The Mongols conquered almost every civlilization in the Old World. The only significant area to escape their conquest was the area of the old Roman Empire and its commonwealth. Why didn't they?

The Mongol advance definitely have the West a nasty fright, but was that all it ever could have been? Could the Mongols have conquered the West?

If they weren't already stretched too far then I'd say yes.

They could have, but they weren't interested. Europe back then wasn't the best place to go if you wanted to loot and plunder.

I don't know if they could. Even if we ignore the fact their forces were streched, the Mongols were at their best on open plains, whereas central europe has mountains, rivers and forests.

Exactly , besides there were so many more easier targets in India and China.

A common theory is that they turned back because one of the sons of the Khan died,so all the Lords had to return home to take part in the following power struggle,to answer the question why they didn't.

I think they could have conquered the West in the meaning of burning down all cities,enslaving or killing the population of big parts of Europe and looting everything they could.But I don't think they would have stayed for long,but rather soon returned to the East.The West would have survived,but would have been forced to begin almost completely new again.

Considering the terrain,though they were Nomad Plain hordes,they were able to overcome the Chinese wall,to fight in the Afghan mountains,Arabian desert and had already defeated a Polish army in Liegnitz,so they could have crossed Elbe,Alps or Rhine without too big problems.

Yes; except for Britain and Ireland. They never
understood the sea; they failed to invade Japan.

The Mongols actually sent scouts as far as Spain and Iceland (yes, Iceland) to see if there was anything there worth taking. Surprise, surprise, there wasn't so the Mongols didn't bother. Everywhere else in the world would have been more lucrative and the Mongols were aware of that. So the Mongols instead used diplomacy to try and strike an alliance with the Christian countries against the Islamic Countries. But to answer your question, they could have.

Originally posted by EdwardTking
Yes; except for Britain and Ireland. They never
understood the sea; they failed to invade Japan.

They never understood the sea? :crazyeye:


The Mongols were clever enough to know that were their knowledge was inadequate, they'd find a man who can and threaten him and maybe give a few demonstrations.

As for Japan they used the helpful Koreans to ferry them, just a shame about the Tsunamis and the hordes of Japanese to greet them ;)


I don't think the comment, "They never understood the sea" and "they failed to invade Japan" belong together.

Interestingly it is thought the phrase Kamikaze (Divine Wind) was coined as a result of the typhoons that sank the ships.

personnally i think it all would have depended on how they would have gone about conquring, after all a "heathen"(i use the term only for empisis,not my actual opinion) threataning Rome would have gotten a considerable force of allies from christian kingdoms then lets say france would have ;)

European armies, all of them , would have been no match for the new kind of warfare of the Mongols, i.e., a sort of Medieval Blitzkrieg.

Originally posted by allhailIndia
European armies, all of them , would have been no match for the new kind of warfare of the Mongols, i.e., a sort of Medieval Blitzkrieg. I'm not fond of the Mongols, but I'd have to admit they're the toughest foes who had ever took on China, and the first and only barbarian people, to conquer all of it, on their own terms. Many other nations found the same.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
The Mongols actually sent scouts as far as Spain and Iceland (yes, Iceland) to see if there was anything there worth taking. Surprise, surprise, there wasn't so the Mongols didn't bother. Everywhere else in the world would have been more lucrative and the Mongols were aware of that. So the Mongols instead used diplomacy to try and strike an alliance with the Christian countries against the Islamic Countries. But to answer your question, they could have. Aye, the Mongols already had a recon force under Batu going around, leaving behind a trail of destruction in Poland, E Germany and Hungary before returning East, to join the khurikitai (sp?) to decide on the next Great Khan.

And that's just a recon force!

Originally posted by EdwardTking
Yes; except for Britain and Ireland. They never
understood the sea; they failed to invade Japan. The English Channel (IIRC, my geography's getting rusty :)) was far far easier to cross, compared with the Sea of Japan.

There's a reason why it's a channel separating Britain fr Europe, and why it's a sea separating Japan fr Korea and the rest of Asia. ;)

But the Mongols would have to fight on the beaches and shores of England, not something which they showed great skill at in Japan.:hmm:

Originally posted by allhailIndia
But the Mongols would have to fight on the beaches and shores of England, not something which they showed great skill at in Japan.:hmm: During the second expedition to Japan, Khubilai sailed something like 150000 Mongol and subject troops to Japan.

Had a similar number headed for Britain, all of Europe combined couldn't contain it. ;)

IIRC, the Mongols were not able to maintain a beach head against the Samurai and their fantastic swords. Although the English did not have such good training or swords, I believe that on home soil, they would have been a match for the Mongols.

