This is a strong question. I'll hand in options.
Greece
Rome
France
England
United States
Israel of the Hebrews
Egypt
Other

Don't get angry at me for including someone not-suitable or forgetting someone suitable.
I tried my best, and you can always choose other and specify. The point of this poll is the argument itself, not the voting options.
Thanks

Greece. :p

(NOTE: I am Greek)

Seriously, Alex the Great started it. Or Caesar. They are tied. Since I am Greek, Greece gets the edge!

Why did I include Israel?
The Hebrew society (The bible).

I never questioned you putting in Israel...:hmm:

Stop apologizing Ice. :p

But please tell me what you regard as the Western Civilization. It all depends on that.

It started with the Native Americans in North America with some influence from the South American Natives.

True. Define 'western civilization' as it is a vague concept

ITS BEGUN!?!?!?! :D :D :D

Good point.

Germany. Most of the populations of the western world orignate there.

Originally posted by History_Buff
Germany. Most of the populations of the western world orignate there.

I don't think ANY of the Native American populations originated from Germany. If you could prove such a thing, that would be intriguing however.

Several posters have pointed quite correctly that this thing called 'Western Civilization' really needs some kind of a definition.

Originally posted by History_Buff
Germany. Most of the populations of the western world orignate there.

What? Could you elaborate on that.

A. I think this should be moved to the History Forum.

B. I think 'Western Civilization' began with the Greek City-States.

I'd say Western Civilization is distinct enough f/ Roman and Greek Classical Civilization to say that it began after they fell. I'd credit Charlemagne's Francish empire, the first amalgum of Germanic and Classical cultures...

So it began in France.

The modern incarnation of Classical Civilization is probably best reflected by Latin America. They primarily speak Romance languages and worship in the church of Rome.

Western Civ is a Germanic-Romance blend.

Originally posted by Magnus
A. I think this should be moved to the History Forum.

B. I think 'Western Civilization' began with the Greek City-States.

The Garden of Eden, for Adam was a white man from Oxfordshire and Eve was his French mistress ;)


Seriously I agree that the Greek City States was where Western Civilization began, though we soon forgot about the tolerance of homosexuality and that the world is indeed round :rolleyes:

I would say Greece. Our whole civilization is formed by several layers of cultures and previous civ, and the first one is Greece.

I know Greece is popular. But come on! Greece didn't even start in the west. And I don't know if anyone could say that just how deeply rooted Western Civilization exists in modern-day Greece.

The Native Americans developed the first civilizations ever to be truly successful and stable in the Western Hemisphere. Many of these cultures are still enriching our lives today. Look at the 'old West' mock-ups you see going on in Germany. They can't get enough of Native American Culture! This is where it began guys. This is where it began.

I don't really think that Native Americans are typical Wester Culture :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Flak
It started with the Native Americans in North America with some influence from the South American Natives.

What? you gotta be joking
I'd say the native americans were somewhat amalgamted into western culture but only recently if you consider the appropriate length of time

I agree..It started with the Greek city States

This is where it began guys. This is where it began.

My arse

Western civilization, what a concept, I think we ought to try it.

France, England, and Spain started started the Western World by their claiming of the land, and gave the Western World their traditions. I don't think the Western Civilization actually started until the first revolution from their mother country was succesful. Who was that, BTW? Ancient Greece inspired the way things are done in the Western World, but that was decided on by those who seperated from their civilization of origin.

Britain, with the invention of the sandwich.

Bacon Sarnie?

Of course.

I think some of you guys are mixing up the term western civilization with the west (i.e. america).
Western Civilization is a term that describes culture and traditions in the ways of thinking and behaving, that mostly originates from Greece and Rome, and contitutes a paradigm that is mostly the same throughout the Western World (i.e. Europe and America).

There is simply no arguing that western civilization originates from Greece. Period.

The Greeks have laid the philosohic grounds for our culture. Most of the Great Questions in philosophy and science have been raised by them. Their ideas have been discussed for centuries, without very much being added to them.

