This month will be a little bit of a challenge for us in the pregame discussion because we have the option for players to Play in one of the three different intensity Classes will playing in the same game.

The CONQUEST class game has additional starting bonuses that should not become the topic of discussion here if at all possible. Try keep the discussion of those CONQUEST bonuses over in teh specific discussion area where you can focus on how you might use those bonuses to get you on pace with the main strategic challenges that will be discussed here.

It is not possible for you to begin play at this time but you can strategize together about what you think you would do in the main strategic challenges of game.

This process should allow all the players to look over the setup instructions for the game and discuss what they think these instructions mean without the risk of any real spoiler information. Since none of the players will be able to start the game, essentially all you will have available to support your discussion will be past GOTM results and strategy articles.

The rules for participation in this discussion thread are simple:

1) read the game announcement and get yourself set up to play the game when the save game is released to you.

2) barbarian features in this game have been announced and encountered in previous GOTM games so you may freely discuss anything you feel that would be appropriate for pre-game planning.

3) Once you download the starting save game file and open it to begin play you may no longer participate in this discussion thread.

I plan to leave this thread open to support pregame discussion for any players who have not yet opened the starting save game file but if we have any players who violate this rule the discussion will be closed.

Again there is a great deal going on inside and around this month's game, but at the core of the process the game is simple and fun. Read the instructions and you will have a good time.

Be warned also that the first spoiler discussion will not open until June 5th.

The first spoiler discussion will require you to have full visibility of the world map of your starting continent. You can be certain that one of the conditions for participation in the first spoiler thread will be that you must have gained enough technology knowledge to enter the middle ages even if you may not be allowed to discuss everything you might know up to that point in time.

Here is your link to the

Game Announcement Page for Gotm20-Spain (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm20_spain.shtml)

Good luck in your quest to survive the dark ages and emerge as the enlightened conquerers of the new world.

Just an added note about resource graphics files for this game.

Every player has the option to choose from three versions of resource graphics that are 1) plain and almost standard, 2) increased visibility with Letters and Smilie facesm, or 3) enhnced visibility plus letters plus similies plus bonus food/shield/gold blips.

You may choose which versions you use and you may switch as often as you like.

For the PTW players this process is fairly easy.

For the Civ3v1.29 players the process is still easy but you do have to read the instructions and pay attention when switch between the Gotm20 game and other games of Civ3. Civ3v1.29 does not have the ability to switch graphics back and forth automatically for you, so you have to remember to do this manually when you switch games.

I apologize in advance for any inconvenience that this swapping causes, but it seems to be one of the offshoots of other issues that we are trying our best to mitigate so that all players can continue to play the games.

If you have any questions about the resource graphics or any other aspects of the game you may feel free to email me at gotm@civfanatics.net if I can help you in any way.

Buena suerte en el juego,

Cracker de Ortiz Jesus Josephina Santos y Sandoval

Well that's a pretty sweet start for a commercial civ :)

Lots of river tiles and lots of food. Seems to be pretty well setup as a worker/settler factory even without a granary. I think I shall settle right there and start roading either S or SE depending on what is revealed. Any nearby bonuses can benefit my 2nd city.

This will be my first attempt at Deity and I'm looking forward to the challenge.


regards

Ted

Originally posted by cracker
Every player has the option to choose from three versions of resource graphics that are 1) plain and almost standard, 2) increased visibility with Letters and Smilie facesm, or 3) enhnced visibility plus letters plus similies plus bonus food/shield/gold blips.

I would like a version with blips but without the letters / smilies.

Religious missionaries from the Franciscan, Dominican, and Jeronymite orders were given imperial powers of audit and compliance to assure that the conquered peoples where converted into pious Catholics instead of just gratuitously slaughtered by the Conquistadors.

Could this mean that defeated units are captured and "drafted," rather than eliminated? Too radical, right? Or is it a reduction in corruption even greater than the standard commercial trait? Or is it just interesting color commentary from our resident historian?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm20_start.jpg

This start has very poor shield production. The flood plains are a mixed blessing, they provide faster growth but no shields and carry the risk of disease. Note that pop rushing is a bad idea, you can convert food to shields without unhappiness by working the forest.

Using the tiles currently visible, it is impossible to make a 4-turn or even 5-turn settler factory. A 5-turn factory would be possible with a wheat, cattle, or bonus grassland in the city radius. A 4-turn factory requires a bonus grassland AND a cattle or flood plain wheat. Building any settler factory requires a painful 60 shield investment in a granary.

Because of the risk of disease, I won't "put all my eggs in one basket" by building an early granary. I might change my mind if a 4-turn settler factory is possible, but I will still build a settler first to give my non-industrious worker time to improve the terrain.

I hope there are some bonus tiles around, so I probably will send my worker to the hill NE. Depending what it shows then I have several options with my settler: stay, move W or move SW.
One or two shield producing tiles will be important for a good balance of food and shields

The top left looks like the river turns east around that hill, or leads to a coast. I'm leaning towards a coast since right beside that hill is some tundra, and rivers don't go thru tundra.

So I assume that puts us at or near the top edge.

I might consider moving the settler northeast to the hill, only because of the hill. A move west or southwest to get some more variety in tiles and more river tiles. Any move south or southeast will likely get more desert tiles in the radius which is no good. I'd guess at this point that we have at least one, on the east side of the river, if we move southwest, we would switch that to the west side.
Its highly likely that there is a wheat flood plain tile nearby if the flood plains go on further south. As a educated guess I'd say its already within range two tiles southeast. Moving the worker to the hill would spot it, if so.

Despite the good food and shields we get just irrigating, the tundra to the north and the desert to the south makes this seem like a pretty poor start. I generally don't like flood plains myself, that is ever since pop-rushing was destroyed so completely.


Edit:

On second look, maybe its my inexperience with the default tile set, it now does simply seem to be more coast with the beach. I use snoopy's terrain which doesn't have such bright beachs, or as extensive either.

Using the tiles currently visible, it is impossible to make a 4-turn or even 5-turn settler factory. A 5-turn factory would be possible with a wheat, cattle, or bonus grassland in the city radius.

I tend to not look under the shadow, but doesn't the WSW tile look like a forest? If so, wouldn't the two forests provide enough extra shields to create a settler factory, in conjunction with the plains and floodplains?

This leads me to a question that I can't answer for myself, and which has helped to keep me from expanding quickly at the start. Four- or five-turn factories require anywhere from three to five pop for optimization - how do you calculate how many citizens are required? Is it simply adding up how to reach 40 wheat and 30 shields as quickly as possible, factoring in growth and improvements? If so, are there any experience-based shortcuts?

Originally posted by Smirk
The top left looks like the river turns east around that hill, or leads to a coast. I'm leaning towards a coast since right beside that hill is some tundra, and rivers don't go thru tundra.

So I assume that puts us at or near the top edge.


I agree it looks like a coast there, but how can you tell there is tundra? It looks like plains to me..

-------------------

cracker informs us on the info page:
"The Goody Hut benefits for you as the Human player included one additional technology that we have assigned to be "The Wheel" as well as 25 additional gold units for your treasury. (Players in the Predator Class game do not begin with these two hut benefits.)"

Hopefully my warriors will make contact soon and with the "right civs". The wheel can be valuable to keep up in the early tech chase.

10 rival civs..... on a standard sized map...... on diety...... we don't
need treasure chests. We need NUKES!!:help:

The spanish UU seems to be difficult to use effectively: An expensive week knight (3.2.2) 70 shields with an actual movement of 6! They come available quite late (navigation). Are they of any use?(destroy roads, capture crucial resources etc.)

What would be best strategies to take advantage of them?

Comments welcome

Ronald

Originally posted by Txurce
I tend to not look under the shadow, but doesn't the WSW tile look like a forest? If so, wouldn't the two forests provide enough extra shields to create a settler factory, in conjunction with the plains and floodplains?

This leads me to a question that I can't answer for myself, and which has helped to keep me from expanding quickly at the start. Four- or five-turn factories require anywhere from three to five pop for optimization - how do you calculate how many citizens are required? Is it simply adding up how to reach 40 wheat and 30 shields as quickly as possible, factoring in growth and improvements? If so, are there any experience-based shortcuts?

Yes, I factored in that second forest.

I'm putting together an article on tile management, but it will take a few more days. Here is the chart I used to calculate net shields and food from each tile (minus citizen upkeep) in an attempt to build a 5-turn settler factory. Assuming a granary, we need 10 food for growth and 30 shields for a settler.


Size 5, Turn 1
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
---
+5 food, +3 shields

Size 5, Turn 2
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields (forest) <--- growth bonus
---
+5 food, +5 shields

Size 6, Turns 1-2
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
--
+3 food, +6 shields
+3 food, +6 shields

Size 6, Turn 3
+2 food, +2 shields (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
+2 shields (forest) <--- growth bonus
---
+4 food, +8 shields


Total: +2 citizens, +28 shields
Not enough!

(Edit: Thanks acivguy for pointing out some silly math errors and the 2-shield city tile at size 7!)

Pillaging shouldn't be underestimated, especially when it's strategic resources that are being uncoupled. This means that a resource within six tiles of the border is within range, even at the start of a war. If the UU can survive one turn in enemy territory, there is virtaully no resource that couldn't be uncoupled, provided the UU started from the appropriate jumping-off point.

There is potentially a lot to be said for a unit that can strike six squares deep, as the AI doesn't consider that a "danger" zone. Never mind workers - most of the interior cities will lack "4" defenders, even if the AI has researched nationalism, as interior upgrades always take a while. In effect, you will be constantly surprising the AI with the UU, and surprise for the AI often means paralysis. A few UUs deep in the AI interior ought to have the heads of its military units spinning.

In addition, if "New World"- type exploration proves to be part of the game, then the UU's ability to zip through the black, even through jungle, could also be huge in terms of securing resources.

Dave, that's really helpful. I'm looking forward to the completion of that article before next Sunday!

The hill to the west looks to be on a peninsula (north of that hill looks like water, not tundra). To the east of the eastern hill looks like possibly grassland (although they may be hills), so I would send my worker to the hill or eastern floodplain to check it out.

Well, Since I love building my city on top of the hill, I will definitely move my worker East and move my settler NE; my first city is going to be on top of the NE hill and my second city will be on the West hill as seen in the starting possition. I'm sure the second hill (2 square West) is right next to the sea; therefore, it will be my primary port for building up as many sucide galleys as possible (yes, this will be my first game using the sucide galley tactic). Even though there are 10 rivals, my guess is that at least half of them couldn't communicate with the other half until they discover Navigation; therefore, with the sucide galley tactic, I will be able to control all trade transactions between all the major trading groups (because my guess is that there will be at least two major continents in this game). Personally, I don't think any of us going to have much of a problem surviving until the end of the Middle Age because I have a feeling that Cracker is already making sure that we all have a chance to try out our special UU.:)

Yndy: Just got back in town and have only a few minute here so I can't really do a summary on that long trading thread yet.:(

I think I shall move - away. :)

To get to DaveMcW's size 5 city is going to take 20 turns, if we go all out for population growth. Which means we'd only have about 30 shields accumulated towards a granary, so unless there's a LOT of forests to cut down, that seems bad.

None of the local tiles, even when improved, gives more than net +1 combined food/shields. To accumulate the 60 shields for the granary and 80 food to grow to population 4 is going to take forever. Using the three visible flood plains to give +3, +4 then +5 food is going to take 7 turns from size1-2, 5 from 2-3 and 4 from 3-4. Assume another 4 from 4-5, that's 20 turns. And all we've gathered in shields is the city centre tile 1 per turn, plus one extra from an irrigated plains while growing from 4-5 (I assumed working 3 flood plains and one plains). We still need another 36 or so shields - let's assume there are 3 forests or mined plains available too, and just before growing to size 5 we'll work 3 forests/mines and one flood plain. That's 7 shields per turn, while we stand still on food. That's another 5 or 6 turns. So I don't see how we can get the granary up and running before turn 26, without sacrificing the population. (either whipping OR using the forests/mines earlier). Add in the 6 or so turns to actually build the settler and that's turn 32. And that's all we've got.

Worse, for me, even if we don't build a granary it's still going to take ages to produce a settler - we need a total of 70 food/shield to get to size 3 and built that settler. The best tile we can work is only +1 net. Luckily the centre gives us 3, but that's still going to be in the 20 turn range before we get a settler out.

I'm wondering if this is another stage in cracker's process of turning us into settler nomads. The last few games have rewarded those who moved a tile, usually. Maybe this is the time for the great trek?

I believe I shall move the settler onto the hill - for a good view. I expect to move again, anyway. But if the hill is nice for surrounding tiles (to the NE) it'll be a decent defensive position for when the AI overruns me!

If that reveals nothing I'll move the worker due West. After that, it'll depend....

I dont think there is really that much of a driving need to move as the floodplains under despotism act like grasslands in terms of food.

Also I think the need to take in account the presence of 10 civs instead of the normal 8 means a cramped game with early expansion crucial to becoming an established empire.

So no mucking about with moving for me unless I my worker reveals some booty from upon that hill.

But then, after accidently pissing of the carthagians and getting crushed in the last game my advice should be taken with a grain of salt.:(

Cracker, a couple of questions if you don't mind divulging more info :)

1) Will the science rate be the setting for a standard map or a large map? (I'm wondering because although the 5000 tiles means a standard map, the 55% setting means a larger landmass than normal for standard, and the number of rivals is correspondingly large.)

2) Will the Open Class have anything extra at the start from pre-popped huts?

1) I wondered what the 5000 tiles meant myself, since all I know is the standard size settings.

2) The wheel and 25g.

Hmm, I made 3 quick experience games settling on floodplains, with nearly the same tiles as in this GOTM. 3 times of 3 my pop died before I even cranked out my first settler!?

Is the disease striking harder on Deity or was my tries just "tough luck"?

To move the first settler more than one step can cost too much...by then your opponents are almost settling their 3rd city already :)

I'm a brave loser on Deity and lose 2 of 3 games, but usually fight to the end...luck and good choices can make you survive sometimes. (read thro some SG games). But this startposition is an "outofcontrol-position" and I will move my worker up on the hill to start with, then as Moonsinger maybe move the settler ontop of it, if the lands are greeener over there.

And just hope the disease strikes someplace else :)

Ah, I just saw this on the info page:

"Good luck and let us pray for your salvation in this game!"

Anyone think we need a prayer? :)

Originally posted by Ribannah
I would like a version with blips but without the letters / smilies.

here you go

(you get the honor of writing the install instructions compatible with getting them stored in the proper place for both the PTW version an Civ3v1.29 version since you made the special request.)

Originally posted by SirPleb
1) Will the science rate be the setting for a standard map or a large map?
The map setting ds for this game are out-of-the-box for tech rate, corruptions, etc. The 5000 tiles map was originally generated from a random map setting using the 100x100 standard world size. All that was shifted was the water ratio and then extra civs were added to hold the land/civ ratio constant.


Originally posted by SirPleb
2) Will the Open Class have anything extra at the start from pre-popped huts?
The open class gets the 25gold + "the wheel"
The conquest class gets 25gold + "the wheel" + 50 extra gold + the other goodies
The predator class gets a rosary and my best wishes. ;)

Urrrrghhh. I think plains/floodplains is my least favorite start position of all. (Not counting the one grassland tile in tundra/mountains/jungle-type starts, of course.) No shields! Takes 10 turns just to get the first exploring warrior out -- eeewww. While meanwhile 10 deity opponents are wandering the map, sending piles of starting units hither and yon, and settling dozens of cities.

Urk.

Renata <----- skeered

Don't like this one bit, but I refuse to chicken out. Even if I have never won on deity before, ever. Going to have to move the settler i think, the hill looks like the best place for a last stand, but i don't think that helps much. This is what we get for complaining about the graphics peeking out of the fog.

Going to have to listen to what my betters are saying and adjust accordingly.

Scared but not terrified...serttech2003

I think I agree with Moonsinger and will be moving to the hill top to settle. This will get what looks like grassland to the NE in the initial radius and hopefully will have addional grassland to the NE beyond the grass we can see. Couple that with floodplains and possibly a cow or wheat under the fog to the NE and we may get a few settler from this city after all.

Possibly the best bet is an early settler pre-granary to find a better settler factory location and use this city as a worker factory, much more manageable with all the floodplains and reasonable shields to maintain a worker factory. If there is any doubt the problems too much food and not enough shields can cause check out LK48.

The last two times I started near floodplains, I was hit by double disease before 3000 BC. If you are planning for an early granery in the capital that is almost like losing 2 settlers to barbarians (provided the disease hits before granery completion). That should be rather unlikely as floodplain disease is rare, but I think Dave's advice on an early settler is a good way to mitigate such a disaster. Judging from the last few GOTMs, information about the start location is quite valuable, so moving the worker onto the nearby hill will probably be worth a wasted worker turn.

The local terrain suggests that we are on the West coast of a landmass. Hot and dry terrain like deserts (floodplains) and plains tends to occur in a band between the equatorial jungle and temperate grasslands, so I would guess that we are just North of a patch of jungle and South of clear grassland and grassland forests (unless cracker pulled another tropical North Pole trick like in GOTM 17 ;) ). Therefore, I would probably scout North and East for future settling terrain provided the Ocean doesn't get in the way.

are you sure building on the hills is a good idea? It's one of the few good sources of shield income,although it would take a bit to get going

This is true but early it will not get worked and mining it that soon may not be the best use of worker turns. By settling on the hill you get a defensive bonuse, may be helpful in Deity, and you get grassland to the NE. There are at least a couple you can see and hopefully more that we can't ;). Maybe a food bonus as well.

