I think its about time we get a place up and running to put up on going developments for LotR mods/units/buildings etc...

i will start looking into get hosting from strategyplanet (like the starwars mod) but first we need content...

dont you think it might be wiser to wait for the Next expansion to come out? the new editor promises many usefull changes.

Who are you, Celeborn-who-is-who-he-is? :)

I am in agreement, a lot of people talk about it, but no-one has put in full commitment to it. Lets go over the material,

UNITS:

Elven Units-
Elf Worker
'High Elven Army' (archer\swordsman\spearmen)

Dwarven Units-
Dwarf Worker
Dwarf High Guard
Dwarf Warrior
Dwarf 'iron breaker'

Interesting thing about these, is you can use his
'redone' units as upgraded units for the ones that arent. IE the 'high guard' and the 'warrior'.

Mordor-
Goblin Worker
Orc Warrior
Goblin Archer
Goblin Spearman (Kindred)
Goblin Spearman (embryodead)
Balrog
Wolf Rider
Warg Rider
Cave Troll
Dragon
Uruk Hai swordsman
Uruk Hai beserker

Rohan-
Norman Knight
Horesman (civ3)
Germanic Spearman

Other-
Fanatic
Hobbit
Ent

These are all I can think of for custom made fantasy units at the moment. Obviously many non-fantasy units, such as the European Swordsman, or the Scottish warrior would go well for Rohan, and others for Gondor. The 'man' civs shouldn’t be to hard to find units for. Same with the Elves.

Fëanor, I don’t think waiting is a good idea, we, if we want a mod that is, should get started as soon as possible. A LotR mod has been in contemplation since the beginning, and always for some reason it was postponed, and besides, we can always import the material back to conquests, the main thing is getting started.

BtW, I am only interested in helping if this will stick to 'Tolkien-history'. If your going to have Dwarves buildings Ents, I'm out of here ;). I would prefer we go by the books also.

I'm in agreement here. What do you think I've been working towards.:D

LoL, yeah, I remember you kept bumping that other thread where everyone liked the idea but no one started to take definitive action;). Your units are great BtW :).

Terrain, I have been thinking about it. I think we should use the European terrain that came with PtW, maybe change the oceans to regular Civ3 graphics, and use Womoks mountains. Either that or we should just use Womoks Terrain period, it has more of an ‘epic’ feel to it.

Map, I haven’t checked out the User created maps for a while, but I think one is necessary. Without it we will be making it solely for a RM experience, and it thus lacks a story, something we don’t want.

Tech Icons shouldn’t be to hard to come by (Yoda Power made a collection pack of them). Things that will be hard will be the tech-tree, and Civilopedia entries. We should skip the Civilopedia entries for now. In fact, we should skip all the art things now also, what we should concentrate on is units stats, general setting modifications, and the Tech-tree. We need to make the Tech Tree generic and we cant give it clever names just yet. A basic outline would be fine for now, such as ‘basic-warrior tech 1' which would introduce a warrior-type for each civ. A goblin warrior, or a Elven swordsman for example.

I will be working on ATG with Kryten, but no one said I can’t do to things at once, and all I have to do there is mindlessly make static graphics, and leave the thinking to the people who can handle it;).

PCHighway you took the words right out of my mouth (in regards to Fëanor's post)

Also i agree with keeping to the books as much as possible, like you said dwarf building ents just doesnt work :P

i know Kindred... but know its time to take ACTION!!!

(again :) )

also we have at least two LotR mods floating about the forums...

To shamelessly promote myself :D, I think that my city graphics would work well for Mordor/Saruman (Evil Citadel) and the dwarves. If the Easterners and the Southrons will be in they can use my Oriental cities.
For terrain stats I think that mountains should be completely impassable, and you can add small rivers in the deserts of mordor, which are hidden by mountains. This gives flood plains which isn't that visible. Flood plains should be very good. In my Lone Wolf mod I'm experimenting with giving flood plains 1 shield, and make them minable. This is of course not that important if it is a scenario, but in a mod you need to get mordor some early production. I also have a Volcano resource (you can see it in my Evil Citadel preview) which is usable, at least until conquests comes around.

Edit: 600th post! Does this give me two avatars? :D

I would like very much to contribute to this. I actually posted a rather long-winded thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=49465) about some of my ideas back after I had first joined up, but no one showed much interest and I forgot about it.

Anyway, I'm working mainly on Civ3K right now but I would love to help with this. I agree with PCHighway, that all graphics should be left till later. Right now vanilla civ3 graphics can be used as stand-ins.

And I would also PC in that this should stick to the books.

Probably, as PC already said, the tech tree will be hardest. I would be willing to work on Civilopedia articles, though, but not immediately. :)

Probably the civs should be fleshed out first, then units and unit lines, then improvements, then wonders, and then the tech tree last. Civiliopedia and graphics are probably the least important.

I really, really hope something comes of this. :)

mrtn no shameless promoting...

your citys could be used for dwarves perhaps, but there are at least 2 other evil-city options (my own being one of them ;) )

GE, i read through most (if not all) your ideas, and your civ ideas are pretty good...

and if we use sauron and suraman (sp) for leaders we already have some leader heads ready for use...

ps.. shaka zulu could perhaps be used for the haradrim leader head :D


pps. im also still working on my LotR intro...

Celeborn- PCHighway you took the words right out of my mouth (in regards to Fëanor's post)I try ;).
Celeborn-also we have at least two LotR mods floating about the forums... True, but Eclipse last post was a month ago, and even then was just about another thread-discussion as we have here. As for Nobby, while he seems to be updating more frequently, I am always worried he will stop to do so. With a MOD team, as we seem to be mounting here, we could pretty much always expect the MOD to be continually updated. If someone wanted to leave they would simply pass the reins down, the MOD would not completely stop.mrtn- To shamelessly promote myself:D, I think that my city graphics would work well for Mordor/Saruman (Evil Citadel) and the dwarves. If the Easterners and the Southrons will be in they can use my Oriental cities. We can use a lot of the stuff around here, any suggestions one Terrain graphics?
mrtn-Edit: 600th post! Does this give me two avatars?:D Bah, all you off-topic posters always seem to beat me to that number;). GEChallenger- I would like very much to contribute to this. I actually posted a rather long-winded thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=49465) about some of my ideas back after I had first joined up, but no one showed much interest and I forgot about it. You have to take into account that there are nearly 32.000 members, many of whom never post, and many of whom probably didn’t feel that could add to the MOD. Even though anyone who shows interest in Tolkien can contribute something.GEChallenger-Probably the civs should be fleshed out first, then units and unit lines, then improvements, then wonders, and then the tech tree last. Civiliopedia and graphics are probably the least important.Sounds like a good way to go to me. Even though I think I generic tech tree should come first, as one would act as an entire blueprint to the MOD.Celeborn- pps. I’m also still working on my LotR intro...
LotR Intro? My silver-tree friend, what does this mean?

Now I bring up the question of Culture groups. What should we have? We can only have five, so we must lump the Elves as one, and probably Mordor and her allies as one also, even if they have different unit lines. And then the obvious ones, so perhaps something like this.

I. Mordor- (name???)
II. Elves
III. Men
IV. Dwarves
V. - - - - - ?

The last one could be anything unless I forgot an important one. But remember, it should have at least 3 Civs, and preferably close related civs. I.e. No ‘Misc. Civ culture group’ :). I noticed that in GEC’s thread you put Hobbits as a Culture group, even though you had only one Civ as them? But looking at it makes some startlingly questions, such as capitals and cities, we will need to scourge the books around, maybe even post a link ‘library’. So here are some usefull links I know of.


LotR Fanatic site (http://www.lordotrings.com/) (it should be a sister site of Civ Fanatics ;) )
Tolkien Society (http://www.tolkiensociety.org/)
Middle Earth Reunion (http://www.alt-tolkien.com/index.html)
JRRT Information Page (http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/relipper/tolkien/rootpage.html)
The last Alliance (http://www.wildfiregames.com/tla/index.php) A freeware RTS in production by Wildfire games, a group of Modders.

All I can think of at the moment.

I've been trying provide units for this, but, I am not familiar yet with actually putting together a mod. We need someone who gathers all the info and art and actually puts the mod together.

Good point :). We should probably assign positions, I sort of assumed Celeborn was putting the MOD together, and would act as leader, ie. the one with the actual version of the MOD, while 'we' go about making parts of it. Tech tree, unit stats\animations, Civs, etc. The only problem with this is it can't all be done at once, by separate people. So, I think we should go with just conferring about it, i.e. someone posts a screenshot of a potential tech tree (maybe a .bix file to). And then we all modify it, by giving advice, etc. thus we are a mod team ;). I can't think of any other way to go.

I like this idea, a team should be made. BTW I think Balrog was going to make a new lotr mod, but im not sure he has startet:)

Yes, I mentioned that. But I don't think he was actually going to do it. His last post was 18 days ago. Will you help:)?

LotR mod big project (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47103&)

Originally posted by PCHighway
... We can use a lot of the stuff around here, any suggestions one Terrain graphics?I really like Warpstorms.

Bah, all you off-topic posters always seem to beat me to that number;). What? I don't think that I have posted more than 2 posts in OT.

... Even though I think I generic tech tree should come first, as one would act as an entire blueprint to the MOD. Yes. A tech tree is important. It is good to make a generic tech tree, and putting down "First Offensive Unit", and such.
LotR Intro? My silver-tree friend, what does this mean? A film, I think.

Now I bring up the question of Culture groups. What should we have? We can only have five, so we must lump the Elves as one, and probably Mordor and her allies as one also, even if they have different unit lines. And then the obvious ones, so perhaps something like this.

I. Mordor- (name???)
II. Elves
III. Men
IV. Dwarves
V. - - - - - ?

The last one could be anything unless I forgot an important one. But remember, it should have at least 3 Civs, and preferably close related civs. I.e. No ‘Misc. Civ culture group’ :). I noticed that in GEC’s thread you put Hobbits as a Culture group, even though you had only one Civ as them? But looking at it makes some startlingly questions, such as capitals and cities, we will need to scourge the books around, maybe even post a link ‘library’. ...
We really need to decide what to do about the hobbits. One idea is to make "The Shire and Surroundings" as one civ. This would include both Shire, Bree and the Rangers. As of now we only have one hobbit unit, and I don't really think that we should have that many. (Hobbit archer, ok, but hobbit swordsman? Hobbit Knight?) This civ would then have hobbits as early units, and rangers as their kick-ass unit. This civ could be of the Hobbit culture, as we then could use some nice hobbit city graphics.

Yoda: I think that Balrog probably is busy with his Fantasy Empires mod.

Will you help I would join the team, then maybe later, when I have more time.

mrtn- I really like Warpstorms.I think it's ok, but definitely not my style, and I would change it (to un-realistic for me) lets leave it up to the down loader and just use regular Civ3 graphics? mrtn- What? I don't think that I have posted more than 2 posts in OT. Sorry I must have confused you for someone else.mrtn- A film, I think. That is what I was thinking, but that seems really difficult, and, hate to say it, unnecessary... Wouldn't it be wise to get the MOD worked out before concentrating on this?
mrtn- We really need to decide what to do about the hobbits. One idea is to make "The Shire and Surroundings" as one civ. This would include both Shire, Bree and the Rangers. As of now we only have one hobbit unit, and I don't really think that we should have that many. (Hobbit archer, ok, but hobbit swordsman? Hobbit Knight?) This civ would then have hobbits as early units, and rangers as their kick-ass unit. This civ could be of the Hobbit culture, as we then could use some nice hobbit city graphics. I'm not so sure. The Shire is more than enough to be it's own Civ, compared to the one city-empires we have going on here. But I can't argue with the fact, one hobbit unit won't do it. We should probably do what you say, and then, if the materials arrive, we can split up the civs in a later version.