Otherwise, their culture does not blend very well with ours. Their comedies are not very funny, in the sense Shakespeare is funny. Their science and philosophy is very imaginative but often also very speculative. Their mathematics was nothing but geometry; if Pythagoras would be confronted with the contemporary rendering of his own a^2+b^2=c^2, he would not recognise it.

I don't think, western civilization started in Greece. It didn't at all start at one distinct place. It started at a certain time in history. People then came up with a new way of thinking. Copernicus, Bruno, Gallilei, Toricelli, Newton, Luther... a way of thinking based on experimentation and obvservation, rather than on dogma.

Originally posted by smalltalk
The Greeks have laid the philosohic grounds for our culture. Most of the Great Questions in philosophy and science have been raised by them. Their ideas have been discussed for centuries, without very much being added to them.

Otherwise, their culture does not blend very well with ours. Their comedies are not very funny, in the sense Shakespeare is funny. Their science and philosophy is very imaginative but often also very speculative. Their mathematics was nothing but geometry; if Pythagoras would be confronted with the contemporary rendering of his own a^2+b^2=c^2, he would not recognise it.

I don't think, western civilization started in Greece. It didn't at all start at one distinct place. It started at a certain time in history. People then came up with a new way of thinking. Copernicus, Bruno, Gallilei, Toricelli, Newton, Luther... a way of thinking based on experimentation and obvservation, rather than on dogma.
Well, now you're getting into detail, but sure..I'm not saying you're wrong. Though I still believe it started in Greece.

i don't get it. i see very few similarities between american lifestyle/culture and european lifestyle/culture. if you're talking about sitting on chairs instead of pillows then i get it, but other then that... i just don't see how you could call that amount of land and people a "western civilization".

Been there, done this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38925) already. My vote was for Pope Stephen and the Franks in the 8th century A.D.

I like to think of "Western Civilization" as the industrialized powers during Imperialism, so Britain gets the edge. But that's just my interpretation.

Of course we can argue, we are fanatics! If we all had the same ideas, there would be very few threads.

Originally posted by Vrylakas
Been there, done this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38925) already. My vote was for Pope Stephen and the Franks in the 8th century A.D.

Hehe, but most people voted Greeks and why not as their unique unit is rather useful :D

Originally posted by Magnus
I think 'Western Civilization' began with the Greek City-States.

Ditto

civilization begins when you are born and ends when you die.

Originally posted by sween32
i don't get it. i see very few similarities between american lifestyle/culture and european lifestyle/culture. if you're talking about sitting on chairs instead of pillows then i get it, but other then that... i just don't see how you could call that amount of land and people a "western civilization".

You have to look at the whole world. You are right, European and American lifestyle/culture is different, but compared to the culture/lifestyles you see in the middles east, Asia, Africa and so on, they are radically different. When putting cultures into those types of broad categories, there is no other way to do it than to put America with Europe as a "western civilization." Plus, 90% of America's population is decendant from Europeans.

Anyway I think Greece had the earliest significant contribution to what Western Civilization has become. But I dont think there is one major source. It has evolved over thousands of years with many, many different sources.

So, you're saying that South Africa would be considered Western Civilization but Rwanda wouldn't be?

Originally posted by Architekt

My arse

Originally posted by MrPresident
Britain......

Coincidence?

England is a new civ compared to others. Greece is the oldest and were once big in science so I picked Greece, Germany sorta makes more sense though.

Chinese = Beijing
Japanese = Kyoto
African = Zimbabwe
Middle Eastern = ????? What is it ???

Native Americans are mostly Mongols.

Originally posted by MCdread


What? Could you elaborate on that.

FIRST: WESTERN CIVILIZATION MEANS NA AND EUROPE

Sure. I'll delve in deeper. Note that my Germany should be Germanic people of the Roman - Medieval era.

Sure, a good deal of the known civilization started in Greece. But even Greek societies started from Germanic tribes that moved in from the north. Same with Rome. Germanic people, who migrated south.


More importantly however, the German people quickly annexed most of the Western Roman empire after Roma began its decline. This means that France, Spain, England and Germany, all all German people at this time. It is from these societies that all of the European nations as we know them developed. The Three colonizers, Spain, England and France, are all made up of Germanic people. It was these people that colonized the New World. It was also England, France and Germany that would be the main players on the world stage.

