Again take a few seconds to read this introduction carefully to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the divided spoiler rules.

This is the THIRD and final spoiler thread to support discussion of Gotm19-Ottomans.

The objective of these divided spoiler threads is to provide a little organization to the discussion that will help more people find the topics that they are interested in without having to rummage through the entire game discussion.

Help us to keep the things filed in the appropriate places: ancient age +home continent& Rome, middle ages+Full map, or end game.

I encourage every player to practice and master the process of posting links to the important previous reports of game progress that you may have posted for each of the three major phases of your game up to this point. If you need help with this process feel free to ask and I am certain that some of the more experienced players can help you.

The test for access to this spoiler thread is simple:

you must have submitted your final save file from playing the game.

You may discuss any information from the game but if you are posting reports of events and/or activities in the Early or Middle portion of the game, those reports should be placed in the correct spoiler for that time segment of the game.

We particularly are interested in where the other civilizations are in the progress of time relative to where you are when and if you enter into the Industrial Age. Which civs are are the top three threats to your plans of success and why?

Big picture issues like how your overall strategy helped you to win the game or how early mistakes may have eventually led to your downfall would be nice items to discuss in this thread.

Hope everyone has had fun with this game and that you are looking forward to Gotm20-Spanish!!

Hope everyone has had fun with this game and that you are looking forward to Gotm20-Spanish!!
Let's hope the next map is back to standard size so that we get a full meal, not just a snack. ;)


With control of our continent it is just a matter of time. What few techs I want from the industrial age I acquire mostly by shipping luxuries / resources to civs I am not fighting. I have plenty enough luxuries to keep my size 12 cities happy, and plenty of leverage to manipulate the remaining civs of India, Egypt and China. Spain has been long dead at India's hand. I am going push cash mode to upgrade to rifleman, rush libraries, settlers and additional workers to help with railing the world.

980 AD - Our free tech is Steam Power, and we actually have coal in former Celt territory. We are now the tech leader in the world.

980 AD to 1180 AD - The first Roman war begins. They didn't have natural saltpeter, so they suspect they will not have good defenders. Once I get there I can tell they must have gained saltpeter in trade, as I do find musketmen. However, I have seen very few fast units. The offensive is delayed several turns clearing out huge stacks of medieval infantry and legionary. The bad news is my Roman enemy is the first to rifleman. What is unreal is at the end of the war NONE of the AI civs has Steam Power. I have already completed railing up my core, topped off all cities to size 12, and optimized all cities to high shields. I am now working on irrigating all corrupt cities to maximize growth. I guess 50+ workers and a ton of free labor really helps. A leader is born during this war that eventually gives us Universal Suffrage.

1230 AD to 1240 AD - The second and final Carthage war begins. The only reason it took this long to begin was getting the need transports to hop between the islands in position. The large Roman navy precluded moving them before the death of Rome.

1330 AD to 1380 AD - The big conflict begins as we start the cross-ocean invasion. The war with Egypt has begun. Things get a bit rough as China allies with Egypt against us. I counter by allying with India vs. China. Then the insanity strikes as Egypt declares war on India (I never saw a MPP message). During this war economics is finally discovered, and we rush Smith's. I must admit that I was shocked how weak Egypt was. I could have easily started the war 5 turns earlier.

1385 AD to 1405 AD - The real war with China begins as I can get to them due to the death of Egypt.

I suspect that I will be beat by at least several hundred years on domination speed. Domination is achieved and we get a civ score of 5,745. I don't think I have ever played a game before where I never built a cathedral, coliseum, bank, etc. This was my most single tracked game with a focus on 100% military, ignore science and rip through my enemies. This played perfectly into the UU of the Siphai. I have always felt it is the single most powerful UU in the game. I think this is the first time that I achieved domination before infantry arrived.

What is weird is it wasn't that satisfying of a win, as I feel Siphai in human hands doesn't make for a challenge to win.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/mac.jpgv1.29beta

Here you find the first (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=972837#post972837) and the second (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=963752#post963752) part of my history. (Don't know why the links don't work correctly for now. :( )

Industrial Times start in 820. Scientific gives us nationalism an as always I start steam (70%, due in 4). The AIs still lack ToG and magnetism; the plan is to invade Rome before they know nationalism.

870: Steam and we have 3 coal; railroading like mad starts. We donate everybody (except Rome) in Industrial Times and organize a dog-pile against Rome.

910: Invade Rome; Sipahi rules. In 1140 Rome is history. On this continent, we hurry libraries to claim the territory asap and otherwise mostly grow pop/taxmen. No great production is necessary nor expected.

Wonders: The war gives us Great Leaders 3 and 4 who build Theory of Evolution in 1130 (atomic and electronics) and Hoover in 1150. We build battlefield Medicine in 1300 in Antalya (was ToE pre-build) and Universal Suffrage 1305 in Sogut (was Hoover pre-build).

We can trade for democracy, music theory, free artistry, industrialization, communism, and espionage; atomic, electronics from ToE; the other techs need 4 turns each.

Beginning of the Industrial Times, I get bored on doing "just another space race" and decide to go diplomatic. There are no people who can badmouth us (Kelts, neoC, Rome are gone) and the other civs are still busy waring among themselves. We start greasing them with techs and luxuries (they have no money to pay anyhow). Everybody but Egypt (polite) is gracious to us for a long time.

1320 We start a Palace as UN pre-build in Lugdunum.

1365 We enter Modern Times. Scientific gives us rocketry, we start fission. Regrettably it needs 5 turns even at 100% research and we have to adjust our palace pre-build to not finish ahead of time. We now grease the AIs every turn.

1390 Fission researched; switch via "big picture" to Domestic Advisor and switch palace to UN.

Candidates are Cleo and Suleyman;
Cleo votes Cleo,
Suleyman votes Suleyman, so does everybody else. 4:1.

Suleyman The Magnificent is Secretary General and is given a score of 6536. Edit add: Jason score 8738.

My first diplomatic win. :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm19_3_histo.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm19_3_score.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm19_3_map.jpg

PS: If you don't know it yet: "so gut" is the German translation of "so good".

PPS: Best Easter Egg? Spanish Missionaries' fighting style. :D :D :D

The calculators have been updated to show the Jason score for GOTM19 now. The 'New' curve is the one being used for GOTM19.

javascript version (PC): http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/calculator.shtml

php version (MAC): http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/calculator.php

The story so far:
By 960AD the "home" continent was under my control completely, and the Ottomans became a democracy in 1030AD (the revolution had started in 990AD)

From there:
I decided pretty much to stick to my home continent from here, and go for a space race (war takes too long to play moving all those units about)

1100 Newton's University

1320 Blasted Romans declare war on us. Made MPP with every other nation except India (who wanted more than just a spare luxury). Soon Rome is at war with everyone. Small squads of Balkan Dragoons murder any Romans who step ashore (my continent is mostly railroaded so no problem there). Sadly I don't get a GL out of the war, which I was hoping I might.

1340 Theory of Evolution
1360 Universal Suffrage
1395 Hoover Dam

1400 Romans get India to declare war on us too. India never actually sends any troops though.

1450 Agreed peace with Rome (their ships bombarding my coast was getting annoying, and I thought it might annoy the Indians to find they were suddenly on their own in a war they probably didn't want)

1515 Entered Modern Era

1520 Rome declares war again.
1575 Rome persuades India to declare war too (and India are just as useless as last time).

1585 Ottomans Capture Brundisium. Rome pays a token amount for peace.

1590 UN (but no elections will ever be held because I want to see the space ship video again)

1645 Manhattan Project
1660 SETI
1725 Apollo
1774 Launch! Space Race Victory.

Rome was running close to me in the tech race for the Spaceship (1 turn in it with two techs to go: Nuclear Power and The Laser). Then they did the most stupid thing -- they researched Recycling and Advanced Flight instead!
I felt cheated. I wanted to win the more satisfyingly honest way -- by shredding Rome with my 11 tactical nukes and 2 ICBMs the moment they discovered Nuclear Power. But oh no, Caesar just gives up the ghost and researches himself a helicopter to fly away home in.

:-)

My first Emperor win.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f



My game was pretty straight forward from the begining of the industrial age. I got Steam as my free tech and easily made a push through the industrial age dragging the other "rich" civs along selling everything along the way to Rome, Spain and Carthage. Well until Carthage decided to sign a MPP with Rome.

This was soon after the era change and Nationalism had just come in and was traded around. I pretty much ignored Nationalism and was at RP in no tme. Anyway, Rome and Carthage sign an MPP. Within 2 turns 4 stacks of Num. cross our boarders. I sign on an MPP with Rome and demand Carthage to leave he refuses and the war begins.

The Sipahi that I had been slowly amassing since they became available are ready to rock but I wait for Carthage to attack first to draw Rome in on the correct side of the war. I roll through Carthage grabbing SunZu and Bachs. This is to go nicely with my Celtic Pyramids. And once Carthage is destroyed I settle in for a lonely research race to space.

By far I am the tech leader and I have to research everything on my own. Selling as I go the AI are paying my way. This I am sure is not the fastest way to space but I know it works.

I easily build the ToE, Sufferage, Hoover, the UN was from my only leader that came from my only real wars. The slow race got boring so I decided to loadup a few transports and took our India in 4-5 turns. At that point I almost decide to go for a domination but decided to stick with my original plan and go for space.

And sat back and launched in 1545 AD with a score of 5647. This was my best space date but I am sure many will destroy it.

Interesting to note Egypt was major force on the other continent and was almost able to take out China. Everyone, including me left Rome alone.

Hotrod

EDIT: Well my Ancient Age post got lost so you'll have to make due with my Middle Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=963911#post963911) post.

At the end of the Middle Age I was about to complete Copernicus in 1 turn and Newton's in 3 turns. I had gotten Medicine as my free tech and was researching Steam Power at 100% science. Even at 100% it was going to take me 5 turns though. After Copernicus was built I still couldn't get it down to 4, but when Newton's triggered my Golden Age it easily shaved the turn off.

I really wasn't expecting my Golden Age from Newton's. Truthfully I had completely forgotten that I hadn't had a Golden Age yet. It's very rare for me to get them so late in the game. I was planning to research Sanitation on my own to make sure I could do 4 turns per tech in the Industrial Age, but now that I had my Golden Age I decided I could do 4 turns per tech without hospitals and I would let the AI research Sanitation for me.

I gifted Steam Power to all the AI's after learning it. Unfortunately Rome, Spain, and Carthage didn't have any coal. I had 3 sources but 1 wasn't connected yet. I made sure to trade my extra Coal to Rome as soon as possible since they were the research superpower in this game. Now I knew the AI's were all wasting their time researching Nationalism now since they love that tech. My plan was to trade for it as soon as they get it so I could trade it to all the other AI's and make them stop researching it.

I researched Electricity@4, then Scientific Method@4 so I'd have techs to trade for Nationalism. Rome learned Nationalism first (surprise surprise) but I couldn't trade for it without giving away massive amounts of gpt. I needed to research a tech down the other branch so I had two to trade. Btw I had gifted Electricity around already since that would force the AI's to go for Replaceable Parts instead of Communism. Meanwhile I researched Industrialization@4. Carthage also learned Nationalism which made it a lot easier to trade for it without using gpt. I traded Industrialization along with around 3000 gold to Rome for Nationalism, then I traded them Scientific Method to get my 3000 gold back. I sold all techs to all AI's for as much up front cash as I could get and swiped Music Theory at the same time.

