This thread is somewhat of a spoiler for Gotm18-Celts so if you have not yet completed that game but still plan on submitting then you should probably avoid this thread.

This thread is for player timelines and progress reports to track and score progress of this Quick Game so that you can compare results to the real Qsc18-Celts game when they are released in about 10 days.

This game is setup for you on Deity difficulty. DO NOT SUBMIT this game to the GOTM or QSC scoring submissions or a big burly caveman will come to your house and smash your computer into a thousand tiny bits. It is very important that you do not post about this game in the main Gotm discussion threads at this time. But after the GOTM game closes you may freely contribute observations to the discussion of the Gotm18-Celts results and Qsc18 Results.

The way you should play the game for the first 120 turns is to think carefully about what you are doing and take some key timeline notes about what you do in the game. You can find lots of good examples of timelines in the QSC results threads in the main GOTM forum.

Divide your time line up into nice concise 30 turn blocks of time plus you want to take a break exactly at 1000bc. Here is a brief schedule outline:

turn 30 - first timeline break (no save file required)
turn 60 - second timeline break - 1525bc save file required
turn 80 - 1000bc save file required to compare to the real Qsc
turn 90 - 775bc third timeline break - (no save file required)
turn 120 - fourth timeline break - 170bc save file required (fixed date from 570)

You need to complete play an report your timeline events through turn60 by the end of the day on Friday, April 25th if at all possible.
Hold off and do not post any information about turns 61 through 120 until after Monday April, 28th. This will provide a little break for any discussion and will also help to keep the group together abit.

After you complete to turn 120, there will be a short discussion break and then you will be free to play the rest of the game if you wish.

We will use the QSC scoring format to designate a winner and a runner up for this Deity group when we reach the turn 120 mark.

REMEMBER that you must have read and followed the setup instructions for Gotm18-Celts in order for this game to run on your software without crashing. We know the game works perfectly so 99.995% of all crashes will absolutely be traced to failing to read and follow the setup instructions.

Good luck in your game and remember to share and have fun. ;)

Here are your save files:

Redux18 Deity for PTWv1.14f or PTW v1.21f (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/redux18_start_ptw_deity.sav)

Redux18 Deity for Civ3v1.29 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/redux18_start_v1_29_deity.sav)

As usual, I'm desparately trying to complete the GOTM before the deadline. If I can eek out the time, I'll post my turns 1-60 by Friday. I've downloaded the PTW version. If I don't make it, I'll post to let you all now and eagerly read through the timelines of those of you who have more R/L time than I do.

Guess I'm first to post. Here are my first 30 turns. I probably played them too quickly as usual.

1: 4000 BC - Move settler NW to get fish in range. Move worker SW to bonus grass tile.

2: 3950 BC - Entremont founded, set to build warrior. Worker told to road BG. Science turned off.

5: 3800 BC - Worker told to build mine on BG.

7: 3700 BC - Entremont warrior->warrior. Plan is to send him to Rome->Iroquois->Greece->China->England. Therefore he heads E/SE.

11: 3500 BC - Citizen moved from BG to lake, warrior in 1 either way and 1 more commerce.

12: 3450 BC - Entremont warrior->settler. Entremont grows to 2. Lux set to 10%. Plan is to send this warrior to Carthage->France->Aztecs->Japan->Egypt.

13: 3400 BC - 8 Iroquois warriors appear outside Entremont.(contact #1) Roman warrior appears outside Entremont as well.(#2)

14: 3350 BC - I spot Greek SoD (4 hoplites, 4 warriors) west of Entremont.(#3) Greece and Iroquois have 6 techs each, Rome only has Alphabet and lacks Ceremonial Burial. I buy Pottery from Iroquois for 4gpt to prevent them from declaring war hopefully. Trade Ceremonial Burial and Pottery to Rome for Alphabet and 10 gold. I decide to try something unusual this game and build my first settler before a granary. I know I probably shouldn't be trying new things in a deity QSC but oh well. :)

16: 3250 BC - SoD's appear to be going north to the barb camps.

17: 3200 BC - I spot Utica.(#4) Carthage has Bronze Working, Masonry, and Mysticism. Greece and Iroquois are up the Wheel but I can't afford it.

19: 3100 BC - Entremont grows to 3. Lux to 30%. Man talk about bonus workers the AI has. As if they don't settle fast enough on deity I can only imagine with all these extra workers.

20: 3050 BC - Entremont settler->granary. Lux to 0%.

23: 2900 BC - Aztec jag apears outside Entremont.(#5) :eek:

24: 2850 BC - Aztecs have Bronze Working and Masonry only. Still can't afford The Wheel or Mysticism.

25: 2800 BC - Alesia founded by southern fish, set to worker.

26: 2750 BC - I spot a French warrior.(#6) France has same techs as Greece and Iroquois. I still can't afford any techs.

27: 2710 BC - Entremont grows to size 2 again. Lux to 10%. Carthage and Aztecs have the Wheel now.

28: 2670 BC - I spot Japanese warrior.(#7) Jeez they're all coming to me I don't even need to go find them. They all want a piece of the barb action. Japanese have Bronze Working, Masonry, and the Wheel, they lack Mysticism. I still can't buy Mysticism.

30: 2590 BC - Nothing much more.

With all the AI's converging on the barb camps they're all going to have contact really fast. Add in the bonus workers and this is like Deity Plus, will be hard to stay in it. I look forward to the challenge though.

edit: Added contact #'s.

4000 BC - This is the first time I have ever replayed the same map. How much will it affect my play?
Entermont is formed, and a warrior is ordered. The mandatory pottery is ordered at an absurd 36 turns.

3750 BC - Warrior #2 is ordered.

3550 BC - Warrior #3 is ordered.

3450 BC - We already get contact #1 - Rome. No trades are possible.

3400 BC - Settler #1 is ordered.

3350 BC - We get contact #2 - the Iroquois. They are already ahead of me, so no tech trading is possible.

3150 BC - We get contact #3 - the Greeks. They are already ahead of me, so no tech trading is possible.

3000 BC - Archer #1 is ordered.

2950 BC - Pottery is completed.

2900 BC - Alesia is formed by the coastal fish square and a granary is ordered.

2800 BC - We get contact #4 - Carthage. We finally get to do some trading. I ship Burial, $4/turn and $12 to Carthage and get Masonry in return.
We then trade Masonry to Rome for Bronze working and $8.

2670 BC - Our first extra worker is ordered.

2550 BC - We go back to military with another warrior.

2350 BC - We get contacts #5/6 with France / China even though we can't see any units. Is writing already out there?

4000 BC (1): Settle Entremont on the start and order up a warrior and start on Pottery at 100%. Due in 36 turns :eek:.

3950 BC (2): worker starts mining bg. to the SE.

3900 BC (3): zzzz

3850 BC (4):

3800 BC (5):

3750 BC (6): Build a warrior start another. Warrior will head SW.

3700 BC (7): Warrior is moving SW. away from the capital.

3650 BC (8): Mine completes start road. Warrior moves a top a hill and see more Bg.

3600 bC (9): Continue SW.

3550 BC (10): Warrior completes start another. This warrior heading SE.

3500 BC (11): Entremont grows and up lux to 20%, continue exploring. Boarders expand.

3450 BC (12): First contact with a Roman warrior. Sell him CB for 10 gold. He will not give up alphabet as would be expected.

3400 BC (13): A stack of 4 Iroquios warriors come out of the fog. And very quickly we are behind, Pottery, BW, and Alphabet. Scratch that there are 8 warriors in the area. New MP in Entremont allows lux to drop back to 0. continue with warrior production for now. Pottery due in 15 at 100%.

3350 bC (14): Continue exploring sw and SE.

3300 BC (15): more of the same.

3250 BC (16): A forth warrior completes and start on a temple as a pre build for the granary.

3200 BC (17): Spot green boarder to the SW and red to the SE. MM for commerce and lower research to 9 turns.

3150 BC (18): Contact the Greeks and find that we are down Masonry as well as Pottery etc.

3100 BC (19): Exploration to the West continues.

3050 BC (20): More of the same.

3000 BC (21): Capital grow to size 3, temple in 3 just in time for a switch a granary in 3. Spot a hut to the West.

2950 BC (22): Iroquios now have the wheel.

2900 BC (23): Learn Pottery start on BW. Switch to granary completed in 6 turns. Pop the hut and get Pictish warrior.

2850 BC (24): Kill one barb but we are redlined. Flee to the mountains.

2800 bC (25): zzzz

2750 BC (26): Contact the Aztecs across the great river.

2710 bC (27): Granary will complete next turn. MM to use the lake for commerce.

2670 BC (28): Granary completes start on settler. Make contact with Carthage.

2630 bC (29): Greeks start Pyramids.

2590 BC (30): The Aztecs follow suit. Settler is due in 4 turns. Rome is not too far ahead but the others are getting bigger and pulling away in tech.

Here are my first 30 or 31 moves. Is 4000 BC turn 1 or 0? Can you tell I am a silly computer programmer?

4000 BC(0): Entremont settled on the starting spot. Worker heads N.
3950 BC(1): Worker starts on a road. Science to 90% to work on Pottery. Building a warrior.
3900 BC(2): Zzzz
3850 BC(3): Zzzz
3800 BC(4): Worker starts on a mine.
3750 BC(5): Warrior built and heads SW.
3700 BC(6): Warrior heads Westward
3650 BC(7): Same
3600 BC(8): Same
3550 BC(9): Same
3500 BC(10): 2nd Warrior built and explores SE. 1st warrior spots carthage warrior and the edge of their lands. Third warrior started. Lux rate raised to support pop size of 2 in entremont.
3450 BC(11): Talk to Carthage. Trade warrior code for pottery with pottery having 20 turns to go. I am unsure if this is entirely wise, but the slow growth means a granary is pretty important. I also don't want to get into an early war with Carthage, so warrior code is hopefully ok. He would get it soon anyway. Rome also shows up. I trade pottery and ceremonial burial for alphabet. Rome and our celts are now equal in tech. For Carthage, he has masonry and I have ceremonial burial. Move warrior back into Entremont to remove the need for luxury and switch to working on writing at minimal (20%) science (it is 40 turns either way and I don't see us growing fast). I am now making 3 gpt.
3400 BC(12): 1st warrior is still heading westward. 2nd is guarding Entremont.
3350 BC(13): Well things certainly are busier on Deity than on Monarch. A greek phalanx is seen near Carthage and 3 iroquois warriors are marching north. Iroquois has all my techs + bronze working. Greece has all my techs, plus bronze working and masonry. I build a 3rd warrior and switch to granary. 1st warror sees a stack of 4 greek warriors and 4 hopolites. Remind me not to fight greece any time soon. 3rd warrior heads southward
3300 BC(14): First warrior continues mostly west and a bit south, second warrior guards, third warrior continues S. They stop on hills and mountains when they are nearby.
3250 BC(15): Same
3200 BC(16): Carthage will now sell Masonry for 4 gpt 20 gold and ceremonial burial. I take it. Trade Masonry to the Iroquois for bronze working and 2 gold. Trade Masonry to Rome for 40 gold (since we are now at 0 gpt and I spent my reserve. I now have tech parity with the 4 known civs. We will see how long that lasts...
3150 BC(17): Warrior movement
3100 BC(18): Warrior movement
3050 BC(19): Warrior movement
3000 BC(20): Entremont is now size 3. Alter lux rate to suppress unhappiness (now at -1 gpt) Start roading and mining the BG 2 squares NW of Entremont for the 3rd citizen
2950 BC(21): (take snap shot of the world and save the game. Meant to do this at 3000BC).
2900 BC(22): Warrior 1 stumbles across Chinese warrior. They have all my techs plus wheel.
2850 BC(23): Warriors continue to move. Dyes have been seen far to the W. No real chance to get to them any time soon.
2800 BC(24): Worker finishes the road and gets rid of the -1 gpt. It will come back next turn when...
2750 BC(25): I finish the Granary! I decide to start on a settler right away. 5 turns to settler and growth.
2710 BC(26): Warrior movement
2670 BC(27): Warrior movement
2630 BC(28): Warrior movement
2590 BC(29): Warrior movement
2550 BC(30): Settler built. Settler and warrior head SW to found second city.

