This thread is a bonus Pregame discussion for experienced GOTM players and new players alike to discuss the specific choices that Conquest Class players will have to make in deciding how to use their extra starting bonuses.

Gotm20- Spain will be a deity level game in terms of productions and cost factor difficulties.

The decisions to discuss here will be somewhat independent of the starting map position in the Gotm20 game and will first need to address the issues of how the Conquest Class players will be able to use their added starting bonuses to put them in the best possible position to keep pace with the Open Class players on a path to enjoying the rest of the game.

Conquest Class Players will begin Gotm20-Spain with the following bonuses:

one extra settler (so a total of two starting settlers)
one extra worker (so a total of two starting workers)
the ability to build immobile 1/3/1 defenders (see below)
three (3) chests of gold that can be used to purchase 10 shields each (see below)
50 extra gold units in their starting treasury
future build access to the Galleass at Gunpowder (see below)

the rest of the game features will be identical to the Open Class GOTM game.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/images/fortress.gif The Immobile Defender: The Fortress Unit
Conquest Class players will have access to build 1/3/1 defender units at a cost of 10 shields in any of their towns or cities. These units will be immobile and cannot move or attack. The ability to build the units will become obsolete with the discovery of the technology of Bronze Working and the units may be upgraded onto the Spearman-Pikeman-Musketman unit chain to gain mobility at some future date. Technically you may build as many of these units as you desire but this may not be a wise strategic decision since they will have a maintenance cost, can serve only 1 or 2 limited purposes, and could take away resources from other priorities.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureLarge.gif Chests of Gold/Shields: The Treasure Chests
Conquest Class players will have three (3) chest of gold/shields available to them at the beginning of the game. These chests have the ADM statistics of 0/0/1 but cannot move through mountains or jungle. The intent here is to allow you to positions the chest of gold/shields with your settlers to gain an early production boost to support the strategy of your choice. When you use the "disband" command, each chest of gold will deliver you a yield of up to 10 shields that can speed up the production of units and/or improvements in your town(s).
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/images/galleass.jpg Galleass: Gunpowder Rowing Ships
These naval units are included as a bonus incentive unit in the middle ages to reward Conquest Class players who successfully reach the Gunpowder age. There may or may not be any strategic value to the Galleass naval units. Galleass ships require Saltpeter and cost 40 shields to build. They have ADM statistics of 2/2/2 and bombard strength of 2 with a range of 1 and rate-of-fire of 3. Their firepower gives them the ability to sinke weaker ships at close range and bombard multiple targets in a single tun. Galleass may be upgraded to standard Frigates by recycling their cannon. Again you are strongly cautioned that there may be no strategic value to these units depending on the specific circumstances in your game.

None of the Rival civilizations in the game will have access to the fortress defenders, treasure, or Galleass units.


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What would be some good strategic uses where Conquest Class players could apply these special bonuses to help stabilize their early game play so that they can focus on some of the same strategic issues and techniques that will be discussed in the Pregame discussion thread?

There are a number of options available and how are these options influenced by the Civ Specific Traits of the Spanish Civilization?

What are some of the risks and benefits of the various options?

At first glance this seems a good, balanced set of bonuses. The settler/worker/defender/gold/treasure chest combination should allow players to build a solid, well defended core. But I guess that was the intention :).

The extra settler and worker should speed up early expansion, city connection and development. Add in the Treasure Chests for speeding up granary/barracks/temple in one or more cities and bingo! Instant civilisation.

The Fortress looks to provide good defense against anything from the ancient era. Put a couple of these in every city and you shouldn't have to worry too much about early rushes against you. With them becoming obsolete on discovering Bronze Working means that care must be taken with research/tech trading until enough are produced to satisfy requirements.

Will the Fortress steer players away from early Swordsman warmongering I wonder? I guess some players will, some players won't.

The extra gold will come in handy for early trades and act as a (small) reserve against high tech research.

Finally, the Galleas. I guess that the impact will depend on what the competition is when it becomes available. If nothing else it should sort out the pesky Fog in short order :lol:

All in all another excellent job by Cracker and the team :goodjob:

I just hope I have enough time next month to try this out after my regular GotM is completed.

regards


Ted

:love:

GOTM 19 is my first GOTM and my first game at Emperor and I was not looking forward to this if it was at Deity but with the bonuses I'll have a go.

The extra settler and worker is nice, but finding a good second city site quickly may be difficult with so little of the map reveiled.

Extra money and shileds can always be used and the defener is nice, but I assume that it dosen't count towards MP.

The ship may be useful, it will depend on the type of map produced.

All in all it makes those of us who don't think they are up to Delty level have a rethink.

Thanks to cracker and the GOTM team for another set of stunning extras for GOTM:goodjob:

Originally posted by AndrewN
GOTM 19 is my first GOTM and my first game at Emperor and I was not looking forward to this if it was at Deity but with the bonuses I'll have a go.That's the spirit!
Originally posted by AndrewN
Extra money and shileds can always be used and the defener is nice, but I assume that it dosen't count towards MP.Actually, I'd be very surprised if the Fortress didn't count as MP.
Originally posted by AndrewN
All in all it makes those of us who don't think they are up to Delty level have a rethink.Let's hope that many more players see this as an opportunity to get involved in the GotM community.


regards

Ted

Originally posted by cracker
The Treasure Chests


I am wondering if we could produce this chest of gold during the "Open class" game. That would mimick quite well the fact that Spain was rich out of its conquest

Originally posted by cracker
The Immobile Defender: The Fortress Unit
Conquest Class players will have access to build 1/3/1 defender units

Shouldn't that be 1/3/0 units?

Fortress Units:

Are these going to have the "military police" capability as well? If they do (as a unit, I'm guessing they will) these are a very nice alternative to the "contentedness warrior" i.e. building a warrior just for the MP function. It's going to be a fine choice between building these and building temples, IMHO.

Re finding a second city site. The obvious choice is to consider moving both settlers, since many of the recent GOTMs have provided significant advantage to a settler move at first. With two workers to scout with, it should be possible to find a decent pair of spots. I'd be tempted to move both, settle both in 3950Ad (accepting the closeness) and treat them as a kind of double city, sharing improvements. But it's going to depend on the map of course.

Conquest Class, Predator Calls and Open Class...
I don't know how I can choose.

As I play on Emperor Level, this GOTM20 will be a little hard for me: Deity level. Maybe it is best if I choose the easyest one: Conquest Class.

As anyone decide in which class he will play ?

LeSphinx

Originally posted by LeSphinx
As anyone decide in which class he will play ?


Not yet, although I never played the deity, I will go for the "Open Class" ie normal GOTM

Bonne Chance mon ami

Originally posted by LeSphinx
As anyone decide in which class he will play ?
I just won on emperor level for the first time last month, and will play in the Open Class now. Just want to see how it goes.
By which I don't mean to break down the other classes - on the contrary.
BTW, shouldn't the Open Class also have a distinctive icon ? Something 'middle-of-the-road'ish, ... or, if no evident icon can be found, I propose the Egyptian 'Anch' sign. Can't refer to Tibet ALL the time... ;)

I’ll try to give you some decent answers until cracker wakes up. I’m guessing but it’s an educated guess in the spirit of what cracker is up to.

-The fortress will most probably have MP ability.
-The treasure chest would probably cost 40 shields. I don’t think one would build them voluntarily.
-You can not have units with 0 movement points. The fortress will have 1/3/1 but it will not have movement capability on any surface (plains, grassland etc). That’s also the reason for which they would not be able to attack.

Le Sphinx, if you are in the upper half of the charts you are encouraged to go for the open class but you can choose any one.

I look forward for this enhancement since I haven`t played the game now except for GOTM. I`m afraid of deity level actually :( . Eventhough I`ve won several deity games but they`re long time ago.

Last deity gotm game was a terrible for me. I lost in th BC!:cry: . Stupid greedy Persian!:mad:. This time, I hope, I`ll be able to lead the spanish to victory.

Thank you Cracker

Originally posted by cracker
Conquest Class Players will begin Gotm20-Spain with the following bonuses


I've only played one GOTM. What is the difference between a "Conquest Class Player" and a "regular" GOTM player?

Edit: I found the answer in the other thread...

Originally posted by Yndy
-The fortress will most probably have MP ability.


If correct then this would be nice. I can imagine building at least one in each city and waiting for Bronze Working a while, but I think it might be a bit too powerful.


Originally posted by LeSphinx
As anyone decide in which class he will play ?

