This thread is somewhat of a spoiler for Gotm18-Celts because it uses the same map and exact same game setup positions so if you have not yet completed that game but still plan on submitting then you should probably avoid this thread.

This thread is for player timelines and progress reports to track and score progress of this Quick Game so you can just experiment with extreme barbarian effects.

The basic barbarian is the Pictish Warrior increased to an ADM of 2/1/2
The advanced barbarian is the Gallic or European Swordsman at 3/2/2 (just like your UU)

Tech rate progess will be faster than normal because the map tech rate factor is reduced by 25% and the Minimum tech turns is set to 3 while the maximum tech turns is set to 30.

(note that this fast tech pace will make it harder to compare your games outside of this Quick Game set but it should let the game take less time while still allowing you to experience the chalenge of the barbs.)


This game is setup for you on Monarch difficulty just like the original game. DO NOT SUBMIT this game to the GOTM or QSC scoring submissions or Mojo Jojo will come to your house and turn your computer into a kitty litter box. It is very important that you do not post about this game in the main Gotm discussion threads at this time. Because this game is an extreme variant of normal play, there may be nothing about this game that can really be discussed in the main GOTM discussion threads. We will ahve to wait until you get done and compare note to see what you think the impacts might be.

The way you should play the game for the first 120 turns is to think carefully about what you are doing and take some key timeline notes about what you do in the game. You can find lots of good examples of timelines in the QSC results threads in the main GOTM forum.

The real end point for this game is after at least TWO CIVILIZATIONS have entered into the Middle Ages to stimulate a massive barbarian uprising.

Divide your time line up into nice concise 30 turn blocks of time plus you want to take a break exactly at 1000bc. Here is a brief schedule outline:

turn 30 - first timeline break (no save file required)
turn 60 - second timeline break - 1525bc save file required
turn 80 - 1000bc (optional save to compare to the real Qsc)
turn 90 - 775bc third timeline break - (no save file required)
turn 120 - fourth timeline break - 170bc save file required (fixed from 570 typo)
(you may have to continue a few more 30 turn blocks but I doubt it.)

You need to complete play and report your timeline events through turn60 by the end of the day on Friday, April 25th if at all possible.
Hold off and do not post any information about turns 61 through 120 until after Monday April, 28th. This will provide a little break for any discussion and will also help to keep the group together a bit.

After you complete to turn 120, there will be a short discussion break and then you will be free to play the rest of the game if you wish.

We will use the QSC scoring format to designate a winner and a runner up for this warlord group when we reach the turn 120 mark.

REMEMBER that you must have read and followed the setup instructions for Gotm18-Celts in order for this game to run on your software without crashing. We know the game works perfectly so 99.995% of all crashes will absolutely be traced to failing to read and follow the setup instructions.

Good luck in your game, this could be pretty bloody and brutal, and remember to share and have fun. ;)

Here are your save files:

Redux18 Barbarian Insanity for PTWv1.14f or PTW v1.21f (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/redux18_start_ptw_barbs.sav)

Redux18 Barbarian Insanity for Civ3v1.29 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/redux18_start_v1_29_barbs.sav)

Hi guys, here are my first 30 turns. Since I haven't participated in anything like this b4, if there is anything I can do to improve my reports please say. I have assumed that everyone has played the original GOTM18. Cracker may have to delete this post if that is not his intent. Fingers crossed.

First off I know the map. I think that I can get away with just 2 warriors to explore, and they will be used to establish contacts with other civs ASAP. I don't need to investigate the local terrain.

I won't be building early wonders. In the GOTM I built the pyramids as I thought it important and I didn't want it built on the other side of the map where I couldn't take it.

My strategy will be to immediately improve the BG tiles that connect my intended core city sites. Those sites will be split into two types. One for barracks then units in areas of high shield potential and the other for workers and settlers in high food potential sites. I will build around the lakes so I can get to size 7 without Aqueduct as far as possible. This is not necessary for this game but it's how I would play a full game.

I will trade for and buy techs. I will research slowly. I intend to get iron hooked up at around 1000BC, start building units and take out Rome, Greece and Carthage b4 the end of this quick game. (Fat chance) ;)

Brief timeline:

4000BC. Found Entremont on start tile. Research Mysticism 20% and start building warrior.

3750BC. Complete warrior, start another. Warrior 1 explores south.

3550BC. Complete warrior, start another. Warrior 2 explores West.

3350BC. Complete warrior, start settler. Warror 3 fortifies.

3150BC. Trade for Bronze working and alphabet

3050BC. End of timeline.

At this point I have contact with Rome, Greece and Carthage and am equal last with Greece in Firaxis points (67).


A full and reproducible timeline including minimap is included here in MS Excel format.

Well, here we go...

Thought I'd build good warriors in the hope that they upgrade quicker when I meet hundreds of Barbarians! However, that meant wasting valuable time building barracks. I still have only 1 town and it's stopped growing at the grand age of '3'!! Not sure why yet, but a settler will appear soon.
Mad Bax has kindly let me use his spread sheet to keep track of my moves so hopefully I can see where my mistakes are happening more clearly, somehow, I think XL will run out of cells before I complete this game!

Thoughts upfront: I know I should use knowledge of the map, but I do so like the first part of the game, so I just wanna jump in and see where it ends, so here goes!

4000BC (1) - We found where we stand and start building a warrior. Tech is cheaper, but still need to decide eihter DIY or not. Me thinks we'll go for the money this time 'round to support our minions, AFTER we researched Pottery, or should I go visit the Iroquois first. Mmm. Lets try that! So it's (10.0.0) for 3gpt. Worker moves SW. Warrior started.

3950BC (2) - Worker starts mine.

3900BC (3) - Zzzz

3850BC (4) - Zzzz

3800BC (5) - Zzzz

3750BC (6) - Warrior1 built, leaves to find the Iroquois (S)

3700BC (7) - Warrior1 SE

3650BC (8) - Warrior1 S, Worker completes mine starts road, Warrior2 now due in 2, growth in 3.

3600BC (9) - Warrior1 S.

3550BC (10) - Warrior2 built, leaves for Greece (SW). Entremont starts Warrior3. Warrior1 SW.

3500BC (11) - We meet an Iroqy warrior and trade Warrior Code for Pottery and 10g. They say we're backwards, we'll show them later :satan:. Warrior2 W, Warrior3 S, Worker goes to bonus grass.

3450BC (12) - Warrior1 S, Warrior2 W, Worker starts mine

3400BC (13) - We meet the Greek. Buy Bronze Working for 43g and 1gpt from Iroquois. Warrior3 stays home to leave with the settler we're starting. Warrior1 S, Warrior2 SW. Start IW for 1g so it's (8.2.0) for 2gpt.

3350BC (14) - Warrior1 S finds hut! Ai, what to do next, it's Monarch so there's an off chance it is hiding a settler. Mmm. Warrior2 SW. E will grow in 7, produce settler in 7, but when the mine is finished the settler will there before E, is size 3, damn, should have irrigated first! Changed to granary.

3300BC (15) - Great! We meet the neoCartagians first, they lack Pottery, Warrios Code *and* Ceremonial Burial. They have Masonry and Alphabet. They probably almost finished Pottery so I have to throw in 1gpt and 16 gold. We make the deal. It turns them polite. We're at tech parity with Greece but Iroq has Mysticism now. Warrior1 is closer to the Ai then to E. so we open the hut and.... get map of the region :p.

3250BC (16) - Warrior2 continues west. Warrior1 turns east to meet the Romans.

3200BC (17) - Warrior1 E, Warrior2 W.

3150BC (18) - Warrior1 E, Warrior2 W. Worker moves S to irrigate.

3100BC (19) - Warrior1 E, Warrior2 finds brown (neoCart) border.

3050BC (20) - Warrior1 E spots red (Roman) border, Warrior2 W.

3000BC (21) - Meet Rome, they lack CB and Masonry, sell them CB for 35g (all they have). He's Cautious. Warrior1 E, Warrior2 W.

2950BC (22) - Warrior1 E, Warrior2 S.

2900BC (23) - Ahum, irrigation doesn't have affect until you're out of Despotism, I knew that... :wallbash: :crazyeye: Worker builds road. warrior1 S (on his way to the English), Warrior2 S (on the mountain).

2850BC (24) - Warrior1 SE, Warrior2 W, Greece has the Wheel and an extra city. Iroquois have Myst. and IW.

2800BC (25) - E. builds granary starts settler(5 turns). Warrior1 S, Warrior2 W

2750BC (26) - Warrior1 S, Warrior2 W, Worker moves to BG and starts mine.

2710BC (27) - Iroq got/bought the Wheel. Warrior1 S, Warrior2 W and finds the mediteranean lake.

2670BC (28) - Warrior1 S, Warrior2 NW

2630BC (29) - Rome founds Veii, Warrior1 S, Warrior2 N

2590BC (30) - E. builds settler. Warrior3 joins him SW. E. starts Warrior. Warrior1 S, Warrior2 N.

We have:
- 3 warriors and 1 settler, E has 1 pop and a granary, and will grow in 1 turn.
- 49 gold and -1gtp (8.2.0), IW in 13 (2gpt payments will finish in 6 turns).
- met four civs (2 polite, 2 cautious), we have all the first tier techs except for the Wheel.
- one mined+roaded BG tile, one mined BG tile, one irrigated+roaded Grass tile.

Well I don't think I did much better then the first go, but it's ok so far. Like mad-bax I used the knowledge of the map to keep one of the first 3 warriors home to defend the city.

just found this - MAD-BAX ... thanks for the pointer.

Downloading now. At least I'll get to do something now - not enough of the month left for me to do GOTM18 (i'm kinda slow usually) , since I've just finished freelancer, and that ate my last 38 gaming hours - gotta say it was nice "me flying and 'em dying !!!"

I'll jump straight in, an post asap. Do you want 30 turns segments posted, as done here, or would you rather have a "qsc-like" timeline?

Hi Wanderer, glad you could make it ::thumbsup:

A space oddity: Nice timeline. I enjoyed reading it. :goodjob:

Since I only covered 20 turns instead of 30 in my first report I'll fill in the gap here.

3050: Trade Masonry from Carthage. Forgot to write down details of trade. Sorry.

3000: Start Granary pre-build in Entremont. This is a bit scary as I don't have pottery and am not researching it. Don't think I would have taken the gamble if I didn't know the map. Also I'm not really sure whether a granary here is really worthwhile as it has no food bonuses. I am just not confident that I can build cities quickly enough without it.

2950: Found Alecia 3 tiles NW of Entremont. (fish) and prebuild granary.

2670: Meet polite Iroquois and trade their pottery for alphabet and 8G

2630: Meet polite France. They have nothing I want. Normally I would give her a tech or two, but I'm in no hurry to research. I want time to build some GS units b4 the uprising.

2550: Complete Mysticism start Polytheism (8.2.0). Buy wheel from Iroquois for Mysticism and 25g. Again, normally I would have held off a couple of turns so that I could trade my new tech for several others. Probably still should have even in the context of this game.

And so it ends. I'm not sure if I am doing any better second time round either. Because I am not building pyramids I should end up with a few more cities. If I can get more than 10 by 1000BC I'll be happy.

I have completed to turn 60 now but will hold off posting until tomorrow night.

One point I would like to raise about the barbarians. We don't see much of them around our start location, and in the full GOTM the uprisings were on the barb peninsula (in my game). If we don't take the cork out of the bottle by removing the volcanos from the choke points will we see barbs at all? :hmm:

That's what I thought when I started replaying. In my GOTM game the vulcano's were defeated by the AI eventually. I did have some trouble then with my nothern cities there. How I solved it, you can read somewhere in the GOTM threads. (I don't want to make it too easy to find it ;) )

I went with a complete different direction than I would normally just to have some different fun here. Namely I'm going the archer route (and also trying an extremely early granary as you'll see below). This wasn't something I decided before I started since you'll notice I started researching iron which wouldn't be needed.

I left out the gaps when nothing is really going on.

