Beginning with Gotm20-Spanish we will introduce the concept of allowing players to choose to participate fully in the standard "Open Class" GOTM game or to potentially self select into a more casual game or a more intense game that will be played on the same map.

The Gotm20-Spanish game will be a Deity level event which will see the introduction of the first "Conquest" Class game option in addition to the more standard "Open Class" game that experienced players will still play.

Like the progression of some sports events (like the Boston Marathon) the central event of the GOTM will continue to be the "Open Class" game just like all the games we have played in recent months. All players will be measured against the results tables and standards set by the experienced and successful "Open Class" players.

Several things combine to make it possible for us to begin offering the option for a "Conquest Class" game. No other game venue outside of the GOTM could probably support this sort of offering because only in the GOTM will you find a database of nearly 2000 prior game results that can be used to set the conditions for a more casual competition that can support comparison to the play in the open competition. We also have the advantages of the GOTM Ranking and scoring system that can fairly score games that are played under slightly different conditions. The long term score of an individual player is not effected by whether some other player submits a game score that is 30 or 40 points lower or even 30 or 40 points higher.

Conquest Class games will be played on the same maps as Open Class Games and will start from exactly the same starting positions. The production difficulty levels and AI costs advantages will be the same for games in the Open and Conquest classes of play. Instead of changing the game mechanics by reducing the key features that get set in the "difficulty level" we will use other techniques to encourage players to rise to new challenges and conquer fundamental game play issues by comparing their games directly to the games of the experienced players.

Players who have played previous GOTM games and finished in the upper 50% of the rankings should continue to play the Open Class games and will not have the option of recording scores for the Conquest Class versions of the game.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif The primary difference between the Open Class games and Conquest Class games, will be that the Conquest Class players will receive a map appropriate set of opening bonuses that will be designed to help them cross over an early strategic decision/performance threshold. These bonuses will allow Conquest Class players to more actively experience the challenges of the game while learning to compare their decisions to the decisions, techniques, and strategies of some of the more experienced players under similar game conditions.

As an example, depending on the actual difficulty level of the Open Class game, the Conquest Class players could begin the game with any number of combinations that could include an extra settler, extra units, extra technologies, extra workers, special defensive bonuses, and/or the ability to selectively rush early improvements or units. The intent of the bonuses for the Conquest Class games will be to instill confidence and perhaps address one or two early strategic decisions in a way that will let the Conquest Class players focus in on key issues associated with playing games at the same level as the Open Class players.

While somewhat like divisions of competition, introducing the Conquest Class play is significantly different because it addresses some of the major drawbacks associated with division play. Divisions may tend to segregate games into groups that often bear little or no strategic similarity to each other due to irreconcilable discrepencies in how the production bonuses and AI cost advantages function at the different difficulty levels.

The pace of games in divisions can also be so radically different that players can rarely discuss or share experiences at similar timeline points outside of the limited confines of their immediate self-selected peer groups. Because the pace of Conquest Class games will be very similar to Open Class games, players will be able to discuss Ancient Age events and decisions from a more parallel perspective.

The Conquest Class Games will also facilitate broader discussion and strategy comparisons that can be notably absent when the experienced players self-select out of the lower divisions. When there are few dominating play examples and when the next higher division level has such fundamental cost factor differences, it leaves a much more limited set of examples of strategic play choices which players can use to learn by comparison and observation.

QSC - or Quick Start Challenge
Conquest Class players will be strongly encouraged to participate in the Quick Start Challenge events by submitting a 1000bc save file along with a timeline of their game events up to that point in the game. QSC games that begin with the Conquest Class starting bonuses will have their QSC scores adjusted downward by a fixed number of QSC power points to subtract the value and impact that the added bonuses will have on their game.
As an example: One added settler in the Conquest Class game will have an added point value of 84 (territory) + 20 (town) + 25 (population) + 300 (accumulated production) or 429 points that the open class players would have to build on their own but that the Conquest Class players would be given in their starting bonus allocations.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif Conquest Class games will be internally marked for identification by the GOTM scoring process but it would be helpful if Conquest Class players would display the Treasure Chest icon at the beginning of all their message posts in any strategy or spoiler discussion threads so that other players can help to keep any discussions framed in the proper context.

woohoo, a class for noobs like me :D Actually, with the addition of a slightly easier version of the main gotm, I will participate now, at least for < Emperor games.

