We now know almost enough area to start carving out some provinces. This is the same as our city plan map, if you noticed. Also, I'd like to try for 13-15 cities per province, as we're on a large map, with huge continents (as was selected). We could devide the land between the moutain range, or the hills. I'll draw up two possibilities after lunch.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_BC1550_worldmap.jpg

Provinces per world size

First up is the large provinces (13-15 cities per province). This is the one that let's us have atleast 10-13 provinces in the game, without having too many little provinces.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_BC1550_LargeProvinces.jpg

Traditional Provinces

Second is the more tradition border - having about 10 cities per province. This would allow for more provinces than the above (by 2 or so at game's end). Remember, once we hit 10-12 provinces, it starts putting a drain on the game (not a lot of players).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_BC1550_SmallProvinces.jpg

About 10 seems better. We dont, however, want a T9 to happen to us. We just cant support that many.

10? 10 cities? That means MORE provinces. 13-15 citeis means less provinces.

About 10 looks good. I doubt we will have huge territory acquisition this game as the folk are looking for something besides a conquest victory. Smaller world, less land taken, we won't get into the situation we did last game.

I think I'm partial to the first one too many provinces can be bad and confusing.

Smaller provinces would be better in one way, because the governors would have less to worry about, and could focus on the few cities they have. However, the more provinces we have, the more people can get directly involved in government.

Maybe if we made another attempt at giving mayors some real power...since we will likely have many fewer cities than we have had in the past, it should be possible to have one person solely devoted to the development of each one. The governor would have the final say, and actually post build queues to insure that national objectives aren't ignored. Just an idea...probably not the appropriate thread, but it is somewhat relevant.

I'd go for the larger provinces, just for the long term. I still fear what happened during the final term of DG2.

I like the smaller provinces as:

a. It ultimately allows more people into the game.

b. It is much more manageable for the governors.

I really don't think that DG2 Term 8 was the catastrophe that everyone is making it out to be, seeing the game was pretty much in hand. Besides, with our relaxed law structure this game we should be able to find a logical solution in the home stretch without too much red tape.

Get more citizens involved. I say 8-10 cities per province.

With 13-15 cities provinces are truely too large. 10 is a good target number, though a province can function well with as many as 12, or as few as 6. I am worries that if we have too few provinces we exclude people from governing positions in the game. Based on the models above, it will be weeks (months) before we have more than a handfull (2-4) govs! After all, being a Governor is the best job in the whole world, and we should have as many positions as we can realisticaly fill.

(I luv to Gov)

We should have 8-10 cities per province, as stated by DZ. We need more senators, in case we want to amend the constitution, and this will involve more people in the game. I see no reason why we shouldn't have more provinces.

As has been argued already more provinces means more governor positions which means more people involved in the game. This has to be a good thing.

I also back ten-ish cities per province. Most reasons are given above, but it also follows the land nicely. With mountains seperating the West and Central province and the desert / coast seperating the Central and Eastern province. It just seems so natural.

As someone who'd like to someday have a province of his own.... more small provinces sounds better than a few large ones.

Originally posted by Almightyjosh
With 13-15 cities provinces are truely too large. 10 is a good target number, though a province can function well with as many as 12, or as few as 6. I am worries that if we have too few provinces we exclude people from governing positions in the game. Based on the models above, it will be weeks (months) before we have more than a handfull (2-4) govs! After all, being a Governor is the best job in the whole world, and we should have as many positions as we can realisticaly fill.

(I luv to Gov)

Just for you, we should let you name the city by "Lake Asphinxia". :) But, I guess we could always redesign the borders of the provinces later.

what about not defining a max number for cities per province?
what about STRICTLY following natural borderlines? and let our planet define the borders for us.


our problem with that would be that we just did not explore enough to the east till now :-)

I'm trying to do that while keeping the number of cities in check.

I think natural borders would be a mistake this game. I also think 10 cities per province is too much. It should be more like 5-8 cities per province. We are not going to have to worry about the DG2 problems here. We don't have to keep flashing back to that game. This one will be totally different. That's one reason why natural land features as borders won't really work. Keep the provinces small and city defined.