4000 BC
worker to mine and road north shieldland
settler moves northwest
3950 BC
founded Fort Entremont building warrior
0.10.0 Pottery (18)
3700 BC
:P Fort Entremont finished warrior now prebuilding for granary
warrior exploring west
3450 BC
Fort Entremont (2)
0.10.0 Pottery (4)
3350 BC
met Hannibal, hold off any trading
3300 BC
5.5.0 Pottery (1)
3250 BC
Fort Entremont switched to granary
0.10.0 Bronze Working (13)
Hannibal won't trade, sees my warrior and my evil intentions no doubt
warrior takes two Carthage slaves declaring war on Hannibal
slaves heading east
3200 BC
mercenary appears defending Carthage
warrior pillages hill improvements
3150 BC
warrior dies after second Carthage warrior attack
slaves will attempt some diversionary tactics going back to Fort Entremont, but wait at a safe distance to track any attack force
3100 BC
Fort Entremont (3)
0.9.1 Bronze Working (10)
2850 BC
Fort Entremont finished granary now building archer
2750 BC
Fort Entremont (4)
0.8.2 Bronze Working (2)
2670 BC
Fort Entremont finished archer now building worker
archer kills Carthage warrior now 4/4
slaves start roading and mining shieldlands, separately, diversion didn't work and they aren't together
0.8.2 Iron Working (27)
2590 BC
Fort Entremont (4) finished worker now building settler
worker to chop forest
archer rests, then heads west to harass/spy Carthage


Not much happened, got two valuable slaves. Had an interesting build timing issue to get that archer out before the carthage warrior arrived, and in fact he was right next to my capital the turn my archer was done. I figured this ahead of time since I could see the warrior moving with the slaves I took. He delayed a turn because he was wounded when he killed my initial warrior. And he took the most direct route despite the AI's usual gory facination with killing workers. Of course had my archer not won the battle all would be lost. Not my earliest loss but pretty bad on anything but diety. One warrior and declaring war on nearest neighbor is not for the faint of heart. :) Its hard to say wether this was worth it, that archer wasn't part of the plan, I should have been building a settler at that point, and all the slider juggling was because Entremont got too large.

Another minor difference was that I build the mine first instead of the road in the hopes this would help that early granary. I had to micromanage production down towards the end since I got pottery only 1 turn before I would have finished building the temple, this only applies to religious civs, it wouldn't be an issue otherwise. Of course a better gold starting point would have gotten pottery much earlier.

I planned to do very little exploration and once that initial warrior was killed I was at war with Carthage the entire segment and then some... So all spare production was spent on archers to fight off the hordes. I also hoped to get an early leader this way. Too bad the closest two civs have the best ancient age defense units.

Hmmm - these all look quite similar.

Me so far:

- Ok-ish. Am working wat to turn 60 now, and worried about martial strength! I'm gonna head for something like 10 cities (maybe) by 1000 bc if I can - with Tight build radius.

now - if I can just figure out how to attach the damn timeline ...

timeline attached now

I apologise in advance for the length of this post but I have an idea that I would like to air.....timeline first though.

Turn 31 thru 60

2350BC: Traded Iron Working from greece for Mysticism, Pottery and 17G

2310BC: Meet Cautious China and polite Aztechs. Get Horseback Riding from hut. The first tech I've got from a hut in about 6 games.

1910BC: Found Lugdunum

1870BC: Meet Annoyed Japan.

1725BC: Found Camalodunum

1550BC: Found Richborough

1525BC: Found Verulamium. Finish Polytheism, start Monarchy. Trade contact with Romans for Aztech writing and 15G. Swap contacts to get contact with the 2 remaining CIVS (England and Egypt).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/turn60c.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/turn60b.jpg

Fairly uneventful development. But that will all change very soon.

Now to the plan. I've been thinking about what Cracker said about living a little. I've been playing this game for around 10 weeks now and have just been learning and copying what the better players do, and I don't know if I am capable of original thought or not.

10 years ago my Doom Clan gave me my present nickname because A) the film was out, B) its an obvious wordplay on my name and C) I did stupid things like standing next to a wall and firing a rocket against said wall propelling me accross chasms too big to jump (surviving occaisionally). I thought I would do something similar in this game....

I am going to build walls in all cities and even (try to) build the Great Wall. I am going to fill my northern cities with GS units and move all my workers south. Just before the barbarian uprising happens I am going to Kill the volcanos and blow raspberries at the barbarians. Because of all the camps and the raging setting I could easily see 2 or three hundred hardened barbs pour through the choke point. They will become my (albeit undisciplined) instant army.

I hope that the PTW AI will persuade the barbs to attack everyone else who have not prepared, and I will try to facilitate this by getting the barbs to chase a hanfull of units deep into Carthage and France. Barbs that attack my northern cities will upgrade my UU's. I am not even going to build barracks.

Then I am just going to walk into all of the cities pillaged by the Barbs. I am worried that all of the barbs will just pour into the first city they come across. But we'll see.

Questions, comments and emotional outbursts can be directed in the usual manner. :)

Smirk: I've always wanted to know how the Archer rush works in practice, and how a war that early affects a game. Looks like I'll be finding out :)

Here is my reproducible timeline and save game:
[Edit] Savegame too big even when zipped. What do I do now?

2550BC (31) - Settler pair S, Warrior1 S, Warrior2 NW.

2510BC (32) - Alesia founded starts Barracks, will build worker next. E. builds Warrior, starts Settler.

Warrior1 S, Warrior2 NW.

2470BC (33) - Buy Mysticism from Greece for 2gpt and 35 gold, plan to sell it to neoCart. for IW and maybe trade that for The Wheel with either Iroquois or Greece. They don't want to sell IW... grr :mad: . Warrior1 S, Warrior2 W.

2430BC (34) - Just realised the English are on their island. Must be past your bedtime, space oddity! Warrior1 S, Warrior2 N.

2390BC (35) - Warrior2 N spots Pink border. Warrior1 S spots Orange border! :)

2350BC (36) - France lacks CB, she has 35 gold. Iroquois have writing and are willing to trade The Wheel for contact with Rome! Suckers, the good it'll do to them. One thing I learned from this GOTM was not to sell contact too soon. The AI will trade amongst each other much quicker then they will with the human player. So I keep them back a bit. Warrior1 SW, Warrior2 W.

2310BC (37) - Meet the English and sell them The Wheel for 85 gold (all they have). They also lack Masonry and Mysticism.

2270BC (38) - E. completes the settler, starts warrior. Warrior1 NW, Warrior2 W.

2230BC (39) - Warrior1 NW in search of the Chinese, Warrior2 SW to find the Aztec.

2190Bc (40) - Lugdunum founded, starts Barracks. Warrior1 NW, Warrior2 SW.

2150BC (41) - Worker finishes road and moves NW. Warrior1 NW, Warrior2 S.

2110BC (42) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 SE.

2070BC (43) - We researched IW and start Math at 10%. Switched Alesia to Settler. Buy HR from Carthage for 85 gold.

2030BC (44) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 S

1990BC (45) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 S, Worker starts mine on BG.

1950BC (46) - Swap Iroquois contact with the English, who are backward and broke, with 14gold and contact with the Chinese. They are willing to trade Writing and 4 gold (all they have) for Mysticism and Contact with the English and the Romans (both broke and lacking techs). Met the Aztecs. They only want to trade their contacts for France, which I won't do yet. Greece has Lit. We are at par with or more advanced then the others, good!

1910BC (47) - E. builds settler, starts warrior. Warrior1 W, Warrior2 W.

1870BC (48) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 W.

1830BC (49) - Camulodunum founded, starts Barracks. Warrior1 W, Warrior2 W.

1790BC (50) - We meet Japanese, who are very backward and nearly broke (10 gold), but they do have 5 cities.

1750BC (51) - E. starts another settler. Moved science to 20%, to make some progress. Warrior1 SW, Warrior turns S to meet the Egyptians.

1725BC (52) - Settler from Alesia will move to the iron accompanied by a warrior. Alesia builds another warrior.

1700BC (53) - Lugdunum builds worker, starts settler.

1675BC (54) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 S. Change Lugdunum to archer (it has barracks, let's start some attacking power.

1650BC (55) - Worker2 starts mine on BG. Warrior1 NW, Warrior2 SE.

1625BC (56) - Warrior1 W, Warrior2 S, meets Egyption Warrior. She has nothing we need: a measely 5 gold and we are three techs up! She's polite...

1600BC (57) - Entremont builds another settler, it'll move E in search of the horsies. Alesia builds Warrior, starts, hmm, I would like another settler, but will have to wait for it to grow and it has rax as well so it'll build our second vet archer. Richborough founded next to the Iron, it starts a worker. Warrior1 NW, Warrior2 SE.

1575BC (58) - Cam. builds worker, starts barracks. We have met everyone now, so the warriors will head home. A quick round learns us the AI have no new techs.

1550BC (59) - Zzzz

1525BC (60) - Zzzz

We have:
5 cities, one settler.
All cities have one warrior, two are on the road. One vet archer ready, one underway.
Tech par or better, Greece has one tech up. Math ready in 18 turns at (8.2.0).
117 gold, 7 gpt.
Iron will be available soon, as will Horses.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Space_Odd_redux18_1500BC_minimap.JPG

my save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_redux18_v1_29_barbs_1525BC.zip)

Here is segment two, still at war with Hannibal. I have an archer harrasing his units when they come out. No horses so he can only move into my range before I can attack. And he wouldn't dare put a worker there to build a road. I intended to do this until his losses made him give me something for peace.


2430 BC
Fort Entremont (5) [mmh]
2390 BC
Fort Entremont (3) finished settler now building settler [mms]
settler heads north
archer sets up defensive position on hill outside Utica
2310 BC
2.7.1 Iron Working (21)
2270 BC
met Hiawatha from his exploring warrior, has three cities and a monstrous score
founded Fort Alesia now building barracks, settled on northwest edge of lake sharing fish
2230 BC
Fort Entremont [mmg]
1.8.1 Iron Working (11), should have done this last turn have 1g budget surplus
2190 BC
met Alex from his exploring warrior
Fort Entremont (2) finished settler now building settler [mmfish]
settler heads north to other side of lake
2150 BC
2.8.0 Iron Working (10)
2070 BC
mercenary dies attacking archer on hill
founded Fort Lugdunum now building barracks
met Mao, somehow
2030 BC
Fort Entremont (3) [mmg]
2.7.1 Iron Working (5)
1990 BC
Fort Entremont (1) finished settler now building barracks [normal]
settler moves south
2.8.0 Iron Working (5)
1910 BC
Fort Alesia (2)
1870 BC
Fort Entremont (2)
Fort Alesia finished barracks now building spearman
9.1.0 Iron Working (1)
1830 BC
founded Fort Camulodunum building barracks
9.1.0 Wheel (30)
met Monte, somehow
archer kills Carthage archer
1790 BC
archer moves back to hill
1750 BC
slaves to road to Fort Camulodunum
workers to road to Fort Lugdunum
Fort Entremont finished barracks now building archer
archer kill Carthage archer now 1/4
1725 BC
archer moves back to hill
Fort Entremont (3)
8.1.1 Wheel (27)
1700 BC
Fort Lugdunum (2) finished barracks now building settler
1675 BC
Fort Entremont finished archer now building worker
archer to explore south and find first conquest target (ie Rome)
1650 BC
Fort Alesia (3) finished archer now building settler
archer goes to support other archer on hill
7.1.2 Wheel (24)
1625 BC
Alex settled a city directly south of Fort Entremont, one tiles from border
Fort Entremont (3) finished worker now building settler
1550 BC
Fort Camulodunum (2) finished barracks now building archer


The next segment is when the real action began.

BTW where do I submit the saves? Its too big for an attachment?

Smirk the secret to linking the saves is to use the "Easy Upload" feature at th bootm of the forum pages and then to learn to use one of two functions in the vBCode section of the message posting form.

You need to know the full "properties" or URL of the uploaded file and then you can link to it by justs inserting the text of the URL into the message as a separate line or by using the "http" command.

If the file is an image file you can link to it OR you have the extra option of using the IMG tage to actually call the image into the message just as done below:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/smiley_bluesbro.gif

That image is produced by the code tag insert of:


{IMG}http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/smiley_bluesbro.gif{/IMG}

except the { } brackets should be replaced with [ ]

Here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/madbax-turn60.zip) is my save at turn 60

Mad-bax - regarding your plan: Seems like a good thing to try, it has a chance in PTW with 'smarter' barbs. As I am playing this using CivIII, I'm trying to build up a good sized military force, maybe use the AI as training material. What worked when I had a city on barb island was keeping the city empty and use every gold I had so no real harm was done. In the end my units were strong enough to fight the barbs of and raze their camps (with a little help of my friends :) ).
This time once the cork is gone they'll be coming at my core cities so some good defence is called for. Maybe a defence leader will be the result , now that *would* be good. :D

Sorry about being so late guys; I think I just make the deadline.

