This is the first spoiler discussion thread for Gotm19-Ottomans.

Please read these instructions to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the new spoiler rules.

Spoiler threads are divided to allow players to participate in spoiler discussions AFTER they have played their game far enough to pass a certain point in time and have already gained specific knowledge of the game.

For this game, every player must pass three tests in order to be able to view or participate this spoiler discussion thread.

For Gotm19-Ottomans:

Absolutely must have full visibility of the landmass that you start out on in this game, including a view of most of the surrounding coastal edge with trivial exceptions AND
You must have map visibility and contact with a Red colored civilization PLUS
you must have discovered the last required technology for the ancient age but should not discuss any aspect of the middle ages even including the free bonus technology that you should get at the transition.

Here is a list of some specific dos and don'ts for this discussion thread:
[list=1]
You may discuss any game features/easter eggs that you discovered prior to the two cutoffs.
You may post screenshots of cool stuff, but try to be courteous and crop and/or downsize the images to less than 800 pixels wide.
You SHOULD NOT discuss aspects of the game that are beyond the starting landmasses because many players may not get to those issues until later in the game. That game is going to give you some strong hints via the in game pop ups and it is possible to potentially gain contacts beyond this limit. Tell us when you made contact but try restrai
If you think you found a "bug", PM first or email me at gotm@civfanatics.net to see if we can identify it better by some general methods rather than cluttering up the discussion of the play of the game.
[/list=1]

This thread is intended to focus on things that you did in the game that are both on the starting landmasses and in the ancient age.

SUGGESTED MAPS, SCREEN SHOTS and DISCUSSION TOPICS:

You Pick!!! What issues do you think are important to discuss within the scope of this spoiler?? What question(s) do you have that you would like to have other players share their specific experiences about?

Again we hope you are all enjoying this month's game.

cracker

4000 bc Move worker S, spot Game! Move warrior N, spot cows! Wow, this is a hard choice. After long consideration, I move the settler E. My reasoning is that I save 1 move compared to moving S of the cow, but more important, I can relatively quickly cut down the forest and immediately after that irrigate the Game, while I have to move 3 tiles, then irrigate the plains, and only after that begin working on the cow.

3950 bc Settle N of the game, move worker to Game. Warrior moves W.
3900 bc Worker starts chopping down forest. Warrior spots Wheat! I guess we will se a lot of different starting positions. Start researching Iron Working on min science.
3800 bc See coast to the west, and also to the east. Seems our contacts are due south.
3700 bc Forest chopped down, goes to build spearman. Worker irrigates, then roads.
3000 bc Settler.
2850 bc Found Iznik NE of Wheat.
2800 bc Meet Keltoi. They have Ceremonial and Warrior Code to offer, I nohting. I don't buy anything.
2590 bc Settler. Barb in sight, luckily they are normal 1/1/1 conscripts. I was afraid Cracker had some surprises in mind.
2470 bc Uskadar founded S of cows.
2430 bc Meet neoCarthage. They have Alphabet, the Wheel, Warrior Code and Ceremonial (like the Keltoi).
2150 bc build Izmit on hill NE of Dyes.
2070 bc Discover Iron Working. There is Iron next to Sogut! Build Aydin S of 2nd cattle. Trade IW for Alphabet&Cere&9 g w. Carthage, IW&Alphabet&20 g for The Wheel&Warrior Code w. Keltoi. Start on Writing @40 turns.
1950 bc Hut warrior killed by barb horseman S of Keltoi lands. 5 cities, 311 gold. Keltoi surprisingly weak, have only 3 cities.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc1950.jpg

1830 bc Carthage knows Writing but has no new contacts. I guess we are only 3 on this island. Switch to pottery @4 turns (90%).
1790 bc Spearman killed when attacking barb camp. Warrior killed when attacking barb horseman. :mad:
1700 bc My warriors are more lucky and disperse one camp, destroys one horseman. Spot FOG to the east. Discover Pottery, same time as Carthage. Buy Writing for 290 g. Establish embassies. Entremont is size 3 and builds Pyramids @56 turns. Carthage is size 1, builds Spartan Hoplite @4 turns. Have only 14 g left.
1575 bc Hook up Silks.
1450 bc Buy Mysticism from Keltoi for ROP and 15 g.
1325 bc AI learns Horseback Riding.
1275 bc Buy Map Making&maps from AI. Trade maps:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc1275-map.jpg

1175 bc First Galley, starts scouting E.
1125 bc Buy Philosophy for 200 g from Carthage, trade Philosophy for Horseback riding w. Keltoi.
1100 bc Uskudar builds Temple, starts on Forbidden Palace @50 turns.
1075 bc Erdine completes Barracks.
975 bc Power according to Pliny: I am 3rd! :)
925 bc 14 cities, 423 g.
900 bc Pay 34 g tribute to Carthage.
875 bc Land on island E of Keltoi. See Roman border.
850 bc Contact Rome. Get Code of Laws, map&181 g for own map & contacts & philosophy.

Later I try to buy a worker and get Rome's last 4 gold, but it turns out it is impossible! :confused: I wonder what the reason behind this is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc730-rome-doesnt-accept-de.jpg

670 bc Entremont finishes Pyramids! Meet new civs, trade map&contacts for map&contact, get Mathematics, get 550 g from Carthage for map&contacts. ROPs net me an additional 103 g. I have now 1675 gold.
650 bc Carthage comples Great Library.
630 bc Galley lost in treacherous waters.
610 bc Buy Construction from an AI civ for 160 g&contacts.
570 bc Discover Polytheism, buy it is discovered the same turn by 3 AIs. Sell to an AI civ for 76g.
530 bc Upgrade 19 warriors to Swordsmen.
510 bc Declare war on Keltoi. Keltoi's iron is not hooked up.
490 bc Lugdunum destroyed. Galley killed when attacking FOG.
450 bc Richborough captured.
430 bc Entremont and the Pyramids captured. :D
350 bc Keltoi destroyed.
310 bc Forbidden Palace completed in Uskudar.
270 bc Discover Monarchy, go into Anarchy. Trade for Currency&258g w. an AI civ. Enter new era, learn Monotheism. Gift Polytheism to Rome, then buy Republic for Currency, Construction, Monarchy, contacts & 540 g. Sell Monarchy&ROP to Carthage for 97 g (seems they were about to discover Monarchy). A ROP nets me 13g.

The map in 270 bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc270-enter-middle-ages2.jpg

I am the tech leader, 664 gold. There are no trades at all by this date. Only war has been between me & Keltoi. My army consists of 5 settlers, 9 workers&5 slave workers, 9 warriors, 14 swordsmen, 1 horseman & 3 galleys.

I have 4 luxuries hooked up (dyes, spices, silks & gems), as well as Horses & Iron. My city improvements are Pyramids, Forbidden Palace, 1 temple & 2 barracks.

My plan now is to switch to Republic, build up money for a mass Horseman->Knight upgrade (I will need about 20x80g=1600 gold). After I've built the around 20 horsemen, I will put an effort into getting libraries. I am researching Theology @ 40 turns, so when I get Knights will depend on the AI, but I hope it will be within 20-40 turns. I will then crush neoCarthage and jump my capital to Carthage.

Welcome Belgarathus,

Glad to have you here.

It seems that you passed a number of first tests and are well on your way to seeing the ADs after all.

Good luck in the rest of your game!

The following is my Timeline for the scope of this thread. The rest will have to wait for the "End Game" thread. Overall, the openning sequence for this game is a lot like in the GOTM#16. I have learned from my previous mistake and pay attention to the "deer" this time. Thank you to all "deer" friends from the GOTM#16.:)

@ belgarathus: you should probably edit your post; Cracker specifically mentioned not talking about other civs than Celts, Carthage & Rome.

@ Tone: you are probably right about the fact that they flatly will refuse any gold/gold deal, because IIRC they were willing to sell the worker for 30g. Maybe they were running a deficit or something.

About the granary: I took a chance and hoped to buy Pottery from an AI civ, but it turned out none of them knew it. So I ended up building a Spearman instead if a granary. The 4 food from the irrigated deer gave me settlers at a moderate pace, but together with the wheat and cattle I got them cranked out pretty fast. And the fact that the Keltoi were so poorly expanding helped a lot, too. :)

@Moonsinger: Please tell me that that "14 towns" in your summary is a mistake :) As far as I can see from your report you only built 7 settlers, and didn't capture any cities, so surely you mean 8 towns, no?

4000BC: On first consideration, I thought moving east onto the mountains with the warrior would be best, but I reconsidered. If I did that, and found nothing, then I would be 'forced' to move onto the north mountain with the worker. If that still failed, then the settler would likely move south, and the worker would take a long time to get ready to work. So instead, I moved the warrior north, planning to move the worker east if necessary. The warrior sighted cattle to the north. It'll take two moves to get onto fresh water with the cattle in range. Yeah that's worth it. Moved settler and worker north, following the warrior.

3950BC: Sent warrior east, sighting lots of bonus grassland. Settler north-west, worker north.

3900BC: Sogut founded, set to build a warrior. Worker starts irrigating. Warrior moves south. Hmm...founding on the starting location would have been pretty good too. I take a gamble that there'll be lots of civs nearby, including at least one expansionist one which has Pottery. Research -> The Wheel at max. I want to see where the horses are, and if the Japanese aren't in the game, I may be able to get some good trading value for it.

3850BC: Warrior goes south.

3800BC: Worker finishes irrigating. Sogut works the irrigated plains. Worker starts building road. Warrior continues south.

3750BC: Warrior keeps going south.

3700BC: Sogut: Warrior -> Warrior. Warrior goes west onto hills, and will continue north. Worker finishes road and moves onto cattle.

3650BC: Celtish warrior sighted in the south. Trade Bronze Working + Masonry for CB + 10 gold. Not great value, but hey...what can you do?

3600BC: Keep exploring...

3550BC: Worker irrigating -> road

3500BC: Celtic borders sighted in the south.

3450BC: Sogut warrior -> settler. I'm thinking that not going for pottery could have been a mistake, as I still haven't contacted anyone else.

3400BC: Sogut's borders expand. New warrior heads south. North warrior heads back south to act as MP after not finding much.

3350BC: Sogut grows to size 2. Lux -> 20%

...

3150BC: After improving bonus grassland tile, worker goes to improve a plain by the river

3050BC: Sogut builds a settler: pottery couldn't be secured in time to switch. Back to size 1. Set to build a warrior. Settler sent south with a warrior escort, toward a location the capital could have been on.

3000BC: Settler continues south.

2950BC: Settler crosses the river to intended founding location.

2900BC: Iznik founded south-east of Sogut. Worker starts on building a road to Iznik. The Celts have discovered The Wheel. *Sigh*. Iznik's one purpose in life will be to build the Pyramids, and it starts on them immediately. They are currently scheduled to take 200 turns, I plan to get them somewhat sooner than that :)

2850BC: Finally brown borders are sighted in the south by exploring warrior.

2800BC: Carthage contacted. Buy The Wheel off Celts for 11 gold. Buy Warrior Code + 10 gold off Carthage for The Wheel.

Hmm...there are no horses in sight! Research -> Pottery, due in 8 turns. Sogut -> Temple as prebuild for a granary.

...

2510BC: Pottery comes in, Pottery -> Iron Working @Max. Sogut switched to granary.

2350BC: Sogut granary -> archer. In my view, 'offense is the best defense' early on, at least against barbarians.

...

2270BC: Sight a barb camp in the south, but decide not to attack because it looks like it'll be an annoyance to the Celts.

2230BC: Sogut archer -> settler. Carthage has iron working, but I can't trade it from them. That camp that would be 'annoying' to the Celts just got destroyed by them. That was a pretty silly move :)

2190BC: Brennus threatens for 21 gold. Give it to him. A pictish warrior shows up from the south.

2070BC: Sogut settler -> worker. The settler will head to the south-west of Iznik, and one of its purposes will be to get more of Iznik's radius under our cultural control, so that Iznik has more workable tiles for the Pyramids.

1990BC: Barb camp dispersed near settling site. Pictish warrior approaches Sogut.

1950BC: Attack pictish warrior approaching Sogut and narrowly win. If I lost, at least one tile would probably have been pillaged.

1910BC: Sogut warrior -> barracks. Uskudar founded and set to build warrior.

1830BC: Get Iron Working. Trade to Celts + some gold for Mysticism. Then trade Mysticism + Pottery + Gold to Carthage for Alphabet, then sell Alphabet to Celts for 50 gold. Research -> Math. There's a source of iron right next to Iznik. Excellent, that can help with the Pyramids.

1700BC: Sogut barracks -> worker.

1675BC: Sogut worker -> settler.

1650BC: Worker merged into Iznik to speed Pyramids. I decided not to chop the game/forest near Iznik, rather letting it be a 2/2 tile while the Pyramids are built. Iznik will rely on worker merges for much of its growth.

1575BC: Sogut settler -> archer. Settler goes west to found.

1500BC: Sogut archer -> settler. Another worker merged into Iznik. Izmit founded on coast to the west. Uskudar worker -> barracks. Worker goes to build a mine on nearby bonus grass.

1450BC: Iznik grows to size 7. Set to work on iron mountain to hurry Pyramids. Due in 16 turns.

1425BC: Hannibal threatens for 14 gold. He has troops wandering around, so I cave to his demands.

1400BC: Sogut settler -> spearman. Settler goes east.

1350BC: I get mathematics and trade it to Carthage for Writing + Horseback Riding. Research -> Philosophy @ Max.

Sogut: Spear -> worker.

Aydin founded to the east.

1300BC: Izmit warrior -> worker.

1250BC: Worker starts road toward the silks.

1225BC: Sogut worker -> settler.

1125BC: Uskudar barracks -> warrior. Aydin warrior -> temple, as prebuild for harbor. Sogut settler -> spear. Settler goes north-west to found by cattle.

1100BC: Philosophy comes in. Trade to Carthage with world map for Map Making. Trade to the Celts for their World map + 29 gold. We can see there are red borders across sea to the south-east. Set Aydin to build a galley. Antalya founded north-west of Sogut.

1075BC: Silks hooked up. Izmit set to build a harbor.

1050BC: The Pyramids are completed. Iznik -> worker. Soguts granary sold for 7 gold. Uskudar warrior -> warrior.

1025BC: Iznik worker -> barracks.

1000BC: Caesar bought contact with us, apparently. He has Code of Laws, which I trade for Philosophy and some gold.

Summary:

* 6 towns
* 6 workers
* 9 warriors (only one of whom is a veteran, this is defense/mp stuff only at this stage)
* 2 archers
* 2 spearmen
* The Pyramids (and thus 6 granaries)
* Happy Citizens: 38.0; Content/Specialists: 9.8; Territory: 188.3 Score: 236.
* (IMO the two best metrics of one's economic strength): GNP: 38 million (2nd), Mfg Goods: 26 megatons (2nd).
* Techs: All first level, iron working, mathematics, writing, mysticism, philosophy, code of laws, map making, and horseback riding. Researching Republic which is due in 28 turns.

...

I didn't keep detailed notes after this, but I did keep building settlers in Sogut and settled all the land to my north. I used Iznik and Uskudar to build a warrior/sword military with which I would attack the Celts. What happened next will have to wait til the next spoiler thread.

-Sirp.

I didn't keep a timeline past 1000BC. I recommend not trying to read the text file... (just remember I told you so!)

----------

I started out moving the Settler to the unshielded grassland. Figured the Plains were more valuable. Then 2 Warriors and a Granary.

I stuck to max research. Pottery, then the Wheel (visions of Sipahi), Mathmatics (all the commercial civs showing on F10), Literature (I always make this mistake), then on to the Republic.

The AI's on the continent in my game were nothing like I'd expect from an Emperor difficulty AI. The Celts were at 3 size 1 cities by the time I had built 5, having built a granary first even. Carthage wasn't much better, but they started picking up towards the middle of the Ancient Era. Not sure why they were so pitiful, but they seemed more like Regent or maybe even Warlord AI's.

I sent 3 Vet Swords to take the Celts capitol around the 1000BC QSC deadline. Then I fought a holding war trying to get a Leader, but no luck. The Celts didn't seem to be able to produce many units for me to kill.

I sent out a Galley to make contact with Rome before the QSC deadline hit too. I had noticed the overabundant marine life along the shores, but QSC score makes for weird risks. I had tried to time a second Galley, but forgot to pop rush on the proper turn, and so ended up switching it to a Sword. My lone galley took 2 hits along the way, but did survive just long enough to make contact. Then it was promptly sunk by a coallition of 4 barbs. :(

These are my notes for the QSC, hope they're not too cheesy:

4000 BC The hut warrior moves on the mountain to the East, and reveals a silk to the NE and a game to the South. Since with 7 opponents (2 more than normal for a small map) I don't anticipate having time for a granary, I decide to found 1 tile SE of the start. This will allow me to irrigate the game forest through the city without having to irrigate another square first, and brings an extra bonus grass into range.

3950 BC Sogut founded, starts warrior. Worker starts mining the bg tile (the game tile is being worked by the city). Warrior explores via the other two mountains for maximum visibility. Reserach at max ordered on pottery.

3800 BC Spices spotted to the north

3750 BC Warrior built in Sogut, another one ordered.

3650 BC Worker starts clearing the game forest. Dyes to the south - this start is looking almost too good to be true.

3550 BC Sogut builds warrior, starts barracks as granary prebuild.

3450 BC Meet the Celts to the South.

3400 BC The trusting Celts move 2 workers next to my warrior. So stupid of them.

3350 BC Declare war and grab the two workers

3300 BC One Celtic warrior dies to mine, another one kills him.

3000 BC I make peace with the Celts; Brennus gives me CB+10 gold for pottery. The war slowed down my exploration, but in return, I got two slaves which should help.

2950 BC Spot squid, and several Fogs. Slow down growth in Sogut by a turn to get the granary before city growth.

2900 BC (?) Granary built.

2800 BC Cassite warrior spotted.

2670 BC Aargh ! The barb moves into the city range, messes up the lux configuration so the city now riots, and kills the two warriors I send at him ! Luxes have to go to 40% as I send the spear to kill it.

2550 BC Sogut builds settler, starts spear.

2500 BC The Wheel researched - the Celts already have it. No horses nearby. Alphabet is next in case we're stuck on an island with the Celts.

2470 BC Iznik founded on the river to the SW, next to the dyes. 3 native luxes will help a lot in the rise of the Ottomans. It starts a warrior.

2230 BC We meet Carthage. (I think I traded for alphabet here, forgot to write that down)

2030 BC Uskudar founded 5 tiles due SE of Sogut

1750 BC Izmit founded due east of Sogut.

1725 BC Barb horse spotted. This is not good.

1675 BC My barb luck continues to stink as the vet spear in Izmit (vet from beating off an earlier attack) loses to another barb horsie. The city is now defenseless and 8 gold is captured. Horses discovered after all to the N.

1600 BC Celts demand tribute, I pay.

1475 BC Maths comes in at max research, I trade it to Hannibal for IW + writing and to Brennus for WC + 45 gold. Currency is next on the research list.

1325 BC Antalya founded. Carthago has Mapmaking

1250 BC Bursa founded

1025 BC Edirne founded, claiming the horses.

Summary: I have 8 towns, with 9 workers, 8 warriors and 9 spears. I have all the first level techs plus IW, Maths and writing. I do not have contact with the Romans yet at this point (got that later). It's definitely not a fast tech game as my contact with the Carthaginians was long-delayed because of the Celtic war, and because I sent a warrior north.
However, the two early slaves did cripple the Cetls, and by exploring north, I did discover that I had the space to make building a granary worthwhile.

One final thing: I was very pleased at discovering the Celtic town of Mohács, as I in fact predicted it in the idle speculation thread :)
Sorry for the chest-pounding :blush:

1000BC:

16 cities
29 Pop

2 Granaries
2 Barracks
2 Libraries

1 Settler
7 Workers
1 Captured Worker
7 Warriors (1 vet 5 reg 1 conscript)
6 Swords (5 vet 1 reg)

Here's a little graphic timeline.

Still compiling some photos and timeline but I thought this one was slightly humorous. This doesn't really fit in anywhere, it was just one of many such occurances. (Note the slightly wounded squid. Such brave sailors.)

Hi fellows !


This is my timeline too. For now, its the most warmongering of all that i read, so enjoy! A bloody tale of swordclashin in Ottomanic lands, by r0ck, the worthless (as dubbed in the annals of civilization)


4000 settler southwest to grassland. warrior north to mountain. cattle and silk spoted. worker south to bg, road then mine

3950 sogut founded, warrior in 5 turns. worker road on bg, warrior of the hut NE to mountain close do silk. Iron Workin in 40 turns (8.2.0)

3900 warrior of the hut south on mountain

3750 worker to road then irrigate wheat
3700 warrior ready. sent to explore west and south. another warrior in 5 turns.
3650 fish and fog spoted. will setup second cith here
3600 spoted silk, met brennus. traded masonry for ceremonial burial and all his gold(10). I must strike him fast before he gets iron


3500 wheat improvements complete. now, lets to mine bg and then road game.

3450 warrior complete. started building settler. will be ready in 8 turns, city will turn pop 3 in 7 turns

3300 spoted gems in the jungle.
3350 Started mining bg. spoted entremont´s border. need that settler badly!
3100 - settler ready

3150 contacted brennus. He must have got bronze working from someone else. He doesnt need it from me anymore. There must be another scientific civ in the continent, and it must be close. Sent warrior of the hut towards the fish to scort the settler.

3000 Met Hannibal. here is our scientifc neighbor. It will be a tough early start. 2 UU´s in the same time, same continent. Spoted spice in jungle, close to gems. We are forgotten in the most powerfull of the world. Thats good enough. When the nukes show up, they will remember us!

2900 Celts found Mohacs near the dyes, south of the fisherie spot.

2850 Iznik founded by the shore. my southern border is close to completion (needs one more city to lock then from access to my part of the continent)

2750 - Started roading river plains on the side of iznik.

2710 - Selected place for 3rd city. close to the gems, southwest from sogut. Sent warrior 3 to the forest square between the 2 hills, mountain and lake.

2630 Irrigation of iznik´s plain completed. sent worker to road towards cow. Gonna set up 3rd city up there, in what appears to be a shore

2510 sogut´s barracks complete. started settler, will finish in 8. City will grow to 3 in 6

2430 Iznik´s warrior complete. set spear(10) City grows to 3 in 10.

2350 - set slider 7.2.1 to avoid unhappiness in sogut. City is size 3, will plop settler in 2

2270 Settler ready. Start warrior. will plop in 4. Iznik´s spear plops in 6

2110 warrior plopped from sogut. still building warrior. growth in 3, warrior every 4. Contact cartaghinians and celts. They are both 3 techs ahead of me (alpha, warrior and iron)

2070 - Uskudar founded. building warrior (10) roading to cattle complete. mine and then came back. Warrior spoted "legs" under the fog to the left. must be cattle too. Bought warrior code from the cartaghinians for 54 gold. Brennus wanted 58! Iron working unveiled close iron! We will move all our warriors towards sogut as soon as we have the iron linked (set for misticism in 38 turns).

2030 - Iznik´s Spearman completed. Started worker(5) Moving Warriors towards sogut for upgrade. Set slider to 7.2.1. Exploring warrior spots spices and a assyrian camp close to sogut. lets try their mettle.

1990 - Another warrior plops from sogut. Set for 2 more warriors and then a settler (grows to size 3 in 10 and builds a warrior every 2 turns.

1950 - Cartaghinians start piramids. We are hopeless in the largest of the world. Our warrior defeats the assyrians. We have 264 gold now. Trade alphabet for 77 gold. Set slider to (6.3.1) for misticism in 19 turns.

1910 - Another warrior ready, set to settler in 5, city growth in 4. Celts plop Camulodunum close to uskudar. It was wise to expand south first. Still 10 turns to link iron, at least.

1830 - Iznik´s Worker complete. Irrigate and road plains by the river. Set to build spearman

1700 - Uskudar´s warrior complete, set to worker in 5. City is size 2

1650 - Settler built from sogut. Set to spearman(7), send settler to build a city close to the cows, by what looks like coast. Iron brought to sogut We upgrade 6 Warriors to Swordsmen. Settler reports that its not a coast, but a lake. No problem. Gonna settle there anyway.

1625 Izmit founded. Iznik´s worker completes 3 tiles of irrigation and roads.

1600 We move our army of 5 swordsmen towards camulodunum. We dont have any good intentions. Swordsman Warrior of the hut sent to protect izmit
1575 Uskudar´s worker complete. We start spearman. Will finish in 10 turns. we intent to attack brennus in 5 turns. Iznik´s spearman is complete. Set for settler. This city is now defended by 2 spearmen. It has to be enough for now.

1550 Swordsmen of the Hut defeat barbarian horsemen. There must be a camp close, but we cannot affort to go on hunting for now.

1500 Sogut builds spearman. Set for another one. We will invade brennus, I mean, brennus territory, in 3 turns

1450 We declare war before entering brennus territory, and invade Camulodunum from its north eastern hills. We have 3 VEt Sm and 3 REg Sm. They have spearman for defence.

1425 We destroyed Camulodunum, having lost only one vet Swordsman, but other has upgraded from vet to elite. We will move to mohacs now. Misticism discovered. Set to politheism (40)

1400 Iznik produces another spearman, set to The colossus(40). Celtic warrior closes to izmit. Swordsman of the hut is there, and izmit´s spearman is due in the next turn. Swordsman of the hut defeats celtic warrior and is promoted to regular. Pict warrior closes in from the northwest and izmit is undefended! we will have to move The Hut to protect the izmit. Set slider to (5.2.3) to keep izmit from rioting

1375 Izmit produces spearman (set for settler, 10, city grows to 3 in 5), picts get close. Hannibal stablishes an embassy in our capital (set slider again for 7.2.1). Swordsmen Attack archer outside mohacs. Elite swordsman climbs hill to rest (is now 2/5)

1350 Swordsman of the hut ordered to rest in izmit. Elite swordsman ordered to rest in hills with a veteran (3/4) sw as backup. 3 sw descend unto dyes by the jungle. Regular Swordsman defeats one of the spearmen taking only small casualities (2/3)

1325 Uskudar´s spearman ready. Sent warrior back to sogut for upgrade. Picts get close to our worker near izmit. The Hut sent to oversee worker´s progress and protect from the picts. Sent a gift of our world map to Hannibal (i still dont know map making, how can i send him my map ?). We descend upon Mohacs like an unearthly plage, and destroy it. Despite the loss of one of our mighty swordsman, we manage to capture 2 workers. We force peace upon Brennus for All his gold (4), Pottery, the wheel, and writing. Now we are going somewhere ! Hannibal is above us for one tech (map making) and one city. We will go back to sogut to reinforce our armies, but brennus hasn´t seen all of us yet. Reset for literature (20) (2.7.1, +3gpt).

1300 Sogut´s swordsman complete, set for the oracle/60 (prebuild for great library)

1275 Swordsman of the hut defeats hurrian camp and is promoted to veteran

1250 - Celtic Slave used to link dyes, South of Iznik reset slider to (1.9.0) Literature in 11, upgraded Uskudar Warrior to swordsman, sent one of soguts speamen to oversee and protect the workers near izmit, sent swordsman of the hut to reinforce troops close to celtic border.

1175 Move one of Iznik´s Spearman to protect dyes from a nearby warrior. will attack celts again in 2 turns

1150 used another slave to link silks

1125 Set izmit to temple, using worker to clear forest near silks to give 10 shields. Uskudar spearman2 complete. sent to protect nearby worker

1100 Regular Swordsman ambushes regular warrior on hills close to dyes and gets promoted. 5 Swordsmen (1 elite, 3 vets and 1 reg) close to entremont. Aydin founded near cows and mountain. Spoted horses to the west. Sold world map to hannibal for 6 gold (he is annoyed to me)

1075 Worker starts roading cows near aydin. Barbarian horseman spoted in mountains. Entremont Razed to the ground, no units lost. 2 slaves and 6 gold captured.

1050 moving towards lugdunum. Celts move warrior and settler to nearby mountain! They are tributing slaves to our glory! AMAZING ! Celtic archers hazed harappan camp (they now have some gold to provide us)

1025 - Warrior Defeted, workers captured. Send to link to "via resourcia" There is iron, horses and incense nearby. will build a city here. Swordsman of the hut defeats archer. Spearmen of Aydin climb hill and kick barbarian horseman´s rears. Worker finishes road and starts mining cows near aydin. Hannibal is ahead of us by 3 techs (mathematics, horseback riding and map making) and 2 cities. Literature is due in 3 turns. set slider to 1.8.1 to prevent izmit (pop 5) from rioting (only one spear there)

1000 - Forest chopped near izmit, 10 shields added. Temple in 12 turns will became a library when literacy is discovered. Worker starts mining silk colony. Force peace upon the celts again for map making, horseback riding, 3 gold and their world map. Traded world map + 33 gold for hannibal´s world map. Spotted a red border near sabratha (rome´s!). Now we have access to horses and a good spot to defend our territory. Soon we shall have knights and rule our continent.

This finishes our start. We are still the last of the world, but we are only 3 points behind the celts. Let´s see how this game ends !

Well I really bit the big one on this start. I think I had like 5 cities at 1000bc.


I would like to nominate myself for the "Polish Roulette Winner" award. It's like Russian Roulette except you play with an automatic instead of a revolver.

The problem is that I got greedy and played like it was on a lower level. I saw a settler that was guarded by only a warrior and saw a chance to collect two hard working slaves and slow the AI down at the same time.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc3150_plans.jpg

The plan wasn't too bad, except for one little thing. When my warrior attacked the warrior/settler I lost!

A short time later I got my first luxury with my second city.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc2800.jpg

But then the unthinkable happened. :o

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/bc2470lostcapital.jpg

I was really hating life when I lost my capital of RufRydyrville. I sued for peace and went on with the daunting task of catching up. As you'll see in the future, I did OK. But losing my capital really hurt!

630BC was a bumper year for tech trading. Carthage- got Math and Map Making for Lit and 85g. Rome- got Code of Laws for Lit, World Map, and 55g. Celts- Ceremonial Burial and ter map for lit.

In 10BC completed the Great Lighthouse by hand. It was kind of an accident as I was trying for other techs I think.

330AD was another bumper year for tech trading. Selling communications I got the remaining techs needed to leave the Ancient Times. Here's how it looked just prior to that and the last screenshot I can post in this spoiler thread:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rufrydyr310ad.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have Excel or one of the free readers that allows you to read Excel files, here is my QSC. Thank-you to mad-bax for taking my QSC template idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=919873#post919873) and making it look so pretty with suggestion2. :goodjob:

Originally posted by Wotan
I had a great sequence of events leading up to an early and inexpensive conquest of the Keltoi in 2110BC.

It all started when two of my Warriors moving south both came within striking distance of the Keltois first Warrior/Settler combo moving north to found his second city. I chanced an attack on them and took two slaves for no loss.

I'm jealous. I should have attacked with 2 warriors instead of 1 on that settler/warrior. [phaser] :rocket2: That's the way to do it! :goodjob:

Attacking one warrior with another warrior is very very chancey. You have less than 50% chance of winning if you have the same number of hitpoints.

Even two regular warriors against one militaristic warrior on flatland only have 72% chance of winning. You need vets vs a regular to have a good chance of winning - around 86%.

-Sirp.

@shura - You are way outside the scope of this thread. I am sure that Cracker will snip soon enough. This was meant to cover the ancient time frame.

=====================================

4000 BC to 250 BC - This is a quite time of expansion that gets us cities for horses, silks, dyes and spices. We gained contact with Carthage and the Celts early. Rome contacted us at 530 BC. The gods shine upon us as Carthage declares war on the Celts in 330 BC.

230 BC to when 170 AD - We sign an alliance with Carthage to beat up the Celts and we get Code of Laws for doing what I was already planning to do. I laugh as Carthage allies with Rome vs. the Celts. We all know how useless the AI is a seaborne attacks. During this time we get the news that Egypt built the Great Library pretty much crushing any hope of a 20K city win - we got just one ancient age wonder of the Pyramids. We get nailed with 7 turns of Anarchy to head to Republic. We sign peace the Celts having just one city and we get worker, Polytheism, Construction and wm for our trouble. We signed peace just in time as Carthage destroys the Celts the next turn. We get our first leader who has plans for the middle ages.

========================

I only got 6 new cities founded during this time frame, so I expect my QSC score to suck. I had horrid luck with guessing the best tech to research with the AI following my path to often. My tech score will be lousy.

Well, this is my first GOTM, hip-hip-hooray! I didn't keep a timeline like so many others, but I'll give a quick recap of the action . . . hmm, we'd better make that a lack of action. I missed the wheat when I founded my capitol at the starting location. Anyway, I explored with a few warriors to scout new places to settle. I ended up founding my next cities in position to grab all but one dye-location, which the Celts grabbed and on top of the gems. After establishing my temporary southern border, I filled in the northern part of the land mass with cities. In my only ancient era war, Carthage took my "gem city," but my swordsmen were quick to recapture it.

I'm normally a regent player, but I've enjoyed playing this game on the higher difficulty.

@Lee you may want to snip your post too. No disscussion of Middle age free techs.

Anyway, I am at work and don't have all the details but up to the QSC period I had 9 cities and about the same number of workers. And spent some gold on a couple of "indentured" servants from the Celts. It is really amazing how taking there workers has really put them into the hole. I am very pleased to see the vast number of lux available and resources. I took note up to 1000BC and have a couple saves along the way I will review and post some shots later today.

Hotrod

Of note moved the worker to the south BG and saw the game forest. Wanted to make sure that tile stayed in the city radius so I didn't wast my warrior moving North so I sent him west to see if moving the Settler SW was a good idea. Saw the wheat and knew a move was in order.

Originally posted by Sirp
]@Moonsinger: Please tell me that that "14 towns" in your summary is a mistake :) As far as I can see from your report you only built 7 settlers, and didn't capture any cities, so surely you mean 8 towns, no?

No, it's definitely not a mistake. I got 14 towns. I stop recording unit production after 1600 BC; sorry, too many things were going on and I forgot.:( It was late and I was tired; I got to 1000BC ASAP so that I could go to bed.

Anyway, I'm sure many others could have easily gotten at least 14 towns by 1000 BC without capturing any towns. My prediction is that by 1000BC, there will be a lot of players who not only have more than 14 towns but also got at least 1 Middle Age tech as well and they also have meet all the civs and have traded for the complete worldmap. Basically, this is my worst game ever. However, I will see if I can make a come back during the golden age around 500 AD. It's not really over until it's over. I may be beaten but I won't give up.:)

1000 BC:

- 10 cities
- 18 warriors
- 4 workers + 1 slave
- 1 settler

Going for a my first conquest victory, all previous GOTMS (one one submitted) I have played I ended up with space race victories.

Entered middle ages sometime before 10 AD, not sure exactly when.

Originally posted by utahjazz7
Well, this is my first GOTM, hip-hip-hooray! ...

I'm normally a regent player, but I've enjoyed playing this game on the higher difficulty.
Yeehaw, we are honored to have you play with us Utah!!!

Just a reminder to all players and a big thanks to you again for all your great unit annimations that are featured in the GOTM games. The Pictish Warrior that is in both versions plus the Euro Sword, Frankish Axeman, and Militia (Seperatist) in the Civ3v1.29 version are all great units that really help to exapand the flavor of the game while keeping the rules failry close to standard.

Hope you have at least 1/2 as much fun in the game as you make it possible for the 200 other players.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm18_PW4.jpg

Thanks and Good Luck!!!!

Notes: The barbs were the toughest in any GOTM that I can remember. There was a surprising amount of open land. All the pregame speculation about being hemmed in was totally off base. A granary helped me. I expect players that built granaries did better overall.

I did not pay as much attention to optimizing the start as I could have and am disappointed with the ten city total at 1000 B. C. Fourteen seems doable for normal folks and some top players may have 18 or even 20 cities. Thankfully, the Keltoi are incredibly weak for an Emperor level AI, and NeoCarthage is below average. It took me a long time to find the "red" civ.

I immediately went to chop the forest, but would have been better off mining the shield grass first.

Here is my abbreviated timeline and an image from 1000 B. C.
10 towns, 1 spearman, 7 workers, 20 warriors.
----
4000 BC spot cow, and game, move settler SE to plains.
3950 Sugot (capital) founded on plains. Worker to chop then irrigate game forest. Pyramids used for Granary prebuild. Research Pottery 100%. Warrior explores in a circle pattern
2950 Granary complete, warrior next
2510 NeoCarthage trades their Warrior Code and 10 gold for my pottery. Keltoi Wheel tech for my Pottery, Masonry and 10 gold. I go for Iron Working then beeline to Literature. Turns out to be bad, as AI also goes for writing.

