In the Homeric story of the Iliad, there is a king Menelaus of Sparta. But I read that Sparta was founded in the Greeks dark ages, which occured after the Trojan War, by the barbaric Dorians.
If anyone knows anything about this mistake by Homer, or has noticed it before, you can share your explanations or comments about this.

I never noticed this before. Perhaps the site was previously inhabited.

IIRC, many of the Mycenean (Homeric if you will) cities were abandoned or razed during the turbulence of the Dark Ages. Sparta was probably one amongst many refounded later, when civilised life got going again... After all, there're only so many good city spots in Greece.

Its only a poem and not in anyway purports to be historically accurate. However not having the original Greek in front of me I cant be certain but I m guessing that he is referred to as king of the lakedaimonians (sp)which was an area of the Pelops. rather than the polis of Sparta
Calgacus or Porphry are your best bets for a good answer

Thanx guys...

Peri I do think that the poem had an ounce of truth in it.

XIII, several of those cities were Athens and Pylos. I'm just supporting your idea.

Homer used locations everybody knew. It was easier for people to understand the story if they could associate it with what they knew.
The site of Sparta was at that time occupied by a city named Amyklai, which was later adopted into the Spartan polis.

Thanks Stephan

Here's some information which I hope will clarify matters somewhat.

In the Illiad: Homer refers to Menelaus not as king but simply as the brother of Agamemnon or more often with a pleasing adjective such as agathos (good) - 'the good Menelaus' - blonde Menelaus, handy with the spear Menelaus (one word in Greek but translates badly into English), glorious Menelaus and so on. Agamemnon alone gets the titles ruler/master/lord (kreion/anix etc). Menelaus is simply the leader of the Lacedaemonians and they comprise of a number of cities all listed in Book II (the famous and seemingly endless ship list). These include Pharis, Messe, Bryseiae, Augeiae, Amyclae and Helus, Laas, Oetylus and Sparta.

The Homeric Sparta is difficult to place but the historic Sparta (archealogical and scholarly approved) was that founded by the Dorians in the 10th century BC. Prior to them it is held that the Minyans (also mentioned in the Illiad as descendents of Ares/Mars which fits in nicely with latter Spartan history) founded Sparta but where driven out by the invading/migratory Dorians who refounded the city.

The Homeric Sparta is that which belongs largely to the mythical tradition with which most 'Greeks' were familiar (although some scholars identify the Minyan period as the Menelaus/Agammemnon period). According to legend, Atreus' two sons Agammemnon and Menelaus ruled over the Argive territory (Mycenae/Argos etc) and Laconian territory (Sparta and list above) respectively. Menelaus was given Sparta by Tyndareus (the rightful king) who also gave his daughter Helen to him (see Apollodorus' Library and Epitome for this). His other daughter Clytemnystra went to Agammemnon (both proved to be great headaches :lol: )

In the Odyssey: Menelaus appears in Book 4 (the last of the so-called Telemachoi) but he is not in Sparta. Telemachus goes "to the hollow land of Lacedaemon with its many ravines..." and is fortunate to be at the wedding of Menelaus' son and daughter. It distinctly says that he is bringing his son's bride from Sparta ("but for his son he was bringing to his home from Sparta the daughter of Alector"). This has led many to assume that another city was Menelaus' capital. The top of the list falls on the city of Therapne which archaelogical evidence shows was highly prosperous and a seat of power at some stage.

Pausanias: He gives us a mix of local history and myth, claiming that Sparta was founded by Lacedaemon and named after his wife (NOTE: He wrote during Roman times).

"According to the tradition of the Lacedaemonians themselves, Lelex, an aboriginal was the first king in this land, after whom his subjects were named Leleges. Lelex had a son Myles, and a younger one Polycaon. Polycaon retired into exile, the place of this retirement and its reason I will set forth elsewhere. On the death of Myles his son Eurotas succeeded to the throne. He led down to the sea by means of a trench the stagnant water on the plain, and when it had flowed away, as what was left formed a river-stream, he named it Eurotas. Having no male issue, he left the kingdom to Lacedaemon, whose mother was Taygete, after whom the mountain was named, while according to report his father was none other than Zeus. Lacedaemon was wedded to Sparta, a daughter of Eurotas. When he came to the throne, he first changed the names of the land and its inhabitants, calling them after himself, and next he founded and named after his wife a city, which even down to our own day has been called Sparta".