Plus, to a much lesser extent, both WWI and WWII kinda depended on Germany. :p

civ·i·li·za·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sv-l-zshn)
n.
An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.
The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.
Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The Sumerians were the first ones to have a written language(mainly for record keeping), so in comparison to all the other barbarians they were "civilized" first.

Originally posted by History_Buff


FIRST: WESTERN CIVILIZATION MEANS NA AND EUROPE

Sure. I'll delve in deeper. Note that my Germany should be Germanic people of the Roman - Medieval era.

Sure, a good deal of the known civilization started in Greece. But even Greek societies started from Germanic tribes that moved in from the north. Same with Rome. Germanic people, who migrated south.


More importantly however, the German people quickly annexed most of the Western Roman empire after Roma began its decline. This means that France, Spain, England and Germany, all all German people at this time. It is from these societies that all of the European nations as we know them developed. The Three colonizers, Spain, England and France, are all made up of Germanic people. It was these people that colonized the New World. It was also England, France and Germany that would be the main players on the world stage.

Plus, to a much lesser extent, both WWI and WWII kinda depended on Germany. :p

Then I'm sorry to say, but you're not making justice to your name in this post. One thing is the german tribes gaining control of what remained of the decadent western roman empire. Another thing is the populations they ruled. Of all the countries of western Europe that were part of the roman empire (I don't know anout England though), France was the one were the migration of germanic tribes was more abundant, but the contribution of german people (from which the biggest share came from the Franks) was never more than 10 % of the total population. And that's by far the highest estimation I have seen. In Italy and Iberia it was about 2 or 3 %. It is a misconception that some people have, that in the Early Midle Ages, there were germans everywhere. There weren't. The war lords and some nobles of the medieval monarchies might be of german descent, but not the population. Also, the presence of italian people outside Italy during the Roman Empire was never more than 5% in average, and the same for greeks in the east during the hellenistic and roman times. The difference was that the romans' culture became proeminent, because it was more advanced that the native ones, while the geramn tribes adopted instead the existent culture to a high extent, ie, the roman one. So, your claim is quite inacurate.

Originally posted by History_Buff

But even Greek societies started from Germanic tribes that moved in from the north. Same with Rome. Germanic people, who migrated south.

I would recommend changing your name to History_Bluff instead. The Greeks and the Romans descended from the Indo Europeans that moved into Europe from Asia, and so did the German tribes. So in that sense they were related, but Rome and Greece did NOT come from Germanic tribes moving south. That statement is quite inaccurate.
Go check your sources will you.


EDIT: changed "laughable" to "inaccurate" and removed smilie.

Civilization or if you wish western civilization started in Mesopotamia. The civilization that once excisted there influenced everything that came later, including Egypt, "Israel of the Hebrews", Greece and the Romans, who were in turn heavily influenced by earlier Greek civilization.

Oh, by the way, I define this "early" civilization as a certain area in which people live under a kind of central government, sharing a language spoken and written and living by a code of law. Seems vague but it was quite an acomplishment 3500BC. It is a very big difference of the hunter seeker societies which excisted in most of the places mentioned above. (Apart perhaps from the America's. I really don't know anything about a pre-columbian civilization that excisted at that time. I recall from my memories that first civilization as defined above developed as late as 1000AD, but I am far from sure about that.)

History_Buff wrote:

FIRST: WESTERN CIVILIZATION MEANS NA AND EUROPE

Sure. I'll delve in deeper. Note that my Germany should be Germanic people of the Roman - Medieval era.

But the Germanic peoples who invaded Europe in Classical times were neither Westerners nor even Europeans. Remember, they were invading from Asia. Byzantine sources noted that some of the Germanic tribes - especially the Goths - were particularly primitive even when compared to non-Germanic invaders like the Huns. Also, while a history book may present a neat and clean picture of a tribe as an ethnic group moving across continents, in reality tribes were vague social units that typically contained many sub-units and clans of peoples from other ethnic groups. The status of women and slaves in these tribes also often entailed a lot of what we would call ethnic mixing. 19th and early 20th century European paleo-ethnographers, flush with nationalism, tried desperately to attach ethnicities to many Classical tribes in Roman Europe, often based more on fancy than reality. The bottom line is that the Germanic Invasions really involved many non-Germanic tribes as well, and even among those we know were Germanic they came with many non-Germanic travellers.