Great idea! I'm still working on winning a GOTM. Although I am improving, a little help will be appreciated.

I think you are implementing this idea the right way. By having both classes use the same map, etc., everyone will be able to benefit from the open class discussions.

Thank's cracker and crew this should help me win a gotm before civ4 comes out lol

Love the concept! However I'd like to suggest a different name as 'Conquest' may become confused with the new expansion pack.

:hmm:

This is interesting but I am wondering what the criteria is to participate in these new classes. Is it a personal choice or is it based on past performance?

Also, is this only for deity level games or all future GOTM games?

I think I will be playing "OPEN" class but am interested in seeing how the extra units effect game play, QSC etc.

Quick question for Cracker or Aeson: Do we allow to have dairy cows in the "Conquest" class?;) If yes, how does that affect the Jason Scoring System?

//Edit: Never mind! You don't have to answer the above question because I just found out that I won't be allowed to play in this class and I doubt that anyone else would care much for the dairy cows.:cry:

Originally posted by hotrod0823
This is interesting but I am wondering what the criteria is to participate in these new classes.

I was wondering the same thing. I believe that I have never scored in the top 50% but I'm not sure. Is it possible to create a list of those DIS-qualified from play at the "Conquest" class?

I will enjoy this version, at least for the GOTM #20. I will probably use Conquest for Emperor and Diety games and Open Class for the other lower level ones.

Cracker,

Your diligent and painstaking efforts continue to amaze the entire GOTM community! Thanks so much for your work! Bravo! :goodjob:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif

@Cracker: I note that the new Predator class will be PTW-only in June. Please say Conquest class will be available for vanilla Civ3?


The reason I ask is that Conquest clearly fits my current playing level more closely than the Open competition. But I have a Mac and vanilla 1.29f http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/mac.jpg, with no option to run PTW.

I've just started to shadow the GOTM process this month, with zero previous emperor/deity experience, and it's already been a great learning opporunity. If I can have a crack at GOTM #20 in Conquest mode I may even get to submit something in June.

Wow, an unexpected treat! I don't have time to digest all this now, but it sounds like a good thing. Diety conquest may sound a bit contradictory, but we'll see. Guess I have to hurry up and finish the Ottomans now.

AlanH (et al):

Yes the CONQUEST class game will be available in PTW and/or Civ3v1.29 so that all players have access.

The only major reasons for saying that the PREDATOR Class game for Gotm20-Spain would be PTW only was because of the emphasis of the Barbarian activity difference and then just to reduce the number of game file permutations that me have to manage and store.

We will monitor player response to the CONQUEST Class games to see if these do help us meet the objectives of being open and inclusive while still keeping the "One Game" feel to the process.

i read the main post above but i could not quite get what it said about scoring, are the easier conquest player going to be scored along with all the people who play on the open game or even predator game? or part of there score going to be deducted (because they ARE playing on an easier level)

The current plan is score and rank CONQUEST Class games right along side their peers in the OPEN and PREDATOR class games. The intent will be to fold the two sets of results together into a single list of results using some general expectations.

We believe that the scores from the CONQUEST Class games will need to be multiplied by a weighting factor (guestimating 85%) in order to have the games come out equivalent to games played in the Open Class that represent similar skill and performance by players at comparable levels of experience. We will solidify this scoring offset factor over the next several months. The intent would be to have two players who are normally about equal and then to compare player A in the Conquest Class game versus player B in the Open Class game. We have the ability to track a number of these paired comparisons and then make the statement that it is possible for the Conquest player to play a better game than the Open Class player but it must be because of emerging skill factors and not just because of the bonuses.

Because of the upper 50% cutoff criteria, it is not our expectation that the bonuses in the CONQUEST class games will give the players the tools to be competitive with the stronger players without applying some of the key strategies and skills that are already demonstrated in the GOTM games.

The upper 50% cutoff criteria is also at least partially self regulating because if you play the Conquest Class game and end up placing 49 out of 100, then from that point forward you need to play the Open or Predator Class games.

