Since there are some complains every month about possible cheating in the GOTM, I'm sure some of us probably sick of hearing that by now. For example, if someone didn't mention that (s)he will go in a certain direction in the Pre-Game discussion, someone may wonder if (s)he cheats rather than just a lucky guess. Therefore, that leads me to yet another crazy idea.:D I think it's possible to build a utility to detect ALL possible cheatings. For example, we could build a utility to track the player sessions. Basically, it may work as follows:

1. Every time we fire up a session, we need to fire up this utility program first, and it will send a message to the GOTM server to indicate that we are about to start up another session of the GOTM.

2. Similar to the program that SpiderZord is working on another thread, this utility will log certain memory variables, etc.

3. When we end our session or exit Civ3, the utility will automatically send/post the session log to the GOTM database. Of course, there will be other tools for analyzing those logs for abnormal activities, etc.

What do you think? Is it doable? If yes, do you support it (since you have to remember to fire up this utility before you play the GOTM)? In any case, I'm just throwing out idea; the rest is up to you and the GOTM staffs.

PS: Like Elle Woods (Legally Blonde) I have faith in humanity, but I wish I can say the same to some of you. Therefore, this ultility is really for those who don't really trust your peers.

One problem is that in much of the world online access is charged by time used. If a player needs to be online 15+ hours to finish a game, it could be costing quite a bit of money.

Also, even commercial online games with dedicated servers and technicians still have trouble with cheaters. Even 'low tech' cheats could get around something like this. Off the top of my head, the player could script moves out offline, and then play them out online to completely circumvent the process.

It's doable but it would require the following:

Massive resources (assume 50 gaming sessions per GOTM'er at 300k per gaming session and 150 GOTM'ers adds ~2gb per month to the bandwidth cost for civfanatics.)

Persistent internet, or at least reliable internet connection for all GOTM'ers. Just the other day some yo-yo cutting his lawn cut our cable connection. It was out for 24'ish hours (cut on a Saturday, fixed Sunday afternoon. If I had been in the middle of a marathon session and had been unable to submit the upload to the server, I would have likely wanted to kill someone.

Also, what's to prevent someone from getting the save, loading some sort of cheat utility or debugging program, playing to the steam age or thereabouts and then restarting WITH the utility program and playing with lots of knowledge.

That being said, anti-cheat mechanisms aren't a bad thing, but anything that requires an additional program/utility is going to cause the game to be played by fewer people.

Personally, I enjoy seeing my score, and am happy to be in the top 50. I could care less about a medal as I am not a micromanager. My workers get set to auto after my main core of cities are connected...because I simply have things I'd rather do than micromanage a civ game. GOTM19 took me 15 hours and 50 minutes and that's cause I went for spaceship and left the game on for about 4 hours w/o playing it. I could have finished in under 10 hours...that is my style of playing.

I am sick of hearing about cheating too..but I pretty much ignore the ppl who complain about it, as in the larger scheme of things, it's irrelevant :)

P.S. I enjoyed Legally Blonde. Elle has TOO much faith in humanity, as humanity is basically corrupt, but it makes for a nice movie. Looking forward to the sequel this summer!

I'm afraid that it has the usual flaw. Nothing (except time) is stopping people from copying a savegame, playing a dozen variations and only then firing up the utility and replay the best of those twelve attempts. In the end, faith is all we have.

Originally posted by Aeson
One problem is that in much of the world online access is charged by time used. If a player needs to be online 15+ hours to finish a game, it could be costing quite a bit of money.

That's true.:( Sorry, I forgot all about that. In that case, may be we just need a few minute to initialize the session, then we can be offline after that. When we end the game we need to be online again for another minute to transmit the end of session log.

Also, even commercial online games with dedicated servers and technicians still have trouble with cheaters. Even 'low tech' cheats could get around something like this. Off the top of my head, the player could script moves out offline, and then play them out online to completely circumvent the process.

Another loophole that I haven't thought about. Sorry, we can throw this thread into the trash now.:(

Originally posted by Moonsinger
For example, if someone didn't mention that (s)he will go in a certain direction in the Pre-Game discussion, someone may wonder if (s)he cheats rather than just a lucky guess.
Perhaps we should be required to "register" our opening moves in the pre-game discussion before the game file is available. That could prevent some of the bickering that seems to be going on.

Originally posted by Moonsinger
I think it's possible to build a utility to detect ALL possible cheatings. For example, we could build a utility to track the player sessions.
I'm afraid I think this one's a non-starter. There are still many ways to circumvent this type of arrangement never mind the technical requirements.

There will always be "cheating" or "bending of the rules" by a number of players in any sort of competitive event. In the final analysis you just have to ask yourself is the journey more important than arriving at the destination?

For me GOTM is all about learning and taking part. My ranking is an objective way of discovering whether or not I'm improving as a player and I was really disappointed I didn't manage to complete GOTM 18.