Still I am definately going to play Conquest at least this once:)

I've never won anything higher than Regent, but I'll give it a go to see how long I'll last! The last GOTM(19), I lost in 1866, but was way behind most of the way.

Does anyone have a link to articles/threads to help me with the choices as to what improvements to build depending on what game style/goal you have in mind?

I end up trying to build everything in my productive cities, but I see it implied in many threads that most players don't really build much, except maybe units?

Thanx in advance for any suggestions you have!

Originally posted by cracker
Fortress Unit
Conquest Class players will have access to build 1/3/1 defender units at a cost of 10 shields in any of their towns or cities. These units will be immobile and cannot move or attack. The ability to build the units will become obsolete with the discovery of the technology of Bronze Working and the units may be upgraded onto the Spearman-Pikeman-Musketman unit chain to gain mobility at some future date. Technically you may build as many of these units as you desire but this may not be a wise strategic decision since they will have a maintenance cost, can serve only 1 or 2 limited purposes, and could take away resources from other priorities.

This seems just too easy.[dance] Just find a good starting spot for one of the two settlers and turn it into a settler factory ASAP while rushing the barracks right away in the starting city and have it pumpping out as many defender as possible. By building cities close to each other and stay in Despotism, unit support won't be a problem. Once we have about 50 defenders, buy Bronze Working from the AIs and we would instantly get 50 spearmans right there.:) In hindsight, I think I will use my defenders to intimidate the AIs into giving me all of their size-1 towns. Since the AIs are so stupid, they would never figure out that our defenders can't move. I'm sure Creepster and I would have a lot of fun with the AIs in this game; let's see who demand the most cities from the AIs.;) I have a feeling that Creepster would beat me on this one.

Originally posted by Moonsinger

This seems just too easy.[dance] Just find a good starting spot for one of the two settlers and turn it into a settler factory ASAP while rushing the barracks right away in the starting city and have it pumpping out as many defender as possible. By building cities close to each other and stay in Despotism, unit support won't be a problem. Once we have about 50 defenders, buy Bronze Working from the AIs and we would instantly get 50 spearmans right there.:) In hindsight, I think I will use my defenders to intimidate the AIs into giving me all of their size-1 towns. Since the AIs are so stupid, they would never figure out that our defenders can't move. I'm sure Creepster and I would have a lot of fun with the AIs in this game; let's see who demand the most cities from the AIs.;) I have a feeling that Creepster would beat me on this one.

Good morning Moonsinger,
First, what do you do with 50 defenders in one city? Then what do you do with 50 spearmen? Are you going to defend till they die of thirst?
Are you seriously considering playing the “conquest” class GOTM? The one for the inexperienced players who need a hand to get a shot at a deity GOTM?
I’ll be hearing from you soon, no doubt.
Excuse the sarcasm, it’s only to wake you up :D

Originally posted by Moonsinger
In hindsight, I think I will use my defenders to intimidate the AIs into giving me all of their size-1 towns. Since the AIs are so stupid, they would never figure out that our defenders can't move. I'm sure Creepster and I would have a lot of fun with the AIs in this game; let's see who demand the most cities from the AIs.;) I have a feeling that Creepster would beat me on this one. Did you read cracker's announcement?
Players who have played previous GOTM games and finished in the upper 50% of the rankings should continue to play the Open Class games and will not have the option of recording scores for the Conquest Class versions of the game.

Yndy & tao,

You are both right. It was just too early and I obviously missed Cracker's announcement.:( Does this mean I can't play?:cry:;) Anyway, the defenders are there to intimidate the enemy. Since the AIs are like the bean counter, my guess is that they count the total strength of the units and they would never know if the units can move or not. Just declare war ASAP with the all the far away civs, it would take them zillion years to reach our homeland anyway. By then we would have plenty of time to sue for peace. Since the strength of our defenders give us the extra boost in power, we can just simply demand city from the AIs. Basically, we conquer their cities without having to fight any battles.;) Note: This technique will work only during the early stage of the game. For more information on it, check out Creepster's QSC for GOTM19.

Well, with 3 GOTMs in the bag - (all loses) even though I was number #1 in the score (at least until I was voted out or they built their spaceship), I enjoy playing playing any level with or without bonuses. However, since this option is now available, I will play this Conquest level and take these bonuses. The longer I can survive, the more fun I have -go figure:p

I'm not really sure quite how to use these bonuses yet, but I will continue to follow this post and see what suggestions are out there.

I should be posting my first game o' the month here shortly. as with the first reply the diety level is a bit concerning (esp. considering our civ is spain). i'll try this conquest level out. should allow the game to be a bit more bearable! also just wanted to mention that this tiering concept should be a good thing.

Yes, the fortress would have MP duty. Any unit with an attack or defend value works as military police. Look at the king units in PTW, they have 0 attack, 2 defend and they can work as military police.

Treasure chests: You get 3 at the start, but Cracker didn't say you could build anymore. You probably can't build more. If you can, it probably wouldn't be advisable until much later in the game when you have a very productive core and you have distant high-corrupt cities that need a little boost in building a temple/harbor or something.

First off let me say that I think that the announcements made recently are great. It amazes me that the staff are willing to put so much effort into this on our behalf and I just want to say thanks!

I like all the proposals set out in this thread except for the immobile defenders. It's just too much like a mod for me. Sorry.
I think that the ability to buy shields in despotism is fine and would increase this a bit at the expense of the immobile defender.

While I expect to play the Open Level Games normally, this being a Deity level, I will probably play conquest on for GOTM 20 (I've never won a Diety game). The only ones I've played were the past GOTM's and my goal was to just be alive when someone else either launched or got voted leader. (success as Babs / lost as Iroquois)

I'll still probably be a little too timid, even with the bonus goodies to get a win, but I'll probably survive a lot longer, with more cities and tech than past games. It was always a little intimidating to hope that your pikemen would have a chance against tanks & artillery. At least this time, I might get to the Industrial Age before some else launches.



:wallbash:

I definitely will try the Conquest - it sounds like fun, and I'm not really ready for Diety.

The fortress sounds fantastic, but why obsolete so soon? Seems like it should be around until Feudalism, and first upgrade to musket. Some civs start w/Bronze!

So the obvious thing to do is settle your 2 towns, use chest for fortresses, build a few warriors, then start a settler/defender factory combination.

Sorry, I had to look that up - you Galleass!

A large, fast, heavily armed three-masted Mediterranean galley of the 16th and 17th centuries. It was propelled by both sails and oars, and had thirty-two seats for rowers, who were generally slaves, six or seven at an oar.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/alamo_galleass2.gif

Some thoughts about possible ways to use the extra units:

1) On the first turn, explore the opening area with the Treasure Chests before moving the workers/settlers.

2) Use Treasure Chests to rush Immobile Defenders. If you use them this way I'd suggest not using them right away - save them for a little while until you know which towns will be your early borders.
And then before using them this way, reconsider: do you plan to start by producing a warrior in that same town? If so then it might be better to use the Treasure Chest to rush a warrior and have the town build an Immobile Defender. Total production cost is the same but the warrior can get out there exploring sooner.

3) It might be tempting to send the Treasure Chests exploring. (Shades of Discworld :lol: ) They shouldn't pop huts and must run from barbarians but those things are largely true of warriors at Deity level. Nonetheless I wouldn't recommend this because of the final drawback - the Treasure Chest's little legs can't cope with mountains or jungles. If you want to explore with them, at the cost of one additional turn you can convert each one into a warrior who will be a better explorer.

4) Don't delay too long in building the Immobile Defenders where you want them for defense - it won't be long in the game before you want Bronze Working.

5) The Treasure Chests might also be saved for a small production boost when it seems important later on, e.g. to get a Granary finished just before a town grows instead of just after.

Originally posted by SirPleb
1) On the first turn, explore the opening area with the Treasure Chests before moving the workers/settlers.
:rotfl:

Another example of why you're such a good player. A twisted mind at work. :)

Shame the Chests don't share "The Luggage's" agressive traits.

regards

Ted

First of all, I should qualify this with saying that I have never played deity before.

I think these immobile defenders will encourage me to hold off on bronze working for quite some time. 1/3/1? That’s better than spearmen. So when you discover (or trade for, this is deity) bronze working, your defensive option will cost more and be less powerful. Strange. That definitely changes tech research/trading strategy. I suppose the barb level will be a factor, because barbs are apparently pretty tough on deity. What is their combat advantage? 100%?