I then researched The Corporation@4. I completed Theory of Evolution at the same time I learned The Corporation and took Atomic Theory and Electronics as my free techs. Now I studied the tech tree and tried to figure out what other tech the AI might be tempted to go for in the Industrial Age. I really wasn't expecting to get another tech since I knew they'd go for Communism but I figured I might as well try. I figured Radio and Flight would be the most likely choices for the AI since they had worker improvements and city improvements. Flight would be better since it had units as well but it would be a while before I reached the requisite techs for Flight. Therefore I traded Atomic Theory and Electronics to all the AI's hoping one of them would go for Radio for me. I hadn't finished Hoover's yet but it was due in 4 so I wasn't worried.

I started researching Refining@4. When it was due in 2 turns I turned down research to 60% to save money, even though I knew my Golden Age would end the next turn. Well, I didn't realize my mistake until the next turn when Refining stayed at 2 turns and even moving the slider to 100%, and changing all city configs to work ocean/lakes/rivers I couldn't manage to get it in 1 anymore. So I learned Refining@5. Meanwhile Rome got Replaceable Parts for me (was anyone else capable of researching?) and I traded them Refining for it. I traded Refining and Replaceable Parts around to all the AI's as well so they wouldn't research them.

Now my Golden Age was over but I was still able to continue learning techs in 4 turns, except by raising the slider much higher. I decided I'd continue to wait for Sanitation which hadn't come in yet. I researched Steel@4. I didn't trade it to the AI's because I didn't want them researching Combustion. I knew they'd research Radio before Steel since Steel is a useless tech. I learned Combustion@4 with the slider at 100% and a 200gpt defecit, but I had 7000 gold saved from my Golden Age so all was good still. Rome learned Communism now but I didn't trade for it quite yet because I wanted them to start on Radio. I learned Mass Production@4 and then I traded it around to everyone getting Communism in the process.

I moved on to Motorized Transportation@4. And low and behold Rome discovers Radio! I really wasn't expecting that and was very happy. I traded for it and only had Flight left to go in the Industrial Age. I barely managed to research Flight@4 by leaving the slider at 100% all 4 turns and also micromanaging cities to work water tiles. The commercial docks were just so important in this game. They vastly improve research since coastal tiles produce 4 commerce with a commercial dock.

So I entered the Modern Age in 1000AD. Now I wanted Fission, Computers or Rocketry for my free tech so of course I got Ecology. The AI's still hadn't researched Sanitation for me and none of the Modern Age techs were attainable in 4 turns. So I had a tough decision to make. Would researching Sanitation myself now save me 4 turns down the road? I decided it would since both Fission and Computers would take 6 turns, while Rocketry would have taken 5.

So I researched Sanitation@4 and low and behold the AI gets it on the same turn. :mad: So I just wasted 4 more turns. I quickly built hospitals in all my cities and started joining workers to the important ones. I figured I'd let the AI research Fission or Rocketry for me since they usually like those techs. Then maybe I could get Space Flight after that. So I researched Computers@5. I started building Research Labs in all my cities that already had hospitals. I researched Synthetic Fibers@5. The AI still hadn't learned Fission or Rocketry even though we'd been in the Modern Age for 14 turns now grr. So I had no choice but to research Rocketry myself in 4. The AI still hadn't gotten Fission so I went on to Space Flight in 4.

Ok this isn't funny anymore. The AI still hasn't gotten Fission, they haven't learned a single tech other than Sanitation and Democracy in 22 turns. I don't know what they're researching that's more appealing than Fission. So I was forced to research Satellites next in 4. After that I'd be forced to learn Fission myself if the AI didn't get it. Thankfully they finally did get it when I was halfway through Satellites. I traded for it and started on Superconductor in 4. I knew there'd be no more help from the AI's from here on. I learned Nuclear Power in 4 and then The Laser in 4.

I used the Big Picture to launch my ship in 1315AD with a score of 5619. Very low score since I never had time to expand after conquering the Celts. Jason score is 8396. I was still very happy with my launch though. It was the earliest launch date for me by 350 or so years.

I also finished the UN on the same turn. I signed MPP's and RoP's the turn before. All remaining AI's were gracious with me. After launching I reloaded and held the vote and won 4-1. Only Rome voted for themselves. India had been knocked off during the Industrial-Modern Age and I took out the Celts myself. That's probably why the other continent sucked at research since they were constantly at war.

What could I have done to improve my score/date? Well I wasted 4 turns researching Sanitation and 1 turn from my Refining blunder. So if not for those I could have launched in 1290AD. Next time I will probably research Sanitation myself at the beginning of the Industrial Age, Golden Age or no Golden Age. I really didn't expect the AI's to take until the Modern Age to get it.

But what hurt my game the most was not having Literature until after I was already in the Middle Age. I think that was just a stroke of bad luck by me that Carthage, Rome, and the Celts never bothered with it. Of course another mistake was even though I researched Map Making early I never built a galley. If I had contacted the other continent right away I could have traded for Literature and probably other techs as well. I think if I had gotten Literature when I expected to get it I would have shaved a good 20 turns off my launch date.

Another thing I'll probably do next time is leave 2 or 3 civ's way behind in tech so I can roll them over at some point and increase my score. Rome was the only civ that researched required techs for me this game. Carthage got democracy and a couple other free techs. I should have just left the other continent in the dust and I could have run them over even with my puny military.

I also would have scored higher if I had gone with a Diplomatic victory instead of a Spaceship victory. The AI really wasn't any help with research in the Modern Age. I could have won with a UN vote in 1050AD if I wanted to. This would have given me an in game score of 6576 and a Jason score of 9185. Nearly 1000 points higher than my Space victory.

I really didn't have any pictures that I thought were worth posting. My empire was unchanged since the Middle Age pretty much. But I know it's hard to keep your attention without pictures. So if you're reading this part of my post then thanks for reading and give yourself a pat on the back for having a good attention span.

@tao I just finished my game tonight, quite close to yours. I won diplomatically (my favorite win) in 1375 with 6497 score. Only beat you by 3 turns. Of course Shillen would have creamed us both if he had gone for Diplomacy. I attribute the difference in our scores to my not full conquering Rome. I only took a bit over half of their territory. Just didn't have the momentum to finish them off.

I finish my GOTM 19 yesterday.

Finaly, I decide to milk my game. I keep my domination limit under the fatidic limit of 66% but I forget to keep in mind the Cultural 100K limit and I achieved a Cultural 100K victory in 2038AD!
My Civ3 score is 6931. (My best one).

Most of my game were dedicate to produce military units.
First, I produce a lot of Swordman and conquered the Celts and Carthage. By ~800AD, I conquered the starting continent.

Then, I built an army of Sipadi and conquered Rome with some difficulty (Helped with Cannon). (Only the biggest continent of the Romans). And then, I attack Spain, Indian and finaly China only with lot of artillery, plus sipadi and Riflemen.

Then, I attack again Rome and let them only 1 city with no posibility of expansion.

I start to produce temple/library/cathedral, Aqueduc/marketplace/... in all my cities and switch to Democracy.

I had only 4 greats leaders. I use the first one in order to produce an army.

LeSphinx

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/civ3.jpg
Ancient age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53011&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=2) post. I couldn't link to my post for some reason, so I had to link to the second page of the first spoiler thread.

Middle age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=964032#post964032) post.

My free tech in the industrial age 690 ad was Nationalism which came as a surprise. I was just about to create a bunch of spearmen for later upgrade, so I didn't want this tech. I decided I would keep the Egyptians backwards while gifting the techs to the other civs. Egypt had plenty of land and had never helped me in research, so I prepared for war against Egypt to increase score a little.

830 ad - I declare war with Egypt and land my army and at least 20 cavalries on their land. In the meanwhile I was having a revolution.

860 ad - Government Democracy.
890 ad - Egypt destroyed.
My tech pace was alright, but I didn't get much help.

1100 ad - Romans finally discovered Replacable Parts and declare war with me immediately. They liberate Viroconium and capture my other city on their continent.

1130 ad - Captured Roman city flip to our side, and this time I want to keep it so I ship over some troops there.

1140 ad - Third great leader appear, this time against weak Spain. Chinese had traded for Replacable Parts, so I could now trade for it.

Here is my great city from which I lead all my attacks against the Romans:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm19_1150ad.jpg

1180 ad - Finally world peace again.
1275 ad - Romans declare war over spy.
1295 ad - Modern age.
1310 ad - neoCarthage destroyed by Romans
1335 ad - Indians sneak attack old Egypt with 30 cavalries
1340 ad - Peace with Romans.
1350 ad - Fourth leader appear in the war against India.
1355 ad - War with Romans again because of an annoying mutual protection pact with China.

1380 ad - Abandon 3 size 6 cities.
1390 ad - Gift Rome to China and abandon 2 cities.
1400 ad - Fifth great leader appear in the war against Rome. Spain destroyed by China.

1410 ad - Apollo Program complete.
1415 ad - Sixth great leader appear. Peace with Rome and India.
1435 ad - Cankiri founded near a lake. Workers join the city to size 12. Then I gift the city to India.
.
. (gift more cities and abandon more cities)
.
1480 ad - Launch space ship.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/el_kalkylus_gotm18_map3.jpg

In the end I used matstat to prevent domination victory. By reading the victory condition too fast, I thought that I would get a domination victory if I had more than 66% land OR more than 66% of world population. This is the reason why I abandoned and gifted cities. Pretty stupid of me, since I lost alot of score that way.

I have learned something from this game. First of all, I should have built more cities. Some cities never grew bigger than size 12 or size 6, even though they had the capacity to do so. My unproductive cities should therefore have been spaced closer together. Secondly, researching and being in war at the same time is really difficult; especially when you want help from the other civs. So it is probably better to choose what you want to do, not do both.

I need to learn from the master milkers to increase my score in the future.

Well lost again diplo to cleo in 1595ad don't know how she did it the ai civs were always fighting.Score 597 Jason 475 +53 from last month.I may win one before civ4 comes out lol.I read your post Shillen 100% science and selling tech to the AI i like it i assume thats how everyone keeps up i traded and did gpt at the beginning but then everyone quit tradingwith me i will have do the 100&sell next game.I'll have to keep reading this thread to see how the rest of everyone manages to get these awsome wins thanks for the tip shillen

My first GOTM and first ever game higher than warlord... needless to say I lost but I did beat my best ever score by a factor of 4 so it wasn't all bad! I lost by spaceship (Romans) in 1908AD and I really didn't see it coming... I knew I was a bit behind in tech but I had researched a few modern age techs at least!
My in game score was 1607
I've still submitted it even though I'll be waaaay down the list!
Lessons learnt:
1. Build lots more cities!
2. Don't be afraid of war
3. Don't emphasise culture at the expense of a military
4. Really pay attention to the pregame discussion threads!!!