:o This might sound like a stupid idea, but what if we have the Fellowship as a Army with the characters in it? It could work for a extra Scenario, but of course requires more thought.

Originally posted by PCHighway
I think it's ok, but definitely not my style, and I would change it (to un-realistic for me) lets leave it up to the down loader and just use regular Civ3 graphics? The thing is that the choise of terrain graphics affect how city (and other) graphic look when you put them together. This might be the easiest solution though.
... :o This might sound like a stupid idea, but what if we have the Fellowship as a Army with the characters in it? It could work for a extra Scenario, but of course requires more thought. Not in a mod, but maybe in a scenario.

mrtn- Not in a mod, but maybe in a scenario. That is why is said in an extra Scenario. I agree with you about terrain, I think your cities look great with regular Civ3 terrain graphics also, though. Well, I think it should get started soon, what should we work on first? You want me to start working on a generic tech tree?

hmmm... i would'nt mind puting together the mod, but the main problem with that at the moment is the fact that i do not have PTW (as yet, might get it in the next week or two)

For the hobbits I already have a city created city graphic (just need to clean it up a bit)

Also I know the Intro isnt top priorety(sp), but i am mostly doneand its most likely the only graphic contribution I can make... :cry:

The terrian should be based around the basic Civ3 terrian with some minor changes in my own opinion...

Why cant you do units? You seem pretty good with other graphics.

yeah i ok with other graphics, but realistic units and unit animation escape for the moment... :(

*ahem* hello... :D just thought i'd make my presence known.

Celeborn- hmmm... i wouldn’t mind putting together the mod, but the main problem with that at the moment is the fact that i do not have PTW (as yet, might get it in the next week or two)That would be great. Technically we won’t be putting anything ‘together’ for a while in any case, just fooling around with some stuff, the way I envision it. So feel free to play a few games when you do get it ;).
Celeborn- For the hobbits I already have a city created city graphic (just need to clean it up a bit) And you were saying you couldn’t contribute with graphics beyond the intro, this would be great;). Perhaps we can use them for someone else, and if not, we still have the culture group open, we can still have them, but we’ll have to get used to Hobbits not building normal-hobbit things.
Celeborn- Also I know the Intro isnt top priority, but i am mostly done and its most likely the only graphic contribution I can make... It sounds really good, and I am amazed and what you went to do this, now I know what you meant by ‘LotR Modders UNITE!!’ ;).Celeborn- The terrain should be based around the basic Civ3 terrian with some minor changes in my own opinion... Sounds good to me.
sween32- *ahem* hello...:Djust thought i'd make my presence known. Did you guys hear something :confused: ? LoL, No I’m joking, but before I maniacally start requesting things, what exactly is your presence ;)?

wrong thread. sorry :P

Originally posted by sween32
*ahem* hello... :D just thought i'd make my presence known.
By the way, could someone make a Sauron Leaderhead? :p

This is the tech tree for the first age of my Lone Wolf mod, we can use it to base the discussions around.

heya,
I will post in-game screenshots of my tech tree for wh-mod (46 techs in 2 eras, 3 era isnt finished yet), in 2-3 days. it's pretty generic fantasy, but different from yours (with a lot of magic), maybe you will find something useful there (i made some tech icons etc.)

I'll later post very nice ( :) ) wood elf cities, should be useful for LOTR too. also expect some wood elf units soon.

if I may suggest something, use Sn00pyG terrain - it really fits a fantasy mod. and replace jungles with smoking mirror's swamps!

Did you guys hear something :confused: ? LoL, No I’m joking, but before I maniacally start requesting things, what exactly is your presence ;)? My presence? My presence??? I'm not sure yet, but I could help in some way. let me think... nope i have absolutely nothing to offer...
:confused:

I'll see what I can do, as long as a LotR mod gets done at some point in my lifetime.

PCHigway-And you were saying you couldn’t contribute with graphics beyond the intro, this would be great

fine then... the intro and the odd city or two...

Also when I say unite I mean UNITE!!!!!!! :D

Sween it would be great if you could get your wood elf leaderhead done (that is if your still working on it)

*Ponders if there is "dead marshes" type terrian floating about*

My grammar is horrible in some of my posts...

*edit*
Oh yeah also a big thing in terms of graphics would be new wonder imrovment, and generic city building graphics...

*ponders a possible redoing of the palace graphic sets*

Originally posted by Celeborn
...*Ponders if there is "dead marshes" type terrian floating about*...
Hm, maybe. It depends on if you mean a whole terrain set or a resource:

Hey,

are the giants that I've made of any use in this mod? They could be some rare living statues: Lava giant for the Sauron, Clay giant for the dwarves and Sea giant for the elves... ;)

aaglo, I don't think so. :( I at least don't want to make a Invent-your-own-and-call-it-LotR-mod, but to try to make it as accurate according to the books as possible.
I got an idea. If we make it a regicide mod, we can have, for example, Gandalf as one king, and Saruman as another. In this way we don't risk the player or AI building hundreds of Gandalf units. And the magicians will be quite rare, we shouldn't have as much magic as in warhammer and other fantasy worlds. If the Misty Mountain Orcs are one civ they can have the Balrog as king. We don't want hundreds of Balrogs either, even though it's a very cool unit.

This is a Dwarven City List I made way back for ToT. I've used every name I found of Dwarf settlements in midgard. As you can see, I've reused a lot of names, if I had both the elven and the Dwarven name, I added them both. As you see it's very short, but I don't think we should invent too many names.
Belegost
Nogrod
Khazad-Dûm
Gabilgathol
Mickleburg
Tumunzahar
Erebor
Lonely Mountain
Hollowbold
Moria
Grey Mountains
Iron Hills
Blue Mountains
Aglarond

could we have use of dargon unit? There are dragons in Silmarillion, ground dragons, not flying ones. I've made an dragon unit in 3D studio MAX, but I don't know how to animate him. I9m still learning.

Damn I have a lot of quoting to do, but here goes...mrtn- This is the tech tree for the first age of my Lone Wolf mod, we can use it to base the discussions around.Looks good, but brings up the question, just what ‘ages’ will we have in the MOD? Will we begin with the coming of man? The coming of Elves? Or just center it around the famed trilogy?
embryodead- heya,
I will post in-game screenshots of my tech tree for wh-mod (46 techs in 2 eras, 3 era isnt finished yet), in 2-3 days. it's pretty generic fantasy, but different from yours (with a lot of magic), maybe you will find something useful there (i made some tech icons etc.) That’s good, we will probably have a version that coincides between the two, depending on what time frame we go with.
embryodead- I'll later post very nice ( :) ) wood elf cities, should be useful for LOTR too. also expect some wood elf units soon. Thats is also good, but it makes me wonder, how can we incorporate between the Eldar and the Avari (‘Light’ Elves \ ‘Dark’ Elves). If this MOD begins with the coming of Elves, perhaps it will be best to make them two different Culture groups?embryodead- If I may suggest something, use Sn00pyG terrain - it really fits a fantasy mod. and replace jungles with smoking mirror's swamps!Of course you can, But I’m not so sure, I think Womoks would be better for this type of MOD, mrtn thinks Warpstorms would be best, and you think Snoopy’s is the one to go with. Leaving it up to the down loader, with a special note on choosing (the strengths and weakness of each) will be the best bet.sween32- My presence? My presence??? I'm not sure yet, but I could help in some way. let me think... nope i have absolutely nothing to offer...
Don’t get offended, I was just making sure if you had time, let alone felt like doing it, before I started requesting leaderheads with reckless abandon. As for getting it done in your lifetime, you can’t argue with the inevitable ;). It is bound to get done, especially with the Movie factor adding to popularity.Celeborn- Oh yeah also a big thing in terms of graphics would be new wonder improvement, and generic city building graphics... I’ll try and do something about it, in the mean time there are quite a few already made that can be used.Celeborn- *ponders a possible redoing of the palace graphic sets* Been doing a lot of pondering as of late have you? ;) I wouldn’t know if it’s possible, I have never tried, nor heard of anyone trying, but it may have happened at one point.mrtn- Hm, maybe. It depends on if you mean a whole terrain set or a resource: I remember seeing you post that in ATG, and think it’s great, and opens great possibilities. We may not be able to have customized City gfx for each Civ, but at least we can make the Terrain features very unique. We should probably put these resources over the ‘swamp’ Terrain, so it will have the same effects. I.e Fortify and die, or something along that nature. We may want to put a road system through the Dead Marshes. And put some wheeled barbarian Ghosts along the paths, making it less than advantages for Mordor to want to go there... But then again, it would probably just lure all the AI warriors to come and kill them :rolleyes: .aaglo- Hey,

are the giants that I've made of any use in this mod? They could be some rare living statues: Lava giant for the Sauron, Clay giant for the dwarves and Sea giant for the elves... ;) mrtn- aaglo, I don't think so. :( I at least don't want to make a Invent-your-own-and-call-it-LotR-mod, but to try to make it as accurate according to the books as possible. I have to agree with mrtn here, but maybe we will be able to use one for a King unit? There just weren’t many (no) Giants in Lotr, sorry:cringe:.mrtn- I got an idea. If we make it a regicide mod, we can have, for example, Gandalf as one king, and Saruman as another. In this way we don't risk the player or AI building hundreds of Gandalf units. And the magicians will be quite rare, we shouldn't have as much magic as in warhammer and other fantasy worlds. If the Misty Mountain Orcs are one civ they can have the Balrog as king. We don't want hundreds of Balrogs either, even though it's a very cool unit. Good Idea :goodjob:. Here is what I was thinking, we don’t want to limit the MOD itself to regicide, but we should have no problems about doing so with the LotR scenario (main feature). So, what we should do is have active player on, and have each Civilization start with one of these units, give them high defenses, maybe even mark them as immobile, or king units (It shouldn’t have any effect if it’s not on regicide). But the AI will still guard them, thinking if it dies so do ‘I’. This way we can have multiple King units, so Sam and the Other Hobbits beside Frodo can all be included. Another option to do that is ‘armies’ which I mentioned earlier. If it possible to make a Army a King Unit? If so, we can include either the entire Fellowship, or parts of it. Such as Frodo, and Sam, or Pippin and Merry. That last Idea would only really work in a distinct scenario, where the player can only play as ‘The Fellowship’. TO lower the amount of Balrogs, giving them High Cost and many population Should do it. Couple that with a resource, and we can limit it to only one city or two building them.
mrtn- This is a Dwarven City List I made way back for ToT. I've used every name I found of Dwarf settlements in midgard. As you can see, I've reused a lot of names, if I had both the elven and the Dwarven name, I added them both. As you see it's very short, but I don't think we should invent too many names.
Belegost
Nogrod
Khazad-Dûûm
Gabilgathol
Mickleburg
Tumunzahar
Erebor
Lonely Mountain
Hollowbold
Moria
Grey Mountains
Iron Hills
Blue Mountains
Aglarond NIce List :D . I agree with you again, but we have to have atleast 15-20 cities for each Civ IMHO, no matter what.