Well it's good to see some life in here.

It's hard to make many comparisons off these first 30 turns. We still only have 1-2 cities and the AI has a huge lead due to their starting settler and units. There are a few discrepancies though.

First is whether to build a settler first or a granary. It will be interesting to see which is more beneficial in this food-poor start.

Second, some of you appear to be playing as if you didn't have knowledge of the map. Myself, since everyone who signed up played GOTM18 and had knowledge of the map AFAIK, I decided to exploit that knowledge the best I could. I studied the map beforehand and planned out where I would put my cities. I moved my settler NW to pull the fish even though I shouldn't have known they were even there.

And that's the third one, whether moving the settler NW was helpful or harmful.

Greebley seems to be the best off techwise atm. I met Greece and Iroquois on the same turn as him and they both had 8 techs already, while in Greebley's game they only had 6 and 5 respectively. This made some good tech trading opportunites for him, while there was nothing I could do. I'm sure I'll get my opportunity to catch up later on though.

In 2590 BC my financial status is 92 gold at +2 gold per turn. My 4gpt deal to the Iroquois is due to end in 5 turns. My granary in Entremont is due in 6, and it will grow to 3 in 7. Alesia grows in 2 and will produce a worker in 5.

You are right. I am only using my memory of the start, which makes my game more "blind" than yours. I am unsure how big a difference that will make. I did remember (or see when I moved my worker?) the fish, but did not move because of it.

I suspect Iroquois techs are going to be a variable element for these games (If I remember right, they are expansionist ones). One thing I noticed was that the Iroquois had 3 towns very early on (basically a turn or two after I met them) when everyone else had two. I wouldn't be suprised if they got a settler or town instead of the tech they got in your game, which could lead to a very strong Iroquois in my game.

It might be an interesting exersize to see how random hut exploration affects an AI. I will keep an eye on Iroquois advancement and city count for my next 30 turns and then we can compare how they do.

Off Topic:
One strategy I have not yet seen mentioned is early methods that tell you who are the strongest AI before you get territory maps:
The obvious one is city counts.
The less obvious one is looking at the "top cities" very early on. The ones that grow fast have good starting locations in terms of growth and are somewhat more likely to become powerful, than those that are not on the list (by watching the list I imagine, you can also know when they first produce a settler and get an idea of their shield potential as well). I don't know the factors for determining which ones appear on the list (culture?), but I was guessing that at the start, size is the only thing that varies, and the top 5 cities will then belong to the best "growers".
This information is not tremendously useful, but could help (for example) when you have enough cash to buy a single "communication" from a that an AI knows. I meant to try this for this game, but forgot. Ah well.

A quick note on what order the contacts are made. My mistake was not going to find carthage first. Rome had only 1 tech I didn't and my CB was not going to get his alphabet. Meeting Carthage first was a great idea I find myself in a huge hole with no tech trades even remotely possible.

I am interested to see if going for a granary first before the settler is the best option. Those that got pottery from a trade should be in the best position.

I too am playing from memory and didn't even think about moving to the fish - whoops http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/other/11doh.gif

Hotrod

Originally posted by cracker
turn 30 - first timeline break (no save file required)
turn 60 - second timeline break - 1525bc save file required
turn 80 - 1000bc save file required to compare to the real Qsc
turn 90 - 775bc third timeline break - (no save file required)
turn 120 - fourth timeline break - 170bc save file required (fixed from 570)




Is turn 120 meant to be 170bc .
There is NOT 30 turns between 775bc and 570bc.

Oops, Lee you are correct that was a typo and is now fixed. -cracker

2230 BC- Entremont begins work on its granary.

1950 BC - Our first settler is ordered in Alesia.
We get contact #7 with the Aztecs. They are already ahead of me, so no tech trading is possible.
Some civs have writing, but none of them need any contact that I can offer.

1910 BC - I get screwed with the first AI demand for $21. With as far behind as I already am, I can't afford any cash loss. Deity on pangea is brutal for the tech pace.

1790 BC - We get contact #8 with Egypt. The pattern of nothing to trade continues.
However, Rome doesn't have contact so I give them contact Egypt, $39, and $2/turn for Mysticism. The sad part is not much of a discount, as it is fairly well known.
I sell contact to the Iroquois for $26

1750 BC - Entremont orders up a settler.

1675 BC - I achieve the contact #9 of Japan. The pattern continues of nothing to trade.
The question mark is where are the English this time around.
(I) Is this a repeat of my original game? Once again the Aztecs complete the Pyramids.

1650 BC - Lugdunum is formed.
We get to start trading maps, but this game they are all but worthless compared to the first.
We get total cash of $27 along with tm from Carthage, France and Rome.
This amount still lets my buy The Wheel from France for $58 and $2/turn.

1600 BC - Even with prior map knowledge, Rome beats me to the horse spot.
We begin the painful process of selling wm for $1 wherever I can to scrape to another tech.

1525 BC - Camulodunum is formed claiming one of the cow spots.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKENDTER-QSC18R3-1525BC.zip

Tell me if I'm including too much information, this is long.

32: 2510 BC - Alesia grows to 2. Lux to 30%.

33: 2470 BC - I spot English warrior.(#8) They only have Bronze Working on me.

35: 2390 BC - Alesia worker->granary. Lux to 10%.

36: 2350 BC - Entremont granary->settler. Our gpt deal to the Iroquois has ended. I buy Mysticism from France for 5gpt and 22g. I trade Mysticism and 33g to Aztecs for The Wheel. Trade contact with Japanese to Greece for contact with Chinese.(#9) Trade Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, and Pottery to China for Bronze Working and Masonry. Trade Mysticism and The Wheel to Rome for Iron Working and 10g. Only down Writing to Greece now.

37: 2310 BC - Entremont grows to 3. Lux to 30%.

38: 2270 BC - Aztecs learn Horseback Riding and Writing, Greece learns Horseback Riding, Carthage learns Writing. Aztecs and Greece both have contact with Egypt now. I have a monopoly on English contact atm. Carthage already settled a city in my core ring SW of Entremont. They have 6 cities already.

41: 2150 BC - Entremont grows to 4. Citizens moved to lake for extra commerce (settler in 1).

42: 2110 BC - Entremont settler->warrior. Lux to 20%. Settler sent east to grab horses before Rome hopefully. France and Japan have Writing and Horseback Riding now too. Iroquois only have Horseback Riding. Trade contact with English and 24 gold to France for Writing. Trade Writing to Iroquois for Horseback Riding and their 4 gold. Trade contact with English to Aztecs for contact with Egyptians(#10) and 58 gold. Trade contact with English to Greece for their 52 gold. I now have 161 gold and tech parity with the leaders.

44: 2030 BC - Entremont citizen moved from fish to BG (growth in 1, warrior in 1).

45: 1990 BC - Entremont warrior->settler. Warrior fortified. Rome claimed horses already of course.

46: 1950 BC - Alesia grows to 3. Lux to 50%. Warrior from Entremont sent to Alesia.

47: 1910 BC - Lugdunum founded east of Entremont. Not an ideal location but I didn't want to waste more time moving the settler around. Set to build warrior in 5, growth in 10. Entremont citizen moved from fish to bg again, growth in 2.

48: 1870 BC - Warrior arrives in Alesia. Lux down to 30%.

49: 1830 BC - Entremont grows to 4. Lux to 40%. Aztecs and France learn Mathematics and Philosophy.

50: 1790 BC - Entremont settler->warrior. Lux to 20%. Settler sent to NW. Shanghai completes the Colossus.

52: 1725 BC - Lugdunum warrior->worker. Warrior sent to Entremont. Entremont citizen moved from fish to bg. France learns Code of Laws. Japan learns Mathematics. Argh Carthage settled the gems to the north already! Carthage has surrounded Entremont already and we don't have our fourth city yet. This game will become warlike very quickly. Entremont switched to barracks instead of warrior. I trade Horseback Riding to England for their 35 gold. Trade contact with Chinese to Rome for 23 gold. Carthage demands contact with English and I give in.

53: 1700 BC - Camulodonum founded NW of Entremont on lake. Set to worker. Rome founds a city in my 1st ring which will also apply cultural pressure to 2 of my cities. Rome must die first. I have to get that iron source to the north. Alesia grows to 4. Lux to 40%.

54: 1675 BC - Entremont barracks->settler. Alesia's granary whipped for 1 pop / 20 shields. Rome has Philosophy now. Greece, Iroquois, Egypt, Aztecs and Carthage have Mathematics, Philosophy, and Map Making. Japan has Mathematics and Philosophy. France has all 3 plus Code of Laws. China has Philosophy. Damn they all trade for like 3 techs each between turns. I can't afford Map Making or Code of Laws, but my gpt deal to France ends in 2 turns. Aztecs build the Pyramids.

55: 1650 BC - Alesia granary->settler. Realize my world map is only worth 8 gold so I might as well sell it now and increase my gpt. I sell it around to all civ's that have Map Making for 22 gold total.

56: 1625 BC - Lugdunum worker->barracks. Exploring warrior arrives back in Alesia. Lux down to 20%. I can buy Map Making now and probably trade for every tech except Code of Laws. But I'd rather wait until I can buy Code of Laws so I can start researching towards Republic.

58: 1575 BC - Entremont grows to 4. Lux to 30%. Rome demands 32 gold. As much as I'd love to decline and sign some MA's against him I don't have any defense to hold him off.

59: 1550 BC - Entremont settler->spearman. Lux down to 20%. Send settler to the northern iron source I hope. France has Polytheism now. Aztecs, Greece, Egypt, and Carthage have Code of Laws. Iroquois have Polytheism and Code of Laws. I buy Code of Laws from France for 9gpt and 94 gold. I wish one of the Map Making civ's didn't have Code of Laws but oh well. Code of Laws to Japan for Mathematics and 13 gold. Mathematics to England for Philosophy and 3 gold. Research set to Republic at 10%. I have 176 gold and -3gpt now.

