There are a lot of these rhectorical questions. "What if America lost the Revolution?" "What if Napolean had stay won at Waterloo?" "What if I had not eaten that last doughnut?" etc.

Well, out of curiosity, what, in your opinion, is the greatest 'What if' question in history?

What if... the flush toilet wasn't invented? :eek: :p

No doubt this thread will soon be full of:-
* "If Hitler had won his war, then...."
* "If Napoleon had won his war, then...."
* "If Alexander hadn't died at the age of 33, then...."
And so on.

However, I think that the GREATEST What If is the following....

....do you realise that the world we live in today was created in only a quarter of an hour?
No, I am not being religious.
I am talking about the 20 kilometre lump of rock that struck the earth 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs.
If that asteroid had been a mere 15 minutes earlier or later in it's orbit, then it would have missed the earth altogether!

It makes you think that with another roll of the dice we wouldn't even be here. ;)

Kryten,
That was the one 'what if' that i had in mind.

I couldn't have put it better though.

What if that puddle of "primordeal goo" had arranged itself to become Richard Simmons instead of a single-celled life form?
Alternatively....
What if God had thought "create beings after my own likeness? Hmmm...nah, not such a hot idea."?

What if all of the time spent on leisure and eating and spamming internet forums were put to use advancing the career, exercising, and socializing with live humans?

My wife asks all the time...

What if people stopped asking what if?

This (http://members.aol.com/althist2/apr00/napoleon1.htm) is the greatest what if in history. :D

What if the Golan Heights had fallen during the first major push from the east? This leads to the larger question, What if Isreal had been destroyed by the Arab coalition?

This is IMO the most significant single event of the 20th Century. In retrospect, the Six Day War was extremely onesided. Without the strategic heights from an early point in the battle, the outcome might have been very different. I submit that the entire thrust of the last third of the 20th Century and into the present day changes radically if Israel is removed or greatly reduced.

Originally posted by Kryten
....do you realise that the world we live in today was created in only a quarter of an hour?
No, I am not being religious.
I am talking about the 20 kilometre lump of rock that struck the earth 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs.
If that asteroid had been a mere 15 minutes earlier or later in it's orbit, then it would have missed the earth altogether!

It makes you think that with another roll of the dice we wouldn't even be here. ;) Could you get a site on that? I thought that the dragon killer was discredited. None the less, you have a point. There is evidence of a crater several miles across in the Ucatan peninsula.

Someone wrote a SF story where the world was change radically because a time travelor stepped on a bug, which started a widening stream of changes, diverging from the Paleazoic era, so that the present was unrecognizable.

J

What if the Persians had won the battle of Salamis?

Here are a few. Some are a little more plausible than others.
What if the Mongul army had not stopped its conquest on news of the death of the Khan?
What if the Chinese had invented mortars in addition to gunpowder?
What if Elizabeth I had been executed and The Duke of Norfolk had become king?
What if the Medituranian basin had never flooded, so that Europe and Africa were one continent?
What if there were a modern landbridge between Europe and North America?
What if Mohammed were a Christian reformer/heretic?
What if the North pole was not icecapped?
What if Carthage had discovered South America?

J

What if that puddle of "primordeal goo" had arranged itself to become Richard Simmons instead of a single-celled life form?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

What if Carthage had discovered South America?

Who says they didnt?, no history book even adresses the topic, and there is some evidence to support it...

What if cheese was never invented?

What if the first person to go up to a cow and decide "I'm going to squeeze these dangly bits and drink whatever comes out" changed his mind?

What if the primordial goo created Richard Simmons instead of single-celled organisms - it is a thought too scary to comprehend.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
What if the primordial goo created Richard Simmons instead of single-celled organisms - it is a thought too scary to comprehend. Pray tell - who, or what, is Richard Simmons? :confused:

He is some old, gay, hippy guy with some sort of an afro and is REALLY weird and scary

What if Jesus had been a girl?

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
He is some old, gay, hippy guy with some sort of an afro and is REALLY weird and scary No fair! You looked in the dictionary. :)

What if no one ever invented the wheel?

What if France had not supported the United States in the American Revolution?

"No fair! You looked in the dictionary."

lol :lol: :D

Originally posted by Xen
What if Carthage had discovered South America?

Who says they didnt?, no history book even adresses the topic, and there is some evidence to support it... I say they didnt. Carthage would have colonized. They badly needed new resources.

J

what if people would stop to accept any kind of hirarchy?

The most famus what if i hisstory is: What if the roman empire didn't fall? I have seen this alot.

What if Newton had eaten the apple that fell on his head and not thought about why??;)

What if the West Discovered the East?

