I have been using SkankyBurns's Easy to spot Resources (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=15022) for months now. It has smiley faces that peek through the fog of war, but it does not modify bonus resource graphics. Is this banned too?

DaveMcW,

I think it would be banned because you can see the smiley faces through the fog of war. Defending on which angle you are looking at...For example, if the fog tile is on the left, it wouldn't make no different; however, if the fog tile is on the right, you could see the the corner of the smiley face; therefore, you know that there is a resource bonnus at that particular tile while you can't possibly see with the original Firaxis graphics.

The problem becomes that some of these graphics mods are doing good things in helping to make the resources more visible on a revealed map but that they are implemented by players who may not have sufficient game play knowledge to understand that they create a cheat condition that really is unnecessary and just caused by inattention to detail.

Dave, I think that if you can define a diamond shape overlay that would fit into the resources.pcx box shapes to define the allowable visibility limits then most of the graphics mod gutys would be able to fit within those limits. The Shankyburns graphics are a great example where the illegal blips could be resized just a few pixels and moved downward and then the balance would be returned to the process.

The real solution is to have Firaxis implement an alpha display mask that limits the cheat display range of the resource graphics to fit the diamond shaped grid layout. (this probably will not get much priority in light of other issues.)

Originally posted by cracker
The problem becomes that some of these graphics mods are doing good things in helping to make the resources more visible on a revealed map but that they are implemented by players who may not have sufficient game play knowledge to understand that they create a cheat condition that really is unnecessary and just caused by inattention to detail.

Then I guess all of us are guilty of not paying attention to detail, since this has been going on for so long. I guess all of us don't have sufficient game play knowledge.:p

Dave, I think that if you can define a diamond shape overlay that would fit into the resources.pcx box shapes to define the allowable visibility limits then most of the graphics mod gutys would be able to fit within those limits. The Shankyburns graphics are a great example where the illegal blips could be resized just a few pixels and moved downward and then the balance would be returned to the process.

Well, considering that the game's default graphics for some of the resources has a few pixels sticking out from the fog of war already, I think it would require a massive reduction in size.

Alright, I'll see if I can move the smilies down. Is it ok to have strategic resources peek through the fog?

Well, I have never used any terrain graphic mods. So far, I'm using the civ2 railroad style (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14987) and the larger (15x15) Smiley Mood Badges (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10197), I hope those two are ok.

Yes, Moonsinger, those are ok because neither of those 2 graphic modpacks allow you any strategic advantage whatsoever, except for not having to hover your cursor over every citizen to see if he is happy or not. I really wish they would have implemented the smiley mood badges as the game's default graphics.

Originally posted by DaveMcW
Alright, I'll see if I can move the smilies down. Is it ok to have strategic resources peek through the fog?
If the Firaxis Gods left them peeking out then so let it be written, so let it be done.

In the past, I have been able to detect the standard wheat graphic by carefully looking at things in starting positions and this effect was even shown in the "Improving Your Opening play sequences" article. The xploit comes in when the graphics get excessive as in several of the current examples that have emerged and gone over the reasonable limit.

The baseline graphics icons for any of these choices can be from the PTW or the Civ3v1.29 resouces.pcx without creating a copyright conflict because ultimately the graphics mod is to counteract the effects of an exploit bug that was not foreseen in the game implementation.

Cool! Thanks Bamspeedy.:) I really love those smiley mood badges.:love:

Have I completely missunderstood this, can't you just RMB over the square with the fog and select to display/view terrain type and then you get to know what is under the fog anyway. That one will be somewhat hard to get rid of won't it?

Originally posted by flexo
Have I completely missunderstood this, can't you just RMB over the square with the fog and select to display/view terrain type and then you get to know what is under the fog anyway. That one will be somewhat hard to get rid of won't it?

Fog = the unmasked square or the unexplore land. If you right click over those squares, it would simply say "No information available"; therefore, you can't select the display/view terrain information option.

I made a resources.pcx overlay (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/FogOfWar_Resources_Overlay1.pcx) from the 3 darkest colors in FogOfWar.pcx. This provides a pretty accurate measurement of what is visible in the fog.

Here it is applied it to various resource mods.
Clockwise from top left: Firaxis's, Harlan's, Dr Alimentado's, SkankyBurns's

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcetest.jpg

Edit: changed the fog radius from 4 to 3

Thanks for your efforts Dave. This has been one of those issues we have sort of known about but just not gotten to yet.

What we will do for the next Gotm20-Spain is to close this loophole in the game features to make sure that all players have equal access to the resource information and hopefully without having to just alter the gameplay and give up on the game concepts related to resource locations beyond the edge of the FOW.

This is bad. :(

A clear consequence of not publishing any rules for the GOTM, as some of us have been begging you to do for a long time already.

Now we have a frequent prize winner who has been playing all this time with an advantage over the other participants.

I see a lof of "star" players are spooked by this "no mod pack" rule. OK, I can understand you are all highly motivated to play these games a) to the best of your considerable ability and b) within a set of rules that offers a level playing field.

As a new player, it matters not a fig to me who won previous games or why. I could spot some kind of bonus from the start tile in GOTM19 - as it turned out, it was an accidental red herring.

OK, so the playing field has shifted slightly. I honestly can't see it making a major difference to future games. As for the current one, well, I should have worked through Cracker's excellent tutorials before starting any GOTM. I've got no one to blame but my own arrogant self.

Let's try to keep some perspective, please?

Originally posted by Ribannah
A clear consequence of not publishing any rules for the GOTM, as some of us have been begging you to do for a long time already.

Since this is pretty much a new exploit and most of us aren't aware of it until now, Cracker can't really publish something that he doesn't know.;) Of course, now that we all know about it, I'm sure no one would use those graphics in the next game.:)


Now we have a frequent prize winner who has been playing all this time with an advantage over the other participants.
Actually, I don't think any "star" player has taken advantage of this exploit. IMO, after we discover Map Making, the fog of war isn't that big of a deal. If we want to know what is hidden in a certain region, we can just simply trade the map with the AIs. Therefore, I don't think anyone would gain any benefit by checking the tiles with a magnify glass.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Now we have a frequent prize winner who has been playing all this time with an advantage over the other participants.
Ribbannah, it was not that bad until the new cheat pack was released on the 3rd of this month after the Gotm18 was already in progress.

I have been aware of the slight left handed advantage of skanky-spanky graphics but have just not considered it a significant exploit that has not been addressed by map layout issues that you may not have just not picked up on.

The real exploit is the new double whammy bogus graphics that pushed out the exposure in both the NW and NE directions. The addirtion if the bonus food, shields, and gold icons look coll at first glance to novice players but are almost istantly a nuisance because the food, shield, and gold output is altered by terraforming and government status. Clearly these new graphics represent a game altering cheat while the old graphics where on the edge. The new graphics pack is just too much and gains some of its emotional support directly from the expanded cheat factor that reveals the resources from under the fog when they should not be exposed.

The bug/exploit report to Firaxis asks them to suppress the display of all resource icons and map overlays of any type using the same software flag that is used to to determine if the FOW graphics should be displayed. Firaxis can do this and set a flag in the scenario properties that allows the feature to be engaged or suppressed in any preconfigured game. The default status request will be to suppress these displays so that all you will see in the intended terrain and FOW view.

You have to look at the game profiles before playing Henny Penny and screaming that the sky is falling. You cannot reasonably look at the start positions in recent games and say that Dave or any other player had a functional advantage.

My perspective of the game review is that up to now the graphics were a nuisance but now the cat is out of the bag and we will need to waste some resources (human type) to make sure that we can continue to have a high level of confidence in the game processes in addition to relying on the continued honor and integrity that most of the high level players have demonstrated.

I would like to not have to have the perception that you are the volunteer keeper of the moral compass. We do have rules and standards of play even if you do not feel they adequately cover every legal alternative. We have been very proactive in identifying and addressing new exploit issues that emerge.