2470 Iznik (2nd city) founded near cow lake.
2310 Uskudar (3rd city) founded near dye forest.
2150 Izmit (4th city) founded near wheat.
1675 Aydin (5th city) founded near river cow.
1625 Antalya (6th city) founded on coast three tiles east of capital.
1400 Bursa (7th city) founded near gem lake.
1350 Edirne (8th city) founded on iron hill near Keltoi. This will become the lone upgrade city when the war begins.
1175 Istanbul (9th city) founded to the NE of capital near silks.
? I seem to have lost the 10th city somewhere in the shuffle.
1000 end

I was happily surprised w/ how easily I was able to expand at the emperor level; very happy w/ my initial set up. Although I've kept polite relationships during this period, both Keltoi and neoCarthage have been relunctant to trade. Obviously, the Keltoi would provide my tech advancements via the battlefield. Work to maintain polite relationship w/ neoCarthage. Also, the landmass provides for an easily defendable front against any southern aggression.

well this was my very first gotm and first game above warlord and I'm at 1250AD (ish) and not dead yet! Major achievement for me... still it goes without saying that I'm at least 5 techs behind everyone and had a very late entry into the middle ages.. oh well hoping for a miracle!
I've read all the game logs and now understand where I've gone wrong.. I'm just not agressive enough... Carthage wiped out the Celts ages ago and I've so far managed to avoid a war with the Romans (most powerful, most advanced, richest etc) by severe ass licking.. wonder how long that's going to last?
I've got 11 cities all with libraries and a few with temples but since I haven't managed to build a single wonder I'm almost last in the culture race (at least Carthage is impressed with my culture!)
One other thing that scared me was this Fog stuff all over the coastline... it put me off settling any coastal cities cos I wasn't sure if it could attack me or not... and those squids are soooo hard to spot till they kill your poor little galley on a suicide mission before it's even left the coast :cry:
Oh well here's hoping I get to post in the next thread..

I don't want to start some hate/flame war BUT

I really like to know what was the reasons (except the obvious but not very fairplay one) for some people to move the settler SW and settle THERE next turn while their worker/warrior were exploring another area (ie. they 'discovered' the wheat to go with the game by pure 'luke' AFTER settling).

The only reason not to settle ASAP (in 4000BC) were (IMHO) if moving the warrior/worker on one of the mountain or the bonus grass and :
- you notice luxuary in your 21 titles (north)
- you wanted the game in your 9 titles (south or SE)

Even discovering the game, I still settle on the starting title and 'notice' the wheat just out of my 21 titles and thought what a pity I did not settle just 1 title SW, I guess some weaker minded player might not have resisted starting again knowing that.

I hope I am wrong ...

Jabah

In my case my first move was the worker to the Bonus grass as it was the first tile I wanted worked. By seeing the game tile after the move of the worker I knew I wanted that tile in my city radius. That limited the SW move as the only move I was going to make and deciding that I was either going to stay put or move SW it only made sense to see what was to the West with the warrior and not look over the mountains. Had I not had an extra warrior I would not have moved the settler at all but by having my warrior take peak to the west I was able to see the wheat.

The key for me was moving the worker first before moving the warrior. IF I moved the warrior first I would've been inclinded to check the terriotory from the Mountains and would have never seen the wheat even if I moved the worker south.

It wasn't luck at all I had a reason for every move I made.

Originally posted by Jabah

The only reason not to settle ASAP (in 4000BC) were (IMHO) if moving the warrior/worker on one of the mountain or the bonus grass and :
- you notice luxuary in your 21 titles (north)
- you wanted the game in your 9 titles (south or SE)


I am not exactly in the category you mention, but I did move the settler SE to the plains next to the game tile. Before deciding, I move the warrior N to mountain to see the cow, and worker to shield grass to mine and road to see the game. I move the settler towards the game. In retrospect, I think I could have done a bit better by settling at the start and getting the game tile upon culture expansion. The cow is a better bonus than game but takes three full turns to reach. Plains Wheat is not as good because it only gives three food when irrigated under Despotism (irrigated wheat has same stats as unimproved cow).

Aeson already posted his timeline (a download attached to the 10th post on this thread, first page), so maybe you can study it. Aeson, SirPleb, Bamspeedy and a few other top players usually have a close to optimal start for any given terrain. Some timelines are reproduceable, others involve finding enemy civs at an opportune time (to capture workers, cities or settlers). Me, I still have more polishing to do, though I am closer to the top than the bottom.
+ Bill

Let's sort of add this topic into this spoiler thread as a running Q&A discussion topic:

Based on your experience with what you are seeing with your neighbors, what do you think is the priority order that AI leaders are given for determining what city sites to settle: good growth and food sites, luxury resources, strategic resources, strategic position, territory expansion, or something else or a combination??

What combination of map and timeline factors seem to result in a strategic shutdown of AI competitiveness in the early part of the game??

Originally posted by hotrod0823
In my case my first move was the worker to the Bonus grass as it was the first tile I wanted worked. By seeing the game tile after the move of the worker I knew I wanted that tile in my city radius. That limited the SW move as the only move I was going to make and deciding that I was either going to stay put or move SW it only made sense to see what was to the West with the warrior and not look over the mountains. Had I not had an extra warrior I would not have moved the settler at all but by having my warrior take peak to the west I was able to see the wheat.

The key for me was moving the worker first before moving the warrior. IF I moved the warrior first I would've been inclinded to check the terriotory from the Mountains and would have never seen the wheat even if I moved the worker south.

It wasn't luck at all I had a reason for every move I made.

I also moved (S) the worker first to the BG, noticed the game and decided i wanted that in my 21t radius, but instead of sending the warrior W (revealing the wheat - after that it is normal to move the settler, but some did move after sending the warrior somewhere else) I send the warrior on the E hill (since it will reveal lots of the east) to consider moving on OTHER side of the river, and since there was nothing of interest I settle there.

Your 'explaination' makes perfect senses (not like moving and delaying settling by 1 turn because you can gain 1 turn of worker action buy irrigating a plain instead of mining a grass - the number of river is borderline as the starting position has enough river until Sanitation).

Again, I was just wondering, not accusing anyone (even if I am still convinced that the tentation might have been to strong to a few).

Jabah

Without having my notes on my settlement it is tough question but from what I remember from my game it appears that resources and lux are key factors. I had a celt pair walk all the way through my territory to the North Tundra to found a city and even after a quick war with them was over they sent another pair north. I believe that there must be something in that ice.

The other thing I noticed was the AI founding cities in the jungle towns without any workers on clearing the land. The celts were really hemmed in by jungle and could never get any growth what so ever.

Taking 2 slaves through purchases killed their growth even more. I didn't hurt either that they are fixated on wonders too. Entremont was building a pyramid but was completely under developed. Yes he did get the pyramid built, (lucky for me!) but he was wasting turns.

Not having too much contact with carthage I haven't looked too hard that their progression. Rome on the other hand had way too many units and left the entire top 1/3 of there island undeveloped. I was able to get 3 jungle cities built easily. He completely ignored the jungle, even the lux site.

I may have more to imput after I look over my notes.

Hotrod

[edit] I understand your concerns and agree that if you moved north or east with the warrior then moving southWest would be a gut shot or at the very least just a move to get less Mountains in the city radius. I think most that moved the warrior north or East to the mountains moved the settler S, or SE.

Anyways, AI seems to be geared towards resource build locations.

I agree. Even to the extent of putting cities in terrible locations because of future resources ;)!

I have read other reports, that mimic my results - for an emperor level game, I found the Celts to be very weak from the start. Brennus was clearly interested in grabbing as many luxuries and resources as he could, neglecting better city spots. Furthermore, his military was rather weak. What happened to all the free units he started with? My guess is that he sent them after the barbs...and the barbs in this game have been particularly strong...my guess is he was expending his forces as fast as he could make them...I did see some of his warriors attacking/gettign killed by barbs.

I would really like to hear to hear other thoughts on why the Celts were so weak. I was quite surprised - I expected very tough neighbors on my first emperor game.

Going to try and get this game in for my first GOTM.
Was certainly happy with the way things are going. could be better.... could be worse. Lots of resources was a bit of a surprise, and very useful. i imagine it will allow for speedier victories. thanks for hooking this up cracker and team!

Originally posted by Jabah
I don't want to start some hate/flame war BUT

I really like to know what was the reasons (except the obvious but not very fairplay one) for some people to move the settler SW and settle THERE next turn while their worker/warrior were exploring another area (ie. they 'discovered' the wheat to go with the game by pure 'luke' AFTER settling).

The only reason not to settle ASAP (in 4000BC) were (IMHO) if moving the warrior/worker on one of the mountain or the bonus grass and :
- you notice luxuary in your 21 titles (north)
- you wanted the game in your 9 titles (south or SE)

Even discovering the game, I still settle on the starting title and 'notice' the wheat just out of my 21 titles and thought what a pity I did not settle just 1 title SW, I guess some weaker minded player might not have resisted starting again knowing that.

I hope I am wrong ...

Jabah

Hi Jabah,
I can only speak for myself, but like HotRod, I moved my settler SW as well..and it was not luck..nor cheating (I refuse to cheat - even when things go very poorly). Like HotRod, my opening move consisted of moving my worker south first to the Bonus Grass...then I sat and debated what to do with my free warrior. North? East? West? North and East were very tempting due to the mountains...but in the end, I moved him West. Why? I followed advice posted in the pre-game discussion by one DaveMcW...that the best chance of a bonus food would be down the river...and he was spot on. Once I saw that moving SW would give me both deer and wheat, moving the settler was decided upon.

In this game I was trying DaveMCV's famous tactic with palace jump. This was a pretty easy emperor game start. The start position was incredible with 4 luxuries, cattles, wheat and rivers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm18_map1.jpg

Turn # /Turns Left Year Comments
0 / 540 4000 BC- Warrior E finds silk to the north, game to the south and possibly sea to the east. Worker S finds nothing extra. Sogut founded and find wheat to the west, lol. Research Pottery at full speed.
1 / 539 3950 BC- Worker start building road. Warrior S.
2 / 538 3900 BC- Warrior keeps moving south.
3 / 537 3850 BC- Worker start mining.
4 / 536 3800 BC-
5 / 535 3750 BC- Warrior2 ready and goes N. Finds cattle to the north.
6 / 534 3700 BC- Warrior2 walks on the third mountain and it looks like sea to the east.Worker moves NE to plains.
7 / 533 3650 BC-
8 / 532 3600 BC- Green border in sight to the S. Tax change from 100 to 70%.
9 / 531 3550 BC- Meet with Keltoi archer. Exchange Masonry + Bronze Working for Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial. Maybe I should take those two eqWorkers there. Tempting.
10 / 530 3500 BC-
11 / 529 3450 BC- Discover Pottery. Research Alphabet 100% (25 turns because I use dear, otherwise it would have been 18 turns). After much thinking, I decide to build a granary in the capital and let the worker chop down the forest to get the food bonus from the deer.
12 / 528 3400 BC-
13 / 527 3350 BC-
14 / 526 3300 BC-
15 / 525 3250 BC-
16 / 524 3200 BC-
17 / 523 3150 BC- Gain 10 shields for forest. Start irrigating. I check the Keltoi each turn if they have a worker for sale. They still don't have Pottery.
18 / 522 3100 BC- Meet neoCarthage warrior in the south. I trade Warrior Code, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial and 3g for Alphabet. I trade Pottery to Keltoi for 10 gold so they can't buy alphabet somehow. Now that I have wasted 9 turns researching Alphabet, I will research Mathematics at 10% speed.
19 / 521 3050 BC- Sogut size 3. Deer irrigated.
20 / 520 3000 BC-
21 / 519 2950 BC- Granary complete in Sogar. It is time to produce settlers.
22 / 518 2900 BC-
23 / 517 2850 BC-
24 / 516 2800 BC-
25 / 515 2750 BC-
26 / 514 2710 BC-
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_2710bc.jpg
27 / 513 2670 BC- First settler! Move south.
28 / 512 2630 BC-
29 / 511 2590 BC- Iznik founded.
30 / 510 2550 BC- Keltoi discover Iron Working. neoCarthage discover The Wheel. I buy Iron Working for 86g, 5gpt and Alphabet. If I don't buy, they will exchange knowledge and it will be more expensive to buy their techs later. neoCarthage doesn't want Iron Working, and doesn't give me The Wheel!! I am not good at diplomacy...
31 / 509 2510 BC-
32 / 508 2470 BC- Second settler complete.
33 / 507 2430 BC-
34 / 506 2390 BC- Uskudar founded.
35 / 505 2350 BC-
36 / 504 2310 BC- Scythian encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold. Iznak completes a worker.
37 / 503 2270 BC- Third settler complete. Iznak worker chop down forest. Red border spotted on another island.
38 / 502 2230 BC-
39 / 501 2190 BC- Izmat founded.
40 / 500 2150 BC-
41 / 499 2110 BC-
42 / 498 2070 BC- Corruption in Iznik. The barracks will take longer to complete than I have planned.
43 / 497 2030 BC-
44 / 496 1990 BC- Fourth settler complete.Silk connected.
45 / 495 1950 BC-
46 / 494 1910 BC-
47 / 493 1870 BC- First coastal city, Aydin founded. Both neoCarthage and Keltoi discover Writing (it took them 17 turns).
48 / 492 1830 BC- Keltoi demand 27 gold. Of course I refuse. Can't blaim them for trying they say.
49 / 491 1790 BC- Sarbadar encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold.
50 / 490 1750 BC- Fifth settler complete.
51 / 489 1725 BC- Barracks completed in Uskudar. My warrior factory has opened.
52 / 488 1700 BC-
53 / 487 1675 BC- Antalya founded next to a pictish warrior, so I buy Writing for 131 gold and establish embassy with neoCarthage for 47 gold so that the warrior won't pillage too much of my gold. (91 gold left and 17gpt)
54 / 486 1650 BC- 15 gold pillaged from Antalya. Right of Passage with neoCarthage for 3 gold.
55 / 485 1625 BC-
56 / 484 1600 BC- Sixth settler complete (every settler comes from Sogut). Harappan encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold.
57 / 483 1575 BC-
58 / 482 1550 BC- Discover Mathematics. neoCarthage give me 235 gold for it, and Keltoi give me The Wheel and 28 gold for it. Research Currency at 100%. (lose 3 gpt). Current treasure: 455 gold.
59 / 481 1525 BC-
60 / 480 1500 BC- Cultural border expansion put dye into my territory which is already connected. Bursa founded. Bactrian encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_1500bc.jpg
61 / 479 1475 BC-
62 / 478 1450 BC- Seventh settler complete.
63 / 477 1425 BC-
64 / 476 1400 BC-
65 / 475 1375 BC- Bantu encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold.
66 / 474 1350 BC- Spice connected (3rd luxury).Edirne founded.
67 / 473 1325 BC- Both Keltoi and neoCarthage discovers Map Making! I buy it for World map + 159 gold with Keltoi.
68 / 472 1300 BC-
69 / 471 1275 BC-
70 / 470 1250 BC-
71 / 469 1225 BC- Eight settler complete.
72 / 468 1200 BC- Iron connected. Upgrade 8 veteran warriors to swordsmen.Discoover Currency. Research Code of Laws.Keltoi and neoCarthage both discover Mysticism, sigh. I sell Currency to both of them for all their money and techs.
73 / 467 1175 BC-
74 / 466 1150 BC-
75 / 465 1125 BC-
76 / 464 1100 BC-
77 / 463 1075 BC-
78 / 462 1050 BC- Istanbul founded. neoCarthage discovers Horseback Riding (worthless tech for now).
79 / 461 1025 BC- Declare war on Keltoi and attack Moha`cs with three swordsmen.Two of them die, one survive and they are left with an elite spearman with 2 health left.
80 / 460 1000 BC- Discover Code of Laws. Research Philosophy. Entremont captured with only one swordsman loss! First unit promoted to elite status! Nubian encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold. First galley created. Unfortunately a squid will kill it the very next turn :(.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_1000bc.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_1000bc_military.jpg

I ended the war shortly after for contact with the Romans 900 bc. With heavy losses, I couldn't keep on fighting. Instead I prepared for my first palace jump ever. Forbidden palace was complete 850 bc and I made the palace jump 710 bc. See my new capital.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_710bc_capital.jpg

650 bc - The Pyramids built in Carthage (neoCarthage.)
590 bc - My first harbor complete. Trade luxuries with Romans.
550 bc - Discover The Republic and go into anarchy.
450 bc - Government Republic.
290 bc - Meet Indians and trade for world map and technologies. End of Ancient Age.

It took some time to find the other civilizations. Here are some dates that I wrote down:

One turn after 1000 bc, my first galley is killed by a squid.
825 bc my second galley is lost in the fog.
370 bc my third galley sink in the sea, {but just for the sake of mystery lets save that topic for the next discussion - ;) }

Originally posted by Wotan
When I moved up towards Entremont I moved a single Warrior from the west and four units from the north (1 Archer and 3 Warriors). The Western Warrior lured two Archers from Entremont to chase him west into the mountains. So basically, had this not happened the city would have been defended rather strongly by two Archers, one Spearman and a Warrior.

Great tactic!:goodjob: I hope nobody is going to think of it as an exploit (because I'm using it all the time).;)

Originally posted by Jabah

I really like to know what was the reasons


There are a number of reasons, one to get the mountain out of the radius. To get more river squares in, a move sw or w improves the capital by +2 river squares. A move sw removes 1 mountain and west removes 2! Lots of good reasons to move without seeing the wheat. All of this can be seen without moving at all by the way.

If you do the sensible thing and move your worker south on the shieldland, you will find another shieldland beside it, moving sw now will get that river shieldland in the radius. Later you'll find out that you actually traded a shieldland for that one since one was lost south of the mountain, but the one gained is a river shieldland, quite a bit better than the other.

I predict that most people that move would move sw or south, west may appear to be a great move but its not.

@Shillen,
I attacked Entremont with 5 veteran swordsmen. If you look at my timeline, I didn't have much luck attacking Mohac with 3 swordsmen a turn before.

My fourth city started building forbidden palace around 1900 bc. It was really close to the capital, had very little corruption and could share already worked tiles with 2 other cities. So that is probably why I could build it faster. I didn't join any workers there.

I have to agree that Aeson was really bold when he attacked Entremont with only 3 swordsmen.

Edit: fixed the dates. It was 1900 bc not 1700 bc.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/mac.jpg v1.29beta

I tend to space my cities further apart, but for this game, I had every intention to do a dense city build like so many successful gotm contestants. However, my old vice of going for the four luxury resources prevailed.

As usual (at least, when bonus food is available like cattle or in this case game) I built 3 warriors to explore the world, then granary before settler.

Contact with Brennus was in 3250bc, with Hannabaline in 2800bc. We spotted a red border across the sea in 1790bc and left a warrior looking for ships to come. The Roman galley came in 1075bc but regrettably made contact with neoC and Keltoi before us; thus no deals.

Our starting considerations were as follows:
warrior climbs N mountain and sees cattle and silks; worker S on bonus tile sees game; reasoning: cattle is too far away; silk not immediately needed; irrigated game gives 3 food; move settler SE towards center of map, city propagates water to irrigate game. Research pottery 100%.

Interestingly, it was no big problem to stay even in techs. After pottery, I researched iron working at max and got it also first. Next followed minimum on mysticism but got beaten by 7 turns; minimum on literature was successful and the resulting deal for polytheism from Rome put us in the Middle Ages in 290bc.

I did not go for any Wonders and was happy to hear that the Keltoi built The Pyramids for us in 450bc. :D

War was declared by the Keltoi (neoC joined in but we made peace for a modest payment in 310bc) in 490bc starting their decline and our thriving with the captured Pyramids at the beginning of the Middle Ages, but that is beyond the scope of the thread.

The following map is 290bc as the Ottomans are in anarchy.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm19_1_map.gif

The power graph is quite interesting. Normally, I need much longer to catch up on emperor, but this was an advantageous starting position and maybe the small map effect. I followed DaveMcW's advise to not build early temples, thus our weakness. What really surprised me was the Roman culture, since usually Rome is culture-weak.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm19_1_power.jpg

Just wanted to thank you for the great posts, guys! I had a really fun time reading all the posts. :)

Originally posted by r0ck
3000 Met Hannibal. here is our scientifc neighbor. It will be a tough early start. 2 UU´s in the same time, same continent. Spoted spice in jungle, close to gems. We are forgotten in the most powerfull of the world. Thats good enough. When the nukes show up, they will remember us!


:lol:

Originally posted by RufRydyr
I was really hating life when I lost my capital of RufRydyrville. I sued for peace and went on with the daunting task of catching up. As you'll see in the future, I did OK. But losing my capital really hurt!

The irony, the irony. Not only to lose your capital but to lose your named capital! :(

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
3000BC A miner disaster - the square irrigated and roaded by the worker is outside of Iznik's boundary. Set the worker to mining the cow as a punishment.


Those pesky workers! I guess you took the game concept to the extremes; the slaves are the only ones getting something done. :lol:

BTW, my stats at 1000 bc: 13 cities (22 pop), 1 temple, 1 barracks, 1 settler, 6 workers, 12 warriors, 1 galley. 2 luxuries hooked up. Not great, but not disastrous. :)

Tao: your histograph also hints at an extra Roman settler, and my histograph shows the same. I am pretty confident that they got one extra settler to start with. Not that it will help them... :ninja:

Originally posted by Hurricane
Tao: your histograph also hints at an extra Roman settler, and my histograph shows the same. I am pretty confident that they got one extra settler to start with.You are correct. They founded their second city by 3800bc as the summary replay shows. You may deduct that I survived the game. :)

I seem to be the only one who conquered the Celts by 1000 BC. Actually I did it in 1250 BC. I didn't really even try, they were just really weak. I should have continued building military units and taken the Carthaginians too. Big mistake on my part. Here is my 1000 BC minimap and the accompanying zoomed-out map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/pilf1000BCmini.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/pilfzoomout.JPG

The barbarians are spawning everywhere. They regularly spawn camps in the first fog of war tile away from a city. Is this normal or are the barbarians on steroids for this game?

That's about it. I'm not doing as well as I should, but I'm not too worried about it.

Shillen,
you are probably right again. Bonus grassland is very powerful in the beginning since the cities are so small then. And my placement on my forbidden palace and palace is quite bad actually. Lesson learned. This game has been very educational so far, and I will study it more as soon as I finish it.

You should be glad that you didn't attack Entremont as early as I did, because that gave you The Pyramids which is a real boost to growth and economy.

I started this Game with several restrictions:

A)To prove the Ottomans research power I’ll not run any Min-Science-gambit. On contrary I’ll try to research as fast as possible and leave the AI in the dust.

B) Consequently I’ll aim for a Space-Race-Victory;

C) I’ll not declare war on any AI.


4000BC: Move the Warrior north and the Worker south; then I decide to move the Settler 1SE and found Sogut in 3950BC;
Research started at m100% on Pottery;

3550BC I met the Celts and trade them Masonry + BW + 13 gold for Warrior Code and CB;

3400BC Pottery learned Start IronWorking;

2750BC Contact with Hannibal;

2350BC IW learned Myst started;
2270BC Pottery + 18 gold to Celts for Wheel;
1910BC Myst learned Poly started;
1870BC Myst to Celts for Alpha + 30gold; Myst to Carthage for 55gold;
1425/1400BC: Poly learned : Poly to Celts for Writing + 110gold; Buy the Embassies; Research on Lit started;
1175/1150BC: Lit learned; Lit + 10gold to Hannibal for MapMaking and WM; Lit to Celts for Horseback + 8gold + WM;
Math started;

At 1000BC I'm one turn away from Math and have 9 Cities;

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/1000BC_comb.jpg

After Math I research Curreny;
925BC: Meet Rome: Math + Poly for CoL;
730/710BC Currency learned; Sold to Rome for Philo + 130gold + WM;
Sold to Carthage for 80gold + WM
Start Construction;

510BC Constuction learned Middle age entered;
End of Part 1 ;)


Rowain

Chiz, indeed there is no need for so many spearmen. That's almost two per city! I keep one spearman at most in most of my cities. Perhaps if a city was particularly threatened it might have two or three.

Far better to have a small defense in each city, and then a 'dynamic' defense of swords or horses that can move to any area under threat.

-Sirp.

Wow. I didn't attack Entremont until 610 BC but I brought 10 veteran swordsmen and I lost 8 of them in the attack. They had 5 or 6 spearmen in there.

The Celts were rather backwards in my game. I was suprised that they had a second Spear in their city at that point. I was figuring on them only having 1, as they were building the Oracle in their capitol for ages past. At least they couldn't pop rush any more Spears! All their other cities were showing Warriors at the time, but all were size 1 with no culture and so not worthwhile targets. Combined with the 1000BC QSC deadline, I decided I needed to do something with my upgraded units otherwise the gold spent was a loss in QSC score.

So I only sent 3 vets, and kept a reg back to kill their wandering Warrior moving through my territory. They had 2 Spears in Entremont, both regulars. The odds weren't great against 2 Spears, but they were in my favor, and I got good rolls. Though I'd much rather have had the luck when attacking the Warrior (vet) defending the Settler with my Warrior the Hut, or when a few turns later my Vet Sword lost to the same Warrior trying to capture the Settler. (Finally got it on the third try though! :) )

http://civfanatics.net/uploads4/hotrod191.JPG

I have:
9 cities
319 gold
1 granary
3 baracks
2 temples

And 4 techs from the Middle ages.

I really like to know what was the reasons (except the obvious but not very fairplay one) for some people to move the settler SW and settle THERE next turn while their worker/warrior were exploring another area (ie. they 'discovered' the wheat to go with the game by pure 'luke' AFTER settling).

The default move with the Worker was onto the shielded grassland. That shows the Hill tiles to the SW and the Game.

It wasn't just the plains/unshielded grassland, here is a listing of the reasons I moved SW:

1. Plains are more valuable than unshielded grasslands. They allow for 2.1 tiles with 1 fewer worker turns, and also give the flexibility to mine and get more production if food is abundant.

2. The Game puts food production at +4. That would allow the use of 2 Mountains or 4 1 food production tiles (Forest, mined Hills, mined Plains). More production available by moving to get the second Hill.

3. Known tiles I was giving up in my city radius to move SW: (none of which showed being on a river)
- Bonus Grassland.
- Plains.
- Grassland Forest.
- Plains. (of some sort in the FoW)
- Mountain.

to gain:

- Hill on river.
- Grassland Forest on river.
- Grassland (of some sort in the FoW) on river.
- Unshielded Grassland.
- Unknown.

4. The nature of the river. The NE fork obviously wasn't very long, and there wasn't much commerce to the NE in general from what I could see. The NW and SW forks were at least as long and potentially much longer. The Capitol being towards the most commerce potential was a factor.

5. What looked like Coast showing along the E, combined with the Game. I definitely wanted to keep the Game in the city radius, but also wanted to move away from the coast at least a tile, to give enough room for at least some cities (I was planning on size 12 from the start) to the E. It was a gamble that the coast W was farther away, a 'known' against an 'unknown'.

The site SW had more production and more commerce potential, all at less Worker expense. Which is why I chose it.

I'd like to call it luck, but it seems the better players always get these really 'lucky' breaks. So maybe it's not luck, but I don't see how you could know that these appearing gambles will pay off.

Good luck happens, bad luck happens. I mainly just play the best odds and hope things work out. In this case I was sending 3 Vet Swords against what I figured was 1 Reg Spear and probably a Warrior.

If I had been reloading, the one thing that would have helped my game out was a Leader to rush the FP and/or at least one AI that was strong. The Celts being so pitiful helped my early expansion, but everythign I gained there was corrupt because the Celts had nothing for me to milk leaders from.

Everything else was rather inconsequential. Moonsinger's expansion shows that the Wheat wasn't a whole lot of help, I had 15 native cities and she had 14 (and more units) at 1000BC. Entremont was well beyond the help of a Courthouse, and didn't add anything to my empire other than the QSC points.

I didn't have 'good' luck throughout the game IMO. I certainly didn't play anywhere near as good a game as I could if I were to play again knowing what I know now. The move SW payed off, so did the attack on Entremont (at least considering this time frame, overall I wish I hadn't have done it), many others didn't.

When the proper spoiler is ready I'll address this more in depth.

Great leader is so rare in this game. I got my first great leader at 400 AD just before I wiped out both the Celts and the Carthagians off my home continent. I immediately had him rush my Forbidden Palace near Carthage around 410 AD.

Here is my timeline between 1000 BC - 460 AD. Sorry, I forgot to attach it from the previous post. Note: I have deleted a few important events to make it appropriate for this thread; I will post the complete one will be post in the last spoiler thread. During my first war against the Celts, I pretty much wipe them all out without loosing a single units. The Celts was extremely backward in my game. They got only 1 little naked green man and the rest were spearmans.

I didn't get a Leader until quite a bit (understated) outside the scope of this thread.

I'm wondering if Cracker didn't seed some Barbs next to the Celts or something... considering how backwards they were. Their land wasn't that bad...

I did notice a Barb Horse down there before 3000BC (it attacked my warrior on a hill and died), and Barbs normally don't start showing up until ~2500BC.

Anyone else see abnormally early Barbs down there?

I saw a barb hut down there in 2270BC, and it had a stream of barbarians coming out of it..might have been around for a while, but I'm not sure.

The Celts didn't develop *that* slowly in my game, slower than average for Emperor, certainly, but not completely pathetic.

-Sirp.

Originally posted by Zwingli

4000 BC..... Move warrior north to the mountain revealing a wheat resource just under the fog.....

I think you should get the 'eagle-eye' award if you were using the game's default graphics.

I settled at the start location (so everybody knows what I did, and I'm not 'replaying').

But I took another look at the 4000 B.C. save to see if the wheat was possible to see by moving the warrior north.
The first image is using the default graphics, with an arrow pointing to a single pixle or two that was the wheat. The second is using a graphic modpack that is effectively cheating and which should not be used in any games. Sorry. cracker
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/wheat_gotm19.jpg

The move southwest surely isn't as questionable as the move in last month's game. Zwingli could see the wheat, and several other players have given very good reasons why they moved, and DaveMcW stated that would be his move in the pre-game thread, before anyone ever saw the save.

Moving just because someone wanted less mountains in the city, is a poor excuse. If it was a big mountain range, I could understand it, but not for just 1 or 2 lone mountains. You wouldn't be using every single tile until extremely late in the game anyways. I only worry about anyone that finds the 'perfect' place to settle in every game (when you can't see the bonus food from the start, or by normal logical moves). A game here and there, fine, I don't worry about that, because that is most likely luck.

This is my first GOTM. I usually play on emporer, and i thought i might give this one a try. didnt think about keeping a timeline of events, but here is a brief summary.

I settled on the starting spot, and was delighted to see the game tile. turned capitol to a settler factory and grabbed all the land up to the southern gems. aorund 550 BC, i took out the celts (well, all but a coupla cities) and got the pyramids. the weirdest thing was i was attacking a celtic city near the end of the war and my forces were spread out. I succesfully killed an archer defending a city, and to my suprise, a brave worker decided to "defend" the city. it cost me a coupla turns, but i thought it very strange, because there where no ther defenders. ill try ro scroung up a screen shot

Oh, there were a lot of barbs in my game too, especially to the East of my starting location. I bet the Celts had a tough time with the barbs since it was so near their starting location. Also there were a lot of barb NW of my starting location (near the tundra area), but they didn't bother me because both the Carthaginians and the Celts were too busy sending their warriors there. If I remember correctly, Cracker had mentioned previously in GOTM16 that the AIs make high priority in hunting for barbs; therefore, it would delay their settler production quite a bit.

Originally posted by Luithien
If only I knew that to clear and irrigate the forest with the game would produce 4 food.. sheesh!
Wise is the player who patiently pours through the results of past QSC games to pick up the pearls of wisdom that are hard earned and demonstrated though the efforts of your peers. ;) ;)

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Re: Here is a quick picture of 1000 BC

I have:
9 cities
319 gold
1 granary
3 baracks
2 temples

And 4 techs from the Middle ages.

4 middle age techs by 1000 bc? :eek:

Originally posted by Aloc
My vet archer gets attacked by a barbarian and wins, turns elite and gives me a Great Leader!!! I'm not sure of the exact time, but it was around 2000BC and I rushed the leader home to build the the Great Pyramid in 1830BC. After reading a few of the timelines I realize that getting the GL on the first chance is pretty rare.

You can't get leaders from fighting barbarrians. Maybe you attacked a wandering Celtic warrior?

Gee it strikes me that *lots* of people seemed to be able to capture the Pyramids from the Celts. While I can appreciate that gifting them masonry could have helped them get it, it still seems like they managed to build them awfully often, especially considering what a weak civilization they were. I wonder why that was?

Makes me think that investing so much effort into building them myself might have put me at a disadvantage. Of course I did expand pretty rapidly after getting them.

On settling on plains vs grassland, I seem to remember that DaveMcW posted something a while ago saying that he had investigated the shields produced on the city tile, and had found that when you get above size 6, it's advantageous for the tile the city is founded on to produce shields. So, that's a factor to consider when deciding between settling on plains and grassland.

-Sirp.

It's my first Emperor game, and my first GOTM in about 6 months...

At 1000BC, 7 cities, no wars, most of the north of the continent. Trade has been great -- I seem to have been able to avoid researching techs the AI was researching, so my tech trades have been valuable

By circa 300BC, still no wars, but some more cities, met Rome, became a republic.

I'm wondering if a quick war to conquer the Keltoi and maybe some northern neoCarthaginian cities might bring me close to the ideal number of cities. Then if I can maintain just enough military to discourage the AI from declaring war, maybe I can try to zoom for quick launch. (All assuming I can manage my quick war!)

But then again, Rome is getting quite big and might outpace me for research. Perhaps I need to take them down a peg or two.

(The following minimap is from 1000BC)

@Hurricane: 4 middle age techs by 1000 bc?

NO away from the Middle ages not into the middle ages.

Sorry for the mix up :blush:

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification. :)

I popped a couple of (edit: not huts) barb camps and got several times 25 gold, no techs, maps, etc.. (edit: as is clear after cracker poined it out to me; camps only give 25g). By the upcoming Middle Ages, I had cleaned all of them near my cities out and posted some warriors on hills and mountains, so that there was no fog of war. Thus I had no massive uprising and was able to "defend" my non-southern-border cities with only 1 unit. (At that time, we were at war with the Keltoi.)

PS: The Keltoi imho were also handicapped by difficult terrain. It took a lot of industrial workers to cut all that forrest and jungle once we assimilated their former puny fiefdom.

Here is a slightly trimmed timeline upto 1000BC. I included a minimap shot at 775 BC although at that point I wasn't yet meeting this thread's requirements, however I passed by the other requirements before reaching the final tech in the AA so further minimaps will be posted in the next thread.

A bit long, but I removed my end of 1000BC notes which were quite a bit more lengthy. ;) At the end is the more general events after the QSC period.

(The lines beginning with * are just my comments and thoughts, everything else is just ingame actions.)