Well anyways, I applaud cracker and his team because GOTM 19 is my first GOTM and my first emperor game and I’m pretty sure I’ll win. Thanks for the incentive to try a jump of two levels! I must say I wasn’t planning on playing a deity level GOTM, but with the new Conquest class, I will be there with bells on!

Inudog

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureLarge.gif I've never played Deity before, and am currently doing a shadow run through GOTM #19 as a learning process, my first Emperor game.

I had considered trying GOTM #20 for real, for laughs, but Cracker has now confirmed that Conquest class is available, and for vanilla http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/mac.jpgCiv3 1.29f/Mac yet, so I'm up for this as a first GOTM/QSC submission. That's assuming I even get as far as 1000 BC, of course!

So thanks a million gpt, Cracker, for providing a soft-start option to get noobs like me into the game. I just hope you don't drown under the extra submission load of all those new players like me that you tempt into the GOTM for the first time.

Some thoughts on the specials that Cracker has served up to ease our way into the mad, bad world of a Deity GOTM:

Like MadScot I'd expect to move the two settlers apart, depending on the starting terrain, and maybe settle one in 3950 and the other a turn later to get a three tile separation between the two first cities. Moving the two workers first ought to provide a little additional initial terrain info to help with choosing the Settlers' first movement directions.

The Fortress unit sounds very useful at the start, given the barb strength at Deity. Hoplite/Pike defence for the price of a Warrior can't be bad! That's a 20 shield saving per defender, and having tried to take Hoplite-defended Greek cities with Legionaries I know they will do a good job at least until Knights are around. A lot of my defenders never move anyway except to get upgraded, so their upgrade cost can probably be deferred until Nationalism.

The bad news is they'll probably all be Regulars unless they get promoted, and you can't keep producing them once Bronze arrives, so it seems we need to get our key cities founded and equipped with multiple Fortresses before buying/stealing Bronze. But that delays Iron and therefore Swords, so we could be relying on Warriors longer than we would otherwise.

As usual there will have to be some middle way. So maybe we get ten towns up and defended by two Fortresses before Bronze? (I'm an optimist!) Twenty static Pikemen for 10 shields each = 200 shields saved on Spears, and a lot of gold we don't need to spend on Spear->Pike upgrades.

Of course Fortresses will eventually cost to upgrade to Muskets/Rifles so we've only deferred the upgrade expense, but we'll have Leonardo's by then, won't we?

Also, they'll only upgrade if we have a Barracks in the same city, so Sun Tzu would be even more useful than normal. Alternatively we could just build new Rifles. It's probably not worth disbanding Fortresses by that time for the pitance we'd get back (one shield each?). They still add one more line of defence at very little cost.

I suspect that the Treasure Chests should be used as soon as possible since they aren't very likely to get any more valuable with time. Yes, a specific opportunity for use might present itself, such as SirPleb's suggestion about accelerating a Granary to beat the next pop growth point. But building a unit earlier always increases the chances of earlier contact or earlier barb defeat or building a more valuable world map. So a couple of Fortresses and a Warrior as soon as the two first towns are founded, maybe? After that, one town gets a Granary and then builds Settlers and the other starts on Warriors as scouts and escorts.

We Spaniards are Commercial/Religious, if I recall correctly, so we get Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet as starter techs? Cheap temples and good bargaining techs, plus reduced corruption and extra commerce when (if?) we get bigger. The extra starting gold will also help with tech trading as long as the Fortresses prevent it being pillaged by the first swarm of barbs.

The Galleass's (Galliassae?) I saw during GOTM 19 were vicious machines if you let them get near you, but the AI didn't make very effective use of them. If you can get them next to a target their rate of fire allows them to bombard and then attack an enemy ship in one turn, or they can attack two targets. Careful positioning and trap-setting seems to be required as they don't move very fast. They can also make a mess of on-shore improvements, and the AI doesn't seem to be good at using mobile cannon/artillary to defend against bombardment from coastal tiles. Rome used them as Galleon escorts in my GOTM19, which was a painfully slow way to move their troops around the map. If I get that far in the game, and the map is appropriate, it will be interesting to find out how to use them effectively.

AlanH

I think on Deity, you will be hard pressed to get either Leonardo's or Sun Tzu's before the AI...much less both. Just keep that in mind.

Originally posted by inudog
....I suppose the barb level will be a factor, because barbs are apparently pretty tough on deity. What is their combat advantage? 100%?
There is no combat advantage either way on Deity (all lower levels have some kind of advantage against the barbarians). However, Deity barbs are indeed very tough because without combat bonuses barbs have a decent chance of surviving to cause economic damage.

Since this class will start with two workers, it may be a good idea to assign one worker to each of the starting settlers. That way, the first two cities can both work improved tiles right from the start. If you settle both cities close to each other, they can share the improvements made by both workers without many wasted worker turns. The treasure chests should probably be used early when 10 shields is a significant boost in production.

Overall, the conquest class bonuses seem to balance out the (similar) starting unit bonuses of the Deity AI civs. The difficulty should be significantly greater than Emperor due to the 40% AI cost discount, but much less daunting than normal Deity. The unit bonuses (especially the fortress) will at least limit painful conquest defeats in the Ancient Era, but if you lose focus on the economy or on offensive units the other civs can still jump ahead.

@SirPleb: Thanks for your lateral thoughts on the options here.

Re. Delayed Fortresses

I don't think I'd want to delay putting Fortresses in my first cities, given what I've heard about Deity barbs. As the civ grows and we get HBR or even Warrior Code it can start to build counter-offensive units to defend the borders and avoid Stalingrads in the frontier towns, but while it's small you need in-town defences. Also, as you say, this cheap unit won't be available for long because we'll need to move up to swords. Once we have Bronze we'll be able to push new spears out to the border towns where mobility can be useful to confront oncoming hoards before they hit town.

Re. Exploring Treasure Chests. Nice idea, but the best view is from the mountain tops where 'chests can't breathe'. Also, I bet a wandering barb would just love to walk off with our treasure. I think you're right when you suggest turning them into Warriors (or Fortresses so that we can build Warriors) who can move more freely.

Originally posted by rabies
AlanH

I think on Deity, you will be hard pressed to get either Leonardo's or Sun Tzu's before the AI...much less both. Just keep that in mind.

Sorry, tongue slightly in cheek there! I think some of them will get pensioned off, others will upgrade where possible.

On a replay of GOTM 19 (because I screwed up the ancient era with a couple of stoopid errors, and I wanted to see what I could achieve with a better start) I did manage to get both, but I get the impression that GOTM 19 was an easier-than-normal Emperor, and of course Deity is something else again.

Building one or two Immobile Defenders in each city - which presumably also addresses garrisoning - will make it much less likely that players will cripple themselves building large numbers of defensive units. As such, it promotes aggressive exploration, and then expansion with settlers and offensive units. It also creates an interesting risk/benefit choice as to when to research or trade for bronze working, since the advantage of putting it off also stalls the acquisition of iron working.

The Gold Chests' most immediate and obvious use is to generate one-move builds of the first three Immobile Defenders. The capital and second city could safely build two or three warriors for quick exploration, then rush an ID for garrisoning or barb-defense purposes. These cities could also produce one explorer, rush the ID, and then start a granary. (A pre-settler granary in the capital isn't necessarily a good idea on deity, but might be with the extra-settler benefit.) The third chest
could be saved for a just-in-time production boost to a granary, resulting in an optimally timed settler build, or ot could accompany the first built settler to its settlement tile.

The Galleass is an exciting wild-card, as it would dominate the seas from Gunpowder until Magnetism. In the best-case scenario - a map where they're useful, and a player whose research is reasonably current - such a navy could theoretically harrass not only enemy shipping, but actually win favorable peace terms by continued bombardment of coastal towns and improvements. A couple of galleasses parked next to an enemy city could easily shell it , turn in and turn out, with little chance of redlining. (It could even lead to a two-step Viking variation, if the city's units are suffficciently damaged.) Of course, this would require a concerted longterm strategic decision to devote precious resources to the navy, and constitute a production risk. Map limitations aside, this strategy will be less exciting to players who reach gunpowder right as the AI researches magnetism. But even then, the AI doesn't build a lot of frigates, and the marauding galleasses could still raise a meaningful amount of hell. None of the above takes potential late-medieval exploration into account. But if the map does have a second-stage, "imperialism" component, galleasses could be a great tool for the trailing human player to hamstring the AI's settlement efforts, with a concerted effort to sink their New World-bound ships.

