Please, explain why the Celts declined so much that they are on the verge of extinction today.

In the time of the Roman Republic, they dominated all western Europe west of the Rhine, north of the Po. They began to decline during, or rather, just before the 2nd Punic War. The last independent Celtic culture was destroyed on the aftermath of Culloden (1746). They are now effectively dead, although two modern states retain Celtic languages as official languages.

Why did it happen to them?

One might want to consider, why did the Celts decline but the Germanic tribes didn't? What was the important difference?

IMO, the Celts haven't declined. They've just incredibly well assimilited to the local cultures. They have brought a lot to modern culture and are still very present in places like Brittany in France, Ireland, etc.
Contrary to the Romans, the Celt hadn't any intentions to form an Empire and "culture-assimilate" the conquested lands population.

The Celts did not have the political orginization needed to survive. True, while most of central and northern Europe was under Celtic influence, there was no political authority other than local chieftains. Not until invasion by the Romans did the Celts see the need to band together, but by then it was too late.

They lost out to the romans because there was no real political unity.

But they aren't facing extinction at all, there is no modern decline.

I think the same as napoleon526 on this one.
I think when people read about the the vast land that at the Celts inhabited over history, they mistake it for some sort of vast empire.

I doubt there was hardly any unity between the tribes, and some of them probably never even felt some sort of connection to the other.
When they did eventually band together against Rome, it was, like napoleon526 says, already to late.
I think there close proximity to Rome and likeing a fight did'nt help either.

The German tribes were on the edge of Romes empire, when they started to get their act together, Rome was starting to decline.

A people are defined by thier culture. Celtic culture is alive and well in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent Brittany.
I doubt its on the verge of extinction. Old traditions and culture is running along with new ones, and at times Intertwining.

The old celt has just modernised thats all.

In the 19th century Pan-Slavism swept through much (though not all) of East Central Europe. Nowadays the dream of living in a Russian-dominated super Slav state seems to have lost its sheen, so some odd things have been popping up since. Poles have pined about their alleged Irano-Sarmatian origins, while Czechs nowadays are apparently "re-discovering" their Celtic heritage. The article below is a snippet from a Czech radio website (found here (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/10937)):

The Beltine Celtic festival to take place in Moravia

[18-04-2001] By Alena Skodova
By Alena Skodova.

At the end of April a festival of Celtic culture will be held in the Czech Republic, organized by the Brotherhood of Celts Association, which was founded five years ago. Alena Skodova spoke with the brotherhood's chairman, Tomas Krivanek.

"Beltine is an old, pre-Christian holiday by which our predecessors some 2000 years ago celebrated the coming of the warm, sunny season. It used to be a very merry holiday with beer drinking, roasting pigs and other animals, and huge bonfires - something like today's good bye to winter and welcome spring holiday that we celebrate at the end of April called "witch burning". The Beltine festival in the Czech Republic at present is a migrating holiday, and is being organized for the 7th time, alternating between Bohemia and Moravia."

Mr. Krivanek said that there will be more than 150 performers at this year's Beltine festival which will feature horse riding, archery, dancing and music. Visitors will see for instance the Petronila ensemble, which is considered the best Irish dance group outside of Ireland. But the greatest attraction will undoubtedly be the Luarna Lubre group from Galicia in Spain - a world famous Celtic music band that often plays with Mike Oldfield both at concerts and in the recording studio.

This year's Beltine will take place in Moravia, in the village of Nesovice near Brno, and I asked Mr. Krivanek why did the organizers choose this location?

"Nesovice are an extremely interesting place because there's a chateau there - pure Italian Renaissance in the middle of Moravia - secondly, this chateau has never been open to the public and it is likely to fall into private hands so there won't be any chance to see it in the future. And last but not least the Nesovice mayor welcomes us with open arms - the Beltine festival can only take place in a location whose representatives show understanding for such a venture."

Experience from the previous years show that there are usually some 2000 people taking part in the Beltine holiday celebrations. In truth, the organizers don't really want the numbers to exceed several thousand people because it wouldn't be like the family venture that they want it to be.