Doc M- Could we have use of dargon unit? There are dragons in Silmarillion, ground dragons, not flying ones. I've made an dragon unit in 3D studio MAX, but I don't know how to animate him. I9m still learning. Nice Dragon there, it is up to you to make it of course, but we aren’t really sure about time periods yet. Which leads me to another thing...

I think we should start with the coming of Man, pretty much all the Civs were around then (except the Hobbits, but we can represent that with City gfx) And for the LotR scenario, we can simply quadruple the techs cost, and make them start in the appropriate age. This wouldn’t limit other people who want to make their own Scenario’s to post either!

Originally posted by PCHighway
...Of course you can, But I’m not so sure, I think Womoks would be better for this type of MOD, mrtn thinks Warpstorms would be best, and you think Snoopy’s is the one to go with. Leaving it up to the down loader, with a special note on choosing (the strengths and weakness of each) will be the best bet. Yes, this is probably best.

Originally posted by PCHighway
... Another option to do that is ‘armies’ which I mentioned earlier. If it possible to make a Army a King Unit? If so, we can include either the entire Fellowship, or parts of it. Such as Frodo, and Sam, or Pippin and Merry. That last Idea would only really work in a distinct scenario, where the player can only play as ‘The Fellowship’.
I don't really understand this idea. Remember that you only see one unit at a time in an army.
Originally posted by PCHighway
...TO lower the amount of Balrogs, giving them High Cost and many population Should do it. Couple that with a resource, and we can limit it to only one city or two building them.
I don't think this will work. The AI will only build Balrogs, and reduce all their cities to size one. :( Remember that there were only one Balrog left in the Third Age.

Originally posted by PCHighway
... NIce List :D . I agree with you again, but we have to have atleast 15-20 cities for each Civ IMHO, no matter what. That depends on the size of the map. It shouldn't be bigger than Large IMHO. After all, I want to be able to play the scenario. :eek:

Originally posted by PCHighway
...I think we should start with the coming of Man, pretty much all the Civs were around then (except the Hobbits, but we can represent that with City gfx) And for the LotR scenario, we can simply quadruple the techs cost, and make them start in the appropriate age. This wouldn’t limit other people who want to make their own Scenario’s to post either!
The hobbits were probably around, remember that they are small. :)

If you are considdering a Fellowship scenario, then take a look at this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49586&) thread I posted some time ago:)

In terms of ages i tought that it should start in the age of starlight (ie. with the coming of the elves) and go through to the third age of the sun...

that way we also have a "future tech" ie. "The Dominion of Men"

also most of what we know of tolkiens world goes no further than the end of the third age...

and PC, I do a LOT of pondering...

also we coyuld perhaps use aaglo's fire gaint for an Evil king unit... (melkior for example if we choose to have him in the game)

mrtn, i mean "dead marshes" as in a replacement for maybe tundra, or even desert...

dragons could be an advanced babarian...
strike terror into the hearts of mortals...

Originally posted by Celeborn
In terms of ages i tought that it should start in the age of starlight (ie. with the coming of the elves) and go through to the third age of the sun...

that way we also have a "future tech" ie. "The Dominion of Men" I think this is too early. We should have some human civs, and we can't let them begin in the middle of the game. :(

Originally posted by Celeborn
...mrtn, i mean "dead marshes" as in a replacement for maybe tundra, or even desert...

dragons could be an advanced babarian...
strike terror into the hearts of mortals...

We probably need those terrain types, though.

And I thought about the dragons. Would it be possible make it like this?
Make mountains impassable.
Put a mountain, for example the Lonely Mountain :) on the map, and put a airport and a dragon on it.
Make the dragon a air unit, which can't re-base. (Or don't have anywhere to re-base to)
Give it a nice operational range.
Wouldn't this dragon make attacks from this mountain? And the player can't attack it, so it will be a terror for ages. I don't have very much airplane experience, but this should work, shouldn't it?

I think this is too early. We should have some human civs, and we can't let them begin in the middle of the game.

yes and Licon along with Elizabeth was alive in 4000BC, not to forget that both the USA and England as countries existed back then....

not to sure of the dragon idea there but it could work...

we might be able to use the tundra but i dont really remember deserts in LotR...

Celeborn - look at the brown swamps (not original blue) made by Smoking Mirror... they are really good for dead marshes, and they look great in game.

I think we should use jungles as swamps. And can't you describe Mordor as desert? That's what I'd use at least.

mrtn- I don't really understand this idea. Remember that you only see one unit at a time in an army. Is seeing them all at once important? Here is the background of my idea. In what I am pretty sure is the first LotR thread ever at CFC, this guy talked about a Civ2 scn. That had the victory come when someone brought ‘Frodo’ to Mt. Doom. Now, in conquests we are promised New Victory conditions, and perhaps some more Editing goodness as they are making ‘campaigns’. If we had an Army, and named it ‘the fellowship’ coupled with Yoda’s idea about the Road thing, we could get a good scenario going. Or even without the Road idea (which is complicated) It could still be fun, for instance, we could make Frodo and Sam upgrade to a more powerful version of themselves at a certain point, where they become non-wheeled, and take a new path while the others go their different ways. Later one we can give Frodo the ‘Invisible ability’ yet have certain ‘detect invisible’ units around the path. Making you have to use strategy. It’s just an Idea, but having the Fellowship in a group form makes perfect sense to me, even outside of a Scenario, although, I realize this probably isn’t the way to go. mrtn- I don't think this will work. The AI will only build Balrogs, and reduce all their cities to size one. :( Remember that there were only one Balrog left in the Third Age. Yes, only one in the Third age :). We (once again) could have two form of them, one less powerful, and another more powerful, remember, the unit has 3 attack animations, the first one could only include the sword, while the last cycles through all, just to add flavor, it only requires a different .ini (not two whole 9mb files :eek: ) .

-Good Idea Yoda, but we really can’t decide until the MOD is pretty much complete, it would be hard to signify the splitting up of the Fellowship anyway, though And if we used the army idea, we have to give the ‘unload option’ for the player to do it himself.

Celeborn- In terms of ages i thought that it should start in the age of starlight (ie. with the coming of the elves) and go through to the third age of the sun... I’m sort of torn between your idea and mrtn’s. But I am glad we aren’t going with just the Third age. They both have their pluses, so lets try and compromise, starting with the elves, we have more material to work with, yet, ‘the coming of man’ won’t work very well, and if we go with ‘the arrival of man’ we skip the whole ‘barbaric’ age, with weak Orcs and powerful elves. It basically would then start slightly after the ‘fourth battle’ yet everything would fit in perfectly as far as realism goes. I think we should start slightly before the Elves met the Men, in-between both of your suggestions (but closer to mrtn’s). This way we can give the early men handicaps, like high cost workers and settlers, yet (the ‘good’ ones) would get an alliance with the Elves, and the ‘evil’ ones would have the protection of Mordor. It would just be to hard to have them start in the twilight, unless we have super cheap techs, but then, what we be the point of even having the techs?

As for Marshes, I don’t think we should replace deserts, how about Jungles? We can call it simply ‘marshes’ (instead of swamps) and for the dead marshes in particular, we can put that resource over it, to give it an awesome look :) . Same with the Lothlorien forests, we can put in a resource that looks like a ‘golden’ forest, to make it look more distinct.

On the subject of dragons, that is a little drastic, and would make having a dragon around a pointless (imagine a mere warrior beating up Glaurung). We should use it as a early dragon as Doc (can I call you Doc ;) ) suggested. Which upgrades to a winged dragon mrtn is talking about, which leads to...mrtn- And I thought about the dragons. Would it be possible make it like this?
Make mountains impassable.
Put a mountain, for example the Lonely Mountain :) on the map, and put a airport and a dragon on it.
Make the dragon a air unit, which can't re-base. (Or don't have anywhere to re-base to)
Give it a nice operational range.
Wouldn't this dragon make attacks from this mountain? And the player can't attack it, so it will be a terror for ages. I don't have very much airplane experience, but this should work, shouldn't it? That is one hell of a brainstorm :goodjob: !!! It would be great, and give us a use for the Airports and simulate certain things perfectly! All we need is to modify the Airstrip graphics, make it a pile of treasure perhaps? :D This also gives a function for the ‘non-winged’ Dragons, maybe they shouldn’t upgrade :). Also, if we make Great leaders warrior like units with good stats, then perhaps they can go and kill the dragon (they would be unwheeled??). I want to suggest some things in the wishlist, such as ‘specific animation for leader units’ and ‘only build unit once’.

Celebon- yes and Lincoln along with Elizabeth was alive in 4000BC, not to forget that both the USA and England as countries existed back then.... yes, and don’t we all agree thats absurd? We want to stick to the books is what I thought. Yoda Power made great new tundra graphics, the snow is more white in them. Or we can borrow some from the winter terrain pack in PtW. Are you getting it soon BtW?

Lets name the ages, this seem to be the first problem our roundtable talk has brought up ;). Once we get them, we can get the Civs and Culture groups down. Once again, lets get the ages down, and now. First priority.


[Edit- Mrtn, took the words out of my mouth with the Jungle bit. As for the desert, maybe a black ash-land desert?]

hmmm... i understand waht you mean with the arival of man and all, but that leaves us with only tree ages, which have to fit into four era's :(

so so far we have the first second and third age of the sun, which leaves us with on age missing and i dont think the fourt age would really work for reasons mentioned above...

replacing jungles could work well...

i might be able to make a black desert type terrian...

the "airport" in mrtns idea could be a dragon roost?

but that leaves us with only tree ages Got tree's on the brain there ;). As for the ashlands, if you feel your up to it, but I don't know where you can find some 'base' gfx... Morrowind has Ashland terrain, I might be able to get some from there ;). But now we have to include them into the credits, which BTW I have been working on :lol:. I just wanted to see If I could replace that Elvis pic at the end, with one of Tolkiens, it looks sweet, very glossed. In PtW, the airfields basically give air units the abilities that a city would, without the city.

But wasn’t the Mod supposed to end in the third age? How can we have four if we started with the elves twilight? Ah wait, are we going to have the Fourth age, or just make it the future tech like (I think it was you) mentioned?

Originally posted by PCHighway
... That is one hell of a brainstorm :goodjob: !!! It would be great, and give us a use for the Airports and simulate certain things perfectly! All we need is to modify the Airstrip graphics, make it a pile of treasure perhaps? :D This also gives a function for the ‘non-winged’ Dragons, maybe they shouldn’t upgrade :). Also, if we make Great leaders warrior like units with good stats, then perhaps they can go and kill the dragon (they would be unwheeled??). I want to suggest some things in the wishlist, such as ‘specific animation for leader units’ and ‘only build unit once’....[Edit- Mrtn, took the words out of my mouth with the Jungle bit. As for the desert, maybe a black ash-land desert?]
I don't really know how airports function, but is it so that they disappear if swallowed by foreign culture? In that case we can have mountains completely impassable (which we IMO should have anyway). The only way to get rid of the dragon would be to build a city in the dragons operational range and build lots of culture. :nya:

The desert could be gray, but not too black, that would probably look weird.

EDIT: Celeborn, we don't need to have four eras. It's easy to mod so that everyone start in the second era, so we have 2nd, 3rd and 4th eras, i e first to third age. :)

Ages, Ages, Ages, we need to think of some names people!