For the current city placement plan, 5-8 per province would result in 5 provinces, and 8-10 per province would result in 3 provinces. I had a map showing 5 per, but PhotoShop hung trying to save it :(

To address expansion without having either excessive numbers of additional provinces, or very large ones, a simple solution would be redistricting right before a term ends. Since I wasn't here for previous DGs, can't say anything about whether this idea would work.

That's a good idea, d8575, and it's been attempted before. The problem is that once provinces are established they tend to form a sort of mini-nationalism and there is great resistance to changing their borders.

@CT - Please poll this for desired province sizes so we can move to the next step. Tiny (5-8), Small (7-10), Medium (9-12), Large (11-14), Huge (13-16).

I think that the best would be tiny provinces. I know that this would give us some bad things but it will also give good things:

1. Easier for the governors

2. More people can be governors (and it wont be to hard either)

3. It would be more "agile" to place new provinces as we can have smaller areas ( one single valley for example) as provinces...

Originally posted by Shaitan
That's a good idea, d8575, and it's been attempted before. The problem is that once provinces are established they tend to form a sort of mini-nationalism and there is great resistance to changing their borders.

Well, it's not so hard to change the borders in outlying provinces that have few citizens and little history, but if you try and mess with the core provinces every turn and sever people from thier home province you are likely to get some provincialists (I think thats a new word) very angry indeed. :)

Originally posted by Almightyjosh


Well, it's not so hard to change the borders in outlying provinces that have few citizens and little history, but if you try and mess with the core provinces every turn and sever people from thier home province you are likely to get some provincialists (I think thats a new word) very angry indeed. :)

Are those mini.. umm....

Anyway, I'll be sure you get the Lands of Egypt in the future. :) Whether or not it's more that 10 cities.

This, for discussion:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_BC0775_XP2++.jpg

Before I can judge it properly, please include our Western Empire as well. At first glance it looks ok, but To Dye For is small compared to New Egypt. In that view the green teritory shoud definetly not go to New Egypt. Not sure if I like it this way.

Had my computer not decided it wanted to spend 6 hours searching for non-existant bad sectors, I could have made one yesterday... Today, I have a family outing to go to... So, I'll try this evening.

OK, here's a re-vamped version of the plan above. It includes the West and 'Old Egypt is a bit smaller. Note that OE is mostly mountains, so it should be a little bigger. To dye for looks smaller, but will actually have as many, or more, cities as the other provinces!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_provall2.btm

Didn't work... try the ZIP!

The Map (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_provall2.zip)

I like that province proposal. I think the lack of discussion indicates the same. I think you should poll it ASAP.

Hmmm, I'll give it a little longer, I would really like to get a map that works, but I don't have photoshop!

Apologies for being a wet blanket but what is the argument against defining one province at a time? We only have one province worth of cities at the moment. Should we not wait until we have actually subdued these places first since we might want to found new cities and such like?

Long exeperience has taught us that it is most wise to have provinces pre-determined. We already have a pretty good idea of where our cities will be, and it is much easier to determine an overall structure for provincial borders in advance. Pre-determined borders allow a degree of certanty in govorning, as well as saving us the trouble of having to come up with blueprints for every new province. After all, the 'borders' of one province are also the borders of the next. We must prepare our bordes with an overall strategy in mind, or fact incoherant and inneffectual provincial borders.

I agree to your prop AJ. I like it. I voted for even smaller provonces but what the heck. I like its good. Poll it.

also looks good to mee, but i could imagine a old-greece borderline more "in the middle of the mountains" in its north, including the sole tile surrounded by the mountians.

but yes, in general this proposla looks good...

go forward for a poll with all discussed options, we need those borders soon enough...

but make sure to post it as jpg or png or something most people can view with their browser :-)
it would also be nice to put it on the upload-server and link an img-tag so a smaller overview version (thumbnail) and a url-link to a big version ;-) and preferrably not zipped.

It's a start. I like the general idea, but I see discussions coming up later on hte exact tile-by-tile bordersof provinces. In general I like it.

