View Full Version : Which treaty do we propose to Elucidia?


Octavian X
Apr 23, 2003, 09:47 PM
Well, take your pick, or have none at all. If an option wins, but people feel that a proposal should be put off until later, it will be done so.

Octavian X
Apr 23, 2003, 09:52 PM
Almost forgot - this poll closes in five days.

Goonie
Apr 23, 2003, 10:02 PM
I vote for the Shen Ling Accord as it does not tie us down in a war Elucidia may start with Apolyton or Gamecathcer when we are not prepared. The Shen Long Accord allows our nations to set a particular time for war, and it does not tie us up in any war on Apoplyton.

Killer A's
Apr 23, 2003, 10:12 PM
The Shen Ling Accord is better at the moment. A little less entangling.

amirsan
Apr 24, 2003, 10:23 AM
I agree, going to war to soon is not the best idea.

amirsan
Apr 24, 2003, 10:29 AM
Shen Ling is more into our advantage (which is good) because we will have an exact amount of captured cities, because our military is weaker than Elucidia according to Turn 40- Military Advisor. Since our forces are not together and formed we can use this to gather time.

Question... Do they realy want to go to war with GC and do they know we want to????

Zarn
Apr 24, 2003, 10:42 AM
I voted for the AUCN, but I can go along with the other one. The Shen Ling Accord doesn't have much structure. It sounds like the Nazi- Soviet Pact, and we know what happened there. I mean that once we get those lands, what makes you think Elucidia will not be looking at our turf? The AUCN provides an unofficial mpp, so they would suffer a worse reputation hit for that. I doubt they would be as willing to break the deal than if we sign the Shen Ling Accord. Am I wrong? I know I came in late, so help me a little.

FortyJ
Apr 24, 2003, 10:50 AM
I still consider the Shen Ling Accord too aggressive at this time. I urge everyone to consider postponing such an offer for a period of twenty turns, to allow our nation to grow to a sufficient size to support such an undertaking.

Remember, even though CDG's Immortals may be primed to start coming off the line really soon, their military is weaker than ours, and thus, by comparison, weaker than GC's too. Not to mention, they also have to deal with Poly, presumably on another border.

If the situations were reversed, and we were in their position, I would argue against signing this deal, out of concern that we would be dragged into a war that we were not yet prepared to fight. Especially, since GC could bring Poly into it and we'd be faced with fighting on two fronts with an inferior military.

Naturally, that's entirely speculation on my part, but I don't think it's too unreasonable or far-fetched, either. Combine this with the fact that we are not yet prepared to launch an offensive campaign against anyone, and I think we have the perfect recipe for disaster.

We should definitely not propose such a deal until we are fully ready to launch an assault on Balance of Power. That way, even if they do not sign on, we are prepared to take action unilaterally, and cannot be hurt by any information leaks between CDG and GC.

The Alliance of Central Nations seems like a rather boilerplate MPP agreement, although I'd probably reword some of the passages with respect to forfeiture of protection and all that. This is certainly more appropriate at this time, but I'm not optimistic that they would sign this either considering the geography of the situation.

Besides, we should be wary of making any such deals until we know for sure where the iron is. What if we have none within 30 tiles of Shen Ling?

amirsan
Apr 24, 2003, 02:15 PM
They know we want to attack and they should know we are not ready yet. When we are ready we will put the Shen Ling Accord in real affect instead of proposing ACUN then proposing Shen Ling which we will want to in the future when we do attack.

Shen Ling does say that niether of us will attack until we are both ready, and we surly know we want to attack. We could use it as a long term aggreement, Probably not just for GC.

FortyJ
Apr 24, 2003, 03:56 PM
Who knows that we want to attack whom?

Also, if the Shen Ling Accord provides that neither nation declares war until it is ready, then it is utterly useless. We might as well just tell them that one day we're gonna go after Gamecatcher, and we hope they'll join in on the fun. This would be a whole lot better than having a signed alliance that doesn't compel either nation to join in the fight "until it is ready".

Besides, not having a formal document on file provides for deniability - a valuable thing indeed.

amirsan
Apr 24, 2003, 04:05 PM
We are going to attack and very soon, it wouldnt look very good if we attack and wait GC to attack and bring Elucidia in when they are not ready. They probably wont enter another treaty again if this happens.