The aggressive use of the Galleass could dovetail perfectly with the UU, in that one forestalls AI expansion, while the other identifies where expansion should occur. The gold chests could help with an early cultural assault, as a temple could be built in 3950BC, giving the Spanish a huge cultural edge, thanks to their religious trait. I don't see any other advantage that the bonuses provide in conjunction with the religious trait, or any connection between any of the bonuses and the commercial trait (as the commercial trait doesn't kick in until cities grow to a point where the extra worker and extra treasury recede in importance).

The new units look like they're borderline on being too much advantage, but to play my first deity after getting off to a 0-3 start in GOTM I'll take any boost that is available. :cool:

The fortress (immobile defender) units look like a clear message that extra defense is needed for this game. They also help reinforce targeted research, and tech trading by making bronze working a bad idea. Holding off to acquire bronze and iron should make them cheaper if more civs have them at the time we want. This unit will also hilight the strategic progression of military units from exploration (warrior) to defense (ID) to offence (sword). Go for powerful offence prior to getting a good defence at your peril...

Edit: Having to wait for IW will also help develop our ability to predict where iron will appear, ensuring that we develop so that hills and mountains are inside the radius.

It's interesting that the treasure chests create 10 shields, the same amount as chopping forest. You have to be careful to time it properly so that more than 10 shields are remaining on current production, or up to 9 of the shields would be wasted.

There is something unclear about the galeass unit -- what kinds of water squares can it traverse (coast vs sea vs ocean)? Is it affected by the Great Lighthouse in the same way as standard naval units? Is it strictly military like a frigate, or can it carry passengers?

For those who haven't played deity before, note that the AI starts with 12 military units at the start! So you better build some of those 3 defense immobile defenders while they are so cheap. (and pay tribute unless you are prepared to deal with the AI's fury).

If I was playing this level with the free units, I might consider using the treasure chests to build a very early temple in the second city. Your capital will get culture expansion from the palace, but the second city will need a culture expansion, and if you use the 3 treasure chests to rush a temple (30 shields for religious), you can get a nice little culture lead (that will last a little while, at least).

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
For those who haven't played deity before, note that the AI starts with 12 military units at the start! Are you sure? In the Info Center (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#levels) it says "On Deity level, the AI usually gets 4 or 5 free units, such as 2 archers, 1 spearman, and 1 worker."

Well, that is out of date...or nobody bothered to check the editor.

Monarch: 2 defensive units, 1 offensive unit
Emperor: 4 defensive units, 2 offensive units, 1 worker
Deity: 8 defensive units, 4 offensive units, 2 workers, AND 1 settler!

What units they are given depends on the techs they start with. They get all warriors if they don't start with Bronze working (spearman) or warrior code (archers).

Free Unit Support:
Monarch 4, +1 for each additional city
Emperor 8, +2 for each additional city
Deity 16, +4 for each additional city

Maximum anarchy length (If non-religious):
Monarch 4
Emperor 3
Deity 2

Cost Factor (what it costs to build stuff and grow) and AI to AI trade rate (discounts they give each other)

Monarch 9/140
Emperor 8/150
Deity 6/160

What 6 for deity means, is that it only costs them 6 shields to build a 10 shield unit, and 12 food to grow instead of 20. Trade ratio means they give each other bigger discounts on higher levels when they trade with each other.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
If I was playing this level with the free units, I might consider using the treasure chests to build a very early temple in the second city. Your capital will get culture expansion from the palace, but the second city will need a culture expansion, and if you use the 3 treasure chests to rush a temple (30 shields for religious), you can get a nice little culture lead (that will last a little while, at least).

I’d build half a granary in the city best suited for a settler factory and send one or maybe both workers to improve it. Granary is 60 shields right? So you will need 30 extra shields, that should be 10 turns. With a forest, proper calculation and both workers on the job one should get the granary before the city grows to population 2 in turn 11 of the game. Now that’s a great advantage that should help the initial expansion. The other town would be used to build some warriors to defend, and explore.

There's only one trick here: you need pottery! Can't remember but you should be able to get it in 15-20 turns so you could delay everything by 5-10 turns (two or three warriors)

Very useful post.

Thanks


Ted

I think an instant fortress maybe the best bet. Getting early pike equivalent defenders at no cost will allow early warriors to go out exploring rather than sticking around for MP duty. This will allow the lux slider to be sit still for at least a few turns. Although my experience at deity is limited, happiness is always an issue, as is commerce. Wasting commerce on lux early may make a difference when it comes time to buy a few techs early on.

The other thing that is important to remember is the extra worker and settler. The worker alone is worth a lot (try buying 1 in PTW ;) )and I can't even put a value on the extra settler, people would kill for a settler from a hut, getting one at the start is big advantage.

Good luck to all that play the conquest game! Should be an interesting comparison.

Hotrod

Questions about the Galeass

Can it end its turn on a sea tile? On a ocean tile? Can it carry units?

Apparently it shows up in this month's GOTM, though I haven't seen it yet - a spoiler - doh!

So you can look at the unit if you have installed the GOTM package and are willing to use the editor.

I haven't actually tried the editor myself, so I can't say much more.

This might be a possible game for a OCC. You've got powerful cheap defensive units, a head start towards the Great Library (Alphabet) and can build a temple cheaply. If the starting location includes a nearby river and a luxury or two (maybe even some coastline), the odds get better. And the growth of disbanding the second settler (it is OCC after all), would get a early pop boost.

If you managed to land another AA wonder and were able to trade an extra resource (or 2) for peace, a 20K win might be possible.

I think that the fortress guys are a little too tough for 10. Make em cost 20 or have only defense of 2 and theyed be much better, although I think going to defense of 2 is best. Since the will not be able to move - but can fortify (I believe that is the case) they will have an effective defense of 2.7 (on grassland) in a world of 1 attack streagth barbs... it goes to just over 4 with a defense of 3.

I also don't like how a smart player will aquire bronze working at a later date just so new cities can cheep forts that need not be upgraded unitil gunpowder. I think it alters signifigantly HOW some-one SHOULD play the game in the early years, which is counter productive to using conquest as a training ground for going to the next level. (That isn't to say that I don't find this unit very interesting...). To somewhat counter this, perhaps it should upgrade to pikemen not spearmen?

Meisier, you are missing the point. These are bonuses in this diety game to help where it might be needed most. If a person wants to play a defensive game it would be smart to avoid bronze for a little while, at least until their core cities are settled and have built a few fortresses.

And since this is a game to help people along and give them a slight advantage to ease them into playing a *diety* game, it would be wise if those people did play a defensive game. I see nothing wrong with avoiding Bronze for most of the age. In this case you have a better defender without Bronze, so there is no need for it. And unless you plan to go offensive with swords, Iron isn't needed either.

There is only one problem with this strategy, knowing where the iron is early enough to be sure to get some, and also to deny the enemy.

Originally posted by denyd
This might be a possible game for a OCC.
Yes, I was thinking along similar lines after doing some research around the forums. Having tried a couple of practice starts in Deity as Indians (same traits as Spain) I found you don't get much time to expand anyway. The other civs just seem to gobble up the map. So makng a virtue out of necessity, I think I'll run a trial OCC game and see how it goes.

Some of the OCC strategies (heavy trading, paying demands) are useful on deity. But you need an excellent start, a small map, and lots of skill to actually beat deity with an OCC.

Conquest Class Players will begin Gotm20-Spain with the following bonuses:


one extra settler (so a total of two starting settlers)

one extra worker (so a total of two starting workers)

the ability to build immobile 1/3/1 defenders (see below)

three (3) chests of gold that can be used to purchase 10 shields each (see below)

50 extra gold units in their starting treasury

future build access to the Galleass at Gunpowder (see below)


I don't undestand how the calculation system will be, as some players (Conquest class players) will start with a huge advantage
where as open class player will not have any bonus.

Can we decide by ourself in which class we play.
In a deity level, why not playing in the CONQUEST class.
In a CONQUEST class, de we have the choice about the victory ?

I'm loocking forward to this new GOTM with new stuff!

LeSphinx

Originally posted by LeSphinx
I don't undestand how the calculation system will be, as some players (Conquest class players) will start with a huge advantage
where as open class player will not have any bonus.
There is no scoring bonus for players the PREDATOR class game; just a little bragging rights. There will be a scoring offset for playing the CONQUEST games and at this point in time we believe it will be a multiplier of 85%. The intent will be to encourage players to playe the Open Class game when they are ready.


Originally posted by LeSphinx
Can we decide by ourself in which class we play.
In a deity level, why not playing in the CONQUEST class.