As for Amyklai (Amyclae), I'm afraid I must disagree with Stefan and say that the two were very distinct cities (Amyclae was bigger earlier on). Sparta and Amyclae co-existed as cities for centuries in different locations (Amyclae is south of Sparta).

Lastly, I would like to add that the Illiad has NO flaws whatsoever. It is a monumental read and a masterpiece.

EDIT: Fixed my typo (thanks earendil)

Porphyrogenitos- Thanks for your comments. I always regarded Menelaus as king of Sparta since I was like 10. I agree that the Iliad was a masterpiece, in fact it was 1 of the 2 books (the other being the Odyssey) that was the origin of Western literature (at least I think so). What I am now wondering is if the Spartans of classical times regarded themselves as of the same kin as the "Spartans" of the Mycenaean era, and if it could account fot their militaristic nature.

PS- When you say Pelops was the father of Menelaus and Agamemmnon, then do you mean Atreus? And when you say "Minyans", I am wondering if Homer really mean the Minoans, who he also mentions a little bit in the Odyssey, and dissapeared a few centuries before the supposed time of the Trojan War.

First I better apologize for my slip of the pen (if we can still call it that on the net). I meant to say Pelops was the father of Atreus who was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus. I obvioulsy forgot to type it in (no spell-checker for thoughts unfortunatley).

As for the Minyans, they are a distinct race based in Orchomenus (Boeotia) and as such are not Minoans.

Here is an excerpt from our trusty ancient tour guide Pausanias:

"Minyas had a son Orchomenus, in whose reign the city was called Orchomenus and the men Orchomenians. Nevertheless, they continued to bear the additional name of Minyans, to distinguish them from the Orchomenians in Arcadia. To this Orchomenus during his kingship came Hyettus from Argos, who was an exile because of the slaying of Molurus, son of Arisbas, whom he caught with his wedded wife and killed. Orchomenus assigned to him such of the land as is now around the village Hyettus, and the land adjacent to this."

NOTE: The Orchomenians in Arcadia are also mentioned in the Illiad (Book II, 2.605) and as Pausanias says, are different from the Minyans (very confusing admittedly).

Pausanias also mentions the founding father of the Minyans as being as certain Andreus (founder of Andros). Andreus seem to be of Carian stock and hence has 'mainland Greek origin' (ancient sources disagree about this). Of course it is near impossible to tell if they had Minoan connections at some earlier point in their history but by the time Homer wrote about them they are clearly distinct groups.

Here is an excerpt from Herodotus which hints at the Minoan/island origin of the Carians (or at least their inclusion in the Minoan empire of Minos). It is very interesting:

"the Carians have come to the mainland from the islands; for in the past they were islanders, called Leleges and under the rule of Minos, not (as far as I can learn by report) paying tribute, but manning ships for him when he needed them. Since Minos had subjected a good deal of territory for himself and was victorious in war, this made the Carians too at that time by far the most respected of all nations. They invented three things in which they were followed by the Greeks: it was the Carians who originated wearing crests on their helmets and devices on their shields, and who first made grips for their shields; until then all who used shields carried them without these grips, and guided them with leather belts which they slung round the neck and over the left shoulder. Then, a long time afterwards, the Carians were driven from the islands by Dorians and Ionians and so came to the mainland. This is the Cretan story about the Carians; but the Carians themselves do not subscribe to it, but believe that they are aboriginal inhabitants of the mainland and always bore the name which they bear now; and they point to an ancient shrine of Carian Zeus at Mylasa, to which Mysians and Lydians, as brethren of the Carians (for Lydus and Mysus, they say, were brothers of Car), are admitted, but not those who spoke the same language as the Carians but were of another people."

Thucydides goes for the island origin of Carians but lists them as distinct from Minoans (Book 1, 8.1)

I'll get back to you on the Spartans as I have to run...