I did use a lot of my prior knowledge to help myself out; as a result, even though I didn't do very well in the QSC (although I did eventually win - my first GOTM victory, and my 2nd GOTM), I did quite a bit better here. I did, however, make the odd mistake - this is warts and all.

Here's turns 1-30:

Herein are the chronicles of Gazza666 The Doomed, foolish upstart who thinks he can bring "civilisation" to a world that contains a lot of big tough uncivilised dudes.

-4000/1:
From GOTM18, I know that the starting square is reasonable, so I plonk down Entremont immediately and start on a warrior (I'm going to need them). Worker goes SW to the BG. I decide to go 100% for Bronze Working; I think I can meet the Iriquois and get Pottery.

-3950/2:
Start mining the BG.

-3800/5:
BT: Warrior produced. Another is started.

-3750/6:
Warrior heads S. He's going S and SW in an attempt to contact the Iriquois.

-3650/8:
Mine completed. Road started.

-3600/9:
BT: 2nd warrior produced. Barracks started.

-3550/10:
The 2nd warrior heads SW. He's going to try and find the Greeks.
BT: Borders expand. Entremont -> size 2.

-3500/11:
MM Entremont to work the mined/roaded BG and the BG to the west of the mined/roaded BG (so that the worker can improve it immediately). Road completed; worker moves W. My first warrior spots an Iriquois warrior. Diplomatic ties are opened; he will trade Pottery + 10g for Warrior Code, which I am more than happy to do (indeed, that was the whole plan! OK, so it's not much of a plan - kind of on the scale of "I know what to do - let's try WINNING!" but still, it's a plan. Look up there for turn 6 - definitely forward planning there. Anyway... the Iriquois also have Mysticism, but there's obviously no way I can pry that out of them just yet.

-3450/12:
Having found the Iriquois, that warrior turns and starts to head west. In GOTM 18, I ended up buying a lot of contacts, but it occurs to me that I might be able to find the Chinese. The worker starts mining the BG. I consider for a moment, and then switch the warrior (1 turn to go in Entremont) into a granary. It will probably be worth it.

-3300/15:
My second warrior finds a scouting Carthage warrior. They have Bronze Working, Masonry, and Alphabet, but lack Pottery, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial. I quickly check with the Iriquois before doing any deals: and it's just as well, because the Iriquois have those three as well (Mysticism, too, of course). So I won't be getting any brokering opportunities, it seems. I go back to Carthage - for just Pottery + Warrior Code, they will trade all three of their techs plus 10g. I do this; I still have Ceremonial Burial over them. Science is switched to Iron Working. I check with the Iriquois; they only have Mysticism over me. (I note that I'm doing a LOT better than in GOTM18 at this point. It definitely helps to know the map. Yes, yes, I realize all of you are saying "derr" at this point, but I'm still a relative neophyte).

-3150/18:
Worker finishes mining, and starts roading. Entremont will grow before the granary completes, but there's nothing really to do about that.

-3050/20:
Borders of a Carthage city founded (Carthage itself, I know from the borders and from GOTM18 - but I can't actually see the name yet in this game). Neither Iriquois nor neoCarthage have anything new to offer; I'm checking every turn or two.

-3000/21:
Entremont -> size 3, so tax set to 0/8/2 to prevent a riot (yes, I'm still going without defenders; the hope is that the barbs aren't going to show up until I get a barracks down, at least). Worker finishes the road. I check Entremont to make sure that the third square it is working is the BG to the N; it is. I send the worker there.
BT: I don't make the top eight largest nations list. I believe I will be able to live with myself, however. (Incidentally, the Iriquois aren't on it either, although the Pathetic Carthaginians slip in at 6th).

-2950/22:
Start mining the third BG. I walk my warrior into Carthage's borders so I can see it; it's still only size 1. Obviously the Carthage AI is doing a "build settler when you hit size 3" trick - is that common? It's generally not a very efficient method, but I guess that's one of the advantages that the human player has. Granary in Entremont only has 5 shields to go, so I MM it to work the lake and the 2 roaded BG. That way I get a little extra commerce - enough to make a difference? Probably not, but it makes the report a little more interesting and portrays me as a careful, thoughtful player. :)
BT: I get the demand to skedaddle from Carthage, to which I happily acquiesce. Also, a Greek hoplite approaches Carthage - hmm... In other news, my granary completes, and I start a barracks.

-2900/23:
I dial up Greece, but of course they have all of my tech and even a little more cash than I do (41 to my 30). They do not, however, have any MORE tech than I do. Anyway, the warrior near Carthage heads out of their radius, and will now head N to try and spot France.

-2800/25:
BT: A Roman warrior appears near Entremont.

-2750/26:
I dial Rome. He lacks Masonry and Ceremonial Burial. It isn't really worth it, but I sell him Masonry for 10g. F8 shows me in last place - of course - but not by much. I note that my Barracks will complete next turn, and then I remember that I didn't switch the citizen off the lake back in turn 23. Oops. Oh well, I'll remember next turn.
BT: Barracks completed; spearman started.

-2710/27:
I do remember this time, and switch my citizen to work the BG that is being mined.

-2670/28:
Mine complete; road started.

-2630/29:
BT: Spearman completed. Settler started (yes, I probably will need one at some point!)

-2590/30:
Tax back to 0/10/0 (it occurs to me that I could probably have lowered it to 0/9/1 at some point, but I forgot to check). Spearman fortifies. Diplomatic check: Greece has the Wheel (won't sell) and Iriquois has Mysticism. Rome and Carthage both lack Ceremonial Burial. There is a possibility of brokerage here; I have 15 turns to go for Iron Working.

That's 1-30; stay tuned for 31-60 following. I realise it wasn't required, but here's a save file for 2590bc.

OK, hot on the heels are turns 31-60 ("wherein gazza makes a bunch of trivial mistakes to prove he's actually a lot less good than he thinks he is").

-2550/31:
Entremont -> size 4, so I change the tax to 0/9/1. Road complete; worker moves W to another BG and I MM Entremont to work that square.

-2510/32:
Start mining the 4th BG.
BT: A Chinese archer appears near my southern warrior.

-2470/33:
I dial up China. Ouch; they have both the Wheel and Mysticism, as well as all my tech. Nothing I can offer them. I MM Entremont to work the coast square instead of the unimproved BG for 1 turn; it will still pop the settler, and it will give me a little more commerce.
BT: Entremont builds settler; spearman started.

-2430/34:
There is a wheat to the SE that is also near a fish lake; I send the settler there (unescorted). Tax back to 0/10/0.

-2390/35:
Iron Working has dropped from 11 turns to 9. Entremont didn't grow, so the only possibility is that someone else has it. Greece, it appears - from just the Wheel, they now also have Iron Working, Writing, and Mysticism. They have communications with the Aztecs. Possibly the Aztecs traded them all this? Hmm... the Iriquois have the same as the Greeks... but China doesn't. It looks as if I'm still the only one who knows China.

-2350/36:
Entremont -> size 3. I MM it to work 2 BG and a coast, since it will still get the spearman just as fast.

-2310/37:
I MM Entremont to work 1 BG and 2 coast - again, the spearman will still come in just as fast. Why am I racing? Because China doesn't have Iron Working yet, and if I can get it before Greece or Iriquois trade it to them, then I can acquire the Wheel and Mysticism.
BT: Spearman completes; walls started.

-2270/38:
I leave the citizens working the coast tiles; I can get the walls in two by moving them back next turn. Mine completes; road started.

-2230/39:
Iron Working dropped from 3 turns to 1. And so I check... BUGGER! China just got Iron Working. The bright side is that if they were researching it, then obviously it wouldn't have been worth much. I should have gone with something else - but hindsight is always 20/20, I suppose. I switch the citizens in Entremont back to working BG, and I change the tax rate to 9/1/0, which is still enough to get IW.
BT: Iron Working discovered. Mathematics started. Entremont builds walls; settler started.

-2190/40:
Tax left at 9/1/0. I will try a min-science gambit. I note that Greece knows the Japanese, French, and the Aztecs, and so do the Iriquois.

-2150/41:
Entremont -> 4; however, the 2 spearmen defending it mean that no lux tax is needed. Road finished. Worker moves E, S, E. Alesia built near the wheat. Alesia starts building a worker.

-2110/42:
neoCarthage has Writing. They will trade it for Iron Working, Ceremonial Burial, and contact with the Romans (they're RIGHT NEXT TO YOU, IDIOTS!) I do the trade. Then the Romans will trade contact with the Japanese, French, and Aztecs for Writing; I do that, too. The Japanese lack Writing, but have Mysticism and the Wheel. The French are the same; the Aztecs are similar, except that they also lack Iron Working. I trade Iron Working to the Aztecs for the Wheel + 5g; I then note that Horseback Riding is also available. So I trade Writing to Japan for Horseback Riding + 5g; then Writing to the Aztecs for Mysticism (France wanted a lot more for it). Finally, I sell it to France for 10g. I now have tech parity with the world (Greece doesn't have Horseback Riding yet!) I have the worker build a road; the fifth BG won't be in use for a while yet anyway, so there's no hurry to mine and road it.

-2070/43:
My southern scouting warrior pops a hut and gets Pictish Warriors. About time! Yep, 2/1/2, just like the scenario said.
BT: My warrior valiantly kills off one of the two barbarians - promoting in the process - but the other one kills him. Settler produced in Entremont; spearman started.

-2030/44:
The settler heads SW, W, S; he's headed for the square one more to the S, which brings lots of BG into the radius.

-1990/45:
Road completed; worker moves SE.

-1950/46:
Lugdunum established. Starts on Walls. Worker starts mining. Entremont is MM to work 2 BG and a coast tile; once again with the commerce bonus in mind.

-1910/47:
Entremont MM to work 1 BG and 2 coast tiles. I know this is very tedious, but it's worth an extra couple of gold and that could turn out to be important. Aztecs know the Egyptians; nobody else does. They will sell for 55g + 3gpt; I pay it. Egypt doesn't know anybody, and they are very backwards. I sell them Contact with the Carthaginians (the least advanced) for 10g. It was probably a mistake to buy this contact; only the Iriquois will pay anything reasonable for it (20g), and I might as well sell it to everyone since otherwise neoCarthage will flog it for techs. I get 2g from Greece, 4g from France, and I give it to Japan and China. Rome can beg the neoCarthagians for it, and the Aztecs already have it. I'm definitely down on this deal.
BT: Entremont builds spearman; another one is started.

-1870/48:
Spearman heads to Alesia.

-1790/50:
BT: Lugdunum finishes Walls and starts a worker; Alesia finishes a worker and starts Walls. Symmetry.

-1750/51:
Alesia's worker moves W to the BG.

-1725/52:
Entremont's worker finishes the mine and starts a road. Alesia's worker starts irrigating.
BT: Entremont finishes spearman. Another one started.

-1700/53:
I notice I hadn't MMed Entremont properly; it is now working 3 BG and a coast tile. The spearman heads to Lugdunum. The Iriquois and Aztecs have learned Philosophy. They will sell it to me, but there are no brokerages available, so I don't bother.

-1650/55:
Entremont's worker finishes the road. It moves S; the next step is to connect Alesia and Entremont together.
BT: Entremont builds a spearman and starts on a settler; Lugdunum builds a worker and starts a Temple (for culture).

-1625/56:
Entremont -> 5; tax to 8/1/1. Lugdunum's worker moves NW to the BG, and Lugdunum is MMed to work that square. The spearman heads to Alesia. The road to Alesia is started. Alesia's worker finishes the irrigation and starts a road. Oh, incidentally - yes, I know the irrigation bonus for a BG is lost under despotism; however, I need to pull it through for the wheat. Now Japan, Iriquois, and Aztecs have Mathematics and Philosophy. Once again there are no brokerages, though, so I keep with my min-science for Mathematics. If nothing else it makes it cheaper.

-1600/57:
Lugdunum worker starts mining.

-1550/59:
Alesia worker finishes road and moves to the wheat. Now Egypt has Philosophy (plus all my techs! Cleo must have used her feminine wiles). Greece has Mathematics, Philosophy, and Map Making (and they no longer lack Horseriding). Japan, Rome (!), France, Iriquois, and the Aztecs also have Mathemathics, Philosophy and Map Making. China has Mathemathics and Philosophy but lacks Map Making. neoCarthage is lacking all three. At a minimum, if I can get Map Making I ought to be able to get the other two.
Rome has the best deal; they will sell Map Making for just WM + 73g. I take it. Then I trade Map Making to China for Mathemathics + Territory Map, and then I trade Map Making to Egypt for Philosophy + Territory Map. I trade Philosophy + Map Making to neoCarthage for their World Map, then my World Map to Rome for their Territory Map + 8g; then my World Map to Japan for their TM + 22g; to France for TM + 12g; to Iriquois for TM + 8g; I swap WM with China; and then WM to Aztecs for TM + 16g. In effect, I paid 7g plus my WM for three techs (which gives me parity, incidentally). Science swapped to Construction (still on min science).
BT: Entremont builds settler. Spearman started.