Yes, you decide what intensity level is right for you, subject to the two restrictions: once you make it into the upper 50% of the rankings in any GOTM game then you cannot drop back to the conquest class game and receive a score. Also, the CONQUEST games will be carefully reviewed to detect players who really should not be playing at the reduced difficulty and CONQUEST games will not be eligible for the fastest and highest scoring victory medals that will be reserved for the Open and Predator Class games.

Originally posted by LeSphinx
In a CONQUEST class, de we have the choice about the victory ?

Yes, for this Gotm20 game CONQUEST players have free choice of what victory condition they choose to pursue. In future games, we may designate a preferred victory condition but even under those conditions you will still have the choice of pursuing alternate victory conditions.

Ok, thanks for the precise details cracker.
As I finish 68/160 in GOTM18, I haven't got the choice: I have to play on Open Class at a deity level! Snif! Snif!
This would be my first Deity game as I haven't play GOTM14 Babylons in December as this month have a lot of holidays in France!

Deity, Deity , Deity, ....

LeSphinx

Originally posted by cracker

Yes, you decide what intensity level is right for you, subject to the two restrictions: once you make it into the upper 50% of the rankings in any GOTM game then you cannot drop back to the conquest class game and receive a score. Also, the CONQUEST games will be carefully reviewed to detect players who really should not be playing at the reduced difficulty and CONQUEST games will not be eligible for the fastest and highest scoring victory medals that will be reserved for the Open and Predator Class games.



What dou you mean by 50% or rankings... top 50 or 50% from all players? :confused:

I would only play conquest class game for deity game... Lower than that... It will be open or maybe predator.... It`s that ok....? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks

FeelGood, I think what cracker means is that if you have ever scored in the top half of any GOTM, then you should not be playing the "Conquest" game.

I think it should be the top 50% and have submitted a winning game on the difficulty level as a cutoff. A lot of players do pretty well on lower difficulty levels (making the top 50%), but just don't have the experience of playing Deity to have much shot at winning. In GOTM14, only 12 out of 69 won their games, so those 12 (along with anyone who won GOTM07) would be the only ones restricted from playing the Conquest version.

I guess that is to have players avoid sandbagging games just to play the "conquest" game but allowing the Warlord/Regent player be more competitive on the upper levels.

Edit: I haven't played a GOTM at the deity level except for the QSC14 but I think the intent of the top 50% to be disqualified because even if they don't win the game they will be competetive even at deity. The upper 50% have proven they can will at Monarch and/or Emperor and eventhough a win at Deity may not for certain their game will be competetive even if they are unaided or even a loss.

The lower 50%, who may or may not have won the Regent or Monarch game, will be able to compete albeit aided at the Deity level.

Feelgood,

Let us use you as an example because your player data is fairly illustrative of the point

In Gotm18-Celts you finished at #66 out of 160 positions so this puts you in the top 50% (position 80 or above). You were right exactly in betweeb BillChin and LKendter and in the same scoring group as numebr of other moderate to strong players.

In Gotm17-Carthage you were at #80 out of 162 and in Gotm16-Rome you wer at #70 out of 144 which in both cases was just barely into the top 50% but still commendable ine every case.


In Gotm15-Russia wor were at #51 out of 155 submissions which again was well above the 50% cutoff point.

We are not even close to compiling the Gotm19-Ottomans results yet, but you have already submitted a victory and you again will probably be in the top 50% of the results (I can't sya that for sure yet though).

I think you are not the player that the Conquest class game is targeted for. You have the skills to play well and be "in-the-game" on any difficulty level that you have tried so far and for you the real challenge is to extract those thingst hat you have been doing well and then focus on the key things that will let you play well in a game at deity level.

Look at this game as the opportunity that it really is and that is to measure where you are against the skill levels that will let you survive and/or have fun when the game is really dialed up to one of its most challenging settings.

Good luck in your Open or Predator Class game for Gotm20-Spain.

Originally posted by Meisier
I think that the fortress guys are a little too tough for 10. Make em cost 20 or have only defense of 2 and theyed be much better, although I think going to defense of 2 is best. Since the will not be able to move - but can fortify (I believe that is the case) they will have an effective defense of 2.7 (on grassland) in a world of 1 attack streagth barbs... it goes to just over 4 with a defense of 3.

I also don't like how a smart player will aquire bronze working at a later date just so new cities can cheep forts that need not be upgraded unitil gunpowder. I think it alters signifigantly HOW some-one SHOULD play the game in the early years, which is counter productive to using conquest as a training ground for going to the next level. (That isn't to say that I don't find this unit very interesting...). To somewhat counter this, perhaps it should upgrade to pikemen not spearmen?


Originally posted by Smirk
Meisier, you are missing the point. These are bonuses in this diety game to help where it might be needed most. If a person wants to play a defensive game it would be smart to avoid bronze for a little while, at least until their core cities are settled and have built a few fortresses.


Below is the best two quotes i can get from the other thread about what the purpose of this class of GOTM. Please ask yourself if the difference in game play during ancient times that will be affected by this unit does not make comparison to other games somewhat pointless. I just don't think that with the way this unit is designed is in keeping with that purpose - aside from it being to powerful. My suggestion to make it upgradable to pikeman is quite differnnt from my complaint about it being to powerful, and was ment whooly to address this problem.

Originally posted by cracker
we will use other techniques to encourage players to rise to new challenges and conquer fundamental game play issues by comparing their games directly to the games of the experienced players.

The primary difference between the Open Class games and Conquest Class games, will be that the Conquest Class players will receive a map appropriate set of opening bonuses that will be designed to help them cross over an early strategic decision/performance threshold. These bonuses will allow Conquest Class players to more actively experience the challenges of the game while learning to compare their decisions to the decisions, techniques, and strategies of some of the more experienced players under similar game conditions.

- with it upgradable to Pikemen than how the game is played to play it optimaly would be much closer to the open games, and thus much more comparible.

Meiser,

I want to quash the side vector discussion that you are headed off on and encourage you to find the value in the bonuses as designed. Debating what the settings should be is not the purpose here and particularly not in advance of any participation where your can test your abilities against the concepts.

The upgrade path is for the defender unit is designed to make them obsolete in the game quickly. Building lots of early defenders early in the game may or not be a wise planning decision depending on your other strategic moves.

The purpose of this thread is not debate changes that you feel would be more appropriate to the bonus settings for the game. These settings are the settings for the game and now the decision becomes do you want to play this optional game level or the open class game and once you decide on the intensity level of play, "How can you use the bonuses that are defined to get you into the game and keep you into the game??"

Originally posted by denyd
This might be a possible game for a OCC. You've got powerful cheap defensive units, a head start towards the Great Library (Alphabet) and can build a temple cheaply. If the starting location includes a nearby river and a luxury or two (maybe even some coastline), the odds get better. And the growth of disbanding the second settler (it is OCC after all), would get a early pop boost.

If you managed to land another AA wonder and were able to trade an extra resource (or 2) for peace, a 20K win might be possible.

I don't think a 20k OCC is possible on deity. By the time you could get a 20k OCC victory (around 1750 AD if you play extremely well with an excellent starting position) one of the AI's will already have launched their space ship. The only possible OCC win I think would be a diplomatic victory.

Ronald

Originally posted by Ronald

I don't think a 20k OCC is possible on deity.


I may eventually attempt it, but one thing for sure is that it will take a lot of warmongering. The biggest problem would be to get some wonders. Getting leaders will help, but you'll also have to be razing cities left and right to prevent the other civs building them. I think with a militaristic civ on a small or medium pangea map it might be possible. However, I would certainly try 5CC first.

I've played GOTM since #14 but never submitted any scores...not until now. A win on emperor but a fairly low score tho. Hours of couselling at AR (Anonymous Reloaders) helped me to see the light.:)

I won't even think of the Predator class, but then I don't like too many "extras" either. I have played well on a few emperor games by myself, but usually get beaten badly on deity. I have to learn not to be too humble in the beginning of games as I see quite a few players win on aggressive tactics.

I will play the open class and see where I stand.

Now give us the starting position cracker! I can't wait much longer :)

Originally posted by cracker
Feelgood,

I think you are not the player that the Conquest class game is targeted for. You have the skills to play well and be "in-the-game" on any difficulty level that you have tried so far and for you the real challenge is to extract those thingst hat you have been doing well and then focus on the key things that will let you play well in a game at deity level.

Look at this game as the opportunity that it really is and that is to measure where you are against the skill levels that will let you survive and/or have fun when the game is really dialed up to one of its most challenging settings.