60: 1525 BC - As my settler moves northward I realize the Carthage city doesn't actually contain the gems yet, but it will upon cultural expansion. I'm not sure if I should risk a cultural battle on deity to claim them. Since it's so close to my capital and pretty far from Carthage I decide to risk it. I will have to keep that city garrisoned well at all times, at least until I can afford a war with Carthage. Alesia grows to 4. Lux to 40%.

Well I'm doing alright on the tech front, but the AI's are settling cities even faster than normal because of the workers. The AI has already settled a few cities in my 1st ring. Rome is the only civ I have a chance of having a successful war against, but I have no military to speak of yet.

Here's my save file, Shillen-QSC18r3-1525_BC.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Shillen-QSC18r3-1525_BC.zip).

edit: Added contact #'s.

2590 BC (30): nada

2550 BC (31): continue moving warriors

2510 BC (32): more of the same

2470 BC (33): Iroquios start pyramids more warrior movement. My first settler will finally complete next turn.

2430 BC (34): Build settler starts warrior. Warrior/settler pair head to the hill with a fish via the road.

2390 BC (35): Rome starts pyramids. Settler/warrior in position.

2350 BC (36): Build warrior starts settler. Found Alesia on the hill starts worker.

2310 BC (37): Aztecs start oracle.

2270 BC (38): more exploring.

2230 BC (39): Contact with Japan they are ahead the same techs as the rest and already have 6 cities. MM capital to go 5/5.

2190 BC (40): Learn bronze, start on Iron working and meet the Egyptians.

2150 BC (41): Greece has a rather agressive settlement to my south - must have been a settler from a hut :(. MM Alesia to go 3/3.

2110 BC (42): More warrior movement set the French but no contact yet.

2070 BC (43): Builds settler start spear. Contact with France, move settler into city position with a tighter than normal build for me.

2030 bC (44): Alesia builds worker starts granary. Found Lugdunum and start a temple for culture pressure on the greek city.


1990 bC (45): Well I am behind just about all the ancient techs now and Alphabet,Masonry, IW, Wheel, Mysticism, Writing etc.

1950 BC (46): The Iroquios are in my boarders and look ready to attack if they do the game is over for me.

1910 BC (47): Builds spear start a settler in Entremont, Just in time for the iroquios I fear.

1870 BC (48): Rome demands 21 gold who am I to say no. The iroquios are just passing through.

1830 BC (49): More exploring.

1790 BC (50): zzzz

1750 BC (51): zzzz

1725 BC (52): Greeks demand Tm and 17 gold , I pay.

1700 BC (53): zzzz

1675 BC (54): Finish settler start spear, settler/spear heading north.

1650 bC (55): Settler arrives at the next city site.

1625 BC (56): Found Camulodunum and start a temple.

1600 BC (57): Oracle is completd by England, France starts Great Library. Hopelessly lagging in tech. Lugdunum builds temple starts barracks.

1575 bC (58): Rome and Iroquios are at war. Entremont builds spear starts settler.

1550 BC (59): MM Entremont to go 5/5, the rest of the AI start GL.

1525 BC (60): France completed the Pyramids. I am hopelessly behind in tech and can't buy my way out. Deity is turning out to be a whole lot tougher than Monarch.

Here is the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_hotrod0823_1525bc_deity.zip

Your link doesn't work Hotrod. It should be http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_hotrod0823_1525bc_deity.zip.

Fixed it thanks :)

I have to say that reading Sirp's Deity training succession game really helped me in terms of keeping up in tech. I am closer to the AI's in this Deity game than I was in the original monarch game. It sounds like I also had some luck early on when meeting the others as well. Deity Training Link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=887663#post887663)
---------------------
Edit: My first 30 turns (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=933081#post933081) Or just scroll up :)

2550 BC(31): Settler Built. Setter and warrior head SW to found next city.
I have all the first level techs except for the wheel (BW, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, WC, CB)
AI status:
Iroquois have 5 cities + capitol. They also have the wheel.
Greece has 2 cities + capitol. I am equal in tech.
Carthage has 4 cities + capitol. They have the wheel.
Rome has 4 cities + a capitol. I am equal in tech.
China has 2 cites + capitol. They have the wheel.
2510 BC(32): Settler and warrior head W.
2470 BC(33): Settler and warrior head W. Iroquois near my capitol makes me nervous so I switch to a warrior build for next turn.
2430 BC(34): Alesia founded between the two lakes and starts on spearman. Warrior built and another one started. I lower luxury to 0 so I am at a balanced economy with 25 gold.
2390 BC(35): Build a second warrior to guard Entremont and start on a settler. Entremont is up to size 3.
2350 BC(36):
2310 BC(37): Gold increases to 6 gpt. My gpt to Carthage expired. France is now on my diplomacy screen.
France has 4 cities, writing, and the wheel (most other civs have 1 more city than before).
2270 BC(38):Zzzz
2230 BC(39):Zzzz
2190 BC(40):Zzzz
2150 BC(41):Settler built and heads S toward the fish with a warrior as guard. It will settle one square N of the firsh. Entremont grew at the same time and so is size 2.
2110 BC(42): Worker finishes mine and road between Alesia and Entremont and moves on toward Alesia.
2070 BC(43):Zzzz
2030 BC(44):Alesia builds a spearman which is sent to Entremont. Alesia is building a worker.
1990 BC(45):Lugdunum built. It has the higher growth due to the lake fish. I had gotten so used to coastal fish, I had forgotten (or rather did not think it through) that lake fish are worth 3 food instead of 2. Lugdunum is building a worker.
1950 BC(46): Spearman arrives in Entremont just as it grows to size 3. Road to Alesia complete (starting a mine).
1910 BC(47): Settler built and head 3 squares NW to be next to the fish. This may be a mistake as it has overlap with a Carthage city nearby. Entremont is working on a spearman (and is size 1).
1870 BC(48): Camulodunum is built. It is using the fish and starts on a warrior. Alesia builds a worker which head toward the capitol. Alesia starts on a barracks. Change my mind and set Lugdunum to a granary and Cam to a worker.
1830 BC(49): Japan contacts me. Wants to sell me contact with egypt, but the price is way too high.
1790 BC(50):Zzzz
1750 BC(51):Zzzz
1725 BC(52): Colossus is finished by China. I finally get writing. I look into the Diplomatic scene. Only 2 civs have mathematics, but I cannot afford to buy it. at any price. All the rest are above me by IW, wheel, and myst.
1700 BC(53): Entremont builds a spearman and starts on another settler. Science is at 0. I want to try to get mathematics.
1675 BC(54): London finishes the oracle. Aztecs will sell me mathematics for all I have - buy mathematics for 11 gpt and 148 gold. I then back trade mathematics for:
Myst + wheel + 20 gold from egypt.
IW + 30 from Greece
HBR + 15 from Rome
90 from china
Territory Map + 40 from france - I think long and hard about this one. France has map making and I wonder if I can get it. Decide the answer is a strong NO so I get what I can.
Iroquois and Carthage don't have much gold (2 and 4) so I they are the only ones.
Aztecs and Japan already had mathematics so no trades there.
Net Result:
11 gpt in exchange for Mysticism, Wheel, HBR, Iron Working, 47 gold and frances territory map.
--------------
Raise science to 10% and start on currency ( Putting me at -1 gpt). Spearman in Entremont heads NE to view next town site.
1650 BC(55): Aztecs complete the pyramids
1625 BC(56): Alisea finished barracks and starts on a spearman. Cam builds a worker. Raise Lux to 10% Change Cam to a temple (at least for now).
1600 BC(57): China demand 27 gold and Territory map. We give it to them.
1575 BC(58): Settler built in Entremont. It is sent to the square south of the nearby cow.
1550 BC(59): Lugdunum grows to size 3, and science is down to -- due to creation of settler. Have to raise lux and science to 20% which puts our money at -6 gpt. Ugh! That was not well planned. I send the spearman in Entremont to Lugdunum. I also have to move a Lugdunum citizen from the BG to the lake. Double Ugh! Alesia's veteran spearman will be sent to Entremont when it is made in 2 turns.
1525 BC(60): Find my first hut which is empty (a tech while unlikely would have been a major coup). I trade 130 gold and world map for philosophy to france. I have 4 towns(sizes 3, 2, 1, 1), with a settler ready to settle on my next turn, 3 workers, and all the techs up of tier 1 and 2 (including HBR), and philosophy.
The rest of the world has:
China and Greece have 8 cities + capitol
Aztecs and Japan have 9 cities + capitol
Egypt, Rome, France, Iroquois all have 10 cities + capitol
Carthage has 11 cities + capitol

As for techs, I am ahead of Carthage with my purchase of philosophy.
Egypt, Rome, and the Aztecs all have code of laws.
Greece, Japan, France, Iroquois, and China all have code of laws and map making.

Iroquois is no longer "ahead", so it did not capitolize on its early luck (I am pretty sure it got a settler from a hut) very well, though it is "tied" with france for first if you sum city count + techs.

England has not yet been met by anyone.


Here is the save file for 1525 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_deity_greebley_bc1525.sav)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Redux18_Deity_Greebley_1225.JPG

I finished the first 30 turns on Wednesday, but had problems with the Forum so, here they are:

4000 BC - Gotm18 Deity Redux; Settler NW 2 turns, so Fish is within original boundary. worker to develop BG N

3900 BC - Entremont founded; 10% Sci to Mysticism; Warrior in 10

3550 BC - Entremont size 2; Lux 10%

3500 BC - Warr1, start Warr2; Worker fin Rd/Min, goto BG N of Entremont for Rd/Min

3400 BC - Culture Expands

3350 BC - Warr1 sees 4 roman Warriors with 2 Roman Archers; Ceaser is annoyed; has 2 cities, 10 Gold and Alphabet; no Trade; MM to Lake for extra commerce

3300 BC - Warr2 build, next Warr3. MM to BG

3250 BC - Rome moves north; next up 8 Iroqouis Warriors; Hiawatha is Cautious, has BrW, Mas and Pott, 10 gold, 2 cities; we have 63 Gold, Warr Code; Trade WarrCode, 33 Gold, 1 GPT for Pottery; Hiawatha is Polite; can't get Ceasar to deal

3200 BC - Entremont is size 3; MM to Lake

3150 BC - Warr3, start on Granary; Warr1 to Scout West, Warr2 to scout West South; Warr3 for MP; Com% 80, 10, 10

2900 BC - Meet Carthage; Hannibal is Cautious, has BrW, Mas and Alpha; BrW is possible, but costly. no trade; Move MP out to protect Worker from Iroq Warr; Lux to 30%

2850 BC - Entremont size 4; MM to Lake for extra commerce; Worker still working 3rd BG for Rd then Mine

2800 BC - MP back in Entremont; MM to 3rd BG (w Rd, now Mine); Grow in 6, finish Granary in 5

2710 BC - Iroqouis and Carthage have the Wheel

2590 BC - Meet Greece to SSW; They have BrW, Mas, Alpha and Wheel; 4 cities. No trade. Send MP out to protect Worker from Iroq. Finish Granary, start Settler

2550 BC - Iroq moves within boundary! We insist that they withdraw, and they say they will. Entremont is size 5, add to Lux


At this point there is a 2hp Iroqouis warrior directly adjacent to a completely undefended Entremont!! Next post could be reeeeealy short.

