. Golden Age ends. income drops to 39.

110BC
Tours galley->marketplace Isipezi galley->worker
Governor saves us some production, Parishaka is starving and hmmm, some one added French worker to the city. Bad for happiness. But enough of the governor, job done.
We battle 3 English archers, suffer no loses and a horseman goes elite.

IBT English archer gets lucky on our sword.

90BC
Cat shot misses Rouen. Just worker movements and troops repositioning.

IBT French galley moves to the north east of Rouen.

70BC Ulundi marketplace->horseman Lyons temple->marketplace Chartres Impi-> worker nandi temple->marketplace Amatikulu Impi->Impi
Cat shot misses Rouen. 2 Elite swords arrive at Rouen

IBT Babs start Hanging Gardens
50BC
Hlobane horseman-> horseman Ngomecatapult-catapult Swazi disorder duh!
First elite Sword wins and produces Zwelithini Second vanquishes Rouen's last defender and we raze it to the ground.
We land at Grenoble. however, with the French galley at large the elimination is not near, so I want to get Monarchy out of the way and get the Gardens. Parishaka-if I change to coliseum I would waste 182 shields, that means I need 18 shields to complete next turn. I'm only producing 16 so MM for 18. Now England is in turtle mode so if I declare peace I can get Monarchy for pretty cheap. But I can get Feudalism and then trade that around and get Monarchy and Monotheism. I could then use the Great leader to rush Sun Tzu (not really, I'd save it for Sistine but has great T-hawk shock value ;)). Then sell mono back to England and maybe have enough to rush a culture building after Hanging Gardens, plus have Sistine in the bag assuming we can acquire the tech in the future.

So peace with England and purchase Feudalism for 790. Egypt Monotheism for Feudalism and 6GPT. Babs trade Monarchy for Feudalism. England gives us 310 for Monotheism. OK so for net about 500 we got 3 techs but evened the race for now. India can't get into the trades but I'll check their status next turn in case the make some GPT available. I switch to Hanging Gardens.

WW is up a notch so I'll raise the lux rate to tide us over till HG comes on line.
Whew!

IBT French galley keeps moving across the top of the continent to the east. Looks like we have to chase it else we could still have a culture flip, even after we get their capitol. Cascades to lighthouse and Sun Tzu.

30BC
Marseilles warrior->catapult Swazi harbor-.galley for now incase I can get a swat at the French.
Seige at Grenoble - our swords win 2 battles, one goes elite. We gain 30 gold from the French. The French are defeated! No settler on that galley. Swazi changed to worker. Lower Lux rate to 10%. Run governor to eradicate WW (just a game sort of bug, and a way around it). Then take governor off. This allows me to MM my cities appropriately.

Switches
Tuglea ->worker.
Rheims ->courthouse
Hlobane ->aqueduct

We are upto 105GPT, slightly more than at the end of the GA. OK, a break before going on.

IBT zz

10BC
Zimbabwe marketplace->Cathedral
Ulundi horseman->temple
Zunguin worker->worker
Palace gets another upgrade.
GPT upto 115, cash 511 but not enough to rush cath. Next turn.

10AD
Tuglea worker->worker
Umfolozi courthouse->harbor
Rush cath at Parishaka for 496 Gulp!

IBT Babs build the Great Lighthouse
30AD
Isandhlwana marketplace->horseman
Swazi worker->aqueduct
Gnome switch to courthouse
Parishaka Cathedral->coliseum

50AD
Not enough for cash rush at Parishaka, next turn.
One galley has done it's job so, I disband it.


Notes for next leader.
129GPT now, we should rush coliseum, next turn. We are of course the primary power and can play a builder game. We might even consider to take the brunt of the research once Education rolls up so we can lead the race to the wonders. We might even be able to out research the AI without any libraries right now with the economy we are starting to generate. :)

Oh, yes and we got a GL sitting around waiting for Sistine. :)

RBP 50AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RPB8-50AD.SAV)

Good turn. I had the empire still mostly in military mode; switching it over to commerce is a fine decision. If you find governors useful, go ahead, although make sure you clear all of them before passing off (looks like you did.)

Colosseum costs 120, not 100; so if swapping to colosseum would waste 182 shields the city was already at 302. I usually use either a worker (10 shields) or Wealth (1 shield) to find out exactly how many shields a city has and needs.

3-for-1 tech brokering plus recouping half of the cost you paid: excellent, of course! The opportunities weren't there on my turn; way to bide our time. :goodjob:

great T-hawk shock value

:confused: :eek: :cry: :rolleyes: :crazyeye:

Can Parishaka make 20 shields in a turn? If so, this turn we can swap to marketplace, cash rush it, and swap back to colosseum which the city will finish building this turn.