Hotrod

P.s. I think Moonsingers reason for settling on hills, I read somewhere. Is to get 2 food from a normally 1 food tile. And the defensive bonuses.

Uhmm, I must have an exceptional monitor. I didn't even need to blow the picture up and I can clearly see wheat two tiles south of the start position. This means it's initially out of range and you'll need to move one tile to reach it. I think the tiles 2 NE and E/NE of the start are grassland and hopefully bonus grassland. That would warrant moving the settler one tile SE to settle on the floodplain. You'll have the wheat, at least one forest, and 2 grassland (potential bg) tiles in the expanded city radius.

I don't have time to post more now. I'll post more of my personal strategy later.

edit: Sorry for the mis-info. After getting a good night's sleep I looked at the picture again and there is no visible wheat two tiles south of the start position.

A floodplains start in a competition game has the potential to be a total disaster. I have seen disease at 3000BC and that is the kiss of death for trying to get a top slot. I am debating between west (at least one grassland) and northeast (at least two grassland). The wheel is only known to Japan at the beginning of the game. If they are not it the game we have a monopoly, military tech that we need to take advantage of. A warrior every turn 10 turns fails to achieve that goal. I want shields, to suicide food. We need ASAP contacts to take advantage of having the wheel.

I'll try to post more later on, but my first impression is that Cracker's opening play website could be very useful here : it describes a floodplains opening in great detail, including pop-rushing and relocating to a hill. I think I'm going to analyze those options to dead before starting...
@DaveMcW & Smirk : why do you think pop-rushing is not an option ??

My scattered thoughts:

Start Position:

The hill to the west looks like it is on a coast to its NW and SW, and probably to the N. But what is west of it? There might be just a little peninsula there. There might be a land bridge to another area.

The land E and NE of the eastern hill looks like grassland.

The tile W,SW from start doesn't seem to be simple plains. I think there's something on it, perhaps forest.

The start position looks rather poor at the outset. It might turn out to be good if there are bonuses in its radius. There are nine tiles which could turn out to be cattle, game, wheat, or BG. But settling seems a harsh way to check them out - if there aren't any bonuses in sight that would result in a tough start indeed. And even if there are bonuses it might be worth a turn to move the settler closer to them.

So I'm going to start by moving the worker NE. That should reveal six of those nine tiles the start position can use, plus five additional ones. And perhaps a better feel for the overall local geography. After that move everything depends on what the worker sees. Settle at the start position if that looks good. Move NE to the hills if that will bring some good tiles further in that direction into range. Possibly even move a second step but that's unlikely. If things look bad everywhere after moving the worker to the hill then I'll gamble and move the settler SW.

Wonders

At Deity there's not much chance of building a wonder in Ancient Times. Especially with 10 rivals - they'll cascade their wonders a fair bit. I suggest not even trying. If you do try to build one then I suggest making sure it is in a city where you can switch it to build Forbidden Palace if it doesn't work.

Wonders which can trigger a Golden Age for us:
Any one of: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's, Smith's, UN, plus any one of Oracle, Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, JS Bach's.
Captured wonders count toward the prerequisites - they count as triggers at the time when you next complete any wonder.

Early research

I think there's no point competing with Deity AIs in very early research. So that leaves three possibilities:
1) Do none at all. I don't plan on this choice.
2) Research Pottery to ensure we get it.
3) Gamble on 40 turn research.

Pottery should be learnable in 15 to 20 turns on this standard size map. I'll go this route if after the opening I decide a Granary is a top priority. And then if I can make a very early trade for Pottery I'll flip to approach (3).

If I decide to start with a settler or two (no early Granary) then I'll go for (3), researching Writing at minimum cost. I think there's roughly a 50/50 chance of learning Writing before the AIs learn it, it seems a worthwhile gamble. If early exploration happens to show that we're isolated on an island then I'd probably abandon this and flip to Pottery after all.

After Writing is known the choices are less clear. There's little point researching Map Making - the AIs emphasize it and they'll get there quicker. It may make sense to gamble on learning CodeOfLaws, Literature, or Philosophy before the AIs in 40 turns. Or to research one of those techs at a higher speed if there's income to support that. It depends on how quickly the AIs are advancing at that time.

Later tech

Remember that you can get tech for less in trades when more of the Civs you know have the tech. So don't pay high prices for recently discovered techs unless A) you really want the tech now for a specific purpose (e.g. Chivalry to do some upgrades and go on the offensive), or B) you can gain back the premium price by trading the new tech to other Civs.

If we're on a continents map, and inter-continent travel is not possible even with the Great Lighthouse (or is possible and by some chance we get the Lighthouse) then suicide galleys could pay off. They are of course a gamble and one which is only possible if we can afford the price of the bet, i.e. can divert some production to galleys. (Pop rushing in low production coastal towns can help with this.) The payoff for first contact on such a map can be very large. (Greebley's game on the Moonsinger practice trading thread provides an extreme example - on that map first contact could result in gaining a dozen techs and a few thousand gold.)

In a Deity game it is often important to plan ahead for the "Theory of Evolution slingshot". The way that can work is along these lines:
* You're behind in tech all the way into the Industrial Age.
* You guess when some Civ will learn Scientific Method and start a prebuild of Palace to finish a bit after that. (Or you save a leader for this.)
* You research and/or trade, doing whatever it takes, to get Steam Power, Medicine, Electricity, and finally Scientific Method soon after any Civ discovers it.
* You build Theory Of Evolution while starting research on an expensive tech, get that tech free and another as well. I find that good choices (if you build Theory of Evolution soon after Scientific Method is available) are Atomic Theory and Electronics.
* You trade Atomic Theory for a small fortune, including all tech known to anyone.
* You sit on Electronics for a while, trading it later on. (Because it needs Atomic Theory as a prerequisite, you know none of the AIs will be getting it right away.)
* During this time you research at max, having built up libraries, universities, etc before this date. You now try to stay ahead of the AIs in tech, selling things you learn to keep them drained.

Conquistadors

I haven't played the Spanish before and am not sure what to make of this unit.

One thing seems clear: If we haven't triggered a Golden Age already they could be used for that. They're weak so this will require care - they'll have to find and attack obsolete or weakened units somewhere. It may take more than one Conquistador.

If the right kind of opportunity is available I'm looking forward to warfare with Conquistadors involved. They could make some interesting tactics possible, allowing a smaller invading force than usual to be successful. They could be used to pillage resources, roads, and luxuries. I normally don't focus on those tactics but the Conquistador could make them more useful. Conquistadors might also be used as decoys. Heavy use of them in that capacity might turn out to be so powerful as to feel exploitive. (Or perhaps not :) )

War

It can be helpful in early wars at Deity level to have an ally. Conversely, one of the worst things which can happen is if the other Civs all gang up on you. It isn't necessarily game over but it isn't pretty either. So if you are forced into an early war, consider bribing someone nearby to join your side. As well as improving your immediate position, that reduces the chances of a gang-up against you. Also, if one of your neighbors is involved in an early war with someone else and faring badly, consider joining in against them - that can be the best time to start fighting at Deity.

Miscellaneous

Give in to all early AI demands unless you want a war. If you refuse a demand odds are they'll attack.

I suggest not opening goody huts with a warrior unless the hut is on a tile with a defense bonus. Odds are high of popping barbarians, and on plains or grasslands odds are they'll kill the warrior. Even huts on defense bonus tiles are somewhat risky. If playing with PTW remember that popped barbarians may head for your towns instead of attacking your unit.

One of our advantages as a religious Civ is that temples are cheap, just 30 shields. If you're still in Despotism when you build some outlying towns where waste is noticeable, pop rushing Temples can be a good idea. Religious Civs can build the first 10 shields while the town grows to size 2 and then rush a Temple. This can give some much needed culture at not too great a cost. But I don't generally pop rush Temples in productive core towns. That can make sense if they grow quickly, especially if you find yourself forced to assign entertainers. But generally in a core town you'll gain more production by keeping an extra citizen working than by pop rushing.

Originally posted by cracker
here you go

(you get the honor of writing the install instructions compatible with getting them stored in the proper place for both the PTW version an Civ3v1.29 version since you made the special request.)

Thanks, that is very generous. :)



With floodplains there is always a decent chance of finding some wheat. Since the first move is almost free (it takes the Worker to 3750 BC to irrigate one of them), I'm inclined to move 1 tile southeast, which keeps the potential grasslands within the radius.

It's very risky, but if no better tiles turn up I am considering to primarily build Workers and Settlers early on and let the AI deal with the Barbs, as they did such a good job already on Emperor in GOTM#19.

A Granary is hardly worth the time if the 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities are also on the floodplains and their growth outweighs the benefits of the investment in the capital.

There are many rivals, all of them with extra units, so we're bound to run into some early without having to do much exploring ourselves. So that saves the need to build many units for that task.

It depends on who else is in the game, some of the civs do ignore treaties and attack undefended cities while others don't.

Also, if we're the only ones with Alphabet, a 40-turn research project on Writing may be worth it, and combine nicely with the need to use the luxury slider.

Otoh, Writing costs 320 gold to research, and being Commercial, with the river and a fairly fast growth we might beat that by going maximum science, which would prevent any extortions for money. Tough choice!

But surely there must be something helpful nearby to give us a chance to survive on this map ...

I am considering moving the settler to the NE hill like Moonsinger wrote, the main reason being barb protection. I am considering building one warrior for initial scouting, then a worker, Ribbanah style, then a second warrior for barb protection, then one or two settlers to get the good spots around. Still, if Shillen's monitor confirms there's wheat down south ...
I'm planning to get all the floodplains before I move to shield intensive tiles, so I'll have a rather large capitol, but the extra commerce from the river will help and even with 30% lux tax, I'll still be making a lot of money.
I would take the chance for a Writing min research, an possibly not trade Alphabet to increase my shots. It all depends if there are other civs starting with Alphabet on the map.
I'll go for some suicide galleys but I'm not 100% convinced.

Cracker> Can we have a world map view to see at which part of the map we are in? This is available when loading up the save and affects planning as well.

Cracker,

Which resources_shadows.pcx file is to go with the blips only graphics?

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Well, Since I love building my city on top of the hill, I will definitely move my worker East and move my settler NE; my first city is going to be on top of the NE hill and my second city will be on the West hill as seen in the starting possition.

Just a question from a non expert gamer. Why do you prefer cities on hills? You do not benefit of the mining facility later in the game

hi there
i'm a noob here, but have been watching GotM for quite some time to gather some strategies and experiences. i think it's time for me to participate finally!

well, i'll be moving my settler up onto the hill at first.

here's the map of the visible tiles (plus what we can guess what's under the fog) (rotated 45° clockwise):
CCC??
CHPF?
FPPFP
PP*HG
DLLLG
DLLD?

F=Forrest,L=fLoodplain,P=Plains,H=Hills,G=Grasslan d, C=Coast

if i build the settler on the hill, i lose 1L, 1D, 1P, 1F, 1H, but in exchange i hope to get a few more grassland tiles to the north and east.
of course, if there's a bonus resource near or the hill shows a better spot, i'll change my plans...

if i do start on the hill, my worker could just as well start by roading and irrigating (maybe even mining) that starting tile... allthough, spaniards aren't industrious, that means 3 turns for the road and 6 for mining... possible not that good idea. i'll do that micromanagement calculation when the first city is settled. so a road for the starter...

as for research: i'll be hopelessly behind. i'm a lousy rusher and building strategy doesn't seem to be the solution on diety. so i guess i'll get crushed before reaching the industial ages. i havn't thought about it enough yet, if i wan't to go for pottery first, or immediatly go for a "tradeable" tech like writing or mysticism first and hope to meet an AI with pottery. looks like i'll pump out 4-5 workers in the beginning (for happiness and for discovery).
i didn't get that part with the pre-popped hut, but if we really do get the wheel and are fortunate with horses, maybe some chariots could make recon missions more efficient. can someone explain what is meant with pre-popped?

uhm... so far for speculations. i hope i'll survive long enough... ;)

Originally posted by Ribannah

Also, if we're the only ones with Alphabet, a 40-turn research project on Writing may be worth it, and combine nicely with the need to use the luxury slider.

That would surprise me. Rome was crucial to the early development of Spain and I would imagine Cracker will have placed them somewhere nearby. Rome gets Alphabet and Warrior Code.

I'm sure the game will include close ties to Spanish history, based on recent Cracker-isms. Take a look at the special resources.pcx icons ;).

Originally posted by eventhorizon
can someone explain what is meant with pre-popped?


As stated in by Cracker in http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm20_start_v1_29.shtml

Goody Hut locations for this map game were randomly generated by the Civ3 map generator and then pre-evaluated in an attempt to eliminate that random variable difference between games of different players who other wise play similar games.

The Goody Hut benefits for you as the Human player included one additional technology that we have assigned to be "The Wheel" as well as 25 additional gold units for your treasury. (Players in the Predator Class game do not begin with these two hut benefits.) Note that pre-assignment of these benefits is not meant to imply that it will or will not be important for you to explore your surroundings on the map. These will still be decisions that you will need to make in order to succeed at this game.

In short, it is a mitigation to limit the random effect of the set-up.

Prepoppedd - apparently there were 2 huts near the start, the outcomes of which are given to you to facilitate comparison. If someone gets a settler, he'll have it all that much easier than someone who popped barbs.

I don't generally pop huts as a non-expansionist civ myself, since the reward is usually barbs and if you lose your scouting warrior, you run the risk of missing out on contacts and consequently falling further behind in tech.

I'm as yet unsure of my plans - I may avoid the early granary if there's a neighbour relatively close by, build only 4-5 cities and take all the other cities by force. I hope the 'home' continent is more crowded than the 'new world' continent(s) as I intend to play the Predator class, and if the other continent develops too fast you run the risk of having to slog through Mech Infs and radar towers to conquer them.

Originally posted by Ribannah
With floodplains there is always a decent chance of finding some wheat. Since the first move is almost free (it takes the Worker to 3750 BC to irrigate one of them), I'm inclined to move 1 tile southeast, which keeps the potential grasslands within the radius.


The costs/benefits of the first moves:

1. Worker irrigates flood plain, Settler builds at the start.
3500BC: 2 pop, 1 warrior, 6 food, 2 shields

2. Worker explores the hill and then irrigates flood plain, Settler builds at the start.
3500BC: 2 pop, 1 warrior, 3 food, 1 shield

3. Worker irrigates flood plain, Settler moves one square.
3500BC: 2 pop, 1 warrior, 3 food, 1 shield

4. Worker explores the hill and then irrigates flood plain, Settler moves one square.
3500BC: 2 pop, 1 warrior, 3 food, 1 shield

So if you want to move your worker or settler, you might as well move them both! 3 food and 1 shield is a small amount to gamble on finding better tiles, so I expect lots of people to be moving.


My opening sequence will be:

Move the worker onto the hill.
If a food or shield bonus is found, move the setter towards the bonus resource.
If no bonus is found, move the settler south. There are 9 new squares to the south that are not visible from the hill, so between them and the hill there must be at least one bonus!

Originally posted by CdB
Just a question from a non expert gamer. Why do you prefer cities on hills? You do not benefit of the mining facility later in the game

As a former dairy farmer, hill, mountain, and tundra are usless to me. Such mining facility would devastate my cows. My prioprity has always been to reserve as much food as possible for future growth.:) Of course, the defensive bonus of the hill may come in handy too.:)

Originally posted by Shillen
Uhmm, I must have an exceptional monitor. I didn't even need to blow the picture up and I can clearly see wheat two tiles south of the start position.

Are you sure? My work monitor is pretty good (didn't have any trouble seeing the problems with the resource graphics, for instance), but all I see is the gridline intersection.

Renata

Good Analysis Dave. I was wondering about that statement as well since my simple calculation on moving worker to irrigate immediately gets the exact 20 food on turn 8. Was lazy to do the rest and am glad that someone has done the work =)

It doesn't seem to be quite correct though. You don't get access to the Forest until the capital expands, so you only get that Warrior in 3500 BC if you move the Worker onto the hill first.

Also, if you go irrigating immediately, and don't build a road, you can get to +4 food in 3550 BC, and repeat for +5 food 5 turns later. Or, you can have a Worker built in 3550 BC.

Alternatively, you might want to go fo more shields, and start irrigating the plains of the starting tile to grow slower but make a Settler faster.

So moving the Worker costs, too.

Of course everything changes once we find that special. :)

Edit: Wait, I forgot about the bug in PTW that demands a +3 food in the capital when it grows, so you don't get to use a plains tile in 3550 BC. So if you're playing PTW you can't get the Warrior or Worker in 3550 BC anyway. :(

Originally posted by Ribannah
Which resources_shadows.pcx file is to go with the blips only graphics?
You may use any of the existing shadows files in this set and they will all match up. The shadows file increases the completeness and contrast of the images giving them more of a 3D appearance. It can really help to make them easier to see against many background terrain images particularly if the contrast between the bare icon and the terrain color is less intense.

Yes, I think it is wheat down there to the SSW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm20wheat.jpg

I think I may send my worker there to check it out.
Edit: It is incense, NOT wheat.

Hello!
This is my first post on the forum.
I made the test map with a wheat on tiles SE,SE and S,SE. I think on the tile SE,SE must be the wheat.

If that is a wheat S SW, then would that elminate the thinking of settling on the hill, i think i would want to settle at the start and include the wheat and keep the shields of the hill as well.