What if the British in North America had been given representation in Westminster like they wanted? A modern British superstate would never have allowed for the world wars, multiculturalism or even international terrorism. Perhaps we would still be on an imperial footing today- would Nuclear weapons ever have been conceived?

What if Scipio had been killed at Cannae? Or, alternatively, what if Hannibal wins at Zama?

Another: What if the Tu-Sing (China, mid 19th cent) Rebellion had succeeded?

Can't believe these two BIG ones that not been posted yet:

1. Columbus! What if Columbus had discovered North America first and Spain colonized the present US instead of Central-South America?? We might all be speaking spanish today! The whole history of the world might have changed!

I remember reading that Columbus was actually on course to reach Florida, but after seeing a flock of seagulls, he changed course and headed toward the Carribbean.

2. What if Hitler had died BEFORE he ever became Fuhrur??

Many opportunities for this to happen: World War I. Beer Hall Putch. Heck, in his campaigns around Germany in 33, he was one of the first politicians to fly around the country in planes. Hey, politicians today sometimes die in plane crashes (ie Wellstone), the risk factor in the 1930s must surely have been much higher...
And I think its from John Toland's biography of Hitler, in which he told a story over how a Hitler opponent was going to shoot him while he made a speech, but went to the bathroom just before, and then someone had locked the door by mistake before he could get back in!


Think over how much is in question if Hitler dies!! WWII? The Cold War? The creation of Isreal? The lives of some , what? 40 million people or so? The Warsaw Pact? The discovery or at least the use of two nuclear missiles in Japan? Pearl Harbor? Would Japan have been as aggressive without a powerful German ally?

And would Germany, not the US be the first to discovery the hydrogen bomb? Would Einstein and the other German scientists used in the Manhattan project have ever left Germany?

But just getting back to the what ifs, if my memory is correct, how hilarious is it that the history of the world was changed by a flock of seagulls and a man that had to use the toilet??

:p

What if Isabella had said "No."?

One of my personal favorites is Germany accepting Great Britain's alliance overtures in the 1900-1904-ish period, instead of letting Wilhelm II shoot off his mouth at cousin Edward a few times too many. WWI would have reallllly rearranged Europe if the lineup had been Germany+Great Britain vs Russia+France.

what if al gore hadn't discovered the internet we couldn't have this talk!

@ Siegmund
Or what if Britain had agreed to alliance when Herr visited to propose it? Britain + Germany + Japan + Italy + maybe even USA against France + USSR + China

connected with the "what if" is the "why not"...
some things are silly. that rock hit the earth and killed the dinosaurs. columbus discovered america. etc. its easy to say why these things happened.
i consider things more interesitng which are hidden in the dark but near in time.
what if the west discovered the east is quite interesting. their is a terry pratchet novelle where that happened: vikings and americans mixed, founded an empire around the lakes and destroyed the european fleets with their armada (armed with cannons and muskets) in the battle of gibralar somewhat around 1300ad.
now you can ask why that didnt happen.
the asteroid followed the laws of physics thats simple and boring...

Originally posted by pandora
connected with the "what if" is the "why not"...
some things are silly. that rock hit the earth and killed the dinosaurs. columbus discovered america. etc. its easy to say why....

....the asteroid followed the laws of physics thats simple and boring...

....and if it had been 15 minutes earlier or later, then the whole of the last 65 million years (and all the species inhabiting the earth today) would be different.
So the human race is only here because of luck.
That seems to me to fit the question "Greatest 'What if' in History".
(Anyway, I don't find physics boring.
Confusing sometimes, but not boring. :crazyeye: )

However, I must admit....it is a bit of a 'party stopper'.

The problem is....everything else is just fantasy.
We can all speculate about "suppose such-'n-such hadn't been born, or if you-know-who hadn't died, or if them-over-there hadn't lost a certain battle".
But speculation about WW1 or WW2 is pointless if Western Civilization had not existed, perhaps because they were crushed by the Mongols, or perhaps because the Roman Empire didn't fall.
And speculation about the Romans is pointless if Alexander the Great had conquered the west as well as the east.
So the further back in time we go, the more important the What If becomes, because it alters everything else that comes after.
But these seem to me to be minor in comparison to the fact that the human race, and all the primates, and almost EVERY species of mammal, wouldn't be here today if that lump of rock had missed! :eek:
No humans = no history
(And the history of THIS world is the only one I know. ;) )

Nonetheless, I will try and get into the spirit of things.