Future plans - I guess Parishaka can build its marketplace while waiting for Theology to become available. After that, I'd recommend waiting on research until the cascade gets broken. If Sun Tzu's is finished before Invention becomes available, that will happen; if so, I would suggest beelining research to Astronomy to grab Copernicus (which can be hard to get in cascade from the earlier wonders), then Music Theory of course.

If cascade goes from Sun Tzu's to Leonardo's, I'd keep our research turned off until Leonardo's gets done somewhere. Do keep Parishaka prebuilding a Palace in case somebody does turn up with Astronomy or Music Theory before that happens - don't try to get in Parishaka's University in the middle of a wonder cascade.

Could we try to build Leonardo's somewhere ourselves (Ulundi?) to help kill the cascade?

Skyfish is up. Remember we're still on patch 1.14 (not a choice for Skyfish, of course ;) )

No! I played on 1.21 again. You got me again. :( Sorry, I can't play those turns again. Maybe Skyfish can play them and just skip me. They will likely be alot different on the old patch, techs anyway I'm sure.

Argh. Skyfish, I suppose you've tried all possibilities to get your game to run 1.21? (Rumor has it that the US patch works for some European players.) Have you tried just substituting in a 1.21 Civilization3.exe file? And I think there's one DLL that changes from 1.14 to 1.21. Skyfish, if you want to try this, PM me and I'll work out a way to get it to you.

I'd hate to lose Cartouche's efforts on that turn, but I'd also hate to have to drop Skyfish. (I know everyone else in the game can run 1.21.)

I've slept on it, I could run it again tonight, on 1.14. The actions are noted and the time would be less. My mistake, so I'll buck up.

Alright, go ahead with that. Do try hard to get us another Great Leader. :D Skyfish, you're still welcome to try and get 1.21 running if you want, and if you do we'll permanently run it on 1.21.

Think I'll affectionately call this my *Groundhog Day* SG, but I never get a chance to improve the play.:) I get to play again and the leave all my mistakes like letting Swasi go into disorder or my less than accurate calculations about Hanging Gardens. Or losing a sword when I should have attacked with a horseman incase it would retreat on the counter attack and save a unit. Or how about putting 5 workers clearing one jungle tile (does not divide out right does it). Ugh, I could go on and on with mistakes I made, yet had a decent outcome. However, without the Great Leader and the tech trade, it would just be ho hum.

BTW, in another game (not SG), I tried out that trick of setting the governor to Manage Citizen Moods for all cities, then immediately taking it off. Works like a charm to reset all the cities when you do something like acquire a luxury and lower the luxury tax. I never thought of doing that. Thanks :goodjob:

Hrmm... I don't get it. Why would you want to let the governer have control, even only instantly?

If you're saying the problem is that the faces don't show accurately their condition after a lux deal is made or cut... the (better) solution is to bump tax rate up a notch then right back down. This "refreshes" the faces correctly. (I'm not sure if this is well known, or was in fact the problem)

If you mean you want to fire specialists now that you have new lux online - the gov would always choose clowns if any specialist is needed at all. That means you must manually change about half of those to taxmen. In other words, you have to look at each city individually anyway.

So what you mention is better than going into riot, but... I still don't see why I would turn that governor on even briefly. Am I missing something?

Charis

I used it for two events on this turn (a third is when changing government).

I controlled the decline from Golden Age where the conversion of declining commerce to luxuries is just too hard to calculate. (This automatically put 2 workers as entertainers in our wonder city after the GA, I would not know that is what I have to do, and cannot afford to lose the production).

The other event I used if for was to have the program recalculate the WW. After I finished off the French, I still had WW that was not actually supposed to be there, 33% to 50% WW was a fairly big concern. You can't manage your city correctly if residual effects are still hanging around, perhaps the movement of luxuries slider would have performed the function for me, that would be better, I will gladly try that.

I have noticed that the governor, if only controlling mood, does not rearrange your workers orders unless a mood adjustment is required, so basic MM is retained. It is true that existing specialists may be changed a bit but normally you don't carry too many of those and the primary purpose is to ensure against revolts and have as many workers in each city working, yes you still have to MM but alot of basic city clicking is performed and the specialist stick out like sore thumbs. So I only use this when I know that there are going to be many adjustments required or I cannot predict exactly what is required to keep an event, that I know is about to occur, from damaging productivity by revolt.