I also recommend the MOD team ( are we a team yet ;) ) start reading the Silmarillion again if your schedule permits. I was hoping some people who knew it very well, or even just a little would come in and give us some help, but it doesn’t seem that way :(. They could really help with names.

Mrtn, some extra mountains surrounding the one in particular, wouldn't hurt.

I think, as far as culture goes if you cant 'build' a dragons lair, then it would just get destroyed (disappears) if in the radius.

And even then the Dragon still remains, for someone to have to attack, if we give it a bombard range of 2 and blitz (movement of 3 and immobile). It should also still act as a threat, although not over the large amount of range as an dragon lair would give it (good name for the airfield Celeborn). Representing the decline of power in the ages.

Should Dwarves be able to build cities in mountains? We can give them a tech they start out with, thats not in the tech tree so no one can research it, that allows them to see resources that other cant?!?! making it only good for them to be by a mountain. But could they sell it??? (thanks for teaching me that Yoda, the force is strong with this one ;) )

Another thing, should the units Start out Superior for the elves?!?! And then gradually get worse? Would the AI still upgrade them, maybe if they were cheaper in shields but not in population?

Originally posted by Celeborn
i will start looking into get hosting from strategyplanet (like the starwars mod) but first we need content...

If they ask for a template of the site, I'll let you guys use the one for the Star Wars mod, which was made by nEo. With some changes, you could have you're own custom site relatively quickly.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Ages, Ages, Ages, we need to think of some names people!

I also recommend the MOD team ( are we a team yet ;) ) start reading the Silmarillion again if your schedule permits. I was hoping some people who knew it very well, or even just a little would come in and give us some help, but it doesn’t seem that way :(. They could really help with names.

Mrtn, some extra mountains surrounding the one in particular, wouldn't hurt.

I think, as far as culture goes if you cant 'build' a dragons lair, then it would just get destroyed (disappears) if in the radius. Is this how it works in the ordinary game?

Originally posted by PCHighway
Should Dwarves be able to build cities in mountains? We can give them a tech they start out with, thats not in the tech tree so no one can research it, that allows them to see resources that other cant?!?! making it only good for them to be by a mountain. But could they sell it??? (thanks for teaching me that Yoda, the force is strong with this one ;) )
All the AIs would still "see" those resources, and build cities nearby.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Another thing, should the units Start out Superior for the elves?!?! And then gradually get worse? Would the AI still upgrade them, maybe if they were cheaper in shields but not in population?
This is contrary to what is usual, so the AI would probably treat this really badly. And if it is a player, he just wouldn't upgrade his units. Cheating is easy.

No offense, but I am going to test those ideas before I write them off just yet ;). And yes, that is how they work, to my knowledge, but then again... Maybe the air units get destroyed like when a city is taken? Note to self, make sure we don't make it an air unit, just give it air abilities. And if they AI doesn't like that, we just have to suffer with the Culture destroying it, but I think its just the Air units 0 def. that makes them get killed.

I just thought of something. The first age mostly took place in Beleriand, right? (Or was it the second age? I've only read the Silmarillion once.) Beleriand sank into the sea! That's not good, map wise.

About the dragons, here's an idea I've had for awhile:

Make a dragon unit the equivalent of a Tactical Nuke. No, seriously, it could work this way. Dragons were too rare and much too powerful to be used as any sort of ordinary unit, and they were never under the control of anyone other than Morgoth (and even then they were more inclined to serve only themselves; Glaurung always had a large degree of autonomy, and after the sacking of Nargothrond he hoarded up all of the treasure and laid in the middle of the hall).

Since dragons 1) were very untrustworthy 2) were inherently evil 3) were much to powerful to be defeated by any ordinary unit and 4) could lay waste to large areas (i.e. Dale) Dragons really could use the "Nuclear Weapon" flag. They should be very expensive, more so than some wonders, so they won't be built often. They should have a slow movement, and a high range. Then, when they attack, they fly up into the air, back down, and circle once or twice around the nine target squares, breathing fire. Once they've done this, they fly off to parts unknown, probably to hoard some treasure. :) In their wake they leave ash (pollution) all over the place, which must be cleaned up to make the terrain inhabitable again. Oh, and they burn down any jungle or forest and scorch grasslands to praries and praries to desert. Once a dragon is used other civs immediately become angry, reflecting the fact that they recognize that only a truly evil race would use such creatures. :)

This really would work, the only problem would be finding someone willing to animate this. The only problem would be that dragons could be destroyed or captured by anyone, but I don't think it's too big of a problem.

Also excessive dragon use would cause global warming, which although slightly inaccurate doesn't (in my opinion) cause too much trouble.

GEChallenger, I think that the AI would start to hoard dragons. :( And once someone started to use dragons, everyone would. To quote Han Solo; I've a bad feeling about this. Not saying it's a bad idea, just a bad AI.
I think that a lot of the really powerful units shouldn't be possible to build in ordinary ways.

Yes, I was worried that that would happen. :( But maybe such a high price would discourage too many being built? Perhaps they could even cost pop points. I still think it’s worth a shot, even if it’s a long one.

Anyway, I think that we probably need to start coming up with something concrete right now. We should probably first hammer out a list of civs, cities, and culture groups. That's the “easiest” part.

I've always thought that there should be the following sixteen civs:

The Shire
The Khazâd
Gondor
Arnor
Dale
Rohan
Númenór
Umbar
Harad
Rhûn
Isengard
Angmar
Mordor
Lothlörien
Mirkwood
Eregion

Since only five culture groups are allowed, and all that they really do are determine what the cities, palaces, and citizens look like, these culture groups should be based off of the five main races. Those are:

Hobbits (The Shire)
Dwarves (The Khazad)
Men (Gondor, Arnor, Numenor, Dale, Rohan, Harad, Rhun, Umbar)
Orcs (Isengard, Mordor, Angmar)
Elves (Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Eregion)

I know that the hobbit and dwarf group will only have one civ apiece, both should have architecture and citizens that are different from the others.

(Actually, Men should probably be split into a Dunedain (Arnor, Gondor, Numenor, Umbar), Northmen (Rohan, Dale), and Barbarian (Harad, Rhun)groups (I forget the terms used for the Northmen and Barbarians). Elves likewise should be split into Noldor (Eregion) and Teleri (I believe that's what the "wood elves" are called) (Lothlorien, Mirkwood). However, this can't be the case. With (alot) of luck Conquests will allow us to add culture groups.)

The biggest problem will be finding city names. The Shire, Gondor, and maybe Rohan, Eregion, and Mordor won't be too hard. (I've already got a list of Shire and Gondorian cities). That's why certain civs should be combined.

Eregion would be a combination of Eregion, under Celebrimbor, and Lhun, under Gil-Galad. Also included would be Imladris.

The Shire is, of course, the Shire, with the addition of Buckland and Bree.

Rhun represents all Eastern tribes (there were several). Harad likewise represents Southron tribes exluding Umbar. Umbar represents the Black Numenorians and later Corsairs.

The Khazad is a combination of all dwarf cities and houses. The Dwarves were simply never widespread or powerful enough to warrent separate civs.

Isengard should include Dunland. Angmar includes the Northern Orcs, whose capital in The Hobbit was Mount Gundabad. Dale will include Esgaroth.

Gondor, Arnor, Numenor, Mordor, Mirkwood, and Lothlorien are all pretty self-explanatory.

So there’s my take on it. I would use Barbarians to represent non-sentient (or at least non-civilized) creatures such as spiders and other things that go bump in the night.

And about not having certain civs in the beginning, I really don’t think that that’s too much of an issue. I’m perfectly OK with having Americans in 1400 BC and Celts in 2025 AD, because (the way I see it) it’s just a game. So I would be perfectly OK with playing as the Shire in F.A. 65 and Numenor in T.A. 3019. I wouldn’t handicap any civs at all. I think that some (but ONLY some) creative license is necessary.

I would NOT, however, include civs featured only in the Silmarillion. In my opinion they’re too sketchy, too powerful, and too “mythological” to be included in this sort of mod.

So what do you all think? Is this a good plan of action (civs first, then everything else)? Good list of civs, or not?

Here’s what I have city-wise so far. Obviously quite a few more need to be added to every one of these, probably the way mrtn did with the Dwarf cities.
I made these lists awhile ago based off of the maps, so they’re more than a little sketchy. Also not all of these are really cities; some are towers or “points of interest.”

The Shire
Hobbiton
Buckland
Tuckborough
Bywater
Overhill
Frogmorton
Whitfurrows
Stock
Bag-End
Nobottle
Scary
Willowbottom
Bree

The Khazâd


Gondor
Minas Tirith
Osgiliath
Dol Amroth
Minas Ithil
Belfalas
Lossarnach
Morthond
Lamedon
Pinnath Gelin
Emyn Arnen

Arnor
Annuminas
Fornost

Dale
Dale
Esgaroth

Rohan
Edoras
Helm's Deep
Dunharrow

Númenór
Armenelos
If anyone has a copy of Unfinished Tales (mine sorta fell apart) there are a number of other cities, citadels, and places of interest listed in Part II (I think).

Umbar
City of the Corsairs

Harad
Who knows? I’ve never seen any Haradrim cities mentioned. I don’t even know who their leader should be.

Rhûn
Another “Who knows?” I don’t know who their leader should be either. Maybe Khamûl, the second most powerful Nazgûl? He was an Easterling, and must have been a powerful one to be chosen by Sauron.

Isengard
Orthanc
Dunland

Angmar
Cairn Dûm
Gundabad

Mordor
Barad-dur
Minas Morgul
Sammath Naur
Cirith Ungol
Nurnen
Dol Guldur

Lothlörien
Caras Galadhon

Mirkwood
The Elven King’s Halls? I don’t even know if they had a real name. Or if there are any cities worth mentioning in Mirkwood. Or should it be called Greenwood the Great?

Eregion
Imladris
Lindon


And lastly, I want to mention that leaderheads for this should probably be static but if possible 3-D. It would also probably be best if they were all made by the same person. I would like to see some that aren’t based off the movie too, if possible. :)

Who’s in charge here, by the way? It seems that either Celeborn or PCHighway is mostly “mediating” the thread, with some input form mrtn. Or is everyone equal? :D

I think you mean Númenórë not, Beleriand ;).

Númenórë
http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/Mapr3t_M69.jpg


Beleriand
http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/Mapr3t_M27.jpg

On the plus side I map site, you can find it found a damn good map site, you can find it here (http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/Mapr3t_M69.jpg).

GEChallenger-
It’s all about the graphics ;). No, I like your idea, but it gives a sort of ‘intangible’ feel to Dragons. It is a possiblity, but I am not one to rule it out. I do like the prospect of mrtns other ideas a little bit more, making you need a hero to destroy it, and making it last longer, to cause havoc. Perhaps two breeds of Dragons can be made? Or even, we can name each one, and they upgrade to a stronger one? We will have to see how and what conquests adds. I wouldn’t say Dragons are so ‘impossible’ to control either. Here is a quote that took forever to find:

“But Túrin passed away on the northward road, and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his master. Then he turned to his own pleasure...”

Orders come first eh ;).

Beleriand did sink into the sea, in the War of Wrath at the very end of the First Age. Numenor sank into the sea in the Second Age. :)

Orders come first eh ;).