4000 BC
- worker south to road and mine to mountain
- warrior north to mountain, spots silk and cow
- settler southwest
3950 BC
- founded Istanbul building warrior
- warrior east to mountain
- * I'm going to do a minimum research until I get some contacts and see who is near (no sense wasting my money). Just checked the space race and I see Carthage and Celts are back (as expected, just as the Ottomans will be around next month).
- * I'm researching Iron so that I don't have any problems trying to get it from other civs, and even with my horse based UU I'll do some early warrior upgrading. This could change depending on who is nearby. Both Rome and Cathage will be tough enemies in the early game, thankfully I don't also see the greeks again.
- 8.2.0 Iron Working (40)
3850 BC
- warrior to explore southeast and south
- * I can see coast or large lakes both northeast, southeast and west. Am I on an island?
3800 BC
- * Southeast is a coastline.
3700 BC
- * Ran into a problem, I can't irrigate the game after its cleared. It's still 3 food once cleared, so 14 turns for two growths. And about 6 turns to irrigate. To save a movement I'll delay the clearing and irrigate the plains first.
- warrior to explore north around cow, expected second city location
3650 BC
- * warrior spots dyes
3600 BC
- met Brennus, has two workers available for trade, only has starting techs
- traded Brennus Masonry, Bronze Working and 30g for two slaves
- * This is good maybe he'll build the Pyramids for me, although the lose of the workers will hurt him more than he realizes.
- * I'm back on schedule for the first settler though since the slaves can now clear the forest and the irrigation will be complete. I figure I'm about a turn off original estimates, but with the added slaves I can maybe develop the rest of the plan quicker.
3550 BC
- * warrior spots a mean looking squid and some heavy fog
3500 BC
- Istanbul finished warrior, building settler
- warrior to explore west and southwest
- * north warrior spots another cow and more silks
3450 BC
- Istanbul (2)
- 7.2.1 Iron Working (30)
- * Tempted at this point to join my original worker, pre-cleared I have 5 production and settler ready in 6 turns. Forest finished in 3 turns will put it a few shields from complete, joining the worker will easily let me finish it when the forest is cleared. I have a wheat and game so growth will not be a problem. I also have 3 shieldlands available and if this was a more fair difficulty I would have no problems getting the Pyramids built. Looks like if I join the worker next turn I will exactly finish the settler when the forest is cleared. I don't really know the timing of that, hopefully it will pop that turn. Guess I'll find out.
3400 BC
- worker joins Istanbul (3)
- 5.2.3 Iron Working (29)
3250 BC
- Isntabul (1) finished settler, building settler
- * Forest shields went after my last turn finishing the settler, but wasn't complete until this turn so I wasted the 6 shields I produced that turn. Pretty early settler though.
- settler heads north to settle cow
3100 BC
- founded Edrine building warrior
- * I could build a settler right away (with the cow and shieldland unimproved) but I would end up wasting a few turns. This way I should get a warrior and only have the settler delayed a couple turns and with less waste.
3000 BC
- * warrior spots west coastline and some spices, and another mean looking squid
- 6.2.2 Iron Working (21)
- * I saved about 3 turns by joining that worker which equates to about 9 food and 6 shields for the city once settled. Its just barely worth it with that in mind, but there are other considerations for getting that second city quickly, namely the relative power versus the AI. I'm in a weak position relative to the bonus production the AI has on this level so if I don't keep up they'll bully me into a hole I could never get out of.
- * I want to also get an archer built so I can harrass the Celts, getting one of their early settlers will be a big win. It looks like I won't get the first but I'll build one anyway and if Brennus decides to settle in my direction he'll lose a settler, maybe his second if I'm lucky. He has plains to his south and jungle to his west. I'd guess he'll send at least one settler north to get some of those dyes, there is a nice location just 2 moves out of his border (northeast) with a dye and 3 river shieldlands in the initial radius plus freshwater. I can't imagine him not doing this, but I also haven't uncovered much south so there may be something there better.
2900 BC
- Istanbul [mms]
- * Slow down growth by 2 turns to speed up production by 2, growth and settler finish in 4 turns.
2850 BC
- Edrine finished warrior, building settler
- warrior to explore local area and defend in case of barbarians
- * southern most warrior spots more incense, forgot to mention earlier a few turns back
- * Brennus founded Mohacs where I figured he would, need an archer in about 8 turns or so to head down there.
2800 BC
- met Hannibal, Brennus may have already met and traded since I can't
- * I just passed Brennus in score, and I am even with Hannibal at 99 points. I'll try to get some early techs in a few turns in peace renegotiations. Best time would be in about 5 turns when I place my third city (settler in 2 turns).
- Istanbul [normal]
- * I'm wasting either way, no sense delaying the growth
2750 BC
- * Lucky strike there, I often forget to calculate the production I get on the turn of growth, I got the settler one turn early from that growth. That's one reason to keep a variety of tiles around for a while so you can get exactly what you need. I expect a forest was worked which would give me that 2 shields I needed.
- Istanbul (1) finished settler building barracks
- * I don't have Warrior Code yet, so I'll prebuild expecting to get it in a few turns. Not a major prebuild since the irrigated game has no shield production anyway.
- settler moves south
- * Bit of a bad choice here, I should try to get the other cow or share the wheat or game, but I want to secure a good capital region but still leave room for Brennus to sacrifice a settler to me. Plus I want to settle quickly so I can appear more powerful and this is the closest and best spot.
- Edrine (2)
- 5.2.3 Iron Working (16)
- * I need some roads near Edrine, I have to move citizen to undeveloped river plain to get gold for entertainment. This is where that joined worker is hurting me.
2670 BC
- Istanbul switched to worker
2630 BC
- founded Uskudar building warrior
- 6.2.2 Iron Working (13)
2510 BC
- Istanbul finished worker, building settler
2430 BC
- Uskudar finished warrior, building settler
- 5.2.3 Iron Working (8)
- renegotiate peace with Hannibal got Warrior Code for 30g
- * This should let me build the archer and get one of Brennus settler, if I'm not fast enough then I'll renegotiate with him and get another cheap tech.
2310 BC
- Edrine (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler west to settle cow
- * warrior spots red (assuming Roman) border
2230 BC
- Uskudar (2)
2190 BC
- founded Aydin building warrior
- * warrior spots Celtic settler heading northwest from Entremont so I won't be able to attack it
- Istanbul switched to settler
2110 BC
- traded Hannibal Iron Working for Alphabet and 40g
- renegotiate peace with Brennus got The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial and 40g for Iron Working and Alphabet
- * Trying the above trade normally the difference was Ceremonial Burial and 20g.
- worker connected dyes, moving northeast to road and mine shieldland
- * Hannibal just settled his third city and my warrior is beside another settler stack, he has been busy and is about to match me at four cities. While Brennus is about to get his third, so maybe he has another coming. I did notice Mohacs went from size 2 to 1 when I stepped in his territory which is either a settler or he rushed a defensive unit.
- 8.1.1 Mathematics (40)
- * I managed to get Iron before any of them so the minimum science worked, I doubt I'll be able to get Math first but we'll see. At any rate I wish one of these guys would start the Pyramids, its not fatal but sure would be nice if they built it. Maybe one of them will get it in a cascade since I'm sure someone is working on the Oracle already.
2070 BC
- Istanbul (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler heads west, will share wheat
- 7.2.1 Mathematics (39)
2030 BC
- * Brennus just finished Horseback Riding
- traded Hannibal Ceremonial Burial for 25g
1950 BC
- Istanbul (2)
- founded Bursa building warrior
- * Celtic settler heads out of Mohacs, he was waiting for a warrior escort. I would have been able to reach it in time with an archer but now I don't want to break the peace treaty. I'm now trying to hedge him in with two warrior I had stationed nearby, maybe help him settle in a spot that fits better with my organization.
1830 BC
- Aydin finished warrior, building settler [normal]
- Uskudar (1) finished settler, building warrior
- * Hannibal just learned Writing and must have traded it to Brennus since they both have Writing and Horseback Riding now, I have neither.
1790 BC
- * Hannibal started building the Pyramids
- Edrine (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler moves west to settle spices
- * There is a pict loitering near Edrine, he won't attack my warrior though.
1750 BC
- Bursa finished warrior, building settler
- Istanbul (3)
1725 BC
- founded Konya building warrior then worker
- founded Adana building warrior then worker
- * I have a nice star pattern around my capital with 4 cities 2 tiles away on the diagonals. I got the west and east since I'll want some moderately good galley production cities.
1700 BC
- Istanbul (1) finished settler, building barracks
- settler heads southeast to tighten up border with Brennus
1675 BC
- Uskudar finished warrior, building settler
1650 BC
- Aydin (3)
- * Aydin is hurting, I have 3 citizens and 1 gold production. Not enough to buy a happy face with the corruption. I need to get it connected. With some better planning I should have been able to get more out of this city with the cow, a couple shieldlands and a forest.
- renegotiate peace with Hannibal got Horseback Riding for 35g
- * I figure peace was worth about 70-80g, Hannibal only had 39g so I took this deal instead.
1625 BC
- founded Sinop building warrior then worker
- Istanbul (2)
1600 BC
- Konya finished warrior, building worker
- Adana finished warrior, building worker
- Edrine (3)
- * Hannibal and Brennus both have Mysticism, not sure what direction the trade went.
1575 BC
- warrior 2/2 dies attacking pict (brave hut warrior)
1525 BC
- Edrine (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler moves southeast to settle silks
- * Hannibal just finished Pottery
1500 BC
- Sinop finished warrior, building worker
- worker connected spices
- Istanbul (3)
1475 BC
- Adana (1) finished worker, building barracks
- founded Kafa building warrior then worker
- Konya (1) finished worker, building barracks
- renegotiate peace with Brennus got Pottery and Writing for 55g
- * I estimate peace was worth about 100g to Brennus
- Edrine (2)
- warrior leaves Edrine to intercept pict coming from west towards Aydin
1450 BC
- Bursa (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler heads south to complete pretty city circle
- interrupted slaves to move them north out of danger from pict
1425 BC
- ouch, pict ransacked Adana and took 52g
- Aydin (4) pop rushed for measely 6 shields, this city is too corrupt
- Istanbul finished barracks, building settler
1400 BC
- Aydin (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler moves east to settle on coast with fish
1375 BC
- founded Ankara building warrior then worker
- Sinop (1) finished worker, building barracks
- Istanbul (4)
1350 BC
- Kafa finished warrior, building worker
- Edrine (3)
1300 BC
- Uskudar (1) finished settler, building barracks
- settler heads southeast to settle gems
- founded Urfa building worker
- Edrine (1) finished settler, building settler
- settler heads north
1275 BC
- worker connect Ankara, northeast to road and mine shieldland
- Istanbul (2) finished settler, building warrior
- settler heads north to settle horses
- Bursa (2)
1250 BC
- Ankara finished warrior, building worker
1225 BC
- Istanbul (3) finished warrior, building warrior
- founded Riza near gems, building worker
- Kafa (1) finished worker, building barracks
- founded Zonguldak, building worker

[snipped to obey message limit]


At the end I had 14 cities, about 16 warriors most of them regular and 2 settlers standing on their chosen home.
I still had an active peace treaty with Brennus so I prepared to wait that out and have my forces ready when it expired in about 2 turns.
If you missed it in the above (easy to do) I did minimum science with Iron, Mathematics and Polytheism and managed to benefit from each. (Iron wasn't minimum, but pretty close.)
I also got contact with Caesar right after the QSC period. Actually Hannibal got it first, but he didn't benefit as much. I had a peacy treaty expiring. At the end of that turn ~800BC I had ~1500g and all three of them were completely broke.

I had to trim my post quite a bit.

I think the Celts did have some barb problems early since around 3600BC I was able to trade for two slaves. I doubt he was at war yet so it had to be barbs. Now I guess it could be sheer chance that he happened to be moving the workers thru his city, but I doubt it. They were there the first turn I got contact, and it seems highly unlikely. My money is on barbs.


Also I cut out my early movement discussion cause it was a bit lengthy (15000 character limit :( ). The main reason I moved southwest was to make good room for my second city which would be getting the much more powerful grassland/cow. And as I said previously the wheat isn't very important especially on a plain. I think my third city I settled to the west and used the wheat continously so my capital never used it. Especially true since it was a bit out of the way for early development (and if you read my timeline you'll see other reasons why the wheat didn't get much attention.)
This is a textbook case where one tile is better at one job than another so the "other" tile is ignored and not used. The game gives 4f, the wheat 3f. And with the few shieldlands I spent 99.9% of my time on one shieldland and the game. In this case 2f2s2g beats 3f1s2g when you have a 4f0s tile available.

So for those concerned, I wouldn't be. I'll be surprised if anyone moves west or southwest and takes advantage of both tiles in any way that their game is much better. Both tiles are limited in production. Late game of course the wheat and game would allow higher production when using the hills or mountains. I think the keys to growth in this start is getting and irrigating the game (and this can't be missed really) and getting that second city with the cow.

The only major impact any choices I made had was choosing to settle south third instead of the wheat. Had I settled the wheat third and not joined my worker my game would have turned out quite a bit differently. Although I'd be highly impressed with anyone building 18-20 cities. I think 16 is very doable (also since I was only 1 turn away from 16.)

Just wanted to say how glad I am to see so many new GOTM players and new posters! If you're new, but still lurking jump in. I'm curious to know what you did/saw.

Originally posted by Jabah
I don't want to start some hate/flame war BUT

I really like to know what was the reasons (except the obvious but not very fairplay one) for some people to move the settler SW and settle THERE next turn while their worker/warrior were exploring another area (ie. they 'discovered' the wheat to go with the game by pure 'luke' AFTER settling).

Jabah

This is what I wrote in the pregame discussion (before 1st of May):

"You get to see the most new tiles when you are moving a unit to the mountain in the East. Therefore, I would move my warrior there. (it still depends a bit where we are located on the world map if I do it)
If this does not reaveal anything promising, I then will move my worker to the west (at worst first best tile improvement delayed by two turns)
If there is still no better site in view, I'm still thinking whether I should build my capitol right away or take a gamble and move my settler to the SW. (grassland with mines is equal to plains with irrigation under despotism)
If there is nothing, I lost a move, if it reveals something it might be a good move."

After moving the warrior East, I saw the deer, I still moved my worker East, saw the wheat and then of course moved my settler SW, so I lost two moves with my worker, but since we are industrial, I thought it does not matter that much.

Ronald

reading this i find myself wishing i was more aggresive early on. i found also that the Celts were easy to conquer.... finished them off about 500ad. did get their great library and oracle though... which was nice.

The quick and low-down

4000bc-warrior to mt (silk), worker s. finds game, settler s/w
rational: the war. only one to move to mts., since I would not settle near them anyway. Even if resource found beyond mts. in N., would cost too many turns to move there. Decided to move wor. s., since its a good spot to develop. Move set. s/w to follow river, probably gonna settle there anyway.
3950-found Sogut, build war., research iron working at 20% for 40 turns and cash. Wor. mine, war. finds cattle.
3800-wor. completes mine, road next
3750-first build(war.) to explore
3550-contact keltoi, trade Masonary+Bronze working+11 gold for Warrior code+ceremonial burial
3450-first growth, bulding temple for early culture
3200-trade gold 75 for Keltoi pottery, switch temple to granery
3100-spot fog...COOL!! For me atleast, since I missed previous GOTMs! Congrates cracker! Work of genius that fog, especially how it doesn't move.
2600-found 2nd city connecting silks
2350-encounter picts
1500-Set to launch pre-emptive strike against Keltoi with recently ungraded swordsman
1450-meet Carthage, trade Iron Working for Alphabet and Wheel
1325-Take Entremont, Keltoi have one jungle city in the west left
850-Meet Rome
610-full contact
****(BEYOND SCOPE OF THREAD)*****

Year turn Text description of turn events
4000 BC 1 warrior E, worker W, settler SW
3950 BC 2 found sogut, science 100% for pottery
3700 BC 7 produce warrior, contact with celts, trade Masonry+BW for CB+WC+10
3500 BC 11 produce warrior
3450 BC 12 reasearched pottery, start researching IW at minimum
3000 BC 21 produce granary
2950 BC 22 contact with Carthago, trade CB+Pottery+75g for Alphabet
2670 BC 28 build settler
2550 BC 31 found city of iznik
2390 BC 35 build settler
2230 BC 39 found city of Uskudar
2190 BC 40 buy the wheel for 88 from celts
2030 BC 44 build temple in sogut
1870 BC 48 build settler in sogut (the worker factory is ready, every 4 turns a settler)
1750 BC 51 Found city of Izmit
1650 BC 55 Found city of Aydin (now I have cities coast to coast to stop celts and carthagians to settle in my northern territory)
1625 BC 56 barrack in iznit are finished (Iznik will now start to produce lots of warriors)
1600 BC 57 Saw first pictish warrior
1575 BC 58 barracks in Uzkudar are ready (the 2nd warrior factory)
1550 BC 59 Found citiy of Antalya
1450 BC 63 Found city of Bursa; Carthago and Celts start a war. (not against me :-))
1250 BC 71 Found city of Edirne
1225 BC 72 Found City of Istanbul
1125 BC 76 Found city of Konya; Researched mathematics; traded mathematics+50g for writing; traded mathematics +WM+160g for mysticism+mapmaking
1050 BC 79 Found city of adana
1025 BC 80 Made contact with Rome; traded communications+WM+mathematics for philosophy and Code of laws; traded COL with celts for HBR+50g; traded HBR+COL with Carthago for 111g;traded Philosophy with celts for 70

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Ronald_gotm19_1000BC.jpg

925 BC 84 There are more civ's (end of part one)

Originally posted by Romulus
[3100-spot fog...COOL!! For me atleast, since I missed previous GOTMs! Congrates cracker! Work of genius that fog, especially how it doesn't move.

Unlike in the previous game, that 1 hitpoint FOG were very tough to kill. I lost two galleys to those silly FOG already. Of course, it could be that FOG in PTW (1.21f) is tougher to kill; I don't know...those FOG just seem a lot tougher these days.

Originally posted by Moonsinger


Unlike in the previous game, that 1 hitpoint FOG were very tough to kill. I lost two galleys to those silly FOG already. Of course, it could be that FOG in PTW (1.21f) is tougher to kill; I don't know...those FOG just seem a lot tougher these days.


Come on! Experienced civ'er like you? should know better than to engage ANY unit with a galley (save perhaps a mortally wounded one or perhaps a barbarian with your elite). Galley is HORRIBLE at navel combat, and to be honest, so are MOST navel units. Thats why I avoid naval combat like the plague even in the modern era.:goodjob:

I could add a nice spoiler here, but I won't...

footnote: anyone ever study the mathematics of naval combat? Seems to be its somehow "unfair" and the advantage seems to be on the side of the defender most of the time? No terrain effects...still...weird.

Thoughts? Civ Masters?

Originally posted by Aloc
I thought that the unit was a barbarian, but I could easily have been confused or just forgot (it was a few days ago). I did not know that barbarians could not give GL's and I waste a lot of effort trying to.

Yes, Hurrican was absolutely correct about that. We can't get great leader from fighting barbs. However, those barbs are perfect for trainning our troop to elite before we send them against the weak AIs in hope for generating a great leader. This method has worked so well for me in the GOTM18 where I got at a lot of them. Sometimes, two of them showed up in the same turn. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case for this game. Since there was very little of land to expand, all the barb camps were quickly gone forever.

Romulus: This is a bit off topic and without straying into spoiler 2 land ;) all I can say is use BSOF (Big o'l Stacks of Frigates). Use the bombard attack to redline the ship and attack with another frigate. This works with Ironclads and destroyers as well. Naval combat with Galleys well that just isn't fun.

Originally posted by Romulus
Come on! Experienced civ'er like you? should know better than to engage ANY unit with a galley (save perhaps a mortally wounded one or perhaps a barbarian with your elite). Galley is HORRIBLE at navel combat, and to be honest, so are MOST navel units. Thats why I avoid naval combat like the plague even in the modern era.:goodjob:

I need to clear a couple FOGs so that I can have a clear route to other things.:) My thinking at the time was that may be Cracker was trying to hide something there. He doesn't just put the FOG every where he likes. So there must be a reason...therefore, I was willing to take some risk. And yes, there was a good reason alright. Of course, I can't talk about that in this thread. Come to think about it, may be it wasn't the FOG that sunk my galley; it could have been a squid hiden inside the FOG or something. Since I got my combat animation turn off, I had no idea what did hit me. Yes, I learned my lesson and I immediately turned the combat animation back on after that.

true....I know thanx.

But you are right...thats for another thread! :D

I also noticed the fog was very hard to kill. And the squids were killed quite easily despite their attack numbers. I saw Roman galleys kill squids quite easily while my galleys fled.

Originally posted by crhmem318
I never even saw a squid. Maybe that's because I only built one galley...
I saw quite a number of vicious looking squids, but most of them in the western seas sinking quite a number of roman et al galleys.

At least in the time period of this thread ...

Originally posted by crhmem318
Also, I'm just curious how people have such detailed timelines in general. Am I the only one who doesn't write down what happens every turn? I keep it all in my head, and I can only remember the most horrible crimes committed against the Ottoman people. Grr, like when the Keltoi founded Mohacs over those dyes to the SE two turns before my settler would have gotten there.

I have Microsoft FrontPage running in the background with a timeline template. Everytime, I encounter something important I switch over to FrontPage. Here is a set of the template that I used to keep track of events in my game:

In my game, the barbs on my land were the bane of my existance..but the squid..they were my saviours. During my campaign against carthage, I had a weakly defended core...and Rome up and declared war on me..sending galley after galley to my weaker cities to the north. At first, I panicked a bit..but was soon loving life as I watched no less than 4 loaded Roman galleys get eaten by squids all over my coast. He managed to land a whopping 1 galley on my coast...whose units were quickly dealt with. Soon after, I was able to sue him for peace...and even got 4 gold in the process. =)

Originally posted by AlanH
Nice. Unfortunately the game totally monopolises my Mac OS X system and will not allow another application any screen space until I pause it.
This is on the best multi-tasking desktop OS on the planet. Sheesh! IMHO, it is a Civ III feature to intercept all keyboard input (app switching). My Mac receives and processes email in the background while I play Civ, as I can verify by the periodic "you've got mail" sound.

Originally posted by AlanH


It's interesting that, while I would seldom attack a non-fortified Barb Warrior in open ground with a Warrior, I seem to win every Warrior attack on a Barb camp. This seems strange because the camp Barb is fortified.

Hi,
I think you get 25% bonus when you attack barbs on emperor, but you get no such bonus being attacked. Though fortification gives you 25% bonus anyway.

No you get 25% bonus, I am pretty sure. Here is a civ3 calculator that I use quite often. Great site when you want to know the odds: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html

We have had plenty of discussions like this on the general discussions forum. I suggest you read some of those threads. You just had a little bad luck.

Hi, this is my first GOTM that I plan on sending in, and my first EVER game on Emeperor. I have played one other Monarch game before, and it was the Russian GOTM, and I was absolutely trounced upon. After that, I never attempted to play Monarch again. Well I saw this GOTM on the front page, so I said what the heck, I can handle that Emperor, and to my surprise, I am actaully competing. Here is a brief summary of my accomplishements and failures.

I settled right away, and built warriors. I met the Carthage, and the Celts, and realized that the Celts had claimed the most land, with Carthage and I behind. During the settling phase of the game, I lost 4 settlers to barbs :mad:. I definitly need to watch that next time. A couple of times I fell behind in the tech race, but was able to get back into it by researching Currency and Literature. With knowing Rome, Carthage and the Celts, I was able to trade my way back into the game. I then proceded to build a swordsmen army to take out the Celts. At this point again, I was behind the game, missing, Philosphy and *a tech I can't remember*. While I was building my swords army, Carthage attacked the Celts. I waited 6 turns, and I unleashed(signed a military alliacne with Carthage) my fury upon the the Celtic cities controlling the silks and Gems. I was succesful, and immediately sued for peace. I got the last two techs needed to propel me into the middle ages. With the tech I got for free(need to keep secret), I traded once again, and now I am the leader in the tech race. Unfortunately, right before I signed peace with the Celts, I re-negotiated peace with Carthage. I thought that might land me something since they were gracious towars me. WRONG! They wouldn't accept anything for peace. I plan on attacking the cities they captured. A GL would be nice so that I could build the FP. I feel altough I have a low score, I am on the up swing and that I might be able to win this one :D!! Wish me luck , and thanks Cracker.

Goonie,

It's great to see you in the game and rising to meet the emperor challenge. Hang with us and be patient and you will get a lot out of the game.

4 settlers is a high price to pay for learning to manage the risk of barbarians better but if you survive you can look back and say "If I could live through that and still come back and spank the bad guys, then if I can keep from feeding the cannibals life will be really grand."

Are you playing the PTW version of teh CIv3v1.29 version??

Do you and Stryder have a side bet going? ;)

Im playing PTW, and no Strider and I don't have a bet going, but maybe we should...

Bet him 5 bucks to see who gets the game set up first. ;)

Thats too mean! Just look at what he said in the chat room.:lol:

<BlueStrider> Wow... This GOTM is hard.... and I haven't even started to play yet!!!

What would the more experienced people do when faced with an undefended town -- do you weigh the reputation hit against the chance to knock the AI back, or just do it?

I would have declared war and razed the city. But that is just the evil war-monger in me. :mwaha: I like killing defenseless scouts, too (if I'm not going for fast science).

If you aren't worried about going to war, and not trying for a diplomatic victory, then do it. If you currently had a gpt deal going on (or any other treaty), then it is a much bigger risk, because you may want to do more deals later on in the game. Having a bad rep (where you can't make gpt deals anymore) does make the game harder.

For the other things: You probably know most of this stuff, but in case there are other new players, they may get some benefits from this.

#1. Yes, entertainers drain resources. They eat food, but supply none. It is almost always better to use the luxury slider. But you have to look to see how many cities are benefiting from the luxury slider. If you have 10 cities, and only 1 will benefit from the luxury slider, then maybe it would be better to just hire an entertainer. But, if that 1 city is building a wonder, then you may want to use the luxury slider. 10-30% luxury rate is probably usual. 30% might be a little high, but usually not higher than that (except sometimes when you only have your capital and it is a fast growing city building a granary, or when you are towards the very end of a war in republic-democracy and you are battling war-weariness).

It would extremely rare that you would want a clown in the capital. Especially prior to 1000 b.c. the luxury slider is pretty powerful if used correctly. Build cheap warriors for military police to help stop entertainers and over-use of the luxury slider.

2. Yes, the governor isn't the best (especially if you want your city to continually stay at +5 food for example). When you start getting many cities, you may want to use them in high-corrupt areas, so you don't need to check so many cities every turn. Download the smiley badges to make it so much easier to see who is happy and who isn't (it's in the graphic modpacks forum). If you get lazy and your city is going into disorder every 10-20 turns or so, then you better use the governor or start paying closer attention.

3. If I'm going at max science, then I just set science at the highest possible rate, while still leaving 10 gold in my treasury (so I don't get that annoying reminder every turn that my treasury is low). Remember to turn it down just before learning a tech and see if you can save some money and still learn the tech the next turn.

4.Yep, if you know which techs take a long time for the AI to research (polytheism, mathematics, currency, etc.). 10%, or a scientist in a high-corrupt town. I usually just cash in the tech for whatever the AI has at that time. Checking with 10 civs (like in GOTM18) every turn can be tedious. Should probably check every few turns or so.

Minor comments on this:

Before creating a clown, see if a specialist is sufficient.

If you do minimum research, set research to 0% while having a scientist.

Regarding turning science down towards the end, I'm not sure whether it wouldn't be better to run e.g. 2 50% turns than a 90/10 combo because of the rounding effects. Any definitive answers on that?

Originally posted by Email10
Reading more posts in this thread I realise there are quite a few who moved the settler SW but very few who mention a reason to do it. Sure, the deer come into play after 10 turns, but apart from this it's hard for me to see how a move sw would be better than a move se (from what we see in the beginning, where deer comes into play immediately) even after scouting with both warrior and worker.

Moving SW from the south put both the Deer and a plains wheat (to the NW) within 10 turns. Those two tiles alone (once the forest was chopped and the deer irrigated) would give you 7 food in Despotism.

I posted my explantion for the move earlier in this very thread. Before moving my settler SW, I moved my free warrior unit west and my worker south...which uncovered both the wheat and the deer. Why I chose to move my worker west from the start as opposed to East or North onto the mountain was simply due to advice given in the pre-game thread about the greater possiblility of a food resource being down river. I got a lot of great advice from reading that thread....and in this particular case, taking DaveMcW's advice proved to be very helpful.

My starting point.
The worker went down the red arrow to the best tile to develop.
I saw the game, and wanted in range of the capital ASAP.
I used the shields from the chop for instant spearman to avoid getting a very early war at emperor.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LAK-308.jpg

4000 BC: After moving the warrior N and worker S, I settle where I am (I don’t see the wheat yet). Start researching pottery at 95% (13 turns).
3750 BC: Warrior built. Change production to Barracks for granary pre-build.
3500 BC: Warrior encounters a celtic warrior. He will trade warrior code and Ceremonial burial for Masonry, Bronze Working and 35 gold. The celts have 2 workers, but they seem out of my price range.
3450 BC: Finish pottery. I hold off selling it the Celts to try to get a worker. Start Iron working at min (20%) science. There are lots of luxuries nearby. W coast warrior heads home to city as Celtic warrior is closer than my E one. I would hate to ruin my granary just to defend my capitol. Production changed to a granary in 8, which should be 6 with forest harvest.
3400 BC: Err...except of course harvesting the forest lowers shields, so now it is 9. Hmmph. Forgot about that. I bet the more experienced players would have timed the clearing with the granary build. This is something to remember to do next time. Worker heads W to work BG. I want the shields. I do some math. I need 27 shields. So if I do 3 turns at 4 shields and 3 at 5 would finish in 6 turns. Since I need to move and mine 3, I need 4 turns until I get the BG to 2/2. So I can use the 2/1 BG for 3 of them. One turn needs to be using a forest. I switch a citizen to the forest for this turn. Then hopefully if I move to the BG I will get it in 6. So I am getting the granary a turn later & have to do excessive mm. Yay.
3350 BC: Move a citizen to the BG to get 2 food per turn. Check to make sure we get granary before we grow.
3300 BC: I trade pottery, 13 gold, and 3 gpt for a Celtic worker.
3100 BC: Granary built. Start building a warrior
3000 BC: Warrior built. S warrior spots Carthage. I have warrior code while he has alphabet. No good trade possible as he only has 9 gold. His warrior is injured. A hut perhaps? or war?
2950 BC: We are "forgotten" on the most powerful civilizations according to Thucydides. Or goal of course is to prove Thucydides wrong. If we can dominate the world, WE can write the history books and ole Juicy sides will himself be "forgotten".
2900 BC: Sogut builds a warrior and starts on a settler.
2750 BC: More silks to the N. Clearly the ottomans have the ability to be the luxury traders of doom. The Celtics settle near the S dyes, but I can still grab two, myself. I realize was putting 2 to science, and not 1. I am not the worlds best at mm that is for sure.
2670 BC: Settler built. Start it heading SE toward the dyes. I will place it at the mouth of the river. This is farther than I would like for a second city from my capitol, but grabs 2 of the dyes with a chance for the 3rd. One of the warriors finds gems. The Ottomans live in luxury heaven. Send warrior with settler and start to build another warrior.
2590 BC: I build a warrior in Sogut and start a settler. N warrior attacks barbarian settlement and gets 25 gold which will really help.
2470 BC: Iznik built just S of the mouth of the river next to 2 dyes. Food is poor here, but I have claimed a luxury. Buy alphabet for 30 + 3 gpt. Celts already have iron working which is unfortunate.
2430 BC: GAARRGG! Sogut riots. Raise luxury rate
2350 BC: Build settler and head it N to go next to cows and directly E of lake. Send warrior with settler and change build to warrior. I finish connecting Iznik to Sogut by road.
2270 BC: Warrior built. A barbarian is seen to the north. Iznik finishes warrior and starts a spearman
2230 BC: Build Uskadar near the cow. Start on a granary. The warrior that guarded the settler attacks the barbarian and kills it. Wake warrior in Iznik to head to the capitol and guard the next settler.
2190 BC Southern warrior climbs mountain showing Carthage territory.
2110 BC: Warrior to S attacks a barbarian and loses. Settler and warrior head SW to grasslands S of the river.
2070 BC: Both the Celts and Carthage have iron working now so no trade there.
2030 BC: Forget to raise luxury rate back up and Sogut goes into disorder. Grrr! I don't know why that is so difficult for me to remember! Some unimportant official is sacked to shift the blame on him.
1990 BC: Dyes are connected to Iznik and Sogut. Found Izmet (not to be confused with Iznik). It is SW of the capitol on the river. I trade 6gpt and 43 gold for writing from Carthage. Both the Celts and Carthage are ahead by the wheel and Iron working.
1910 BC: A barbarian moves within range of a warrior. I attack and lose. The warrior in Sogut moves north to try to get the barbarian and his home base.
1870 BC: Iznik builds a spearman and starts on a worker. I send warrior that was guarding Iznik N.
1830 BC: A barbarian steps onto hills. Warrior tries to attack and loses.
1790 BC: Settler built and heads SW to the square just N of the nearby wheat. Sogut continues to build settlers. Izmet builds a warrior which heads to Sogut and starts on archer.
1725 BC: I finish iron working and start on literature. I see two near Iron. One is already within range. The other I will try to grab next to keep it from the Celts.
1700 BC: Iznik finishes worker and starts on temple for now. Aydin is built near the wheat and starts on a barracks though this could change. I finally kill the barbarian.
1675 BC: Settler built. It heads S to be on the river just SW of the dye. The iron should be within its radius. Uskadar is connected. Another barbarian is seen.
1625 BC: Celts establish a embassy in my capitol. Warrior in Uskadar attacks the barbarian and wins with 1 hp. I establish an embassy in Carthage so I have the possibility of an alliance if the Celts attack.
1575 BC: Antalya built in the jungle near a dye and within 2 squares of the iron. I micro-manage Uskadar slow its growth and speed granary. Izmet builds an archer which is sent past Aydin to find any barb camps. I change Aydin to build a warrior. A barracks is probably not a good choice for it.
1550 BC: Sogut builds a settler. Settler and warrior in Sogut sent directly E of silks. Aydin builds a warrior, which heads toward Sogut. Switch to barracks in Iznik. Antalya is building a worker. Aydin is switched to a worker.
1525 BC: A barbarian horseman shows up near Uskadar. The Uskadar warrior kills it. Settler and warrior move E which is 1 square S of barb camp.
1500 BC: Settle Bursa which gains us 25 gold from the barbarian camp. Bursa guard attacks and is pithed without scratching the barb (this is on flat too, our luck versus the barbarians has been on the poor side so far). Veteran Warrior also almost loses, but survives with one hp.
1475 BC: Izmet builds a warrior which is sent N to Sogut, who sends his warrior north to Uskadar. Warrior near Bursa goes a square N to check for barbarian camps. Both the rival civilizations now have map making on the same turn. Don't think I am going to get tech deals this game by buying techs. They both have too much money lying around.
1450 BC: Warrior attacks and fails to take out camp. Aydin builds worker and starts on a spearman.. Decide to buy map making (forgot to write down the cost) and switch Iznik to a galley. I don't like the trade situation at the moment and would like to find additional Civilizations to trade with. I also get Carthage territory map for 1gpt. This allows me to exchange world maps with the Celts and pick up 3 gold as well.
1425 BC: Build a settler in Sogut and send it NW toward the cow and river. Sogut is now building a spearman. Uskadar finishes its granary and starts on a worker.
1375 BC: Iznik builds a warrior. Uskadar finishes its worker and starts on a settler. I seem to have decent gpt so I buy wheel from Carthage for 17 gold and 4 gpt. This gives me temporary tech parity. Horses will be within 2 of one of the towns I will be building.
1350 BC: Galley built and is sent south. Sogut builds its spearman and starts settler. Archer takes out barb camp. I trade world map for territory map from Carthage. Change Izmet to a barracks. Change Aydin to a warrior to guard the next settler.
1325 BC: I finally connect up my iron. Edirne is built (on N branch of river). Galley spots an island to the W. Antalya builds a worker and switches to barracks. Aydin builds a warrior and starts on a settler. Carthage and Celts now both have mysticism. I buy it for 40 gold and 2 gpt. Carthage is pretty rich. It has 543 gold from all my tech purchases.
1300 BC: Uskadar goes into disorder. I forgot to check again. Sigh. Send the warrior built by Aydin N to suppress the disorder. Galley sees barb galleys and heads back
1275 BC: One of the barb galleys catches up and of course wins and sinks it. Switch Edirne to build a worker.
1250 BC: Bursa builds its worker and starts on barracks.
1225 BC: Sogut builds a settler which heads N. It is going to settler 2 squares SE of the north-most mountain.
1150 BC: Silks connected. Uskadar builds its settler which is sent E to the square NE of the fish for my city. I switch Bursa to build barracks. Take out barbarian camp to the S for the cash. The Carthage research team learns horseback riding. It costs me 68 gold plus 1 gpt to learn.
1100 BC: Sogut builds a settler and heads SE to build a town between Iznik and Sogut. I build Istanbul on the coast near the two fish which is building a galley for now. Also build Konya to the N which is building a warrior. I buy mathematics from the Carthage research team for 7 gpt and 18 gold.
1075 BC: The Edirne warrior kills a nearby barbarian. Aydin builds a settler which is sent to the hill on the coast to the SW. Aydin production changed to barracks for now.
1050 BC: Adana built on the coast between Iznik and Sogut and starts on spearman. Sogut switches to barracks.
1025 BC: Sinop built on the coast on the hill that is SW of Uskadar and west of Sogut. I see 3 more potential spots left for towns. I buy philosophy from Carthage for 4 gpt and 35 gold.
1000 BC: Izmet builds a swordsman. I send it to Adana to guard it. I buy world maps from Carthage world map to see where they have been. I trade for Celts territory map to see if they are connecting up their iron. They are not. This may mean a war when the barracks start coming on line.

Some results:
Cities 12 (5, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2 above size 1).
For techs I have the first 2 tiers + Philosophy, Map Making and Horse back riding. This is almost entirely due to the Carthage and Celtic efforts. Both Celts and Carthage are so rich they instantly know each others techs. I have been buying exclusively from Carthage as I will be fighting the Celts at some point. I thought I would be way behind in culture but the graph is dead even which means no one has yet built a cultural building. Odd, I would have thought the Celts would have built temples.
My army is 7 workers, 8 warriors, 1 archer, 2 spearmen, and one swordsman. Not very strong.
My maintenance cost is 3. I would guess I have 2 granaries and one barracks.