I'm off to eat some humble pie.. :rolleyes:

Finished my game a week and a half ago and now I'm out of town and don't have access to it. But I do remember this:

I controlled a small amount of territory and had a weak military. I attacked the civ S of me and got a lucky GL to complete the UN. I gave away 500gpt, 3000g, luxuries, techs, and signed mil alliances against the civ I was at war with. Got 3 civs to Gracious. Held a vote and won in 1520.

This is like the first Diplo win I've had in a very long time. It was probably the only shot I had at the win, because several civs were on tech paritity with me and had much bigger armies. But I'll take it. A win is a win!

This was my first Emperor game and I managed to win. :)

In the beginning of the industrial age I finished the FP in Entremont, which considerably increased my production. I changed my government to democracy which helped even more.

Rome and Carthage were still in constant warfare. Rome, Carthage, China, and Spain all changed their governments to communism. Because of this I was able to catch up and pass everyone in tech.

I made a beeline for replaceable parts so I could build infantry. I then went after and built the Theory of Evolution, my first wonder. I was then able to build Hoover Dam. After that I concentrated on getting tanks.

Carthage asked me for a MPP and ROP, and I accepted. This brought me into the Roman-Carthage war. I landed tanks and infantry in Rome's territory. Carthaginian battleship had destroyed the improvements to Rome's oil and rubber, so I mostly fought guerrillas. Rome had a large army, and it was slow going. War weariness started to set in. My governors were set to keep people happy so I had no revolts, but people started to starve. My agreement with Carthage expired, and I did not renew it. Carthage landed no ground troops until near the end when they landed about six tanks. They never engaged the Romans.

At the beginning of the modern age Rome was destroyed. China destroyed India, leaving only Spain and China on that continent. Spain built the UN, but never called for a vote. I built both the internet and SETI.

Carthage attacked one of my battleships, a bad move on their part. They also razed one of my smaller cities. I had MA and mech, while they had tanks and infantry. I torched every one of their cities except for Carthage (which had Sistine and the Pyramids) and Utica (which had Sun Tzu) to prevent cultural reversion. I built my own cities in their rubble.

War weariness again became a problem, but my war with Carthage was much shorter than my war with Rome. Carthage had a settler on a transport, which I had to chase down and sink.

In the meantime China was attacking Spain. Madrid had the UN and Universal Suffrage, so I declared war on Spain to grab Madrid for myself. Between China and I Spain was destroyed.

I had a big tech lead on China. I could have tried for a domination win but I opted for the spaceship instead. I completed my spaceship without China even starting theirs. :king:

I ended up with about 3300 points.

Next GOTM I will take notes!;)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f

Well, I can skip the link to my last post...basically, around 1100 AD, I was finishing off the Celts, India was an iddybiddy civ by this point, I was working my way out of the cellar in points, culture, and power, though I was even in tech.

I continued building my forces, as now I was showing as weak to everyone except India after the fight with the Celts. I had initially thought of invading Carthage next, but noticed India was smaller and weaker than I was, so I started gearing up for my first foray across to their land and picking out a nice cozy spot to call my own.

But...just before I was ready to declare war, India signed a MPP with Egypt, who was a major player over there at the time. So, I reset my sights on Carthage. At first, things were going well, and within 7 turns I managed to halve their territory.

Then, Spain declared war on me out of the blue. Not wanting to wage two wars, I dragged everyone else into it against them, with Rome and Egypt both waging war against Carthage on their own.

I threw a stack or two at the next Carthage city, when suddenly a previously captured city flipped back. I split the stack to recapture the lost city, next turn a different city flipped. Another split, recapture. Flip, recapture, repeat. Someday I will remember to raze some of these pesky cities... I let the war go on far too long, I should have taken a peace treaty and reloaded instead of playing Othello with the captured cities...flipflipflip...

End result, 1780 rolled around. I managed to hang on to a few of Carthage's cities, with most of the bigger/better cities going back their way. I decided to try to build my infastructre a bit more, set all of my cities to produce factories/hospitals/universities, whatever they were missing.

1784, Egypt, who had built the UN while I was messing with the Carthaginians, called the vote and won. Diplomatic defeat, 1296 points, 1032 Jason score.

My downfall was half taking too long to start wars for territory, it was in the 800s AD before I felt I had expanded and built enough to really get going. Other half was not having the best plan of how to 'win'. I could have possibly pulled a space race win off, maybe a diplo, if I had built up for science research sooner and got rolling instead of pushing for further combat.

But, I am still satisfied with my game this month. Playing over my usual difficulty, but I had managed to hold my own, was never invaded and kicked around, and still felt like I could have won if I had done a few minor things differently. Now, to see if this is good enough to get me a higher rank than #135 this month. :crazyeye:

All in all, good game, now for next month! ;)

Well, now I've submitted my 3rd GOTM, and at least I didn't lose this one by being voted out, like the last 2. Instead I lost via Space Race to Rome. :cry: Even though I was #1 in score, land and pop but alas that doesn't always mean much. I had a great time and keep learning lessons:

1 - Don't prebuild for the Hoover Dam in a city that doesn't have a river or mountain:mad: I wanted that damn dam really bad, and thought I was going to finally build my first wonder ahead of the computer.

2 - I was always playing catchup in tech, and I am still trying to figure that out. It was the same case in the other GOTMs. However, I dominated the other Ottoman games I played preparing for this one, just like I'm winning with the Spanish right now, but Cracker always finds a way to get me ;)

3 - I guess I need to research Espionage and get a spy in each civ. I thought I would have some idea Rome was building a spaceship. I was still trying to get modern Armor to go take out Rome. When suddenly, You Lose !!! Spaceship built. I thought I would see some wonder being built, but Apollo is a small wonder:o

4 - Get a spy and then attack those that are close to building a space ship. I had 50 Bombers postioned on my East coast and 30+ tanks waiting to board my transports for a Rome invasion. I was about 2 turns away from launching my attack when I lost.

5 - One lesson I did learn, and incorporate was not losing by diplomacy. I did not want to go down that road a 3rd time in a row. So I was best buds with everyone when China built the UN, and I was all ready for the vote, but of course it didn't come.

6 - My next move was to then go capture the UN and call my own vote, since there were only 4 of us left (China, Rome and Spain). But , another lesson learned. Rome had 2 small cities left over from Carthage on my continent and everything was peaceful. But just a couple of turns after I moved out a lot of my standing army near those 2 Rome cities to go conquer China - Rome attacked and took several cities before I could get my troops back a permantely kick Rome off my island. So a lesson is to not allow even one foriegn city to remain on your empire island.

7 - well, I will keep playing with the Spanish on different games to get a feel for them until tthe next GOTM comes out. One day I will submit a Victory. When is our Chieftain level game?
:)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/civ3.jpg v1.29f

I entered the Industrial era with my continent secured, and diplo victory as my goal. My main problem was that all the other civs were so slow at researching. I ended up doing all research by myself. At least I could easily keep up a 4 turn research pace in my democracy.

740 ad Romans sneak attack us! Probably because they couldn't afford the 207 gpt payments to me! :( The Romans capture one of my colonies.
800 ad Capture my old city Ankara, which is now totally filled with Roman citizens.
820 ad Newton's completed in Carthage. Romans recapture Ankara w. Cavalry.
830 ad Medicine.
850 ad Peace with Rome. Trade for Ivory.
860 ad Sell Steam Power to Rome for 125 gpt, Nationalism to Egypt for 25 gpt.
920 ad Romans declare war when I refuse to give them coal! JS Bach & Shakespeare's completed. Egypt cascade and build Adam Smith's. :mad:
960 ad Scientific Method.
990 ad Replacable Parts. Complete Magellans, TOE. Learn Atomic Theory & Electronics.
1080 ad Peace with Romans, once again. I decide to stop trading with them.
1150 ad Women's Suffrage completed.
1210 ad Wall Street.
1250 ad Battlefield Medicine, Hoover Dam.
1265 ad Romans declare war when I ask them to leave my territory.
1275 ad Capture Byzantium, and get hold of its harbor and 2 Ivory. :)
1280 ad Radio. Enter new era. Free tech: Rocketry. :( I had hoped for Fission.
1285 ad I will learn Fission only in 5 turns. Heavy micromanagement to get it down to 4 turns! Ravenna captured. It turns out my efforts are needless, and I get in only after 5 turns. :(
1290 ad According to the histograph, Rome is perhaps not the strongest civ. *Worried* I will finish UN in 3 turns, and plan on bringing in every civ in a war against them. I'm afraid India is stronger...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/1305-power.jpg

1300 ad I remove all my troops from the Roman mainland, either by boarding transports or by disbanding units, to allow the Romans to get more territory.
1305 ad Sign alliances with all remaining civs against Rome.
1310 Finsh UN. In the vote, Cleopatra is my opponent!!!! :confused: It turns out I get 4 votes, which means I win anyway. Phew! 6993 points. If you look at the power histograph, India is much stronger:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/1310-ad-diplo-win.jpg

Here is a map of the territories at certain dates:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/sp03replay.jpg

EDIT: End with 6993 Firaxis points 9366 Jason points.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.14f

I won't be submitting this month. I was playing what should be my last session, when the game crashed on me after over two hours without saving... 'save early, save often', I know, but I was too much carried away by the game...
I reluctantly started replaying from my last save, but the AI did really totally different things, and it just didn't feel like the same game any longer, so I left it at that. I'd rather spend some time on analysing last month's QSC's.

Anyway, this is how far I got :

My first post (hmmm...seems to have dissapeared during the technical problems earlier this week) mentions how I destroyed the Celts early on and then made a mess of my war against the Carthagenians, leaving them and the Romans eternally furious at me. :(
My mostly ignored second post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=965944#post965944) with the suggestion of practical examples mentioned how I got back into the game by trading extensively with all civs, and declaring war on India. India exited the game a bit later :) but my warmongering got everyone furious at me. :( With no trading partners, I had to do my own research in the industrial ages, but fortunately I could still trade techs on a 3-for-1 ratio by researching the right techs and trade those (the AI still wanted those techs badly). My Sipahi also finished off the carthagenians :)
I entered the modern ages a couple of techs behind the Romans but still ahead of the rest. The UN was built by Egypt :(, but since Egypt was at war with just about everybody, they never called a vote (and exited the game shortly after) :). At that time I had started building my space-ship, and I noticed I was gaining in on the romans in tech-pace and was way ahead in the space race (7 parts to 4).
That was the first time since 10000BC that I had the impression I could win the game.
But disaster struck : in an attempt to uncover a possible roman spy, my own spy was discovered and Rome declared war :(. I decided to strike first, as hard as possible, meaning 2 tactical nukes and 4 ICBM's which destroyed the biggest Roman cities. A force of about 24 tanks landed on roman radio-active soil to take Rome, destroying the roman spaceship. :) Unfortunately, I also got 4 nukes to digest, and the romans consequently took my capitol :( (you're probably starting to see why I call this a slapstick). That's the point where my game crashed and I decided to call it a day (it was 1848 by then).

Main impressions :
- I learned tons of wisdom again, both in the early turns (QSC) as well as in the final turns (modern warfare - or how not to do it).
- I'm going to pay more attention to the AI terrain in future games, in order to try and predict the AI's gameplay (no rivers will mean less gold, nearby luxuries may indicate early expansion directions)
- I have the vague impression that this was really set up to be a winnable emperor game : weak celts nearby, moderate Cartage a bit further; once you had those two conquered you could control your own island and basically not worry too much about the other civ's. The rivers and luxuries were guarantee for lots of trade and money.