I guess so. :D

:eek: Nice list GEC! But I have question about the Númenórë, I'll check out the book anyway. Gondor and Arnor sort of take over for Númenórë, though. I think there is some talk about the Easterlings somewhere... I'll look for it, check out this (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) site in the meantime, and take a look at that old thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10998&) I was talking about (Don't Post in it!). I am sort of tired, so I will give you more feedback on the list tomorrow. everyones equal, Celeborn is going to put together the main version though. Also, Hobbits? Come one now, I can think of a better 5th culture group!?!? It is only one Civ, with the exception of the Dwarves (who could have two or three civs if we wanted, and are more distinct) We'll lets leave the fifth blank for now, if we get more hobbit units, then we should go for it, maybe even in a later version\patch type thing. The hobbits will get many ‘man’ hand me downs either way, but having ‘man’ units and being a different culture group seems a little pointless, IMHO.

[EDIT- Are you sure about Beleriand? I thought it's defeat spawned Lindon into a great 'city-state' type thing?]

Originally posted by PCHighway
:eek: Nice list GEC! Thanks. It could be better, though. :)

Originally posted by PCHighway
But I have question about the Númenórë, I'll check out the book anyway. Gondor and Arnor sort of take over for Númenórë, though.

True. The Numenorian Realms-in-Exile are really pretty much the same as a transplanted Numenor. I generally think of Gondor and Arnor as being sort of like the Byzantine Empire was to the Roman Empire; a smaller but nevertheless powerful successor to a glorious old empire.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Also, Hobbits? Come one now, I can think of a better 5th culture group!?!? It is only one Civ, with the exception of the Dwarves (who could have two or three civs if we wanted, and are more distinct) We'll lets leave the fifth blank for now, if we get more hobbit units, then we should go for it, maybe even in a later version\patch type thing. The hobbits will get many ‘man’ hand me downs either way, but having ‘man’ units and being a different culture group seems a little pointless, IMHO.

I know, I know. :p I was sort of thinking of The Shire as the equivalent to the Iroquois or the Zulu; a relatively minor civ that was never hugely powerful. In-game, though, they can be alot stronger than they were historically. I rather like the idea, though I guess they could be just as easily lumped with Men.

If this is the case, then I'd use the empty fifth culture group as another human one, that way you could have Numenor, Gondor, Arnor, and Umbar together and Dale, Rohan, Harad, and Rhun together-- although Harad should probably have a more African look.

I guess Dwarves could have several civs, but I think the best way to go about this is to have a single civ represent all dwarves, just as the Iroquois are supposed to represent all North American indians.

EDIT:

[EDIT- Are you sure about Beleriand? I thought it's defeat spawned Lindon into a great 'city-state' type thing?]

The coming of the Valar into the world and their subsequent war on Morgoth pretty much ruined all of Beleriand, which sank beneath the sea. When the remnant of the Noldar, led by Gil-Galad, entered Middle-Earth they settled on the Gulf of Lhun, which was a close as they could get to Beleriand.

The Blue Mountains that run through the Lhun region are the same as the Blue Mountains that run along the extreme eastern part (and I believe a little to the south) of the Beleriand map in The Silmarillion. I don't have any of these maps on hand, though. I don't have the Silmarillion with me now, either so I could be wrong.

Originally posted by GEChallenger
Yes, I was worried that that would happen. :( But maybe such a high price would discourage too many being built? Perhaps they could even cost pop points. I still think it’s worth a shot, even if it’s a long one. I think that the AI is hard wired to think : Ah, nukes! Build, build, build! It would just ruin its production in the process.

Originally posted by GEChallenger
Anyway, I think that we probably need to start coming up with something concrete right now. We should probably first hammer out a list of civs, cities, and culture groups. That's the “easiest” part.

I've always thought that there should be the following sixteen civs:

The Shire
The Khazâd
Gondor
Arnor
Dale
Rohan
Númenór
Umbar
Harad
Rhûn
Isengard
Angmar
Mordor
Lothlörien
Mirkwood
Eregion

Since only five culture groups are allowed, and all that they really do are determine what the cities, palaces, and citizens look like, these culture groups should be based off of the five main races. Those are:

Hobbits (The Shire)
Dwarves (The Khazad)
Men (Gondor, Arnor, Numenor, Dale, Rohan, Harad, Rhun, Umbar)
Orcs (Isengard, Numenor, Umber)
Elves (Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Eregion)

I know that the hobbit and dwarf group will only have one civ apiece, both should have architecture and citizens that are different from the others. Do we really need all those 16 civs? I might be an infidel, but I don't think that quantity equals quality. I suppose that Orcs (Numenor, Umber), should be Orcs(Mordor, Angmar)? Should we really have both Gondor, Arnor AND Numenor. Should Dale really be a complete civ? Likewise with Umbar? Umbar could probably be lumped together with the Southrons. 13 good civs are better than 13 good and 3 bad civs.
Oh, and please don't spell it Lothlörien. As a Swede I'm very sensitive to dots. To me this sounds as a country bumpkin talking.
Originally posted by GEChallenger
...I would NOT, however, include civs featured only in the Silmarillion. In my opinion they’re too sketchy, too powerful, and too “mythological” to be included in this sort of mod.
I agree.
Originally posted by GEChallenger
...Gondor
Minas Tirith
Osgiliath
Dol Amrath
Minas Ithil
Belfalas
Lossarnach
Morthond
Lamedon
Pinnath Gelin
Emyn Arnen
Isn't it Dol Amroth?
The following city lists (I know they are not finalized) underscores that we should think about merging more civs.
Originally posted by GEChallenger
...And lastly, I want to mention that leaderheads for this should probably be static but if possible 3-D. It would also probably be best if they were all made by the same person. I would like to see some that aren’t based off the movie too, if possible. :)

Who’s in charge here, by the way? It seems that either Celeborn or PCHighway is mostly “mediating” the thread, with some input form mrtn. Or is everyone equal? :D
Sween32 has made some leaderheads already. He might do more, and we should be able to use some from the game.

For now, it seems that we're all first among equals. :) But, talk is cheep, when we start doing something, that might change. :D


I meant Beleriand, as GeChallenger realised.

I agree with you about the Dwarves, and the hobbits ;). If you think it is necessary a Númenór civ would be sort of fun. What we do have a problem with though, is the Elves, perhaps we should add some more Civs? Can't go wrong with Rivendel ;). I could think of some others of course. We can have 32 civs, and adding some under-dog civs that exist just for a fun twist, such as the rangers, wouldn't be a problem to add in a future version, but not top priority. Did you see the edit of my last post? Did you look at that thread? Sween32 might remember, he had some pretty bizarre idea, what with ravens and airplanes :). It's not such a bad idea though, a raven could be a scout for Isengard.

I agree with Mrtn, especially about the Ancient civs you brought up... such as the Númenór;).

However Isn’t that the way Tolkien spelled it? What about the other words he uses with ‘dots’. mrtn- But, talk is cheep, when we start doing something, that might change. Probably not :p If it does, we should get on our knees and start worshiping Kindred now.

Thanks for the description of Beleriand, GEChallenger. But that points out a problem, should it be a Gulf on the Map, or otherwise? Moreover, just how much sank, I’ll have to take a look at that map site again.

Less Civs? Perhaps, but adding 3 more civs is not going to reduce the quality of any others, or the ones being added. But, we should probably start with as little as we can, add on as we go.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...However Isn’t that the way Tolkien spelled it? What about the other words he uses with ‘dots’. .... But, we should probably start with as little as we can, add on as we go.

The index of names in the silmarillion (english version) has it as Lothlórien. And believe me, I have way more experience than you in reading å, ä and ö. :)
I only remember Tolkien having ¨over ï and ë.

And I agree about the "work our way up" strategy.

Agreed, Mrtn.

On a side note, Celeborn, I have made a lot of title screens (change every week :lol: ) and back when I had downloaded Eclipse mod (and then later Nobby's) I had made this one. I Could put together a new one to take some slack of your back, but you have created the intro, and probably would know best what to use. If you do, I highly recommend downloading 'ringbearer font'.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LOTRtitle2.jpg

The screen shot is really shrunk, can't even make out the giant eagle in the inner picture, thats do to upload size restraints :).
[EDIT- New Pic]
It's sort of noobish, for instance I called it 'Lord of the Rings' which brings up the point, what are we going to call the MOD?

That looks very nice, but I think we shuold first make skeleton of game, then worry about details. Will this be strictly LOTR game, or Silmarillion game, or mabe both (there are four ages in Tolkien books, and there are four eras in Civ3)

Originally posted by Doc M
That looks very nice, but I think we shuold first make skeleton of game, then worry about details. Will this be strictly LOTR game, or Silmarillion game, or mabe both (there are four ages in Tolkien books, and there are four eras in Civ3)
I think we have agreed to make the fourth age the future era. And just because there are four eras in original civ doesn't mean we have to use four eras, we can easily use just three.

I think that we should only base it on the second and third ages. This means that we can't have a Eregion civ, but it also mean that we don't have to worry about a Beleriand map. (And we can give some of Eregions city names to the other elves:))

Nice screenie! I can see the Eagle.

I had done that waaaay long ago, when I was playing a different LotR Mod (Eclipse'), I didn't spend time to make another one:).

Yes, as Mrtn says, we have decided to start around the coming of men, or sightly before. When technically Men weren't existent at this point, but very soon they would come into being, and start their migration from the East to the West. We should have Four era’s. Divide the 3rd or 2nd into two ages.

I agree about getting the framework started, lets center our thoughts around the 'Men' culture group first, as they will be the easiest to gather units for first.

1. Main Defender. Perhaps Kinboats Germanic Spearman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49914&)? probably act as a equivalent to the regular Civ3 spearmen.

2. Main attacker. Swordsman? I’m somewhat at a loss for this one.

3. Archer unit 1. We’ll... I was thinking the Archer would do it, and the Heavy Bowman for the elves first line.

1b. Main defender upgrade??? The 'European Spearmen (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4856)' should do it. This was made by utahjazz7.

2b. Main Attacker upgrade. Lets be honest, we can’t use the Macemen (PtW Medieval Infantry) till the last techs, and only then if we felt it fit with the ‘LotR’ universe. So what should we use here? What else but utahjazz7's European Swordsman :).

3b. Archer upgrade? Maybe the Longbowman? Or Kinboats Woodsman\Robin Hood?

I’ll stop here, we need two more to keep things interesting IMO, but just how advanced should we be at the end of the third age? Civ3 Pikemen?

Haven’t' thought about cavalry yet.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...1. Main Defender. Perhaps Kinboats Germanic Spearman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49914&)? probably act as a equivalent to the regular Civ3 spearmen.

2. Main attacker. Swordsman? I’m somewhat at a loss for this one.

3. Archer unit 1. We’ll... I was thinking the Archer would do it, and the Heavy Bowman for the elves first line.

1b. Main defender upgrade??? The 'European Spearmen (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4856)' should do it. This was made by utahjazz7.

2b. Main Attacker upgrade. Lets be honest, we can’t use the Macemen (PtW Medieval Infantry) till the last techs, and only then if we felt it fit with the ‘LotR’ universe. So what should we use here? What else but utahjazz7's European Swordsman :).

3b. Archer upgrade? Maybe the Longbowman? Or Kinboats Woodsman\Robin Hood?

I’ll stop here, we need two more to keep things interesting IMO, but just how advanced should we be at the end of the third age? Civ3 Pikemen?