It is unfortunate that these issues seem to arise where we find new non-players that develop new ways to exploit and downgrade the game play process, but we adapt and I can assure you that the games will still be fun and interesting. I can also assure you that you will always be able to find something you do not like, but we hope you won't spend most your time in that area or search since there are lots of positive issues to focus on.

As I indicated, prior to May 3rd this was mostly a non issue. Effective with Gotm20 we will implement an in-game solution that substantially eliminates these features from the potential issues column.

This will mean that the bypass will reduce the ability of players to use resource graphics of their own choice in the GOTM games and other semi-competitive game events. This is an unfortunate consequence of the unintentional but perhaps poorly thoughtout choices made by a few individuals who are mostly external to the functional gaming community.

It just got worse. :(

The addirtion if the bonus food, shields, and gold icons look coll at first glance to novice players but are almost istantly a nuisance because the food, shield, and gold output is altered by terraforming and government status.The mod to which you refer (by DrAlimentado) is useful. Your opinion is just that. This appears like a poor attempt to slander the mod creator and anyone who likes the mod, on your own ground.

Remember the mod was never made for GOTM, and yet you have still taken personal offense to it.
Clearly these new graphics represent a game altering cheat while the old graphics where on the edge.That simply isn't true now is it? With skank's mod you could see the top left corner if you looked closely, many people use this mod and post screen pics with this mod in the threads here. With DrAlimentado's mod you can see it also in the top right. Not exacly the world of difference is there?
The new graphics pack is just too much and gains some of its emotional support directly from the expanded cheat factor that reveals the resources from under the fog when they should not be exposed.You refer to the creator's thread in the customisation forum. From your remarks you are explicitly saying that at least one of the following people are only supporting this because it's a cheat:

Dr Alimentado
Bamspeedy
Cartouche Bee
anarres

I would like to know exactly what it is you are saying here please. The four listed people are the only people to raise any kind of issue with you in that thread or to say more than "well done" or something similar.
It is unfortunate that these issues seem to arise where we find new non-players that develop new ways to exploit and downgrade the game play process...Please, this is plain offensive. It's simply slanderous. You consider it an exploit and you consider it a "downgrade [of] the game play process". You are giving an opinion like it is fact, and belittling people who have disagreed with you in another forum.

I find your remarks offense and without substance, and if I was being skeptical I would see this as a thinly veiled attempt to make either DrAlimentado or myself post in this forum so you could ban us. I really don't want a ban, but I have principals. If you are going to openly slander me or DrAlimentado in your forum (even if you veil it well) I will respond to it.

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Since this is pretty much a new exploit and most of us aren't aware of it until now, Cracker can't really publish something that he doesn't know.;) Of course, now that we all know about it, I'm sure no one would use those graphics in the next game.:)
That is why their should be a general rule saying:

No Mods Unless Explicitly Allowed

instead of silently allowing some participants to use exploits at will until 'the cat is out of the bag'.

Actually, I don't think any "star" player has taken advantage of this exploit. IMO, after we discover Map Making, the fog of war isn't that big of a deal.
I'm sorry Moonsinger, but you should really think this over. The opening stage is critical. If someone can see where the nearby good tiles are before other players can that is very significant.

Surely someone who heavily depends on having the best possible start (in contrast to the 'milkers') knows this very well.

As I already wrote on the General Forum before I knew that someone was actually using it for the GOTM, using this particular exploit is cheating. There is no other word for it.

Originally posted by anarres
...Please, this is plain offensive. It's simply slanderous... [/B]

It may be offensive - but it is not slanderous.

Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word.

Unfortunately, both forms of defamation require the injured party - yourself - to be identified by name.

As anarres is not a full name, Bamspeedy has been guilty of neither.

EDIT Offensive stuff deleted due to a guilty conscience

Anarres,

I consider the subject of whether the DrAlimentado graphic mod is a cheat or not to be a closed subject. I have carefully looked at it and determined that it is a cheat. It does not really matter much if you think it is acceptable because it is banned from use in the games.

It is definitely a cheat that exposes 75% more than an extra chance of unfair visibility of the resource.

The origin of the cheat is accidental but in some ways is based on inexperience to understand that inserting more graphics elements that artificially reveal the resources truly is disruptive and unfair. The extra cheat factors that have been added are graphic symbols that could also confuse the representation of the productivity of the resource squares and including them in the graphics the way they are currently presented carries with it more negative impact that can possibly be offset by the "coolness" value.

It really does reduce the requirement for strategic thought and risk taking in any game where it is used and it is unbalancing to have every player feel that they would be virtually required to use this sort of exploit just to play in a game.

One thing I have been impressed about, the GOTM community seems to be a pretty classy group. Not a lot of crap in the forums.

People who can disagree without being disagreeable. Let us all seek the better part of our nature and share that.

I thank Mr. Cracker for the work he does on GOTM.

I recently decided to a graphic mod of this nature for this very purpose, after seeing that other mod I tried it out and while the food and shields I could do without I liked the faces and the visibility of the other stuff, but at the same time I disliked the impartial view I was getting with the FOW. Likely for the same reasons you think its a cheat.

So what is the fix going to be, is Dave's post on the edges of fog acceptable? Does that contain the images? I haven't looked into it yet, but I had the same idea in mind. It does seem odd that this is possible, especially for PTW where multiplayer cheats should be taken more seriously.

I really doing this because I don't like the specific smilies they used. Much like the happy face mod I made a couple years ago.

Originally posted by Ribannah
I'm sorry Moonsinger, but you should really think this over. The opening stage is critical. If someone can see where the nearby good tiles are before other players can that is very significant.

I agree with you that the opening stage is critical, but if you take the wrong turn, you would still have at least another 200 turns to correct your mistake. The opening move is very important, but it is not the only thing that secures the final victory. I think after the first dozen turns, they can't really cheat much with those graphic mods.

Surely someone who heavily depends on having the best possible start (in contrast to the 'milkers') knows this very well.

I take that as a compliment!:) We milkers are not too bad after all.:) Not only that our herds are happy, we usually are very easy going as well.;)

As I already wrote on the General Forum before I knew that someone was actually using it for the GOTM, using this particular exploit is cheating. There is no other word for it.

I concur. However, I believe that we should treat them as innocent until proving guilty. May be the cheating wasn't intentional. May be they weren't aware of the "unwritten" rule until now.

I agree with you Moonsinger. Pointing fingers and shouting a lot is not going to improve the GOTM for anyone. I can understand people being disappointed or upset. But rude posts or accusing posts or denial posts or any other sort of negative post isn't going to help the GOTM.

CruddyLeper,

I have tried without shouting for six months, to no avail. So have others.

After Cracker's response I fear that this is only the top of the iceberg, too.

We are here to try and learn how to improve our game. If in this place what we learn is that we must use exploits and cheats to do well, and that this is fully allowed until you are caught, upon which no punishment or correction follows, this kills the entire purpose of the GOTM. :(

IMHO, none of the top players have used graphic mods with the intent to cheat. As the issue is now widely discussed, their are a number of alternatives:[list=1] Atari (formerly Firaxis) implements a blocker
the gotm stuff tries to design games in a way that the cheats don't give any significant advantage
those who cheat best get an advantage
mods giving an advantage are banned.
[/list=1] 1. will not happen anytime soon;
2. creates another burden and may lead to less enjoyable games;
3. cannot be prevented;
4. is my solution of choice.

How to implement it is another issue. There may e.g. be a list of allowed mods ( I myself now use colored mood smileys on citizens and they help a lot without cheating, I suppose).

But I think this is not an issue to get really agitated about. Let's stay civilized "sine ira et studio" as Caesar might have said.

i find it funny that you seem to think that some gfx mods are cheating, but some arnt? If the gfx mod uses the tile size then how can it be cheating?

ok, so you can spot them easyer, but these "happy mood" faces allow you to spot there moods easyer, isnt that cheating too by your theory?