But the Celts survive, maybe due to the 5 turns remaining on our deal. BTW, I'm very jealous of Greebley's trade at 3450 BC; Rome must have already met the Iroqouis in my game, so the same trade at 3250 BC was not available.

Here are turns 31 - 60:

2510 BC - Iroq moves on; we re-MP the capital, reduce Lux (60,10,30)

2470 BC - In Mountains to West of Carthage, meet Aztecs and French. Monte has Mysticism and the other 4 techs; 5 cities, 25 Gold; Joan has 48 Gold, the 4 Techs, 5 cities. No trades, both are Polite

2430 BC - Hiawatha has moved 3 warriors into our Territory; We buy BrW for 2 gpt and 57 gold, he turns Polite from Cautious; Settler finished, start on Warrior; Settler goes to South end of Lake, Worker builds roads to connect

2390 BC - Gut Check time; 3 Iroq Warriors adjacent to Entremont (1 mp Warr); 3 more move into Territory; Entremont size 4

2350 BC - Iroq move on through (Whew!!); Warr4 built, start another, adj Lux

2310 BC - Warr1 meets Japanese (far West near French- Aztec border); Tokugawas is Annoyed, has Mas, Alph, Wheel, IrW and Myst, 5 cities 20 gold; we are sooo far behind. Alesia founded (2 spaces diag S of Entre), beg Warr

2270 BC - Entre fin Warr, beg Barr (3 turns)

2230 BC - Meet Egypt (far West); 5 Techs, 0 gold, 6 cities; Entremont size 5, adj Lux (all the time, now 70,10,20); Greeks and Romans building Pyrimids

2150 BC - Entre fin Barr, beg Settler

2110 BC - Alesia fin Warr, beg Work

2070 BC - Learn Mysticism, no one to trade it to, Entre size 6

1990 BC - Entre fin Setlr, beg Warr; Lux to 10; Stlr S to other Fish

1910 BC - Alesia fin Work, beg Barr; Work2 and Work1 mining BG near Alesia, Entre size 5, fin Warr, beg Warr

1870 BC - Aztecs (at Tenochtitlan) complete the Oracle

1830 BC - Entre fin Warr, beg Stlr

1790 BC - Lugdunum founded on S Fish, beg Gran

1750 BC - Entremont size 6, Lux to 30

1700 BC - Trade Rome Comm with Japan, Egypt, 2 gpt, 16 Gold, for Alphabet; Entremont fin Setlr, beg Warr, Lux to 10; trade Comm w Greeks, 33 Gold, 2 gpt to Egypt for Masonry; Entremont fin Stlr, beg Warr; Send Stlr/Warr to Gem hills

1675 BC - Carthage founds Rusicade next to Gems (beating me there by 1 turn!!); Settler/Vet Warr to found in River area next to Cows

1650 BC - Entremont fin Warr, beg Spear; Last turn 3 civs had Math and wouldn't trade; this turn we meet English, and everyone has Math ( and IrW, Writing, the Wheel and ... MapMaking by inference)

1600 BC - Alesia is size2, fin Barr beg Archer; Lug is size 2

1575 BC - Camulodunum founded on River, beg Warr; Entremont fin Spear beg Stlr

1550 BC - French (at Paris) complete the Pyramids

1525 BC - Entremont size 6, Com% at 60, 10, 30

save file:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/cvst_G18D_bc1525.sav

My apologies. It looks like I will not be able to get my sixty turns in today. I'm still trying for my domination victory and its taking forever. I'll read along and pray for a day that I can participate.

Originally posted by civ_steve
2550 BC - Iroq moves within boundary! We insist that they withdraw, and they say they will. Entremont is size 5, add to Lux


:eek: Wow you have some guts! I'm even more surprised that they backed down instead of declaring war. I'd never kick an AI out of my territory that early on deity. I like what Sirp calls it, the deity right of passage.

4000 BC- settler NW, worker SW
3950 BC- Entremont-warrior, worker mine, wheel in 40 at 8.2.0
3700 BC- start another warrior
3500 BC- start another warrior
3450 BC- meet Iroquois (1) and Carthage (2)--nothing to trade, Iroquois has stack of 8 warriors (probably going towards the barbs)
3200 BC- meet Greece (3) and buy pottery for 35g and 2gpt, with Carthage trade pottery warrior code 17g and 2gpt for alphabet, with Iroquois trade alphabet for bronze working and 10g, change production to granary, change research to writing-40 turns
3100 BC- 8.1.1
3050 BC- meet China (4)
2800 BC- granary complete
2710 BC- 6.1.3
2590 BC- Entremont-settler, 9.1.0
2550 BC- found Alesia-granary
2510 BC- Entremont-worker
2390 BC- meet Aztecs (5)
2350 BC- meet Rome (6), sell pottery for 10g
2230 BC- Entremont-settler
2150 BC- found Lugdunum-barracks
2070 BC- 8.1.1
1950 BC- Entremont-settler
1910 BC- buy contact with Egypt (7) for 55g
1870 BC- found Camulodunum-worker, 9.1.0
1790 BC- Aztecs build Oracle
1750 BC- Lugdunum-worker, 8.1.1
1725 BC- Entremont-worker
1675 BC- 7.1.2
1650 BC- 9.1.0
1600 BC- found Richborough-temple
1575 BC- discover writing, start the wheel-due in 11 turns, 0.10.0
1525 BC- Entremont-settler

I plan on building chariots and warriors to upgrade to attack Rome. They are less advanced than the others and they don't have iron.

Here is my save http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/da_greatest_QSC18r3_1525BC.SAV. I can't look at the other saves because I don't have PTW, so I would appreciate pics.

My empire at 1525 BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/shillen_1525BC_QSC18r3_empire.JPG

And here's my military, which I believe is the weakest out of everyone. :p
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/shillen_1525BC_QSC18r3_military.JPG

I have all 1st and 2nd tier techs, along with Horseback Riding, Philosophy, and Code of Laws. Several AI's have Map Making, while France and Iroquois have Polytheism.

Ok deadline is passed, it looks like there's 7 of us. Next couple of days are for discussion. Here's some stats for each game at 1525BC.

LKendter -
4 cities(1,3,1,1)
1 settler, 2 workers
2 granaries
6 warriors, 1 archer
7 techs, Alphabet (5)
37 gold (0gpt)
55 tiles
13.75 tiles per city
Gems - Celts (city #3)

Shillen -
4 cities(2,4,1,2)
1 settler, 3 workers
2 granaries, 1 barracks
4 warriors
14 techs, Republic (39)
178 gold (-5gpt)
48 tiles
12 tiles per city
Gems - Carthage

hotrod0823 -
4 cities (3,2,2,1)
2 workers
1 temple, 1 granary
5 warriors, 2 spearmen
4 techs, Iron Working (7)
28 gold (-1gpt)
45 tiles
11.25 tiles per city
Gems - neutral

Greebley -
4 cities (1,2,3,1)
1 settler, 3 workers
1 granary, 1 barracks
5 warriors, 2 spearmen
13 techs, Currency (35)
25 gold (-6gpt)
48 tiles
12 tiles per city
Gems - Carthage

civ_steve -
4 cities (6,2,2,1)
2 workers
2 barracks, 1 granary
10 warriors (3 vets), 1 spearman (vet)
7 techs, Polytheism (23)
86 gold (+4gpt)
45 tiles
11.25 tiles per city
Gems - Carthage

da_greatest -
5 cities (1,3,1,1,1)
1 settler, 6 workers
2 granaries, 1 barracks
4 warriors (2 vets)
6 techs, Wheel (9)
153 gold (-3gpt)
54 tiles
10.8 tiles per city
Gems - Celts (city #4)

el_kalkylus
5 cities (2,2,2,2,1)
1 settler, 2 workers
2 barracks, 1 granary, 1 temple
5 warriors
11 techs, Polytheism (15)
7 gold (+2gpt)
55 tiles
11 tiles per city
Gems - Celts (city #4)
Traded for Wines

I know this doesn't tell the whole story. I didn't bother counting partially completed stuff. But it gives a brief summary. Tell me if I miscounted something.

From the get go I made a mistake and went SW and got contact with Iroquios and Rome first. That was the begining of my problems. Having nothing to trade with Rome, CB is not as valueable at Alphabet. Meeting Iroquios again was a mistake, they get techs from huts etc. The best option would be to go northWest and meet the Carthaginians first and get Masonry, use Masonry to get Alphabet from Rome etc. etc. I got stuck in a rut and everyone I met along my trip West had all the techs I either had or wanted too much for the ones I needed for trades.

Contacts same situation I didn't have writing myselft - blowing it by not getting Alphabet, I couldn't even use contacts to get techs from the AI without writing. The contacts all were made quickly before I even had time to react :(.

Looks like my only option to stay around at all is pointy stick.

Yeah a lot of the tech on deity is luck. If all the AI's stay at tech parity then it's very hard to make any good tech deals. I didn't even think about going to Carthage first. I sent my first warrior to Rome myself. I purchased pottery from Iroquois though and traded that along with CB to Rome for Alphabet.

I find the most important tech to get ASAP on deity is writing. That opens up 4 more techs that give you a chance to give yourself a leg up. I find it's very important to check every civ's diplomacy every turn. Otherwise you'll miss a lot of key trades. It's very rare for techs to be learned and traded to every civ on the same turn. Usually a few civ's won't have anything to offer for it yet. They'll get it a few turns later though if you don't spot the opportunity right away.

Originally posted by hotrod0823.
Contacts same situation I didn't have writing myselft - blowing it by not getting Alphabet, I couldn't even use contacts to get techs from the AI without writing. The contacts all were made quickly before I even had time to react.

You couldn't trade your contacts right after they learned writing? I got Writing practically free because I had a monopoly on English contact. I knew it would be important to contact England myself, because Iroquois took forever in my gotm game. After the Iroquois and Greeks already came up to meet me my eastern warrior didn't have much else to do except to find England. Here's what I got in total from my English contact: Writing, Horseback Riding, contact with Egypt, and 90 gold.

I also find it a large waste to do any research yourself this early on. That includes pottery. You're better off trading for it from the AI. Min science gambits at the start of the game on deity won't work, especially in a pangaea setting. Even at 100% science you can't possibly get any 1st or 2nd tier techs before every AI has it already. The only techs you can possibly get before the AI in the ancient age are republic, currency, and monarchy. But even then you usually can't. I kept my research at 0% all the way up until 1550 BC when I traded for code of laws + philosophy. Now I'm researching republic at minimum. It's possible I'll get republic before the AI's, but I'm not counting on it. The main reason for the min science run is so I don't have to buy republic, which is usually quite expensive.

Nice snapshot listing of our status so far, Shillen! (BTW, I was very concerned about that Iroqouis warrior next to my undefended capital; fortunately the option on the Diplo screen was 'Insist you Withdraw', not 'Withdraw or Declare War'; since Hiawatha was polite at the time, and we had several turns on a gpt deal, I was about 75% sure he'd withdraw; if he didn't, I'd be 100% gone :( ; this supports an argument to build a Settler first, because the 2nd city allows you 8 free units, therefore you can have 2-3 scouts, a couple of workers and enough MP's to defend your cities and workers.)