My world so far:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Greebley_map.JPG

1000 BC and later:
Uskadar builds settler which heads to the NW shores. Barracks in Sogut and Bursa. Start building spearmen for towns. Galley built to explore with.
~900 BC: Trade maps with Rome. They own the island I saw.
825 BC: Build Kafa on Southern most tundra on the NW coast.
775 BC: Send galley to explore past Rome. Land a swordsman on roman island which rome declares war to kill.
730 BC: Build Davidiople on the NE most shore in the E most square which is also NE of Sogut. I finish researching literature and trade for Code of Laws and gold. I can research republic in 25 if I raise science. I switch production in several cities to some libraries. I also whip Edirne to complete its library as this will bring horses AND spices into the empire.
710 BC: My galley is sunk by barbarians. Carthage completes the great pyramids. This gives me a reason to attack them in the near future. Antalya and Edirne have libraries
690 BC: Sogut grows to size 7 and I have to raise luxury and lower science to accommodate. I definitely need to connect the spices. Edirne will grow soon and bring it into the radius. Carthage has currency but I can't get it. The price is too high. I hurry a galley. Want to try for the contact advantage.
670 BC: India has oracle. Build libraries in Sogut and Izmet.
650 BC: Library built in Adana.

Boy it takes a long time to catch up when you don't get to the spoiler thread until it's third day!

Just a quick note about my settle times.
4000BC Sogut founded
2590BC Iznik founded
2270BC Uskudar founded
2030BC Izmit founded
1725BC Aydin founded
1725BC Antalya founded
1450BC Bursa founded
1175BC Edirne founded
1050BC Istanbul founded
1025BC Konya founded
1000BC Adana founded
1000BC Sinop founded

I built two granaries although the second one was later on in the cow town. The first six cities all built or are building at least one settler.

I got pottery at max research which proved useful in trade. Then I choose poorly on my min research gambit. Mystism, beaten by Carthage. Math beaten by rome who also had construction but none of the four writing techs? Literature beaten by Carthage. Is it just me or did the AI research not follow the typically order in this game? AI researching math, and literature, not to mention construction before going for any of the republic techs? That is not normal IMHO. Maybe it was a luck hut pop for Rome but still.

I'm definitely not going to score high in the QSC with my tech choices. I also feel like I could have had more than 12 cities if I hadn't gone to war:

Celts had small arms and slow growth. I seized an opportunity to grab 2 unprotected workers in one blow. That started a war that lasted longer than I thought, forcing me to neglect building in lieu of units. I got iron connected and celts didn't. A few upgraded warriors to swords allowed me to raze/replace one town and get mapmaking and a worthless city down by carthage for free. This town is the one that spots the roman galley before the other two civs. Nice added bonus! Got a lot of my gold back (bought some techs) from Carthage for contact.

For reasons that cannot be revealed in this thread, I am only able to tell about the Green and the Brown. :)

We started exactly as announced, by moving the Worker south and Warrior the Hut to the west.

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.den.broeder/ribannah/Civilization/gotm/gotm19/GOTM19_4000bc.jpg 4000 BC

As you can see, this brought both the Game and the Wheat into view, so the location for Sogut was obvious (one step southwest).
Warrior the Hut then went south as the land seemed good in that direction, and the second strategic decision had to be made when we met the Celts in 3750 BC.

Apparently plagued by Barbarians, they had two Workers at home, and we chose these over their two techs.

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.den.broeder/ribannah/Civilization/gotm/gotm19/GOTM19_3750bc.jpg 3750 BC

Warrior the Hut continued south, past Entremont, and met the second rival on our continent: Carthage.

Meanwhile, the Slaves were hard at work, irrigating the Wheat and cutting a forest, and by the time Sogut expanded, it started to grow a lot faster. A Granary was completed, and in 2800 BC Iznik was founded. It immediately started on The Pyramids, profiting from the mined bonus grasslands that it shared with the capital, which didn't need all of them to produce Settlers in 4 turns or Workers in 2.

Sukudar followed and then Izmit, which allowed us to connect the Dyes in 2150 BC.

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.den.broeder/ribannah/Civilization/gotm/gotm19/GOTM19_2150bc.jpg 2150 BC

Next turn, the Ottowisemen discovered Mathematics and we traded for Writing (Carthage) and The Wheel (Celts). We started efforts towards Literature.

All seemed well, until the Carthagians sneak-attacked Izmit in 1870 BC! They lost their Warrior, and more units after that, giving us an elite Spearman. No Great Leader would come forward, but the extra happiness was nice while it lasted.

In 1500 BC Carthage had Map Making and an advantageous trade was made to celebrate the peace treaty, with the Celts throwing in Iron Working for good measure.

Sogut has Iron! In 1325 BC it was connected, and we started to build several Swordsmen, as we noticed that the Celts had not even started to hook up their Iron source. In fact, they never improved Entremont except for a road on one measly tile. That hadn't stopped them from trying for The Oracle in their capital though .... :crazyeye:

In 1100 BC we discovered The Republic, but held off the revolution in favour of finishing The Pyramids, which happened two turns later.

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.den.broeder/ribannah/Civilization/gotm/gotm19/GOTM19_1050bc.jpg 1050 BC

Note that we didn't go for a maximum number of cities in the QSC timeframe. Instead, we concentrated on connecting the luxuries, boosting research. Now that The Pyramids are finished, we can easily catch up. :egypt:

Ribannah,
Two workers in the beginning! I was checking each turn to see if I could buy workers but the uppertunity never came. Out of curiousity, when was The Pyramid finished for you?

They say good players get lucky. Gotm 16, settler out of a hut. Gotm 18, one archer captures two cities + you can buy 5 workers + get an incredible amount of great leaders. Gotm 19, buy 2 workers from the start. I didn't check gotm17.

I had the same opportunity but chose the tech:(

I later grabbed the two workers with a warrior.:)

Originally posted by el_kalkylus
Ribannah,
Two workers in the beginning! I was checking each turn to see if I could buy workers but the uppertunity never came. Out of curiousity, when was The Pyramid finished for you?
In 1050 BC. I try to time it so that it falls within the QSC period. ;)

They say good players get lucky. Gotm 16, settler out of a hut. Gotm 18, one archer captures two cities + you can buy 5 workers + get an incredible amount of great leaders. Gotm 19, buy 2 workers from the start. I didn't check gotm17.
You have to know how to increase your chances. If you don't send that Archer on the warpath or you don't go looking for an early contact, or don't make sure that you CAN get a Settler when you open a hut, or don't send that suicide galley - all the good fortune passes you by.

I've nonetheless also encountered my share of bad fortune. I'd gladly turn in all those later great leaders for a single one early on in just one gotm, as some people seem to get on a regular basis! :mad:

So Ribannah, what is your secret for finishing the Pyramid before 1000 BC? May be you should write an article about it or something. I have tried to time it a couple time, but the best I could get was like after 800 BC.

After reading Ribannah's account, I tried a Pyramids start (something I never do) for fun. I was a bit too cautious, starting construction in the capital around the 30th turn mark (~2400 B.C.) and was able to finish about 1200 B. C. I think I could have gotten one more settler out and still finish by 1000 B. C., but like I said it is something I never do.

Before starting the Pyramids, I built a granary first, then some settlers and a warrior or two. I did not have to resort to joining workers to the capital. The lux slider got up to about 40% by the end of the day. I think a river capital with some decent bonus tiles (cows, wheat, game) can complete the project before 1000 BC by starting before 2250 BC, any later, requires a big push and multiple workers to join.

I had seven cities at 1000 B. C., not terrible, but short of the ten that Ribannah had. I was not able to buy workers despite trying to replicate Ribannah's meeting of the Keltoi in 3750 BC by moving the hut warrior south. I am playing Civ version 1.29 and that probably accounts for the difference.
+ Bill

My last pic was of 1050 BC, with still two turns to go. ;)

The difference is that I didn't build the Pyramids in the capital this time, that would indeed have been easy enough. I built them in Iznik, since the capital was needed as Settler factory.

BillChin, what did the Celts want for their two Workers in your game? I thought Cracker had the price equalized.

The two early Slaves are worth slightly less than half of what a Settler from the first hut would be. Still a significant help.

Moonsinger, one day when I have it all figured out AND have the time, I will write that article. :)

@Ribannah: We both built the Pyramids in the same year, 1050BC. I also didn't build it in my capital: I built it in my second city. My capital built a granary and churned out settlers, and workers to join to Iznik to speed the Pyramids.

It took a great deal of effort for me to get them though. I only had six towns at 1000BC. I'm hoping that the Pyramids build will speed up my growth enough to catch up to everyone else though. Still, it's kinda depressing reading about all those people that grabbed them from the Celts early, when I spent so much effort building them myself!

-Sirp.

This is the first GOTM that I will submit.. I've been playing civ since it came out. I've played a few GOTM previously, but never finished them. Since this is a small map, I might actually finish this time. I don't have a full timeline, I will try that next time :)
since I mostly used autosaves I only have a few reference points, but here is basically what I did.

4000 bc: worker south, and taking DaveMcw's advice warrior west. settler sw to put wheat within city radius.
Sogut starts warrior, research pottery 100%.
1st warrior goes south, 2nd warrior goes east.
After building 1 warrior I started prebuild of granary, and irrigated + road the plains next to the game. The worker cleared the forest, then irrigated. The granary was finished just before sogut grew to size 3. It then only produced settlers/workers for quite a while. At this point I went for a dense build with plans to later disband a few cities. All other cities built warriors/barracks only.
I researched math at 100% followed by currency 40 turns. Then lit 100%.

By this time I had met the celts & carthage, who I traded starting techs with.
I got wc+cb for bw+ masonry + some gold.
alphabet cost me 3 techs and lots of gold from Carthage.

A little after 2000 bc, I saw a message that Carthage started the pyramids, so I knew I had no chance to build those (except capital). The celts also started the Oracle.
I started an early war with the celts using the gold saved from 40 turn currency research to upgrade warriors.
math got me the other level 2 techs.

At 1000 bc I had just captured Entremont. I had captured mohacs, and autorazed two other celt cities. I got 1 city in peace, leaving the celts with a jungle capital. I left the celts alive so I could attack carthage as early as possible.
At this point I had 21 swords most were vet, one was elite. I also disconnected my iron so I could build more warriors.
I had 12 native cities, and 3 useless captured celt cities.
I also had just started prebuilding the great library in sogut (with pyramids) since I was almost done with currency (hoping no one else researches lit too early for a wonder cascade). The map I attached(at least tried to) is from 1000 bc.

My swordsmen all went south to carthage, and on the way I met a Roman galley. The romans did not have contact with anyone else(including celts/carthage). In fact, they never met either of them. This let me get a lot of gold before I started the carthage war since carthage and Rome had researched different techs, and both had some cash.

I took Carthage 2 or 3 turns after they finished the pyramids (which was 710 bc). I lost a fair number of units doing that but also got a couple more elites. I managed to take out the other couple towns west of carthage soon after. I got a great leader sometime around 600 bc (from the attacks west of carthage). I immediately rushed the fp in Carthage.
At this point I consolodated my swordsmen, then took Utica their new capitol (south of carthage) several turns later. I made peace with Carthage in exchange for all but 1 city. Then Carthage decided to go barb hunting with all their mercs. I signed a ROP with them, then took their last city. This was easy since they had sent all their units after barbs. They never met Rome! Everything that happened after this belongs in another thread.

Originally posted by Ribannah
The difference is that I didn't build the Pyramids in the capital this time, that would indeed have been easy enough. I built them in Iznik, since the capital was needed as Settler factory.

BillChin, what did the Celts want for their two Workers in your game? I thought Cracker had the price equalized.

The two early Slaves are worth slightly less than half of what a Settler from the first hut would be. Still a significant help.


First, let me say that I think most players could benefit from trying a Pyramids start on this map. The game is a short one, so there is plenty of time for experimenting.

As to the question, I wasn't clear: I tried to contact the Celts as early as possible after making the identical first turn moves as Ribannah. However, that was about 3500 BC on the Civ III version. By that time there were no workers available, and it stayed that way until Carthage traded the techs that I had to the Celts. Yes, two early workers are a huge boost. Cracker has done a good job in equalizing the versions. There remain some differences in AI and barb behavior between versions, but that is well beyond the scope of what Cracker and company can do or aspire to do.

I tried the start again and did better, with nine cities and the Pyramids in Sogut at 1000 BC. This time I cut it close, cranking out a few more settlers in the capital, starting construction of the Pyramids around 1910 BC, and going negative food to get a few extra shields down the stretch. In hindsight, my choosing the capital is risky, especially on Emperor level, because the capital can not switch to Palace if some other civ gets Pyramids (either with a leader or with the huge build bonuses). The backup would be Great Library and that would not be so bad on this map.

Pyramids is 400 shields, so starting 2150 BC (turn 40) seems a relatively safe time to start construction in a secondary city, needing an average of 10 shields per turn (after corruption if in a secondary city). Depending on tiles, a start at 2000 BC is doable, but any later chances missing the QSC deadline and the huge scoring bonus. Fresh water is a must to make the attempt. Focusing worker activity on the wonder city, joining workers to that city, and liberal use of the luxury slider are all useful in executing this strategy.
+ Bill

OK, I waited until Wednesday to get started on this one for 2 reasons. The first was that I wanted to study the timelines from QSC18 and the second was my copy of PTW was due to arrive on Wednesday ;).

In the pregame discussion I said two things:
- I'll build libraries for culture instead of temples.
- I won't build a granary in the capital.

I did the first but not the second.

Highlights of my QSC:

4000 BC: Warrior moves E onto mountain, spots silks and deer (Thank you cracker! That means there'll be a granary in the capital, 'cause I learned from QSC16.) I doubt there'll be more bonus resources, so I'll go towards the game. Settler moves SW onto plains (stays on river and game comes into first 9 tiles) Worker moves S onto BG

3750 BC: Sogut builds warrior, begins barracks as pre-build for granary. Warrior moves S and spots a warrior of the Celts. We trade Brennus bronze working, masonry and 8 gold for 2 workers. He also has 10 gold, ceremonial burial and warrior code. Both slaves move onto deer

3100 BC: Sogut builds granary, begins settler.

2950 BC: Toynbee has completed his history of the world. The Chinese are the wealthiest nation in the world. We're second and the Romans are third. Our exploring warrior spots a brownish border to the south.

2850 BC: We meet Carthage, We trade Hannibal pottery 86 gold and 1 gpt for alphabet. He also has warrior code and 10 gold. We then trade alphabet to the Celts for ceremonial burial, warrior code and 18 gold. We then trade ceremonial burial to Carthage for 61 gold.

2800 BC: Sogut build settler and starts another. Settler moves toward source of Dyes south of Sogut.

2710 BC: Barbarians appearing from the W and N. Settler founds Iznik besides river, 1 tile NW of Dyes.

2590 BC: Dyes connected.

2550 BC: Sogut builds settler and starts another. Settler moves to the NE.

2470 BC: Settler founds Uskadar on the Eastern coast

2390 BC: Silks connected. Unfortunately it's still outside our borders.

2270 BC: Sogut builds settler and starts another. Settler moves towards western coast

2190 BC: Settler founds Izmit on the western coast, warrior dies trying to disperse barbarian camp to N

2030 BC: Sogut builds settler and starts another. Settler moves toward source of Silks NE of Sogut.

1870 BC: We give Carthage 288 gold for writing, the wheel and iron working. Science set to 80% and we go for philosophy in 10 turns.

1750 BC: Herodotus completes his histories of the world. After Rome and Egypt, we're the 3rd most powerful civilization. Carthage is fourth and the Celts are seventh.

1550 BC: We discover philosophy and trade it to Carthage for mysticism and 110 gold. We trade philosophy to the Celts for 74 gold. Science back up to 90%, losing 1 gpt, we try to discover mathematics (10 turns).

1325 BC: We discover mathematics. We trade maths to the Celts for map making, world map and 25 gold. On the new world map we spot a red border acros the sea to the E. We switch production of barracks in Uskadar to galley (lose 4 shields). We trade maths to Carthage for 108 gold. Literature started at 100% science (11 turns).

1300 BC: Uskadar builds galley which starts running away from squid¡K

1275 BC: <outside of scope of thread> Found embassies in Carthage and Entremont.

1250 BC: <outside of scope of thread :)>.

1125 BC: We meet Rome. We trade mathematics and philosophy to Rome for horseback riding, Ceasars world map and 101 gold (all he has). After that we establish an embassy in Rome. Ceasar seems to be rather fond of legionarys, 'cause he's got three of them in Rome and he's building a fourth.

1100 BC: Our galley sinks in treacherous waters. We discover literature and begin researching currency at 100% (13 turns).

1000 BC: <outside of scope of thread> To Carthage go literature and code of laws for 316 gold and their world map. To Rome goes literature for their world map and 69 gold.

In 1000 BC we have: 14 cities with a total population of 23.
1 settler, 9 workers and14 warriors as well as 2 slaves.
3 contacts and 3 embassies ;)
3 city improvements: 1 barracks, 1 granary, 1 library
gems, dyes, silks and horses hooked up and we're in the process of connecting iron and spices (though spices are still outside our territory)
All ancient age techs except polytheism, monarchy, republic, construction and currency
915 gold
Our score is 387, trailing only Rome¡'s 511...

925 BC: Iron connected. 6 warriors upgraded to swordsmen.

900 BC: Declare war on Celts, another couple of warriors upgraded.

875 BC: Camulodunum destroyed.

850 BC: Currency discovered, construction in 11¡K

800 BC: Mohacs destroyed.

690 BC: Seville (Spain) builds Colossus. Entremont captured.

610 BC: Carthage builds Pyramids. Massive barbarian uprising near Entremont. We buy polytheism from Rome and enter the middle ages....

Wow, well done everybody. I thought I did rather well, but most of you did alot better.
Here's a map of the lands at 1000BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_GOTM19_1000BC.JPG

I tried (and managed) to make a nice ring of cities 'round the capital and outside those cities at three for easy unit movement.

The lands at 270BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/a_space_oddity_GOTM19_270BC.JPG

I did manage to keep at tech parity, first by min science and after literature and libraries doing my own research.

All in all much less hard than I had anticipated, thanks to crackers kind supply of resources.

One thing: My northern city on the tundra has the special interest of the AI, could it be some strange stuff that will known as oil is to be found later??? (don't worry this is not a spoiler, it is still 300AD in my game... just trying my 'crystal ball' act)

Killer_Klein,

I enjoy reading your story.:) I'm looking forward to the next one. May be you should consider starting a web site for your collection of stories. Basically, similar to Zachriel's site (http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/gotm.asp).

Killer_Klein@
Great story. I can see how you'd accidentally post this in the stories thread. It's great and would fit there too if not for the spoiler info.

The gamer in me was trying hard to figure out what actually happened in the game. (Reading between the lines:scan: ) I take it you've been at war with Carthage, only to steal some workers. I also think you managed to flip a celt city.:goodjob: I think I also acquired Richborough without any bloodshed. I gained it in the peace negociations.:lol:

EDIT: I agree with Moonsinger...you need you're own website!

I'd given a lot of thought about my starting moves going into this Gotm. A few months ago, a new player made a post in one of the spoilers suggesting Joining the starting worker into the capital to build a Settler sooner. In general I wouldn't do that, but being industrious and having the bonus Warrior, this seemed an opportunity to do this. From the pre-release, I'd figured out that the worker could mine and road the BG space, move back across the river, build another road and join the capital in time to pop a Settler out on Turn 12 of the game; this is assuming the capital is built on the starting space. Assuming no bonus food space, this is 9 turns ahead of someone else doing a normal 20 turns of growth and building a few Warriors before the Settler. Having the bonus Warrior allows some scouting, and by the time the 9 turns are up you'd rebuild your worker, have additional commerce from 4 spaces being worked, already have a 2nd city nearing size 2, and have built the same number of warriors.

Of course this went out the window once I got the starting game file. Because of my planning, only the Warrior had freedom of action, so I moved it first, to the West (because of the DaveMcW pre-game discussion) and saw the Wheat. The 9 turns just turned into 5, and I decided to forego my plans, move the Settler West, and have the Wheat within the initial city radius. What to do with the Worker? I know I want to improve the BG, but first I want to irrigate the Wheat. So I started on a Road in the starting space. This delays my irrigating the Wheat by 1 turn, which doesn't matter because the capital still takes 8 turns to reach size 2, but it does save a turn in getting back to the BG to improve it, and prepares the starting Plains space for future irrigation. End result is I don't see the game for a while. :rolleyes:

Research: I started at Min Science towards Iron-Working, figuring I'd save my money for Trading. However, in 3600 BC I consulted my Oracles ( the F10-spaceRace button), who told me there were no Expansionistic civs in the Game! Change of plans: research Pottery at 100%!! (Not the best decision process.) Learned it in 3150 BC, started back on IrWorking at 10%.

Celts: just when I was begining to wonder if I was alone, I met a Celtic Warror (3400 BC). Brennus had all of my Techs, so I didn't have any trading power. (In retrospect, he'd alredy contacted the Carthaginians who had Masonry; one of them must have researched Bronze-Working, or maybe Brennus got it from a Hut.) In 3250 BC I wandered by Entremont, and saw 2 undefended Workers. Next turn they were still there, so I declared a quick war and got two slaves. I had two warriors in the area, who fortified in Mountains. In 2750BC I had about 6 Celts around my warriors, so I negotiated Peace, which was accepted, and I traded Pottery and 1 gpt for CerBur.

Carthage: meet them in 2150 BC; buy IrWorking and Alphabet for 7 gpt and 40 gold; start on Math at 10%. We are down the Wheel and Warrior Code.

Back Home: I'd finished a Granary in 2800 BC, and started churning out Settlers (if once every 8 turns can be called Churning.)
2650 BC Iznik founded near Game (which was chopped down while building Barracks, and Irrigated). After building Barracks, Iznik started churning out (there's that churning again) Veteran Warriors.
2150 BC Uksunder founded near NW Cattle on River
1870 BC Izmit founded just north of Sogut (bridge to other Cattle)
1625 BC Aydin founded, North of Game (starts on Pyramids, FP pre-build?)
1525 BC Antalya founded next to Spice (Settler from Uksunder)
1300 BC Bursa Founded (on Gem Lake)
1225 BC Edirne Founded (North, on Lake, with Fish and Cattle, Stlr came from Uksunder)
1125 BC Istanbul Founded (South, on River next to Dye and Iron)
1075 BC Konya Founded (SouthEast, on Dye Lake; Settler from Iznik)

Celts, Round 2: Iron is connected in 1300 BC and lots of Warriors are upgraded to Swordsmen. Can an invasion of the Celts be far behind? NO!! :D Conveniently, a Celtic Warrior/Settler stack is sighted and War starts, gaining us 2 more slaves. Mohacs is destroyed in 1200 BC. Entremont falls in 1075 BC (3 spears defending vs 6 attacking Vet Swordsmen, no losses.) In peace negotiations, we get the Wheel, WarriorCode, Writing, Mysticism, World Map and 2 more slaves. Seeing the World Map option, we go to Carthage, and buy Map-Making and his Territory Map for our WM, 7gpt and 44 gold. I am only down Horsebackriding.

1000 BC, we learn Math, and start on Literature at around 50% Science.

I've included my F3 snapshot for 1000 BC. Just 3 turns later, Rome has founded a town just SE of Entremont, and we make contact, starting a series of Trades:
To Rome: trade 146 Gold and 7 gpt, for CodeofLaws and WM
To Carthage: trade CodeofLaw for 60 Gold (must have been researching it)
To Carthage: trade WM for 55 Gold
To Carthage: trade Comm w/Rome for Philosophy and 229 Gold
To Rome: trade Philosophy for 73 Gold
To Rome: trade Comm w/Celts for 42 Gold

775 BC Learn Literature, start building/rushing Libraries

590 BC Learn Polytheism,Trade Poly to Rome for Construction, to Carthage for Currency. Start on Republic; still need HorseBackRiding, but want to build some cheaper Chariots.

490 BC Wellll, let's just say I meet the requirements to post. More in the next Spoiler :D

I establised my capitol at the starting spot. Not the best of choices but at least I was able to expand faster compared to the Celts. The barbarians did really hurt my early game. I lost 4 warriors, one worker, 52 gold and 60 shields in my capitol during the built of a marketplace. My capitol was ransacked by a horseman that crossed a river without getting a movement penalty so it still had one movement point left.

I'm pretty dissapointed on my 1000BC performance:

9 cities
5 workers
12 warriors
1 spearman
3 barracks
2 granaries
1 temple

Luckily I had quite some cash at that time (806 gp) so I was able to upgrade all my warriors.

A couple of hundred years later the Celts declared war just after my upgrade. I captured their capitol with The Pyramides but I couldn't finish them of although I captured all cities. They had a galley with a settler that was looking for a new place to settle.

The Romans declared war to the Carthagians fairly early in my game. I believe it was Carthago that met Julius. I'm at the end of the requirements of this thread when I got lucky with one of my galleys.

Originally posted by serttech2003
4000 bc worker s to bg, warrior e to mountain. game, silk and wheat close at hand. Gonna get my butt kicked (first time on emperor) iron working started at 100%

I believe that it would take you about 37 turns to discover Iron Working at 100% science. In this case, it would be better to set your science slider at 20% to discover it in 40 turns instead.

This is my tech progress until 1050 BC:

4000 BC Started with Bronze Working and Masonry
3400 BC Pottery, traded for Ceremonial Burial
2950 BC Traded for Warrior Code
2710 BC Mysticism, traded for Alphabet
2110 BC Mathematics, traded for Writing and The Wheel
1700 BC Literature
1575 BC Philosophy
1500 BC Traded for Map Making and Iron Working
1425 BC Code of Laws
1300 BC Traded for Horseback Riding
1100 BC The Republic

I moved the warrior west and found the plains wheat. This is one of the weakest bonus food squares, so it's not enough to convince me to move without exploring with the worker.
Moved the worker south, revealing the deer. It's tempting to build the capital SW, but I need to get my first settler as fast as possible.
Moved the settler southeast.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc3950.jpg

Worker: S, mine, SE, clear forest, irrigate, road, E, road
Warrior the Hut: W, W, W, S, S, S, E, S, contact Celts, S, S, S, S, S, S, S, contact Carthage

3750BC: Warrior
3650BC: Trade Bronze Working + Masonry to Celts for Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial +7g
3550BC: Warrior
3300BC: Finish Pottery at 100% science
3300BC: Trade Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial + Pottery + 42g to Carthage for Alphabet
3250BC: Trade Alphabet + Pottery + 1gpt to Celts for 1 Worker + 3g. They have a second worker for sale but I can't afford it.
3200BC: Settler

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc3200.jpg

2630BC: Trade 2gpt + 72g to Carthage for 1 Worker.
1650BC: Finish Mathematics at 10% science
1650BC: Trade Mathematics to Celts for Iron Working + Writing
1650BC: Trade Mathematics to Carthage for The Wheel + 36g
1500BC: Finish Mysticism at 60% science
1500BC: Trade Mysticism to Carthage for 124g
1500BC: Trade Mysticism to Celts for 54g
1175BC: Trade WM to Carthage for TM + 25g
1175BC: Trade WM to Celts for WM + 4g

Iznik began building up culture, while Sogut cranked out workers in support. Once Iznik was fully improved I changed production to military in preparation for an invasion of the Celts.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc1200.jpg

Sogut's build order
2900BC: Warrior
2390BC: Granary
2190BC: Settler
1990BC: Settler
1910BC: Worker
1830BC: Worker
1790BC: Worker
1700BC: Warrior
1500BC: Barracks
1450BC: Warrior
1400BC: Warrior
1350BC: Worker
1300BC: Worker
1250BC: Worker
1200BC: Worker
1150BC: Warrior
1100BC: Warrior
1050BC: Worker
1000BC: Worker

Iznik's build order
2270BC: Temple
1675BC: 4 Workers join
1325BC: The Oracle
1325BC: 2 Workers join
1000BC: The Colossus



1125BC: Iron connected, 9 warriors upgraded
1075BC: Declare war on the Celts
1050BC: Mohacs captured

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc1000.jpg

QSC results:
5 cities, 1 granary, 1 temple, 3 barracks
9 swordmen
4 workers
3 warriors
2 slaves
1 Oracle
1 Colossus


975BC: Finish Literature
925BC: Library in Iznik
900BC: Camulodunum razed
800BC: Great Leader!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc800.jpg

800BC: Entremont captured
800BC: Peace with Celts for a size 1 city.
730BC: Finish Construction
730BC: Colosseum in Iznik
710BC: Great Library in Iznik
530BC: Finish The Republic
470BC: Anarchy ends
430BC: Finish Polytheism, enter the Middle Ages

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc430.jpg

390BC: Great Wall + Great Library = Golden Age

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/davemcw_gotm19_bc390.jpg

Originally posted by serttech2003

3450 CELTS we trade BW/MAS/30gp for WC/CB; barracks switched to temple still pre-building for grainry
3100 temple done, think i'll take it and build spearman
2900 spear finished, barracks started;



If I read that right you built a temple and then built a spearman. I would consider both of those mistakes that early. The temple just isn't that high a priority especially not before you get that first settler. Instead of the spearman you could have built two warriors. One could be fortified to give the content face that a temple would and the other could be exploring or harrasing your neighbors, or search and destroy for barbs. If you keep the number of units below or at the level your cities can support it will be free, whereas a temple will always have one gold upkeep.


2150 switch Iznik to granary will build them a spear in Sogut;
1990 spear heads to Iznik, another started;


Another couple early spears, you had iron working and iron was close by, build some warriors and upgrade them if you are concerned about defense. If the spear was just for content faces then a warrior is cheaper and has the same effect.

1650 Uskudar founded barracks started; warrior 1 ne; warrior 2 n


1225 Uskudar finishes barracks pumps warriors; w


This is good.


1220 Sogut starts settler; Aydin founded granary started;


Now opinions vary on this but I generally skip many granaries and I especially won't built any this late. Unless it helps early growth or you can't get Pyramids on the same landmass I rarely build granaries.


1175 Antalya founded spear started;


Another spear. I can't really tell how many cities you had at 1000BC or in fact where some of the cities were settled so its more of a guess as to what production was too early or late. But early game spears are pretty expensive, especially if you have iron and iron working and intend to upgrade warriors. Swordman have the same defense of spears but offer much more offense so generally should be a good target to shoot for early game. Meaning you don't need to build spearman. The only time I build spearman early is when defense is a concern, on an island map that is generally never the case.

I did build early spearman in gotm18 but that was because the barbs in that map caused all the AI civs to have units in my backyard so I had to account for an enemy popping up at any time. In addition the Celtic swords were very costly so spearman were more cost efficient.

I expected great games, but I could never imagine they would be this great. I am already looking forward to next gotm. :)

Man...I continue to be blown away by some of you guys..and what you can accomplish so quickly. Am I even playing the same game?

DaveMcW...it looks like you are going to try for a 20k culture win? I am simply in awe of what you have accomplished already....1000 years later than your screenshot of Iznik, and I STILL don't have a city that powerful....

I guess the next thing for me to do to take my game to the next level is grab some of your timelines and try to reproduce these games..

Reading these nine pages has been quite an experience. It's clear to me that there are not only a lot of new players, but also an overall improvement in general gameplay.

Before starting, I decided to play for a space race win. Given that we are on emperor level, I decided to do this by building the GL, letting the AI do the early researching, while I prepped myself for medieval research with the gold the GL saves, and enhancing it with the conquest of the continent, starting with knights and finishing with cavalry.

I built the capital on the starting spot, researchd pottery, and built a granary after irrigating the game. Since Sogut was going to be a settler pump, my second city was built on the coast by the irrigated wheat, tp provide some workers and warriors for policing, defense and exploration. This was because the third city, to be built by the cattle lake, would immediately start work on the GL prebuild. These cities all did what they were supposed to, and dedicating the third to a GW consciously limited my early growth. After that, the plan was to build cities building barracks and units, plus the occasional worker. The next two were built to the south, which both secured me two more luxuries – giving me four in the core – and advanced my borders toward the AI. The next one secured a more northerly luxury, the one after that sealed the southeastern border, and the last one took advantage of the NW cattle.

This gave me eight towns and a settler, along with 12 units and three workers. I believed that I would settle all territory I wanted with 13 cities (which I eventually did, including one encroaching city for the eastern dye). I was quite happy with this until, as usual, I read this thread. Several players dedicated one city to a GW, and still built well over ten. What did I do less efficiently? Sogut built a settler every six turns, which was the same as Ribannah’s capital, for example. Did other players build settlers with some of their other cities? Is there something to be learned about managing a settler pump, once the granary has been built?

QSC score aside, I see the argument that more cities means more research. In retrospect, I also could have built more workers. My military remained very lean – just enough to garrison effectively- and I encountered very few barbs. (I did build one galley, which was promptly sunk by a squid.) I built the GL in 270BC. This is later than some, although obviously on par with the AI in my game. This implies that, despite the emperor level, research could be pushed fairly easily by the human civ. So I may have lost some ground here, by taking the conservative GL route. On the other hand, I entered the Middle Ages next turn, and already had a civ that was ready for republic, with lots of libraries and marketplaces.

With regard to Cracker's question, it seems that the placement of luxuries greatly affects AI development, so ideal placement could lead to a killer AI. And where is the thread that explains Aeson's tile numbering system?


Txurce 1000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Txurce19,1000BC.jpg)

Originally posted by Txurce

This gave me eight towns and a settler, along with 12 units and three workers. I believed that I would settle all territory I wanted with 13 cities (which I eventually did, including one encroaching city for the eastern dye). I was quite happy with this until, as usual, I read this thread. Several players dedicated one city to a GW, and still built well over ten. What did I do less efficiently? Sogut built a settler every six turns, which was the same as Ribannah’s capital, for example. Did other players build settlers with some of their other cities? Is there something to be learned about managing a settler pump, once the granary has been built?
[/URL]

Like I said, I think most players will find a Pyramids start on this map to be a useful learning exercise. My first run at it yielded seven cities at 1000 BC completing the wonder at 1200 BC. Another attempt got me nine cities and Pyramids on deadline at 1000 BC. Both were without the benefit of buying workers or poaching workers. There was some benefit of planning for barb activity.

The start position is quite complicated with a lot of options to try in order to maximize early growth. I found moving the settler SW, mining the shield grass, then irrigating the wheat to be more productive than chopping and irrigating the deer early. It takes two turns to irrigate the wheat, while it takes seven to chop and irrigate the deer. I also tried moving two tiles north to the cow, but that gets the capital away from the river. The SW position in between the bonus tiles is the best, but it may only make a difference of one city or so.

With the small map, industrious and no immediate food bonus, 100% research to pottery, and a granary complete before pop three seems like a no-brainer to me. The settler comes only a couple of turns later than if built at the earliest opportunity.
+ Bill

And where is the thread that explains Aeson's tile numbering system?

I was using the keypad numbering for directions. So 8 is N, 2 is S, ect.

Thanks, Bill, I'm going to try to determine if the Pyramids is more within reach than normally assumed.

Aeson, since Mac laptops don't have keypads (yes, this never ends) I assume I could apply the numbering layout of a digital phone, if I hold it upside down and use x-ray vision, or stand on my head, or...

type the following for confirmation:

789
456
123

8 is north
6 is east
4 is west
2 is south, etc.

Originally posted by Txurce
Aeson, since Mac laptops don't have keypads (yes, this never ends)....;) False criticism never ends. ;) [list=a] Laptops (not only Mac laptops) often have no numeric keypad.
My Mac Powerbook (I'm sure yours also) has a "virtual" numeric keypad accessed via the "fn" key overlayed 789 UIO JKL which works fine in Civ III.
[/list=a]

Originally posted by Txurce
Several players dedicated one city to a GW, and still built well over ten. What did I do less efficiently? Sogut built a settler every six turns, which was the same as Ribannah’s capital, for example. Did other players build settlers with some of their other cities? Is there something to be learned about managing a settler pump, once the granary has been built?
I guess you shouldn't have settled on the starting location.

My capital was 1 tile sw and could produce a Settler every 4 turns and a Worker in 2. I threw in a Library in between which allowed me to (1) research faster, discovering The Republic well within the QSC timeframe, and (2) use the deer to have Iznik grow to finish The Pyramids before 1000 BC as well.

I could have had more cities by 1000 BC instead but that would in fact have slowed me down.

Remember that you need focus to play a good game.

Edit: retracting my positive comment on a certain player's timeline for reasons stated elsewhere.

Just plopping down as many cities as you can does not make your game.

Originally posted by Txurce
Thanks, Bill, I'm going to try to determine if the Pyramids is more within reach than normally assumed.


Pyramids are 400 shields, so starting construction in 2150 BC translates into 40 turns at an average 10 shields per turn to finish at 1000 BC. This is doable in a secondary city, that has fresh water, good tiles (especially shield grass, cow, iron). A player needs to focus workers on improving tiles and may have to join some workers to the wonder city. It is easier and riskier to construct the wonder in the capital. Fresh water is the only absolute requirement (no aqueduct needed for pop 7+).