Tough luck!

Behold the power of the auto-save. ;)

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Behold the power of the auto-save. ;)

:eek: Holy Moses ! I forgot all about the auto-saves !! I STILL HAVE THOSE !!! :eek: :wallbash:

But... I've already read this thread... although I didn't gain any knowledge that I didn't know already - the game was in its final stages.... now what ?? :confused: Anybody wanna be jury on this ? Cracker, if you're out there, do you have an opinion ?

Hear hear Scubagtr!!

How's about a Chieftain or Warlord? Anyhoo, another loss from the RocknOats camp. I was so close. Best score yet, I was just about to finish off China(already closed the book on Celts and Egypt), had over a thou a turn for culture and had just taken over the top spot when Carthage(shoulda taken them early) sneak attacked my one inf. defended(each city) home island in 4-5 turns. So it wasn't long before the dream had died. I never led in tech, I was ahead of India, China, and Egypt but what good does that do ya? I didn't build any wonders but captured a couple. I didn't start trading my excess luxuries til about halfway thru and that would have helped me. My only hope as I saw it was to go for culture, since Carthage wouldn't call a vote, even tho I expected a launch any minute. I don't understand how everyone(the good players) get other civs to trade with them! Even before my dirty dealings, everyone treats me like I have the plague! I don't know. I'm gonna keep trying, and I still feel like I'm growing every game. Really looking forward to next month, keep up the good work and congrats to all the winners!!!

Nice games, eveyone, win or lose. RufRyder--I am really impressed; you lost your capital early and still won?!? That's playing!

I hit a tech brick wall in Medieval/Modern: no one would sell me certain techs like Nationalism (even in Modern Times!) even when I put a couple hundred gpt on the table with my "friends". My rep was clean, too.

Anyone have any idea what was going on/suggestions for next time? (I think we're due for a Deity game, by the way)

Middle Ages (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=973196#post973196)

I entered the Industrial Era in 470 AD after researching Magnetism and completed Newton's University in Sogut kicking of a Golden Age. The extra production from the Golden Age allowed Copernicus' Observatory to be completed the same turn (was originally scheduled to complete in 2 turns), and the combination of these events allowed 4 turn research on Steam Power despite having the capital and Forbidden Palace relatively close to each other. The free tech for entering a new era was Nationalism as usual (version 1.29b) which I virtually gifted to the leading civs, and I researched Steam Power, Industrialization, Electricity, and Medicine in 4 turns each during the Golden Age. I forgot to take the end of Golden Age into account when Sanitation had 1 turn left to go, so this tech took 5 turns to complete :cringe:. The extra production during the golden age went toward completing factories, prebuilding hospitals, getting Sun Szu's Art of War (yes, it was still available in the industrial age), and building some Dragoons.

650 AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM19_650ADtact.jpg
Around 650 AD I put the Dragoons and some old surplus Azap infantry into action against Carthage. Even though neoCarthage had a few riflemen (I gave them Nationalism in the hopes that they would research something) the dragoons suffered very few casualties. I captured each city intact without starving the population, but suffered no flips due to the speed of the advance and my cultural superiority. With factories in place and limited losses, the war did not divert much production from science boosting improvements (ie courthouses, hospitals, and the few universities which had not yet been completed). Eventually a leader appeared who rushed a new Palace just South of Sogut, and neoCarthage was destroyed by 800 AD.

800 AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM19_800ADtact.jpg
The new palace came just in time to maintain a 4 turn tech pace for the entire Industrial Age (excepting the Sanitation mistake). Rome researched Replacable Parts, shaving off an additional 4 turns, and TOE yielded Atomic Theory and Electronics. I had hoped that either Egypt or Rome (the two strongest civs who I kept relatively updated) would research Flight while I went for Mass Production, Motorized Transport, and Radio, but they went for Democracy and Communism. The extra population from hospitals allowed me to research at less than 100% toward the end of the era, diverting the surplus to luxury tax.

In 1040 AD I entered the Modern Age getting Computers as my free tech. I had expected Rocketry (probably 95% sure in this version), and this caught me completely off gaurd with no prebuilds ready to swap to research labs. Without quick labs Fission took 5 turns despite extreme efforts to shave off a turn (dumping all cash into rushed labs, joining 70% of the workforce into cities), and I won the diplomatic vote in 1090 AD, switching a Palace to the UN on the same turn as the tech.

In Game Score: 6858
Jason Score: 9419

Shillen, I notice you were able to go through the Industrial Age 12 turns faster than me:

Free Medicine +4
AI Radio +4
Skip Sanitiation +4 (for the purposes of diplomatic comparison).

We both had a 1 turn GA miscalculation and both got Replacable parts from Rome. The AI civs in your game were probably better financed in your game since you let them keep most of their per turn gold, while I drained a good deal of it from them. I would expect that it was the Palace jump which allowed you to get 4 turn research despite skipping Sanitation. On the other hand it was probably those hospitals, along with the assimilated Carthaginian territory, which boosted the in-game score in my game.

Originally posted by Ambiorix
Anybody wanna be jury on this ? Cracker, if you're out there, do you have an opinion ?
5 Hail Marys and send me a Leonidas chocolate bar and you will be absolved of your sins and can play on. ;) ;)

This was my first emperor game, so it came as quite a suprise to me when I won.

I came into the Industrial ages in the late 1300s and way behind the AI in tech, they probably had a 6 to 8 tech lead on me. I had put taxes to 100% and was just buying tech as soon as I could afford it, which netted out to be about 1 tech every 6 turns with me making ~150 gpt. I spent until the mid 1500s with most of the world at peace. Finally, in desparation of slowing down the AI, I used a few military alliances and MPPs to start World War I.

This slowed them down as they were reaching the end of the Industrial Age, while I was still buying my way frantically up the the middle of the techs. The war was me, Carthage, and Spain vs. Rome, Egypt, India, and China. I had a few small one-unit landings on my continent, which my Siphai quickly dispatched, and spent most of the war building my money-making infrastructure and production infrastructure. I also finally acquired Republic and revolted in the opening stages of the war. Eygpt, however, still managed to get to Fission and start building the UN just before they lowered their research rate, and finished it in 1585. A diplomatic loss was barely averted when they called for a vote and it was 3 for Cleopatra, 2 for Hannibal, and 2 abstaining.

In 1635, Carthage signed a military alliance against me, and took my three closest cities to them in the next few turns, two of which I took back the turn after, and one of which they razed. In 1670, I was finally able to buy Motorized Transportation, and the war degenerated into stalemate until 1720, when my military alliance with Rome against them was broken by Rome making peace, an example which I quickly followed. Except for me and Carthage, World War I wound down in the late 1600s.

I finally entered the Modern Ages in 1730, and got Fission as my free tech. I promptly made a series of deals with Rome, Spain, and China, resulting in a net gain of 2000 gold and Rocketry. By now I was making around 400 gpt. As the prices for buying techs started to become in the 4000 gold range, I changed my method to stealing techs. To keep the AI research in check, I started World War II in 1745, this time making sure to get a MPP with Carthage. During this war, Spain and China were conquered by Egypt.

After stealing Space Flight, I built Apollo, and used prebuilds in my 4 50-shield cities to make every part almost as soon as it became available. I finally launched my Spaceship in 1818, finishing with a in-game score of 2529, and a Jason score of 3819.

I finished several days ago, but just finally submitted my game.
I won in 1220 AD by domination ( I rarely finish games as I really enjoy the start more)

I just barely beat the AI's to the great library in Sogut after starting it just before 1000 bc (prebuild of the pyramids while researching lit).
This started my golden age, but I revolted to get to republic. I wasted 8 turns of it in anarchy, but it was wortwhile. After the revolt I built the hanging gardens in my capitol in 10 turns. The computer tech pace was really slow, and during this time I build up my cities by rushing improvements. When education finally expired I quickly researched through the middle ages (military tradition first), upgraded about 40 horses (leo's, and lots of gpt income at that point) and took out Rome. After the Roman war I transported all of the Sipahi's to China along with a few more I had built. At this point I was in the industrial age and had many factories/hospitals online. I took out China in a brief war. I think it lasted 3 turns (maybe 4). After that India declared war on me. They offered slightly more resistance than China, as they researched nationalism.
My final in game score was 7631.

Needless to say, next month I plan to take more detailed notes of my game.

Originally posted by Zwingli
Without quick labs Fission took 5 turns despite extreme efforts to shave off a turn (dumping all cash into rushed labs, joining 70% of the workforce into cities), and I won the diplomatic vote in 1090 AD, switching a Palace to the UN on the same turn as the tech.


Seems our island was just too small for 4 turns Fission. I had exactly the same problem (and spent several hours micromanaging my cities, in vain). And Tao also got Fission only in 5 turns.

BTW, this was my first game in a long long time that I didn't get a single leader. :(

The Ottomans entered the industrial era picking off the last of the continental Carthaginian cities with a finite number of Dragoons, and in control of the tech and wonder race. I built every wonder from Bach on, and managed to trade for some techs by researching the lower half of the tree. About the only lowlights were two odd flips to Carthage and Rome, but I got both back when Rome declared war in 1295. The brief action gained me a third GL, which I saved for the first modern wonder.

My only decision was whether to build the UN or SETI, and go for a diplo or space victory. I chose space out of habit, and failed to trade for one tech with the AI, despite giving them repeated tech gifts. The killer was the AI researching computers first, rather than rocketry or fission. Interestingly, some of the civs responded to the combination of owing me lots of gpt with occasionally being gifted into parity by declaring war. None of these amounted to anything, though, and I wound up launching uneventfull in 1545.

What could have sped up my launch? A faster start, building the FP sooner, and aggressively trading techs even earlier. Instead, this was more of a conservative, cruise-control victory.

There have been an unusual number of terrific diplomatic wins so far. I'm curious as to why none of you chose to keep going for space, given that you were researching at a near-max pace.

Originally posted by Hurricane
And Tao also got Fission only in 5 turns. Yes, and I was annoyed enough about it. I spend some time thinking, restarted from the turn before entering Modern Times, optimized my cities (no taxmen, only researchers), and: 4 turns was possible. Next gotm I know. :goodjob:

Originally posted by Txurce
There have been an unusual number of terrific diplomatic wins so far. I'm curious as to why none of you chose to keep going for space, given that you were researching at a near-max pace.Laziness. It would have been just donkey work, no fun. :)

I just submitted my game some 20 minutes ago and now I've read this thread I'll just tell you what happened in my game.

We entered the industrial age in 660 AD and our free tech is: Nationalism (PTW 1.14).

670 AD: Our Golden Age ends… :(

680 AD: Xinjian (China) builds Magellans Voyage.

710 AD: We declare war on India and invade with 30 sipahi. We capture Kolhapur and Madras while we lose one sipahi. We secure a source of Furs near Madras. In the intraturn the Indian couterstrike costs us two sipahi.