So now we all have to downgrade to Civ3's orignal crappy gfx?

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
It may be offensive - but it is not slanderous.

Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word.

Unfortunately, both forms of defamation require the injured party - yourself - to be identified by name.

As anarres is not a full name, Bamspeedy has been guilty of neither.

Your profile says "anarchist". Your complaint suggests this is not the case. I don’t feel that this was either the time or place for this. Quite apart from the glaring inaccuracies within your post, I don’t believe that Anarres was using the term ‘slander’ as a prelude to some action in tort; nor do I believe that you considered this to be the case. Accusing someone of cheating (whether directly or indirectly) is a serious matter in a forum that is both competitive and dear to the alleged cheat. Don’t belittle this.

Libel refers to defamation in a permanent form and thus would include broadcasts and recordings, this forum obviously comes under this head. Furthermore parties need not be identified by name, it is enough that the statement was capable of referring to them (a matter of law) and that a reasonable person would understand it as referring to him. Anarres may not be a specific name, but this is of no consequence.

As regards using this mod to ‘cheat’. I entirely agree that it seems to give an unfair advantage. I can’t say that I’ve ever used it, but if someone intended to cheat then there are far better ways. Surely this imparts a far lesser advantage that someone who reads a spoiler thread or opens the map in an editor program. In my opinion labelling it a ‘cheat’ simply hurts peoples feelings and rightly so. However I doubt that this was intentionally done.

In competitive gaming people will always push the boundaries of legality and I think that this is entirely reasonable. No one would argue that using the combat calculator was ‘cheating’ and yet this too imparts a significant advantage over someone who doesn’t bother to work out his calculations. It is up to the organisers to decide where the line falls between cheating and merely competitive advantage. Banning such packs seems perfectly reasonable and this issue seems to have been blown up beyond all reasonable proportions. It would have been far better to merely state that they were no longer allowed, rather than throwing around such potentially hurtful language.

To me, the 'palace jump' looks like a far bigger exploit than any resource graphic mod. Although it requires more strategizing, the economic benefits of using it for an instant second core are to my mind far bigger than the placement of your first city could ever be.

{fist banging demand message removed}
Anarres, you are not the editor du jour and your opinon here is clearly in conflict with the policy I have set forth regarding the use of graphics that either accidentally or on purpose introduce cheats into the game.

Most if not all of this post properly belonged in a PrivateMessage if your intent was to accomplish anything other than cause disruption and draw negative attention to yourself. This is the last time I will need to intervene to counteract you rabblerousing in direct conflict with the policies that I feel are necessary. Lets move on. The cheat graphics are out. Do not post another post in this tone in any public forum. There is no argument and your role in the issue is closed.

@ Jack: What do you mean? An ordinary palace jump, by GL or hand-build new palace or the "Free palace Jump"?
IMHO there's nothing wrong with the first and although I'd probably never use the second, I also have no real objections to it, but I do consider it somewhat of an exploit....

@Darkness: I cannot speak for Jack but I think he is talking about the "free jump" by building a FP right next store to your palace and then Manipulating Population with workers etc. you get 2 instant cores. Using a leader to move the palace later doesn't "exploit" the mechanism on how a palace is moved. I understand the argument that is does take planning, workers etc. but some how it just feels like you are using the weakness of the system on how a new palace city is determined to get something for nothing. Using a leader requires a bit of luck and a hand build at least requires some shields. A free jump doesn't require anything more than a bunch of workers and an understanding of a broken system.

I mean the free palace jump where you disband your capital -
too much tricking of the game mechanics if you ask me.

On edit, Hotrod explains my objections much better than I did. thanks :)

anarres-Cracker may have been referring to me. He is wrong, but I can see where he may have thought that I was supporting the modpack because of the 'cheat'.

In the first spoiler thread (page 3), I posted some screenshots comparing what was able to be seen. I had said that I would use the modpack in future games because a certain resource was *more* visible than the default graphics. Someone said they could see the resource, but if they used default graphics, you could only see a few pixels of it, so it was very difficult to see (but not impossible). I said I would use the graphics in the future to see them easier instead of bringing out my magnifying glass (and before they were declared a cheat). I had only considered that resource, and not others where it is impossible to see without the enchanced graphics.

I posted the link to that thread to make others aware of it, because I didn't feel it was right for me (and a few others) to use it and others not knowing about it. I was thinking others could benefit from it, so they too, wouldn't have to bring out their magnifying glass. I was trying to be helpful, just like when I alert people to the 'mood badges'.

Now for the graphic modpacks thread-I was supporting the mod in that thread, because I felt players should have the right to do what they want and use whatever graphics they want in personal games or games where everyone is aware of that modpack. The graphic modpack (and all other mods), aim for an intended audience, usually for solo-game players. And in solo games (non-competitive) there really isn't any 'cheats', IMO. Cracker did over-react and imply that the graphics were intentionally geared for people looking for a cheat in competitive games. I was not supporting it because I was supporting cheating like Cracker thinks.

Bamspeedy, just to make it clear, I was not intending to imply that you where advocating using the graphics for cheating.

If I had been more attentive to things in the early stages I would have followed up on your post about the extra leaky wheat visibility. I apologize for being distracted by other tasks and semi asleep at the wheel.

Your perspective was actually right on in this case in that the newest round of mod graphics really did introduce an unfair competitive advantage that would essentially and unfairly force every player to switch to the mod graphics PLUS would have significantly changed game play and strategy.

By definition Graphics Mods should be things that change the graphics and appearance features without actively changing game play. Changing the color of "wheat" to make it easier to legitimately see against plains or floodplain is not the same as changing the appearance of wheat to make it artificially visible from all the surrounding terrain squares when it should not be. The problem is that there is a gray area of transition that exists when the content of the graphics mods need to pass some minimum standards that this modification clearly fails.

Adding the blips to legitimately make resources harder to visually miss on the map is a good thing and this incident just forces us to incorporate this feature into the games as we move to actively suppress the exploit/cheat element that has been exposed.

Originally posted by cracker

As I indicated, prior to May 3rd this was mostly a non-issue. Effective with Gotm20 we will implement an in-game solution that substantially eliminates these features from the potential issues column.


I didn't use the mod in question. I did find a different mod that greatly helped with spotting resources. I do understand the reason you feel the need to ban resource mods.

I must admit I am very unhappy to here this news. Being partially color blind finding a mod that helps me find resources / luxuries easier was a godsend. Before I found that mod to help me it was almost impossible for me to spot coal in jungle. I will still attempt GOTM#20, but if it proves to difficult because of change it will be my last. I remember spending a fortune in time trying to read the map to find these resources.

I do hope your solution doesn't disable the ability to use things like Snoopy's improved graphics. These are much easier on my eyes then the ugly graphics that game with the game.


================


EDIT:
Cross post with Cracker as I had this window open for reply for ages. It looks like one of my issues may already be resolved with the comment from Crakcer Adding the blips to legitimately make resources harder to visually miss on the map is a good thing and this incident just forces us to incorporate this feature into the games as we move to actively suppress the exploit/cheat element that has been exposed.


Now the question is what happens with Snoopy's?

I would like to state 'for the record' that I have never played GOTM, and that when I made my little mod it was purely from a benevolent desire, not a malicous one.

Jack, the FOW template is very useful, I will have a go at making a GOTM compliant resources.pcx. What I need to know is what GOTM players want in such a mod as I doubt I can fit all the info in that is in my current mod.
It seems that an enhanced visibility mod is what is needed most (without any extra info?) but (any and all of you) let me know precisely what's desired and I'll see what I can do.

I have to say that I didn't discover these resources until this thread, but they do seem extremely useful - not least for colour blindness. If a similar pack could be done without jeapordising the rules then that could only be a good thing.

Personally I'm all for both the smiley faces/letters and the food information. I know that the amount of food will vary under despotism, but then it will of course vary when simply irrigated!