Easier because there is no corruption. This means more shields and better efficiency for the luxury slider. I started in the capital at 1910 BC and just made the 1000 BC deadline (practice game, not my real game). Riskier because if another civ completes Pyramids, the capital can not switch to a Palace. If all the other decent wonders are taken, a player can end up with something weak or nothing at all.

For players that never build the Pyramids, this month is an excellent chance to learn how. The game is a short one and I expect most players to finish relatively early in the month. It may take a couple of starts, especially for novices, but it is doable.

My outline for this start is to build a granary before pop three, with pottery at 100% research. Build several settlers and a warrior or two in the capital. (Caveat: Other starting conditions may have different starting queues, so don't take this as general instruction.) Start constructing the wonder in 2300 BC in a secondary city very close to the capital or around 2050 BC in the capital. These earlier dates give some margin for error to make it by 1000 BC. Again, focusing worker activity around the wonder city, joining workers to that city, and liberal use of the luxury slider (F1 screen) are all good ideas.

Most players will not match Ribannah's ten cities, plus the wonder, even with their prior knowledge of the map. However, by experimenting with various starting queues and worker moves there is the opportunity to learn a great deal.
+ Bill

I've been playing Civilization since 1996 and even if this is only my second GOTM, I've played the last 6 or 7 but I never manage to finish on time.

Up to 1000bc this was by far my best game ever. You know why? First of all because it was an Emperor game - I play only at Emperor.
But the main reason is that for the first time I decide to make a TIMELINE .
It was a completely different experience. Since I was writing every move I had to think :confused: twice :confused: before making any action. This way I avoided a lot of mystakes I usually do.

To cut a long story short, my reccomendation to average players like I am is FORCE YOURSELF TO WRITE A TIMELINE

I reached 1000bc with 14 cities (yes I know this is a bad result for Moonsinger).
This is my timeline.

Edit: I re-attached my timeline deleted after some server problems

Originally posted by Mark Cutt
I reached 1000bc with 14 cities (yes I know this is a bad result for Moonsinger).

You have done much better than me.:goodjob: Even though we have the same number of cities, you got more territory, bigger Firaxis score, and many other stuffs. Just like I said, my QSC for this month is 'bad'. :cry:

I guess you shouldn't have settled on the starting location.

Easy to say in hindsight, and for those who moved the warrior west.

I've nonetheless also encountered my share of bad fortune. I'd gladly turn in all those later great leaders for a single one early on in just one gotm, as some people seem to get on a regular basis!

Building the pyramids by hand is the most safe way of obtaining the Pyramids. But, by spending those 400 shields elsewhere, you can have more cities or more military (400/30=13+ horsemen for example). It depends on what your aim is. For example, building up military to quickly obliterate your opponent's capital quickly is the most efficient way of knocking down your neighbors, but usually offers few battles in the hopes of generating a leader. Sending military in piecemeal offers more battles, hence more often than not, more leaders (at the expense of wasting shields by building more units that end up being killed, usually). In the Rome game I had warriors fortified just outside Japan's city, so that their archers would be exposed for an easy attack by my warriors (just make sure they don't have roads to use to get the attack initiative). Using horseman (retreat ability) instead of swordsmen, allows your units to at least survive many more battles, and of course, that results in more leaders. I leave the AI capital alone, most of the time, because their capital is building a wonder, so I let them continue to do so and instead focus on other cities, then capture the wonder later. It is very, very, rare that I would attack with regular units. I only build 2-3 regulars for early exploration, then the rest are veterans. And it makes a big difference, not necessarily in number of units, but how often they are seeing battles. I am almost always in constant wars, and that is why I go for monarchy instead of republic, and I go for conquest instead of spaceship. If you obliterate an enemy with 1 elite battle, you aren't as likely to get a leader than if that elite saw 5-6 battles. Getting a leader around 1000 B.C. (sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later) is usual for me, because I fish for leaders. Earlier than that is pretty lucky, but not impossible.

Just plopping down as many cities as you can does not make your game.

True, you have to think about where you place your cities.

LUCK also seems to play a major factor in some people's games. Most of the time they make brilliant moves, then all of the sudden they make a questionable move, that ends up being the 'best move', or what I would call dumb luck.

----

{Bamspeedy, I am going to move this final topic over into the middle ages full map discussion because I think it is important but at the same time it probably is not appropriate here because of the deatails we should discuss. I will appluad you powers of observation there. - cracker}

There seem to be some server instability problems occuring in the referefence tables so this post is an attempt to test and see if the pointers can be stabilized by a new message.

Juar wondering why my timeline and map aren't posted anymore? If I did something wrong let me know and I won't do it again. Is it a server issue?

serttech2003

Something screwy happened this afternoon related to a server interrupt sequence and we lost several pointers to threads and also lost a few posts. If this happens to have effected you please repost the information and any images.

Nothing in this thread was deliberately deleted or redacted so the only explanation is some sort of technical glitch that we just have to live through.

I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't done anything wrong (ie posted info I wasn't allowed to.)

Thanks for all your hard work. This was the first GOTM for me and really enjoyed it and learned quite a bit about playing better. Now I need to lose the last bit of my builder mentality and I be alright.

Serttech2003,

Remember that all successful builders can use their hammers for multiple purposes:

:hammer: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/hammerhead.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/hidebehindwall.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/maniac.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/hidebehindwall.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/maniac.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/hidebehindwall.gif

Bitter-sweet QSC for me. Before playing I read Cracker's great opening game and forestry lessons, which helped a lot--that and Moonsinger's grea Deity tip about buying techs. These really helped my game a lot--thanks!

Unfortunately, I Polished myself by botching a pop-rush Settler, losing 2 pop points and two turns (at 4 pop points, I pop-rushed losing 2 citizens and the since I was down to 2 citizens, I had to wait 6 turns to get up to 3 so I could send the settler out) AND then, the Settler got whacked by a barb--because I was too darn concerned about keeping Sogut happy that I sent my escort home 1 turn fatally early.

But I survived and got further in a GOTM than ever before (Space Loss 1816 but I actually got to the Modern Era for a change).

Thanks, Cracker for a great game!

Finally qualified to join this thread late last night.

Here are some highlight from my game so far. I'll go back and grab some screenies later.

Opening Moves
4000 BC
Warrior (Alf) E - spots Silks & coast (probably)
Worker (Alice) S
settler SW (Get away from mountains and allow 2nd city for Silks)

001: 3950 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Pottery,
Alf SE
Sogut founded - warrior - Wheat & Game with Silks not too far away. Bonus!
Alice road
Pottery @90% (13 turns)

First Contact
007: 3650 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Pottery,
Bert SW - spots river site on coast
Alf SW
Contact with Celts (p) we sell Masonry & BW for WC, CB & 7gp

011: 3450 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Bert SE (mountain) - Gems in jungle (3 lux visible now)
Alf W - looks as if Celt capital is coastal
Res 10% (looks as if I should have adjusted last turn)
Discover Pottery - Iron Working @90% (30 turns)

Start Granary
011: 3450 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Alice mine - E (Game)
Bert S
Alf SW
Sogut warrior (Dave) - granary with 2 bonus food squares available it's got to make sense)

Early Raid
013: 3350 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Alice clear forest (Game)
Bert SW
Alf captures 2 Celt workers (Anan & Bebe) - couldn't resist although it might slow tech
Anan & Bebe N
Dave sets out to guard Alice

014: 3300 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Bert E - to hook up with slaves & escort them N
Anan & Bebe N
Alf S - to pillage mine next turn (Celts built Entremont 1 square away from coast)
Dave repulses Celt Warrior
Alf fights off Celt warrior - regular!
Alf fight off Celt spear - Vet! (my lowly conscript freebie - rises up the food chain)

015: 3250 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Dave fort (guarding Alice)
Anan & Bebe N
Bert NE (will join Anan & Bebe next turn)
Alf pillages mine & road (should slow down the Celts a bit)

016: 3200 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Alf attacks Celt warrior (r, 1/3) W - victory
Bert NE
Anan & Bebe N

Make Peace
017: 3150 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Bert N
Anan & Bebe road (Dyes)
Alf SW
Sign peace treaty with Celts (f -> a) )(they give 3gp) - I think they're crippled, I killed 3 mil and captured 2 workers)

018: 3100 BC science 90%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Bert fort (defend Anan & Bebe - I don't want some barb coming along and snapping them up)
Alice clear - road N
(I think the above deserves amplification:
a) road, road, irrigate, irrigate - costs 8 worker turns
b) move, irrigate, move, irrigate, road - also costs 8 worker turns
But... option a gives me an extra road for no extra cost!)
Alf W - Incense SW (4 lux!)

Second Contact
021: 2950 BC science 90%, lux 10%, research: Iron Working,
Alf S
Contact with Carthage (a) - they have Alphabet but are unwilling to trade :( - they also have 2 cities (but do they have a granary? :) )

Granary Online
023: 2850 BC science 90%, lux 10%, research: Iron Working,
Alf S
Alice road - irrigate
Sogut granary - settler (6 turns)

Holy Cow
026: 2710 BC science 90%, lux 10%, research: Iron Working,
Anan & Bebe road - mine (possible share between Sogut & 2nd city)
Dave NW - spots cow!
Alf S - spots Carthagian borders
Carthage really doesn't want to trade

Dyes (and dies)
032: 2470 BC science 70%, lux 0%, research: Iron Working,
Ed heads to Bert (Pict threatens new city)
Iznik founded - warrior
Dyes hooked up
Alf SW - hits coast
Res 70%
Lux 0%
Bert killed by barb warrior - Iznik ransacked, lost 14gp - Bugger!

Iron Man (with letters)
034: 2390 BC science 10%, lux 10%, research: Mysticism,
Ed fortifies Iznik (defense)
Alf E
Alice road - irrigate wheat
Anan & Bebe road - NE (join Dave)
Res 50% (Iron Working this turn)
We overtake the Celts in Civ score (Carthage 126, Ottomans 100, Celts 98)
No trades avail
Iron Working - Mysticism
-+-
Iron turns up on mountain in Sogut city radius - yippee! Do I hook it up now or wait? Go min research on Mysticism, Polytheism; build warriors and hoard cash for upgrades? Yes!
-+-

035: 2350 BC science 10%, lux 10%, research: Mysticism,
Anan & Bebe NE (dave guards)
Alf E
we buy Alphabet from Carthage (a) for Pottery, CB & 5gp/t

A Tale of Tree Cities
038: 2230 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
Alf NE
Uskadar founded - barracks (this looks like a high prod site with 5 BGs after expansion)
- I'll chop forest after roading to speed it up
Cal fort Uskadar (defense)
Alice mine
-+-
Phase 1 over - looking pretty good for the near future - can settle near Gems, on W coast by river, 4SE of Sogut, 2SW of Cow, 8 SE of Sogut, 3SW of Iznik, 4SE of Iznik to name but a few

I think I've finally arrived at a solid base for expansion. Sogut is now set up for pop growth every 2 turns (+5 food @pop3 or higher)

Production of a settler will occur the turn after Sogut hits Pop 5, wasting 0 shields as we start with 8 shields in the pot :). Alternatively Barracks would be ready one turn later as we hit Pop6 only wasting 4 shields.

We still have 2 (unimproved) grassland and an irrigated plains tile so we could maintain our pop growth every 2 turns if we hook up another luxury and turn Sogut into a City.

I've decided to go with the settler and build a road to the Gems in the jungle. This would also help to block off incursions from the South. Unfortunately the Celts have settled on the East coast so we'll settle 4SE of Sogut to create our barrier AFTER settling near the Cow.

The North still remains unexplored but we haven't seen any other civs send units South so I'm hoping that it is unoccupied (except for barbs).
-+-

In the Groove
042: 2070 BC science 10%, lux 10%, research: Mysticism,
Alf NW - looks like Carthage is barb hunting
****! I left Uskadar undefended - now barb warrior is on mountain :(
Cal to Uskadar, fort
Harry heads for S of Uskadar (escort settler next turn)
Cal fights off barb warrior - Phew!
Sogut settler - worker
The people love me - my new palace expands
-+-
Use Sogut to alternate between worker and settler and Iznik & Uskadar to produce military
-+-

Pen and Paper
046: 1910 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
Alf N
buy Writing from Carthage (a) for 123gp & 9gp/t - steep but should let Carthage (c) speed up research
Celts only able to offer 9gp for Writing so we hold back

Rolling
050: 1750 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
settler heads for S of Cow
Anan & Bebe road - NE
Alf NE - sea bridge 2/3 NE ???
Sell Writing to Celts (a) for the Wheel & 34gp (c)
Iznik warrior (Ken) - warrior
-+-
Probably best to build barracks in Iznik after it reaches pop 3 - it has a
access to 2BG (mined) and there is a forest N to help.
-+-

It's a Riot!
054: 1650 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
John to Aydin (def)
Alf SW
Leo to Sogut (def)
Alice heads for NE of Iznik (clear forest)
Di road (Ken guards)
Barb horse appears N of Uskudar - time to hook up Iron? Not yet
Anan & Bebe mine - road
Celts & Carthage (c) - nothing to trade
Barb horse pillages Silks! Sogut riots
Uskudar warrior (Mike) - warrior

Antalya
059: 1525 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
Antalya founded - warrior
Quentin NW
Alf SW
Eve road to hill by river on W coast
Neil fort Antalya (def)
Di road - mine
John W (guard Carol & Ian)
Celts & Carthage (c) - nothing to trade
Iznik warrior (Sid) - barracks

Bursa & Map Making
065: 1375 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Mysticism,
Wayne 2N
Bursa founded - warrior
Ian W
Oscar heads for Bursa
Flo to Bursa
Alice clear - mine
Di clear - road N (Frank guards)
Eve E
Uzi NE
Ted N
Alf SW
Carol road - road to 2N (Rob guards)
Buy Map Making from Carthage (c) for WM + 184 gp + 12gp/t
Celts (c) can't afford to trade
Antalya switches to galley
DA wants to build FP
Aydin warrior (Xerxes) - settler

Mystics
069: 1275 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Yan W
Carol SW
Ian NW - spots horses NW
Zak to Aydin
Uzi SE
Wayne fort (lookout)
Xerxes W (mountain)
Ted NE
settler to Bursa
Alf SE
Anan road - road to NE of Uskudar
we buy Mysticism from Carthage (c) for WM + 50gp
Celts (c) can't afford Mysticism
switch research to Literature @10%

Real Estate
074: 1150 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
settler 3NW
Flo road N
Anan & Bebe mine - 3NW
Alf W
Charles joins settler
Di & Gina road - road W
Alan joins settler
buy Horseback Riding from Carthage (a) for WM + 101gp + 4gp/t
Sell WM to Celts (c) for WM + TM + 1gp
-+-
spotted some opportunities for a final land grab
-+-
Aydin switches to settler
Uskudar switches to settler
Iznik switches to settler
Sogut settler - settler
-+-
Thucydides ranks us 6th most advanced nation
1. Chinese
2. Spanish
3. Indians
4. Carthagians
5. Romans
6. Ottomans
7. Egyptians
8. Celts
-+-

At Home to Rome
076: 1100 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Sea Mist NE, E, S
Ted fort (lookout)
Xerxes fort (lookout)
settler heads for Uzi
Alf NE
Flo irrigate (Cow)
Carol 2NE
Gina 2NE
Di heads for SW of Iznik
Rome has appeared, as if by magic, on the Foreign Advisor screen! They are on a par tech-wise; have horse and Iron; Incense & Ivory; the same number of towns; 0 gp
we buy WM for WM + 32gp + 2gp/t
Celts & Carthage have nothing to trade (seem to have already got Rome WM)
-+-
Wow! Rome is the Histograph leader by a country mile:
Rome 498
Carthage 268
Ottomans 257
Celts 172
looks as if it's all in culture - they must have temples up the yingyang
-+-
Izmit worker (Iris) - worker
Bursa warrior (Doug) - warrior

The End (of QSC)
080: 1000 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Ewan fort (u/g)
Anan & Bebe road - move to W of Adana
Carol & Flo road - road NE
Eve mine - road N (horse)
Sinop founded (on Iron) - spear
Sea Mist attacks fog E - sinks - Bummer :(
Alf pillages road
Ken fort Sinop (def)
Alice, Di, Helen & Iris SE (Ken guards)
Buy Philosophy from Carthage (a) for WM + 19gp + 4gp/t
neither Celts (C) nor Rome (a) have anything to trade
Sogut worker (June) - settler

QSC Totals
12 towns (settler in place for 13th)
25 citizens - 24 happy, 1 content @0% Lux :)
settlers 1
workers 9
warriors 27
archers 3
slaves 2
Tech 1:
Bronze Working
Masonry
Alphabet
Pottery
The Wheel
Warrior Code
Ceremonial Burial
Tech 2:
Iron Working
Writing
Mysticism
Tech 3:
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Map Making
Horseback Riding
Literature (28 turns left @10%)

Histograph:
Rome 531
Ottomans 287
Carthage 287
Celts 185

Forgot to build Embassies :(

Horsey, Horsey...
083: 925 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
settler heads for 1NW, 1W of mountain (on coast by Silks)
GIna irrigate - road S
Flo road NW
Anan & Bebe road - mine
Alf NW
Eve builds colony on Horse (Oscar guards colony)
Bursa switches to horse
Istanbul switches to settler
Antalya galley (Sea Breeze) - temple

Adding Up
087: 825 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Duncan attacks pict warrior (c) - victory (3/4)
Linda road N to Konya
Kim SE
George SE (forgot forest movement)
Sea Breeze 3 SE
Alf S
June road - irrigate
buy Maths from Carthage for 71gp + 3gp/t
Ewan heads for Antalya
Alan to Davidople (left it unguarded)
Bursa Horse (Henry) - spear

Second Raid on Celts
088: 800 BC science 10%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Henry to Istanbul
Alexmanika founded - spear
Gina irrigate - move to SE Konya
Frank to Kafa, fort (def)
Duncan W
Kim road E
Alan fort Davidople (def)
George nabs 2 Celt workers (Cece & Dede)
George, Cece & dede NW
Sea Breeze SE, E, SE
Alf NW
Ewan fort Antalya (def)
Anan road - road NW
Zak attacks Celt warrior (v) but is defeated :(

World Power
095: 650 BC science 100%, lux 0%, research: Literature,
Res 100% (Literature in 3 turns @ -38gp/t)
Charles heads for Alexmanika
Carthage completes Pyramids - at least it's on our continent
-+-
BIG turn - I now have full world map & contact with all my rivals - I have enough money in the bank to u/g ALL my warriors and I've held back comms from everyone so that I can hopefully play one set against the other.
I'll u/g the swords and then wipe out the Celts with the swords then the Carthagians (probably with Siphahi)
-+-

Looks as if I'm well set up for a win, probably tech-based but conquest isn't ruled out!

I can't believe that Moonsinger and a couple of others topped my 12 cities for QSC. Just goes to show that I've still got a lot to learn :lol:

regards

Ted

Great report, TedJackson! :goodjob: :)

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Easy to say in hindsight, and for those who moved the warrior west.
Or simply wanted to maximize commerce, or to increase the odds by moving away from the mountains.

If you obliterate an enemy with 1 elite battle, you aren't as likely to get a leader than if that elite saw 5-6 battles. Getting a leader around 1000 B.C. (sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later) is usual for me, because I fish for leaders. Earlier than that is pretty lucky, but not impossible.
Getting a leader after 5-6 elite battles is still very lucky. I've had several games in which it took some 60-80 elite victories to produce my first Great Leader. But then I consistently throw a 3.2 on average with a six-sided die, so I have learned never to rely on luck. This doesn't mean I won't try anything, but I attempt to make sure that it won't kill my game if I fail.
The Pyramids are often critical to my strategy. If I want them, I must build them.

Hey

Thanks to Moonsigner and Control Freak for good reviews and since I notice my story isn't hear any longer I will throw a website together I guess for the rest of the story. Part 4 is done but I doubt I will get my website up until maybe mid week with hopefully Part 5.

Thanks

Later

Bernie

I have taken BillChin's advice to replay the game and try building The Pyramids before 1000 bc. (At the same time I wanted to practice my diplomacy skill by trading, since I am usually not very good at it.)

It is quite fun knowing that you can build 400 shield wonders before 1000 bc with a little planning. You need alot of food though (or bonus workers).

One thing that has bothered me a little in my replays is that I could never buy any workers from Keltoi or Carthage before 1000 bc. I am wondering if it has to do with the fact that I am playing http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/civ3.jpg v1.29f. ?

One thing that has bothered me a little in my replays is that I could never buy any workers from Keltoi or Carthage before 1000 bc. I am wondering if it has to do with the fact that I am playing v1.29f. ?

Workers are only available for 2 reasons:
-A worker stopped in the capital as part of a goto command
-The capital is under attack

The first method is very hard to find as you only get a 1-turn window of opportunity. Having the capital on a river increases the chances slightly.

The second method gives a much longer window of opportunity, the workers will stay until all invaders are killed. Usually the invaders will be barbarians. This is where the difference between 1.29f and PTW comes in - the barbarians are suicidal in 1.29f but cowardly in PTW. PTW Barbs can harass an AI capital for many turns before being killed or driven away.

You are right Dave. That is why I think it's a little unfair for v1.29f players in the QSC for example (which by the way affects the rest of the game.) A bonus worker or two early is a real boost to growth and production to me.

The flipside is that in PTW the AI that is under siege from Barbarians becomes hopelessly backward. The Celts did not build any wonders for me to conquer! :mad:

Meanwhile, you could get those two Slaves in vanilla Civ3 by simply arresting them, which I would have done in PTW as well had I needed to.

In view of the many Barbarians, vanilla Civ3 seems the best version to play this month's game. But don't count on it being the same in June! ;)

I don't really see the benefit of taking those two workers from the Keltoi with force early, since then I would have to go to war with them. They had an archer already in the beginning so I would have to build an archer myself or a spearman and would lose many turns building military units that should have gone to expanding my territory and increase production and science etc.

I didn't notice many barbarians in this game, but I scouted with 2-3 warriors pretty early and destroyed many camps.

I still wish I had PTW for this game.

Originally posted by Ribannah
In view of the many Barbarians, vanilla Civ3 seems the best version to play this month's game. But don't count on it being the same in June! ;)
After last month's (GOTM18) experience I was tempted to play this game in vanilla Civ... I spent a little time replaying the Keltoi in 1.29 and was really surprised at the difference. Of course my culture attacks were more successful :) but the barbs were so weak! I also felt that the AI didn't perform as well as in PTW but that might have been coloured by my pre-knowledge of the map.

I'm glad I resisted the temptation as GOTM 19 has been a fun and interesting game... so far. However I'm left with the nagging feeling that playing in vanilla Civ is almost an exploit :lol:

regards

Ted

Originally posted by TedJackson

... However I'm left with the nagging feeling that playing in vanilla Civ is almost an exploit :lol:


With the note that all of us vanillarites have to move all our stacks one unit at a time. :(

I had quite a bit of barb trouble in GOTM18. I'm sure PTW players have it worse - but playing 2 starts even with the same version of the game would lead to different levels of barbs, wouldn't it? I mean, they don't always appear at the same time or in the same numbers? I suppose what the AI's warriors are up to also has an effect.

I've always thought that the benefits of PTW varying the free scientific tech at the start of an era is a huge advantage over 1.29, as it gives a player as many as three occasions to snag one tech, trade it for the other entry level techs, and quickly move on up the tree. I don't know what advantage 1.29 has that matches this.

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
With the note that all of us vanillarites have to move all our stacks one unit at a time. :(
Slow and steady wins the race :)

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
I had quite a bit of barb trouble in GOTM18. I'm sure PTW players have it worse - but playing 2 starts even with the same version of the game would lead to different levels of barbs, wouldn't it? I mean, they don't always appear at the same time or in the same numbers? I suppose what the AI's warriors are up to also has an effect.
Perhaps weak was the wrong adjective. Stupid or mindless would have been better. PTW barbs will pillage your improvements by choice rather than simply impale themselves on your town's defenders so you have to get out there and sort them out rather than waiting for them to come to you. This means you can't just sit there with your spearmen rubbing your hands with glee. You need offensive units to take them out.

My "almost an exploit" comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, perhaps it didn't come across well :(.

There are, of course, differences between Civ & PTW and I have the luxury of choosing which to play. All things considered, I prefer to play PTW.

@Txurce
I hadn't considered this as I only replayed into the middle ages. Again, I wasn't entirely serious about (vanilla) Civ being an exploit :)l


regards

Ted

Originally posted by Txurce
I've always thought that the benefits of PTW varying the free scientific tech at the start of an era is a huge advantage over 1.29, as it gives a player as many as three occasions to snag one tech, trade it for the other entry level techs, and quickly move on up the tree. I don't know what advantage 1.29 has that matches this.

Normally yes, but in GOTM18 and 19 there was only one scientific civ in the game, so the effect of the free tech isn't as strong - in fact, it should be about equal between 1.29 and PTW 1.121.

@CruddyLeper: IIRC, the "J"stack movement command is in 1.29, too, or am I missing something ?

Originally posted by jack merchant

@CruddyLeper: IIRC, the "J"stack movement command is in 1.29, too, or am I missing something ?

You're right, Jack, it is. So you're not missing anything...;)

Thanks folks. I hope I'm not the only one who missed this buried in the readme.txt

(Goes back to banging head against wall...)

Since my first post seems to have been the victim of a server accident, I will repost some ancient age information just to reference from the next spoiler thread.

4000 BC- Move starting worker south to the bonus grassland revealing a game resource. Move starting warrior north to the mountain revealing a wheat resource. Move the settler SW in order to get the wheat into the city limits. (As this has unexpectedly contributed to controversy, here is a "dramatic reenactment" of the wheat discovery)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/wheat_tact.jpg
Expanded to 11 cities by 1000BC having endured 4 riots and 2 mismanagements in the capital due to hasty gameplay. Contacted Rome after the QSC period netting a few techs in trade, and finally brokered Polytheism from Carthage for Republic from Rome to enter the Middle Age in 460BC. During the Ancient age I settled a total of 15 cities and flipped 1 Keltic city as shown in the following screenshot taken at 1000 BC.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/QSC19_tact.jpg

I know I'm just a little regent player in the big wide emperor world (OK - small map, but you get the picture), and altho I'm doing a monarcy SG (Wander 001 , pop around to laugh/suggest), I still have to shake my head in winder at you guys... 11 cities, 14 cities ... WOW !!!

1000 BC I had 6 ... count 'em 6 ... cities. Granted, I could have maybe had 8 if the damn celts cities were larger. About the only "comprable" feat I did with some of you guys was that just prior to 1000bc I captured Entremont, and celt's sued for peace (they had 1 jungle bound city left). And reading the post, I'm not even certain that conquering the celt's was such a good idea!!! *sigh*

Having said that, this still has the potential to be the best game of civ I ever played, maybe better than GOTM 17 ( where I narrowly lost a space race). (Civ 3 anyway).

My rough stat's by 1000 bc :
6 towns
5 workers and 4 slaves
1 settler
3 warriors
3 spear
1 arch (and a legend - captured 2 cities, even tho he remained reg!)
7 swords (4 vet I think)

1 barracks

IW, writing, HBR, Mysti, and 1st level techs.

In the pre-game discussion, I recall people saying that gran for small map emperor wasn't necessary/good idea .... Oh well.

I had hte strangest scnario a little later. After conquering CElt's, I had a stage where, unless I was sqint, I had 12 size 1 cities ( and only those 12) . i.e. all my cities were bascially the same size. Strange or not ? I remember reading someone in pregame talking about keeping city size to 3 to negate unhappiness effects under despt - maybe I just carried it too far ??

Anyway, I'm on my way to war with the Carthagians. PS - celt's dead around 500 bc. At least I won't die without taking someone with me !!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg1.21

Here I am too, late but playing this month!

I started by moving WarriorTheHut east to the mountain. Saw the game and moved my settler SE like a number of other players. And like some others I sent my worker to chop the forest as his first task. After that I followed a different development from any posted so far.

I got my first settler out in 3300BC and sent him S,S,SW to found Iznik where it could share the irrigated game and claim the dyes.

Like a few others I met the Celts fairly early, soon afterward had a chance to trade for two workers, and took it - it seemed better to trade my tech for the workers than for tech. Those workers sure were nice, they resulted in Sogut producing its first settler one turn earlier than it would have without them.

When I'd seen most of the northern region I was surprised at how much room was available for expansion - sure isn't as crowded as many of us expected pregame! I planned to go for a Palace jump and started a Forbidden Palace build at a central location - NW,NW,N from Sogut. A while later when I'd seen most of the starting continent it wasn't clear at all where the Palace should go. The central jungle area didn't look appealing. The Celts didn't have towns in locations where I'd want the Palace. Carthage was too far away and I didn't want to get into a fight with them early on, especially considering Numidian Mercenaries. I ended up settling a town in the central area at the edge of the jungle and preparing it to become the new capital.

I went for a high tech pace, researching at max speed and trading aggressively. I researched Pottery first, then Mysticism. But when I traded for Alphabet a couple of turns later I threw away the investment in Mysticism and started on Writing. Learned Writing, then Philosophy, CodeOfLaws, Republic, Polytheism, Currency. I traded for all other Ancient Times tech and entered the Middle Ages at 610BC.

My status at 1000BC:
17 towns
3 settlers
2 granaries
11 native workers, 2 foreign workers
5 warriors
2 galleys
At that date I was two turns from learning The Republic and also two turns from completing my Forbidden Palace.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sirplebg19-1a.jpg

In 925 I abandoned Sogut and the Palace jumped to Bursa (the southernmost Ottoman town visible in the image above.) I then started a revolution, getting a painful seven turn one. Became a Republic in 750BC.

Rome established contact with me (via a meeting with Carthage I think) in 875BC during my period of anarchy. Turned out my galley was just one turn away from establishing contact with Rome.

I carried on expanding and building up to 610BC when I entered the Middle Ages, my cutoff for this thread. I haven't had any warfare yet but am planning to hit the Celts as soon as I've built up my military a bit.

About moving the settler SW at the start: I don't think it makes much difference. It may be a slightly better start than SE but I think the difference is quite small. A town at the SW position can, with a granary, produce 15 settlers in 60 turns. The setup I used (town SE plus a town further south with a granary and sharing the game) can produce 14 settlers in 60 turns between the two towns.
Comparing the two, the SE approach:
o Builds its first settler sooner.
o Takes longer to get its granary going.
o Ties up two towns pumping settlers instead of one.
o Leaves the wheat tile available for another town to use.
o Doesn't throw away the granary if the Palace is jumped.
o Can produce 14 settlers in 60 turns when up and running, vs. 15 settlers for the SW approach.
I don't think all this adds up to much of an advantage for the SW move.

About the Celts and Rome: As happened for many others in this thread, the Celts were surprisingly weak in my game. And Rome is very surprisingly strong - almost as if she got two settlers from huts? Another odd thing about Rome in my game - she doesn't seem to be building any wonders. That's strange considering the number of strong towns she has.

About barbarians: I didn't have much trouble with them in this game. I didn't build much defense but only got ransacked once. A few patrolling warriors, fast expansion, and a fair bit of help from the Celts and Carthage kept the barbarians at bay. The help from my rivals was especially nice, they had some warriors wandering around the NW for quite a while. My warriors patrolled the areas where their warriors didn't go and northern area stayed fairly clear of barbs. I don't expect to have any trouble with massive uprisings at the new era - there is no longer any unsettled area nearby which can spawn camps.

Ribannah: Wow, you got The Republic in 1100BC, well done, very impressive research!

Aeson: It is great to see you playing this GOTM! It has been a shame that you've been spoilered out of playing them for a while. (A sacrifice Aeson made which many may not have realized - fine tuning the Jason score has resulted in him being exposed to map info in advance in recent GOTMs, meaning he couldn't play them any more than Cracker can :sad: )

Originally posted by SirPleb
My status at 1000BC:
17 towns
3 settlers
2 granaries
11 native workers, 2 foreign workers
5 warriors
2 galleys


Wow, 17 town, 11 workers, and 3 extra settlers by 1000BC! That is a very good start.:goodjob: I'm looking forward to learn more about your specific moves when you publish your QSC.

Yes, very impressive SirPleb!

A sacrifice Aeson made which many may not have realized - fine tuning the Jason score has resulted in him being exposed to map info in advance in recent GOTMs, meaning he couldn't play them any more than Cracker can

Actually cracker lets us start the GOTM's a bit early. I just haven't been taking advantage of it as I needed a break from playing. I had to play the orange civ game though. :)

Originally posted by SirPleb
Ribannah: Wow, you got The Republic in 1100BC, well done, very impressive research!
I find it much more amazing that you are only a little behind in research while you seem to have less citizens (and further away from the centre, too) and you have no Libraries!

Here is my QSC empire (can't post a 1000 BC image in this thread):

2 cities + 9 towns, for a total of 41 citizens
8 Workers, 3 Slaves
4 Warriors, 2 Archers, 3 Spearmen, 1 Swordsman, 1 Galley
The Pyramids
3 Barracks, 1 Granary, 5 Libraries
All ancient techs except Construction, Currency and Monarchy.

I think you are right about the starting move se or sw making not too much a difference. It depends on the exact strategy you have in mind. I'm aiming for Sogut to be my SSC, while you abandoned it. :)

Our empires in 1000 BC are almost as different as can be, but I think we both have great potential.

It will be very interesting to see if we will converge or further diverge!

That is nice indeed by SirPleb, but no d-fense? I see one Carthagian warrior beside a defenseless city and a Keltoi warrior near the capital. I would have been VERY nervous.

Well, I just started this one last night and qualified to post today. As per usual I see several great performances by the usual suspects. Over my head.

But a lot of referenced stuff in not in this thread because of the server glitch I suppose. My timeline won't be here either, as I was using the RufRyder excel spreadsheet and at some point Civ3 leached the last of my memory out and excel crashed, and then I had a kernel crash and couldn't recover much of my timeline because I didn't save from about 3500BC to about 1750bc.

So, all I can say is that I went across the rivers, mined the grassland, then cleared and irrigated the game for a 6 turn settler pump as others have done. I only got about 10-12 cities by the cutoff.

Now, next time I'll try to have 17 towns and 5 warriors instead of 10-12 town and 7-8 swordsmen + 7-8 warriors. Ack, if I tried that......

Anyway, by the cutoff I was about to relieve the Celts of the Pyramids since they were nice enough to build it. I have no idea if my game will good, but again clearly no chance to break into the top ten.

Luck be a lady, I'll need some leaders to juice this turkey up.

It just occured to me that you guys are playing your starts like I used to start in SMAC. No defenders...hmm...

Originally posted by el_kalkylus
That is nice indeed by SirPleb, but no d-fense? I see one Carthagian warrior beside a defenseless city and a Keltoi warrior near the capital. I would have been VERY nervous.
Over time I've become less and less nervous about that kind of exposure. (And also about barbarians for similar reasons.) It can be unpleasant if an attack comes out of nowhere but it isn't disastrous. Given a strong basic setup I've found I can adapt quickly if it becomes necessary, changing production and rushing military. And if no attack happens then the initial build is much quicker. So it is a gamble of course but one which has a good upside and which I think has little downside - if attacked then I'll switch modes and just won't grow so quickly after all.

Things which I think help to reduce the odds of an unexpected attack:
o Keep some gold on hand. I think this is the single most useful thing. It seems to me (no proof of this I know of, but based on a lot of games this is my feeling) that: If the AIs get feisty and decide to attack, they will usually first try extorting something, as long as I have something available for them to extort. So when I play an aggressive builder (weak military) opening, I plan from the start to give in to their demands and to have something available for them to demand.
o When you get stronger than the AIs on the power graph they seem less likely to attack. And/or more likely to attack someone else instead. Aggressive expansion can build up power graph strength. (As it should - a larger empire can survive a sneak attack and switch modes to retaliate, even if it has a small military initially.)
o Build at least a few early warriors. Long ago when I experimented with this style of opening I found that there was definitely a limit. If you build no military at all the AIs are more likely to be opportunistic and hit early on, even right after meeting. And that seems to become more true at higher difficulty levels. The initial few warriors sent out to explore seem to be important in the AIs perception of its chance at a very quick onslaught early on.
o I suspect (again, no proof I know of, just a feeling based on a lot of games) that the AIs are less likely to attack early in the game if the tech pace is high. A fast tech pace seems to keep them busier working on improvements. (And perhaps more "worried" about their military being obsolete? I'm just guessing at why it seems to make them less aggressive.)
o Keep good relations with the nearby Civs. I don't think this is as important as other factors - I have had "polite" Civs lash out for no reason I could see despite this and all the above points. Sometimes it just happens anyway and then it is time to change plans :)

Originally posted by SirPleb
...In 925 I abandoned Sogut and the Palace jumped to Bursa (the southernmost Ottoman town visible in the image above.) ...
I want to see if you or anyone else fully appreciates the significance of this sentence. ;)

Originally posted by cracker
I want to see if you or anyone else fully appreciates the significance of this sentence. ;)

Yes, it was truely amazing.:) Not only that he got 17 towns by 1000 BC but he was only two turns away from finishing the Forbidden Palace which he built from scratch, then jumped the palace immediately after he finished the Forbidden Palace. Of course, this is "SirPleb" so we expect nothing less.:) I still have a lot to learn before I can play like that.