I'm concerned that I didn't get the Gems before Carthage. (3 didn't, 2 did and 1 is undecided.) Building my 3rd city by the gems is probably better than by the Fish to the South; if I don't get the South Fish, I still have a good shot to get 1 or both Cattle to the East, allowing me another fast growth city or two; and the Gem city supports eventual growth to the Northern Iron source, which I'll need (the Iron to the South and SouthWest are almost sure to be snagged by the Greeks.)

The early Tech trading differences are worth listing:

shillen:
3350 BC - Buy Pottery from Iroq for 4 gpt; trade CB and Pottery to Rome for Alphabet and 10 Gold

LKendter:
2950 BC - Researched Pottery
2800 BC - Buy Masonry from Carthage for CB, 12 Gold, 4 gpt; Trade Masonry to Rome for BronzeWork and 8 Gold

Hotrod0823
3450 BC - Sell CB to Rome for 10 Gold

Greebley
3450 BC - Trade Warrior Code to Carthage for Pottery; Trade Pottery and CB to Rome for Alphabet
3200 BC - Trace CB, 20 Gold, 4 gpt to Carthage for Masonry; Trade Masonry to Iroqouis for BronzeWorking and 20 Gold; Trade Masonry to Rome for 40 Gold

civ_steve
3250 BC - Trade Warrior Code, 33 Gold, 1 gpt to Iroqouis for Pottery

da_greatest
3200 BC Trade 35 Gold, 2 gpt to Greece for Pottery; Trade Pottery, Warrior Code, 17 Gold and 2 gpt to Carthage for Alphabet; Trade Alphabet to Iroqouis for BronzeWorking and 10 Gold

I really like Greebley's and da_greatest's early trades. (Hotrod0823 - ouch!) Shillen built on his early trading and with Greebley has the most Tech's currently. I tried to do the same CB and Pottery trade with Rome that Shillen did in 3350 and Greebley in 3450, but in 3250 BC it didn't work; I believe that Rome had met the Iroqouis by this time, and the Techs weren't valued as highly. This demonstrates the importance of early scouting - making contact with AI civs before they meet others makes your Techs more valuable and gives you more trading chances. (This also indicates a problem with my initial city location; I moved 2 spaces to the NW to have the Fish within my initial border; I grew in 7 turns this way and had some extra commerce, but only had 1 production until I was size 2, so my scouting started about 4 turns after those who had 2 production.)

Once you get Alphabet, you can monitor the other civs for Writing, get it at whatever cost and trade for whatever you're missing. Similarly, with writing, you can monitor the other civs for first researches on the next set of Techs, and play the Tech broker again. Not getting that early Alphabet Tech really hurts, so keep an eye out for those Commercial civs.

Your correct, I missed the opportunity to trade my contacts after they got writting. They all traded around very quickly and I had nothing to offer anyone. It was almost like the contacts were all made before writing even came to be.

I had the same problem with contacts. I got very little value from them.

I think I had a fatal mistake of not getting alphabet except via token research. I am way behind vs. the AI, and it doesn't look to improve in the next 60 turns.

The Redux idea was interesting, but I must admit knowing the game ahead of time has made the game somewhat boring for me. I know I am not playing to the best of my abilities.

I am a little late with this game, so I rushed through the first 30 turns today. Here is my timeline:

4000 bc - Settler NW (for fish), worker SW.
3950 bc - Entremont founded, start warrior. Worker start building road. Research Potter 100%.
3800 bc - Road ready. Worker mines.
3700 bc - Warrior ready and moves S - W. Entremount start warrior production.
3600 bc - Meet neoCarthagian warrior. No trade.
3500 bc - Mining done. Worker moves N - NE. Changed my mind and wanted to move W instead, but too late. This will make me lose a turn when founding a new city.
3450 bc - Worker start building road. Meet 3 Greece units (2 hoplites, 2 warriors). No trade. Entremont start building a settler.
3350 bc - Meet Iroquois. Trade Warrior Code, 3 gpt, 1 gold for Masonry with neoCarthage. Then trade Masonry for Pottery and 10 gold with Iroquois. I was hoping to trade for Mysticism so I could catch up in tech, but I wasn't that lucky.
3300 bc - Meet Roman warrior. Trade for Alphabet and 10 gold. I was one turn to late to trade Alphabet with the Iroqois. 9 Iroqois warriors are 3 squares away from my capital. I guess they will be going north to the barbarians. Road ready. Worker moves SE - S - E.
3250 bc - Worker start building road.
3150 bc - Meet Chinese warriors and archers. Trade for Bronze Working.
3100 bc - Road ready. Worker mines.
3000 bc - Settler ready in Entremont. It moves to the first hill to the west. Entremont start building a granary.
2950 bc - Alesia founded (start warrior).
2800 bc - Mining done. Worker moves E - N - NW.
2750 bc - Worker start building road.
2670 bc - Meet Japanese warrior. Trade for The Wheel.
.
. (Screwed up micromanagement)
.
2590 bc - I am still alive.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_2590bc.jpg

Yep, pretty sure the best way to keep up in tech was to find Carthage first and get Masonry. Masonry begets pottery, then alphabet etc. etc. I met carthage after, Rome, Iroquios and Greeks and by the time I met carthage the others already had as well and gotten Masonry.

I do wonder however is this map was brand new for all if Carthage woulbe be found before the others??

@el_kalkylus - It's good to have another person join in. I like where you put Alesia, building it 1 turn after producing the settler.
________________________________________________

Turns 61-81

61: 1500 BC - Camulodunum worker->barracks. Yay China bought Map Making but not Code of Laws. Trade Code of Laws, World Map, and 12 gold to China for Map Making. Japan got Map Making too, trade them my world map for their territory map and 19 gold.

62: 1475 BC - France learned Literature. Trade WM and Code of Laws to England for their WM. That gives me everyone's TM except Rome which is probably the one I wanted most grr.

63: 1450 BC - Entremont spearman->settler. Alesia settler->settler. Lux to 0%. Richborough founded next to gems. Set to temple. Camulodonum changed from barracks to worker. Spearman fortified. Settler sent north and west of Alesia. Sell world map around for about 20 gold. Forgot to do that last turn. I also get Rome's TM. They don't have iron in their borders yet, but if I remember right there must be some in between their cities somewhere. Hiawatha demands 29 gold. I give it to him.

64: 1425 BC - Alesia grows to 3. Lux to 20%.

65: 1400 BC - Verulamium founded w/nw of Alesia. Set to barracks. Camulodonum switched from worker to granary.

66: 1375 BC - Carthage learned Polytheism.

67: 1350 BC - Lugdunum barracks->warrior. Aztecs learn Polytheism.

68: 1325 BC - Damn Lugdunum rioted at size 2. Lux to 40%. Entremont settler->spearman. Spearman from entremont sent to Lugdunum. Forgot to mention I've been MMing Entremont and Camulodonum a lot to share the fish.

69: 1300 BC - Seems the tech pace finally slowed down in my game. Although they'll probably all learn a bunch of techs at once and trade them like crazy pretty soon.

70: 1275 BC - Alesia settler->settler. Lux to 20%. Settler sent to the NE coast with the cows if it's not settled already. Greece, Iroquois, China, Carthage have Literature and Polytheism. England and China have those plus Construction. I can't afford Construction. My gpt deal doesn't end for 9 turns.

71: 1250 BC - Rome and Egypt learn Literature but not Polytheism. 237 gold isn't enough to buy Polytheism.

72: 1225 BC - Lugdunum warrior->warrior. Entremont spearman->warrior. Aztecs and France learn Currency. Carthage learns Construction and Currency.

73: 1200 BC - Greece learns Currency.

74: 1175 BC - Entremont warrior->spearman. Carthage archer attacks Aztec Jag. Maybe I will hit Carthage after all instead of Rome.

75: 1150 BC - Gergovia founded on river next to iron to the north. Set to worker. Verulamium MM'd to work lakes so I don't have to raise lux. Greece learns Construction. Iroquois learn Currency and Construction. Japan learns Literature and Construction. Still can't afford any techs other than Literature.

76: 1125 BC - Lugdunum warrior->warrior.

77: 1100 BC - Entremont spearman->settler. Lleorycantores founded on coast/river by cattle. Set to granary.

78: 1075 BC - Ravenna (Rome) expanded and is now controlling 1 of Alesia and 1 of Lugdunum's tiles. Alesia settler->worker. Entremont changed from spearman to settler.

79: 1050 BC - My gpt deal ends! I now have 303 gold and making 14gpt. I buy Currency from France for 8gpt and 294g (they always give me the best deals for some reason). Fix: Currency, 11gpt, and 5g to Japan for Construction.(Was Currency to Japan for Construction, 11gpt, and 5g - I wish) Currency to China for Polytheism, 15g, and TM. Polytheism to Egypt for Literature, TM, and 22g. Polytheism to Rome for TM and 26g. I'm now at 67 gold and running a 5gpt defecit. I switch Entremont to marketplace. Gems will be online in 4. Greece has Feudalism, no one else has middle age techs. Republic due in 20 still.

80: 1025 BC - Verulamium barracks->warrior. MM some citizens to lakes to reduce defecit.

81: 1000 BC - Alesia worker->temple. Lugdunum warrior->temple.

Here is my 1000 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/QSC18r3-Shillen-1000BC.zip) and here is my empire at 1000BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Shillen-QSC18r3-1000BC-empire.JPG

_________________________________________________

Turns 82-90

82: 975 BC - Gems connected. Greece demands TM and 21g. We give it to him.

83: 950 BC - Camulodonum granary->worker. Lux to 10% due to gems.

84: 925 BC - Richborough temple->barracks. Entremont size 6, lux to 20%.

85: 900 BC - Gergovia worker->temple. France, Japan, and Greece have Feudalism + Monarchy. Carthage demands WM and 20 gold. Grr way too many demands and I'm broke. Currently at 46 gold with a -8gpt defecit. I give to him and we're down to 26 gold with a marketplace due in 4.

86: 875 BC - Lugdunum temple->marketplace. Camulodonum worker->worker. Verulamium warrior->temple. Aztecs learn Republic, Monarchy, and Feudalism. Greece and France learn Republic. Have 20 gold at -9gpt and marketplace due in 3. Not going to make it. Lux down to 10%, tax-collector hired in Entremont. Now at -6gpt and market still due in 3.

87: 850 BC - Brempovia founded to the north, set to courthouse. Egypt and Carthage learned Republic, Monarchy, Feudalism. Rome is sending a lot of troops which look to be heading towards Bamicus Speedica (Carthage city near gems).

88: 825 BC - Alesia temple->marketplace. Lleory grows to 2 and riots, road connects it next turn. Aztecs build the Great Library (in same city as the Pyramids).

89: 800 BC - Entremont marketplace->temple. Lux back to 20%. Economy is 21 gold at +1gpt now. Republic due in 10. China has Monarchy and Feudalism. Rome indeed does attack Carthage. Japan completes the Great Wall.

90: 775 BC - Camulodonum worker->temple.

EDIT: Egregious error in one of my trade deals at 1050BC.