Sorry, that's what I get for looking at the picture at 4am. I just woke up from a long sleep and there's no wheat there. :lol: At least on the tile I mentioned. I don't know about what Bamspeedy's pointing at. Phew at least now I know my monitor won't be banned.

I don't see it.

And I thought we were not suppused to see a Wheat under the fog anymore? :confused:

But I was planning on moving the Worker south anyway for the best possible view. If there is wheat s/sw, I' ll probably want to settle in the starting position anyway (keeping the grasslands in the radius), and moving the Worker first keeps that option.

This is original and test screenshot with the wheats.

What about a test screenshot without wheat? To see the difference if any?

Ok, here is my guesses at the surrounding terrain.
It may be best to stay at the start and get everything upon culture border expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm20terrain_guesses.jpg

I'm positive that is wheat to the SW. To the SE, I think that also is wheat, but 2-3 tiny pixels is hard to say for sure. What is to the northeast is the only real question. Bonus grassland, regular grassland, or the base of a mountain/hill?

Edit: There is NOT wheat to the SW, but incense. I will probably move my worker east.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
I'm positive that is wheat to the SW...

Why do you think about wheat to the SW? I made the test shot and it is not like the original.

I personally love the starting location. I absolutely love Flood Plains !!! I can't get enough of them !!!![dance] Desert tiles suck, but run a river through them, then you've got something.

So you get a little disease. It's rare and besides, if my people die becasue of a little cold, then they aren't helping me much anyway. I only need the strong people that want to live and be one of the mighty Spainards.

Mega food can be a very powerful tool in the right hands.

I think I will forgo the Conquest level and go with the Open Class. Just in case i actually do well, I would hate to have those extra bonuses hanging over my head.

Besides, I have been playing a Diety - Spanish game on Continents on a standard map (just a lucky guess on my part) for the past 2 weeks now and I am actually #3 out of the 8. Even though I probably won't catch the leaders, I am doing fairly well for myself and having fun. I figured I would be wiped out eary, but I had to do it sometime.

Some hints I learned, however take them with a grain of salt, since I have not actually won a GOTM yet::mad:

1 - I stayed away from early war. I actually never went to war until 1530 when France attacked me, but by then I was pretty powerful and elimated the threat.

2 - When at war - get everyone bordering your enemy to fight them.

3 - Use the slider bar early. Possibly turn on the govenor to manage moods, becase people get unhappy fast.

4 - I explored a little, just enough to see where my neighbors were and where I needed to put my next cities.

5 - I did do a little sailing to a dark spot on the map and discovered another continent. Very valauble trading Communications.

6 - My main priority on city placement is to get the LUXs. These are extremely important. The more you get the better, even if they are the same one. But get different ones, if you have to make a choice.

7 - Build your cities closer together than you might normally. Normally, meaning, like me, who doesn't usually overlap grids.

8 - Please feel free to add some more tips or point out how wrong my thoughts are. All comments are welcomed.

9 - My favorite fighting units are Cavs with artillery. You can usually fight any of the advanced civs with them, even if they have tanks.

10 - As for my start, it looks good to me right where it is.

Dynamic, did you use the new graphics for your testshot?

Originally posted by Dynamic


Why do you think about wheat to the SW? I made the test shot and it is not like the original.

Now that I think about it, you are right. I did some test, and the wheat would be sticking up too far on the tile for it to be wheat (if using the default graphics). I don't know what it could be. I'm going to do some more tests.

Ok, here it is. Got a duplicate of the start. It is incense on desert.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm20comparison.jpg

EDIT: Hopefully Cracker won't give us that crappy of a start!!! ;)

Great! I still haven't finished my first GOTM (Ottomans) and now I have the prospect of having my *#%! slammed in the door by a deity level game. If it wasn't for the love of the challenge I would just give up and save myself the pain. I have to admit though, these GOTM are much more interesting and challenging than the multiplayer or standard games. Thanks for all the effort. :thumbsup:

I think I will build the city right where the settler starts. I'm going to move my settler SW where it will build a road and irrigate (to get some shields!) and then S to build a road to hook up the incense. At Diety it is hard to keep people happy!

I noticed a key thing missing in these discussions.

Don't forget we have warrior from hut again.
That is an extra unit to move to help decicde the best starting spot.

There is no warrior from a hut. We got a break with The Wheel, instead.

The Goody Hut benefits for you as the Human player included one additional technology that we have assigned to be "The Wheel" as well as 25 additional gold units for your treasury.

Ok, my bad. That answers the no dicussion issue quite well, as I created a phantom unit. :cringe:

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
I'm positive that is wheat to the SW. To the SE, I think that also is wheat, but 2-3 tiny pixels is hard to say for sure.

In light of Bampseedy and DaveMcW 's analysis, I think I will send my worker to the South first to see what is there. Whether or not if there is any wheat in the S+SW tile, I will move my settler SW and build my palace there. Of course, my second and thirth cities will be on top of those two hills as seen at the starting position.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Ok, here it is. Got a duplicate of the start. It is incense on desert.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm20comparison.jpg

Bamspeedy, where did you get that first image? It doesn't look like the official one (look at the forests!):

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm20_start.jpg

I assume it is the 'shadowed' version of his island to show it's identical to the 'official' start position, need to check whether his shafowed picture and the official shadowed picture are pixelwise identical but I assume that is what he tried to show.

(I do wonder where he got the extra unit :-))



[Edit] I can confirm bamspeedy's findings. I tested using a scenario with and without resources, and at 400% zoom the resources in the official screenshot are obviously there:

Wheat: left to right test withouth resource, official screenshot, test with resource

http://www.2at.nl/civ/testzonder.gifhttp://www.2at.nl/civ/official.gifhttp://www.2at.nl/civ/testmet.gif

Incense: same order

http://www.2at.nl/civ/inczonder.gifhttp://www.2at.nl/civ/incoff.gifhttp://www.2at.nl/civ/incmet.gif

Note: Normally I'd prefer to spend half an hour playing rather than half an hour damaging my eyes by peeking under shadows, but I got intrigued by people seeing things that I can't... I made a small program that XOR'd all pixels in different screenshot but the result doesn't seem meaningful - does anyone have an idea of how to compare two screenshots while accepting that they won't be identical due to river, forest behaving differently? The difference in pixel colours of things under the shadow is so small that other variation in plain rendering, river etc. seems to outweigh it...

Note2: The fact that spain is whiteish instead of blue seems to indicate that at least china or america is in play as well, forcing spain away from its favourite colour. Another piece of useless pregame info :-D

Moonsinger,

Do you usually build your cities with just one space between them?

The image looks to be altered with a loss of detail, not sure what this is other than maybe things done to post it (not the 75% sized on which is obviously not an accurate picture) or on purpose. Its hard to say really I don't have the default tiles so can do any comparisons, but it could just be smoke screen cracker has devised so that nothing concrete can be stated here.

It looks like we have at least one incense, and I seem to think I see at least 2 more. Then it also looks like a wheat on one of the flood plains se, se or se, s, then again it also looks kinda like wheat se, e but that is most likely a desert but you never know. One thing that does however rear its head is that insense is very easily identifiable because it really comes out of the shadow. Since we aren't seeing this as clearly, cracker has blurred it on purpose, or it definately is not there.

But on another note, Bamspeedy whats up with your image there seems to be some odd errors in the image, which have no explaination? For instance (This is the tile s, sw from start):


Edit: On further study, the image is littered with these anomolies Bamspeedy. I assume that image is jpg or gif, only gif could potentially maintain the original image colors and quality, but when you combine large sections from other parts you run the risk of having too many colors and thus expending your allowed 256 with gif. Of course jpeg is lossy so has no chance to maintain an image for proper zooming and analysis.

In playing a few practice Deity games with floodplains, I found that I lost a lot of people to disease. I am wary about building a city in the start position because of that.

Perhaps I will move a square west. I will still be on the river and perhaps on the coast. BUT, what I am not sure about is whether disease strikes only if your city is next to the river containing the floodplain (the start position), or if the floodplain is anywhere within the city borders. Does anyone know the answer to that?

Davemcw - I decided to try what you mentioned. for the almost 5 turn factory, thinking the city square gives an extra shield at size 7. How are you getting 10 total shields at size 5 with 2 turn growth?
I am getting
size 5
turn 1)
+3 food flood plains
+2 shield irrigated plains
+1 shield city center
3 shields total
turn 2)
+2 shield irrigated plains
+1 shield city center
+2 shield forest

8 shields total

size 6
turns 1&2)
+2 food flood plains
+4 shields forest
+1 sheild city center
+1 food irrigated plains
20 shields total

turn 3
+2 food flood plains
+4 shields forest
+2 sheild city center (size 7)
+2 food irrigated plains
28 shields total

If we could get those 2 extra shields at size 5 it would work :)

Zagnut I think you only get disease if you are working the floodplain tiles. I set up a city with some floodplains in radius, but not working them (and no city growth). Then just held down space until the AD's with no disease. After switching to the floodplains i quickly got disease.

Originally posted by acivguy
Davemcw - I decided to try what you mentioned. for the almost 5 turn factory, thinking the city square gives an extra shield at size 7. How are you getting 10 total shields at size 5 with 2 turn growth?

You're right! :o :goodjob: I edited my post with the corrections.

Hello, this is my first post! first of all, I would like to say that I am surprised of how deeply admitted all players in this forum are to the game we are talking about.

My aim for this gotm will be to still be found on the map when the game is over. I am not a Civ-Crack(er) and deity level is way too hard for me.

Of course I have some ideas for the game and especially the start. To join in the supernatural "resource-seeing": I believe, after blowing up Crackers pic, there is incense on the tile sw-s and wheat on the tile se-s. This means at the starting posisiton you get access to incense and wheat bonus when the city radius expands (that seems o.k. to me).

I've become familiar with settling in the first turn no matter what the starting position looks like. In my single player games I usually put the worker in the city to let it produce and grow faster.

Making one move with the settler means being one extra turn behind. This is no good idea I think.

Thank you for your advice. I'm looking forward to Sundday ....

My goodness... all this peeking under the shadows, it sounds like reading tea leaves.

However once I got home (yes, I was using my work computer) with my much better computer (an iBook), i must say that there are definately things in the south.

The assessment of an incense and a wheat look convincing.

The question is whether to:

1. still send the worker to the NE hill;
2. build my capital at the start;
3. move the worker south; and/or
4. move the settler south.

For me the issue really is is it worth it to be beside the bonus resources from the time of city creation, or build immediately and capture the resources on turn ten when cultural expansion occurs.

For the mathemeticians out there, is there a substantial bonus to delaying city construction by one turn so as to be beside floodplain wheat and/or desert incense as opposed to immediate city construction under deity?

Great discussion!!

As a commercial civ on Diety, the knowledge of Alphabet, the most expensive first tier Ancient Era Tech, is a tremendous trading advantage, but only if you can make contact with the other civs first. Couple that with knowledge of the Wheel, and the Spanish will be able to obtain nearly any early trade they desire. I'll first check the F10 - Space Race function to see how many other commercial civs there are. If there are several (which is likely), then I know that the clock is ticking. I want warriors out scouting ASAP!!

This makes the hill location to the NE even more appealing. If I move my Settler NE, then I gain visibility over many more squares, I have a more defensible Capital city location and I'm still adjacent to one of the known forest squares. Assuming nothing exciting is uncovered, I'll found Madrid on the hill, and start irrigating the Floodplains just South of Madrid. (May require a 2nd worker move if I choose to scout first.)

Now, to speed my first warrior, I'd start my citizen in the Forest for 3 turns, then move him to the Floodplains. I'll have lost out on 3 food (which is one turn once the Floodplains are irrigated) and 3 commerce. However, I'll build a warrior 6 turns earlier. I'm betting that the extra 6 turns of scouting may mean the difference in making critical early trades with nearby civs. I might repeat, or switch into growth mode once the irrigation is finished.

All the nearby plains will require improvements; this may necessitate an early 2nd worker. These plains spaces are very flexible; typically I'd irrigate them to get the extra food and maintain the production. Because of all the floodplains, I plan to mine some, giving me the same food/shield/commerce ratings as Hills is Despotism, but with half the worker movement cost. Having some plains be irrigated and some mined means a lot of MicroManaging; skills at MM will be needed for this terrain.

I'm planning to research Writing at minimum from the start; I may increase my research as I learn more about the game. With the Spanish starting Techs and the right contacts I should be able to trade for most or all of the first tier techs. If there are no nearby commercial civs, I might actually get Writing first, which should gain me a number of 2nd tier techs, also. I don't plan on building any early wonders; I'd like to make it into the Middle Ages!!

I haven't played as the Spanish, and I'm not sure of the best use for their UU. Resource pillaging sounds quite good; perhaps place several Conquistadors several spaces into enemy territory to pillage resources, cut supply and access roads, harrass workers, defenders, etc; while the main attack force is taking border towns. If the conquistadors get beaten down, they can quickly retreat to friendly territory. I doubt that much of the map will be available to explore by the time they get around, but I could be wrong.

Those are most of my thoughts and plans going in.

If all of you only knew the true level of self control and discipline that it takes to sit back and say nothing during many of these pregame conversations then I think that some of you would have a different perception of the true challenge of the map maker staff role.

The problem becomes that I end up chewing on the back of my finger because I have something to say but I have to wait for someone (or someones) else to arrive at the conclusions and observations that I would like to make. In some ways it is like a huge version of Wheel of Civ Fortune and I have to just wait and see if Vanna, Pat, and the contestant from EastAnywheresville can figure out which letter to turn next if the lights happen to not be giving specific clues.

You all fascinate me!!

I'm thinking I may find some good use for the UU in a counter-offensive role, they should fair reasonably well in attacking knights and other offensive units, and in great number (or lucky retreats) could take out the few defensive units the AI usually moves with. Coupled with their movement, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all countering any AI offensive. However a cost of 70 shields seems a bit extreme, for a explorer/swordsman.
Considering the great length they can move, and the retreat ability, they could also serve as an early strike role, and then a full retreat back to your cities to heal up.


As for exploring, I don't see how this could be possible, unless you play a really fast tech rate and for some reason there are tons of jungles in the underdeveloped continent. Which might happen in diety. Thats a bit of a long shot, and how valuable would it be to even explore a large area of jungles until you can get there and settle it, add to that you have to clear the jungles and then develop the area, all of this near to IA. It would be hard to get that in play to make use of it for any early victory.

Also I'm coming from a history of having never built an explorer, in any normal game. I once built a couple in a game where I started in the modern age, so that aspect of the conquistidor seems pretty worthless IMO. Although a unique and interesting mix at any rate.

Although I didn't even finish the last GOTM (I'm still hoping I can make it before June) I'm gonna enter this discussion which is very enjoyable.:D Some people seem to see things that I don't see :scan: . It is very unlikely for the tile S-SW to be wheat because it probably doesn't have a bordering river. That tile is probably desert and because the green colour to the NE I'm tending to move my settler in that direction: on top of the hill. Question is should I move my worker first or move the settler first so I don't waste a worker turn.

I also wonder if any one ever investigated the disease behaviour when placed near/at floodplains on deity. I also have bad experience with settling on/near floodplains. About two months ago I started a deity game and placed my capitol on floodplains. When I reached pop2 my second citizen died because of disease. Does any one have any idea about the chances of disease when working floodplains on deity?

here as a custom version of the resources pack for Gotm20 with only smiley faces added to the high contrast resource graphics.

Since Smirk requested this personalized version, he gets the honor of writing the install instructions compatible with getting them stored in the proper place for both the PTW version and Civ3v1.29 version just in case anyone else decides that one of the other pre-existing versions does not meet their personal needs for the game.

Originally posted by Bolan Longpants
I also wonder if any one ever investigated the disease behaviour when placed near/at floodplains on deity. I also have bad experience with settling on/near floodplains.

I believe working the tile forces a random check to see if you get disease. The percentage chance is no doubt pretty low, <2% maybe, but if you have 5 or more citizens working flood plains, that could very well be five checks against that 2%. If you settle on a floodplain, then its safe to say you get at least one check every turn.
I have anecdotal evidence where I avoided the use of the floodplains and didn't settle them, and thus never got any deaths, but that doesn't mean it absolutely won't happen. It could be complex enough that if you work an adjacent to flood plains tile you get miniscule percentage chance. And then cases where I haven't worked the flood plains but did settle on them, and got deaths from disease. And finally, cases where I hadn't worked them, but they got worked the turn when growing and I got disease that turn. This final one seems unlikely by pure random chance, but it has happened (as in your case) so there might be more complex behavior involved.


It might not be that hard to test this, use that memory hack modder tool you can simply set the pop to some value, work some number of spaces, and just advance the turn till you get a death. Then continue doing this for some time... Maybe a 100 or 1000 iterations.



On another topic, cracker: My suggestion in the other thread was that I wanted to use those exact smilies and as a background layer, not these tiny ones in a smilies only image. Sorry for the mixup.

Originally posted by Boyd

For the mathemeticians out there, is there a substantial bonus to delaying city construction by one turn so as to be beside floodplain wheat and/or desert incense as opposed to immediate city construction under deity?

Food is king in the beginning and a wheat flood plain gives 4 food without irrigation and 5 food with irrigation. Whereas a normal flood plain gives 2 without irrigation and 3 with. Getting a pop in 5 turn (4 with irrigation) compare with 10 turn (7 with irrigation) matters alot! That one turn move is easily recovered.

Well I am at a disadvantge hear. Even with blowing up the picture I have NO idea what people are seeing that is causing the incense / wheat debate.