Good luck in your Open or Predator Class game for Gotm20-Spain.

Oh my god, this means I have to play the open or Predator class... ahhh :eek: :( :cry:

I really have never tried deity for a long time since Babylon GOTM... I lost the game easily.

BTW, thanks for your commendation :love: *grin*. I`ll use this as an encouragement to go through another bloodlust this GOTM :die: . Also, I really have won sometimes in deity. Mostly as Egypt, Aztec or Japan. I`ll play a training game Spain later.

Must win! must win!.... :thumbsup:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these defenders will be able to load onto ships? so they are not entiraly unmobile.
Meisier, No, the immobile defenders cannot load onto ships. They are IMMOBILE except under one extremely rare condition that most players will have no great value in knowing. Let's move on from this subject of trying to think of the most dysfunctional and exploitive uses for the bonuses in the game and do our best to find ways to try and keep you alive into the middle ages. ;)

This is for players like me

Players who are really strugggling at Monarch level and who are trying and learning alot from these posts. Players like me who REALLY have to THINK what these bonuses could be used for to give us a leg up on a level which (well I anyway) would be beaten out of the game by about 500BC!

Thanks Cracker and all the GOTM staff, Im really looking forward to it, will probably not start till the results of GOTM 19 are out , so I can see where I am this month

Phaedria

This sounds great for a player like me. Deity is way beyond me I normally play at Monarch level. I think I would play in the open class at anything lower than Deity though.I've just submitted my GOTM19 ( my first submission for 3 or 4 months) and I was stunned to get a win - not such a good score but a win at Emperor level is good for me. I've picked up quite a few good tips from reading these forums.

Spain-related thoughts:

We are religious and commercial, meaning we already have access to a territory-building improvement that will also help keep citizens content. It also means cheaper marletplaces, which don't require bromze working.

A few thoughts on the specific bonuses:

1. Even so, we still have less units than the AIs. Oh well.

2. Extra settler/worker. I think developing a 2nd city is better than increasing the size of the first city. My only fear is barbs attacking a moving 2nd settler (shades of GOTM 19). If the barb level is stationary, no problem, otherwise I'll probably want an escort, meaning building a warrior from Madrid before moving out. In this case, I'll work on two tiles while I wait.

3. Fortress unit. The good news is that is should stop anything except an Immortal and we aren't likely to see them before 2000 BC. I think I'll be using fortress units to keep safe while I develop Mysticism, Writing and/or Map making and Lit.

I think culture or diplomacy is our best shot, so using the Fortress until we get to Lit., or maybe even Currency, is a good idea.

4. Treasure chests: SirPleb's idea of using them as scouts is great (unless of course we start in the Pyrannes mountains), I plan to use them fairly early. One scenario might be: build madrid, build warrior; use chest 1 for Fortress while having the warrior escort the gang to city site 2. On the other hand, 3 treasure chests do equal one Temple.

5. Money...changes eveything. This should give us some flexibility in buying tech. Would't hurt if we had some left over when we reach Monarchy or Republic.

6. Galeass...let me get Gunpowder first :)

Originally posted by King Of America It also means cheaper marletplaces, which don't require bromze working.
Markets are not cheaper for commercial civs. Markets require currency, not bronze working.

Originally posted by King Of America
3. Fortress unit. The good news is that is should stop anything except an ImmortalActually, I think they'll give immortals a hard time.

If there's a couple of fortified fortresses (no pun intended) in a city their defence rating would be over 4 even on plains/grassland.


regards

Ted

Tao,

Of course you're right that marketplaces are not cheaper for commercial civs--but, as I said, currency doesn't require bronze (or maybe you were just agreeing with me vigorously :) )

GOTM 19 was my first GOTM and first Emperor level game. I won with a space race victory with about 3300 points. I've never played a Diety level game before. How will I know whether I can play conquest or have to play open?

You may play the Conquest class game this month if that game is where you feel comfortable.

Remember that the Conquest class game will have a scoring adjustment to make sure that players in tha class are fairly represented when compared to players of similar skill and experience who play in the open class.

We want you to choose and play the game that will let you get the most out of the process in terms of thrill and enjoyment as well as fun learning opportunities. Some of these opportunities my be "shock and awe" related but hopefully in the balance of game play life you will consider that you have come out ahead overall.

Originally posted by cracker
You may play the Conquest class game this month if that game is where you feel comfortable.


Thanks. I will play conquest for GOTM 20. I will probably play open for games less than diety.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureLarge.gif

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/mac.jpg Sooo. The start position is defined here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm20_spain.shtml), and we lucky Conquest class players will have seven units on a tile in the middle of a floodplain, including two settlers, two workers and three treasure chests with wobbly wheels.

I haven't seen any new thoughts on the effect on our start, so here's my 2 Euro cents worth on how the Conquest class extras might come into play at the start:

We need some shield-producing tiles to complement all that food production, so a bit of exploration wiil be needed before settling down. Based on the information we have, population growth is going to be easier than shield production, though there are likely to be some bonus tiles about. I've tried a couple of Deity practice starts, and one of them was in a flood plain. I lost two pop points to disease before the capital reached size 4. That was forty food and twenty shields written off, so that extra food also comes at a price.

I think I'll found two cities as soon as possible, rather than join both settlers to one city. It will give us two chances to find a decent settler farm location, and provide some backup against getting hit by disease. If the positions are good then they'll get us off to a good population start.

The treasure chests will help to offset possible low early shield production - they'll provide welcome shields for a cheap but powerful fortress in each town, and maybe a head start on a temple in the second city to grab territory. In my practices the AI expanded terrifyingly fast. I'm also guessing the Romans might not be far away given RL Spanish history, so good defences could be needed against Legions as well as barbs.

A Treasure chest moving along with a settler to scout just ahead in the current turn looks like a great idea. Thanks SirPleb. By keeping close to the settler they can quickly disband in the city once it's founded, and you are less likely to waste valuable worker turns on scouting trips up hills.

The hill to the north east looks like one possible city site. Maybe I'll send a treasure chest up the hill on the first turn to take a look.

The western hill looks like it has coast on two sides, although that could be fresh water, of course. Depending on what the first scouting chest finds I would be tempted to send a second treasure chest south to see what happens to the flood plains in that direction. There look to be a couple more flood plain tiles, and one with a wheat bonus would give a great boost to a settler farm, freeing up a citizen to work any shield tile we can find.

On the assumption that we'll have to create one or both cities close to the start, we could get the two workers pulling together on irrigation right away on the start tile unless we see a better tile to work. Alternatively work two adjacent tiles to get the road network going between the twin cities.

Anyone else had any more thoughts since seeing the start position?

Given the start position I will repeat my suggestion about the use of treasury chests. 30 shields are half a granary. With the river banks everywhere you can research pottery in about 15 to 20 turns and you can then build a granary in one of the cities relatively easy.
With some many the floodplains you should be able to grow every three turns and due to the low production the city will become huge as the shields to build those settlers will rack up slowly. Huge cities mean more commerce (and playing with the luxury tax).
You can always use the other town to build units.

Originally posted by Yndy
You can always use the other town to build units. I take your point, but I've been raided by barbs in an undefended capital during practice games. Even a single fortified warrior is no guarantee against losing that extra gold we get at the start of Conquest class. So I really would like a cheap defender in each city. As they are immobile you have to build them where you want them.

Huge cities mean more commerce (and playing with the luxury tax) You're right. Each new pop point working a river tile will generate at least two gpt once we've built roads, and we can already see 15 river tiles. Once we get to a population of 12 in a single city at the start location we should be generating at least 22 gpt before taxes and corruption, even keeping one specialist for minimum science. The entertainment and corruption bills will halve that, but it's still a great start for the piggy bank. The second city could work the three other river tiles we can see already, and there are sure to be a couple more at least, so we are looking at a gold-rich core with lots of tech bargaining power.

So OK, I'll pour some shields into a granary rather than a temple, but I'm still in favour of prioritising defence first, population second for the initial stash of shields. That treasury will need defending.

[edited to correct slightly optimistic estimate of gold production]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM20_CONQtact.jpg
For those of you playing Conquest class, I would suggest moving the 3 starting treasure chests Northeast to the hill, South, and West which will reveal just about the entire surrounding area. This should give you the information necessary to send off the second settler to a decent location. From the image it looks like fertile lands lie to the East, but moving the chests should allow you to determine with certainty where a good city site (ie food bonuses in the city radius + river) would be.