What does everyone think of this? I moved the icons 14 pixels down to the vertical center.

Before:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcetest2.jpg

After:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcetest3.jpg

Dave-You can still see them under the fog.

But if that is incorporated into the saved game or art files that are required to play the GOTM (where everybody has them), then it wouldn't be a problem.

How would the resources look if the smiley faces/letters were placed directly ON the resource? Would that cover up the resource too much, making them hard to tell apart from one another?

i cant see them through the fog. should i get my magnifying glass?


EDIT- After looking *very* closely, i can barely see alittle bit of the h and th i. i dont think this would be cheating, because if you were willing to spend 5 minutes looking at black stuff, you prolly deserve the knowledge.

bewareofgnomes, I think you need to set up an appointment with your eye doctor ;).

Or you are color-blind or have a black/white computer screen. The smilies are easy to see, I can see them rather easily (I can almost see part of the eyes). Way much easier than the little bit of wheat that the game's default graphics sticks out.

on the bottom picture? i think that you are refering to the before pic, while im refering to the after.

Yes, I'm referring to the after (bottom) picture. I can see the corners of the smiley faces. Do you want me to draw some arrows to them?

Look by the tundra (white), that is probably the easiest to see.

some arrows would be nice. maybe its my crappy moniter?

Yeah, maybe I just have a bigger monitor, so I can see it easier.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/hidden_resources.jpg

now that you put arrows on them, i can see them, but io wouldnt go out looking for them. i have a very small and crappy panosonic, so it doesnt look like cheating to me, but then again it could to you as they might be bigger on your comp

I really don't know what to say to this thread other than...it's just a game. Some of you are taking the competition aspect of it way too seriously. Play for the fun of it, trust that your peers will play honorably and not cheat on purpose, etc. Sure the competition is a lot of the fun, else I wouldn't have milked my gotm18. But I don't see the use of getting worked up over something as small as this. I don't think the graphics mods should be banned. Everyone has access to them if they want to use them. Personally I don't like modding my graphics so I won't use them no matter what, but I could care less if some other player gets a tiny advantage over me by seeing resources through the fog.

Think about it, reloading your game once or twice because of major mistakes/bad luck would drastically help your game more than these graphics mods, and we would have no way to tell if someone did that. So if someone wants to cheat on purpose they can easily do so without using a graphics mod. I think it would be pretty sad if someone did this though. It's just a game. Winning it is enjoyable, if you deserve it, but when you cheat then what do you get out of winning?

I won't go into details, but if somebody really want to find the resource they are ways to cheat and do so. I know more then one of the top of my head.

Shillen and LKendter, I agree 100%. :thumbsup:

Alright, I have created another overlay (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/FogOfWar_Resources_Overlay2.pcx) using only the 2 darkest FogOfWar colors. Why does this remind me of bikini tops? :confused:

Here it is applied to the "After" resources.pcx
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcetest5.jpg

Since even Firaxis's resources are failing this test, the prospects of a mod using them are not very good. I might as well just eliminate the resource icons and use letters and smilies in the exact center.

I can't see them (on the after picture) either -- I *can* see the wheat.

I don't get it.

edit: Ok, I'm at work now with a less cheap-o monitor and most of them are trivially easy to see.

Renata

I agree - I can't see them at all (OK maybe the H and I if I look really hard). Perhaps it's down to the resolution I browse at... But come on, this is taking things a bit beyond.

LKendter,

Have you tried using crtl/shift/n to clear the map of terrain, etc. to make it easier to see the resources and luxuries?

Last try: centered_smiley_resources.pcx (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/centered_smiley_resources.pcx)

It's ugly but at least it's not visible under the fog. :rolleyes:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcetest6.jpg

Dave,

I really applaud your effort here to help people be in a position to make an informed decision.

I think that last example perhaps helps the colorblind at the expense of not looking good in the game for them or anyone else.

I am taking your inputs to mean that your preference is for visibility icons that are in the same color range of the Shankyburns type indicators instead of the little square blocks with blue and green letters we see in some other examples.

If we narrow the approved set down to few examples do you think it would be good to let the players choose which one we use?

Please, please, please let us keep the mod packs! I am using Heed's resource tabs (those "little square blocks with blue and green letters") and I can't imagine playing without it.

Like others said, the advantage of using the mod is extremely small, and cheaters can much more easily just look into the spoiler threads or reload the game from the start. Also, it is impossible to check if a player has been using a graphics mod or not (unless he is stupid enough to post a screenshot when using that mod).

So, IMHO, a good compromise would be to compile a list of allowed mods, which would include pretty much all of them except the biggest ones (like Alimetando's newest), and perhaps add one of them to the GOTM setup files. Going back to the original crappy graphics would be a bug step backwards, IMHO.

Originally posted by cracker
By definition Graphics Mods should be things that change the graphics and appearance features without actively changing game play. Changing the color of "wheat" to make it easier to legitimately see against plains or floodplain is not the same as changing the appearance of wheat to make it artificially visible from all the surrounding terrain squares when it should not be.

The problem is that there is a gray area of transition that exists when the content of the graphics mods need to pass some minimum standards that this modification clearly fails.




I believe you are off the mark here in priniciple. I agree with the solution to the problem, disallowing them, but your heavy handed approach towards someone's creative expression and free contribution to the civ community is out of line.
The problem is Firaxis and their own controls and art standards. You either have FOW or you don't and you either show the tile or don't, it would be trivial to *not* draw a resource that is hidden under FOW much like what is currently done with units. It seems obvious that the few pixels you see of the wheat is an art error, why show a bit of wheat but nothing else? That is the problem not graphic mods.

Originally posted by bewareofgnomes
if you were willing to spend 5 minutes looking at black stuff, you prolly deserve the knowledge.

I can see the smily on top of the tundra tile pretty easy without any close looking. I also have an app that allows me to zoom in on the windows screen and its cake to then see this, as well as some of the other more visible locations. So it doesn't even take five minutes really.

<homer>DUH!</homer> I thought it was about the FOG unit. Sorry, my bad!

Originally posted by Hurricane
Also, it is impossible to check if a player has been using a graphics mod or not (unless he is stupid enough to post a screenshot when using that mod).
I wouldn't be surprised if such information were stored in the savefiles.

Edit: A nice trick of course is, for the sole purpose of posting the screenshot, to temporarily run the unmodded version .... :scan:

Going back to the original crappy graphics would be a bug step backwards, IMHO.
Personally I think the original graphics are great, but don't we have an offer already to design alternative graphics that do not peep out?

Originally posted by Ribannah

Personally I think the original graphics are great, but don't we have an offer already to design alternative graphics that do not peep out?

I agree. To me this argument is simple. The design intent of the game is to use the original graphics. If people suffer from a visual impairment that makes the use of the original graphics difficult then lets take up the offer and get a bespoke graphics set built and certified by the staff. People would then have a choice of two, take it or leave it.

I doubt if Cracker and his staff between them have enough fingers to plug all the holes in the dyke when it comes to people cheating. The best that can be done IMHO is to set a simple and robust framework for those that choose not to cheat to work within.

It's difficult for inexperienced players (like me) when the rules are "woolly". For instance, I e-mail my game between home and work. At work I play with unmodified graphics, wheras at home I use Snoopys terrain. Now I'm not sure if I'm cheating, albeit inadvertantly.

Thankfully, the tone in this thread has already calmed down before I returned with my gathered quotes from elsewhere.

First, OT, I have used the resource graphics in the past and they definitely speed up my ability to locate resources and are a fine addition to the game (as are the smiley mood badges). But, I have on occasion, gained preknowledge of resources and (more commonly) luxuries because of the added icon. I doubt this has had a huge impact on my final score in either QSC or GOTM. I know it has not effected GOTM18 or GOTM19 because I have not installed the resource (or mood badges) on the new laptop I've been playing on. Obviously, I can play without these resources. But I definitely think they help me to play faster, while not gaining a whole lot of cheating info. But some cheating IS cheating.