It looks like playing with enhanced resource pictures for ages is actually going to hurt me with GOTM. I never learned the art of finding the shadow pictures. :(

Well, here is my take.

TERRIAN

Some analysis about the surronding.

1) The grassland to the ne, ne and ne,e are still unknowns with big potential.
2) Potential floodplain wheat at se, se (given this deity and I am sure cracker would not want us dead, I say it is!)
3) Potential incense s, sw
4) No immediate usable (food + shield) > 2 in starting position.
5) there is water to the west

Personally, I find 1,2,4 more important. Thus, I would like to see if there is indeed bonus grassland and flooadplain wheat nearby or even wheat/cow grassland!?

Further, as mention by earlier, unless you intent to settle immediately, moving the worker one tile will not affect anything. So, I say move the worker to the hill first to confirm (1) there is indedd wheat at se,se. (2) Check for potentials on the grassland. If there is even a bg there, move settler east and settle. Even without the wheat, a bg find is still very much valuable near shield deprive floodplain area.
(Looks like the best move is still moving to the hill)


TECHNOLOGY

As for catching up with research, having alphabet in the beginning has great potential. Depdning on who we meet, we can
(1) Research Writing at 40 turn
(2) Get Masonary and research mathematics
(3) Get Mysticism and research Polytesim
(I do not think granary is a must in a food abudant start thus getting pottery isn't a must as well)

Some forward note. Base on the article AI next research, my calculation shows that AI will not research alphabet until after iron working, horse riding and mysticism are researched. Similarly, maths is lower (afterMap) in the research priority and polytheism is even lower (After Code of Law and maybe after construction and literature).

(1a) If I hold a monopoly to alphabet on my continent. Since AI put a low priority to research alphabet, I will not trade it away. Instead, holding on to it and researching writing will probably be a better approach since the 40 turn gambit has a very good chance of success with that alphabet roadblock.

(1b) If there is no monopoly over alphabet, then it is likely the 40turn gambit will not pay off. In this case, I will go the safer route of maths or polytheism. Trading for Masonary or mysticism will be required for these.

(2) will allow earlier catching up with tech, espcially if you are willing to research at max. Research cost will be 24*8*1.67 ~ 321. That should be around 20+ turns. Potentially, this can net you a trade that gets you map making to catchup with tech for the first time (and losing it again after that of course)

(3) will be the safer long term plan with a 40 turn gambit. This can potentially net you everything necessary in ancient for middle age with the exception of currency and maybe construction. This maybe slightly late for map making trade however.

After the above, the key will be using a sucide galley for the sea merchant middleman trading. At 55% H2O, it may not even be necessary for a sucide galley. Exploring the high seas will be critical for tech catchup.

:lol: I can't help but laugh at crackers post above. Can you tell most people finished GOTM19 early and are waiting with baited breath.

My question is - does it really matter in the long run what is to the SW. Some players will just find away to jump the palace away from the site anyway.

Honestly I still think the key for me is getting to the grassland to the NE and if there is anything to the SW I am sure I will get a settler there in due time. If it is that close why does it matter if it comes on city number 1 or city number 2. Bonus food on flood is great if you have the shields, if not all you have is big city with happiness problems.

Okay all I can do now is wait for the game then all our questions will be answered.

Hotrod

:hmm: Maybe I will play predator just to be different

Originally posted by acivguy
Zagnut I think you only get disease if you are working the floodplain tiles. I set up a city with some floodplains in radius, but not working them (and no city growth). Then just held down space until the AD's with no disease. After switching to the floodplains i quickly got disease.

I've gotten disease when I was neither settled on nor actually working the flood plain tiles in the city radius, but only once. (I *think* on PTW 1.21, but it might have been PTW 1.14.) There may be a likelihood factor depending on how many of the tiles you're working, etc., but I don't think the chance is ever zero if the flood plains are in the radius. (Until whichever tech it is which eliminates the problem, anyway.)

Renata

@Renata: I think it is a problem until sanitation and even then I think the city may need a hospital.

Originally posted by LKendter
It looks like playing with enhanced resource pictures for ages is actually going to hurt me with GOTM. I never learned the art of finding the shadow pictures. :(

LOL, well with my monitor at home (even turned up to maximum brightness/contrast/etc), there's nothing at all visible. So I never had an art to learn. I probably couldn't even have seen the disallowed graphics! Oh well, I guess I'm doomed ....

:p

Renata

You can be hit by disease even if the city is not located on the floodplain. In the practice game I am now playing, I located one square away from the floodplain. After some period of time I irrigated 2 floodplain squares. Shortly thereafter I lost 2 pop points in 2 successive turns to disease. However, that is all that I lost in the game. I am now at 390 BC.

I agree with Qitai that if there is a wheat square then the enhanced production will probably make up for any loss from disease.

Disease will always hit on 2 successive turns. It would almost be easier to take if they took 2 pop point in one shot.

For that matter what happens if the city is at size 2???

Originally posted by Qitai
As for catching up with research, having alphabet in the beginning has great potential. Depdning on who we meet, we can ...

Nice analysis of the research options Qitai, thanks!

For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40716&highlight=Flood+plains

3.2% chance (each turn) for each city that has at least 1 floodplain tile being worked, seems to be the analysis. Yes, disease hits on back-to-back turns, even if on the second turn you take all citizens off of the floodplain tiles. If you are at size 2 when disease hits the first time, you will only lose 1 citizen (unless you gained a citizen on the same turn-like by joining a worker or something), because disease can't hit a size 1 town.

And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

Bamspeedy, where did you get that first image? It doesn't look like the official one (look at the forests!):

You are right.

I got my screenshots mixed up when I had so many paint windows opened up at the same time, trying to compare all the different screenshots, being on the internet and having the editor and PTW all running at the same time! :crazyeye:

But forests often get changed depending on the surrounding terrain and possibly what hemisphere you are in. (in my test case, I was in the far northwest). I think the water (being on an island) changed the forest looks.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Dynamic, did you use the new graphics for your testshot?

No, I didn't use the new graphics.

Just and FYI and a reminder that the new resource graphics will not work properly outside of the Gotm20 game just as other resource graphics will not work properly inside the Gotm20 game.

You must use one of the approved options to play the game with blissful enjoyment of all the designed in game features.

Originally posted by scubagtr
Moonsinger,

Do you usually build your cities with just one space between them?

No, that style usually goes to Bamspeedy. Since it seems to work out so nice for him (because he previously outscored me pretty much at any point of the game), I'm trying to copy his style this time.

Originally posted by Smirk
I'm thinking I may find some good use for the UU in a counter-offensive role, they should fair reasonably well in attacking knights and other offensive units, and in great number (or lucky retreats) could take out the few defensive units the AI usually moves with. Coupled with their movement, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all countering any AI offensive. However a cost of 70 shields seems a bit extreme, for a explorer/swordsman.
Considering the great length they can move, and the retreat ability, they could also serve as an early strike role, and then a full retreat back to your cities to heal up.

By the time we get our UU, I don't think there will be any knights left for us to fight. Since this is a Deity level, if anyone is backward in tech, it's going to be us, not them.;)

My thinking is that if I put my UUs into an army of three at full health, I could move them anywhere inside the AI empire to pillage resources without worrying about the AI attacking them. For some reasons, the army has always been the least attractive target in the AI's point of view.

For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ht=Flood+plains

3.2% chance (each turn) for each city that has at least 1 floodplain tile being worked, seems to be the analysis. Yes, disease hits on back-to-back turns, even if on the second turn you take all citizens off of the floodplain tiles. If you are at size 2 when disease hits the first time, you will only lose 1 citizen (unless you gained a citizen on the same turn-like by joining a worker or something), because disease can't hit a size 1 town.

Somehow I have the feeling disease also depends on difficulty level. I'm playing a PBEM 1.14 game right now and I have four cities on floodplains for a long time. I didn't encounter any diseases yet up until now. Statistically this doesn't make sense unless chances of disease also depends on difficulty level because the game is set up at chieftain. The thread mentioned above doesn't say anything about difficulty level. Why do my citizens become sick when I play deity but are in perfect health during chieftain. :crazyeye:

Originally posted by Qitai
After the above, the key will be using a sucide galley for the sea merchant middleman trading. At 55% H2O, it may not even be necessary for a sucide galley. Exploring the high seas will be critical for tech catchup.

What strategy are you using with suicide galleys? In my last GOTM, I lost 5 galleys in rows to squids or fog before without reaching anything. After, I just stopped because I found it was too costly (production wise) and not rewarding.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

That is definitely not true (at least not for my European 1.14 PTW). I got disease in GOTM#19 even after the discovery of Ecology! (But before having Sanitation.)

Did you attack the fog??!! Fog has 1 defense and is as good as any squid. Why risk? It is probably better to move around them. Cracker isn't that evil to wrapping the entire continent in fog (Maybe he will consider doing that now when he sees this post).
I lost one or two galley to squid too in the last GOTM. But that shouldn't stop you if the stake is numerous free tech advancement and potentially $$.

For sucide galley attempt, I would suggest this.
(1) Don't rush into sucide. Survey the sea first (visually and moving the galley around) and decide a good launching point base on the map structure taking fog into consideration. In the last GOTM, obviously the fog on the east shore is there intentionally - I send the galley west instead. Also, sometimes land maybe connected by sea and you do not even need to sucide.

(2) Be a coward. Fled from squid and wait if you can. The galley is build to make contact or ferry troop, not fight (And for me, galley block/slowdown). Fighting is for frigates/ironclads and later.....

(3) If on the second move of your galley you see a squid, fortified (assuming you are on coast) and pray. Remember to unfortified the next turn if your prayers are heard.

(4) Listen to Sir Pleb. He knows best.

Originally posted by cracker
If all of you only knew the true level of self control and discipline that it takes to sit back and say nothing during many of these pregame conversations then I think that some of you would have a different perception of the true challenge of the map maker staff role.

The problem becomes that I end up chewing on the back of my finger because I have something to say but I have to wait for someone (or someones) else to arrive at the conclusions and observations that I would like to make. In some ways it is like a huge version of Wheel of Civ Fortune and I have to just wait and see if Vanna, Pat, and the contestant from EastAnywheresville can figure out which letter to turn next if the lights happen to not be giving specific clues.

You all fascinate me!!

So far we have not paid any attention to Spain's history or real-world geography.

So first, I expect more than one river.

Second, looking at the hill n/nw, that seems like a landbridge (Gibraltar?) to me between two bodies of water. Who will be at the other side? Lots of Barbarians perhaps (Moors, or Picts posing as Moors)?
There to prevent easy contact?

Edit: or maybe Arabia is already in this game. :)

And who will be our neighbours? I'm counting on Rome, Celts, Carthage, France, England, Vikings. And another continent only reachable with ocean travel where Aztecs, Americans and Iroquois can be found. Or perhaps it IS reachable earlier if we go past Viking land.

Originally posted by Moonsinger
My thinking is that if I put my UUs into an army of three at full health, I could move them anywhere inside the AI empire to pillage resources without worrying about the AI attacking them. For some reasons, the army has always been the least attractive target in the AI's point of view.

That's a great idea. I have tested the AI policy to let armies be in the past (you mentioned it some time ago) and it holds. It seems that the AI will attack only if the chances to win are reasonable. Since armies have lots of hitpoints the AI would rarely attack them when at full strength.

Originally posted by Ribannah
So far we have not paid any attention to Spain's history or real-world geography.

I would not say that last GOTM was really real-world geography. So I would not wander to much in that directions. As said by Cracker the map seemed to have been generated by Civ3 map generator (Goody Hut locations for this map game were randomly generated by the Civ3 map generator).

It was also partially historical (role of the Romans is still a quizz to me in last GOTM) but all civs are linked to Spain looking at history. SO I suspect any bet is good :). To my humble opinion least likely opponents are Japan and to some extend India & China.

As for the role of the Romans in GOTM#19: the were big when the Ottomans were born, then stagnant and surpassed, and allowed to grow again later (as Venice? - hence the maritime focus). Pretty well thought out IMHO.

I would be really neat if we could play the historic role of passing on tech from Rome / Arabia to the new powers France / England (/Germany?). For a profit, of course. :)

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

I find those values pretty suspect, I would expect at least a little variance between two completely separate cases, unless they were very extensive, its still random after all (1). But the test I just ran gets very different results *and* has more tests.

That bug does still exist in PTW 1.21, which was deeply confusing to me when I first started testing this, I got no deaths, but as soon as I would work a jungle I got some as expected. (The first test I ran thru ~200 turns without a single flood plain death using 8 citizens in one city.)


For those mentioning their experience, you could either be talking about *jungle* disease which stays around, or just remembering from before you got engineering. I'm not 100% sure on the engineering part, since I was starting in middle age I don't recall which techs I researched or any at all, but I got no deaths from flood plain disease, none, this is with 8 citizens on the plains and upwards of 200 turns.
Due the the nature of what I am saying, I'll merely state that this is pretty convincing to me, but not truth. If you can create and save a game where you got flood plain disease after MA and/or engineering I'd like to see it. Since the disease kills a turn later you can save any game after you get flood plain disease and as long as you aren't also working jungles it should be easy to interpret.




Note 1
There could be a balancing effect, per civ to not exceed say 3.2%, so over time all disease approaches 3.2%. My tests were independant single turn tests so wouldn't find anything like that.

The time it happened to me, it was a size 2 city (so only one turn of disease). The two citizens had both been pulled off the floodplain tiles for some extra shields, and the city itself was not built on a floodplain. No jungle either in the city radius; I checked, because I was so surprised.

Your results do sound fairly convincing, though, and I don't have a save to prove what happened.

Renata

If we are looking at what might happen to use in a historical content, think about this for a sec.

Spain was once in charge of the greatest navy fleet ever. Something tells me that this might become a factor, only to see if we get crushed once again by the English.:rolleyes: I would love to have a rematch with the Spanish Armada again.

Possibly the Turks/Arabs as suggested before?? They did control the lower half of the Iberian Pennisula once so maybe they are potential neighbors.

Since the Spanish were so influential in conquering the New World, maybe we will experience a new continent with the Aztecs and Iriqous (or possible a differently named Civ). My guess (and only a guess of course:) ) is that these Civs would be well below us in techs, allowing us to either:

1. Trade with them to gain huge amounts of cash and show them what good Christian people we are:D

2. or we could just destroy them without any cause.

That's my intake, any thoughts?

A couple of comments, gripes really.

This game reminds me of one of my chief complaints with Civ3, the fact that there is no "age of sail" in the darn game. Likewise, the Spanish UU, significant in history, may not play any realistic role in the game.

The other thing I hate is the ritual "peer under the fog" exercise, which I had hoped Cracker would eliminate.

Rib and Dislak speak to the history of Spain, yes indeed this would be the perfect game for a fully hand made map enabling us to compete for the Conquista of the New World with the English and French. We won't get that but I do expect some element in the game that will favor those who go to sea and stubbornly press forward in the spirit of Columbus.

Suicide galleys here I come.

Also, we might see some interesting mountain ranges and volcanos again.

I've done a little playing around with the Spanish recently and here is what I found out about the UU. Its a good unit to play "yo-yo the AI" with. Since the AI tends to spread out its cities (at least in my games) more than non-AI players, if you cut enough roads, you can jerk their units around chasing the UU. BUT, if they get caught, by the time you get them (esp on the higher levels) they die pretty quickly. I once cut access to all resources and then lost 13 UU on the next turn as the AI counter attacked, WW kicked in pretty good after that. I never thought of Moonsinger's UU army. THat might be enough to have them surviv the first AI counterattack.

ltcoljt-

I agree without about the whole "age of sail". It just never seems to be stressed that you should build boats at all. I personally would love to just build a huge navy and go around owning everything but that just wouldn't be possible or helpful. Sigh...oh well, such is life.

About the fog thing, I've only attempted the GOTM once and this is my first time browsing the forums so it is nice to see ideas on where to build my first town. From there, i'll probably just hope for survival. I'll probably be just like the real Spanish. Gain some land, lose it all and cling to my tiny penisula, hoping for the best.
:D

I've only played one other GOTM and I didnt really follow the pregame discussion that time. It is really fascinating to see everyones guesses at what lies in the different directions of the starting location.

thinking about the historical aspect of the game, I am wondering if there will be a "new world" somewhere on the map. Some piece of land somewhere with no civs on it but full of resources that we will all race too and fight for control over.

I think for my first city I will move a worker to the sw and see what is there first in hopes that to the S or SW is a good spot for a nice settler factory. My second city will probably be on top of the hillto the east of the starting position.

Originally posted by serttech2003
I never thought of Moonsinger's UU army. THat might be enough to have them surviv the first AI counterattack.

As Yndy and I were saying, the AI wouldn't dare attacking the army unless at least one of its unit (individually) thinks that it can win or that it can at least get the army red-lined. The AI units aren't much of a team player and they are definitely not thinking collectively. Each of their units would think only for itself to determine whether or not to attack or not to attack. As human players, we all know that we can sacrifice one of our units to reduce the army hitpoint so that another unit can go for the kill; therefore, we can destroy the AI army without much of a problem. Too bad the AI doesn't think like that. By keeping our army at full health all the time, our army is safe from the AI counterattack for almost like 'eternity'; therefore, our army will have a great chance of surviving forever.;)

In a way, this technique seems like an exploit because we are exploiting the AI stupidity here. Since there hasn't been any objection from you guys or from Cracker about using this technique, I think I may give it a shot to see what happen.