As for what to spend the treasure on, it would be interesting to see what would happen if you founded a city on the start position and spent all 3 to rush a temple on turn 0. You would immediately have 4x the culture of all other civs, and would probably maintain that lead until around 2000 BC when the first AI culture builds would come up (edit: also the capital borders would expand in 3 turns rather than 10 which would get any bonus resources worked that much earlier). What effect would a 4x culture lead have on tech trading? :)

Probably a better idea if you are considering the culture rout is to explore with the treasure chests (see above), then use 2 of the 3 to hurry a temple in your second city to give both of your starting cities expanded borders early on with the benifit of extended access to all bonus tiles in the full city radii of both cities. The extra territory from a border expansion will increase your power rating and reduce the likelyhood of an AI sneak attack. (That being said, I would probably use all 3 to jump start a granery ;) )

I agree with Zwingli about using the treasure chests for early exploration. Before knowing what lies under the fog, I've written some plans in the sand.

Move settler1 NE,NE and settle the capital (settler factory?) on the grassland
Move settler2 SW,SW and settle 2nd city (production city)

science for pottery (aim for about 15 turns)

set both cities to build ID use workers to connect both cities with a road. Irrigate land city1 & mine for city2. When ID done in each city, set city1 to barracks (granary prebuild), set city2 to temple

After chests complete local scouting, 2 goes to city1, 1 goes to city2. After pottery, switch barracks to granary and use chests 1&2 as boost. Use chest 3 to help temple build. If horses nearby, connect and build chariot for scouting else build warrior(s). Switch science to max for writing. After 2-3 warriors built, start palace (Great Library pre-build). Writing done start Literature.

If incense (or other lux) nearby, workers will connect asap.

Each new city will build ID first and workers will connect via roads.
After ID built, build temple.

Try to get 8-10 cities built in during QSC.

If there is a wheat to the south, cities will switch roles.

For those of you who haven't read it yet, there is a very educational post by SirPleb on page 2 of the GOTM 20 pregame dicsussion. A must read for all conquest players IMHO.

Here is a courtesy link directly to that SirPleb post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1008051#post1008051)

Denyd --

It sounds like your first two cities will be too far apart. After reading cracker's GOTM8 breakdown, I will probably put one settler on the hill and send the other SW 2 spaces to grab the incense. Two treasure chests for defenders, the third to speed a temple in city #2.

Ideally, one would like the cities to be on the same side of the river, but with immobile defenders, that is less important.

I'm trying to grab as much land as possible. After, I've established my borders. I'll be filling in the gaps with new cities. I had thought about sending setler2 a little farther, but I'm expecting to find a coastline over there. Also, if I spot lots of water to the west, I might send both settlers east (1 NE & 1 SE), to give myself some room for western expansion later.

I will also check the mini-map to see if we are far north/south. If so, I want to build my cities on the pole side of the river for the additional defensive bonus incase of war/barbs.

I'll probably end up changing all of the plans after the 3 chests spot AI borders in all directions anyway!!!

:wallbash:

After reading the other pre-game posts and a couple of War College articles, Plan B has been formulated:

Out - don't try for Great Lib, forget any type of culture victory, also count out space race.

In - Build both cities to become settler factories. Keep cities close and get as many as possible, probably will use chests (after scout duty complete) for settler completion. First build in all new cities will be 2 ID followed by a worker then a temple. If I can get 2 lux hooked up, that will allow a size 6 city without need for entertainers or slider adjustments. Science to max for pottery, then to min for mysticism / polytheism. Try to trade for horseback riding and be the first to monarchy. Trade poly for as many first/second level techs as possible, saving bronze working for last. If horses nearby, build barracks/horseman army. In early Middle Ages aim for Chvalry, upgrade horses to knights, deny iron to neighbor and take out neighbor before they get muskets. Hopefully, that will allow enough space for us to become a good sized civ. Then fill in any gaps in new territory.

After that, try to be the first to make new world contact to see what's over there. Switch to Republic and get some cash in the bank.

Of course having aggressive neighbors (or none at all), will require new thinking, but that's a future story.

Comments / suggestions please!!

Being able to build 2 cities early really adds a twist to the initial strategy. I like the idea of moving one city to the SW of the starting position and possibly one city to the hill but first I will send a treasure chest to the hill and see what I can see. That is a great idea of using the treasure chests in the first turn to explore in three directions, should really help in city placement. Personally I am going to do my best to turn one city into a settler factory and one city into a warrior producing city. That seems to be the strategy used by many people with good success. My first build order will probably be warrior, immobile defender, warrior, then it will depend on what the game looks like. I will probably use my chests to produce early city improvements. Definitely at least use one for a granary in the city that I want to be a settler factory. Using them for an early temple is an interesting idea but I always seem to lose games where I dont have enough cities and units so I am really going to try and emphasize a quick expansion and I am not sure a temple will really help you there or not.
This should be a really interesting game... good luck to all of my fellow conquistadors.

I really can't see this enthusiasm for sending treasure chests wandering all over a barb-infested map doing wide-ranging scouting, as the first barb they meet they are toast. Am I missing something?

I think they should be used on the very first things you build, because the earlier you complete the first units or improvements the more impact they will have on the whole game.

Keeping the chests doing nothing is like keeping your cash under the bed. It doesn't do anything there except lose its value to inflation. And it's vulnerable to theft by a passing barb until you build a defender.

I think I want to get real scouts out, capable of defending themselves, pdq to find out how the land lies, try to quell the barbs, find the horses and make early contacts. So keep the chests close to the first settlers and use two as soon as the cities are founded to rush two warriors at the start. Use the third chest to accelerate granary-then-settlers in one town, and build a settler asap in the other town to grab a bit more land.

But, like all battle plans, this one will no doubt crumble at first contact with the "enemy" - which in this case is Cracker's infernal map ;)

AlanH,

I think the only scouting people are proposing for the treasure chests is on Turn 1, sending them none space NE, SW and S in order to find the best locations for cities 1 and 2.

I agree that further exploration is unwise.

yeah I was thinking that I would just use the treasure chests to do first turn exploration. i.e. instead of sending a worker to the hill send a treasure chest thus possibly saving a worker turn. I dont know about using them to produce your initial warriors... usually you can crank out warriors pretty quickly so I was thinking it might be better to save them for a quick granary or temple but again it will depend on how the game goes I guess. If in the first 10 turns I see other civs or barbs I will probably use them for IDs if it looks like we are pretty isolated I will save them for a granary.

of course now thinking more about it.... maybe I will use the chests to help produce settlers quickly. If you could save four or 5 turns building a settler early in the game that might be worth it to get a quicker start.

Originally posted by Leovigild I think the only scouting people are proposing for the treasure chests is on Turn 1I was reacting to Denyd's post about using them for settlers after scouting duty is complete. That implies they are scouting around until at least one city gets to pop 3, which is going to take more than one or two turns.

Originally posted by Ricardo
of course now thinking more about it.... maybe I will use the chests to help produce settlers quickly. If you could save four or 5 turns building a settler early in the game that might be worth it to get a quicker start.
10 shields are just that - ten shields. It doesn't matter what you use them for as long as you don't waste them. I can't see why it's important to worry about what you will build with the chests. The most important thing is to get your initial build priorities right to maximise your position in the game, then work out where the resources will come from to achieve that build order in minimum time.

The total flow of shields has to mesh with the flow of food plus the research date for Pottery to enable this build order, and the chests are just one of the sources of shields available to us. They won't be very used very efficiently completing a settler if the city pop hasn't made it to three yet.

The options for using the chest shields are:

(1) to build a complete ten shield unit (warrior, fortress or worker). That will waste at least one shield, maybe more, produced by the city on the turn when the unit is built.

(2) to contribute ten shields towards a 30-shield settler or a 40-shield barracks or a 60-shield granary. Wastage will then depend on how well city production, maybe including a pop rush, can be micromanaged to provide the correct total.

I'm impressed that you guys can decide all of this apparently intuitively :goodjob:. I think it's time for me to build a spreadsheet ready for when the chests first give us that view of the neighbourhood, because I can't work all that out in my head.:eek:

So does everyone generally agree that Pottery+Granary is a must? I've seen other opinions and I personally am leaning toward Writing first.

Using chests towards settlers might well be nice if the initial position is food heavy (as it appears to be). Using 10 shields free per settler allows you to make use of fast pop growth + limited shields.

First post- first tourney- 20- for fanaticland--- a great online community--hope I get to King Arthur age.

