Read my opinion first. I'm obviously biased, but you can tell how you feel/think. Vote and share your thoughts!

I've often wondered from where comes the need to create these sexy thugs, heros post-mortem, like Ernesto Che Guevara and Albert Speer?

I can barely understand Guevara, because when his life ended he was still young and famous and his actions were followed by many troughout the world, especially by leftist young females (haha, like my mother at the time). In the photograph taken after his execution his face resembled the face of Jesus and he was seen as a saint. For the communists he then became a martyr, man who fought (really fought and not just sat by the table in a pub trying to talk the world to a better place) and died for their mutual cause (maybe that's why it's then wiser to just sit and...).
Of course which has amused me endlessly Guevara had another coming in favor of capitalism. He's a cool character, kind of rebel with a cause n whom teens can relate to, even though they don't know jack about the cause.

Albert Speer was the Reich Minister of Armaments and War Production, and by the end of the war he controlled almost all German production. He was very competent and efficient in his work, it is said he kept the German war machine going. There's no way in hell he didn't know about how the things actually were, on the contrary he was also very efficient in using the slave labor. In Nurenberg trial he was only one to apologize crimes committed by him and other nazis.

It is a common theme between (with all love and respect I am still pointing and underlining here) future female historians who are writing a study or thesis about the Third Reich that Albert Speer gets almost a hero status. He was pleasant to look at, intelligent, gifted, artsy and young when compared to other leading figures. Very different to Himmler and Göring. But do you have to be so female all the time? These days, when you are reading a thesis from female history student there can be few pages where they even try to prove he didn't know about concentration camps in the first place! This is not a question of revisionism in fashion, they will say other leaders were bad men but Speer was such a charming kind-hearted figure.

Speer was a rotten criminal, leading man in the Reich. There were ordinary soldiers who were hung for much less who were not responsible in high level murdering like Speer was. Of course, Speer wrote memoirs where he cleans his own image by saying he didn't approve Hitler's act and even thought about killing him, but in never did he take part with the real resistance or the real assassination attempt of '44. Speer was so loyal he even risked his life to farewell Hitler in the bunker during the last days of the war. If he really felt remorse and compassion it makes it even worse - he didn't act. The Russians wanted to hang him and they were right, but 20 years in Spandau was all he got and died in London as a rich old man in 1981 or 82.

This idolization of Albert Speer (it's performed by some professional historians also, not just by young female students) is probably a reaction or a result. But of what? Any thoughts?

Other question is, do you by any chance know any other villains history is or is starting to treat for their favor, without a reason?

They are both pin-up boys for morons.

i dont see how any female could consider them sexy, let a lone this predominentlly male forum

you can't deny that che was cool.

Originally posted by animepornstar
you can't deny that che was cool.

I can and will.


He was a dirty gringo :p

Since when is Speer idolized?

I mean, had you said Hitler, Hess or even Heydrich that would make more sense.

It's different with Speer. Hitler, Hess and others are idolized by the Neonazis. Speer is sort of a figure, who is being described as a lone nice guy in the Reich by people, who do not sympathize the Nazis in general.

I think Speer gets treated like he was a complex character, and I think he WAS a complex character. I'd be hard put to describe any portrayal I've seen as building an image of a "hero" or "sexy," though.

While I think Castro's regime quickly deteriorated into a mindlessly self-absorbed dictatorship, I'm at a loss as to how you characterize Che as a "thug." There are many non-complimentary terms you could apply to him, but "thug" hardly seems fair.

So I guess I have to ask what your point is. Jealous? ;)

R.III

Richard III:"So I guess I have to ask what your point is. Jealous?"

:lol: No, I am sexy myself, and perhaps 15 years ago some may have regard me as a thug.

This is a half-baked theory of mine, not necessarily to be taken 100% seriously. Che Guevara was mainly a "revolution in action" type. He wasn't happy in a cabinet or a golf course, but wanted to go on fighting for the revolution. As a soldier and medic.

Obviously many males, like you and me, don't think neither Speer or Che as sexy guys who will turn us on - but some of them think possibly as cool guys - which makes them "media sexy". If you are looking communist and fascist figure to describe the concept you probably end up with CHe and Speer.

Originally posted by Ukas
looking communist and fascist figure to describe the concept you probably end up with CHe and Speer.

Nope, I get Stalin and Hitler with side-orders of Mao and Gobbels ;)

Albert Speer was an educated man, which was unusual in Hitler's court. Goebbels was the only other member of Hitler's inner circle who had a college degree (Goebbels had a PhD in German literature).

Speer realized before and during the Nurnberg Trials that the only way he could keep from being hanged was to admit his guilt, but in such a limited way that he would not be convicted of specific crimes that would get him hanged. This tactic worked so well that Speer, in his Inside the Third Reich, continued the myth that he was a pure bureaucrat working only as a patriotic German for Germany's victory in war.