I conceed that Cracker is the authoritative voice here and unlike a democracy, his word is law. Players wishing to compete in GOTM must acknowledge this. However, I'm also sure that Cracker has no desire to use the heavy hand of supreme power and in general has shown decent tolerance and second chances are given often. This said, Cracker's recent condemnation of certain graphic mod builders and their mods seemed out of character and less compassionate than previous dealings with "potential exploits". This may have prompted responses from accused people.

I have not gone to the other threads to read the previous discussions that came before this thread regarding the exploit but I suspect some extra baggage has been carried into this discussion from previous encounters. There appear to be four groups here:

1. Cracker - overseer and supreme GOTM power
2. Strict competitors demanding a rule book or at the very least, defenable precise rulings for all GOTM tournaments.
3. Graphic Modders - creators of graphic mods that a) help players enjoyment of the game and b) intentionally or unintentionally provide spoiler information about a resource, 1 tile outside of the viewable tiles.
4. GOTMers like me who want everyone to understand where everyone else is coming from, put it all in perspective, acknowledge the arguements of the otherside and come to a happy medium that provides the great community and fun gaming experience we've come to expect.

I hope group 4 prevails;)

Just as a reminder, it was a scant five months ago that Matrix posted this:
Originally posted by Matrix in his farewell speech:
It was fun, but not anymore. Goodbye.
And it's not april fool's day.

I've planned on quitting for some time now and discussed it in the staff forum and with the GOTM police. They all would hate to see me go and convinced me to stay, TF in particular. But I loathe administrating the GOTM now and have lost so much interest in it that I start avoiding this forum. The consequence is I suck as admin (as Cartouche Bee had pointed this out already in a subtle way ).

The reason of it all is simply the fact that making the results was not enough. After Valeri Kouznetsov was caught cheating (coincidentally by me) some noticed there are a lot more cheaters and the coming of the GOTM police was necessary. That was the point I started getting desinterested. All I want is to make these funny results. And letting the GOTM police check the savegames isn't enough. I suddenly had to coordinate everything.

I sincerely hope that:
a) Cracker can hang in there and not be emotionally scarred by his responsibities in GOTM.
b) Players can follow the rules set forth by the GOTM administration.
c) Players can provide constructive feedback to pressure the GOTM staff into changes that are good for the community
d) GOTM staff can listen, implement and clearly post their rational regarding changes or lack of changes so that, while players may disagree, they can also understand the reasons, not feel they are taken advantage of, and stay competing at very high level.

Thanks for listening.

Excellent post ControlFreak! :goodjob:

ControlFreak, I don’t want to sound rude but I have to ‘slap’ you a harsh answer:
-Cracker has been ruthless in instances of less importance than this and you (we) have to deal with that as complaining won’t get us anywhere. The graphics issue is a ‘cheap’ exploit, and falls within any definition of such and given it be allowed everybody will have to use the said graphics to remain competitive.
-Reading old stuff is good and commendable but you are using the quote out of the spirit in which it has been written.
Regarding your hopes and aspirations I think you (we) can:
- be sure cracker will hang in there
- always hope players are fair and with a little help from the staff (and the occasional disqualification of the offenders)
- help with constructive feedback and direct potential delicate issues to cracker directly and not to the forum
- be sure the staff is doing its best
That being said, I’m not really a graphic mod fan but I still use Snoopy’s and the happy faces. The resources are pretty useless IMO if your eyesight is reasonably good. Yes I have problems spotting the coal, saltpeter and rubber but it is doable.
It was fine as long as graphic mods were OK but I too, agree with cracker’s attitude. Or you can go with davemcw’s mod that hides the picture to show the letter but that would probably lead to a complicated list of allowed and disallowed mods.

Yndy,

There is no need for a 'disallowed' list. A very simple way of dealing with these things is: if someone would like to use a mod, calculation aid or whatever that is not part of the original game, (s)he should ask for permission, and if granted it is added to the 'allowed' list. Same for using an exploit that is part of the original game.

Although I didn't agree with the decision, DaveMcW did very well when he followed his part of this procedure regarding diplomacy during the end-of-turn report. He and everyone else should and could have done the same for using a graphics mod.

Of course to have this work we do need to have an 'allowed' list in the first place. I am asking once more to make such a list.

I also totally agree with Shillen & LKendter.
I would hope we could have some approved ModPacks such as the centered DaveMcW ressource ModPack.
I found the letter & smiley to make it convenient with my game play.

And as stated many times in this thread:
- this is just a game
- there are other ways of cheating.
- is ModPack that big advantage (vs carefull planning & strategy)

Originally posted by Yndy
ControlFreak, I don’t want to sound rude but I have to ‘slap’ you a harsh answer:

Actually, I was expecting to get 'slapped' harder. Your post seemed to agree with everything I've said except the first line. I wasn't really sure what you meant by:
Originally posted by Yndy
Cracker has been ruthless in instances of less importance than this and you (we) have to deal with that as complaining won’t get us anywhere. The graphics issue is a ‘cheap’ exploit, and falls within any definition of such and given it be allowed everybody will have to use the said graphics to remain competitive.
I assume you mean to say that Cracker's response to this issue is no worse than some of his other responses, while I had posted that it seemed "out of character". I admit that he has responded quite suddenly and vehemently to other issues besides this one. I meant only to balance his comments with the responders who seemed to have been blind-sided or overly-offended by his statements. In short, I was trying to be diplomatic and not side with Cracker or with the graphic mod proponents.

I also agree with you and Cracker that this is a cheat. I would love to have davemcw's mod that hides the picture to show the letter but would not want to force this decision on the many players who prefer to play with the pictures AND the letters or a different version with the colored boxes.

Originally posted by ControlFreak
I assume you mean to say that Cracker's response to this issue is no worse than some of his other responses, while I had posted that it seemed "out of character". I admit that he has responded quite suddenly and vehemently to other issues besides this one. I meant only to balance his comments with the responders who seemed to have been blind-sided or overly-offended by his statements. In short, I was trying to be diplomatic and not side with Cracker or with the graphic mod proponents.The point is that the mod creator (my brother) was taken on by cracker outside of the GOTM arena, and told that he was a "cheat", outside of the context of GOTM. Many worse things were both said directly and implied. This is why I came here angry at cracker. This is typical of why I won't play GOTM.

cracker, please don't edit my post this time, just because you don't like it. I have a right to speak my mind, it breaks no forum rules.

anarres@ Thank you for the clarification. You're comments seem more appropriate in context. I hope you and Cracker can settle your differences and you can join us in playing the GOTM.

You will never stop people from cheating if they are intent on doing so. Get used to it!
For instance, people can reload, they change the order they move units or change builds, and as such change the random seed and the outcome of a battle. There isn't any way to know they did this either.
You have to trust that people will play in a honorable fashion.
If there isn't any trust by the sponsers in the players, or the players in each other, then what exactly is the point?

This thread has shown that the attitude here is 'If it's possible to cheat you will. We can't trust you.'

After reading this thread, it's nice to know that my decision to never participate in the GoTM is still a sound decision, because there isn't any trust in this community.

Hello again :)

Here's a quick go at making a resources.pcx with non-revealing icons. I have only added icons for strategic and luxury items as I'm still not sure if any more info is wanted for GOTM games.

Resources.pcx :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTM1.jpg

With Fog (smallest version daveMcW posted) overlaid :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTM1_Fog.jpg

I haven't done anything to make the bonus resources more visible, icons could be added (it could be a generic single icon such as the lux icon) or maybe an outline could be added. the colours could also be made richer to give more contrast to the background graphics.

One thing to note is that there is more leeway mid-way down each square as the fog extends further to the edges here.

DaveMcW - I'm not trying to usurp the good work you have been doing on this so if I'm treading on your toes tell me and I'll 'back-off' :)

And here's a quick and rough outline for coal and wheat, to give an idea of how it might look:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Coal_Wheat_OL.jpg

This is only a quick attempt, the outline could be made a bit smoother with a little work.