If we accept the existence of the house of Atreus as fact (all ancient histories do) then we can safely assume that Sparta during her Dorian phase was a hybrid of Mycenean and Dorian elements thorugh inter-marrying. The Greeks often retold the 'legendary' origins of Sparta but the Spartans themselves are fairly silent on this score. This does not mean they didn't believe it. As Pausanias tells us "The Spartans seem to me to be of all men the least moved by poetry and the praise of poets". This helps explain their silence on the matter. This also makes it hard to decipher their mindset. The Spartans of the classical days honoured their great kings rather than the 'mythical/legendary' ones. Lycurgus who instituted the major reforms which made Sparta the power she was rates at the top of the list. As Thucydides puts it:

"But at last a time came when the tyrants of Athens and the far older tyrannies of the rest of Hellas were, with the exception of those in Sicily, once and for all put down by Lacedaemon; for this city, though after the settlement of the Dorians, its present inhabitants, it suffered from factions for an unparalleled length of time, still at a very early period obtained good laws [Lycurgus' time], and enjoyed a freedom from tyrants which was unbroken; it has possessed the same form of government for more than four hundred years, reckoning to the end of the late war [Pelop. War], and has thus been in a position to arrange the affairs of the other states."

Must run again...but will be back with some more tomorrow I hope.

Porphyrogenitos I think that it is important to note that the Ionians were Aechean refugees coming from the Greek mainland, thus it was the late Myceneans who drove them out, before they became known as Ionian. All Hellenic cities on the mainland shared the kin of the Dorians from the classical age onward, for the most part. Early Minoan times to the dark ages is a long time for the Carians to live on the islands.
As to the Spartans, it was very unpopular for someone to go around talking about the "great history of Sparta" or whatever, as they were basically heavily pressured to be disciplined as a soldier. In fact the Spartans disliked the "fine arts" so much that it was illegal for a citizen to work, as it was done by the helots.

I am a little confused. The last tyrant of Athens was kicked out in 510 bc, not too long before the pelop war, not 400 years. and when hey says Lacedaemonians then I am assuming Thucyclides means a city in the region of Arcadia (but probably he meant Sparta itself, not sure though), which was under Spartan control. The Spartans were not exactly in favor of kicking out their kings.

correct me if im wrong on any of this, i probably am :crazyeye:

I think you are a little confused and perhaps it's my fault. Thucydides says that Sparta enjoyed stable government for 400 years, not Athens (he is talking about Sparta). When he says the tyrants were driven out of Athens Thucydides is talking post-Peloponnesian War (the excerpt is his overview found in the beginning of the work). He means the Spartans by defeating the Athenians and their allies eliminated tyrrany as well (if only he knew that most would re-embrace tyranny).

As for the Carians, they themselves held that they were mainlanders though all the sources cite an island origin (contemporaries with Minoans). The time frames are not improbable.

You are right about the Spartans and their love (or lack therof) for the arts.

I am unsure what you are referring to when you say "The Spartans were not exactly in favor of kicking out their kings." Did I mention something along these lines?

I am in a hurry as I write this and will get back to you in detail at some later stage. Hope this doesn't confuse things too much.

Oh and by the way the Athenians got another taste of tyranny after the Pelop. War. This one Spartan sponsored no less. The Thirty Tyrants led by Critias.

When I talked about how the Spartans were not in favor to embrace their kings, i was just saying that the Spartans never got rid of "tyrants." If the tyranny Thucyclides was talking about is Athenian imperialism, then I misunderstood him. But the Spartans always had two kings who have been called tyrants by the Athenians. So, it was really the SPartans who supported tyranny, as they were ruled by a council of old men called "emphors" and the two kings that I previosuly mentioned.

Also, there is some intersting information on King Minos that I have found.
The legendary name King Minos, who presided over all of the Minoans, may have actually been a dynasty of "Minoses" that ruled Crete, because he is found in an awful lot of legends and tales. Minos also may have been a title, like the Egyptian pharaoh. And here is a VERY important bit of information on the topic of the Carians:
Thucyclides wrote-
"Minos made himself master of a very great part of what is now called the Hellenic Sea, and became lord of the Cyclades and a colonizer of most of them, DRIVING OUT THE CARIANS and establishing his own sons in them as governors. Piracy, too, he tried to clear from the sea, as far as he could, desiring that revenues should come to him more readily."

Thus the Carians originated in the Cyclades, and were actually driven out by the Minoans.

I know about the thirty tyrants and I know that it did not last for very long.

BTW, do yuo happen to know in what city Thucyclides lived?

Thucydides was born and lived in Athens though he was exiled for a good many years.