I guess others may be more interested in seeing their name in lights and, let's face it, once you're at the top there's really no place to go but down :)


regards

Ted

.

I just want to share with you a calming perspective that I do not think that there is any measurable amount of behavior problems within the GOTM games compared to what you will find outside of this process.

Looking at hundreds of games each month provides as fairly distinctive way to measure things that are extremely screwy if they happen to be detected.

While I cannot share with you every minute detail, I can say that looking at 200 to 250 game files each month and then finding only 10 or 12 that even come close to raising even a plae yellow flag that could include evidence of software or hardware problems is a truly amazing statistic.

We could not say this in August and September of last year, but today we can safely say that each month's games do provide a fair a realistic representation of the game play process without a lot of room for incursion by screwiness that will do anything significant to destabilize or un-level the playing field.

Some of this has a lot to do with each little bit we get to know each other better but in the background we have a world class staff team and a measurable set of play and scoring standards that grows stronger with every game. We are also reasonably proactive to try and address emerging issues even though we can always do more if they will just pass that law that will add the 25th hour and/or the eighth day to the calendar.

Originally posted by cracker
... even though we can always do more if they will just pass that law that will add the 25th hour and/or the eighth day to the calendar.
Pluterday. We desperately need a Pluterday added to the week. :crazyeye:

Moonsinger's idea seems very good, but I can see one obvious problem to do with my playing style.

Often I'll do high risk strategy's with a low risk of reward, ie moving next to a barb to uncover the map quicker and just hoping I'll survive the attack.

The problem with a logger is that it will record such spurious moves and make me look like a cheater - when what I am is a gambler (and not a successful one at that!).

In other words, this method wouldn't necessarily catch the cheats (see above posts) - but it sure would make people suspicious of SOME of my moves. MOST of my moves don't make sense anyway, but they don't lead to an advantage :) :) :)

Quite apart from the drag of writing and bug testing such a logger.

Sorry Moonsinger, I think this particular idea is not the way forward.

Originally posted by TedJackson
I guess others may be more interested in seeing their name in lights and, let's face it, once you're at the top there's really no place to go but down :)

That line does sound familiar. Are you sure you didn't borrow that from me?;)


I do agree with everyone that this is a bad idea. What can I say...an idea just popped in my head and I posted without thinking too much about it at the time. Let's all agree that this idea won't fly and let's put it to rest.:) Anyway, I do like Ted's idea about posting the opening moves in the pre-game discussion before the game file is available. I would definitely do more of that in my next game.:)

There are other ways to cheat besides reloading. Just go into the spoiler thread at the 5th of each month, and make your plan from there. This is what I personally think some people do.

Anyway, I do like Ted's idea about posting the opening moves in the pre-game discussion before the game file is available.

I like this idea too. Only I usually change my mind after I move the first unit. This happened to me this month. I had a great plan for the first three turns or so (at least in my mind) and then I moved one unit and saw something different, so time for a new plan. Plans don't seem to last very long in this game. At least not in mine.
:cry:

That's a very good point Creepster. Someone once said (Patton, maybe?) that no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

And let's not forget that most players don't post in any threads. You shouldn't be forced to participate in the discussion to play the GOTM.

Another point is that crashes always forces you to reload. I had two crashes in my game already, forcing me to reload from the autosaves.

Originally posted by Ribannah

Pluterday. We desperately need a Pluterday added to the week. :crazyeye:

Good idea! :D

But why do you call it "Pluterday"? :confused:

And... it won't be another working day, will it? :eek:

Originally posted by Moonsinger
That line does sound familiar. Are you sure you didn't borrow that from me?;)

Oh no! I'm cheating with words now :lol:

Originally posted by Moonsinger
I do agree with everyone that this is a bad idea. What can I say...an idea just popped in my head and I posted without thinking too much about it at the time. Let's all agree that this idea won't fly and let's put it to rest.:) Anyway, I do like Ted's idea about posting the opening moves in the pre-game discussion before the game file is available. I would definitely do more of that in my next game.:)
Like you I didn't consider my idea, just posted what was in my head. On reflection, and reading some of the other posts here, I can see that it might discourage some players. So that one's a non-starter too.

regards

Ted

@moonsinger: Some people (like me) don't have internet access from home and download the GOTM and post their game logs from work. You suggested utility would make it impossible for me to play the GOTM, so I don't really like your idea at all....

Originally posted by Darkness
@moonsinger: Some people (like me) don't have internet access from home and download the GOTM and post their game logs from work. You suggested utility would make it impossible for me to play the GOTM, so I don't really like your idea at all....