In the past few weeks I discovered two things which add significantly to my enjoyment of Civ3: graphics mods, and the GOTM. It's too bad that they are being portrayed as in opposition to each other. People prefer different interfaces. I don't like to remember all of the details of all of the different resource bonuses, so I really like having the little food, shield, gold symbols on the tiles. That's why I installed the DrAlimentado mods. I really like them.

Subsequently I did notice that they give an edge in detecting some resources, which is too bad. I wish Atari would fix this (simply by not rendering the resource, but only the base tile graphics, if the tile is under the shroud).

I can also, reluctantly, understand a rule for GOTM, that mods should fit certain rules (i.e., concealed by the shroud).

But I hope we don't overdo it. If it comes to it, I'll simply play the GOTM myself, and not send it in. That way I can play however I want, and still compare with what other people do (via the forums). I don't care who "wins", especially since there's no way to prevent real cheating (e.g., play the whole game from a savefile, then do it again "for real"). I think the value of the scoring should be as a way for players to judge their own results. Not as a prize that people get so angry about. It would be fun to know that I scored 6th highest (or whatever). I don't really care whether one or two of the people above me cheated, or not. I hope we don't poison the atmosphere over this.

Just my two cents. Thanks for all of the work on the GOTM!

P.S. Are non-resource graphics mods also banned? For example, I use a modified mine graphic which is more visible than the regular one. So I might be able to see an enemy mine under the shroud, where it would be invisible in the regular graphics.

DrAlimentado, could you make a version like your example above, but with the food/shield/gold symbols in a straight line across the middle (so they are under the thickest part of the shroud)? It would be pretty cluttered, but I'd like to try it and see if it's useful.

DaviddesJ-I can't think of any situation where seeing an enemy mine would give you any extra advantage, or improve your strategic situation. So, I don't think anyone should have a problem with the mines, IMO.

The main problem is bonus resources (extra food) because food is so critical in the early game. Luxuries and strategics can also influence games, but to a lesser extent than having extra food in the capital. But on cramped maps where getting to a resource before the AI does could also dramatically change the outcome of a game.

It would help you to find the enemy. Better be strict.

Just to clarify here that I am a supporter of true graphics mods that allow players to customize "the appearance" of their personal game environment.

There is another range of the mod activity that either knowingly or unknowingly provides significant and unfair advantages that end up diminishing the depth of the game experience. Many players do not care about these issues in their personal games because the aspects of mystery and discovery in the early game are unimportant to their perception of what the game experience is or should be. Players who prefer to play games over and over again on known map configurations achieve their enjoyment from the game on a different level than players who eagerly anticipate the chance to reveal and conquer new sets of challenges. Its just a different game in these aspects.

It is probably not possible for us to anticipate every new and innovative thing that may be discovered to bypass the elements of game play that seem to be fundamental to how the basic Game of the Month is played. I am confident that when we find these issues we can usually address them in a way that maintains the confidence of the player community without resulting in too much loss of freedom.

Graphics mods that alter terrain appearance and feature appearance without fundamentally changing the way the game is played will continue to be something we should support and encourage as long as they do not disrupt the game. An example might be using a terrain graphics mod that converts everything to totally weird and unrecognizable combinations that only you can interpret and then posting these items in the game progress threads. I would probably discourage this even though it would not mean the game submissions would be disallowed.

The issue in this case is one of those exploit issues that we know potentially exist in the game but that have previously just been minor blips on the road map. If we take these issues and push them to extremes so that they become general public knowledge and begin to have a negative effect on many people, then something has to be done to close the gap.

So the answer is to enjoy your mines that may look like suburbs and to live it up with cactii in the desert. Have fun with blacktop roadways or orthogonal railroads. I like the lush cities myself and enjoy having ponds and fountains in my city courtyards.

The line of what is clearly unacceptable will always be subject to interpretation but some graphics mods are clearly in the non-issue category that we normally associate with "graphics mods", while there is another category that are cleary well beyond any line that we would draw in the sand to determine where they begin to alter play conduct instead of just visual apperances.

You would see the border before you see the mine.

There is also a 'solid territory border' modpack, that makes it easier to see the borders, especially through jungle.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
DrAlimentado, could you make a version like your example above, but with the food/shield/gold symbols in a straight line across the middle (so they are under the thickest part of the shroud)? It would be pretty cluttered, but I'd like to try it and see if it's useful.

Here it is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTMv2.jpg

And just to check, with the smallest fog overlay:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTMv2_Fog.jpg

As well as adding the bonus icons I have moved a couple of the stategic/lux icons a few pixels more into the middle as I had missed where they showing (literally by a pixel or two) in the previous example.

Not always. Mines can be outside the border.

A modpack that makes borders more clearly visible should be ok as long as it doesn't make them visible when they shouldn't be.

DrAlimentado: Lovely! Where can I get the pcx file to try it in the game?

My suggestion for GOTM20 is to reveal a larger area at the start of the game. Not only will this reduce the importance of "can the player see one extra pixel in order to get a clue where to build", but it will also add strategy to the game start, as players can plan their initial expansion when settling, not just the first turn.

Another suggestion, of the opposite sort, would be to just make the start location clearly the best in the local area, so there's no incentive to move anywhere else.

Either way this would reduce the importance of this whole issue (and hopefully some of the acrimony).

I wasn't sure if I should go ahead and post them, but I guess it can't do any harm.

Here's the Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTMv2_fixed.pcx) file pictured above (with gold/shield/food icons)

Here's the non-g/s/f version Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/resourcesGOTMv1.1_fixed.pcx) file (as pictured on previous page but with minor adjustment to icon placement)

[EDIT: uploaded correct versions :lol:]

These versions don't have outlines added, if outlines are wanted I can add them easily enough.

FWIW I think outlines are great for visibility, but make the resource graphics stick out in a slightly strange way. Here's an example of how they look in-game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Coal_Wheat_OL_ingame.jpg

But as I said, I'm happy to provide whatever is wanted here.

The outlines look cool! But adding outlines to the existing graphics (like wheat) would make them relatively more visible under the shroud (since they stick out already), so probably not a good idea for "competitive" play (unless everyone involved agrees).

I'll try out the v2beta asap (tonight).

I tried Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx and Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx but neither one works for me! I just get a black box in any space with resources. I never had any trouble with the previous DrAlimentado graphics. I'm running PTW 1.21f, if it matters.

Originally posted by cracker

Clearly these new graphics represent a game altering cheat while the old graphics where on the edge. The new graphics pack is just too much and gains some of its emotional support directly from the expanded cheat factor that reveals the resources from under the fog when they should not be exposed.[/B]

I can imagine you dont wan't them used in the GOTM but they were not designed for GOTM. Dr. A. never played a gotm. He built them for his own enjoyment. No harm in that imo.

Originally posted by cracker
It is unfortunate that these issues seem to arise where we find new non-players that develop new ways to exploit and downgrade the game play process, but we adapt and I can assure you that the games will still be fun and interesting.

......

This will mean that the bypass will reduce the ability of players to use resource graphics of their own choice in the GOTM games and other semi-competitive game events. This is an unfortunate consequence of the unintentional but perhaps poorly thoughtout choices made by a few individuals who are mostly external to the functional gaming community. [/B]
Again, these mods may interfere with GOTM, but lots of people play this game without participating in the gotm competition. They adapt/mod the game as they see fit and there's nothing wrong with that. I find terms as 'non-players' and 'the functional gaming community' displaying elitarism. They seems to suggest that if you're not participating in a competition, or more specifically the GOTM, you're less a player and not qualified to alter anything in the game. Please remind that the vast majority of Civ3 owners doesn't compete in any competetion .