@Shillen. I thought that it would be better to have two cities share the fish. While Entremont was building the granary, Alesia could grow 5 turns faster than usual and then build a fast settler.

Here are my next 30 turns:

2510 bc - Meet Azteks. No trade.
2470 bc - Buy Wines for 22 gold.
2430 bc - Meet France. Trade for Iron Working with the Romans.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_2430bc.jpg
Iron Working makes me able to trade for Mysticism and Horseback Riding. Research Polytheism 10%.
2350 bc - Granary complete in Entremont. Start settler production.
2270 bc - Buy contact with Egypt from France for 17 gold. Egypt gives us a little money for Alphabet.
2190 bc - Settler complete in Alesia (goes E - S)
2150 bc - Forest harvested. Settler complete in Entremont (start barracks). Settler goes north.
2110 bc - Once again, the AI blocks my path to. This time my settler can't move north because of Greece. I have to go around. Lugudnum founded (start temple).
2070 bc - Entremont change producction to settler.
2030 bc - Road complete. Start mining NW of Entremont.
1990 bc - Camulodulum founded. Alesia builds worker (start warrior).
1830 bc - Rome demand 23 gold which I give to them.
1790 bc - Entremont builds settler (moves west towards the dye).
1700 bc - Buy wine for 44 gold. Greece and Romans seems to be at war. I wish I had writing.
1675 bc -
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_1675bc.jpg
1650 bc - Richborough founded.
1600 bc - First temple built (Lugdunum)
1525 bc - Settler complete in Entremont.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_1525bc.jpg

Savegame 1525 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_QSC18r3_1525bc.zip)

I added el_kalkylus' stats to my post above.

Originally posted by el_kalkylus.
@Shillen. I thought that it would be better to have two cities share the fish. While Entremont was building the granary, Alesia could grow 5 turns faster than usual and then build a fast settler.
Actually it only grows 3 turns faster. Takes 20 food to grow. With 2 food surplus it takes 10 turns. With the fish it has 3 food surplus and grows in 7 turns. I founded my second city on the southeastern fish. It took several turns to get it down there though. But then I could use both fish. I eventually founded my fourth city NW of Entremont and it shared Entremont's fish since Entremont only needed it half the time.

You are right, it is 3 turns faster per growth. I think that it was better to found the second city close to Entremont because of production. But since Greece got to build a city near the second fish before me, it was probably better to use those extra moves to build a city there with the second city.

Nice job with the stats above! It seems to me that diplomacy is extremely important at deity. Keeping up in tech was important for me, and it went well for a while, but now I am already 2-3 techs behind every civs. By the time everyone gets map making, my map will not be worth anything and it will be hard to trade for maps.

I will take some time to compare every game now.

Here are my next 30 moves. I think my lack of experience at the higher levels (emporer and deity) starts hurting me during these years. It will be interesting to see how others do. Especially turn 91-120.
1500(61):Zzzz
1475(62):Spearman arrives at Entremont and is fortified. Spearman arrives at Lugdunum and is fortifed. Science rate lowered to 10%. Luxury rate lowered to 0%.
1450(63): See if we can get some gold for our world map. Get 4 from china and 2 from france. Give our world maps to some of the surrounding civs. It is only worth 1 gp, so it is not much, but I want to avoid war while I expand.
1425(64): Zzzz
1400(65): Entremont builds temple and starts on a settler. Alesia goes into disorder. Lux rate would need to be high to fix the disorder, so instead I change to a scientist and lower science to 0.
1375(66): Entremont and Lugdunum both grow. Raise science back to 10% and Lux to 20%.
1350(67): Alesia finishes its spearman and switches to a worker.
1325(68): Zzzz
1300(69):Alesia finishes its worker, starts on a Spearman. Camulodunum finishes a temple and starts on a settler Warrior at Alesia ordered to Entremont to escort the settler that will be produced there.
1275(70): Give Iroquois 19 gold and Territory map as tribute. Settler built in Entremont. Spearman and Settler start N. Warrior guards Entremont. Decide to switch Camulodunum to spearman instead of settler. Our defense is getting thin. Entremont is also building a spearman. After tribute our gold is 4 with -3 gpt, so I lower luxury to 10%, change the unhappy citizen in Lugdunum to a scientist and lower science to 0.
1250(71): Lugdunum builds a granary and starts on a settler.
1225(72): Southern warrior finds a deserted hut.
1200(73): Zzzz
1175(74): Spearman built in Entremont, Alesia and Camulodunum. All are fortified. Science raised to 10%. and Lugdunum has a entertainer. Switch to barracks in Entremont, and Temple in Alesia. Cam starts a settler.
1150(75): Zzzz
1125(76): Verulamium built at the mouth of the river. Starts on Galley (for now). England contacts us. I trade the two techs I have (philosophy and ?) for map making. Send warrior N from Entremont to see if there is available land.
1100(77): Entremont builds barracks and starts on spearman.
1075(78):Lugdunum builds a settler which is sent W between Lugdunum and Alesia. Richborough builds a worker and starts on walls. Lux raised to 20% so that Alesia can send its spearman to new town
1050(79): Camulodunum builds a settler. Going to send this one N.
1025(80):
1000(81):Gergovia founded starts worker. Entremond builds a spearman.

Save at 1000 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_deity_greebley_bc1000.sav)
Here is my view for reference:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/R18-Deity-Greebley-BC1000.JPG

975(82): Decide I want to build a temple in Gergovia instead.
950(83): Richborough builds walls and starts barracks.
925(84): Camulodunum builds a worker and starts on some walls.
900(85): Lugdunum builds a settler. It is sent Northward. Entremont builds an archer.
875(86): Lugdunum switches to walls. LLeorycantores built as Greece seems ready to lay down its settler. This town is NW of Verulamium which is on the coast at the river mouth.
850(87): Lugdunum builds walls and switches to a Temple. Camulodunum build walls and switches to barracks. Entremont builds an archer which is sent to Richburough.
825(88): Zzzz
800(89): Richborough builds barracks and starts on a spearman. Alesia builds a spearman, Entremont builds an archer. Verulamium builds a galley.
775(90): Zzzz

I have been hoping to afford construction, but I am obviously not rich enough to buy it. Currency might be of some use when I get it, but not a whole lot.. Many civilizations have entered the next era, so I am falling behind. The transition from the ancient times to the medieval ages seem to be a part of the game I am weakest at. I do not yet have sufficient experience to balance settler and worker creation vs units vs buildings, and have difficulty keeping up in tech or waging early wars on Empire or Deity.

Here is my 775 bc save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_deity_greebley_bc775.sav)

Here is my map for the final date:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/R18-Deity-Greebley-BC775.JPG

One thing I find absolutely necessary on deity during the late ancient-early medieval age is selling your world map constantly. I must have made a couple hundred gold this game just from selling my world map to every civ every turn. You can pretty much double your income doing this. Now sometimes the civ's won't pay for your map, this is because the AI trades their map around very often. There has to be something new on the map for them to pay 1g. But I think even when your worker finishes a road or something, that that counts. But anyway on average I can get about 5 civ's to give me 1 gold each turn. That's an extra 5gpt, which goes a long way on deity.

@Greebley - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be giving advice but I think the main idea of this QSC is for all of us to learn so I'm going to anyway. I noticed in your 1000BC save that you hadn't sold your world map. I was able to sell it to each civ and net around 55 gold. That's no small sum. In your 775BC save it seems you had finally sold your map at some point but even then a couple civ's gave me 1 gold for it.

I definitely wouldn't say you're in bad shape. Hopefully you'll manage to get Currency before Rome and England, then you can get Polytheism and Code of Laws from them. You should also be close to being able to afford Construction and that will put you in the middle age. Your biggest problem will be getting the Republic. It's a really expensive tech.

I'm not sure why you're building Walls. I know they're very cheap to build and they're bugged in that they still give a bonus after the city reaches 7+, but do you really find them worthwhile? My core cities never come under attack unless I'm playing an AW game or something. You might think about starting some pre-builds for marketplaces for when you get currency. Marketplaces and banks are by far the most important structures to build on deity.

I've finished turns 61-90. I'll do the remainder after (if) I finish Gotm18.

1475 BC - Entre fin Stlr, beg Spear; Stlr/Spear to found hill next to Cattle to E; Alesia fin Spear, beg Warr, go to 80,10,10

1450 BC - Entre size 5 (Lux to 20); Cum. fin Warr, beg Work

1424 BC - Richborough founded, beg Granary

1400 BC - Entre fin Spear, beg Stlr; Spear, Warr sent N to scout around Rusicade; Cum Warr sent North for Scouting; Alesia fin Warr, beg Work; War sent SW to scout between Carthage and Greece

1375 BC - Buy Writing for 90 Gold an 3 gpt from France

1350 BC - Alesia fin Work, beg Spear

1325 BC - Cam fin Work, beg Granary; Entremont size 6, Lux to 30

1300 BC - Entremont fin Stlr, beg Spear; Lux to 10; Stlr to North Iron (hopefully); other civs: either 6 or 7 Techs more than us; Code-of-laws is the difference; all have Wheel, Math, IrW, Lit, MapM and Phil

1250 BC - Lux to 20, for Lug, size 4

1225 BC - English (Canterbury) complete Colossus; Entremont size5, fin Spear, beg Sltr; Alesia fin Spear, beg Warr; Lug changed to Stlr

1200 BC - Poly is starting to show up among the AI civs (France and Egypt for sure)

1150 BC - Alesia fin Warr, beg Work

1125 BC - Entremont fin Stlr, beg Spear; Lug fin Stlr, beg Stlr;

1100 BC - Alesia fin Work, beg Spear; Work sent to Road up to N Iron

1075 BC - Veruliminum founded on S Fish Lake, beg Temple; Gergovia founded on Hill North of Entremont, beg Warr; Lleorycantores founded at N Iron, beg Temple; founding these cities has freed up the Treasury a bit; Buy Poly from Carthage for 11gpt, 45 Gold, WM; Trade Poly to Hiawatha for IrW; TM and 50 Gold; Trade Poly to Alex for Math and 39 Gold; Well, well - most AI's also have currency and construction

1050 BC - Entremont fin Spear, beg Warr

1025 BC - Nottingham completes the Great Lighthouse

1000 BC - Entremont fin Warr, beg Stlr; Lux at 20

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/G18D_bc1000comp.jpg

925 BC - France completes Great Library; Aztecs complete Great Wall; Entremont fin Stlr; beg Spear; Greeks moving Settler to West side of Gems, must block if possible

875 BC - Richborough fin Gran, beg Stlr; Carthage Culture expands, cutting off direct path to Lleory.; might have to go around Rusicade to connect

850 BC - Alesia fin Spear, beg Stlr; Entre fin Spear, beg Warr

825 BC - Greeks have gone North; now Blocking 2 Carthage Stlrs; Rush Temples at Veru, Greg, and Lleory

800 BC - Entre fin Warr, beg Stlr; Temples Completed, beg Warriors at all 3 cities; Blocking Iroq Stlrs near Veru

775 BC - Cam fin Gran beg Stlr

750 BC - Blocking is working; Lug in CD, create Ent


I'm rather behind in Techs, since everyone else has finished all the required Ancient Era Techs (some have Monarchy, also; I'm seeing messages about this and that civ building the Hanging Gardens.) If I can get my finances in a bit better shape I may be able to get one of Monarchy/Republic and trade around for some of my missing technologies.