-1525/60:
I send the settler down SW of the cow and 2 NE of a dye (an 8 turn journey). Alesia's worker starts irrigating. Japan, China, and Aztecs all have Code of Laws, but I'll wait for a brokerage.

I have 1 settler, 3 workers, 1 warrior, 5 spearmen. I have 3 towns, two of which have walls and the third of which has a granary and barracks. I lack Code of Laws, but otherwise have
tech parity: Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, the Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Iron Working, Mathematics, Writing, Mysticism, Philosophy, Map Making, and Horseback Riding. I do not have any luxuries or resources - yet. I would estimate that my mismanagement of Entremont and unfortunate choices of tech research have probably cost me a bit, but not that much - certainly I'm a lot better off than I was at this point in the GOTM.

The zip file has the save file. The PNG (the only format that was under the file size limit!) is a picture.

Hey Gazza, nice write-up! :goodjob:
Seems tech is going a lot faster in your world then in mine. Has something to do with the human player min- or max-science from the start, I don't know exactly how, anyone like to comment?

A Space Oddity, I am going to shorten your name to Space from now on if that's OK. BTW if you are going for the horses near Rome you'd better put a shift on otherwise you might find a leaning tower there! I wouldn't worry too much about tech rate. You don't want to reach the next era b4 you're completely ready IMO.

Hi Gazza. Again, nice writeup. Your military is far bigger than mine. Anyone could walk into any of my towns. :(

@mad-bax (or should I say Mad from now on? Just kidding, I'll answer to Space): the first time around I was beaten to the horses, but not this time! I'm not worried, just curious how the tech settings of the human player affects the actions of the AI.

Space: usually its the las half of my name that people use. It was my nickname at school. I had a tortured childhood ;)

Check your science slider on your 60 turn save. In my game it goes

Monarchy: slider 0% turns to completion --
Monarchy: Slider 10% turns to completion 30
Monarchy: slider 100% turns to completion 30

It makes no difference at all. I don't have the gems worked and I don't have a coastal city, but I have got every worked tile roaded.

If I go to republic it might make a difference, but I want monarchy for the free units. I'm going to have lots of units :mwaha:

Maybe gazza was just good at trading, or the other civs got contact earlier and traded more. I really don't know.
Maybe cracker will shed some light at the interval.....

Originally posted by mad-bax
... usually its the las half of my name that people use...


That's what I figured, so it seemed more original to take the other half... :D

Originally posted by mad-bax
Check your science slider on your 60 turn save. In my game it goes

Monarchy: slider 0% turns to completion --
Monarchy: Slider 10% turns to completion 30
Monarchy: slider 100% turns to completion 30


I know, that's what happens when you get in to the more expensive techs (soon because of the acceleration by cracker) and start slow. When you do that when you just begin to research it, you'll see it go down to 29 or 28 (or lower if you're lucky or if you build libs).

I'm a bit late here. Will start my game tonight though and submit my 60 rounds in a few hours time i guess.

----

Here is the first 61 rounds of my game(counted wrong in my excel file...)

0 4000BC-Move settler NW. Move Worker N.
1 3950BC-Found Entremont. Worker start mine. Start pottery research, slider 90%. Order warrior at Entremont.
2 3900BC-*
3 3850BC-*
4 3800BC-*
5 3750BC-*
6 3700BC-Entremont finish warrior(Wa1), order new. Wa1 NW.
7 3650BC-Wa1 NW. Worker finish mine, start road.
8 3600BC-Wa1 NW.
9 3550BC-Wa1 W.
10 3500BC-Entremont finish warrior(Wa2), order new. Worker finish road, move W. Wa1 SW. Wa2 S.
11 3450BC-Entremont grows, new citizen on fish. Slider at 100%. Wa1 W. Wa2 SW. Worker start mine.
12 3400BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 S.
13 3350BC-Entremont finish warrior(Wa3), order barracks as prebuild for granary. Wa1 W. Wa2 S. Wa3 garrison in Entremont.
14 3300BC-Wa1 W - meet Carthage workers. Trade nothing as he has too tough demands. Wa2 SE. Slider at 50%.
15 3250BC-Pottery researched, start researching mysticsm. Will aim straight for monarchy and hope that my warriors can defend my ICS cities while I get there. Slider at 100%. Tried to trade with Hannibal who lack burial, code and pottery - but he obviously must have a hunch about what I did to him in GOTM18. No trade is made. Wa1 SW. Wa2 S.
16 3200BC-Wa1 S. Wa2 S. What? Hannibal allready has pottery somehow... He will surely be the first to feel the pointy end of my swords.
17 3150BC-A greec warrior approach wa1 in the west, the sad truth after my meeting with him is that he has all my tech and I lack 4 of his. An Iroquios warrior approach wa2 from the S, Hiawatha has our techs and we could use his bronze. No trade made this round either. My plan to make a beeline for monarchy and build ICS around Entremont has to remain as I'm slowly being reduced to a backwards nation. Will try to trade some with Rome then in the East. Wa1 SW. Wa2 E. Worker finish mine, start road.
18 3100BC-Entremont grows, new citizen on 2. mined grass. Wa1 W. Wa2 E.
19 3050BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 E.
20 3000BC-Worker finish road, move N. Wa1 W. Wa2 E - spots roman border.
21 2950BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 E - contact Ceasar and trade pottery + burial for worker+10 gold. Slave join worker NW - N of Entremont. Wa2 also meets a pictish warrior directly south of him...
22 2900BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 N - the pict went E towards rome. Slave join work on mine.
23 2850BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 N.
24 2800BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 N.
25 2750BC-Wa1 NW. Wa2 NW. Entremont grows to 4, 4. citizen on grass being mined. Lux at 10%, science 90%.
26 2710BC-Entremont finish granary, order settler. Put 4. citizen on lake to time growth with settler production, 5-3-5. Wa1 NW. Wa2 NW. Slider at 80%sci/10%lux. Mine finished, Worker+slave(workgroup1(WG1)) start road.
27 2670BC-Wa1 NW. Wa2 N.
28 2630BC-Wa1 NW. Wa2 NE. WG1 NE.
29 2590BC-Wa1 W. Wa2 N. WG1 start mine.
30 2550BC-Wa1 NW. Wa2 N.
31 2510BC-preturn: Finish research mysticism. Trade Alph+bronze for myst+1g to ceasar. Trade myst for 7G and masonry from Alex. Trade nothing to Carth, he has all my techs except burial. Trade nothing to Hiawatha, he lacks alph, myst and masonry. Start researching poly at 10% science/10%lux. Trade mysticism to hiawata for 31 G. Put 4. citizen from lake to 3. mined grass. During turn: Wa1 N, Wa2 N.
32 2470BC-Entremont finish settler, order barracks. Settler move to tile NE - NE - N of Entremont. Wa1 N. Wa2 N. Citizens 1&2 on mined BG(bonushielded grass) and #3 on fish. Slider at 10%sci/0%lux.
33 2430BC-Wa1 N - meet Joan of the French. I trade pottery + burial for 11g+worker and mysticism+59G for 2 french workers. Wa2 NW. 3 french workers join WG1 2 tiles N of Entremont.
34 2390BC-Alesia Founded 2 tiles NE and 1 tile N of Entremont. Citizen on mined BG. Order Granary at Alesia. Wa1 SW. Wa2 NW. WG1 finish road, 1worker+1slave move 2 tiles W.
35 2350BC-worker+slave start road. 3 slaves join WG1 again. Wa1 SW. Wa2 NW.
36 2310BC-Entremont finish barracks, order settler. Entremont grows to 4, 4. citizen on mined BG. 3 last slaves start road. Wa1 SW. Wa2 NW. Lux at 10%. Hiawatha has iron working.
37 2270BC-Wa1 SW. Wa2 N - discover hut NE of him, decide to leave it for now.
38 2230BC-Wa1 S - meet Cleopatra of Egypt. Trade alph+1g for the wheel. Trade the wheel for 59G from Joan. WG1 finish road, move NE to cattle.
39 2190BC-Wa1 S. Wa2 N - spot volcano at the eastern landbrigde. WG1 start/finish road at cattle.
40 2150BC-Entremont grows, 5. citizen on lake. Sci10%/lux20%. Wa1 S. Wa2 NW. WG1 NW.
41 2110BC-Entremont finish settler, order warrior. Settler move to tile 3 tiles NE of Alesia. Wa1 S. Wa2 W. Citizens 1&2 on mined BG(bonushielded grass) and #3 on fish. Slider at 10%sci/0%lux. WG1 finish road 2 tiles NE of Alesia. Alex has writing.
42 2070BC-Wa1 S. Wa2 W - spot volcanoes on western landbridge. WG1 N.
43 2030BC-Entremont finish warrior(Wa4), order new warrior. Wa1 S - spot Aztec border. Wa2 W. WG1 start irrigating plains. Settler has to make a new destination 6 tiles NE of Entremont since an Iroquois warrior occupies the original destination. Wa4 joins WG1 to guard them.
44 1990BC-Lugdunum founded 6 tiles NE of Entremont, order granary there - citizen on N cattle. Entremont grows, change prod from warrior to settler. Alesia grows, 2. citizen on S cattle. Wa1 S, Wa2 W. Trade iron working for mysticism and the wheel(i think...forgot to write it down during trade). Both Alex and Hiaw has writing now and they have contact with chinese and english. Sci 10%/Lux10%.
45 1950BC-Trade contacts with aztec/romans/egypt to Iroquois for writing and contact with chinese. Trade contacts with aztec/romans/egypt to Greeks for contact with english and 33G. Trade contact with english for 34G with the chinese. Wa1 W. Wa2 W. WG1 finish irr, start and finish road. Wa4 joins up with WG1.
46 1910BC-WG1 go W to cattle. Wa1 W. Wa2 E. Trade alph for contact with japaneese and 11G from Monty of the aztecs. Trade alph for 34G from an annoyed Tokugawa of the Japanese - he's cautious after the trade. Change prod at Lugd from granary to temple.
47 1870BC-Wa1 NE. Wa2 S. WG1 start irrigation on N cattle.
48 1830BC-Entremont finish settler, order warrior. Settler move to tile 3 tiles NW of Alesia. Wa1 NE. Wa2 S. Citizens 1&2 on mined BG(bonushielded grass) and #3 on fish. Slider at 10%sci/0%lux.
49 1790BC-Wa1 N. Wa2 S. WG1 finish irr, start and finish road.
50 1750BC- Founded Camulodunum 3 tiles NE of Alesia, order barracks. Citizen on mined BG. Wa1 N. Wa2 SE. WG1 move to S cattle and start Irr. Greece, Iroquois and China has horseback.
51 1725BC-Wa1 N. Wa2 SE.
52 1700BC-Entremont finish warrior(wa5), order settler. Entremont grow to 4, 4. citizen on BG. Wa1 N. Wa2 SE. WG1 finish irr cattle SE of Lugd, move WG1 to BG S of Camu. Lugd grows, citizen on forest. Alesia finish granary, order settler. Wa4 garrisons in Alesia. Alesia grows to 3, citizen on forest.
53 1675BC-Wa1 N. Wa2 garrisons in Camu. Alesia 3. citizen from forest to mined BG where Lugd citizen was. Lugd citizen on BG.
54 1650BC-Wa1 N. WG1 start mine BG S of Camu.
55 1625BC-Lugd finish temple, start granary. Wa1 N. Vet warrior set to move from Entremont to Alesia.
56 1600BC-Entremont grows, citizens on lake+3 mined BG + fish. Lux 10%/sci 10%. WG1 finish mine, start and finish road. Camu citizen from mined BG to normal BG. Alesia citizens forest + mined BG + irr cattle. Lugd citizens on 2 irr cattle. Trade horseback for writing + contact with japs with rome. Trade horseback for 56G from Monty. Wa1 W.
57 1575BC-Entremont finish settler, order spearman - send settler 3 tiles S and 1 tile SE. Alesia finish Settler, order barracks - send settler to tile S - SW - SW of Entremont. Entr citizens on MBG+MBG+fish. Alesia citizens on MBG+MBG. Wa1 W. WG1 move to gems in mountain N of Camu. Sci 10%/lux 0%.
58 1550BC-Wa1 W. WG1 start road.
59 1525BC-Wa1 W. Vet warroir from Alesia to Lugd. Lugd grows, citizens on irr plain(IP)+2 irr cattle(IC).
60 1500BC-Camu finish barracks, order warrior - camu grows, citizens on BG+MBG. Warrior garrison in Lugd. Entr grows, citizens on Fish+3 MBG. Alesia on IC+MBG. Lugd on IC+IP+Forest. SAVE MADE. SCREEN TAKEN.