@Dis: Try ro say it with me:

W - I - N - Z - I - P

And Now fast: Winzip, Wiiiinziiip. Winzip.

Heard about that before :P

BTW: Also: WiiiinRaaaar :P

sj: its easier to click and see than to download and extract and then click and then see. also if you use other formats than bmp (aj, you should use png or jpg) the files will not be too much bigger...

The problem is that the file is about 7mb and won't upload without zipping! Alright, I'm gonna go and buy Photoshop now and see what I can do...

AJ: hmmm. so dont use BMP as format *rofl* and if you use the upload-feature and link to the file you can also put up more than 700k

Just save it as a jpg file.

So... where can I find a defined provincial map? is there one yet or is the discussion still going on? yes, I know I should look for it in the forums and threads and read and stuff...but I'm lazy and hopeless and weak! hahahahaha

EA

OK, here tis in smaller form...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_provall2sml.bmp

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_provall2sml2.jpg

My apologies for arriving late to this discussion, but I would really like to see the blue province end at the Eastern landbridge if at all possible.

I like it very well as is. The problem with having it end at the eastern landbridge is that New Egypt, which is already large, would be made larger. This way, all provinces stick with 7-9 cities or so.

I have read this thread carefully and paid attention to the arguments. However I really believe that we are planning too far ahead. There is nothing wrong with taking our time with this. That is why I believe that we should only define our provinces from the areas we have actual influence over. By taking this approach we retain the ability to be flexible. We should define the provinces as the land becomes available to us.

In the map below I have defined the eastern border of Capitoline in agreement with Josh's plan. By default this creates a western province. I also believe like DZ that Capitoline's western border should be the isthmus. This makes more sense geographically.

I have defined the southern border for the 'orange' province using the dessert and the narrowing of the land. We could even leave that border open ended if there was consensus to allow greater flexibility.

The eastern province is subject to our immediate attention. I believe that we should not turn Egypt into one province but allow for the possibility of creating more than one.

The key to this plan is its flexiblility. It allows for the creation of 3 new provinces without restricting future plans for colonization.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/provs2.jpg

In my proposal, while Capitoline does not end at the land bridge, the border does follow the 'lie of the land' in terms of mountain ranges, etc which is most desireable.

Furthermore, the polling conducted on this issue has revealed two things:

Firstly, provinces should have 7-10 cities. In my proposal above, all provinces have a minimum of eight, most have nine and some may have ten cities. In the second proposal, all provinces would have only seven (possible eight if crammed), with 'to dye for' only having five or six.

Secondly, previous suggestions with the boderer at the land-bridge have failed. In my opinion there is no real need to restrict capitoline to this land-bridge-border. If, in fact, you imagine Capitoline without the northern 'gulf', its shape makes even more sense extended!

Originally posted by Almightyjosh


Furthermore, the polling conducted on this issue has revealed two things:

Firstly, provinces should have 7-10 cities. In my proposal above, all provinces have a minimum of eight, most have nine and some may have ten cities. In the second proposal, all provinces would have only seven (possible eight if crammed), with 'to dye for' only having five or six.


Proposal 2 conforms to the poll result then by your own admission. Also I said that we should consider leaving 'orange' open ended in the south to allow for expansion. Since the only real difference between the 2 proposals is the number of provinces defined, I see no reason why it should be dismissed so lightly. We should try seek to common ground

Just a recommendation... I suggest that provincial on the coast be extended, not from the edge of the land, but all the way to the end of the coast (light blue vs. dark blue). That way, the edges won't be as jagged, and everything will look just a bit neater.

Originally posted by Peri


Proposal 2 conforms to the poll result then by your own admission.

True, but I was pointing out that provinces of 8-9 cities would be preferable to all provinces having 7 cities. While this would technically fall within the bracket, 7 is a minimum, to be treated as a minimum.