I concur! This is one of my bad idea. However, I sometimes do come up good ideas too. Basically, I have some pretty good ideas and some very bad ideas. I guess it's all part of being human:(; therefore, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me and to pretend that you have never read this thread.:cry:

Originally posted by Moonsinger


I concur! This is one of my bad idea. However, I sometimes do come up good ideas too. Basically, I have some pretty good ideas and some very bad ideas. I guess it's all part of being human:(; therefore, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me and to pretend that you have never read this thread.:cry:

Sure thing! :lol:

Already done, 'cause I've got a memory like a sieve anyway (or so my girlfriend says...;) )

Edit: spelling fixed

But why do you call it "Pluterday"?


Probably because the other days of the week are named after mythological gods (Tyr, Saturn, Wotan, Thor, Freya) and Uranusday doesn't sound very good :D

But Ribannah might have a different answer

After the SF novel "Where Were You Last Pluterday?" by Paul van Herck. :)

IIRC the Pluterday is between Monday and Tuesday, and only accessible by some happy few.

:ack: I have missed this Pluterday! My calendar says Tuesday and I am sure yesterday I was in a Monday...

Therefore, I am not one of the lucky few. :hmm: do you know how one qualifies for Pluterdays?

Pluterdays are easy to find, you just need to add the proper graphics mod to your calendar.

(sorry, i couldn't help that one).

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Pluterdays are easy to find, you just need to add the proper graphics mod to your calendar. :beer: :lol:

Originally posted by Hurricane
Another point is that crashes always forces you to reload. I had two crashes in my game already, forcing me to reload from the autosaves.

I was wondering. Is reloading leaves a distinctive mark in the save files ?


And in general, how can you tell a save file has been tempered with and/or someone used unfair methods while playing ?

I'm not asking for every details of course but I'd like to know the easiest ways to detect if there's something wrong with a game file.

I think the number of reloads can be detected. I doubt if they can detect whether games are reloaded from autosave or saves (and it really doesn't matter).

Also, outrageous things can be detected simply because they change the outcome of the game so outrageously. If you cheat and give yourself 100k gold for example, the results of something like that will be obvious.

@the carp

There are some other ways of telling whether there has been tampering with the file as far as I know but I am not a computer guru as some of the staff here so I cannot tell you exactly but if you change the .sav file or your own .bic, .bix file directly, the change can be observed. And yes, there are those obvious things like conquering two nations each twice as big as you in three turns simultaneously, or having your opponents mysteriously refuse to build more than one city, or building one wonder every two turns, until there are no more wonders to build.
What I do and advise you to do is stay confident that everything possible is made to make sure the results are fair. And do not attempt to cheat for you will be uncovered.

Edit: Just noticed that you know your PHP and YourSqL so until I will find out what that letters mean please refer to the staff if you want to help or something. :D

Originally posted by cracker

We could not say this in August and September of last year, but today we can safely say that each month's games do provide a fair a realistic representation of the game play process without a lot of room for incursion by screwiness that will do anything significant to destabilize or un-level the playing field.


What happened in August and September of last year?

Then and before, there was little control on the scores and how did some of the players reach that scores. Search in older GOTM for saves of VK or Valeri Kousnetsov.

Thanks for the info everyone.
It's good to know there are ways to spot cheaters; although it seems like it's possible for clever ones to cover their tracks. I think we shouldn't put too much effort into this. Sure it's annoying for the honest players, especially for those who deserve recognition from their peers, but does it really matters if someone cheats?

I see the GOTM concept as a means for us to compare our playing skills with other members of the community in a friendly competitive environment and improve those skills at the same time. Of course, the awards and ranking systems are stimulating and fun ways to see if you're doing well (or not). But in the end you are your own judge. You're the one who knows if you really deserve it or not. So if someone needs to cheat to get an award or a good rank then [ sarcasm ] congrats chumpy! :thumbsup: [ /sarcasm]. They are just proving to themselves they are good at "hacking" a game file and lying !

If that person realises that they don't deserve it (most people will) then they will get bored of doing that really quickly. If they don't, and enjoy doing so, then I really pity them because they are only lying to themselves!

Originally posted by Yndy

Just noticed that you know your PHP and YourSqL so until I will find out what that letters mean please refer to the staff if you want to help or something. :D

YourSQL :lol:

"PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML."
The PHP Group (http://www.php.net/)

PHP stands for "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor". I think it's a bit silly but recursive acronyms are very popular among open source project circles. Go figure!
Combined with a database like MySQL (http://www.mysql.com/) It let you do very dynamic webpages.
In fact, this very forum is using a MySQL database and is coded in PHP.

I would really like to help if I can. It would be cool :cool:
Is there a thread where I can offer my help or is it better if I pm a staff member directly ?

You can Volunteer (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51611) here or you can PM cracker.
I have heard about those web development tools but just don't have the time to study them. Maybe when I'll build my own web page. Anyway if I want to study more IT I should study VBA, that I would really use.
As you noticed, one can probably hack the code but that is not playing at all, where would the fun be?

The solution to cheating would be easy for firaxis to program - something as simple as a turn counter would work. We have to put up a pound of cure for lack of an ounce of prevention.