I have not read the Terry Pratchet novel you are referring to (could you tell us it's name?), but I think it is very unlikely a 'Viking-Indian' Canadian empire would develop gunpowder.
Europeans only got it because of the Arabs, who got it from the Chinese.
And I doubt that even the Vikings could have crossed the Pacific Ocean to get to China.
They only got to America by making relatively short hops from Iceland to Greenland to Newfoundland.
So how and why would they develop gunpowder? :confused:

"strata" was the book. but the thing i mentioned is only a sidetopic . you have to know if you like pratchetts style if you wanna know its worth reading.

what i wanted to say is that i like to discuss the what ifs (especially at parties :D ), but find those more interesting which cannot be said why not.
the rock did not miss. done.
why didnt that mixture tribe form. why should they not become supercurious and inverntive?

edit: but physics can be funny ,yes.
i often ask myself if we are not blind for a quite simple trick of physics. perhabs we can controll time and simply do not know why. perhabs time travel is possible , perhabs without any divice and we just dont know why ,like an ant does not know how to jump.
perhabs our whole maths and physics are totally vain in the case of space and time. perhabs 1,2,3 just arent the right numbers and there is an idea as simple as the 0 at the top of our noses ,that would allow us to dissapear or turn pink :crazyeye:

Originally posted by pandora
[what i wanted to say is that i like to discuss the what ifs (especially at parties :D ), but find those more interesting which cannot be said why not.
the rock did not miss. done.


Very well....
Alexander the Great died at the age of 32, so didn't conquer the west. Done.
The Western half of the Roman Empire fell in the 6th century AD. Done.
Europeans conquered America, then rebelled and became independent. Done.
Napoleon and Hitler were defeated. Done.
(You can't have it both ways! :lol: )

And the problem with physics is....IT CAN BE PROVED, both mathematically and experimentally.
Oh, sometimes they make mistakes, or only get it half right.
Newton's Law of Gravitation is not wrong for example, but doesn’t work right near light speed.
So Einstein added an amendment; Relativity.
But even he couldn't tie in relativity with quantum mechanics.
One day someone will....but that doesn't mean that Newton was wrong.
His theory was and is still right....as far as it goes.

(I am dangerously close to being off topic here!)

Rapidly getting back to the What Ifs of history....
....I do see your point.
I admit that it is fun to speculate about the complex SOCIAL what ifs of human society.

Why didn't the Chinese make better use of their technological superiority?
Would we be more technologically advanced today if the Christian Church had not crushed intellectual free thought for as long as it did in the Middle Ages?
That sort of thing.

But winning a certain battle, or someone living longer than they actually did, or asteroids hitting the earth, are all examples of LUCK.
Roll the dice again, and the outcome would be different. :)

Originally posted by Serutan
Another: What if the Tu-Sing (China, mid 19th cent) Rebellion had succeeded? I believe you're referring to the Taiping rebellion; by those pseudo-Christians. ;)

Don't know of any Tu-Sing rebellions...

Some of the greatest:

What would happen if Guam became a super power?
What if Hitler never proaganized in Germany?
What if the Internet was invited in the middle ages?
"What if homer never existied?
What if America never joined ww1?

And others, but we could go on, its late though and im sleepy, ill have more tomrrow!

Originally posted by Kryten
f that asteroid had been a mere 15 minutes earlier or later in it's orbit, then it would have missed the earth altogether!

Except that the were hundred or thousand of times large near earth asteroied did miss for every one that hit. With a numbr of large bodies crossing the earths orbit, its just a matter of time and probability. They are going to hit sooner or later. Hopefully we have by now substantialy exhuasted the supply or really big ones.

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
... Hopefully we have by now substantialy exhuasted the supply or really big ones.
It is believed that the moon was created when an object the size of Mars hit proto-Earth. Without this, the Earth would be smaller and would have less heavy elements and less atmosphere.

So what if the proto-Moon had not hit proto-Earth? Would Earth now look the same as Mars does?

What if Churchill had accepted Hitler's overture for peace and friendship?

Indeed VBNP. Or better still what if people had woken up to the insidious nature of facism before it corrupted Europe.

What if Julius Caeser had settled in for a nice career as a candle stick maker (or whatever)?
Would someone else have done what Caeser did anyway? Would we talk of the Roman Pompeys? Crassii? Would there have been a Roman Empire? France? Britain? What of Cleopatra in this scenario? Would she have become aggressive? Would the Jews have been expelled from Isreal? Would Jesus have preached? Would technology have advanced in the west?
One variable changes everything.

Originally posted by Furius
One variable changes everything.
Quite, and the earlier in time, the greater the change. What if that first goody hut I popped on the fertile grounds just north of my capital, had given me a settler instead of the barbarians who killed my whole army?

Back OT:
what if William and Mary had decided to unite their countries? William was Dutch import, and Holland was on the brink of its Golden Age. They wouldn't have spent all their resources on the six wars, but put them to better use. The combined country might have been strong enough to quell the revolutionaries in the New World.