The Beltine Celtic festival will take place on April 30th and May 1st, so if Celtic culture is your cup of tea, don't hesitate to join other revelers on their way to Nesovice. It should be worth it.

Originally posted by calgacus
One might want to consider, why did the Celts decline but the Germanic tribes didn't? What was the important difference?

Maybe because the Celts were on the way of the romans?

Originally posted by gael
I think the same as napoleon526 on this one.
I think when people read about the the vast land that at the Celts inhabited over history, they mistake it for some sort of vast empire.


I agree.

Thinking of the Celts of Spain, Britain, Ireland, Gaul, North Italy, and Asia Minor as 'one big nation' is like thinking that the Native Americans who inhabited the great plains and forests of the North American continent were 'one big nation'.
They were in fact many independant tribes all sharing a common culture....but not a common leader or government.

The early Germanic tribes were the same, but not being conquered by the Romans, they had many centuries to evolve their political & social structure (and indeed copy some aspects of Roman society for themselves).
The Celts never had this luxury....they were conquered before they had time to change.

Originally posted by luiz


Maybe because the Celts were on the way of the romans?

Well, yeah. Pure chance. The Celts got in the way of the Romans. One has to remember two things 1)the Romans had a pathelogical obsession with Celts, because of their sack of the city and various defeats which they inflicted, and, 2) the Romans had possibly reached the limits of their expansion before they actually got to Germany. The Germans were thus saved.

It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.

Celtic culture is alive and well in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent Brittany.
I doubt its on the verge of extinction. Old traditions and culture is running along with new ones, and at times Intertwining.

pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

There's a lot more to a culture than language.

Please, explain why the Celts declined so much that they are on the verge of extinction today.

Well, I do not think that the celts are on the verge of extinction. Nor do I think that the western Islands of Europe were truly "celtic". If I remember correctly, the western Islands of Europe were penetreted by some celtic settlers. A minority which would put a clear cultural stamp on the other people living there.

Than for extinct-culture. The culuture of the Germanic-tribes you mention, isn't around today anyway. Those people interbeeded and their culture mixed, developing something new. I'm living in a former celtic-heartland, Helvetia. And the romans mixed with the celts, resulting in a celtic-roman culture. And they mixed with the migrants to come, mixing with them, originate just another new culture.

Roman culture is complete extinct too, but left many traces. So did the celts, and I think it's more then city-names like Geneva or Zürich. Ever heard of "Fasnacht" ?

what happen in Culloden (1746)?

Originally posted by Al Zan
what happen in Culloden (1746)?

english defeat bonnie prince charles and pretty much end scotlands independence

Originally posted by Seanirl
It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.



pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

This is the second time I have read this rubbish from you mate. It was bull then and it’s still bull

First, Gaeilge declined mainly to the famine and the subsequent emigration. The people who left and died in the 1800’s where by and large the poorest of there time and it was in that community that the language was kept alive. The middle classes mostly spoke English as that was the language of law and business. Even saying that, only 50 miles from where I am sitting there is a Gaeltacht area where English is only spoken to strangers.

Second, the whole country is not in a mess. We are in better shape that we have been for 70 years. There are troubles, but nothing compared to what we had in the 80’s. Unemployment is at roughly 5%, the population is young and growing, and immigration is the norm, not emigration. Things are being built and the life of most of our people is good. Spare us your rubbish about a Third world country; that is idiocy. We are one of the richest countries in the EU now.

Third. Ireland has one of the lowest tax burdens in the EU on its citizens and on business.

As for VRT (that’s Vehicle Registration Tax folks, a really high tax on new cars), yep is sucks, but I’m sure that you would be angry if income tax went up. But I tell ya what, start buying second hand cars.

Here’s a question, did you vote in the last election, and before you say it, I did and not for the FF/PD government we have now.

So, how about you do your country favour and stop talking threw your arse.

As for the Celts, well lets be honest, we only have ourselves to blame. Why we didn’t just burn Rome to the ground and save the rest of the world a lot of trouble I will never know. But, we survived and are still here. Bloody Romans.