Goonie
Apr 24, 2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Zarn
I voted for the AUCN, but I can go along with the other one. The Shen Ling Accord doesn't have much structure. It sounds like the Nazi- Soviet Pact, and we know what happened there. I mean that once we get those lands, what makes you think Elucidia will not be looking at our turf? The AUCN provides an unofficial mpp, so they would suffer a worse reputation hit for that. I doubt they would be as willing to break the deal than if we sign the Shen Ling Accord. Am I wrong? I know I came in late, so help me a little.

Think about it Zarn. Use logic. Elucidia will be in the middle of Apolyton and US! They would be absolutely stupid to try anything, as it would open the door for us to get Poly to attack on the other front. Reputation in this game isn't like in the SP. It doesn't matter as much.

Goonie
Apr 24, 2003, 04:19 PM
FortyJ and company,

I completely agree that we are not ready at this time. The Shen Ling accord does not need to be rushed out the door. I brought this out, so that we would be ready ahead of time. Although, the reason that timing clause was added FortyJ was to ensure that Elucidia does not attack GC when we are un-prepared. This clause allows us to plan, and coordinated our action down to individual turns.

I will be writing a Foreign Affairs action plan, on the steps that should be taken.

amirsan
Apr 24, 2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Goonie


Think about it Zarn. Use logic. Elucidia will be in the middle of Apolyton and US! They would be absolutely stupid to try anything, as it would open the door for us to get Poly to attack on the other front. Reputation in this game isn't like in the SP. It doesn't matter as much.


Wait a minute... are you proposing to attack Elucidia before or after we attack GC? I think you are thinking tooooo much into the future there. :D

FortyJ
Apr 24, 2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by amirsan
We are going to attack and very soon...
I hope not. While I think that an attack within the next 20 turns may be premature, I fear that an attack within the next 7 or 8 turns may prove to be suicidal. Remember, we don't even know if we're going to have access to iron in order build swordsmen yet.

Originally posted by Goonie
I completely agree that we are not ready at this time. The Shen Ling accord does not need to be rushed out the door. I brought this out, so that we would be ready ahead of time. Although, the reason that timing clause was added FortyJ was to ensure that Elucidia does not attack GC when we are un-prepared. This clause allows us to plan, and coordinated our action down to individual turns.

I will be writing a Foreign Affairs action plan, on the steps that should be taken.

That is indeed reassuring. I would propose that we draft a new version of the Shen Ling Accord that we will hold until such time that we are prepared to present it to Elucidia. This would allow us to prepare a document that actually has some bite and will serve a purpose. After all, it's going to have our capitol's name on it.

What I mean by "such time that we are prepared" is essentially this: when we have swordsmen on the move to the east and war seems imminent (ie. within 5 turns of presenting the document). This way, if they are not ready, and need us to delay for a few turns, we can accommodate and continue bringing troops to a staging area near the front. And if they need longer to prepare, then we can go ahead and take action as we see fit and let them join when they can.

The risk at the moment is this: if we don't make contact with Poly, then we cannot ask them for help. If CDG betrays our trust, we could very well end up in a two front war with both CDG and GC without anyone to come to our aid. If we wait until we have some powerful forces ready to attack, then the potential risk of betrayal is greatly diminished.

Goonie
Apr 24, 2003, 04:38 PM
Wait a minute... are you proposing to attack Elucidia before or after we attack GC? I think you are thinking tooooo much into the future there.

No I am not saying we should attack them. I am making an educated guess saying it is unluckly Elucidia will attack us, based on their position on the continent.

@FortyJ,

I think we think alike :p. If you see my new FA action plan, I suggest alerting Elucidia of this just before we are ready to attack. Aka, 5-8 turns.

Gingerbread Man
Apr 24, 2003, 08:45 PM
I voted for the central alliance thingy, but I will support the Shen Ling Accord IF:

A) We remove the "when we are both ready" and simply submit it to them when we are ready

B) For the moment, we should sign some agreement to signify that we have an alliance between us. Something along the lines of "we wont attack each other, and we will share all the info we know of GC, to prepare for a co-ordinated assault that will happen sometime in the future"

Or how about we submit multiple agreements that we could agree upon, and see which one CDG wants to sign? that would work for everyone. Elucidia would feel like they have chosen an agreement by themselves, but really we wrote it, and it suits us too.

Killer A's
Apr 24, 2003, 09:20 PM
GM, I like the idea of presenting multiple non-poliferation agreements.