Haven’t' thought about cavalry yet.

I think that the Germanic Spearman should be an upgrade from the European Spearman. And not the other way around. :)
And the Easterners and Southrons should build Numids as flavour units.

I don't really like the Archer, as he has too few clothes. The Babylonian Bowman is better, IMO.

<rant>
I think the use of archers as offensive and spearmen as defensive units is ridicoulous. If you're armed with a stick and sinew arrangement, do you run forward and try to shoot someone, or do you stay hidden, and let them cross that open field? On the other hand, if you have a shield and armor, you might try to cross that field. In my mind archers have always been defensive. </rant>

So, if I can't convince you, then at least I want this easily modded, so I can change it myself. And I feel that the great elven archers are defenders of the elven forests, they don't rush out and conquer.

And about cavalry I think most of it can be made with flavour units. The Wain Riders (Easterners) has the chariot or the war chariot as UU. The Norman Knight is a great Rohirrim. Gondor, at least, should have knights (from Dol Amroth :)). The Elephant as a Southron Oliphaunt.

I agree, but the Germanic Spearmen looks more 'barbaric' even if he looks more advanced... Is that possible :)? Should we use the '0' bombardment for archers as well? And just How will we use Kinboats High Elven Spearmen? The elves need a ‘light’ archer unit before the heavily armored one also. Lets try and work out the Men first, then go on to the elves ;). We need some definitive blueprints, right now we are all over the place.

Lets try it this way.

Men
First Era-
1a.European Spearmen (utahjazz7) Name: Edain militia ???
2a.Tribal Warrior (Yaniv)
3a. Babylonian Bowman (Civ3) Name: Archer\Bowman

Second Era-
1b.Germanic Spearmen (Kinboat) Name: Spearman
2b.Swordsman (Civ3) Name: Swordsman
3b.Longbowman (Civ3) Name: Light bowman

Third Era-
1c. Halberdier- (JimmyH) Name: Pikeman
2c. European Swordsman (utahjazz7) Name: Light Swordsman
3c. Robin Hood (Kinboat): Long Bowman

Fourth Era-
1d. Pikemen (Civ3)? Name: Armored Pikemen
2d.Scottish Warrior (Kindred) Name: Two Handed Swordsman
3d.?? This is where the line is in trouble, in DyP there is (or was?) An alternative archer, maybe Kal-El will let us use that for an earlier one :). If not, lets put JimmyH’s Skirmisher for the first archer. And that would upgrade to the Babylonian Bowman.

Ok, I know what your thinking about the Tribal warrior. But hear me out, I can’t find any good medieval swordsman later, I would rather have two barbaric unit when the Men weren’t really powerful, than a out of place (Mace Man\medieval Infantry) later on.

I think that is pretty good for a basic Line, we might want to give Gondor some more ‘advanced’ early units. Maybe let them have the Longswordsman (JH) for a Swordsman\Light Swordsman replacement? Unless someone has a qualm about this, lets try and get the stats down today.

Middle Earth: Lord of the Mods ;)

i could perhaps use your title screen, but then i'll just need a button less version to work with...

oh and one more thing...

DAMN you and all your long posts, it takes to long for me to read through all of them :(

but anyway...

I agree with the idea of building the civs up slowly and the most logical to start with (ie easiest) is the Men civs...

tpasmall, that would be good if you can give us the template of your site...

I agree, but the Germanic Spearmen looks more 'barbaric' even if he looks more advanced... Is that possible ?
He looks bigger and stronger.

Do we really need three units per era? What would be their roles? One attacker, one defender, and?

The Archers should be: Archer (Babylonian), Bowman (Robin Hood) and Longbowman. The Longbowman looks more advanced than Robin. The last archer can be a crossbowman (AoE).

The Swordsmen also need better names. Light Swordsman sound kinda sissy, why not call him Fat Free Swordsman? :lol:
And calling someone Two Handed implies that everyone else only has one hand.
We can use the Berserk instead of the Tribal Warrior, the swordsmen line don't have to use swords all of them.
Maybe like this: Swordsman, Berserk, European, Scot. With better names, obviously.

And it seems funny to call the Halberdier a pikeman, when he doesn't have a pike. Why not call him Halberdier?

Gondorian UU= Gondorian Gaurd

more powererfull on defence...

LoL, sorry about that :lol:. But theres a lot to talk about, We should probably limit the pages to 10 then start a new thread, it will get to hard for someone to jump right in, as you can see it is already. And then you can simply quote what we have done and put it in your new first post, so they have all the information there. Or I can type of a guideline post and send it to you if you want.

About this site, I demand we have a thread going on here, or no one will here about us, and I also demand the Full Mod be upload here, it is only fair.

I Have some other Pic's I can send you, along with the Logo. It shouldn’t be to ahrd to find the font, though, just do a search for 'Lord of the Rings Fonts' on google, probably more than just the one I used. You want me to e-mail you the title Screens? It will be a big file.

hmmm... if you can send me the gudline post it would be good...

how big would the title screen be be(file size)?

of course it will be uploaded and there will be a thread here as well... we need feed back on how to improve it... Beta Testers in a way...

and know a question... can you set the likely hood of a recourse appearing on a random map (ie. so that there are most likely no more than 10 intances of the recource on a huge map)

Originally posted by PCHighway
LoL, sorry about that :lol:. But theres a lot to talk about, We should probably limit the pages to 10 then start a new thread, it will get to hard for someone to jump right in, as you can see it is already. And then you can simply quote what we have done and put it in your new first post, so they have all the information there. Or I can type of a guideline post and send it to you if you want.

About this site, I demand we have a thread going on here, or no one will here about us, and I also demand the Full Mod be upload here, it is only fair...
Agreed, on both things. I want to stay here as long as possible, actually I don't really see the need for an extern site.

Not gonna do it :P. There is no mention of crossbows anywhere in LotR, it makes us make an entire new reality for the last era, which is unacceptable. The skirmisher is a better idea :p.

Archers (for men) should be a cheaper unit, that has good attack, and stellar defense with 10+ of them. If you think 3 unit lines is a lot wait till we bring in the cavalry ;). It won’t be the same way with any other race, but the main idea is a unit with good movement (cav) a good offensive infantry (stronger than cav) a good defensive unit (spearman line) and another unique unit, that offers good bonuses and keeps it realistic (archer). If you don’t want to have unit lines, we can just randomly introduce new ‘specialist\flavor units at will. I suppose the Beserker can’t really be used as a Dwarven unit, but I was thinking along those lines. Why call him Pikemen? Because they actually didn’t come into being until the renaissance, the AoK unit can pass for a Pikemen easily, you can’t see the jagged iron ‘stems’ that they halberdier is supposed to have.
Again, Two-Handed was fine, as AoK\EE\ and numerous other games call the units that, if you don’t like it, we can change it, but it is unnecessary. Remember, I am not putting this mod together, so stop asking me permission ;).

That reminds me, Celeborn, this is going to be for PtW right?
Good idea about the longbowmen though ;).

Originally posted by PCHighway
Probably not :p If it does, we should get on our knees and start worshiping Kindred now.

You can't do that, heck, I can't even make a "favorite unit creator" list. :p ;) :D

It's to late! I already started

Everyone mentioned you in the thread, I think you just slipped the thread starters mind for a moment.

yeah ptw would be the port for the mod until conquest comes out...

i think i can get PtW next week so it would be all good :D

mrtn i think we need an external site, mainly for organizing the various files...

IMHO it should go like this.
Conscript 3 HP
Regular 4 HP
Veteran 6 HP
Elite 7 HP
Making it all the difference if you have a well trained army (barracks).

Men
First Era-
1a.European Spearmen (utahjazz7) Name: Edain militia
I was thinking of giving this unit 3 defense and 1 attack. 1 movement, yet it gets 1 extra Hp.

2a.Tribal Warrior (Yaniv)
1 Defense, 2 Attack. 1 Movement. 0HP bonus.

3a. Bowman (DyP graphics?) OR Skirmisher (JH)
2 Defense 2 attack, 1 movement. -1 HP - Bombard strength of 2\ Rate of Fire 2\ B. range of 0.

Second Era-
1b.Germanic Spearmen (Kinboat) Name: Spearman
Defense of 4 attack of 1, 1 movement gets 2 extra HP.

2b.Swordsman? (Civ3) Name: Beserker
Defense of 2, attack of 4, movement of 1, 0HP bonus.

3b.Babylonian Bowman (Civ3). Name: Archer
Defense of 3, and attack of 3 AND 1 movement. -1HP bonus.
Bombard strength of 3\ Rate of Fire 2\ Bombard range of 0.


Third Era-
1c. Halberdier- (JimmyH) Name: Pikeman (?)
Defense 5. Attack 2. Movement 1. 2HPbonus

2c. European Swordsman (utahjazz7) Name: Swordsman
Defense of 2. Attack of 5. Movement of 1. 0HP bonus.

3c.Robin Hood (Kinboat): Name: Composite Archer?
Defense of 4. Attack of 4. Movement 1 0HP bonus.
Bombard strength of 5\ Rate of Fire 2\ Bombard range of 0.

Fourth Era-

1d. Pikemen (Civ3)? Name: Armored Pikemen
Defense of 6. Attack of 3. Movement of 1. 3HP bonus.

2d.Scottish Warrior (Kindred) Name: Two Handed Swordsman
Defense of 2. Attack of 7. 0HP bonus. 1 movement.

3d.Longbowman (Civ3) Name: Longbowman
Defense of 5. Attack of 5. Movement 1 0HP bonus.
Bombard strength of 6\ Rate of Fire 3\ Bombard range of 0.


Mrtn, I can understand that you want archers to be the main defenders, but don’t forget, it would look funny to see a sole archer defending a city, they always had a group of swordsmen\pikemen infront of the archers, if they didn’t the archers would be mincemeat. You may think it is insane for a 100 of infantry to run at 100 archers. But it happened all the time, arrows can NOT go through platemail, only crossbows bolts can do that. Archers can be extremely effective if defended by a spearmen group, and this is how I based my stats. With a Bombard rate of 2 and range of 0, that means that if a unit attacks a city, which is defended by an archer and a spearman, the archer would fire two shots, (each as powerful as his attack) before the unit could even get a shot at attacking the spearmen. Just like a catapult does in normal civ3. I think this is realistic, but I await your criticism :). Remember, it is only a draft, I expect it to be changed based on your opinions.

Cavalry shouldn’t be as strong as infantry. Perhaps 1 less attack (with the exception of Rohan), but 3 movement with blitz? I have to think about it.

I have been following this thread somewhat and have now decided to step in and offer my comments on several relatively current issues.

CivIII/PTW/Wait for Conquests: Make the mod on PTW, then make the scenarios after Conquests comes out.

Ages?: 1st-4th.

Strength of Elves: The Elves should start out with higher HP than all other races, but as time goes on, their HP and stats just stay the same, while all the other's races stats go up.

Reading the Silm: I keep my copies of LotR and the Silm in a handy drawer next to the computer, and have read the Silm three times, LotR 6 times.