Originally posted by Seanirl
It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.



pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

Man, that language of yours really refresh some memories of my time in Dublin ! :D Not that I agree with your ideas, though !
Reminds as well of one poster at TCD were it was written : "one country, Ireland, one language, ?".

Bad neighbourhoods.;) :)

More seriously, I second entirely what D' Artagnan wrote about both assimilation and organization.

Now, you could ask nearly the same question about Romans who controlled in a better way a larger area.
Where are they now ?

Their language is partly around but mostly thanks to Latin. And Italians today probably don't have much to do with the Romans of the second century AD who in turn were probably much different from the ones of the first century AD.

Celts adapted to Romanization and later German invasions. I am not sure Romans could have done the same to Celtic culture easily. Now this is a mere rethoric question since Celts never had the organisation to control and assimilate people such as the Romans.

Originally posted by LouLong


Man, that language of yours really refresh some memories of my time in Dublin ! :D Not that I agree with your ideas, though !
Reminds as well of one poster at TCD were it was written : "one country, Ireland, one language, ?".

One adjective.

I knew the Irish were professional grade haters, but I had no idea they were still angry with the Romans, who have been out of business for what, 1500 years?

"one country, Ireland, one language, ?".

Sounds more like one brain cell.

First, Gaeilge declined mainly to the famine and the subsequent emigration.

and what the hell do you think caused the famine? Blight did cause the famine but the famine wouldn't have been as much of a problem if people only had potatoes to live on because they were too poor to get anything because of paying rent to the landlords and were being kicked out of THEIR houses on THEIR land to die on the street

Second, the whole country is not in a mess.

maybe not but it's heading that way. Bin taxes. VRT. Ugh.

We are in better shape that we have been for 70 years. There are troubles, but nothing compared to what we had in the 80’s. Unemployment is at roughly 5%, the population is young and growing, and immigration is the norm, not emigration. Things are being built and the life of most of our people is good. Spare us your rubbish about a Third world country; that is idiocy. We are one of the richest countries in the EU now.

yes. now. now. Now things are like the 80s but it's definitely heading that way unless someone does something and the government stop buying several million euro planes.

As for VRT (that’s Vehicle Registration Tax folks, a really high tax on new cars), yep is sucks, but I’m sure that you would be angry if income tax went up. But I tell ya what, start buying second hand cars.

why would income tax have to come up if VRT went? they don't have VRT in France or Germany.

Seanirl, I'm from the north were the wounds of the past are constanly being reopened.
Get me drunk enough and I'll sing your song, but at the end of the day we were never innocent victims, we just could'nd get act together and got our ass kicked. This is the way it was everywere, reading history books and punching walls will only make you bitter and boring.

The Irish conquered scotland from the picts, had settlements in north wales and were constantly raiding the west coast. The anglo/saxons were invited into britian by vortigern to hold back these raids, albiet the picts and saxon pirites were also a threat.
If they had'nt run over southern britian the Irish probably would have, or at least had a go at it. We were no angels, just not organised.

A lot happened in the english conquest of ireland that any english man will tell you was disgraceful, but the england then is not the england of today.

As far as ireland being a third world country(?), i think your being a bit over the top to say the least.

The Scots consider the Irish Republic as a "golden example of a Celtic Tiger economy" and basically the way to go. (I'll try and stay on topic, Celts! not Scottish devolution ) . I have heard that Ireland is doing well in with euro too.

Originally posted by Kafka2


One adjective.

:lol: :lol: Indeed, a f****** one that is !