720 AD: We lose one sipahi to capture Delhi an we control the Oracle now… In the intraturn Spain and India sign a military alliance against us. We are now at war with two rivals. Oh well, we’ll just bribe Rome, China and Egypt to join us in our crusade against them.

740 AD: We capture the Indian cities of Calcutta, Bengal, Bombay and Bangalore. We discover steam engine and start railroading our home island.

750 AD: We capture the Indian cities of Jalpur and Lahore.

760 AD: We capture the Indian city of Hydarabad and found the city of Karabuk in the formerly Indian lands.

770 AD: We conquer the Spanish city of Barcelona, which is built on top of wines, and found the city of Cankiri in the formerly Indian lands.

780 AD: We capture the Indian city of Karachi and this means the Indians are no more. :D We declare war on Carthage to finish their last city of (the 20 turn peace treaty has just expired). We immediately capture the last Carthaginian cit and Carthage is also no more…:D. Electricity discovered, research of sanitation begun.

790 AD: We capture Spanish city of Santiago.

810 AD: We capture the Spanish cities of Madrid, which hold Copernicus Observatory and the Great wall, and Salamanca. We build Newtons University in Sogut.

820 AD: We capture the Spanish city of Seville, which has the Colossus and Sun Tzu’s. The Spanish are now exterminated. :D We found the city of Iskenderun in the formerly Spanish lands. Rome extorts us again for saltpeter and we give in again because our forces are not in position to fight Rome…

830 AD: We settle the city of Tunceli on the small island E of Rome.

840 AD: We tell Cleo to get her forces out of our lands or declare war. She complies, so we just declare war on them. We bribe Rome and China to join our crusade… Another elite sipahi wins a battle and generates a GL. The GL returns to Madrid and becomes an army. Another elite sipahi wins a battle and generates another GL. 2 GLs in one turn!! :goodjob: We’ll keep this one for either Heroic Epic (after our army wins a battle) or Universal Suffrage (because we’ll probably research industialization soon. We capture the Egyptian city of Byblos. In the intraturn China conquers the Egyptian city of Toledo.

850 AD: Sanitation discovered, we begin research for industrialization. Army wins battle. GL rushed Heroic Epic in Madrid. We found the city of Sivas on what used to be the border between Spain and Egypt. We capture the Egyptian city of Pi-Ramesses.
Heroic Epic completed in Madrid.

860 AD: We capture the Egyptian city of Heliopolis.

870 AD: We capture the Egyptian capital Thebes.

880 AD: We capture Hieraconpolis and now we control Smiths Trading Corporation.

890 AD: We capture the Egyptian cities of Memphis, Alexandria and El-Amarna.

900 AD: We found Yozgat NW of Thebes.

910 AD: We capture the Egyptian cities of Elephantine, Abydos and Giza.

920 AD: We capture the last two cities of Egypt: Aysut and Avaris. Now Egypt is also no more.

930 AD-950 AD: Settled the formerly Egyptian territory….

950 AD: Declare war on China and we bribe Rome to join us. We capture the Chinese city of Toledo.

960 AD: Domination victory!!!!!!! :D
Time spent: Nearly 28 hours….
Egypt, China and the early eliminated Celts did NOT get a GA.
The AI got no GL at all, where I got 4, double of what I got on a larger map with a militaristic civ in GOTM18.
Score: 8017 points
After following Aesons link to the score calculator I know now I have a Jason score (with the new curve) of: 10167....

I'm pretty pleased with this reault actually! :)
I'm already looking forward to next months game, although I hope it will be more "out of the box", unlike this one, with a severely changed Rome (at least 3 extra settlers, insane amount of naval units and no wonders while it was the strongest AI civ)...

Here's what the world looked like when I achieved domination...

OK, I'm ready for the Spanish on Diety level now. I guess I will practice this setup until I hear what our next game will be. After reading the latest posts, I think I've found another angle concerning research. I've tried to buy reasearch before, but to actually go 100% money, and just keep adding up money turn after turn to buy research is something I have not tried. I will attempt to do this, especially on a Diety or Emperor level game. I think it was Moonsinger who had mentioned that she hardly ever does her own research and either buys it or takes it from the AI.

Go Spurs !!!

I have a really dumb question..and I am almost ashamed to ask.

In 1405, I razed the last enemy city. Conquest is achieved. I hit the spacebar to get my 'congrats' screen.

Now...when I submit my GOTM file..do I claim conquest victory in 1405 or 1410?

@rabies: I think 1410....
They want the saves from after the turn you've finished. I just read that in the FAQ, after I had sent in my savegame from the turn before I reached domination.... :blush:

Darkness, Really? How do you save it after you win(as if I'd know!) Every game I won(non-GOTM!) just runs into the post-game festivities. I've always sent in my before the end saves. Boy, I sure hope I get to test this out next month. . .

P.S. Please Sir, not Diety. . .Spare us. . .

This is straight from the GOTM submisson page

"Saved games (at the turn before the game ends and optional around 10 AD)
Please put these saved games in one zip file to reduce the size."

Rabies

One thing to not be embarrassed about is conquseting the world on Emperor level in 1405.

I'm getting ready for my 4th GOTM, and yet to win one of these things, even though I win, most of the time, in my own games. Go figure.

Anyway, great job.

RocknOats,

After the post-game festivities, you are given the options "lemme play a few more turns" or "get me outta here" (or something to those effects). Simply choose the "play a few more turns" option and save the game right there. That is the save you should be submitting.

If you destroy or capture the last city in 1405 AD, you get credit for the conquest victory in 1410 AD, which is the date of the actual save.

Hergrom

We accept games from the turn before or after victory. For losses it's impossible to keep playing on, and they should submit the turn before victory. For victories, it's easiest to check the saves that are from after the victory, but turns off the replay. Several players have taken to submitting a save from both before and after.

Ainwood has a utility that can turn the replay back on, and Dianthus and Ainwood are both working on replay utilities, so eventually it would be best if players submit all victories the turn after. For the time being, either or works.

Originally posted by scubagtr
Rabies

One thing to not be embarrassed about is conquseting the world on Emperor level in 1405.

I'm getting ready for my 4th GOTM, and yet to win one of these things, even though I win, most of the time, in my own games. Go figure.

Anyway, great job.

Thanks a ton. I am actually a little bit dissapointed with my performance this time around...after reading other reports. I neglected to get pottery and build a granary in my settler pump and thus I shot myself in the foot. While other had 14-21 cities by 1000 BC, I had 7. =( In the end, My Siphai were having to take out cities defended with Infantry....which succeded..but at a much slower rate than I had hoped. I wanted conquest well before 1400AD.

So I guess I reported my win date wrong when I submitted my file..should be 1410 ...not 1405..which drops my Jason score down by 20 points or so... :( I apologize for submitting incorrectly.

Ah yes! Thanks Hergrom. Hey, let me ask you something. Under your name you have the title "Khenpo". What box do you put that in under your options? I would like to change my chieftain to some kinda wise remark or goofy quote.

RockonOats,

Go to where you setup (user cp) the picture under your name. It is just a few lines below that.

Well, I'm off to see the Matrix Reloaded.

RocknOats,

a bit OT, but in your user profile, it is the Custom User Text box.

Hergrom

Oops, sorry about that. thanks for the info tho! I'll get back on track. . . I've started a practice game with the Spanish, and my first impression isn't too good. I'm not really comfortable with them. . .We will see how it turns out. I may just be making an excuse early!:rolleyes:

Yeah, the Spanish UU is just about worthless IMO, but I'm sure we will discuss it quite thoroughly once Cracker opens the GOTM#20 discussion.

So I guess I reported my win date wrong when I submitted my file..should be 1410 ...not 1405..which drops my Jason score down by 20 points or so... I apologize for submitting incorrectly.

We verify all the submissions, as this is a pretty common problem (not to mention input errors and the like). So don't worry about it. :)

Ancient Era report (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=972762#post972762)
Middle Ages report (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=964753#post964753)

I entered the Industrial Era in 460AD, getting Steam Power as my free tech. I had started another war with Carthage just a few turns prior, still trying to get a Leader for the FP. I had to make peace due to war weariness, and so started building up Sipahi for the final blow. I gifted everyone up to the Industrial era, in hopes one of them would finish Medicine while I took the middle branch.

The first 2 techs took me 6 turns each, then a 5 turn one. In 630AD I completed Newton's in Orangesodia, and was back on 4 turn techs even without a FP. I wasn't making any money though, so I finally gave in at 650AD and started building the FP about 8 tiles south of my capitol. It finished in 720AD.

About 650AD I started shipping Sipahi over to the other continent, keeping 15 or so to deal with Carthage. I signed a ROP with Spain, and used their roads/rails to hit Egypt in 690AD. I signed an alliance with Spain against Egypt. I also rolled over Carthage within a couple of turns, and sent those Sipahi to hit Rome. Egypt was booted off the mainland, and Spain took out their last two cities for me. In 800AD Rome landed 2 Legions in former Egypt, and cleaning them up I finally got my first Leader. Easily 40+ elite victories before then. I really didn't have anything to do with it at that point, but Universal Suffrage was available so I built it for a few extra content faces during the fighting.

I hadn't landed a lot of forces in Roman territory, so the going was pretty slow there. I did nab another Leader in 850AD, and saved him for the UN just so I didn't have to think about when to start the prebuild... ;)

I had planned on hitting China right after Egypt, but had to wait a few turns for deals to run out. In 780 I attacked China, with India and Spain as my allies. In 860AD China was eliminated, and Rome was down to 2 cities on the small east Island.

The only Tech the AI's got in the Industrial era was Nationalism. I used ToE to grab Radio and Flight in 1050AD, getting Computers as my free tech. Then Fission took 6 turns for me to research. In 1120AD Murad I rushed the UN, and in 1130AD Isabella voted for me over Ghandi and I won a Diplomatic victory with 8019 points.

I decided to make a final push and finish the game tonight as the end was inevitable ever since my first siphai landed on Roman soil. It's 2:40 local and I guess I'll be just a 'little' tired at tomorrows business meeting but I'll do.
I'm very proud of my time. A mere 22 hours (you can take about a couple of hours when I left the computer on to throw the garbage, get bread, clean up and others).
I was proud for a moment by my 9985 Jason score (new curve) but then realised how many mistakes I had made and that I won't rank that high. Darkness, I played the same condition, you did and exceeded your date 910AD but not your score 7913 ingame score.
I choose not to go to industrial age, slowed tech so much that in 910 I was most advanced with Mil tradition and Navigation and killed Celts and Carthage up to 200AD.
I also found it incredible that the Romans got 2 or 3 free settlers. In my game they also ceased expansion at ideal city number ???. They never got the island east of them. I was wondering what were they doing. They did culture and units, both in incredible amounts.
Overall a very nice game, can't wait to read what the other players did.
PS: Unfortunately there were several posts in the first thread that hinted that the second island was close by. All those people claiming knowledge of al civs by 1000BC up to 600BC. I was in 200BC when I read those, so I said why not and sent 1 (ONE) (my only) galley through the fog to find the Spaniards next turn. I think that I would not have looked for them as I was thinking of the other GOTM's where contact was difficult.