Hint: In order to beat an adversary of greater power, we must try to think like our adversary. In this case, what would we do if we are the AI?;)

Originally posted by ltcoljt
The other thing I hate is the ritual "peer under the fog" exercise, which I had hoped Cracker would eliminate.
I think we agian need to look at this process from a balanced and informed viewpoint.

Some people really enjoy the puizzle and the hunt. Other people could care less. Both perspectives are allowable and we should not do things that actively diminish one for the benefit of the other.

By presenting this info in the Pre-game discussion we basically give everyone access to the same information and give them a chance to make an informed decision based on the best information available. Some players are much better at this than others and the natural tendency will be to have varying levels of satisfaction with the level to which we as individuals succeed in these areas.

I would like to see us (Lee and ltcoljt) not gripe too much about what people try to see from the pregame views because in the big picture, the careful preconsideration of the opening moves and potential trade offs is probably the number one thing that can help less expereinced players to get a little more out of the game.

Don't obsess about it, but do take some of these observations and comments as a revelation of the diversity of perspectives and skills that you find among your peers. Rest assured that for every player who participates here and uses the information to bolster their opening play choices, there will be at least that many other players who will charge ahead into the fray with a random assortment of play choices the will boggle and amaze you.

This pregame discussion can help you a great deal in the game, but on its own it is a sort of game-withiin-the-game feature that a many players and spectators find fascinating all in a self contained way.

RE: building on the hills...what is the point? I know its a good defensive tactic, but if you let anyone (including barbs) into the CORE of your empire (the capital) you're in trouble anyways! Hill defense bonus won't help you! :))

Originally posted by Romulus
RE: building on the hills...what is the point? I know its a good defensive tactic, but if you let anyone (including barbs) into the CORE of your empire (the capital) you're in trouble anyways! Hill defense bonus won't help you! :))

You're doing very well at Deity level if you can get enough units out early on to head off all incursions by barbs during the first 30 or so turns, when you are likely to have only one or two cities. There's no core then - only a vulnerable frontier. Once you have a core and ring of half a dozen cities or so the AI has pretty much eliminated barbs from the map in my, admittedly limited, experience.

To consider using a Leader on an army of UUs near the end of the Middle Ages or beginning of the Industrial, means that you are so in control of the game that you would not use the Leader for any of the late medieval wonders, save it for the Industrial ones, or use it for an army of cavalry.

If this is the case in your game, then I think using the Leader for a UU army is a great idea. Otherwise, I think it's a waste of a Leader.

Originally posted by ltcoljt
This game reminds me of one of my chief complaints with Civ3, the fact that there is no "age of sail" in the darn game.
Originally posted by Dislak
ltcoljt-

I agree without about the whole "age of sail". It just never seems to be stressed that you should build boats at all. I personally would love to just build a huge navy and go around owning everything but that just wouldn't be possible or helpful. Sigh...oh well, such is life.
ltcoljt + Dislak@ A bit off thread but thought I'd point out this SG to the two boat lovers. THawk's Age of Sail Open Succession Game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53359&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=1) It's an open SG so just grab it, play and post within 24hours.

As far as GOTM20, the problem with this start is all food and no sheilds. I wouldn't want to move to the hill to exaggerate this problem. I also don't want to fall another turn behind the Diety AI by moving. I think the worker should move to a floodplain first so that means E, SE or S. E and S expose the most (5) tiles, while SE only reveals 3. The fog seers indicate that moving S to confirm the presence of a hypothetical wheat and a hypothetical incense would be prudent.

If I were to move the settler it would only be based on our location in the minimap. If we're in the NE corner, I'd move him SW and the worker would irrigate where he stood, then move south to irrigate the floodplain. If we're in the SW corner, then onto the hill like many others. It just depends on which side of the river I want to end my city. The hill defense is nice but it's nicer still to be able to move a defender into the next city in 1 turn. Crossing the river would hurt a quick response.

If there are no bonuses, this looks like a good position to disband the capital and jump it to more productive area after the FP is built. That means, settlers but no granary in the capital.

Txurce - I'm sure that Moonsinger will be in control and more sure that I won't.

Haven't decided yet but i'm either moving my worker NE to the hill or directly south. So many things depend on what is uncovered. i definately would like to move away from the floodplains but from what i hear if you have the floodplains in your radius, and are working it, your up for possible disease. So moving one step away ie. NE isnt a solution. I suppose if i dont find a good reason to move based off what my worker finds, i'll just settle where i am. at least that is my inital reasoning.
Beyond that this will be my first Diety game and i expect to play conquest class.
Good luck everyone.!

One thing I'm sure we can bet on is the Ottomans will be subbing for the Arabs/Berbers in Grenada. Since Grenada wasn't a pure Arab state they are a good a substitute as any.

In addition the Ottomans and Spanish/Austrian Hapsburgs fought the Ottomans and defeated them in the decisive naval battle of Lepanto in 1571. Another reason to include them in this GOTM.

I'm betting they will be to the south of our starting position.

One thing is for sure, they must be destroyed before they get their UU...

My guesses for the 10 civs:

Spain
Ottomans
France
England
Iroquois
Aztecs
Germany
Russia
India
China

I'll really be surprised if there are any ancient civs in the game.

Originally posted by ControlFreak
If we're in the NE corner, ...
As we are probably allowed to cross the dateline, there are no corners in this game, and west or east on the minimap is irrelevant. ;)

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Txurce - I'm sure that Moonsinger will be in control and more sure that I won't.

I'm sure we all will be doing well in this game. To be perfectly honest, I would be worry too if this is a true random map with 10 rivals at Deity level. However, since Cracker is the map creator and we all know that he isn't the type that like to set us up to be slaughtered; therefore, I'm not even a bit worry about this game. I think it will be a glorious month with a long list of players ending their game with "victory".:)

Ribannah, normally I'd agree with the east west thing but Cracker has modded this map to make more land and less water. His maps have had a four corners feel where crossing the dateline was the "longer" way to meet the civs. If just randomly generated, then yes, E or W makes no difference.

Moonsinger - glad you are showing the optimist face today. I think there will be many more losses this month even in the Conquest class than there have been in previous months.

I just love all this.

Seven pages of discussion on what to do with the Spainiards while my poor old Ottomans are still busy attacking Carthage!

I just don't think I am going to be able to join you all this month - too much work.

Good luck.



Seff

Originally posted by Qitai
(3) If on the second move of your galley you see a squid, fortified (assuming you are on coast) and pray. Remember to unfortified the next turn if your prayers are heard.
[/B]

Does fortifying increase defense for ships? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


Does fortifying increase defense for ships? I didn't think so.

The Combat Calculator (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html) says a ship gets +25% if fortified. I've always tried to fortify galleys if threatened, and it seems to improve the odds, but it's hard to tell for sure when a fortified Destroyer can be sunk by a Frigate and the RNG.

I think fortifying ships deactivates them but doesn't change their defense. I concluded that mostly becaues they don't get the little white box around their hitpoint pips, the way land combat units do. (Land noncombat units, like workers, also don't get the box.)

Originally posted by Ribannah

As we are probably allowed to cross the dateline, there are no corners in this game, and west or east on the minimap is irrelevant. ;)

I don't quite agree. The normal map generator seems to always a pangea continent in the middle, and the two (+/-) continents on a continent map left and right with water in the middle and along the edges. So, if cracker based his map on a generated map, we can expect water along the dateline, so left and right does matter.

I mentioned Cracker's Opening Play Sequences (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/gotm8_russ_start.htm) in my first post in the beginning of this thread, but nobody really seems to care much about it. :confused:
Really, if the visions of essence and wheat are correct, this month's opening position is almost 100% compatible with Cracker's example of the Russian floodplains.
(Funny - writing this makes me feel like someone who's standing at the back row of a large crowd shouting "hey folks, look at this !" while everybody's looking the other direction at what's happening on stage).
In Cracker's example the most productive sequence of actions is the moderated pop-rush, starting with :
- mining and roading one plains tile (SW)
- connecting the luxury
- head towards wheat on floodplains, irrigate and road

For this reason I'll probably start by settling directly and then sending my worker in the direction of the goodies.

I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned this approach yet. Am I missing something obvious ?

On a different topic : I'm planning to go for a 100K culture victory (that is, if the AI lets me live long enough). Any insights on how to prioritize temples in this context ? I suppose I'll still want to start with a couple of settlers, but I'm not sure when I should throw in a temple, and whether it's combinable with a granary.

SirPleb's Gotm18 will be a real inspiration this month : I'm planning on spacing cities 3 tiles apart, share developed tiles between them, and build towards my enemy ... or trading partner, or soon-to-be-culturally-persuaded... :)

Have fun everyone !

Originally posted by Ambiorix
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned this approach yet. Am I missing something obvious ?I did. First post after opening announcement.

Since then everbody seems obsessed about JPEG artefacts and disease :)


Ted

Originally posted by Ambiorix
On a different topic : I'm planning to go for a 100K culture victory!

Hi Ambiorix,

100k victories at deity level are difficult to achieve. The AI's are usually quite strong culturally. I played one cultural victory at season 4 of the tournament. Have a look at my write up.

annares has written a short guide how to achieve cultural victories at deity level. you can find that in the tournament thread as well.

For a short summary:
You need to secure a sufficent large territory early on. During this stage, don't concentrate on cultural buildings, play it as going for conquest or domination.
As soon as you think your territory is large enough, build ICS style outside your two productive centers and buy temples, libraries and cathredals since they are cheap for religious civs.
Be aware of possible UN votes. Either build it yourself or make sure that the civ which build it is at war with most of the others to prevent a vote.

Good luck

If I don't have the fastest 100k victory in gotm19, I will try it in gotm 20 as well

best regards,

Ronald

Just as a distraction (and practice) for the people who can't wait until sunday or would like some opoprtunity to practice crackers opening moves...

I was making a balanced multiplayer scenario with an emphasis on naval action and exploration, so I thought it should blend in nicely with what everyone is expecting of this GOTM; so I decided to recreate the starting position so it would double as a scenario test and practice for GOTM20.

Attached are the .bix file and .sav (for the "GOTM experience"). It should be compatible with default installation+squids, but I'm not cracker so it might well break. If so, please mail or pm me and I'll try and fix it

[.bix] (http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0090797/antigoon20_scenario.zip)
[.sav] (http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0090797/antigoon20_save.zip)

Note: ocean is impassable, sea trade is delayed until magnetism/navigation and great lighthouse effect is replaced by harbor in every city... good luck!

Note2: Cracker: I was doubting whether I shoud post this to completed scenarios or here, but as it kind of mimicks the starting position I thought it might be nice to post it here, if I'm mistaken please correct me...

[edit: btw, I see some people 'attaching' files, but I can't find an option that does that anywhere. Is that forum-specific?]

For maximum culture accumulation, try to finish cultural buildings before 750AD, because then you'll be getting double culture points (for 1000 years old) in the "short turns" (1-2 years) that start in 1750AD.

Originally posted by TedJackson
Since then everbody seems obsessed about JPEG artefacts and disease :)

Correction: Not everbody were obsessed about JPEG artefacts and disease.;)

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


Does fortifying increase defense for ships? I didn't think so.

Not Sure. Did not test it extensively but no harm trying. Would appreciate if someone test it out (Aeson?). If the boat is in danger of sinking, I wouldn't care moving one more square usually.

As this will be my first attempt at anything higher than Regent, and I fully attempt to be stomped, I will be playing in Conquest class. This will give me two workers and two settlers, so I can explore both to the NE AND to the S.

Nyah!

Originally posted by Leovigild
As this will be my first attempt at anything higher than Regent, and I fully attempt to be stomped, I will be playing in Conquest class. This will give me two workers and two settlers, so I can explore both to the NE AND to the S.

Nyah!

Don't forget that the treasure chests that you start out with can be moved. They are worth 10 shields, so can be replaced in the same times as it would take to build a warrior or worker and don't decrease pop like a settler or a worker would. I'm doing the Conquest version too, and those chests will be my first moves.

Oh, since I'm already posting I might as well put this in. I'm sure I'm wrong, as someone else would have noticed it before me, but does the tile directly N of the starting location look a little odd to anyone else? I've probably just managed to delude myself, but it looks a little like the "plains" pixels have been extended into the "tree" area. Someone tell me I'm imagining it, because it's starting to bug me. I mean, I can only think of one reason for cracker to cover something on that tile up, and that is to hide something that some people would have and others wouldn't. That would make it a horse, which open and conquest players would see but predator class players wouldn't. The problem with this is that cracker could have just taken the picture with the pred class game and not have had to alter the photo.

Somebody just tell me I'm nuts so I can stop staring at that stupid tile. :aargh:

Originally posted by Stone Wolf

Don't forget that the treasure chests that you start out with can be moved. They are worth 10 shields, so can be replaced in the same times as it would take to build a warrior or worker and don't decrease pop like a settler or a worker would. I'm doing the Conquest version too, and those chests will be my first moves.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't get the impression that treasure chests could be built. You just get three (amounting to 30 shields production).

What to use them on is a good question. It's tempting to sink them into a granary, but that may be a bad choice. Two will give you a temple in your second city leading to early culture expansion.

Any other ideas?

Ah, I should have explained better. I just meant that they could be used for very early explotation ( starting city locations) instead of a worker or warrior. If you reveal the map with them you can move your workers and settlers where you want them directly. I mentioned cost because if one is lost to another civ it's as easy to replace them as a warrior, and a warrior will take time to build. The chests are there right away. I still wouldn't move them any more than I had to to find the two initial city locations though, as they are completely defenseless.

Well, after pondering the opening position for a bit (too long actually) I have decided to move the settler to the adjacent hill and found my capital there. I will work the starting square.

Here are my reasons. I welcome everyone to shoot them down. I might learn something.

1.Moves me away from what I expect is my western coastline, thereby giving me a little more elbow room to place towns to the west. Nothing worse than losing a chunk of your "corruption free zone" to the sea.
2.Gives me a defensible town site due west, on the same side of the river, that might have fish or whale resources that would have probably been blown off if I settled in the original position. This town site will not encroach on my capital's 21-tile perma-radius, and will serve well as a service city for building both land and naval units without the need to build a full range of city improvements there.
3.Saves two worker moves. It's very likely that if I move the worker to the hilltop first, I would end up moving the settler there anyway. Less wasted moves.
4.Increased defensive strength for my capital.
5.Possibility of bringing shielded grassland or bonus resources into my immediate radius to help with the low shield potential of the original starting location.
6.Increases the possibility of turning the capital into a settler factory.

Of course if that body of water is a lake - I blew it. But we pays our money and takes our chances.

I'll have one irrigated river plain tile giving 5 units and then one irrigated flood plain giving 5 units plus the 5 from the town center.

2-1-2
3-0-2
2-1-2 =>7-2-6 (+3 food)

If I get two shielded grassland river tiles to go with that

2-2-2
2-2-2=>11-6-10 (+3 food)

and if I am really lucky a flood plain wheat the southeast for the fifth pop point

+4-0-2=>15-6-12 (+5 food)

and that’s good enough for a four turn settler factory producing right at 50 commerce per 4 turns at zero corruption. Yeah, that's my bet and Mister Cracker had better have set it up like that or I'll pout. I'll pout I will.

"Ode to a soggy cracker"

Move the settler to the hill,
Build an extra worker,
One to mine and one to till,
And neither one a shirker.

Get a potter for your fill,
And use the forest proper,
Dip the cracker in the swill,
And toss it in the hopper.

ltcoljt,
(giving the best pre-game advice for #20, trust me)

Of course I'll be playing in the open class and without the treasure chests to build the granary it will take me 4---ever to get it all set up even if I get me terrain wishes granted. :(

Stone Wolf,

Quick, jump up and run to the door. You have lost your mind and it's riding off on that horse you're imagining.

I don't think horse resources appear on forest tiles. Maybe he painted trees atop those plains.

Cracker may think me unbalanced and ill informed but by God here we have solid evidence that the "peering under the fog" ritual has made a poor simple forum user delusional.

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Stone Wolf,

Quick, jump up and run to the door. You have lost your mind and it's riding off on that horse you're imagining.

I don't think horse resources appear on forest tiles. Maybe he painted trees atop those plains.

Cracker may think me unbalanced and ill informed but by God here we have solid evidence that the "peering under the fog" ritual has made a poor simple forum user delusional.

:mwaha: :jump:

That's it. No more Civ3 for me until the next GotM starts. I think I need a break. :rolleyes:

Is there any chance to build the Great Library in a deity game with this many opponents? I managed the pyramids in GotM-19 but now the AI civs only need 240 shields to build a 400 point wonder. I am going to do the Conquest game this time, so if I used one of my settlers to build a city that made nothing but a granary and then the wonder I might be able to do it. Of course, I'd have to do it in my capital if I wanted tiles other than the initial 9 or else build a temple and slow the build time down. I could build the cities very closely so that the wonder city could take advantage of the culture radius of the capital, but that really depends on the terrain. Any ideas?

Ambiorix... well you have pretty much sold me on staying put... I have been giving serious thought to it (see my previous post) but after reviewing Cracker's floodplain demo I see how it can be done and done right (thanks Cracker and Ambiorix).

It's always nice to check out hills so maybe I'll waste a worker turn to see the view and if it's stellar well I'll move but otherwise it'll "home, home on the 'floodplains'"...

thoughts on the worker move in this strategy if it turns up nought anyone?

NB. I'll be playing the "open".