Round 61 save... (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Barbrennus_singu_1500_BC.SAV)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/barbQSturn60.jpg

Some numbers at 1500BC: 4 cities, 6 warriors, 2 settlers, 1 worker, 4 slaves, 2 granaries, 2 barrackses, 1 temple, 454G in treasury, 11 citizens,
59 shields in the bin, all contacts, techs: bronze, iron, masonry, pottery, alph, writing, wheel, warrior code, horseback, burial, myst and 1 turn to poly.

As you can see my ICS was abandoned for a quasi optimal build with focus on food and gems :)

Singularity interesting to see you expanded East first, makes your game looking different from the others. I think it'll benefit your economy, OTOH it could make you a target for the babs later on, depending on where the neoCartagians will settle. Do you use CivIII or PTW? I can only open the save-files of players who use CivIII :( .

Oh, I use PTW :( . But I will keep making fully reproducable timelines down to the tiniest citizen manipulation. Regarding the expansion. Yes, I will actually aim for a tighter build in the northeast with a FP 2 tiles E of the worker/slaves on the gems.

I forgot to mention that I of cource play this game with some knowlede on the terrain and resource location. But the positive side is that the AI is acting very differently in this game: Joan still only has her capitol after I traded all her workers to me, Aztecs, english and greece has 5 cities and Hiawatha has a whopping 7 cities, while I should have nice potential energy stored in my 3 high food cities. I aim for some hopefully interesting tactics to speed up my late game result when I approach turn 120. In my eyes early aggresion and even a goody hut pop could be disastrous in a game like this so I try to play a safe builder game until I get to monarchy and can release my swords. Another thing I noticed is the persistant AI curiousity to the volcanoes like a moth being drawn to a flame...

here I am to turn 60. Can't find the time to play as fast as needed --- sigh. Turn 90 done now, as well (see next post).

Not sure how I weigh up - guess we'll see later .

I thought I would type a short view of how I see the sitution at turn 60:

Capitol placement: Most players founded Entremont where we started. Except Smirk and me who went NW to get the benefit from the fish that will be inside our borders once Entremont grows.

First tech: More diverse routes here. Gazza and wanderer chase after Bronze, while Smirk, Styler1 and me aim for pottery, we all research at max pace, 90 or 100% science. Space_Oddity go for 100% tax and will buy her way up the ancient tech three. Mad_Bax obviously has monarchy in his sight, and will trade the exces gold from low science to get techs like pottery at a reasonable time.


Space Oddity: 2800BC build granary/2590BC first settler.
Mad_Bax: Early 2. city, found Alesia in 2950BC. Dual granary in Alesia and Entremont - share fish at lake.
Smirk: 2850BC build granary/2590 worker/2390BC first settler.
Gazza: 2950BC granary/2470 first settler.
Singularity: 2750 Granary/2470 first settler.

Interesting to see 6 quite different games. Space Oddity's seem to be an extreme in one direction, while Mad_Bax should tell us how he fares with his early settler/dual granary/monarchy rush in the next round of reports. Tech trading has been much the same, with an exception in gazza who seem to be in an amped game where tech is researched faster than ours. I'm a bit curious to how people end up in 1000BC with city spread and corruption and also how the treasuries will be prepared for the unavoidable massupgrades ahead of us.

Sorry it's late, been out the country the last few days.
It's starting to speed up a bit now, I'm about to build my third town. Somehow, I seem to be the slowest player posting here though, I'm not having the trade luck that everyone else is. I am however, learning a lot from all the descriptive posts here though.
On that note all I can add is my small contribution timeline and game save!!:crazyeye:

Click here for timeline. (http://www.tyleruk.com/Pictish%20Warrior%20Insanity%20Timeline.xls)

:o

Cant seem to attach game save it's 106k zipped and the limit is 102k so...



Turn 31 to 60 (www.tyleruk.com/Barbrennus of the Celts, 1525 BC.zip)

@singularity: that is an interesting difference, it will be good to see what the longer term effect will be. Two extra players completed and posted so I took the opportunity to find the info to add to your summary (thanks BTW):

Wanderer: settler 3000BC/ granary in 1500BC
Styler-1: granary 3100BC/ settler 2590BC

@Styler-1: it is probably better to build the granary later after Entremont growed a little in this case, like you did. Note the difference in turns between granary and settler.

I took the time to see what the result in #cities was after 60 turns (keeping sequence as before, altough I know I should not put myself first :blush: ;) ):

Space Oddity: 5, 1 settler
Mad_Bax: 6, 1 settler
Smirk: at least 4
Gazza: 3, 1 settler
Singularity: 4, 2 settlers
Wanderer: 3
Styler-1: 2, 1 settler

I'm leaving commentary to the spearheets - time tight here. Noticed the review of cities/settler at 60 turns - hmm- I've had an explosion since then!

@ Mad, and all using his spreadsheet. 4000 bc is classed as turn 0 in spreadsheet, not turn 1. That's why Cracker refers to 1525 bc save as 60, and NOT 1500 bc, as I had it.

@cracker - Just realized this now hope the fact that mine are out by 1 is OK - at least my 120 turn should be right now.

@ styler - use UPLOAD FILE function at bottom of web page - cn handle up to 3 MB.

ALL - well, reached 120. Will avoid giving details, but I have screenshots of world, minimap and army, and powergraph, as well as relatively complete "mad" timesheet. Looking forward to seeing ya' all then (tomorrow)!

Singularity and Space:

Thanks for the comparisons, it puts things into perspective nicely. I think that Singularities move of settling between the cattle to the east is a really strong move. I thought quite hard about how to exploit that myself, but didn't think of irrigating from the river to the cattle. Without the irrigation the city would not be nearly as good.

Yes, sharing the fish would be a good idea in my game. Unfortunately you mistook me for someone who was clever enough to think of it. :wallbash:. I will have to play from turn 30 again now to see if it makes a difference. I reckon I could have given 3 food every 7th turn to Entremont and produced 1 extra settler. I'm still not good enough to take advantage of micromanagement, but it will come one day.

Has anyone been to the Barb peninsula yet? In my game there is a sneaky difference to GOTM which could be due to the RNG, but might otherwise be due to external human intervention.....:

I got distracted from the barbs, when I post my next turns you'll see why. What should be the next cut-off point? turn 80 (=1000BC) or turn 90 (=60+30)?

I'm going to post a full timeline to 1000BC, and a description up to turn 90 with a picture. Cracker wants the 1000BC timeline for comparison with the official QSC. I will also post saves from both. Can't do it till the kids are in bed tonight tho'.

Ok, here are my turns upto the QSC limit:


1500BC (61) - Our first vet archer is built in Lugdunum, it starts a settler now. Entremont completes the warrior starts settler. The horsies are in sight. We will settle on top of it!

1475BC (62) - Our settler pair is on the horses now. Established embassies in Rome and Athens. The Greek are building 2 wonders.

1450BC (63) - Verularium built on the horses, starts worker (for our road).

1425BC (64) - Okay, so the AI have met each other and now most have Lit, Map Making and Code of Laws. I buy Map Making from neoCarthago for WM and 60 gold. I could buy Code of Laws @3rd or Lit., but its too expensive and I dont want to reach the new age too soon. Nobody has Math yet, so its ok for the time being. Sell TM for 4 gold to Egypt. The others are broke.

1400BC (65) - Alesia builds vet Archer. Starts settler. Switched L. to spear to finish next turn, no shields lost. Archers move to our newest city (near Rome :)).

1375BC (66) - France will sell us Literature for WM and 29g straight, we make the deal.

1350BC (67) - E. builds settler, starts warrior. Worker completed in iron city, starts road.

1325BC (68) - Greece has Philisophy now, next turn most others will have it too. Our Math. will be ready in 8, I think we'll beat Greece to it!

1275BC (69) - Gergovia founded, starts granary.

1250BC (70) - We are making a nice 11gpt.

1225BC (71) - We are making 12gpt.

1200BC (72) - E. completes spear, starts settler. Verularium completes worker starts barracks. Lugdunum completes settler, starts spear.

1175BC (73) - Our settler pair moves on the hill next to the wheat (W). Cam. builds settler that will settle near the gems. Math in 2 turn at (9.1.0). We cross our fingers (Greece still hasn't got it).

1150BC (74) - LLeorycantores founded, starts barracks. Damn, the others have Math now! Well, never mind, we are last in the histograph no more :).

1125BC (75) - Math. is in, poly started. Sell Math. to France for Philosophy, TM and 15g. Buy Code of Laws for WM and 89g from neoCarthago. Brempovia founded, starts barracks, chop forest to speed things up. We spot Roman settler guarded by a warrior. Its a pity our stength is not big enough yet.

1100BC (76) - Syrplebonum founded, on the hill next to the gems, starts worker. We have now 10 cities, and a settler ready next turn.

1075BC (77) - Iron online, E. builds settler, starts spear. Settler will move to the river.

1050BC (78) - Cam builds our last warrior, starts settler. Rome founds Pompeii next to mountains, pity the vulcano is not next to it :)! Micro manage to help build temple and granary within reasonable time.

1025BC (79) - Nearing QSC cutoff, I'm curious how this game compares.

1000BC (80) - Augustodurum founded on hills near the river. L. finishes spear, starts European Sword. Brokering opportunity: Greece and England have Polytheism, I can buy it and sell it for gold and maps! Will do! They both ask WM, 5gpt and 95gold. Greece is by far the weakest and will share our frontline with the barbs, they will receive my money.
neoCartago: 60 gold and TM
France: 18 gold and TM
China: 47 gold and TM
Aztecs: 59 gold and TM
Egypt has nothing to offer, Japan only 13g and TM so I'll leave them in the dark, Rome has nothing and will receive nothing either.
So now we have 206g and still making 12gpt.

A pciture of our lands (note the Horseman build in the Eastern most city)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_redux18_1000BC.JPG

save 1000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_redux18_v1_29_barbs_1000BC.zip)

And the next 10 turns, where things start to heat up:

975BC (81) - Our army is stonger or average compared to the AIs now. Establish embassy with NeoCart. (Pyramids in 80+ turns) and Iroquois (Great Lib in 70ish turns).

950BC (82) - E, builds spear, send its defending Warrior to a Barrack-city to upgrade. E. starts settler.

925BC (83) - What is that Roman archer doing on our grounds, I ask him to leave, he says 'sorry, no offense, we'll move', I doubt if he will...

900BC (84) - Roman archer *fortifies* on our hill, it is not even hurt! Aha, he's up to no good. I upgrade a warrior to our first European Sword, go Celts! Ll. builds worker, starts Temple.

875BC (85) - Forest cleared our first temple now ready in 2 turns. Worker moves to mine BG near Alesia. That's funny I can decide to start war with Rome by telling its archer to leave :), what is more, it has to get off the hill first before it can attack!

850BC (86) - Rome now has two units on our land, they're up to no good. I upgrade another warrior and will ask Rome to leave (they will attack anyway). Surprise, they don't want to leave and declare war :). Our Swordsman attacks the archer and wins, which of course starts our Golden Age! It is a vet now. Our warrior attacks Roman warrior, wins and upgrades.

825BC (87) - Our diplomats forge a military alliance with Iroq against the Roman for our WM and 7 gold. This will help us in two ways, the Roman effort will have to split between us and the Iroq OTOH the Iroqs will be slowed down. E. completes settler, starts European sword.

800BC (88) - The Aztec complete the Oracle.

775BC (89) - Ver. completes Horseman, starts Barracks. Agendincum founded, starts Barracks.

750BC (90) - A Roman warrior moves on the iron. Our Eur. sword tries to kill him but fails!

to be continued...

Sorry if my spreadsheet is one turn out. I'll correct it for GOTM19.