Plus, the Mongols would have to adjust to terrain they have never before fought on or had maps of.:hmm:

Originally posted by allhailIndia
IIRC, the Mongols were not able to maintain a beach head against the Samurai and their fantastic swords. Although the English did not have such good training or swords, I believe that on home soil, they would have been a match for the Mongols.There were two expeditions, separated by a couple of years (due to emergencies on the mainland). The first time, the Japanese really got lucky. The Mongols landed to the total surprise of Japan, but withdrew soon, due to the weather, and their small fleet and army was later mostly destroyed by the storms, leaving few ships to limp back to the mainland.

The second time, the Japanese were prepared. Built a wall, where the Mongols were deemed likely to land. The Mongol forces landed, some of them. But most of the army and fleet were still at sea, and destroyed again by the weather I think.

The Japanese had no problem mopping off the Mongols who had already landed, and had lost their connection with the fleet.

I don't think the Mongols would have so many problems with the weather, in the English Channel. Notwithstanding the Spanish Armada... (which was centuries later anyways).

Plus, the Mongols would have to adjust to terrain they have never before fought on or had maps of.:hmm:The Mongols would recon first, before doing anything major. The entire excursion into Europe by Batu was nothing more than a recon in force, by Mongol standards, to seek opportunities for plunder. Seeing nothing, they withdrew and reported this, never to return much.

a little bit off topic as the terrain is totaly different to the european, but didn't the mongols fail to take vietnam? i think i read something like that a long time ago.

i think that they didnt move further west than poland or eastern germany was because, as some1 has already mentioned, the mongol (or tatar) empire was stretched out too much. the Great Khan couldnt have possibly commanded an empire that large by himself, especially since the capital was in mongolia, which was in the empire's far-east. it wouldve been quite easier for the western subjects to revolt and take over and do stuff in defiance. the only thing stopping revolution was the large and skillful armies. so, the empire began with one Great Khan, but as it expanded, lesser kings or princes gained regional power. the empire was basically a federation of the kingdoms, and eventually the Great Khan families died out and there were power vacuums left over, which fragmented the large empire into numerous khanates, the ones in ukraine and (kievan) russia had eventually gotten overthrown by the people and they became eastern-orthodox christians, the central asian khanates, while at first they were maybe opposed to the muslims, became muslim. the ones in china also got independence and there was a re-unification of the chinese. (i think. sorry i dont kno much about far-eastern history, so sorry if im wrong). the original center of the empire in mongolia devolved into tribal and warlord provinces and wars, and as time passed, mongolia was dominated by its ambitious neighbors.

"mongol (or tatar) empire"

Tatars were a very loathable and barbaric tribe, even considered such by the Mongols, they were all but killed off by Genghis Khan. The Tatar Khanate is another name for the Golden Horde, though.

The Mongols also had a very effective communications system, it would take only three days from news from the furthest reaches of the empire to reach the Great Khan in Mongolia. Local dynasts did not gain any real special power until Kublai Khan moved the capital to China, when the communications system fell apart.

Also, Mongolia was impossible for foreigners to have any form of control over until the 17th Century, they were still a large threat to China until the 18th, so it is not like they were easily dominated by their neighbours. Even today, Mongolia is hardly dominated by either China or Russia (just heavily protected by Russia)

Just read somewhere that the Mongols where a small part of their army. Lots of Turks in it.

the mongol military may have been unsurpassed, but i still find it hard to belive that they could have overcome the sheer man power of western europe thrown at them in the form of mainlly peasent levies that would have occurd(well that, and the scotsmen...you cant beat a man easilly when he is wearing a good kilt!)

Originally posted by Xen
the mongol military may have been unsurpassed, but i still find it hard to belive that they could have overcome the sheer man power of western europe thrown at them in the form of mainlly peasent levies that would have occurd(well that, and the scotsmen...you cant beat a man easilly when he is wearing a good kilt!) Yes, indeed the Mongols would have cowered in fear and fled in the face of the masses of peasant levies... :rolleyes:

Wow, the sheer masses of them... :rolleyes:

China had hundreds of millions of them and it did no good - peasants don't make excellent soldiers against the hardened and tough Mongols fr the harsh steppes, prior to modern times. Not to mention the other nations and empires.

For comparison, all the manpower of W Europe could have easily fitted into the population size of the largest Chinese province...

Originally posted by calgacus
The Mongols conquered almost every civlilization in the Old World. The only significant area to escape their conquest was the area of the old Roman Empire and its commonwealth. Why didn't they?

The Mongol advance definitely have the West a nasty fright, but was that all it ever could have been? Could the Mongols have conquered the West?

Well, I'm not an expert in this issue.
One question comes to my mind: were the mongols able to siege an stronghold and take it? My idea of the mongols is a lot of horseriders, and I don't know if they ever faced this kind of problem in their conquest. Does anyone know?