Suppose there's a bonus grassland to the NE/NE or NE/E, and wheat to the SE/SE. Then moving E to build the city looks like a good spot (assuming the flood plain under the city doesn't cause disease, but only worked tiles do). Getting the wheat in the city radius for the first 10 turns is worth +20 net food, which is much more than we give up by moving (2f/1s/4c). Furthermore, we can move, then grow in 5 turns (based on 4 food/turn from the wheat), and then we also can work the bonus grassland for the next 5 turns.

I'm inclined to move the worker S. If I do see wheat, I can carry through on my plan, and the worker can irrigate the wheat asap. If I find nothing, then I'll just settle on the start tile, and irrigate the space my worker is on.

P.S. Why does the hill to the W/NW make it easier to see stuff on the other side of the hill, than if it weren't there??

Stone Wolf, the GL can definitely be built. Start it right away in your second city - maybe even your third - and make sure it's on a river, preferably with good shield potential. If need be, stock the city with workers, although this is a real luxury. Researching it in time is no problem, especially since we start with the alphabet.

But...

...The AI can still beat you to it, no matter what you do. It's a decent roll of the dice, but a serious setback if you miss it. The question is, are you feeling lucky?

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
P.S. Why does the hill to the W/NW make it easier to see stuff on the other side of the hill, than if it weren't there??

From hills you can see 2 tiles in every direction instead of 1 because of the additional height. You can't see over other hills, forests, jungles or mountains, but you will see more tiles than from a flat terrain type. You can also see further over water tiles than land (2 tiles as well). I don't know if that stacks with the altitude bonus, but either way you'll be able to see a good ways into the water and that might tell you if you're seeing ocean or just a small lake.

Stone Wolf: Obviously you're mistaken, because in the start graphic, you can see over the W/NW hill to the other side, whereas you can't see terrain equally far away in other directions, that isn't on the other side of a hill.

This is just an amusing glitch in how the computer determines visibility.

You know... upon further eye strain... what is in the fog to the NW? Something is there...

Edge of a forest?

The symbol for shield?

You can see the edges of the surrounding terrain, which always happens. When I say that hills, etc, block visibility I only mean when you could normally see more than one tile. If you're on a hill and there is a hill SE of you, you won't be able to see the tile SE of the second hill (other than the edge which you can always see). If you have plains to the SW, you will be able to see the whole tile SW of the plains. That gives you two tiles of visibility SW, but only one SE, because of the intervening hill.

On the flip side, mountains and hills are easier to spot than other types of terrain. I mean, in RL you an see mountains in the distance while not being able to see what the terrain is at the base of the mountain. In the game you can see a hill two tiles away even when on flat ground, which is why you can see the hill to the W/NW when you can't see terrain at the exact same distance in other directions. Presumably, then, all the tiles in the first ring you can't see are neither mountains or hills.

Boyd: I think what you're seeing under the NW/NW fog is just the edge of the blue dot on the center of the plains tile there.

My conclusion from this whole thread is that cracker, who knows the answer, should just publish as part of the start-game knowledge, the information about terrain/resources under all of the partially hidden tiles visible at start. That would put everyone on an equal basis: no staring at jpg artifacts, zoomer programs, differences between monitors, etc.

Probabaly just a blue dot, DaviddesJ... I believe you are right.

IMO, we are all on an equal footing as those with better monitors and experience in deciphering the tea leaves share those epiphenies (or edgy guesses).

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
My conclusion from this whole thread is that cracker ... should just publish as part of the start-game knowledge, the information about terrain/resources under all of the partially hidden tiles visible at start.
Rest assured that this will probably not happen based on the statistics that I/We monitor about actual game play from our gizzilions of electronic sources.

In this game format, the mystery and process of discovery have great value to the sense of wonder that should be part of the opening game.

Speculation is good for the soul and we should not loose sight of the fact the good general play concepts will triumph in the long run over the one lucky move.

Ambiorix, since I did not manage to succeed any cultural victory on deity I probably shouldn't make any comments but I just can't keep my mouth shut. I subscribe to everything that Ronald and daviddesJ wrote, just want to add that you should make an estimation of how many cities you will need. The best I've seen is 50 cities About 2K culture each but my advice is to try to get as many as 60-100.
Well you probably knew that but what i really wanted to tell you is that some AI civs build tons of culture and you have to wipe them out to get double the culture of the next competitor. I'll give you my deity training before GOTM 20. It's 570AD. I have about 2500 culture while Babylon is 15 times larger than me at about 32,000 culture. You can only beat that by destroying that civ. TO this end it would be nice if you could 'encourage' the other civs to war between them.

Stone Wolf, I was going to say you can only build the GL with a leader, but if Txurce says otherwise, you might get a chance (i never bothered to tell you the truth). Just remember that the AI usually build the GL around 750BC to 500BC.

You could always black out the edges of the surrounding terrain that we can't see entirely. Unless, of course, you enjoy the speculation as much as I certainly would in your place. ;)

Originally posted by Yndy
Stone Wolf, I was going to say you can only build the GL with a leader, but if Txurce says otherwise, you might get a chance (i never bothered to tell you the truth). Just remember that the AI usually build the GL around 750BC to 500BC.

Heck, 750 BC I can handle. I've seen the AI build the pyramids around 950 BC on Emperor, and I'm worried that if 2 civs are close, they might cascade the Pyramids and the GL even earlier! I'll probably go for it if the terrain is suitable in an inland city, so I can switch to FP if I get beat out and then build a new palace elsewhere. I'd rather go for another wonder, but that might not be possible.

First of all I want to thank AR (Anonomous Reloaders) and their support group. Now I understand how important the support really is. Reading this thread, where ppl analyzes pixels to the left and the right, to see if there are resourses or not....Ah, this makes me dizzy.
What to do, what to do?

IF: I move east I will probably hit bonus grass...at least I hope there is.
But: If there is wheat and incense SW, I'll have to settle there later...

The yearning for reloading will be POWERFUL, but I will win this battle again and make a decision before I move anything....and then stick to it :)

A thought about the horses, if they are close early they can be of a great advantage. Thinking of my playing style here and using the Dirty Dozen for short wars (maybe Dirty Dozen and a half on Deity?) and try to grab land by force. That can ultimately make a big difference...and after all, Deity is not for builders like me...I'm trying to be more offensive and I love the horsemen raid!

If we are lucky enough to have horse in the radius of the first city, that would be GREAT!!!!! Better/faster exploration and barbarian response!! Could potential help a great deal in trading too if it allows us that earlier contact within our own continent.

Following the link Ambiorix provided above, after I read cracker's discussion, I downloaded the test game (Gotm 8) and have been tinkering.

1. By choosing India you of course replicate the cultural attributes of Spain (Religious & commerical)

Almost forgot... switch the settings from monarch to deity!

2. I decided to go with just the six civs but maybe I should do eight as we have ten to compete with...

3. India's set starting place on the map is a floodplain with NO bonus resources in the visible squares (unless you count floodplains)

4. Disband all the extra units before you establish your city

5. Begin...

I'm playing two versions at once... one where I move my worker onto the hill and then move my settler SW along the river... after that I mine the plains and follow cracker's resource extraction model.

In the other version, I settle immediately and get the worker working.

In both versions I'll try some pop rushing... the whole thing is tricky as there is a lot of micromanaging and I bothced one pop rush already (I needed to let the city move a bit past three pop to get the settler on the map right away).

i have found myself uncomfortably close to another civ and barbs... but the goodie huts have been tremendous (okay one warrior bit it but techs and a settler which made up for the botch!)

The other thing to keep in mind is since you are replicating an AI, is that you have a somewhat inflated treasury and no extra tech.

I won't spoil all the fun for those who want to try it... it of course is not a complete replication of our next Gotm, but there are enough similarities...

For a rookie like me, when combined with the discussion and cracker's analysis, it is a good tool.

Thanks Yndy and all others. I've been planning to look at some ongoing and past deity-training games, but haven't gotten round to it yet. Yndy, your deity-training will be very welcome. Hadn't thought of looking in the tournament forum either.

I think financing wars to let other civs fight each other would fit just perfectly in the historical context. :)

I may have used the wrong words. It was a training game for me and not as in the SG forum training games. I started with Celts and went for a domination victory.
Actually I'm in 590AD and still fighting but the game is winnable. Tell me if you want me to upload it.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
Moving E to build the city looks like a good spot (assuming the flood plain under the city doesn't cause disease, but only worked tiles do).

OK, I tried a test game, and my city located on flood plains did get disease, even when I avoided working any other flood plains tiles. So I'm not so keen on building on the flood plains, after all, since it permanently increases my disease chances, for only a tempory benefit.

I don't like any of the choices. Moving the settler onto the hill could be terrible, if there's wheat to the S/SE that is then out of range. Settling in place is almost as bad, if it turns out that there's no wheat to the south, but moving would have reached some bonus grasslands or food resources to the east. So I feel I should move the worker first, to get more information.

Moving the worker onto the hill gets the most information (15 squares, plus fringes), so gives the least risk of a terrible result, but it's unlikely to be the best result, because the worker will waste a move getting to where I really want it.

Moving the worker SE gives the least information (3 squares), but it's likely to be the most important (is there wheat, and where?), and if any wheat is found, then the worker will reach it for irrigation with minimum delay. (If no wheat is found, then the settler will go up onto the hill, and I'll decide what to do the following turn.)

Moving the worker E is a compromise move, which I don't think I like as much as either of the other moves, Although it reveals more squares than SE (5 vs 3), it doesn't give information on the critical S/SW space, which is vital to the decision whether to move onto the hill.

I'm leaning toward moving the worker onto the hill. Of course, what I'll probably really do is wait until I can load the game, and get out my magnifying glass, and see if my vision/mindreading skills are any better with the true game image, without jpeg artifacts.

One last thought for tonight: looking at many random maps, the game rarely puts two different bonus/luxury resources adjacent to one another. It seems to have a built-in bias against that. So if there's incense to the S/SW, then that makes it relatively unlikely that there's wheat S/SE. So maybe just moving the settler onto the hill is ok after all.

Originally posted by Qitai
If we are lucky enough to have horse in the radius of the first city, that would be GREAT!!!!!

I don't think we will be that lucky; however, I believe that there will be some horses near by. Since we already got The Wheel from the beginning, I think the ICS Chariot tactic will work great in this game. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here is the link to that wonderful article:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20422&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
One last thought for tonight: looking at many random maps, the game rarely puts two different bonus/luxury resources adjacent to one another. It seems to have a built-in bias against that. So if there's incense to the S/SW, then that makes it relatively unlikely that there's wheat S/SE. So maybe just moving the settler onto the hill is ok after all.

I think this will probably be my strategy too. First move the worker SE, to confirm that it is indeed incense and not wheat around. When I am certain I won't lose any critical tiles, I'll then move my settler up on the hill ans settle there.

I haven't posted here yet as the discussion is so good and way above my level. But, I have to agree with Moonsinger that horses will be available pretty quick, and chariots could be the way to go. Her link is good, but I prefer this one. (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/japan_campaign/campaign_choices.htm)

I have a feeling that cracker has been waiting for someone to post this link - I might be wrong.

This has been a very interesting discussion, with lots to think about.

As I am new to GOTM and have never played deity before I will be going for the easy game and use some or all of the treasure chests as scouts:D

Even with the bonuses I fully expect to be destroyed quite quickly at this level:cry:

One thing that puzzling me is alot of people as scouring the start for bonus squares just out of range, but Cracker has already said that there are new resource icons (they are available for download). After everything he has said on the topic in other threads does anybody really think they will be visible if you haven't explored the square in question:confused:

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
One last thought for tonight: looking at many random maps, the game rarely puts two different bonus/luxury resources adjacent to one another. It seems to have a built-in bias against that. So if there's incense to the S/SW, then that makes it relatively unlikely that there's wheat S/SE.

I think this is a very good point ... time for more thought!

Actually, the two resources wouldn't be adjacent, but rather one square apart (see bamspeedy's post on page 3 or 4). I don't think the generator has anything against that, and remember Cracker is omnipotent and His ways are ineffable so you never know what's under that fog tile :-)

That is true. Who knows, when the fog clears, we may find the entire staff standing there, laughing at us. :)

Originally posted by Ribannah
That is true. Who knows, when the fog clears, we may find the entire staff standing there, laughing at us. :)

They may not be starding there laughing at us, it's more probable that they will volunteer to join the rank of our workers as in GOTM17.:)

I'm not sure if this is a bit off the topic, but I was playing a Deity level Spanish last night just to try and get the feel for what might happen. And after my capital hit a population of 2, it started yelling about needing entertainment and what not. I had already set luxories (sp?) up so they would be happy but it still happened. Any thoughts on this?

What's your total trade and luxury %?

Originally posted by Dislak
I'm not sure if this is a bit off the topic, but I was playing a Deity level Spanish last night just to try and get the feel for what might happen. And after my capital hit a population of 2, it started yelling about needing entertainment and what not. I had already set luxories (sp?) up so they would be happy but it still happened. Any thoughts on this?
If you just set entertainment to 10% before the growth turn this would not necessarily generate any real entertainment revenue. If your total gross revenue is less than 10 gpt then 10% of it is still zero.

The best time to set the entertainment slider is on the turn when your pop increases. Then you can move the slider to ensure that there are at least as many happy citizens as unhappy ones in all cities. The smiley graphics mods are very helpful when doing this with bigger populations.

Edit:

ControlFreak said the same thing at the same time as me, but much more succinctly.

Note that you need to recheck the slider if you move a garrison unit out of town. I often forget this in the heat of moving a defender to head off a marauding barb.

:wallbash: I...must...remember...to...check...the...sliders.. .at...the...end...of...every...turn :wallbash:

You can also hit trouble if your enemy cuts off a luxury you were relying on or if WW cuts in. But I don't imagine this was the problem at capital pop level 1 going on 2.

Very early on, if your trade is too low, the 10% lux still rounds to 0g. You need to go to 20% lux just to get 1g toward lux.

Same thing happens with science. If you're not making enough gold, the "min science" is actually 20% until you're making more gold.

EDIT: Cross posted with AlanH

Dislak:

I'm sure someone more qaulified than me will answer this but anyway...

At Deity level you get 1 content citizen only. To prevent the need for an entertainer at Pop 2 (assuming you have no happiness improvements or luxuries) you need to move the slider. Sometimes moving the slider by 10% does not increase the total spend on happiness, because early in the game you may not be making enough commerce. You need to move the slider enough to change the citizen you have from content to happy. Sometimes its difficult to tell, so you may like to install the smiley faces graphic. It's pretty good.

I hope this is correct, and I'm sure if it's not then it will be corrected!

Originally posted by TedJackson
I did. First post after opening announcement.

Since then everbody seems obsessed about JPEG artefacts and disease :)


Ted
You did indeed, Ted. And I followed it up and read Cracker's analysis with great care. Thanks for the tip. As I get more experience, I have to go back again to Cracker's articles on the start game. Each subsequent visit reveals more nuggets of wisdom.

Although the GOTM 8 scenario claims to be for 1.21, I found I was able to load it up in Mac version 1.29, after failing in 1.21, so I'll use it for some much-needed practice.

wow, i asked one question and 3 people popped up to answer :) I've never seen a group of people be this nice to newbies. Thanks everyone! :D

Dislak@ I was really hoping we answered your question since all of us cross posted the same response. Isn't the GOTM community great?:goodjob:

Originally posted by Dislak
wow, i asked one question and 3 people popped up to answer :) I've never seen a group of people be this nice to newbies. Thanks everyone! :D
Hey, I'm a newbie myself so I know how you feel. It's great when I think I know the answer to a question instead of asking them all the time. ;)

I will also add that is really refreshing to see everyone help to answer questions and also have some reasonable confidence that the answers will be close to helpful and correct. If you ask the same question in other places you might get 20 replies but over half of them will make the problem worse or more confused. At least here we can have some reasonable confidence that the answers will be on topic and to the point. :thumbsup:

You know, if the AI is just as supportive as the people in this forum, this deity game is going to be no problem.

Originally posted by Ebomb808
You know, if the AI is just as supportive as the people in this forum, this deity game is going to be no problem.

Hey Ebomb!

I think the last diety GOTM had just about as many winners as you have posts. So, best of luck!

:D

No luck required, my CivNet skills destroy any punk deity AI's

Yes, god help us if we're stranded on an island with Persia again.

BTW, I think that GOTM14 was Bamspeedy's base for the Diety Settler Factory article, IIRC.

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Yes, god help us if we're stranded on an island with Persia again.

I did a practice run last night with the spanish, on a random continent map until i got a flood plain start, and got stuck in the middle of a huge continent surrounded by German, French, English, Russian, and Celts, and i had no coastline and bordered all 5 civs. Yikes.

Originally posted by vanatteveldt
Actually, the two resources wouldn't be adjacent, but rather one square apart (see bamspeedy's post on page 3 or 4). I don't think the generator has anything against that, and remember Cracker is omnipotent and His ways are ineffable so you never know what's under that fog tile :-)

The putative incense S/SW is adjacent to a flood plain that's S/SE. Thus I think there's unlikely to be wheat there. The space S/SE is especially important because it's one of the spaces that is in the city radius of the start location but not of the hilltop.

There's also the flood plain that's SE/SE, which some people have observed as having an artifact that might be wheat, and I agree that that space isn't adjacent to the incense. But if the wheat is there, then it doesn't matter too much whether you build the city on the start space or on the hilltop.

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


The putative incense S/SW is adjacent to a flood plain that's S/SE. Thus I think there's unlikely to be wheat there. The space S/S is especially important because it's one of the spaces that is in the city radius of the start location but not of the hilltop.