Dan van der Vat's The Good Nazi: The Life & Lies of Albert Speer (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1997) does an excellent job of exposing Speer's actual crimes.

Speer being idolized? Even used as a sex-symbol? :confused:

I don't think that is so. Care to post any links?

As for Che: it's mostly the boys, who have him on their shirts. I don't think that girls nowadays fall for him in vast numbers.

@kittenOFchaos: "Nope, I get Stalin and Hitler with side-orders of Mao and Gobbels"

I think the concept "media sexy" is superficial and propagandist. Person who is media sexy must be pleasant to look at and appealing to masses as a figure - a kind of character it's easy for you to identify yourself and/or even admire. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Goebbels were icons for their ideologies, true, and Hitler managed to raise similar mass hysteria and adoration as Beatles and Elvis did later among young girls - but only in their time and in their society. They didn't appeal that much to other nations then and today they are considered as rather strange individuals. Then again Speer, who's seen today as an complex and intelligent figure who according to himself had an internal conflict about his role and the whole Reich - therefore seen as almost an outsider in the Reich - is someone much easier to identify oneself. Same goes with Che - fat and old Mao or paranoid and old Stalin just can't raise much positive thoughts these days.



@smalltalk: "Speer being idolized? Even used as a sex-symbol?
I don't think that is so. Care to post any links?
As for Che: it's mostly the boys, who have him on their shirts. I don't think that girls nowadays fall for him in vast numbers."

I don't necessarily think if it's conscious idea, but as I said earlier Speer is seen often as a saint compared to the other fellas. This started already during the Nurenberg trials - first he was thought as a nazi leader who was in charge and the Allies were happy to have cought him - death sentence was planned, but in the same moment when he apologized and explained his actions - he was alone to do this in the trials - he was largely forgiven and sentenced in prison only for 20 years by the Western Allies. It was the Russians who made it sure that he served the whole time. The Western Allies would have released him on parole earlier.

This has been the trend after that - I've read numerous studies, articles and books about the Reich from different writers and historians from around the world and I'd say in about 80% Speer is seen as a comparatively nice guy almost. Last one I read was Berlin 1945 by Anthony Beevor and there were many citations straight from Speer's self-explanatory book. Beevor is populist in his history interpretation, but I mentioned this as an example.

As for Che: "There goes that cute guy with that cool Che T-shirt!" The boys wear Che T-shirts and berets, because they want to reflect their attitude by their clothes and also in an effort to look cool to girls. It would be somewhat strange for a girl to wear Che stuff, since it would be easily viewed as lesbian/feminist/communist insignia.

Originally posted by YNCS
Speer realized before and during the Nurnberg Trials that the only way he could keep from being hanged was to admit his guilt, but in such a limited way that he would not be convicted of specific crimes that would get him hanged. This tactic worked so well that Speer, in his Inside the Third Reich, continued the myth that he was a pure bureaucrat working only as a patriotic German for Germany's victory in war.

Dan van der Vat's The Good Nazi: The Life & Lies of Albert Speer (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1997) does an excellent job of exposing Speer's actual crimes.

There is no need to expose Speer of his actual crimes, he was convicted of them.

I am relying more on Spandau Diaries than Inside the Third Reich for Speer's version of events, but I never came to the conclusion that ITTR made him out to be a pure bureaucrat at all. Seemed balanced and yet made him seem more complicit, not less, in my view, which is why I'm not in such a hurry to dismiss either book as mere self-serving propaganda. Saying "hey, I was a friend of Adolf Hitler" is not exactly a line of logic likely to accelerate international forgiveness... But, thanks to you, I will reread both in the near future (it's been about 12 years or so since I did).

I don't think the issue is whether Speer is sexy, or a hero, or a victim; rather, to me, the useful thing about Speer is that he seemed capable of actually reflecting on what he'd done without simply re-drinking the kool aid. Is he still a war criminal? Yep. Did he reflect perfectly? Not at all. But the reflections are useful for what they are: a testament that these bastards were human, and all made human decisions, which is more useful in anti-nazi education than the easily-distanced "they were all just crazy murdering thugs" line that most histories now take.

R.III

I agree - for educational purpose there's a good tv-film 'Conspiracy' about Wannsee conference. There a bunch of leading figures of the Reich discuss the matter of Final Solution just like a bunch of industrialists would discuss about opening a new coal mine. Nazi Germany was organized society, not a bunch of villains scheming their plans in the cellars. Although the title of the movie is stupid, probably some halfwit producer idea.

Anyway, I always thought todays youth was completely unpolitical and would endorse Che Guevara only out of fashion reasons ...

I guess that is what a big part of todays youth is and does - but as a revolutionary guerilla Che is cooler symbol for a t-shirt than for example young Bill Gates. In any case it could be an indirect political act to wear Che-shirt - even if they don't know more about him. I'm not saying they shoudn't but it's just comically typical for the age.