"The fool can ask questions that no wise man can answer."

Originally posted by Frisian Warrior

what if William and Mary had decided to unite their countries? William was Dutch import, and Holland was on the brink of its Golden Age. They wouldn't have spent all their resources on the six wars, but put them to better use. The combined country might have been strong enough to quell the revolutionaries in the New World.

I don't quite follow you. The main Anglo-Dutch wars (btw, I make it three, not six) were over by 1674. William and Mary took over as British monarchs in 1688.

Any damage done by those wars was therefore already done by the time a union became an option. In any case, Britain and the United Provinces then became allies for a hundred years (without need for a "what if").

The later unpleasantness between Holland and Britain that culminated in the battle of Camperdown in 1797 was essentially an Anglo-French conflict: the Dutch fleet of de Winter belonged to the "Batavian Republic", a French puppet-state made up when revolutionary France annexed the United Provinces.

Given the spectacular early successes of the revolutionary armies and the UK's traditionally low spend on land forces, the French would probably have been able to annex the Low Countries even if they were formally part of a "United Kingdom and Provinces".

A 1688 union between the Dutch and the British, while a fascinating and perhaps tempting concept, doesn't in my view offer a pivotal "what if" opportunity - it simply wouldn't have made enough difference.

Welcome back Illustrious! :)

I'm probably setting myself up for a serious lecturing in history but... doesn't the above coincide with the Glorious Revolution in which the monarchy had it's powers greatly reduced?

Thus, I ask, could William have united his realms or was he powerless to do so? And another thing, why do the Orange Marchers in N.Ireland carry the banner of a British King?

Seems to me to be as logical as a Scotsman crying for independence when the act of unity was achieved by a King James of Scotland.

Originally posted by stormbind
Welcome back Illustrious! :)

I'm probably setting myself up for a serious lecturing in history but... doesn't the above coincide with the Glorious Revolution in which the monarchy had it's powers greatly reduced?

Thus, I ask, could William have united his realms or was he powerless to do so?

A very good point. Yes, 1688 was the so-called "Glorious Revolution", and William & Mary were only invited to take on the throne under somewhat restrictive conditions. William's power in the UP wasn't exactly absolutist, either, so I share your doubts as to whether a union on purely monarchic terms would ever have been a feasible option.

And another thing, why do the Orange Marchers in N.Ireland carry the banner of a British King?

Because they are the descendants (both physical and spiritual) of the Protestant English settlers who supported the Protestant William against the claims of the Catholic James II. Most of the "native" Irish (use of inverted commas because, like all of the British Isles, the original ethnic position is far more complex) were Catholics and therefore religiously opposed to William.

Of course, it is also valid to point out that Northern Ireland is still part of the UK, so support for a British king isn't entirely an oxymoron. Needless to say, the Loyal Orange order has few members in the Republic!!

Seems to me to be as logical as a Scotsman crying for independence when the act of unity was achieved by a King James of Scotland.

Not to mention the fact that the Scots dominate the Westminster parliament and are net cash beneficiaries of the Union.... ;) Still, there's no accounting for folk...

One question I've asked myself at a boring suppertable was, if it was influental to the fall of the Roman empire, if a senator, let's call him Marcus Crispus Appius, hadn't accidentally breathed the gas a guy sitting in front of him in the senatus farted into his face. Marcus didn't have a strong health and died of this two days later. Had he lived, he would have been the grand-grand-granddaddy of the person who'd later become emperor and save the empire...

What if the Christians had lost the Battle of Tours in 732 AD and the Muslims went on to conquer Europe?

Originally posted by naervod
What if the Christians had lost the Battle of Tours in 732 AD and the Muslims went on to conquer Europe?

We would have had flushing toilets sooner and spoken Arabic which would have been interesting.

What If...Hitler had died on October 31st 1914.

During the attacks around Ypres in late 1914, the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment broke through British lines, only for a scraped-together reserve consisting mainly of the 2nd Worcesters to drive them back while they were awaiting their next orders.

One Pte Adolf Hitler had entered combat with the 16th Bavarians 2 days previously and was presumably amongst those who were driven back. How close did he come to being killed that day, I wonder?

This is taken from a book of What-Ifs by Robert Cowley; it seemed a nice simple one

i think a good What if is if Germany won the spring offensive of 1918. By this time it was reeling due the naval blockade and could not enforce a strict peace. America would not have fought and Hilter could not rise to power playing on Germanys defeat in WW1

What if the Great Library had not been destroyed?

What if John Lenneon never met Paul Mc Cartney?

I think this thread has served its purpose, and has long ceased to add any value to the History forum... Closed.