Sure, a good deal of the known civilization started in Greece. But even Greek societies started from Germanic tribes that moved in from the north. Same with Rome. Germanic people, who migrated south.

???? Where did you get this synapsis?

Are you reading German-language sources (or translations thereof)? I ask because you may be a bit confused by a linguistic term. In English and many other European languages the language family from which most of our languages derive is called "Indo-European", but the Germans refer to this language family as "Indo-Germanic" (Indo-germanische). Same family, different name. This does not at all mean however that the earliest Indo-European speakers were Germanic peoples; in fact the Germanic speakers only fairly recently broke off from the Balto-Slavic-Germanic partition of the Indo-European language family. Simply said, at the time of the general civilizational collapse of 1200 B.C. that heralded the arrival of the Greeks in Mediterranean history, there was no such thing as Germanic peoples.

More importantly however, the German people quickly annexed most of the Western Roman empire after Roma began its decline. This means that France, Spain, England and Germany, all all German people at this time. It is from these societies that all of the European nations as we know them developed. The Three colonizers, Spain, England and France, are all made up of Germanic people. It was these people that colonized the New World. It was also England, France and Germany that would be the main players on the world stage.

The Germanic tribes of Medieval Europe were just that - tribes - and they did not have any political cohesion at all. They happily fought one another just as ferociously as they fought Romans or others. They didn't have the ethnic awareness that we moderns do, and it is therefore dangerous to apply modern concepts of ethnic pride backwards onto peoples who didn't hold these same values. There was no German polity to "annex" anything. Also, you may recall that the Germanic tribes were just as often shoved out of formerly Roman regions (for instance the Gepidic and Avar invasions of the Carpathian basin that shoved the Goths westward). Modern Lusatia, Saxony and even Schleswig-Holstein were overrun by Slavs in the 6th and 7th centuries, and wouldn't be "recovered" until the 9th century (although a Slavic minority, the Wends or Sorbs, still exist in southern Lusatia today, leftovers from this era). The Germanic tribes began to develop serious political structures only after they settled down and adopted Roman concepts of governance.

Plus, to a much lesser extent, both WWI and WWII kinda depended on Germany.

??? So what? France caused a much longer series of wars in 1792-1815. The Cold War revolved around the USSR. I don't undrstand your point. What does modern Germans' history have to do with Medieval peoples? This doesn't make sense.

My perspective:

A Civilization is not a nation, it's broader than that. (The game Civ actually does a poor job of simulating Civilization dynamics in some ways because it's all or nothing w/ regards to warfare. In RL, nations go to war -- a Civ is more an extension of culture. If Civ was more realistic, any city could declare war on other -- even w/in the same Civ! And in fact intra-Civ warfare is much more common historically than inter-Civ warfare... But the Civ as a whole would not be at war w/ the rival Civ.)

A Civilization is primarily indicated by the a) language, b) religion, and c) social philosophy of it's people. By social philosophy I mean the difference between individualistic Western Civ citizens and for example more collectivist Japanese citizens.

Western Civ is embodied by North America (north of Mexico) Australia and of course W. Europe. It used to dominate S Africa, but W Civ in S Africa is declining.

It's language is a blend of Germanic and Romantic. English, German, French, Italian, Scandinavian languages, Gaelic and perhaps Spanish and Greek and some Slavic tongues. But MOSTLY it is dominated by Germanic languages.

It's religion is Christian, a blend of Protestant and Catholic -- but MOSTLY dominated by Protestantism.

It's social philosophy is scientific, individualistic and democratic. More so than any other Civ in the world, the individual is important to Westerners.

Compare W Civ to the two adjacent Civs -- Slavic/Russian and Latin American.

Slavic/Russian's primary language is Slavic -- Russian, Czech and various E. European languages. It's religion is Orthodox. It's social philosophy is collectivist, authoritarian, rational.