Originally posted by Jorge
Well, I'm not an expert in this issue.
One question comes to my mind: were the mongols able to siege an stronghold and take it? My idea of the mongols is a lot of horseriders, and I don't know if they ever faced this kind of problem in their conquest. Does anyone know? In the beginning, no. But when they began coming up against cities and fortresses during the first sweeps into the Jin Empire in N China, they recognized the problem and took steps to rectify it i.e. mainly thru the capture and employment of subject troops well-versed in the art of siegecraft.

One of the things they demanded fr subject peoples were always military manpower and warcraft experts. As time went on, the Mongol armies usually consisted of a core Mongol cavalry, augmented with other nomadic cavalry and infantrymen fr the subjugated nations, plus corps of specialists like the siege experts etc. ;)

The thing about the Mongol leadership was that they had no qualms about using foreigners to get the job done. E.g. when Hulagu swept into Persia to take out the Hassassins, he had Chinese explosive experts with him, to blow the Hassassins out of their mountain strongholds. ;)

China had hundreds of millions of them and it did no good - peasants don't make excellent soldiers against the hardened and tough Mongols fr the harsh steppes, prior to modern times. Not to mention the other nations and empires.

correction, poorlly motivated masses dont fight well, but a mongol army invading Rome would have huge masses of highly motivated, angrey christians, with the best weapons availble to them(although granted this wasnt much), i think that even if Rome was a good target at time the sheer difficulty of so many would have driven them out

...but at least you didnt disagree on the kilt issue! :D

I think they could. They expansion did not stop until some sixties of XIII century. The battle of 'Ayn Galut stopped them from conquering Egypt, and they lost Syria because of that. Mamluks who defeated them there also made use of rivalry between Golden Horde and Ilkhanate - and in fact I believe that only the internal struggles started several years later stopped Mongols from new big campaigns in the west.

Most historians agree today that there was little in Europe militarily that could have held off the Mongols. Simply said, Europe in the 13th century was a backwater and did not have anything near the mobility, logistical and siege technology available to the Mongols. The bloody result of Legnica in Silesia was a very natural outcome given the Europeans' tactics and would have likely been repeated a hundred times over. The only obstacle facing the Mongols in a conquest of Europe would have been the Alps. Not that it could have stopped them - they'd already penetrated the Carpathians and the Balkans ranges - but there were few places to feed their horses in the mountainous regions. Some historians have cited this as a possible reason the Mongols did not bother moving farther west from Hungary and the Adriatic in 1242 before their withdrawl.

It became fairly clear not long after the Mongol withdrawl from Europe that there would not be a second attempt; Pope Innocent IV sent a mission in c. 1245 to the Mongols to protest attrocities and his emissary came back mentioning splits within the Mongol camp- that looked to be permanent. (I know this because the Pope directed Poland to supply the requisite gifts to the Khan for this mission.) Batu in Sarai, where the Pope's emissaries had stopped before moving on to Mongolia, had refused to make the trip himself despite his required presence there for Küyük's ascension to Great Khan. Already by 1253, Europe felt secure enough to send an emissary to Mongke Khan to negotiate a possible anti-Islamic alliance. Although it didn't work out, it was entertained seriusly for some time and the Mongols nearly converted to Christianity.

Originally posted by Vrylakas
It became fairly clear not long after the Mongol withdrawl from Europe that there would not be a second attempt; Pope Innocent IV sent a mission in c. 1245 to the Mongols to protest attrocities and his emissary came back mentioning splits within the Mongol camp- that looked to be permanent. (I know this because the Pope directed Poland to supply the requisite gifts to the Khan for this mission.) Batu in Sarai, where the Pope's emissaries had stopped before moving on to Mongolia, had refused to make the trip himself despite his required presence there for Küyük's ascension to Great Khan.Batu was the son of Jochi, GK's eldest; there're already bad feelings betw Jochi and the other 3 sons. Mainly due to Jochi's suspected birth (he was born after Bortei was rescued fr the Merkits, who'd kidnapped her). And Jochi wasn't popular. The feelings got transmitted down the lineages, amplified by the power struggles now appearing.

Already by 1253, Europe felt secure enough to send an emissary to Mongke Khan to negotiate a possible anti-Islamic alliance. Although it didn't work out, it was entertained seriusly for some time and the Mongols nearly converted to Christianity. Some of the Mongols were Christians - the last tribe subjugated by GK, the Naimans, were almost entirely Christian. Just that they weren't Catholics. :p They're Nestorians, whom were unacknowledged by the Catholic Church. ;)

The Mongols were open-minded about religion - and favored all religions equally, fr Taoism to Shamanism to Islam to Nestorian and Catholic Christianity.