PS: Although it was a great opening, it could have been just a little bit greater if he had made contact with the rest of the civs by 1000BC.

Originally posted by cracker
I want to see if you or anyone else fully appreciates the significance of this sentence. ;)
Hmmm, the most significant thing I can think of is how casual I was about the jump.

In the past I've seldom done Palace jumps. I approached them with uncertainty and nail-biting. This time I did it with confidence. (I did overbuild the attracting city just a little to be on the safe side.) This change is thanks to DaveMcW's research and excellent writeup - thank you DaveMcW! This is a powerful technique now that it can be planned from the outset with confidence.

If that isn't the significance you see Cracker then please enlighten us! :)

You know that I am actually much more of a cut and dried sort of person. It really is related to Sogut and Bursa and a little bit of why I chose to set up that game to NOT begin with the first city as Istanbul.

Originally posted by cracker
It really is related to Sogut and Bursa and a little bit of why I chose to set up that game to NOT begin with the first city as Istanbul.
AHA! I should have read more Ottoman history before playing.

Some history I didn't know before:

1299 Osman Bey establishes the Ottoman Principality in Sogut
1326 Sultan Orhan (the first to use the title Sultan) takes Bursa and establishes the first Ottoman capital there

How wonderful that it was Bursa where my capital jumped! Wish I could claim to have done it on purpose. You must've planned it for me Cracker, putting Bursa at just the right place in the name queue :)

And a bit more history:

1364 Sultan Murat captures Edirne and it becomes the new Ottoman capital
1453 Mehmet II conquers Constantinople which becomes the Ottoman capital under the name of Istanbul

Hmmm, it might be pushing too hard to jump the palace two more times...

awesome ;)

I finally meet the conditions for this spoiler, but will only post to 1000BC now.

I said in a previous post that I would explore West as I thought that there would be coast within a couple of tiles. Wish I had. Instead of course I couldn't resist the temptation to put Warrior the hut on a mountain to the east. This revealed game and silks. After a little deliberation I decided that the worker would go south onto the BG and the settler would go SE so that once cleared I could irrigate the game tile directly. It also gave a nice worker progression from SW to NE improving nearly exclusively BG tiles. Although the Warrior explored North along the mountain range I did not spot the wheat until a few turns later, but still in time to found my second city there.

I did the standard settler factory setup which with a little micromanagement allowed me to build 1 settler every 6 turns. I also built one or two in the wheat city.

I went for the minimum tech gambit but was still the first known CIV to iron working. The iron placement was nice. :)

I immediateley upgraded some warriors to swords and they went south. I replaced warrior garrisons with spears as quickly as I could, upgrading the warriors as I went. I garrisoned every city which was a bit girlie but this is my first full Emperor game so I didn't know what to expect, and also the barbs appeared to be a little stronger than of late. I know this was a mistake, but I learned something.

The celts had 3 techs I wanted, so I traded them 22gpt for them and declared war. I still had warriors to upgrade and I didn't want to become too backward. Although I won't be able to trade for gpt again future tech advances would be gained through the pointy stick method.

As it turned out this was naive. (Translation - stupid). I immediately lost my spice city to a single warrior attack. Of course Brennus will pay in a heavy coin for his temerity, but nevertheless I was not best pleased.

I declared war in the honorable fashion, which meant marching through the jungle for several turns b4 I could take Mohacs and Entremont. I have decided to try not to raise cities at this point in the game to save what little rep I had left and also to maximise the rate af territorial acquisition.

Carthage at this point had built the Oracle and was working on 3 other wonders. Great. Their defences will be poor, and with any luck they will have finished a couple more b4 succumbing to the mighty Sultan whatever-his-name-is.

I'm getting cocky....which inevitably means it's all about to go pear shaped.

BTW. Sir Pleb: 17 cities at 1000BC is not even remotely funny. ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/mb1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/mb2.jpg

Reposted due to server crash - it's not pretty reading anyway...

4000BC Move the warrior E - Sees the Silk. Oho, no need for warrior garrisons if I can hook it up quickly. Move the settler west - sees the wheat. That high risk should pay off in the long term. Irrigate the start tile to prepare a road up to the silk.

3950BC Sogut founded, build warrior. Start research Iron Working at maximum rate - it's the only tech I can guarantee will sell when I meet other Civs, I'll be able to view Iron resource locations and of course for early war potential.

3450BC Population is now 2 - need to garrison the warrior to maintain order. Warrior spots Gem and Dye to the south. Oho, a luxury laden start.

3100BC See a green border - is it the Keltoi? Also an Incense down there but it's way too far to settle.

3050BC Spot the spicesn NW of Sogut - is that an Isthmus on the west side of the continent? Have now explored most of surrouding territory.

3000BC A miner disaster - the square irrigated and roaded by the worker is outside of Iznik's boundary. Set the worker to mining the cow as a punishment.

2950BC Produce my first settler at Sogut.

2900BC Iznik founded, the Silk is connected and I can move the garrison warrior out of Sogut. Start warriors in both cities.

2850BC Confirm no isthmus to west of Sogut. Gold spotted south of the Keltoi.

2800BC A Neo-Carthage warrior is contacted. They have traded tech with Keltoi and know the Wheel as well.

2750BC Carthage is viewed from a mountain.

2630BC My first combat - a Pictish warrior is slain, but the Keltoi get the barb camp first.

2740BC Finish research on Iron Working, start on Poterry.

2370BC My first built warrio reaches the frozen tundra to the south of Carthage. Is that another Civ I can see? It's either Romans or Japs. Oh no, not the Samurai...

2270BC More spices are spotted, in the Jungle SW of Sogut. My first barb camp bonus.

2190BC Spot 2 more dyes close to Sogut - if I concentrate I can grab 1 for myself.

2150BC Pottery researched, all techs traded, the Horse resouce is reavealed. Great, soon my people will enjoy Vindaloo au Cheval.

2100BC A strange sea beast is spooted, as is my first Fog tile. Luckily they are standard,, not extra mean.

2070BC The Keltoi grab the dyes first, building Camoludum-on-Sea.

2030BC Found Uskudar, this will be a unit producing city - so build a Library first to get the extra cow.

1990BC Izmit founded, start a warrior but this will be a settler pump straight after. Another Palace expansion brings the Iron within culture range. I decide to postpone any war until I have a stack of horsemen.

1950BC The Neo-Carthage city of Uttica is viewed at close range. My warrior leaves the territory when asked.

1910BC My northern anti-barb patrols are fully established. Any barb landing can be attacked within 2 turns, securing my cities from the threat of pillage.

1800BC Start another settler in Sogut and Iznik.

1790BC Theveste is constructed, almost trapping one of my warriors within Carthagian territory.

1750BC Finish building worker in Uskudar.This will be my worker pump for a few turns,

1350BC Found Aydin 2 NE of Gems. Start on Worker production.

1325BC Swap Literature for Mysticism and Maths. Start researching Code of Laws towards Republic.

1275BC Lose fight at a barb camp with first warrior - another will attack in 2 turns. Finish Library of Uskudar - now building workers.

1075BC Library of Sogut is complete. Decide to build barracks and produce military here.

1050BC Found Antalya S of Iron. Finish research on COL, trade and start researching Republic but forget to adjust slider.

1000BC Found Bursa-On-Sea, this will be my port for trading luxuries.

7 cities, 5 workers, 8 warriors (2 lost), 2 granaries, 2 libraries. Not a great start but still solid enough.

Other bits; Rome is a cultural superpower. My game has progressed onto 700AD with no sign of warfare at all! Diplo victory seems the best route for me. Dang, that's all I remember...

Hi, I don't understand why people send worker to irrigate at first. We are at Depotism, any piece of land that produces more than 2 foods will be reduced by one. So what's the sense to irrigate? Thanks.

when you get a land to 4 food, then you have (-1) = 3. Refer to the excellent article on starting , by cracker I believe, for full in depth onto what is good, when and why.

Hopefully someone more clued up as to where to find it will post a link for you ...

Originally posted by E*T_ning
Hi, I don't understand why people send worker to irrigate at first. We are at Depotism, any piece of land that produces more than 2 foods will be reduced by one. So what's the sense to irrigate? Thanks.
Irrigating a food bonus will give you an increase in food from that tile. More food = faster growth = more powerful civ :)

If you look at my timeline (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=973652#post973652) you'll see that by 2230 Sogut could churn out a worker every 2 turns or a settler every 4 turns without dropping below pop 3. Edit: providing you built a granary first!

regards

Ted

Originally posted by E*T_ning
Hi, I don't understand why people send worker to irrigate at first. We are at Depotism, any piece of land that produces more than 2 foods will be reduced by one. So what's the sense to irrigate? Thanks.

Plains without irrigation only produce 1 food, so they're worth irrigating even under Despotism.

This was my first GOTM and my first game harder than warlord, so my ancient ages strategy was pretty bad.

First, I moved my settler to the NE between the three mountains so that I could put defensive bombard units on them, and so that I could have the spices in a few turns. Then, I didn't found my second city until 2650BC, and only had 5 cities by 1000BC, and only 9 at 10AD. I also didn't notice the dyes until too late, and the Celts got them all. To get a third luxury, I then had to put a settler behind Celt lines, and secured the source of gems right next to the shore.

In research, first I went for the wheel so that I could see horses, then I made a maximum rate beeline for literature and then for monarchy. I made contact with the Celts early, and with the Carthaginians shortly thereafter. I contacted the Romans when a galley of theirs showed up off my coast. The AI managed to beat me to all my techs except The Wheel by between 5 to 8 turns, so I didn't get any trading value from them. I tried to build the Great Library, but the Celts beat me to it by 3 turns. Meanwhile, the AIs were trading heavily with each other, and entered the middle ages just as I was discovering monarchy.

My military consisted of one defender in every city, plus four horsemen, two swordsmen, and an archer in Sogut, and a galley on my west coast. I didn't go to war in these ages, but the military was very useful for blocking two Carthaginian and one Celtic settler-defender groups from going through my territory to claim a few small north coastal tiles that I didn't have under my borders yet. I finally ended up pulling a few workers from their jobs for a few turns and making a great wall of units across the continent, whereupon the AI gave up and went home.

Meanwhile, after I discovered monarchy, I researched the rest of the required techs in 6-8 turns each, and wound up going into the middle ages about half an age behind in tech.

Originally posted by Wanderer
when you get a land to 4 food, then you have (-1) = 3. Refer to the excellent article on starting , by cracker I believe, for full in depth onto what is good, when and why.

Hopefully someone more clued up as to where to find it will post a link for you ...
That makes sense in general. But I don't see any land producing 3 food nearby. Only flooded plain produces 3 food. All other lands are grassland which produces only 2 food. Maybe I should clean the forest with a game on it? Make it into a grassland and irrigate it? Sounds a good idea! Thanks.

Originally posted by E*T_ning
Maybe I should clean the forest with a game on it? Make it into a grassland and irrigate it? Sounds a good idea! Thanks.

You are right on target! By chopping down the tree, you would also gain 10 shields toward finishing your Granary sooner too.:)

From reading these spoilers it seems my opening moves differ from what most others have done. I started by moving my warrior to the northern mountain, revealing a cow some tiles further away. After some doubts, I decided not to let my worker move to the south, as I had originally planned, since I didn't want to take the risk that no bonus resources were to be seen there, which would waste several worker moves. Didn't spot the game until much later in the game :crazyeye:.
So my settler started a great trek to the north, and Sogut was founded in 3900 BC next to a cow bonus resource.

Initial exploration revealed plenty of luxuries and fair spots for new cities nearby, and after some time the Celts were discovered, who didn't need any of my techs, hinting that they already knew another civ, possibly industrious. As it turned out, Carthage was indeed to the south, and I traded most level 1 techs with them for IW.

My initial city core was established with the 2nd city near the game, 3rd near another cow to the west, and the 4th city profiting from the wheat south of Sogut, however I opted not to build a granary in my capital so expansion slowed down later in the game due to long waits between settlers. Early tech research has been ok, even though Carthage beat me to writing with only 1 turn to go, but they later made amends by researching mapmaking for me, while I went for the path leading to The Republic. Short time after mapmaking, I launched some rushed galleys to the seas, even though the waters were infested with barbs, they went for some AI borders which could be seen from our lands. Even though it was only a short distance, barbs jumped on my galleys from all directions, and I had to gamble and put my last remaining red-lined galley on a sea square to escape pursuing barb galleys. Fortunately for me, my ship survived, and I contacted Rome who where much more poweful than the backwards Celts and Carthage, and I recieved some cash for literature and CoL.

I didn't plan on any hostilities towards my neighbours, but it probably would have been better to play a bit more aggressively for a change, as the Celts were so unbelievably weak for Emperor level, they probably could have been finished with little effort. As it went however, they were still very much alive in 730 BC when I entered the medieval age, while I'm struggling to control corruption in my empire, which is much higher than the maps I usually play on (large). FP has been completed a short distance from Sogut, since manually building it at a distance seems impossible on these smaller map sizes.

This is my best start to date in a game, and I owe it all to the QSC, especially QSC 16. This time I managed to chop the forest down and irrigate the game. ;) I will submit my timeline latter ( I am still proofing it). The deer helped soo much in the growth for me as well as fast expansion, two ealy wars and a suicide galley that survived.

Quick summary

Cities 25
Population 37
1 Settler
2 workers 6 slaves
5 warriors
10 swordsman
1 chariot

I have also met all civs and have embassies with them by 1000 BC. So thank you cracker for the challenge, and thank you to all of the players out there who have helped me to improve my opening play. Now if I can only remain focused for the rest of the game. :)

Wow, 25 cities! You've definitely learned how to expand. :D

But the lack of workers and productive cities must hurt.

But the lack of workers and productive cities must hurt.

It does hurt and this is an area I need to think on some to improve. Outside of my core cities the rest are useless. My main focus was growth only this time I wanted to see how many cities I could get to by 1000 BC. My internal goal before had been about 12 for this point in the game, so I am extremely pleased with this, but by focusing on a short term strategy with no longer end goal I may have hurt myself. I should have had a finish goal for the game from the start (SS, conquest, etc) Not having that will hurt my finishing time from this point forward.

In the tech race I am sure I am behind, same would go for improvements (1 barracks, and 1 granary).

and I have to give credit for two cities to Moonsinger (from a discussion from QSC 16 again). By decalring a war on a civ I could not fight (I had no troops over there) I was able to get two cities in the Peace negotiations. All that for just decaring war and then making peace. I was tempted to try to decalre war on several AI's to see if I could get more, but I played it safe in stead.

Moonsinger I will rename them after you for the tip/help. Thanks again.

Creepster,

Wow, 25 towns by 1000BC!:goodjob: I think you just set the world record of building the most towns by 1000BC.:goodjob:

PS: I'm glad my little trick working out for you and thanks for mentioning me; we can stop thanking each other from now on.:)

Creepster, did you break any alliances for the "Moonsinger War-Peace Free City" aka MooWPFC (c) trick?
I tried it as well this time but it would not work for plain war -peace.
In GOTM 17 I had to break an on-going alliance to make other civs grant me a city during peace negotiations.

OK, I met the conditions as follows:
1. Contact with 'green', 'brown' and 'red' in 2950BC, 1990BC and 900BC. I shall expect to make my next contact in about 10AD I guess. :)
2. Map visibility of the home continent and the 'red' continent in 875BC (via trade)
3. Entry to the Middle Ages (via the Great Library) in 250BC

I actually settled in my start location, and am perfectly happy with it. I moved the warrior (who I christened 'Jabba the Warrior' - the renaming thing makes keeping track of the units for the QSC very easy) East onto the mountain first, since that seemed likely to reveal the most land (I felt there might be more hills/mountains to the N, which would have restricted the view from the N mountain). On spotting the silks to the NE and the game/forest to the SE I decided that I wanted the game in my fat-X. I reckoned that by staying in place the fat-X would expand just as my worker was cutting down the forest (so giving me the 10 shields towards a granary prebuild) and I would then irrigate it. The granary was built in 3100BC, the first settler in 2800BC and I founded the second settler 2 tiles SW, which meant I could swap between the two cities to micromanage the game effect on growth.

I was slightly disappointed to spot the wheat, but am quite happy with my start and the decision process, and would not change it.

Research I ran at the max rate possible (usually 80-100%, depending on the luxury tax requirements) as I wanted to get Literature asap. I have built only one temple, which was in a city bordering the celts (I was expecting a cultural contest, but none).

The Celts were frankly pathetic. I waited until 410BC to attack them, building up a force of upgraded warriors, horsemen and virgin built swordsmen. I had a force of about 12 veteran swords and 6 horses when i attacked. The Celts kindly left some workers near the border, which determined the timing of the attack. It took until 70BC to kill off the Celts - due more to the time to walk through their largely undeveloped land, and waiting at the end to bring up the elites for the final attacks in the vain hope of getting a leader.

The Carthaginians have built the Pyramids, and are not very large - they are only about two towns deep across the bottom of the continent, so a sudden attack has the potential to really hit them.

I was building the Great Library for most of the late Ancient Ages - an never started the FP, expecting to be beaten to the GL. Instead we completed the GL in 270BC and shut down R&D at that point. I'm debating whether to try to annihilate Carthage before they can get too advanced for me, since I only have the two remaining contacts now.

Although the Celtic war produced no leader (now I'll have to build the FP from scratch in the former Celtic lands I guess) they did provide about 12 slaves from worker and settler captures - no towns were razed, since it was hard keeping the Carthaginian settlers away as it was.

I did notice the Celts had about 4-5 settlers when i attacked, and a bunch of workers too, hence all my slaves (the AI disbanded some before I could round them up, too). Maybe the AI saw all the jungle and was waiting to clear it? In retrospect I rather overestimated their abilities. they never even had their single iron connected - I had a warrior in neutral territory near the iron mountain, ready to pillage it, but I never had to. So I never saw any Celtic UUs. I've seen one Carthaginian (Numidian) UU so far.

Creepster, where's that timeline? Even with the Moonsinger-gambit bonus, 25 cities is beyond my ability to calculate. I bet I won't be able to match it, even by duplicating your moves.

I have to try to make myself never again start a GOTM when I'm tired. Not only has this been not one of my best efforts so far, but I also closed my QSC log without saving it first. So no QSC submission. :(

I got nailed by the early barbs. Haven't read the entire thread yet, so I don't know if it was a common experience, but I had a three-hit-point barb horseman running around before 3000 bc. It wound up nailing my worker out of the fog, pillaging a bonus grass and killing the warrior in Sogut before sacking the city for half my gold.

I should've known that start was too good to be true! :) 1-2-3-4! luxes, rivers galore, lots of bonus food (I went SE for the game after sending my warrior east to start) and the nearest neighbor stuck in the jungle --- had to be a catch. The lack of nearby horses I was actually expecting. :)

Anyway, I had 8 or 9 cities at 1000 bc, less than optimal, but not catastrophic, and the ten or fifteen warriors I had stacked in a town south of Sogut by 700 BC were put to good use. :) I had been about five techs behind (not to mention without a complete map of the area), but between pointy stick research versus the Celts, a surprisingly successful late-starting 40-turn gambit on polytheism, and managing to contact civs other than the starting 4 before anybody else (about all I can say about that, I think), I got myself caught up and into the middle ages in front.

I did try one thing I haven't done before, which was to declare war on Rome about 1100 BC, with no intention of actually fighting them, and bribed the Celts to join me with cash. It was hard to tell how much of an effect it had, since I still lacked a map, but it was fun when I finally got down south again to see the razed Celt city. :p Probably made things a bit easier for me later, and certainly slowed down tech a bit.

I'm trying one other thing that I don't usually do, which is using monarchy instead of republic, since I'm trying for a military win by the end of the middle ages and don't plan to spend many turns *not* fighting from now on. I think monarchy does have advantages for early wars, when losses tend to be fairly high.

So all's well. It's not going to be a game I'm particularly proud of, I don't think --- just too sloppy and too much bad luck with that rotten barb horse --- but I'm definitely going to win so that's good!

But next month I really have to try to be fully conscious before playing, again.

(Oh, one lucky thing I almost forgot - Entremont finished the Pyramids with my swordsmen on the borders .... :D )

Renata

@creepster: :eek: 25 cities in 1000 BC?!?!
You'd better write a nice timeline, because certainly everybody's going to want to read it! :goodjob:

Ok, hav e done much better this time . Not great but better.

I am at work andso dont have my QSC log but basically I founded my capital in the start position after moving the wor1ked south and the warrior east.

|I made a few errrs, not researching pottery immediately - I went for iron working, assuming there would be a trade opportunity for it, Took me AGES to get pottery.

Not attacking those pathetic celts earlier, Id thought it would be really hard on Emperor, but when I did go for them it was like knife through butter!

I didnt start the game till yesterday - I made myself wait for the GOTM 18 results and look through the strategy thread. I also played a coupl of practice starts with the Ottomans and tried to be much more disciplined with micromanagement and much more war-like..sems to have paid off

I'm REALLY enjoying this one, The start 'area' was fab - all those luxuaries and iron and horses!!!

Have now got past the scope of this thread, but still alive and doing OK

First the highlights:

It takes a long time to read all the spoilers when you wait until the 15th to join. While reading through I was first quite impressed by SirPleb's 17 towns. Then I was amazed by Creepster's 25!!! - I think I could have gotten 15 if I'd built only settlers/workers - but I got bit by a barb once and built a couple of defensive units. I'll need to read the QSC on what they were doing that I didn't. Like most people I built in the general area of the starting location. Unlike most I did not meet Carthage until nearly 1200BC. With some post QSC trading I caught all contacted AI's in science by the end of the Ancient age.

Good breaks: So far not many - a couple of no hit wins for my archers over Picts and the fact that Kelts built Pyramids and Carthage built Great Lib, will help in the AD when the wars will begin. So far I've played without any non-barb battles. I assume that Rome will become a pain very soon (lots of galleys circling).

Mistakes: I realized when looking at the maps I printed out for 1000BC that I never took advantage (no road/irrigate) of the wheat near Sogut. I probably should build a galley and try to find the other AI's.

What the future holds:

Soon I'll have enough swords/horsemen to have a 2-prong attack on the Celts, culminating with the removal of the Celts and the acquisition of the Pyramids. The convert the Swords to Azap Infantry and the Horsemen to Knights, followed by the removal of Carthage and the completion of continental conquest. A period of peace and interal infrastructure building and upgrading Knights to Siphai, then build some boats and remove Rome, unless a better target presents itself, but thats for Spoiler # 2.

Here's my edited timeline to date:

QSC Portion of Spoiler # 1

3950 BC Sogut founded (S of start) – research Pottery – starts barracks (granary pre-build)
3600 BC Meet Keltoi – trade Bronze Working & Masonry to Keltoi for Warrior
Code, Ceremonial Burial
3350 BC SciAd Pottery – research Alphabet
3000 BC Ottomans #4 on most advanced
2850 BC Sogut completes granary – will build settlers for quite a while
2550 BC Iznik founded (near S dyes) – starts barracks
2310 BC SciAd – Alphabet – research Writing
2150 BC Road to dyes complete (1st luxury) – Iznik switches to Archer (too many Picts)
2030 BC Urskador founded (near NE silks) – starts warrior
1950 BC Izmit founded (near W spices) – starts warrior
1870 BC Izmit sacked – loses 14g
1830 BC Urskador builds warrior – starts worker
1750 BC Izmit builds warrior – starts settler
1725 BC Iznik builds archer – starts worker
1675 BC SciAd – Writing – research Literature – Urskador builds worker – starts barracks
1625 BC Aydin founded (E of gems) – starts warrior
1575 BC Antalya founded (on E coast NE of dyes)– starts warrior
1525 BC Road to silks complete (2nd luxury)
1500 BC Izmit builds warrior – starts worker
1425 BC Aydin builds warrior – begins temple (library pre-build)
1375 BC Iznik builds worker – begins temple (library pre-build)
1350 BC Izmit builds settler – starts barracks – road to spices complete (3rd luxury)
1325 BC SciAd – Literature – research Mysticism – Bursa founded on W coast (w of gems) – starts warrior - Antalya builds warrior – starts worker
1300 BC Urskador builds barracks – starts spearman
1275 BC Brown border spotted – contact with Carthage
1250 BC Trade Literature to Carthage for Iron Working & Wheel + 23g – Trade
Literature to Kelts for WM + 22g (won’t trade map making) – World so far has 4 Kelt & 5 neoCarthage cities.
1225 BC Erdine founded (NE of N cow) – starts warrior
1200 BC Urskador builds spearman – start another
1150 BC SciAd – Mysticism – research Polytheism
1075 BC Istanbul founded on N coast (next to fish) – starts library - Bursa builds warrior – starts library – Antalya builds worker – starts library – Urskador builds spearman – starts another
1050 BC Begin road to iron
1025 BC Konya founded on W horses – starts library
1000 BC Iznik builds barracks – starts warrior (swordsman pre-build)

QSC results
10 Cities – population 21 faces – 8 warriors (7 regular – 1 conscript) – 2 archers (both regular) – 2 spearmen (both veteran) – 140 gold in treasury – have met 2 other civs (Carthage & Celts) – Science: all 1st tier – 3/5 2nd tier + 1 3rd tier (literature) -
Improvements: 1 granary + 2 barracks – 4 luxuries connected – So far no wars!


Post QSC portion of spoiler # 1
850 BC Meet Rome - Trade 80g to Romans for Horseback Riding – First contact with Rome
875 BC SciAd Polytheism – start Monarchy – Trade Polytheism to Rome for Code of Laws, Philosophy, TM & 45g – Trade Poly + Philo to Carthage for Map
Making, WM & 30g – Trade Code of Laws to Carthage for 36g
800 BC Bursa riots (forgot to move luxury slider)
775 BC Adana founded
630 BC Sinop founded
590 BC Istanbul riots (playing to late again)
570 BC Kafa founded
510 BC SciAd Monarchy – research Construction – Camuldon flips from Keltoi - trade Monarchy to Rome for Math, WM & 260g
390 BC Sogut riots (better get remaining science to complete spoiler requirement soon!)
370 BC Trade WM + 30g to Carthage for Construction – research Currency
250 BC SciAd Currency – enter Middle Ages

Spoiler 1 tasks complete

:D

Hmm, number of cities isn't like the end-all-be-all of getting off to a good start. Sacrificing infrastructure, workers, etc just to get a lot of cities is not a very good idea. The only strategy that directly benefits from having a ton of cities is a 100k culture strategy. But even then you have to build those cultural improvements at some point, and the sooner the better. Perhaps the QSC values number of cities/pop points too highly if this is the conclusion people are coming to.

A very general statement:

The more cities you have, the more people you have, the more production you have, the more power(either shields or gold) you have, the more units you can support (under monarchy), the more you can put towards science the better the chance to win the game via any method chosen.

More is better than less!! (except for my waistline :wallbash:

As promised. I have deleted refernces to civs outside of the scope for this thread, So no map either. I will put that in a later spoiler when I qualify.

4000 BC I send the worker to the south to get a better look, this is also the first square I will improve (shield + river). There is game nearby All I can think of is GOTM 16 where I failed to take care of the game properly. Settler moves SW to grassland( no shield) and we an wait the ten turns before we use the game. warriorr explores to the south
3950 BC Creepster founded slider 100% science
3700 BC Creepster builds warrior
3750 BC meets the Celts. Trade Masonry, bronze working and 8 gold for two workers!!!!
3200 BC Trade pottery + 12 gold for ceremonial burial with Celts
Trade ceremonial burial pottery and 5 gold to Carthage for Alphabet.
Trade alphabet to Celts for 28 gold and warrior code
Trade warrior code to Carthage for 13 gold.
2950 BC Creepster builds Granary
2710 BC Creepster builds Settler
2670 BC East Creepster Founded
2550 BC Creepster builds settler
2470 BC South Creepster founded
2350 BC Creepster builds settler
2270 BC South Creepster builds warrior SE Creepster Founded
2230 BC discover writing
2190 BC Creepster builds settler
2110 BC West Creepster founded
2070 BC SE creepster builds warrior, South Creepster builds warrior
2030 BC Celts demand 22 gold we give it to them. Creepster builds settler
1910 BC Port Creepster founded West Creepster builds warrior
1870 BC Creepster builds settler
1790 North Creepster founded
1725 BC Creepster builds settler, West Creepster builds warrior
1700 BC East creepster builds settler
1675 BC E East Creepster founded
1650 BC discover map making, North Creepster builds warrior
Trade with Carthage map making for world map, mysticism, the wheel and 15 gold
Trade with Celts, map making, mysticism, and world map for world map, iron working, and 56 gold NW Creepster founded
1625 BC South Creepster builds settler, SE creepster builds settler
1600 BC West Creepster builds warrior, Creepster builds settler
SW creepster Founded
1575 BC port Creepster builds galley. Trade Carthage world map for 35 gold
1550 BC North creepster builds warrior
NNorth Creepster founded SSouth Creepster Founded
1525 BC NW Creepster builds warrior
1500 BC discover Philosophy trade it to Celts for world map and 50 gold. Barbs destroy my galley ƒ¼
1475 BC Creepster builds settler, East Creepster builds swordsman
1400 BC NW creepster builds spearmen
1375 BC Creepster builds settler NHorse creepster founded
1325 Bc Attack Celts take capital an worker, and settler
1300 BC SSouth Creepster builds warrior, East Creepster builds swordsman, North Creepster builds swordsman EPort Creepster Founded
1275 BC NW Creepster builds chariot, Port Creepster builds galley
Trade code of laws to Carthage for world map and 70 gold
1250 BC Creepster builds settler
1225 BC I rush the galley from west Creepster and send it across the sea on a suicide mission. This is totally for the QSC score and no other reason, time is running out and I have not found any one outside of my continent. I am hoping to find a landmass and not to sink.
1200 BC Galley makes it across the sea to contact #### Yea!! I trade code of laws, philosophy map making for horseback riding, world map, contact with ####, and 3 gold
Trade with #### code of laws, philosophy, world map for contact with ####, world map, and 170 gold, Trade with #### contact with #### for philosophy.
Trade with #### for mathematics 160 gold, I give them philosophy, code of laws and world map. I form an alliance with #### against #### and declare war on ####. My hope is to get at least one city in the peace negotiation
1175 BC We take Lugdunum from the Celts.
1150 Bc East creepster builds settler SSWW Creepster founded Cow Creepster founded We contact Red!!!! I trade territory map and Mathematics for world map, and 109 gold Embassies established in all cities!! I did some of this earlier but forgot how many turns ago.
1125 BC Creepster builds settler
1100 BC attack new Celts capital and try fishing for a leader with my one elite. Nothing. I loose two swords and end up destroying the city. I have better luck with Mohacs and manage to take it. The Celts only have one city left and it is a hike so I settle for peace, in return I get worker 198 gold and world map. They will die soon.
1075 BC SE Creepster builds settler, Squid attacks and sinks my galley, Entremont builds worker. EEN Creepster Founded. Trade with #### world map for 45 gold and their world map. Trade with #### I give math, and world map for Polytheism. I trade poly theism to Spain for 39 gold
1050 Bc E Port Creepster builds warrior. EEE Creepster founded. North Creepster builds horseman. SSouth Creepster builds warrior. No trades Egypt still wont talk to me yet.
1025 BC Central Port Creepster founded.
1000 BC Creepster builds Settler. Make Peace with #### for El-Armans, Byblos, world map and 39 gold. Trade polytheism to Red for 39 gold. NNN Creepster founded

As a few people have pointed out more cities are not always better, but it is what I wanted to do this time. My general approach has always been to build as many cities and get as much territory as soon as possible and then focus on the win. This is my fastest start yet, but does not ensure an early win. It does help out with extra production value, but it is offset by the corruption. Two of the cities gained are on the other continent though and with a republic government I should be able to buy my way into doing something with them. Next spoiler for more info if it works out.

With the game and then the wheat for my capital I wanted to see just how many cities I could get. And most important for me, it was fun. :)

It all began to go the shape of the pear immediately after arranging peace with the Celts. I wanted their techs, so I had to leave them a city. I couldn't give them a tundra town so I had to let them keep Camaludunum, right in the middle of the map.

I then marched on Carthage. Of course Camoludunum expanded leaving the stack in the middle of Celtish territory. So the stack was auto-retreated two tiles, and in the lost two turns Carthage managed to completely barricade the path to their capital with units. Really frustrating.

When I eventually got there, Several things happened at once.
I declared against Carthage (nicely), the end of era (which I wasn't at) uprising started from 6 camps, I started a 6 turn stretch of anarchy and all the other Civs bar 1 declared on me.

Tricky.

Other than the QSC part of the Roman game I've not played Emperor b4. It really is fun :rolleyes:

I would think that crashing through the city ceiling as Creepster did would do more good than bad. But I want to replay it mainly to see how it's physically possible because I have no clue how to even approach that number. It's by far the weakest part of my game, and I'm bound to learn something that will help me expand better than I do presently.

That is, if I don't get utterly confused by Creepster's megalomaniacal city naming style.

25 cities!!??!! WOW :D :lol: :cool: That'll be a hard record to beat!! Especially since this month there are 4 bonus food sources near the starting position, which wont happen very often.

Creepster finished his granary on turn 21. Assuming an irrigated Games space and Wheat space, it's possible to get a settler every 4 turns for 14 max possible. (I think I counted 12, but it's easy to get the Creepsters mixed up ;) ) With the starting city, and the 2 cities gained through peace negotiations, that's a max of 17 requiring the next few cities to build another 8 settlers to get to 25. (I think Creepster forced out another 10 settlers.) Many folks might get 8 cities total during the QSC!!!

One of the key features of this approach was trading for the 2 additional workers! This allowed improvements without losing population points. :goodjob: (Of course, I, and others, got those workers for free; but I didn't found my capital in the best location for growth.) Interesting opening.

Perhaps the QSC values number of cities/pop points too highly if this is the conclusion people are coming to.

Just about any QSC value is going to be off, since there is a cut-off date. There really isn't away around this, so QSC scores shouldn't be taken *too* seriously.

Spacing cities farther apart is better for long-term growth/production and late victories (spaceship/diplo). But it takes longer to get these cities up and running for that late game power. ICS can usually get farther in the tech tree very early in the game, but it struggles later in the game because of corruption. It can still cruise along at a decent pace, but not 4 turns/tech until you have 100's of cities and railroads/irrigation everywhere. When using ICS I always struggle through the middle ages and start of the industrial age, but once I get everything irrigated and railroaded, then I'm back up to max speed (in science).

Much of the infrastructure doesn't pay off until after 1000 B.C., and the only way to reward people for building infrastructure that early would be to award more points for them, but why should they build something that they don't need yet? (except for just the cultural value-which I think should somehow be incorporated into the QSC score).

That early in the game, why build infrasctructure instead of more settlers in order to grab more land peacefully? It is way easier to claim the land without a fight. I do agree that Creepster could have built a few more workers, though. But now that he has 25 cities, he can all have them build 1 worker, and in just 10 turns he would have 25 workers! (or more!)

How dense were your cities, Creepster? I suspect you were attempting to break my 'cramus maximus' record.

Bamspeedy,

Funny thing is they really are not that dense. I wasn't trying to break the record this month, although perhaps I will give it a try next month. ;) Most of my city pacement has to do with trying to get as much land as possible. There was a lot available in this game so I grabbed as much as I could.

I will put some screen shot in the next spoiler section when I qualify. Essentially my cities are placed from staring location North and all of the Celts territory except one city close to the Carthaginians. I have two others on the other non red land mass.

Hmmm..the competition is getting pretty heavy.

My QSC was not nearly as glamorous. I too moved SW to settle. I built several warriors to explore, patrol and avoid early tributes. I only had 6 cities by 1000bc. I had to do remedial pottery as well. I know I need to manage citizens better, but I'm a little fuzzy on the despotism rules - 3rd food gets penalty?

Third anything gets the penalty. So a tile that would normally produce three commerce gets cut to two, and a tile that would normally produce five food gets cut to four. But a tile that would normally produce two shields still gets its two shields.

Renata

I've uploaded a detailed QSC timeline for my GOTM19 in case anyone wants it - click here to download it. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SirPleb_GOTM19_QSC_timeline.ZIP).

Here is my Ancient Era timeline for anyone who want to read it.

I too bought a Celtic worker from Brennus which slowed his initial growth. In my game, their second worker was not for sale.