Civs and UUs: We don't need 16! We just need the main divisions...
Noldor: Elven Swordsman
Fëanorian Noldor: Elven Riders
Nandor: Elven Ranger
Sindar: Elven Archers
Rohan: Lancer
Gondorians: Gondorian Defender
Arnor(ians?): Protectors
Numenorians: Legions of Numenorë
Dwarves of Khazad-Dum: Dwarven Axe-Thrower
Dwarves of Belegost: Dwarven Axeman
Hobbits: Hobbit Slinger
Orcs of Mordor: Olog-Hai
Orcs of Utummno: Balrog
Dunlendings: Berzerker
Southrons: Oliaphaunt
Isengard: Warg-rider

Other units: I may end up correcting and/or suggesting unit titles
and/or stats, but I will just STAY AWAY from animations.

I like your civ list :), but I dislike how you call it the 'Orcs of Mordor'. I think our main idea was to have all the evil civs as one (Mordor\Mordyr), except Isengard and the Evil-Men (which you left out btw). And I don't remember anything exceptional about the Orcs of Moria, nor do I remember so many as there were in the movie. If this MOD will include the all the ages, it would be very strange giving the Orcs of Moria the UU balrog. IMHO.

Glad to see some new blood though :goodjob:!
Arg!:( Must I always be at the start of a new page?

[EDIT- I really should have said evil Orcs, and not 'all evil Civs']

Isengard? OOPS! This will be added immediately!

I was just thinking about all the Orc civs, I had thought about Moria before. I like the idea about Elves and I also like how it is very doable :). Are you sure you don't think we shouldn't combine Orcs of Utummno And Orcs of Mordor? My idea was to make the warg rider a calvary for all Mordor and Isengard, what do you think?

Originally posted by PCHighway
IMHO it should go like this.
Conscript 3 HP
Regular 4 HP
Veteran 6 HP
Elite 7 HP
Making it all the difference if you have a well trained army (barracks).
OK.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...You may think it is insane for a 100 of infantry to run at 100 archers... I think this is realistic, but I await your criticism :). Remember, it is only a draft, I expect it to be changed based on your opinions.
You misunderstand me. I think it would be insane for 100 archers to rush at 100 infantry. :crazyeye: I'm approaching this argument from the other direction; archers should be defensive, which means that spearmen get to be offensive (in an ordinary game).

I think you should give the attackers better defense, and the defenders better attack.
The difference between a swordsman with a shield and a spearman with a shield is just the weapon. It shouldn't be so important that a swordsman get 4/2/1 and a spearman 1/4/1.

What about this?
Spearman 2/4/1
Berserker 4/3/1

Pikeman 3/5/1
Swordsman 5/4/1

Armored Pikeman (Keep it in singular form) 4/6/1
Two Handed Swordsman 7/3(!)/1

Originally posted by PCHighway
Cavalry shouldn’t be as strong as infantry. Perhaps 1 less attack (with the exception of Rohan), but 3 movement with blitz? I have to think about it.

3 move + blitz sounds too powerful.

2 movement+blitz should be good for cavalry...

oh and by the way, Noldodan, Welcome to our little LotR thread...

rohan might instead then have the same attack as other cavalry but have the extra movement?

Thanks for the feedback, I like it, and I get where your going with the archers (Finally!). Should I keep the archer stats the same? I Really didn't want so high an attack (or defense) for the archers, shall we lower that by one each, and add to the Rate of Fire or bombard strength?

Cavalry:
What if I gave them -2 HP? Or would you rather I just reduce their movement to 2?

Infantry:
I get where your going now, but I couldn't help but wonder why the hell anyone would attack with a defensive (spearman) unit :). Does this make it not to much of a difference for the units, a bad thing?


My typo brings up something though. Should we have a later age tech that allows for ‘armys’ (in this case MF units) to be built. It would only be one for each civs main UU or a unit they were known for. Sort of like 2 War elephants, or the Dunedain get a ‘horde’ of Beserkers. We would incorporate them right before the advance to the next main defender, so they wouldn’t be to useful, and wouldn’t be massed. They would get 1 extra attack (or defense, depending on the unit) and a significant boost in HP, and large costs.

Have you thought about the Sheild cost yet?

Good idea Celeborn (are we all on the same timezone or something :) ) We need to draw out the cav line first, though.

we're not in the same timzone but it would seem that we are at locations that alow us to be on at about the same time...

the "army" idea could work well, but then would we still have the proper civ army in as well?

I think that would be best. We could just call it 'beserker horde' Or something along those lines, IMHO.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Thanks for the feedback, I like it, and I get where your going with the archers (Finally!). Should I keep the archer stats the same? I Really didn't want so high an attack (or defense) for the archers, shall we lower that by one each, and add to the Rate of Fire or bombard strength? Nice that someone understands me :cry::crazyeye:
Yeah, that might be good to do.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Cavalry:
What if I gave them -2 HP? Or would you rather I just reduce their movement to 2?

Infantry:
I get where your going now, but I couldn't help but wonder why the hell anyone would attack with a defensive (spearman) unit :). Does this make it not to much of a difference for the units, a bad thing? Rather move 2. I think it's good that the attack and defense values are quite similar, this means that a swordsman attacking another swordsman sometimes win, and sometimes loose.



Originally posted by PCHighway
My typo brings up something though. Should we have a later age tech that allows for ‘armys’ (in this case MF units) to be built. It would only be one for each civs main UU or a unit they were known for. Sort of like 2 War elephants, or the Dunedain get a ‘horde’ of Beserkers. We would incorporate them right before the advance to the next main defender, so they wouldn’t be to useful, and wouldn’t be massed. They would get 1 extra attack (or defense, depending on the unit) and a significant boost in HP, and large costs.

Have you thought about the Sheild cost yet? I think that you should use only munits or no munits, a combination gets weird.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Good idea Celeborn (are we all on the same timezone or something :) ) We need to draw out the cav line first, though.
My location isn't Stockholm, Minnesota or something, it's Stockholm, Sweden :king:. So we're not on the same timezone. I'm just a night owl.

Damn, I thought I was on the same timezone of Lothlorien :lol:.

I sort of figured you were an insomniac mrtn, I can tell the signs from personal experience ;)... and the fact that there is no Stockholm\US. If we get the shield cost down, we will just have to copy this into the editor when we get to that point. To give a feeling of relation :confused: , the Civ3 spearman costs 2 shields, the warrior one and the archer 2.

Remember that ‘road\wheeled’ idea Yoda Power came up with? If he\we ever make it, we can put ‘immobile units’ in certain places, like that Giant Spider as Queen Shelob, for example.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Damn, I thought I was on the same timezone of Lothlorien :lol:.

I sort of figured you were an insomniac mrtn, I can tell the signs from personal experience ;)... and the fact that there is no Stockholm\US.

There is at least eleven (http://www.placesnamed.com/s/t/stockholm.asp) Stockholm in the US :D and Stockholm is the 39,118th most popular last name (surname) in the United States.
Didn't know that, did you? :lol:

Originally posted by PCHighway
If we get the shield cost down, we will just have to copy this into the editor when we get to that point. To give a feeling of relation :confused: , the Civ3 spearman costs 2 shields, the warrior one and the archer 2.

Remember that ‘road\wheeled’ idea Yoda Power came up with? If he\we ever make it, we can put ‘immobile units’ in certain places, like that Giant Spider as Queen Shelob, for example.
Unit cost should be decided when all the units are chosen. Do we want expensive Dwarf units? Cheap Orcs? And so on.

I see your point about the shield cost, and no, I had not idea about Stockholm MI. It figures though, 118th? Out of how many :p. And how can it be 'popular'? When did you get a choice, well, not many people change their last name anyway:D.

Well, you want to start on the Mordor\Isengard units? They should be relatively easy also. I'll be back with a list in a bit, we'll have to see what Noldodan thinks about the Civs again, he has some slightly different idea's. Should the Uruk Hai be only Isengard's units?

Defensive Infantry line-
1a. Orc Worker-Attack (Kindred) Name: Goblin Militia? I need ideas for this one.
1b. Goblin Spearman1 (embryodead) Name: Goblin Spearman
1c. Goblin Spearman2 (Kindred) Name: Orc Spearman
1d. Uruk-Hai Berserker (Kinboat) Name: Uruk Hai Spearman???

Offensive Infantry Line-
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion (embryodead) Name: Orc Warrior
2b. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axemen??
2c. Orc Warrior (embryodead seems to have a unhealthy fascination with Goblins;) to our benefit) Name: Orc Swordsman
2d. Uruk-Hai Warrior (Kinboat) Name: Uruk-Hai Swordsman

Archer Line-
3a.Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Bowman
3b. Black Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Archer
3c. Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Bowman
3d.Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Archer *

‘Cavalry’ Line-**
4a. Wolf Rider (embryodead) Name: Wolf rider
4c. Warg Rider (embryodead) Name: Warg rider


*
I was thinking of using the same animation for the Orc Archer, and the Orc Bowman, but still give a bonus, i.e. reason to upgrade them, and make sure they don’t run out of a archer line, something they are famous for. Another thing about archers, I think Goblin archers are should be more offensive than the Man\Elvish ones.

**
My idea for Cavalry, was to have the Wolf Rider go through the First-to-Second age. Then it would Upgrade to the Warg rider in the third age, who will take you the rest of the game.
Note, by ‘first’ ‘second’ and ‘third’ ages I just mean the order they come in, not insinuating we should have a fourth age. Are we going to have the First age labeled ‘The Arrival of man’ or what.

I’ll work out the stats tomorrow, mrtn had a good idea to use the snotling as a scout, should we do that? Or use Kindred’s ever popular Orc Worker, run and capture animations (my choice, a snotling is sort of un-LotR-esque. :) )

I think we should use the goblin worker as a worker. If we also use it as a warrior, wouldn't that be very confusing?
You forgot the Cave Troll (Kindred72)!
I propose we use that as the last defender, use the Uruk Hai Berserk as attacker, and use the Uruk Hai Warrior, as a sort of super unit, good on attack and defense and all as road. 5/5/1 maybe? I think we shouldn't only have these 'unit lines', we should have some units that are outside them.

And I think we could use the snotling renamed to Orc Scout.

My offensive line would be:
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion Name: Orc Warrior
2b. Orc Warrior Name: Orc Swordsman
2c. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axeman This looks meaner than the swordsman.
2d. Uruk Hai Berserker Name: Uruk Hai

I seriously think we should consider slimming these lines down to only three units. This leaves some units that can be used as alternatives, for if you don't have iron, or something. And we don't have to use four diffierent archers, that actually are the same unit. :eek: And we don't have to double animations, which never is good.

I agree with you there, I was sort of assuming the Cave Troll would be one of those outside units we had talked about. I suppose, but by slimming it down to three units per line, which one will go over two ages? Or are you thinking of cutting down the ages (which I disagree with). I'll revise it and get back to you in a hour, hopefully with stats (got business).

You can get the first unit in the first era, the second in the middle of the second and the third in the end of the third era, for example. I think we should only have four eras if we can fill them with relevant techs. "Empty" techs are just boring, in that case it is better to increase the tech cost.

Key: DEF\ATT\MOVE - HPB=Hit Point Bonus
I was thinking of giving them cheaper costs (half as much as men?) But have one less defense.
Defensive Infantry line-
1a-b.Goblin Spearman1 (embryodead) Name: Goblin Spearman
3\1\1 0HPB
If we give them the 0Bombard Range option, it may represent ‘mass & movement’. Not as good as the archers, and it would only work with more than 1 unit i.e.
IF-Bombard Strength 1 Range 0 and rate of fire 1.