The solution to this problem for the gotm can also be very simple. Why not design a graphics mod for gotm purposes that enlarges the FOW and make this compulsary for all gotm players. When it's possible to detect if anyone used a graphics mod that's not allowed in gotm I guess it's also possible to check if someone did use a required one. That way every gotm competitor can use graphics mod to improve resource visibility to their hearts delight.

Some of this sounds alot as: "You are going to cheat, we are going to stop it!"

Last warning anarres. Drop it and get on with your life - cracker

Originally posted by cracker
It is probably not possible for us to anticipate every new and innovative thing that may be discovered to bypass the elements of game play that seem to be fundamental to how the basic Game of the Month is played.You don't have to. Why not diminish your workload by publishing a set if rules?

The issue in this case is one of those exploit issues that we know potentially exist in the game but that have previously just been minor blips on the road map. If we take these issues and push them to extremes so that they become general public knowledge and begin to have a negative effect on many people, then something has to be done to close the gap.You still don't get it. It is an issue because it is unfair, not because we now know about it.

So the answer is to enjoy your mines that may look like suburbs and to live it up with cactii in the desert. Have fun with blacktop roadways or orthoganal railroads. ... The line of what is clearly unacceptable will always be subject to interpretation.
Please, Cracker, don't leave us with a grey area.
It doesn't have to be subject to interpretation. It can be subject to rules. Really, it is that easy!

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
I tried Resources_GOTMv2_Beta.pcx and Resources_GOTMv1.1_Beta.pcx but neither one works for me! I just get a black box in any space with resources. I never had any trouble with the previous DrAlimentado graphics. I'm running PTW 1.21f, if it matters.

Whoops! hehe, here is an object lesson in why I shouldn't rush stuff at 2 in the morning :lol:

I've uploaded the correct files now.

In my haste I had neglected to set the palette back to 256 colours, there were about 15.99 million colours too many in those pcx files :D

Originally posted by Ribannah
Please, Cracker, don't leave us with a grey area.
It doesn't have to be subject to interpretation. It can be subject to rules. Really, it is that easy!
Ribannah, rules are not the issue.

I am unwilling to reduce the flexibility that players have to reasonably explore their own enjoyment of the game through real graphics only modifications that they should freely have the right to use.

We cannot fully legislate the the need for some form of minimal competence, good judgement, and basic ethics.

I am unwilling to reduce the process to the one you want and that would be to prohibit everything unless it is reviewed and individually approved and put on a list.

DO NOT confuse the two issues here. This current set of problems was an obvious error in judgement (accidental at first and then perhaps glorified and promoted by individuals that should know better.)

We will close this loophole and it probably will have no effect on the current game or future games.

The primary cost here is in terms of the time wasted and resources that are stolen from other projects that probably would been going to things that would have benefitted you more than chasing the elusive rats in the crawlspace.

Dr. Alimentado is working on versions of his modification that accomplish what he wanted to do without expanding the negative impacts; Firaxis is working on disabling the display of any graphics that should be hidden; we have a solution implemented for Gotm20 and all future games that will render this issue unimportant.

The "GOTMv2_beta" resources are great! I like them even better than the original DrAlimentado graphics. Thumbs up!

I hope we can get an agreement that using "conforming" graphics in the GOTM is ok, so I don't have to constantly switch back and forth.

Originally posted by cracker

Firaxis is working on disabling the display of any graphics that should be hidden

This is fantastic news!! If Firaxis implement this then it looks like we will all be entirely happy.

As it is are people happy with the two 'GOTM-complient' versions posted here?
I could still add outlines but instead of adding a pixel-wide outline around the edge I could paint over the actual edge of the existing graphics.

Let us know what is wanted and I shall provide :)

Originally posted by cracker
Ribannah, rules are not the issue.
Er, yes they are. I refer you to the initial post of this thread.

We cannot fully legislate the the need for some form of minimal competence, good judgement, and basic ethics.Nobody is asking you to. These things are taken for granted unless proven otherwise.

I am unwilling to reduce the process to the one you want and that would be to prohibit everything unless it is reviewed and individually approved and put on a list.
It's entirely up to you, but as you can see your approach in this is causing exacty the 'confusion, error of judgements, glorification, promotion, loopholes, thefts of your precious time, elusive rats' and anything else that you fear so much.

Not to mention OUR precious time and the totally unnecessary confusion and conflicts, the unfairness, double standards, arbitrariness etcetera that WE fear and that you and you alone could so easily prevent if only you would be willing to invest that little time (what can it be? Half an hour?) to reduce - the right word indeed! - the potential of further problems.

Originally posted by cracker
...we have a solution implemented for Gotm20 and all future games that will render this issue unimportant.

So what does this mean for resource graphic mods?



I did some checking into this and while the posted displays in this thread with the fog overlay are helpful they are deceptive. Since its a blend the innermost grey is the closest to black you'll get, the second circle you can see any bright color easily, and this is the only point of interest since clear map can make all fog edges like this.

Using PTW resources which are slightly different than the originals, there isn't a single luxury that is not visible with a one spot fog. Just about every one is visible from the top and the bottom (Note: I am using top to describe the north west edge.), the only ones that are close to being completely covered are Ivory and Furs. Furs are only mostly hidden because it is on forests and blends pretty well, and Ivory shares the same trait but on plains. If you are looking at a row of forests where one has Furs or Ivory you should be able to easily spot the one that is different.

The bulk of strategic resources are also visible from top and bottom. The two early (Iron and Horses, the only ones where it seems reasonable that parts of the map may still be uncovered) are also visible from the left, whereas Horses are only not visible from the left. Also since Iron will only appear on hills and mountains, they are already effectively one tile closer, so on average are way more visible than Horses which hide better under the fog locally.

There appears to be no natural way to not reveal a Whale for any reasonable map configuration, and the Fish on a single tile lake is visible from all but the left side (When its not on a lake it shares the same always visible status that Whales have.). Wheat is visible from all but the left and the Cow is visible from the top and bottom. Gold falls in the same category as Iron being on a hill. And Game falls in the same group as Furs, although it like the Cow is made easier to see because of the high-contrast white that is present on each image.

All in all it seems clear that the Firaxis artist(s) that made the resources didn't have any sort of design spec to maintain them complete invisible with a border fog. So this crack in the dike, isn't a crack or a dike.


The effect of this mod on gotm19? Nothing, the Wheat was visible for those who looked without the mod. And the Game usually was uncovered with the first worker move.

As an aside, these tests were only done by eye. It would be fairly simple to open up a screenshot and reverse the blend and get some identifiable shapes in any area but the completely black areas, which in the case of Civ is anything with at least one edge visible. I assume you could do this fairly easily in Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro even.

Ribaanah, don't you think you are taking this "no rules is bad rules" thing too seriously?

It's only a game. I can't see anyone coming up with a definitive rules set, first time out, with no edits necessary.

And is a rules set necessary? As I understand it, the rules are simple.

1) Download the game. Do not mod the save in any way.

2) Play until 1000BC and submit a QSC if you want feedback on your early play.

3) Submit spoliers as you complete certain preconditions if you want to and play to completion.

4) Submit the final game before the due date.

5) Don't reload and replay any turn. That is considered cheating.

What more do you want than that? Or is there a rule here I'm missing?

I would be perfectly happy if those were indeed the rules, and a list were added to keep record of what mods and exploits are allowed like I decribed earlier. :)

@Ribannah You seem to be taking this very personally. One might even begin to think there is another agenda being pursued here.

edit :typo

If I simply press the wrong key, and a crucial unit goes to the wrong place, and I reload the autosave and replay that turn (exactly the same as before) up to the same point, so that I can move the unit where I intended it to go, is that cheating?

with a 1 year old son 'helping daddy' type and an couple of cats who like to run across the keyboard, I probably restart at least 3-5 turns per GOTM. I just try to be careful to make the same decisions (kind of hard when an un-escorted settler finds a barb camp!!), but the best you can do is try to be honest to yourself and the game.

:wallbash:

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
There is also a 'solid territory border' modpack, that makes it easier to see the borders, especially through jungle.