Originally posted by Leovigild
So does everyone generally agree that Pottery+Granary is a must? I've seen other opinions and I personally am leaning toward Writing first.

Using chests towards settlers might well be nice if the initial position is food heavy (as it appears to be). Using 10 shields free per settler allows you to make use of fast pop growth + limited shields.

Well, I think it's because with two settlers to start with Pottery just won't take that long to research. Especially with rivers in the starting area. Then you can build a granary in your settler pump for much faster expansion.

Hmm, I think I have downloaded the Galleass for an unit Upgrade from the War Galley. This will be the GOTM that I will finish and Submit.

Orriginaly postrd by TedJackson
Let's hope that many more players see this as an opportunity to get involved in the GotM community.

I beleve it has convinced me to make a return to the GOTM :D.

maqabee, welcome to the GOTM! There's a special graphics package you'll need to download, as well as a readme to help you set the game up. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me or other members of the staff for help through PMs or the FAQ thread. :)

AlanH, you're right, chests are too vaulable to chance on a stray barb. My plan is to use them to short range (2-3 turns) of scouting, hoping to find quality starting locations for the settlers. They'll end up creating either ID's or helping with either a temple or granary.

Leovigild, that's my plan, pottery at full science, then a granary (maybe in both cities, depending on contacts). After pottery, probably writing at minimum science.

I'm expecting the other European rivals (France, Germany, England...) to be nearby, I'm just hoping for a choke point to allow me to expand before they get there. I'm hoping some of the non-science AI's are in the game to start a couple of big wars (to slow down the science).

My biggest fear is reaching 1AD and meeting cavalry & riflemen from an aggresive AI.

Quote: Conquest Class players will have three (3) chest of gold/shields available to them at the beginning of the game.

Maybe this makes no difference today because everyone has probably started, but ...

Note that the announcement says "available" it does not say "on the starting square". I guess I was assuming that I would need to explore a bit to FIND the chests. Only then would I be able to move them according to my purposes.

This would have a huge impact on those who are planning to use the chests as "explorers" in the first few turns.

Late comer to the pre-game discussion, only because I have been finishing up my practise sessions, so that I had at least a passing knowledge of the world of deity.

I'm scared of barbs, and I'm scared of the AI. So, if the chests are on the starting square, I'll be moving one to investigate the hill to the NE, one due south and the other towards the NW hills. I will likely settle on the NE hill first, having seen how much of a difference that makes to the barbs at this level, and then depending on what I see with the chests probably either on the hill to the NW or just south of it - I think that's a coastline there.
After that, the chests are coming home. I will most likely be building two immobile defenders and saving one for my next city. I will probably rush a temple in my second city, since we're religious and it's a little easier.

I intend studying writing at a low rate - in my experience somebody offers me pottery fairly cheap early on anyway, and there's a good chance of getting to writing first and selling it off for whatever I'm behind on (everything). Of course, I will be avoiding Bronze Working for as long as possible. I'm not sure if it's possible to advance to the middle ages without it though (someone?) so I hope to do the majority of my expansion as early as possible using the advantage of the extra settler.

I will pay the AI every demand they make (making sure I sell them writing before they can demand that), until I get a good idea of what the map is about. Any military desicions I make will be very cautious.
I don't hold any hopes of getting to Navigation at the rate of the AI, so I will set up a city with the intent of suicide galley-ing insistently so that I can make first contact with any overseas dwellers and profit from trade with them.

All in all, my main aim will be to reach the modern age intact, and get as many points from losing as I can! Fingers crossed!

Does it really matter if you lose a chest to a barb? A warrior is just as likely to be killed anyway so why not use the chests to explore? You have them right from the start and you won't waste a turn converting them to warriors. The shields you save in not building warriors equates to the shields lost when your chest is attacked. The only downside is that chests won't give you nice mountain views, but it doesn't look like there are any nearby anyway.

My game won't load! It says I need treasure.ini, but it's nowhere on my computer, and I have all of the GOTM20 Spain Conquest d/ls.

Help?

MDM,

This problem sounds like you may not have the game files properly positioned in the correct folders.

Contact by email at gotm@civfanatics.net and we will locate and fix the missplaced file for you.

Originally posted by Iver-P

Note that the announcement says "available" it does not say "on the starting square". I guess I was assuming that I would need to explore a bit to FIND the chests. Only then would I be able to move them according to my purposes.


Iver-P,

I haven't started yet, although I agree with your thoughts. If they are at some position away and you need to find them first, then that changes a lot. I guess we'll see on the first turn pretty quickly how they operate.

I think the GOTM modifications sometimes lead to confusion, especially with newer GOTM players like me. GOTM 19 was (and still is ongoing) my first. I guess I missed some of the mods that were installed in early GOTMs. I remember saying "what the hell are these grey mushy clouds doing". Even with over 25+ Civ3 games completed, I still frequently refer to the terrain/units/science cheatsheet that I downloaded from Civfanatics since my frequency of play is on the low side anymore. I would love for these cheatsheets to be updated with the evolving GOTM mods.

Originally posted by Sailorstick
Does it really matter if you lose a chest to a barb? A warrior is just as likely to be killed anyway so why not use the chests to explore?A warrior has a defence value of 1. A chest's defence value is a big fat zero. A chest is a certain loss if it meets a barb warrior.

The combat calculator gives an unfortified regular warrior on open ground a better than 70% chance of surviving a barb conscript warrior attack. A fortified warrior on a hill has an 85% success rate, and survivors are often promoted. Keep your warriors on tiles with defence bonuses as far as possible, and fortify when you can. Try to avoid attacking - let the barb come to you, as your survival rate as an attacker reduces to around 50%.

Originally posted by maqabee
First post- first tourney- 20- for fanaticland--- a great online community--hope I get to King Arthur age.

Welcome to the forum, even if you're not reading this thread any more.

I am a bit late to get started. I must admit my D2 exploits are still a distraction. It also explains my poor showing in GOTM19 - yeah, that's the ticket - D2's fault ;)

I thought the starting position looked ok until I read some of the posts. Guess I'll do the explore-with-all-hands trick at first. Taking advantage of bonuses seems to be very important, especially for diety.

I too hope to last to the middle ages. Maybe I'll even find a use for the galleasses, if not the galle asses - I mean conquistadors.

Cheers and see you in the spoilers.

thanks cracker... you made me jump on deity. I

I have played emperor for the first time on GOTM19 and won!! (thanks to amazing set up of land from the guys)

Now Deity was for me out of reach since I am not a war person and AI on deity are way too "cheating".. now with the bonus.. it gives newbies like me the small adge to get us in the game..

with this maybe next time I won"t need the bonus.. :-))
thanks and this time I don"t miss the deadline.. :-(..
See you guys in a month.. for the result

I'm probably the last to get started, but conquest bonuses have given me the nerve to try GOTM20. Thanks cracker!

I hope to survive to 1000AD, and I plan to stay pacifist. I'll start by scouting briefly with the chests and settle the NE hills for the defensive bonus.

I can't decide what to do with the chests. It depends on the map. With close neighbors, I'll probably apply them toward IDs or Temple/Granary. But if we have an uncontested expansion area, I am toying with the idea of turning the chests into a headstart on the Pyramids. Our bonuses seem tailor made for this: 'free' city, extra sheilds, cheap early defenders. Possibly a fatal gamble, but I may try. It could cause AIs to waste a lot of shields if I time it right. (I hate it when this happens to me...this may be my only chance for revenge). And as a pacifist, I have to grow all of my own citizens - no capturing cities - so granaries are crucial. Anyone know if a 30 shield headstart would be enough on Deity? Does the AI have to pay full price for wonders at Deity? And will the chests disband toward ANYTHING you are producing, or just units/improvements? (I don' t know how to run a test on this.)

Elandra - Don't plan on the chests for building wonders. I'm betting they wont add sheilds to a wonder. (I'm playing in the Open Class so I cant confirm but I think the game mechanics are like disbanding an infantry for 25sheilds. (or whatever it is)) Disbanding units do not add to the wonder production.

Do the Galleass have the same limitations as Galleys when it comes to sea / ocean travel?

Originally posted by denyd
Do the Galleass have the same limitations as Galleys when it comes to sea / ocean travel?
You can determine this inside the game by looking at the pathfinder trace as it draws across different types of water terrain. The Galleas can bombard and kill sea units at close range but its range of movement is 1 shorter that Caravel or Galley.

The unit can travel in any place that a caravel may go but its reduced movement rate makes it much more susceptible to "accidents" until after navigation (or magnetism) is discovered.