Here is what I did up till 1000BC. It's a bit boring I'm afraid.

1425BC. Trade Iroquois Mathematics for contact with Rome and 62G. How they don't have contact with Rome by now beats me.

1350BC. Found Georgovia.

1300BC. Found Lleocantores. Buy Philosophy from Iroquois for 92G. Must be my birthday.

1275BC. Aztechs demand 24G. I'm really tempted to refuse and allow a war, but I'm still a few turns from being ready. I give in.

1250BC. Get Map making from Rome for Poly + 22G. Then I trade maps with everyone selling my world map for territory map + gold.
Generally this is probably not a good idea, but I wanted to impress everyone with how much of the world I know at 1000BC.
Why doesn't this make up part of the QSC score?

1125BC. Found Brempovia. Trade code of laws with the good ol' Iroquois for WM and 138G.

1100BC. Found Syrplebonum near (roman) horses. Unfortunately 1 turn too late. So I start a temple. Those horses will know on which side their bread is buttered.

1075BC. Found Augustodurum.


This could go on for ever. Build settler, found city build worker etc. I have to make something happen soon. I have 11 cities with two settlers in transit. This is probably a bit better than I expected to do. I have 12 warriors which I will upgrade to UU. I needed a baracks for that, so I built one. I took a peek at the Barb peninsula too a few turns after the timeline ends. The volcanos were gone and the fog had a path through it. The french, carthags, iroqouis and Aztech all had units in there, and I watched them all die horribly. This is a lot earlier than in my proper GOTM. Now I just want to find a way of playing the pied piper and leading them to Gay Paris. (Silent S).

As I said earlier, I'll play the last couple of turns and post about the next 10 turns tonight.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/turn80.jpg

:Here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/madbax-BC1000.sav) is my savegame

I lost track of worker numbers a couple of turns from the end, but this timeline is still reasonable

This could go on for ever. Build settler, found city build worker etc. I have to make something happen soon.

Yeah, I'm almost glad the Romans did something different then last time, I guess I left my cities too weak, or Ceasar just hated me for getting to the Horses first :).

This will be a nice comparison to my 1000BC save in the normal QSC Celt game:

61.1475BC-Finish researching polyteism, start researching monarchy at 10%sci/0%lux, Entremont produce spearman, order settler(5-3-5). Spearman sent to gems. WG1 complete road to gems, move to tile S of Entremont. Found Richborough SW - SW - S of Entremont, order temple - citizen on BG. Warrior in Camu sent to Richborough. Wa1 NW.
62.1450BC-Alesia finish barracks, order settler(4-2-4) - Alesia grows, 3. citizen on forest. Fortify spear on gems. Wa1 W.
63.1425BC-Found Verulamium 4 tiles SE of Richborough, order worker there - citizen on fish. WG1 start mine S of Entremont. Wa1 W.
64.1400BC-Camu finish warrior, order new - send warrior to Verulamium. Trade map making from greece for poly. Trade code of law from Iroquois for poly. Trade map from most civs for mapmaking, have a rather complete uncowered world map now.
65.1375BC-Entremont finish settler, order warrior - send settler to plains 8 tiles SW of Richmound where there is dye&iron close to greece capitol. WG1 finish mine, start and finish road S of Entremont. Whip granary at Lugd. Warrior fortify in Richborough. Trade maps from Iroquios and Greece for our maps. Send warrior from Alesia to Entremont, warrior from Entremont to Richborough. Minimap screen taken. Entremont on fish+2MBG. Alesia on IC+2MBG. Camu on 2MBG.
66.1350BC-Lugd finish granary, order settler. Warrior headed for Entremont rerouted to Verul. Wa1 set to automove to Camu. Regular warrior from Richb escort settler headed for dye. WG1 go W.
67.1325BC-Alesia finish settler, order warrior - send settler to grass 3 tiles N of Alesia. Entremont finish warrior, order new - warrior fortify in Entremont. Camu finish warrior, order new - send him to grass 3 tiles N of Alesia. WG1 start mine N of Richb.
68.1300BC-*(not a single action - check for slaves and trades as I do every round - Iroquois have Philosophy).
69.1275BC-Entremont finish warrior, order settler - send warrior to Alesia. WG1 finish mine N of Richb, start and finish road.
70.1250BC-Gergovia founded 3 tiles N of Alesia - order temple there. Camu finish warrior, order new - send warrior to Alesia. Alesia finish warrior, order new - send warrior to Verulamium. Both warriors sent to Verulamium has arrived there. WG1 S - W.
71.1225BC-I'm doing too many citizens move now to monitor, emphasize is on timing growth with settler production and maximizing citizens on worked tiles. Change prod at Alesium from warrior to settler(4-2-4). WG1 start mine W of Richb.
72.1200BC-Entremont finish settler, order warrior - send settler to hills 7 tiles SW of Entremont. Lugd finish settler, order new - send settler to grass 3 tiles SW of Alesia. Camu finish warrior order settler(4-2-4) - send warrior to grass 3 tiles SW of Alesia. Richb finish temple, order barracks. Verul finish worker order new, worker move to grass 2 tiles SW of Alesia. WG1 finish mine W of Rushb, finish road.
73.1175BC-Warrior from Rich escort settler headin SW. WG1 W.
74.1150BC-WG1 start and finish road 2 tiles W of Richb, move W.
75.1125BC-Lleorycantores founded 3 tiles SE of Alesia, order temple. Brempovia founded next to dye and iron 8 tiles SW of Richb, order temple. Alesia finish settler, order warrior - move settler to grass 4 tiles SE of Entremont.
76.1100BC-Settler arrival in SW delayed one turn as a roman warrior occupies the tile we want to build our city on. We're being overtaken in science - but hopefully we'll research monarchy first so that we can trade to tech parity. WG1 SW.
77.1075BC-Wa1 finally return to Camu from his great journey in the west, he garrison there. Worker start road SE-SE-E of entremont. WG1 start and finish road NE of future city in the SW of Richb.
78.1050BC-SyrPlebonium founded on hill W-W-S-S of Richb - order temple. WG1 SW - S. Alesia produce warrior, order new. Richb produce barracks, order warrior.
79.1025BC-Augustodorum founded 4 tiles SE of Entremont. WG1 start and finish road S of Syrplebonium.
80.1000BC-Entremont finish settler, order warriror - send settler to grass 5 tiles NW of Richb. Camu finish settler, order warrior - send settler to grass 5 tiles NW of Entr. Lugd finish settler, order new settler - send settler to forest 3 tiles SE of Lleorycantores. Worker finish road N of Augusteodorum, move N.WG1 SW. Send warriors from Entr and Camu to NW settler pairs destinations. Send warrior from Alesia to escort eastbound settler.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Bbrsingu1000.jpg

Treasury is 734G and I'm making 14GTP. And I have 4 slaves.

Compared to my GOTMQSC I had 9 cities, 1 settler, 4 workers, 4 slaves and 15 warriors. 615 gold in the bin and 11GPT.

So slightly better in my second run, but not much.

Hey all,

Well - we can post further now!

Turn 120: I have 15 cities, IW and am building the Gallic Warrior army.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/wanderer_barb_insan_gotm_18_redux_-_world_at_turn_120.JPG

At this point in time I had 47 out of 60 "free" units.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/wanderer_barb_insan_gotm_18_redux_-_Army_at_120.JPG

The powergraph rates me 7th from 11.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/wanderer_barb_insan_gotm_18_redux_-_power_graph_at_120.JPG



I can say that the future war against rome was a success, the gallic warrior army got up to size 40 or so at best, and that nearing 1000 and I have 30 cities(3 more than Egypt) in a tight build config (imho), am rated 4rd on score, and am beginning to look at eating into the IRO, to form a cruching attack on greece from 3 sides. Having 30 cities, I expect to churn out the units fast enough to try a blitz. I am a few tech behind, and am not certain if I'll wait too long to go after IRO ( a failing I have, I suspect). Still given that I haven't achieved too many wins on Monarch difficulty, I'm happy to try this plan, and see.

Really looking forward ot the review of the play to 1000 bc, and turn 90 and 120. i hope to learn lots from the better players - I can only regularly win at regent, (apart from one ridiculously good run in gotm 16, where I ended 2nd on powergraph - space race loss, but oh so close!) so I'm KEEN to get feedback from everyone here.

Wanderer: It's a little late for me to look hard at your timeline now, It's past midnight here. I'll have a look at work tomorrow when I have more time ;). However, any comments I make come with a public health warning.

I see you've added some columns to the spreadsheet - Nice!
Personally I can't wait for an automatic logger. Filling in the sheet is a Royal pain in the bum. :)

Originally posted by mad-bax
Wanderer: It's a little late for me to look hard at your timeline now, It's past midnight here. I'll have a look at work tomorrow when I have more time ;). However, any comments I make come with a public health warning.

I see you've added some columns to the spreadsheet - Nice!
Personally I can't wait for an automatic logger. Filling in the sheet is a Royal pain in the bum. :)

Would LOVE an automatic logger!! As to late - I'm guessing your in the UK ? I'm in Cape Town, south africa - it's 1:45 AM here, and I'm just crawling along at the end of a 56 K modem!!!

sigh

here is my save game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/120_turns-_170_bc.zip

I did it again, I managed to foul up the number of rounds and made my save in 150BC.... But my timeline is intact, so it should show just about where I was one turn earlier.

Noteable achievments in my game:

Great leader + pyramids + third lux resource when I captured Carthage in 190BC. 170BC I rushed FP NE of my capitol

The barbs where a bit slow getting down to my fortified towns in the chokes in the north, but this screen shows the situation immediately after 150BC.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/barbbrensingu170bc.jpg

Here is a zip of my complete timeline in XLS format and turn 121 save @ 150BC, I used PTW1.14f: BarbBrennusSingu150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/BarbBrennusSingu1.zip)

Here is a copy from my final notes in my timeline:
I have 25 GS, 2 spears and 1 galley. I have 1 settler, 22 workers and 8 slaves. 26 cities with 86 citizens and a territory of 303 tiles. I have 3 luxuries and 141G in the treasury with a GPT of 163. I have 2 turns to feudalism is researched and have 404 shields in the bin. I have no middleage techs, and lack republic in ancient age(this is my problem, I stop visiting the trade screens as I play for a while - and suddenly everybody has traded well past my advantage after polyteism). All in all I'm happy with this opening, it's not particulary stronger than my GOTM opening on this map, but I feel I can finish this game quicker since I waited a bit longer with my GA and has a more powerful build around my core cities. Things I regret is as usual too few workers, it's really hard to keep expanding and supplying enough workers to make the new cities productive as soon as possible...

Just take away two cities and 100 shields or so, and you have my situation in 170BC.

Here is a zoomin of my NE borders in 190BC as the GS barbs started flowing down the choked land. I don't know how successfull my solution to the barb problem is as I havent played past 150BC, but reinforcements where streaming towards my two towns, and I will have pikes in two turns. I put a galley out to observe the barb movement patterns, and it seemed like they where hesitant to approach my towns. Some of them where retreating, while others came downwards.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/pinctfrontier150BC.jpg

All I did in the following 10 turns was switch from settlers, workers and warriors to spears, UUs and barracks.

I decided in the end that I am going to pick a fight, probably against Greece and Rome simultaneously just to see what will happen. I just need to upgrade my warriors. I have just traded monarchy with Rome, so they will be in anarchy as I start my GA. The Greeks I'll worry about when I test their strength. I don't think I'm really ready for a war, but I want to see if I really need as many units as I usually build or not. The road to Gems will be finished in 2 so I can let the cities get a bit bigger and leave them lightly defended probably with a couple of quick GS's dotted around the place to intercept counter attacks. I expect to get murdered. :)



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/turn90a.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/turn90b.jpg

My saved game is here. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/madbax-BC750.sav)

cracker- Thanks, I get it now. BTW this was a bit delayed I was out of town this weekend.

Here is the first segment.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Smirk_QSC18R2_1525BC.zip



Here is the continuation of my exact timeline, which I ended at 1000BC.