In the beginning - The Warrior the Hut show (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=972821#post972821)
Middle Ages - The war years (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=967018#post967018)

My later years were very quiet. I had sufficient infrastructure for fast research, and felt war would be a waste slowing me down with war weariness and what not. In this I was successful, and made it to the modern age (and diplo win in 1360) around 400 years earlier than ever before. I found the description fo Shillen's game very instructive as he tried the same strategy, but was 40 odd turns faster. So there is still a lot for me to learn :)

I have a feeling my score would have been higher if I had continued conquest, though my date would have been a bit later. Its kind of unfortunate: to maximize score one needs to constantly expand, yet once you reach a certain size more territory & cities are fairly useless due to corruption. Being more of a builder than a war-monger, I will often stop fighting when I reach the optimal city limits which means lesser scores.

OTOH, participating on this site has definitely been rewarding in terms of my skills. GOTM19 was SO much easier for me than GOTM18 (where I got so far behind in tech it wasn't funny), or GOTM17 (which was my first game of Civ in over a year). So other than a vague wish that Civ scoring was done somehow differently, it has been very positive experience. Kudos to all who put work into civfanatics. It is appreciated.

I am also hoping that GOTM20 will be a deity game so I can try one out. (Since we have gone regent-monarch-emperor I have hopes, though by the same logic it will be on a tiny map which seems unlikely :)

Also I would like to place a vote in favor of the changes to the Romans. It adds flavor to the game and I think adaptability is an important skill to have.

Sorry, I have wandered off topic. Here are my notes for the final act of my game:

750 AD: I am researching techs at 70-100% science for most of this period. This is mostly 4, 5 or rarely 6 turns. I would be at 80% if 80% and 100% where the same number of turns:

830 AD: Try for Smiths trading company, but get Newton's University instead.

1010 AD: Rome looks like it wants to go to war and attack Cadiz and Cirta. So I give the two towns back to Carthage to avoid the war. On subsequent turns it appears Rome does plan to attack. There is ominous boat movements. These cities are on the small island on the opposite side of Rome.

1030 AD: I get Universal Sufferage.

1050 AD: Get Theory of evolution which gets me electronics and replacable parts. I also get Hoover Dam at some point, but forgot to note when I did so in my notes.

1060 AD or so: Rome lands troops in my land and declares war. Before he does so I arrange mpp with all the other civs so they all attack Rome. Later these mpp's cause some minor trouble, but are great for now.

1160 AD: Capture Brundisium to keep Rome from using the coal near it. My one and only attack of the war is on the little island (the same one I gave away the 2 cities on). I consider attacking Romes main island, but decide against it as I don't want to deal with war weariness and reduced science.

Also 1160 AD: I get very lucky:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Greebley-ironworks.JPG
Coal happens to pop up next to my old capitol Sogut! So the two mountains you could move" warrior the hut" into on the first turn now have coal and iron. I now can get iron works in Sogut :)

1170 AD: Rome kills off Carthage. I take the second city on "coal island". This is Cadiz that I once had before. I make peace with Rome shortly afterward.

1220 AD or so: Egypt and Spain vs India and China breaks out on the main island. My mpp drags me in on the side of India and china. Rome joins the other side. The main effect of this war it to lessen my cash reserves since my gpt tech selling to Egypt and Spain is cancelled It does not slow down my research. They also become furious of course, but I still have a long way to go to Fission, so there it is not likely to complicate my diplo win.

1270 AD: or so: Egypt and Spain will talk peace. So I do so. I start bribing them with tech and a bit of gold. I also buy their allegiance vs Rome as rome is listed in 2nd place. My hope is to keep them mad at Rome and so won't vote for him.

1290 AD: I capture Nora on coal island and have kicked off the romans. I have Airlift now so it is a lot easier.

1335 AD: I get a great leader from the fights on coal island. I end the game with him unused.

1335 AD: Nora is taken back by the Romans.

1340 AD: Rome only has Nora for a turn. I take it back again. I
am airlifting tanks now.

1355 AD: I get fission. I switch the palace pre-build to the UN. I give the last two industrial techs and cash (20 gpt) to all players except Rome. They are already polite and gracious, but it can't hurt.

1360 Spain, China, India, and i vote for myself. Egypt votes for itself and Rome abstains (Egypt must have passed Rome very recently) A diplo win is mine.

Here is my ending mini-map for 1355:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Greebley-final.JPG

Since I'm very busy this month, I have no choice but to end my game early. I originally set out to do a full milk but I have to end it at 1240 AD. Hopefully, that would give me enough data to see if the new curve increase or decrease my score becuase I could easily end my game least one century sooner.

//Edit: I just found the link to the Jason Score Calculator and it said that I got 10372 points on the new curve. That wasn't too bad for a quick game.:)

After searching for a good place to settle, Sogut was established in 3950BC. After raising a few warriors to out and explore, preparations were made for building a granary once Pottery was learned. From then, Sogut became a settler and worker factory with its daughter cities producing warriors, improvements and more workers.

Contact was soon made with the Kelts and the Carthaginians, and knowledge traded as much as possible. Apart from an annoying run of pillaging by Picts & horsemen, things went smoothly.

Construction of the Pyramids was started as soon as possible, however Carthage won that race by a few turns. Fortunately the
accumulated effort could be directed into the Great Library, which was completed soon afterwards. This decision turned out to be the key event for the whole game.

From that point onwards, Ottoman research was suspended and all effort was put into cultural and commercial improvements, rushed by the judicious application of cash once a republic was declared. Contact was made with other civilizations as early as possible, and technology learned through the Great Library was on-sold to other civilizations for whatever they could offer. The military was kept up-to-date and adequate for defence, with only a modest offensive capability.

Good relations with our neighbours was maintained through the sale of technology and luxuries, and the granting of right-of-passage. This kept Ottomania out of the sporadic wars that regularly erupted to the south and over on the Eastern continent. During this period, three Kelt cities petitioned to become part of Ottomania.

By the time education made the Great Library obsolete, Ottomania was a commercial and cultural powerhouse. Works in progress were immediately diverted to building Universities, rushed with cash when possible. From that point onwards, Ottomania never lost its technical lead.

Our first war was started in the late middle ages when the Spaniards took an irrational dislike to us. Not a smart move by Izzy. Our brilliant Ottoman generals, leading our Balkan Cavalry, confiscated a few Spanish cities before granting peace to a chastened Spanish government.

This triggered our Golden Age, which saw the completion of Sun Tzu's academy, Adam Smith's Company, and Shakespeare's Theatre as well as the faster construction of further city improvements. The completion of the Theory of Evolution and the frantic railroading of Ottomania cemented our technological lead, with the cash earned from technology sales accumulating at a very satisfactory rate.

The end of civilization (as our neighbours knew it, that is) came quite quickly. When the new technology of Motorised Transport was shown to the Glorious Suleyman, some thing strange happened to our great and noble leader. He ceased to be Suleyman the Wise, Suleyman the Cultured and Suleyman the Peaceful. Overnight he became Suleyman the Rabid, Suleyman the Terrible, or even Suleyman the Complete Fruitcake.

Provoking the Kelts to declare war by sending spies into their lands, the tanks of Suleyman the Insanely Fierce crushed the Kelts within just a few turns. Brennus hardly knew what hit him before he found himself languishing in a dungeon deep in the Topkapi palace.

Caesar of the Romans, lacking even tiniest speck of common sense, declared war against Ottomania under their mutual protection pact with the Kelts. Less then a dozen turns later, that same Caesar was paraded in chains through the streets of Sogut on his way to his prison cell.

Suleyman the Fruit Loop grew even bolder in his thirst for conquest. Out of sympathy for Brennus and Caesar, he decided that they needed some feminine company. A handful of turns later Hannabeline checked in to what was quickly becoming Suleyman's Underground Menagerie of Surplus World Leaders. But there were still a few vacant cells ...

Suleyman the Loopy rested his war machine at this point. Building airports in his key cities, he airlifted many of his tanks to his ex-Spanish cities on the Eastern continent, and ferried his now well seasoned tanks from the former Roman island to prepare for his final campaign.

A few turns later, having mastered Rocketry and Synthetic Fibres, Suleyman splurged his treasury on upgrading his tanks to modern armour. From that point on it was like spearfishing in a bucket. Not much challenge, and finished rather quickly.

The eastern continent was about to become a wasteland. Isabelle was next. Her troops put up a valiant struggle for a few turns, but pitting modern armour against infantry, cavalry, muskets and spears was a little one sided. She soon booked into a cell next to Hannabeline. Cleopatra must have been packing her bags in anticipation, since she was aboard the next prison barge back to Ottomania.

Ghandi took a few turns longer to subdue, as his remoter cities were hidden amongst the forests, mountains and tundra of the far north-west. Even armour is slowed by that sort of terrain. But soon he too was comfortably settled into his reserved cell, next door to Caesar and Brennus.

Finally it was Mao's turn. With around fifty modern armour advancing on his cities, he too started to prepare for his new lodgings as a guest of Suleyman the Savage. Three or four turns of one-sided warfare saw Mao bundled off to Sogut in order to complete Suleyman the Strange's bizarre collection. What Suleyman the Just Downright Weird planned to do with his complete set of monarchs nobody dared to speculate. But they were never to be seen again ... or not until game 20 anyway.

One of the more amusing things to emerge from the task of laying waste of the eastern continent was the sight of naked and tattooed Pictish warriors emerging from the rubble. These savages would appear from nowhere using the left-over railway network, then suicidally hurl themselves at the passing columns of modern armour. Presumably they hoped to disable these tanks by spearing them up their gun barrels. This was not a very successful strategy, and one that usually led to smallish pieces of Pict being dispersed over the surrounding countryside.

Strangely, this game did not see any civilizations eliminated until Suleyman turned loopy. Suleyman ended up being the only one to wear the bad karma of genocide. Perhaps my PC just wore a calm and peaceful aura this month.

While many wars erupted over the years, none of them were conclusive. The civs on the Eastern continent remained fairly evenly balanced, and there was none of the "ganging up" that one usually sees from the AI. This meant that none of these civs were large enough or well enough organised to be a serious rival or threat to Ottomania. Only Rome and Carthage came close to that, and that only until the late middle ages. If Carthage had taken out the Kelts or vice-versa, or one civ had dominated the eastern continent, then my game would have been radically different.

Overall, a conquest victory in 1670 with Suleyman declared to be "Magnificent" by the Prophet Sid, and awarded 4641 points. Saint Jason disagreed with this parsimonious allocation, giving Suleyman 6389 points. A jolly good show all round and compliments to Cracker and team for a well devised game. Next time perhaps I will be a bit more daring and unleash my generals a little earlier - and inject a lot more risk into my game.

A better performance I think than my first GOTM entry in game 17. I was away on holidays last month so sadly my GOTM 18 effort was finished too late.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f

How I won is still a mystery to me. I stayed on my 1/2 of the island the whole game and never could build up what I considered a large enough force to defeat Cathage. The Celts went down quickly and no one else (except a Roman force of 2 legions) stepped on the island. I was behind 1/2 way through the middle ages when I realized that by trading my lux I could get gold, which I used for gpt for techs. By researching a few the AI wasn't seemingly going after, I was able to trade those for even bigger gpt. Next (yes it seemed long and drawn out to me as well) I was able to research at a loss due to my positive gold balance amd pull ahead of the AI. Once I was ahead i focused on the techs needed for the space ship, trading techs for gpt keeping the AI from researching due to their gpt they owed me. Once I took the lead, I was able to keep it simply be trading what ever techs I got for gpt. I launched in 1792. I'll keep typing after the laughter has died down....