BTW Calgacus, I think you might be mixing culture and ethnicity.
The Cletic culture (such as the Halstatt one) expanded over large-areas that were not always celtic-inhabited.
This loose culture superimposed on previous ones and might give the wrong impression it was a unified world. Proto-Germans and some Slavs were not exactly identified as such and were incorporated in the celtic culture. One example would be the Cimbri and Teutones invasions. Teutonics were Celts but Cimbri were probably more of the Germanic type but still "incorporated" in the Celtic group. People in that area just had not really started to identify themselves in "pure" ethnic and cultural group (Germans did the smae later when they would incorporate vanquished tribes into their ranks). Another one would be the Celtiberians. The fact that the Belgae settled partly in Southern Britain and that later some Celticized groups were pusehd to the mountain or island "reserves" of Wales and Ireland does not mean these are "pure" Celtic people either. A DNA testing was made some years ago in Wales that proved beyond doubt that there was not much in common between Wesh and corpses of "Celtic" tombs of the Halstatt period in Central Europe. When Gallia became Roman, the dominant culture of this kind switched from Celts to Germans but does not mean an ethnical (very hypothetical) Celtic group disappeared. It just changed and assimilated.

Originally posted by Seanirl


and what the hell do you think caused the famine? Blight did cause the famine but the famine wouldn't have been as much of a problem if people only had potatoes to live on because they were too poor to get anything because of paying rent to the landlords and were being kicked out of THEIR houses on THEIR land to die on the street



The blight led to the start of the famine, of that there is now doubt or argument. That the British occupation caused the famine is true (in fact I feel we should ultimately blame Raleigh, he introduced the spud to Europe thus changing the staple from Turnips to potatoes) but what you said was,

“ pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.”

it is not a case of preference, at the time it was the poorest, the landless and labourers who communicated solely in Irish and it was this class which suffered the most in the Famine, a million died and a million left. Those who stayed and lived spoke both and as the language of the government and the language that was solely taught in the few schools was English the language used or shopping and conducting business changed. The main language in the cities at the time was already English and slowly the rural areas followed because they had too, plus after the famine Ireland’s population went into a decline. Before 1847 there was about 8 million living here, in the 1920’s it was as low as 2.5 million. Those that kept the language alive just died off or emigrated.

Originally posted by Seanirl


maybe not but it's heading that way. Bin taxes. VRT. Ugh.



So, without raising tax how does a government run these small things that it pays for? You know, Education? Health? Courts? Sanitation? Gardaì? Things like that. Tax is a fact of life. Get used too it.

Originally posted by Seanirl


yes. now. now. Now things are like the 80s but it's definitely heading that way unless someone does something and the government stop buying several million euro planes.



They bought a plane for €10 million. That was it. As for us heading for what happened in the 80’s, what sort of an eejet are you? First, there are a huge amount of reasons for the problems in the 80’s. The give away budget of 1979 and the massive government borrowing that followed. Government borrowing to pay for everyday expense like public Service pay and Social welfare, unemployment of up to 25% at one stage, added to that a downturn in the world economy, very poor infrastructure and the fact that Ireland never recovered from the 1973 oil crises, when we lost most of our heavy industry. Today, we have an unemployment rate of 5%, which most economists regard as full employment. Government borrowing is low and only for capital spending, the national debt is the second lowest in Europe, in the past 5 years there has only been one that job creation has lower that redundancies (that is this year and it looks like it will roughly break even) and infrastructure developments and investment is going on around the country at a tremendous pace , like in my own city where over €200 million will be spent in the next 4 years on new roads, rail and drainage alone.

The screw ups of the 80’s are in the past. We have learned from our mistakes and were lucky, and smart enough, to get and use the help of the EU to rebuild, develop and grow into a truly modern, well developed western state. A process that is never finished but one which is well under way. But then donkeys like you are too busy whinging to realise that.

Originally posted by Seanirl


why would income tax have to come up if VRT went? they don't have VRT in France or Germany.

Because France and Germany may have a low VRT but they have a high Income and Corporation tax. We have a high VRT, a low Income tax and a very low Corporation Tax.

Originally posted by barron of ideas



knew the Irish were professional grade haters, but I had no idea they were still angry with the Romans, who have been out of business for what, 1500 years?