1500 BC
Fort Entremont (2) finished settler now buiding archer
settler heads north east
worker to follow
1450 BC
Fort Lugdunum (1) finished settler now buiding archer
settler heads north
1425 BC
Fort Alesia (2) finished settler now buiding archer
1400 BC
Fort Entremont (3) finished archer now building settler
archer heads south
founded Fort Richborough building barracks
worker to irrigate cow
1375 BC
contacted by Joan and Toku
1350 BC
founded Fort Verulamium building worker
founded Fort Gergovia building worker
1300 BC
Fort Camulodunum (3) finished archer now buiding settler
1275 BC
Fort Entremont (2) finished settler now building archer
settler moves south
1250 BC
archer kills Carthage archer now 5/5
Hannibal gives me Mysticism and Masonry for peace
Fort Alesia (3) finished archer now building settler
Fort Alesia archer kills Greek warrior now 3/5, declaring war, they were in my territory
1225 BC
Fort Alesia archer kills Greek warrior that attacked now 2/5
archer kills Greek hoplite at Corinth now 2/5
archer dies attacking Greek hoplite, GA for Greece
figured only one hoplite, but there were at least two
1200 BC
Corinth is size 3 so I am going to try and take it intact so settler will walk around and settle iron
archer moves north to rest
archer fortifies
settler south and archer north to defend settler
Fort Lugdunum (2) finished archer now building archer
archer heads south to help take Corinth
two elite archers heads south to help take Corinth
1175 BC
Fort Entremont finished archer now building archer
Corinth (2) Alex rushed another hoplite, two there now, going to wait for more archers
1150 BC
Fort Richborough finished barracks now building settler
1125 BC
Corinth (1) looks like he rushed again, will wait another turn have 3 elites in transit so will get a leader with luck
with 4 archers I would normally attack, but I have a settler here waiting and don't want to lose it
1100 BC
archer 4/4 attacked by Greek archer now 2/5, must have rushed that archer
Fort Gergovia (1) finished worker now building worker
Fort Entremont finished archer now building settler
archer to defend Fort Verulamium
Fort Verulamium (1) finished worker now building worker
archer kills hoplite now 2/5
archer attacks and die last hoplite now 2/3
archer kills hoplite now 4/5, Corinth destroyed
Alex gives me Alphabet, Wheel, Polythesim and 25g for peace, he was also willing to give me Sparta instead of the techs but I didn't have any location on it so passed. Now in hindsight I should have taken the city, Sparta is where I placed my FP in the last game. Since it was his second city I expected it to be still in forests.
1075 BC
Mao asks for something I refuse he declares war
1050 BC
founded Fort Leorycantores building worker
Fort Alesia (1) finished settler now building archer
settler heads west to get wheat
Fort Camulodunum (2) finished settler now building archer
settler heads west to get fish or iron
7.1.2 Monarchy (30)
1025 BC
Fort Entremont (4)
1000 BC
Fort Entremont (2) finished settler now building spearman
settler heads east


Despite the major problems and different approach this game is not far off of my original. In the original I had 11 cities and 1 settler, in this one I have 8-9 cities and 3 settlers. This is no doubt also because I built a little more spaced out this time so naturally the game will be delayed by a few turns here or there.

I stopped keeping an exact timeline at 1000BC I'm still doing it by hand and its really tediuos with a lot of units.


These were some general thoughts I wrote since 1000BC...

1000 BC
The faster tech pace made any warrior/swordman conquest difficult. That is at least without iron anywhere near the start. I am just settling near iron in a few turns. I decided to take a different approach and one that I usually do not. The extremely early granary seems to have a good effect although I have less cities than I did last game. I have more troops and workers though, and 3 settlers in transit. And archers, seem pretty worthless in general, final upgrade in next age, and the middle age upgrade requires 3 techs, the only plus is that none of them are deadends. Made more useless since two neighbors have effective pikeman with Bronze.
Interesting in that this map doesn't have any particular resource near the capital, horses included. It turns out that I don't even have any horses so archers are the only thing around for some time.

If I were able to take Corinth I would be in a better position, I just hope when it got razed that Alex got the discontent associated with his rushing, the bastard. I have a total of 4-5 elite archers and a leader would have really helped, but with hoplites and mercenarys making a wall to the west there isn't much chance there. I'm not in a good position to attack Caesar anytime soon, but will shortly. Unless a leader comes soon this game will turn out really poor, Japan has been building the Pyramids for some time and if he gets them, they will be out of reach for an extremely long time. Although at this point, the Library looks like a good choice instead since I am so far behind in tech.
I am in the middle on the score, out of the 8 civs that I currently have contact with. I'm missing England and Egypt.
The small area that I have uncovered on the map is humorous, my nearby territory, Greece and some of Rome and Carthage. I'll be doing some more exploring now that I have enough archers to defend my territory.
No luxuries as yet but I will have gems hooked up in the time it takes to road the mountain.

775 BC

During this portion my growth was slow and hence I couldn't really abuse the other civs at all. My tech is way behind. And a few civs have declared war on me (again or still), China among them. However, due to their distance I didn't actually see any of their units until ~550BC. Unless I am in danger I usually maintain wars until I have something to gain. Once I started to catch up around 700BC I started to regain equality with the other civs in maps, tech and contacts. I got most of the techs completely free by renogiating peace. The iroquois took an early lead in score and have held it and will hold it for some time, I am currently #3 in score below the japanese but with a larger per turn gain so will catch them shortly.

590 BC
barbarian uprising
sending a few units north to "activate" them if needed and to check it out

For the last few hundred years there have been no pressing wars and I have begun to build a defense force. The archer have been completely worthless, linked with my slow tech pace I won't be able to quickly upgrade them either. I have been researching monarcy at minimum and will get it in 8 turns. I will then consider speeding up research to get the longbows and then maybe do some conquest.

So it looks like Singularity is going for the "Keep the cork in the bottle" strategy of keeping the barbs corked up in the ghetto by building fortress cities at the choke points.

I also looks like the upraising dates are falling in the 600bc to 100bc range. Does anyone have a general summary of where in time the uprisings are falling for everyone and also what the genral approach to preparing for the uprisings may be??

Is anyone trying to set up conditions to harvest the barbs for massive numbers fo elite promotions??

Did anyone use shuttle galleys to bypass the snaky peninsula??

Did anyone found a city on the chokepoint and give it away to an enemy to use as a permanent barbarian cork, while you used your units to go an kill the enemy instead of defending the city??

What impact does lots of barbarian activity in specific locations have on the behavior of the Rival Civilizations in the game??

How can you get the most value out of barbarians even if they are stronger than you may want to deal with.

Do barbarians ever come from ships??

Do barbarians in PTW have more of a "purpose" or mission than in Civ3v1.29 or do you think they may have more of a random component??

How many people saw any early Pictish Warrior barbs at any locations on the map before the GallicSword Barbs began to appear?

GallicSword barbs may begin to appear in 1's and 2's before the Era uprising; did anyone see this and if so when??

Cracker: in order to *start* to answer your questions I'll post my next turns (90-120, uprising in turn 96, barb action from turn 111) (I'll answer your questions in more detail later):

725BC (91) - The hurt Roman warrior attacks our city and wins! Drat, and double drat.

710BC (92) - Another Roman warrior comes in our terr. warrior attacks and fails, Sword attacks and wins, phew! Alesia riots :(.

690BC (93) - Our troops destroy Pompeii, and will move to liberate our city.

670BC (94) - Eur. Sword kills Roman archer. Aztec have Republic, we are able to buy it thanks to our GA, but I decline, we don't need it.

650BC (95) - Our Horseman is Elite after killing another Roman archer.

630BC (96) - Gems are online! Word of a massive barbarian uprising spreads! We set things up to reclaim our iron city next turn.

610BC (97) - Our northern cities start walls. Our reg horse attacks gets two hitpoint down of the defending Roman warrior and retreats. Our elite horse attacks, is redlined but wins! (No GL, that would be to much to hope for, but then again you never know). One reg. Eur. sword moves in to defend our town. Vet sword attacks Roman archer and wins. Vet archer follows Roman settler pair. Our Iron is back online. The towns with Barracks switched from horsemen to swords. E. switched to Barracks.

590BC (98) - Everybody has Currency, Construction and Republic. We buy Currency from France for WM and 164. Construction will be researched on our own soon. Republic we don't need. Sell Currency to Egypt for 12 gold (all they have) and TM.

570BC (99) - Nobody wants to sell WM this game, apparantly the AI 'know' how much of the map you have revealed.

550BC (100) - Iroq. warrior softens up the Roman archer for us. Our vet sowrd kills it and is elite now! Establish embassy in Paris with Pyramids due in 30 turns.

530BC (101) - Catapult ready, will move North. E. completes spear, starts settler.

510BC (102) - Our troops move to flood Cumae, it is still very small (size 1) which is a pity, I would like to capture it rather than raze. Lugdunum completes sword, starts marketplace.

490BC (103) - Iroqs raze Pompeii, 5 turns to go in the alliance.

470BC (104) - Iroqs sign peace treaty! Rome will give up their WM and Pisae for peace. Hmm, I have to think about it. Hmm, ok.

450BC (105) - Construction is due in 5 turns on (9.1.0). Start pre-build for Great Wall (yes!), start Walls in Alesia. A settler pair is on its way to the spot where Pompeii was. Another settler will be ready in 2, the next in three turns. We finally see the action in the North. One Vulcano is still fuming. Walls are ordered in Cam. too.

430BC (106) - Switch builds to Swords all over the place.

410BC (107) - Our Golden Age is over. A settler is build in the North, it will move to the second source of Iron.

390BC (108) - The settler that moves up North gets some compony to protect it.

370BC (109) - More units are build ans are moving up North.

350BC (110) - Construction is researched, switch pre-build to Great Wall. Start Feudalism. Buy Monarchy from France for 333g straight. Burdigala is founded on the spot where Pompeii used to be. Settler to prime spot near the river next to the cows, but, hey, Jean tell your warrior to move over, he's in the way! We will have to wait a turn :(.

330BC (111) - Ok, we start to see some action up North. Cataractonium founded. It has a spear, a catapult and a sword defending it. Starts walls.

310BC (112) - Lapardum founded on the river/sea, next to the cows. Our vet horseman kills a barb, our reg sword the next. We will see the AI units marching through our lands trying to get to the barbs. I need to uncork the other vulcano. The Iroqs are starting to get behind. They lack monarchy but will resarch it soon they only offer TM and 6 gold for it. Our army is strong compared to everybody!

290BC (113) - The Iroqs beat us to the Great Wall :(. The neoCartagians complete the Pyramids. Our sword loses to a barb. Get Republic for Monarchy, WM and 44g from the Iroquois. I don't switch govs because I want to concentrate on the barbs from now on, no time for revolts. ;)

270BC (114) - Aha, the barb movement is impressive! I will not put the cork in yet.

250BC (115) - Building as much swords as possible, ordering them North.

230BC (116) - Vet Horseman defeats pictish warrior taking one hp. Fortifies on mountain.

210BC (117) - Horseman gets Elite before falling to three barbs.

190BC (118) - Buy Feudalism for 10gpt, 170 and WM from France, to switch to Sun Tzu and upgrade to pikes.

170BC (119) - Ratae Coritanorum founded. Our Eur sword defeats two pictish warriors.

150BC (120) - Our Eur sword takes out two new barbs, as long as they come in pairs we're ok.

Cut-off point:
We got strong military wise in the end, still no clue whether that's enough. The down side to fighting barbs is: no Great Leaders (= no FP yet). We have a nice set of cities and are still expanding. While not concentrating of researched managed to get not too far behind, we even still got a chance on Sun Tzu's. Normally I would switch govs but 'cos these are the interesting turns I stayed Despot. It is not too bad, Rome would most certainly fall if we turned that way.

@CRACKER : Wow ... I learning things just from your questions !!I didn't even think about 95% off the things you've asked, altho they sure make sense.

Sad to say, I didn't keep track of what happened when, in terms of barb activity, other than as mentioned in my notes for the timelines. Let's see: a warrior "popped" pictish warriors from a hut in 1990 bc; 875 bc, noticed a few pictish warriors come=ing south from mountain area's - these were smart enough to bypass spear on hills, well-defended cities (btw, I'm playing PTW 1.14f).

Other than than ... I saw a lot of barb activity on land-mass seperated by "mountain-snake" so I left that alone. The greeks built a city 2N, 1 NE the IRON in the north. That city was absolutely massaracred by barbarians- I think I saw upto 4 or 5 sack the city in a turn - that must have abolutely laid waste to the greek treasury.

For my part, based on seeing "smart avoidance" by pictish warriors, I basically built city, walled, and kept on that. As soon as they had an "open" city from the greeks, I barely saw any of them , they all just abused the poor greeks.

I DO think that the PTW barb's are more intelligent, altho I'm very new to PTW.