My mistakes...still have a builder thought process and aren't quite aggressive enough esp in the beginning. I plan on looking at what other did in great detail.

I still need help with my opening play (kind of like my chess playing..) but I'm working on that.

Thanks Cracker and all at GOTM...looking forward to next month. Anyone got hints on how to play the Spanish?

Originally posted by scubagtr
Yeah, the Spanish UU is just about worthless IMO, but I'm sure we will discuss it quite thoroughly once Cracker opens the GOTM#20 discussion.

I think the Spanish UU is a very dangerous unit in the game. How on earth can we possibly protect ourselves against something that can move 6 squares inside our border? Anyway, I was glad that Spain didn't build any of them in my GOTM19.

I have never played AS the spanish..so I am still unsure what to do with their UU...but I have played plenty of games AGAINST the spanish..and Moonsinger is partially right. The 6 move inside your border is Incredibly frustrating....they can get to places in your border you would normally never think of defending. Luckily, they are not very damaging beyond that. Now I just need to figure out how to use this to my advantage...

Friends and Neighbors,

Let's hold the rest of this Spanish discussion for the thread that will open later in the month for the Spain pregame discussion. It is sort of venturing off topic here, plus there will be lots of issues like this to discuss when the appropriate topic is opened.

One thing you might focus on here in the context of the Gotm19-Ottomans game as a really good wrap-up discsuuion topic would be:

"How do you identify who is weak and strong around you and how do you prioritize your strategic options to increase your chances of victory in the game appropriately targeting or using the rivals around you?"

Originally posted by cracker
One thing you might focus on here in the context of the Gotm19-Ottomans game is:

"How do you identify who is weak and strong around you and how do you prioritize your strategic options to increase your chances of victory in the game appropriately targeting or using the rivals around you?"

That's easy :p
Celts were my closest neighbour. That was their main weakness so I took Entrement rather quickly. Carthage were on the same landmass with me. That was an important weakness, plus the one that they had larger cities (celts were down to size one cities only) so I took Chartage and made my FP there (leader around 800BC :p ). Then I finished them both as they were embarrasingly weak :rocket:
Romans were the only ones I could reach so I targeted them next. But they were not weak at all:aargh:
I started a contest on the other continent to see who is weak and who is strong. Semifinal one India vs China. India won. SEmifinal two Egipt vs Spain. Egypt won. The great final India vs Egypt. It seemed to be a close call so I landed, took the remains of China and Spain and then kicked the Egyptians.:mwaha:
I would have kicked India too, seriously I would have but the game ended.

Celts were weak due to there poor development. I bought 2 slaves from them in the QSC period and they never really got any new workers out. With all that jungle I knew they were ripe for the pickens.

Carthage was weak when I saw Nubs in the industrial times and had a good feeling about my Sipahi.

Taking India was more of a time killer to pass the time until I launched but I knew they had zero rubber and would be no match for my Horses and my tanks that were about to come online. I think if I had a militaristic mind I may have pushed harder to take China and Egypt for similar reasons. I had the resources they did not.

I pretty much left Rome and Spain alone and let them pay me for tech keeping my tech pace up.

Basically I took my best offensive units and compared that with what I knew was the best AI defensive unit and struck when the time was right. The Sipahi is very effective against rifles and to some degree with enough of them infantry. The period when Sipahi had to go against infantry is limited (before tanks) so I didn't even fight any infantry units with Sipahi at all and choose my targets to avoid that matchup.

From my limited experience with Sipahi they effectively extend the offensive period where normal cavalry are best used. Using cavs a against rifles is akin to using swords vs. pikes a fair fight but not the best odds without having overwelming numbers. Similar things can be said for knight vs. muskets etc.

By timing the attacks correctly a stack of Sipahi can walk through a civ using muskets.

Originally posted by cracker
One thing you might focus on here in the context of the Gotm19-Ottomans game as a really good wrap-up discsuuion topic would be:

"How do you identify who is weak and strong around you and how do you prioritize your strategic options to increase your chances of victory in the game appropriately targeting or using the rivals around you?"

Well from the start I had planned to take over one civ early to palace jump. From our position in the world there was really no choice but the Celts. Carthage was just too far away. The Celt position wasn't that great for going to war with them though. Having to wade through that jungle really slowed the war down. The jungle also kept them relatively small and weak but I'd prefer if they had good land since it would end up being my core. Of course jungle is pretty good after you clear it, but just takes so long to clear.

When I first got the world map I took a look at the civ's and knew Rome was the strongest one. Tons of rivers, nice land, more land overall than anyone else but myself. The monopoly on ivory was huge as well. That would insure they had good income throughout the game by trading their ivory to other civ's. I made sure to always trade Rome all the luxuries I could and I practically never took gpt from them. I wanted them keeping their science slider set high, and it seemed to work.

I also expected Spain and Egypt to be strong too though. Spain had carved out a lot of territory for themselves by an ancient age war with India. I'm not sure why they didn't do any research for me. They were at war with India for a lot of the industrial age and modern age so I can understand there. At first I was letting Spain keep their gpt, until they went to war in the Industrial Age and they still hadn't gotten any techs for me, so I started charging them gpt.

I'm not sure what happened with Egypt either. They had a lot of nice land, but they just couldn't manage to research anything. Possibly they were always researching in the wake of Rome and Rome just happened to learn everything a turn or two sooner, I don't know. Egypt also went to war in the early modern age. Around the same time as Spain I started taking gpt from Egypt as well. They just weren't doing anything for me.

Carthage did pretty well research-wise, if only on non-required techs. I didn't really expect that, they got off to a slow start. I guess it's just the fact that they were pretty isolated from the rest of the world so they never went to war and probably didn't even build up a big military. I never took gpt from Carthage either and tried to make sure to trade them luxuries and coal.

I'll know better next time I go for a fast tech game. Not every civ will be able to research for you. Most of the time they're probably researching the same tech and only the very best civ is going to end up getting it. But on the other hand it was good that China/Carthage got a few optional techs so that Rome avoided them the entire game. So next time I'll probably just keep the best two civ's caught up with me in techs. Meanwhile I'll drain all money from the other civ's, not trade them lux's, and keep them as backwards as possible. Then I can conquer them with superior units even if my army is small.

Towards the end of the game I actually had over 5000 gold for quite some time. I was holding onto it just in case I needed it. But I never did. I could easily have rushed a ton of military units and gone off conquering. I guess I was just averse to conquering other continents. My last game I did that in was gotm17 and the civ's were so far apart it just took me like 20 turns just to reach another civ. So I felt like I didn't have any time to conquer in this game either. But I guess that was a bit unfounded. You could reach the other continent in one turn in this game.

After my incidental tresspassing, I did manage to end and submit my game : Space Race victory in 1963 ! :)
I should be quite happy with that, but after reading all these spoilers I'm actually trying not to be discouraged by ending so late. :( If it's an excuse : I had to build two spaceships, after my first one, ready to go, was nuked back to the middle ages by the Romans. :mad:
I'll have to get better at this game, if only to be able to finish sooner (in real time, I mean).

Originally posted by cracker
..<snip>...
"How do you identify who is weak and strong around you and how do you prioritize your strategic options to increase your chances of victory in the game appropriately targeting or using the rivals around you?"
Well, can't say anything that Shillen hasn't said already. Cracker's comments in GOTM18 made me check the rivers, and now I'm checking for luxuries that the AI might claim.
I'm not at the level yet where I can use this information to build a strategy, hence a quest for more information :

Originally posted by Shillen
...When I first got the world map I took a look at the civ's and knew Rome was the strongest one. Tons of rivers, nice land, more land overall than anyone else but myself. The monopoly on ivory was huge as well. That would insure they had good income throughout the game by trading their ivory to other civ's. I made sure to always trade Rome all the luxuries I could and I practically never took gpt from them. I wanted them keeping their science slider set high, and it seemed to work...
If you sponsor a civ like that, what makes you sure you won't become backwards yourself ? And does your statement above mean that you sometimes gave luxuries away for free or almost for free ??
I think that's one of the biggest differences between top players and average players : being in control of the game, rather than having it happen to you. So, how do you get to that point of control ?

Originally posted by Shillen
...So next time I'll probably just keep the best two civ's caught up with me in techs. Meanwhile I'll drain all money from the other civ's, not trade them lux's, and keep them as backwards as possible. Then I can conquer them with superior units even if my army is small...
Isn't there an advantage in granting everyone free techs ? If you bring them to the same tech-level as yourself, your tech becomes cheaper, no ? And you're researching faster anyhow, so there's little risk involved.

How did people in general deal with the 4-civ continent ? I wanted to keep the continent divided by having four equally strong civ's, so I helped the weaker ones (well, not always, I set everyone up against India). The idea of one civ controlling all that land seemed too dangerous to me.

After eliminating the Romans, My forces landed on the big continent in 800AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Ronald_gotm19_800AD.jpg

My Sipahies took out the Spanish and the Indians without any problems at all. By 990 AD I was very close to the domination limit:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Ronald_gotm19_990AD.jpg

Now I continued my culture build up and achieved a cultural victory (100k) in 1580AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Ronald_gotm19_1580AD.jpg

This is 9 turns prior to the optimum date of the Jason calculator.
I could have reached the goal about 10 to 15 turns earlier when I would have stopped researching in 990AD, but I was worried about late wars, so I researched until replacable parts to get infantry (it's almost invulnerable untill tanks, and nobody could research so far).
At the end I had 158 cities with libraries and temples, about 130 cities with universities and all the core cities with all possible cultural improvements. Giving me about 1300 culture a turn.

This game gave me civ score of 8625 and a Jason score of 10084 with the new curve (it would have been 11624 with the old curve!) After seeing this huge difference, I played around with the new Jason calculator and have several questions which I am going to address later in this thread.

Ronald

I don't know if this is the right thread to address this issue, but since we should not start a new thread with spoilers of the current gotm, I put it here. If you want to remove it to a special thread cracker, please do it:

Some notes before the facts:
I like playing cultural victories and this game (gotm19) I played one my best so far. Therefore, I was really annoyed, that with the new curve, these games score less than before, so I am biased.

Nevertheless, I think i have some points.

While discussing the new curve in another thread, Aeson said, that scores around 1600 AD werre too high so he adjusted the curve.
If this is the case I concluded, that every victory condition should now be lower around 1600AD with the new curve,but it is not:

Victory at 1600AD with civ points of 8500 give:

old curve new curve
conquest 9057 9647
20k 12219 9969
100k 11414 9917
diplo 9150 9664
domination 8838 9606
space race 9694 9747

So the new curve gives more points to victories after the otpimum turn than the old curve. Especially cultural games are now a lot less worth than before. Since I played a cultural game, you can imagine, that I am relly annoyed.

If all games would score less at 1600. I think Aeson would have a point, but since all games beside cultural games are even scoring higher, I think it can't be right.