:cool:
Do you happen to know the link for this?
I have tripped leave my territory now more then once because I missed the blasted borders.


===========================

The main key will be to limit what has to been banned.

I use straight railroads, as they are much easier to see.
I am developing for personal use straight roads.
I love the mood badges in the city screens.
All of the above along with the graphic mods have made it easier for me to play the game. We have to be very careful not to create a situation where GOTM limits to many of these add-ons

You can tell this is a very important issue to the players are this issue has already invoked quite a few pages, and looks to keep going strong.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
If I simply press the wrong key, and a crucial unit goes to the wrong place, and I reload the autosave and replay that turn (exactly the same as before) up to the same point, so that I can move the unit where I intended it to go, is that cheating?

AFAIK, this is not considered cheating. I have reloaded a couple of times because of clicking the wrong button.

Originally posted by LKendter


:cool:
Do you happen to know the link for this?
I have tripped leave my territory now more then once because I missed the blasted borders.

Wow, when did the graphic modpacks forum become 8 pages long! I found it all the way back on page 7.

Solid territory borders (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17666&pagenumber=1)

I think it is the forth post on that thread that has a screenshot showing the territory borders.

It also has some funky mines on the screenshot, and those do not extend beyond the territory borders, so would not offer any advantage (of finding someone sooner). Even if the AI has 100 workers and 1 city, they won't mine outside their borders for future cities, like a human would if they had an over abundance of workers. The only time mines would appear outside borders is if the city just got razed or captured (culture border contracts). And if the AI are capturing each others capitals and you haven't found them yet, then you need all the help you can get :p.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
My suggestion for GOTM20 is to reveal a larger area at the start of the game. Not only will this reduce the importance of "can the player see one extra pixel in order to get a clue where to build", but it will also add strategy to the game start, as players can plan their initial expansion when settling, not just the first turn.


I support this idea. I like especially the strategic part in it.

Ronald

I am just thankful to find shielded grassland under jungle tiles; let us not trouble the Great Craker for more, elsewise, we may reap tundra and woes.

But it would eliminate some luck from the early game if we could see more prior to settling our capital. I am plumb tired of hearing folks claim to have used inspired logic for weird opening move sequences that can only have been the result of dumb luck.

The first posting of the GOTM 20 start

[Cracker-muttering]
I'll show em....I want this...no bonus grasslands..whine whine.....want more of the start...I'll give 'em a start....
[/Cracker-muttering]

[Cracker-evil laugh]
Bwahahahahahahahaha
[/Cracker-evil laugh]

For all concerned, THIS IS A JOKE...this is NOT the GOTM 20 start (some ppl are too serious :D )

Can't you always see if there's a shield on the grassland under a forest or jungle by using Ctrl-Shift-N? Putting them there seems sort of unfair, because only people "in the know" would think to look for them.

Originally posted by Ronald


I support this idea. I like especially the strategic part in it.

Ronald
Actually, me too. Since we started with the goody huts we could go further. I’d say 3 tiles on sides and 2 on diagonals from the starting position would do.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
Can't you always see if there's a shield on the grassland under a forest or jungle by using Ctrl-Shift-N? Putting them there seems sort of unfair, because only people "in the know" would think to look for them.

No you can't. Doing that will show up shielded grasslands as being unshielded. However even if that were so, the game puts them there, so there is a strong precedent for it.

-Sirp.

Shows what I know. I was always assuming there were no shields there just because they don't show up on the map when I turn off forest display. I still have a fair bit to learn I guess!

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
I don't really care whether one or two of the people above me cheated, or not. I hope we don't poison the atmosphere over this.
Agreed :)

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
Are non-resource graphics mods also banned? For example, I use a modified mine graphic which is more visible than the regular one. So I might be able to see an enemy mine under the shroud, where it would be invisible in the regular graphics.

Same question for barbs camps I use a mod that changes its display.

Originally posted by Smirk
Using PTW resources which are slightly different than the originals, there isn't a single luxury that is not visible with a one spot fog. Just about every one is visible from the top and the bottom (Note: I am using top to describe the north west edge.), the only ones that are close to being completely covered are Ivory and Furs. Furs are only mostly hidden because it is on forests and blends pretty well, and Ivory shares the same trait but on plains. If you are looking at a row of forests where one has Furs or Ivory you should be able to easily spot the one that is different.

The bulk of strategic resources are also visible from top and bottom. The two early (Iron and Horses, the only ones where it seems reasonable that parts of the map may still be uncovered) are also visible from the left, whereas Horses are only not visible from the left.

Smirk, I checked your sample map with my European English PTW 1.14 and can't confirm your findings. The only specials I can detect under the fog are Fish, from 2 angles, and Silk from one angle. Are we to conclude that there are also graphics differences between the various language versions? :eek:

Note that there can be very significant differences in color depth between different monitors/displays, too.

Originally posted by Ribannah

Smirk, I checked your sample map with my European English PTW 1.14 and can't confirm your findings.

Are we to conclude that there are also graphics differences between the various language versions?


Below is an image I put together in a few minutes showing a minimum of visible points. Which differ from what you have seen, and if you can confirm you don't see those points then we can assume there are differences between versions. I do know that the PTW resource graphics are different than the original Civ3, notably gold, saltpeter and gems have been slightly changed to look better, although their overall size hasn't changed much.

This is just a quick sampling of and usually just from one angle, many also show thru smaller pieces on other angles. I also just realized Ivory does in fact show thru, which I missed the first time I mentioned this.


Note: The zoomed views are from a zoomin program I have and I can use this within Civ3. There may be ways to do the same thing in stock windows if you use the "Accessiblity Options". Also of note is this is in the regular 640x480 resolution, anything higher will make these harder to see, but they will still be pixel equivalants.

(The image compression used so that I could post this image has destroyed some of the colors in the image, I can send the original to anyone who wants it.)

I stand corrected. The graphics are the same after all, one just needs training to spot those few pixels.
That is, I can see the Dyes now that I know what I am looking for. :crazyeye:

But without a zooming program (which IMHO shouldn't be allowed for the GOTM) plus many, many hours of training (and I have no intention to go there) I doubt if I will ever be able to spot anything else than Fish, Silks and maybe Dyes in an actual game. It doesn't change my view on using certain graphics modpacks.

Still, well done Smirk! :king:

Let's hope that Firaxis will hide them all perfectly with the next patch they recently announced.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Let's hope that Firaxis will hide them all perfectly with the next patch they recently announced.


After an attempt to put the smilies in the images without showing I can tell you its a difficult task. The same features you want so that they stand out and are easily visible (good UI) are the exact problems with them being visible under the fog. The only good way to hide a smilie would be to plant it right in the middle of the image, which is no good.

If they are smart (firaxis) they will just put them in the same group as player units and simply not show them under the (darkest) fog at all (the spaces that just show black when you try to get info on them). This would solve the immediate problem, and also give artists more room to be creative.

Just some toughts:

I personally have used the Skanky Burns resource mod, mainly because its lots easier to spot the iron and coal in bigger resolutions when they have the I and C labels on them. (no i dont mean to spot them from under the fog, but to see them, in general.)

Especially in large maps it was painful to browse trough the map and try to find that iron or coal resource before i installed Skanky Burns resources.

Something like GotM modpack could be made, that would be approved by the GotM staff. So the resources would be easier to see, but still hidden in the fog if they should be.
(bit like Dr Alimentado have been posting here already)

Do you know that you can use Control-Shift-N to clear away everything on the map except the resources? This makes them pretty easy to find.

known that for ages, its still pain trying to locate iron from huge mountain range at larger resolutions without the nice I on top of it. Maybe i should not use Snoopys grey mountains :)

Green Light: I think you're missing something. You can use Control-Shift-N to remove everything else from the map, including the mountains. This makes all resource deposits very obvious.

If Greenlight is using CivIII and not PTW, I don't think you can make the mountains disappear.