I hate it when people say things like that :)

Originally posted by LouLong
BTW Calgacus, I think you might be mixing culture and ethnicity.
The Celtic culture (such as the Halstatt one) expanded over large-areas that were not always celtic-inhabited.
This loose culture superimposed on previous ones and might give the wrong impression it was a unified world. Proto-Germans and some Slavs were not exactly identified as such and were incorporated in the celtic culture. One example would be the Cimbri and Teutones invasions. Teutonics were Celts but Cimbri were probably more of the Germanic type but still "incorporated" in the Celtic group. People in that area just had not really started to identify themselves in "pure" ethnic and cultural group (Germans did the smae later when they would incorporate vanquished tribes into their ranks). Another one would be the Celtiberians. The fact that the Belgae settled partly in Southern Britain and that later some Celticized groups were pusehd to the mountain or island "reserves" of Wales and Ireland does not mean these are "pure" Celtic people either. A DNA testing was made some years ago in Wales that proved beyond doubt that there was not much in common between Wesh and corpses of "Celtic" tombs of the Halstatt period in Central Europe. When Gallia became Roman, the dominant culture of this kind switched from Celts to Germans but does not mean an ethnical (very hypothetical) Celtic group disappeared. It just changed and assimilated.


Very true. The only real thing that united (in a very rough sense) the Celtic tribes was a shared cultural identity. You only have to look at the languages of the Gaels and the Welsh to see the difference. The Celts were never a homogenous group with a definite social and political identity. They were a large group of tribes form different areas that shared a cultural identity through art, religion and tradition. In fairness to the Romans there qualities were the weaknesses for the Celts. Unity of purpose, discipline and ruthless efficiency where what led to the downfall of the Celts of Gaul, Germania, Spain and Briton. The Celts were pushed t the fringes of Europe because regardless of how many they could muster in a battle, they only very fought on there own, never collectively. And against the Romans that was suicide. Unless you had a forest on your side of course, and the Romans were led by an idiot, you could win then.

I seem to remember the Roman idea was, if you could only win once, be sure it was the last battle.

@barron of ideas,
the Irish are not first grade haters, but we do suffer from a vocal minority of morons, who use a loose knowledge of history to moan about anything. Take a bow Seanirl, you have just reinforced just about every negative steriotype of the Irish. Please god I hope you don't live in a cottage.

@Calagus,
Some of the above posts illustrate well the answer. The Celts are a cultural group not really an ethnic one. Genetically I have much more in common with the anchient Irish builders of Newgrange than the Celtic invaders but culturally I'm totally Celtic. BTW there is no modern Celtic decline. The Irish, Scots and Welsh are Celtic and fiercly proud of it. I also know at least one Serb who considers himself Celtic. We're still here the Romans gone, I don't think we did too badly huh?

@Cullyn,
Go raibh maith agat a chara. Thanks for spotting this early and kicking Seanirl. Saves me the trouble. Your country thanks you.
Failte go CFC.

One last thing barron of ideas, looks like the Romans were wrong.

Originally posted by Tathlum
[B. I also know at least one Serb who considers himself Celtic. We're still here the Romans gone, I don't think we did too badly huh?

[/B]
I wonder who can be that one?


Well Byzantians and Ottomans were also gone, Serbia still stand on the same place waiting for a new invaders to fight against.

;) :D

@Tathlum - Waiting on your answer to last PM.

See a Serbian Celt.
No he isn't just a paddy who moved to Serbia he's a native.
Seriously Celtic culture is in no danger. When you have eastern Europeans finding out about their Celtic past, Two Celtic languages that are still living, We keep winning the Eurovision song contest and you have an Individual and easily recognised style of music and Art you have nothing to worry about. The Two most popular sports in Ireland are Gaelic games (hurling and Gaelic football), soccer only manging to come third ( though its probably the biggest in Dublin).
While Celtic influence may have declined since the second centuary BC but for a culture that is 2500 years old its not doing too badly is it?
German tribes invaded an Empire that was dying on its knees and that left the new kingdoms with an already built infrastructure and pacified citizens. The divided Celts faced a genocidal military superpower that was rising as a power and dedicated in purpose. The Celts inflicted many defeats on the Romans but even confederations of Tribes could not match the resources or Organisation of the Empire. It was not weakness on the part of the Celts but Roman might that sealed the fate of the Continental Celtic Kingdoms.

(BTW hi Alone, answered your PM)