Now I was checking how the different civtories do art their optimal date with the same civ score (civ score 8500 at he optimal date published in the Jason calculator gotm 19):

old curve new curve
conquest 9842 10595
20k 11223 9500
100k 11269 9835
diplo 10049 10660
domination 9307 10405
space race 11032 10920

Again the same pattern, cultural games are now scoring the lowest. Why?

Looking at the published data of finished games, I came across some very strange things:

Moonsingers game (no offense to you moonsinger, I admire your milking skills) with domination in 1240!!! and a civ score of 8148 scores higher than a domination win in 960 with a civ score of 8017 (I forgot whose game it was) and also higher than Aesons game with a diplo win much closer to the best date and compared to my cultural game beating the best date.

Looking at this scores, I believe we have a lot to do to come up with a better scoring system.

Ronald

Originally posted by Ronald
Moonsingers game (no offense to you moonsinger, I admire your milking skills) with domination in 1240!!! and a civ score of 8148 scores higher than a domination win in 960 with a civ score of 8017 (I forgot whose game it was) and also higher than Aesons game with a diplo win much closer to the best date and compared to my cultural game beating the best date.

No offense taken!:) You do have a very good point there; I have been wondering about that myself. The domination win in 1240 with Firaxis score of 8148 should not have a higher Jason score than a domination win in 960 with Firaxis score of 8017. If you take (8148 - 8017), the different is only 131 points in 28 extra turns. Basically, I think you just found the trouble spot of the new curve.

Are you talking base score or base+bonus? Remember that the Firaxis bonus is not used at all (except to nullify itself from the final score). The base score for those two games would be 4098 and 2567, with only a difference of 28 extra turns. Looks a lot different in that perspective right? It's a difference in turns of 239:211 (1.13) vs a difference in score of 4098:2567 (1.6). The question is, could the lower base score have been brought up with 28 extra turns easier than the later date being brought down without sacrificing all of those 1500 points?

The answer depends on the map, and on this one, I think it would be somewhat close, but the higher scoring game looks a bit better to me from these stats than the faster finish. I know my score was skyrocketing by the end of my game, and I probably could have scored a good bit higher by letting my new population (still growing pretty fast) 'top out'. But I don't think I could have made up 1500 base score in ~30 turns, and the inverse holds true, I could have finished ~30 turns earlier (given better luck and planning) and not given up 1500 points.

I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced, there certainly are 'best' times to finish the game from map to map, and that will vary depending on many things (landform, immediate terrain, proximity of AI civs, luck, ect.). Given a consistant level of gameplay, that variation is currently at ~9% with the new curve, and ~20% with the old. ('extreme' maps like GOTM17 will see more/less variation using most any curve developed for 'normal' maps)

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As for cultural games scoring 'lower', yes, they score lower than they would have with the old curve. That is because they scored much higher than they should have with the old curve. In fact, any victory condition with a best date around 1600AD would (the range was actually ~1200AD-1800AD for the 'worst' discrepancy). The old curve was the furthest off at that date, and the best date portion of the calculations was using that discrepancy and amplifying it. So basically, any victory condition at that date would have scored more (relative to skill/luck) than it would at say, 1000AD (or any date outside that 'off' range). And any victory condition with a best date around that date would have scored more (relative to skill/luck) than at 1000AD too. In GOTM18, a cultural game around the best date was off in both regards, both the curve and the best dates were giving it too much of a boost.

Victory at 1600AD with civ points of 8500 give:

old curve new curve
conquest 9057 9647
20k 12219 9969
100k 11414 9917
diplo 9150 9664
domination 8838 9606
space race 9694 9747

Look at the numbers you posted though. At a given date/score, cultural games (or any condition where the 'best' date is later) will score more than the earlier victory conditions with the new curve. It's just not a huge amount like it was with the old curve.

Now I was checking how the different civtories do art their optimal date with the same civ score (civ score 8500 at he optimal date published in the Jason calculator gotm 19):

old curve new curve
conquest 9842 10595
20k 11223 9500
100k 11269 9835
diplo 10049 10660
domination 9307 10405
space race 11032 10920

Using the same score at the best date for all victory conditions (as long as they are different dates) is going to result in bad statistics because it is relying on Firaxis' bonus system to balance score out between dates, which it certainly doesn't do very well. If it was anywhere near balanced, there wouldn't be any need to have a new scoring system. Even if you ignore that, of course later victory conditions are going to score less in the Jason scoring system if they've kept the same score. Like you both said, a game with X score at an early date should score more than a game with X score at a later date.

I just replayed my game from the saves and I could have achieved a domination victory at any date from 1100 AD on by just taking one city. At best in 1210, I would have got a new Jason score of 10435, which is much higher than the best cultural victory in 1580 with 10084 Jason score.
I think that the cultural victory I achieved is a much better game than the domination I could get in 1210, but it is not reflected in the new Jason curve.

If I had concentrated on domination, I could have got much much earlier, but from the beginning I wanted a 100k cultural victory and now I see that this victory is scoring less with the new curve and I have not received an explanation why.

Your have not adressed and explained the fact, that every other victory than 20k and 100k cultural score less and the others more with the new curve at 1600 AD, so I still express my doubts about the validity of the new Jason system

Ronald

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Added testing data:

Now again my testing: all at 1600AD, all with 8500 civ points

.................old curve.....................new curve
conquest.....9057..........................9647
20k............12219..........................9969
100k..........11414..........................9917
diplo............9150..........................966 4
domination..8838..........................9606
space race..9694...........................9747

If I understand correctly, since it is all at the same date with the same civ points, basescore should be the same for all games and it should be the same basescore for the old and the new curve, since the curve does not influence the basescore. (Basescore= (2050-Playerscore)*difficulty) I could not find how to calculate playerscore, it was either not mentioned on the site or I didn't see it.

Originally posted by Aeson
Are you talking base score or base+bonus? Remember that the Firaxis bonus is not used at all (except to nullify itself from the final score). The base score for those two games would be 4098 and 2567, with only a difference of 28 extra turns. Looks a lot different in that perspective right? It's a difference in turns of 239:211 (1.13) vs a difference in score of 4098:2567 (1.6). The question is, could the lower base score have been brought up with 28 extra turns easier than the later date being brought down without sacrificing all of those 1500 points?

Thanks for the explaination!:) I should have known better next time to ask if it was a base score, base score plus Firaxis bonus, or just simply Jason score.

Originally posted by Ambiorix.
If you sponsor a civ like that, what makes you sure you won't become backwards yourself ? And does your statement above mean that you sometimes gave luxuries away for free or almost for free ??
I think that's one of the biggest differences between top players and average players : being in control of the game, rather than having it happen to you. So, how do you get to that point of control ?

It's hard to say really. It's funny because if I had played this game even 2 months ago I would have had a totally different outlook. But over the last two months I've been playing deity mostly and winning. So emperor is like a step back and I just know I can take control of the game right away and keep control. I know that doesn't help you out that much, but I can't really explain it any better. I guess it's just getting better at managing your build priorities, AI trades, science/luxury slider, etc.

And yes I gave away my luxuries. I had plenty of money throughout the game and having excess luxuries doesn't help me at all. I might as well give them away and see if the other civ's can make use of them and help me out. So basically whenever I had a spare luxury I gave it away to whoever I thought could make the best use of it.

]Originally posted by Ambiorix.
Isn't there an advantage in granting everyone free techs ? If you bring them to the same tech-level as yourself, your tech becomes cheaper, no ? And you're researching faster anyhow, so there's little risk involved.

No, my techs don't get cheaper by gifting techs around. I'm always researching undiscovered techs. That means I'm researching at monopoly price.

Yes I research faster than the AI, but as long as I'm gifting techs that gives the AI's up to date defensive units. With a fast tech pace strategy I'm constantly building infrastructure to maintain the fast tech pace and that results in being unable to produce as much military. If I leave civ's behind in tech though, I don't need a large military in order to conquer them. An example...if I wanted to do a late industrial age war. I have about 20 tanks. The AI has infantry and will get mech infantry soon though. I'd probably only be able to take 3-4 cities with my tanks before I run out. But if the AI was defending with riflemen, or even better musketmen, then I could easily steamroll their entire empire with just that stack of 20 tanks.

Originally posted by Ambiorix
How did people in general deal with the 4-civ continent ? I wanted to keep the continent divided by having four equally strong civ's, so I helped the weaker ones (well, not always, I set everyone up against India). The idea of one civ controlling all that land seemed too dangerous to me.

First off -- congrats on your win!

I finished my game in the middle ages - the post is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=987708#post987708) with a domination win. So there really wasn't much dealing-with to do in my case, other than trying to keep the whole continent as backwards as possible by withholding contacts until after Carthage had built the Lighthouse. The 2nd continent in my game was *not* balanced. When I met them around 500-ish BC, India was already putting the hammer down on Spain (Spain was gone in the first half of the first millennium AD). India then declared war on Egypt the turn before my own Sipahis arrived, and certainly would have made short work of the Egyptian resistance if I hadn't gotten everywhere first. (The replay showed India getting a settler from a hut, and it seemed to be the difference that turned them into the 800-lb gorilla on that continent in my game.) They could conceivably have been dangerous in the late game if I'd been going for a different type of win.

In general, though, I think your strategy is a good one. If you're not in a position to 'play' the AI the way Shillen did, then your best bet is to try to keep any one civ from dominating, just as you did.

Renata

I am just using Aeson's post as a marker point to indicate the point at which I split off the general discussion of New Currve -vs- Old Curve scoring issues and moved them to the appropriate discussion thread titled:
Changing the Curve (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52429)

This is one of those tough discussion issues that get driven by timing of events. Ronald wants to discuss this scoring issue NOW using real data from his Gotm19 game and that is an OK thing to do but needs to recognize that many or even the majority of other players are not finished with the game. If we could be patient, this same discussion really would belong in the open discussion of the scoring issues while for the most part it would be out of place here.

Remember, that the discussion of the current game should make an honest effort to discuss issues specific to that game without getting too far sidetracked into general issues. This is sometimes a hard call to make.

Don't know if you're interested but I'm adding my own scores to the list. Domination victory in 910AD, Firaxis score: 7813; Jason score 9987. I checked my score at 710 AD just to see the difference. 710AD, Base score 1528, potential Jason score 10252 but I was missing half a world for domination.

I too, finished earlier then Moonsinger and Darkness and got an even lower score. I would need to see the score structure (Happy/ specialists / territory) but I suspect that railroading gave a boost to Moonsinger's and Darkness's population, one that would exceed the Jason points lost due to a later date. My detailed base scores were 910 AD - (670, 52, 1391) ; 710AD - (402, 48, 1078).

Following Ronald's experiment I realised that scores are close for any victory type while, marginally (10%) favouring victories before the target date. So it would not make much of a difference what victory condition do you choose after the latest date, the score would be similar. Was that the aim Aeson?

I have a feeling that this discussion would continue and needs to be moved in a separate thread.

Yndy, I agree with you here and have moved the related non-spoiler discussion to the "Changing the Curve" thread where I belive it should properly be with references to actual Games score results from Gotm19 here if necessary.

Edit: Just made some trials to see how would my Jason score modify should I have delayed