Originally posted by cracker
So it looks like Singularity is going for the "Keep the cork in the bottle" strategy of keeping the barbs corked up in the ghetto by building fortress cities at the choke points.

Yeah, I did that because I didn't know what timeframe I had from Greece and I entered middleage untill the uprising reached our borders. It was an insurance to secure my northeasterly expansionpattern.

I also looks like the upraising dates are falling in the 600bc to 100bc range. Does anyone have a general summary of where in time the uprisings are falling for everyone and also what the genral approach to preparing for the uprisings may be??

I finished researching monarchy in 730bc, and guessed correctly when I found that all techs could then be traded to get to next era. I wanted Greece with me as a tech partner, so I also knew the barbcamps would explode around that date. I saw the first sign of picts and a lone gallic swordman in 390bc on the other side of the bay of my naval construction town Laupardum. In other words it took the barbarians allmost 350 years to get from the camps in the NE to the peninsula between us and them.


Is anyone trying to set up conditions to harvest the

barbs for massive numbers fo elite promotions??
I am, I built strategic towns to shuttle them to the two peninsulas in the NE. I also recooned that some of my fortified GS would be promoted from my garrison towns in the north.

Did anyone use shuttle galleys to bypass the snaky peninsula??

I had a plan to do this, and produced my first galley around 350BC. It was allmost sunk immediatly though by a squid, and I would never be able to get enough troops across in one turn to withstand the onslaught of the next turn. My next plan was to use my easternmost town north of rome to shuttle a settler and 5 pikemens to the hill on the other side. Once there I would found a town to increase shuttlespeed by unloading them faster. And my next move would be to wipe them completely out to harvest the gold and get as many elite knights as possible.

Did anyone found a city on the chokepoint and give it away to an enemy to use as a permanent barbarian cork, while you used your units to go an kill the enemy instead of defending the city??

Hehe, clever thinking. No, I never thought about that. If I had gifted my town early enough to Carthage I would certainly have had an easy time invading as his economy would be completely ruined and much of his units would be en route to the garrison town. Brillliant plan cracker :D :goodjob:

What impact does lots of barbarian activity in specific locations have on the behavior of the Rival Civilizations in the game??

They where certainly drawn to the region, and where trespassing from a very early date. One of the volcano corks where removed, but the last one remained untill removed it with my veteran GS who subsecuentially got promoted to Elite and gave me a leader in my 2. or 3. elite victory :)

How can you get the most value out of barbarians even if they are stronger than you may want to deal with.


The plan of yours about gifting an exposed town close to them to your future enemy is a very good one. Besides that there isn't much I can think of in ways of capitalizing on it before I have troops who can beat them use that as an elite factory.

Do barbarians ever come from ships??


Nope. There where swarms of barb galleis, but somehow the AI cant use them to ferry the barbarians across... If it did this I would be knee deep in it quite early:)

Do barbarians in PTW have more of a "purpose" or mission than in Civ3v1.29 or do you think they may have more of a random component??

Yes, It's a bit hard to describe it in few words, but 'opportunistic' is a good term. They seem to shy away from tough battles where the RNG is against them. They also are quick to take advantage of undefended workers and pillaging your unpotected city tiles. As the barbs where approaching my city in the NE choke they split in half before the last turn. Some went back north, while others approached me without sacrificing single units on my city. I think it maybe needs either superieor RNG in man to man combat, or superior numbers to just swamp stronger forces who are outnumbered by a good margine. I met a pict quite early who should normally have attacked my warrior on a hill, but instead it went towards the roman roads and workers labouring there.

How many people saw any early Pictish Warrior barbs at any locations on the map before the GallicSword Barbs began to appear?

I just saw the odd pict that was the result of AI civs popping huts in my vicinity. I never popped a hut myself because I deliberatly didnt produce spearmen in the early game. My first sighting of a GS was at 390bc when I saw it on the closest peninsula, at that time there where far more picts there - but there where only GS coming down the last piece of land towards my bordertowns.

GallicSword barbs may begin to appear in 1's and 2's before the Era uprising; did anyone see this and if so when??

Nope.

I took a better screen of my endturn where you can see my build for a coastal invasion of the pictish peninsulas, and also the very long trek the AI barbs had to make to get to our lands.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/pictfrontier.jpg

Is it too late to join in?
I've been busy the last couple of days so I haven't been too dilligent to check to see when this game started.
I haven't read anyone's posts except for crackers first post but you'll just have to take my word for it.
If it's going to create a fuss then I'll wait for the next QSC barb rush.

Sir Eric: Just get stuck in. You can catch up no probs. I wouldn't worry about reading this thread if I were you. As far as I am concerned it's fine.

Have fun!

Dragging my heals a bit because the roof has fallen in at work. Sorry.

I haven't kept a timeline as I just wanted to catch up. Basically, 2 turns into this section I declared war on Rome. Reduced them to 2 cities in around ten turns whilst enjoyin my GA. I then gave them peace for one of their towns, a couple of workers, all their gold and Republic. :). I then turned my attention to Greece. I just couldn't get enough units there in time to war with them simultaneously. Anyway, I am into about the fourth turn of that war, and have taken about half their cities, including Athens and the GREAT WALL. This (for those that have read my posts) is part of my plan for the Barbs.

I have had no great leaders yet, because most of my units were regulars. But I have around 7 or 8 elite UU's now so I guess they will come.

The uprising hasn't happened yet, but my units are gradually working north, and I am keeping the option open to rush walls in the northern cities.

I guess my next post will be the interesting bit.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Turn120.jpg


My savegame is here. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/madbax-BC170.sav)

Ok, time for some more detailed answers:

Is anyone trying to set up conditions to harvest the barbs for massive numbers fo elite promotions??

That was more or less the plan, altough in practice that turned around into and my troops were trained by the Romans first. As I said in my earlier post it is the wrong way 'round 'cos of not getting leaders.

Did anyone use shuttle galleys to bypass the snaky peninsula??

I did that in the proper game, I had a city on the river and a shuttle moving from town to town to avoid the squids. After a while the english, who had a city amidst the barb settlements took care of the squids for me.

Do barbarians ever come from ships??

No, I have never seen barbs arrive in ships. That's way the cork works. In my game one vulcano was gone, and I let the rivals pass to get a shot. Very entertaining to watch while I was building up my forces.

Do barbarians in PTW have more of a "purpose" or mission than in Civ3v1.29 or do you think they may have more of a random component??

Well I played using vanilla CivIII, the barbarians have not gotten through the choke point yet, so in terms of behaviour it is very hard to tell.

How many people saw any early Pictish Warrior barbs at any locations on the map before the GallicSword Barbs began to appear?

I haven't seen Gallics yet!

Did anyone found a city on the chokepoint and give it away to an enemy to use as a permanent barbarian cork, while you used your units to go an kill the enemy instead of defending the city??

hehe clever! No I didn't think of that. Like I said I have seen a rival city getting raided constantly, but it did not seem to hurt the English very much, they were by far the most rich civ in my game back then.

Originally posted by cracker
What impact does lots of barbarian activity in specific locations have on the behavior of the Rival Civilizations in the game??
[/B]

As a guess I think it makes them more wary of getting into wars. I typically will renogiate peace as soon as its beneficial and as long as it doesn't conflict with conquest plans, and in this game I got a lot more than I would normally. However on the same token, it could have just been that I had a lot more to get from the AI this game, in that my tech was really behind.

I have played to about 300 AD now. I have all the first tier techs in the new age + Chivalry, as have the AI. I don't recall any notification of a barb uprising.

I have sent GS's onto the penninsula and the barbs have just run away. Not a single one has ventured into the main playing area of the map.

If I fortify a GS on a mountain the barbs run away,
If I place an unfortified GS on a mountain the barbs run away.
If I place a fortified GS on a hill the barbs run away
If I place an unfortified GS on a hill the barbs will run away about 75% of the time.

If I stack 2 or three units on a tile the barbs run away.
If I put 1 GS on a tundra tile it will be attacked by as many barbs as required to kill it.

Consequently I have chased the barbs all along the snake trying to upgrade vets to elites to the extent where it will now take 12 turns to get promoted units back to the scene of the accident. By this time they will be facing knights.

I'm playing PTW, and it seems as if these particular barbs are not up for it.

Any road up, as stated in a previous post I have a "difficulty" to resolve at work and will not be able to devote time to CIV for a few days probably. I probably won't be able to post to this thread again.

Unfortunately I can't deal with crackers pop quiz as the interaction with the barbs has been minimal. The question of giving away choke point towns I can say a little about. The AI built Choke point towns in my real GOTM. The result of this was that I could no longer sell them anything for gpt. As I was rushing culture at the time this hindered my progress in the game.

Hi,

I just noticed I haven't posted my save file yet. Somewhere I must have screwed my count, since I save 150BC as my 120th turn save. I hope you guys don't mind.

So here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_redux18_v1_29_barbs_150BC.zip) it is.

I haven't posted for a while because I have PTW now and enjoying the multiplayer mode with tout-la-famille! Even my daugther who is seven enjoys taking part. We have a small local network and I have reason to believe my husband who hadn't touched CivIII (altough he by far outplayed me in civ2 Apple style) will be hooked again soon :) .

So it likely I'll spend less time at the board but more time civvin'! :love:

@ Mad-Bax

Great game, you have a very comfortable empire at turn 120. Concerning your comments on barbarians in PTW, I totally agree. It would be interesting to see the calculations coded into the AI barbarian behaviours. In short you're safe from the barbarians as long as you avoid to get them into your borders. However, once they're uprising in the middle age you better be ready with roads and a mobile defence to defeat them from whereever they should choose to come from(you don't get the warnings allways in PTW). Or they could wreak havok on your improvements in your terrain. Now that the AI don't suicide into your towns; 8 horsemen is a real threat to your empire if your main force is at war leaving you with a token defence force at your borders.

Singularity:

Yes. It appears that barbarians in PTW are opportunistic. If they see the chance to kill something easily (including pillaging) then they do. If there is a significant risk, they do not commit suicide as you say. The AI controlling them seems to me to be poor in that their ability to explore is poor. Yet there is an explore mode for the human player units. I would assume the same code is used for the barbs as this. Why expend the effort doing it twice?

I agree with you. Barbs in PTW are only a problem once they get in amongst your towns. Once there they pose more of a problem than in vanilla. However it appears (from my very limited experience) that Crackers penchant for barb islands means that PTW players and vanilla players may be able to play quite different games. It'll be interesting to see a comparison of games and scores for the two game versions for the Celts GOTM.

I think your game showed more imagination than mine. I particularly liked the city placement between the cows with the irrigation from the river. A really strong move. I wish I had thought of it. Also I liked the way you placed the bottleneck cities.

Did you give them away in the end?

Guess I'll see you in the spoilers (if I get there this month :( )

has everyone submitted?

Cracker - if so, when do you think we might get some feedback (qsc style scoring erc.) ?

ciao

(I know you're busy cracker - I hardly expect this soon , just a rough guideline as to date.

Thx

As soon as we start getting the Qsc18 and Gotm18 results up, then I will be back here to do some more with you. There are several very interesting things that you have revealed here that can be applied to other games.

I had very interesting barbarian behavior in the regular GOTM18 using PTW 1.21. Initially the barbarians came through the choke point. After a while they stopped attacking and just milled about.

Here is the image:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Barbs_GOTM18.JPG

The city at the narrow point absorbed the barbarian hordes during the change of ages.

This situation existed for hundreds of years. The barbs neither advancing or pillaging. The towns on the barb island were a suprise to me. The barbs didn't make any attempts to stop settling near their base camps. In fact I had one gallic swordsmen take out almost all their camps nearly unmolested. This unit was dropped off by boat after I found it impossible to beat back the sheer number of barbs to get there by land.

After several hundred years of milling about aimlessly at the top, they suddenly swept down into the area to attack my city (Curovernum) until each and every last one was destroyed. I barely held them off and needed to rush musketmen to do so. This sudden exodus may have been triggered by a city being built in the top area - maybe when the last land on the island was claimed by China building a city so every square belonged to some civilization. It was not triggered by switching ages.

GOTM 18 was the only game I have ever felt the need to turn off enemy moves. There were enough barbs up there that their "turn" would take at least a minute to complete.

There are definitely rules they follow. I am unsure what they are however. Here is a save if anyone want to play with it. Enemy moves need to be turned on to see the barbs do anything. This save is 170 years after the image above was taken.


Barbarians Milling About (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Greebley_ad1170.sav)

cracker - did you ever get a chance to review the "games" we played here ?