Latin America's primary language is Romantic -- Spanish and Portuguese. It's religion is Catholic. It's social philosophy is also more authoritarian than W Civ.

I feel that although ONE of W Civ's roots is in ancient Greece, so many other Civs have contributed to it's character along the way that it's incorrect to say that it STARTED there. It didn't really exist until the last of it's primary influences took hold. Before that, Greek values were embodied into Classical Civ.

W Civ ABSORBED Greek Civ, but Greek Civ is only a component of W Civ.

So W Civ really began w/ the Germanic tribes, who contributed it's dominant language group (Germanic) and it's individualistic democratic principles (Scandinavian Democracy) and eventually it's unique contribution to world religion (Protestantism) under German Martin Luther.

It's heavily influenced by Roman ideals, and clearly Rome (and through Rome, Greece) contributed major language and social institutions to W Civ, but those are only components of the whole.

The religious character of W Civ has it's origin in the Middle East w/ Judaism, and then Rome w/ Catholicism, but Protestantism is different f/ either of the core faiths. It is individualistic in character, w/ it's emphasis on reading the Bible rather than studying catechism as w/ Catholicism, or hereditary faith as in Judaism. Protestantism is uniquely evangelistic.

The first nation that embodied most of W Civ's characteristics was the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne, and it should get it's just due as the birthplace of W Civ, around 800 AD.

History topics belong in the history forum...moved.

Originally posted by History_Buff


FIRST: WESTERN CIVILIZATION MEANS NA AND EUROPE
Sure. I'll delve in deeper. Note that my Germany should be Germanic people of the Roman - Medieval era.

Sure, a good deal of the known civilization started in Greece. But even Greek societies started from Germanic tribes that moved in from the north. Same with Rome. Germanic people, who migrated south.


Then how do you explain that ancient Greek is very different from Celtic or the languages of other northern European tribes ? I think you confuse the Germans with the whole mass of peoples of Northern Europe both Ancient and medieval. If they migrated from Northern Europe, the Dorians and Ionians are not necesarrily German. Actually, a better deffinition of the term German is needed. For the Romans it was simple: barbarian... ;)

Mojo wrote:

Compare W Civ to the two adjacent Civs -- Slavic/Russian and Latin American.

Slavic/Russian's primary language is Slavic -- Russian, Czech and various E. European languages. It's religion is Orthodox. It's social philosophy is collectivist, authoritarian, rational.

O matka Boska

If anyone hears muffled, gentle weeping in the corner, it's just me. Ignore it.

:cry:

Greece did not start the Western Civ, I think it is a common misconception among American and Europeans that we are the only ones affected by Greek Culture. This is not true the Arab world was just as affected by Greek Culture as we were, in fact Arabs were reviving Greek Culture far before Europeans were. In my oppinon Western Culture can't be traced to an exact starting date or nation. But I think the closest we can come is Charlemagne France.

On the assumption "Western Civilization" means "European"
(disqualifying Native Americans), I say that it really began
in Sumeria, and the Greeks, etc. built off of it. It's true that
our currently culture doesn't resemble the Sumerians, but
one wouldn't expect it to, given 3000+ years to evolve...

FWIW.

What is western civilization today?

It is capitalism. It is production. It is knowledge. It is science.

These are the values of industrialization. It did not start from Greece. Whatever cultural value Greece provided to Europe is long gone. I give my vote for England for starting industrialism.

Originally posted by theage


You have to look at the whole world. You are right, European and American lifestyle/culture is different, but compared to the culture/lifestyles you see in the middles east, Asia, Africa and so on, they are radically different. When putting cultures into those types of broad categories, there is no other way to do it than to put America with Europe as a "western civilization." Plus, 90% of America's population is decendant from Europeans.

Today in the US the 90% European is down to 67% European. The US has the same historic roots as Europe but that seemes to be changing quickly. The US and Europe are evolving in opposite directions culturally. Though "the West" is a real thing now, I think that soon it will cease to exist.

Wolverhampton, December 16th, 1873.

R.III

When did the education of the people really start? I don't think there's a single country behind that.

Ancient Greece is the overwhelming favorite -- because it was the FIRST major Civilization in a series of cultures that resulted in Western Civilization.