Some of the junk habits you pick up from playing civs that have waaay tooo many cities. :)

Played on plan and about 3 turns in it was apparent that things were going to differ slightly.

90BC We get the Great Leader from the swordsman that I lost in the other patch.

Later my tech deals went through although not quite as well as previously noted.


So we are back in business. Skyfish, you may want to consider going to 0% lux next turn after the coliseum completes in Parishaka. That will boost income another 30GPT with very little loss by MM in Zimbabwe. Then just build and collect cash until theology comes up and Sistine completes. You could be looking at about 200GPT by the end of your turns.

We can hand build a 600 shield wonder every 30 turns. So the best near ones are Bach(6/600),Shakespears(8/400) and Newton's(6/400), followed by University(4/200) and Copernicus(4/400). Self research to the closest culture tech might almost just time out perfect for us. Isandhlwana does not look like much right now and Zimbabwe may our better choices as a cascade blockers.

Good Luck!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RPB8-114-50AD.SAV

OK, good. To refresh on my earlier comments:

Future plans - I guess Parishaka can build its marketplace while waiting for Theology to become available. After that, I'd recommend waiting on research until the cascade gets broken. If Sun Tzu's is finished before Invention becomes available, that will happen; if so, I would suggest beelining research to Astronomy to grab Copernicus (which can be hard to get in cascade from the earlier wonders), then Music Theory of course.

If cascade goes from Sun Tzu's to Leonardo's, I'd keep our research turned off until Leonardo's gets done somewhere. Do keep Parishaka prebuilding a Palace in case somebody does turn up with Astronomy or Music Theory before that happens - don't try to get in Parishaka's University in the middle of a wonder cascade.

Skyfish << UP NOW (haven't heard from you during this whole debate, hope you're out there)
Charis << On Deck

Sorry guys I was away on business ...in Paris :lol: :lol:
(true!)

Will get it and play tonight...
Will also try to patch I am so SORRY about bogging you down like this, I'll just retire if this goes on too long :(

Special thanks to CB for replaying, I feel like I am such a pain.

It's okay, Skyfish, it isn't your fault that Infogrames won't let you play on 1.21. As long as we all remember it's 1.14 (I'll try to post a notice after each player), we're fine.

My take on the Wonder tree, for this situation.

Once we get Theology we rush Sistine, that's obvious.

I think we then need to rush research on Education and get a university for the culture, ASAP. Then if we push our research through to the industrial age (picking up Free Artistry on the way, in a timely fashion for wonder bulding) we could get could be researching Steam in 60 or so turns after Theology/Education. 60 turns is just right to pick up Cops, Shakespeare's and Newton's. Bach's could be reserved as a GL rush (best case for a 600 shield wonder) or built by one of our wonder blockers. We could be 5-6 techs ahead of the AI by the time we get to the Industrial Age.

Thing is, if we zip up to steam we can enhance our building power, get industrialization and get a rail supported factory humming in our *wonderful* city.

Do not sell the AI techs, resources and luxuries. Just keep them sputtering with their current pathetic states. We can buy techs from them but only once they get cheap or we really need it.

The counterpoint to that argument:

What we want now is for the global tech pace to run as SLOW as possible, so that our city has time to clean up on as many wonders as possible. 60 turns from now, we could have your 3 wonders and be building rails; or we could be building rails 100 turns from now and also have Bach's and just maybe Smith's. There's no hurry to build the university; it doesn't matter much at all if it's rushed in 700 AD instead of 400 AD, as compared to possessing or missing Bach's.

This isn't the GOTM; it isn't about blitzing past the AIs to a win; it's about taking our time and building our city as carefully and completely as we can. :goodjob: All the Industrial and later wonders should be ours no matter what and when we get there; so we should take our time to collect as many medieval wonders as we can.

The AIs aren't up to our level, but Babylon is not pathetically weak at all. They will still be pushing the game research at a fair pace for some time to come; pushing research ourselves will only get Parishaka fewer wonders.

We only speed up the tech pace much, if we sell the techs to the AI. Staying out infront of the AI just makes it easier for us to have a head start on the wonder builds. Anyway, just a thought, probably the same result in the end anyway, fast or slow does not really matter to me, game won.

Aha despite very precise instructions as to what I should do next set of turns there is still a debate and an important decision about Science progress, ha ! Nice !
Sorry I am a bit late but will post very soon.

Early : Parishaka builds Colosseum in 70AD then goes to Marketplace, lux lowered to 0 and MM going on. Babs start Sun Tzu (70AD)
Keep on producing workers in fishing vill