There's also the flood plain that's SE/SE, which some people have observed as having an artifact that might be wheat, and I agree that that space isn't adjacent to the incense. But if the wheat is there, then it doesn't matter too much whether you build the city on the start space or on the hilltop.

Oh but it does. Moving to the hilltop greatly increases the chance of finding some shielded grassland which is badly needed to use that possible wheat to its best advantage. It appears that for the three mystery tiles to the northeast we will be moving to, we are giving up three tiles that produce only a piddly sum of two shield naturally.

Originally posted by ltcoljt

Moving to the hilltop greatly increases the chance of finding some shielded grassland which is badly needed to use that possible wheat to its best advantage. It appears that for the three mystery tiles to the northeast we will be moving to, we are giving up three tiles that produce only a piddly sum of two shield naturally.

You're giving up five tiles: hill, forest, plains, desert/incense, flood plains. That's 5 to 8 shields, although admittedly on mostly unfavorable terrain.

The desert/incense isn't likely to be worked soon, but effectively it's worth 1+ gold/turn just to have it within your borders, until you can hook it up another way, since the luxury will reduce your need for entertainment.

If there is wheat available, then I don't think, with 3 forests in range of the start location (including one immediately available to work), the grassland/shield is that critical, although it would certainly be nice. It's going to be quite a while before your worker can mine the grassland (assuming you want to irrigate the wheat first, which seems a higher priority, and then perhaps build some roads), and until then it's not significantly better than a forest. Especially since I'm going to want to keep my capital small (to avoid the threat, or minimize the damage, from disease).

On the other hand, if there's no wheat or other bonuses, then getting grassland/shield is pretty important, and there's unlikely to be a higher priority than heading over to improve it. But in that case, moving the worker onto the hill first, and then the settler, does no harm, because the worker is going that way anyway (although roading the start tile and then moving two spaces on turn 4 is also reasonable).

must........ ask .......... question.......... :rolleyes:

How critical is that tile anyway? Isn't the timing (and location, if defense is an issue) of settling your first city more important than going on a "tile hunt"? I'm thinking that my first settler is going on the hill, and my second settler will know where to go to find resources by then. Can't your "settler factory" be the second city you settle? Or is it THAT important on deity (never played deity.... wish it were emperor again.... ;) ).

Thanks for the input!

-- From The Cellar :cooool:

CD22: The problem on diety (if you didn't know already), is that all the AI's start with 2 settlers, so if you delay your settler factory until city 2 or 3, you could be 3-4 cites behind by then and most of the availble land will be gone. Unless you're playing Conquest (like me), you need to get that 2nd settler out ASAP and keep producing them until there isn't any space left.

Originally posted by CellarDweller22

How critical is that tile anyway? Isn't the timing (and location, if defense is an issue) of settling your first city more important than going on a "tile hunt"?

IMHO, if there's wheat around, then getting it in the city radius vs not getting it is a huge difference. Irrigated flood plains/wheat generates a net +3 food/turn. If you get that for "only" 20 turns, until you can push out a settler and get it there, that's 3 extra citizens making stuff for you, for the rest of the game!

Grassland/shield, if mined, gives you 40 shields over the same period, but the 3 citizens will generate a lot more than 40 shields, very quickly.

The other factors are all relatively secondary, compared to the huge benefit of getting a bonus food resource, especially this one. IMHO of course.

As cracker says, playing accurately afterward is still much more decisive than any of this initial decision making. But, I do think that the first move can make quite a significant overall difference, at least in this particular position.

If I remember correctly, no matter what type of tile you found a city on, all the food/shields are the same.

So if it turns out that the square S-SE is an incense/desert square, founding a town there would get the default food/shields (yet no bonus gold), right??

So last night I ran India in a deity Gotm8 on a floodplain with no bonus grassland and silk forests.

Without going into the long details here is a summary of what happened.

Research & Trading: I took the advice of somebody way up the thread to start researching writing (40 turns) right away and then moved on to Code of laws with an eye to trade my way to catching up with the AIs.

Generally it worked as having Alphabet and loads of cash gave me Warrior Code, the Wheel, Bronze Working from japan and Pottery and Masonry from China in 1870 BC. By selling contact with the Chinese to Japan I picked up iron Working and Horse Riding and then since japan could communicate with China I sold of Pottery and masonry for some cash to Japan in 1750BC.

However, I must have sold Alphabet too soon to China as they were able to beat me to Code of Laws (I got it in 975BC).

I still was able to buy philosophy (950BC) and Mysticism (1425BC) from China and after Code of laws I set to work to reasearch the Republic on the off chance that I could beat China to it and trade for more techs.

Trading went down hill from there as a massive China kept wandering through my much smaller India on it way to hack at the Japanese. this and at least one extortion from China led me to ask for a right of passage and i unwisely also entered into an alliance against Japan (1125BC).

Net result was I lost a weaker trade partner and couldn't trade with China as they were so advanced...

Population: Here is where I need some work... I got settlers out and settled cities in 2550, 1550, 1500, 1200 (horses secured) and 1075 BC, but I was way behind in terms of population.

I must really study cracker's pop rushing discussion in Gotm8 more, as I guess I am missing a fundamental with regards to pop rushing settlers.

Production & Food: the analysis of others and of Gotm8 is very useful in our starting position in terms of mining plains first and accessing the floodplains later.

Disease: Although I had two cities on floodplains (including my capital) and I had workers working floodplains, too, I lost no population to disease when I logged out in 800BC. Lucky I guess.

Also, I had made no contact with other Civs and these were securing Wonders probably as a result of GAs (Persia and Babylon) so I don't know if I was really keeping up in the tech race... at least on my continent I was a decent second and given my play I think that was reasonable.

In conclusion, if there are not bonus greener pastures to the northeast and I cannot get a handle on pop rushing settlers I'll be having a tough time. At least I know that I can play a decent reserach trade game though so all might not be lost in that case.

One other thing (mainly for the newbies like me) when I first ran this scenario I had great luck with goodie huts (gold, a settler and a tech with only one barb) at a loss of one warrior. In the example above, i felt emboldened to attempt this again and lost three warriors for 25 gold. Therefore, the previous advice on avoiding except in defnsible position and in force is worth it. The loss of three warriors is too much to take when China is you immediate neighbour.

The plan for me therefore is to scout the hill with the worker and then either settle on the hill if there are bonuses to the northeast and if not to try and make a go at the starting point because much can happen after the first two turns!

Originally posted by denyd
If I remember correctly, no matter what type of tile you found a city on, all the food/shields are the same.

So if it turns out that the square S-SE is an incense/desert square, founding a town there would get the default food/shields (yet no bonus gold), right??

Well, not quite. A city tile has a set food production of two no matter what terrain or resource it has. It also has a minimum shield production of one, though it could be higher if the tile normally has an unworked production of two or more shields.

I don't remember how gold is figured out, though I think each city has a minimum gold production of one or two (including the one from roads). The capital has a min of 4 (I think) though you'll still lose one under despotism. You do get more if you build on a high gold tile. Building on gems, for example, gives the full gems bonus plus the road bonus.

Originally posted by denyd
If I remember correctly, no matter what type of tile you found a city on, all the food/shields are the same.

Not quite. Food in the center is always 2. Shields are the actual shields for the terrain, plus 1 if city or 2 for metro, with a minimum of 1. So a desert town or floodplains town both have 2 food/1 shield, but the desert city will have 2 food/2 shields while the floodplains city would only have 2 food/1 shield.

So if it turns out that the square S-SE is an incense/desert square, founding a town there would get the default food/shields (yet no bonus gold), right??

The capital has a minimum of 4 commerce (minus 1 for despotism), so unless you have a really big bonus resource (like gold or gems), the resource doesn't affect commerce in the center.

I was wondering if anyone would suggest building on the incense. But I think it's clearly not worth 2 turns of moving, plus moving away from the grasslands and some of the floodplains. Bringing more deserts into the city radius isn't exactly a thrilling prospect.

Originally posted by Boyd
[B]Production & Food: the analysis of others and of Gotm8 is very useful in our starting position in terms of mining plains first and accessing the floodplains later.
/B]

I don't see the point in mining the plains when there's a forest right there for you to work if you want. Plus there might be a bonus grassland to the east, which strictly dominates the plains.

The mined plains would be on the river, but so is the forest to the W/SW. (Another disadvantage of building the city on the hill is that you move out of range of the forest with river access---but that may not be significant if you find bonus grasslands.)

Some thoughts about victory conditions:

Diplomatic
I think this will be the easiest goal (not that any will be easy :) )
Ten Deity AIs at the standard map size research rate will drive tech to Fission at a respectable pace even without our help, so any Diplomatic victory should be at a date early enough to get a good score.
Depending on the size of our starting land mass, it could work well for a good score to take out all local Civs, build up that land for happiness, and work toward the UN vote.
A Diplomatic goal could also be the way to shoot for the highest score. Especially if there are some scientific AIs - the research rate could be made very fast indeed.
The main things for the Diplomatic victory of course are:
* Be caught up enough in tech to get Fission before a rival builds the UN.
* Have a prebuild or a leader ready for building the UN.
* Ensure that most of the remaining Civs like you more than they like each other. (And therefore it makes sense to try to completely take out any Civ which you start taking out.)
* [Edit, added this:] An important part of keeping their favor it to avoid breaking many deals and avoid razing many cities of any Civ.

Culture 100K
I think this one is likely to be a bit difficult. It works best when rapid expansion is possible and that's unlikely at Deity. It also depends on whether our starting land mass is large enough for all the towns required. And if not combined with some conquest, Culture 100K can be made harder at Deity by AIs pushing the 50K culture mark.

Domination
Hard to guess, the difficulty of this will of course be affected by geography. E.g. whether our starting land mass is large enough in itself to trigger Domination.

Space
This can be difficult at Deity unless you've gained a clear upper hand over the remaining Civs. If you are not ahead in production and tech this victory can slip away.

Conquest
I suspect this will be a difficult goal on this map because Cracker has designated it as the Predator class goal. (One more reason for us to guess that the map will have land masses separated by ocean - I doubt Cracker would have designated Conquest on a Pangaea map. It even makes me wonder if we may encounter something something special which could make conquest of the last rival more difficult.)

Culture 20K
A difficult goal at Deity, especially if you want a high score. It will be hard to build early wonders and hard to get early leaders, both of which are very desirable for this goal.

Histographic
This would be a milked game for sure at Deity. Hard to reach 2050 without an AI winning unless you have them subdued. So the considerations for it are same as for Conquest I think, except that the score of a late Conquest might be increased by good milking.

I'm not sure yet which goal I'll go for, am considering Diplomatic (shooting for score) and Conquest (to be a Predator :) )

Spaceship should score higher than diplomatic if you get most of the modern techs in 4 turns, especially if none of the scientific civs cough up Fission.

I have been reading all the great advice on this thread avidly and have decided to wade in with my, probably, not so great advice.:crazyeye:
I have competed in the last three Gotms. However, Gotm 20 will be my first QSC and consequently I have been thinking more about my opening sequence of moves. In particular whether or not to found my city at the start location.
There are lots of good reasons why the city should founded at a site other than the start location which have already been pointed out by the great players on this thread.
But there is a good reason for founding at the start position in that it may help to maximise the QSC score in the event that the minimum research gambit is used.
For example, I found my city at the start location I then choose to research writing and literature at minimum research ( 40 turns each ) . In practice games at diety the trading leverage gained by acquiring the second tech (in this case literature) has enabled me to gain most of and sometimes all of the techs required for the middleages. The reason this relates to the QSC is that 1000BC is
the termination date for the QSC and is also 80 turns into the game according to my ,possibly, wonky arithmetic. 80 turns being the time it takes to research the two techs.
If I had chosen to delay founding my first city then I would not get the second tech until after 1000BC if using the min research gambit and consequently not have the tech trading opportuinities in time to boost my QSC score.
Whether this is a valid enough reason to influence the choice of your starting city location ... well I dont know thats up to you.

Here is a minimap of your starting position in the Spanish world of Gotm20:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm20_start_mini.jpg

here are links to minimaps of the last to games for anyone who has a burning urge to compare:

Gotm19-Ottomans minimap (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm19_start_mini.jpg)
Gotm18-Celts minimap (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm18_start_mini.jpg)

:D

So ... a position slightly to the north of the equator.

Perhaps some thick African jungle beyond the Sahara whose edge we can just glimpse to the south, maybe the promise of the rich grasslands and forests of Southern Europe to the West (that hint of green could mean many things), and the dry Iberian plains to the north and east stretching to the rich fishing grounds of the temperate north Atlantic whose beaches we can only just discern if we crank up the zoom ratio and squint.

And lots of room there for the New World just waiting to be visited by the bold and adventurous (i.e. suicidal) Galleys under the leadership of Grand Admiral Peanut.

Or on the other hand, maybe not. But hopefully no tundra for a few tiles north anyway ...

And probably fierce diety class opponents on all sides of us. And all of them just drooling in anticipation of snacking on a tasty Peanut settling right there in the middle of them.

... but we Spanish Peanuts will be tough nuts to crack ... hopefully ... I think ... Si el Dios lo quiere

It's almost the center of world! May be we are placed on the left side of continent and there are other 1 or 2 continets to the west from us.

I'm guessing we're at the Western coast of our continent, and that there is a New World type continent W of us. No real reason for that, other than the fact that we have at least some coastline nearby and looking at a world map. :D

The ordinary randomly generated maps in Civ have jungles and desert along the equator, so my guess is that the grasslands are to be found due north. Now I'm even more convinced of settling on the hill.

I think I'll settle on the hill to the north east. After my shocking GOTM19 I'll need all the defensive bonuses I can get :) I'll send the worker first to see if it's suitable, if not then I'll mine the bugger.

Originally posted by cracker
Here is a minimap of your starting position in the Spanish world of Gotm20:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm20_start_mini.jpg

here are links to minimaps of the last to games for anyone who has a burning urge to compare:

Gotm19-Ottomans minimap (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm19_start_mini.jpg)
Gotm18-Celts minimap (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/gotm18_start_mini.jpg)
Uhm... maybe it's just me, but I wonder why Cracker is also adding last months' starting positions. Is this invitation to compare them just a mockery of the tea leaf readers (no offense guys :) ), or can we actually deduct something from it ? You tell me - one thing's for sure : I'm not expecting the Spanish inquisition...:p (if you're saying 'hugh?' now, read the prediction thread :) ).

Originally posted by samildanach
I have been reading all the great advice on this thread avidly and have decided to wade in with my, probably, not so great advice.:crazyeye:
I have competed in the last three Gotms. However, Gotm 20 will be my first QSC and consequently I have been thinking more about my opening sequence of moves. In particular whether or not to found my city at the start location.
There are lots of good reasons why the city should founded at a site other than the start location which have already been pointed out by the great players on this thread.
But there is a good reason for founding at the start position in that it may help to maximise the QSC score in the event that the minimum research gambit is used.
For example, I found my city at the start location I then choose to research writing and literature at minimum research ( 40 turns each ) . In practice games at diety the trading leverage gained by acquiring the second tech (in this case literature) has enabled me to gain most of and sometimes all of the techs required for the middleages. The reason this relates to the QSC is that 1000BC is
the termination date for the QSC and is also 80 turns into the game according to my ,possibly, wonky arithmetic. 80 turns being the time it takes to research the two techs.
If I had chosen to delay founding my first city then I would not get the second tech until after 1000BC if using the min research gambit and consequently not have the tech trading opportuinities in time to boost my QSC score.
Whether this is a valid enough reason to influence the choice of your starting city location ... well I dont know thats up to you.
Excellent point! I know I'm going for minimum science gambit, and I already stated I probably wouldn't move the settler for other reasons. You've just convinced me.

Thank you Sir Pleb for your assessment of victories (not that I think any are possible for me). I plan to eventually go the diplomatic route. I figure, I'll already be sucking up to not get killed so they should be happy with me.:)

A warning to the min-science players (maybe this is well known): if you want to get Writing in 2150BC (turn 40) with minimum research, you have to be sure to open the science advisor and select Writing, on your first turn. If you just leave no research selection, then the computer will prompt you for a research target between your first and second turns, but that turn (3950BC) then won't count toward the 40-turn total; in 3950BC you'll still have 40 turns to go.

This seems like just a bug to me, but anyway, it's not a problem as long as you know about it.

DaviddesJ@

Thanks for the reminder. I know to set research as soon as a city is founded but I forget 50% of the time.

Deity is going to involve a lot of things before pressing the spacebar. Need to check happiness. Need to check Diplomacy. With this start, we'll need to check we're not wasting food/MM-shields every turn practically. Whew! I hope I can finish by the end of this short month.:scan:

Cracker-

Thanks for the mini-map. In fact, i've blown it up 1200% and I can make out wheat to the south and incense to the north!! ;)

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
A warning to the min-science players (maybe this is well known): if you want to get Writing in 2150BC (turn 40) with minimum research, you have to be sure to open the science advisor and select Writing, on your first turn. If you just leave no research selection, then the computer will prompt you for a research target between your first and second turns, but that turn (3950BC) then won't count toward the 40-turn total; in 3950BC you'll still have 40 turns to go.

This seems like just a bug to me, but anyway, it's not a problem as long as you know about it.

The min research writing gambit is in doubt this game. I have run 3 games up to writing. Twice the French beat me to it. Once it did not matter as I had an extra contact to parlay to tech parity. But only 2 of 3 games worked out.

As for wonders, the combination of civs I am playing with are cascading like crazy. I do not expect to get a shot at the library.