Carthage has had a culture boundary increase from Acra, which cuts off my direct access to Lleorycantores to the north. I'll have to build quickly around the West to make that connection. I'll add a 1000 BC save and snapshot shortly.


1000BC save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/cvst_G18D_bc1000.sav

@civ_steve - Are you taking advantage of the fact that there are no culture flips in the PTW version on purpose? Or would you have placed your cities like that anyway? Actually who knows, maybe Cracker fixed that for this game so culture flips were enabled. But I'd think with your haphazard city placement it'd only be a matter of time before half of your cities flipped on deity. I was afraid to put cities within 3 tiles of an AI city, nevermind 2 tiles away.

Thanks for the advice. It is true I don't think about selling my world map very much. I will remember that on deity, it is important. I think advice is more a part of quick games; at least that was my understanding. In any case, I have finished the 120 turns. I held off posting 91-120 in order to allow others to post 61-90 first. I think if I had sold my maps, my game would have been better in the 91-120 range. I end up missing certain trades by a single turn.

I think the walls are mostly because playing deity makes me nervous :)

shillen - No, I'm not assuming culture flips are off. More and more I'm regretting not getting that Gems space before Carthage. For the Celts it's doubly important to get an Iron source; I did cheat with my Gotm18 knowledge and place a city on the Iron to the North, but now I have to connect it. I was planning to string cities straight North (hence Gergovia's position), but I've been blocked off by Carthage Cultural growth from Acra (not shown here in 1000 BC), so I'll be building East of Rusicade. Being Religious, I should still be able to get more early Temples before Carthage, and these cities are closer to my capital than they are to Carthage's, so I don't believe I'll suffer any culture flips, at least through turn 120.

Here are my next 30 turns. I followed Shillen's advice and sold the map every turn, so it took a long time to play these 30 turns.

.
. (trade world map for gold)
.

1450 bc - Gem colony. Verulamium founded.
1425 bc - The Greek built a city near the dye 5 turns before me.
1400 bc - Romans destroy the Greek fish-city. I establish embassy in the Greek capital for 35 gold (future military alliance vs romans perhaps).
1350 bc - Gergovia founded.
1275 bc - LLeorycantores founded.
1250 bc - Buy contact with the English for 56 gold and world map. I trade around the world and gain Egyptian world map, Mathematics, Philosophy, Code of Laws and Map making.
1175 bc - Ignore Japanese demand, and they declare war.
1150 bc - Finally discover Polytheism. Research The Republic 10%. Brempovia founded. Syrplebonium founded.
1100 bc - Trade with France for World map and pay them 6 gpt.
1050 bc - I give a small fee to France to prevent war. France declare war on neoCarthage. I buy Literature for some gpt and gold and sell it for even more gpt and gold.
1025 bc - Augustodurum founded.
1000 bc - Deaths so far: 2 warriors.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_1000bc.jpg

I took a pause here to see what I have been doing. I have expanded pretty well (for my standards), and now it's time to produce some military units and attack Rome later. I need more workers too.

925 bc - Peace with Japan.
800 bc - Pay tribute to China. Richborough joins neoCarthage, culture flip.
775 bc - Pay tribute to Greece. Traded almost all my gold and half my gpt for currency so that I could trade Currency for Construction with the English, but they didn't want that.
750 bc -
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ek_gotm18_deity_750bc.jpg

Savegame at 1000 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_QSC18r3_1000bc.zip)

I don't think I'm going to continue with this. I don't really have enough time for it. I've only been able to play to 1000 BC. Here is the ss.

OK,
It looks like the rest of the turns are comming up. I start working on 61+.

1500 BC - It clears the treasury out, but I buy contact with England for $36.
China needs contact and I sell it to him for $22.

1475 BC - I get my first useful map trade - wm and $28 to China for Horseback riding. Since they would be insulted without the map, it clearly had value.
(I) My treasury gets emptied to an AI demand. :(

1400 BC (I) - This is the total screw-over game and my total treasury of $17 is demanded.

1200 BC - Verulamium is formed claiming the cow on a river spot.

1150 BC - We finally purchase writing from France for $75 and $4/turn.

1075 BC - Gergovia is formed.

1025 BC - Cash in hand is a demand waiting to happen, so I buy Iron Working from France for $66 and $3/turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKENDTER-QSC18R3-1000BC.zip
While I have gotten close to the number of cities are my original game, the quality of the cities suck. I lost half of my first ring city locations to the AI. The cities are being built north of the capital. I will soon be claiming all but worthless land.

850 BC - LLeorycantores is formed.
We buy Philosophy for $104 and wm from France.

775 BC - Brempovia is formed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKENDTER-QSC18R3-775BC.zip

750 BC - Demand havoc continues and this time China is the problem.
I purchase Code of Laws from France for $8/turn and $34.
We begin 40-turn research on Republic, the big key to get the better cash flow.

710 BC - Sun Tzu is under construction, so we are clearly way behind at the moment.

670 BC - We purchase mathematics from France for $5/turn and $50. Currency is now visible for purchase, and we can use marketplaces badly. There are only 4 mandatory techs to go.

570 BC - Our economy should start to improve a lot soon. Currency and marketplaces will arrive as soon as I can afford it. The double income of Republic is only 31 turns away.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LKENDTER-QSC18R3-570BC.zip



The redux concept was interesting on paper. However, I can tell knowing the world took a lot of the fun away for me.
If I participate in any future quick games, I will want to have a fresh map to play on.

91: 750 BC - Roman legionaries make appearances. Therefore it definitely seems Carthage should be my first target, if I ever reach war mode.

92: 730 BC - Richborough barracks->spearman. Entremont grows to 7, tax-collector hired. Egypt demands TM and 20 gold. I really can't afford to keep giving in to these. I decline. Thank god she backed down.

93: 710 BC - Entremont temple->spearman. Brempovia changed from courthouse to worker. These Iroquois settlers escorted by warriors in my territory are so tempting to capture. England completes the Great Lighthouse.

94: 690 BC - England learned Feudalism. 5 turns to Republic hopefully I can get Feudalism for it.

95: 670 BC - Verulamium temple->marketplace. Gergovia worker->worker.

96: 650 BC - Entremont spearman->spearman. The Romans keep suiciding on Bamicus Speedica. It's on a hill with at least 2 num merc's and an archer in it.

97: 630 BC - Brempovia worker->courthouse. Carthage, Greece, Japan and France learned Monotheism. Rome finally kills a num merc.

98: 610 BC - Camulodonum temple->marketplace. Richborough spearman->spearman. Egypt and Aztecs learned monotheism. Rome learned Feudalism.

99: 590 BC - We learn Republic! I revolt immediately and all my cities riot of course. I should have set them up for anarchy the turn before. But we're now a Republic. I set science back to 0. Lux down to 10%. My gpt deals also ended. We're now making 45gpt. The Republic and 3gpt to China for Feudalism, spices, incense, and 2 gold. I was hoping to get luxes from Rome but they seem to be trading them away already. Oh well Republic to Rome for WM and 9 gold. They wouldn't give me Feudalism for it before so I figure they must have it mostly researched already anyway. Now that I'm making all this money it's time to get ready for war. Richborough switched to warrior. Verulamium switched to warrior. Iron hooked up in 6. Some regular warriors disbanded. France completes the Hanging Gardens

100: 570 BC - Verulamium warrior->warrior. Entremont spearman->warrior. Lots of civ's learned Engineering. Damn it looks like Carthage and Rome made peace, they send their troops home. France completes Sun Tzu's Art of War. Jeez France and Aztecs get everything.

101: 550 BC - Lugdunum marketplace->spearman. I can afford Monotheism or Engineering but I hold off for now. I want to beat up Carthage.

102: 530 BC - Entremont spearman->spearman. Verulamium warrior->warrior. Richborough warrior->aqueduct. Rome got cities on both barb islands at some point, I just noticed them. Sorry for them. The barb camps are still there.

103: 510 BC - Rome learned Engineering. Even with their treasury stuck at 0. I think all the AI's are making off like bandits by selling luxes while we have none to sell.

104: 490 BC - Lleorycantores granary->harbor. Entremont spearman->spearman. Lugdunum spearman->spearman. Verulamium warrior->spearman. That puts the count at 10 veteran warriors, 9 veteran spearmen.

105: 470 BC - Iron connected. Gergovia worker->courthouse. 4 warriors upgraded so far. I take a loan out from the Aztecs, they give me 195 gold for 13gpt. Several cities switched to gallic swordsmen.

106: 450 BC - Alesia marketplace->barracks.

107: 430 BC - Brempovia, Gergovia, and Lleory changed to barracks. Tax-collector hired in Brempovia until it's connected to the road network. England learned Monarchy blah. I'm hoping they get Monotheism before Republic.

108: 410 BC - Lleorycantores barracks->gallic swordsman. Brempovia barracks->spearman.

109: 390 BC - Alesia barracks->gallic swordsman. Entremont gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman.

110: 370 BC - Damn entremont rioted. Bad :smoke: Lugdunum gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman.

111: 350 BC - Richborough gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. Invention is around. England learned the Republic. :( I knew I should have taken the 1gpt they were offering last turn.

112: 330 BC - Verulamium gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. Theology is around now too. All my warriors are now upgraded. We have 14 gallic swords and 9 spearmen. Our military is average to England and Iroquois, but weak to everyone else. I imagine Carthage's military isn't that much better than ours since they don't have much territory. Japan demands TM and 19g. I give it to him.

114: 290 BC - It's time for war. I declare war on Carthage. We enter a Golden Age! Our income rises to 98gpt! Plebis Magna captured with 1 casualty. Utica captured with 1 casualty. Ack Carthage has Chivalry.

115: 270 BC - Camulodonum marketplace->barracks. Gergovia barracks->pikeman. Lugdunum gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. Entremont gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. Alesia gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. I buy monotheism from France for WM, 39gpt, and 76g. Buy Engineering from Rome for Monotheism, WM, and 11gpt. Everyone but Rome and England has Theology, Chivalry, and Invention. Rome has Invention and England doesn't have any. I could buy Chivalry for 40gpt but it's really not worth it. Gallic swords are almost as good and they're cheaper to build.

116: 250 BC - Lleorycantores gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman. Richborough gallic swordsman->gallic swordsman.

117: 230 BC - Camulodonum barracks->gallic swordsman. Sabratha captured with 1 casualty. We also capture 2 catapults and their horses. Figures the Aztecs pillaged their horses last turn. It seems the Aztecs are still at war with them. Heh our military is still weak compared to Carthage. They value knights too highly.

118: 210 BC - We have enough cities for the Forbidden Palace now.