Then around 2850BC I managed to trap the first Celtic settler between a newly founded Iznik and a warrior. My warrior and the Celt settler/warrior kept repeating the same moves for about 10 turns. I was intending to to keep this up until war started then kill the warrior to get two more slaves but after I moved a worker into the area to improve around Iznik, the AI changed its moves. Anyway I delayed the founding of Mohaks until 2150BC!

I'm not building wonders concentrating on denying territory and resources to the Celts and Carthage. My southern border is only just north of Entremont and by founding Bursa south of Entremont, I prevented the Celts from getting iron hooked up.

Carthage has Pyramids, Great Library and is building more wonders, they only have one horse and one iron which I intend to exploit when I have built the military built up.

With all these luxuries around, my culture expansion is coming from cheap Libraries, I'm not building the religious improvements as I intend to avoid a heavy upkeep bill. The plan is to rely on MPs and luxuries to keep order then later I'll be after Marketplaces to multiply the luxuries whilst generating cash. A low upkeep will allow me to stay in despotism for longer using my military build up firstly as MPs and secondly to grap 25g from barbarian camps. This lean and mean economy should allow me to keep up in science and allow a once only revolution directly into Democracy.


4000BC Worker moves S and finds game that will be available to the city radius once the first expansion occurs. The Hut Warrior climbs E mountain and spies silks to the NE and a coast. We cannot move the setter to grab game and silks in the radius so found Sogut at the starting location. Blast! There is wheat to the west, just out of reach. Still our industrious worker can soon irrigate the game forest. Research Pottery at 100%.

3950-3800 Start a road. Warrior spots 3 fogs due E. We decide irrigate the bonus grassland?! so as to quickly get water to the game. Discover another river S.

3750-3600 New warrior heads to the N mountain and spies cattle will then turn W. Worker moves to game, spies dye to S and starts clearing forest. The 10 shields will go towards a granary. Our warriors see insence and coast to the W and dyes SE - we will be rich in luxuries, hopefully to trade with other civs!

3550 We see a two barbarian galleys off the east coast and encounter a Celtic warrior in the SE.

Polite Brennus sells us one of his two workers and 10g for Bronze Working and Masonry. The slave will save us from losing a citizen to get a second worker and in the long run will be better than getting Warrior Code or Mysticism now since we don't yet need temple or archer.

3500 New warrior heads N and set production to settler. The other warriors continue S along West and East coasts. Find a small lake near the dye jungle. The slave starts to mine the bonus grassland, it will complete in 6 turns after our own worker has irrigated the game. Sogut grows to size 2 - on Emperor level this means unrest so luxuries increased to 10%, science reduced to 40%.

3450 Pottery. 10 shields returned to Sogut, worker starts road. N warrior returns to Sogut to be our military police. Now researching Iron Working in 30t with 90% science. Buy Ceremonial Burial from Brennus for Pottery and his 10g. Start to think the jungle should become border between us and Brennus as this will negate the extra speed of their Gallics.

3400- 3200 Find two small lakes and gems in the SW jungle. Find the border of Entremont one tile S of the river S of the dyes. Complete irrigation of game - now have +4 food. Find barbarian horseman in the SW. Slave completes mine and starts trade network towards dyes and Celtic border. Worker starts on second bonus grassland to SW.

3150-2900 Sogut builds settler who heads for the dyes closest to Entremont. Science back to 100%. Sogut MPs head N. Find incense on SW peninsula and see squids nearby. We find two more silks directly N of Sogut. At 3000 Brennus still only has one city. Worker begins to help trade network.

2850-2710 Iznik founded. Blocks Brennus settler/warrior moving north. Brennus has the Wheel and Warrior Code. Workers build road to Iznik's dyes and start clearing forest and jungle. Brennus settler/warrior keeps repeating their moves at the straight near Iznik. Luxury rate increased to 10% to prevent unrest in Sogut.

2670 A barb horseman attacks our warrior in the SW and is defeated.

2630 We complete the road between Iznik and Sogut which produces a settler. Science back to 100%.

2590-2550 We meet a Carthaginian worker in the SW. Buy Alphabet from Cautious Hannibal for 6g/t 18g Pottery and Ceremonial Burial. The Carthaginians have two cities. Sell Aphabet to Brennus for Warrior Code and 10g. Science now at 30%. Sogut production set to archer.

2510 Uskudar founded. Sogut citizen micromanaged to mined grassland shield so Uskudar citizen can work the irrigated game. The slave starts to mine grassland shield next to Uskudar. Science increased to 50% for Iron Working in 9 turns. Hannibal now has the Wheel. Brennus sends his settler west.

2390 Find encampment and a Pictish warrior west of Iznik. Our warrior discovers Utica.

2310 We disperse the Kassite encampment and set science to 70% for Iron Working in 2 turns. The Celtic settler turns away south..

2270 Build first Archer. The Kassites attack Warrior of the Hut on a mountian and he is promoted to regular.

2230 Iron Working. Select Writing as next advance and 60% science.

2190 Disperse a barbarian encampment in the far south. Increase science to 80% (shrinking at -3g/t) for Writing in 16turns.

2150 Brennus finally founds Mokaks.

1725 Izmit founded. Science increased to 100%

1625 Writing. Aydin founded to prevent Brennus from using Iron south of Entremont. Select Literature as next advance. Buy The wheel from Hannibal for 3g/t and 27g.

1525 Micromanagement in Sogut to reduce food surplus so granary and growth complete together,

1475 Sogut completes granary, border expands to cover silks.

1425 Hannibal demands 7g and we comply.

1350 Warrior reaches far SE of our island and spots a new continent sellted by a red bordered civ within galley distance.

1300 Antalya founded. We have laid claim to the north of our continent. Now need to settle the coasts in case Brennus and Hannibal build galleys.

1275 Brennus completes road to horses S of Entremont, We found Bursa and steal horses.

1225 A Barbarian horseman appears in the forest N of Sogut. Our archer MP sacrifices itself and warrior guarding worker finished the job. Increase luxury rate to 10% to until can reestablish MPs.

1200 We complete a road linking iron to the Sogut.

1175 Literature. Sell to Hannibal for Mysticism, world map and 105 gold. All cities producing 2 beakers or in need of border expansion have production changed to Library. Buy Map Making from Brennus for Literature, 90g and 2g/t. Silks roaded up luxuries back to 0%. Hannibal has one horse and one iron. Brennus none. Science set to 70% and researching horseback riding.

1125 Science now 80%.

1100 Celts declare war on us and burn Bursa to the ground.

1025 Discover Horseback Riding. Select Philosphy in 6 turns at 80%

1000 Annoyed Red Leader meets us. They have 11 cities, code of laws, 3 ivory, 0 incense, 1 horses, 0 gold.

950 Swordsman kills the vet warrior that sacked Bursa.

900 Philosophy. Select maths at 100% in 5 turns .

850 Two reg swordsman and an archer attack two reg spearmen
and destroy a celtic city and capture a worker but one swordsman dies.

825 Uskudar builds barracks. Luxuries 20%. Our archer kills a celtic archer that approaches Aydin too closely.

775 Mathematics. Buy Code of Laws from Redfor Maths and 75g. Our archer is promoted to vet after kiling a celtic warrior. Celts offer peace, we say no.

730-690 Edirne founded. We are the most advanced in the world with Red. Our 3/3 3/3 4/4 4/4 swordsmen supported by 3/3 4/4 archer and 3/3 spearman and 3/3 warrior advance on Entremont.

670 We capture Entremont and a worker for the loss of three swordsmen. Brennus captures Izmit.

590-530 We recapture Izmit and make peace with Brennus.

490-410 Currency. Select Polytheism. Sell currency to Brennus for 155 gold. Sell currency to Red for 76 gold and world map. Establish Embassies with known 3 civs. Red now has Barracks, Temple and Library.

330-230 Polytheism. Sell Poyltheism to Hannibal for 150g.

170BC Enter middle ages get a free tech. Massive Barbarian uprising near Kona.

The summary below is for 50BC, the closest save file to the spoiler limit.

Summary

* 9 towns
* 1 settler
* 5 workers
* 3 warriors
* 4 archers
* 10 spearmen
* 6 swordsmen
* 1 catapult
* 3 Celtic slaves (one bought)
All Ancient techs except Republic and Monarchy.

Score 459 (Reds 841), Happy 54.1, Content 21.9, Territory 382.9

:soldier:

Originally posted by Renata
Third anything gets the penalty. ....
Thanks. I knew it was something like that, but it didn't occur to me to irrigate the game - doh!
:(
Originally posted by SirPleb
I've uploaded a detailed QSC timeline for my GOTM19 in case anyone wants it ...
Wow - almost 8,000 words! Thanks for the effort. It would be great if there was an in-game scripter that could save all the steps and annotations so people could just watch the game unfold.

Logging can be painful, especially when you don't stop. I blew past the 1000bc cutoff and kept logging moves to 10ad. Don't think anyone really wants to 10,000 steps to a mediocre new age.
:wallbash:
Originally posted by Perugia
...I managed to trap the first Celtic settler between a newly founded Iznik and a warrior. My warrior and the Celt settler/warrior kept repeating the same moves for about 10 turns. ...

Yeah, I did this dance, too. I think they trap the loop after 10 turns or so. In my case they did an end run after several turns. The really stupid thing was Brennus declares war w/o any troops to back it up just so his warrior+settler could stay in enemy territory. He lost a lux town for his hubris.
:crazyeye:

Here is my QSC report:

4000BC: worker moves south, warrior moves east, settler moves SE
3950BC: Sogut founded
3750BC: warrior (Sogut)
3450BC: contact with Keltoi
3350BC: Pottery
Trade: Pottery + Bronze Working for Ceremonial Burial + 3 gold (Keltoi)
War declared against Keltoi (2 workers captured)
3050BC: granary (Sogut)
3000BC: Peace Treaty + 6 gold for Warrior Code (Keltoi)
2950BC: Keltoi is cautious now :crazyeye:
2900BC: warrior (Sogut)
2800BC: contact with neoCarthage
2670BC: Mysticism
Trade:
Mysticism + Pottery + 6 gold for Alphabet (neoCarthage)
2630BC: settler (Sogut)
2590BC: Iznik founded, silks connected
War declared against neoCarthage (2 workers captured)
2510BC: Pictish warrior ambushed the workers that I just captured. grrrr
2390BC: settler (Sogut)
2350BC: Uskudar founded
Keltoi was annoyed with me and now is polite. I guess Brennus declared war against Hannabaline. \o/
2190BC: settler (Sogut)
2150BC: warrior (Uskudar), Izmit founded and I am 2nd in territory now \o/
2110BC: warrior (Sogut)
Signed peace treaty with neoCarthage for 15 gold
2030BC: neoCarthage already have Writing, and Keltoi have Iron Working and next turn I will get Mathematics. :)
1990BC: Mathematics
Trade: Mathematics + 32 gold for Writing (neoCarthage)
WOW. Keltoi captured Carthage!!!
Alphabet for 14 gold (Keltoi)
Writing + Mathematics + 10 gold (Ouch!) for Iron Working (Keltoi)
Iron Working for 57 gold (neoCarthage)
1910BC: warrior (Uskudar), warrior (Izmit)
1870BC: Aydin founded
1725BC: settler (Sogut)
1700BC: Philosophy, warrior (Aydin), Antalya founded
1625BC:
Trade:
Philosophy for worker + 25 gold (neoCarthage)
1575BC: settler (Sogut), settler (Izmit)
1550BC: Bursa founded
1525BC: settler (Uskudar), Edirne founded
Trade:
27 gold for worker (neoCarthage) ??. Well, I accepted
1500BC: Istanbul founded, neoCarthage captured back Carthage
1475BC: dyes connected
1450BC: Code of Laws, worker (Antalya)
1425BC: settler Sogut
1375BC: settler (Aydin), Konya founded
1325BC: Adana founded
1300BC: spices connected, worker (Bursa)
1275BC: worker (Edirne)
1250BC: Literature, settler (Izmit), worker (Istanbul)
Trade:
Literature + Code of Laws for Map Making + WM + some gold (I forget to take note) (neoCarthage)
1225BC: galley (Uskudar)
1200BC: warrior (Adana), worker (Antalya), Sinop founded, contact with ##### \o/
Trade:
Mathematics + Writing for WM + 24 gold + contact with ##### (#####)
Mathematics for 14 gold + contact with ##### (#####)
Writing + Mathematics + 3 gold for WM + The Wheel + contact with ##### (#####)
Mathematics for WM + 12 gold (#####)
Philosophy for Horseback Riding + 97 gold + WM (#####)
The Wheel for WM + 38 gold (neoCarthage)
The Wheel for WM + 25 gold (Keltoi)
Code of Laws for WM + 165 gold (#####)
Code of Laws for 91 gold (#####)
Philosophy for 10 gold (#####)
I'm still missing contact with Rome, but I can see a red border east of the carthaginians. Let me see if I can get contact sending my galley to the south.
1175BC: Kafa founded, gems connected
1125BC: settler (Sogut), worker (Konya)
1100BC: established embassies (##### - 41 gold and ##### - 43 gold)
Declared war against ##### and #####
Trade:
Alliance vs. the ##### + WM for 25 gold + WM (#####)
Alliance vs. the ##### + Alliance vs. the ##### + WM + Literature + Map Making + Code of Laws for Polytheism + WM (#####)
1075BC: warrior (Antalya). Contact with Roman city of Lugdunum
I lost a lot of warriors to the barbarians, but my galley with 1hp survived again in treacherous water :D
Trade:
Polytheism for WM + 177 gold (Rome)
Established embassies (Rome - 47 gold and Keltoi - 29 Gold)
Declared war against neoCarthage
Signed military alliance with Keltoi against neoCarthage
Gift contact with the carthaginians to Rome (Rome is gracious now!!)
Trade:
Mathematics + Philosophy + WM + 7 gold (Ouch!) for alliance against neoCarthage (Rome)
1050BC: Oh no, a barbarian galley killed my galley. :(
Davidople founded!. Humm, there is a Roman city with a harbor now! Well, I can build one too, in 30 turns...
It seems that the Romans started the game with addicional settlers.
1025BC: settler (Aydin), worker (Edirne), warrior (Adana)
1000BC: worker (Istanbul), Alexmanika founded!
Trade:
WM for WM + 25 gold (#####)
Literature for WM + 35 gold (Rome)
=================================
Summary:
15 cities
132 tiles (8,8 tiles p/ city)
317 points
28 citizens
1 granary
7 warriors
9 workers
4 slaves
7 contacts
4 embassies
776 gold
All the ancient techs but Construction, Republic and Monarchy
Currency in 1 turn

@Creepster: Although I appreciate your detailed timeline the reference to "El-Armans, Byblos" kind of gives away the identity of the ####'s doesn't it? (not that it really matters, but still...)

Quite impressed by the city counts (esp. the 17 and 25) compared to my meagre 9 but I will replay the timelines and beat all of you next GOTM :-D

Happy hunting everyone and see you next spoiler (although most of you have probably finished by now - that's what you get from only learning about GOTM's by 15/5 :-)...)

Wouter

Although I appreciate your detailed timeline the reference to "El-Armans, Byblos" kind of gives away the identity of the ####'s doesn't it? (not that it really matters, but still...)


Oops!! :eek: Sloppy editing on my part. Sorry about that.

I don't know why guys are worrying so much about knowing the name of all the civs in your game. After about 40 turns (or less) into the game, a certain historian will pop up to give you the complete list of the most "Advance" or whatvever civs out there, including those that were light years away too.

Er - just look at the space race to see who hasnt built any spaceship parts and you can have a list of the civs at turn 1.

the reason I was not trying to mention the civs is because of the spoiler rules. I agree that you get the list of names at 3000BC. You also get a nice clue with the top 5 cities.

So no I am not worrying, I am just trying to keep the talk relavent to the spoiler rules posted for this thread. Those civs are outside of the spoiler setup so I was trying not to mention them.

@vanatteveldt: Welcome to the CFC and the GOTM. Always good to see a fellow Utrechter on such an international board :).

Originally posted by Alamo
Thanks.....

Originally posted by Renata
Third anything gets the penalty. So a tile that would normally produce three commerce gets cut to two, and a tile that would normally produce five food gets cut to four. But a tile that would normally produce two shields still gets its two shields.

Renata
That's right. The key point is to know which tiles your workers should not waste their efforts on with worthless actions while you are still in Despotism. You need to understand which worker actions do not improve citizen work and avoid these. Quite simply the actions to avoid are those which result in exactly 3 Food or 3 Shields under other governments. These can be listed on a tile type basis as follows:

Grassland, Grassland shield, Grassland horse, Plains wine and Plains game produce 2 food without irrigation, under Despotism you should mine these tiles rather than irrigate them because the +1 from irrigation will be wasted. Sometimes you might temporarily irrigate these tiles to provide access to fresh water for some other tile.

Plains cattle and Plains fur produce 2 shields without mining, under Despotism you should irrigate these tiles rather than mine them because the +1 from mining will be wasted.

All other tiles will benefit from your choice of mining or irrigation.

Note. As you are most unlikely to be in Despotism once you get Steam Power, I have only included the Ancient and Mediaeval resources in this analysis. I have assumed no railroads as the optimum choice of irrigation or mine changes once you obtain +1 on irrigation and mines. For instance with railroads/despotism you should irrigate the deserts for 2 food and 1 shield instead of mining them for 0 food and 2 shields. I have also assumed you can obtain either a grassland or plains on clearing a forest containing bonus, luxury or strategic resources and that those resources remain in place.


The same Despotic problem applies to building a road that results in exactly 3 Commerce under other governments. This occurs in Spice, Ivory, Dye river, Fur river, Horse river, Incense river, Saltpeter river and Wine river tiles which all produce 2 commerce without a road.

Building roads to these tiles will not increase the 2 commerce they provide to any city. But may place your worker in position to mine or irrigate the same tile to benefit the city and may form part of your trade network. Assuming you have a choice of which luxury and resource tiles to build roads to and all your cities are connected, you need to optimise the order your workers will connect up the remaining trade network so that worker and citizen productivity will be maximum. The following priority is a guide.

1) Tile is inside city radius and is a luxury or strategic resource but is not Spice, Ivory, Dye river, Fur river, Horse river, Incense river, Saltpeter river or Wine river.
2) Tile is inside city radius and is Spice, Ivory, Dye river, Fur river, Horse river, Incense river, Saltpeter river or Wine river
3) Tile is outside city radius but is within borders.
4) Tile is outside borders. This will require a colony.

For example, you discover the wheel and find a horse, horse river in your city radii and another horse within borders. The priority is to connect the horse inside your city radius as this allows you to build chariots and provides +1 commerce. Connecting both the other horses can wait until you can trade with other civs. You will want to move a worker to the horse river and mine or irrigate there and when that is complete build the road.

Very nice post Perugia. One small correction though, game will give +2 food. Therefore plains game gives 3 food and irrigating will help you even in despotism. I think I read somewhere that in an old version of civ3 game only gave +1 food but they changed it to +2. So that may be where you were getting that from.

Well, this is the first time I'm going to compete in the GotM. I also normally play on Warlord, so Emperor is a bit more challenging than I'm used to. I'm not planning on going back though--it's too much fun. ;) I've been playing Emperor games since GotM-19 was announced using all the known game conditions to try and prepare myself, and I really want my second content person back. :help: Feel free to take a look at my timeline, and if you see anything I did wrong please mention it (gently). I'm specifically wondering about my starting location, my first trade, initial build order and my choice of wonder to build.

4000 BC
- Worker S to BG
- Warrior West following river. I want that game quickly so:
- Settler SE
3950 BC
- Found Sogut, start producing warrior
- Warrior heads S to explore. Sees coast to West.
- Worker mines bonus grassland
- Start research on Pottery at 100%, ETA 17 turns
3800 BC
- Mine finished, start road. Switch citizen to working bonus grassland for more money. Research goes from 14 to 11 turns.
3750 BC
- Warrior finished, start warrior
- Warrior heads N to mountain, spots silk! Also sees some coastline to East.
- Southern Warrior contacts Celts, trade BW, Masonry and 8 gold for 2 slave workers. Also spots Dyes and Gems!
- Slave workers head south to game for clearing duty.
- Decided that my first cities will be to the South unless the North is also contested.
- My favorite turn of the game so far ;)
3700 BC
- Road completed, worker heads to game. Slaves start clearing.
3650 BC
- Worker starts road in game, as clearing forest would waste the shields too quickly.
- Southern warrior continues S along hills/mountains. Hoping to find Celt capital.
- Northern Warrior goes West to last mountain, spots cattle.
3600 BC
- Northern warrior heads E to hill for view.
- Southern warrior spots barbarian horseman and Celtic border. I feel fear.
3550 BC
- Sogut warrior finished. Start settler and fortify warrior in capital for MP duty and to defend from VERY EARLY barbarian horsemen.
- Northern warrior spots spices and more coastline to the W. Heads N along hills.
3500 BC
- Get view of Celtic capital so I can tell when they put out settlers. S warrior heads NE (using auto-move to save two turns)
- Worker completes road on game, clears forest. Slaves start irrigating
3450 BC
- Sogut hits size 2 and expands borders.
- Worker joins in irrigating game, completes it.
- Slave workers start road to East along river for new city.
- Northern warrior spots another cattle and silk. Continues NW
3400 BC
- Worker starts road S for other new city (trying to get the settlers to the new locations quickly)
3350 BC
- Northern warrior spots coast to N and W, so we're at the top of an island.
- Pottery finished, start Alphabet at 100%, 21 turn ETA
3300 BC
- N warrior heads back towards capital to garrison in new city when built.
3250 BC
- Worker goes to build road in forest N or dyes to the S, planning to build city directly on dyes.
3200 BC
- Sogut settler finished, start settler. Send settler S to dyes.
3150 BC
- Slave worker joins Sogut to speed growth and production of new settler. Other slave continues road E
3100 BC
- Iznik founded S of capital on Dyes. Start warrior production with citizen working forest for faster warrior.
- Road between Sogut and Iznik completed. Worker will start clearing forest next turn.
3050 BC
- Sogut warrior heads E to protect slave worker and harass and Celts moving that way.
- N warrior heads to capital to take the other warrior's place.
3000 BC
- Slave worker stars irrigating plains in preparation of new city.
2900 BC
- Warrior to SE spots Celtic Warrior and Settler moving towards somewhere I want, plans to use terrain and block.
2850 BC
- Iznik warrior completed, start warrior. New warrior heads to Sogut to MP duty.
- Celtic W/S combo proves stupid. Moves toward choke point. My warrior blocks.
2800 BC
- Celts build city at choke point. Nothing but 3 jungle and water in city radius. City is officially declared useless.
- Iznik warrior completed (got shields from clearing forest). Garrisons. Worker starts Mine N of Iznik.
- Iznik starts settler.
2750 BC
- Sogut Settler completed, start settler.
- New settler heads E along road to prepared location.
- Slave worker joins Sogut.
2670 BC
- Worker starts mine N/NE or Iznik
- Uskudar founded 5 tiles SE of Sogut. Warrior started.
2630 BC
- Alphabet completed. Math started, 16 turn ETA
2550 BC
- Mine N of Iznik completed, worker heads to BG SW/SW of Sogut to mine and road.
2470 BC
- Uskudar warrior completed, start settler. Warrior heads N to scout.
2430 BC
- Sogut settler completed, start granary. Settler and 1 warrior head N to cattle and coast.
2310 BC
- Sogut worker completes mine and road, heads NE to next bonus grassland to do the same.
- Discover that coast near cattle up N is actually a lake. Fresh water! Move settler/warrior between the two.
2270 BC
- Settle Izmit between small northern lake and cattle. Start warrior.
2110 BC
- Math completed, start Currency
- Iznik settler completed, start warrior. Settler and one warrior head W to gems.
2070 BC
- Izmit warrior completed, start worker. Warrior heads W to scout.
1990 BC
- Contact Carthage! They're much nicer than the Celts. Trade Math and Pottery for IW, Wheel, CM, and 18 gold.
- Trade Math and Pottery to Celts for Mysticism and 64 gold.
1950 BC
- Sogut granary completed, start Pyramids. Carthage starts them same turn. Liking them less now...
- Send Iznik warrior N to Sogut for MP duty
- Found Aydin SW of Iznik on Gems, start worker
1910 BC
- Izmit worker completed and sent to irrigate cattle. Settler started.
- Iznik warrior completed, start warrior.
1870 BC
- Uskudar settler completed, sent N. Start warrior.
1830 BC
- Barbarian camp NE of Izmit dispersed, warrior now veteran. Note: Spellchecker doesn't like Ottoman city names.
1725 BC
- Antalya founded N of Uskudar, start warrior.
1700 BC
- Uskudar warrior completed, start settler.
1625 BC
- Aydin worker completed, warrior started. Worker begins road to Iznik
1600 BC
- Antalya warrior completed, start settler.
1450 BC
- Currency completed (finally!). Start researching Literature.
- Trade Currency to Carthage for writing and 50 gold.
1425 BC
- Bursa founded near NW corner of island on hill. Warrior started.
1400 BC
- Iznik Settler completed, starting spearman. Settler goes NW
1375 BC
- Aydin Warrior completed, started worker.
1300 BC
- Uskudar Settler completed and sent to join Sogut. Temple started as prebuild for library.
1275 BC
- Izmit Settler completed, start settler.
- Form embassy in Carthage. I'll beat them to the pyramids by at least 3 turns. :)
- Send settler bound for Sogut on to settle elsewhere-it wouldn't speed up the pyramids much at all.
1250 BC
- Edirne founded N of Aydin.
1225 BC
- Antalya settler completed, warrior started.
1200 BC
- Aydin worker completed, temple prebuild for Library started.
1175 BC
- Bursa Warrior completed, worker started.
1150 BC
- Literature finished, starting Philosophy.
- Istanbul founded 5 tiles NW of Sogut, warrior started.
- Konya founded N of Antalya, worker started.
- Trade Currency to Celts for Map Making and 18 gold.
- Trade Literature to Carthage for Territory map, Horseback Riding and 19 gold.
- Celts have only 5 cities, none connected. I mock them mercilessly.
1125 BC
- Build Adana SW of Bursa. Worker started.
- Switch Uskadar to build galley.
1100 BC
- Antalya warrior completed, start worker.
1075 BC
- Oracle completed by civ I can't name in this thread.
1050 BC
- Pyramids completed in Sogut! Begin Marketplace. Wake girlfriend to tell her the good news. Sleeping on couch tonight. :wallbash:
- Gallery completed in Uskudar. Begin Library.
- Galley sinks barbarian galley, spots other coastline. Beats squid when attacked later in round :)
1000 BC
- Galley spots red border, but is blocked by fog. Too wounded to try it, so it'll head SW along other island and hope.
Totals:
- 11 cities, total pop of 24
- 1 granary built plus 10 from Pyramids
- Pyramids
- Contact with Carthage and Celts, and can see a red border with my Galley.
- 4 techs away from M.A., and only 1 turn away form Philosophy.

Comparison stats:
Approval Rating: 68% 2nd
Population 820000 1st
GNP 42 million 2nd
Mfg Goods 32 Megatons 1st
Land Mass 13,600 miles 3rd
Literacy 3% 2nd
Disease 6% 5th
Pollution 0 1st
Life Expectancy 46 years 1st
Family Size 1 child 3rd
Military Service 7 years 7th
Annual Income 3/capita 2nd
Productivity 92 1st

All in all I'm quite pleased with where I ended up. I would have liked to have had one more turn to complete the two settlers, Philosophy and to contact that red Civ (Rome, as it turns out), but oh well. I'm not planning on submitting the QSC thing, I'm just trying to see how well I do compared with other people.

950 BC
- Spot Roman Galley, make contact. Trade WM and contacts with C+C and Phil, for WM Code of Laws and 146 gold.
- Galley heads back N
925 BC
- Carthage completes Great Library. Must remember to trade with them first.
- With nothing to lose, galley tries to get past fog N of Roman island. Actually wins!
900 BC
- Found Sinop on Iron close to Celtic capital just to keep them off it. Start Library so it doesn't get flipped.
850 BC
- Kafa founded, start worker.
825 BC
- Snipped due to thread limitations.

The Celts and the Carthaginians were kind enough to keep clearing my lands of barbarians, and I got most of that gold back later in trades, so I'm happy about the way it worked out. I can see every tile in my portion of the island, so I don't have to worry about barbarian swarms when I hit the MA. Once I get libraries built I'll expand and increase my land mass rating, though I doubt I'll be able to match Rome without taking out the Celts. Roman culture is pretty huge, and from what I've seen from the coast they have a lot of legionaries. I just might have to consider keeping them my friends--at least until I get Sipahi. :) Carthage is actually keeping up with techs, and I might have to watch that later on.

I do have a question. I've never seen a barbarian horseman anywhere near as early as 3600 BC before. Have I been lucky or was that set up for this game deliberately? It does explain why the Celts had two workers in their capital earlier, and if there were a lot of barbarians in Celtic land early on it would explain why they are so amazingly weak.

I did much better in this game than in the practice runs I did using the known starting conditions. One reason is that we had much more room to expand in this game than the computer was giving me in other games. A large part of this is probably the early barbarian problems that the Celts had.

Any thoughts? From the messages I've read I'm not doing too badly, though some people are so far ahead of me I'm wondering if they have Accelerated Production turned on. ;) Either that or I suck, and I like the first explanation better. Would the Great Library have been a better choice? I get it when I'm not playing a scientific civ usually, but the duration is so short that I'm not sure it would help me very much.:( :(

@ Stone Wolf
Frankly you were doing far better than I expected when I start making comments on your post. Are you sure you’re a warlord player? Did you win those mock emperor games that you played?

I have only minor thoughts as seen below
“3000 BC
- Slave worker stars irrigating plains in preparation of new city.” (I guess you could have done better – more roads to better locations – improve existing cities)

”2430 BC
- Sogut settler completed, start granary. Settler and 1 warrior head N to cattle and coast.” (finally … You delayed those valuable city sites for sooo long)

Great timing on the Pyramids but remember to join workers and not settlers (you waste 10 shields for every settler). I think you were a little late to contact Carthage but that could have been unlucky. Some warmongers could have been ahead of you but you got a very good game. I suggest you submit your QSC, as you’ll get a far above average score (unless you did any despicable things that disqualify you).

Accelerated production can not be set on, we started the same game, remember?

Welcome to our community

I played about 2 dozen games on Emporer before trying th GotM, though only 5 of them were completed. That's when I learned not to sign Mutual Protection Pacts just before building the UN--idiots all declared war on one another and dragged me right in. Most of my earlier attempts were abandoned in the early MA when it was clear that I messed up along the way. Most of the rest I ended in the Industrial Age simply because I'm mainly worried about the earlier time periods. I basically just read all kinds of strategy articles and such and went with what I read. Like I said, I never did this well because I never had this much room to expand (though the flood plain start was a good one ;) ).

3000 BC
- I irrigated mainly because I wanted that worker to be able to join the capital as soon as the capital put out the settler it was working on. I probably could have worked a tile near the capital instead, though, as the capital spent quite a few turns at size three with only two worked tiles. That was a blooper.

2430 BC
- Yeah, that was bugging me. I tried to grab land close to the Celts and force him to expand South. The city East is a good one, but the one to the South is still kinda useless. Now that I know how weak the Celts are, I'd just let them build around there and just take it from them later.

The settler that was going to join but didn't was a result of indecision on my part. It was planned to go out and found a new city, but I was worried about Carthage beating me to the Pyramids. By the time I decided to have him join it was too late to change it to a worker without wasting shields. I built an embassy with Carthage after the settler was completed and saw that I was going to win, so I sent the settler out as I intended earlier.

I also noticed that I placed one city on a different tile than I intended. I was using the city placement scheme from BamSpeedy's article, but somehow a city ended up one tile off. I remember a Celtic warrior around there when my settler was moving, and I must have moved the settler/warrior combo to the wrong tile. It hasn't messed things up though.

I don't think I've done anything that wouldn't disqualify me from th QSC. It's the same rules as GotM right? No reloading, no readin spoiler threads before you qualify, no using exploits or editors. The only thing I exploited is that I used the Celtic and Carthaginian warriors exploring around my cities to clear out barbarians, and I think that's okay. :) I think I only had a half dozen fights against barbs or so. I missed out on the gold, but attacking camps when I didn't have to didn't make sense. With only a 25% attack bonus my warriors were attacking with a 1.25 attack against camps with a minimum of 1.6 defense (fortified and minimum terrain bonus). I have a horrible time with barbs on Emp, which I guess is standard. AI civs seem to have better luck with barbs, so I let them do it for me. I did attack wandering barb warriors though, as they only had the terrain bonus to defense.

Oh, and I know that AP can't be turned on, I was just trying to find a way to explain some of the 1000 BC reports on here. I haven't read all of them, but there are a couple that seem just insane. I mean, one person has 2 wonders and someone else has 25 cities! I play the game a fair bit, but I don't think I've had anything close to that, even with AP turned on!

Your warmonger comment has me wondering. I tend to avoid wars as much as possible, but if I'm going to match Rome I need to take out the Celts. I don't go to war very often in my games, and when I do I lose or draw as often as I win. Ah well, the Celts shouldn't be too hard to overpower, as they still don't have their iron hooked up.

Thanks for the reply :D
:D :D

*edit* Corrected bad math and something I misread from an earlier post.

Originally posted by Stone Wolf
I played about 2 dozen games on Emporer before trying th GotM, though only 5 of them were completed.
Two dozen games :eek: I'd call you an Emperor level player then. You're too modest.
Originally posted by Stone Wolf
I don't think I've done anything that wouldn't disqualify me from th QSC. It's the same rules as GotM right? No reloading, no readin spoiler threads before you qualify, no using exploits or editors.
Right.
Originally posted by Stone Wolf
I was just trying to find a way to explain some of the 1000 BC reports on here. I haven't read all of them, but there are a couple that seem just insane. I mean, one person has 2 wonders and someone else has 25 cities! I play the game a fair bit, but I don't think I've had anything close to that, even with AP turned on!
I tought so. Those are exceptional games that you'll see in the top 10 next month. Someone has to be first :king:
Originally posted by Stone Wolf
Your warmonger comment has me wondering. I tend to avoid wars as much as possible, but if I'm going to match Rome I need to take out the Celts.
In time I noticed that warmongering leads to slightly better results, but luck plays a more important role (like when you only have 10 units and may lose none or 4 to take one town).
Try to take your time and play some games where you force yourself to be be a warmonger. You'll get the feeling.

Originally posted by Stone Wolf
I played about 2 dozen games on Emporer before trying th GotM,

That is more than the total number of games I've played!
You aren't a greenhorn anymore .... :)

But having a perfectly good Worker join the capital in the early game is generally not a good idea. Improving the land will help your empire more than that extra citizen or those few turns you gain for building a new Settler. In fact, in many of my games I start with building a second Worker and then typically catch up in empire size around 2550 BC.

Originally posted by Ribannah

That is more than the total number of games I've played!
You aren't a greenhorn anymore .... :)I have to go with Ribannah here. You're a veteran compared to me :)

Originally posted by Ribannah
But having a perfectly good Worker join the capital in the early game is generally not a good idea. Improving the land will help your empire more than that extra citizen or those few turns you gain for building a new Settler. In fact, in many of my games I start with building a second Worker and then typically catch up in empire size around 2550 BC. Again, I'll agree with Ribannah. The (not so humble) worker and/or slave will repay your initial investment a hundred times over.

An extra worker early on will really speed up your start. Just think of all those extra roaded, mined/irrigated squares. A worker produced at turn 20 has the potential to road 30 tiles (plains or grassland) or build 20 mines or irrigate 20 tiles never mind cutting down forests!

regards

Ted
p.s. Welcome to the big, bad world of GotM :)

Originally posted by Ribannah

But having a perfectly good Worker join the capital in the early game is generally not a good idea. Improving the land will help your empire more than that extra citizen or those few turns you gain for building a new Settler.
I would disagree with you Ribannah on the slave worker join to capitol issue. A slave worker is doing half a normal one's job but it’s worth a full citizen in the city. Then you can build a worker, which will be a national of course and you’ll get the full advantage. So you only lose a little time and 10 shields to upgrade your slave to a national. If you want to discuss the issue further you can make a separate thread.

Originally posted by Yndy

I would disagree with you Ribannah on the slave worker join to capitol issue. A slave worker is doing half a normal one's job but it’s worth a full citizen in the city. Then you can build a worker, which will be a national of course and you’ll get the full advantage. So you only lose a little time and 10 shields to upgrade your slave to a national.

I never join slave workers to anywhere for the simple reason they cost no upkeep. Your national worker will cost 1 gold every turn you are in democracy or republic on top of the 10 shields.

The slow work rate of slaves can be useful in forest clearance projects to avoid wasting the 10 bonus shields. When at war I also use them to lure AI units into ambushes.