I am playing with these predicted Civs: France, Germany, Vikings, Celts, Carthage, Arabia, English and Rome.

I am not playing with but expect to see: Iroquios, Americans, and Aztecs.

I had a weird dream about this game last night. I saw the Egyptian Empire in just about 7 tiles NE of my starting position, the Japanese Empire was just a few square to the East and Persia was on the South and South West. My Spanish land was so tiny that I had to place most of my cities 2 tiles apart.:( It was really a nightmare! Wave after wave of Egyptian War Chariots, Persian Immortals, and Japanese swordmans were coming toward me from all direction...then I waked up.:cry:

Originally posted by ltcoljt


The min research writing gambit is in doubt this game. I have run 3 games up to writing. Twice the French beat me to it. Once it did not matter as I had an extra contact to parlay to tech parity. But only 2 of 3 games worked out.

As for wonders, the combination of civs I am playing with are cascading like crazy. I do not expect to get a shot at the library.

I'll add my experiments to these.

Four attempts at writing. First game, I met two civs, neither had alphabet, and traded to parity before getting writing first. They went to IronWorking. Second game France sneak attacked me and took my undefended capital.:eek: Playtime 15min.:lol: (Guess I won't be leaving my capital undefended in the GOTM.) Third and fourth time, I had met one and two civs, both beaten to writing by 3 turns.

Never tried any wonders but did have the chinese build the pyramids in 1950BC (presumably a leader).

Other bad things that happened:
Disease struck 2 of the 3 turns that lasted longer than 15min. Both times, it happened during my settler build.

(Note barbs set to raging just in case)Barbs prevented my settler from leaving town until defender could be built. AI had 8-10 cities to my 2.

All these starts were random map looking for floodplain with no BG. (BTW it took me forever to find a start like that. Every map I generated had bonuses, cow or luxuries in the start position. How did Cracker get so lucky?)

This is not going to be pretty. I'm hoping my GOTM19 submission brings be down to 50% so I can use the advantages of CONQUEST.:crazyeye:

Originally posted by Moonsinger
I had a weird dream about this game last night. I saw the Egyptian Empire in just about 7 tiles NE of my starting position, the Japanese Empire was just a few square to the East and Persia was on the South and South West. My Spanish land was so tiny that I had to place most of my cities 2 tiles apart.:( It was really a nightmare! Wave after wave of Egyptian War Chariots, Persian Immortals, and Japanese swordmans were coming toward me from all direction...then I waked up.:cry:

:band:

"Moon Singer"

Moon Singer, wider than a mile,
I'm crossing you in style some day.
Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker,
Wherever you're going I'm going your way.

Two drifters off to see the world.
There's such a lot of world to see.
We're after the same rainbow's end --
Waiting 'round the bend,
My huckleberry friend,
Moon Singer and me.

http://www.geocities.com/lyricalmusings/lyrics/moon_river.htm

Wierd !!! I had the same exact dream !!!!!!:o

A few thoughts:

Tough decision, try to grab as much land as possible in the early game, then back fill the land with cities (takes a while to get those cities up to speed) or pack them in tight early (build a small, but highly productive empire, then use war to expand)?

Is the a game to try an archer or horseman rush to knock of the nearest AI and get an extra chunk of land? :hammer:

If SirPleib looks at the victory options and thinks the easiest is going to be hard, even at conquest, I'm toast. :cry:

Do I have a shot at getting the GLib, if I start a palace in my second city and go full science for Lit. (maybe even save my chests for the wonder)? :hmm:

Is this going to be another deity game, where just being on the map at the end is a 'victory'? :wallbash:

Is ltcoljt going to get stomped into meadow muffins by Moonsingers stampeding cattle :rotfl:

Meadow muffins? Are those the same thing as cow pies?

Ewww!

At the rate the AI built wonders in my practice games I think folks trying to build wonders brick by brick are gonna be crying.

Denyd,

For this game, I am going to build my cities very close together, closer than ever before (for me). I think a tight, well protected, high productive area will be my starting thought.

Of course, once I find out where the other civs are, I will try to settle near them and close them off as best i can.

I have always been one to build non-overlapping or very little overlapping cities, but based on past observations, I will try to pack them in and work the workers beween the cities on the same tiles.

I have nothing to lose, well expect for my 4th GOTM in a row :eek:

Originally posted by ltcoljt
At the rate the AI built wonders in my practice games I think folks trying to build wonders brick by brick are gonna be crying.

I bet there is no way you can build a Great Wonder in a diety level game unless you have a GL. I bet it won't be easy to capture one either.

This will be my first diety game. I'm just hoping to survive...

Originally posted by ltccone


I bet there is no way you can build a Great Wonder in a diety level game unless you have a GL. I bet it won't be easy to capture one either.

This will be my first diety game. I'm just hoping to survive...

I did a little browsing and in the last diety GOTM (#14) could find only one player, the great CB, managed to get an early wonder. It was the pyramids. He did that by generating a great leader. He and Moonsinger appeared to use the same tactics in that game, stockpile warriors and cash to do a mass upgrade to swordsman. Now, in that game they start on a land mass with the Persians only.

Moonsinger has mentioned a chariot gambit this time and it would probably be wise to pay attention to what she says.
She did win the last diety game after all, not to mention all the others.

Pardon if I got the facts wrong re #14. I didn't have time to download the games and really study them.

Edit: to add that in #14 Moonsinger appeared not to have researched at all during the first 80 turns.

Originally posted by denyd
Do I have a shot at getting the GLib, if I start a palace in my second city and go full science for Lit. (maybe even save my chests for the wonder)? :hmm:
Warning: I don't think chest will help wonders. I think they act like disbanded units and I didn't think disbanded units help production on a wonder.

I will definitely NOT try to hem in the AI. That would just make them feel trapped and you know what they say about a cornered animal.

I'm planning a tight or even ICS type build pattern and hoping to get enough resources to be some competition to my nearest neighbor. It is a blessing that we will be able to see the horses from the beginning.

The early archer/horse rush would have two disadvanges, the AI starts with 2 settlers so you at least have to kill two towns at once, and they start with a bunch of extra military.

Based on my practices I learned two things. 1)Getting an explorer going early is very important. 2)Disease kills.

My early strategy will be to sacrifice food for sheilds (work the forests) until my worker has FP (and hopefully a wheat) irrigated. Then switch to all food to get to size 3. Then all sheilds to avoid FP to finish settler. This does two things: gets faster explorer and minimizes the risk of disease at pop 2.

Pop 2 was the worst for disease because you can't see it coming. Disease at pop >= 3 you can at least switch builds and pop rush the remaining extra citizen into a spear/barracks/temple before the second round of disease kills him too. If we get to pop 3 and then stop working the floodplains, the settler will complete fairly quickly, leaving us at pop 1 again and out of danger for disease. For this to work, I don't plan on building barracks or temple until disease strikes. It is also important to get bronze working from a neighbor ASAP so the spear can be pop rushed if disease strikes again.

Mateys! Another Deity level game. The last one set me to shame, and I will Definitely not use the same strategy for this one. I had just begun to have deep thoughts about the power of the Palace Jump and how to pull it off, and I thought that might be a way to get a leg up on the Persians. But on Deity, there just isn't the time to voluntarily destroy your most productive city in order to reduce corruption elsewhere in the empire. The Persians saw my capitol go up in smoke all by itself, and next thing I knew they were moving in like the rent had been cut in half. This time, it will be ruthless civving toward victory. I don't know about the chariot gambit- it's expensive to upgrade those guys compared to swordsmen. And I'm not so sure about moving the settler around before getting the first city. I feel confident that there are some bonus tiles just beyond our vision range, and that the start position won't be so bad. It'll take longer to get that first settler out, big deal, I'll have a few extra warriors, maybe a lucky goody hut, a single pop-rush early on for the first produced settler and Spain will be on it's way. The second city however Must be capable of producing a lot of settlers, probably with the help of workers Joining it frequently from the capitol.
Sorry, I'm thinking as I'm writing. Here's what's going to happen, barring strange circumstances:
Forget the granary. Build a few more warriors than usual, get the Capitol pop up to 4 or 5.
Pop rush the first settler, forget the consequences!
Second city founded with plenty of warrior support. Set it to settler right away, Join workers to it from the capitol to produce at least a few rapid settlers.
Cities 3-5 focus on military. Cross fingers, avoid being attacked too early.
After this, the crystal ball is fuzzy because so little is known about the outside world. This much I do know for sure: If I Abandon my capitol, they'll slaughter me. Etc.

Ok, now I'm scared. I wish I hadn't shot my mouth off earlier in the conquest preview thread. . . Now I wanna run crying back to Cracker and the Conquest Class! "sniff!" Anyhoo, here is what passes for my gameplan: I will settle in spot and research writing at 40. I will trade, and research the techs they're not(I saw a good plan in a reply earlier that sounded good-can't remember who sent it in). I will quickly produce some brutish ambassadors and then try to crank as many cities as I can. I will head north after seeing that starting pos. in the world map. Clearly the best land will be up there. I will try to eliminate at least one neighbor early as I am very warlike. I'll look around for something that fits my style. . . Oops! Did I forget to mention the finger and toe crossing and deals with the devil, etc. etc.???

Just the fingers crossed for now, saving the toes for the 1st,

RocknOats:goodjob:

My plan for this game is very simple: Mininum research, maxium commerce (after all, Spain is a comercial civ). Since we are given the Wheel at the beginning of the game, I have every intention to make good use of it. I will definitely try to build a lot of chariots for later upgrade to knights. My tech trading thread was a good practice in preparing me for this game because I'm going to use trading extensively in order to gain tech parity while saving enough gold for my units upgrade. To win this game, I think I must first win the economic war (bankrupt the AIs first), then lure them into killing each other (when I'm rich, I can pay the AIs into dying for me), then finally I will unlease my knights and cavalries to mop up the wounded civs one at a time. Other than that, I have no other plan except to build a lot of cities very close to each other.

Jove: the idea of the palace jump is that you don't make your capital your "most productive" city; you avoid building stuff there.

Personally, I don't like it for other reasons. Getting a leader to build the Forbidden Palace far away is my hopeful plan.

I'm playing a practice game as Spain/deity near flood plains/wheat/incense and that one is going great. No doubt I'll do worse in the real thing.

Early discovery of Monarchy or Republic will be particularly beneficial in this position as
a/ Being a religious civ, Spain suffers just 1 year of anarchy
b/ With all the flood plains and some hills in the start position, a larger than usual amount of extra food and production will become available to our core cities with a change from despotism,
c/ Under Mon/Rep the bonus wheat flood plains will make 2 turn growth with a granary possible without requiring more than 1 citizen to work the flood plains. This would provide a way of maximizing growth while minimizing the chance of disease.

I will probably aim for Monarchy early as with 10 civs and faster rival expansion it is unlikely that luxuries will be as readily available as in GOTM19, at least not without some blood letting. This research branch may also provide some valuable techs for trading, as the AI does not favor Polytheism.

The Spanish UU is more of a distraction than a serious contender for warfare. With medieval infantry available in this game, I think it is likely that the best opportunity for taking out rivals will lie with the tried and tested warrior to swordsman upgrade in the mid to late ancient era, with the later option of upgrading to MI. Hopefully this will provide enough momentum to wage later wars based on superior production, as we are unlikely to gain a technological lead until late in the game if at all.

The starting location, and the hill to the NE both appear to be strong options for building Madrid. Moving the worker NE first should provide enough information to chose between them. Moving the settler away from the floodplains in order to avoid disease does not seem wise as it throws away the early growth advantage this position offers. I haven't done the math, but my gut feel is that the extra flood plains growth should more than compensate for any losses from disease (especially if the bonus wheat is really there.)

Under PTW the AI tends to have a fondness for sneak attacking poorly defended core cities, without demanding tribute first. It will be a fine line balancing early growth with enough military units to put off rivals from attacking. I'm sure a few players will fall victim to early sackings, I just hope I'm not one of them.

My first few cities will most likely be built within 3 tiles of Madrid to maximise growth from the floodplains, minimize corruption, allow developed tile sharing and provide better defensive unit/military police sharing.

In my practice games with India, I have been researching writing, mathematics, and currency, and getting there first in most cases. (Currency could be switched with polytheism, depending on the civs with which you have contact.) However, given that we also start with the Wheel, there's an argument to be made for researching HBR first, which allows not just for a sure trade, but also for an early horseman rush. One way to do this is to build chariots, then see if your first target has iron before deciding whether to hit them with horses or swords.

Is there any consideration of moving West? You would most likely be on a coastline (good for Harbor and possible fish, not to mention earlier galley-ing) and you'd be nearer the Incense for quicker happy help. There is still enough Forest and Hill to play with, and the worker can run the road toward the grassland for the 2nd city. Just a thought...

Originally posted by Level1
Is there any consideration of moving West? You would most likely be on a coastline (good for Harbor and possible fish, not to mention earlier galley-ing) and you'd be nearer the Incense for quicker happy help. There is still enough Forest and Hill to play with, and the worker can run the road toward the grassland for the 2nd city. Just a thought...

One problem I can see with that is that unless there is a bonus food resource in the initial nine tiles from the tile to the W, you won't have any tiles with a food production of two. Granted, the worker can irrigate quickly, but that's still a few turns gaining only 1 extra food per turn instead of two. I don't know if the more experienced people would think that's a problem, but it worries me. Now, if there is some game in the forest W/SW, or fish in the water, then it would start looking rather good. :)

I whinged before about the disease, when in my 3 tries I got hit all three times before I could build a settler. This annoyed me so much I had to do another research.

I did 10 tries, clicking new game until I got floodplains (not too hard with random settings)
Now I succeeded to build my first settler 7 times and missed out 3 times. Although I got diseased twice when building second settler. Just looking at the first settler, it seems to be very random being close to 50/50 chance.

As said before, just having floodplains in your cityradius seems to trigger the effect, worked or not...but I won't try again to see if that is the fact. We probably have to wish for luck and as I suppose cracker and the team already tested the game, I'm not worried too much about being stricken by disease too early.

Only a day to go, I better keep on working on my lousy mm-skills :) I will need it on deity!

I'm hoping that Cracker had the insight to remove the possibility of disease, which is after all a more significant random element than those huts.

in a fast-paced game, your first city will get used, and burning it down is a rotten loss, DaviddesJ. Maybe the Palace Jump is a viable option at around 1200 if you think you got it under control and can survive that kind of transition. I suppose I wanted to go for it that time just to do it. Sometimes I just screw around with these civs, yknow.
I have a feeling Moonsinger will go to Republic to max commerce. I feel more comfortable with the military police, the support bonus, the happy workers all over the tiles that you get with Monarchy in a depressing Deity game. Anyone done the math on this? Under what conditions is Republic better?
ICS? I think some coastline will modify that. Chariots? It'd be cool to set the first city on a convenient horse... Defense? I never seem to have enough pikemen at Deity. Impaling their guys on fortified pikemen/musketmen is a Blast... Conquest victory in the open format? How quickly can it be done?

Originally posted by Txurce
In my practice games with India, I have been researching writing, mathematics, and currency, and getting there first in most cases. (Currency could be switched with polytheism, depending on the civs with which you have contact.) However, given that we also start with the Wheel, there's an argument to be made for researching HBR first, which allows not just for a sure trade, but also for an early horseman rush. One way to do this is to build chariots, then see if your first target has iron before deciding whether to hit them with horses or swords.

The key for me is having the possibility to recruit another civ should I get into a war.

Jove, monarchy makes some sense if you're going for a domination/conquest victory, although even then, you will need to make some large territorial gains early to compensate for its inefficiency. But if you're not in republic or democracy, I can't imagine how you could generate enough gold or research to win a spaceship game.

Well, I got my tactics figured...

Fruno


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm_divine.jpg

ON the intelligence link, the information for Spain states that the favourite government is Monarchy (least favourite is Despotism).

IME, the information contained therein is useful as some of the Civs perform better on certain types of governments then others.

How realistic is this and how does Spain play on Monarchy as opposed to Republic (other than the obvious standard features)?

@Boyd

That determines (a little of) the AI civs reaction to other civs. It doesn't affect how the tribe plays as the human civ.

(AI spain will be a little more disposed towards other monarchies, and a little less disposed towards despotisms.)

I don't think it should affect us, as a human, playing spain at all.

@fruno:

:lol: :beer: :smoke: :lol:

-- From The Cellar :cooool:

LMAO@Fruno

Damn, that's exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread.:lol:

(The second option I mean)

Originally posted by cracker

1) read the game announcement and get yourself set up to play the game when the save game is released to you.




What do you mean by "setting up yourself to play"?

sfnitro230,

In order to play the GOTM games you need to download and install a set of free graphics packs that will give you access to some of the cool features we use in the game to add character and excitement.

These graphics packs also are what give us the ability to define the game to be played on three different intensity levels and in equivalent version on the Standard Civ3v1.29 as well as PTW.

This sounds like this may be you first GOTM game with us so let me welcome you and make sure you have the helpline email address at gtom@civfanatics.net just in case you need any questions answered to help you setup the game. Just send an email to that address and we will get you fixed right away.

To start the process, go to the game announcemnt and read the description of the game. From there you can choose one of two branches to lead you through the process of setting up the game to play on Civ3v1.29 or in the PTW version of the software. The instructions and procedures are different so make sure you follow the procedure for your software version. If you run into any snags just email the helpline and make sure we know what software version you are try to install and play.

Good luck in the games.

Edit: cracker exercised his moderator detection powers to post first. :lol:

Welcome to the Gotm! :)