Originally posted by Peri

Since the only real difference between the 2 proposals is the number of provinces defined

The main difference between these proposals is the situation of the Capitoline/2D4/OldE border and the corresponding far border of 'Old E'. The second difference is that of the number of provinces defined (or rather the area they cover). If I may take each in turn.

i) Proposal 1 allows the Capitoline northern border to extend beyond the 'landbridge' and on to the plain on the other side. It then terminates at the foothills of the mountains. Correspondingly the near and far borders of 'Old Egypt' are moved eastward. This means that the majority of the area currently held by Cleo falls into 'Old Egypt'. This make Capitoline a stronger province, but also improves 'OE', as in the first proposal it will have some fertile lands in addition to large tracts of mountains.

ii) The reason I am attemping to define provinces in advance is this: we are at war with Egypt, and we are superior to them. It is very likely that, if we choose to do so, we could take most if not all of its cities. This we should have a provincial map drawn up to take in those conquered territories, so administration can be quickly implemented. I have devised a plan that accounts for all egyptian cities bar one (Heliopolis and the sothern regions are too little known to accurately map at this time.)

You all ask 'why mark out provinces in advance?'. I say to you, why not? When we think of where to draw our borders we must think ahead to the impact this will have on the next province, and the next. If you examine proposal one, you will see that it allows for logical and asthetic expantion under a good provincial structure!!!

I adapted AJ's proposal and editted his map. I have no fancy drawing tools or skills. The whitelines are deleted borders.

I like normal shapped provinces without strange lumps and bumps. What do you think of it ?

I actualy like AJ's Proposal more...

Actually, I am warming up to AJ's as well(I think the "gulf" interpretation swayed me). However, this province will ultimately house 12-13 cities, which is a bit beyond what we had voted for.

That said, I think we should poll a Yes/No on the Green province(the terrain border on this option makes the most sense - sorry, Rik :) ) and a choice between AJ's blue province and one that stops at the landbridge. After this is determined by vote, we can(quickly) assess the possibilities for Old Egypt, and put that to vote as well.

I like that idea DZ. Take it one step at a time.

I agree with the first step, but the determination of the eastern border of capitoline MUST be conducted concurrently with the determination of the rest of Old Egypt's borders and the Northern border of 2Dye4. The Old Greece, Old Aztecia and the sothern 2D4 border can be worked out in later steps.

Lets deal with Capitoline's borders first then move on to the others. Surely this is the most logical way forward because it breaks up the likely border contentions into bitesize debates which will be resolved quicker than discussing mass partition.

AJ, I have to agree with Peri on this one, although I have no problem with our current poll of the far west province. Doing so will ensure that proper discussion is given to each .

Let's define Capitoline next and then Old Egypt and so on. Defining Capitoline will determine how we lay out Old Egypt; Old Egypt will determine how we lay out To Dye For etc.

This is why I suggest that we poll the potential candidates for Capitoline as soon as its western border is passed by the citizenry. After Capitoline's borders are approved, we can then move on to Old Egypt.

Well, the Green(Far West) province has been decided. By a vote of 6-3-1, the public has chosen AJ's Option One.

Now that this has been done, I would like us to determine the Eastern border for Capitoline. I only want us to consider Capitoline at this time. To me, it looks like the three options are:

1. End at the Eastern landbridge(Donovan Zoi)

2. Extend just past the Eastern landbridge so that Capitoline includes the city of Inadatto(Almightyjosh).

3. Extend a bit further to pick up the cities of Lake Asphinxia and Aureus(Rik Meleet).

That said, I really believe we should pursue ending Capitoline at the landbridge. The "gulf" idea is a good sell, but not enough to allow us to develop a province that would certainly hold more than 12 cities. We have 6 cities(which includes our new city, Tyvek) within Capitoline's proposed borders west of the landbridge , and we have plenty of room to expand!

Let's have one last brief discussion on this matter and put it to vote.

My proposal for Capitoline was based on the shape of the western province. Since AJ's shape for this was chosen I don't like the Capotiline eastern border to be this far east.

Actually all my borders were consequences of the Western province borders. With this border decided this way even I don't like the other borders of my proposal.

Then I shall remove it from the list of possibilities, Rik. Thank you for your input as it will help us reach a quick conclusion in this matter.

The choices are now:

1. End at the Eastern landbridge(Donovan Zoi)

2. Extend just past the Eastern landbridge so that Capitoline includes the city of Inadatto(Almightyjosh).