120: 170 BC - Blah our lux deal with China ends and all our cities riot. Doesn't make a pretty picture for the last turn of the QSC. Damn I attack Carthage and kill all their defenders except a 1hp knight remains. I just needed 1 more gallic. :( Well I wouldn't normally make peace with Carthage yet. I would capture their capital and probably their ivory city before making peace. But since this is the end of the QSC I make peace now. They give us Theology and Invention and we give them 59gpt and 158 gold. I maximize my commerce in my cities. I buy Chivalry from Rome for Theology, WM, 4gpt, and 107 gold. I buy Monarchy and 8 gold from England for Engineering and Monotheism. I now have all known techs. I buy Incense from the Iroquois for 8gpt.

Here is my final empire. Very ugly picture due to the riots.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/shillen_empire_final.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/QSC18r3-Shillen-170BC.SAV

What an incredible game Shillen! Sorry for reading it before playing myself, but my game feels pretty hopeless already. I won't keep on playing it.

It seems to me that getting republic early was the save for you. It made you able to exchange knowledge with the other civs and also get alot more gpt.

I am still a bit uncertain of how much one should expand in the beginning. In my game, I expanded so much, I had practically no military units or improvements at 750 bc. But perhaps that pays off when I get Republic around 100 bc or so.

Well, I managed to finish Gotm18, and here are my final 30 turns:

730 BC - Alesia fin Stlr, beg Spear; Lug fin Stlr beg Stlr

710 BC - Cultures expand; We get some culture space back from Carthage, and found Brempovia just N, NW of Gergovia; Syrplebonum founded near Veru; beg Warr; Augustodum founded SW of Alesia, beg Temple. Gergovia fin Warr, beg Spear

690 BC - Carthage founds Padmium on Coast; culturally cut off this way also; Entremont fin Stlr, beg Spear

670 BC - Cam, Rich in CD; Lux back to 20

650 BC - Rich fin Stlr, beg Stlr

630 BC - Entre fin Spear, beg Stlr

610 BC - Aztecs complete Hanging Gardens; Syrplebonum fin Warr, beg Temple; Agedincum founded on Coast; Alesia fin Spear, beg Spear; Cam fin Stlr, beg Stlr

590 BC - Settlers trying to sneak across Carthage culture to NW of Cam; Lleorycantores fin Work, beg Work; Worker goes to Iron

570 BC - Worker starts road to connect Iron; Workers improving Plains around Richborough and Cam

550 BC - Entre in CD; Lux to 30; Eboracum founded N of Rusicade; We have cultural connection to Lleorycantores

530 BC - Entre fin Stlr, beg Warr; Burdigala founded in N next to Lleory; beg Temple; change Cam to Temple and rush

510 BC - Greeks demand TM and 28 gold (1st demand this game); we accede; Rush Temples at August and Bremp

490 BC - Rich in CD, Lux to 20%; August and Bremp fin Temples, beg Spear

470 BC - Cataractonium founded on Hill to W of Entremont, beg Temple; Rich fin Stlr, beg Stlr; Lux to 10%; form Ent in Entremont

450 BC - Warriors being built; MM Lug to keep Lux at 10

430 BC - Lug fin Stlr, beg Temple; Lapurdum founded on Hill east of Richborough, beg Temple

390 BC - Iron connected; Upgrade 4 Warr to GS; Syrpleb fin Temp, beg Cata; Ritae founded E of Entremont, beg Cata; More catapults

370 BC - Distribute GS to Roman Front

350 BC - Rush temple in Eboracum

310 BC - Upgrade another GS; adjust Defenses vs Roman Units (2 Leg, 3 Spears, 1 Archer near Ritae)

290 BC - Rush Temple in Burdigala; 3 catapults built, more

270 BC - Catarctonum fin Temple, beg Spear; Hurry temple at Lug; adjust defenses

250 BC - Upgrade another GS; not sure what Rome is up to; About 10 Roman units (only 3 Legions), are going through my territory near Richborough and Camu; but, I've also seen about 10 units (almost all Legions) entering Iroq territory to the south (a stranded Warrior scout is fortified down there)

230 BC - Rush temple at Lapurdum; give France 14 Gold and TM when she insists

210 BC - Learn Currency, beg Monarchy

190 BC - Lindum founded

170 BC - Upgrade another GS

150 BC - End


Here is a zoomed image of my 'empire' at 150 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/cvst_G18D_bc150.jpg

my save game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/cvst_G18D_bc_150.sav

I've had no wars; only 2 or 3 demands. If I were to continue, I'd get about 3 or 4 more Gallic Swordsmen, and start declaring defensive wars. My goal would be to nick my opponents to death, and get some concessions (hopefully) during peace negotiations. Having a set of catapults gives me the ability to take several hitpoints off invaders prior to actual combat; I'd try to use that to my advantage. However, I do realize I'm incredibly far behind, and I don't think I'd stand much of a chance here.

This has been a good learning experience for me; I know a few things I could do to improve, and should do a bit better next time.

Here are my last 30 turns. I miss out twice on tech trades by a single turn. I think if I had sold my maps more as Shillen advises, I would have had a chance at getting the tech before the last player got it rather than after (I think that is why I could finally afford it) and would have been in a slightly stronger position. On currency, I just got unlucky. The last two civs got it between turn 39 and 40 of my research. I need to learn more about early wars. My attempt in this game was pretty pathetic though it did get me a golden age. In all I don't think I did badly for my level of expertise and I learned a lot, so it was a positive experience.

I would like to continue this game at some point, but will probably do GOTM19 first. If I do, I will post the ultimate result here.

750 BC(91): Entremont builds an archer which is sent to Camulodunum.
730 BC(92): France contacts us. I change the deal into one for construction. France will finally sell it. Entremont goes into disorder. Unfortunately, it is too late for any trades. Not good.
710 BC(93):Lugdunum goes into disorder. Alesia builds a spearman. Lux raised to 20%
690 BC(94): Galley lost. Alesia builds a spearman.
670 BC(95): Lugdunum builds a temple. Starts on a settler. Japan demands 4 gold and territory map. I am now at 0 gold and 0 gpt. Entremont builds an archer.
650 BC(96): Richborough builds a spearman which is sent N to Lleorycantores. Lleorycantores sends a warrior N to my town to be. Build brempovia SE of the mountain with iron. This is close to a Carthage city, though with no temples there is no overlap yet.
630 BC(97): Things look grim. I get currency, via research, but 1-2 turns late. 2 turns ago, 3 civs didn't have it. Now they all do so I can't trade it either. Even worse, Rome is looking like it is going to attack next turn. It has legionaires and I am still 4-5 turns to connecting my iron. I optimize for money and trade code of law for a gpt deal with Rome. If they attack, at least I will get code of laws out of it. They may have enough to destroy me though, so it may not really matter.
610 BC(98): No attack by Rome? They may be going for Carthage. I will be in trouble if they go for me. Sell granary in Entremont, as I want some cash in my account and the Entremont isn't using the granary. I change some towns to market places. If Rome isn't going to attack I need cash. If they do attack I will switch back. I sent most of my workers N to connect the Iron. I will need a golden age if I do get attacked. If rome IS going for carthage, it might be worth vulturing.
590 BC(99): Sell the Granary in Lugdunum. It too is just draining my economy. Decide to do my science by turning Bampovia's citizen into a scientist.
570 BC(100):Rome demands my 15 gold and Territory map. Given the huge number of forces crossing my land, I give it to him.
550 BC(101): Greece demands my Territory map. It is his. Most of my core cities are building market places. My economy is poo. The Carthage-Roman war is going to be held on my front yard it seems. Given that it is Legions VS Numidean Mercs, they are probably both in a golden age.
530 BC(102): And the people of the Celtic empire.
510 BC(103): Cower in their huts
490 BC(104): As the earth rumbles with clash of Roman and Carthaginian forces
470 BC(105): And the earth is stained red. Iron is now connected.
450 BC(106): Zzzz
430 BC(107):Aztecs seem to be getting most of the wonders. They have pyramids, great wall, great library, and hanging gardens.
410 BC(108): Lugdunum reaches size 7 and goes into disorder. Entremont finishes a marketplace and starts on a Gallic swordsman. I may try joining the Roman side of the war to get the gems. Something to consider.
390 BC(109): Lugdunum cannot support 7 and drops back to 6.
370 BC(110): Zzzz
350 BC(111): Move some spearmen to the less protected cities near the iron.
330 BC(112): Forgot that this will cause unrest. Add some Luxury to fix and readjust the towns.
310 BC(113):
290 BC(114): Gallic swordman completed in Entremont.
270 BC(115): Market place finished in Lugdunum, barracks started. Lleorycantores whips a temple.
250 BC(116): Temple finished in Lleorycantores.
230 BC(117): Richborough and Camulodunum finish their market places and start on spearmen. Upgrade a warrior to Gallic Swordman. Purchase Polytheism from france for 13 gpt and 8 gold. Enter the middle ages.
210 BC(118): I have a stack of archers and gallic swordsmen. My iron has some protection and Carthage appears to be losing. I think I will try to take the gem town. Ask Carthage to get off my lands. They declare war.
190 BC(119): There are too many defenders in the gem town. He is also has extra troops. My attack is ineffective.
170 BC(120): Trade Right of passage with Rome (in the hopes he can do better vs Carthage). Also decide to get pikemen since I have a goodly amount of gpt. Trade 75 gold 35 gpt and world map for Feudalism. Hopefully that will help vs any carthage attacks.

The save game for 170 bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/redux18_deity_greebley_bc170.sav)

Here is a final shot of my empirehttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/R18-Deity-Greebley-BC170.JPG

I would rate this game as far more difficult than your standard deity game. There are several reasons for this which I'll just list out as I think of them.

1) It's a pangaea map with 10 opponents. Lots of tech trades = a faster than normal tech pace.

2) The AI's got extra extra workers. They already get an extra settler and I believe 2 extra workers on deity, and then Cracker's modifications gave them even more. This resulted in the AI:
a. Researching faster due to all the extra roads.
b. Trading for techs more easily due to connecting luxuries/resources more quickly.
c. Expanding faster due to having more food and production to build settlers with.

3) The 'placed' barb camps in a remote location. All the AI's know where the barb camps are without even exploring. They make it a top priority to extinguish barbarians and therefore all sent their starting units towards them. This led to the AI's contacting each other much more quickly than usual, and the human player could not get as much out of trading contacts as s/he normally would.

4) Lack of luxuries/resources near the human start position. It was only possible to get 2 sources of iron, 1 gems, and 1 source of horses at best. This wasn't likely though. It wasn't even easy to get 1 source of all 4. This hurts the human player in a couple ways. The obvious way is the human player didn't have those resources/luxuries for their own personal use. But also the human player had very little to trade to the AI's to get better deals with. Check out SP6 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49270) in the Succession Games Forum if you want to see how extremely helpful being able to trade a resource like iron to the AI is. They literally got several techs for free just by letting another civ use their iron.

So I'd say just surviving until 170BC is a feat in itself with this game.

Allow me to join Controlfreak in expressing my apologies for signing up and not having participated. The fact is, a sinus/upper respiratory infection came knocking, and I was barely able to complete the GOTM, submitting on April 30th. I had considered playing it today, and adding my posts belatedly; however, since I have already seen the results of QSC18, I think it would be quite unfair. I am the one who missed out, as this could have been an excellent learning opportunity. Again, my apologies, and I hope that you all have had fun.