We will also use the "No Ringer Rule" just to make sure that players who should choose to play the Open Class games will make that decision appropriately. Two examples of players who would clearly choose not to play in the Conquest Class games would be Zwingli and Charis even though they have played some fantastic OCC and 2CC game that did not score well even though the games clearly demonstrated skills at or above the Open CLass level of play.

Edit: Deleted initial message as cracker just answered.
To fill empty space I'll ask how exactly is the cutoff determined?
a) top 50% in global ranking,
b) top 50% in last GotM ranking,
c) ever been in the top 50% of a GotM,
d) ever been in top 50 players of a GotM,
e) not clear but Moonsinger is definitely not allowed :)

Originally posted by cracker
AlanH (et al):

Yes the CONQUEST class game will be available in PTW and/or Civ3v1.29 so that all players have access.

Great! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Cracker :love:. I'll be there!

Originally posted by Yndy
e) not clear but Moonsinger is definitely not allowed :)
This is my favorite interpretation of the rule. ;)

The intent of the upper 50% rule is to look at any individual GOTM game and say that If you can score above the mid-line in the Open Class (which usually will but you in the victory categories) then you ought to be playing in the Open Class games.

The Global Ranking positions and Tiebtan Monk Rankings are two totally different issues and reflect other factors that may go beyond individual game performance.

There is a built in incentive here for the Conquest Class players to not plan on using the Conquest Class games on lower difficulty levels.

One of the reasons for introducing this concept in a month where the GOTM game is on Deity level is that the decision cutoffs may be much clearer for players who have been playing over the past 3 to 5 months when the games have been Monarch-Emperor-Regent-Monarch-Emperor.

We can also extend the general guidelines in principla to apply to players who have been playing in the tournament games but who may have no GOTM frame of reference. In general, players in the conscript and regular divisions of the tournament should look at the recent scoring positions for some of their division peers who have played the GOTM games and use that to guide their selection of a starting play choice.

The starting bonuses for the Conquest Class game are deliberately chosen to not be enough horsepower to keep you alive on Deity in the absence of taking some good advice and examples from the existing skilled players.

The QSC results for the Gotm20 game are going to be truly fascinating to see if and how the bonuses may impact early game performance.

I had to use the brown paper bag to control my excitement and distress when I read that the GOTM will be deity level next. Still haven't tried it ....

But I did read somewhere that to learn to play better you need to play with what the game gives you. I'm still debating about either the open class or the conquest class.

Cool, now we know what level to play training games on. :eek: For my part, this will mean 6 consecutive months of playing a higher level (first 2 on my own, last 4 trying to keep up with GOTM), out of 6 months playing civ3. After this one, the next one is certain to be a relief! :D

I'd like to suggest encouraging the conquest level players to use their QSc timelines to follow in detail the effects of whatever bonuses are provided. That will certainly be my plan...

Looking forward to a big step down (maybe back to Regent) and taking a crack at the predator class -- well maybe not until a win -- any win will do. ;)

What isn't clear here -
Could a low scoring player play #20 conquest, #21 open, #22 conquest, etc?

Lee,

Does this apply to you? ;)

but the answer is Yes; a consistently low scoring player could bounce around back and for between the different intensity levels.

In fact we are sort of hopin that will occur if that will make the conquest players more comfortable about trying new challenges.

As a player who this new system seems custom-made for, I have to say, I'm uncomfortable with the idea. I read everyone else's replies, and I too was excited by the prospect of getting a leg up on a game that repeatedly kicks me with the ol' Iron Boot. But, I can't help but feel that taking the easier path defeats the purpose of the competion both against the game and the other players, adjusted scores or not. I don't know if I'm crazy, but I never used training wheels and I have a deep seated hatred for haks, cheats etc., not to say this is cheating! But, I guess as a player it would mean less to me if I felt I didn't earn my (eventual) win. Hence the Hak-hate. This isn't the same thing, but even if I am a bottom 25% player, I want to win at the same game the Moonsingers, Yndys and SirPlebs and the other greats play(and dominate!). Maybe it's pride, but I don't want (my opinion) a crutch. I feel I learn something every month, and suddenly getting an advantage I didn't earn will throw off my learning curve! How will I know if my win was earned from my efforts or if it was from the add-ons? So thanks but no thanks, I will submit an Open game, most likely a bloodbath, but I will give it my best shot. Also, although I just trashed it, I can't say enough about the quantity and quality of the work Cracker and the other staff members do to make a great game into the GREATEST game! I liked playing before I found this site but the GOTMs are the greatest thing on the web! Like I said above, I've lost everytime but I keep coming back for more! Cracker, you are the MAN! Keep up the good work! Can't wait for the 1st of the month! By the way, July 1st is my Bday, any chance you could have something special for me? My favorite civ is Japan. . .just to let you know. . .:goodjob:

Originally posted by RocknOats
... this isn't the same thing, but even if I am a bottom 25% player, I want to win at the same game the Moonsingers, Yndys and SirPlebs and the other greats play(and dominate!). Maybe it's pride, but I don't want (my opinion) a crutch. I feel I learn something every month, and suddenly getting an advantage I didn't earn will throw off my learning curve! ...
RocknOats,
Just to emphasize here, that the bonuses designed into the Conquest class game are not designed to make the game totally easier in the big sense of the word "easier". What we have done is to look at the demands for strategic decison making and management skills that may be placed on the players in the Open Class game and then looked for ways to emphasize the importance of some of these skills in a way that will keep the less experienced players "in the game" for a longer period of time.

In another sense of the process, if there are 20 hurdles that have to be crossed to survive in a Deity level game, we have just chosen a few options to help get the Conquest class players over the first hurdle or two. You will still have to play a good game in Gotm20 to not become a war trophy to one of your aggressive neighbors.

You may be one of those players who are right where we really want you to be in the decision process. If you are having fun in the Open class games and you think that you get alot out of the games at that level in terms of improving your skills and feeling comfortable looking at the results of the QSC and the GOTM as a whole, then stay right where you are. If you feel that you could use the conquest class bonuses to play the exact same strategy that you would play in the Open Class game and you are not in the top 50% of the players yet, then you might just use this opportunity to see if the conquest class game will let play deeper into the timeline of the game.

Hopefully we will not have too many players who choose to use the conquest class bonuses to play a game that is radically different from the well played games in the Open and Predator classes. The idea is to try an preserve common elements of strategic game play so that players can learn to use the community participation aspects of the games to their benefit. Discussing the games from a common perspective is one of the fundamental tenets of the GOTM concept. We have many players who never cross the threshhold into the participation range because they see challenges as being too great and the competitive skills of the experienced players as being overwhelming. Anything we can do to incorporate these players into the game process while preserving the integrity of the gOTM process is something we should do.

In your specific case, if you can identify the the differences in the strategic decisions that you might make in the Conquest class with the extra available bonuses versus the decisions you would make in the Open Class game from the same starting position, the you are well ahead of the learning curve and we may have already accomplished our primary objective even before you make your first move in Gotm20-Spain, regardless of what level you choose to play on.

So, good luck and have fun, you now just have a little bit more flexibility to choose how you will accomplish this main entertainment part of the objective.

Hmmm. I think I have the same flaw that characters in TV shows have where they "don't want no charity!". An episode of "Little House on the Prairie" with Merlin Olsen comes to mind. I don't know why I can't enjoy this. As far as when you "accomplish your objective", if your objective is to entertain and challenge me, well then you have definitely succeeded! These games drive me nuts(in a good way)! I HAVE to win one eventually. As for when you talk about my plans and decision making process, I am NOT at that level of play. I can't follow what most people say about their games and play(for the most part) by the seat of my pants. I am a terrible player. I have tried to apply some lessons I have read here and either they don't work(my fault) or I don't understand how they worked! I know the basic systems inherent in the game, but how to use them to my advantage. . . Needless to say, my game has a lot of holes, and I don't think these additions will help me that much(they may screw me up even more!) it's just I can't get that charity thing out of my head. I have special problems.

This is interesting, having two different classes. And having gotten PTW working on my system, I could play on gotm20 under the conquests class.

mmm i remember the last deity game .... babylon ... that went horrible in every single possible sence of the word.

while I might have played quite a few number of games I usually try way to many stupid things and make one silly decision after the other and end up in the bottom half so I guess I could try that conquest class. perhaps then I won't die so quickly (mental note, remember to find a small island off somewhere to build a city on so I can hang in there until the bitter end).

but it will be a few days until i can start playing so I don't know ...