The argument goes that many of the institutions that Western Civ incorporates began w/ Greece.

But I feel that a Civilization is defined by it's dominant language and religion, and a certain measure of it's character that is less concrete, but palpable.

Hence I feel that Western Civilization can't be described as a Classical (Greek & Roman) Civilization extended into the 21st Century. It's a descendent of Classical Civilization, but there are so many other cultures that have contributed to it, it is far different from ancient Greece.

In Western Civ the dominant languages are a combination of Germanic and Romantic tongues. Germanic influences are dominant, especially if you consider (as I do) Latin America to be a distinct Civilization of it's own, with the European Romantic language-speaking nations (Portugal, Spain, France, Italy & Romania) to be the cultural ancestors of Latin America. (The Romantic-language Western European are actually kind of a blend of the two civilizations, as is the United States of America as it borders Mexico, and Canada with it's strong French influence.)

The Germanic influence also extends to the religion of these nations. Most of the people of Germanic-speaking nations converted to Protestantism, which was introduced by German Martin Luther.

The Western concept of democracy, of individuality, has more in common w/ Scandinavian cultural values than Greek.

I feel that the dawn of Western Civilization is best measured by it's LATER major contributor, and especially by the contributor of it's primary language and religion. That would be Germany.

Specifically, I feel that the reign of Charlemagne (Carolis) was the first incarnation of Western Civilization. He was of German descent, but incorporated many Roman ideas into his empire.

Western civilization inherited it's language from the Germans, and it's organizational structure from the Romans who it turn inherited much from the Greeks. The religion of Western Civilization, Protestant Christianity is a German interpretation of Roman Catholicism, which in turn is a European interpretation of Middle Eastern Christianity-Judaism.

Germanic culture was the LAST (so far) great influence on Western Civilization. At the point where another culture overshadows the current Germanic one, the nature of Western Civ will change and it will become a NEW Civilization. This is what Western Civ did to Classical Civ before it.

Id say Greece, there still exist three 'superblocks' of basic philosphical and cultural influences around the world;

Grecio-Roman:
Europe obviuosly and of course 'western philosophy' so previalent becuase of us terrible terrible europeans going around and claiming random bits of the globe, decided it liked christianity which changed it but not all that much.

Egypto-Persian:
The middle east and north africa, still relevent despite how much islam changed it because as with the europeans and christianity many of the original basic philsophical foundations remain.

Indo-Chinean:
India, china etc. Main difference is the mutli-god nature of eastern religions, i reckon its fair to say this is the one that has been eroded the most over the years, for example china through it perverse (and in-acurate) use of a weird form of 'communism' basically means its signed up to a Romano-Crecian philosophy.

I dont any of them are better than any others but quite clearly these are the three that have effected the world the most.

What u all rekon?

I think we ar etalking about the start of western civilization, not civilization in general.

Civilization in general started with the Sumerians. They showed the rest of the barbaric tribes that organisation of the masses worked well.

I believe western civilization started with the beginning of the Roman Catholic church, and if I am not mistaken didn't that start when the Roman Emporer relocated to Byzantine? (I'm not smart with history, just interested)

Going by the idea that civilization is based on religion, language, science and law, the final days of Rome would be it. When the emporer (I think it was the one after Nero) Claimed christianity as the roman religion, moved to byzantine.

A large amount of english and french language is derived from latin, and most scholars studied in latin. Many country's governments developed from the roman republic (and Greek democracy) - that is, after they got over the age of kings and emporers, and into the age of Presidents and prime ministers.

But please, correct me. As I said, I'm not good at history, just interested.

Since I define the first "Western" civilization as the begining when western thought arose, its definetely Greece, beginning with Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, or the Mycenaean period. The ideas in those stories are about valour, honor, and doing your duty. Oriental civilization emphasized being a quiet and good citizen, and also keeping the old traditions.

Just because the Roman Empire wasnt christian or they lacked the characteristics of many later countries, such as a monarchy, does that imply that it wasnt Westrn, but the other main type of culure-was Rome oriental?

Greece- it started the concept of democracy....The rest have carried the torch with varying degrees of success.