Here's why I should never post when extremely tired. For some reason, I put down that I normally play on Warlord, when I meant to say Regent and (more recently) some on Monarch. Sorry about that. :blush: I've decided to ignore my health and go back to drinking lots of caffeine so it won't happen again. Yeah, that's why... ;)

I joined the workers because I figured that I had to grab the land close to the Celts as fast as possible. As I mentioned earlier, I wasted a lot of potential grabbing the spot S of my capital instead of N by the cattle and the lake. If I had just spent one more turn exploring N I would have seen that it was a lake instead of a coast and therefore access to fresh water. Actually, all I had to do was right-click on it. :rolleyes: Normally I try to work squares and get a granary out quickly before I start pumping out settlers, but I thought the Celts would have grabbed all of the land to my S and SE before I could. Little did I know that the Celts were so useless. Once I'm done this game I'll try again, going after the N cattle first and SE second. I'll also try to hold on to the slave workers if I get them again. My lone worker didn't keep up with Sogut's size too well.

Anyways, I will be taking out the Celts so I'll have to get used to actually using my military. Hopefully they won't get their only iron hooked up so I won't have to deal with their highly annoying UU. Even if they do, they can't have enough production to get more than a few out and I can always wait a bit and switch to Medieval Infantry. Carthage will have to wait until I get Sipahi I guess.

Originally posted by Ribannah
But having a perfectly good Worker join the capital in the early game is generally not a good idea.

Since you said generally, I think it might be worth while to describe that a little better. In any game of Monarch or lower it is usually not worth it. On any Emp or Diety game, where barbs exist it becomes a good trade. I don't think early workers are that critical for a normal game, for a milked game they are absolutely necessary. But if you are in a situation where you have to defend each worker with a couple units then you are approaching the point where its costing more than its usefulness.


On another topic, Creepster and others that got that initial worker trade for two techs and 8g, what version were you using? A bit of a difference from what I paid using PTW1.21, that is the same techs and 30g. What was different? A few turns on one those techs? (I'll assume masonry, and anywhere from 5-10gpt difference? Celts didn't look to have much in the way of research power.) A bit interesting in light of the trading thread Moonsinger brought up recently.

I only have PTW 1.14. The techs were Masonry and Bronze Working. What could be different is that you paid what the Celts were asking, instead of the minimum that they would accept. :)

Regarding you Worker: if you are afraid of Barbarians - on emperor and deity the AI will take care of them with all their exploring extra units! - you can always wait until they show up and then bring the Worker into the capital, if you can't protect it. Or just move a defender or attacker out for a turn and turn the luxury slider up.
So far I've never lost a Worker to Barbarians in the early game, but GOTM#20 may be different if I choose Predator!

The only time when having the Worker join the capital may be a good move is when there is no land of importance to improve. But in that case you might consider a long trek with your Settler instead ....

Joining your worker is a very temporary advantage. You fall behind after 10 turns if industrious, or 20 if non-industrious.

The only case I can think of where the first 10-20 turns are that important is a multiplayer Jag rush.

Originally posted by Smirk

On another topic, Creepster and others that got that initial worker trade for two techs and 8g, what version were you using? A bit of a difference from what I paid using PTW1.21, that is the same techs and 30g. What was different? A few turns on one those techs? (I'll assume masonry, and anywhere from 5-10gpt difference? Celts didn't look to have much in the way of research power.) A bit interesting in light of the trading thread Moonsinger brought up recently.

The same as Ribannah. Bronze working, masonry and 8 gold for 2 workers. Also PTW 1.14...

@ribannah, smirk:
I was replaying SirPlebs QSC game and the celts even took the two techs+2gold for their two workers...

(Unfortunately from that moment for some reason the celts and charthagens were a lot less willing to trade with me than with SirPleb - possibly the RNG allowed them to contact each other earlier, driving down the price of the shared techs...)

Originally posted by Ribannah
I only have PTW 1.14. The techs were Masonry and Bronze Working. What could be different is that you paid what the Celts were asking, instead of the minimum that they would accept. :)




Oh silly me, you mean you can change the amount you trade, and the AI doesn't automatically suggest the best deal for you?



A few turns of tech research difference could amount for some of it, but I just wondered if the versions were the same, hence a valid comparison. They aren't (I use 1.21) so there may be more to it.

You'd be surprised to know how many people don't know you can bargain, or simply forget. :lol:

I did some checking with meeting the Celts in different years:

3750 BC - they want the two tech plus $8
3700 BC - Workers (Settler?) not home
3650 BC - they want the two techs plus $25
3600 BC - they want the two techs plus $34

So by the looks of it the Celts started researching one of the techs. I was unable to meet them in 3800 BC, perhaps that's when they would ask for only $2.

Originally posted by Ribannah
You'd be surprised to know how many people don't know you can bargain, or simply forget. :lol:

I did some checking with meeting the Celts in different years:

3750 BC - they want the two tech plus $8
3700 BC - Workers (Settler?) not home
3650 BC - they want the two techs plus $25
3600 BC - they want the two techs plus $34

So by the looks of it the Celts started researching one of the techs. I was unable to meet them in 3800 BC, perhaps that's when they would ask for only $2.

I also made my deal with the celts in 3750 BC and I paid the same for those workers as Ribannah did...

Hmmm.
Need some strategy tips here. It's my first GOTM, and my first Emporer level game, so I'm heartened that I've even survived this long. I thought I'd try the tactic where I'd buy my techs rather than research them, but this had led to the state where I'm several (4) key techs behind (am in the Middle Ages). I just traded an arm an a leg for gunpowder.
The entire continent is accounted for so now I'm wanting to take out the Celts, as with what I've got I'll never catch up to . However, In the time it's taken me to build up an attack force, I'm sure they've gotten pikemen and possibly musket-men.
I was thinking of waiting for the chance to buy the techs needed for calvalry, meanwhile building lots of catapults for softening up duties. I'm worried that this will be too long of a wait and by that time the Celts will have really good defensive units. My main goal is to attack two cities to start with, the second one is thir capital (with Pyramids, which I want for the culture) and the first is between one of my cities and it.
Arrggh. What to do... Any ideas? Thanks.

Aoddev, as the Ottomans you have three things going for you:

(1) you're industrial, so you can develop even that nasty jungle,
(2) you're scientific, which means cheap libraries and universities as well as a free tech when you enter a new age;
(3) you get the Sipahi as unique unit, which is great.

Looks to me you should try and make good use of all these advantages. More advice than that would be beyond the intention of the GOTM and this spoiler thread, but you can ask again after finishing the game! :)

Originally posted by aoddev
Hmmm.
Need some strategy tips here. It's my first GOTM, and my first Emporer level game, so I'm heartened that I've even survived this long. I thought I'd try the tactic where I'd buy my techs rather than research them, but this had led to the state where I'm several (4) key techs behind (am in the Middle Ages). I just traded an arm an a leg for gunpowder.
The trick is to try to resell the tech to another civ less advanced than you. Difficult if you don't know many civs, unfortunately.

The entire continent is accounted for so now I'm wanting to take out the Celts, as with what I've got I'll never catch up to . However, In the time it's taken me to build up an attack force, I'm sure they've gotten pikemen and possibly musket-men.
I was thinking of waiting for the chance to buy the techs needed for calvalry, meanwhile building lots of catapults for softening up duties. I'm worried that this will be too long of a wait and by that time the Celts will have really good defensive units. My main goal is to attack two cities to start with, the second one is thir capital (with Pyramids, which I want for the culture) and the first is between one of my cities and it.
Arrggh. What to do... Any ideas? Thanks.
Well, this isn't really supposed to be a hints and tricks thread. But one important point isn't really a hint for this game. You will not get culture from the Pyramids if you capture them. You will get a granary in all your continental cities, but the only cultural effect will be to deprive the Celts of any additional culture - they will keep that which has been generated already.
That doesn't make it necessarily a bad idea to get the Pyramids; just be aware it won't solve any culture problem you might have.

Ill health delayed me this month, making this the first month I’ve missed the QSC deadline for the GOTM. Although I didn’t keep a detailed log after the deadline passed, I’ve managed to remember most of the early strategic decisions, and I’ve recovered some screenshots of early exploration and terrain improvements.

As per my second strategy post in the prelim discussion thread, I moved my warrior west and worker south. The warrior spotted wheat, and the worker game, causing my settler to move SW downriver in order to use both resources. Sogut is founded in the next turn, and as the minimap shows us further north, the hut warrior headed south. Research was dialed up to 100% on Pottery as usual on Emperor.

I quickly met Brennus of the Celts. He had workers available on the turn I contacted him, and I traded tech and a bit of gold for both of them as workers are more valuable than tech this early in the game. Here’s a picture of Sogut as it just hit size 2- having extra workers has netted me extra gold as well as being able to have both the mined plains and irrigation of the wheat already.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/earlysetup.JPG

I built one settler before a granary, and settled it close to Sogut as the other ‘settler pump.’ After Pottery, I go for max research on the Wheel, as it has high trade value and will reveal Horses for possible Sipahi to be built. I find Hannibal, but don’t trade with him until I get the Wheel and can afford Alphabet.

The first settler out founds Iznik above the dyes and immediately starts a granary, sped by the worker’s chop of the game forest, which is then irrigated. Once the Wheel is acquired, I swap it around for all the tech to get up to parity, and start 40-turn research on Math.

Both Sogut and Iznik get granaries, and start churning out settlers. Early on, I had planned to micromanage the tile use in these cities each turn, but ill health caused me to write it off, making this month a low one as far as extracting the most from city placement.

Antalya becomes military HQ with an early rax, and early warriors guarded workers against barbs. I lost no workers or settlers to barbs, and only one exposed warrior.

I successfully make the 40-turn gambit on Math, and reap a net profit of gold as well as Writing, Mysticism, and Iron Working. This has slowed down the tech pace and allowed me to build up a large reservoir of gold.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/math_gambit.JPG

As I can barely see red borders to the south, I decide to go for an expensive, non-preferred tech to research… but not at 40 turns, as if the other AIs know each other, they will make any further gambits useless as soon as Map Making is discovered.

I didn’t reach 1000 BC before the QSC submission deadline, but my ‘mock QSC’ for comparison lists some statistics and a screenshot:

10 cities
3 settlers
3 workers; 3 guest workers
2 granaries
2 temples
1 barracks
18 citizens
8 warriors
7 spearmen

Techs: IW, Math, Writing, Map Making, Philosophy, Mysticism, HBR

Currency is due in 4 turns using 25gpt to do so. Dense placement of cities has cut down on my territory, but has allowed me to work tiles with roads, massively boosting my early income.

Civ score is about 300 or so.

This isn’t as good as my past QSCs, but is still a strong start for Emperor, especially when you consider that I about to get luxury #4 hooked up in 8 turns or so. I see that most players have blown me out of the water in city count, which I expected as being ill doesn’t inspire me to new heights of micromanagement. I’ll make up for it next month as survival will force me to near-obsession with it at Deity level. :lol:

After a few more settlers are produced, I reach the limits of space without war, and Iznik becomes a worker factory, pumping them out every three turns as it fluctuates from size 3-4.

After Currency, I research Literature for the cheap culture and boost to research from libraries. I also pick this tech as one that the AI is less likely to research, making it more valuable for trade.

In 825 BC, I make contact with <deleted> and Rome, passing beyond the reach of this spoiler thread as far as map info and contacts.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/censoredgbr.JPG

I've already reached the middle ages, but I'm going to save the little bits of details regarding the last few techs for the next spoiler thread as brokering with <censored> civs was vital in acquiring them. This start isn't bad for a 'lazy game', and the amount of luxuries nearby remind me of Phys1, but without the immediate threat of war that comes from landing in the middle of a pangea. Buying those workers crippled Celtic expansion, as they only attempted to send one settler pair across my territory very late, and turned back almost immediately when I told them to leave. Rome is incredibly strong and well-developed, and I suspect an extra settler or workers or both given to them, as they are usually weak in comparison to other civs in single player games.

The next report in the second spoiler thread will occurr in a few days, once I'm recovered enough to play Civ. The early game so far has been a fun variation on the continents map, albeit with an obviously overpowered Rome. (Rome has no food bonuses in either of its first two cities, and with its city spacing, would have no chance at being this strong without assistance from the mapmaker.)

Originally posted by MadScot

Well, this isn't really supposed to be a hints and tricks thread.

Ooops. My bad, sorry about that. Thanks for the "sneaky" tips though. I'm playing Civ3v1.29, so I get the Balkan Dragoons (same thing) - which I had forgotten about... ;^)

Originally posted by vanatteveldt
I was replaying SirPlebs QSC game and the celts even took the two techs+2gold for their two workers...
I just tried replaying according to my QSC and it came up the same as originally for that trade, it took both techs + 8g to get the workers.

But then something strange happened at the end of that turn - the Celt warrior moved NW and blocked my warrior from the S move I originally made next. This is weird. Either I fouled up in my QSC notes (but at first try carrying on, that doesn't make sense - WarriorTheHut doesn't end up matching my notes a few turns later if I send him in other directions, he seems to need to go S now to match up), or the preserve random seed option still leaves something actually random (doesn't make much sense either) or ??? I don't get it, it is strange. I will try again to recreate my QSC tomorrow.

BTW Vanatteveldt, are you using PTW 1.21? A different version of Civ might also make a difference in how random events unfold I think.

AFAIK the random seed generates a number of outcomes but not a very large number. I would guess that you cannot recreate more than 100 moves and get the random seed preserved.

Originally posted by Yndy
I would guess that you cannot recreate more than 100 moves and get the random seed preserved.
I proofed one of my QSCs all the way to 1000BC to make sure it was ok, so the RNG sequence is at least sometimes reproduceable. Perhaps there's just one small exception somewhere. Or perhaps there's something else wrong here and I'm not getting it...

I had the same (with the warrior moving the wrong way) so I reloaded the auto-save, offered them 8gold instead of 2 and then he moved according to your notes. This made me curious so I reloaded again and did the same thing but then he blocked my path again. So either there is still some stray random effect, or alternatively I moved things in a different order (in the same turn)whcih might have triggered different random effects (although there wasn't any combat or goody huts yey so I don't know what the other triggered random effect might have been.

Even nastier: as I wrote above the carthagens and celts refused the second round of trading in your QSC log, so my guess was that they had made contact with each other, but in any case that means there is an addidional random factor in play...

PS @Sirpleb: I have admiration for your playing skill and the level of detail of your notes - both very educating (not to say humiliating :-))

Stupid Question...

Since in the process of getting to the 8g or 2g number, you must have iterated around the "we're close to a deal"/"this deal should be acceptable" loop...does the RNG play a part in determining your advisors response? Perhaps now knowing the answer is 8g you go straight there, whereas before you offered them a different amount?

Just a thought, I'm sure you have covered it already

I actually don't think there is any random involved in the advise; he's always right as far as I know. So that should not trigger a RN. but then again, something must trigger RN's as the action by the warrior varied even as I loaded the previous autosave... although that might just be a matter of the order of things I did in my turn or something like that. I didn't think it was very important so I did not do proper experimenting...

The advisor may always be right. (My advisor is a she :))

But what selects the various insults from the other civ's leader if you make an offer? Did anyone make offers?

Reproducing the QSC timeline: I've tried a lot of things to get the sequence to come out the same. I haven't succeeded. Along the way I have found two tricky things which change the way events unfold:

1) The Preferences option "Always Build Previously Built Unit". It seems that when this is off, then the RNG is used in the process of picking the next unit to be built. When it is on the RNG is not called and thus the subsequent sequence is different.

2) Negotations with another Civ. (Nice guess MadScot!) Just asking what they'll offer for something seems to call the RNG and thus change subsequent events.

Experimenting a bit I managed to get my QSC to play out to match the original until 3500BC but then it went off track again vs. the notes. There seems little point trying to get it right - how many times did I originally ask Brennus what he'd offer for something? And then there's 2500 years following with lots of negotiation attempts undocumented...

And it seems there must be at least one more thing we don't know about calling the RNG - I couldn't find a combination which ever got the Celts to agree to techs+2g for their workers. I did try playing with moving my units in different sequences than in my notes, that didn't seem to have an effect. And played with some other Preferences, none I tried had an affect.

I couldn't understand why I ever thought this could work so I went back to old GOTMs. I think it must have been in GOTM17 that I proofed my timeline - in that one I didn't meet another Civ (Egypt) till near the end of the QSC and then had minimal interaction. And maybe I didn't proof right to the end, I'm not sure.

Anyway, bottom line, I don't think QSC timelines are going to be predictably reproduceable, the negotiation thing looks like a killer. :sad:

I'm certain the negotiation sequence affects RNG outcomes. I tried one of the trading exercises in Moonsinger's excellent training thread a couple of times, and during the trade sequence the free tech for a scientific civ is triggered. I got two different free Middle Age techs during two successive runs, and all I'd done was to conduct trade negotiations on a saved game.

I think MadScot is right. At the very least the RNG is probably used to select the rude remarks for the opponents.

Well I started a new job last month, so it took me a long time to do stuff this month. I guess I should have submitted this when I submitted QSC, but oh well. Life got in the way.

-----
4000 BC - Look at territory. I can see Grasslands to the southeast and plains to the north. The potential gain of a Grassland bonus is huge, so I send my warrior east to the mountain.
- I have revealed Game. Will create city right where it is.
- Worker south to Bonus Grassland.
- Research Pottery at 1.9.0

3950 BC - Worker1 starts a road. Warrior1 heads north. I'm going north because of the mountain. Next warrior will head south to find other civs.

3850 BC - Road is done, Worker1 starts a mine.

3750 BC - Sogut produces a Warrior2. Starts another.
- Warrior1 reaches coast, continues nw.
- Warrior2 heads due south.

3700 BC - Worker1 moves onto game square.

3650 BC - Worker1 starts to clear forest.

3550 BC - Sogut produces a Warrior, Starts a Barracks.
- Warrior3 fortifies in prep for pop expansion.

3500 BC - Warrior2 spots regular Celtic Warrior in south.
- A Polite Brennus has 10 gold, Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code
- Brennus lacks Bronze Working and Masonry, he also has 2 workers in his capitol right now
- Trade Bronze Working + Masonry + 15 gold to Brennus for Worker and Ceremonial Burial.
- Worker2 moves nw.
- Set Tax rate to 7.3.0

3450 BC - Discover Pottery - Start Research on Iron Working
- Sell Pottery to Celts for 25 gold.
- Worker2 starts a road
- Sogut switches production to Spearman. With clear forest will get next turn.
- Taxes set to 0.10.0

3400 BC - Sogut builds Spearman - Start work on Settler.
- Worker1 starts a road on the Game.

3300 BC - Worker1 north to plains. Will Road and Irrigate, then return to the game.
- Worker2 moves northwest. Will prep road for first settler.

3250 BC - Worker1 and Worker2 start roads at their current locations.

3150 BC - Worker1 starts irrigation of plains.

3100 BC - Warrior2 contacts Carthaginian regular warrior.
- Hanibal is Cautious, has 10 gold and Alphabet. He lacks Pottery and Ceremonial Burial
- Unfortunately no good deals available. He is not giving up his letters easy.
- Worker2 moves sw on way to wheat. Will prep it for first city.

3050 BC - Worker2 sw to wheat. Worker1 moves back to game and starts irrigation.

3000 BC - Worker2 irrigates wheat.

2950 BC - Sogut builds Settler. Start on Granary.
- Worker1 west to Bonus Grassland.
- Settler moves nw, nw, w

2900 BC - Worker1 starts road.
- A barbarian hut has appeared right next to my settler.
- I send the Spearman from Sogut to protect the new city.
- Found Iznik - Production set to warrior.
- Trade Ceremonial Burial + 24 gold to Carthage for Warrior Code.

2900 BC Post My Turn.
- 2 Barbarian warriors attack the spearman in Iznik. The first one is defeated, but the
second one kills the spearman and sacks Iznik for 23 gold.

2800 BC - Worker1 starts mine. Worker2 starts a road on wheat.
- Set Taxes to 0.10.0 (Ooops looks like I missed a tax change along the way)

2670 BC - (Apologies, this timeline will miss some stuff from now on. I kept getting caught
- up in the game and forgetting to write stuff down)
- Iznik builds warrior, starts another.
- Worker1 south to grassland, worker2 ne.
- MicroManage Sogut to use 2 bonus grassland instead of game
- MM for next two turns to max production and min food waste.

2630 BC - Sogut builds spearman, start settler
- Worker2 starts irrigation, Worker1 starts road.

2590 BC - MM Iznik To use roaded plain instead of forest. (Lose extra shield to waste anyway)

2550 BC - Worker1 s,se to dyes (2 turns)
- Taxes to 7.3.0

2510 BC - Discover Iron Working, Start Mysticism
- Iznik builds Warrior, starts Temple
- Taxes set to 0.10.0

2470 BC - Worker2 NE, Worker1 Starts road on dyes

2430 BC - Worker2 starts irrigation of plains.

2390 BC - Sogut builds Settler, start Granary
- Settler to forest 3 south of Sogut (1 north of dye)
- MM Sogut back to game.

2350 BC - Worker1 north.

2310 BC - Found Uskadar, Production spearman
- Worker1 east to Bonus Grassland

2270 BC - Worker1 starts road on BG, Worker2 starts road on plain.

2230 BC - Warrior2 disperses camp near Carthage.
- MM Iznik to use Forest.
- Taxes 4.6.0

2190 BC - Discover Mysticism start Polytheism
- Worker1 starts mine.
- Trade Mysticism, Pottery and 6 gold to Carthage for Alphabet

2150 BC - Worker2 north to prep roads for next city

2110 BC - Worker2 starts road.

2070 BC - Trade Mysticism +33 Gold to Celts for the Wheel.

1990 BC - Worker2 starts irrigation.

1950 BC - Warrior1 dies attacking Barbarian Camp.

1910 BC - Worker1 starts road. (Sorry lost track of him for a while)
- Uskadar builds spearman, starts barracks

1870 BC - Warrior2 disperses another camp. Think I'll stop that and let the camps
- be an inconvienence to Carthage.
- Taxes to 1.9.0

1750 BC - Warrior2 on way north disperses another encampment

1675 BC - Worker2 finishes irrigation on cattle in north, starts road.

1650 BC - Found Izmit 3n, 1nw of Sogut.
- Trade 3 gpt, 61g + Alphabet to Celts for Horseback Riding.
- Barbarians sack Izmit for 3 gold.

1625 BC - From now on MM game between Sogut and Uskadar (Sogut gets 2 turns, Uskadar 1)

1600 BC - Worker1 mine

1575 BC - Taxes to 7.3.0

Note: Sorry, but somewhere in here my notes got messed up. Not sure where everything is.

1550 BC - Discover Polytheism, start Monarchy
- Iznik builds Settler, starts warrior
- Uskadar builds Barracks, starts warrior
- Worker1 starts road on iron mountain.
- New Settler to coast delta
- Taxes to 9.1.0

1525 BC - Found Aydin west (nw of western spice)

1475 BC - Found Antalya on nw edge of the river delta west and a little south from Sogut

1425 BC - Have decided to take out Celts, Start building warriors + $$$ for upgrade when road
- is done

1375 BC - Sogut builds Settler, starts Spearman
- Send settler se, e, e to coast
- Returning Warrior from south dies fighting barbarians.

1350 BC - Izmit builds worker, starts another.
- Worker2 heads for BG.

1325 BC - Worker1 to sw of fish
- Trade Polytheism to Carthage for Writing + 223 Gold.
- Found Bursa (se, e, e from Sogut)

1300 BC - Upgrade 6 warriors in Uskadar to Swordsmen.
- Sogut produces spearman, start settler


1275 BC - Workers continue to irrigate plains.
- Worker1 mines BG near Uskadar
- Swordsmen move out. 2 Veterans will move due east to Camuldunom, 4 will move south to other
- Celtic city. Then will head for Entremont.

1200 BC - Declare war on Celts. Enter territory.

1175 BC - Worker to cattle in nw to prep next city
- Swordsmen capture camulodunum on coast ne of dyes.
- The stack of 4 swordsmen encounter a settler with warrior.
- I lose 1 swordsman, but take the settler with the 2nd. (slaves move north)
- The other 2 swordsmen in stack sack the city (can't remember the name)

1150 BC - Carthage dmands Territory Map and 18 gold. Can't afford to fight now, so I give it.

1125 BC - Sogut builds Settler, starts Pyramids
- Antalya builds spearman, starts settler
- Found Edirne se of fish in north east inlet.1


1025 BC - Swordsmen capture Entremont
- Trade World Map + 8 gold to Carthage for W Map. Sight red (sure it's rome) on island east
- of Carthage.

1000 BC - Found Istanbul - 2 ne from the horses in the west (using the cattle)
- Uskadar switch to Settler
- Set Tech to 1.9.0925 BC - Trade 22 Gold + World Map to Carthage for World Map

------------------------------------
End QSC - Go to sparser Commentary.

850 BC - ***Carthage build Oracle in Carthage
825 BC - Discover Monarchy - Start Mathematics
800 BC - Found Kyona
775 BC - Capture Lugdunum (Took a while to let it grow culturally)
- Peace with Celts for Verulamium
- Celts left with only Richborough
- ***Spain builds Colossus in Seville
670 BC - Found Kafa
650 BC - Found Davidople
630 BC - Monarchy established. Will stay here for a long time.
- Found Alexmanika
610 BC - Trade Monarchy to Rome for Philosophy, Code of Laws,
Mathematics and 24 Gold
- Sell Monarchy to Carthage for 263 Gold
- Research Currency
490 BC - Found Emanopidu
- ***India builds Great Library in Delhi
470 BC - Meet Egypt with Galley sent west across ocean
- Trade Polytheism to Egypt for Literature, World Map + 60 Gold
- Trade Polytheism + 147 Gold to China for Construction
- Trade Polytheism to Spain for Indian Contact, World Map + 37 Gold
- Trade Polytheism to India for World Map + 127 Gold
430 BC - Discover Currency - Ancient Era Ends

I have at last progressed enough to read this thread. This is my first GOTM.

In the initial position I moved the warrior to the mountains to the east, saw the Game, lux and a lot of BG and move the settler SE to found Sogat.

My first warrior explored east and then south when the coast got in the way so I met the Celts and Carthagains quite soon.

By 1000BC (when I handed in my QSC, just in time) I had 10 towns and a settler in place to build number 11. I also had a number of horsemen and warriors running arround:D

Just after 1000BC I got the :hammer: out and attacked and destroyed the celts before they could get their iron hooked up, at the time they had 6 cities two of which I kept.

I then traded for contact with the Romans. I had a lot of problems with the squid, every ship I built lasted at most two turns before being eaten:( .

It was then :hammer: time again. I checked the carthigians and saw they didn't have their iron hooked up either and attacked. It was around this point that I discovered that thier UU dosen't require iron:cry:

As it happened they couldn't stand up to my horsemen and (so far) I have taken 4 cities including their captial. They were also kind enough to build the pyramids two turns before my horsemen rode in :D

It is now 10BC (as of last night) and I am in anarchy and the middle ages (the final tech came from the peace deal with Carthage).

I suspect I wated too long to go for republic and spent too long in despotism. I have also favoured horsemen over swordsmen as trhey will upgrade to my UU (I hope).

My only worry is I wont have time to finish before the end of the month (I suspect I'll sepnd all day Saturday playing)


Andrew

PART ONE - ANCIENT TIMES – 4000 to 250 AD

4000 In the beginning warrior climbs mountain to the north, worker up mountain east, settler crosses river southeast.

3950 Founded Sogut, barracks in 14, worker to deer to clear and irrigate, warrior explores nearby, research pottery 90 % for zero income complete in 17 with 35 in treasury.

3800 Warrior the Hut discovers a coastline to the west with nasty looking weather off-shore.

3600 Deer forest cleared, barracks in 5, start to irrigate. PFC (production, food, commerce) is 2,4,4 and growth in 3.

3450 Culture expansion. Adjust entertainment to accommodate pop of two. There are silks and dyes down south.

3400 Celtic reg warrior comes from the southeast. We trade masonry for warrior code. We don’t get ceremonial burial.

3350 complete barracks and start warrior in 5. Worker starts mine southwest of city on south river bank.

3200 We discover pottery which we offer to Celts for ceremonial burial but they want 17 gold as well so forget it – can do without until settlers are available. Pop goes to 3 and I set entertainment to 30% and research at 10% for iron in 40. Warrior the Hut spies another shore to the west.

3100 Warrior the First is completed and we start work on a granary in 15. Riverside mine and road are completed, population is 3 and PFC is 4, 10, 7. Worker starts another mine sw of the previous next to the river.

3000 Warrior the Hut sees a giant squid in the western ocean. The Celtic warrior has been bumping around west and southwest of the city for several moves.

Ranking is Rome, India, Carthage, Egypt, Celts, Chinese, Spanish and me.

2950 A barbarian galley shows up on the western sea. Warrior the Hut finds heavy jungle south on the western seashore. I will move him west, find out where the Celts come from.

2900 Pop is 4 and PFC is 6, 12, 7 with growth in 4 and granary in 7. Warrior the Hut finds gems in the southwestern jungles by a lake.

2800 Celts still want 17 gold sweetener to trade burial for pottery – hold off till I am ready to build a temple. Start a road to the southern jungle dyes.

2750 Barb galley on the shores of the eastern sea. Celtic boundaries spotted to the south.

2670 Pop is 5. Entertainment is 40%, research 50% for iron in 29 and PFC is 7, 14, 8. There are at least two Celt cities. Mmp to slow city growth a bit until colony is in place.

2590 spot more dyes within Celtic boundaries.

2510 Now see boundary with Celts. Mmf and change to settler to plant on hill above jungle spices – a colony is not enough.

2430 Sogut completes settler and starts an archer. Set entertainment to 0% and research to 70% for iron in 15. Break even with 53 in treasury.

2390 Sogut in flames – reset entertainment to 10 and slowed research.

2350 Pop is 4, PFC is 6, 12, 8. Growth in 3. Trade pottery and 17 gold to Celts for burial – need a temple for my new city of the south.

Build Iznic three square south of Sogut and complete road to bring dyes in. Our first happy face. E/R (entertainment/research) is 10/70.

2190 A Pict shows up from the southwest. Our new archer cuts him down but does not become Elite.

Sogut pop is 6 with growth in 3. E/R is 20/50 with iron in 5. PFC is 7, 16, 9.

Iznic is building a temple and has about 30% corruption. PFC = 3, 4, 4.

1990 Ranking is Rome, India, Egypt, Spain, Cartage, China, Celts and us. Celtic warrior kills a Pict coming in from the eastern seaboard and is now a vet.

1910 Sogut completes settler and starts a temple. E/R set at 10/10. With iron one away we are putting 8 in the treasury this turn.

1870 Iron in the mountain north of Sogut. Need another worker – the first is opening a road to the gems southwest and the settler is heading that way.

1830 Warrior the Hut spots spices to the west of the gem fields. The Celtic warrior appears to have overrun a barb village on the river delta point to the east. We need a port down that way.

1790 Carthage shows up to trade alphabet for burial and 60 gold. A bit steep – maybe later if catapults look necessary.

1750 Sogut burns again. E/R = 20/60. Wheel in 12.

Found Uskudar next to the lake southwest. We will soon have a second happy face.

1725 – 1700 Bad new, Pelt rider and warrior up north. A giant squid in the eastern sea.
Celts have started a city on the eastern point – too bad.

1625 Sogut mmf. Archer kills barb horseman in north and faces barb warrior from the top of a mountain The Celts are building the Oracle.

1600 Road to gems completed. Pict in the north wanders off.

1575 Archer nails barb warrior up north and discovers a barb camp across a small lake. Good place for a city. Sogut completes worker who heads for the iron. Building an archer in three with growth in 5.

E/R = 10/70, wheel in 3, 76 in treasury, breaking even.

1525 the archer, approaching the barb village is badly hurt by a mounted barb. He will fortify in the woods.

1500 Celt and Carthage warriors nosing around out western edges – probable settlers coming soon. Could use the slaves. E/R = 0/80 with alphabet in 9, break even.

1475 overrun barbs up north for 25 gold . There are four Carthage warriors poking around in the west and a Pict up north.

1450 see a Celt warrior die attacking something out west. There is a Pict northwest of Sogut and the archer moves north.

Complete road to iron and change production to swordsman in 2. Pop is 7 with growth in 15. PFC = 10, 16, 11 with minor corruption. The two workers start a road to the silks now within our cultural influence up north.

1425 archer finishes off mounted warrior on shores of the north sea.

1400 archer kills Pict warrior north of the Sogut mountain range. Our first swordsman is ready and a second is on the way in four.

1375 Iznik completes temple and starts a barracks in 20 – this is the most likely area for war with the Celts.

1350 good thing I moved the swordsman north to cover the workers going after the silk – a Kassite horseman showed up and was cut to pieces – unfortunately no Elite status. E/R = 0/90 with alphabet in 2, 100 in treasury and net loss 2 per turn.

1325 road to silks complete – have three happy faces. Pict warrior and Kassite rider coming in from the northwest. See a pair of squid near the fog off the northern coast. Have seen no horse at all – where are these barb riders getting theirs? Swordsman defeats barb horseman and the archer destroys the Pict warrior – still no promotions to Elite.

1300 Mmg in Sogut. Pop is 7 with growth in nine and another swordsman in 4. PFC = 10, 16, 11.

1250 Swordsman and archer moving northeast to explore our peninsula and whack a Pict village. There is silk all over up here. The fog bank up north has move to the eastern shores.

1225 The archer moves to the hills overlooking a vast northwestern grass land. Switched to settler in Sogut due in two. Workers are building mines and roads around the capital.

1175 barb warrior dies attacking swordsman in the northeast. Pict warrior up north again.

1150 Pict village spotted way northwest. Archer and swordsman closing in. Up north archer tracks another Pict warrior.

1100 Swordsman overruns Pict village for 25g. See another Pict village on north shore beyond where next city is about to go in.

1075 Picts warrior threatens Uskudar in the east – worker retreats and swordsman move in from Iznik. Found Izmet up north and start building a temple.

1050 archer overruns barb camp across from Izmet and collects 25g.

1025 complete road to Izmet. Swordsman chops up Pict threatening in Uskudar area. Do these creatures have a death wish? Still no Elite status. Rome appears with writing, mysticism and horseback riding. We buy a territorial map for 40g.

1000 [saved game here] Must finish exploring the northwest peninsula. Hopefully I will find horses. I am most worried about Celtic swordsmen and a GA. Next step is to control iron in the south jungle in hopes of stopping this problem.

My prime strategy is to block access to the entire peninsula to the north until I have settled it. I must prepare a road system to ambush invading settler crews et al. I will soon have catapults to run on these roads.

There is a Celtic settler group to the south – if it passes Uskudar I must attack. I don’t think it is going for the iron because the AI never does.

975 There are horse in the newly explored far northwestern point and also spices. A new settler is heading west. Must fill the peninsula and hold out foreign all settlers.

510 War looms - there are two Celtic settlers poking around and that is four slaves. Settlers to the west and forces to the east. I believe we have founded a city on the only Celtic iron - if this is true they can not build Gallic Warriors and can not get GA this way.

490 World ranking for score: Rome, 653; Carthage, 388; Celts, 342; Ottomans, 290. The Forbidden Palace is available.

310 Made peace with the Celts and got a territorial map. Want to be ready to ambush some Carthaginian slaves when the settler teams come in. We got five or seven slaves from the Celtic wars and they will provide years of free labor.

270 BC captured four more slaves with ambush of two Carthaginian settler teams.


10 AD ranking for wealth: Spain, Turks, Egyptians, Romans, Celt, Indians, Carthaginians, Chinese.

30 We have captured 11 slaves in the border wars with the Celts and the Carthaginians and are now at peace. Our next move will be against the Celts when our peace treaty runs out in a couple of moves. We must get their iron west-southwest of Entremont so they can not build GSs. Our great northwestern area is not completely settled - there are lucrative Pict villages springing up and they are good earners. Roman galleys off northeast shore may carry settlers.

50 We establish an embassy with the Carthaginians. Pop there is 7 with three happy faces, two unhappy faces and two jokers. PFC = 7, 16, 21. They have the great pyramid which I need, but that comes later. They have horse and iron, and two luxuries, spices and good incense. This is guarded by a garrison of 7 Macedonian spearmen.

90 Twenty turns have passed and the peace treaty with the Celts has expired. Wait one more turn to see what the roman galleys up north are doing.

250 India put settler ashore at the empty north point. Two more slaves and a distant war against a naval power. Ironic their ship brought so much trade with the other continent. Meanwhile the war against the Celt progresses well and a second settler is about to go in along the southern shores. The mountain above Entremont is fortified and four catapults are in place.

END OF ANCIENT TIMES – PART ONE
Gotm19 4000 BC thru 250 AD.

kiregh