1c.Goblin Spearman2 (Kindred) Name: Orc Spearman
4\2\1 +1HPB
IF-0 Bombard Range, Rate of Fire 1, Bombard strength 2.

1d. Cave Troll (Kindred) Name: Cave Troll (didn’t they turn to stone in sun?)
6\4\1 +3(?)HPB
IF- They shouldn’t have this ability, lets pass it on to the Orcs Main Offensive line in the last era.

Offensive Line-
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion Name: Orc Warrior
1\2\1 0HPB

2b. Orc Warrior Name: Orc Swordsman
2/3/1 0HPB

2c. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axeman\ “This looks meaner than the swordsman.”
3\5\1 0HPB

2d. Uruk Hai Berserker Name: Uruk Hai
4\6\1 0HPB
IF-0 Bombard Range, Rate of Fire 1, Bombard strength 3.

Archer line-
3a.Black Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Bowman
2\2\1 -1HPB
Bombard strength of 2\ Rate of Fire 2\ B. range of 0.

3b. Orc Archer color conversion(embryodead) Name: Orc Bowman
2\3\1 -1HPB
Bombard strength of 3\ Rate of Fire 2\ Bombard range of 0.

3c-d. Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Archer
3\5\1 ? - 0HPB
Bombard strength of 6\ Rate of Fire 3\ Bombard range of 0.

Cavalry Line-
4a-b. Wolf Rider (embryodead) Name: Wolf rider
2\2\2 -0HPB *blitz (*wheeled?)

4c-d. Warg Rider (embryodead) Name: Warg rider
3\4\2 +1HPB *blitz (*wheeled?)


MEN
The idea with this is to make Mordor and Men start with the same cav stats in the first age, and have slightly less than the Mordor cav in 3rd era (actually second age in LotR) but Men surpass by far in the fourth era (third age in LotR). Do you agree people?

Cavalry Line-
1a-b. Horseman (civ3) Name: Horseman
2\2\2 *Blitz

1c. Cavalry (Jimmyh)??? Name: Cavalry
2\3\2 0HPB *blitz

1d. Knight? (Civ3?) Name: Knight
4\5\2 +2HPB *blitz

The Evil Men (Dunlendings\Southrons?) will have the same as the other Men Lines stats (maybe slightly less in last era), except they will use different graphics, Tarkan (Jimmyh)for cavalry replacement and Cataphract(?) (JimmyH) Name: -?-

My thoughts anyway.

You do wrong! ;) Everyone else writes att/def/move. Bloody non-conformist. *mumble mumble* :p

The stats look good. I agree about the horses. Kinboat is making an awsome-looking Cataphract which hopefully will be finished soon. We could also use the Horse Archer by Kryten. Personally I'm not that fond of the AoK conversions. And of course the Oliphaunt as a knight-replacement for the southrons.

mrtn-
You do wrong! ;) Everyone else writes att/def/move. Bloody non-conformist. *mumble mumble* :p

The stats look good. I agree about the horses. Kinboat is making an awesome-looking Cataphract which hopefully will be finished soon. We could also use the Horse Archer by Kryten. Personally I'm not that fond of the AoK conversions. And of course the Oliphaunt as a knight-replacement for the southrons. Hah! I don't care how well you type English! You put *mumble mumble*! It should be *grumbles incoherently* or something along those lines. And damn straight, I'm not conforming anything you crazy Socialist you*grumbles incoherently about socialists* ;).

I think the AoE\K conversions look great... Except the cavalry, moves to much on default, but some are acceptable. Maybe we should start discussion of UU's and 'stand alone units' (SAU :lol: ) for Mordor\Isengard and the 'man' Civs. I was thinking the Oliphaunt could be a stand alone? What graphics, the standard Civ3 ones or AoK Elephant Archer\Rider? If they are stand alone we can include both, and get rid of Cavalry except the first era one, for them. As I don’t remember the Southrons using any cav in the books, only the Dunlendings.

Say that to my socialist friends, and they would laugh their pants off. :D
I don't like the Elephant archer. I don't get the point of why you would put a bow on top of a elephant. I say use the vanilla elephant.
And the Southrons get very little attention in the books, IIRC.

Nor would my republican friends:). But I am getting off topic, The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm) says Tolkien envisioned them as larger precursors to the modern elephant, or a smaller species. In the Return of the King (I can’t find my copy) they ‘Harad rallied around the Mûmakil’s in the battle of the Pelennor fields, like great towers...’ or something like that, maybe the Elephant Rider, that is only available (or was?) In DyP (I played it a lot :D ) it was bigger than the Modern Elephant, but maybe the AoE one looks smaller.

If someone has it (RotK) handy, check out that archer thing, I sort of remember them shooting off of it. But in any case, we will do what you say, it would be cooler to have more than one Mûmakil though. I was thinking about the Elves, here is what I have so far.

Main Def.
1a. Spearman (Civ3) Name: Elven Speaman
1b. Macedonian Phalangite (Kryten) Name: Elven Pikeman.
1c-d. Elven Spearman (kinboat) Name: High Elven Spearman (!)?

[EDIT- Ah crap! My Curse continues!:( ]

Originally posted by PCHighway
... I was thinking about the Elves, here is what I have so far.

Main Def.
1a. Spearman (Civ3) Name: Elven Speaman
1b. Macedonian Phalangite (Kryten) Name: Elven Pikeman.
1c-d. Elven Spearman (kinboat) Name: High Elven Spearman (!)?

[EDIT- Ah crap! My Curse continues!:( ]
Curse? To have your post in the middle of the third page? :p
If we go with that the elves has good units which doesn't upgrade to much better, then we maybe shouldn't have as many different elven units? I'm worried about archers, as both the vanilla archer and bowman has beards.

hmmm... more intresting ideas coming up...

IMHO, the orcs should be less powerfull than there human/elf/dwarf and cheaper...

this should simulate the strenght of numbers that the orcs rely on...

mrtn-
Curse? To have your post in the middle of the third page? :p
If we go with that the elves has good units which doesn't upgrade to much better, then we maybe shouldn't have as many different elven units? I'm worried about archers, as both the vanilla archer and bowman has beards. Just how many replies do you have per page :eek:! I'm on the 6th page now!

Main Off.
2a. Macedonian Hypatist? (Kryten) Name: Shortsword(man?)
2b. Samurai (Civ3)? Name: Longsword(man?) (Need ideas)
2c-d. Elven Swordsman (Kinboat) Name: Elven Champion.

Don't worry about that, I was thinking of switching the Archers into the 'horsearchers' in the 2nd age, what about that? Or I can just keep them Cavalry.

Celeborn, I don't think Orc's should be stronger, they have only 1 less attack than the Men, and will cost MUCH less, or so I envisioned, half as much in the early ages, and 2\3 cheaper for the infantry in the late era. I did try to represent the infantry ‘mass’ by giving units like the Orc Spearman a bombard ability. 5 spearmen would get 5 (somewhat weak)shots at an attacking unit, before it even got the chance to fight.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Just how many replies do you have per page :eek:! I'm on the 6th page now! 40, not 20. And I haven't regretted changing.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Main Off.
2a. Macedonian Hypatist? (Kryten) Name: Shortsword(man?)
2b. Samurai (Civ3)? Name: Longsword(man?) (Need ideas)
2c-d. Elven Swordsman (Kinboat) Name: Elven Champion.
We might be able to use some of the Japanese units from PTW. Not the original Samurai, though, I don't believe the elves shaved their heads like that.
The Otomo no Makuta has a longbow, and could be a cool archer.
The Shoni no Kagesuke is the same guy on a horse. These two should be used.

Then there are some that could be used, but aren't as good. These are the Nakamaro Horseman and the Minamoto Samurai (sword). Take a look at the Warrior Monk(pike/spear thing) also (It's the best of these three).

I don't really think the Hypastist fits...Hyschaspisch...Hashishim. :crazyeye: Which leads me to ponder if the assassin can be used. Not the one with blue weapons, but the other.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Don't worry about that, I was thinking of switching the Archers into the 'horsearchers' in the 2nd age, what about that? Or I can just keep them Cavalry. Worry about what? I'm lost.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Celeborn, I don't think Orc's should be stronger, they have only 1 less attack than the Men, and will cost MUCH less, or so I envisioned, half as much in the early ages, and 2\3 cheaper for the infantry in the late era. I did try to represent the infantry ‘mass’ by giving units like the Orc Spearman a bombard ability. 5 spearmen would get 5 (somewhat weak)shots at an attacking unit, before it even got the chance to fight.
No, they would only get one attack per attacker. You only help the defenders with one catapult per attack.

mrtn- 40, not 20. And I haven't regretted changing.But it is inevitable that the attacker will get attacked, and then that would be there to help them. I gave the ability to the main attacker in the last age, (Uruk hai) you read it, right ;)?

mrtn- We might be able to use some of the Japanese units from PTW. Not the original Samurai, though, I don't believe the elves shaved their heads like that.
The Otomo no Makuta has a longbow, and could be a cool archer.
The Shoni no Kagesuke is the same guy on a horse. These two should be used.
I was thinking about this earlier, but I was thinking only the horse archer, this would work, though.
mrtn- Worry about what? I'm lost. The archer animations, we could use the Babylonian Bowman for the first archer, the one you mentioned as an ‘armored’ one, then we can split into the Horse archers, Krytens and the Japanese one. I would rather have them used as a cavalry line though, and It would be cooler to have Archer infantry for the whole game. I think we can skim by with just 3 archer units.

It will look funny giving the Men and the Elves the same archer animation, why don’t we give the Civ3 archer gfx for the ‘Bowman’. You said it would look funny with him not having as much clothes, but the Tribal warrior is the same way, so is the Swordsman, why don’t we give the Men the Civ3 Archer gfx, and the Elves the Babylonian bowman gfx? Or there is always that skirmisher ;).

mrtn- I don't really think the Hypastist fits...Hyschaspisch...Hashishim.:crazyeye:Which leads me to ponder if the assassin can be used. Not the one with blue weapons, but the other. I dunno... The assassin looks sort of weird, the hood doesn’t go with the elves to well. I had the Macedonian Phalangite down for an elven pikeman, what do you think about that? We’ll have to think of something else.

And thats about only the third time I heard someone relate the Hashish trade to the rise of Assassins, on CFC :eek:, paid attention in History class did you? ;).

Originally posted by PCHighway
But it is inevitable that the attacker will get attacked, and then that would be there to help them. I gave the ability to the main attacker in the last age, (Uruk hai) you read it, right ;)? No, I only look at the pics. Is that wrong?


Originally posted by PCHighway
...I dunno... The assassin looks sort of weird, the hood doesn’t go with the elves to well. I had the Macedonian Phalangite down for an elven pikeman, what do you think about that? We’ll have to think of something else.

And thats about only the third time I heard someone relate the Hashish trade to the rise of Assassins, on CFC :eek:, paid attention in History class did you? ;).
I didn't mean use him as an elf, just for general use.:crazyeye:
History class? You mean it's possible to learn such things in school? Whenever we got a new teacher, we started from the stone age again. :mad:
I read it somewhere.

mrtn-
No, I only look at the pics. Is that wrong?

I didn't mean use him as an elf, just for general use.:crazyeye:
History class? You mean it's possible to learn such things in school? Whenever we got a new teacher, we started from the stone age again. :mad:
I read it somewhere.


:lol:

Ok then, what do we use for the short Swordsman